Manitoba Hansard — 4 April 1996 (Sitting 12, 36th Legislature, 2nd Session)

36-2-12

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba .• ;�'},+-..-...=� �-... ·.r:-Ji..-=-=-=� DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVI No. 12- 1:30 p.m., Thursday, April4, 1996

Name ASHTON, Steve BARRETI, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH,Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David PALLISTER, Brian, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY Thirty-sixth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Rob lin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River !3!:tt N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

511 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April 4, 1996 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Licensed Practical Nurses Mr. Kevin Lamour eux (Inkster) : Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Theresa Dumas, Adrienne Ballantyne, Don Preston and others praying that the Minister of Health (Mr. McCrae) recognize the value of LPNs and to consider reversing the decision to cut LPNs in Manitoba. Retention of Hogs Single-Desk Selling Mr.

ClifEvans (Interlake) : Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Jeanne tte Giasson, Ben Barkman, Denver Plett and others requesting that the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Enns) consider reversing his decision and retain a system for orderly marketing of hogs in Manitoba under Manitoba Pork. Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Edwin Sigurdson, Dorothy Minish, Joan Price and others requesting that the Minister of Agricultme consider reversing his decision to retain a system for orderly marketing of hogs in Manitoba under Manitoba Pork. Manitoba Telephone System Ms.

Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River) : Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Kevin Makasoff, Stan Lychuk, Mary Lychuk and others requesting that the Premier (Mr. Filmon) not sell off Manitoba Telephone System. READING AND RECEMNG PETITIONS Retention of Hogs Single-Desk Selling Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Madam Speaker: Yes. The Clerk will read. Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the provincial governm ent ann ounced its intention to move to an open marketing system for hogs in Manitoba without consulting producers as it promised during the last election; and

WHEREAS a majority of hog producers support single-desk selling under M�toba Pork, the marketing board; and

WHEREAS the hog industry in Manitoba has doubled under an orderly marketing system; and

WHEREAS processors, who will contribute to Manitoba's value-added industiy have publicly expressed their preference for orderly marketing because it is easier to deal with one agent rather than 2,300 producers. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Mini ster of Agriculture consider reversing his decision and retain a system for orderly marketing of hogs in Manitoba under Manitoba Pork. Licensed Practical Nurses Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux).

It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). It Madam Speaker: Dispense.

512 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 1996 THAT many LPNs have been eliminated from most acute care facilities in Manitoba, including St. Boniface, Seven Oaks, and most recently HSC; and, THAT the LPNs of this province are valuable members of the health care system, providing professional, competent, skilled and cost-effoctive services; and THAT staffing cuts will only result in declining quality of health care and potentially tragic outcomes; and THAT it will not be long before the negative results of this shortcut effort are realized, including higher costs and poorer services.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the Minister of Health to recognize the value ofLPNs and to consider reversing the decision to cut LPNs in Manitoba. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS Potential Serious Flood Situation Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, I have a statement for the House and I have copies. Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to make a statement to all Manitobans this afternoon regarding the potentially serious flooding this spring.

Recent additional heavy snow has raised the potential for serious flooding, especially south of the Trans-Canada Highway. As well, the potential for significant flooding has developed in the southern Interlake. Earlier this afternoon, I released the updated flood outlook. As all members know, spring weather conditions hold the key to the severity of this spring's flood. Recent snowstonns have brought a total of20 to 35 centimetres of snow to many areas of southern Manitoba and the adjacent states.

The information we have received indicates that the runoff will begin somewhat later than usual which favours a rapid melt and untimely spring rainfull. This combination could result in major flooding in southern regions of the province. Based on the long-range weather forecast, runoff is unlikely to begin before mid-April. Peak flows on the Red River are therefore unlikely to occur before mid April or early May. There is still a chance that the melt will be gradual with below-average precipitation. If this weather scenario unfolds, flooding would not be as senous. *

(1335) The most serious flood threat is in the Red River watershed where both snow cover and soil moisture are . much above the average from Grand Forks to Selkirk. Flooding along the Red River is likely to exceed 1974 levels and could reach 1979 levels with a rapid melt and untimely spring rains . Western tributaries of the Red River from the La Salle northward to the Grassmere Drain could experience record high levels with an adverse weather scenario. The flood potential continues to be high on the Pembina River, the Souris River and the lower Assiniboine River.

However, the flood potential is only moderate on the Assiniboine River upstream of Brandon. The flood potential is low in regions of western Manitoba from Riding Mountain north to The Pas. In the Interlake, flooding is likely along the Icelandic River and the Fisher River with normal spring weather. A rapid melt and untimely spring rain of 35 millim etres or so could produce serious flooding similar to that of 1974 and 1979 on these str eams , particularly if ice jams occur. The govermnent is taking all the necessary measures to prepare for the possibility of a major flood.

As my colleagu e the Minister of Governm ent Services (Mr. Pallister) has indicated, preparation is the best defence against flooding. We want to ensure that Manitobans have the information and the resources needed if serious flooding occurs. We will continue to monitor the flood potential very closely, gather all the information available and keep all Manitobans well informed. Major flood control works such as the Red River Floodway, Portage Diversion and Shellmouth Dam will be operated in such a way to prevent or reduce flooding along the Assiniboine River and in the city of Winnipeg.

The governm ent has established three flood liaison offices in the province to handle public inquiries. The offices will provide information to local residents and municipalities and will be available to answ er specific

April4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 513 questions from residents about flood conditions and how fo recasted water levels may aff ect their properties. Liaison offices have been established in Melita, Niv erville and Russell. They will be of great help to local municipalities and communities. The district communication will be important in keeping everyone inf ormed and up to date. At Melita, the phone nwnber is 522-3256. At Niverville, the nwnber is 388 -6480 and at Russell, the phone number is 773-3830.

We have met with many municipal representatives to discuss the flood potential and ensure that emergency plans and resources will be available to assist Manitobans. I am requesting that residents continue to call their municipal offices for assistance in flood fighting such as sandbagging and diking. Natural Resources engineers will be available to advise municipalities on the flood situation as it develops.

An interagency group of 3 0 representatives from aff ected agencies, as well as the deputy ministers from involved departments are continuing to meet on a regular basis to plan fo r any possible flooding in the province. Manitoba Emergency Measures Organization and Natural Resources are continuing to prepare inf ormation for distribution to municipalities. Madam Speaker, I believe that by working together with all Manitobans we are prepared to meet the challenges if the flooding situation develops.

Madam Speaker, I would also like to thank you and would like to present to all members a copy of the latest Red River Floodway brochure which has detailed information regarding the floodway and its benefits of flood protection. I believe this is a very inf ormative piece and would encourage all members to review it. Thank you. *

(1340) Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the Natural Resources minister fo r inf orming the House of the plans that his governm ent has so far in place to deal with what could be a drastic flood situation this spring.

I want to point out though that it is not all dependent on Mother Nature and that we would expect the government to be prepared fo r whatever Mother Nature has to throw at us, unlike last year where I believe the governm ent was caught somewhat flat- fo oted, especially in the area of the Shellmouth Dam which presented many problems that this governm ent fa iled to address. I also want to make sure that the minister is aware that there needs to be some type of liaison in the Interlake area, particularly with the Fairf ord Dam, which I did not see mentioned in the address that he has just given to the House.

I am also concerned with the flooding situation in the north Parkland area and not much mention in the statement about that. I think we need to keep in mind as well the situation that could develop within the city of Winnipeg. I would just like to thank the minister fo r bringing this to our attention, and we look fo rward to co operating with him in minimizing the damage of the flood. Thank you. * * * Bon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice and Attorney General) : Madam Speaker, I would like to table the 1994 Annual Report of the Manitoba Human Rights Commission and the Twenty-third Annual Report of Legal Aid Manitoba, March 31, 1995. I am pleased to table pursuant to The Regulations Act, a copy of each regulation registered with the Registrar of Regulations since regulations were tabled in this House in June of 1995. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery, where we have with us this afternoon three schools.

There are 40 students from St. Maurice School under the direction of Mr. Shaun McCaffrey. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Justice and Attorney-General (Mrs. Vodrey). Also, we have twenty Grade 11 students from Churchill High School under the direction of Mr. Lenzmann . This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member fo r Osborne (Ms. McGiff ord). We have thirty Grade 5 students from Victoria-Albert School under the direction of Ms. Karen Boyd. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member fo r Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes).

51 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 1996 On behalf of all honourable mem bers, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Pharm acare Deductibles Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Madam Speaker, my question is for the First Minister. Yesterday when we tabled the letter from the Manitoba seniors organization and quoted the fact that many seniors fe lt betrayed, we asked the Premier questions about his own election promises.

Since those questions, it has been drawn to our attention by other seniors and other people affected by the drastic cuts in Pharmacare that during the last election campai gn the Conservative Party handed out orange brochures wherein they stated that there is a better way, a Gary Filmon way to deal with Pharmacare, and Pharmacare ded uctibles were promised at $230 per family. Many people feel that this was a promise made to them during the election campaign, and they want to know directly from the Pre mier, why has he broken his word to them during that campaign? * (1 345 ) Hon.

Gary Filmon (Pre mier): Madam Speaker, as I have indicated publicly and as has certainly been cotmnented on, this province has experienced a reduction in transfers of $116 million from Ottawa this fiscal year. That is a very significant reduction in transfer payments from Ottawa, a reduction that obviously has to be dealt with by our government. In making changes such as we have, we have taken great care so that seniors, for instance, are not impacted by the changes in the regular check-ups for seniors to do with their eye care. We have ensured that those over 64 are protected by those changes .

With respect to the changes in Pharmacare, they are done on an ability-to-pay basis, an ability-to-pay basis that I might indicate still treats them better than they would be treated in NDP Saskatchewan. That is the way in which we have tried to choose priorities and, in doing so, we have done so with obvious regard to the fact that those who have the ability to pay will be asked to pay because that is the fairest system that we could bring in.

New Dem ocrats opposite have often argued that things should be done on the basis of income, that those with higher incomes should pay more to the tax system, more to the support of our programs. Well, that is the basis on which we have evaluated the changes that we have made, and that I think is a fair system. Mr. Doer: The promises made to Manitobans last year were well after the fed eral budget. The Premier knows that, Manitobans know that, we know that. The question I ask the Premier is, why is he not keep ing his word?

Why does he have organizations like the Manitoba Seniors Society saying that they fe el betrayed by the Premier? I would like to ask the Premier a further question. He makes a� about $230 per family. He did not say it would be income tested after the election and that there would be some kind of $25 -million cut. The Premier also paid tribute to the sacrifices seniors made to build our province strong and that he will maintain spending for health now and in the future along with his election promise on the deductible for $230. What does he tell the Manitoba seniors about his promise of a deductible of $230? Mr.

Filmon: Madam Speaker, I point out that low income families will be paying even less than $230 deductible for their Pharmacare. The fact of the matter is that this administration, this government spends a greater portion of its budget on health care than any other province in Canada. We are spending virtually 34 percent of all the dollars we spend. That is a greater commitment than any other province in Canada makes to health care.

It is certainly much greater than it was when the New Demoaats were in office here, and it is certainly much greater than that which is being spent by other New Demoaatic administrations such as our neighbours next door. Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, the Premier will know that there is $69 million in the budget in Saskatchewan, compared to somewhat-! think it is $38 million in the budget here in Manitoba. But that is not the question. The question is, why did the Premier promise to

April 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 515 maintain spending in Manitoba after he knew about the federal cuts during the election campaign? He reiterated that in his platform. He reiterated that all the way through the campaign, including the last press release he released in the campaign, and he made a specific promise: The Gary Filmon way is to have a family have a deductible of $230 for Pharmacare. Will we now see the so-called Gary Filmon way, and will he overrule his Minister of Health (Mr.

McCrae) and keep his word to Manitobans that was released right across this province in pamphlets that were placed in individual mailboxes during the election campaign? It is his word; let us see him keep it. Mr. Filmon: Madam Speaker, we are maintaining the greatest commitment to health care of any province in Canada. We spend 34 percent of our budget on health care, higher than any other province.

The member opposite knows full well that there are impacts from reductions of transfers from Ottawa He knows that when you have a reduction of over $1 16 million from one year to the next you have to deal with it as part of living within your means-[interjection] The member for Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) is chirping from his seat. He is one of the best examples, of course, of people with selective memory, Madam Speaker.

He is . the one who was set up by the former Pawley governm ent with a budget of$300,000 of taxpayers' money to do one thing and one thing only, and that was to complain to Ottawa about their transfer payment cuts. That is what he spent his entire time at. In fact, the joke that went around in those days was: How do you know that an airplane has landed in Ottawa with Howard Pawley or Tim Sale aboard, of course, and the answer was that the whining does not end when the engines are turned off. *

(1350) Mr. Tim Sale (Crescen twood): I have never travelled to Ottawa with the former Premier of this province and the minister has no right to put that information- Madam Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honomable member for Crescentwood that if indeed you are standing other than being directly responsible for asking a question, would you please indicate it is on a point of order? Independent Schools Funding Formula Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education, and I want to quote briefly from the government's press release of two days ago.

"Over the next two years," it says, "the province will honor its commitment to bring independent schools per pupil grant support equal to 50 per cent of the average actual public school per pupil operating expenditures, with a 46 per cent level of support in 1996-97." I wonder if the minister could tell the House when this new commitment was made, and will she table a copy of the new agreement she has made on behalf of the people of Manitoba? Bon.

Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training): The member should be aware that some many years ago an agreement was struck with the independent schools in an out-of-court settlement to avoid litigation based upon the remedial order that came out of the Manitoba Schools Question of 18 70. There is a long history there. I think she knows it, but that agreement to eventually raise independent schools to 50 percent of the funding of private schools has been in place for some years. That is not a new thing. Ms.

Friesen: I would like table a document indicating there is a new agreement and that there are dramatically higher levels of funding for private schools. I want to ask the minister again in a responsible and accountable manner to tell the House what the financial implications of this are for Manitoba. Mrs. Mcintosh: I have been on the radio, I have been on television, I have been in groups with people in the last few weeks recounting this very question.

Perhaps the member has not heard the radio or television or news broadcasts or all of those things, but I would be glad to repeat it for her, as I have for all Manitobans.

516 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 1996 The gov ernment of Manitoba, as a result of the out-of cowt settl ement to honour the legal obligations that came from Manitob a's entrance into Conf ederation, will over time raise the amount of money given to independent schools to 50 percent of the cost for private schools, not including capital, of course, because we do not fund buildings, and then once it reaches the 50 percent level, it will remain there . This is not anything new. This has been known fo r some time.

I have been telling people that if the students curr ently regis tered in independent schools came into the public system tomorrow and became fully funded instead of only partly funded students, we would have to raise $8 million overnight, or roughly the equivalent of about fo ur days of interest on the debt that we pay every day, because of the debt they left us, to accommodate them in the public system. *

(1355) Ms. Friesen: Madam Speaker, I am interested to hear the minister deny that there is a new agreement. I want to ask the minister to confirm that what she has done this year in school funding is to take away $75 from every child in the public school system-that is what the minus-two amounts to-and under her new agreement with private schools she will be adding this year alone $260 fo r every child in the private school system. Mrs.

Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, I appreciate that the member philosophically feels that gov ernm ent should only support public schools and that she is willing to have the costs fo r all of Manitoba rise exorbitantly in our tax bill to acc ommodate those parents who now pay user fees fo r the privilege of religious-based schooling. Madam Speaker, 83 or 85 percent of our independent schools are religious-based.

Our Jewish schools, for example, which are in the constituencies of the members opposite, fo r example, have the right because they are independent to observe, to change the school calendar to obse rve their own holy days, those kinds of things. Eighty-five percent of our schools that are independent are like that. Those people pay full taxes, and on top of that, they pay a user fee. Madam Speaker, our indication that we would accommodate this out-of -court settlement in this way is not new. This is known. I do not know why she is implying this is something that is new.

It saves the system great monies ultimately. Independent Schools Funding Formula Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): My question is fo r the Minister of Educa tion. This go vernment claimed to be open and honest in their throne speech. Tuesday's budget shows that they are exactly the opposite. By obscure ref erences and deliberate manipulation, this go vernm ent has tried to hide from the people of Manitoba the fact that they have made a new sweeter-than-ever deal with private school s. My question to the Minister of Education.

Will this Minister of Education immediately release the actual grants provided to private schoo ls, either on a per-pupil basis or actual dollars ? Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Education and Training) : Madam Speaker, we will be going into Estimates very soon, I would imagine. If we want to go through line by line, I do not have everything here with me- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Are the honou rable members ready to assume Question Period? Ms.

Mibychuk: My second question to the Minister of Education: Can the minister confirm that the actual increase to private schoo ls is at least 15 percent this year, with another huge increase next year? Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, just in response to the first question which I did not get an opportunity to answer, I will be pleased to go through line-by-line detailed questions such as she wants in Estimates. In regard to the question she has just asked now- An Honourable Member: They want a list of every school. Mrs.

Mcintosh: Well, they want a list of every school, every student, and he thinks I can do that off the top of

April4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 517 my head. I can tell you that in your constituency you have the Laureate Academy, which is an alternate learning model. I am sorry you do not support them, but I am telling you that if you want a detailed breakdown student by student, we have some 12,000 students in privately funded schools in Manitoba. I do not have those exact figures here. *

(1400) Ms. Mihychuk: My final question to the Minister of Education: Why has this Minister of Education not told Manitobans about the new deal, while the government briefed private schools in February on their new plans? Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Speaker, I was on the radio two weeks ago, I was on the radio three weeks ago, I was talking to the public many days ago and each time I told them exactly what the member has just told me. She is telling me as if it were some secret.

I have been on the radio broadcasting to anybody in Manitoba who would listen, so I do not know what she is referring to or why she is trying to imply there is something sinister here. This has been something that has been clearly expressed to the people of Manitoba publicly via the media. Madam Speaker, I do not know what she is implying, and I have given the answer. Home Care Program Privatiz ation Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, the government has never been able to explain the rationale and policy reasons behind why they are privatizing home care except to have companies like We Care go out and defend this policy. Now we know why. Can the Premier (Mr. Filmon) explain why the 1993 proposal from We Care incorporated to privatize home care is exactly the proposal that has been adopted by this governm ent? Bon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, I know the honourable member showed up at the Seven Oaks Hospital to help discuss the experiment that was conducted there with respect to early discharge for patients and to get patients comfortably in their homes. The evaluation of that particular contract was an extremely positive one from the point of view of the patients as well as the medical profession.

I remember the honourable member that day and how he moved back from his initial position that he was just dead against it but, because he happened to be there in the Seven Oaks Hospital that day, he could not sound quite so negative about it, so he meas ured his words quite carefully. Now he is back on his old track, because I think his union boss friends must have got to him in the meantime. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Speaker, now that the home care wo:rkers have voted over 80 percent to strike, when is the governm ent going to realize the idiocy of its position, its home care, We Care position?

Will they do the right thing for the patients, the right thing for the workers and the right thing for the public of Manitoba and stop this privatization plan that has been foisted upon them by their friends at We Care? Mr. McCrae: I think the more prudent course for anyone who says that they are here to represent the interests of the clients of our home care system would be to be asking one's union boss friends why it is they are conducting votes like that in the first place and asking them what they hope to achieve for vulnerable people in our society by turning their backs on them and withdrawing services. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, if the minister will not listen to the public or the workers or the patients, I would like to table two letters for the minister from patients of home care who have asked the minister not to have- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier ): Second follow-up. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Are you the new Speaker? Mr. Chomiak: Maybe the Premier will answer the question, then, if he is talking from his seat. My question to the Premier or the Minister of Health (Mr.

McCrae): Will they listen to the patients whose two letters I have tabled who have had bad experiences with

518 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April4, 1996 private care, do not want private care and say, keep government home care in the public hands? Will he at least listen to the patients of Manitoba if he will not listen to anyone else but his friends at We Care? Mr. McCrae: I think the honourable member should be reminded about whom it is that he claims to be speaking for when he and his colleagues come into this House. He wants to table in the House letters today from people who have concerns about the private sector.

Does he not recall all the letters he and his colleagues brought forward back in 1992, 1993, 1994 from people complaining about the home care system under the public system that we have here in the province of Manitoba? An Honourable Member: The cuts. Mr. McCrae: The honourable member is talking about cuts. We are serving today, in 1995-96, 26,000 clients as opposed to 23,000 in '88-89, and instead of almost four million units of service in 1988-89, today we are delivering 5. 5 million units of service. This program is growing very, very rapidly and so are the costs associated with it.

The budgets of each and every year demonstrate that. The honourable member cann ot have it both ways, as he so often does. He cannot be critical of the fact that spending has not been going in when it has and say that nothing is being achieved with all that spending and then try to criticize the governm ent for trying to get something for the dollars we are spending. You cannot have it all those ways. Seven Oaks General Hospital Public Consultations Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Minister of Health.

The Urban Health management committee came up with the recommendation that if it in turn becomes reality, we are going to see the Seven Oaks Hospital converted into a geriatric centre. There has been a public uproar not only in the north end of Winnipeg but across the province of Manitoba in terms of the benefits of keeping the Seven Oaks Hospital open as an acute care fucility. In fact, I would ask maybe the Pages to deliver thousands of cards that were sent to us to deliver to the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) and ask the Premier to receive these thousands of cards and put a specific question to the Minister responsible for Health. In a letter that I received yesterday he indicated that before the governm ent makes any decisions regarding these recommendations I believe further dialogue with health care providers and the public is necessary. My question to the Minister of Health is, what form of public consultations is he talking about and when can we anticipate these public consultations to take place? Bon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, that dialogue is very much underway right now as the design teams have been doing their work. There has been all kinds of consultation with medical profess ionals. The members of the public have been meeting with me . I have been meeting with organizations which are trying to put forward one position or another, and that process is underway now, as the cost-benefit analy sis for the various recommendations is also underway.

The honomable member , I understand, may or may not have aspirations for pe rmanent leadership of the Liberal Party, Madam Speaker, and if he ever achieves that, he is going to have to look at the whole health care system, which is what honourable members on this side of the House have to do, with due recognition for the con cerns in each and every region, constituency and neighbourhood in our province.

I ask the honourable member and those who are making their positions known, which is quite a reasonable thing to do, by the way, but I ask them to re member that we have $1.8 billion to spend on health care in our province. It is the highest level as a percentage of spending anywhere in the country. The commitment is clear. We are trying to make sure that the health care services that people need are there when they need them, no matter where you happen to live. Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Speaker, the Minister of Health should- Madam Speaker: Order, please. Would the honourable member please pose his question now?

April 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 519 Mr. Lamoure ux: Madam Speaker, can the Minister of Health indicate to Manitobans when he is going to be holding this so-<:alled dialogue with the public members, given that he has recognized that there is a fundamental flaw to this whole process in which we will see the Seven Oaks Hospital and Misericordia Hospital closed down, that is, that there has never been a cost-analysis study done? Mr. McCrae: As I told the honourable member, Madam Speaker, that analysis is underway right now.

We are not wanting to make decisions that are not based on the kind of analysis that is required to make important decisions. That is what we have been trying to do with health care since 1992 and the plan being put forward, and we are trying to be consistent with that plan. We hear people's observations about the proper use of the tertiary health centres and the proper use of our community hospitals. We hear those things. We understand them; we agree with those things. We want to make sure that we design an integrated health system in the city ofWinnipeg that makes sense.

It makes sense to the honourable member and the people he is representing; it makes sense to all of them. But the bottom line is, again, Madam Speaker, every patient who requires services has to be taken into account and their needs have to be taken into account as we go forward. Phannacare Deductibles Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Speaker, my final supplementary goes to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson). According to a report by the National Council of Welfare, Manitoba has the third-highest poverty rate in Canada-18.4 percent or 198,000 Manitobans.

Yet, the minister maintains his budget is not an attack on the poor. My question for the Minister of Finance is, if this is so, why did the minister choose to make $15,000 the magic number for deciding Manitobans pay 3 percent or 2 percent of their income on the Pharmacare deductible, and why not the $15,479? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, in our deliberations as we designed the changed Pharmacare program, it was felt that people whose family income is under $15,000 should be entitled to a little more protection under the new plan. Is the honourable member disagreeing with that? *

(1410) Brandon General Hospital Funding Reductions Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Madam Speaker, I too have a question for the Minister of Health. During the past provincial election, both the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and the minister assured Manitobans that our health care system would be maintained. Yet, we constantly learn of serious cuts, Madam Speaker.

Can the Minister of Health confirm that as a result of the $2.4-million cut to the 1996-1997 Brandon General Hospital budget that the hospital is now cutting 1 0 senior nursing staff positions and that in addition there will be another 40 full-time nursing positions terminated by October 1 of this year? Bon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): I think the honourable member for Brandon East should attend more meetings that have to do with health, because he should know if he does not know by now-I used to hear him when he was in opposition defending bed cuts at Brandon General Hospital and he talked about more day surgery going on. I have a distinct recollection of the honourable member for Brandon East talking about that, after he could be found, after a significant period of time after the cuts-(interjection] He did, it is true.

He was unavailable for some period of time, but he talked about the changes in our hospitals. Brandon General Hospital is unique in many ways, but there is an important way that Brandon General Hospital is the same as some of the other larger hospitals in Manitoba and that is that outpatient and not-for admission surgery is on the rise very, very significantly and patient days are on the decline. Yet, overall, over the last number of years there has been an overall very significant increase in the spending going on at Brandon General Hospital.

520 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April4, 1996 Now, it is true that in the last year or two that things have levelled off or reduced slightly, but the point is, things are changing in our hospitals. The honourable member ought to make himself aware of that or should reacquaint himself with that, because I know he knew about it at one time when he was defending cuts at Brandon General Hospital. Mr. Leonard Evans: Regrettably, we cannot debate misinformation that comes out of the mouth of the Min ister of Health, but I will get on with my question, because he knows the hospital has just about been decimated.

It has been cut in half since this governm ent has been in office. Can the minister confirm that as a result of his 6 percent cut to the Brandcm General Hospital for 1996-97, 20 medical beds plus another 30 beds for patients awaiting placement, for a total of 50 beds, are to be eliminated? Of course, this is on top of a couple of hundred bed closures that occurred. How does this improve the health care in Brandon and Westman? Mr. McCrae: Madam Speaker, I think we have been attempting to address the overall issue of beds in the province of Manitoba, in the city, in the country and everywhere.

It is generally agreed amongst all health experts that Manitoba has a relatively high ratio of acute care hospital beds per thousand population. There is no disagreem ent about that that I know of unless it is now a new point of view being assumed by honourable members opposite. So if some of the bigger hospitals are looking at making a more efficient use of the services that they can provide to the population that results in reductions in the number of beds-the honourable members opposite did not mind cutting beds at one time.

I do not understand why all of a sudden it has become a different story because, actuall y, if you want to look in the first reference to the words "health care reform," I recall the honourable member for Thompson back in 1987 making reference to health care reform when we were talking about massive bed cuts in places like Brandon, Manitoba. Madam Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader) : On a point of order , Madam Speaker, Beauchesne Citation 417 is very clear.

It states that "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." I realize that the minister constantly, day in, day out, violates all three of those, and it is tempting to get up virtually every time he answers a question to raise this matter in Beauchesne, but after now hearing about 10 answers which all violate Beauchesne very clearly, I would ask you to bring the minister to order and ask him to answer for once some of the very serious questions that are being asked on health care.

Madam Speaker: On the point of order by the honourable member for Thompson, indeed, the honomable member for Thompson does have a point of order. I would caution that the honourable Minister of Health make his comments relevant to the question being asked. * * * Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Brandon East, to pose a final supplementary question. Mr. Leonard Evans: Will the Minister of Health advise this House and the people that use the Brandon General Hospital that there will be 70 fewer beds at that hospital because of the cuts made by his governm ent? Mr.

McCrae: I cann ot at this moment confirm or deny, as the honourable member would like on that point, but I know that with respect to the nursing management at Brandon General Hospital some changes are happening, and those changes are decisions made by the Brandon General Hospital and approved by the Manitoba Health. Home Care Program Privatization Ms. Diane McGifford (Osborne) : Ninety-eight percent of the approximately 1,500 home care workers who will be laid off in July are wome n.

Furthermore, privatization means that women hired in the private sector will suff er wage reductions ranging from 40 percent to 60 percent of their incomes, making many of them paupers. Clearly, gov ernment policy to privatize home care targets a

April4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 521 vulnerable and recognizable group and violates the principles of women's full and equal participation. I would like to ask the Minister of Health a no-frills question, and we ask in return the courtesy of a no-frills answ er. How can he explain his blatant disregard for the lives, livelihood and rights of these Manitoba women? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): I have no disregard for contributions made by my fellow citizens to their fellow citizens in the Home Care program or any other program.

I do have clients that have to be looked after today, and there will be many more in the future as we address the appropriate use of the acute care system and as we address the projections that have our population aging over the next number of years. Those are real problems, Madam Speaker, those are real issues that have to be addressed. I am not a New Democrat. I cannot just pretend they do not exist. Ms. McGifford: Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister for the Status of Women (Mrs.

Vodrey), whose sworn duty of course is to promote the full and equal participation of women, if she could tell this House what advice either she or the Women's Directorate gave the Minister of Health regarding the implicitly sexist decision to privatize home care. Mr. McCrae: If I was like the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), I would raise a point of order about that particular kind of comment. That is uncalled for, Madam Speaker. Many, many of our clients are women, elderly women who require care, require treatment.

I do not want to say to them five, six, three, four years from now, sorry, no more home care because we mismanaged things back in the earlier days. I do not want to be able to do that or have to do that. Does the honourable member not remember that the clients of the home care, many, many of them, perhaps a majority of them, probably a majority of them are women and require services and are very vulnerable too? Does the honourable member not realize that? *

(1420) Northern Patient Transport ation Program User Fee Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health. If there is one thing that is missing from this government's health care policies it is an understanding of what impact it is having on many Manitobans. Nothing could typify that more than yesterday when I received a call from a family, the husband of whom is a heart patient, the wife is a home care worker.

They were not phoning on their own circumstances; they were phoning in regard to one of her clients who could barely scrape together the $50 user fee that was necessary to come to Winnipeg to have her second leg amputated. This woman, by the way, is a former neighbour of mine, someone I know personally.

I want to ask the Minister ofHealth, in regard to one of the user fees they imposed a few years ago, Northern Patient Transportation, whether he has finally listened to northern Manitobans and whether there is any change to Northern Patient Transportation that will relieve the burden on women such as this person I talked about yesterday who could barely scrape together the $50 to come to Winnipeg to have her leg amputated. Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, the honourable member knows that no one would feel anything but sympathy for a person in that sort of a circumstance who has to face that kind of a surgical procedure. It would not matter where you live. Anyone facing that is in a diffi cult circumstance, and no one would deny that In fact, everyone here would understand that. There are people in other parts of the province too who pay more than the person in northern Manitoba to access services. The honourable member knows that and ought to remember that when he is asking these questions. Mr.

Ashton: Will the minister answer the very simple question I asked? Has he made any changes to the Northern Patient Transportation Program user fee? Mr. McCrae: No, we have not made any changes to that fee.

522 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April4, 1996 Inflation Rate Government Forecast Mr. Tim Sale (Cr escentwood): Over the past year, Manitobans have experienced relatively high rates of inflation by comparison with the rest of the country. Winnipeg, in particular, has had quite a high rate of inflation, I think at various points during the year the highest in the country. I wonder if the Minister of Finance could tell the House what level of inflation he expects Manitoba will experience during this next year. Hon.

Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): I believe the estimates for inflation, both Manitoba and Canada, are in the 1.5 to 2 percent range. Mr. Sale: I wonder then why the minister would use the figure of .4 percent in his budget, thereby deliberately misconstruing the possible revenues to this province, making it appear to Manitobans that we would not have the revenues to support programs like Pharmacare and Home Care when he tells the House the truth of the story is, we will have 1.5 to 2 percent, not .4 percent as he puts in his budget. Mr.

Stefanson: Madam Speaker, the member for Crescentwood clearly shows a lack of understanding of how the budget is prepared. I would be more than prepared to take whatever time is required to teach him how the budget is prepared, along with his Leader, because particularly his Leader and some who have been in government should know that in the current budget year in 1996-97, what we are using are the best estimates available. We get estimates from the federal government in terms of the transfers from the federal government.

We get estimates from the federal governm ent in terms of the estimated actual personal income tax, corporate income tax. We use the base of our curr ent retail sales tax and build an adjustment to that. What he is referring to, where we use the economic model of economic growth, that is for 1997 and beyond. It is not for 1996. So for 1997 and beyond we do run an economic model based on economic growth.

I will admit, for that model, based on today, we are using the lowest pro jections because we feel the most prudent thing to do is to be cautious in terms of what those economic growth figures might be, unlike members across who will build in artificially high numbers , then fmd out the revenue is not there and then need to scramble to either run deficits or increase taxes, things that we do not do. Mr.

Sale: Madam Speaker, would the minister then explain why, on page 8 of the financial review and statis tics the year 1996 appears, not 1997, and the inflation assumption is . 4 percent, not even within the range of any of the assumptions made by any forecasters, fitr below, and below any level reached in Manitoba since the Depression of the 1930s? How is that a reasonable revenue expectation? Mr. Stefanson: It does not matter what page it is on. Obviously the member for Crescentwood-the member clearly did not listen to my previous answer. Based on his subsequent question, he could not have listened at all.

I explained to him how the 1996 figures are arr ived at in terms of our budget. Information on economic growth, employment growth, all of those numbers are provided as information in a d ocument, but in terms of preparing our revenue numbers, they are based on the actual pro jections provided both by Revenue Canada and the federal government and our own analysis. We do not run the economic model. He did not seem to either listen or understand, and both of those are a problem. Madam Speaker: Order, please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Rural Communities Mr.

Merviil Tweed (Turtle Mountain): Madam Speaker, I rise today to affirm in this House a feeling of energy and excitement that is building in our rural communities. Over the past two months, I have had the pleasure of co-chairing the Working for Value task force, of meeting with rural Manitobans from all parts of our great province. These meetings confirmed for me a feeling that

April 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 523 I have long held that our rural residents are the backbone of our provin ce's economy and are vital to the future prosperity . In tabling its provincial budget yesterday, this government reaffirmed its commitment to our rural communities and recognized 1he important role it plays in Manito ba's future. By increasing funding fo r rural economic programs by 10 percent, we are providing the means fo r the momentum that is evident in our rural economies to be built upon.

Madam Speaker, rural Manitobans have embraced such programs as the Rural Economic Development Initiative and the Grow Bonds Program and have used them to create jobs and generate investment in their communiti es. They have embraced this government 's effort to give 1hem a more direct role in the direction of programs, and this is reflected in the tremendous success of the Community Works Loan Program.

The other da y's budget also outlined an irrigation initia tive that will help develop water supply fo r an expanded agricultural development in our province and, together with a new Enhanced Crop Insurance Program, gives our producers the tools and security they need. Madam Speaker, this government made a commitment to work with rural Manitobans to help streng1hen their commu niti es, and they have responded in an overwhelming way. We have created a climate of confidence where their ideas and initiatives can be built upon, and we are seeing and feeling the positive results.

The commitment that this government continues to make to rural Manitobans will ensure that 1he energy and vibrancy that was so apparent only gets stronger and will provide our young people with a prosperous future in their home comm uniti es. *

(1430) Mining Industry in Manitoba Ms. MaryAnn Mihychuk (St. James): Madam Speaker, mining has long been a major ind ustry in the province of Manitoba In 1988, fo r example, the value of production exceeded $1.7 billion. The previous NDP administration, through the Manitoba Mineral Resources and working with industry was able to preserve communities and open new min es. Sadly, the Filmon government, which took office that year, saw the North and mining purely as a source of reven ue. In 1989, over 4,600 people worked in the ind ustry. By the end of1he year, Pu.flY Lake and Lynn Lake gold mine were both shut down.

Three mines shut down in Snow Lake between '92 and '93. The Tantalum mine also closed in Lac du Bonnet in 1992 fo r some time. In October of 1992, lnco itself shut down fo r three weeks. Now, today, we see 3,353 people worki ng in the industry-over 1,000 jobs lost. The incre ase in commodity prices, Madam Speaker, has resulted in the reopening of fo ur mines in the past few mon ths. This year, contrary to the misinfonnation of the Premier (Mr. Filmon) , the industry has far to go to regain the streng1h that it had during the previous adm inistration.

This year, exploration expenditures are estimated at $40 million less than 1988. The Filmon years have been years of declining jobs, revenue, exploration and the closing of min es. World wide incr eases in commodity prices is resulting in increased mining activity in northern Canada and in Manitoba. It is time the Premier and his ministers stopped misinf ormation and acted in the public inte rest. Public Safety Mr. David Newman (Riel): Madam Speaker, the issue of public safety has long been a priority fo r us.

During the election last year, we promised to support initiatives which would keep Manitobans safe, and a key commi tment we made was to provide additional funding to the City of Winnipeg to put more police officers on city streets. Our latest budget will allow Manitobans to rest assured that we are keeping that promi se. The budget reaffirms that this government will be providing the city with $2 million to put additional police officers on the streets of Winnip eg. This will translate into 40 new police officers.

Our eff orts to keep Manitobans safe also extends to our continued support of Winnipe g's Downtown Watch civilian safety teams. These teams help deter crime and create a more secure environment in the ci ty's downtown. This benefits all of us-busin ess people, people who work downtown and even those who shop, eat or go downtown for entertainment. Personal security extends beyond

524 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Apri1 4, 1996 feeling safe on our streets, however, Madam Speaker . That is why the honourable Minister of Justice (Mrs . Vodrey) is working to ensure that the victims of stalkers are protected By allowing for the removal of their names from voters ' lists, their privacy is ensur ed and a greater degree and sense of security is achieved. It is important to recognize that it is just as important to work to prevent crime as it is to deal with its effects.

For this reaso n, we have initiated the Urban Sports Camp Program which will provide Manitoba's youth with a positive alternative to gangs, violence and criminal behaviour. This is our latest program in a series of positive steps to help our youth become healthy, productive and active members of their communities. However, Madam Speaker, we all have a role to play as MLAs in making our communities saf er. In fact, in my home constituency of Riel I will be hosting a curling bonspiel April 20 intended to raise funds for the creation of a youth centre for at-ri sk teenagers.

It will provide a safe haven, positive role models and pro gramming and a supportive atmosphere for our youth. I would like to thank everyone who has worked very hard to get this event off the ground, people who have volunteered their time, their efforts, their financial support, in order to make this worthwh ile pro ject a real ity. Thank you very much. Potential for Spring Flooding Ms.

Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): I want to raise an issue and draw the attention of members of the House to an issue that affects many residents in Manitoba but dramatically affects about 200 families in the constituency of Radisson, and that is the potential for flooding this spring and the damage that it will cause to many family homes. I was pleased to see that the governm ent brought forward a statement to the House that they are preparing to open the floodways to deal with the anticipated high levels of water.

I also want to remind the government that they have made a conunitment to consider cost sharing, on a 50-50 basis, flood protection for the area of south Transcona . In the government's statement today they said that preparation is the best defence against flooding, and I hope that they will put that into practice in the area of south Transcona and ensure that they work with the city and the federal governm ent to provide the necessary fimds to protect this area which has seen many disastrous springtimes, as well as other times of the year for flooding.

I want to remind the governm ent that it will save money in the long run if they invest in flood protection. It does not make sense to have to pay disaster assistance to a nmnber of fumilies when they could save that money by creating jobs in infrastructure development. I find that it is a problem that this governm ent and the federal government curr ently have no program in place to fund infrastructure for flood protection, and I want to urge them to create such a fund so that families are not inconvenienced and bear the financial cost of flooding.

In closing, I want to encourage them to live up to their conunitment and work with the city and not play games with waiting for the city to present a proposal and approach the city immediately to work together to create a proposal that will meet the needs that are affecting Transco na. With increased development on Dugald Road they are seeing worse flooding each spring. Thank you, Madam Speaker. Statistics Canada Report Release Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): The theme of our ninth budget was one of building confidence. This confidence has been- Madam Speaker: Order, please.

I wonder if I could ask the co-operation of all honourab le members to either take their seats or sit in the loge so that the honourab le member for Gimli will be given the respect he deserves in giving his member 's statement. Mr. Hdwer: The theme of our ninth budget was one of building confidence. This confidence in Manitoba's economy was further emphasized by the Conference Board of Canada which indicated Manitoba's economy is steamrolling ahead.

Our government is conunitted to ensuring long-term employment opportu nities exist for Manitobans so that our prosperity and security can be passed down to all our children. Our province has been recognized repeatedly as having a strong and vibrant economy. We heard that 10,000 new jobs were created in 1995 alone, that our province had the lowest youth

April 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 525 unemployment rate in all of Canada and that we had the largest drop in the unemployment rate in a generation. The successes emphasized in our budget have been reaffirmed today with the release of Statistics Canada's report. The Statistics Canada report states that March was an excellent month fo r job growth in Manitoba. Total employment reached 525,000 persons on a seasonally adjusted basis, up 2,000 from the 523,000 the previous month. This fo llows very strong gains in February, when total employment rose by 7,000.

Our March increase in employment was concentrated in full time private sector positions. Our gains are in sharp contrast to the national perf ormance, and, fo r the first three months of 1996, full-time employment in Manitoba is up 6,000 or 1.6 percent over the same period last year. This is fo ur times fa ster than Canada's . 4 percent rate of full-time job growth so far this year. So Manitoba's seasonally adjusted unemployment rate was 7.2 percent in March '96, down from 7.6 percent in February '96 and, once again, second lowest among all other provinces.

So our governm ent laid the fo undation fo r economic prosperity when we came to office eight years ago, and we have been and continue seeing the significant gains made as a result. These gains have clearly impacted a significant number of Manitobans in a positive manner, as the numbers I have mentioned attest to. I am confident that given the strong gains in full-time employment posted in just the first three months in '96, Manitoba is set to once more lead the provinces in all economic indicators. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE (Third Day of Debate) Madam Speaker: To resume debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stef anson) that the House approve in general the budgetary policy of the governm ent and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the official Opposition (Mr. Doer) in an amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable member fo r Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) who has two minutes remaining. *

(1440) Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster) : Madam Speaker, yesterday at 5:30 I had the opportunity to conclude my remarks which I started at five o'clock, which indicated the general theme that this governm ent does have a fixation. That fixation no doubt is on the deficit, but there has been a tremendous cost. This has been a governmen t that has clearly demonstrated that it does not have the heart or it does not care, it does not have the compassion, fo r Manitobans. With that, we express our great disappointment in this budget, and therefore I would move, seconded by the member fo r The Maples (Mr.

Kowalski), THAT the amendment be amended by adding therefore the fo llowing words: And further regrets THAT this governm ent's 1996 budget document points out the real meaning of their 1995 campaign promise "Manitoba Strong" which we now know to mean "Manitoba for the Strong" and thereby demonstrate their lack of caring and compassion fo r Manitobans. Motion presented. Madam Speaker: The subamendment is in order. Bon.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Madam Speaker, I am pleased to be able to have my opportunity to respond to what is truly a historic budget here in Manitoba, our second consecutive balanced budget consistent with the balanced budget legislation, and I think reflect the great confidence Manitobans have in a government that will continue to have surpluses and will continue to balance the budgets in years to come.

Bef ore I get into it however, I must say I was rather disappointed in the Leader of the Opposition not being able to offer any positive contributions in his response yesterday. I was able to listen to the deputy leader of the Liberals and I do recognize that he said that he was prepared to off er congratulations when there were good parts of the

526 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 1996 budget and I think I respect a more open attitude than I sensed from the Leader of the official opposition. This is truly a historic balanced budget again in Manitoba and Manitoba is consistently leading the way in bringing forward budgets which allow us to live within our means, budgets that will continue to run a surplus and give us the ability to pay down the in excess of $7 billion of debt that has been accumulated over the last 20-some years here in Manitoba.

The other important component of that of course is that within the budget there was a commitment that there would be no new taxes, no change in the provincial sales tax, no hike in income taxes or the corporate tax and, again, Manitoba ns, Manitoba busines ses, other levels of governm ent in Manitoba have received this ·with warm acceptance and it gives them some sense of certainty as to what their governm ent is going to do. I think that I would like to refer to some of the comments that have been made by other more objective people about the budgets.

The editorial in one of the Winn ipeg newspapers following the budget indi cates that Finance Minister Eric Stefanson's budget provides plenty of reasons to be optimistic about the provin ce's future. That optimism is recognized, as the member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) indicated in his statement today, by many people throughout Manitoba. That optimism is recognized by other levels of governm ent, other companies across Canada, and I dare say the only place that optimism is not recognized is within this Chamber amongst members of the opposition and some of their followers.

The editorial comment also indicates the commitment we made in 1988. When the Tories first came to power in 1988, they promised to reduce taxes, balance the books and make Manitoba more attractive for investme nt. They have lived up to those promises over the years. Now if any one truly listened to the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Doer) speech yesterday, any of the comments he made were contrary to that, and here you have an objective analys is of the budget which certainly says that we had set some targets in 1988 and we have truly lived up to them.

Our priorities have remained the same, to protect the vital services that Manitobans depend on. Even with the massive federal offioad of transf er payments and the indications even from the Prime Minister that health care is going to change drastically within Canada, that the governm ent and the funding will only be there for catastrophic circumstances, our priority is still health care, education and family services. In the budget document, the minister has indicated again that we will be spending 34 percent of our budget on health care, truly the highest amount of any jurisdiction in Canada.

Similarly, our commitment to education and training and fumilies in Manitoba has been maintained. Those have been our priorities since 1988 and that is where 90 percent of the new spending has gone, into those three priority areas. This budget that was tabled two days ago has been very consist ent in determining the expenditures of this governm ent.

Again, Manitoban s, citizens across this provin ce, have applauded the balanced budget legislation, the fact that they know we are not going to raise taxes, that they know we are not going to run deficits and the fact that they know that in a very short time we are going to start paying down the tremendous debt that was accumulated over the past. So I would like to just spend a few minutes in looking at the past and the reason why we have the type of circumstances that we have today where the public debt cost this province 11 percent of our expenditure s.

Again, our fourth highest level of expenditure within our budget is servicing the debt, money that could be used for programs that has to service a debt that was created in the early 1980s. Again, I would like to refer to an editorial from April 1 where one of the local papers again tried to provide for Manit obans an understandi ng of why we are in the situation that we are.

The editorial is called Manito ba's hard road, and it indicates quite clearly that the difficult times that Manitobans have had and the Manitoba government has had can be traced to the 1981 to 1988 period where the provincial debt has risen dramatically. It goes on to indicate that in 1982 Manito ba's all purpose debt was $1. 4 billion. Six years later, after six years of the Pawley-Doer administration, that debt had jumped to $5 .3 billion. That is the period of time when the income of governm ent was growing dramatically through excessive taxation, through revenues to the provincial governm ent .

April 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 527 Yet, year in and year out, they ran deficits and ��ted that debt, which went from $1 .4 billion to $5 .3 bllh on. That is the debt that we have stru ggl ed with since 1988 . That is the debt that we are committed, thr ough our surp luses, to pay down over a peri od of 30 years, and that dr amatic increase in the debt is still being felt today as the editorial indicates.

In 1982 the Pr ovince of Manitoba spent only $114 million serv icing that debt, and in that fiv e -or six-year per iod when the NDP governm ent of Pr emier Pawley and the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) were in power that cost of serv icing the debt went from $114 million to $545 million. It has taken a number of years now to get our financial house in order, and Manitobans are extreme ly pleased that over the next number of years they are going to see balanced budgets, they are going to see surp luses, and they are going to see that debt paid down. *

(1450) What has not changed, of course, is the rhetoric that we hear from the opposition party , a party who is opposed to everythin g, who have not reco gnized what governm ents thr oughout Canada, thr oughout No rth America, governments thr oughout the world have real ized. Since the fall of the Berlin wall there have been many changes taking place across the world, and unfortun ately the opposition party in Manitoba still is opposed to everything, have not recognized these changes, and truly are loo king at solutions that were in place duri ng those 1980s and dur ing that governm ent of Howard Pawley .

They have not adjusted to the new realities . They have not under stood the new realities. The Leader of the Op position (Mr. Doer) and other members of his party are sometimes refe rr ed to as the Pr ince of Dar kness and the duke of despair. Everythin g is negative to them. In fact, I would refer to another editorial that was written in a Winnipeg paper recent ly where it talks about ND P governments in other part s of Canada reali zing the new reali ties, and I quote from it.

It says, Gary Doer and his Manitoba New Democrats who still rely heavily on the old rhet ori c using buzz phrases such as the Americanization of the health care system and who decry privati zation whenever the subject is raised risk earning a reputation for old thinking. That old thinking is still there. They have not changed as their soul mates � Saskatchewan or their soul mates in British Colum bia who are in governm ent and real ize the tough decisions that have to be made. In fact I would suggest that there probably are members 'of their party who have recogn ized there is a need for change.

I recently got a copy of an

article from the Flin Fl on newspaper called The Reminder, and it talks about a former member, Jerry Storie, having an oppor tunity to speak when the Leader of the Opp�sition (Mr. Doer) and the new federal leader were m the audience, and Mr. Storie declares himself a social democrat and a fiscal conserva tive. He implored both leaders to hold on to their c urr ent values while admitting there is nothing wrong with balan cing the budget. That is a quotation of a former member, a former front bencher of the NDP.

I suspect there were reasons for him leaving the Legislatu re, and this was advice he was giving to the current Leader and the current leader of the federal ND P , that there is nothing wro ng, there is absolutely nothing wrong with balancing the budget. He goes on to say, we have to get away from the notion that balancing the budget is a bad thing only associated with the far ri ght.

It was some tough wor ds for a party whose pri ority has always been to support social pro grams at almost any cost, but he says that ever y once in a while you have to move, you have to get out there, and that is the big challenge facing our party. So the former member, reco gnizing the need to change pol icies, the former member who · is back in the semi-private sector, acknowledges that balanced budgets are not a bad thing. I would suggest that it would be important . for Mr.

Storie maybe to repeat that message to the whole NDP caucus and have them understand that balanc ing the budget is very, ver y important and that other governme nts across this land have recognized that. On the other hand, maybe that is the beginning of a leadership speech on his part. The rhetoric, of cour se, that comes from the opposition benches is still the same. They do reco gnize I suppose that there are two choices, and the choices that they have always used are either to tax and spend or borrow and spend.

They have to reali ze that that way of doing business is not acceptable anymore, that they will have to get in step with the rest of the world and also move towards balanced budgets.

528 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 1996 I would like to move, next, to what is happening in the ec onomy today, and again my colleague fo r Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed) I think related some of these things in his statement to the House today, about the tremendous things that are happening in rural Manitoba, that the task fo rce that has visited some 2 7 comm unities in rural Manitoba has heard about these tremendous succ esses. I would also like to talk to the House today about the Conf erence Board of Canada overview. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) was taking some liberties with the headline in the Conference Boar d's analy sis that talked about the economy steamrolling ahead in Manitoba. Before we get into that, I would like to just relate what some of the other headlines were, relative to other provi nces, to perhaps make members see that the Manitoba economy :fares very well in comparison to other are as. In British Columbia, fo r instance, the headline was: growth slows over the near term .

In Alberta, growth to rebound in 1997; in Saskatch ewan it reflects weak economic growth; in Quebec, prospects of moderate growth; in the Mariti mes, a series of negative headlines, economic growth remains muted, recession looms , growth slows as fixed link nears completion in ref erence to Prince Edward island, and economic activity eases in New Brunswick. If you look at the entire report, and I have not read the entire report but I have read the Manitoba portion of it, which recognizes the tremendous growth that has taken place in Mani toba.

In the budget pamphlet in brief some of this is documented there, about 10,000 new jobs in Manitoba in 1995, a 2. 7 percent growth in private sector jobs, the lowest youth unemployment rate in Canada, the population growth at a nine-year high, retail sales up 4. 9 percent . These are facts that are recognized by the Conference Board, recognized by other indicators acro ss the country. When the headline says that the economy is steamrolling ahead, and as far as Manitoba is concerned, there is substance to that, there are statistics that back that up.

Again, the only people who fail to recognize that, by being selective in some of the cases they bring fo rward, are the members of the NDP opposition. I would like to foc us a little bit on rural Manitoba and bring some of the members acr oss the way up to date on some of the activity that is happening in rural Manitob a. Today fo r instance there was a tremendous headline in the Brandon Sun dealing with the expansion of a plant in Brandon, a new expansion comi ng there that people in the Westman area are looking fo rward to.

There have been announcements recently about Repap.[intetjec tion] The member fo r Crescentwood (Mr. Sale) will find something negative in every bright cloud and likes to focu s on the negative as usual .

I would urge him to have a more opti mistic outlook on the future and to take a brighter look at things and see what the reality is instead of leaning back there and probably reflecting on the budget that he writes for Choices every year that is so negative, the pretend budget that he is the architect of There are many great things that are happening in rural Manitoba in the potato industry at McCain and at Nestle Simplot, tremendous expansion, not only in job creation within those plants but the potato acreages that are going to increase, the irrigation that is going to provide fo r that expanded potato acreage and the jobs that it is going to create in places like Carberry and Portage Ia Prairie.

There are other bright spots. The mining industry, of course, has been used as an example right across Canada and North America as an area of expansion, tremendo us, exciting things happening in northern Manitoba to provide economic activity and jobs in that area.

I would also refer to a letter I received recently from the Town of Swan River talking about the development there of the Louisiana-Pacific plant, and this is from the Town Cotmcil, again an obj ective third party which commends the gov ernm ent on the work that was done with Louis iana-Pacific and talks about the number of employees who are in the workf orce because of that plant development, also talks about the ancillary services that are required, that existing businesses in the Swan River area have hired an additional 59 emplo yees, that logging contr actors now have 140 emplo yees; there is a job creation ratio there that is well above expectatio ns, that 526 jobs have been created in that ar ea. *

(1500) They also talk about future development in Swan River as a result of this, and this is a development that has gone through tremendous processes that members of the opposition have opposed every step of the way. Again, it is a tremendous development fo r rural Manitoba.

Apr il 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 529 Through the Grow Bond program and through the RED I program, there is economic activity. There are round tables in mo st of our rural Manitoba communiti es. There is a sense of optimi sm. Underp inn ing all of this is the fa ct that their businesses and investors are pleased that we have a balanced budget, that they are prepared to inve st in Manitoba without the fe ar of higher tax es, whether it be payroll tax or income tax or corporate tax or sales tax that the members of the opposition were so fo nd of hiking when they were in power .

In fa ct, I did read a comment from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) , who praised the Saskatchewan budget and fe lt that the Saskatchewan budget was a tremendous achievement. What he did not recognize is the tremendous tax hikes that have taken place over the last few years, where a sales tax in Saskatchewan now stands at 9 percent, where about a billion dollars of taxes have been raised by the curr ent government over their mandate and, of course, he does not want to hear that. He did not want to recognize that. He simply wanted to praise a budget that is also a balanced budget.

I compliment the Minister ofFinance in Saskatchewan, who was once very briefly Minister of Family Servi ces, sort of an immaculate conversion to the reality, the fiscal realities , that exist everyw here , and I trust that the Leader of the Opposition would read some of my earlier comments so that he would get a better understanding of some of the things that I am saying at the present time . Madam Speaker, I would like to also spend a little time on the budget as it relates to the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizen ship.

Our department, virtually everything we do within the department has to do with the quality of lif e in Manitoba, and I recognize that the United Nations has twice in recent years recognized Canada as the premier place in the world to live. Certainly Manitoba is a great contributor to that. If one was to listen to the prince of dar kness, one would wonder how Canada could ever achieve a status like that.

Or if one was to listen to one of the critics over there for Family Services who consistently talks about the negative things in society how the United Nations could recognize Canada as the most fa vourable place in the world to live . I would suggest that he take a broader view of things and have a better understandi ng of Canadian society and Manitoba society. Certainly within our department most of what we do impacts on the quality of lif e within our provin ce. In filet, news papers and media coverage acro ss the land has touted the cultural community in Winni peg. Proba bly the best exam ple of that was an

article in The Globe and Mail recently which talks about the Manitoba art scene gets a standing ovation, that the art scene in Manitoba, whether it be the prof essional grou ps, the theatre centre or whether it is the ballet or the symphony, are on a level that Manitobans enj oy and appreciate, one that is virtually debt free, one that many members of this House enj oy from time to time.

Again we have been able to maintain our funding through this budget fo r those maj or arts organizations to improve and continue to enj oy the quality of lif e here in Manitoba that we have en joyed over the last number of years . This is in stark contrast to the commitments that other governments are making. The fe deral government s, municipal governm ents and other provincial governm ents are dramatically decreas ing their support fo r those arts organizations in other jurisdictions.

Manitob ans attend more events per capita than any other jur isdiction in Canada, there are more supporters of the arts in Manitoba than other jurisdiction s, and we have a tremendously vibrant and healthy arts community within the province of Manitoba. Truly Manitoba has been identified as a cultural hotbed in North America. Beyond the international recognition of pe rf orming comp anies such as the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, the Manitob a Theatre Centre or the Winnip eg Symphony Orchestra, our government has maintained and fo stered a grassroots appreciation of the arts.

We have more Manitobans from all areas of the province en joying the arts than other jurisdic tions acr oss Canada. Winnipeg has been cited by national media as being the most culturally rich city in Canada, but this recognition goes fa r beyond the ma jor cultural agencies in Winnipeg and extends to all of Manitob a. Through our continued support of the arts, the Manitoba Arts Council and our own provincial Arts Branch, we have

530 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 1996 reinf orced our commitment to the cultural enrichment of all communities in Mani toba. Just recently I had the opportunity to attend the Winnipeg Symphony perfonnan ce in my home community of Minnedo sa. Bramwell Tovey and Max Tapper and 31 musicians from the Winn ipeg Symphony were making a rural Manitoba tour, and this was the first time they stopped in my community of Minnedo sa. We had a sold-out house, and the crowd was very appreciative.

Very importantly, one of the newe st members of the orchestra that day-it was his first perfonnance-was a young man who grew up in Rivers and took his training in Brandon and later in Halifax, and now through a competition was able to achieve the status of being one of the violin players with the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra. I would like to remind all members of the House that our tremendou sly strong cultural institutions within the province are paying dividends not only from the perfonnan ce end but also providing employment for members of the community within Manit oba.

All of these, then, and more illustrate that our continued commitment are an important element in the quality of life of all Manitobans, and I know that sometime in their questions and speeches and perhaps in Estimates members of the opposition will get an opportunity to recognize the tremendous contribution that the arts play within this province .

Each year I have the honour of attending the conf erence of Provincial Recreation Volun teers, and part of our quality oflife is to have a tremendous army of volunteers across this province who help to deliver the recreation programs in all of our villages and R.M.s and towns across the province . Again, we are pleased that we have been able to maintain the funding, not only for the arts side, but also for the recreation side.

The co-operation of these volunteer s, our own recreation consultants and all the recreation directors from around the province through our Recreation Opportunities Program are a great example of how we can form healthy communi ties.

I think that more and more we are seeing, especially within our department and especially within the Recreation branch the tremendous impact we have on the wellness of Manitobans and to encourage more and more Mani tobans to take responsibility for their own health, to participate in recreation activities and be not only a benefit to their commmrity, but it is a tremendous benefit to themselve s. Our record of supporting local programming as well as ins titutions such as museums and libraries is certainly tremendou s.

Two budgets ago we were able to show a 50 percent increase in the budgets of libraries cross this province. We have put more funding in for automation and within the last year have had the opportunity to attend the openings of libraries in Stone wall and, I believe, Ste. Anne and one coming up in Neepawa where, through partnership with our department and community groups, not only are existing libraries being enhanced but also new ones are being built. I mentioned museums.

Certainly the Museum of Man and Nature is the foremost reason why people come to Manitoba to visit our province, to visit Winnipeg in particular. That museum is outstanding in the programming that they offer and the manner in which that museum is operated. So, again, I am pleased that we have been able to maintain our funding for those institutions within the province.

Madam Speaker, while continuing to support the social services I referenced before, health, education and family service, to a greater extent than the previous governm ent, we continue to emphasize our support for all these areas that enrich the quality of life for all Manitobans . * (1 510 ) I would like to just take a minute to say probably one of the real growth industries within culture is the film and sound community .

You will be able to see at this time and shortly a munber of new presentations that have been the responsibility of CEDO and have reached a certain amount of popularity and success across this coun try, films such as The Last Winter, For The Moment that were produced in Manitoba by Manitobans with film crews that take on about 60 Manitobans and provide work and opportunities for them. There are more films on the horizon through some of the producers and directors within this province, and I can tell you that there are tremendous opportunities there for people who want to work in that indu stry.

At the present time, we have two full film and sound crews within the province and there is a tremendous demand for more.

April 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 53 1 I am pleased that the City of Winnipeg has created the position of film commissioner, I think he is called, to try and encourage more of these films to come to the city of Winnipeg, and I am sure that you are going to see these films being produced, not only in places like Gimli and Brandon and Winnipeg but in other areas of the province as well. I think that my time is quickly running out. I would just like to go back to some earlier remarks and talk about changes that need to take place .

Members opposite have always been against privatization of Crown corporations and other efforts that governm ent is involved in, and I am pleased to see that their cousins in Saskatchewan, the Saskatchewan governm ent, is now looking at some privatization within that sector. I would like to report that McKenzie Seeds, which until recently was a Crown corporation, is now owned by Regal Greetings & Gifts of Toronto, has had a very, very successful year. They have signed a number of new contrac ts. Their profit margin is up considerably.

They have made agree ments not only with Regal but also with the Disney Corporation, and they have improved their product line. All of the preconditi ons that were set for that corporation have been met and exceeded, and we are very pleased with the development.

Again, the people who are part of the mana gement and ownership structure say very clearly, it is the balanced budget, the low taxes, the fact that the governm ent is going to address the debt situation in this province that makes it an attractive place to do busine ss that are the reasons that they were willing to move into Manitoba to purch ase a historic company which is a hundred years old this year and to meet all those preconditions and commitments that were set and to be very much in an expansionary mode in the near future.

So thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity to make my contribution to the budget. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burr ows): Madam Speaker, as I begin my budget addr ess, I would like to talk a little bit about my constituents in Burr ows, the kinds of people who live in Burr ows and a little bit about their expectations and then compare the Budget Addr ess and how it affects them. We have a very large working- class population in Burrows . We have quite a number of middle-class people, especially those who have two incom es.

However, we are greatly over-represented by poor people, particularly those people on unemployment insurance and social assistance, and we have a very high percentage of senior citizens . I belie ve the average percentage for seniors in Winnipeg is about 12 percent. In Burr ows, I believe, it is about 20 percent. In fact, there are three seniors high-rise buildings in my constituency and one public housing seniors complex. So there are actually four different kinds of seniors accommodation in Burr ows.

I think that all of my constituents in Burr ows expect an affordable, accessible, unive rsal, nonprofit health care system. I think this is something that all Canadians have come to expect since medicare was brought in by the fe deral government in the early 1960s, and I think we pride ourselves on having a health care system that costs less money than the American system, provides coverage for everyo ne,

whereas in the United States about 30 million Americans have no public health insurance or private health insurance and many more people are very poorly covered and people have come to appreciate this system and expect it to be there when they are in need. They also take it as a given or take it for granted that we pay for the health care system through our taxes. Even though we may be in good health, we expect to pay for the health care of other people when they need it and for ourselves when we need it. In fact, this is true of many other kinds of governm ent servi ces.

It is not always well understood by the public, partic ularly when it comes to education. Frequently, one will hear seniors complaining about having to pay education taxes when they do not have children in school, but it is really no different than the health care system, where it is pred ominantly used by the sick but everyone, including the healthy, pays for it. Certainly health care is used by many senio rs, but I do not think they think about that when they think about paying education taxes .

I think ever yone, though, expects an education system with high standards and high expectations of students with well-trained teache rs, an education system that is inclusive and an education system that is becoming more and more inclusive, particularly of students who are handicapped. We are now putting them into the

532 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 1996 mainstream instead of segregating them into other schoo ls. I think that is beneficial in many ways. I think it makes those individuals feel included, and I think it means fo r a more comp assio nate society and compass ionate fe llow students if they can meet these individuals and befriend them rather than never having the opportwrity to meet them because they are in different educational settings. My constituents in Burr ows, like other Manito bans, want jobs. They want to work, including the many, many people who are on social assistance.

I meet them every day. I meet them when I am canvassing door to door. I certainly get many phone calls from them, particularly when there are social assistance cuts, and I can tell you that the vast majority of those individ uals genuinely want to work. They want to contribute to our society. They want to fe el good about themselv es. Certainly, when we work, it help s our self -esteem. It helps us to fe el positive about ourselves as individuals.

Part of that self-esteem comes from knowing that we are making a contribution to being independent ourselv es, to supporting ourselves and our fa mily, and to making a contribution to our society. My constituents in Burr ows also are very concerned about personal saf ety. People want to live free of fea r. People want to fee l safe to walk down the street, fee l saf e to live in their own home without having their home broken into or their cars stolen . The previous speaker, the Minister of Culture, talked about his portf olio, talked quite a bit about the arts .

Now I do not know what percentage of people in the north end and what percentage of people support the arts . I do know that there are a lot of people who might want to but cannot aff ord to. In fa ct, the same thing is true of sporting activities. There are many people who would like to go to Winnipeg Jets games but cannot aff ord to attend . I think there are many more people who attend Blue Bomber games because the ticket price is much more aff ordable. In fact, I quite often sit in the end zone, and I know that there are people from the north end there because I see them and talk to them.

It is certainly a much more aff ordable alternative . I personally support the Blue Bombers in that we bought two season ticke ts. We went out on a limb. We might have fo rf eited $50, but it looks like they met their quota fo r season ticket sale s, so we will benefit from all of the money that we spent on Blue Bomber ticke ts, especially my son Nathan, who is a Blue Bomber fa n. Madam Speaker, I would like to delve into the budget address of the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stef anson) , and, once again, I would like to talk about some of the statements , including one that I brought up in Question Period wherein the Minister of Finance said that his governm ent wants to protect priority social services such as health, education and support fo r fa milies . I think the rhetoric is there, but the truth and honesty that I would want to see from this gov ernm ent is not. Certainly it is not truthful to say that they are protecting and making a priority out of health when there are numerous cuts in the health budget. The same is true of education.

We know the education fundi ng was cut by 2 percent fo r public education, although it was increas ed fo r private education. We are not really sure how much because the Minister of Education (Mrs . Mcintosh) was not very fo rthcomi ng in her answers. However, I am sure I will find out from my colleagues exactly how much the private education system was increased this year. Support fo r families-this gov ernm ent is supporting families in some way, and that is true, but there are cuts to families, and that is not mentioned.

It is certainly not protecting families or making a priority of social ser vices when people on social assistance had their rates cut by 1 0 percent in two categories and 2.6 percent in another category and there were other hidden cuts as well. *(1 520) The Minister ofFinance (Mr. Stef anson) in the Budget Address said that they will confirm their commitment to health care, a commitment that is second to none .

Well, I do not know how the Minister of Finance can have the gall to say that when we know that there has been a huge increase in Pharmacare deduc tibles, when eye examinations are no longer going to be covered under medicare, when there are cuts coming, at least in wages to home care work ers. We are not sure what the effect is going to be on people yet. I am sure once privatization is

Apr il 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 533 broug ht into effect, we may see some effects on individu als. The Minister of Finance talks about investing in people and says that it is essential to create the wealth necessary to maintain our vital social services and quality of lif e. I think that is a rather fundamental phrase. It certainly reflects the values of this government whereby they continually talk about the creation of wealth. I think it points to one of the fundamental differe nces between the Conservative gov ernm ent and the New Democratic Party opposition.

We have no qu arr el with the creation of wealth. However, we put more emphasis on the redistribution of wealth, in fact, a more equitable distribution of wealth. This government is going in the opposite direction because they are unwilling to tax wealth or to increase taxes on corporations or to even urge the federal go vernm ent to do so. I think it is important to recognize that the federal government has a lot more room to maneuver in this regard.

There are many more tax deferral s, tax avoidance schemes, deductions and other means whereby corporations do not pay their fair share of tax in an area that the federal government could move on. The provincial government I recognize is much more limited in its ability to capture some of this wealth. However, even the opportunities that they have, the gov ernm ent has chosen not to do so or in fact has given more and more tax breaks to corporations since they came to office in 1988.

The minister in his Budget Address continually blamed the federal government fo r their cuts in social transf ers and fo r their cuts in other ways, but I suppose they are particularly ref erring to the Canada Health and Social Transf er, which replaced the Canada Assistance Plan and the previous agreements fo r funding health and post secondary education. We know that the federal government is going to take a total of $7 billion out of those fimds to the province s, and of course the cumulative impact in the long term will be much greater.

We in this party have continually criticized the federal government fo r ofiloading in this area to the provincial gove rnment and fo r giving up responsibility in these areas so that, fo r example, under the Canada Assistance Plan there is no longer the kind of criteria that used to be in place which required that there be the right to appeal, that minimum needs be met and other criteria that were part of the Canada Assistance Plan that is now gone .

We jo in with the gov ernm ent in being critical of a federal Liberal gov ernm ent that brought in many of these programs, in fact, enacted the Canada Assistance Plan in the 1960s. However, I think some of their criticism rings hollow because, ideologically, I think they support the federal go vernm ent in their budget redu ctio ns.

We do not know whether they support the speed at which it is happening or whether they want to go faster, like the Reform Party in Ottawa does, but I suspect, because of the things that they say about deficits and debt and their debt reduction plan, that they are probably cheering the federal Minister of Financ e, Mr. Paul Martin, so fo r them to day after day stand up in this Legisla ture and in Question Period and con demn the federal government fo r cutting funds to social programs rings somewhat hollow.

Now, if they want to distinguish between social pro grams and other kinds of debt reduction, that would be fine, but we do not hear that kind of distinction. We do not hear them suggesting that the federal government do it differ ently or reduce [interjection] Well, I have not heard the provincial government say that the reduction should be greater in defence, fo r example, where the budget is $12 billion. I am still waiting fo r the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Stefanson) or any of his cabinet colleagues in Question Period or in speeches to tell us where they think the federal government should cut diff erently, other than in the Canada Health and Social Transfer. I would be very interested in hearing some specifics from the Minister of Education (Mrs . Mcintosh) or anyone else. The budget speech talks about health care and how this government is allegedly working in consultation and partnership with all stakehold ers. I think their definition of stakeholde rs, which is actually overu sed jargon, is quite different from ours .

I would think that if you are going to consult with everyone, you consult with the users, you consult with the public, and I can think of no better example than the plan to close hospitals, particularly the two urb an hospitals that are likely to get closed completely. We do know they have this urban

534 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 1996 design team. It has a lot of doctors on it. It has some administrators on it. I do not even know if there are any nurses on it, but certainly there are no members of the public there. The process is quite secretive and the people who are going to be the most affected have not been consul ted. Certainly the residents of the Mise ricordia area are very concerned. The residents of Concordia hospital area and Seven Oaks are extremely concerned about the possibility of losing a hospital or seeing ma jor changes, but they have not been consulted.

They really are in the dark on this one, so it is not really accurate to say that there has been consultation and a partnership with all stakeholders . The same is true with Pharmacare deductibles. The same is true with eliminating eye examinatio ns. The same is true with home care. The people who are being affected have not been consulted.

We know, though, that private companies have probably been consulted, because we had Treasury Board documents that we made public that showed that the City of Winnipeg was going to be divided up into quadrants, and the names of the private com panies and VON were on one of those document s. The budget document and the budget speech talks about protecting those in need. I think that is rather mislea ding language . I think attacking those in need would be a better way of describing this. Certainly the welfare fraud line is attacking those in need.

The budget cuts are attacking those in need, and the proof was in the cuts announced recently by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs . Mitchelso n). Even one of their partners, the Mennonite Central Committee, was extremely critical of this government for their cuts in welfare rates, so even when they do have partnerships, even the partners do not agree with them about what they are doing, and it is going to be very interesting to see if they actually do create 700 jobs. I am sorry I do not have the charts with me, but the caseload is extremely high.

We have 26,000 cases on provincial welfure and over 16,000 cases on city welfare. The total number of people is extremely high, and this government has made many more people deemed employab le; in other words, there is a very high job expectation on them. Yet out of those tens ofthousands of people, this governm ent only plans to put 700 of them into the workforce, which is extremely small . The governm ent has taken $4 million out of the daycare budget, and they said that the budget is lower this year reflecting the actual usage of this program in the last two years . Of course, we know why that is true.

We know it is based 011 policies going back to 1993 when the previous minister increased daycare parent fees from $1 a day to $2.40 a day and to reducing the number of weeks to search for a job from eight weeks to two weeks . So, of course, the result of these policies was that fewer parents were using daycare and the money was not spent. In fact, I pointed this out at a press conference two weeks ago and said that they were underspent by $10 million, the figure that I got from the annual reports of the Minister of Family Services (Mrs .

Mitchelson), and so what the government did was only took out money that they knew was not going to be sp ent anyway. This governm ent has a strategy on collective bargaining. It is not a very good strate gy. It kind of reminds me of the Mike Harris Cons ervative government in Ontario. I was there a couple of weeks ago, and I attended a rally at the Legis lature with about 5,000 civil serv ants, and I wish I had bought one of the buttons that people were wearing so I could bring it back and wear it here in the Legislature, but it said, no justice, no peace .

I think not only is the Mike Harris governm ent asking for class warfare and getting it, but the Filmon governm ent of Manitoba is asking for class warfare and they are going to get it. * (1530 ) We are going to see lots of strikes in Manitoba not just amongst provincially employed civil servants but also probably, if the government goes ahead with its misinf ormed plan to attack teachers, we may see strikes in the Department of Education amongst teachers employed by school boards. This is a pretty crazy solution to a problem that could be solved other ways.

We know that parents do not want teachers to have the right to strike. We know that teachers do not want the right to strike, and I believe that the vast ma jority of Manitobans do not want teachers to have the right to strike , and yet it looks like the Minister of Education (Mrs . Mcintosh) is bound and determined to follow this path. It is certainly going to lead to problems in the future.

Apr il 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 535 The government plans to introduce legis lation to require public disclosme of compensation fo r individuals whose compensation is paid either directly by the provincial governmen t or by other public sector bodies or organizations that receive significant support from the Manitoba taxpayers. Well, we know that this is an attack on civil servants and union members and people who are paid by government, but let us just think of all the privat e-sec tor companies and organizations that get public money.

The first one that came to my mind was the Winn ipeg Jets and Barry Shenkarow. Does this mean that the government is going to require that the Jets salaries all be made public, and the mana gement salaries all be made public, and the owners salaries all be made public? I think that would be very, very inter esting reading for Manito bans . In fact, then we might be able to figure out why the operating loss agreement is going to cost taxpayers in Winn ipeg and Manitoba $57 million to $60 million. So we look fo rward to seeing that legisla tion.

I do not think we are going to see the provisions that I would like to see in it, but there is certainly no reason why we could not amend it to include that. The governm ent talks about their surplus . I think we should talk about the bond rating agency who said that the pro jected $48 million surplus was not going to be a smplus at all but a $96 million deficit . I am sure that my colleagues will have more to say about this, and I think that the Provincial Auditor will too.

I think the Auditor will probably give us the real numb ers as has happened in the past, as happened with the smplus in 1988 that this governm ent never wants to talk about because they hid it in their Fiscal Stabilization or slush fund, so that they would not have to admit that an NDP governm ent had a surplus, something that they have not been willing to admit since 1988.

Madam Speaker, I would like to go back to my constituents in Burrows and talk about how this budget is aff ecting them, and one of the biggest eff ects and one of the greatest concerns in my constituency is the potential closing of Seven Oaks Hospital. We think that it is unfair to the patients to have to go either to another suburban hospital such as Concordia or Grace Hospital if their doctors get admitting privileges there or to have to change to another doctor who has admitting privileges at St.

Boniface Hospital or the Health Sciences Centre, because one of the implications is that they are either going to have to fo llow their doctor or get a new doctor . I am sme that there is no one in my community or no one in north Winnipeg who would look fo rward to taking a bus from north Winnipeg to the Grace Hospital, fo r examp le, or even to Concordia. So many people are going to end up at Medical Arts Building and other doctors in the inner city who have admitting privi leges because they are on the fa culty and have teaching and admitting privi leges at St. Boniface or at the Health Sciences Centre .

People who have come to expect a medicare system that is acce ssible and paid fo r through our tax system are now experiencing great dismay, particularly the Manitoba Society of Seniors, who have been quite articulate on this issue, because there are more and more user fe es being implemen ted. I have heard some very int eresting stories about the eff ects of user fe es on people in the past. For examp le, the summ er that Jimmy Carter was at Habitat fo r Humanity as one of the volun tee rs, one day the worship was led by one of my colleagu es, Reverend Karen Toole Mitchell.

In her worship at the Jimmy Carter work site on Duff erin Aven ue, she talked about her fa mily at one time living in the Cresc entwood area, and they owned their own home and they had a lot of pride in that house and being able to enj oy their own yard and their own garden, but Karen 's grandmother had to go to a nu rsing home. At that time-it was bef ore these things were free and accessible -they had to pay fo r the full fe es.

As a result, her parents had to sell their fam ily home in Crescentwood and move to a tenement that is on the curr ent site of Lord Selkirk development, tenements that were bulldozed in order to make way fo r public housing.

She said, and I do not mind repeating it here, that her fa ther became a broken person after this experience, because they lost the security of their own home ; they lost the en joyment of their own home and ended up living in rental accommodation, in extremely unhealthy conditi ons, and it changed their fa mily lif e fo rever. * (154 0) That is what we are going back to with fe es fo r nursing homes . People are going to be paying and paying fo r a service that was once covered through our tax system in a way that is most unfair . The same is true of Pharmacare . This is really a tax on the sick. We are

536 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 1996 changing one of om fundamental values of being a caring and sharing society, of fo llowing the Tory agenda, being a more comp etitive dog-eat-dog society where the individual is going to have to bear the burden of individual user fee s, which is really what the Pharmacare ded uctibles are. It is really not a tax on everyone where the community shares in the tax burden and pays fo r everyone but, instead, those who are sick will pay through increa sed deducti bles. We think that there are going to be user fee s in home care.

Now, the gov ernm ent is putting out a lot of propaganda denying this, but we have the Treasury Board docum ents that were given to us which show that there will be core services which will be free and then there will be user fee s fo r the noncore services that are free. It is just a matter of time before the gov ernm ent implements this. In the field of education, I believe that my constituents in Burr ows, the vast majority are opposed to the attack on teachers and giving them the right to strike.

In the area of employment, we see almo st nothing in this budget that is going to help the large numbers of people in Burrows cons tituency who are unemployed. We think the gov ernm ent could be doing much, much more . In fact, they have continued to cut employment creation programs over the years and cut access programs like New Careers, cut funding fo r students at places like Winnipeg Education Centre.

They eliminated SOSAR, which helped single parents go to university and have their education paid, and now it is much, much more difficult fo r individuals, particularly those on social assistance, to get an education in order to be independent and get off social assistance, which is what this government continually talks about, being indep endent . This gov ernm ent is making it harder and harder fo r people who want to be independent to do so. In spite of all these cuts, there is a 16 percent increase to Information Servi ces , and there is a $1 00,000 cut to Making Welf are Work .

They are down to one program in the area of job creation and family services, and they cut $100,000 out of it. Finally, in talking about my constituents in Burr ows, there is really nothing in here that will enhance personal safety. In fact, I do not think this government gets it when it comes to understanding the relationship between poverty and crime. I think as this government drives more and more people into poverty and reduces their social assistance rates , it is putting more and more pressme on them, and sane of these individuals are going to turn in unhealthy ways to crime.

Certainly no one in this community or in this party condones that, but I think it is an inevitable result of this gov ernm ent's policies and a very distressing result. I think something that criminologists could give us statistics on to show that there is a correlation, and if poverty incr eases, then-[interj ection] I always thought the member fo r Turtle Momtain (Mr. Tweed) had good judgment. I hope we do not have to come back to this, but I think as the poverty statistics worsen, we will see an increase in crime . (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) In conclusion, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I would like to talk about the amendment to the government 's motion which my Leader has moved and says that we theref ore regret this budget breaks every key election promise by (

a) reducing program spending by tens of millions of dollars despite the Premier 's Plan Manitoba commitment to maintain overall spending at $4.465 billion until the 1998-99 fiscal year. We hope, I think all Manitobans hope, that when gov ernm ents run in election campaigns and make premises, that they will keep those promises .

I think we have seen this not to be true in the April 1995 election, so the second part of the amendment is that, " as a result, this gov ernm ent is cutting vital funds fo r public education, reducing support fo r the poo rest children and families, reducing advanced training, education and job oppor tunities, reducing support to rural and agricultural communities, and making a mockery of the Premier 's solemn election oath that he would not cut health care services ; and as a consequence, the gov ernm ent has thereby lost the confidence of the House and the people of Manitob a." I think particularly of the TV ads where the Premier promised not to cut health care, and the only reason for that ad was that the gov ernm ent knew that our party was more credible on the issue of health care and also on jo b creation which the governm ent did a flip-flop on and ran on job creation.

We have seen almost no job creation since the election, and we have seen numerous broken

April 4, 1996 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 537 promises in the area of heath care, and the governm ent will pay a price for this. They are paying a price for it now in the polls, and they will pay a price for it next time at the polls. We believe that people will finally realize that they were deceived during the election and will vote differently next time and vote an NDP governm ent instead of a Tory cutback governm ent. Thank you. Mr. Denis Rocan (Gladstone): Sir, I find it very fitting here this afternoon that I get this opportunity to speak right after the honourable member for Burr ows.

I wondered if I would take a run at the honourable member because I believe it was yesterday or the day before when I had the good fortune of running into the honourable member in the hallway. The honourab le member, I am sure he is quite aware of the quote that he decided that he was just going to tiy and lambast me with about what my governm ent has done to his poor constituents. I believe that the quote would be something to the effect that-and I would ask the honourab le member to correct me ifi am wrong-your governm ent is rubbin g the faces of my constituents right into the dirt.

That would be fairly accurate . For that reason and for that reason alone, I take this opportunity to stand here today to try and correct that sort of information that the honourab le member is going around his constituency with and I am assuming because of the nature of the beast that we are, the honourable member has no other choice but to sort of portray that sort of a picture of the budget that was brought in by the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Stefanson) the other day.

So I will take an opportunity, Sir, just to tiy and correct some of this information or try and figure out why you would want to take that opportunity to run around and-I do not want to use the word mistruth. I will not use that word, but some of this misinformation that I believe honestly is getting out there .

It is strange for me to be able to stand here today because it has been an awfully long time since I have had the opportunity to speak in this House, an awfully long time, but it does give me great pleasure to rise today to respond to the budget, one which has reflected the desire of Manitobans for a governm ent that will provide prudent financial management, strong economic development initiatives and a sincere commitment to the delivery of programs and services to the citizens of Manitoba. It has taken me several years to be able to make that statement here in this Legislature.

I was very fortunate to have been the servant of this House for many years, and I had to rely on the knowledge of certain individuals within government who were in positions of trust and authority to accurately bring forward certain government initiatives that I knew would be beneficial, not only to the province of Manitoba but to also include the constituents of Gladstone. I had to remain silent while these decisions were taken by the House. I took no

part in the formation of any initiatives that the governm ent was prop osing. I laid my trust and that of my constituents in the hands of the ma jority. Now I have the luxwy of saying, since our government first gained office, our priorities have remained firm and our commitment to Manitobans has not wavered. Our goal has been and will continue to be to provide the necessary framework to allow Manitobans to adapt to changing circum stances, to build a province which will benefit Manitobans now and in the future. Notre

loi sur 1' equilibre budgetaire est la clef de voiite de ce cadre. Pendant les neuf dernieres ann ees, nous n' avons augmente aucun des impots principaux, nous avons consacre chaque dollar supplementaire a nos priorite s: les depenses sur les services dans les domaines de !'education, de la sante et des services al a famille, et nous avons augmente les depenses en capital a des niveaux reco rds . N ous avons pu faire cela grace a une gestion fiscale prudente et l'etablissement des priorites en matiere de depenses. [Translation) Our balanced budget law is the keystone to this framework.

For the last nine years, we have not raised any of the major taxes. We have focused every extra dollar on the spending priorities of education, of health care and family services, and we have increased capital spending to record levels. We have been able to do this through prudent fiscal management and by e�tablishing our spending prioritie s. [English] In fact, our total spending in the key areas of health, education and family services has increased by $990 million since we first took office. We were able to do

538 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 4, 19 96 this and still produce th

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-2-12
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 2nd hansardpdf 12.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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