LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 9 May, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Comm ittee on Economic Development. MR. CLERK, W.

Remnant: Your Comm ittee met on Thursday, May 9, 19 85 at 10:00 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider the Annual Reports of the Communities Economic Development Fund, Channel Area Loggers Ltd. and Moose Lake Loggers Ltd. Mrs. Bernice O'Connor, Chairman of the Board, Mr. Hugh Jones, General Manager, Mr. Alec Musgrove, Assistant General Manager and Treasurer, and Mr. Michael Fisher, Receiver, provided such information as was required by Members of the Committee with respect to the Communities Economic Development Fund.

Information with respect to all matters pertaining to Channel Area Loggers Ltd. was provided by Mr. Lester Everett, Chairman of the Board, Mr. George Kemp, Manager , and Mr. Gordon P. Trithart, Secretary­ Treasurer. Mr. R.J. Kivisto, General Manager and Mr. Gordon P. Trithart, Secretary-Treasurer provided such information as was requ ired by Members of the Comm ittee with respect to Moose Lake Loggers Ltd. The fullest opp ortunity was accorded to all Members of the Committee to seek any information desired.

The Annual Reports of the Co mmuniti es Economic Development Fund, Channel Area Loggers Ltd. and Moose Lake Loggers Ltd. were adopted for the fiscal year ended March 31 , 19 84. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. C. SANTOS: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Concordia, that the Report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Mi n ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

For the information of honourable members, the University of Manitoba, Faculty of Agriculture, has supplied us with their copy of the 31 st Annual Progress Report, dated January, 1985; and as well, the Manitoba Hog Producers Marketing Board wis hes to have honourable members have this report for them, the 20th Annual Report for the year ended December, 1984. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm honoured to present the first ever Annual Report of the Department of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . .

Introduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery. We have a delegation from Mexico, and I apolog ize in advance for the pronunciation. There is the Honourable Olea and His Excellency Andres de Oteyza, Mr. Vidali, Dr. Marquez, Mr. Sainz, Mr. Jacques, Mr. Brooks, Mr. Smiley, Mr. Badani and Mrs. Schultzki. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. Also in the gallery there are 40 students of Grade 9 standing from the Glenwood Junior High School under the direction of Mr.

Houssin, and they are from the constituency of St. Vital. There are 15 students of Grades 5 and 6 standing from the Lavallee School under the direction of Mrs. Dion. The sc hool is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Riel. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. · ORAL QUESTIONS Credit rating, Manitoba - additional cost to taxpayers MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. For the second time in the term of this addmin istration, the credit rating of Manitoba has been dropped.

My question to the Minister of Finance is, since the government still has some 700 billion to 800 billion to borrow in this fiscal year, can the Min ister of Finance give the House some estimate of what additional costs might be incurred by the taxpayers of Manitoba as a consequence of this reduction in credit rating? 1746

Thursday, 9 May, 1985 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm advised that we're looking at roughly a maximum of one-eighth of 1 percent in some markets. In a number of markets, the change will not have any impact whatsoever. Just to illustrate, today existing Manitoba bonds are trading in a fashion no different from the way in which they were trading yesterday in relation to any of the other provinces. It has not had an impact and we can't find an impact on the other side, Mr.

Speaker, because during the Roblin years, for instance, our credit rating with Moody's was below what it is today with Moody's; that is, from 19 50 to 19 74, we had a single A rating from Moody's; 19 74, it went to A 1; in 1975, it went to AA. It is now at A 1, being above where it was during those years A MEMBER: Just answer the question. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think it's an important . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Lakeside on a point of order. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, the Member for Turtle Mountain asked a very specific question as to what additional costs the recent credit rating drop would impose on the taxpayers of Manitoba. We're not asking for a recitation of history dating back to 19 74. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. That is not a point of order. The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The point I was trying to make is that in examining our borrowing records since 19 74, we are unable to discern a positive impact on Manitoba in any significant way, of that particular change.

One can presume that, similarly, coming back half a notch, as compared to where we were before 197 4, also will have a fairly minimal impact. In fact, in this particular year, on a very conservative basis, we're referring to one-eighth of 1 percent in some markets, specifically the U.S. markets, not the Japanese market, not the European market - (Interjection) - Do you want the answer? I believe there are Manitobans out there who are concerned. It's obvious that the Member for Sturgeon Creek isn't among them. MR. J. DOWNEY: Call an election so they can put their concerns to rest. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the Min ister of Finance is quoted as saying that it might cost an additional $7 million a year this year for taxpayers in Man itoba. Upon what does he base that statement? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, that was on the assumption that there would be no change in rates and over the years, once one had the full amount of debt at the new rate. Because remember this year we still have - the bulk of our debt doesn't change in any way - all of the debt that's been incurred up until now as the member knows.

What we're talking about is any new debt or any renewals of existing loans and certainly in this current year it will not be $7 million or anywhere near that. But at the outside limit some years down the line when all of the existing debt is renewed, it could theoretically go up to that amount. I'll try to get a more specific number for this year. I believe that it would be probably well under $1 million and that's considerably less than some other impacts that we have on a day-to-day basis. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, since Manitoba has suffered two reductions in its credit rating in one term which I believe is unprecedented, it comes at a most inopportune time when the government is going to be borrowing $3 billion to build Limestone, would the Min ister consider that an addi tional borrowing expenditure of ev'en fifteen-one-hundredths of 1 percent, which over the term in the Northern States Power contract, would add over $12 0 mill ion to the cost of borrowing, would the Minister consider that significant? HON. V. SCHROEDER: No, Mr. Speaker, I wouldn't accept that at all.

It assumes all borrowing being done at one time in a market where there is an impact and that's simply not something that I would accept as a number that would be anywhere near being accurate. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Minister of Finance. Does he not consider that a rating, a credit rating given to any borrower, whether it's the Province of Manitoba or a private corporation or the government or a country - does he not consider that that is significant?

Because what the Minister seems to be telling us is that despite the fact that we've had two reductions in our credit rating, it's not going to make any difference to our borrowing cost. Does he not recognize the significance of an international credit rating? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, many things go into rates other than credit ratings. I'll give two examples. One is the recent Canadian borrowing - (Interjection) Could the Member for Sturgeon Creek just keep cool !or a minute?

One is the recent borrowing by the Province of Manitoba in the Canadian Ca pital markets, which came in at exactly the same time, on the same day, as !he City of Toronto borrowing. The City of Toronto borrowing was at a greater expense than the Province of Manitoba borrowing, but the City of Toronto has a AAA and the Province of Manitoba was, at that time, at AA. Sim ilarly, when we were borrowing in Japan recently, the identical thing happened with respect to a borrowing by the Province of Manitoba as compared to Air Canada.

Air Canada has a better credit rating; the Province of Manitoba had a lower net effective rate of borrowing. 1747

Thursday, 9 May, 1985 So these things are not necessarily identical. There are many other factors that go into these things other than one particular credit agency's rating of a province. Sometimes, those credit rating agencies have made some mistakes as to fact. Sometimes, they are not comp letely accurate in terms of their assessment of what is happening in a particular area, other times they are. Credit rating, Manitoba - proposed chan ges to upgrade MR. B. RANSOM: I have a question for the First Min ister, Mr. Speaker.

Given the fact that the credit rating has been knocked down twice during the administration of his government, largely as a consequence of the slow growth and high sp ending in this province, what does the First Minister propose to do to change the course of direction in this province and to stem this decline in the international credit worthiness of our province at a time that we are abou t to undertake a $3 bi ll ion hydro-ele ctric development? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speak er, the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain bases his question on faulty premises.

The A-plus rating announced by Moody's is not as a result of high spending and the honourable member knows that full well. Mr. Speaker, this government is going to proceed along on a prudent course of action that will not respond to credit rating as though the credit rating companies are going to direct policy in the Province of Manitoba. They might very well do so, Mr. Speaker, insofar as honourable members across the way.

I would like honourable members across the way to indicate what they would do, what taxes would they increase, what massive spending would they implement in the Province of Man itoba, what hosp itals would they close, what schools would they close. I think the questions that should be answered if honourable members want to raise government policy, in that they want to suggest they would do something differently is for them to indicate, Mr. Sp eaker, how they would deal with the present situation . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: . . . Mr. Sp eaker, let them not hide MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H.

PAWLEY: . . . let them not hide behind a hidden agenda. I know they don't like having their hidden agenda raised in this Chamber, Mr. Speak er, but I will continue to raise their hidden agenda . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. H. PAWLEY: . . . and challenge them to tell us what they would do. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, since during the period that this government has been in power, including this fiscal year, the government real expenditures have risen at a rate four times as great as the growth of the economy, the public service debt cost has gone from $11 4 million to $300 mill ion. Does the First Min ister consider that prudent management of the province's affairs? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance will be delighted to respond to the fauity premises that you're using in this Chamber. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'm really surprised at this nonsense coming out of the mouth of the Member for Turtle Mountain. I'm quoting now from Moody's, the people who have decided to reduce the credit rating of the Province of Manitoba, on Page 1 of their report, "Revenues have increased modestly, although the province still has considerable flexibil ity in its future revenue options as the tax burden remains below that of many other provinces.

The expend iture growth trend has been similar to that of the economy in recent years." They go on to say, "The expenditure growth trend has been similar to that of the economy in recent years." I'll go on. On Page 4 of the report, "Expressed as a proportion of gross domestic product, the provincial debt is nearly average for all provinces." Page 11 , "It is troublesome that there are," - and this is something that I have spoken about frequently, Mr. Speaker, quote, "It is troublesome that there are few signs of financial improvement despite a recent upturn in the economy.

Revenues, especially corporate income tax, have not grown substantially. The province still has some flexibil ity in its future revenue options as its tax levels remain moderate by national standards. Expenditures have grown at levels similar to the economy in recent years and debt service levels remain satisfactory.'' That's contained in that report and, Mr. Speaker, recently the Leader of the Op position was addressing an audience in Winnipeg saying that what was needed about Manitoba and our economy is the truth. Well, the truth is, Mr. Speaker, that bunch is phony as a three dollar bill.

He got up and said he was eliminating taxes and .. . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I would remind honourable members that an answer to a question should not be a speech. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: A final question to the First Min ister, Mr. Speaker. Is the First Min ister content with the fact that his government is the only one that has suffered this reduction in credit rating, even though others were under consideration? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The question asked for an opin ion. If the 1748

Thursday, 9 May, 1985 honourable member wishes to rephrase his question to seek information, he may do so. Debt - Manitoba's accumulated general purpose MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Min ister of Finance with respect to the general purpose debt of the province, and that is excluding self-sustaining debt and Manitoba Hydro debt and other direct and guaranteed debt. In the first 11 2 years of Confederation, Mr. Speaker, this province accumulated a general all-purpose debt of $1 .345 bill ion.

Could the Min ister of Finance indicate what the accumulated general purpose debt will be at the end of this fiscal year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, possibly I should send another copy of the Budget document over to the Member for St. Norbert. All those figures have been dealt with in that particular document and I indicated previously, quoting from Moody 's - and we don't have to quote Moody 's - we've been saying this for a long time that our debt, basically, is somewhere in the middle with respect to the provinces.

It's better than some and worse than others, and what it breaks down to is that the wealthier provinces have less debt - Ontario and those to the west of us - and the poorer provinces have more debt and that's basically the Maritime Provinces and the Province of Quebec. That's no secret; we've known that for a long time. Mr. Speaker, there's a suggestion that we've had two drops in the credit rating from this agency. The agency waited several years after the other agency dropped the rating. That has happened in other jurisdictions as well.

It's not something that is only happening to the Province of Manitoba; and to suggest that is so is simply, again, mistating history as the members opposite are so prone to do. The Member for St. Norbert is moaning and groaning today about our debt. The other day he was in committee, Mr. Speaker, telling people that we shouldn't charge so much for Land Titles searches, shouldn't charge so much for liquor, we should charge so much for other services. He wanted more money for the women's services in the province because his federal compatriots were getting off of that particular set of funding and so.

They want more spending; they keep asking for more spending, decreases in fees. They want to decrease taxes. They can't have it all those ways, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance neglected to answer the question. Mr. Speaker, could the Min ister of Finance confirm that the general purpose debt accumulated in the first 11 2 years of Confederation by the Province of Manitoba in the amount of $1 .345 billion will have been increased 150 percent under four years of New Democratic Party Government to a total of $3.375 billion? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I'm not going to confirm anything that those people opposite suggest to me, but what I will confirm, Mr. Speaker, is that that group when they were in office, they ran for office on the basis that they would reduce our debt and during their term in office they significantly increased our debt. They ran for office on the basis they would decrease the deficit; in their final year of office, they had the largest deficit that had been accumulated by any government in the province until that time. At the time we took over, the books . . .

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. 'I/. SCHROEDER: . . . they handed to us in December of 198 1 for the 1982 year showed a $500 million deficit on the books at that time based on expenditure proposals asked for by the former Min ister of Finance in April of 198 1. It took them seven or eight months to get to over $500 mill ion of projected deficit. Let not anyone suggest that that group could have done any better. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: A question to the Minister of Finance.

Does the Min ister of Finance know of any previous occasion other than for the fiscal year'83-84 when the Provincial Auditor refused to approve the accounts of the province? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, we'll go over that very carefully this afternoon. In 1982-83 was the first year since before the Lyon Government took office that we had a certification without qualification of the books of the Province of Manitoba. The Auditor of the province said for the first time . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: . . . since before the Lyon Government was in office that finally things had been done in the way that he had been asking that group to do over that period of time. In 1983 -84, Mr. Speak er, the Auditor told the government, told the public, that he would have certified the books in the same way he had done in the previous year had we referred to the combined Capital and Operating Deficit at the bottom line of the last page rather than the second from the bottom line. That number was there, Mr.

Speaker, it was there even so clear that even a Tory could have found it, but the Auditor wanted it at the bottom.' 1749

Thu rsday, 9 May, 1985 We said that there is a difference between Capital and Operating, as indeed, other groups quite frequently say. I have here a statement from Freda Ackerman, who is a Vice President of Moody's, who indicated some time ago, indeed, - I can't seem to locate it just now - but she clearly made the statement that there is a very distinct difference between Current and Capital Expenditures and they make the effort to separate those two out.

Maybe the members of the opposition don't, but when they don't do that, that's when they find savings by renting build ings from their friends rather than buildi ng office build ings. For instance, the one being a lower deficit for the one year . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. V. SCHROEDER: . . . the other being a lower for all time. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Oil and Gas leases - sale of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Acting Min ister of Energy and Mines.

I understand there were some encouraging developments out of the May 8th sale of oil and natural gas leases. I was wondering if the Minister could inform the Legislature exactly what the results were? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the member for that question. I am pleased to inform the member and the other members of the Legislature that yesterday's sale of oil and gas leases will generate $2, 145,959 in total revenue to the Province of Manitoba. This is an increase, Mr.

Speaker, of 49 percent over the previous single sales record of $1 ,440,000 which was set in October of last year. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HON. E. KOSTYRA: The average price that was paid was $236.39 per hectare, Mr. Speaker, which, for those who don't understand that, is $90.60 per acre. Taxes, Prov. of Man.- proposed MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. !ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I am tempted to ask how honourable members opposite voted on that measure when it last was before this House. A question to the Min ister of Finance , Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, this Min ister of Finance , having done away with the Hydro freeze, having introduced the payroll tax, having increased the sales tax, having increased all manner of other user fees in this province, what new tax he is about to impose on the people of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I think the member is confused. He's not in Parliament, he's in Manitoba. There's a budget coming down in a few days in Ottawa. V-E Day Reception MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENlllS: Mr.

Speaker, obviously the honourable members don't want to answer the hard questions. I'll ask an easier question of the First Min ister. Some of us enjoyed the commemorative reception held in the building yesterday in recognition of the day, V-E Day. My question to the First Min ister is, why is it that members only got invited at about 2 o'clock that afternoon when the First Min ister was making his statement? My other question is, why was the Lieutenant­ Governor not invited? Was there any particular reason? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, in regard to the second question, it wasn't Decoration Day as is May 26th, at which the Lieutenant-Governor will be present along with the government representatives. This was an informal government occasion. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, if indeed the honourable member is complaining he didn't receive notice, then I suppose I must express regret to each and every member of this House if they didn't receive earlier notice in respect to the attendance. I must say that I think the occasion went extremely well. I want to, at this point in time, Mr.

Speaker, commend the veterans' organizations, the cadets and the representatives of the Holocaust victims that participated in the cermonies, to ensure that V-E Day not remain unnoticed in the Province of Manitoba and we reconfirm our commitment as Manitobans, that what happened in the Second World War by way of death and destruction to the victims of the Holocaust must not happen again. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I raised the question only because it was drawn to my attention that with the excellent mil itary band we had there, there was no playing of "The Queen" and some veterans missed it. Provincial election - calling of MR. H. ENNS: My other question to the First Minister, Mr. Speaker, also has to do with tradition and custom. It's my understanding that Her Excellency, the Governor General of Canada, will be visiting Manitoba during the month of June. Tradition has it that elections aren't called when Governors General are visiting a province.

Would it be the intention of this government to honour that tradition, Mr. Speaker? 1750

Thursday, 9 May, 1985 HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Honourable Member for Lakeside for drawing that to my attention. I gather he is quite desirous that I not break tradition and call an election during the time that the Governor General is present. I'll take that under advisement, Mr. Speaker, and I suppose only in the next few days will the honourable member know whether or not I would consider for a moment breaching that tradition. Wife Abuse Program - advertising of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My quest ion is for the Mi ni ster of Community Services. In the May Reader's Digest, there's a page ad on the government's Wife Abuse Program and I was wondering if the Minister could indicate why the government is advertising a community service in a national magazine? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the placement of ads was based on some recognition of what magazines were most read by the target population. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Another question to the Minister. Could she tell the House the cost of this type of ad? HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, I'd be happy to take that as notice. Manitoba Hog Stabilization Program - daily payout of producers MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The other day the Member for Arthur raised a question of me concerning daily payout from the Manitoba Hog Stabilization Program. Mr. Speaker, I wish to advise the honourable member that payouts are made on a quarterly basis from the plan and the last payout made was for the period of January to March, 1985, was for $3.76 per cwt.

This payout is based on the support price of 73.62 less the quarterly price of 69.86, the average quarterly price. In total 1.257 mill ion was paid to producers on 195,500 hogs. The proportion of premiums collected was on the basis of 2 percent government premium paid in and a 5 percent premium by producers. The payouts in terms of the next quarter or the period that we're in, will, of course, not be calculated until the end of June when the average market price over the period of April till the end of June will be calculated.

At that time we will know what the actual payout will be and how much will have to be payout in total, Sir. Beaver dams - removal policy MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Min ister of Natural Resources. During the review of spending Estimates, the Min ister ind icated there was no change in policy regarding support services to munici p aliti es experiencing beaver problems.

The RM of Swan River reported to me this week that local Natural Resources officials have indicated that due to lack of funding they have withdrawn the support in removing beaver dams from within the municipal ity. I was just wondering if the Min ister can now advise the House if there has been a recent change in a policy within his department? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe there has been, but I'll have to take that matter under advisement. MR. D. GOURLAY: I thank the Min ister and look forward to hearing from him later.

Salt Point Tourist lodge - building of road MR. D. GOURLAY: I have a further question to the Min ister of Northern Affairs. In view of the fact that we probably won't be into the review of spending Estimates of that department for a few days yet or maybe a few weeks, I wonder if the Min ister can advise whether his department contemplates build ing a road into the Salt Point Tourist Lodge for this season? 1751 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Northern Affairs. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, the Department of Northern Affairs is at this time in consultation with the Department of Highways compiling a list of roads that we're building on the resource roads and that is not completed at this time. Comm. for Man. Constitutional Amendment - funding to MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOIERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the First Mini ster in reference to a phantom organization of some one to two years ago called the Committee for Mani �,ha's Constitutional Amendment, was there any provi:icial funding of this organization? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , I'm afraid the honourable member will have to clarify or elaborate what committee he's referring to. I gather that committee was included in the Order for Return and I'm advised that we couldn't identify the organization that the honourable member was referring to.

Thursday, 9 May, 1985 MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I've been waiting for well over a year for a response. I'm simply asking the First Minister if he can indicate to the House - he did respond previously to a question about funding for Manitoba 23 from the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. I'm asking him of a similar organization that sprung up during the Winnipeg plebis cite called the Com mittee for Manitoba's Constitutional Amendment, whether the government provided any funding for that organization. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm afraid that it's as phantom to me as it is to the Honourable Member for Elmwood.

If the Honourable Member for Elmwood wants to provide us more detail, then we could look into it, but at the moment, it's just as phantom to me as it is so acknowledged to be by the Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOIERN: Mr. Speaker, my reference to "phantom" is, people didn 't know where the money came from or who some of the principals were. However, that did not preclude them from buying thousands and thousands of dollars worth of advertising. Address for Papers - SFM and Manitoba 23 MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, my final question is to the House Leader, namely, that I submitted an Address for Papers in regard to this organization and the SFM and Manitoba 23, January of 1984, the House Leader indicated that he now had clearances from those organizations several months ago. What is the proble m? What is the holdup? When will that Address for Papers finally be given to the House? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I wish to correct the honourable member.

I, at no time, suggested that all the clearances had been ob tained, in fact my last answer to him was that that is what we were in the process of doing. Third pa rty clearances, all the co rrespondence and documents have been identified, and we are in the process of obtaining third party clear ances. The honourable member will understand that that does take some time on occasion. We also had some difficulty, Mr. Speaker, and I did identify that when the Address was accepted, with identifying one of the phantom organizations that the Honour able Member referred to in his Address for Papers.

We're still having that difficulty, and if the hono ura ble member is aware of so me secret or phantom organization, as he calls it, and could assist us in preparing the Address for Papers, I'll gladly accept that information from him. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, by way of providing assistance, if my memory serves me co rrectly, the only person identified with that particular organization, that Manitoba Committee for Constitutional Amendment, etc., was Yude Henteleff. I believe Mr. Henteleff identified himself with that organization and, Mr.

Speaker, I must say that I find it impossible to believe that it's taking 15 months to get a clearance for such matters. Casino - study re revenue implications of 200 -day operation MR. SPEAKER: Oral Questions. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the Minister responsible for Lotteries and would ask him, in light of the fact that the Lotteries has built up permanent staff now for casino operating, security, and managerial staff and are still advertising for additional staff, which runs now into the hundreds of thousands of dollars as far as full-time employees, I wonder if the Minister could inform the House whether he or his predecessor commissioned and has received a report which would indicate the revenue implications of running a casino 200 days a year? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm not aware of any study that's been taken with respect to looking at what the member is suggesting, which would be a massive increase in the number of casino days, because at the present time, there is a maximum of 90 casino days that are licensed for ope ration in the City of Winnipeg and this government has no intention at the present time, of doing what the member is suggesting to increase it to anything like he has suggested, not at all, Mr. Speaker. MR. R.

BANMAN: I would ask the Minister, since he suggested that there are imputed motives for my asking the question that I wanted to increase it, to the contrary, my response to that of course is well known. I would ask the Minister whether or not he would inform the Ho use as to whether the number of people that have been hired as full-time operators of casinos, whether those people are being asked to perform other duties within the lotteries field, other than just the duties that they were hired for? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I'm afraid I can't answer that qu estion.

That kind of detailed ques tion is more app ropriate asked when we will have the opportunity, through the Estimates process, to have staff available and have detailed questions on the operations of the lottery and I'd be pleased to answer those questions at that time and provide the member with all the information that he is requesting with respect to the operations of the casinos and the Lotteries Foundation.

What I can tell the member is that the casinos that have been operated by the Manito ba Lotteries Foundation in co-operation with the charitable umbrella groups that have been put in place by this government have ensured that there has been inc reased revenue to those charitable organizations that have participated in those casinos. MR. R. BANMAN: I have some further questions to that with regard to how the casinos are being run and how the funds are being distributed, and will get into that during the Estimates.

But I would ask the Minister further, in light of the fact that the government has expanded casinos to start 1752

Thursday, 9 May, 1985 now at 11 :00 o'clock in the morning, will the government undertake to reduce the number of hours that the casinos are operating, in other words, to start later on in the afternoon, rather than enticing people to start early in the morning to gamble? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Mr. Speaker, I believe 11 o'clock is late in the morning, not early in the morning, at least the hours that I put here, 11 o'clock I consider late in the morning.

The situation is as it is at the present time, where we do allow a maximum of 90 days for the operation of casinos, the adjustment in hours was made to ensure that those casinos ope rate in the most efficient and most productive manner for the charities that are involved so there is no intention to alter any of the other conditions of the ope rations of the casinos. Industrial Mm Installers - status of company MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Minister of Business Development. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yesterday I took as notice a numb er of questions from the Member for Minnedosa, the first of which was a question with respect to Industrial Mills Installations. I had indicated that IMI had in fact completed their work at Manfor - that is the case. The second question was with respect to guarantees. A performance bond is in place and remains in place for a considerable length of time in the event that there should be some flaws in the workmanship or the material.

With respect to his final question as to why all of those companies in B.C. went into receivership, I can only speculate that it's the disastrous economic policies of that government. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, would you please call Bill No. 12 for second reading? SECOND READING BILL NO. 12 - THE CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES ACT HON. M. SMITH presented, by leave, Bill No. 12, The Child and Family Services Act;

Loi sur les services a l'enfant ete a la famille, for second reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I'm very proud today to table a major piece of social legislation, The Child and Family Se rvices Act. This act is the cul mination of three years of review and reform in the Child and Family Services system. This government has progressed along a path of review and reform, which puts us in the forefront of social policy in the area of services to children and their families.

The first step was the finalization of the tripartite agreements and the development of Indian agencies throughout the province. These agencies have assured the involvement of Native communities in resolving their own family prob lems and we are alr eady seeing promising results from this initiative. The second step was the regionalization of Child and Family Service s in the City of Winnipeg . This decentralization was a step long overdue, Mr. Speaker.

Our new community-based agencies will result in greater access to community resources and supports, better pub lic relations, greatly expanded volunteer participation and, ultimately, more effective cost control. The next step in this process of reform is the tabling of this act today, Mr. Speaker. This bill is a significant step forward for Child and Family Services legislation in Manitoba. I'm confident it will become a model for progressive legislation in its field throughout Canada for a good many years to come.

It reflects improvements in current practices and recent developments in the operation of Child and Family Se rvices in Manitoba. There are a number of new provisions, but the bill also cla rifies, consolidates and improves current legislation in several areas. The bill is the result of more than three years of research and consultation with interested persons and groups in the field of child welfare. A Com mittee of Departmental and Agency Members worked for more than two years and received a la rge number of briefs from all over Manitoba. Judge Robert Carr carefully reviewed The Child Welfare Act.

The process leading to the tabling of this legislation included a consultation paper issued last July by my department and widely distributed to interested parties. I met with representatives of a numb er of key o rganizations in Child and Family Services to discuss their concerns, suggestions, and recommendations. Many of their suggestions have been incorpo rated into this bill and I wish to thank and acknowledge the contributions of all those groups that responded to the consultation paper.

This bill also establishes in legislation, several fundamental recommendations of the Kimelman Review Comm ittee on In dian and Metis adoptions and placements. Mr. Speaker, I would like to outline some essential elements of the bill. A fundamental aspect of this legislation is the Declaration of Principles. Honourable memb ers will recognize that, on the whole, the declaration emb odies the traditional principle s governing Child and Family Services practice. It stresses first the best interest of the child as the primary concern of the whole Child and Family Se rvice system.

It sees the family as the basic unit of society, which is vitally impo rtant because most work in Child and Family Services relates to helping families carry out their responsi bilities. 1753

Thu rsday, 9 May, 1985 The declaration reflects the principles that have been a part of the current Child Welfare Act for more than a decade including the long-time bedrock principle of Child Welfare practice that the best interests of the child are a fundamental responsibility of society. It also incorporates others more recently adapted to Child Welfare practice in Manitoba, notably, those concerns relating to services to Natives. The Declaration of Principles is meant to support the act's intended balance of focus on children and families. It will also help develop agency policy, serve as a guide to the

interpretation of the act and assist in judicial and administrative decision-making. In addition, Mr. Speaker, the bill places new emphasis on services to families. This reflects the belief that this government, and of the agencies, that children can be protected best when there is a continuum of service from parent education through counselling and support, homemaker and day care, to protection of children and adoption. If all the elements are not present, the service becomes focused on crisis intervention, which is the most costly and frequently the least effective kind of service.

This bill extends the groundwork laid in the 1974 act and draws on the experiences of other provinces. By stressing the provision of preventive services, our Child and Family Services system will now offer supports to families and children at risk and will frequently avoid the need for more costly and disruptive types of care. However, we have retained and improved provisions for apprehension of children from their homes when there is serious risk to their health or safety. We have also incorporated cultural and linguistic factors throughout the act, notably, in

definitions of "family" and "best interests of the child." This reflects the needs and wishes of Native people and the role of culture in the lives of families throughout the province. Mr. Speaker, I should like to draw the attention of honourable members to some changes in the structure of the act and discuss some sections that we consider most noteworthy. Changes in

definitions will include extended families within the range of families served by agencies, provide a clearer legal basis for the position of Native agencies and Native practices in child care and allow inclusion of the Native placement procedures concerning adoption and foster placements as a regulation. In

Section 4.1(

f) the Director of Child and Family Services is given new powers to hear and receive complaints from persons affected by administrative actions of an agency. Under

Section 4(2)(d), the Director may establish boards to hear those complaints. Unresolved disputes may, of course, still be taken to the Ombudsman, the Minister or the courts. The duties of agencies, in

Section 7, are broadened to give a stronger emphasis to family, preventive and outreach services and permanency planning for children in care.

Part 2 in its entirety addresses services to families. This reflects the commitment of the government and of Manitoba's child caring agencies to protect and enhance family control over family affairs as much as possible. The new act will limit the ability of government to intrude in family affairs except when children are likely to be endangered. In The 1974 Child Welfare Act, a number of voluntary services were included. Among these were day care, homemaker placement, temporary care placement agreements, and voluntary surrender of guardianship.

These services, other pertinent sections that the current act and some new sections have been brought together in a separate part devoted to services to families.

Section 9( 1) provides that families in difficulty may apply for agency help and assistance such as counselling, guidance, supportive educational and emergency shelter services and I quote: ". . . in order to aid in the resolution of family matters, which if unresolved, may create an environment not suitable for normal child development or in which a child may be at risk of abuse . . . "Clearly, we want to support families before, not after a serious breakdown. In

Section 13(4), agencies are given authority to place a parent aide in a parent's or guardian's home, with their consent, to give training in homemaking and child care. This

section will also give legal status to a highly successful Parent Aid Program now operating in Winnipeg. In

Section 14, agencies are given extended authority to enter into and renew voluntary placement agreements with respect to physically and developmentally disabled or older children beyond the control of their parents until the child is 18. Under current legislation, such agreements cannot be extended beyond two years. Mr. Speaker, this will allow parents of disabled children to access services out of the home without losing the guardianship of their children.

The members present today who all have in their constituencies families who require help with the care of disabled children will know how important it is for families to retain the guardianship of children who, for reasons of health or disability, are receiving care outside of the home.

Part 3, which deals with Child Protection gives wider scope to the courts in handling protection matters. Throughout the act, provision is made for uncontested court hearings to be heard by a Master of the Court of Queen's Bench in the Eastern Judicial District, instead of by a judge of that court. Appeals from a Master's decision may be made to a judge. This part also incorporates more comprehensive protective services for children at risk, related particularly but not restricted to child abuse. Honourable members will remember, Mr.

Speaker, that last year this House enacted a number of strong provisions for dealing with child abuse. In keeping with our commitment to protect children from abuse, those provisions have been retained in this bill. As part of strengthened provisions concerning the reporting of child abuse, the act will give the Director of Child and Family Services authority in

Section 18(3) to report to a professional body, a member of that body who has failed to comply with requirements to report suspected abuse. The professional organization is required to investigate the matter.

Section 20 allows an agency to apply for a court order to have a child abuser cease to live in the same premises or have contact with the abused child, instead of removing the child. This provision has been in the New Brunswick legislation for some years and has allowed courts to remove the abuser, rather than the child. We are including this provision in our act. Persons such as members of extended families who have had a long-term significant relationship with a 1754

Thursday , 9 May, 1985 child are given the right, in

Section 31 , to apply for status in protection hearings and to become parties in the proceedings if the court grants status. This bill provides for increased involvement and participation of children in court hearings that affect them.

Section 33(2) provides that children over 12 will be notified about, and generally required to be present, at such proceedings. Judges may appoint counsel for a child if this is deemed necessary. This legal representation is a continuation of the current provision. In

Section 45(3), parents whose child or children are under permanent guardianship, but not placed for adoption, may annually apply to the court for termination of guardianship.

Part 4, on Children in Care, combines a number of sections from the current act, with new provisions to form a separate part. Foster parents will be able to request review of reasons for removal of a foster child from their home, under

Section 51 (2). They may appeal these reasons to the Director of Child and Family Services for a second review. A significant addition to the act is

Section 54, under which the Director of Child and Family Services shall annually review the placement, care and treatment and the permanency plans of every child in agency care. This

section has been added in response to concerns and requests from the community and will ensure that much closer attention is given to the status of all children in agency care.

Part 5, on Adoptions, is a reorganization of adoption legislation, Mr. Speaker, in response to the expectations of society and in the light of experience in the field in the past 10 years or so. The sections on adoption have been rewritten and clarified. They also consolidate the recommendations of the Carr Report that we implemented two years ago. This

part covers a number of types and means of adoptions, adoption by a husband and wife, adoption by long-term common law spouses, adoption by single persons, adoption by the spouse of a natural parent, extended family adoptions, international adoptions, adoptions through an agency, private adoptions, de facto adoptions, adoption of an adult and subsidized adoption.

Section 61 (1 ) will provide that, for all purposes of Manitoba law, adopted children and their adopting parents will be considered to have the same relationship to one another as if the children had been born to the parents. New provisions under

Section 68 will give parents the right to place a child for adoption within their extended family without notification or approval of the Director of Child and Family Services. However, an Order of Adoption from the court is required. This right extends to parents who are minors. Other private adoption placements generally may be undertaken only by adults and only with the prior approval of an agency.

Section 68, Mr. Speaker, was included at the request of the Native community and is closely related to their adoption practices over many generations. The Post Adoption Registry,

Section 74, is being expanded. Mr. Speaker, it will now include registration by adult adoptees, biological parents and adult siblings. This change is being made in response to requests made almost daily by adult adoptees to the Child and Family Support Directorate and agencies throughout the province. They're seeking help in tracing their biological families. We decided we should broaden the provisions governing the registry to better accommodate the feelings of adult adoptees and their biological families. The changes, basically, are an adaptation of provisions found in Saskatchewan legislation.

The Director of Child and Family Services will now be responsible if an adult adoptee so requests for trying to contact immediate members of an adult adoptee's biological family, to facilitate contact if those family members wish it I stress that the director will not seek unregistered adoptees upon request of biological parents or siblings. My officials have been in touch with Saskatchewan officials who have been administering such a provision for three years. They find the provisions a reasonable way to meet the needs of adoptive families, adult adoptees and biological families.

Section 76, on Confidentiality and Access is a completely new section. Concerns had been raised by the community about these issues over the years. With the introduction of voluntary family counselling in the Child and Family Services system and with ever-growing concern about privacy in files, new provisions were clearly required. Information from voluntary service records will be confidential and may be shared outside the agency only with client permission.

This will give voluntary Family Services clients, where there is no allegation or reason to suspect neglect or abuse, the same confidentiality as for medical files. These safeguards represent the evolution of the Child and Family Services system into a fully professional service. The information provisions of the bill will, upon proclamation, give voluntary clients and adult ex-wards access to their files or copies of their files. This access will enable many ex-wards to deal with their past more effectively. It is a process which produces emotional health and growth. Mr.

Speaker, we are aware that providing such access will be a new step for some of the Child and Family Services system. This

section will therefore not be applied retroactively. Summaries of existing files will instead be made available on request to ex-wards. As well, third parties such as professional consultants, and persons who gave information in confidence to the system, will be protected, and this information will not be shared. Similarly, to safeguard the legal process, child protection files will remain closed. The objective of these provisions, Mr.

Speaker, is to protect the privacy of children who are former wards of the system and of families voluntarily receiving services from an agency when there is no protective concern regarding their children. We are following standards similar to those of other professional services assuring adults access to their records and in making agency records much more confidential. Another aspect of this bill deserves special consideration, Mr. Speaker, the place of services, procedures and relations with Native and Native agencies.

First, the principle of the best interests of the child will include cultural and linguistic considerations. This is provided for throughout the act. 1755 Second, the unique characteristics and structure of Native extended families are recognized.

Thursday, 9 May, 1985 Th ird, the tripartite nature of jurisdiction and responsi bility for services to status Indians in Manitoba; namely, Indian bands and their agencies, the Federal Government and the Province, is incorporated and reflected in special sections or modifications of existing provisions. Provision is made for existing tripartite agreements with the Federal Government and Indian bands respecting Indian Child and Family Services. Provision is also made for entering into new agreements.

Certain powers of the province respecting the corporate affairs of agencies will not apply to reserve-based agencies, although these agencies are su bject to provincial aut hority, concerning their standards of service. Agencies serving Indian bands are to be notified of protection hearings concerning status Indian children. Mr. Speaker, in 1982, our government placed a moratorium on out-of-Canada agency adoptions.

We are well aware that this past practice was one with the best of intentions, but in reality, it resulted in shocking dislocation and the absence of any family stability for many Manitoba Indian children. Today, approximately the same num ber of Indian children await adoption as before the moratorium. Mr. Speaker, Manitoba's Native people have met the challenge and have proven that their communities and families will be strengthened and enhanced when they are given the power to resolve their own pro blems.

In view of this, this act makes the moratorium permanent by law, allowing exceptions only in special cases by a specific individual Order-in­ Council. Fourth, the bill recognizes the new role of Native agencies and the commitment of Native communities to operate Child and Family Services in accordance with their traditions and community life.

Our experience has been that the development of Child and Family Services to Indian bands has been aided immensely by the work of the chiefs and band councils in adapting services to the requirements of their people and in working with their people to implement them on the reserves. We believe, Mr. Speaker, that this bill will strengthen commun ity-based Child and Family Services in Manitoba. It will support the efforts of our child-caring agencies to keep children and families together in the community by strengthening the available options to taking children into care.

At the same time, it offers better service for those children who require an agency's care and protection. This bill reflects the efforts of this government to redirect Child and Family Services as well as the efforts of the community and of child caring agencies. The bill charts the firm course that Manitobans of all ethnic groups and cultures want their Child and Family Services to take. I commend this bill to honourable members. MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Niakwa, that the debate on this bill be adjourned.

MOTION presented and carried. 1756 MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: I move, seconded by the Minister of Business Development and Tourism, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted - I'm sorry, before I do that, I understand there might be desire to dispense with Private Members' Hour at 4:30 today? MR. SPEAKER: Is there leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour today? (Agreed) Leave has been given. HON. V.

SCHROEDER: I move, seconded by the Minister of Business Development and Tourism that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Finance, and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Business Development and Tourism. CONCURRENT COM MITTEES Of SUPPLY SUPPLY - BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, D.

Scott: Committee, come to order. The committee is going to start the Estimates Review for the Department of Business Development and Tourism. The Minister, Mr. Storie, has an introductory statement to make. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. It's my privilege to be here to review the Department of Business Development and Tourism Estimates for the coming fiscal year. Before we begin, as is customary, I would like to put a few remarks on record. I'd like to begin by framing, in my view, the small business context.

The last number of number of years have been tumultuous ones, to say the least, and have been difficult ones for small business in particular. We have come through a recessionary period which has had a dramatic impact on business across the country. I think that it's fair to say that small business, more than most business, because of its resilience has responded quite well to the recession. That doesn't mean to say that it hasn't left scars.

I think foremost in the minds of small businessmen today is the concern about rising interest rates and the fluctuation of interest rates, but I think there are positive signs that interest rates are going to modify, stabilize somewhat. I believe that on the whole small business, and therefore Manitoba, has reason to be optimistic.

In general terms, while the Canadian economic recovery remains in question, I think Manitoba's record of success in rebuilding our basic industries and laying the foundation to strengthen the economy is evident by the economic expansion which took place in virtually all major industrial sectors of our economy in 1984.

Thu rsday , 9 May, 1985 Manitoba's employment growth rate is more than triple the national rate in comparison with pre-recession employment levels. Some 12 ,000 more Man itobans are now working than in mid-198 1. Our province, with just over 4 percent of Canada's population, has accounted for over 13 percent of the new jobs. In contrast, in five provinces, there are fewer jobs than prior to the recession.

I suppose of more interest to the small business people of the province is the Statistics Canada outlook for 1985 , which indicates that for the third consecutive year there will be strong investment performance, in fact the best overall capital performance of all the provinces. I think that it's important to note that that investment confiden ce, I will call it, goes across sectors. We find that the primary sector saw an 11 .6 increase in investment in 1984; and the projections are for a further 6.4 percent growth.

Manufacturing saw a 30 percent increase in 1984; and the projections are for a 21 .6 percent growth in 1985. The transp ortation, communication and utility companies saw an 8.8 percent growth in 1984; and are looking to a 5.7 percent increase in 1985. The trade, finance and commercial segment of the economy saw a 20.4 percent growth in 1984; and it's projected that that growth will continue at the rate of approximately of 16.6 percent.

The Provincial Government, in carrying out its mandate to support the development of our important basic services is also increasing its capital investment in the province substantially. I suppose if you couple that with the growth in housing, the growth in mineral exploration, the growth, in particular, in our investment in oil and gas in the province, the investment in mining, mineral extraction in the North, one can only conclude that the province, far from being stagnant, has been and continues to be in the positive mode.

I think that augurs well for small business and I think small businessmen sense that they have an excellent opportunity to tap into some of the major economic expansions that are occurring in the province, whether that be Limestone or whether that be oil exploration and development, whether that be potash or whatever. I should say that the private sector has certainly shown their share of confidence in business in the province. Private sector investment increased 9.8 percent in Manitoba last year, which is nearly three times the percentage increase in Canada as a whole.

So clearly, if investment intentions are any indication of the confidence the private sector has in Manitoba, that conf idence is growing. I will be making some further comments on the other side of the department, the Tourism side, and I think that, all in all, the statistics, the economic indicators for that particular segment of our economy are equally as positive. If I could just leave that aside for a moment and deal somewhat further with the activities of the Sma ll Business Development

section of the department, I think that it would be fair to say that we had an exceptional year and look forward to continuing in our role of supporting small bus iness activity throughout the province. We provide support in a whole range of ways that go from individual counselling to design assistance and I'm sure that we will have time to discuss those ind ividually as we proceed through the Estimates process. In terms of strictly information, over the past couple of years, the Department of Business Development and Tourism has responded to more than 22,000 requests for bus iness information.

We have provided consulting services to more than 3,000 clients. We provide a number of services, including crisis support and have instituted a Smal l Business Newsletter which is received by approximately 30,000 individuals in the province. We have also developed with the Manitoba Design Institute, the Premier's Design Awards Competition, which has been extremely successful and a credit to the Manitoba Design Institute. They are working on what I believe will be a phenomenal awards ceremony later on in 1985 which will encompass the thoughts and the input of an international group of individuals.

A number of new initiatives have been added to the department's respons ibilities with respect to small business. They include a Community Development Program which is going to work in concert with our recent thrust in the Regional Development Corporation area, and a new initiative which deals with, what we call, threshold companies.

If I might expand for a minute on the idea of our initiative with threshold companies, there are a number of Manitoba companies who by reason of the fact that they have a particularly well designed product or because of their particular circumstance in the market have an opportunity to be growth companies. The department intends to be working with a number of Manitoba businesses to see if we can turn that potential into real jobs , into real opportunities for more Man itobans by expanding the horizons of those companies.

Programs like the Gain and Equity Sharing Program which have received, albeit slow recognition have, nevertheless, received important recognition and I believe will be a source of inspiration for working people and for companies who take advantage of that program. I will be speaking I'm sure at length at some later time about the Youth Entrepreneurship Program and its complementary program the Youth Business Start Program. The department also has held in'84 and will be suppor ting again a Career Symposium which is designed to make young Man itobans familiar with the role of small business in the province.

I had the opportunity earlier this year to speak at the Career Symposium. I found it to be an exciting opportunity. Certainly, I think that there is much that we as a department can do to promote small bus iness to youth. It's an avenue that has not been traditionally part of the information package that is available to young people, but I think from the response we've had from counsellors, from school divisions, from individual young peop le, it gives us a sense that this particular program will be expanding and will be providing new avenues to young people.

The Regional Development Corpora tions, the department has spent considerable effort over the past couple of years developing the role of our Regional Development Corporations and I bel ieve that because of a lot of hard work on the part of staff and because of a certain degree of enthusiasm on the part of individuals who are working with and for the RDCs that we will continue to expand their mandate and continue to improve their ability to respond to the needs of their particular communities. ,757

Thu rsday, 9 May, 1985 One of the most successful programs that has been off ered by the Business Development

Section has been the Venture Capital Program. I know that members of the Committee are familiar with some of the successes of the Venture Capital Program. To date, app roximately $2.4 million in equity investment by the government has generated more than 6 million in private sector investment and while the program is funded by the Jobs Fund, the progr am delivere d by Business Development has been extremely well received and extremely successful. The Interest Rate Relief Program, while winding down, Mr.

Chairman, has done its job in supporting many small businesses, 600-plus in number, over the last couple of years and has led to the maintenance of app roximately 2,000 jobs or in that area and has been extremely well received and I think timely.

One of the interesting sidelights to the Interest Rate Relief Program was the acknowledgment by many of the businesses that were involved, that while the assistance provided through the Interest Rate Relief Program was timely and was needed, the suppor t that came by way of counselling, management advice, was also important in the fact that the vast majo rity, over 90 percent of the businesses who sought assistance, were able to continue to operate.

Befo re I move on to the Tourism par t of the department, I have sought the permission of the critic, the Member for River Heights, to display a number of posters and an ad campaign for the current tourism year and we have on videotape some TV advertising that wm be - in fact I think is commencing - and I would like the committee to have the opportunity to view that, if there is agreement for that to happen, Mr. Chairman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Well, on that very point, it's been brought to my attention and I recollect quite clea rly - (Interjection) - Gentlemen, please. HON. J. STORIE: There's agreement. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: There may be agreement but the Rules Committee adopted very clearly on February 26th of this year, that the use of displays and audio-visual materials was not to be used in committee. The Opposition House Leader , as a matter of fact, in his statement felt that it may well lead to additional abuses down the road where the audio-visual material, although it could be of assistance to members of the committee, could very well be aimed not so much at members of the committee, but at the media and public or whomever else.

It is for that reason that the Rules Committee very quickly - it didn't even take up one page of debate - decided to set aside the allowance of audio-visual aids in committee and to maintain the rules as they existed previously, which is the provision of no audio-visual aids. So I'm going to have to, I believe, take the prerogative of the Chair and to rule that the procedures as set down, with due apologies to the Minister and his critic, that the displays that we have presently be removed and that the audio-visual as well be removed. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. HON. S.

USKIW: Mr. Chairman, in light of the fact that staff have already gone to an awful lot of difficulty assembling the visual information, why don't we simply note that that is the rule and just not readmit visual aids at the next sitting, but leave them here for the present time? Why don't we rule that they are not admittable but not require that they be removed at the present time. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The House has provision and it's difficult for a committee to overrule a House rule. That's the difficulty I have as the Chair.

But I will allow it and then we'll perhaps make reference back to the Rules Committee at its next meeting, having had this occasion as well, that if there is unanimous agreement by the members of the committee to permit the displays to remain for this afternoon's sitting only, and as well, if you want to see the audio-visual display on the VC R, if it's unanimous agreement of the committee, then I shall accept that. If there is that agreement, I do feel somewhat nervous in setting a precedent by doing this.

I don't know that it's a healthy precedent for us to be setting, especially since just two months ago the Rules Committee rejected it very clearly. The Member for River East. MR. W.. STEEN: Heights. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: River Heights, I'm sorry. MR. W.. STEEN: Mr.

Chairman, I can see a problem with the audio equipment as far as with Hansard, my suggestion then perhaps we can take some advice from the former Deputy Clerk, because if we were to what we call recess and watch the audio and then reconvene the committee and therefore it won't be recorded on Hansard whatever is said on the audio and then we will start up Hansard again and start the committee back in the committee room. I certainly have no objections to the posters being here.

I made reference to the Minister of Resources that there seems to be a lot or orange used in them and then the Minister of Cultural Affairs says that a few years ago the blue was the predominant colour. So they do look very nice anyway. So I would suggest maybe, Mr. Chairman, that if seeking some assistance from staff, that maybe we could take a short recess, see the video presentation and then resume back in committee. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Okay, committee shall recess for the period that it takes us to watch the video and I would ask that both the posters and the video, when we come back in, be removed.

Committee recess. Recess MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Committee, come back to order. The Minister of Tourism. HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairpe rson, I appreciate your indulgence. The posters will be removed and the audio-visual equipment as well. 1758

Thur sday , 9 May, 1985 The promotion this year, we hope, will build upon some tourism strength that we had last year. Tourism generally provides approximately 29,000 Manitobans in a variety of industries with employment. 1984 saw a moderate improvement in the number of people that shared our heritage and our culture and natural resources. The total number of visitors in Manitoba increased by approximately 11 0,000 in 1984 and the number of overseas visitors to Manitoba in 1984 also increased approximately 10 percent.

Spending by travellers in the province increased from $529. 1 million to $621.5 million, and the number of in­ province trips grew by 4 percent, to a total of 4.5 million trips. The department has initiated a number of programs that we believe follow from a strategy which is to increase the potential of the tourism industry to contribute to the province in excess of 1 billion by the turn of the century. Mr. Chairman, the strategy for tourism growth in Manitoba has been developed, we feel, in consultation with the private sector, with industry groups , with those who have an interest in tourism.

This strategy generally forms the basis for programming under the new Tourism Agreement and certainly guides the ongoing activities within the Department of Business Development and Tourism. We believe that we must concentrate generally on our strengths. We feel that we have to compete with international tourism destinations. We need to have quality product. We have to accentuate the fact that we have something unique to offer and we feel that that's an important part of our strategy.

We have instituted or will be increasing our emphasis on the co-operative tourism advertising that was undertaken in 1984-85 and we're going to be putting more emphasis on it in the coming year. The computer-based Telidon Information System, which was tested on a pilot basis at a number of our Visitor Reception Centres, we believe was extremely successful and we'll be continued this year. We're going to improve that facility by providing a computer-driven Telidon system.

The introduc tion of the international toll-free telephone inquiry service was extremely successful, in fact we received a 38 percent increase in the number of inquiries, the total number of inquiries growing to 37,000. I suppose that for the next five years much of the activity in the Department of Tourism will be based or centred around the new Tourism Agreement which is due to be signed on Monday, May 13th, as most people know. The old agreement called "Destination Manitoba," I believe was essentially successful in its mandate.

I think we certainly broadened the scope of the facilities that we can offer to tourists and we believe that the some $1 4 million in investment that occurred through the new agreement contributed in a very real way to the health of the tourism industry generally. We look forward to implementing the new agreement with the Federal Government. We believe it takes us in a new and exciting direction and will certainly have major benefits for those involved in the industry, but spinoff benefits to all Manitobans. I think that concludes my opening remarks, Mr. Chairperson. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

The Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: I have a few brief comments on the Minister's remarks and say that he makes mention about how Manitoba and Manitoba business has survived the recessionary period and come through a somewhat difficult period and that Manitoba business has held its own.

I think that if we look back at the last hundred years we'll find that Manitoba, particularly small business people, the entrepreneurship that is imbedded in them is something which is second to no other place and that Manitoba business people have an outstanding record of dealing with the ups and the downs and fortunately, in Manitoba, we don't have the great ups and downs such as particular places like Alberta have had in past years.

The Minister makes reference to general growth, both in the manufacturing field and other areas of business, and I say to the Minister that he could see even greater growth if only a few steps were taken by his government and that would be that taxation, such as the payroll tax were eliminated, which discourages businesses from hiring people, and if regulations were looked at. I note that in the Province of Saskatchewan, the Small Business and Development Department there has abolished up to 700 regulations since they've been in office.

There is nothing more discouraging to a business person who is trying to earn an honest dollar than to have government of any kind trying to overregulate his or her life. It's difficult enough to make a living in business today without being overregulated; so if taxation and regulations were reviewed by the government, his job as Minister of Business Development and Tourism would be such a snap that it would be phenomenal, Mr. Chairman. The payroll tax is a disc ouraging tax to the businessman in the area of Tourism.

It was mentioned in Consumer Affairs, it was mentioned the other night in the Attorney-General's Estimates. The liquor tax is a great discouraging tax in the area of Tourism and in the restaurant field and so taxation and regulations are the two areas that face the businessman today, and as the Minister knows, the number of businesses that employ 20 or less people in Manitoba is a great number and it's those people that can't afford to have the expertise on staff day in and day out, such as the chartered accountant, the lawyer and so on, that the large corporations have available to them.

Therefore, if we overregulate them, they are constantly turning to the professionals for assistance and therefore being charged and billed for additional professional fees which have been only placed there by government in its game of overregulating the individual and how he or she wants to earn a living. The Minister made comments about Limestone , potash and oil exploration and the possibilities for the future.

Hopefully, Manitoba's small business community will be able to participate in some of the spinoff on Limestone, but it is the type of a project and of such a great size that I can see non- Manitobans getting the bulk of the work from Limestone and can only hope 1759

Thu rsday, 9 May, 1985 that some of the spinoff from Limestone will stay in Manitoba and that the Manitoba businessman will reap some of the benefits. Potash in Western Manitoba appears to be on hold and doesn't seem to be going anywhere and only recently this week there's some talk about increased oil explo ration in the Hudson Bay area; but hopefully all of these things, as time goes on, will have the spinoff effect for the small businessman. The Minister made reference about the increased visitations through the tourism.

Last year, when the former Minister, who is in attendance at committee, was giving his opening remarks, he mentioned two specific things that he thought would lead to major influxes of people into the Province of Manitoba and they were the Queen's visit and the visit of the Pope. We all know that the Queen's visit, unfortunately, was a very short visit.

It was basically restricted to selected people within Manitoba who would see or be in her presence and therefore I don't think it really brought a lot of outsiders to Manitoba; and the Pope's visit didn't materialize the numbers of visitors that we had hoped, but it's good to hear that the tourism numbers were up slightly because we know that in the Province of Saskatchewan the tourism rate is up considerably and where did the people in Saskatchewan get the inc reased tourism business from?

The bulk of their increase came from the State of North Dakota and this is an area that the Province of Manitoba and our Department of Tourism is going to have to really go after, to try and get that North Dakota business back coming straight north instead of going northwest.

The Minister hasn't made any reference to the Racing Commission so I won't go into that at this time, but I would just say to the Minister - and I'm sure he knows that the racing industry here in Manitoba is a good tourist attraction from North Dakota and northern parts of Minneso ta, and I was glad to see his government make some changes in the percentage of government takeout from the track and leaving more money in there because there's no doubt that this is an industry that is normally a healthy industry.

It's going over some rocky roads at the present time, but with the new competititon coming on stream from the track just south of Minneapolis, the horse racing industry in Manitoba and the tourism aspect of the horse racing industry are going to have to be very competitive in attracting people from across the line in the United States; because I know that the times that I've been out to the track in the past, it's an experience to walk through the parking lot and count the number of foreign licence plates on the cars and it's an important part of our tourism dollar and likely the most single impo rtant item that brings tourism dollar s to our province.

So perhaps, Mr. Chairman, with those brief remarks, and I'll just repeat my opening statement. The two areas of taxation and regulations are two areas that government has to constantly be looking at to prevent ourselves from getting out of balance with our sister provinces. We can't overtax Manitobans in comparison to persons living in Ontario or Saskatchewan and we can't overregulate if we want to keep the businessman, wanting to apply his entrepreneurship within our province. HON. J. STORIE: Just a very, very brief response to some of the points that you made; first, with respect to regulations.

I think that I'm very sensitive to the issue of regulations and how it impacts, particularly on the time and the effort that small businessmen have to expend on meeting the requirements of regulations. The department and I have been involved in a review of regulations. We've also been working with the Federal Government to review regulations that impact on small business. So, I'm not insensitiv e to the fact that regulations from time to time need to be reviewed.

Having said that, I don't think there's any unanimity on the par t of small businessmen about which regulations should be in place and which regulations should not be in place. Regulations do serve a function in our society. They serve a function in the management of the economy as well. To illustrate an example; when I met with about 700 small businessmen throughout the province in February and March.

One interesting development in Portage la Prairie in early March occurred when on one side of the table was an individual who was seeking deregulation, the lessening of regulation in the trucking industry - something that I know what has been reviewed and is being contemplated by the Department of Highways and Transportation - and on the other side of the table was an individual who was a small baker and, at that time, the bakery war was on in full flight.

This individual, a small businessmen wanted the government to do something to regulate, to provide some protection for those small businesses which were being harmed financially otherwise by what they saw as predatory pricing in effect. So, regulations have a role, but I certainly agree with the member that they have to be reviewed. I said at that time and I say again that I'm not here to defend regulations or legislation that was put in place 10 years ago or 20 years ago. I believe firmly that there is a need to review regulations and legislation from time to time and I'm not opposed to doing that.

The second thing, the member remarked on the Pope and the Queen's visits in 1984. Ce rtainly, I think we have to rely on our own strengths to attract tourists, our natural, our cultural strength. I don't think we can rely on incidental visits to make the diffe rence. We have to promote tourism broadly in co-ope ration with industry and we should do that. I'm sure we'll discuss the Horse Racing Commission further. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Can we now begin review of the Estimates line-by-line? We'll start with line 1.(

b) and could I call the staff forward please. The Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, while the staff is there, perhaps I could make a comment to the Minister and relate to him how I see regulations working. As the Minister is aware, on a Sunday if you're in the grocery store or a ma rket, you're allowed to have four employees working within the store. That regulation is a good regulation in the sense that it keeps the Safeways and the Supe rValues from opening up their stores because none of their stores could function at all with only four persons.

So, from that point of view it gives the small business person who runs the corner store and the neighbourhood store and opportunity to open on 1760

Thur sday, 9 May, 1985 Sunday and provide a service to the citizens and he/ she can run that store with four persons - sometimes with great difficulty - but there's a regulation that inhibits thOOg people from opening but permits the smaller person from having what would be likely the best cash­ flow day of the week by being permitted to operate with four employees. So, a regulation can have its advantages and its disadvantages. Mr. Chairman, the dollar sum here is up very, very slightly. It's obvious to me that it's strictly salary increases and the normal increases under (b)

(2) Other Expenditures for within the office, that there are no new persons at all within that framework. HON. J. STORIE: As the member suggests, the increases are miscellaneous increases, including salary. MR. W. STEEN: It's fine with me if other members of the Com mittee have no objections to pass 1.(b). MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 1.(b)( 1)-pass; 1.(b)(2)­ pass. 1.(

c) Strategic Planning; 1.(c)

(1) Salaries - the Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, this is the area of Business Development and Planning and it's from the administration point of view. Where we have personnel within the department who are available to the public to assist them with their business hopes and ambitions and so on, do the personnel from within the Strategic Planning area and can the Minister tell me just how they get involved with the individual business person that is coming to his department and wanting some assistance? How do the people from the executive end of it get involved? HON. J. STORIE: The Strategic Planning

section wouldn't nor mally be responsible for dealing with individual enquiries and enquiries from the public. The Strategic Planning

section is the

section that provides planning to the department, is responsible for new initiatives for developing the overall strategy for the department. Essentially, if an individual is interested in business information, nor mally he would be channelled to either the Business Development Centre or provided by information at his request in a specific area if it was possible. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, we've had many programs and we've just had a list of programs given to us here - what are the strategic planners recommending as far as developing small business in the rural areas is concerned? The Enterprise Manitoba Program is over. It brought forward about 340 businesses or so. There were only about 21 of them that failed. It has been regarded as an exceptionally good program. Ontario now has something similar. What are we doing to encourage small busin ess and what is our plan for encouraging small business and manufacturing in the rural area of Manitoba? 1761 HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the member refers to Enterprise Manitoba which I believe was quite successful and he and I have discussed Enterprise Manitoba on another occasion. Essentially, the department is providing a number of initiatives over the past year and working on a number of other ones, is also working with Industry, Trade and Technology to develop a new set of programs to stimulate small business both in rural Manitoba and in our cities. Those discussions are ongoing with the Federal Minister responsible for Economic and Regional Development and the Minister of State for Small Business, the Honourable Andre Bissonnette.

Certainly, the experience the department had with Enterprise Manitoba would serve us well in devising new programs. I think that my consultation with small businessmen throughout the province also, I think, was instructive in what they told us about what kinds of initiatives should be coming forth from the Provincial Government.

One of the most interesting - I suppose interesting from one perspective - concerns expressed by al most all businessmen at those meetings was the belief that grants perhaps, given the current fiscal position of most governments, were not the best way to go; that if there was one overriding concern, it continued to be the question of interest rate stability. As the member knows we did have an Interest Rate Relief Program.

I think that what we're looking at from this point on is some assurance that there is going to be made available, in one form or another, risk capital, investment capital at a relatively stable rate. In terms of what the department has been working on over the past year, the community counselling program and the threshold program I've already talked about, we have had a very successful Venture Capital Program.

We have, I believe, begun the process of revitalizing the Regional Development Corporations and we believe that they have a tremendous amount to offer our regions, to offer the communities in those regions and certainly I think there's a new kind of enthusiasm amongst the Regional Development Corporations and their boards. Essentially those are the major initiatives over the past year and looking to the future. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, what part of your Estimates - was the Strategic Planning involved in the - let me put it another way.

It's obvious that the Jobs Fund in Manitoba does have mon ies available for assistance to sm all business. Does the Strategic Planning par t this department make recommendations of what would happen with the Jobs Fund funding ? Do they do anything towards the recommendations as to policies of the Jobs Fund towards small business? HON. J. STORIE: Certainly, Mr. Chairperson, the Jobs Fund has in a number of ways provided support for individual programs. I mentioned earlier the Youth Entrepreneurship Program, the Venture Capital for Remote Com munities Program, the Career Symposium,

Thursday, 9 May, 1985 the Employee Participation or the Gain-Sharing Program. Those are offered though the auspices of the Jobs Fund. The department also provides a number of other initiatives on its own through the regular departmental funding; programs such as the Feasibility Assistance for Small Manufacturers, the Design Assistance for Small Projects, both of which I believe are quite innovative, relatively inexpensive and well appreciated by those particular users.

Apart from that program such as the Business Administration Student Counselling Program and of course CASE which is familiar to most members; the Management Development and Training Program, which offers courses and seminars in various communities throughout the province, have also been used pretty extensively by Manitoba small businessmen - or small business people I should say. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister mentions programs and I think he opens his remark with a Venture Capital Program every time. When the Strategic Planning

section was set up towards the end of 198 1 or during 198 1 and it split up into two Strategic Planning groups because the department is split, it was basically put together on the basis that there would be a group of people who were examining Manitoba and coming up with recommendations as to what businesses would suit this province and what businesses would probably be the ones to work for it as far as expanding is concerned, and what the province would have to do to put those businesses or encourage those businesses to come here, locate here, or expand them if they were here.

And we were looking at the - and certainly - I won't say we were looking at - certainly the areas of transportation, electronics; the areas of hospital equipment, and I think there were two or three others that were being looked at at that present time to come up with a strategy of what would be best and how would we get it? Has the Strategic Planning Department presented anything that the department is working on so that they're progressively moving towards new business and expansion of business? HON. J.

STORIE: First, for the member's information, there's a clear differentiation between what is the responsibility of Business Development and Tourism and what is the responsibility of Industry, Trade and Technology. As far as attracting businesses from out of province, from other nations, the responsibility has largely lain with the Department of Industry, Trade and Technology.

We work as a department of small business, generally with home-grown enterprises and we've certainly had a number of programs - and I acknowledge that I've used Venture Capital as an example because I think by virtue of the fact that it created or assisted in maintaining some 600-plus jobs, it has been a tremendously successful program. You know 600 jobs is a mega project. I have also talked about the threshold companies working with companies who, because they have a unique product or have a unique place in the market, have an opportunity to expand.

That kind of initiative is being taken by the department as well as the general assistance that's provided to entrepreneurs who come with an idea, need a place to start. The number of people who have been assisted by the department in creating their own enterprises ranges in the hundreds. I'm sure that I could get the exact figure for the member but it is significant. With respect to the new programs, I suppose that all governments across Canada are searching for that panacea, that magic solution.

Certainly the department of Strategic Planning has been and continues to review activities in other provinces and other parts of the world. They are, as the member has rightly assumed, working on new programs that will be of assistance to small business. As I mentioned as well the IRDP Devolution has also consumed some time from that branch as we devise ways that will be more appropriate for the province to utilize that particular funding. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, the heading is "Strategic Planning," I think it says, "provides resources for planning, development, assessment and research support for executives." It doesn't sound like it's a program to me and I'm aware of the planning in the other department, but we have a Strategic Planning Department within the Business Development and Tourism, and maybe I could ask if there's part of this strategic planning goes into the Tourism Department. What does the Strategic Planning Department do under this section? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairman, I thought I'd indicated that the program development activities are the responsibility of this group. The research that goes into developing programs, the assessment of programs that have been initiated in other jurisdictions, all comes under the auspices of this group. There are many governments, obviously all governments, searching for ways to improve the resources that are made available to small business, and that, of course, is part of their program, assimilating, utilizing information from other jurisdictions in the way that will be useful to Manitoba businesses, is part of their mandate as well.

They are doing that ori an ongoing basis, and as I said, the new programs that I've mentioned are the programs that were offered in'84-85, were all vetted through this particular group and that's the role they play. There's a big job to do and as I said, they're in the process of developing new programs that can tie into a devolved IRDP, new programs that will be offered by the department. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Perhaps, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister, because it's not a large sum of money, could list not the persons, but the jobs that fall into this area and tell us briefly what each person does and whether that person has a greater attachement to the business development aspect or the tourism aspect, because obviously these people are close to the Deputy Minister 1762

Thursday, 9 May, 1985 and assist the Deputy very closely in working with the Minister. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, there are four people in that section. The Executive Director is Mr. Bill Ratcliffe, - Bill Cruse, I'm sorry, and there are three other people involved in the department as well. I don't know if the member wants names. MR. \llL STEEN: No, I don't think it's necessary to have names. HON. J. STORIE: So it's a relatively small group. MR. \llL STEEN: To the Minister, these four people, can you give us an example of the type of work they're doing for the Deputy Minister and himself? HON. J.

STORIE: Every time a program is considered, I meet with the executive and staff on a fairly regular basis and we obv iously discuss ideas that are going to promote small bus iness in the province. They get their instructions from Cabinet through myself, we look at alternatives and options and ask for a way to implement those particular options. Their job is to come back with detail on how a program would work and what its implications would be, that's all part of planning. MR. W.

STEEN: To the Minister, I noticed in his information brochure, "Getting to Know Us," a couple of paragraphs about the core area small business, and being a member from the city area and being a person who has been down to the core area office and met with the manager and his staff and have discussed their operations on a number of occasions, can the Minister tell me what is the relationship between his department of Business Development and the core area Small Business Assistance Program?

I might add that in being at the core office and di scussing their program with an Urban Affa irs Committee, it seems to me that in a lot of cases, what we're doing is we're trying to entice a business that is outside of the core area to relocate within the core area and this is a good move if that business is going to do better by being moved to a different address, but if it's just a case of shuffling the deck and taking business "A" and moving it into the core area and hoping that it will do better there than it might have in west Winnipeg or in north Winnipeg, I wonder if we're sending good dollars after bad dollars.

Can the Minister comment on the Core Area Business Assistance Program? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I suppose in some sense the member raises a legitimate question. I think there is agreement on one point; and that is that we want to redevelop our downtown, the core area. As the member knows, the core area agreement was signed by the previous government, so obv iously there was some consensus and there should be some agreement between us that it is an important task and one that obviously the previous government deemed important enough to sign a multi-million dollar agreement to accomplish.

So I think it's fair to say that we all agree that it's important to make the effort. How you go about that clearly is an open question. There are a number of components. When I was Min ister of Housing, as the member knows, there were a number of initiatives undertaken to re-establish a residential component into the core area. That was done by utilizing money expended for public housing and utilizing programs such as the Infill Housing Program to bring people back into the core area.

I think likewise, another component of a healthy community is the small business component and while my department plays a small role in that, essentially we have two staff who are seconded to work with the core area office. The Department of Urban Affairs has representatives, I believe, on the Project Approval Committee, the Department of Business Development, per se, does not. So in that way we are involved. I think the larger question though is whether we believe that those kinds of incentives are necessary, whether we believe or have a commitment to the development of the core area of the city.

As I've said, we certainly believe that it's important to try. There have been a plethora of initiatives to do that. In some people's eyes, I suppose this has been very successful. I think there have been instances where it has been less successful than one would hope, but nonetheless it's something that I think we all agree is important to attempt, anyway. MR. \llL STEEN: Mr. Chairman, the information sheet here says the core area cost-shares up to $2,000 for feasibility studies and allocates grants up to 25,000 for eligible core area companies.

As the Min ister has said that it was our government that was in on the initial signing of the core area agreement, are these dollars from within the Min ister's Department, or are they from the major core area budget, which is a tri-shared budget? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, the dollars do not come from my department.

MR. \llL STEEN: So the reason why they would be put in this information brochure is to inform persons that might qualify for this kind of assistance that those are the limits of the assistance and it's not to say that the Provincial Government has those monies available, but that type of money is available through the Core Area Initiative Program? HON. J. STORIE: It's my understanding that one-third of that cost roughly would be the cost to the Provincial Government. That allocation doesn't come through my department.

We obviously do assist, by virtue of the fact that we have two staff members who are seconded to work with the core area office. MR. W. STEEN: Your two staff members that have been seconded to work in the core area office, they are down at the King Street address and working there on a regular basis, or do they work out of Carlton Street and are called down to the King Street office when there are concerns that would affect your department? HON. J. STORIE: No, I think as the pamphlet indicates, the address is King Street and that's where those two individuals work from. 1763

Thursday, 9 May , 1985 MR. W. STEEN: So they're basically two provincial employees that are on loan to the core area concept for as long as it may exist into the future. HON. J. STORIE: I think that's right. MR. W.

STEEN: As I said during Urban Affairs Estimates the other day, is that I don't think we'll ever see the end of the core area program, because so many of their dollars are going into social programs and the enhancement of social programs for people of the area, that some level of the government is going to some day have to find a new budget or another tri-level agreement to continue those social programs on , whether they have any business connotation at all; so we may have those two persons seconded for many, many years to come. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: I just wanted to follow up on the core area thing. It says, "P rogram funded under tripartite government Core Area Initiative Agreement is designed to assist the establishment, expansion and upgrading of small business within the Winnipeg core area.'' Expansion and upgrading I can understand and the Strategic Planning would be able to give people information as to the feasibility, etc., but the word "establishment" is something that I would like to know if the Strategic Planning are making recommendations on the types of businesses.

Have they done a survey to see which ones are successful and the types of business that should go into the core area development plan? HON. J. STORIE: First, I guess the overall planning for the implementation of programs associated with the Core Area Initiative are done through the core area office and not through the department, obviously. The department, through its seconded staff, provides consulting services, in essence. Whether there have been any formal studies on the kinds of businesses that succeed, the services, etc. , that are required in that area, I can't say with any certainty.

I assume - and it's only an assumption - that those kinds of things have occurred, although off the top of my head I don't know what kind of limitations there would be, particularly in the service area, for an area in the downtown of a fairly large metropolitan area. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Was the department involved in the decision to change the business development or the business area of the core area plan? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 3.(c)(1) - the Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: One question.

It must fall under Strategic Planning because the Main Street Manitoba Program is in this brochure and I would think that it would take somebody with a great deal of planning ability to operate that program, because it was the highlight of the career for the Member for Ste. Rose when he was Minister of Municipal Affairs. How does the Department of Small Business or Business Development get involved in the Main Street Program? It's really a grant that is given by the Department of Municipal Affairs to a municipality for the upgrading of a street and the Public Works and the facelifting of certain buildings.

Is it the facelifting of buildings along the Main Street of a given town that falls within the parameters of the Department of Business Development? HON. J. STORIE: I think that's part of it, certainly.

I think , as the member knows, the "P erfect Pete Program," as we lovingly call this, was some time in being initiated because of the complexity, because it involved - in a very real way - the co-operative effort on the part of individual businesses, on the part of the municipality and on the part of the government; so what this particular department offered was to the business community, in essence, but the project as a whole, some leadership in terms of developing a theme and as the member suggested, dealing with the visual aspects of the program.

So that was our role and I'm proud to say that having seen the results of the Main Street Manitoba Program in a number of communities, I think without patting the department on the back unduly, the results have been quite satisfactory, both from the government point of view and I know from the community point of view. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I would ask the Minister if he could comment on the Master of Business Administration, Student Counselling Program and this, as I gather, is through the University of Manitoba in conjunction with his department; and the brochure mentions about the students that are available for small consulting jobs or contracts. Is this a program that the greater amount of benefit is for the student or is it for the person the student's going out to work for - the greatest degree of benefit? HON. J. STORIE: I don't know that that can be answered unless we talk to individual businesses and students.

Obviously, the idea is to match the needs of a particular business with the need for a particular student to gain some valuable experience, in terms of consulting, in terms of providing assistance, so I think again, for what is a relatively small amount of money, we provide both the participants with experience, information that is valuable , to one as an individual, to the other as a business. MR. W.

STEEN: The Business Development Centre on Niakwa Road would have a list of students that are working on their Masters Program and their area of expertise and interest and then they would try, I gather, and match up that student with an available job or contract. I would ask the Minister, and I would hope that the program is limited in its scope to the extent that it's not putting people who are earning their livelihood as consultants out of business and that these students would be gaining good experience, but most of the 1764

Thur sday , 9 May, 1985 people that they would be working for would not be getting the benefit of the service, because they wouldn't normally be in a position to afford a general consultant off the mainstream of society, am I correct in that assumption? HON. J. STORIE: I think generally, yes, Mr. Chairperson, I think the Masters of Business Administration Program last year assisted approximately 30 to 35 clients. I don't think it's taking a major chunk out of the potential for those professionals who are involved in consulting to businesses.

The time frame, as the member may be aware, is for projects that last from two to two-and-a-half weeks. They are relatively small jobs and usually are referred to relatively small businesses and, it's only conjecture, but I assume businesses that normally under other circumstances wouldn't be taking advantage of a co nsultant's services. I think, by and large, the member's assumptions are correct. MR. W. STEEN: The Minister, Mr. Chairman, made reference to 35 specific jobs. How many students were involved in that because he did mention the numbers of weeks that they're involved for? HON. J.

STORIE: Thus tar, I think, our experience is approximately 10 students involved at any one time. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: 1.(c)( 1)-p ass; 1.(c)(2)­ pass. 1.(d)( 1) Communications - the Member for River Heights. MR. W. STEEN: Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, I could ask the Minister again the same question I asked him in Strategic Planning, the number of persons that are in the Communications Branch and if he could elaborate are these people working for both the Tourism aspect and the Business Development po rtion of his department? HON. J. STORIE: I think the simple answer is yes, Mr. Chairman. MR. W.

STEEN: And the number of persons he had within the Communications Branch? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, there are six people currently - I should say five - there is one vacancy. MR. W. STEEN: To the Minister. We saw the slide presentation earlier and having been both in Brandon and in Portage at the Tourism Association's Annual Meeting, people from within the Department of Tourism outlined the program and the strategy of their campaign at bo th those meetings in the past. Are those persons from within the Tourism Department, are they from the Communications

section of his department? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson. The members that were introduced or discussed the 1985-8 6 marketing plan were from Travel Manitoba. Obvious ly, the design, the information that was contained in the booklet would have been done in conjunction with the Communications Branch, however. MR. W. STEEN: I'd like to ask the Minister if he could elab orate a little bit more on the five persons or the six persons when it is at it's full complement in the Communications Branch. They are not the ones that are the foot soldiers for the Tourism aspect.

Obvious ly, they're not the people that are dealing on a one-to­ one basis with the business people. Can he give me some examples of what their duties are in the area of Communications? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, these people like most others in the department are doing yeoman service and actually undertake such a variety of tasks that it's hard to believe that human beings can accomplish as much as they do. The Communications staff are responsible for the advertising campaigns.

They are responsible for the development of notes, material for our pamphlets; displays, responsible for the visuals wherever we participate as a booth; coordinate the communication needs of the department generally, as well as being involved when and as required to promote specific events, specific promotions. I should indicate that, as I've said, there are six staff - one po sition is vacant. If you assume a secretary or a support staff in there, we are left with four people, in essence, to co-ordinate the communication role of the department. When you consider that encompasses both the Business Development

section and the Tourism

section with all of the advertising that is undertaken - the management of programs such as the Co-op advertising - they do yeoman service for the Department of Business Development and Tourism. MR. W. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, for example, at the Red River Exhibition Summer Fair, if the Minister's department has a bo oth, for example, within the Winnipeg Arena where so many other organizations and corporations have booths there for sales purposes or information purposes, the people manning that booth would likely come from his Communications Branch then? HON. J.

STORIE: No, the people in the Communications Branch would be responsible for making sure that the visual was attractive and they would indirectly be responsible for making sure that the pamphlets and the material that was offered to the people was there and adequate. The staffing would generally come from Travel Manitoba staff. There's two distinct duties. The Communications Branch is providing the grist for the mill if you will. MR. W.

STEEN: I know that Tourism Manitoba have some excellent people in the promotion field and was wondering if we were having a duplication of services by having this upper level or a two-tiering system of communication. So, I would gather that the Communications people would be the ones that would make the arrangements with the television stations, and so on, for the booking of the promotions for Tourism Manitoba, the bookings with the example that I have used, the Red River Exhibition, and so on, and other persons from within the Department of Tourism would be the ones that would be doing the manning of booths 1765

Thursday, 9 May, 1985 and so on and these would be the senior management people making the contracts with wherever the example of communication was going to be carried out? HON. J. STORIE: In essence, that's right. This branch does the creative part and it's more accurately titled, I suppose, Communications and Creative Services. With that qualification, I think the member . . . MR. W.

STEEN: They would be people that are well versed in the placing of radio and television commercials, newspaper commercials, people that have had a lot of experience looking at commercials, and so on, and in the preparation of, would sort of be the final line before the Deputy Minister and the Minister on approving of material that's going to be used. In the (2) section, Other Expenditures, there's a large increase over last year. There's virtually no increase in the salaries. What is the cause of going from 50,000 to the 130,000 with the same complement of staff or the fact that you're going with a vacancy even?

HON. J. STORIE: The complement of staff is the same. The increase of some 80,000 in that particular category relates to two things. One is an additional $30,000 has been made available for the utilization of consultants and the other 50 out of that 80 go towards the development of our Small Business Report. MR. W. STEEN: The Small Business Report is something that is new and the few copies I've seen I've been imp ressed with. In regard to utilization of consultants, the Minister means outside consultants that the department doesn't have.

Can the Minister tell me what types of projects that he is going outside of his department to have professionals assist the department with? Obviously, this is sort of a one-shot effort and that's why you're going outside the department rather than hiring additional staff. What type of work are the consultants working on? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I think the member identified the problem correctly.

It's material that is needed, particular techniques, particular services that are required or needed in the department that aren't no rmally available through our own communications personnel or other services that are generally available through gover nment depar tments, things like photographers or writing pieces - I don't know what they're called - "lure " pi eces that are fo r trade magazines and other magazines that are contracted.

It's not a large additional sum of money, but it gives us some additional flexibility so that we can pull in creative people, get them to do a specific task and we found it works and it certainly supplements when you conside r all of the other activities that our communications people are expected to handle as well. MR. W.

STEEN: Is the Minister saying, in essence, that the area of expenses within this Communications Branch was far too low in the past and it didn't give them the flexibility to do the job that they wanted to do and that this item of $13 0,000 is more likely to be the area of expenditure for next year and the year thereafter. HON. J.

STORIE: Certainly, what we're trying to do is utilize some additional funding in the most appropriate way and obviously we could hire additional staff, but we feel that by pulling in people for specific projects, people with specific skills, we're obviously going to get the product we need at much less cost. I should say that staff tell me that by utilizing specific writers, for example, on a consultant or contract basis, we believe that we have created an advertising value to the province somewhere in the neighbourhood of $2 million.

We contract with a writer to do a specific piece on Manitoba and it's published in some journal or some tourism publication. It's distributed in the United States or in some other area of the world, so we get a tremendous value by contracting out small pieces like that, in terms of publicity, so it's a very effective tool. It's a way for us to increase the impact of our advertising with really very few dollars. I think it's a creative idea and something that we intend to expand. MR. W.

STEEN: To the Minister, I would ask the Minister and he can ask his department because he was the Minister last year, how did the department or this branch of the department get by last year with such a small amount of money? HON. J. STORIE: They got by, I suppose , by both being creative and imaginative, by developing programs, pursuing programs like co-op advertising, which I think will prove to be a tremendously successful program. They got by, by I suppose, utilizing the services of our Strategic Planning Branch, identifying in a more concrete way where our market was.

It's easy, I suppose, to say let's spend another couple of million dollars on Tourism advertising and go at it in a very generic or shotgun way. I think recognizing that there are limits to what can be done in terms of tourism advertising, we have used the money that was made available to us in a very appropriate and successful way. MR. W. STEEN: Mr. Chairman, when the Minister discusses co-op advertising, I gather what he means by that is the Fishing Guide'85 that has the ads for the various lodges and so on, that these are not just informational pieces