Manitoba Hansard — 27 September 1989 (Sitting 38, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-38

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, September 27, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEE DINGS ORAL QUESTION PER IOD VIA Rail Correspondence Request Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Highways and Transporta tion (Mr . Albert Driedger). It appears that our worst possible fears with respect to VIA and its cuts are going to take effect. The federal Cabinet is now deciding on a massive cutback of VIA Rail which will end forever a national transpor tation link in this � nation. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister told us in June that he had written a letter to the Minister of federal Transportation. We hope he has done much more than that and therefore I ask him today to table in the House. Is it not amazing that the Premier (Mr . Filmon) of this pr ovince thinks it is a laughing matter that we are going to have an end to our national transportation system. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! ***** Mr. Speaker: Order, please; the Honourable First Minister, on a point of order. *

(1335) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I was just adjusting my glasses and unfortunately broke the arm on my glasses which caused me to laugh. I am sorr y that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) has taken offence at that. I will get the glasses repai red immediately. Mr. Speaker: The Honour able First Minister does not have a point of ord er. The Honour able Leader of the Opp osition. Mrs. Carstairs: I hope fixed gl asses will make him see more clear ly. ***** Mrs. Carstairs: Will the Minister of Transpor tation (Mr .

Albert Dried ger) please table in the House today copies of all letters and corr espondence that he has had with the Honour able Benoit Bouchard , as well as all briefs and pres entations made on behalf of the Manitoba people with respect to VIA Rail? Hon. Albert Driedger ( Mini ster of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I have no 1341 difficulty. I will get the corre spondence that I have written to the federal Minister and make it available. I do not have them here right now.

However, there has been a fair amount of corres pondence that has taken place between myself and the federal Minister. It is with regret that we heard the rumour s. I have not been notified pr ecisely exactly what the impact will be of the cutbacks on VIA Rail for Manitoba. I am trying to get that information right now. However, I would like to indicate that mine is not a decision-making role in this case but a lobby role. I have certainly tried to do that with as much effect as I could. I would like to indicate, Mr.

Speaker, that April 7 is when I wrote the first letter to the Minister of Transport regard ing reports of rumour ed cuts to VIA Rail. I asked the Minister to delay a decision until VIA's 1989 review was completed and results of the NTA's pricing inquiry have been made available for comment. On May 4, I wrote a further letter to the Minister of Transport regard ing Manitoba's concerns, about Apr il 26, the federal budget cuts to VIA and asking for a national review.

On July 11, I again wrote to the federal Minister of Transport asking him not to make cuts to VIA until after the 1989 review is completed and made available for comment. On July 28, I submitted a letter also to the Liberal task force indicating Manitoba's position on VIA Rail. I have more information. If there is a further question, I will try and complete my answer. Cutbacks-Impact Study Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker , can the Minister of Transpor tation (Mr .

Albert Driedger) tell the House today if his department has done any impact studies on the effect of the loss of VIA Rail as enunciated through a variety of newspaper reports throughout the summer and culminating today? Has he done those impact studies and will he table them in this House? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minis ter of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I would like to continue my answer from before and I will respond to the question as well. However, on September 8, I wrote to the Minister of Transpor t again regard ing VIA Rail's booking policy.

On Septem ber 20 and 21, when I happened to attend the Ministers' Conference in Calgar y, there was a unanimous resolution passed by all provinces indicating that a mor atorium had been requested by the federal Minister of Transportation that a moratorium would be placed on any decisions before consultation had taken place. This res olution was placed before the federal Minister the next morning on the 21st, at which time the federal Minister denied that request. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, the letters are fine and we know he wrote the letters. I admitted that in my

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 opening question. Wha t we want to know is what specific information has been gathered in this province by this Minister to impact and to indicate the impact on this province at those VIA cuts. We have known what they were going to be for some time. *

(1340) Mr. Albert Driedger: In reply to the question, we are compiling the final figur es on that now. I can give some immedia te figu res ind icating that last year alone Manitoba and Wi nnipeg, Northwestern Ontario, the two mainline passenger trains, together with the mixed services, the losses reached $11.5 million. This is what the figur es are that VIA Rail is giving us. We are trying to establish what the economic impact would be in terms of jobs and the im pact on our nor th ern communities as well as the people in Manitoba.

The Member, I believe, is aware that we have appr oximately a little over 500 people emp loyed with VIA Rail in Manitoba and it is a major concern to us. I have related that in all my responses so far. We have lobbied as extensively as I know how to lobby together with my colleagues to ask that there be rationale met, that we have input into the matter, based on the impact that it could have in Manitoba. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr . Sp eaker , you cannot lobby effectively unless you have the data at your fingertips and this Minister does not have the data at his fingertips. When is he going to have the data?

This decision is going to be made sometime in the immediate future like today, tomorrow or the day after. Mr. Albert Driedger: If the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) is sugge sting that we have not done every thing possible, I feel very confident in the people in my Transportation Division who have been concerned about this for the last six months, and we have done everything including perso nal conversat ions with the federal Minister of Transpor t asking him not to make a decision until we can bring forward all the information.

This was a unanimous decision made by all provincial Ministers at Calgary the other day. Obviously, the federal Govern ment has made a decision that they will take and cut their losses on it. They have established a figur e and that is the objective they are going at. We will continue once we know exactly the impact it will have on Manitoba. I will again be in contact with him raising those concerns with not only the federal Minister of Transport but all his colleagues, as well. Northern Route Protection Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): But it appears unclear as to the futur e of the bay line.

We hear that some aspects, some parts of it, might be pr otected. Can the Minister tell us today whether that line is going to be protected from Winni peg to Churchill, or only from Thompson to Chur chill? Hon. Albert Drie dger (Minis ter of Highways and Transportation): The commitment that was made by the federal Minister was that the northern rout es in Manitoba would be pro tected at this stage of the game. I have no further information indicating that is not the case. I am trying to get the information. The decision has not been brought down officially yet.

We have rumour ed information at this stage of the game, and I am very appr ehensive about those rumour s. As soon as I have some definite information on it, I am pr epar ed to take appropria te action, the best that I can take, along with my col leagues. VIA Rail Proposed Cutbacks Documentation Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker , with a final question to the First Minister (Mr . Filmon).

Wi ll the First Minister leave this Chamber and go and pick up the phone and talk to his friend or at least we think it is his friend- one Brian Mulro ney, and get a copy of this document, since it seems to be read ily available to the media but it is not available to the decision makers of this country. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Wel l, Mr. Speaker, I find it very interesting that the Leader of the Opposition � (Mr . Carstairs) has all the answers to all of the problems. She knows everything about everything, but she never has to be able to be respo nsible to make anything happen, because she cannot.

The fact of the matter is that five pro vincial Go vernments in this countr y are led by Liberal administrations. They are as oppo sed to the VIA Rail cuts as we are, at least I presume they are. They, through their Transportation Ministers, are lobbying Ottawa to do pr ecisely the same thing that our Minister of Transportation (Mr . Albert Driedger) is doing. All of the Fi rst Ministers, together in a communiqu e, asked Ottawa not to pr oceed with the cuts to VIA Rail until there was complete information as to the reg ional effects and the impacts on our reg ions in every single province.

All of those five Liberal Premiers with all of their authority have not been able to come up with the information to make the case, have not been able to persuade the Minister or the federal Govern ment to change their position on it, nor have they been able to do anything. *

(1345) So I sugge st to her that the problem is not that we are not putting in the effort. The problem is that Ottawa is pro ceeding on their agenda, reg ardle ss of what she says- VIA Rail Cutbacks- Impact Study Mr. John Plohman (D auphin): Mr. Speaker, last spring the Minister of Transportation was caught flat-footed when the CN announced that they were going to lay off 3,395 emplo yees in the right-of-way area of the CN. He was not consulted on that, he said, and he had not been made aware of those cuts. This morning and yesterday we learned of massive potential red uctions at VIA Rail that could impact severely on Manitoba's economy, on jobs in this province. 1342

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 ask the Min ister of Tra nspor tation (Mr . Al bert Driedger) whether he has been consulted specifically on the massive reductions that we learned in the leaked Cabinet document yesterd ay, and has the Minister had an opportun ity to ask his staff for the specific impact of those cuts on the Pr ovince of Manitoba on jobs and on the economy? He did not ask for that information before, he does not have a repor t- Mr . Speaker: Order , plea se; ord er, please. The Honour able Minister of Highways and Transporta tion. Hon. Albert Drie dger (Mini ster of Highways and Transportation): Mr.

Speaker , first of all, I do not have the definite information exactly as to what the cuts are going to be in Ma nitoba. Staff is wo rking on suppositions at this stage of the game in terms of trying to analyze the impact. As I indicated before, we are app rehensive that the rumour s could probably be true. I am very concerned about that. We are trying to get .. that information, but until I have specific information ' indicating exactly the extent of the cuts that are being anticipated, I am talking in a vacuum. I cannot really give an answer as to exactly what the total impact would be. But, Mr.

Speaker, if I might, this problem did not develop today or yesterday or six months ago. The situation of VIA Rail has been something that has been developing over a period of the last 10 years and there have been many other Govern ments that have played a role in this thing over a period of time. Now when we are at death's gate the criticism comes forward, there should have been action taken 10 years ago in terms of avoiding this kind of a situation. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, this Minister is always working in a vacuum.

The fact is that anyone can figur e that in view of the fact there were 40 trains at the present time travelling to and from Win nipeg each week, and the discontinuance of the Continental and the � Transcontinental and the Canadian will result in massive ' red uctions down to arou nd 10 trains per week, we have learned a 75 perce nt red uction in train traffic, 500 of 700 VIA jobs lost in this province, $15 million in wages. Those are the figures that he would have.

Will he make re pr esentation to the federal Minister to ensur e that he is aware of this major impact that those cuts would have on the economy of Manitoba, and will he ensur e that every step is taken to have those reversed ? I do not have a gr eat deal of trust in this Minister's word, Mr. Speaker. He has done nothing up to this point in time. I want to ask- Mr. Speaker: Ord er, pl ease. The Ho nour able Govern ment House Leader. Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): The Honourable Member might get on with his question, Mr. Speaker. CN Rail Equipment Maintenance Layoffs Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Member for Dauphin, with a supp lementary question. Mr. John Plohman (D auphin): Mr . Sp eaker , this morning we learned that through reo rgan ization of middle management at CN-in view of the fact that this morning we learned that five out of 12 middle management positions in the Equipment Maintenance Division were laid off this morning, were told unceremoniously that their jobs were finished, can the Min ister advise this House whether he has been consulted on the layoff of these middle management positions right here in Wi nnipeg that took pl ace this morning? Hon.

Albert Drie dger (Mini ster of Highways and Transportation): No, Mr. Speaker. Via Rail Government's Position Mr. Speaker: The Honour able Member for Dauphin, with his final supplementa ry question. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): We have another case of a Minister not being aware and not repres enting CN.- (interjection)- Now, the Premier (Mr . Filmon) wants the same question. I ask this Premier, was he aware of this information? Why is he not making it his business to find out what this federal Conservative Government is doing to Manitoba with these massive cuts in VIA Rail?

Wha t repres entations is he making to the Prime Minister? Mr. Speaker: Order , please. The Honourable First Minister. Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The Member for Dauphin (Mr . Plohman) knows full well that we have gone on the record as stating our oppo sition to the VIA Rail cuts, that we have indicated that we want to have- Victim Assistance Committee Recommendations *

(1350) Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Justice (Mr . Mccra e) . Seven new members were appointed to the Victims Assistance Committee yesterday and this is interest ing because, as we raised in this House on April 18 by Treasury Board edict, the ability of that committee to give funds to victims was effectively ended. Can the Minister assure this House today that, given the new appointments to the committee, that committee is back in action and that funds are going to be released to victims in a timely fashion, and can he explain to this House why he saw fit to cut off the funds in the first place? 1343

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General):. If the Honourable Member would take the time to read The Justice for Victims of Crime Act he would note that the Victims Assistance Committee does not give funds to victims. The Gover nment gives funds to victims, agencies and organ izations. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker , that committee is set up to recommend, that is true. The fact is that every recommendation had been heeded until such time as this Government cut it off on April 18 of this year, and I will expect an answer to that first question. Surtax Collection Mr.

Paul Edwards (St. James): This is by way of supple mentary question to the same Minister. Is this Minister going to be collecting the new $35 federal surtax on victims from people who are charged because, having spoken to the Provincial Court cashier's office, they are under the impr ession that $35 surcharge appl ies to people who are just charged , and as far as I know that is not the intent of the federal sur charge. In fact it may be unconstitutional. Has the Minister received a constitutional opinion contrary to that, or is the Provincial Court Office simply under a misappr ehension? Can he clear that up?

Hon. James McCratt (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): With respect to the reco mmendations of the Victims Assistance Committee, the Honourable Member has put a mistatement of fact on the record, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Attorney General Penner- it was his habit to rubber-stamp the recommendations put forward by the Victims Assistance Committee. The following Attorney General, Mr. Attorney General Shro eder, came along and asked for certain assistance and certain information from the committee, information which this Govern ment asked for as well. We have been working with the committee.

The committee has not been unable to do its work. It has been doing its work and making recommendations. The Honourable Member asked about the new federal surtax which comes in under Bill C-89 of the federal Parliament. That surcharge for criminal code offences was collectable beginning in- Recommendations Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr. Speaker, the Minister says that they have not been unable to do their work , yet Treasury Board has said that they will not give any money out of the fund. As of April of this year they said that. This comm ittee is set up to recommend funds to victims groups.

Wi ll the Min ister answer the ques tion? Is that committee now making effective recommendations or are they still doing what they have been doing for the last four months, and that is making recommendations that go nowhere because the Treasury Board had shut them down? Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): The Member would be appla uding at such an accusation, especially when the accusation is not true. Recommendations made by the Victims Assistance Committee to the Government have been the subject of gr ants that have been made by this Govern ment.

The one thing that we have asked for and the Victims Assistance Committee has asked for in return is that there be a needs assessment analysis done. That is being done. In the meantime, projects that are not multiy ear pr ojects are being reviewed and being app roved by the Government of Manitoba. The Honour able Member from his seat, I take it it is another question, Mr. Speaker, asks when we last gave out some money. We know that the Liberals would like very much to giv e out some money- Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. Mentally Handicapped Day Programs Ms.

Avis Gray (Ellice): My question is to the Minister of Family Servic es (Mr s. Ol eson). The mentally handicapped leaving the school system were prom ised in writing, by letters signed by this Minister, that they � would receive priori ty placement for day programs. As these letters were being sent out, the Family Services budget had al ready been set so that no volume increases were par t of that budget, there would be no expansion of day programs this year. My question to the Minister is: can she tell this House who made the decision for no volume increases? Hon.

Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, that decision was a budget decision.· We have to set our pri orities. We had to make sure that people in group homes in already existing prog rams were well served . That was becoming a serious, serious problem. We had to focus the money on that prog ram this year. *

(1355) Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister tell us why she wou ld ind icate to parents of the mentally handicapped that their children would be a priority when she knew full well that she had no intentions of having i those people in day programs because there was no � money in the budget? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Speaker, I indicated to them that it was a priorit y. When there were programs available, they would get into them. Day Programs-Waiting List Ms. Avis ,Gray (Ellice): Mr. Speaker, I have a final supp lementary to the Minister of Family Services (Mr s. Oleson).

Since she seems to indicate to us she always has a gr asp on her department, perhaps she could tell the House today how many mentally handicapped individuals who have just gradua ted from the school system are now sitting at home without day programs because of her decisions? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I did not bring the record with me. I can bring that to the House at another time. 1344

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 Environment Act City of Winnipeg Compliance Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, almost two and a half years ago, the new Environment Act was passed by this Legislature. Some nine months later the Act was proclaimed and became law in the Province of Manitoba. Since that law has been passed , we have repea tedly asked successive Ministers of the Environment when is the province going to implement The Environment Act for the City of Wi nnipeg, and we have asked the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Cummings), does he have any legal opinion or jus tification for excluding and ex empting the City of Wi nnip eg from the full Environment Act, and why has he repl aced that as the former Minister with the backroom commit tee of bureaucrats between the city and the pr ovince rather than the full compliance of the law. Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Environment): Mr. Sp eaker, when the Leader of the third Party (Mr. Doer) in this Legislature asked me that question shortly after I became Minister, he was able to bamboozle this House and the public into thinking that the City of Wi nnipeg was exempt from the Act.

They are not exempt. Mr. Doer: If the Minister would read his own words in Hansard, he would find that he says at the same time, we are working towards bringing the city in compliance with The Environment Act. He is obviously contradicting himself, Mr. Speaker. They are either in compliance or they are not in compliance.

We have two legal opinions that show that the city is breaking the provin ce's laws and my question to the Minister is, how long is he going to allow the city to break the environment laws by putting lead-filled snow in the rivers, by excluding the Charle swood bridge from an environmental assessment study, from not having a licence for the treatment centres, for not dealing with the raw sewage, for not dealing with the landfill sites. How long is he going to continue to break the provincial Government's law? Mr. Cummings: All of those concerns are being dealt with and will be licenced. Mr.

Doer: I ask the Minister what wr itten legal authority he has to break the law which he admitted in June in this Chamber? My question to the Minister is this: is it going to take citizens' committees to sue the province to fulfill their obligations to impose the full Environment Act which was passed in this Chamber? Is it going to take citizens the responsibility to sue the Government to fulfill our collective obligations to fulfill the full Environment Act with our larg est municipal- Mr. Speaker: Order , please. The Honourable Minister of Environment. Mr. Cummings: The Leader of the New Democratic Par ty (Mr.

Doer) just said from his seat he wants the waste disposal sites licensed and they will be. Conawapa Project Ontario Hydro Sale Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): My question is for the Minister resp onsible for Hydro (Mr . Neufeld) . Mr.

Speaker, given the fact that the Minister has stated publicly that if the hydro sale to Ontario proceeds then the Conawapa mega Project must pr oceed, I am wondering if the Minister would tell us when the decision was made .that Conawapa was the best site, and has your department taken any cost benefit studies on this mega pr oject compared to other mega projects, and will you share that information with the House please. *

(1400) Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): I have said that if the sale to Ontario Hydro goes thr oug h, the next pr ojec t on the Nelson will be Conawapa, and it will be. If we do not go ahead with Conawapa, we do not have enough energy to sell to Ontario Hydro in terms of the numbers of megawatts that they will require. We have done the studies of which pro jects have to go ahead with or without a sale to Ontario Hydro. If a decision has been made that if the Ontario Hydro sale goes throug h, and only if the Ontario Hydro sale goes through, then the next project on the Nelson will be Conawapa.

Environmental Impact Study Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): I would still like that information shared with the House if the Minister would take that under advis ement. Further to that, Mr . Speaker, will the Minister commit to environmental and economic impact studies and public hearings on the Canawapa pr oject before any of the portion of that project begins? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Min ister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker , Manitoba Hydro has always lived within the environmental laws of this province.

If the studies have to take place we will be so informed, and all studies that are req uested will be undertaken. Public Utilities Board Study Mr. John Angus (St. Norbe rt): I have a fina l supp lementary. Will the Minister advise whether the Public Utilities Board interpr etation of The Crown Corpora tion Act is or is not required to review this and judge on this mega pro ject as to the impact it may have on consumer rates in Manitoba? Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): I am not quite certain of the question, Mr.

Speaker, but if he is asking whether or not the Public Utilities Board is to rule on the construction of a next project, that is something that is still up in the air. I do not think, and I have said this before in this House, that the building of another project for the sale of power to another jurisdiction will not affect the consumer prices in Manitoba. 1345

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 Manitoba Literacy Council Granting Policy Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Acting Minister of Education (Mr s. Oles on). The Minister announced some weeks ago the formation of a literacy council and announced appoi ntments to that council. In that press relea se he indicated that the literacy council's sole function at this point would be to distribute gr ants that had pr eviously been distributed by the Department of Education. My question to the Acting Minister, is that the sole purpose of this council? Hon.

Charlotte Oleson (Mini ster of Family Services): I will take the question as notice on behalf of the Minister of Education (Mr . Derkach). Literacy Programs Funding Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie), with his supplementa ry question. Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker , the Minister of Education (Mr . Derkach) and the Government of the Day wasted some $300,000 on a red undant study that had already been done by the department.

My question is, can the Acting Minister explain why some $500,000 that is available from the Secretary of State for Literacy proje cts has not been tapp ed by the provincial Department of Education, why there are no applic ation forms for community groups, why the $500,000 is not working for Manitobans- Mr. Speaker: Order , please. The Honour able Acting Minister of Education. Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Mini ster of Family Services): Thank you, Mr . Speaker. Again, I will take that as notice on behalf of the Minister. I am sure he will bring the information back to the House.

Literacy Programs Community Groups Funding Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon, with his final supp lementary question. Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): We have heard from the Premier (Mr . Filmon) on a consistent basis that the provi nce is working with the federal Govern ment to improve things in the pr ovince. We have another exam ple of the provi ncial Government not having its act together, not accepting money that is available. Wi ll the Premier instruct the Minister of Education (Mr . Derkach) to get onside with commun ity groups who want to provi de Literacy training?

Will he instruct the Minister of Education to release the appl ication forms so community groups who want to provide the training can access those funds? Will he do that now? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, without accepting any of the pr eamble of the question, since I am sure we cannot rely on its veracity, I will take that as notice on behalf of the Minister of Education. Native Policy Development Advancements Mr. Herold Driedger (N iakwa): I have a question for the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Downey).

Last June the Minister promis ed that a major pol icy announcement on behalf of the Native community would be made within a day or two. That was 92 days ago, Mr. Speaker. The Native community is still waiting. Will the Minister take the oppor tunity I am aff ording him today to: (

a) indicate what subject the announcement is to be on, (

b) What pol icy might be addressed by that announcement, and (

c) whether he would indicate to the House and the Native community whether he still intends to make this announcement, if he sti ll has intentions of doing so. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs, and Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker , to my honourable friend, what I would have to do is check specifically what was said in Hansard .

It could well be that there were many announcements made that Members of the .ii Opposi tion missed and real ly did not identify as in the , interests of the people of Manitoba, because it is not uncommon for them to vote against things that are of benefit to the people of Manitoba, like the cuts in taxation. Mr. Herold Driedger: On behalf of the Na tive community, I would say that is possibly an insult, but I will let them determ ine that. Native Affairs Secretariat Director Mr.

Herold Driedger (N iakwa): Wo uld this apparent inability to fulfill intentions declared in this Chamber be connected to his inability or unwillingness to make a decision in appointing a permanent director to the Native Affairs secretariat, a position vacant for more than 16 months now? Hon. James Downey (Mini ster of Northern Affairs, and Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that .i the Liberal Critic has not done his homework. We have , had a Native Affairs secretary over the past 16 months. It is unfortunate that he is not able to unders tand what governing is all about and who is in what position.

We have a Native Affairs secretary acting on behalf of the Native community. He is also the Deputy Minister of Nor thern Affairs. Recommendations Mr. Speaker: The Honour able Member for Niakwa, with a final supp lementary question. Mr. Herold Driedger (N iakwa): Why then has the Min ister not yet implement ed any of the recommendations of the review of the Native Affairs secretariat which he mandated with such fanfare on August 5 of last year and tabled the following December 15? Why authorize the review if he then has no intention of doing anything with it? 1346

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 Hon. James Downey (Min ister of Northern Affairs, and Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, the Native Affairs Secretariat Review tied in with the urban Native strategy which we have carried out over the last few months, which I asked the Leader of the third Party and the opposition Party at a meeting with ur ban Natives for their full support. There has been lots of action, lots of policies, very sincere, far gr eater than what we have seen come from either the other two Parties on behalf of the Native community. Municipal Assessments Legislation Mr. John Plohman (D auphin): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Rural Development (Mr . Penner) that concerns municipal assessment. I would like to ask the Minister what the status of his municipal assessment propo sals are at this par ticular time and when he expects to pr esent that package to the House, to the Legislature. � Hon. Jack Penner (Mi nister of Rural Development): As the Honour able Member opposite knows, the We ir Report was presented to the former administration in 1982 which made some very specific recommendations as far as assessment reform is concerned.

I understand that staff in the department and the former administration have been working towards assessment reform legislation for a long, long time. We have since in our Go vernment proceeded to work towards assessment legislation. When the legislation will be ready, we will then introduce it into the House. Hopefully, that will be in the not-too-distant future. Consultations Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Dauphin, with a supple mentary question. Mr. John Plohman (D auphin): Mr.

Speaker, can I ask the Minister if he can advise this House what grou ps, what organ izations and individual Manitobans has he � consulted with, prior to introducing this to the House, ' and what groups does he intend to consult with before bringing this forward to the Legislature? *

(1410) Hon. Jack Penner (Min ister of Rural Development): Again to the Member opposite, we intend to and we have consulted with the municipal organ izations, with the farm organ izations and intend to keep on discussing with those organiza tions concerns that they have addressed and brought forward. I want to assure the Ho nourable Mem ber for Dau phin that continuing discussions will take place until all the concerns have been addressed that have been forwarded to us. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Dauphin, with his final supp lementary. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Speaker, I did not hear from the Minister what specific groups and organizations and individuals he has consulted with or intends to. I ask him specifically whether he will take the initiative of meeting with the Native organ izations to ensure that their interests are protected when this package is being developed . Mr. Penner: If there is a request to meet on specific issues from either one of the organizations or any organ ization in the provi nce dealing specifically with assessment reform legislation, Mr. Speaker, I am quite willing to sit down and have those discussions with those organ izations.

Klinic Community Health Centre New Facilities Mr. Guizar Cheema (Ki ldonan): Mr. Speaker, Klinic is a prime example of community-based health care, and it is being ignored by this Minister of Health. Klinic pr ovides a variety of services such as prim ary health care, education and mental health services, but Klinic is desper ate for a new building. Mr. Speaker, my question is, can the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) tell this House when Klinic will get a new building? Hon. Don ald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Mr .

Speaker, I look forward to debate in the Manitoba Health Services Commission Estimates wherein we will be tabling the Capital Estimates, and I would hope my honour able friend would spend more than the 30 minutes that he and his Party spent on debating $1.4 billion of health care spending that they did last year. Some Honourable Mem bers: Oh, oh! Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, this answer has been repeated at least 50 times in this House and he is desperate for good news, but for the people of Manitoba he is bad news, Mr. Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, Oh! Municipal Hospitals New Facilities Mr.

Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, the Municipal Hospital is facing a similar condition. Can the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) tell us if the Municipal Hospital will get a new building in this year's budget or not? Hon. Don ald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Mr . Speaker, I realize my honourable friend is a new Member to this Legislature. There is a process by which Capital budgets in the Department of Health and the Manitoba Health Services Commission are tabled and debated in this House, and he is well aware of that. Mr.

Speaker , the only shameful aspect of health care in the Provi nce of Manitoba appears to be the gr owing lack of touch with reality that my honourable friend, as critic, demonstrates in some of his statements recently and in the near past. 1347

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 St. Boniface Hospital Maternity Ward Ex pansion Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, due to the lack of post-part um beds at the St. Boniface Hospital, it has been closed at least 35 times since he took over. My question is this: can he tell this House if the St. Boniface Hospital will get funding this year for the expansion of the matern ity ward and the labour floor? Hon. Donald Orchard (M ini ster of Health): Mr .

Speaker, it is my full intention to discuss that issue with my honourable friend in more than the half an hour that they took last year for the entire $1.4 billion of spending in the Manitoba Health Servic es Commission. Now, Mr. Speaker, those issues were issues at this time last year when my honourable friends in the Liberal Party, in 30 short minutes, passed $1.4 billion of health care spending without so much as a single question. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! ***** Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order . Mr . Speaker: Order , please; order , pl ease.

The Honour able Member for Kildonan, on a point of order . Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, this person spent 30 minutes discussing about his perso nal friend dur ing the last Estimates. If he did not spend 30 minutes, we would have spent more time on the health question. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member does not have a point of order . Time for oral questions has expired . NON-PO LITICAL STATEMENTS Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker , I am wondering if I could have leave to make a non political statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honour able Member for St.

Johns ha ve leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) The Honourable Member for St. Johns. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today is the grand opening of the Resource Library and the Consulting and Training Service of the Manitoba Child Care Association. On behalf of the NOP Caucus, I would like to offer our sincere congra tulations to this organ ization and hope that all Mem bers join with me in paying tribute to this very special occasion. The .Resource Library is a new service which is intended to provide information on areas of interest to the child care community.

Housed in the Library is a collection of child care rel ated books, audio-visual material and journals, and we would like to send our best wishes to the library technician, Jan ice Holl osy. The consulting and training service is a service to help enhance quality child care, effectiveness of the board of direct ors, and the capa bilities of the administration system.

Our congra tulations in this respect go to the director, Karen Kristjanson, the advisory committee chairperson, Garth Eastoe, and members of that committee who are Shauna Collins, Marlene Doney, Dorothy Dudek, Anna Faber, Cla ire Funk, Richard Hutchings, Lisa Macdonald, Irene Patterson and Gay Sutton. I hope all Mem bers join with me today in sending our best wishes to both the Resource Library Committee and the Consulting and Training Service of the Manitoba Child Care Association on this special occasion. Thank you. Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): May I have leave to make a 4111 non-political statement, Mr.

Speaker? • Mr. Speaker: Does the Honour able Member for Ell ice have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) The Honour able Member for Ellice. Ms. Gray: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Certainly, the Op position joins with the third Party in congra tulating the Manitoba Child Care Association on the opening of their resou rce library, and I think the Member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasyly cia-Leis) has certainly said it well, as to what the resou rce library would be about.

I think it is important to note, I would like to say on behalf of the Opposition that I think the Manitoba Child Care Association should certainly be given full marks and credit for the initiatives that they have been taking over the last number of years, as a pr ofess ional association, in regard to developing resou rces in the community and in regard to moving ahead and looking at what ways they can best serve their membership in this province. 4 I think the resou rce library, which they worked long and hard on, is an excellent example of their fore sight and their willingness to work for their membership and to develop resou rces in the community.

I think it is important to note that the Manitoba Child Care Association is having their open house this evening, and I, along with the Member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylyc ia-Leis), look forward to seeing all Honour able Members there this evening. Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, may I have permis sion to make a non political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Minister have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mrs. Oleson: I would like to join the other Members in congra tulating the MCCA on their opening of their 1348

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 resource centre. I intend to go this evening to their opening cer emonie s and bring them my personal gr eetings at that time. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you be so kind as to call the Address for Papers standing in the name of the Honour able Member for Churchill (Mr . Cowan), followed by the one in the name of the Honour able Member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylyc ia-Leis). ADDRE SSES FOR PAPERS Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): I move, seconded by the Member for Thompson (Mr . Ashton): THAT an Address for Papers do issue prayi ng for: (

a) a copy of the Repor t on Churchill Rocket Range conduc ted by Ja mes Sp iece Associates of Wi nnipeg ; and (

b) copies of all work ing papers and documents related to the report; and (

c) copies of any staff analysis of the repor t to date. MOTION presented. Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, with respect to question (

a) in this address , subject to the appr oval for release by the Go vern ment of Canada, this is accept able to the Government, and with respect to question (b), subject to the appr oval of James Spiece Associates of Wi nnipeg, this part of the Add ress for Paper s is acceptable to the Go ve rnment, and (

c) is acceptable to the Govern ment. Mr. Cowan: Mr. Speaker , I seek some assistance in direction from yourself, in that those conditions are not acceptable to myself as the author of the Address for Papers, and I have had some discussions with the Minister responsible for the production of the repor t and the Attorney General, the Gover nment House Leader (Mr . Mcc rae).

For that reaso n, I would like to indicate that I would like this matter held over for debate, on the assurance from myself that I will not call for or initiate a debate on this par ticular issue until after October 6, which is a date at which time the federal Gover nment should make a determination as to whether or not it will pr ovide for the release of the repor t and app rove of it. *

(1420) Mr. Speaker: In order with Rule 49. 1, the item will appear on the Order Paper under the appropria te heading under Priv ate Mem bers' Busi ness. The Honourable Member for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis). Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I move, seconded by the Member for Churchill (Mr . Cowan), THAT an Address for papers do issue pr aying for: (

a) copies of all written materials between the Minister respo nsible for the Depart ment of Family Services and the Premier regar ding the termination or transfer of Department of Family Services employees; and (

b) copies of all written materials between the Minister of Family Services and the Deputy Minister of Family Services regard ing the termination or transfer of Depart ment of Family Services employees; and (

c) copies of all written materials between the Deputy Minister of Family Services and the Premier regard ing the termination or transfer of Department of Family Services employees; and (

d) copies of all written materials between the Department of Fa mily Services and the Premier regar ding the termination or transfer of Department of Family Services employees and the Premier regard ing the termination or transfer of Department of Family Services employees. MOTION presented. Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr . Speaker , this motion is acceptable to the Government. Mr. Speaker: Orders of the Day, the Honour able Government House Leader. Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker , would you be so kind as to call the Bills in the following order , and I have given you a list, for convenience. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. On the second Addr ess for Papers, is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Agreed and so ordered . Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, if you would be so kind to call the Bills in the following order, and I have given you a handwritten list: Nos. 27, 31, 32, 33, 35, 38, 12, 6, and the remainder as they are listed on the Order Paper. DEBATE ON SECO ND READI NGS BILL NO. 27- THE FISCAL STABIL IZATION FUND ACT Mr.

Speaker: On the pr op osed motion of the Honour able Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness), Bill No. 27, The Fiscal Stabilization Fund Act;

Loi sur le Fonds de stabilisation des recettes, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Osborne (Mr . Alcock) the Honourable Member for Brandon East. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, was going to say a few words on this Bill but I can say it another day. 1349

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to have this Bill re main standing in the name of the Hono urable Member for Osborne (Mr . Alcock)? (Agreed) The Honour able Member for Brandon East. Mr. Leonard Evans: Mr. Speaker , I just want to add a few remarks of my own to this debate on this particular Bill, a rather interest ing concept, one that we have criticized. however, because we are not so sure whose benefit this par ticular legislation is meant to be for. We are not so sure that it is a technique that is useful for the administration of the Province of Manitoba.

We have heard the explanation of the Minister of Finance (Mr . Man ness), and we do kno w that he is very conc erned about long- term budgeting, lon g-term planning and so on. I sup pose he would argue that this is a step in that direction. But we feel that the fund itself is real ly something that can be used, I suppose you could argue, that might make the Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness) look fairly better than he would otherwise in a year or two from now if the finances are not as good as they seem to be, or certainly not as good as they have been in the last year.

Our position is that the fund is not necessary, that these monies should have been spent in various ways, for various needed pr oject s, in so many departments. It is hard to list them, there are so many areas that do need attention. However , we have the legislation and our understanding is that if the Bill is not passed , then this money is lost and could not be utilized for various worthwh ile purp oses. On that account, as been explained pre viously by my colleague, the Member for Churchill (Mr .

Cowan), we will be supporting the Bill simply to ensur e that the money does not disappear back into never-never land. At that point, if the money disappear ed, it would simply be appl ied to the consolidated revenues of last year and to that extent we do not see much benefit from that money being used in that way. We were hopeful, therefore, that thr ough support of this Bill that the monies can be retained and utilized for various worthwhile pr ojects, for various programs, for various departments that are underfu nded and certainly there are many areas that are deser ving of attention by the Government.

To name just a few of them, Mr. Speaker, we have been debating day care centres and the lack of funding for staffing of these centres. Certainly, that is an area that could have been improved upon. Some of these monies can and should be used at some point for such centres to impr ove the salarie s and wages of these underpaid workers. There is no doubt about that. The Seniors Directorate was under question today, or in the past. Again, there is an area that monies could very well be spent.

We do not believe that there are really resou rces being dedicated to helping the seniors of this province, as was expected from the initial announcement of this director ate, as was expected by the seniors themselves who thought they were going to get something very useful in Government that would assist them in leading better lives in retirement. Certainly there are resou rces that should be directed to that directorate.

In the field of social services, it has come to our knowledge that mentally handicapped workshops are being underfu nded, or certainly there was an effort to cut back in the case of Skills Unlimited in Wi nnipeg. There have been cutbacks in other centres including ARM Industries in Bra ndon. I understand, Mr. Speaker, that the reduction in funding for that organization which has been around for many years and has done an excel lent job in pro viding useful emplo yment and training for handicapped people has had to red uce the work week for the individuals.

I have been advised that because of the reduction of funding, staff and the trainees would only be offered activity four out of five days.- (inter jecti on) - I did not hear the Minister's comment. It would be very nice to hear from the Minister if indeed that was now to go back to the five days out of fiv e days, as had been the case before. The organ ization has had trouble in the past financially, but it always has been bailed out, if you will, by the Govern ment. It has always been suppor ted by past Gover nments, including the one to which I was a ,411 Member.

I do not ever recall it ever having to cut back � on the amount of days per week of training and employment which has happened in this case. It is not very much money that is involved and yet it means so much to those individuals and to the families. I think that is very, very sad that the large number of people who can be usefully trained and employed in ARM Industries, look forward to going there, have now had to ha ve their work day, their training week red uced.

Similarly, in the area of Child and Family Services, one could go on and indicate how we might use some of these funds for various of the agencies in this province. I know in the West man area I have talked to many people associated with that organization and they feel that they are being under funded. They are in a very ser ious situation. I understand they are going to be writing to the various MLAs in West man to complain about their particular financial situation. One would wish that this was not the case but the fact is tha t they cannot cope.

They feel that they cannot cope with the burden, with the load of problems that they have, with the resou rces that this Govern ment is pr oviding. The � resou rces are simply not enough. One could go on and talk about other areas of health care, and I could use as an example, in Brandon, the Brandon Mental Health Centre, where there are all kinds of stories coming out from the staff of insufficient funds being pr ovided for the operation of that centre.

Particularly there are a number of nurses who have written to me, and perhaps have written to other MLAs, a concern about reclassification which is tantamount, as far as they are concerned, to the reduction of staffing of psychiatric nurses at that institution. Again, it goes back to lack of resources being pr ovided by the Government to that very excellent health care facility, the BMHC. In the case of the Brandon General Hospital, other examples, I have been flooded with letters from nurses who have worked there for some years and- An Honourable Member: Table them. 1350

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 •

(1430) Mr. Leonard Evans: We ll, there is no problem in tabling them. Yes, there are many, many letters. We hear a broken record across the way there, Mr. Speaker , I am not sure what he is getting at. Probably the Member for Arthur (Mr . Downey) received many letters as well. But I have many letters and I could table them if the Member is interested in them. Hon. James Downey (Mini ster of Northern Affairs, and Native Affairs): How many is many, Len, ten? Mr. Leonard Evans: Severa l. Mr. Downey: Now it is several. It was many, now it is Mr. Leonard Evans: 10, 15, 20, 25, 30.

I have 25 letters from Brandon Mental Health Centre itself. Is that okay? Do you want to meet with the nurses? Come, we will meet with the union and the nurses. I said many letters. We ll, there are not hundr eds of nurses who work at BGH, but we have them on file over the course of the last many weeks, letters complaining about the lack of funding of that organ ization.

They say, so I ur ge you-this is one letter from a person that was sent to me jus t before the Ho use started la st month, a reg istered nurse, a concerned member of MONA Local No. 4, lives in Brandon East who ur ges us to take, and I am quoting, ". . . so I ur ge you to take our concerns to the Legislature and push for a thorough examination and review of the system. However, we feel that in order for a review or an inquiry to have any validity we health care pr oviders or front line workers need to have input into this review.

We are suggesting that this repr esentation be determ ined by staff nurses, by either the election or the appointment in order to ensur e that we can provide accurate and impartial data." The tone of the letter, the intent of the letter is that they are not able to do the job that they want to do because of the lack of funding at BG H. I am quoting the last parag raph, "I hope that you can take our concerns ser iously and take action as soon as possible because our patients cannot nor should they bear the burden of this ongoing assault on the health care system any longer.

Thank you for listening." So there is no question. I know the Government set up a review committee to look at the financial needs of BG H. I am not sur e whether final determ ination has been made, but there is still a lot of concern about that institution being underfu nded and I am sur e that that story can be repeated many times around the pr ovince. Many, many other facilities can exp lain and put forward the problems that they are having through lack of funding. (Mr . Wi lliam Chornopyski, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) Mr.

Deputy Speaker, as we indicated, we are not overly happy with this particular technique of budgeting. I did speak to the Provincial Auditor some time back who at that time said as far as he was concerned this money was simply money that was not spent. I do not 1351 think he was very happy with the technique, that it was not the sort of clean way to run Government operations, or at least to set up Gover nment financial books, that there was perhaps better ways of hand ling these monies.

At any rate, as I said before, and as we under stand, if we vote against this the money will be simply used against the deficit and it will disappear. Therefore, to that extent, there will be fewer dolla rs to help those who are mentally handicapped or help those who have to obtain health care or those who need services from Child and Family Agencies. I did not intend to speak very long on this except to say that we are not happy with it, we have complained about it in the past.

We are still no t satisfied with the set-up, we are not satisfied that this Gover nment is spending money the way they should be spending money. They had the windfall of money from the mining, they have been very, very fortunate Mr. Deputy Speaker, they have been very fortunate. The Member for Arthur (Mr . Downey) the Minister of Northern Affairs is very fortu nate because he inherited the Gover nment at a time when there is a flood of money coming in because of hard decisions that had to be made by the previ ous Government, because of windfall -(interjection)- well, I have not seen you reduce them, really.

Why do you not reduce them? That is peanuts, you have not done anything significant. Where are they? Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Nor thern Affairs (Mr . Downey) speaks from his seat about how they have done a gr eat job by shaving off the payroll tax, the health and education levy, but frankly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, if you look at the numbers very closely what this Government has done is virtually insignificant. The fact is that the vast- An Honourable Member: Wha t did you do to the car rates? Autopac? Mr.

Leonard Evans: -w ell, you know they said they were going to get rid of the payroll tax, but they will never get rid of the payr oll tax unless they add more to the sales tax. The Member mentions Autopac rates. When is he going to red uce the Autopac rates? That has not occurr ed and it will not occur. In terms of the payro ll tax, let it be clear on the record that there has been no significant reduction. The tax is still there to that extent, -(interjection)- it is a very insignificant move that this Government has made. The Mem ber for Ar thur (Mr .

Dow ney) is embarrassed because it is still there a year and a half after being elected to office. He is embarrassed because it is still there. They said they would get rid of it. They have not gotten rid of it. That is the fact. They have not -(interjection)- okay, I am pleased to hear the Member say he is going to get rid of it, but what I would like to know is how this Minister and his Government are going to get rid of it. Wha t are they going to put in its place? You are talking, what, nearly $200 million a year, a substantial amount of money. Just where are they going to find that money?

Either they are going to cut back on health care, or services to the mentally handicapped , or child and family

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 services, or whatever, or they are going to increase some other taxes. If they are going to increase other taxes, what other taxes are they going to obtain? Are they going to increase income taxes to make up for the $200 million, or are they going to increase sales taxes to make up for the $200 million? I would say pr obably sales taxes, but I suspect, particularly with the hubbub and outrage in the community across the country about the 9 perc ent, that they would not dare touch sales taxes. I say that this Gover nment has failed on that par ticular score.

They have been very fortunate, Mr. Deputy Sp eaker. As I have said, they have also been fortunate in obtaining a windfall of federal transfer monies, very, very fortunate. They have been fortunate too in the fact that mineral pr ices soar ed. As a result of the skyrocke ting mine ral prices, many of our mineral companies, our mining companies in northern Manitoba have done very well. Their reve nues have come in, they are doing very well, par ticularly International Nickel at Thompson. As a result of that, this Government has received additional monies by way of royalties or mining taxes.

So there have been many, many sources of additional revenue. I do not know whether the Minis!er of Fina nce (Mr . Manness) and the Government will be as for tunate next year. I do not know whether the Pr ovince of Manitoba will be as fortunate next year, but this remains to be seen. In the meantime, this fund is here. We do not like it as such. We think that it is really a gimmick on the par t of the Minister of Finance, but nevertheless it is there and it seems the lesser of the alternatives for us is to vote for it. So I am merely repeat ing what my colleague, the Member for Chur chill (Mr .

Cowan), has said, that we will suppo rt it. Having said that, we are not at all satisfied with this as a technique. We are not at all satisfied that many serious areas that should be more adequately funded are not being addressed . I can assure you, we will do our best in the weeks and months ahead to continue to press this Government to properly fund organizations such as the Brandon General Hospital, or BMHC, or the various child and family service agencies, or the handicapped agencies, including ARM Industries.

At any rate, with all tho se interesting interjections, particularly from the Member for Arthur (Mr . Downey), I think I have made our point. At that I would welcome the Member for Arthur, the Minister, to participate in the debate and put some of his thoughts on record if he feels so strongly about it. Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the pro posed motion of the Honour able Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness), Bill No. 27 will stand in the name of the Honourable Member for Osborne (Mr . Alcock). COMM ITTEE CHANGE *

(1440) Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Deputy Speaker, move, seconded by the Member for Minnedosa (Mr . Gill eshammer), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts be amended as follows: Mr. Enns, the Member for Lakeside, for Mr. Derk ach, the Member for Roblin-Russell. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Agreed? Agreed and so ordered . BILL NO. 31- THE LABO UR RE LATIONS AMENDMENT ACT Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the propo sed motion of the Honour able Minister of Labour (Mr s. Hammond), Bill No. 31, The Labour Relations Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les rela tions du travail, stands in the name of the Honour able Member for St. James (Mr . Edwards). (Stand) BILL NO. 32-THE CITY OF WINNIPEG AMENDMEN T ACT Mr. Deputy Speaker: On the propo sed motion of the Honour able Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr . Ducharme), Bill No. 32, the City of Wi nnipeg Amendment Act; Loi � modifiant la

Loi sur la Ville de Wi nnipeg, standing in � the name of the Honour able Member for Fort Rouge (Mr . Carr). (Stand) SECOND READINGS BILL NO. 33- THE ECOLOGICAL RESER VES AMENDM ENT ACT Hon. Harry Enns (Mi nister of Natural Resources) pr esented Bill No. 33, The Ecological Reserv es Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les reserves ecolog iques, for second read ing, and be referred to a committee of the House. MOTION presented. Mr. Enns: In speaking briefly to the Bill at second read ing stage, let me sim ply rem ind Honour able Members that this is refinement of legislation that has been in place in Manitoba for some years.

It is designed specifically to preserve for posterity unique and rare • natural features of the pr ovince; habitats of rare and/ � or endanger ed plants and animals; examples of natural and mod ified ecosyste ms for study , research and education; and the aesthetic benefit for all Manitobans and visitors to Manitoba. We have, Mr. Deputy Speaker, some 12 ecological reserve areas currently set aside for posterity. They vary in scale and type of geography from all parts of Manitoba. Just recently one of the larger eco log ical reserves was established in the Nor th at the Baralzon Lake area. Mr .

Deputy Sp eak er, this is a program that Manitobans can be proud of in the sense that, certainly in keeping with world concerns about the preservat ions of our ecosys tems, this kind of legis lation very comfortably and appropria tely fits in with some of those identified objectives. Allow me, just for the record , to indicate that the checklist by the world conservation strategy group has these specific objectives in mind: 1352

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 pr evention of species extinction; preservat ion of as many varieties as possible of domesticated and other eco nomic or useful plants, ani mals and micro organizations and their wild relatives; the establishment of a comp rehensiv e network of pr otected areas, securing the habitats of threatened, unique and other important species, unique ecos ys tems and repr esentat ive sample s of ecosystems.

Additional concerns that have been ident ified by the Wo rld Conservancy Gr oup are maintenance of habitats of the species, prepara tions of the ecosystems evaluations, increased research to improve the management of living resou rces. Mr. Deputy Speaker , these specific areas provide unique study areas for curr ent schola rs who are concerned about this whole area of activity.

It is fair to say that more and more concern, more and more emphasis, and more demand for being able to use as benchmarks, if you like, these areas that are set aside under this program , and under the Act that we are speaking to, that make that kind of academic scholarly � study available, as well as for the enjoyment of the ' everyday Manitoban and/or our visitors to our province who place increasing emphasis on having this kind of habitat, this kind of species, this kind of unique ecosystems pr otected for all time. The Act before you , Mr .

Deputy Speaker , and Honourable Members of the House, is again not a large Act. It is fairly precise in the sense that it simply helps with the definition of the terms that are used in this field. It also encourages the voluntary contribution or introduction of priv ate lands to the program. The program to date essentially is applicable to Crown lands only. The 12 ecological reserve districts that have been set up to date under the Act during the last number of yea rs, dating back to 1973, are all on public or on Crown lands.

This Act makes it possible for priv ate lands to be considered and included in the ecological reserves program in a voluntary fashion. It sets out a little more pr ecisely and definitively the powers of the board that admin isters the Eco log ical Re serves Committee. Mr. Deputy Speaker, allow me to take this oppor tunity to read into the record who pr ecisely are the members of the board who pre side over the Ecological Reserves and their establishment here in Manitoba. They are curr ent membership: Dr. Jennifer Shay, Professor of Botany at the Univ ersity of Ma nitoba; Dr .

Karen Joh nson, Curator of Botany at the Manitoba Museum of Man and Na ture; Mr . David Hatch , who is an environmental consultant and bird columnist; Mr. Robert Wa ldon, a nature writer and past President of Canadian Nature Federation; Mr. David Wo tton, Head of Terrestrial Standards and Studies of the Manitoba Environment Group; and Mr. Ross Thomasson, who is Chairman and a member of my staff as Chief of Land Use Plan ning of Manitoba Natural Resou rces and Chairman of Canadian Council on Ecological Areas. This is a committee, Mr .

Deputy Speaker, that does not often make headlines on the ongoing work that the y do, but nonetheless, cer tainl y I wish to acknowledge the time and effort that these otherwise busy people -b usy lives these people live-to take time to sit on this commit tee and to pr ovide to the department, to the Minister, and to the Govern ment the kind of expertise, the kind of appl ied knowledge that they have possessed themselves, as profes sionals, in the very area that this Bill deals with, in helping us select the appropria te lands throughout the province, from time to time, as they are made known to us for consideration to be included in our ecological reserve pr ogram. *

(1450) So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I commend this Bill to Honourable Members oppo site. If I recall, on Friday last, when I had occasion to introduce one of my other pieces of legislation, the kind of obvious enthusiastic suppo rt I was receiving from Honour able Members oppo site had caused me to become somewhat excited about the legislative package that I was introducing to this Cham ber. Upon reading Hansard , Mr. Deputy Speaker, I may have gotten carried away with myself in catching that fever of enthusiasm for this legislation. But I again repeat what I said.

This is part of a crafted series of legislative proposals that I am privi leged to pr esent to this Chamber that have a very consistent and common theme running through them.

That is the preservation and concern for our natural resou rces in its very widest of all poss ible applica tions, from the endang ered species leg islation, concern about the groun dwaters, concern about our forestry renewal efforts, and now in this case, to set aside unique and special portions of our pr ovince in small tracts and in some instances larger tracts, that will ensur e that future generations of Manitobans, and scholars, and academics, and visitors and tourists alike, will be able to have this experience in nature in their pur suit of the environment as we have it today.

Sur ely there is that resp onsibility to pass it on to our future genera tions. Mr. Deputy Speaker, this is but another piece of legislation that will enable that to be carried out, and I seek the suppor t of Honourable Members for their consideration of this legislation. Thank you. Mr. Steve Ashton (T hompson): Mr. Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Brandon East (Mr . Leonard Evans), that debate be adjourned . MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 35- THE WILDLIFE AMENDMENT ACT Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs, and Native Affairs): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, it is my understanding you will now call Bill No. 35. Is that correct? Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources) pr esented, Bill No. 35, The Wildl ife Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

loi sur la conservation de la faune, for second reading, and be referred to a committee of this House. 1353

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 MOTION presented. Mr. Enns: I want to encourage Honour able Members to listen to these brief explanatory notes because they may feel that common thread, preservat ion of our resou rces, is stretched some wha t thin with the introduction of the amendments to The Wildl ife Act. aut I want to assure them that nonetheless it still is there, even though we are talking about muzzle-l oading guns, and cyanide guns, and hunting and trappi ng, but I will attempt to do that. Mr. Deputy Sp eaker, from time to time The Wildl ife Act, which is

an Act that has been with us for a goodly number of years, is required to be pr esented back to the Chamber for modification and for amendments, and this is the case with the Bill before us, Bill No. 35, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In essence it contains three or four relatively minor changes, and I would rem ind all Members that they would of course have the oppor tunity at committee stage to seek out and search out further information from mem bers of the staff of the Department of Natural Resources, and always the opportun ity of hearing a public pr esentation on those occasions.

The Act before you a little more clearly defines the separa tion between the terms "h unting" and "trappi ng." We have found it, Mr. Deputy Speaker , to be difficult sometimes in certain restricted areas, wildlife management areas, to allow the continuance of trapping but be able to prevent hunting. For those reasons, I have been advised to make that clearer in the Act that enables us, in some instances where we for good management reaso ns believe that it is essential, to prohibit all hunting in a

part icular area. I might say, Mr.

Deputy Speaker , the depar tment and myself are faced with those decisions more critically this time around because of the severe forest fires which have de vastated large portions of our pr ovince par ticularly in the North where, for very understandable reasons, it likely will and has alr eady called for a restriction in past hunting practices, but not necessarily wanting to limit the oppor tunities, and in. some cases historic and trad itional oppor tunities by our Native brothers, from carryi ng on their trapping programs on those species that have not been injured or set back or have had their numbers decline because of such things as forest fires.

It enables the wildl ife resource officers to cope with that situation by separat ing the two and clearly defining a "trapper" and a "hunter." Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have fortu nately limited use of cyanide in the predator control programs in the pr ovince over the past number of years, and only under supervision of departmental officials, but nonetheless it is not illegal for people and pr ivate citizens to have cyanide guns in their possession.

We are concerned about the indiscriminate use of them and the possible harm and danger that they constantly are to the general popula tion, and perhaps more specifically to pets and other animals, so this Act, these amendments before you , expressly prohibit and make it il legal, the possess ion of cyanide guns in Manitoba. That to date has not been the case even though, as I said earlier , the use of cyanide, and I will more or less generally agree to that, has been severely restricted.

It is still possible to use cyanide and poison for the control of pr edator animals, or nuisance animals in some cir cu mstanc es , but only under the dir ect super vision of the Department of Natural Resources. The amendments before you now make it illegal for pr ivate persons to have cyanide guns in their possession. *

(1500) Mr. Deputy Speaker, another little amendment, and that comes about because of the increased activity and interest in our sportsmen who will find the black powder type of hunting involving the muzzleload ing firearms, who under the Act, because of the pr actice with the regular firearms -the firearm must be discharged or emptied before it can be taken into one's vehicle. It is a safety feature that is in there. A hunter can be, and has been for a number of years, charged with having a loaded gun in his vehicle.

That is both a safety and a pr ecaution against the � indiscriminate shooting at game from vehicles. That makes it a little easier for enforcement to enforce the prov ision that it is illegal to hunt from vehicles, for instance. So the proh ibition against having a loaded firearm in a ve hicle has been in the statutes for some time, but the appl ication of this provision in the current Act has been deemed to be not appropria te for the muzz leload ing arm which then called for him to discharge the muzzleloader every time he took it in by removing the cap.

You know, we have been per suaded, and officials of the department persuaded , the weapon is disarmed . I might say it saves them from a lot . of unnecessary blasting off of the muzzleloaders every time somebody goes into his vehicle, in the event that he has not discharged his gun for some other reasons while outside of the vehicle. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think that more or less covers the amendments to the Act.

I, again, invite Honour able Members to pur sue any questions that they have of these amendments to me and to my officials during its passage through committee, and commend this legislation to the consideration of Honourable Members opposite. I know that they will consider it with all the wisdom that they will bring to bear on this and all other legislation. I commend it heartily for their positive consideration. Thank you , Mr .

Deput y Sp eaker , for you r kind assistance in allowing me to pr esent th ese Bills and inform Honourable Members that with this legislation that likely completes the leg islative program that I will be presenting to this Chamber for consideration dur ing this Session. Mr. Harold Taylor (Wolseley): Mr. Deputy Speaker , I would like to adjourn the debate, seconded by the Member for Fort Garry (Mr . Laurie Evans). MOTI ON presented and carried. 1354

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 COMMI TTE E CHANGE Mr. Kevin Lamour eux (lnkster): Yes, Mr . Dep uty Speaker, I have a committee change. I move, seconded by the Honour able Member for St. James (Mr . Edwards) that the composition of Standing Committee on Public Accounts be amended as foll ows: The Honour able Member for St. Vital (Mr . Rose) for the Honour able Member for Osborne (Mr . Alcock). Thank you. Mr. Deputy Speaker: So ord ered . BILL NO. 38- THE STATUTE RE-E NACTMENT AND BY-LAW VALIDATION (WINNIPEG) ACT Hon. James Mccrae (Government House leader) pr esented Bill No. 38, The Statute Re-enactment and By-law Validation (W innipeg) Act;

Loi sur la readoption de lois et la validation d'arr etes concernant la Ville de Wi nnipeg , for second rea ding, and refe rred to a committee of this House. MOTION presented. Mr. Mccrae: Mr. Deputy Speaker, before pr oceeding to second reading of Bill No. 38, I would like to table docume nts tha t are part of that Bill. I have had discussions with the other House Leaders, and I believe I have their agreement to maintain the proced ure put in place earlier for the re-enactment process whereby the number of copies of Acts to be re-enacted are limited. I believe there is agreement, as well, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, to waive Rule 84 such that it will be sufficient for me to table one certified copy of each by-law and agreement being validated by Bill No. 38, as opp osed to app ending copies of such by-laws and agreements to every copy of the Bill. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I wonder if there would be unanimous agreement to waive Rule 84 in this regard . At this point, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to table the roll of statutes that are being re-enacted by Bill No. 38, and the certified copies of by-laws and agreements that are being validated by Bill No. 38.

I am pleased today to speak at second read ing stage of Bill No. 38, The Statute Re-enactment and By-law Validation (W innipeg) Act. All Honourable Members are familiar with the re-enactment process in which we have been engaged since the 1985 order of the Supr eme Court of Canada, which declared Manitoba's laws to be invalid for failur e to enact in English and Fr ench. We were given two deadlines by the court, Mr. Deputy Speaker , before which we were to re-enact in Engl ish and French , print and publish our laws.

In this connection, I am very pleased to report that the first deadline of December 31, 1988, was successfully met. Before that date, the following categories of laws have been re-enacted and published . First, Acts contained in the continuing cons olida tion of the statutes of Manitoba; second, regulations; third, rules of court and quasi-judicial tribunals. 1355 This year, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the office of the Legislative Counsel has been working diligently as usual to pr epare for the consideration of this House those Acts requiring re-enactment and publication before December 31, 1990.

The categories of Acts that remain are, first, unconsolidated public Acts, which includes those Acts which, over the years, were not included in the CCSM because they were not of sufficiently general appl ication that they needed to be published in the loose-leaf statutes as well as in the red-bound Sessional volumes; second, municipal Acts, which includes all Acts rel ated to municipal Government in the pr ovince; third, priv ate Acts which as all Honourable Members know, are those Acts resulting from Bills presented on the pe tition of priv ate groups to the Leg islativ e Assembly.

A series of Bills will be pr esented to the Legislative Assembly between now and, hopefully, June of 1990, to accomplish the re-enactment of these Acts and permit us to publish them by December 31, 19 90. Bill No. 38 is the first of two Bills required to effect the re-enact ment of muni cipal Acts. As Honour able Members will note, the Bill deals with all City of Wi nnipeg related matters, including The City of Winni peg Act; The St. James-Assiniboia School Division No. 2 Act; The Taxation of the Canadian Pacific Railway by the City of Wi nnipeg Act; the Wi nnipeg School Division No. 1 Sinking Fund Trustees Act.

As well, included here as schedules to The City of Winnip eg Act are portions of the following Acts that continue to be relevant to the functioning of the City of Wi nnipeg, The Metropol itan Wi nnipeg Act; The Gr eater Wi nnipeg Sanitary Districts Act; The Greater Wi nnipeg Water Districts Act. These are all of the remai ning Acts of the Leg islatur e re quir ing re enactment that rela te to the City of Wi nnipe g. Honourable Members will note that 347 Acts are being repealed by this Bill as being of no further effect. Bill No. 38 has the further purpose, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, of val idating by-laws and agreements which had pre viously been validated by statute. The by-laws and agreements tabled today were validated in the past by this Legislature, and

Section 4 of Bill No. 38 has the effect of ensuring that the validation already effected by the Legislature does not lose its effect on December 31, 1990. I would like to take this oppor tunity, Mr. Deputy Speaker , to thank those persons on the staff of the City of Wi nnipeg, the Department of Urban Affairs, and the Legislative Counsel office, who worked many hours to review thousands of pages of material, the result of which work we are seeing here today. I am sure all Honour able Members will join with me in extending that thanks to those individuals. It was not my intention to make a lengthy speech about Bill No. 38. In

summary, let me say that Bill No. 38 has the effect first of re-enacting in English and French all current laws related to the City of Wi nnipeg that to date have been in English only; second, repealing obsolete Acts rela ting to the City of Wi nnipeg; third , validating certain by-laws and agreements of the City of Winnip eg which formerly had been validated by this Leg islature.

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 With that, Mr. Deputy Speaker , I would move second read ing of Bill No. 38, The Statute Re-enactment and By- Law Validation (W innip eg) Act, and ask all Honour able Members for their support. * (15 10) Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): I move, seconded by the Member for Osborne (Mr . Alcock) that debate be adjourned. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Agreed ? Agreed and so ordered . COM MITTEE CHANGE Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): I have a committee substitution, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I move, seconded by the Member for Brandon East (Mr .

Leonard Evans), that the com posit ion of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts be amended as follows: the Member for Flin Flon (Mr . Storie) for the Member for Churchill (Mr . Cowan); the Member for Brandon East (Mr . Leonard Evans) for the Member for Ruper tsland (Mr . Harper). Mr. Deputy Speaker: Agreed? Some Honourable Members: Agreed . Mr. Deputy Speaker: Agreed and so order ed. BILL NQ 12-THE LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY MANAGEM ENT COMMISSION AMENDMENT ACT Hon. James Mccrae (Minister of Justice and Attorney Gener al), on behalf of the Premier (Mr .

Filmon), pr esented Bill No. 12, The Leg islativ e Assem bly Ma nagement Commis sion Amend ment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la Comm ission de regie de I' Assemblee legislative, for second read ing, and be referred to a committee of this House. MOT ION presented and carried. Mr. Mccrae: Mr. Deputy Speaker , on Bill 12 and on behalf of the Premier (Mr . Filmon), I should like to commend Bill 12 to the attention and supp ort of Ho nour able Mem bers. This Bill comes out of a resol ution of the Legislative Assembly Management Commission, an all-Party commission of this Legislature. The Bill could be character ized as a housekeeping Bill which delegates to the LAMC certain powers relating to the emplo yees of the House. Mr.

Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Mr. Deputy Speaker, we of course have looked at this Bill and I would ha ve to agree with the House Leader for the Government side that this is essentially a housekeep ing Bill which does nothing more than remove some of the authority of the Speaker to trans fer some of his resp onsibilities to other Members or other members of his staff. As far as we are aware, this is simply a case of housekeeping that will restrict the amount of delegation that is possible by the Speaker, and we have no objections to it. Mr. Leonard Evans (B randon East): Mr .

Deput y Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Osborne (Mr . Alcock), that debate be adjourned . MOT ION presented and carried. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS BILL NO. 6- THE LAW REFORM COMMISSION ACT Mr. Deputy Speaker: On a propo sed motion by the Honourable Minister of Justice (Mr . Mcc rae), debate on second reading of Bill No. 6, The Law Reform Commission Act; Lc;>i sur la Commission de reforme du droit, standing in the name of the Honour able Member for St. James. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Mr.

Deputy Speaker, � with a little trepida tion, I get up for the second time , in this continuation of this Session to speak in the House. The last time I felt I was treated quite rude ly. I woke up the next morning and heard myself screaming on the radio and I felt badly about that because I do not normally do that as all Members in this House know. I was forced to do that because Members of the third Party were screaming at me and I had to get my point across.

Anyway, I stand up this time a little more confident that I can get my point across without having to raise my voice and speak on The Law Reform Commission Act. The Mi nister resp onsible for the Wo rkers Compensation Board (Mr . Connery) says he hopes I make sense. That is generally what I do and I am sure he will agree with that. I want to commend the work of the Law Reform Commission in coming up with their own Act. They were mandated to do that by this Minister and I congra tulate them on getting to the job with some priority in coming up with this Act which appears before us today.

I might also say about the third Party that I notice they have not spoken to this Act yet. I think they may be a bit embarrassed to speak about this Act because, qu ite frank ly, it was in re spons e to the pr evi ous administration that this Minister reinstated the Law Reform Commission and they have not spoken to this. I look forward to hearing them speak on it, I can say. In any event, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, I think this was perhaps the first question I asked in this House as a Member of the Legislature, if not the first, one of the first, on the Law Reform Commission and on reinstating it and giving it funding and independence. I might say that the Minister of Justice did respond in kind and obviously treated it with the same prio rity that I did and our caucus did. The work of the Law Reform Commission is legendary. It has provided updating and revising of statutes in this pr ovince for some years now and has provided 1356

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 many, many very useful reports to legislators which have worked their way into the laws of this province and have served all Man itobans, of course, in par ticular those who end up in our courts. The fact is that the work of the Law Reform Commission goes beyond that into statutes which affect all of our every day lives. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to take this oppor tunity to congratu late all of the Members of former Law Reform Commissions because I know from experience, also being a pr actising lawyer, the value of what they do.

They take out of the law those things which have become red undant, those things which are not in keeping with the way society thinks today, and we are in a changing society and we need to recog nize that. It changes rapidly and it is very important that the laws keep up. The fact is that in this House some of those laws become red undant or need impr ovement and revision and we as legislators are no t always aware on a daily basis of what those laws are and the technicalities involved .

Therefore it is very, very important that we have a body like the Law Reform Commission that is constantly reviewing our laws to determine where we need to go and what we need to change. Every jurisdiction in this country has seen fit to constitute a Law Reform Commission. I know that there is a general movement in the common law world to have Law Reform Commissions and many of them work in concert with each other. I think that is a very useful thing. We have seen as our world gets smaller and we are dealing internationally more and more, the need to unify laws. The Law Reform Commission can do that.

It can, in effect, take the initiative where perh aps legislators do not see the real ramifications in the business world of cer tain laws and certain conflict between laws. The Law Reform Commission is the eyes and ears in the legal community and in the community at large to predict what changes we need to make to our commercial laws and other laws which will allow us to better compete and better trade with the rest of the world. That has been a very important function of the Canadian Law Reform Commission and indeed the provincial Law Reform Commissions in this country.

We took the back seat in pretty well the entire common law wo rld when our pre vious Government decided to strip the commission of its funding and in effect of its power. I think, I and certainly Manitobans who are active in the legal community and all Manitobans if they knew the full work of the Law Reform Commission would shar e in the disappointment in that decision. It was out of a need for funds that the pre vious administration needed a lot of funds and took them wherever they found them.

This was one that they thought maybe would not cause much of a fuss, and they just scooped a bit of money and who would real ly care anyway. Well, the fact is, Mr. Deputy Speaker, there was an outcry, it was appropr iate, it was justified and certainly our Party took up that cause in the course of the last election campaign, as did the Party that now forms the Government. We were very happy to see appro ximately a year ago, the co-operation in this House to get the Law Reform Commission back to its full effect. Mr. Deputy Speaker , I want to take a brief look at the Act itself. In effect,

Section 2 states that, and I want to quote this one

section because I think it is important, "In no case shall the affairs or the duties of the Commission be wound up or altered unless the Legislature so provide s." In effect that takes it out of the hands of the Cabinet and makes it a legislative agent, a body that serves the Legislature. *

(1520) I think that is appropria te given the fact that this body functions, unlike other boards and commissions, not in an adjudicative function. They are not making decisions over people 's lives. Wha t they are doing is in effect resear ching and stud ying the laws and trou bleshooting for the entire pr ovince. I really think it is appropria te that it be a legislative committee, in effect a legislative commission, given that that is there role. Their role is not one that is politically motivated or pol itically biased in any way.

The role of the Law Reform Commission is simply to give the best advice to the legislators as to what laws we need to impr ove and revise and update. It strikes me as I listen to the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mcc rae) speak about a prior Bill, another of the re enactment statutes, when he said that 300-and-some odd statutes were going to be repe aled. It strikes me as appropria te to comment on that as something that we can see the Law Reform Commission as doing.

That is to tell us when these public and private statutes become red undant so that we can get them off the books and do no t cloud up our laws in this province. Heaven knows we have enough laws in this province already, those that are red undant we do not need hanging around. Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is also encour aging to see that with the constitution of the commission, which is to be between five and seven commissioners, at least one of those will be a non-lawyer. That is very important.

I think it is appropria te that there be representation from the non-legal community. ·Although many of the discussions are obviously technical and require legal training as you get into the intricacies of the various Acts, the fact is that it is important to have at least some represen tation of a perspective other than legal tr aining. I think that is the tradition of the Law Reform Commission that has been incorpora ted into this Act. We certainly think that is appropria te, because non lawyers can bring to the discussion perhaps an aspect that is not readily ascertainable by those who are trained legally .

It is important to have that voice at the commission level in order to bring in that aspect on a reg ular basis into the discussions on laws that indeed affect all of us. Mr. Deputy Speaker, going on through the Act, the duties of the commission are quite clear.

I quote again, "impr ovement, modern ization, and reform of the law," and then it goes on to say, "including without limiting the generalit y of the foregoing, removal of provisions that are outdated or inconsistent, the maintenance and improvement of the administration of justice." Again, the prior administration left us in a dire mess when the administration of justice, land titles office, the court 1357

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 backlog, you name it, go through the ad ministration of justice in this province. We were not par ticularly well served by the prior administration. The fact is that we have brought to this House our concerns and said that was a priorit y. We are pleased to have seen in the last year that this Minister has on many occasions certainly taken our advice, accepted that it was a prior ity for us, and stated that it was a pr iority for him, and hopefully through co operat ive efforts we will be able to incr ease the accessibility and availability of justice to Manitobans.

I look forward to changes in that reg ard which still need to be made. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I want to say that one of the most important things about the law, just like textbooks in schools, is that they do not keep up with society, and sexism is a perfect example of that. Our laws, you will often find even today, reflect the now outmoded belief that we live in a male-dominated society, or tha t we should live in a male-dominated society. The fact is our laws need to reflect that society has changed and that we want non-sexist language whe rever that is possible. That is another important function.

We can maybe say, well it is not such a big deal, but the fact is it is a big deal. It is important that our la ws reflect what we believe, and if they are incorpora ting sexism, then it is important that we change that, because the laws are held up as something that the public should look to, should respect and want to uphold.

It is extremely important that we always be on guard to monitor our laws and make sur e that they do reflect what we truly believe and what we feel, because when a law is chastised by the public, and is seen by the public not to be reflective of how they feel and what they feel justice is, all of the laws suffer and all of the legislators suffer. If the law is embarrassed in the face of the public, we all lose because the administration of justice, as much as being real , is also per ceived, and it must be perceived to be just and swift and effective. (Mr . Harold Gill eshammer, Acting Speaker , in the Chair) Mr.

Acting Speaker, I note that at Clause 7 of this Act there is provision for the Minister to direct that the commission study certain pr ojects on a priori ty basis, and I think that is important as well. *

(1530) The commission and the politicians, it seems to me, should be able to work in co-opera tion. In those situations where the Legislature feels that a certain Act has come to their attention and it is par ticu larly outmoded, is par ticularly in need of impr ovement, I think that they should be able to go to the Law Reform Commission and say, as they have in the past, we need some swift action on this par ticular piece of legislation because we perceive it to be of pr es sing public importance. That has been done in the past very effectively.

This very Act that we are discussing today is a reflection of such a direction, with the Minister directing the Law Reform Commission to study their own Act, or to study their own constitution and come up with

an Act that would reflect their aspirations in the ongoing impr ovement of our laws in this pr ovince. Mr. Acting Speaker, the Law Reform Commission also receives funding from the Manitoba Law Foundation, which is a foundation set up from monies received from trust accounts which lawyers hold in this province, and those trust accounts, which are often turned over on a shor t-term basis, a day or two, literally hold millions, if not billions of doll ars in the course of a year. Even though it is only a day or two of interest perhaps, at each time those monies add up.

Rather than those monies ending up being added to those trust funds, what happens is they are taken and put into the Manitoba Law Foundation, which then go es and giv es grants to the Commun ity Legal Educ ation Association , the Manitoba Law Reform Commission, and other bodies to improve the access to jus tice in our pr ovince, and rais e the level of consciousness about what the law is and how to access Manitoba's justice system. So those are important contributions to the Law Reform Commission. Of course the Legislature must � carr y the pri mary burden for funding the Law Reform Commission.

I think we have all come to that consensus. Even the third Party has joined us belatedly. Having cut the funds just a year and a half ago, it appe ars that they now support the concept that the Legislature has an ongoing resp onsibility to supp ort the work of the Law Reform Commission. Let me say in respect of that decision, better late than never. Mr. Acting Speaker, it is with pleasure that we consider this Bill. While it is not of gr eat length, it is certainly of gr eat importance.

We want to com mend, to the Party that has not yet spoken on this Bill, their supp ort of it We certainly sup port it, we look for speedy passage and I think at the comm ittee stage there may be a few min or amendments which may come forward . However, I think we can look forward to this Bill passing in substance at an early date, and I am sur e the Law Reform Commission and the people of this pr ovince, in particular the legal community, will applaud our efforts in that reg ard. Thank you, Mr. Acting Sp eaker. Mr. Leonard Evans (Br andon East): I would move, seconded by the Member from Fort Garry (Mr .

Laurie Evans), that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. BILL NO. 7-TH E INTERNATIO NAL SALE OF GOODS ACT The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gilleshammer): On the propo sed motion of the Honour able Minister of Jus tice (Mr . Mccr ae), Bill No. 7, The International Sale of Goods Act, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for lnkster (Mr . Lamoureux), the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr . Minenko). Mr. Mark Minenko (Seven Oaks): Mr. Acting Speaker, I would ask the indulgence of the House to allow the 1358

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 Bill to remain standing in the name of the Honourable Member for lnkster, and I would like to add ress some remarks on this. The Acting Speaker (Mr. Gilleshamm er): Leave? (Agr eed) The Honour able Member for Seven Oaks. Mr. Mi nenko: Thank you very much, Mr . Acting Speaker. The Bill that we have before us deals with quite a tremendous topic and a topic of tremendous interest to all Manitobans. It is quite an extensive attachment to the Bill. The Bill is a shor t eight sections long, and yet the

schedule attached to it is quite a number of articles and pages longer. It is an interes ting Bill, in that it certainly addresses the economic future of rural trade, and we would agree with some of the pr evious speakers on this Bill who said that we, as a provi nce, we, as Manitobans, do not stand alone in the world, and we are indeed a trad ing nation and a trading province. In Manitoba, some over 500 firms are indeed engaged in export of one sort or another, and manufacturing exports in this pr ovince accounted for some over $3 billion worth of sales. *

(1540) So indeed this Bill is an important Bill to be considered by the Legislative Assembly, that Manitoba is indeed a player in world trade, and that there have been many developments around the world that have very much had a gr eat impact on the province of Ma nitoba and the people who produc e materials, pr ovide services and provide the employment, which ultima tely leads to the ability of the Ma nitoba Government to provide services to its citizens in return.

Some of the dev elopments that I think this Go vernment should cer tainly be revie wing, and I cer tainly look forward to the Est imates of the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism, some of these developments that are having an impact on Manitoba now and are to have an impact on Manitoba companies, I would certainly hope that the Government is looking at these developments with a little bit more degr ee of care than they even reviewed the federal budget and its impact on Man itoba.

Throughout this Session we have pointed out to various Ministers about some of the effect that federal budget may have on Manitoba, and yet Ministers are unaware. For example, earlier this year I asked a question dealing the subsidy pr ovided to the publishing and printing industry in Manitoba, asked the question to three Ministers of the present Government, and did not hear an answer. They appeared certainly from their responses not to have even been aware of this particular provision in the budget.

I would certa inly ask this Go ver nment and the Ministers responsible to direct their departments to start reviewing some of these develop ments on the interna tional level that will have an impa ct on Manitobans so that we are better prep ared to take advantage, if there are advantages to be taken.

Not like, for example, with the Free Trade Agreement where 1359 this Gover nment seemingly wholeheartedly suppor ted the Free Trade Agreement, was an Opposition Party in this House for a number of years, liked to tell people that they were certainly ready to govern and were ready to get going without any jump start required. Yet I am concerned that the programs with respect to free trade have yet to be put in place. Certainly the Minister of Ind ustry and Trade (Mr . Ernst) has started some seminars that are even being conducted as we speak today, dealing with exports.

I believe his department is involved · in the planning of that. There has been some material that I have been reading about and requesting from his department on some of the other programs they are looking at, but we are certainly a number of-n ine months-in to the prog ram and I would have thought that any effective Government that liked to pride itself as good managers would have planned some of these programs ahead of time, so that when the Free Trade Agreement actually did come in place, people were in a position to take advantage, instead of waiting some several months later.

One of the major issues, I believe, that we are encountering on the international trad ing level is the Single Europ ean Act which was signed in 1985 by many of the European countries. The aims of this Act were many, and I would just like to bring attention of the Members to some of these aims. The fir st aim was 1) the completion of the internal market in Europe, 2) the economic and monetary union, 3) social or economic cohesi on, 4) research and technological development, 5) environmental protection, and 6) political co-operation in foreign policy.

I think we would all agree that many, if not all, of these would have immediate and long-term impacts on Canada and specifically our province, Manitoba. In fact some of the impa cts of this imp ending agreement which is to become enforced , or certainly the first aim is being worked on right now to ensure that by December 31, 1992, there is a completion of an internal market in Europe. Now, many countries both here and around the world have been looking at this development with some concern, and planning their strategy as to how to best take advantage of that so that they are least affected by it negatively.

Just recently, November of '88, there was a mid-term repor t prep ared by the Commission of the European Communities, which claimed that the completion of the first aim, the internal market, is the key to the community's future, perhaps in react ion to other developments around the world including the Mulr oney trade agreement and the developments in Pacific Rim countries. What they did when initial ly they pa ssed this legislation in 1985, was they set up almost 300 directives of how this can come about.

Of the almost 300 directives as of the end of last year, 48 had been app roved, so they were well on their way to creating an internal mar ket in Europe. Some of the reaso ns why the European countries were looking to this is economic pr osper ity. They feel that if it is going to be completed,

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 this internal market, the European community will become a $4 trillion market for over 320 million people, comp rised of Belg ium, Bri tain, Den mark, Franc e, Gr eece, Ir eland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and West Germ any. So indeed many of the count ries that Canada trades with today, and indeed countries Ma nitoba trades with tod ay, are looking to develop this unified marketplace.

The y also feel tha t in addition to that sort of marketpla ce they are looking at that pric es charged to consumers will be red uced by about 6 perc ent, that two million new jobs will be created and that public deficits in the member countries will indeed decrease. Certainly last but not least, they will become the world's biggest exporter, accounting for 25 percent of world trade. So just simply looking and considering what those statistics actually reflect is indeed a powerful partner in world trade.

This mid-term report that was pr epared last year also said that there were three areas of success up to that date, that there was liberalized Maritime transport, that there were introd uced the measures for gr eater market openness and competition into the air transport area. Finally, an area that caused some concern in Europe was the whole issue of the road haulage quotas.

There were a number of areas that still had to be address ed, and we see from time to time in the general pr ess that one of the issues that is still outstanding and perhaps may remain outstanding for some time is the issue of the monetary system. Wha t is the unit by which this new market place will govern itself? (Mr . Wi lliam Chornop yski, Deputy Sp eaker, in the Chair) So here is one developme nt where we certainly have to, as re sponsible legislators, consider its impact on our province.

Interes tingly eno ugh, Cana d ian involvement with the European com munity has been on the increase over the last few years, having waned, I believe, for a certain period of time. This incr ease is both in trade and direct investment. However, reg ard less of whether Canadian firms chose to com pete for this larger market, they will definitely be faced with stif fer competition from the many developments resulting from the development of this internal market. *

(1550) One of the things with interesting statistics that certai nly we have been encountering here in our province is the whole issue of mergers. There has been a very recent escalation in the number of mergers and acquisitions in Europe rising from 884 takeovers in '87 to over 1,500 in 1988. Undou btedly in the European countries they are feeling the same effect that we are soon to be seeing here in Manitoba as a result of some of the mergers resulting from companies trying to get bigger to deal with some of these markets. Here again I think it is the Government's respo nsibility to work with industry.

We know how the pr evious Govern ment certainly worked with industry the last few years, and I certainly look to a vast impr ovement on how this Gover nment is going to be working with industry, because these kinds of issues have to be addressed before the events start happening. We have to look to an effective job adjustment strategy. It is not good enough to simply look at and count the number of people who are on one side of the ledger or on the other and say there are 13,000 new jobs or a thousand people more unemployed or 5,0 00 people more unemployed in Manitoba than there was before.

I think what we have to consider is the impact on that individual worker . I think it is the Govern ment's responsibility to work with both unions and with management to put in place various adjustment strateg ies. I look forward to hearing from this Government something effective, something that will deal with this problem. Quite frankly, the responses I received to my questions from the Minister responsible for Training (Mr . Derkach) fell somewhat shor t of the responses that I would have expected from a Government that likes to pride itself in being good managers and forwar d-looking people. So, Mr.

Deputy Speaker , this is one of the international developments that I think this Govern ment needs to consider when it looks to its own budget items, when it looks to its own planning, because they will have an impact. What they do some several thousand kilometres away will impact on Manitoba companies and Manitobans. Another development, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is the whole issue of the Pacific Rim. We look to new oppor tunities, and yesterday we heard from the Minister of Agricultur e (Mr .

Findlay) talking just a little bit about his two, three-week trip thr ough the Far East where he was looking for oppor tunities. I understand earl ier this year the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr . Ernst) spent several weeks travelling, presu mably promo ting Manitoba produc ts and Manitoba services, both in Europe and in the Far East. I certainly look forward to some develop ments coming out of those trips. I certainly feel that having a pr esence overseas is an important opera tion of Government.

Certainly things like new markets, trade oppor tunities that might be devel oping in count ries like Korea, should be considered by the Government, where over the last number of years we have seen the Koreans dev elop a series of five-year economic development plans to trans form their countr y from largely a marginally su bsistent ag ricultu ral economy to an export-led industrial economy. I think we have to consider what impact will that development have again on our province.

Are we again to remain dr awers of wood or water and wood and hewers, and so on, or can we really look to - (interjection)- dr awers of water and hewers of wood, as the Minister of Finance (Mr . Manness) comments from his seat I think that is a concern that we be not only that to the countries that are emerging out of the Pacific Rim. We also ha ve to consider some of the difficulties that have been encountered by our manufacturers and expo rters in China. Earlier this year, the end of March, the University of Manitoba, MBA Public Policy Seminar 1360

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 Gr oup pr esented a one-day, or morning seminar, of doing business with China, which I had an opportun ity to attend and listen to a number of speakers that they had about, "How do you do business in China?" I expect that some of the concerns they raised were concerns that would undoubtedly apply to many countries around the world.

Some of the speakers talked about-a nd this again was before the events of June of this year in China-the fact that 40 years of isolation, that those years of isolation cannot be taken care of in one year, that our manufacturers and exporters and people who are looking for investment oppor tunities in some of these Third Wo rld countries or some of the Pacific Rim countries, and specifically China, can expect things like power shortages. Many factories there share power that sometimes joint ventures are the rage, sometimes they are looked down upon by the host country.

That speakers encourage things and told our exporters and people that will be working and looking for investment in pl aces like China, that we have to be patient, that we will encounter problems with qual ity controls, communications and transporta tion, even things like difficu lty in labelling. All difficult ies that will be encountered, and we certainly have to look forward to add res sing. He re again is, I believe, a role for Government.

A role of Govern ment is certainly to red-flag some of the concerns, some of these issues, to at least allow our exporters a bit of a glim pse as to what they can expect overseas.

Other speakers expect to take many trips that you have to develop the confidence of people before you can expect to make a deal with them; that there are many concerns also about foreign exchange controls that a par ticular Government might have; that you have to keep your company flexible; that your contracts should be tightly dr afted, especially dealing with matters of release of money and matters like that and do not necessarily rely on transpor tation, being where you expected to be at the time you expected to be, and as well having a friend there, having an agent who will pr ovide you with the assistance to go through the bureaucratic levels and ensure that you arri ve at the destination you wish to be at.

You also can expect increased costs because going over there a number of times, you certainly cannot do business overseas from Canada, and certainly you have to look towards the long-term investment in many of these countries. So, these are some of the new developments, or developments that have been incurring in the last number of years which any Government at whatever level , when considering sales of goods as we have here before us in this Bill No. 7, has to keep in mind as to how all this may impact on our Manitobans.

I certainly would want to dr aw the attention to Honourable Members a series of articles that I think provide a good service to the general public, a series of articles in the Winnip eg Free Press that dealt exactly with this issue of export expert ise, where they set out many of the pr oblems that very few people really under stood. One of the difficulties that I was certainly advised of was the issue that in many situations there are 1361 knowledgeable people in various institutions and various industries and companies, knowledgeable about trade with a

part icular reg ion or a par ticular country and, yet, there is no real co-ord ination. There is no method in place right now to be able to dr aw upon the expertise of these people, to bring them together, to have them all tap in to a central resou rce and say, yes, this is the information that I have, so that someone who is interested in trade oppor tunities overseas is in a better position of understanding exactly what they are getting into. I think this is another area that the Government needs to address, cert ainly looked at. *

(1600) One of the articles that I referred to just last week, dealt with a whole issue of contracts that would be signed with world businesses and set some examples of where Manitoba companies had certain measure of difficulty and encountered delay when trying to recover their fees and money for the various pr ojects. Again, where they set out in this article, you have to consider these various things before walking into a venture. You have to consider restrictions on the amount of foreign exchange that par ticular countries may allow exported.

Such things as a wrong name on a line of cred it, a letter that was not signed by the proper official which may delay payments, may ultimately delay the whole pro ject. Again you have to look at political problems that may be encountered in any par ticular country to which you are export ing and collateral contracts, such as for insurance, transporta tion, and cred it.

Also as I mentioned earlier , the whole issue of foreign go ver nment re gu lations reg ard ing for eign pol icy curr ency restrictions and taxes and tariffs, where you want to be able to have a base from which someone who is interested in expor ting to another country thereby manuf acturing here in Manitoba, thereby creating more jobs- contact by which they can consider various aspects that they require, and that they go into a pro ject with a certain amount of knowledge.

I think many people would agree that you necessarily cannot consider all the problems that might arise, but certainly to at least be able to focus on a number of them and deal with some of the more perhaps obvious ones. One of the things that we have also seen happen over the last number of years is that through different motives various pro vinces of Canada have established and increased their profile throughout the world.

They have done this through a number of means-and more specifically-v arious provincial missions or trade offices around the world where, for example, in 1971, there were only 31, and this year there are approxima tely 70-all suppor ted by bureaucracies. I understand that var ious pr ovinces have various commitments to their overseas offices, varying from what I understand in Quebec, there is a Ministry of International Affairs with an annual budget of over $93 million. The Quebec Provincial Gover nment maintains some 26 offices with over 300 employees on five continents.

Other provi nces, Ontario have similar commitments, with some 14 offices, costing some $16 million a year. Even here in Manitoba we have pr esence overseas, one in Europe and the other in Hong Kong.

Wednesday, September 27, 1989 The concern that I have about-and the concern has been raised, brought to my attention by people who have been at these locations-i s that this Government should review the operat ion of these offices. One of the things that came up dur ing the discussions following some of the pr esentations in the seminar had earlier referred to was that some of the countries that we would be expor ting to, look to how we deal, look to the office that we have there as a rep rese ntation of Manitoba. Some of the people that have been to these offices have exp ressed some concerns.

We certainly look forward to dealing with this par ticular matter with the consideration of the Estimates of the Depart ment of Industry and Trade. I figure that if we are going to have a pres ence overseas, let us do it in a fashion that will be effective and respected by the people that are our target audience. With respect to Bill No. 7 and its impact on people and-in light of all these developments, I certainly think th at the Go ver nment has to consider these developments when considering this Bill.

There are cer tain questions and we certainly supp ort the idea of standardizing trade practices arou nd the world. One of the problems, I understand, that does abound is a misunderstanding as to what the laws may be. For example, someone coming out of Manitoba may have an idea of how they have done business here in Manitoba. And yet, even across Canada, we have different laws dealing with various issues. So as a result, I believe that this Bill No. 7, dealing with the international sale of goods and the United Nations convention on contracts for the sale of goods, is partly to address that important issue.

However, as Members of the Legislature we do have a respon sibility to review these Bills. We heard last Wed nesday from the Honourable Minister of Ju stice (Mr . Mccr ae) when he introd uced this Bill, where he said we have to pass the Bill as it is and we have to accept the Bill as it is pr esented. I think in the material that the Minister of Jus tice has pr ovided there cer tainly

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-38
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 38.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
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