Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 27B (31st Legislature, 2nd Session)

31-2-27b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, April 24, 1978 Time: 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY- HIGHWAYS MR. CHAIRMAN, David Blake: Under discussion this evening are the Estimates of the Department of Highways . I would ask the Minister to introduce the Estimates of his Department. Mr. Minister. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I am more than pleased to do that , noting particularly the presence of the Honourable Member for St. Johns , the former Minister of Finance , who has always shown an abiding interest in Highways , and we will proceed with my short introductory statement.

I am rather proud to say that this year 's Budget contains the largest Construction and Maintenance Program ever presented in the Province of Manitoba to this Legislature . It is a balanced construction program encompassing the entire province . The total construction budget has been increased by $8 million to a total of $75 mi llion , and the maintenance budget has been increased by $1 .7 million . Of the major construction programs to be started this year will be the four-laning of PTH 59 from PTH 44 to PR 508, a distance of some thirteen kilometers .

Also the four-laning of PTH 12 from Steinbach to the Trans -Canada Highway is going to be commenced during this construction year . Considerable dollars will be earmarked for the continuation of the four-laning of PTH 7 from the Perimeter to the Stonewall access , a total of some 21 kilometers in distance. While mentioning Budget increases , the grant to the City of Winnipeg for street construction will be increased from roughly $10 million last year to $15 million in this fiscal year . I think that that ought to be of some interest to our city members .

The Department of Highways Strengthening Program is cont inuing and major expenditures will be spent on PTH 12, 10, 4 and the Trans-Canada Highway , in total , in the federally co-shared sponsored program of highway strengthening . The causeway over White and Schist Lakes on PTH 10 will be surfaced and this year be opened for traffic. This project will reduce the highway distance from Flin Flon to The Pas by some 10 kilometers, six miles . Another highlight of this year's program will be the asphalt overlay and gravel-base coarse shoulders on the Trans-Canada Highway from Headingley to west of Elie.

This has been of continuing complaint by truckers who have driven that route , and I am sure that the truckers of this province and national truckers will welcome that comfort that that will provide. This encompasses a distance of some 44 kilometers . Also the asphalt overlay from PTH 59 from the Perimeter to PTH 213 is encompassed in this program. A major upgrading program will commence on PR 391 , asphalt leveling will be undertaken from Dunlop to Wabowden as well as from Soab Lake to the Thompson Airport.

Major construction by way of rock shoulders , rock re-enforcement of sub-grade , and base bituminous surfacing will commence from Wabowden to Soab Lake road , a distance of some 37 kilometers. The final 34 kilometers between Lynn Lake and Leaf Rapids will be paved this year . Th is roughly is the highlights of the new construction program for the Department of Highways . There are, of course , numerous programs that will be undertaken under the $75 mill ion New Construction program , of which the members can apprise themselves of in the program that has been distributed to them .

We have tried , i n the allocation of moneys available to us, to divide (

a) between the 12 highway distr icts that divide the Province of Manitoba , to divide it as equitably as we can bearing in mind certain particular needs. Certainly the northern district has again received a substantial amount of money , as has the City of Winnipeg received a substantial increase in moneys . There are a few other districts that have received what might be considered some inordinate increases in money butthat is largely because of the nature of the programs .

I refer to the four -laning of No. 12 Highway from Steinbach to the Perimete r; the four-laning in that district encompassing the four-laning of No. 7 to Stonewall. These involve major commitments of dollars and increase the involvement in that particu lar sect ion . Now let me deal briefly with the Motor Vehicle Branch for which I also have some responsibility . During the year 1977 Manitoba experienced a 4 percent growth rate of licensed drivers .

Numbers rose from 546,000 to 570,000, reflecting an increase of 24,000 licensed drivers in the province with 66 percent of the active driving popu lation being 44 years of age or younger . Vehicle registration during 1977 increased from 627,000 to 664,000 for a growth rate of 6 percen t. Commercial vehicle registrat ions increased in 1977 to 19,245 from 16,731 in 1976, reflecting an increase of some 2,514, or 15 percent. The most substant ial increases were in the area of the PSV trucks which rose from 3,766 to 4,565, or an increase of 21 percent.

CT trucks also rose from 9,567 to 11 ,476, or an increase of 20 percent. To prov ide a bette r service or to ach ieve savings in the operating costs , the registrations of all 1191

Monday, April 24, 1978 commercia l vehicles was computerized. In 1977 snowmobile registrations increased to 38,879, which has reflected a33 percent increase. This increase was partly due to the unusual lack of snow which Manitoba experienced during the 1976 winter season' subsequently causing registrations to be below normal levels during the 1976 season . I am pleased to advise the honourable members that the snowmobile safety training program developed by the Motor Vehicle Branch was recognized by the Snowmobile Safety and Certification Committee as being one of the best in North America .

Preliminary figures reveal that accident rates have increased in Manitoba during 1977. A total of 40,563 accidents were reported , reflecting an approximate increase of 8 percent. Injury increases also increased from 7,381 to 7,619, reflecting a 3 percent increase . Although the loss of life is tragic, a preliminary report indicates that a total of 180 lives were lost on Manitoba highways during 1977 which compares with 213 deaths in 1976. I am pleased to advise that this represents a decrease of some 15 percent over the previous year.

I would pause for a moment to remind members that when you consider that we have had a 4 percent growth in licensed drivers, a 6 percent growth in licensed vehicles , coupled with a 15 percent decrease in fatalities on Manitob a highways, that has some measure in terms of the effectiveness of the law enforcement in this province , of the driver safety programs in this province , and in the manner and way in which the Motor Vehicle Branch is trying to bring about greater safety on our highways . It may also account , Mr.

Chairman , as some reason why the Minister isn't particularly pressing forward with compulsory seatbelt legislation at this time . In all , over the last three years , there has been a reduction of app roximately 20 percent in the number of lives lost, giving Man itoba one of the best records in the country . Convictions under the Highways Traffic Act dropped from 88,800 to 88,600, represen ting a ,. negligible decrease . It is interesting to note that 66 percent of the convictions registered under the Highway Traffic Act were for speeding offences .

I have some hesitation as to wonder what those increases will be like next year after the introduction of the metric system and the encompassing speed reductions . It is my hope that they will not increase . During 1977 preliminary figures reveal a total of 8,924 convictions under the Criminal Code relating to the operations of a motor vehicle . Of these, 7,229 related to drinking and driving- an increase of 15 percent over the previous year . The number of suspended drivers dropped from 26,500 to 25,700 in 1977- a decrease of 3 percent.

The four leading reasons for the suspensions imposed were as follows: alcohol-related offences tops the list , failure to pay fines, cancellation of probationary licences, and multiple convictions and/or accidents . The Motor Vehicle Branch conducted a total of 3,500 show cause hearings and written submissions during 1977. The total of 5,662 driver improvement road tests were conducted under the Driver Improvement Program , the failure rate being approximately 10 percent.

In addition to the road test , 13,400 counselling interviews were conducted with approximately 2,000 drivers being referred for a defensive or performance driving course . These persons came to the attention of the Motor Vehicle Branch and were acted upon due to the fact that either they had become involved in too many traffic violations or acc idents , or both. Driving testing administered some 47,090 road tests during 1977, excluding the driver improvement tests aforementioned . The failure rate on an overall basis of first attempts was 33 percent.

Class 3 reflected a 6 percent failure rate, as opposed to Class 1 and 2 which revealed a 9 percent failure rate. ,.... A total of 112,131 written tests for the various classes of licences were completed . The failure rate ranged from 41 percent in the higher classes - reflecting that drivers in these categories require more skill and knowledge -to an overall average of 25 percent for all drivers. The Physical Standards

Section . whose function is to process medical informat ion on drivers to ensure that they meet the minimum medical standards , processed some 21,029 medical reports during 1977. As noted , this

section was extremel y busy due to the fact that some 12,900 cases of license medical recalls were processed in order that the first phase of the class license conversion for Class I to IV inclusive be completed . The remainder of the 21,029 transactions consisted of dealings in the areas of medical suspen sion s, register recalls , interview letters , and renewal applications . The dealer

section issued some 611 permits in 1977, an increase of approximately 5 percent from 1976. A total of 1,422 permits were handled by the

section including 770 salesmen permits and 38 wrecker permits. The Motor Vehicle Branch Inspection Program was in operation from April to November , 1977 a total of some 33,500 vehicles were inspected . The inspection lanes again demonstrated that a substantial amount of vehicles on the highways are defective to varying degrees. Upon first inspection 34 percent succeeded in passing the inspection ; 62 percent failed and 4 percent were found to be in hazardous condition resulting in immediate cancellation of registration .

Of the heavy duty vehicles inspected 61 percent failed on first inspection , a decrease of 8 percent over the previous year. However , upon initial inspection 6 percent had serious defects . The Snowmobile Safety Program did not expand during 1977. Presently there are some 305 instructors throughout the prov ince . During the 1977 season some 1,490 snowmobile operators took the course which brings the tota l to 7,000 persons successfully completing the course. Accidents involving snowmobi les during 1976-77 decreased from 95 to 84 or approximately 12 percent.

Injuries also decreased from 83 to 65, which is approximately 19 percent. There were . unfortunately , six fatalities during the 1976-77 season as opposed to seven during the year 1975-76, reflecting an 1192

Monday, April 24, 1978 approximate decrease of 14 percent. The decrease in statistics reveals the dedication and hard work which has been put forth by the Motor Vehicle Branch in this field . Promotion of the Bicycle Safety Program continued during 1977 to include rad io, newspapers, school and yearbooks , distribution of bicycle handbooks and safety posters to elementary schools and enforcement agencies. The back-to-school safety display during the latter part of August was also included .

In co-operation with a number of schools and recreation departments during May through August the branch provided instruction to children through the program. In 1977, approximately 32,000 children participated in the program which is based on defensive driving aspects . The province 's Driver Education Program is in its twelfth season of operation. During 1976-77 a tota l of some 5,700 students successfully completed the course. A total of 235 instructors are conducting courses in 43 Winnipeg high schools and 72 rural high schools for a total of 115 schools where the course is available . Mr.

Chairman , this concludes the Motor Vehicle Branch

section and with that I certainly would want to commend the assistance and the capable direction that the Deputy Minister and Registrar of Motor Vehicles , Mr. Peter Dygala, has given to this department over the past year . And of course I would also add to that the capable direction that the Deputy Minister of Highways has given to that department , Mr. Joseph Brako . I commend these Estimates for the consideration of the Committee . MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you , Mr. Minister . It is customary now to leave the Item 1.(

a) the Minister 's Compensation to the last item for debate and I would direct the committee now to move to Item 1.(

b) Administration

(1) Salaries $670,000.00. I will recognize Mr. Cherniack . MR. CHERNIACK : Thank you , Mr. Chairman. I would ask the Honourable Minister if he could ind icate to us what the expected expenditure of his department will be in this fiscal year? MR. ENNS: If my executive assistant were on the ball he would see to it that I would have these things in order, but ... he obviously . MR. CHERNIACK: Maybe he wasn 't here at 4:30 to find out what the question would be. MR. ENNS: The expected expenditures , both current and capital, for the year 1978-79 are of the order of $160,545,400.00. MR.

CHERN lACK: How much additional does the Minister expect to commit but not spend in that year? MR. ENNS: I don't hear the question , Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: Will the Member for St. Johns repeat the question? MR. CHERNIACK: Yes. I asked what the expected expenditure would be. That would mean , to me, the cash disbursement. I assume that in addition to that the Minister will have committed certain moneys that would be paid in the following fiscal year . MR. ENNS: Some $45 million . MR. CHERNIACK: In addition to the $160,000,000? MR. ENNS: Yes. MR.

CHERN lACK: May I then ask how much was spent , approximately, in the previous fiscal year? MR. ENNS: The total provision was in the order of $149,510,885.00. MR. CHERNIACK: The term used was the total provisionS; was that spent? MR. ENNS: The gross expenditure in the year 1977-78 was $146,967,900.00. MR. CHERNIACK: That's the gross expenditure . MR. ENNS: That's correct. MR. CHERNIACK: How much was committed in addition to that? MR. ENNS: $40 million. 1193

Monday, April 24, 1978 MR. CHERNIACK: In addition . So $186,900,000 was spent and committed in the previous fiscal year? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Highways . MR. ENNS.: That's right. MR. CHERNIACK: And there's $205 million expected in this year to be spent and committed? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman, that's not quite right. In the strict vernacular of the problems of running the Department of Highways, we have to commit considerably in excess to what we know from experience we can actually spend .

If I do not overcommit, I have a construction program of some $75 million this year - experience , not my experience but the experience of my staff has indicated to me as indicated to the previous Minister, that to come close to spending that $75 million, he has to commit some $120 million or $110 million. MR. CHERNIACK: Would the Minister care to elaborate on what he means by "commit. " To let contracts? MR. ENNS: To the Honourable Member for St.

Johns , to attempt to put together a $75 million construction program , with the vagaries of weather and the shortness of season, and with the availability of contractors , you have to commit- to try to spend $75 million you have to commit $126 million. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman, the Minister said it before and he repeated himself . Now you have to commit. Does that mean let out contracts? MR. ENNS: That's part of it. MR. CHERNIACK: . . of whatever figure that was? MR. ENNS: In many cases. MR. CHERNIACK: Well , what is a commitment if there is no money spent and no contracts let? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I can short-circuit this conversation by saying that my legislative authority stops at $75 million and at $75 million the Department of Highways stops. And we run into a carry-over program as has been traditional over the years . MR. CHERN lACK: Well , then, the spending authority , is in excess of $75 million , if this vote passes. MR. ENNS: No, not spending authority . I'm only asking for $75 million . You asked me what I was committing. MR. CHERNIACK: What is the Minister 's total spending authority? MR. ENNS: $75 million for new construction , and not a cent more . MR. CHERNIACK: Well, Mr.

Chairman , does the Minister then waive any authority from previous capital , authority unexpended or uncommitted? MR. ENNS: We have no previous capital author ity unexpended from previous authority. It is all used up. MR. CHERNIACK: When the Minister says that , he says, "We." He means the Department of Highways? MR. ENNS: The Department of Highways . MR.

CHERNIACK: But there is unexpended authority in General Purposes of which Highways is part and there is an excess of that , is there not? some $28 million was allocated to a Capital Supply Bill of which only $15 million was spent ; 1975-76 , again , an additional supply of $7 million was voted in the Capital Supply Bill , retaining that $15 million authority ; in 1976-77 , some $4 million was revoted , retaining the Capital Authority to $15 million ; 1977-78 , the $15 million was spent. MR. ENNS: That 's a question you have to direct to the Minister of Finance. MR.

CHERN lACK: Let me direct a question to the Minister of Highways , Mr. Chairman. Where does the Mm1ster of H1ghways bel1eve that he has an authority now under Highways when he says this capital authority . 1194

Monday, April 24, 1978 MR. ENNS: I am hoping that this Committee will pass the $75 million that I am asking them to pass and if they pass it, then I have the authority to spend $75 million of new construct ion program . MR. CHERNIACK: In last year , the Min ister said that he had committed . and spent- not he- but there had been committed and spent some $186,900,000.00. How much of that was under the construction item? MR. ENNS: I am advised , Mr. Chairman , that we are talking now about all Current money . MR. CHERNIACK: I don 't know what you 're talking about - I'm talking about money , Mr. Chairman.

The government has, in its wisdom , combined the two . So I'm asking how much was spent and committed last year? Well , the answer was $186,900,000.00 So I'm asking how much of that was the Construction Program? MR. ENNS: Some $63 mill ion . MR. CHERNIACK: Well , then , since it shows an authority - I don 't see it for Current- there's author ity of $41,495,000, then how is it that the Minister reports some $60-odd million having been spent? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, it is an accumulation of Capital Supply Bill dating back to a number of years .

For instance , in 1974-75, some $28 million was allocated to a Cap ital Supply Bill of which only $15 million was spent; 1975-76, again , an additional supply of $7 mill ion was voted in the Capital Supply Bill , retaining that $15 mill ion authority ; in 1976-77 , some $4 million was revoted , retaining the Capital Author ity to $15 million ; 1977-78, the $15 million was spent. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , I tried to slow up the Minister because I couldn't follow his speedy reading, so I must ask him to repeat it. How much was authorized in 1974? MR. ENNS: The short answer, to the Honourable Member for St.

Johns , is that some $15 million of previous Capital Supp ly was spent in addition to some $11 million or $12,088,000 of the Federal Government's Highway Strengthening contribution , making up a total of $29 million which is the missing $29 million that troubles the Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERN lACK: Mr. Chairman , he can shorten it as much as he likes but I still don 't understand him . He will have to spell it out. And I'm not troubled by $29 million - he is. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I have just spelled it out. MR. CHERNIACK: Well , all right , let's get back to 1974.

I'm looking at the 1974 Capital Appropriation. I don 't see any amount set aside for Highways , so I assume some part of General Purposes was used for Highways . Is that correct? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , the Member for St. Johns knows full well that I was far removed from the seats from government at that time. I would assume that his government at that time set aside certain Capital amounts for expenditures of Highways . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman , the Minister cannot avoid the fact that he is the Minister and is responsible to know not only what is going on today but what went on before , so that he is able to carry forward a program . Now, his department should be more knowledgeable than any former Minister as to how much was taken out of Capital of the 1974 appropriation. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , for the benefit of the Member for St. Johns, I will repeat , then, more slowly , that in the year 1974-75 , out of a Capital Bill Supply of some $28,779,000, $15 million remained in that year. MR. CHERNIACK: Well , Mr. Chairman . MR.

ENNS: No, if the member will just allow me- $15 million remained . MR. CHERNIACK: For Highways? MR. ENNS: For Highways , dedicated to Highways . MR. CHERNIACK: Do you have that before .. . MR. ENNS: And in the year 1975-76 , an additional - your government voted an additional $7,311 ,000 into that Capital Supply Bill , bringing back the Capital Supply Bill , retaining it at $15 million . And in the year 1976-77 , you again voted $4,300,000 into that Capital Supply Bill for Highways to retain that base figure of $15 million in Capital Supply .

Now, in the year 1977-78 , that $15 million was drawn down totally - and that says something about the budgeting practices of the previous administration - and with the aid of the Federal Government's contribution of some $12 1195

Monday, April 24, 1978 million, makes up the $29 million missing dollars that you fellows have been trying to look for in Highways. Now, Mr. Chairman, I have explained that. I can do this three times around if you want to but if the Honourable Member for St. Johns has difficulty as a former Finance from grasping this arithmetic, then I would ask him to reassociate himself with some of his members in the Department of Finance. But I don't intend to repeat this question over and over again. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman , I must say to the Honourable Minister that I have not dared to talk to any one person who works for Finance lest he be fired . So I want to tell the Honourable Minister that I would not endanger their jobs by talking to them about former .. . Now , if he is inviting me to go to that office . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, let me make this very clear . MR. CHERNIACK: Please, Mr. Chairman, I have the floor . MR. ENNS: .. I invite the member . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Johns . MR.

CHERNIACK: If the Minister is going to authorize me to start dealing with members of the Department of Finance , he better make sure he does so with the authority of the Minister of Finance . I would be very happy to try to get information . But failing that , and today being the day when they are not available to me, I want to find out a little more, Mr. Chairman . It is not enough for the Minister to ~ read from his statement there without having to back it up. I happen to have in front of me a copy of the 1974 Capital appropriation. There is nothing there voted for Highways .

I have 1975; there is nothing there voted for Highways . I have 1976; there is nothing there voted for Highways . I have 1977 where there's General Purposes of $82 million of which $20 million is indicated for Highways but not voted because the Minister by now would know the General Purposes is flexible until it is allocated. So, he said that my government, "your government" was his words, had voted this $15 million unexpended in that year .

I don't see it was voted at all and the honourable member was in the House at that time and he voted for or against something and does he know whether any portion of that was Highways . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , firstly to the Honourable Member for St. Johns , I want to assure him that he or the Member for St. George , or the Member for Ste. Rose duLac, even the Member for Winnipeg Centre , as the Member for Wellington or St. Vital can speak to any members of my department without jeopardizing their jobs at any time . Our department is always prepared to speak to all MLAs , members of the Legislature .

So let's put that little story to rest. Now secondly , I know I am speaking to the former Minister of Finance and I know that even his government when they were voting a Capital Supply for General Purposes , had some consideration for the Department of Highways , and it was his government that allocated these sums that I just listed as being allocated to Highways under General Purpose Capital Supply Bill. Now the fact that it is not clearly or indicatively indicated in the information that the Honourable Member for St. Johns has, doesn 't change the facts .

The fact of the matte r is that the Department of Highways was notified by r the Department of Finance that these cap ital sums were availab le to them . MR. CHERN lACK: Mr. Chairma n, in the first plac e I wish the Member for Wolseley were here so he could find out that at least in the Department of Highways he would have access to servants of the department because he sure got into trouble when he started to ask quest ions of the Department of Finance . But he is not here so it is not for me to w orry about him. Mr.

Chairman, I have befor e me, a statement written out by the Provincial Auditor as at March 31 , 1977 showing unexpended and unraised capital authority in the years 1974, 75, and 76 which total some $27 million. Now that is for General Purposes, it is not for Highways because it was not appropriated to Highways . I therefore want to know just what happened in this last year , Mr. Chairman , where according to the Minister ther e was an expenditure of all the authority available to the Department of Highways . When was this done? When was it undertaken? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I am advised that there was some $2,000,433 allocated in capital expenditure to the City of Winnipeg which was not spent and which is being indeed recognized in this year's budget by increasing the budget to the $15 million mentioned in my opening statement. MR. CHERNIACK: When was it committed? MR. ENNS: Last year 's City of Winnipeg requests for major improvements within the City of Winnipeg , certain capital allotments . We work ed that integrally into the Department of Highways budget. The drawdown on that was some $2.000,433 less than anticipated. MR.

CHERNIACK: What side of this page are we talking about? 1196

Monday, April 24, 1978 MR. ENNS: That is not part of this page at all , it is part of the . . . it is the difference between the $27 million and the $29 million that you made reference to . MR. CHERNIACK: I don 't want to mislead the Minister ... $29 million , he should know , I don 't. I just know the total of $27 million from unexpended authority but I am not saying that it is Highway money . It may have been money for the Department of Agriculture , ~e haven '.t got the a!lswer _there yet. But the Minister now says that there is no unexpended , unauthonzed , capital authonty available for highways . . .

Although the figure on the left hand side of the P!'i!;le for last year _shows so.me $41.5 m111_1c;m _for construction , w know that that is part of some $25 m1llion f1gure that 1s shown tn the reconc11iat1on statement. Was all of that $25 million spent? MR. ENNS: Yes it was all spent , to the honourable Member for St. Johns . MR. CHERNIACK : And in addition to that the Honourable Minister says that more was spent. Can he indicate how much was spent on Highways? MR. ENNS: In total some $65 million was spent. MR. CHERN lACK: 1 am just doing some add ition .

That would mean that there is $24 million more spent last year than is shown in the Minister 's statement on the left hand page . MR. ENNS: That is correct. MR. CHERNIACK: How would this compare with that item in Agriculture that the Minister was listen ing to this afternoon where there was an amount shown on the left hand side which was not fully expended . MR. ENNS: Well , I think if the Honourable Member fo r St. Johns wil l recall the conversation that I had with him during the debates of the Department of Agriculture, right about now you are preparing to reverse your position .

We are not showing moneys that is not being expended , in fact we are expla ining moneys that had been spent in add ition to those that are being shown . MR. CHERN lACK: Well then it is the Honourable Minister and his colleague who are not showing the same kind of reporting in the Estimates . I am not reversing any positions , I am still trying to find out. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I have attempted to indicate to the Honourable Member for St.

Johns that there is undoubtedly some difficulties in adjusting to the new system of showing Estimates and I say this to him candidly and not in a belligerent manner , that we are now considering the Estimates of Highways and not the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture , and if my colleague , the Minister of Agriculture was not able to satisfy the Honourable Member for St.

Johns , as he obviously wasn't earlier on in the afternoon to explain the manner and way in which his reconc iliation with figures and printed Estimates , you know , appear , then I think quite frankly that the Committee took the appropriate action by adjourning the Committee and awaiting that information to come forward . But I have attempted to indicate to the Committee in as straightforward a manner as I can , the amount of money actually spent , where the money came from , dating back to 1974, 75, 76, and the amount of money that we are asking for Committee 's approval to spend this year . MR.

CHERNIACK: Does the Minister then , at this stage , reject the information given by the Government Information Services that ind icate an increase of one-third in highway programs over last year . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , Government Information Services doesn 't build highways and doesn't pay for highways . Whether or not they got the informat ion straight , I am not the Minister particularly responsible to answer that quest ion.

I bel ieve honestly that had the Government Information Services contacted members of my department in terms of the actual increase , the actual money spent last year as compared to this year, they would have come to the same conclusion that I reiterated and spoke to in the House when the Honourable Member for St. Johns asked me the questions , that in fact , this year , the Department of Highways has a relatively modest increase of some 7.3 percent over last year 's in our total new construction program .

Roughly from $67 million or $68 million , if you consider the $2 million that we feel owing to the City of Winnipeg that we are picking up this year , to the $75 million program th is year . I think if the Honourable Member for St. Johns would now like to accord me at least that privilege , that I was being truthful in the House when I answered his questions . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Johns . 1197

Monday, April 24, 1978 MR. CHERN lACK: Mr. Chairman , that appears to be so, we have yet to get more information on it. MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman , from the slippery Member for St. Johns I would expect only that kind of grudging acknowledgement that I could appear to be truthful. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , the honourable member will recall that he has had occasion to back away from statements he has made in the past and do it in a sort of gay abandon so he has to accord me the privilege in saying that his statements are subject to verification. MR.

ENNS: Okay, that's fine, then let's just call it that we are even now eh? I was wrong with the age of your best man at your wedding and you are wrong with your Highway Estimates . MR. CHERNIACK: Well , we'll see. MR. ENNS: Now , we can start from even. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , the $2 million or so going to the city is that recorded in the Estimates that are being requested? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Highways. MR. ENNS: It's in the total. MR. CHERNIACK: Well, then I assume it is in the $15 million under Acquisition, is that correct? MR. ENNS: I am informed that we are going to pay it out for last year .

MR. CHERNIACK: Oh, so it is not in the Estimates? MR. ENNS: I am told that in last year 's Estimates we had an actual authorization of $10 million to the city and paid them $12 million. And this is $2 million that picks up those missing $2 million that were authorized last year . MR. CHERNIACK: Well , just to keep our allocation correct , does the Minister really mean authorized last year or does he mean authorized in previous loan acts? MR. ENNS: This is part of the Capital Supply Bill that I referred to in the past that has been ongoing.

The city tends to treat it as capital authority and draw on it as they need . Some years their construction programs , because of the nature of the programs , they ask for and they receive from the province as they received la8st year, they received authorization for $10 million but in effect drew down $12 million. This year they asked for $11 million or $12 million but we recognized the nature of their programs- completion of such major facilities like the St. Vital Bridge , hopefully the start of the McGregor Street Overpass -and we have allowed and estimated in our budget for $15 million .

But then within $1 million or $2 million it is difficult again because of the vagaries of the construction business to pinpoint it to the precise amount. MR. CHERN lACK: Mr. Chairman , in view of the fact that the Minister says that he has used up all the authority available from previous years , where will he get the authority to commit $45 million more than he is asking for in the Estimates? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, from the goodwill and support of my caucus and the Members of the House. How do you like that? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Chairman , I like that sound , but as I understand it the provincial auditor would look somewhat askance at a commitment made without any authority . MR. ENNS: And that is why I said earlier when I reach $75 million I have to stop. MR. CHERN lACK: Mr. Chairman , the honourable member said that he is going to spend in this year $160 million, the amount shown here, $160,545,400, and then he said that he is going to commit another $45 million . And I am asking him on what authority will he make a commitment for the following year? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , all the Honourable Member for St.

Johns is demonstrating is that he is a lawyer and not a contractor , and that he doesn 't understand rural Manitoba or the kind of weather we work under . You do it with guts , Mr. Chairman and that is all it is because you recognize that to get that $75 million spent you have to over comm it. That is nothing new by the way , Mr. Chairman , that happened in D.L.

Campbell 's years , that happened in Duff Roblin 's years , that happened mall of Ed Schreyer's years and it is going to happen under this Minister's years , because I will want to spend and provide those roads and those facilities for the Honourable Member for St. George , for the 1198

Monday, April 24, 1978 Honourable Member for Ste. Rose, for the Honourable Member for Emerson, for the Honourable Member for Swan River to try to get -the Honourable Member for La Verendrye- I want to try to build .. .

If I get authorization to spend $75 million for new highways in this province I want to make damn sure that I spend them and to do that I can't afford the opportunity of all of a sudden running into a bottleneck because a landowner refuses rights to his land or because of a rainy season the contractor can't finish a contract , or because of a breakdown, or because of a contractor going bankrupt and that disrupts it. All these things add into the fact and people a lot smarter than me, Mr. Chairman , and lots smarter than the Member for St.

Johns , people that make their business and are professionals in the business of construction have told me- as they have told the former Minister of Highways , the Honourable Minister Burtniak , as they told the Honourable Minister Borowski, as they told the Honourable Minister Weir and others- that in order for the Department of Highways to spend X number of dollars you have to commit and you have to go out and overexceed that amount that you actually have authority for.

But , I will assure the honourable member that I will be within the restraints and restrictions that the provincial auditor places on me, and my Deputy Minister will see to it that I am, that we will be spending no more than the allocated amount of moneys than I am asking this committee to approve . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , I know the Honourable Minister and I don't recall seeing him during Public Accounts committee meetings here, I guess he is not a member, but you are Mr. Chairman .

I don't have the Provincial Auditor 's Me port here but as I recall it he was extremely critical and it seems to me that the Conservative Members were very pleased to note how critical he was about commitments without authority and yet it seems to me that the Minister of Highways is prepared to go against the provincial auditor's comments and to go ahead and commit the government to some $45 million of expenditure beyond the authority , and I marvel at his doing that with a concurrence of his caucus as he said, when he should know that a number of members of his caucus have participated in debates with the provincia l auditor and where they noted carefully the provincial auditor 's, rather I believe severe criticism of that kind of a pract ice.

MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I really believe that we have exhausted this subject. I can only remind the Honourable Member for St. Johns that in the last year of the previous administration the previous Minister of Highways committed some $101 million of construction based on $65 million of construction, actual authorization . I can also remind the Honourable Member for St. Johns that Highways isn't unique in this way . I am fully aware of the fact that (

a) that Ministers or departments do not commit money for expenditure without due and proper authorization from the Legislature , but Highways happens to be unique . We have for instance , since some time ago , had the authority to commit by pre-advertising , by pre-ternd pre-tendering- simply because we recognize again the nature of our short construction year- we have had the authorization indeed this year , as was the case under your admin istration other years , where we have actually let out contracts , pre-tendered upwards, and this year it was an amount of $18 million .

We let out contracts for $18 million of highways works for which the Department of Highways had no authority . Because , after all , I have no authority until the Legislature approves the money . Now , under the advice of the Auditor-General , we have had to put a clause in that says "subject to the approval of the Legislature " if we let this contract out. And I suppose a good lawyer would say, "Well , that's not an iron-clad contract ," and would not accept it. But the practice has been, over the years, recognizing how we conduct the highway construction program in Manitoba, that that has been acceptable .

And on that basis , we operate . MR. CHERNIACK: All right, Mr. Chairman, then in the first place, as I recall it, there was always capital authority available under general purposes to back up commitments made for future years . But I do understand there was the pract ice that developed where the department would say to a contractor , "We are prepared to give you a contract subject to our getting approval and you will gamble." And clearly , the Provincial Auditor was opposed to that practice .

Do I understand that the Minister , and therefore his government, are going to go ahead with this type of contract- which the Provincial Aud itor criticized - and which, I believe , was used? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , the Member for St. Johns is not correct. The Provincial Auditor said, "You shall not let out these contracts prior to the approval of any moneys the Department of Highways has." He said , "Only on the basis that you put that clause in." Really, in effect, an escape clause and on that basis the Provincial Auditor does not object.

And we are proceeding with the practice that was not initiated by the previous administration , or even the previous previous administration , but one of several decades standing . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , I want to invite the Honourable Minister to read the Provincial Aud iter's Report. I think that he will find that the Provincial Auditor says once the lawyers say that it is okay then I can't quarrel with the legality of it. But as I recall it, Mr. Chairman, he clearly quarrels with the practice.

And I think that there were gleeful members of the Conservative Party who pointed at that criticism by the Provincial Auditor . So, I just want to confirm that this Minister is going to continue that practice set by D.L. Campbell or maybe his predecessors in spite of the fact that I believe that the Provincial Auditor frowned on it, and I invite the Minister to read the Provincial Auditor's comments about the practice that he intends 1199

Monday, April 24, 1978 to continue . MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, one of the reasons why I will be forever grateful to my leader is that I have been given the opportunity to associate with engineers and not with lawyers . MR. CHERNIACK: And auditors . MR. ENNS: And auditors . MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll recognize now , the Member for St. Vital. MR. JIM WALDING: Thank you , Mr.

Chairman.! have been listening to the last exchange with some puzzlement and I would like to ask the Minister- referring to Page44, the Reconciliation Statement at the bottom, where it shows that the 1977-78 Main Estimates started off with $93 million, and by the addition of various lines came to $119 million, which is given at the top of that page . Yet the Minister has said that there have been other amounts spent over the year . I wonder if he could try again to explain it to me so that I can understand it. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman , with the greatest respect to the Honourable Member for St. \(ital , I really believe that we have covered this ground and there are some rules about repetition in the conduct of our committees . But , in brief, what is missing from the $119 million to the actual moneys spent is the $29 million I refer to- $27 million that was spent in prior authorized capital plus a $2 million pick -up that was overspent by the City of Winnipeg the last year .

That makes up the $29 million , which brings the total up to actual moneys- total provisions for the year 1977-78- to $149,510,885 as compared to the $160,000,000 that I am now requesting in this year's Estimates , for a total increase of $11,034,515, or an overall percentage increase of 7.3 percent. -(lnterjection) Pardon me, but that $29 million is made up of a $12 million contribution by the Federal Government under the Highway Strengthening Program , $15 million carryover capital and $2 million from the city. MR. WALDING: I thank the Honourable Minister , Mr. Chairman .

Can I just ask him, at the top of Page 44 there is a list there : No. 8. Acquisition / Construction of Physical Assets $13.5 million . Follow me so far? How does that reconcile with the amount at the bottom of the page under the Reconciliation Statement of $20 million plus $4 million, and the additional $49 million that the Minister has mentioned? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , the honourable member persists on asking the same question . It is reconciled with the $15 million of unexplained capital authority .

It is reconciled, in addition to that, with a $12 million of federal contribution and the $2 million already referred to that we are short from the city expenditures , for the total of $29 million. MR. WALDING: Let me try another question , Mr. Chairman . Did the Minister of Highways receive the documents from the Minister of Finance that he sent around referring to zero-based budgeting? MR. ENNS: Well , my Deputy Minister may have received it; I can 't recall that particular document. MR. WALDING: The Minister doesn 't reca ll reading it or reflecting upon it.

Does the Minister intend to prepare next year 's Estimates along the principles embodied in zero-based budgeting? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman , I am not totally aware of , precisely , the answer that the Honourable Member for St. Vital is searching for .

But to answer the question seriously , I do believe that for all of us- for all members of the committee- that certainly whenever a change occurs and, you know , I am the first one to admit and have admitted it in the House , and I do so here in front of this committee , that when there is a fundamental change in how figures of government expenditures are being presented that it does cause legitimate areas of confusion in terms of easy comparison, and that I would be quite prepared indeed to accept the admonition given by the Member for St.

Johns to the Minister of Agriculture this afternoon that next year certainly we will start from zero-based uudgeting and in fact I am inclined to agree with the Honou rable Member for St. Johns that past-voted authority tends to muddy the waters. Indeed , if you want to go this basis, and I'm not speaking as the Minister of Finance and I'm not a finance person , but it certainly would make it a lot easier for every member of this Committee to understand the Estimates if the Minister responsible came in and said, "I'm asking for $200 million .

Here 's how I intend to raise it without delving into past-voted authorities , past capital authorities, past loan funds . past this . . " You know , I tend to agree with the Honourable Member for St. Vital that certainly I think that having embarked on this course it would be my hope that the Minister of Finance will pursue it and that next year the exercise of comparison as to what has taken place in the various appropriations in the departments will be simplified for all members of the Committee on both sides of the House . I may add. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman , I thank the Minister for his answer and I would like to ask him a 1200

Monday, April 24, 1978 different question on a slightly different topic now and tell him that it is a question that I have asked of three other Ministers when they produced their Estimate .

It arises from remarks that the Minister of Finance made when he was introducing, I believe it was the Interim Supply Bill, about certain preliminary Estimates that had been produced by the previous government and that , had they been adopted they would have produced a deficit of an additional $200 million or $300 million or something like that. which caused us- or me anyway- to wonder where this figure came from and to try to find some justification for it. So the question is, Mr.

Chairman , could the Minister inform the Committee what was the total of those prelim inary Estimates when they were first submitted to him by his department? MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker , i n the question of Highways the total preliminary Estimates for the Department of Highways was one of essentially maintaining the status quo, one of hopefully recovering additional costs that some members fail to realize that in Highways the principal component is asphalt which is a petroleum-based product and has suffered the same kind of increases that all of us ha suffered when we fill up our tank with gasoline .

We have tried and attempted to accommodate the rises , inflationary pressures and otherwise that the departments, both Highways and Motor Vehicle Branch, have had to cope with and I would have to say very candidly that in the Department of Highways- and I say it with some pride- they have never, (

a) artifically inflated their requests for next year's Estimates, that in Highways , the actual dollars requested for and the prelim inary Estimates prepared for , not my Ministry but under the guidance of the previous administrations , were along those same lines , were essentially prepared on the basis for maintaining a similar Highways Program with acknowledged cost increases that both the Motor Vehicles Branch and Highways could normally expect to absorb .

So that the direct answer to your question is that there were no highly inflated figures proposed to me in the preliminary Estimates in the Department of Highways . MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , can the Minister tell me then whether those sort of hold-the-line figures plus an inflationary element were based on the 149.5 figure or on the 119.9 figure? MR. ENNS: Based on the 149 figure because those were the actual moneys expended in 1977-78. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , could the Minister be any more precise as to the actual dollar figure? MR.

ENNS: Well , I can be precise to this amount, for instance , in the major operation of Highways which is maintenance- that's what keeps our PR roads in reasonable shape or hopefully will , in the clearing of snow and what have you- the maintenance budget has increased from some $80 million, I believe, to some $85 million . The Construction Program has increased from $68 million to $75 million . This puts together the roughly $11 million to $12 million increase in the Department of Highways . MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman , one more question . lfthen the Estimates forth is year were based on last year's figure of around $150 million , a 10 percent increase would bring it to $165 million. Would this be of the order of magnitude that those first preliminary Estimates came in to the Minister? MR. ENNS: No, I can assure the honourable members that that was not the case. The Department of Highways was used to being hit on the head by the previous administration and they didn't expect an extra $8 million or $9 million from the administration . MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman , I ask the Minister again if he could be any more accurate . We have got a figure now of somewhere between $150 million and $165 million. Can he narrow :it down any closer for me? MR. ENNS: Well , again , in 1978-79, the requested figure was for some $160 million . MR. WALDING: I thank the Honourable Minister. Can he tell me whether he cut that down at all or whether he added to it before he took it to Cabinet? MR. ENNS: No, I added to it to come to this figure.

The original request was for some $149 million plus the costs that the department felt were basic to the maintenance of the status quo of the current level , which probably would have come in at somewhere in the neighbourhood of $153 million or $154 million. What in effect we did was add an additional $7 million or $8 million overall to the New Construction Program . MR. WALDING: Thank you , Mr. Chairman .

Those were the figures that I was trying to get at, that when the Minister first saw the preliminary Estimates then it was at $154 million and that the Minister added a further approximately $6 million to the figure . Would that be correct? MR. ENNS: That would be about correct. You are shaving me by a couple million , but in view of the fact that your party has been tremendously concerned about the excess money Highways is 1201

- Monday, April 24, 1978 spending I'm prepared to drop a couple of million dollars in this debate . MR. WALDING: Thank you , Mr. Cha irman . If the Minister wants to be any more accurate, to take up that $2 million , I will be pleased to hear from him the actual figure. But can I then assume from him that since he added to that figure to bring it to $160 million , that then Cabinet approved the $160 million that he recommended to Cabinet? MR. ENNS: .No, Mr. Chairman , that is not correct. I recommended a higher figure to Cabinet ; I was not successful. MR. WALDING : Mr. Chairman , if I can try once more .

I'm just trying to get two figures from the Mini ster and I have been successful with other ministers . MR. CHAIRMAN : If I might suggest to the member, if he would spell out just what he is after then we all might know because he has got me lost also. I'm not really too sure what he is after . If you would lay the question out maybe the Minister could answer it. We've been 20 minutes trying to get this answ er. Now , if you spell it out maybe he will give it to you . The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING : Thank you , Mr. Chairman, I'll try again.

I wanted to know the figure that was first presente d to the Minister for the total of the first preliminary Estimates for his department. Now, the Mini ster has indicated that it has been in the order of $154 million . I am then trying to find out what the Mini ster did to those Estimates, whether he cut them down or added to them and if so how much, and then what was the figure he took to Cabinet because we know the figure that came out of Cabin et so we can the n see whether Cabinet cut them down or increased them and if so by how much. MR. CHAIRM AN: Why didn't you say that half an hour ago?

The Minister of Highways. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I received the same instructions that all other Ministers received. That was t o attempt to hold the request for expenditures in the department to that of the level of the previou s administration. In other words, to meet the bottom line of the previous year . My Deputy can tell me in a moment or two what that particular figure was .

We indicated to the powers to be that that would mean, in the case of Highways some diminution of service , certainly in terms of maintenance ; it would mean certainly a lessening of the new construction program even from the previous year, simply because of cost increases and I am thankful that I was able to convince my colleagues oth erwi se, that in the matter of highways , that some modest increase was important to the people of Manitoba and that is reflected in this request. The amount totals in the neighbourhood of $8 or $9 million, if you want to combine increases in maintenance and new construction.

The actual figure spent by the Department of Highways both maintenance and new construction was some $149 million last year ; thi s year we are asking for $160 million for an increase of $11 million . They were preliminary figures and as the Minister of Highways, I didn't take those preliminary figu res too seriously, so they don 't register in my mind. I was after more money for highways in Manit oba. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Thank you , Mr.

Chairman , I am very glad to hear the Minister of Highways say that he didn't take those figures too seriously and I gather from other comments that other Ministers didn't take them too seriously either , but apparently the Minister of Finance did and using that as a basis he made the rather unsubstantiated stateme nt in the House that he did and it is only because he did that we are asking these questions to get some background .

The Minister might be aware that one of his colleagues provided us with these figures very openly and very promptly and that two of his colleagues were very bashful about producing these figures , in fact refused point blank to do so. I take it then from what we have been given that the preliminary Estimates were in the region of a 154 and that the Minister increased them and that the Cabinet then chopped them back a little bit. Now , would that be an accurate statement Mr. Minister? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , and I say this kindly to the Honourable Member for St.

Vital, but had he been a member of the Treasury Benches he would have undoubtedly experienced occasions where figures get chopped back to what he had hoped for his department. Every Minister fights for what he believes he is responsible for and has to meld that into what the consensus of the government of the day decides is an appropriate number.

I can only indicate to you that I'm pleased that in Highways we have been able to indicate , subject to the approval of this committee and the Legislature , that we will be able to maintain a reasonable highways program both maintenance and new construction in the provin ce of Manitoba . MR. WALDING : Thank you , Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN : The Member for Roblin . MR. McKENZIE : Mr. Chairman . now that the Honourable Member for St. Vital wants to go into 1202

Monday, April 24, 1978 those kind of administration figures and background I would like to pu·rsue the figures from Roblin constituency from those same days if you would permit me Mr. Minister . We are dealing with administration and if the Honourable Member for St. Vital and the opposition want to pursue those figures I have about a thousand questions that I would like to, with your permission, Mr. Chairman, deal- and I know you have your administration here Mr. Minister- to try and explain to me and the people of Roblin constituency why , first of all provincial trunk highway has never been surfaced.

Now , the former Minister of Highways , you maybe don't know this Mr. Minister. MR. ENNS: That could be. MR. McKENZIE: But the administration knows - paved beautiful up to the border of my constituency then gravel. I am sure the administration are going to give me this, because I want to know why my people were discriminated against. The Member for St. Vital wants that- I want it for my people. Now, may I pursue the debate a little farther , Mr. Chairman . I recall the days that they opened Asessippi Provincial Park- a great day, great day for all the people.

Birds Hill Park, Spruce Woods Park and Birds Hill - great day for the people and great day for everybody , and of course these brochures came out in all these images of this great new government. The Honourable First Minister and the Honourable Highways Minister were supposed to open the park in Asessippi that great day . They never showed unfortunately , thousands of people were there , the First Minister never showed nor did the Highways Minister .

Now , I ask the administration of Highways , why didn't they show on that particular day because - (Interjection)- well , let's get it on the record why they didn't show . The tragedy was there had been no roads to the best of my knowledge built because if the First Minister doesn 't show and the Highways Minister doesn't show , you may rest assured, Honourable Members there is not going to be many dollars spent for roads if you don 't have those two important figures . A MEMBER: So that's what happened at Pembina . MR. McKENZIE: Now , let's go to the other roads in my constituency .

You go from Gilbert Plains north- see Gilbert Plains happens to be in Dauphin constituency , and you drive north from Gilbert Plains and I happen to have the north end of the old Ethelbert Plains constituency . Mr. Chairman and the administration , you drive on pavement until you come to mine and then it's gravel. Now, I would like the former members of the adm inistration and the government to explain to me and my constituency why our people had to you know , drive over those terrible road conditions all those years and the Honourable Member for St.

Vital is looking at even today- I'm looking for the last eight years- I am looking for figures back from 1969 to 1977. Now, Mr. Chairman , may I have those figures from the Minister and the administration of why my people were discriminated in a most terrible way over those years? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I am certainly prepared , perhaps not tonight, but the department will take that request seriously and give you those figures .

But I think it should also be put on record that , after all it is well and publicly documented that the former First Minister of this province regarded the Member for Roblin as being unfitt ing and not deserving of government support and that undoubtedly explains the reason why you drive on gravel and . MR. McKENZIE: On a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN: Member for Roblin on a point of order. MR. McKENZIE: May I read into the record waht he said about me. That is the former Premier.

He said , "McKenzie should be skated into Saskatchewan where he came from ." So, I knew then that this government was not going to look after any road . Now, I hope the administration will give me all the background material . MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital on a point of order . I don 't really think the Member for Roblin had a point of order . but ... MR. WALDING: I would like to know what it is that the Member for Roblin is quoting from when he is reading that. A MEMBER: His own notes. MR. McKENZIE: You can read the speech. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Would the Member for Roblin table his notes . 1203

Monday, April 24, 1978 MR. McKENZIE : It is public information . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I think we should proceed page by page on the departmental Estimates of Highways . MR. CHAIRMAN: I have to recognize the Member for Winnipeg Centre . MR. BOYCE : Mr. Chairman , I was enjoying the Member for Roblin 's usual contribution , but it's refreshing to hear that another Minister has put on the record that he too didn't take seriously the allegations that there were $200 million , $300 million or $400 million , whatever figure you want to use.

But in listening to the Minister's response to some of the questions , the deficit by their own figures in the Budget Debate was that the government was in a deficit position by $225 millions by combining current and capital. Now , they have been forced to reduce that by $50 million, so I take it from his figures that he has given us tonight , that that should be reduced by another $31 million.

The Minister has said that he has used prior authorization , existing authority for $15 million worth , $12 million recoverable from the Federal Government and $2 mill ion which wasn't expended albeit authorized last year , for a total of $31 million . You can't have your cake and eat it too , you can't tar us with the brush of having spent these $31 million when it hasn't actually been expended . The Minister has said that he has no more capital authority .

Well , I don't know how fast you committed the existing authority at the time that there was a change in governmen t, but nevertheles s I would ask the Minister if he could take it as notice and find out for us just exactly how much of this is committed capital. In other words , he says he has no uncommitted capital. He says he has no more money to spend , so I assume from what he has said that the rest of the money is in "committ ed," but that on which construction has not as yet started. And that should be a relatively easy figure to ascertain. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I want to assure the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre that if I can both have my cake and eat it and ask for a cheeseburger on top I don't agree for a moment with his arithmetic. I have expla ined reasonably clearly I hope , where Highways is getting their monup from , what mon eys they spent the previous year, what mon eys we've spent this year . The Department of Finance is totally capable of explaining the method arrived at in terms of establishing the deficit position of this province and will do so when their Estimates are before this committee .

The fact that the Department of Finance has already indicated to the House that there has been a somewhat more favourable position with the provincial deficit , has been tabled in the House , been made availab le to all members opposite. But my position of course is that you are not finding in this departmen t's Estimates any dollar , not one , that can be attr ibuted to add ing or subtracting to the position of the deficit as anno unced by the Minister of Finance . MR. CHAIRMAN: Member for Winnipeg Centre . MR.

BOYCE: The Min ister said that he had used some $15 million and I believe it was 1974-75 , General Purposes , auth ori zed capital - (Interje ction )- I am sorry , of exis ting prior authorization that he . MR. ENNS: I haven 't shown it on the left hand side have I? MR. BOYCE: You see, Mr.

Chairman , this is a new way of accounting and the Minister speaks as if he knows what he is talking about and he can eat hamburgers and cheeseburgers on top of everything else, and perhaps he'd choke on it, but nevertheless the idea of putting into current that which should be capital , you know , it is just very very strange to anybody that knows anything about accounting . When we find different departments doing different things for example as was alluded to already some $2 million which hasn 't been spent yet hasn 't been committed is reported as if we had spent that money .

So, this puts in doub t all of the figures that are presented to us. I know the former Minister of Finan ace in asking the question s relative to the $29 million which the Minister said was comprised of some $15 million and $12 million and then there was an additional $2 million on top of that. So, it appears Mr. Cha irman , that what the Minister is saying is that the $225 million deficit , which is now down to $181 million , should be down to $149 million and I wonder after we get th rough all of the Estimates - we will pro bably find out we are in surplus . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Highways . MR.

ENNS: No response. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Membe r for Seven Oaks . MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman , sinc e we are dealing with combined , firstly , I gather the Minister has clarified that the figu re on the left-hand side is the 1978 year which in print is $119.9 million , that in fact what was expended or committed , authorized was $149 million . Therefore the increase is not nearly as indicate d here . Am I right so far? MR. ENNS: That is correct. 1204

Monday, April 24, 1978 MR. MILLER: Now, the question is, was it expended or was it simply allocated? MR. ENNS: It was spent. It was all spent. MR. MILLER: It was spent. In order words the actual money was spent within the fiscal year 1977- 78? MR. ENNS: Well, I'll defer to my Deputy . It was spent. MR. MILLER: It was spent , paid out , not just allocated, not just a contract? So that for this year what 11 you show on the right-hand side , 160.5, is you have no funds available from any prior Capital Authority? ,. MR. ENNS: That's right , that is correct. MR.

MILLER: Whether through Highways or through General Purposes unallocated? MR. ENNS: In other words , the cupboard is bare. MR. MILLER: So you cannot look to General Purposes Unallocated, free moneys , at all ; this is it. Now , I ask the question. of the moneys shown here, 160.5, it's combined- is the policy going to be that at the end of the year everything unspent will lapse? On the right-hand side? MR. ENNS: It is my understanding that that will be the policy .

But I would have to again defer to the Minister of Finance to some extent , that I would certainly be pleading a very strong case that if a year from now , or subsequent to the close of the construction period this year, I have only spent $68 million or $65 million of the asked for $75 million despite the fact that I have committed additional moneys , that I will certainly be pressing my colleagues for some consideration in the ensuing Budget.

But my understanding is that dollars not spent , in this allocation , indeed lapse , that there is no carry-over from hereon in , that we in fact will come to that zero-based budgeting concept that has been talked about. MR. MILLER: All right, so, Mr. Chairman , what the Minister is saying therefore is -let's take the $75 million as the figure- part of that is Current Consolidated Fund, part of it will have to be financed through Capital , through the borrowing of money. MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman , I hate to interrupt the honourable member, that is all Current. MR.

MILLER: That is all Current and therefore the only Capital anywhere in these Estimates is in Item 8. Is it Item 8 that is Capital , the $60 million for Acquisition / Construction of Physical Assets? Is that the only money that will be raised by Capital? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I am advised that it is all Current. MR. MILLER: In other words , there is no Capital moneyhere at all? MR. ENNS: We have spent the last of the Capital Authority that makes up the $29 million . MR. MILLER: I know that. MR. ENNS: . .. and nowhere in the Estimates are we showing nor do we figure on Capital Authority accruing to us.

We are showing Current figures. MR. MILLER: What you are saying is that the $160.5 million will simply be regular revenues levied , raised through this year 's revenues and there will be no Capital expenditures required to deliver the program wh ich you here indicated, whether it be the City of Winnipeg assistance, whether it be the purchases of buses , the acquisition of buses or what have you - it will all be through Current revenues . Is that what you are saying? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I am advised that it is all based on Current expenditures for the coming year , the $160 million. MR.

MILLER: And therefore to really get a picture of what has occurred over the two-year period, last year $149 million ; this year , $160.5? Is that what you said? MR. ENNS: That is correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. Gentlemen, I wonder if we might try and move along 1205

Monday, April 24, 1978 if you can make your questions to the point. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , I would like to know , in the program that has been tabled in General of the spending, could the Minister indicate what portion of the program is carry-over and what portion of the program's total spending is new in terms of millions of dollars? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, just off the top of my head , I believe it's of the order of $24 million or $25 million but I will substantiate that before . MR. URUSKI: That's of the old? MR. ENNS: That's a carry-over from the old program . MR.

URUSKI: And the new is roughly $50 million? MR. ENNS: That's right. I will be prepared to substantiate that more accurately for the honourable member later on in the evening if I may . MR. URUSKI: Have there been any funds transferred from any other department in terms of -. northern roads or winter road construction? • MR. ENNS: The only addition and it has been here traditionally over the years, has been the Federal contribution in the Highway Strengthening Program .

But there has been no transferring of funds from the Department of Northern Affairs which, as you know , and I might add the Department of Tourism and Recreation which is also to some extent involved in road building- there has been no transferring of funds . These represent the traditional Highway expenditures . MR. URUSKI: Could the Minister indicate what the Federal contribution or Federal funding or to what extent will the province make use of Federal funding in this construction year? And what does it primarily go for? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I can assure the honourable member that we will maximize the use of it but it looks very much as though it will be in the order of some $18 million . MR. URUSKI: Is that included in your Estimates now? MR. ENNS: Yes. MR. URUSKI: Bot h the Federal and Provincial portion? MR. ENNS: That's right. MR. URUSKI: And that is primarily on Highway Strengthening? And bridges? MR. ENNS: By the agreement that we signed with the Federal government , it has to be allocated in those areas . It's to provide for the gross vehicle weights of upwards to 110,000 pounds on most of our major trunk highways.

This includes , you know , strengthening of old pavement. A great deal of it has gone into the replacement of bridges which is the weak link in our program very often and which prevents us from allowing gross vehicle weights to increase to the desirable limits . MR. URUSKI: The figure of $18 million , that comp ares to last year's of $12 million , I presume , that utilized $12 million? MR. ENNS: That's correct. MR. URUSKI: So there is an increase of approximately $6 million in your total program of Federal funds? MR.

ENNS : I would have to defer to my officials but my understanding is that we are approaching the end of a five-year program and we are trying to use up the full allotment that we have negotiated under the federal agreement . By the way, may I say that it is a particularly appropriate, astute agreement that was negotiated by the Highway officials who indexed the cost figure . The Federal Government agreed to a 50-50 sharing on Highway strengthening back in 1973, I believe .

Had we simply accepted dollar figures at that time , with the inordinate increases in the cost of asphalt and inflationary pressures on highway building , that contribution would now be down somewhere to 20 percent. But the officials of the Department of Highways , under the previous administration, negotiated , indexed that figure and we in fact now have realized a much greater figure in total numbers , in total dollars . than was originally envisaged . 1206

.. • Monday, April 24, 1978 MR. URUSKI: I thank the Minister. Could the Minister indicate as to what kind of cost escalations the department has faced in the last year in terms of construction . What percentage increase would be inflation in terms of construction and in your Construction and Maintenance Program? MR. ENNS: To use one kind of stark example, but one I think that is pretty meaningful to most Manitobans and Committee members, everybody wants asphalt or blacktop and as I have already stated asphalt is a petroleum-based product.

For instance, in the years 1973-74, which wasn't that long ago, a mile of asphalt came in at something like $60,000 or $70,000.00. That same mile now comes in at $160,000 and $170,000 and that is a massive increase . In percentage terms, in terms of the breakdown of costs based on 1976-77 experience, we're looking at increases in the labour costs of 35 percent; equipment costs of 32 percent; material costs of 28 percent. These are the kinds of inflationary factors that Highways has had to deal with .

And so I say this without sticking the needle in, the Department of Highways which in the years in the mid-sixties had access to some 16 or 17 percent of total budgets, total government expenditures, slipped down to some 8 or 9 percent last year, plus faced with these inflationary prices- gentlemen, that is why highway building and maintenance of highways has correspondingly gone down.

That's why there has been the need and there has been the recognition by the people of Manitoba who recognized when in the last campaign, Conservative candidates said , "Damn it all, roads are important in the Province of Manitoba ," and responded to that call. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, would the Minister like to indicate, if his Federal contribution or Federal increased cost with Federal cost-sharing was increased by $6 million, and he indicated that there was approximately a 30 percent increase on the average in costs of construction, as to where the funds for the additional Highways Program that he has touted about this province comes from? MR. ENNS: Firstly, Mr. Chairman , I haven 't touted any Highway program around this province. I have been happy to let the members of the opposition and the lone Liberal party do that.

They have been the ones who have talked about 40 percent increases in Highway spending . I have never said that. As a matter of fact, the only time that I stood up in the House and said, is alii got was a modest 7 percent increase in Highway spending . I have never touted a great Highway spending program in this province. I have said that all I have got out of my tight-fisted Premier was the kind of increase that he says every department ought to get. And I say to you and I say to rural Manitoba that I'm not even satisfied with what I got , a 7 percent increase.

If I have to say that in front of university students or hospital administrators I will still say that we need roads to get people to hospitals and we need roads to drive university students to their schools. I have been quite satisfied, I have been quite happy, Mr. Chairman, to sit back and allow the New Democratic Party to put themselves fixedly and firmly on record that they don't believe in spending money on roads . They think it is a terrible thing to spend on roads in Manitoba.

I have been quite happy to have the lone Liberal member say, "It's a terrible thing to spend money for roads and highways." The ironic fact is that one of the reasons for the demise of the Liberal Party is because the last Liberal administration didn't recognize the fact that roads ought to be built. MR. CHERNIACK: They built roads only; they didn't build schools, they didn't build hospitals ... MR. ENNS: No, no, they didn't build roads either . That was left to Mr. Roblin and Mr. Weir. And so in answer to the Member for St.

George, I haven't touted around, I haven't pushed out my chest in pride, you know, for the great Highways program. I'm sure the Member for Ste. Rose would like me to do a lot more in his constituency . I'm sure the City of Winnipeg right now facing the potholes that they have in their streets , would like to see the provincial government give them a $10 million grant so they can get their roads into order. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker , I want to , because I have been asked here, I want to have the Committee know what the Minister is speaking about.

If you look at his quotations in the media in the last several months, he continually indicates in the presentation of his budget that Highways was neglected over the last number of years. It has been a total failure on the actions of the previous government. That has been the continuous attack by the Tory opposition and even the Minister since he has been appointed, that now Highways will get the priority.

When you look at his Estimates of $6 million increased Federal funding and the increased costs of escalating costs, he is not going to provide any kind of a difference in service than was provided over the years. He has perpetrated a sham, not only on the people of Manitoba but on all his colleagues who were hoping to have new construction and new roads in their constituencies . Look at the Budget gentlemen. The Minister of Highways has conned you because he has gone out and said that now Highways will get the priority that it was going to get that was neglected.

The maintenance was being neglected by the previous administration and now we see in the Budget and he was right when he said that there was a modest increase of 7 percent. So, he has perpetrated a sham not only on the citizens of Manitoba who now those who voted Tory have said well, maybe we will get some roads now in our areas, maybe even those in St. George constituency.

But he is going ahead and now indicating that he is really not spending on highways any more than the previous administration did and at least he is open enough now today in this committee by the figures that he has presented to indicate that. 1207

Monday, April 24, 1978 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Highways. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, a little while ago I was accused of trying to have my cake and eat it at the same time.

I am suggesting that the honourable members opposite , particularly the members of the New Democratic Party, whose Leader of the Opposition , just a little while ago , a few weeks ago, stood up in front of a cheering bunch of university students and said , "Look at that terrible Tory government, spending money on highways when they ought to be spending it at the universities ." I will tell you, you can't eat your cake and have it both ways either . You can 't eat your cake and have it both ways either.

I am satisfied , I am thankful- and I'm thankful particularly to the Members of my Caucus , who without their support I would not have received the modest increase in Highways spending. At least it isn't an increase which based on the last seven or eight years amounted to a decrease every year and the people of Manitoba are satisfied with the program we have set together and it's going to be reflected in a reasonably balanced program.

They are going to see more highways activity and the people of Manitoba are going to be thankful forthat.l am just suggesting gentlemen any box that you thought that you were putting the Minister of Highways into was put into by yourselves in your onward rush by not recognizing and- you know, there were capable people here -I am speaking to two former Ministers of Finance around this table . I am not just speaking to backbenchers that didn't have access to how Highways programs are put together .

I am speaking to two former Ministers of Finance on this committee and they knew, they knew the kind of moneys the previous administration spent last year on highways but they could not resist the political temptation to go after some cheap populist votes , cheap populist votes with the university students or to go after my Minister of Health because we are restricting old age pensioners to two meals a day or some damn thing, to go after that area in the Estimates that showed a modest increase . Now , gentlemen you can't have it both ways either.

I made no statements contrary - my statement was that I received a modest increase in Highways , I was happy for it. MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Member for Roblin , then the Member for Seven Oaks . MR. McKENZIE: Now, that we are in Administration, I thank the Honourable Member for St. George who has now left the room and I'd like to ask him why I get a phone call today from the Roblin Trucking Service, plus Roblin Forest Products , that serve other industries in the area that due to the lack of policy or government input for roads , those industries are blocked in today , under the present road restrictions .

I just ask them, they were government and I'm sure under Administration I have to get this from you Mr. Minister and I'm sure you'll give me the answer , why of that neglect the Roblin Forest Products and Roblin Trucking Service had to phone me today and ask for special compensation or special dispensation to let their trucks roll, because of the neglect of this government. Now , the other thing, Mr. Chairman____:. and its under Administration and maybe more difficult May I ask you, Mr.

Chairman, to the Minister , if you could, and it's eight months of that former government and only three of this government , would you check through the records and see where highways came in the priorities of the former government , and would you, Mr. Minister, show us where highways is going to come into the priorities of this new government? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN : Highways Minister . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I think the best way I can respond to that question is simply to repeat what I have already said , that in the 1960s under the previous Conservative administration, Highways commanded the respect of some 16-17 percent of the Provincial Budget. In eight years oft he present administration that dropped to 9 percent , below 9 percent , some 8 percent. I recognize, as the Honourable Member for St. Johns is busy writing his letter that in the interim substantial and major social programs have come into force and come into play and you would expect that to drop somewhat.

But I can tell him at the same point, that we have dropped below the line where we were in fact losing . . You know when provincial roads aren 't maintained to a certa in level, when they are allowed to deteriorate beyond a certain level , then we start to lose ground and these roads need a certain amount of attention . If you let highways deteriorate beyond a certain level then it costs far more money to bring them back up to level.

What we intend to do and certainly if I am given the opportunity as Minister of Highways over the next few years, I will tend to do my very best with the support of the major ity of members in this Legislature to appropriate those funds necessary that will insure that that will take place . MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Member for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman , it is a very stirring speech that the Minister makes and . A MEMBER: You like that? 1208 -...

.. Monday, April 24, 1978 MR. MILLER: Yes, I like it very much because what he is basicall'( saying is this , that under the former adm inistration the highway program in Manitoba suffered . I you look at the printed sheets you see $119.9 million versus $160.5 million , by gosh , it looks like a dramatic increase for this year , but now tonight we heard from the Minister that in fact the column on the lefthand side is somewhat misleading. That in fact , instead of $119.9 what they actually spent in the Highway Department was $149 million .

So if you take the $149 million spent last year as the amount that the Minister now says was actually spent , and he had to use capital authority of one kind and another so he has cleaned up all the authorities granted by the previous government, so therefore, the previous government did make the money available . So, what I am basically getting to , Mr.

Chairman, is that if last year $149 million wasn't being spent on highways , and this year the increase is to $160 million wh ich is what- $11.5 or $12 million or something like that more that doesn 't even keep pace with the inflationary costs which he told us about a few minutes ago , particularly in hardtop ping and asphalt and other costs .

So what you see before you is not what appears to the public and to the media as an increase in Highway expend itures and maintenance but in fact is not even an increase , it is a stand pat Budget because the cost increases will be about equivalent over last year because I think it is an average of about 25 percent. So that if the Minister agrees with me, Mr. Cha irman , he has to either admit that this year 's program is not a particularly high program or that the program he inherited from the former administration was in fact equal to his program by his own figures. MR. CHAIRMAN: Highways Minister . MR.

ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I really think that we've exhausted this subject . The difficulty with the members of the opposition is that they would have liked to have been able to find some $20 or $30 million shown on the lefthand column , unexpended and added to the deficit , but obviously that is not there , so that's causing some consternation with the honourable members opposite . The fact that I have an outrageously extravagant highways program , I thank the honourable members of the opposition for , you know , in terms of perception by the public .

I've always said that I've received a modest increase and tha t is what I am asking this committee to accept. Now , if you find yourselves in a position of difficulty with that , that is your problem. You haven 't found in the lefthand or the righthand column , moneys that Highways has put into that the Department of Finance has used to bump up the deficit figure. You haven't found that either gentlemen . So let's get on with the Estimates of the Department of Highways province. and let me bu ild some roads in the MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Seven Oaks . MR. MILLER: Mr.

Chairman , the Minister may want to carry on , but I think the point that has to be made clear is to refute the statement that the Minister persists is making , namely that the former administration simply did not have a good enough highway program , and that over the years the highway program suffered because under the former administration enough funds were not made available .

The fact is the funds were made available and the mere fact that he was able to spend another $30 million over and above the printed figure , and he didn't get it out of the air , it had to come from authority , which the previous government had voted , and which he inherited , so in fact the program which the former administration had developed and had asked and received authority from the Legislature on was in fact the equivalent of the program which today we see- it isn't any better , it may be equivalent and maybe even less if the rate of inflation isn't sufficient to cover the increase . Now , Mr.

Chairman , there is one point I would like to zero in on , I'm sorry I should have done it earlier . The statement was made when I walked in that Winnipeg drew something like $2.3 million less than had been anticipated in 1977-78. Is that right? MR. ENNS: Not less, more. MR. MILLER: That they drew $2.3 million more in 1977-78? MR. ENNS: That's right . MR. MILLER : Or they drew less? MR. ENNS: More. MR . MILLER: They drew more . And was that amount made available through capital authority which had been voted in previous years or was that through current revenues? MR . ENNS: Capital authority . MR.

MILLER: That was through capital author ity. So that same $2.3 million in not reflected in 1978- 79? Is that right? MR. ENNS: No, what is being reflected now is the amount of drawdown we expect the city to take , $15 million . 1209

Monday , April 24, 1978 MR. MILLER : $1 5 million as against $10 mi llio n last y ear? MR. ENNS: Th at's correct. MR. MILLER : In fact they drew $2.3 million more , that's what you are saying? $12.3 million , is that co rrect? MR. ENNS : That's co rrect. MR. MILLER : Thank you . MR. CHAIRMAN : Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERN lACK : Mr. Chairman , I would like to develop what we have been talking about in spite of the fact that the Minister would like to move on . I don 't blame him for wanting to move on , I just have to tell him that I'm not quite ready to move on because , Mr.

Chairm an, this Minister who rig hteously says he never said he had an enlarged program was present in the Legisl ature, in the City of Win nipeg in the province of Manitoba , while there was a report- not one but several- and I have to say that I unders tand these figures and I happen to have gotten information from Mr. Zip rick about unexpended , unauthorized moneys, capital moneys available from previous years so that I was within, as the Min ister pointed out , some $2 million. So it was no surprise to me once I could under stan d it . But, Mr.

Chairman . lot us recall that there was a Budget night and that Budget night there were big grandiloquent speeches made and I don 't have the Budget Speech before me so I won't quote from it. But th ese Estimates were distributed and at the same time the government spokesvehicle , the Government Information Services made an announcement and said for highway construction there is an increase by a third . And the Minister may not know this because he may not have had much to do • wi th Government Services Informat io n bullet ins.

They , in our time, never published anything unless it was approved by a Minister or a Deputy Minister , which means that somewhere I would think, there is somebody 's initials attached to that announcement about a one-third increase . Now , I believe that the Minister of Highways- his initials don 't appear there. I believe that Mr. Brake's init ials do not appear there , but somebody 's initials must. And there you have the press given that information , talks about the information, now where was the Minister after that? Where was he. Mr. Chairman? Was he away in Hawaii? No. Was he in Nassau? No.

I think he was here and I think he reads the papers . And I think a person as aware as this Minister knew very well the kind of message that was being sent out by the Government of Manitoba to the people of Manitoba relating to highway construction. Wher e was he to speak up and correct that misapprehension? Nowhere . Unt il . MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman . on a point of order. MR. CHAIRMAN : The Minister of Highw ays on a po int of order . MR. ENNS : On a point of order .

On the first occasio n that that was raised formally in the House , I rose in my seat and corrected the record with figures that I have now supplied the Committee . and that was some two weeks ago. But on the first occasion that that was raised in the House , I corrected the record and the Honourable Membe r for St. Johns is aware of that. I want that to be on the record . Mr. Chairman . MR . CHERNIA CK: It is on the record MR. CHAIRMA N: The Memb er for St. Johns . MR. CHERN lACK : Mr. Chairm an. the first occasio n would have been budget night but that was too soon .

He probably didn 't read the pape r .. - (Interjec tion )-- . Well , yes , the day of distribution of the Estimates. of course . not budget night. My goodne ss. on the last day of the Throne Speech the Estimates were distributed and the bulletin was distrib uted . And that is long before two weeks ago and if that to the Minister was the first occasion . MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman . on another point of order . MR. CHAIRMAN : The Minister . on a point of order . MR. ENNS : On that night .

I informed several members of the media of the true facts , but of course a Conservative Minister speaking the true facts . they weren 't pa8ticularly interested in it. But I can tell you and I can name you names . I can name you nam es and there is one sitting in this Chamber right now. 1 said , "Fine . if the Opposition wants to run with this . fine , but that's not correct. These are the tru e figures and in due course when my Estimat es come before the House . it will so be indicated. " Sever al individual members of the med ia were made aware of the fact outsi de in the hallways after the 1210

Monday, April 24, 1978 distribution of the Estimates . When , as to be expec ted , I was asked was I gleeful , was I happy about the inordinate increase in Highways , I made it a point of correcting it. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , I'm not sure that is a point of order but I always like to give the courtesy to the honourable member to speak even when he is out of order because I know that he is going to let me speak , Mr. Chairman . Mr.

Chairman , I think the Honourable Minister ought to reflect very seriously about why it is that he wasn 't believed by the certain members of the press to whom he spoke that night of the distr ibution of Estimates . Or is he saying that they deliberately ignored what he said because they wanted to attack the government and discredit the government and the Minister? MR. ENNS: I certainly am, I certainly am, yes. MR.

CHERN lACK: Well , the problem that the Minister has with the media is his problem which I will not participate in, but clearly he has now stated that they have deliberately distorted what he tried to tell them , ignored it in order to discredit him . Well, I have to say that under those circumstanc es, Mr. Chairman, if the night the Estimates were distr ibuted , and I don 't remember the date but . A MEMBER: The 27th or the 28th . MR. CHERNIACK: About the 27th or 28th of March which is about four weeks ago , he told the press the truth ; they ignored it.

The first opportunity would have been the following day, not two weeks ago. The second opportunity would have been the day after that. And it seems to me that when he got up and he announced that 7 percent figur e. it was probably the 20th opportunity that he had , which he then took as the first. So, Mr.

Chairman , what has happened is that either del iberately and I don't believe it was deliberate- no , I don't believe it was deliberate - I think that these figures were presented in such a way as to give a distorted impression to the people of Manitoba and I don 't say it was deliberate but I do say it was interpreted in such a way and that it was deliberately left that way until statements were beginn ing to be made that this government places roads ahead of people .

And then the Minister , apparently , used his first opportunity to clarif y the 7 percent and did not give the figures but just made the statement and then he did come across when the Member for Seven Oaks and I were figuring out and we had our own information as to accumulated authority from previous years, he showed us, I think , the piece of paper that is in his hands now . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I take back those remarks that I attributed to the media with respect to their bias and prejudice . except to say that th is particular piece of informat ion was prepared specifically for the Premier to read to the univers ity students who were demonstrating in front of th is Legislature not so long ago . He read th is information . Now , that event was well covered by the media , well covered by the medi a. Now why anybody in Manitoba should now have to hear these figures is beyond my comprehensi on. Now I ask you to judge whether or not there was misrepresentation or bias or prejudice by the media .

But thi s sheet of paper was prepared specifically for the Premier to enable him to stand up to the universit y stud ents who were demonstrating at this building to indicate to them that Highways wasn 't in fact receiving inordinate attent ion . This information and these figures were read out by the First Min ister of th is province from the steps of this Legislature and not one person in the news media picked it up . Because they didn 't want to listen to that. The seed had been implanted that the Tories build highways ; we don 't educate children .

Tories, you know, build highways ; we don 't look after old peopl e. Tories build highways ; we put sand in the babies ' diapers in childrens ' hospitals. Tories do all these other terrible things . And that is what was meant to be believed by the media; that was what was reported . But these figures were read out on the steps to 1,000 or 800 or 400, whoever it was , university students some two or three weeks ago and nobody chose to pick them up. Now , you tell me whether I or the First Minister have deliberately tri ed to conceal these figures . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman .

I do e njoy these interruptions but they do take time . MR. ENNS: Well , but it is fact. MR. CHERN lACK: By all means , it's just that the Honourable Minister has no right whatsoever to interrupt me. I don 't mind him doing so but let him not be that righteous about it. Let him at least acknowledge that he is out of order when he does it. MR. ENNS: I'm out of order . MR. CHERN lACK: Having done that . Mr. Cha irman , and having backtracked about his accusation about the press twice because first he withdrew it and then he said , "Now , who is distorting it if not the press? " And , Mr.

Cha irman . who is it that keeps talking about sand other than the Minister of gravel and sand himself? He is the only person who accused the Conservative Government or any of its Ministers of putting sand in diapers and he is now repeating it as if somebody else did . 1211

Monday , April 24, 1978 MR. ENNS : Because I know the accusations come next Tuesda y. Next Tuesday the accusation will come .. . MR. CHAIRMAN : Order please . MR. CHERN lACK : If the Minister keeps on repeating it, people will start believing it and that is the unfortunate thing about the Minister , he is getting into trouble . Because it is difficult for people who don't know him pretty well to sort out the truth and the joke in what he says, and many times the joke is not the truth but that is because he jokes that way .

So let me get back to the fact that the Minister, his government in some way or other misled the people of Manitoba by making them think that there is a tremendous increase in highway construction. Then, Mr.

Chairman . what happened is that they were attacked for distorting their priori ties, except fo r the Member for Roblin who is happy with what he thought was the priority and didn 't understand what we were talking about here , and learning that they were in trouble because of the distortion, they now came out with new figures, probably more correct figures, and now they are complaining that those aren't being accepted . Mr.

Chairman , what has to be acknowledged is that even considering an exaggeration on the part of the Minister of the increased cost of gravel and labour, they are producing now a program for highways less than was on track last year . They are reducing the amount of roads being built and improved . That is obvious. MR . ORCHAR D: Come down to Pembina, Saul. MR . CHERN lACK: The Member for Pembina invites me to go to Pembina. Does he mean that there will be more construction in Pembina? MR. ORCHARD: Than in the last eight years combined . MR. CHERNIACK: You see, Mr.

Chairman , now we know that where the Government of Manitoba today has less money to spend in relative dollars than was spent last year, the constituency of Pembina, and we know the constituency of Roblin , is getting more money . So that's fair game. They are distorting it their way, they are favouring theirs and they are therefore changing the area of Manitoba where there is a greater need , in their opinion , and it was clearly adm itted by our government for the first number of years that the north of Manitoba needed a great deal more than the south and that was announced and debated and discussed .

And the government now ought to have the integrity , ought to have had the integrity because today it's acquiring that integrity through the Minister with our help. But now it is beginning to produce the fact that they are spending less money in relative dollars than was spent last year , but at different locations . Fair game. But with an increase of some 7 percent and with the costs increasing much greater than that , by the Minister's own figures . they are now actually spending less. And I don 't decry that.

I personally still put people ahead of roads and roads are services and roads connect people and they are communication media that are very important. But I do prefer to see less roads and more spent in a humane way and for people who need it. But I want to make it absolutely clear that the government misled us, either deliberately or otherwise . at the conclusion of the Throne Speech.

The government was silent while the impression was planted , or left w1th the people of Mamtoba that there was a big increase in Highways and the M1n1ster had every nght to get up and speak during the Budget Debate and he knows, he has proven today he knows how to speak even when he IS out of order , and he had to wait until two weeks ago to clanfy the s1tuat1on. Now we know there 1s less money to be spent in Highways than last year in relat1ve dollars . That's clear. So the program has been reduced in relative dollars , Mr. Chairman. 1 think that is clear .

And now I want to ask the Minister whether he is prepared to give us, or rather when he is prepared to g1ve us a breakdown of the civi l servants on track year - I mean employees of the department, of all kinds . a year ago and today , what was authorized a year ago and what is authorized today , for us to find out the extent to which the employees , the numbers of employees have been reduced in this department . MR . C HAIRMAN : The Minister of Highways . MR. ENNS : Mr. Chairman.

I think I can indicate even without the information from my officials that there has been no reduction in employees in the Department of Highways. The Department of Highways , as the Member for St. Johns indicates . is a service department that requires X number of people to maintain the roads . The roads are increasing in mileage , not decreasing. They increased in m1leage even unde r the previous administration . In total , I believe that our staff is very much the same th1s year or last year with the possible addition of some numbers .

We have the total figures here and 1 wou ld be pleased to give that information of the department. MR . CHERNIA CK: Well , Mr . Chairman . while we are waiting for those - there is no rush . 1212

Monday, April 24, 1978 MR. ENNS: I'll take the question as notice and provide the member with that information . MR. CHERN lACK: I think there has been the practice in previous years of this information being given and I'm sure the Minister will give it. MR. ENNS: We can provide that information. MR. CHERNIACK: I want to ask the Minister, under this item of Administration which includes his Deputy Minister 's salary , where in this department is there a ... MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I can give the information to the member right now .

In 1977-78 there were some 2,742 staff man years as compared to, requested for in these Estimates, 2,760. So you have an increase of approximately 20, 2,742 to 2,760. You will forgive me if I don't use the decimal points; I have always found it diff icult to find a .37 civil servant or a .8. MR. CHERNIACK: You can find a partial year but not a partial person . Have there been any people dismissed for inadequate performance by this government? MR. ENNS: No. There have been a number of transfers and changes through attrition but there has been no change in the basic complement of the Highway's personnel. MR.

CHERN lACK: Since there is no reduction , are the figures given by the Minister authorized as staff man years? MR. ENNS: Yes. MR. CHERNIACK : How many are filled of those? Roughly, a percentage . MR. ENNS: I'm informed that there are very few empty , that we do not have the practice of a great number of positions allocated for moneywise in the Estimates and not actually filled . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , I will just conclude with this . It seems to me that with a smaller program which I say there is in relative dollars than last year , just how does the Minister explain the increased number of employees? MR.

ENNS: Mr. Chairman , again I let the Member for St. Johns draw his own conclusion. He has now several times put on the record the fact that weare talking about a smaller program . I indicated to him earlier some inordinate increases that we experienced during the years 1974, 1976, 1977, principally when we had double digit inflat ion in this country and inordinate increases in petroleum products of which asphalt is a major component.

The truth of the matter is that this construction year we are finding even in the preliminary contracts coming in that because of the perhaps slowness in the construction industry generally that our initial contracts are coming in below tender and that in fact I don 't accept the member 's premise that we are talking about a reduced or smaller program . ! am satisfied to let the people to judge that at the end of the program as to whether or not it has been a reduced or small program .

I suspect that the additional $11 million will in fact be felt and experienced as an increased level of highway work , both maintenance and new construction in the province of Manitoba . MR. CHERN lACK: Does that mean , Mr. Chairman , that the Budget took into account the reduction in cost of construction per unit because of the fact that there is a depression within the construction industry? MR. ENNS: Well , Mr. Chairman , the Honourable Member for St. Johns is again trying to put words in my mouth or put words onto the record that I don 't accept. There is not a depression .

There is a desire and a chasing after the same contracts by more contractors. We are very happy that as a result of the change in government more contractors are coming back to Manitoba from Saskatchewan, from Alberta, that flew in that direction in the last few years , and consequently, in the true free market system are bidding in a more compet8tive way and i where you might have had two or three contractors bid a job a few years ago , you 've got five or six , and the competition is steep.

The competition is as it ought to be and the Department of Highways and the people of Manitoba are the recipients of any gains as a result of that competition . . MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Chairman , I can 't help but comment that this Minister has two portfolios, that in the other portfolio he has, with the government's instructions , cut so much of the construction program plan that , if he doesn 't know it I don 't know who should know it, there are complaints coming from all people in the contracting industry that they have no work .

And therefore he is trying to play the game of saying , well , all those people that ran away from Manitoba are now coming back,

whereas the fact is the people who are in Manitoba are losing jobs , architects, draughtsman, the contractors generally are feeling the pin ch. because of the provincial government's withdrawal from 1213

Monday, April 24, 1978 public works. MR. ENNS: I can 't help but saying that we are talking about apples and oranges . The fact of the matter is that we've got 30 percent or 25 percent of vacant commercial prime office space just down the avenue and all throughout the City of Winnipeg that as Minister of Public Works I don 't see it in my role in adding to that surplus of vacant and commercial office space , so that in that area of construction it is quite correct that there are complaints coming in, and that I'm not assisting a somewhat dormant under-utilized you know , construction capacity .

I hope , and I see signs of it, with the space finally being used up and with announcements being made by private interests , whether it is Eaton 's Square , whether it is Trizec Corporation , whether it is others that are finally going to start to put in the 50, 100, $150 mi llion worth of construction , that the heavy construct ion industry , the building construction industry in this city is looking for.

But I say it is pound foolish for me to rush out and build another 16-storey off ice tower such as the Woodsworth Building simply to build an off ice tower when I can rent it next door from Monarch Life or anywhere else for the same price . MR. CHAIRMAN: May I remind the members that we are discussing the highways Estimates not Public Works . MR. CHERN lACK: You are right , I am not suggesting that the Min ister run out in his other cap acity to build buildings , what I am saying is that there is a depression in the building industry in Manitoba , that's all. MR. ENNS: That's true . I accept that . MR.

CHAIRMAN : I realize gentlem en that we are going to have a discussion and a debate on the Estimates either under Administrat ion or the Minister 's salary , but I would caution you to try and be brief and let's try and move something along here as quickly as we can . I will recognize the Member for Ste. Rose , then the Member for Seven Oaks . MR.

ADAM : Thank you very much , I guess it's my turn to have a kick at the cat, but the Minister can talk as much as he likes but he will not convince me that it wasn 't a deliberate attempt by whatever means to leave the impression in the rural areas that there was a mass ive increase and you know , his silence was very conspicuous . Now , whether the press did not want to give out the information , I think that the information could have been forthcoming .

I submit and as far as roads are concerned in the rural areas I will be the first one to agree that it is very , very important as far as rural people are concerned and you did not hear me complain too severely , in fact I didn 't comp lain at all although I was very disappointed when I go back home and see old ladies walking half ben t over and saying you know , I lost my card to get a set of glasses or get my teeth fixed , then I start to wonder you know where our priorities. But getting back t8 you know , o. the Min ister 's not going to get away with this because he gave us the answer himself.

He gave us th e answer himself whe n he said that they had deliberately prepared a sheet for the Premier to present to the students on the steps of the Legislature and that is an admission in itself that there was a great deal of back lash that had been coming about for about three weeks prior to that and somebody should have made a statement , the Premier should have made a statement on his weekly report over the radio whenever he goes , he could have made that statement , it was never made , in fact , many member s of the Conservative Party were all smiles and bragging about the big program - th is was the kind of government that we needed and all these roads that were going to be built .

Now . I haven 't had too much of an opport unity to look at the sheet here but what I have seen is that we are completing the road work that is going to be done in my constuency that was allocated in last year 's appropriation .

Most of the work that is go ing to be done is already programmed for last year, so actually except for a second lift on 261 , which I think the Department had to go ahead with because you couldn 't just leave it that way becaus e it was too flat. it' s too flat and it is going to disappear if we leave it that way . but outside of that I don 't see anyth ing ther e that this govern ment has committed in the Ste . Rose constituency . All that is go ing to happen there is already programmed from previous years . I am thankful for that.

I am thankfu l for th at because I really thought that those signs would be coming down . and I am happy that I went up around the const ituency over the week-end and the signs are still there so I apprec iate that at least we are going to complete that work that we undertook .

I would hope the Minister will not try and lead us to believe that this was- off-hand it's difficult to believe that a bulletin , a press bulletin that is let out by the news service does not come over the Minister's desk or the Deputy Min ister's desk for his- you know , you get a rough draft copy and then you authorize it. that 's the way the practice was in the past , it wou ld be a great departure I think from past practice if that was not done today . I don 't think that the Minister would take that chance of allowing the news service to issue statements of that nature . I would like to ask.

I have one more qu estion to ask but I hope we're not going back to the past practice that my predecessor had to deal with . the now Senator Molgat , when he was unable to get any road construction anywhere . In 1968 he got $425,000 and in 1969 he got $760,000 and that was the first time that anything was really happening there for 10 years. So, you know when we hear members from Pembina and around complaining . I am sure that the then member had a difficult time . in fact I think he was kneel ing down before Mr. Borowski to try and get som e road construction in his 1214 =

Monday, April 24, 1978 area . And the following year , 1970, he was still there, he got $870,000 or thereabouts, $860,000.00. MR. ENNS: How much you got this year? MR. ADAM: How much did I get? MR. ENNS: How much do you have? MR. ADAM: I don't know , but I went down I think.

I went down , but I think we got some road work started anyway , and we are very appreciative of that and we hope that those programs that had been recommended by the department , by the region , by the district will continue because some of those roads are important in that they lead to Grand Rapids , they are not primarily only of use to my constituency, they 're main arteries that are going to the north and I think that is what we want to see. But I would like to ask one question , how much of the 160 million dollar Budget , how much has been already committed, can I get that answer? MR.

ENNS: Sorry, I was interrupted in the last . MR. ADAM: Well . we have $160 million MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the Minist er for Ste. Rose repeat his question. MR. ADAM: I would like to know what we have allocated on pre-tendering? Do you have a figure? MR. ENNS: $18 million was pre-tendered. That was prior to even the first. MR. ADAM: $18 million plus the 25 of last year's allocation? MR. ENNS: I can only indicate that out of the $75 million of new construction , $18 million is already out in the pre-tendering program and the balance is being in the process of tendering at this time. MR.

ADAM: And we have 25 left over from last year? MR. ENNS: 23-24 carryover . MR. ADAM: Okay , go ahead . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Seven Oaks . MR. MILLER: The Minister indicated earlier that there is an increase of 18 in staff this year , anticipated this year over last year . Last year about the same time there was a requirement for every department , or a request from every department to have a 10 percent vacancy rate . I don't know if the Minister would have this information , but the staff would , could he tell us whether in fact , what was the vacancy rate in let's say, February , March or April of 1977?

Well, the figure 2,742, was that actually the number of people that were in positions or was that staff man years? If it is staff man years, what was the vacancy rate last year? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , the Department of Highways employs a goodly number of term and seasonal people . but it has been indicateto me that in the area of the permanent employees, I'll try to be correct in the statement , we came very close to that 10 percent vacancy rate . MR. MILLER: In the permanent employees? MR.

ENNS: In the permanent employees category recognizing that we do hire the maintenance crews every spring and so the figure fluctuates considerably in the Department of Highways . MR. MILLER: All right. Now does the same vacancy rate amongst the permanent staff apply today as it did a year ago? MR. ENNS: Roughly about the same applies. There has been some slight gain , but it has been indicated to me that that same vacancy rate applies . MR.

MILLER: I wonder if the Minister could undertake to give to this Committee , and he doe sn't have to do it now if he hasn 't got it, the number of staff man years- permanent, term, contract- a year ago , and the vacancies a year ago , that is unfilled positions in all three categorie s, and the same figures for this year . MR. ENNS: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I will undertake to have that information to the Committee in a very few moments . 1215

Monday, April 24, 1978 MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I am informed the other Committee has risen and there are I know other members of the caucus who have questions on the Highways program, so I would move that Committee rise and that we deal with this tomorrow . MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee rise? (Agreed) SUPPLY-MINES AND RESOURCES MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Abe Kovnats: I will direct the honourable members to Page 58, Mines. Resources and Environmental Management. Resolution No. 82(d)

(1) Salaries- $213,700-passhe Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Well , as I was saying when the supper hour began at 5:30, or the adjournment hour rather, the people in the community of Shilo , CFB Shilo where there are nearly 4,000 persons at peak periods of the year are under the distinct impression that a Conservative government would cause their problem of the location of the hog ranch , the Vercaigne Industries Limited, to be resolved very quickly.

As I stated , it's reported in the Shilo Stag of February 9th , 1978- and I'm reading from the brief that was presented by Colonel Simonds- a very clear understanding on their part and I quote : "The Conservative candidate for Brandon East in the recent election in his campaign took particular note of our situation and stated that a Conservative government would act speedily to resolve the matter ." I repeat , Mr. Chairman , the people in that community , the Co

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-2-27b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 2nd hansardpdf 27b.pdf
Language	en
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