First Session, 43rd Parliament

Official Report

of Debates

( Hansard )

Tuesday, April 8, 2025

Morning Sitting

Issue No. 36

The Honourable Raj Chouhan , Speaker

ISSN 1499-2175

The HTML transcript is provided for informational purposes only.

The PDF transcript remains the official digital version.

Contents

Routine Business

Introductions by Members

Introduction and First Reading of Bills

Bill 9 — Health Care Costs Recovery Amendment Act, 2025

Hon. Josie Osborne

Members’ Statements

Quesnel River Bridge Song

Sheldon Clare

Libraries and Library Workers

Rohini Arora

Outhouse Races in Cariboo-Chilcotin

Lorne Doerkson

Support for Port Industry

George Anderson

Contributions and Work of Farmers

Heather Maahs

KidSport North Shore

Susie Chant

Speaker’s Statement

Guidelines for Members on Private Members’ Time

Oral Questions

Budget Deficit and Government Financial Management

John Rustad

Hon. Brenda Bailey

Á’a:líya Warbus

Fuel Costs and Role of B.C. Utilities Commission

Jeremy Valeriote

Hon. Adrian Dix

Budget Provisions for Food Security and Farmers

Ian Paton

Hon. Lana Popham

Budget Provisions for Tourism

Gavin Dew

Hon. Spencer Chandra Herbert

Budget Provisions for FIFA World Cup

Mandeep Dhaliwal

Hon. Spencer Chandra Herbert

Budget Provisions for Infrastructure Projects

Misty Van Popta

Hon. Mike Farnworth

Budget Provisions for Emergency Response and Recovery

Macklin McCall

Hon. Kelly Greene

Budget Provisions for Energy and Climate Solutions

Hon Chan

Hon. Adrian Dix

Starlink Satellite Internet Service Contract

Rosalyn Bird

Hon. George Chow

Budget Provisions for Education and Child Care

Lynne Block

Hon. Lisa Beare

Budget Provisions for Post-Secondary and Future Skills Programs

Korky Neufeld

Hon. Anne Kang

Budget Provisions for Mental Health and Addictions Services

Claire Rattée

Hon. Josie Osborne

Budget Projections and Priorities

Peter Milobar

Hon. Brenda Bailey

Tabling Documents

Office of the Human Rights Commissioner, report, “We’re Still Here,” Report Of the Inquiry Into Detentions Under the Adult Guardianship

Act , April 2025

Question of Privilege (continued)

Hon. Brenda Bailey

Petitions

Hon. Josie Osborne

Orders of the Day

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Health (continued)

Claire Rattée

Hon. Josie Osborne

Brennan Day

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Post-Secondary Education and Future Skills (continued)

Korky Neufeld

Hon. Anne Kang

Lawrence Mok

Tuesday, April 8, 2025

The House met at 10:03 a.m.

[The Speaker in the chair.]

Routine Business

Prayers and reflections: Kiel Giddens.

Introductions by Members

Nina Krieger : It’s with great excitement and pride that I introduce students representing the Reynolds

Reybots robotic team from Victoria’s Reynolds Secondary in my riding.

[10:05 a.m.]

Welcome to Oliver Herman, Sarah Mass, Riley Vos, Brianna Davis, Joel Rider, Calvin

Spindlow, Taya Anderson, Nicholas Bernhardt, Tyler Stocks and Tyler Stigney.

These exceptional students are headed to the FIRST Robotics World Championship in

Houston next week.

Please join me in a warm welcome and in wishing them the very best for their upcoming

competition.

Kiel Giddens : I’d like to welcome Chris Atchison and the B.C. Construction Association, as well

as construction associations from across the province.

These companies do amazing work to build our province, and I know all members will

have a chance to speak with them at their event this evening.

Will the House please make them all very welcome today.

Hon. Jennifer Whiteside : We are so fortunate to be joined in the gallery this morning by members from MoveUP.

MoveUP represents 13,000 union members across both the public and private sectors

in British Columbia. Their members do fundamentally important work to support British

Columbians.

Please join me in welcoming Annette Toth, president; Rysa Kronebusch, vice-president;

Christy Slusarenko, vice-president; Dimitri Ossinsky, vice-president; Norman Gludovatz;

Brenda Chu; Anderson Charles; Brian Martens; Lana Topic; Leilah Thiel; Kim Mcinroy;

Gurinder Dhandwal; Daniel Fung; Sharan Pawa; Noah Berson; Javed Saheb; Natalie Hoedel;

Safar Alikhani.

They will be talking about the important issues and work that their members do, over

the next couple of days.

Would the House please join me in making them feel very welcome.

David Williams : With us today is one of my constituency assistants, Ross Breitkreuz, along with his

father, Ernie.

I would like to welcome them all the way here from Sicamous, and I hope they enjoy

the day at the Leg.

Hon. Christine Boyle : Today joining us in the gallery from Doig River First Nation are Chief Trevor Makadahay,

Councillors Justin Davis and Star Acko, and Shona Nelson.

I had the pleasure of meeting with Chief Makadahay last week, and I look forward to

speaking with the team more, later today, to discuss the important work they’re doing

for their community.

I will also note that Doig River First Nation chief and council are also joined in

the House today by someone very familiar to this place, former MLA Dan Davies.

I ask the House to join me in making them feel welcome.

Hon. Garry Begg : I am pleased today to welcome Maurine Karagianis, a longtime member of this House

for many years back.

Today I hope the House will make them truly welcome.

Hon. Brittny Anderson : It is with great delight today that I welcome Ryland Stokes here in the Legislature.

Ryland is from the Kootenays, from the East Shore. He graduated from L.V. Rogers last

year, and now he’s studying political science at the University of Victoria and really

enjoying his studies. He’ll get to watch question period today, and then we’re going

to go on a tour of the Legislature.

If everyone in this House could please make Ryland feel very, very welcome.

Hon. Lana Popham : I just love it when constituents take time out of their busy lives to come and visit

us at the Legislature. Today we are welcoming Roger Boutilier from Saanich South.

Roger is visiting today with the Brentwood Bay Probus Club and getting a tour of the

Legislature. I’ve never met Roger before, but I’ll track him down after this.

Thank you for visiting.

Stephanie Higginson : While they’re not in the House today, my family is celebrating two special birthdays

today. As we all know, this job takes us away from the ability to do that, so I’m

hoping that the members can help me wish a very happy birthday to two people who are

special to me.

One is my stepdad, Len Manuel, who has been the coach extraordinaire of my children

through all of their sporting careers, as well as one of the best campaign volunteers.

I didn’t know he had it in him, but boy, did he show up.

Happy 74th to my stepdad, Len.

[10:10 a.m.]

My son’s bestie, Basil Wells, is just about the best 14-year-old kid you could possibly

hope would be involved in your kid’s life.

Basil, I am so happy that you are in my life, and I am so happy for your youthful

and wise influence.

Happy 14th birthday to Basil Wells.

Could the House help me make them feel special on their birthdays.

Jeremy Valeriote : I’m happy to welcome West Vancouver constituents Jennifer and Frank Azizi.

Jennifer has been a tireless advocate for companion animals, SPCA oversight and a

review of the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. They are here to see a petition

delivered on this issue.

Welcome, Jennifer and Frank.

Amna Shah : Today we have a very special guest in the gallery, our super administrator, super

coordinator and the Deputy Speaker’s assistant as well. We have Teresa Scambler.

Will the House join me in making her feel very welcome.

Hon. Josie Osborne : To complement the introduction that the Leader of the Third Party just provided,

I want to welcome constituents from my home of Mid Island–Pacific Rim, Gary Gibson

and Kathy Gibson from Port Alberni, who are joining Jennifer and Frank Azizi to witness

my presentation of a petition that they have worked long and hard on with respect

to the reform of dog laws.

I really appreciate their advocacy, their hard work and their voices, and I look forward

to presenting the petition.

Welcome to the Gibsons.

Introduction and

First Reading of Bills

Bill 9 — Health Care Costs

Recovery Amendment Act, 2025

Hon. Josie Osborne presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant Governor: a

bill intituled Health Care Costs Recovery Amendment Act, 2025.

Hon. Josie Osborne : I move that the Health Care Costs Recovery Amendment Act, 2025, be introduced and

read for a first time.

I am pleased to introduce this bill to amend the Health Care Costs Recovery Act. The

Health Care Costs Recovery Act, first brought into force in 2009, supports a sustainable

health care system by allowing the province to recover the costs of health care services

provided to Medical Service Plan beneficiaries who have been injured or who have died

due to the negligence of a wrongdoer.

This ensures that the burden of paying for these costs falls on the wrongdoer and

not taxpayers. These amendments will address gaps that are currently preventing the

province from recovering health care costs to the fullest extent possible.

The amendments will narrow the circumstances in which the act does not apply because

the beneficiary was injured in the course of their work, lengthen the window of time

during which a claim can be amended to include a health services claim, expand disclosure

obligations for defendants and their insurers, define who counts as an insurer under

the act, clarify the effect of liability waivers, require that the province be notified

when a third-party defendant is added to the legal proceedings and automatically include

a health care cost claim against the third-party defendant when that happens, extend

limitation periods to ensure the province has time to begin legal proceedings after

being informed of a claim and allow prejudgment interest to be collected from defendants.

The Speaker : The question is the first reading of the bill.

Motion approved.

Hon. Josie Osborne : I move that Bill 9 be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting of the House after today.

Motion approved.

Members’ Statements

Quesnel River Bridge Song

Sheldon Clare : I rise today to present a ditty that’s becoming, well, somewhat popular in the central

Interior along Highway 97. If you’ll indulge me, sir.

[10:15 a.m.]

“Quesnel River Bridge is falling down, falling down, falling down,

Quesnel River Bridge is falling down, Mr. Premier.

Broken concrete, holes and girders, holes and girders, holes and girders,

Broken concrete, holes and girders, Mr. Premier.

Quesnel River Bridge is past its time, past its time, past its time.

Quesnel River Bridge is past its time, Mr. Premier.

Let us build the interconnector, interconnector, interconnector.

Let us build the interconnector, Mr. Premier.

Paint over rust carries no weight, carries no weight, carries no weight.

Paint over rust carries no weight, Mr. Premier.

Too narrow, too old and too much traffic, too much traffic, too much traffic.

Too narrow, too old and too much traffic, Mr. Premier.

See the concrete hit the water, hit the water, hit the water.

See the concrete hit the water, Mr. Premier.

See the rebar hit the rails, hit the rails, hit the rails.

See the rebar hit the rails, Mr. Premier.

People and province need the interconnector, need the interconnector, need the interconnector.

People and province need the interconnector, Mr. Premier.

You could call it the Farny bridge, the Farny bridge, the Farny bridge.

You could call it the Farny bridge or name it for Mr. Premier.

Taylor Bridge is just as bad, just as bad, just as bad.

Taylor Bridge is just as bad, Mr. Premier.

The Quesnel River Bridge is falling down, falling down, falling down.

The Quesnel River Bridge is falling down, thank you Mr. Speaker.”

Libraries and Library Workers

Rohini Arora : Well then.

Interjections.

Rohini Arora : No. No singing today.

Through the American Library Association, this week marks National Library Week, a

time to recognize the vital role libraries and workers play in the fabric of our communities.

Here in B.C., libraries like the Cameron Library in Burnaby East are more than just

quiet buildings filled with books. They are living, breathing public institutions

rooted in the values of equity, access and community care.

In this age of rampant misinformation and digital overwhelm, especially in the south,

libraries stand as trusted beacons, helping people sort fact from fiction, navigate

complex systems and find the truth in a time when that’s not always easy to do. They

kids and playtime, students tackling school projects and community members seeking

help with job searches, housing forms and even financial literacy. Libraries are one

of the few places left where you are not expected to spend money in order to belong.

None of this would be possible without the library workers who make it happen. Librarians,

many of whom are CUPE members, and library workers, who are represented by the BCGEU,

are the ones who ensure these spaces remain welcoming, inclusive and accessible. They

are educators, tech guides, storytime leaders and often the first point of contact

for people needing guidance and facing isolation.

As we celebrate these workers this week, we must also fight alongside them for fair

wages, job security and the respect their profession deserves, because strong libraries

need strong, supported workers.

To every library worker: your work is not just appreciated; it is essential to a more

informed, equitable and connected society.

Outhouse Races in

Cariboo-Chilcotin

Lorne Doerkson : To continue with another serious topic, members in this House are well aware of the

primary use of an outhouse. But have you ever thought of them as a form of transportation

or perhaps a racing vehicle?

Well, in Cariboo-Chilcotin, we do exactly that. The outhouse races have been a late-winter

tradition in the Interlakes area for many years. Sponsored and organized by the Fishing

Hwy 24 Tourist Association this year, 14 teams competed for first place. Of course,

it’s quite an honour to have the fastest team or the most beautiful outhouse in Cariboo-Chilcotin.

On February 19, we found the grounds of the Iron Horse Pub in Lone Butte filled with

hundreds of spectators and competitors. Residents were treated to amazing food by

the Iron Horse. Also, the Peter Skene Ogden grad class of 2025 was serving up some

amazing food as a fundraiser as well.

[10:20 a.m.]

The racing outhouses, decorated from top to bottom by the competitors, along with

costumes ranging from princesses and Purex rolls to a very large T. Rex, were a pleasure.

Judging the prettiest outhouse — not an easy task. The winner? The Interlakes fire

department with their entry, Fire in the Hole. A close second was the team from emergency

services in 100 Mile House. The fastest in the women’s category, the Wettstone Ranch;

second, Fire in the Hole. Men’s fastest was the RONA Young-uns; men’s second was T-Bowl.

The real winners? The residents of Cariboo-Chilcotin.

Congratulations to all the racers and the volunteers who made this a great day of

competition and laughs.

Anyone can enter this prestigious contest. It strikes me that this is an event that

this Legislature could truly get behind, and I would encourage a team of presiding

officers, Clerks, maybe even the Tourism Minister, to join us in the Cariboo.

I guarantee you won’t have more fun than at the outhouse races in the South Cariboo

and Cariboo-Chilcotin.

Support for Port Industry

George Anderson : British Columbia has a choice. We can lead, or we can be left behind. A port strategy

is key to our economic future because our ports don’t just connect us to the world;

they connect B.C. businesses to new markets and create good jobs here at home. Canada’s

ports generate over $53 billion in economic output. In B.C., the industrial marine

sector contributes nearly $7 billion annually to our economy.

Last week, on behalf of the Minister of Transportation and Transit and as Parliamentary

Secretary for Transit, I attended a groundbreaking for the Duke Point expansion at

the Port of Nanaimo with DP World and Snuneymuxw First Nations.

Through our ports, forestry products from our mills supply builders in South Korea,

seafood from our waters fills tables in Japan, and clean energy technology from B.C.

powers projects in Europe. Yet sometimes it appears easier to ship across the Pacific

than across Canada. That’s why considering a short-sea shipping strategy or using

ports like Nanaimo, looking at feasibility studies to address future B.C. port capacity

needs and working with the federal government, in partnership with Indigenous communities

to recognize their rightful place at the economic table, is essential.

A port strategy would allow us to ease congestion in Metro Vancouver and create the

necessary redundancies for our supply chains, as we learned after the extreme weather

events at the Coquihalla. Imagine a future where a company in Prince George can ship

across Canada as easily as overseas, where young British Columbians are trained for

high-paying, skilled jobs in port logistics and shipping. This is what our government

is already doing, growing the economy to secure B.C.’s future on the economic stage

and world stage.

Quebec already has a port strategy that diversifies their markets.

If B.C. is the gateway to the world, let’s act like it by working with our ports and

our rail and doing what we can to ensure that we open markets across Canada and internationally.

If B.C. gets this right, we won’t just win the next decade, but we will win the next

century.

Contributions and Work of Farmers

Heather Maahs : We are so blessed in the Fraser Valley to be a farming community. Farmers are the

salt of the earth. They carry the burden of the community, the province, the country

and the world on their shoulders. They work hard. They work the land, cultivating,

planting, fertilizing, watering, harvesting.

Farmers are at the mercy of the weather. Nature answers to no man. The crops need

to be tended. Machinery needs to be repaired. It’s a never-ending cycle. There’s no

such thing as a day off. When we had the terrible flood a few years ago, farmers,

friends, neighbours were out in boats trying to rescue livestock, taking whatever

they could to higher ground. Sadly, much was lost in spite of their best efforts,

including many of their homes.

We owe much to farmers, not just for what they provide us but also for their commitment,

hard work and sacrifices. Farmers know and teach their families what hard work looks

like, because it is, quite simply, just what they do every day. The heartbreak when

a predator takes down their precious livestock or an infestation ruins a crop, but

then comes the joy of spring, with the cycle of rebirth beginning again.

[10:25 a.m.]

In the words of the prolific Paul Harvey:

“God said, ‘I need somebody who will plow deep and straight and not cut corners; somebody

to seed, weed, feed, breed and rake and disk and plow and plant, and tie the fleece,

and strain the milk, and replenish the self-feeder, and finish a hard week’s work

with a five-mile drive to church; somebody who would bale a family together with the

soft, strong bonds of sharing, who would laugh and then sigh, and then reply, with

smiling eyes, when his son says that he wants to spend his life doing what Dad does.’

So God made a farmer, and we are grateful he did.”

KidSport North Shore

Susie Chant : As always, I would like to begin by acknowledging that I work and live on the traditional

and unceded territories of the xʷməθkʷəy̓əm, Sḵwx̱wú7mesh and səlilwətaɬ peoples.

When I’m working and living in Victoria, I acknowledge the lək̓ʷəŋən peoples, specifically the Songhees and the Esquimalt, who have lived here and stewarded

these lands and waters since time immemorial.

Today I would like to recognize a fantastic local non-profit organization that provides

funding to families facing financial challenges so that their kids can also participate

in sports. KidSport North Shore provides the money to cover registration fees and

related costs so that all kids, ages five through 18, living on the North Shore, can

play in a season of their sport.

They provide grants of up to $600 per child per year, funding which supports full

participation, including uniforms. KidSport North Shore also covers registration fees

for disabled sports, such as Adaptive Snow Sports, which is skiing; Blind Sports;

Deaf Sports; Wheelchair Sports; SportAbility; and Special Olympics. They have supported

and sponsored four disabled youth athletes and provided over $2,000 in grants.

Since 2020, KidSport has quadrupled the number of kids they support, and has grown

their financial support by a whopping 1,000 percent. This herculean effort is down

to the enthusiastic and energetic volunteers that I had the chance to meet this past

Saturday.

I attended the KidSport annual new and used equipment sale. I’m happy to report it

was a massive success and will undoubtedly help many, many kids and their families.

An entire high school gym was filled with tables, in turn filled with gear for all

the sports you could think of, for kids to be part of. Everything was laid out so

it could be seen, tried on and purchased for a reasonable cost.

Thank you to KidSport North Shore, provincial and municipal governments, as well as

the great corporate sponsors who share their belief that the power of sport transforms

lives.

Speaker’s Statement

Guidelines for Members

on Private Members’ Time

The Speaker : Hon. Members, before we continue with this morning’s proceedings, the Chair would

like to provide guidance to members with respect to their responsibilities in ensuring

that appropriate timelines are met to enable second reading debate of private members’

bills during private members’ time on a Monday morning. The Chair is aware that the

practices for Monday mornings, as of the current parliament, are still new, and this

guidance is intended to better serve the House and all members as we navigate this

new reality.

As members are aware, a private member’s bill requires two days’ notice before it

can be introduced and read a first time. After introduction and first reading, sufficient

time must also be provided to work with the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel to

finalize the bill before it is authorized to be printed and distributed and therefore

noted as printed on the order paper.

The length of time required is dependent on the bill’s readiness at introduction and

often on whether the member has received appropriate advice on the propriety of the

bill during the drafting process. Generally, bills that are introduced in good form

are printed within two or three business days of introduction.

[10:30 a.m.]

The Chair will also note that should a situation arise where a member is first on

the list of precedence for private members’ business and they do not have an eligible

item of business on the order paper, such as a bill showing as “not printed,” the

member would be removed from the list of precedence for the remainder of the parliament

or until such time as the list may be re-established. The House would then proceed

to the next member on the list of precedence to advance their item of business, as

provided in Standing Order 27(4).

The Chair has seen bills introduced only one or two sitting days in advance after

anticipated second reading debate, putting their eligibility to proceed at risk.

With these requirements in mind, it is incumbent upon members to ensure that sufficient

time has been provided to finalize and print their bill before they anticipate moving

second reading during private members’ time.

Members are also reminded that they may have more than one item of business on the

order paper, whether it be a private member’s bill or a notice of motion. Although

private members’ motions also require two days’ notice, they would be eligible to

be called for debate as soon as they are listed on the order paper, providing another

option for private members to bring their business forward.

Additional guidance is provided in the Private Members’ Time booklet that has been provided to all members, and procedural support and advice

is available from the Chair, the Table Officers and the Office of the Clerk.

I trust all private members will be mindful of these reminders as they prepare for

private members’ time.

Oral Questions

Budget Deficit and

Government Financial Management

John Rustad : The Premier has been in power since 2022. Over that period of time, which was less

than three years, we’ve gone from a $6 billion surplus to a $14 billion deficit. It’s

a $20 billion shift with nothing to show for it except for four credit downgrades.

Two of those downgrades came in a single day just last week. It’s unprecedented. The

downgrade from Moody’s highlights a very serious issue about transparency and accountability

with this government’s fudge-it budget.

To the Premier, please explain to this House exactly how this government will make

up the $3 billion of lost revenue in their fudge-it budget.

Hon. Brenda Bailey : Thank you to the member opposite for the question.

This budget is focused on three primary things. First, protecting core services for

British Columbians. It’s also deeply focused on ensuring that every dollar that we

are entrusted with from British Columbians is well spent. That’s why we’re doing an

efficiency review. That work is ongoing, and we’ll report out on it on Q1. It’s also

focused on revenue growth. These things must happen in concert.

We are going to move things to a balanced budget. It’s going to happen over time,

over multiple budgets.

The Speaker : Member, supplemental.

John Rustad : Well, it’s interesting. We are in the process of budget estimates, and all of our

members in the opposition are working very hard to make sure that we are prepared,

asking questions about how that money is being spent.

The question really is: when you’ve got that big a hole in the budget, when you’re

off by that much, how on earth can we be efficiently able to do our job when we have

no idea whether there are going to be cuts or whether there are going to be changes?

A $3 billion deficit — this is nothing trivial in terms of what’s happening in British

Columbia.

This government knew in advance that they were going to get rid of the carbon tax.

They campaigned on it. It should not have been a surprise.

Can the Finance Minister confirm that nobody in her ministry actually thought out

a plan as to how to deal with this, or, quite frankly, was this just pure incompetence

or an intentional fudge-it budget?

Hon. Brenda Bailey : Our budget was tabled in accordance with legislative requirements and prepared with

the information available and government decisions at the time. A budget is a moment

in time, and it is not appropriate to include speculative things in a budget. We had

to wait until the action had been taken by the federal government.

[10:35 a.m.]

We made it very clear. The Premier was very clear on this. He said when and if the

federal government removes the backstops on the carbon tax, B.C. will do the same

thing.

The budget was tabled on March 4. At that time, the federal government still had the

carbon tax in place. On March 14, that change was made. The first day that we were

back in this chamber, we moved forward with the change, in accordance to the commitment

we made to British Columbians.

Á’a :líya Warbus : On Thursday, April 3, a question was raised by opposition regarding Moody’s projection

that the province’s deficit would balloon to $14.3 billion. The minister’s response:

“The member opposite can make up numbers all he wants.”

The numbers were not made up. Moody’s stated that their projected deficit of $14.3

billion was due to: “Our projections include the adverse revenue impacts of the province’s

recent decision and legislative change to eliminate the consumer carbon tax.”

I’d like to offer the minister an opportunity to retract her statement that the opposition

was making up numbers about her fudge-it budget.

Will the minister retract her statement and acknowledge that Moody’s projected this

government to accumulate a $14.3 billion deficit?

Hon. Brenda Bailey : There are many things that go into a decision by these credit-rating agencies, including

very important factors like the threat of tariffs and now the implementation of tariffs

that we’re experiencing.

Interjections.

The Speaker : Shhh, Members.

Hon. Brenda Bailey : This is a time of extreme economic uncertainty. We do expect that many, many provinces….

Interjections.

The Speaker : Members. Members.

Members, let the minister continue.

Hon. Brenda Bailey : We do expect that many provinces, unfortunately, will experience credit-rating downturn.

I will highlight a number of other things that these credit agencies have said about

us, because there are many things going in our favour.

First of all, Moody’s notes that B.C.’s credit profile is supported by a resilient

and diverse economy, with lower reliance on the U.S. than other provinces. S&P also

highlights that federal immigration policies and heightened trade uncertainty will

create challenges for economic growth.

There are many factors that go into these decisions. But what’s important for British

Columbians to know is that British Columbia has what the world wants, and we will

continue to diversify our economy, to bring down trade barriers and to ensure economic

growth to support what’s important to British Columbians.

The Speaker : Member, supplemental.

Á’a :líya Warbus : Accountability matters, transparency matters, and this government has already been

called the most secretive government in Canada, quoted by the B.C. Freedom of Information

and Privacy Association.

This opposition works very hard to dig into numbers, hold the government to account.

But when we can’t get accurate information, it’s downright irresponsible.

Again, will the minister do the right thing, pause the Committee of Supply or, at

the very least, admit in the House and to the people of British Columbia that the

new deficit that we’re facing down is, in fact, $14.3 billion?

Hon. Brenda Bailey : What I would say to the member opposite is that I very much do respect the work of

the opposition. Absolutely.

It is absolutely normal procedure that a budget will be brought in and that it is

a reflection of a moment in time. The normal way of things is that any changes will

be reflected at Q1, and changes that come next will be reflected at Q2. This is the

normal way of things.

We’re doing tremendous work right now on the question of our deficit.

Interjections.

The Speaker : Members. Members.

Members, wait for your turn.

[10:40 a.m.]

Hon. Brenda Bailey : We are doing important work right now on the question of deficit, and I am determined

to get us back on the road to balance. That work is going on now. We’ll have more

to show at Q1, which is the normal way of things.

Fuel Costs and Role

of B.C. Utilities Commission

Jeremy Valeriote : The carbon tax is no more, and gas prices have actually dropped across B.C. But despite

the Premier’s warning to the industry, whether these prices will last is far from

certain. How much oil and gas companies stand to profit from this abrupt change is

yet to be seen.

The 2019 Fuel Price Transparency Act requires companies to submit data, but it also

needs to carry consequences when consumers are being gouged. In the Sea to Sky for

years, residents have been paying the same or a higher price for fuel, despite a 12-cent-per-litre

differential from the TransLink levy that they don’t have to pay. So the FPTA has

not benefited my constituents, despite the BCUC’s data confirming that Sea to Sky

drivers have been overcharged for years.

If kitchen table affordability is really this government’s focus, my question for

the minister is: when will you give the BCUC some teeth so it can take a bite out

of blatant profiteering by oil and gas companies?

Hon. Adrian Dix : This Legislature did pass the Fuel Price Transparency Act in 2019, and that act has

had a very significant effect — that transparency and, frankly, the work of a lot

of people, including independent organizations — in ensuring that differentials between

fuel price in British Columbia and other provinces are not there. In fact, the extent

of that differential has been reduced by 62 percent, which shows the value in this case of the legislation that we passed unanimously

in this Legislature.

There will be a continuing task, particularly in this time when affordability is important

for people. We have to ensure that the full value of the carbon tax cut goes to consumers.

There will be, of course, important activity done by the BCUC in support of that.

The member might well argue — and he, presumably, is arguing — for full regulation

of prices in B.C., but our act is based on transparency. It’s working very effectively.

I think it’s acknowledged to be working effectively, and we have to continue to support

the BCUC in its work.

The Speaker : Member, supplemental.

Jeremy Valeriote : So while carbon taxes became a scapegoat during the inflation crisis, oil companies

were actually the biggest driver of rising costs.

A recent report for the Centre for Future Work shows how oil companies pocketed $151

billion during the fossil fuel spike of 2022, costing Canadian households an average

of $12,000 each. The report warns that without action, B.C. remains vulnerable to

future price spikes. The best protection against oil price spikes is to transition

away from fossil fuels, and the Green caucus will continue to push in this direction.

In the meantime, to the Minister of Energy, what will the province do to protect British

Columbians and tax windfall profits appropriately to help cover some of these budget

deficits?

Hon. Adrian Dix : A couple of things.

First of all, I would note that the impact of the Fuel Price Transparency Act — the

fact that transparency led to a reduction in prices should not be a moment of great

pride for the industry. I’d say that.

With respect to what we need to do, what we need to do is to build more clean energy.

I think the member would agree with that. That is exactly what we’re doing: clean

energy the size of Site C in projects supported by the government, all of them amongst

our 18 priority projects; wind and solar projects that are lower-priced and will serve

British Columbia for a generation and displace, when we do that, often energy resources

that have to come from elsewhere.

They’re good for the economy for that reason. They’re good for communities. They’re

good for regions, particularly in the interior of the province. And we’ve got to continue

to do it. Our response to this must be to lean in to building more electricity so

consumers and everyone else can have more options.

Budget Provisions for

Food Security and Farmers

Ian Paton : I recently spent four hours in Agriculture and Food estimates reviewing programs

meant to support food security and farmers across this province.

Is the minister cutting these vital programs, or are billions being added in debt

to their fudge-it budget?

[10:45 a.m.]

Hon. Lana Popham : I appreciate the question from the member, and we did enjoy four hours together.

Maybe it was five. It was so fun I lost track of time. We always have a great debate,

and the one thing I know about the member is that he loves agriculture as much as

I do.

I think everybody in British Columbia, everybody in Canada, understands the importance

of food security, food resiliency and the food economy, especially now, since we’ve

been under a lot of pressure because of the tariffs. It’s really an important issue

to our farmers here in British Columbia.

We know how important food security is on this side of the House, and I imagine the

other side does as well. That’s why we have increased our ministry budget from $130

million to $143 million.

Budget Provisions for Tourism

Gavin Dew : I’m confused. During estimates for Tourism, Arts, Culture and Sport, we spent four

hours asking the minister questions in good faith about key programs that should be

strengthening our communities and supporting private sector jobs. Now I don’t know

if we were debating real numbers or a fudge-it budget.

Which is it? Would the minister please stand up and let us know whether we’re cutting

tourism funding, or is the province increasing the deficit?

Hon. Spencer Chandra Herbert : I’m just so excited about the future for our province because tourism is in every

one of our communities. Tourism provides incredible jobs for over 127,000 British

Columbians.

It’s actually Tourism Week in B.C. I say Tourism Week, tourism month, tourism year,

because we have so much opportunity to support our communities.

I’m glad the member asked questions in estimates. I’m sorry the critic was unable

to join us. I send her my best wishes. But I’ve just got to say the future is bright

for tourism. I’m keen that we’re supporting it. I’m keen we’re investing in it, in

communities all across this province, and I’m looking forward to continuing to support

our tourism industry. I wish the others would get on board.

Budget Provisions

for FIFA World Cup

Mandeep Dhaliwal : In Tourism estimates, I asked about the FIFA World Cup.

Was the minister using real or made-up fudge-it budget numbers during this debate?

Hon. Spencer Chandra Herbert : I’m glad the member asked about the World Cup. It’s coming next year. It’s exciting

for B.C. The opportunity is huge. It’s huge.

I know not everybody on that side maybe supports soccer, but I do know some of the

members were asking me for tickets.

I don’t have any tickets to give you, Members. You’ll have to buy them like the general

public when they become available.

But the World Cup has got an opportunity…

Interjections.

The Speaker : Members.

Hon. Spencer Chandra Herbert : …to grow our economy by over $1 billion.

The members have a lot to say, but they don’t actually say very much. It’s unfortunate.

It is called question period. They asked a question. The member asked a question,

and I’m keen to share why we’re supporting the World Cup.

[The Speaker rose.]

The Speaker : When will members learn not to interrupt others when one person is speaking? Please.

Is the minister done?

[The Speaker resumed their seat.]

Hon. Spencer Chandra Herbert : Thank you. I’d just say the World Cup is coming to B.C. We’re excited about it. It’s

unfortunate the Conservatives aren’t.

Budget Provisions

for Infrastructure Projects

Misty Van Popta : B.C.’s infrastructure is crumbling, and this government just blew a $3 billion hole

in their fudge-it budget.

Will this minister tell us what priority infrastructure projects will get delayed

or cancelled due to their fudge-it budget?

The Speaker : Minister of Transportation.

Hon. Mike Farnworth : Thank you, hon. Speaker.

Interjection.

The Speaker : Member, for god’s sake. This is really getting out of control.

Hon. Mike Farnworth : It’s okay, hon. Speaker. I will remind him of the words, which is: “The B.C. Conservatives

are falling down.”

Because this side of the House — $15 billion worth of infrastructure projects being

built right across this province. From a $5.9 billion Surrey-Langley SkyTrain, from

Highway 1 widening….

Interjection.

[10:50 a.m.]

Hon. Mike Farnworth : Not infrastructure? A member on the other side says building a SkyTrain is not building

infrastructure? That building a Pattullo Bridge is not building infrastructure? That

widening of Highway 1 isn’t building infrastructure? The rebuilding of Hazel Trembath

School in my riding is not infrastructure?

Clearly, they need to stay on that side for a very long time to come.

Budget Provisions for

Emergency Response and Recovery

Macklin McCall : Wildfires, floods and other disasters are significant in B.C., and this NDP government

has failed to deal with the impact. After four hours of questioning, we still don’t

know if their fudge-it budget is accurate.

How much worse will this government’s response be when they cut essential services?

Hon. Kelly Greene : We know that communities across B.C. are finding increasing effects from climate

change. It’s definitely top of mind for our ministry to make sure that communities

are well supported in both the preparation before events happen and then also in recovery.

To date, we spent over $500 million on 2,500 projects to get communities prepared

and ready for events.

We’re going to continue doing this work. It’s vitally important to partner with local

communities and First Nations.

Budget Provisions

for Energy and Climate Solutions

Hon Chan : In 2018, this NDP government removed the requirement for B.C. to be energy self-sufficient.

We are about to go into a nine-hour estimates for the Ministry of Energy.

How can we possibly debate the estimates of this fudge-it budget when we don’t even

have the accurate numbers?

Hon. Adrian Dix : The member will know that with respect to energy self-sufficiency and energy projects,

B.C. Hydro routinely submits all of that information to the B.C. Utilities Commission

for review. I’d suggest he look there.

In addition to that, we do need — I’d agree with everyone — more energy in B.C. I

am surprised that when we are saying we need to build projects — and we’re building

projects — the opposition opposes them. I am surprised.

Interjections.

The Speaker : Shhh. Shhh.

Hon. Adrian Dix : Oh, there they go again.

Interjections.

The Speaker : Members.

Minister will continue.

Hon. Adrian Dix : In British Columbia, we need to build more electricity, more clean electricity, more

renewable electricity. That’s precisely what we’re doing.

B.C. Hydro has a $36 billion capital plan that addresses issues of infrastructure

and building out our province. We are going to aspire to be the clean energy super

power we need. We have to continue to do this.

All of the information relevant to that debate is available to the opposition, as

are briefings from my ministry, which will be provided to the opposition.

I think there are bigger issues in B.C. than how sad the opposition is about estimates.

There are issues about affordability that people are facing. There’s a response to

the Donald Trump tariffs. There are significant issues across British Columbia.

Interjections.

The Speaker : Shhh.

Hon. Adrian Dix : I think if the opposition needs more information….

Interjections.

Hon. Adrian Dix : There they go. They’re just yelling. If the opposition needs more information, they

know that we’ll provide that information.

Starlink Satellite Internet

Service Contract

Rosalyn Bird : Last Thursday I arose in Citizens’ Services estimates to discuss how this government

approaches information management and recordkeeping. It was interesting to confirm

during estimates that this government has signed a contract worth over $5 million

with Elon Musk’s Starlink to provide high-speed broadband services to rural communities.

Is the $5 million contract cancelled, or is it still part of the fudge-it budget?

[10:55 a.m.]

Hon. George Chow : Yes, I can confirm that the contract is still in force. These contracts are for the

safety and well-being of British Columbians. We are not going to cancel things like

remote highway cameras or connectivity at remote highway stations. We’ll continue

to work, doing what we have been doing, trying to connect the province by 2027.

We have invested $584 million in connectivity since coming to form government in 2017,

and we have moved the dial significantly. In 2017, rural homes’ connectivity rate

was only 57 percent. Now it’s 74 percent.

For First Nations communities particularly in 2017, it was 66 percent. Now they’re

83 percent connected. By the completion of this project in 2027, they will be connected

to the rate of 96 percent.

We are very confident that the project is ongoing and that in the future…

The Speaker : Thank you, Minister.

Hon. George Chow : …there will be more options for services which will benefit consumers.

The Speaker : Thank you, Minister.

Hon. George Chow : I answered your question, Member.

Budget Provisions for

Education and Child Care

Lynne Block : My fellow MLA and I spent six hours in Education estimates questioning the Minister

of Education and Child Care about their priorities.

Will this minister have to cut vital education programs to try and balance their fudge-it

budget?

Hon. Lisa Beare : What I can do is confirm that we are spending more money than we ever have before

in education. We, in our government, are doing everything we can to set our kids up

for success.

We are continuing to protect core services like education in light of uncertain times,

including Trump tariffs. We are investing an additional $370 million in education

this year to do some amazing things.

I am going to highlight a couple of them. We have invested $30 million to improve

literacy for all students and an additional $20 million to boost the student and family

affordability fund, which helps pay for student necessities like school supplies.

We are expanding our food program, with almost 90 percent of our schools in B.C. now

offering school food programs. That’s $214 million, because we know a child who is

hungry can’t learn to their best ability.

We are going to continue to invest in our kids. I get the honour of doing that now

from birth to graduation. We are going to keep supporting them.

Budget Provisions for

Post-Secondary and

Future Skills Programs

Korky Neufeld : Well, British Columbia is facing a $14.3 billion projected deficit and growing, so

students, institutions and training programs deserve clarity.

Can the minister confirm whether Post-Secondary and Future Skills funding can expect

cuts?

Hon. Anne Kang : Thank you so much to the member across for that question.

Yesterday, in estimates, I did confirm that there were extra investments in Post-Secondary

Education and Future Skills. In fact, since 2017, our government has increased operating

funding to post-secondary institutions every year and provided over $1 billion in

additional grants between 2017 to 2025.

I want to take this opportunity to really thank our public post-secondary institutions

for working with our industries and with our partners to make sure that we are providing

the best-quality education for the workers of our future.

Budget Provisions for

Mental Health and Addictions Services

Claire Rattée : I spent eight hours questioning the Minister of Health during estimates focusing

on mental health and addictions, a crisis perpetuated by failed NDP policies.

[11:00 a.m.]

Given the government’s projected $14.3 billion fudge-it budget, can the minister confirm

whether her ministry will cut programs, yes or no?

Hon. Josie Osborne : B.C. has a growing population, an aging population. We know, more than ever, that

it is important to ensure that we strengthen B.C.’s public health care system so that

we know that that health care is there for people when and where they need it. As

the members all know, the Health Ministry has a $4.2 billion lift over the next three

years to continue those critical investments.

The opposition is asking about cuts, and I’m going to talk about what we’re not cutting

and what we’re not saying no to. On this side of the House, we’re not saying no to

a new medical school training doctors here. We’re not saying no to a piece of land

for a new Surrey hospital. We are not ripping up contracts for essential health care

workers as part of our health care system.

At this rate, I’d expect that they would ask us to cancel the review of the health

authorities, but we’re moving ahead on those because we know it’s important to minimize

unnecessary administrative spending. We’re going to make sure that dollars are being

maximized on the front line, delivering health care services for British Columbians.

Budget Projections and Priorities

Peter Milobar : “Given the evolving and fluid situation, implementation of U.S. tariffs and Canada’s

response are not incorporated into the Budget 2025 economic outlook.” That’s a direct

quote from page 3 of this Finance Minister’s fudge-it budget.

We’ve had questions now to ten different ministers today. Not one can point to any

specific potential cost savings or not in this year’s fudge-it budget. In fact, the

Minister of Finance refuses to acknowledge whether that means the deficit is going

up or not. It’s actually a pretty straightforward question that the opposition is

trying to get to the bottom of.

The minister can deflect and talk about first-quarter updates all she would like.

That’s not until September 15. That’s when the first-quarter update will actually

come out. I would point out that the carbon tax was actually brought in, and implemented

and the repeal happened before we even dealt with other tax measures in this year’s

budget.

So for the Minister of Finance to try to deflect and say she cannot accurately say

what is going to happen to $3 billion worth of revenue — whether it will be direct service cuts in the immediate

time or whether it gets directly added to our deficit while we’re facing credit downgrades

predicated on that — is completely irresponsible by this minister and by this government.

The Energy Minister talks….

The Speaker : Question, Member.

Peter Milobar : Perhaps he could give advice on how to backdate budget documents to this minister

so we could get some accurate numbers.

The Speaker : Question, Member.

Peter Milobar : When will we have an accurate representation of what is happening to the revenues

and expenses in this province?

Hon. Brenda Bailey : Thank you to the member for the question.

A budget is a moment in time. It is. It’s a moment in time.

Interjections.

The Speaker : Shhh.

Hon. Brenda Bailey : It incorporates the information available at that time. At the time that we were

preparing our budget, there was tremendous uncertainty about which tariffs were coming

in, when and how. We made assumptions based on the information that we had.

Interjections.

The Speaker : Let her finish, Members.

Hon. Brenda Bailey : We did include the disruption to the economy that was already happening — that will

continue to happen.

Interjections.

The Speaker : Members. Let the minister finish.

Hon. Brenda Bailey : It’s not appropriate to include decisions that have not yet been made in our budget

assumptions. The question about the carbon tax…. Yes, it came in on March 14. It could

just as well have happened in December or the following year.

We have to make assumptions to do budgeting, and that’s what we did. They’re defensible.

They’re appropriate. They’re the normal way of things. I look forward to going through

estimates with the member opposite. But there’s nothing unusual to how we introduced

this budget. And of course, the uncertainty that we’re facing right now due to tariffs….

Interjection.

[11:05 a.m.]

The Speaker : Member.

Hon. Brenda Bailey : But I will point out that on this side of the House, we’re taking these economic

threats deeply seriously, and we’re standing up at every opportunity we have to Trump,

as opposed to the other side of the House.

[End of question period.]

Point of Order

Gavin Dew : Mr. Speaker, during debate, I noted that the Minister of State for Trade used unparliamentary

language. Given how little he has risen in this House to actually talk about trade

in the middle of a trade war, I would invite him to stand and withdraw that language.

The Speaker : Is the minister of state willing to respond? If not, the Chair will review the Hansard recordings.

Tabling Documents

The Speaker : Hon. Members, I have the honour to table the Human Rights Commissioner’s report “We’re Still Here,” Report Of the Inquiry Into Detentions Under the Adult Guardianship

Act .

Question of Privilege

(continued)

Hon. Brenda Bailey : The member opposite has raised a question of privilege, which I would like to respond

to this afternoon, before the House rises.

Petitions

Hon. Josie Osborne : I have the honour of presenting a petition to the assembly.

Approximately 3,000 people across British Columbia are requesting to reform B.C. dog

laws, stopping arbitrary seizures, euthanasia and providing access to justice.

The petitioners request that this House review and amend

section 49 of the Community

Charter and related legislation to provide transparency, accountability, oversight,

clarity, humane reforms and fairness to dogs, guardians and the public and to recognize

that a dog’s best interests are worthy of consideration in all aspects.

Orders of the Day

Hon. Mike Farnworth : In this chamber, I call continued estimates debate for the Ministry of Health.

In the Douglas Fir Room,

Section A, I call continued estimates debate for the Ministry

of Post-Secondary Education and Future Skills.

[11:10 a.m.]

The House in Committee,

Section B.

The committee met at 11:12 a.m.

[Mable Elmore in the chair.]

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Health

(continued)

On Vote 32: ministry operations, $34,996,928,000 (continued) .

Claire Rattée : Thank you to the minister for finally providing that breakdown of publicly funded

beds. I appreciate it. I will note that it arrived at the very end of my time, so

it’s going to be difficult to ask the follow-up questions that this information demands.

I’m going to try and be brief by working a fair bit of it into one question, if that’s

okay.

According to the document, there are 2,189 publicly funded beds across the province.

But when I dig into that number, only 806 of those are bed-based treatment beds, which

your own health authority websites describe as structured, live-in treatment programs

providing intensive, evidence-based therapy and support in a substance-free environment.

I would wonder if the minister agrees that this is the most appropriate definition

of treatment in the clinical sense, because I certainly would, and that was the number

that I was looking for.

That means that only 36 percent of what the government counts as treatment beds are

actually providing structured, clinical, evidence-based treatment. The other beds,

752 in total, are what the health authorities define as supportive recovery beds.

These do not offer clinical programming or therapy but are rather low- to moderate-intensity

communal living arrangements offering peer support.

I would also wonder why the ministry is conflating supportive recovery with treatment,

in its reporting. I have to wonder if that isn’t just to make the numbers appear a

little bit higher.

Of those 806 actual treatment beds, the regional disparities are striking. Fraser

Health has 172. Interior Health has 123. Vancouver Coastal has 102. Island Health

has 147. PHSA has 311. But Northern Health, which covers 15 percent of the population,

including 32 communities, 55 of B.C.’s 203 First Nations, or more than a quarter of

them, and a landmass the size of entire countries, has only seven treatment beds.

I would also wonder if the minister genuinely believes this is an equitable distribution

of treatment resources.

[11:15 a.m.]

To put this in a global perspective, Northern Health spans an area that is equivalent

to countries like Ukraine or South Sudan and twice the size of countries such as Italy

or the Philippines, yet it receives just 0.8 percent of the province’s bed-based treatment

capacity.

Given that the overdose death rate in Indigenous communities in the North is six times

the provincial average, I would like to know how the ministry can justify allocating

seven treatment beds to a region with such immense need.

Would the minister also agree with the previous statements I have made in the House

that access to detox services without immediate follow-up access to structured treatment

is for many people a death sentence? We have people cycling through withdrawal, stabilization

and then back into the toxic drug supply because there is no next step.

I would like to know what the ministry is doing to close that fatal gap and better

understand why these numbers are reported the way that they are and why we only actually

have seven treatment beds in Northern Health.

[11:20 a.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : Thank you to the member for the question.

I want to, first off, acknowledge two things that the member raised, two really important

things. One is around equity for access to services for people living in the North,

for people living in rural and remote areas. And the second is around the profoundly

disproportionate impact that the toxic drug crisis is having on Indigenous peoples.

I want to acknowledge that, yes, it is inequitable to see that there are fewer treatment

beds available to people living in the North and that there is work to do to build

more services in the North. It’s very important that people have access to care as

close to home as possible, and being able to do that in a way where barriers like

travel distances and being away from community and friends and family and loved ones

is an important part of that. That’s why we have to continue to invest in the North.

I’m going to talk a little bit more about that in a moment, but I also want to talk

about the importance of supportive recovery beds. The member speaks to the difference

between treatment and supportive recovery and the importance, and I agree, of not

letting people fall through the gaps when moving from detox or withdrawal management,

for example, into a treatment bed and then into supportive recovery.

That supportive recovery provides an important service for people, in a safe living

environment, where access to supports and training like life skills training and psychosocial

programming is important and people who are living in supportive recovery facilities

or dwellings also can still be undergoing treatment. They are still accessing things

like OAT, and that’s an important part of a supportive recovery centre as well.

[11:25 a.m.]

With respect to continued investments, I want to just go back to remarks I made in

response to a question a few days ago or last week around the expansion of Road to

Recovery and the priority that the northwest of British Columbia has in expanding

the Road to Recovery. There are new dollars in this year’s budget to do that. The

Road to Recovery is, again, providing that access into a seamless continuum of care

in enabling people to move from withdrawal management into treatment, into supportive

recovery.

I also want to point to the recently opened Connective therapeutic recovery centre

in Prince George, 25 beds that have just opened so perhaps not captured in the figures

that the member received from last year, and then talk about the importance of Indigenous-led

care as well.

As the member remarked, the disproportionate impact on Indigenous populations, on

Indigenous peoples, means we have to continue the focus on partnership with First

Nations and enabling and truly supporting Indigenous-led solutions — our work with

the First Nations Health Authority, for example, in an Indigenous treatment centre,

which Carrier Sekani Family Services is proposing and will be developing.

It’s currently in the construction phase. The target completion is summer 2026, with

the possibility of being opened a little bit earlier than that, with 36 treatment

and supportive recovery beds and ten withdrawal management beds, for a total of 46

beds, all in one facility. Now, that partnership is the result of the federal government

and the provincial government supporting the First Nations Health Authority to bring

that centre about.

Then lastly, I’ll just point to the work with the Northern First Nations Alliance

in establishing community-based and culturally safe treatment. I know we canvassed

that in a previous question, but this is the type of investment and the type of work

that needs to continue to happen in the North, to continue to bring this seamless

system of treatment and care to people who deserve to have access to that care in

a way that is close to home and that supports the unique lifestyles of people living

in the North.

Claire Rattée : Respectfully, that’s really not going to help the problem that we’re facing up north

right now. Again, we talked about the difference between the bed-based treatment beds

and the supportive recovery beds. I can’t help but notice that in my riding, there

are only these supportive recovery beds, which is not clinical, evidence-based, structured

treatment, which is what people in my riding need. That still doesn’t address that

problem. It doesn’t address the problem that people are falling through the cracks

consistently.

I just got news, about an hour ago, that my cousin-in-law, after leaving treatment,

took his life last night. Where is the follow-through? How is this system working

for people? That shouldn’t have happened. That is a common story.

There needs to be more done on this file. This is not good enough. It’s not cutting

it for people in my riding. It’s not cutting it for people across this province, because

my cousin-in-law was in Surrey. There’s not enough being done.

In the interest of time, I have also identified a number of beds on that list that

are specifically designated for alcohol use disorder only, which is obviously a problem.

But I would like the minister to tell me how many of those 806 bed-based treatment

beds are alcohol-only and how many are accessible to individuals using opioids or

stimulants or to other substance users.

We are in the midst right now of a toxic drug crisis, so I would hope that the minister

agrees that we need to prioritize treatment that reflects the substances driving deaths,

so those numbers could be detracted from that total number. I would welcome the minister

to get back to me on that when she has the time.

My final question. Will the minister commit to reporting bed-based treatment numbers

separately and transparently going forward, rather than lumping them in with supportive

recovery and transitional beds that do not provide treatment in the clinical sense?

British Columbians deserve clarity, especially those trying to get help. When we tell

people that there are 2,189 treatment beds, but only 806 of those are actually offering

therapy and clinical support, it’s misleading the public, in my opinion.

I would like a response to that. Then afterwards, I will be giving the floor back

to my colleague from Courtenay-Comox.

[11:30 a.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : First of all, I want to express my condolences to the member for Skeena. That is

absolutely tragic news to hear about her cousin-in-law.

I think bringing the stories like this, and the impact that has on people, to this

House is a really important part of raising awareness and slowly making it easier

for us to be able to talk about this but also building bridges of understanding so

that we can work together on investing and on treatment for people, on meeting people

where they’re at and doing everything we can together.

The full range of types of treatment, which are not limited to just bed-based treatment

but are available through other ways — through clinical counselling, through opioid

agonist therapies, through the work at supportive recovery centres and all of that….

Ensuring that the public has a good and better understanding, as the member I think

is really driving at, is a really important thing.

I’d like to do two things.

First of all, I want to offer the member for Skeena a full briefing on the mental

health and substance use snapshot — a snapshot that comes out twice a year, I believe

— and have her sit down with staff from my ministry and really seek her feedback on

better ways to report that, to try to better answer some of the questions that she’s

asking and, importantly, like the member points out, to ensure that the public has

the fullest understanding of what is out there and what is happening and available

for people.

The second thing I would like to offer the member is a tour at the Road to Recovery

centre at St. Paul’s hospital in downtown Vancouver and an opportunity to meet with

program staff there and learn more and see firsthand what the Road to Recovery program

is like and how the seamless system of care that’s being developed there is working

for people there.

As I mentioned before, our intention and our commitment, through the budget, is to

expand this program into every single health authority, including up in the northwest

where the member is from.

[11:35 a.m.]

Certainly for myself, visiting Road to Recovery, seeing that, talking to people, talking

to staff there was a really important part of my understanding, and I, respectfully,

would offer the member the same.

I’ll follow up with the member on this and some of the other questions I know that

she is waiting for answers to from estimates. Once again, I just thank her for the

dialogue that we’ve had. I really appreciate this opportunity.

Brennan Day : In the interest of time here, I’ll just lay out what we’re going to be doing for

the next four hours of our afternoon so that we can make sure we don’t waste any of

the ministry’s time. We’re getting through about five to six questions an hour. I

know these are very difficult questions, but I think British Columbians need to get

these on the record.

What I’ll be doing is finishing up on rural health with the TAP program and then getting

into a bit of BCEHS. In the interest of time, I will ask a couple of questions on

each of those subjects and then read the remainder into the record so that we can

follow them up later. I think they’re fairly straightforward questions, but I know

that they might take some time to prepare. It would be fantastic if the minister could

get back to us on those.

I’ll get started, but first I would like to just talk about a response from the ministry

in yesterday’s period regarding the cancellation of U.S. cancer care. I don’t believe

that question should have been taken on notice. That program had been cut during our

conversation, and I assume that means that the ministry is confident that the current

wait times in B.C. and the statistics that she cited…. To close that option to Canadians….

I would just like to get that on the record, and I hope that we do not see any life-altering

delays in the access to that care, going forward.

Moving on to the travel assistance program, or TAP. Given 80 percent of rural residents

report financial difficulty accessing care, why hasn’t the travel assistance program

expanded to include accommodations or upfront payments to reduce the burden on British

Columbians who are already struggling with overwhelming affordability issues?

The Premier promised a $5 million expansion. Where is that in this budget? Has it

been budgeted? Is it under risk of cuts due to the cancellation of the carbon tax?

What parameters determine that amount? How many trips does that $5 million represent

to British Columbians who are struggling to access rural health care?

Rural British Columbians are dying to know, Minister.

[11:40 a.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : Thank you to the member for the question.

I appreciate the interest and support for people living in rural areas of British

Columbia and helping to overcome some of the barriers that people face in accessing

health care. Part of that, of course, is the barriers people face in terms of cost

and time in travelling out for health-authority-related appointments, for cancer care

and for other essential and often life-saving services.

The member speaks specifically around the travel assistance program, a program that

is largely ferries-based. Just in case we have a misunderstanding between each other,

this is not a program that requires reimbursement later. This is a program — of course,

after the appropriate forms are filled by physicians — that enables people to travel

on ferries at no charge, so no money is required up front. That is a barrier for people

having to front-load those costs.

In December we expanded that program to cover…. I’ll call them inland ferries, or

routes that are not publicly B.C. Ferries–run routes but routes that are still valuable

travel between places like, in my own riding, Port Alberni and Bamfield, for example,

supporting people and, again, ensuring that they do not have to pay the cost of that

up front, because that is a barrier for people.

We have made platform commitments that we will be sticking to, over the course of

our mandate as government, around expanding supports for people living in rural communities.

I want to assure the member that that very much remains in place but also that there

is a real plethora of different kinds of programs available for people. The health

authorities each have websites that clearly lay out the different programs that people

can access. I just want to briefly talk to some of them so that people understand

what’s available out there.

[11:45 a.m.]

For example, Health Connections is a health-authority-based regional travel assistance

program. This offers subsidized transportation options to people who have to obtain

non-emergency, physician-referred medical care outside of their home communities.

In Interior Health, there are bus services that link small communities with the tertiary

and regional hospitals in all four health service areas.

Island Health distributes funding to eight different contracted transportation providers,

but a patient calls one number and gets access to one of those transportation providers

to help assist them.

Vancouver Coastal Health, similarly, has established services in places like Bella

Coola Valley, for example.

Northern Health retains a contractor to provide low-cost bus transportation for patients

who need out-of-town medical appointments in northern B.C. and in Vancouver.

The First Nations Health Authority. They also provide a medical transportation benefit,

providing assistance with the cost of meals and accommodation and transportation to

assist with that.

The B.C. family residence program provides accommodation assistance to enable families

living outside Metro Van to stay together when their child requires medical care at

B.C. Children’s Hospital or Sunny Hill Health Centre for Children. This ensures that

local transportation costs, meals, personal expenses…. Although those are the responsibility

of the patient, this program provides accommodation assistance and helps families

stay close by to their children.

The Ministry of Social Development and Poverty Reduction offers medical transportation

supplements. The Ministry of Children and Family Development’s At Home program provides

medical benefits. The Ministry of Citizens’ Services maintains a courtesy listing

of hotels in B.C. that provide discounted accommodation rates for people travelling

away from home who are perhaps not able to access some of these other programs.

Incredibly importantly for people seeking treatment for cancer, the Canadian Cancer

Society runs two programs to help cancer patients with medical travel: Wheels of Hope,

which connects people who need transportation with volunteer drivers, and a travel

treatment fund that provides short-term financial assistance to cover some of those

costs. The Canadian Cancer Society received a $10 million investment from our government

to ensure that they were able to deliver these programs.

Similarly, we invested in Hope Air, a national charity that provides free flights

to people who need to travel for medical care but cannot afford the cost. We have

supported them with direct funding from the provincial government as well.

Then, as we’ve canvassed a few times in the House recently, there’s Angel Flight.

Angel Flight East Kootenay, for example, this year will receive $250,000 to help provide

people with assistance to travel out of a particularly tricky corner of B.C. that,

particularly in the winter, presents risks for people who are travelling.

That’s a scan of some of the different supports. I want to assure the member that

I think we share that we have a continued need to see more investment and drive to

support people who live in rural communities and to enable better access to care,

and that’s just what we’ll do.

Brennan Day : Following up on that question, how many TAP requests were denied or delayed due to

the outdated, paper-based system, and is that even a metric that the ministry tracks?

Why is the TAP system not digitized, and is there funding in this additional $5 million

or in the broader $35 billion budget for this modernization?

I can fax it over to you if you’d like, Minister, but I as of yet have not figured

out how to use that piece of equipment either.

Can the minister explain what’s being done to modernize this program, to get it back

into the 21st century?

[11:50 a.m.]

Hon. Josie Osborne : Thank you to the member for the question.

I think we would all like to abolish the use of fax machines. And to that point, though,

too, everything we can do to reduce the administrative burden on physicians and on

care providers and on people to make things easier is an important part. So I really

appreciate the question.

There were 98,248 travel assistance program approvals that were issued by the ministry

for the fiscal year ’23-24, which actually represents an increase of almost 10 percent

from the year before that.

We do not track the number of forms that are assigned but not used, so I can’t give

a number in terms of what forms are not used. Small steps have been taken towards

modernizing this. It used to be just paper forms available in triplicate, and now

there is the use of digital forms and being able to email them.

I’ll acknowledge that there are always improvements that can be made in the system

in making this easier for everybody, particularly the internal system of tracking

this and ensuring that we, again, are reducing the administrative burden on physicians

so that they can concentrate their time providing care to people. So I appreciate

that question very much.

With that, I move that the committee rise and report progress and ask leave to sit

again.

Motion approved.

The committee rose at 11:53 a.m.

The House resumed at 11:53 a.m.

[The Speaker in the chair.]

Mable Elmore : Committee of Supply,

Section B, reports progress of the estimates of the Ministry

of Health and asks to leave to sit again.

Leave granted.

George Anderson : Committee of Supply,

Section A, reports progress on the estimates of the Ministry

of Post-Secondary Education and Future Skills and asks to leave to sit again.

Leave granted.

Hon. Spencer Chandra Herbert moved adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

The Speaker : This House stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. today.

The House adjourned at 11:54 a.m.

Proceedings in the

Douglas Fir Room

The House in Committee,

Section A.

The committee met at 11:12 a.m.

[George Anderson in the chair.]

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of

Post-Secondary Education

and Future Skills

(continued)

The Chair : Good morning, Members. I call the Committee of Supply,

Section A, to order. We are

meeting today to continue the consideration of the budget estimates of the Ministry

of Post-Secondary Education and Future Skills.

On Vote 41: ministry operations, $3,515,868,000 (continued) .

Korky Neufeld : Thank you to the minister for joining us.

I just want to make sure that we’re clear on the time frame. Do we have one hour and

45 minutes left of debate? Is that where we got? Is that correct?

The Chair : Approximately, yes.

Korky Neufeld : Okay. Thank you.

I just want to circle back to yesterday. We left off talking about the number of seats

for physicians, and what the minister said to me was 328 seats in B.C. presently.

I know SFU is going to add 48, but right now we have 328 seats.

Let me just preface by saying that it takes ten to 14 years of study for a physician

to move through the system, approximately. There are four years for a graduate degree,

four years for medical school. That’s eight years. And then there are two to seven

years of residency, depending on the specialty.

How many of these 328 physician seats that are presently available, not the ones I

was talking about at SFU, will be family doctors, not specialists?

[11:15 a.m.]

Hon. Anne Kang : Half of the residency seats are in family medicine, and we have the largest family

residency program in the country.

Korky Neufeld : What we’re saying, then, is that half of the 328, about 164 seats, will be family

physicians. Now, if we take that calculation and divide it by the one million people

in B.C. who are without a family physician, that means that there are probably 5,000

to 6,000 patients per family doctor. That’s actually 6,097 residents in B.C. per family

doctor that’s going to graduate.

If people cannot have a family doctor, what they do is that they use clinics, if you

are fortunate to have a clinic in your area. In Abbotsford, I have seen people lining

up for the clinic 60, 70, 80 or 100 deep before eight o’clock, before the clinic even

opens, only to find out that that clinic now closes at 11 because it has reached a

maximum of people that it’s allowed to serve in a day.

Most of those clients who come through those doors are methadone users, so taxpayers

can’t even get their prescriptions filled. Now these people have to go to the ER.

That is why our ERs now are overcrowded, because people are using the ER as doctor’s

appointments. See how the trickle-down effect happens in our communities? That is

real life.

Here’s another challenge. Less and less medical doctors are choosing a family practice

for financial reasons. They have to set up their practice. They have to pay for space,

which is very expensive. They have to pay for staffing, which is expensive. They have

to pay for equipment.

[11:20 a.m.]

Then they cannot sell their practice to another physician, for several reasons. There’s

a capital gains tax of 66 percent, which the federal government has now put on any

person who has a second occupancy, a second building or second property that they’re

trying to sell. Now 66 percent of that is being taxed by the federal government.

This is the reason why people are not choosing family practice, because it’s just

too expensive. Most of them have invested so much time and so much money into their

family practice that it’s part of their retirement plan. Now 66 percent of their retirement

plan has been clawed away by the federal government. These are realities on the ground

for medical professionals.

I just want to say that first of all, I want to thank and appreciate all the health

care professionals that I have talked to over the last year, everyone from doctors

to nurses to students. They have communicated with me their concerns about their future.

I have students that have gone internationally to study that are trying to come back

to British Columbia, and this cycle is actually getting bad.

I want to ask: how do we reconcile the fact that more and more British Columbians

are without a family physician and that this government keeps stating there’s an increase

of family physicians being trained?

[11:25 a.m.]

Hon. Anne Kang : Thank you so much to the member opposite for the question and allowing me the chance

to clarify the roles and responsibilities of different ministries.

The Ministry of Post-Secondary Education and Future Skills works very closely with

the Ministry of Health to train doctors and to identify the health needs around our

province to make sure that we meet the needs of our province.

The broader issue that the member has identified is a strategy that the Ministry of

Health has been taking through the health human resources strategy, and it’s part

of the broader solution that we are looking for in the province.

My role in our ministry is around training, and we are training more doctors. In fact,

we are taking action and creating a new medical school with SFU, the first one in

55 years in the western provinces around our country. As well, we have added 40 more

seats to UBC’s existing program.

Korky Neufeld : I don’t want to seem to be angry, but I’m extremely discouraged and frustrated after

navigating the health care system with my mom in the past ten years. She passed away

in 2022. And she had a family physician. I can’t imagine navigating that system without

one.

I think what I want to emphasize to the minister is that the focus could be on family

physicians. British Columbians, at minimum, require a family physician. We need to

make it a priority of your ministry to make sure that we have seats available so that

we can produce the family physicians that are required for British Columbians. It’s

unacceptable that millions of British Columbians are without a family physician, and

we need to break down the barriers that are there so that we can have more family

physicians that are graduating.

I will pause my comments and pass it on to my colleague from Maple Ridge East, who

is the critic for skills and international credentials, and we’ll resume later on.

Lawrence Mok : My first question to the minister is: can the minister explain why funding for the

entire labour market development subvote on page 161 only increased by $268,000, less

than 1 percent, despite the government’s stated priority on upskilling British Columbians

and addressing labour shortages?

[11:30 a.m.]

Hon. Anne Kang : Thank you so much to the member across for the question.

Welcome to estimates.

We are committed to skills training and labour market development. We have additional

money and dollars from the federal government in terms of labour market programming,

and it’s a priority to our government. That’s why we are maintaining programming at

the levels that we’ve had for skills training, and they remain a priority in my ministry.

Lawrence Mok : What specific outcomes can British Columbians expect from this minimal $268,000 increase?

[11:35 a.m.]

Hon. Anne Kang : Labour market development programs focus on meeting the needs of the province’s workforce,

supporting a strong and stable economy by delivering targeted programming for people,

employers, communities and sectors.

We’re very proud of the work that we are doing in this field and in this space. In

fact, we are maintaining the historic funding of the programs in this space. But this

is also historic programming and funding for all fields that we are investing in at

Post-Secondary Education and Future Skills.

In particular, program success rates are as follows. When people exit the program

that they are training in, 74 percent of them do find employment, and 17 percent of

them pursue further training. There’s a total positive outcome of 91 percent. That’s

a very high percentage.

We’re very proud of the work that we do in this space, and we’ll continue to maintain

our investment, our historic investment, in this area.

Lawrence Mok : Thank you, Minister.

With this minimal increase of $268,000, how many workers will be trained, and how

many credentials will be recognized? How would this actually move the needle on labour

force shortages?

[11:40 a.m.]

Hon. Anne Kang : Thank you so much to the member for that question. It provides me an opportunity

to provide the member with a point of clarification.

The member continues to talk about the $268,000, which is specific to one division

of our ministry. In fact, we have a very large ministry, and we’re not limited to

one division of budget. In fact, our ministry has $3.5 billion in investment in post-secondary

and training.

[11:45 a.m.]

Some examples of moving the needle are since 2017, our colleges, institutes and universities

have equipped students with skills needed to help build our workforce in critical

areas, including 49,450 graduates from health programs. That’s 11 percent more graduates

in 2022 and ’23 than in 2017 and ’18.

As well, 55,270 graduates from engineering and applied science programs. That’s 25

percent more graduates in 2022-23 than in 2017-18.

We also have 27,820 graduates from the education program. That includes teachers,

teachers assistants and ECEs, with 6 percent more graduates in education programs

in 2023 than in 2017-18, as well as 84,190 graduates in business and management programs.

That’s 7 percent more graduates in 2020-23 than in 2017-18.

I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

Motion approved.

The committee rose at 11:46 a.m.