May 27, 1996

GOVERNMENT SERVICES ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 9:00 am in the House of

Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Wiseman): My name is Ralph Wiseman and I

am the Chairperson for the Government Services Committee. We are here this

morning to review the Estimates of the Department of Government Services and

Lands. I want to welcome the Minister and his staff here.

I take this opportunity to introduce to you the

Members of the Committee: Mr. Jack Byrne, the Member for Cape St. Francis who is

the Vice-Chair of the Committee; Gerald Smith who is the Member for Port au

Port; Anthony Sparrow who is the Member for Placentia - St. Mary's; and Rick

Woodford who is the Member for Humber Valley.

Now I should tell you that we have established some

ground rules. We will allow the minister fifteen minutes to introduce his staff,

and to make a statement, if he so desires, the Vice-Chair will have fifteen

minutes to respond, and we will then change to a government member for ten

minutes.

I would ask everyone to identify themselves before

they speak for recording purposes. I think we can now get this meeting under

way. I would ask the minister to lead off, if he so desires, if you have a

statement, Mr. Minister.

MR. McLEAN: I do.

CHAIR: You do. Okay. So after you finish with

your statement we will ask the clerk to start calling the heads. The hon.

Minister, if you wish.

MR. McLEAN: Good morning, Mr. Chairman and

committee members.

It is a new department, and I felt it appropriate

to at least give an overview of the responsibilities of the Department prior to

getting into the estimates part. So I have a short presentation here, if you

would permit me to proceed.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am

pleased to be here to present my department's estimates and to answer any

questions that your committee might have. I would like to introduce the members

of my staff who are avail to provide specific details on respective budget

items. To my immediate left is Barbara Wakeham, the Deputy Minister; to my right

is Mr. Winston Morris, the Assistant Deputy Minister of Commercial and Corporate

Affairs; Mike Dwyer to my far left is the Assistant Deputy Minister for

Government Services; and behind me, on my right, I guess, is Mr. Wilson Barfoot,

the Assistant Deputy Minister of Lands. We also have Mr. Felix Croke, the

Manager of Financial Operations. Felix is with the Department of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs, but we have shared administration with that particular

department; so he is responsible for our administration.

Mr. Chairman, as you are aware Government Services

and Lands is a new department established by the current administration which

brought together most of the permitting, licencing, inspection and regulation of

business by government under one department. This process is not completed, and,

in fact, government has asked us to look at other program areas which might

logically fit within the department, as well as particular complimentary

services presently administered by the federal government which should be

delivered under agreement by my department.

The department is comprised of three main branches,

and a total of fifteen divisions. Its delivery of services embodies a number of

regional and subregional offices to ensure the best delivery of the services in

the most efficient manner.

We have a total of 454 permanent positions, and

approximately thirty-six temporary and contractual positions, for a total

staffing complement of 490.

I will just briefly outline the divisions under

each branch and the major responsibilities and funding levels.

The Commercial and Corporate Affairs Branch is

comprised of eight divisions which provide for the licencing and regulation of

all businesses covered under the various acts and legislation. These include

Trade Practices, Licencing and Enforcement, Criminal Code Licencing, Commercial

Relations, Registries of Legal Interest, Securities Administration, Pension

Policy and Real Estate and Landlord-Tenant Relations. There are seventy-five

permanent positions.

The Credit Union Deposit Guarantee Corporation

which regulates the credit union system in the Province also falls under this

branch, but its operations and personnel are funded fully by the fund. There are

five people involved in this program. This branch administers approximately

seventy-five different acts and has a budget of (inaudible). It operates in St.

John's, Gander and Corner Brook and generates revenues of approximately $18

million a year.

The Government Services branch is comprised of four

divisions. These include Motor Vehicle Registration, Support Services, Regional

Government Centres, and the Vital Statistics Registry.

The Motor Vehicle Registration division has 147

staff, including permanent and seasonal, and is located in Mount Pearl, Grand

Falls - Windsor and Corner Brook, with subregional offices throughout the

province. Its major responsibility is the administration of the Highway Traffic

Act, the Motor Carrier Act, the Dangerous Goods Act, the National Safety Code

and its regulations.

The Regional Services Division is responsible for

the delivery of regional services with respect to land use, building permitting

and inspection functions. Regional offices operate in St. John's, Clarenville,

Gander, Corner Brook and Happy Valley - Goose Bay.

The Support Service Division provides the program

planning and technical support to the regional operations. Together they employ

160 permanent and temporary people.

The Vital Statistics Division, with a staff of

fourteen, provides for the registration of births, marriages and deaths, and the

issuance of certificates to the public.

Over all, the Government Services Branch has a

budget of $14,763,500, and generates revenue of approximately $50 million, and

administers approximately twenty-five acts.

The Lands Branch is responsible for the management

of some 62 million acres of Crown land and there are three divisions: Crown Land

Administration, Land Management, and Surveying and Mapping, with a combined

staff of eighty-one. The branch has a budget of $4.2 million and is expected to

generate revenue of approximately $10 million through its fees, rentals, land

sales, the sale of maps, photos and geomatic products. This branch administers

four acts.

Mr. Chairman, that concludes my opening statement.

Either my officials or I would be pleased to answer any questions your members

might have. Thank you.

CHAIR: Before we move along, I want to

apologize. We had thought that Mr. Oldford wouldn't make it so Mr. Woodford had

decided to fill in, but I now want to welcome Mr. Oldford here. Doug Oldford is

the Member for Trinity North, and he is the real member of the committee.

Hopefully the recorder will make the necessary changes. Ed Byrne just arrived,

the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

CHAIR: Well, I was a little bit easier on you

than I was on Anthony, I think. So if the necessary corrections can be made.

I will now ask the clerk to call the head.

MR. J. BYRNE: Do we do questions on that first?

CHAIR: Well, we call the head, then we will go

into questions.

CLERK: Subhead 1.1.01.

CHAIR: Mr. Jack Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: I appreciate the opportunity, Mr.

Minister, to ask you a few questions with respect to your new department.

First of all I would like to make a comment with

respect to the minutes of the last meeting, on May 22. In

section 4 they had:

without amendment, on the motion of Mr. Sparrow as seconded by Mr. Jack Byrne; I

didn't second that. I believe it might have been Mr. French. Just a correction.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. J. BYRNE: Also, Mr. Minister, would I be

able to get a copy of the statement you just made?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, sure.

MR. J. BYRNE: Alright. Now going to the

questions I have on Government Services and Lands, page 39, 1.1.01.

Transportation and Communications, in $88,900. I'm just curious, because I made

a comparison between a couple of other departments. One was Environment and

Labour, which has $40,900 in for their department, and Fisheries and Aquaculture

has in $60,700. Yet Government Services and Lands has $88,900. Why would there

be such a vast difference between those departments?

MR. McLEAN: I will refer that to my deputy to

respond.

MS WAKEHAM: Basically, in consultation with

Treasury Board, we looked at the regional operations and the nature of

additional activities in terms of Labrador; therefore the increase is the result

of our regional operations. Environment and Labour does not have regional

operations nor does Fisheries and Aquaculture. So that is the difference.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

CHAIR: Order, please!

I would ask everybody to identify themselves for

recording purposes.

MS WAKEHAM: I am sorry, Barbara Wakeham, Deputy

Minister.

MR. J. BYRNE: The same section, Purchased

Services, $8,800: What would you be planning to purchase with that $8,800?

MS WAKEHAM: Normally purchasing services for

government business, for entertainment by the minister, for any specific things

that the minister may require over and above normal supplies within the office.

The number that is actually here is a number that was estimated by Treasury

Board itself in terms of the requirements for the Minister's Office.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Under General Administration, Executive Support,

you have in Salaries, $566,500 for this year, and last year it was $302,700

budgeted at $320,900. There is a big difference. I know it is a new department,

but is you are under Executive Support, shouldn't it be roughly the same amount

of money. Why $200,000, (Inaudible) difference?

MS WAKEHAM: The $302,700 that is listed right

there only included four particular staff. There are now eight staff in the

divisions, the deputy, three ADMs and four secretarial support. Also included in

that is a contractual position for public relations because we didn't have a

public relations person on staff.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you are saying it went from

how many ADMs? From four to eight staff.

MS WAKEHAM: When the original figure was

developed, the two ADMs were included in this particular salary here, plus the

secretarial support. This is the information that was provided to me by Treasury

Board. What has happened now is, the $566,500 includes a deputy minister, three

ADMs, four secretarial support, and a contractual position for a public

relations specialist which was not included previously. There is some additional

contractual money in there for an assistant analyst, or for secondment.

MR. J. BYRNE: Could you tell me what the

contract would be for that public relations individual? What is the salary?

MS WAKEHAM: The salary right now is estimated

at approximately $50,000.

MR. J. BYRNE: Fifty thousand. Is it not true

that government has public relations people hired on, generally speaking? Is it

necessary for every department to have public relations people?

MS WAKEHAM: At the moment what we are doing is

we are sharing a public relations person with the Department of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs; but because of the nature of the department, in terms of its

front line activity with the public, we have some difficulty in terms of being

able to respond in a timely fashion. So we had requested, through the Premier's

Office, that we be allowed to have, on a contractual basis, a public relations

specialist.

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that person in place now?

MS WAKEHAM: No, no. We do not have anybody in

place now.

MR. J. BYRNE: Will that person by coming in

from outside or will it be someone hired from within the Civil Service now?

MS WAKEHAM: They will be hired through the

Public Service Commission.

MR. J. BYRNE: Through the Public Service

Commission.

MS WAKEHAM: Through the Public Service

Commission, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: What I am asking is: Would that

individual - I do not know if you already have a person in mind for that

position or not, but will that position be filled from someone within the Civil

Service or will you be bring somebody in from outside?

MS WAKEHAM: I am assuming, and I have not been

involved in the actual selection of the person, I have been dealing with the

Public Service Commission on this - and I am assuming that if there is a person

presently within the Public Service who has the requirements then they will hire

someone from within the Public Service Commission.

MR. J. BYRNE: When will this position be

filled?

MS WAKEHAM: I am hoping as soon as possible.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Transportation and Communications: again $127,600

budgeted, up from $27,300. That is $100,300 more than was actually spent last

year.

MS WAKEHAM: The $100,000 basically is the

splits that were brought in from the other departments. We didn't have any when

this department was created. The only thing they had, basically, was to bring in

the stuff that I had. So this is the result of the postage, the communications

in terms of the actual telephones, and what was spread out in the other

departments when they put it together. This is the money that was generated by

those other departments, Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 40, 2.1.02, Real Estate and Landlord-Tenant

Relations, Transportation and Communications, from $37,300 up to $79,400. Can

you address that?

MS WAKEHAM: The monies that are established

under the Residential Tenancies Boards are related to monies that are needed for

the five appeal boards that are set up. This is transportation costs associated

with the appeal boards. There had been an intent to eliminate the appeal boards

in 1996-1997, and we had reduced our operational costs last year based on - that

$37,000 from $84,400. The $84,400 is more realistic in terms of the actual cost

of operating the five appeal boards. What we had done is we had reduced the

number of meetings we had with the appeal boards in order to be able to meet a

reduction, our targets for 1995-1996. Consequently we have gone back up now

because the appeal boards are in operation again, at $79,400.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to Purchased

Services, $97,200: What was actually purchased for $89,300?

MS WAKEHAM: I would like to ask Winston Morris,

the ADM for Commercial and Corporate Affairs, to answer that.

MR. MORRIS: Purchased Services in this subhead:

The vast majority of that relates to payments to members of the Residential

Tenancies Boards, of which there six in the Province. They are paid on a per

diem basis for the number of hearings that they hold.

MR. J. BYRNE: What is the per diem for those

boards?

MR. MORRIS: The per diem: I'm not sure what the

actual amount per day is that they receive, but it is the same as whatever the

Treasury Board guidelines are for per diems for boards and commissions. I don't

know the daily amount, I'm sorry.

MR. J. BYRNE: Did you say there were six

boards?

MR. MORRIS: Six boards, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: On Property, Furnishings and

Equipment, there was $11,700 spent. What was that actually spent on?

MR. MORRIS: The Property, Furnishings and

Equipment relates to a few areas. We had last year a full-time chairman for the

St. John's Residential Tenancies Board. Prior to that it was operated on a

half-time basis, so when we had a full-time chairman we needed furniture for

that person. Also we moved premises form the Ashley Building to Elizabeth Towers

where the rest of the branch is. Prior to last year there were separate offices

rented out to hold hearings in St. John's in the Ashley Building. We acquired

some space in Elizabeth Towers where the rest of the operation is, after another

government department moved out, and that required some more furniture. There

was also a photocopier that had to be replaced for that area.

MR. J. BYRNE: If you have the position - first

of all, who fills that position?

MR MORRIS: The chairman? Right now it is a

person by the name of Dale Sudom. He just started recently, in the last few

months.

MR. J. BYRNE: If that position was half-time

before and you made it full-time, you must have had furniture that that person

was utilizing. Why couldn't that furniture be moved into the new office?

MR. MORRIS: The previous chairman had other

offices. He was also chairman of the Pippy Park Commission, I believe, and I

think that was his main office, with the Pippy Park Commission. That is where he

operated, to my understanding, out of that building.

MR. J. BYRNE: So Dale Sudom is no longer with

the Department of Fisheries, Food and Agriculture, is he?

MR. MORRIS: That is right. Last year Martin

Howlett was actually the chairman, and he was the first, I think, full-time

chairman. He went back to Fisheries, Food and Agriculture this year and Dale

Sudom moved from Fisheries, Food and Agriculture over to this position.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 41, under Licensing and Enforcement,

Salaries, $124,200 budgeted, up from $111,000 actually spent: Why? With respect

to all of the cuts that are going on, you would think that would be less, not

higher.

MR. MORRIS: What happened in that area - last

year, as you can see, the budget was $123,500. We had one of our licensing

officers seconded. We were in the Department of Justice last year. That person

was seconded to the budgeting division, and that position was left vacant for

about four, five or six months, something like that. Therefore, we did not fill

that position while she was gone. That was the reason it went down from $123,000

to $111,000. This year it is estimated at $124,000, which is slightly more than

the previous year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

Under Criminal Code Licensing, the same page,

Purchased Services, $34,400 last year, $38,400 this year: What services would

they be?

MR. MORRIS: That is mainly related to rental,

the difference there. We were renting space again over in, I believe it was the

Prudential Building on Elizabeth Avenue, and again this was centralized into

Elizabeth Towers. The original budget was $47,000 for 1995-1996, and we had some

savings in rent in the order of $6,500, I believe. Also, some printing costs and

that sort of thing comes out of that as well, and we had some reductions there.

MR. J. BYRNE: You say you moved into Elizabeth

Towers?

MR. MORRIS: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Doesn't government own that

building?

MR. MORRIS: Yes, but we do pay rent to

Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation.

MR. J. BYRNE: Renting from yourself.

Property, Furnishings and Equipment in that same

section, you spent $3,500. What would that have been spent on?

MR. MORRIS: I believe that relates to - and I

am not 100 per cent sure - a photocopier, again, that we had to replace last

year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

On page 42,

section 2.1.06, Registries of Legal

Interest, Salaries, $695,300 budgeted, down from $775,000 spent: That $775,000

was up $24,000 basically, or almost $25,000, from what was budgeted. Can you

just address those two items, the increase spent and the decrease now?

MS WAKEHAM: The salaries of $751,600 included

an additional three positions for $68,000 that were eliminated as a result of

the reduction in the monies that were actually there, the $775,000, the actual

cost of the positions. The three positions that were eliminated as a result of

the reduction for 1996-1997 were a Clerk-Typist II position, a Deputy Registrar

position, and a Clerk-Steno III position. That is why we are down to $695,300.

What you have here is an annualized (inaudible)

happening with respect to those positions.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to those three

positions, Clerk, Secretary and Registrar -

MS WAKEHAM: Deputy Registrar.

MR. J. BYRNE: Deputy Registrar?

MS WAKEHAM: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: What classification would that

Deputy Registrar be? Would that be union or administration?

MS WAKEHAM: Winston, can you answer that?

MR. MORRIS: The Deputy Registrar was, in fact,

a unionized position. In fact, in our Commercial and Corporate Affairs the only

staff, prior to this year, who were not unionized were the directors. We have no

other managers other than directors.

MR. J. BYRNE: Those three positions, were they

with the most recent cuts announced in the Budget?

MR. MORRIS: No, actually the Deputy Registrar

was a retirement last year. That was before the cuts, and we decided not to

replace that position.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

What I am getting at here, because I listened to

the information coming out from government, that in the new cuts they would be

more or less addressing the middle management type of thing and not the front

lines. This obviously was the front lines, I would think.

MR. MORRIS: Yes. As I said, a few years ago

when the previous round of government cuts in commercial and corporate affairs -

and again, this was before I got there. The middle level management of managers

- for example, you have the director level and below that in most departments

there is a level of managers and then you have your union people - the entire

level of management was eliminated. As a result we just have directors with

unionized staff reporting directly to directors and no managers in between. So

the only positions we have left to eliminate are the directors and unionized

staff. In fact, in this level of a go around we are eliminating one director

position when that person retires, and we will not replace that one. In the last

few years there were two other director positions eliminated. So quite a few

management level positions have, in fact, been eliminated over the last few

years in this division.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would like to finish off that

section. With respect to the same section, Purchased Services, $47,600 spent

last year, $53,000 budgeted for last year and now you are looking at $34,100

this year: What services would be purchased there?

MR. MORRIS: Okay, the change there relates to a

couple of things actually, an upward expenditure and a downward. Starting last

year we have to pay for the gazettes that we have printed, and in this

particular area there is quite a bit of printing for registrations of new

corporations. When a new corporation is registered all of this is printed in

The Gazette . So that resulted in us having to spend $15,000 which, prior to

this, was just absorbed by government, but it is money spent to another

government department. So that was an extra expenditure.

Then we had a reduction of $33,600 and this relates

to rent from the Bills of Sale Division. They used to be in Elizabeth Towers and

we paid rent. Although it was paid to Newfoundland and Labrador Housing we still

had to pay it out to another government branch.

MR. J. BYRNE: Could I interrupt for one second?

MR. MORRIS: Sure.

MR. J. BYRNE: You said there was an increase,

but actually there was $53,000 budgeted, it went to $47,600 spent and down to

$34,000. Where is the $15,000 increase you are talking about?

MR. MORRIS: There is an increase in

expenditures for The Gazette but a reduction of $33,000 in rent for a

reduction of $18,000 altogether approximately. That is from 1995-1996 to

1996-1997. So the rent is a reduction and the increase is in Gazettes .

MR. J. BYRNE: Under Information Technology -

now that system in government has been underway for a number of years now - and

I have asked this at other committee meetings. They had budgeted $200,200, spent

$132,700 and it is back up to $200,500. Is this for the purchase of equipment or

putting in place an information technology system or is it for maintenance and

follow up? What is this money being spent on and how much longer are you

expecting to spend this kind of money, in every department almost; large sums of

money?

MR. MORRIS: In this particular area, the

$200,200 budgeted relates to a number of things, including equipment and

maintenance but also a project to improve the system that we have in the

Registry of Deeds and Companies which is totally inadequate and is creating a

lot of problems, actually, for our searchers when searching titles and what not.

There was supposed to be a project last year to get it under way but because of

cutbacks and what not it did not get under way last year. It is put back in this

year, hopefully that it will get under way.

I guess the ongoing costs would be roughly in the

$132,000 to $133,000 range but we do need to spend some extra money to get that

system upgraded. It is creating a lot of difficulties for the business community

by having the current system the way it is.

MR. J. BYRNE: A general question to the

minister, with respect to the Registry of Deeds, the Crown Lands Registry and

what have you, more particularly the Registry of Deeds: Is there any talk or any

money being set aside for going to a title system? Is there any talk of

combining the Registry of Deeds and the Crown Lands Registry, any talk or

consideration?

MS WAKEHAM: The whole question of trying to do

a combination or at least an interface between the Registry of Deeds and

Companies and the Registry of Crown Titles, I would say this has been ongoing

for about ten or twenty years. It is anybody's guess. Unless we bring in an

actual compulsory ownership of registration within the Province there are a lot

of difficulties in trying to combine the two systems.

What we are doing right now, though, is we do have

an interface between the Registry of Crown Titles and the Registry of Deeds and

Companies, so that our checking back and forth, in terms of the documentations

themselves, is a lot better than it was in the past.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

My time is up I believe, isn't it?

CHAIR: Before we move on, I would like to

welcome Mr. Bob French who is the M.H.A. for Conception Bay South and who is a

member of the Estimates Committee. He arrived shortly after we did the

introduction. So for recording purposes we want to make sure that he is listed

here.

Now if you want to move along here, do the

government members have any questions at the moment?

MR. E. BYRNE: I do.

CHAIR: Okay, Ed Byrne.

MR. E. BYRNE: I will be brief this morning, Mr.

Chairman.

CHAIR: Thank you.

MR. E. BYRNE: Just a couple of questions. On

Page 45, dealing with subhead 3.1.04, National Safety Code: It says in the head:

"Appropriations provide for the National Safety Code Program which is a

cooperative effort between the Federal and Provincial Governments and the

commercial trucking industry to improve highway safety." Is it possible that you

could elaborate on the exact nature of that program, what work within that area

the department does and what future work it intends to do. I am not very

familiar with it.

MR. DWYER: The whole issue of the National

Safety Code deals a lot with widths and dimensions of commercial vehicles, the

weigh scales that you see on the roads for overweights and over-widths and

different things like that, the Commercial Inspection Program of where there are

a number of planned inspections on the roads in concert with the RCMP throughout

the year. Basically what it is, is a National Program that gives the individual

truckers the ability to be able to cross over to different provinces knowing

that the same set of standards apply.

MR. E. BYRNE: Okay. Fair enough. Thanks.

On page 46, Support Services, Permitting and

Inspection Services, item 06, Purchased Services: Purchased Services are up from

what was actually spent last year, $470,000, projected this year to $779,000.

Could you just elaborate on the increase. I know it is a new department and

there are a lot of crossovers coming in.

MR. DWYER: That is the accounts centre which is

primarily used for leased accommodations. Last year when we projected we would

be in different facilities, for argument's sake, we had a projection, but we did

not get into a number of the facilities on time, so therefore there was a

reduction in the actual expenditures.

When we did the original estimates for last year -

MR. E. BYRNE: So this was for when you were

moving into the one-stop shopping centres, you are talking about?

MR. DWYER: Yes.

MR. E. BYRNE: Okay.

MR. DWYER: So that figure of $779,400 would

reflect all of our leased costs,

whereas last year it probably reflected 80 per

cent or something like that.

MR. E. BYRNE: How are the centres working?

MR. DWYER: They are working well. We are

getting quite a positive response from the public in the area and I think the

public are encouraging us to add as many other services as possible.

MR. E. BYRNE: If there much left to be done in

terms of the work there?

MR. DWYER: There is always lots to do. Yes,

there are other opportunities there. We have been identifying -

MR. E. BYRNE: Pardon me?

MR. DWYER: There are other opportunities and

services that we are identifying, and over time hopefully we will add a few

more.

MR. E. BYRNE: Okay.

On page 48, subhead 4.1.01, dealing with Crown

Land: Salaries have increased somewhat under the Salary Estimate. Again is that

an administrative sort of function where there may be more people coming in

because of the new department?

MS WAKEHAM: The switch from the $1,542,100 to

the $1,830,000 reflects adjustments that were made by Treasury Board as a result

of - in 1995-1996 what they had done was they had used the variance with respect

to the overall total salary vote for Natural Resources and did the variance off

Crown Lands as one unit. So there was $255,000 overall that was shown against

Crown Lands, against positions, for the overall balancing of the salary vote.

When we moved out of Natural Resources and moved into the new department, what

they did was they adjusted that variance.

MR. E. BYRNE: What you are saying then is that

would account for the -

MS WAKEHAM: That would account for the

$1,542,100 to the $1,830,000, for the revised.

MR. E. BYRNE: What accounts for the $1,830,000

to what you are budgeting this year?

MS WAKEHAM: Now, for the $1,830,000 to the

$2,220,700, the $400,000 there is the contractual positions for the additional

ten bodies who are required to implement the new value market pricing program

that government is putting in this year, or that was announced in the Budget.

This is five people who are required to do the actual -

MR. E. BYRNE: What is the name of the program?

MS WAKEHAM: Market value pricing policy.

MR. E. BYRNE: Okay.

MS WAKEHAM: (Inaudible) the ten positions that

are there. That is for twelve- and eighteen-month periods, basically to deal

with the processing of those applications for grant conversion.

MR. E. BYRNE: That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you.

CHAIR: Mr. Oldford.

MR. OLDFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to ask a question about the increase in

licensing fees. For trust and loan companies it has gone up to $3,500. In the

case of banks, is that for individual banks or is it a fee that is charged to

each branch of a bank?

MR. MORRIS: Those trust and loan company fees

don't relate to the chartered banks at all. Chartered banks are federally

licensed and federally incorporated. This deals with trust companies that

operate here in Newfoundland. Most of them operate in every province. We have

Fortis Trust, which is the only Newfoundland incorporated one. Trust and loan

companies have to be licensed in every single province because that is

provincial jurisdiction,

whereas banks are federal jurisdiction. Every province

licenses the trust and loan companies separately.

MR. OLDFORD: That would be loan companies like

Avco Financial Services and that type of loan company?

MR. MORRIS: No. Loan companies, like the

finance companies, are treated a little separately because they do not take

deposits. These trust and loan companies refer to companies that take deposits

and lend them out. Any company that strictly lends money out and does not take

consumer deposits is under a separate act. In fact, under regulatory reform that

act is being eliminated and we will no longer be licensing companies that

strictly lend out their own money, if you like.

MR. OLDFORD: So the trust and loan companies

would be like Fortis or Canada Trust?

MR. MORRIS: Canada Trust, Royal Trust, Montreal

Trust, all those types of companies, yes.

MR. OLDFORD: There isn't a great number of

those in any case.

MR. MORRIS: No, there isn't a large number.

MR. OLDFORD: The other question I was going to

ask was on the front- line services being provided. When we went around the

Province with the Budget consultations. that was one of the things that people

talked about, was to down size government but yet preserve front-line services

to people. I understand you are going to do some things in the rural areas of

the Province on a regional basis. I'm wondering what your plans are for the next

fiscal year when it comes to your one-stop shopping and your service centres.

MR. McLEAN: Mr. Oldford, the whole concept of

what we are trying to do with the government services is devolve them out into

the regions as much as our budget will allow us to do. By those services I mean

the kinds of services that people complain they don't get presently, in terms of

Vital Statistics and Motor Vehicle Registration in different areas, in

particular, and of course Crown Lands, which you may be interested to know, we

are putting out into Clarenville. Those are the types of services we are

focusing on immediately, if it is permissable to the budgetary process, to get

out into the regions.

Mike may want to expand on that a little bit, as to

exactly where we are with the service centres right now.

MR. DWYER: Right now we have our five regional

offices set up in St. John's, Clarenville, Gander, Corner Brook and Goose Bay,

and there are a few sub-offices which we have still yet to finalize, for

example, down on the Burin Peninsula and down in Carbonear, that area. What we

are doing since the Motor Registration Division became part and parcel of the

same branch, is we have taken the opportunity of combining some of those

services also, for example, recently in Goose Bay and recently in Gander.

There are other options out there where we will be

looking at providing lesser services. I think government has a view; it does not

necessarily have to be the government service centre to provide the services

that the government service centre provides. There are certain places where we

do not have staff but we would like to have another department, on government's

behalf, to provide some of the basic services that we would provide.

So we are taking these on one at a time, evaluating

the different options. We have been approached on several occasions by some

rural communities saying: Why can't we have a smaller version of what you have

in Gander or a smaller version of what you have in Corner Brook? So we are

exploring all those opportunities.

MR. OLDFORD: Thank you.

CHAIR: Okay.

MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, may I have one more

comment on that please?

CHAIR: Sure, go ahead.

MR. McLEAN: The whole concept, I think, of

trying to provide a better government service out in the regions is to tap into

the resources that are already available through other departments, as Mike

said, and there are a lot of those in different parts of the Province that you

may not realize. We have many departments in many different areas of the

Province that maybe - and we will be looking into it - can provide some of the

services that our department is responsible for delivering out there. That is

the objective we are looking at.

CHAIR: Thank you, minister.

We now go to Mr. French, the Member for Conception

Bay South.

MR. FRENCH: Yes, Mr. Chairman, thank you.

I would like to go back to page 39 on the PR person

again. I just wonder if the minister, once this person is hired, could send me

notification as to exactly who the individual is, the salary that we are paying,

and whether they were hired through the Public Service or through some other

means?

MR. McLEAN: I have no problem with that at all.

Once the person is in place, we can certainly do that.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. The other question that

intrigues me a bit is on the Landlord Tenancies Boards. I think somebody said

there are six of those around the Province. I just wonder again, if my office

could receive a list of those boards, exactly what they are paid as honorariums,

who they are and who the chairman is; if my office could be supplied with that

information as well, please. As well, the number of years they have been sitting

as members of these boards?

MR. McLEAN: Yes, I don't see any problem in

having that provided to all the committee members if they want it.

MR. FRENCH: I would like to have it anyway. I

don't know about the rest but I certainly would.

MR. McLEAN: Okay, it will be done.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you.

I think probably, Jack, you are going to cover the

one on the (inaudible). That's it for me, Mr. Chairman.

As well, sir, if I might, I was late coming and I

am going to have to be excused. I have some meetings upstairs that I have to

attend. I just got away for a few minutes and I have to go back to them. So if I

might I would like to be excused?

CHAIR: No problem.

MR. FRENCH: Thank you.

CHAIR: Okay, Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. I will just continue

on the way I was going. On page 43, under Securities Administration, Salaries

went from $136,900, budgeted in 1995-1996, up to $165,200. Why the increase?

Then it is budgeted again even more, at $173,900. I would just like to know why

that would be.

MR. MORRIS: In Securities Administration there

was a new position of administrative officer created. That was the main reason

for the extra increase in 1995-1996. The increases in 1996-1997, which are not

that large, are about $8,000 really, mainly to step increases for the

individuals in place. Most of them are at the lower end of their scale and they

are entitled to a step increase, even though there are no salary increases. They

go up another step on the scale.

MR. J. BYRNE: The new position went through the

Public Services Commission, did it?

MR. MORRIS: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Since I've started these

Committee meetings, I was surprised to find out that - I thought there was a

freeze on salaries throughout government, yet people are getting their step

progressions.

MR. MORRIS: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: So there isn't really a freeze as

you would normally think there would be.

MR. MORRIS: There is no freeze on step

progression. Anyone who starts off and is given a scale, if they start off at

the bottom of a scale, and there are two or three steps - for a union, I think

it is three steps and management has a broader range of steps - those steps have

not been frozen, no; but the annual increases, if you like, have been frozen,

yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. Same page, 2.1.08,

Pensions Policy, item 05, Professional Services. You had budgeted $15,000, you

spent $20,800, and that is down to $1,000 this year. Can you explain that?

MR. MORRIS: Yes. Last year there was a new

pensions act being drafted and there was money spent on Professional Services in

order to get that in place, in the order of $10,000 I understand. Also there

were some actuaries required to be hired to analyze some of the pension plans in

the Province. It isn't anticipated that any actuaries will have to be hired in

the current year. That is why it is just reduced to a minimum of $1,000 this

year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. Page 44, 3.1.01,

Administration. Transportation and Communications: "Appropriations provide for

administrative costs relating to motor vehicle and driver registration." Item

.03, as I said: You spent $358,000 and $361,300 is budgeted for this year. What

would that money be spent on, in particular?

MR. DWYER: That basically covers employee

travel and communication costs of the administration division.

MR. J. BYRNE: The employee travel to do what?

MR. DWYER: There are different types of travel.

For argument's sake, a lot of the travel that is done in this is done in

conjunction with some of the federal boards and different things like that. It

relates to a lot of that type of travel.

MR. J. BYRNE: Travel outside the Province or

within the Province?

MR. DWYER: A certain amount of it, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much, do you know, outside?

MR. DWYER: We will have to get that information

for you. I haven't got it for you right here.

MR. J. BYRNE: Could you do that?

MR. DWYER: Yes, that isn't a problem.

MR. J. BYRNE: Supplies, same section, up from

$49,800 to $125,300.

MR. DWYER: The supplies were an issue. MRD came

over from the Department of Works, Services and Transportation with the

establishment of the new department, and that particular item there, they did

not have their fuel for their vehicles in MRD. It used to come out of general

administration in the Department of Works, Services and Transportation.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, there is $70,000 for fuel?

MR. DWYER: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: For who did you say?

MR. DWYER: For motor vehicle inspectors and

weigh scale operators.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Under Purchased Services,

again up from $162,000 to $273,400, that was down and up again. Why would that

be?

MR. DWYER: Well, it was with the Department of

Works, Services and Transportation last year. I would suggest that there was a

concerted effort not to spend it in that area. What that is spent for are items

such as advertising for seat belt usage, impaired driving, ATVs, and also there

are some areas in there for printing supplies.

MR. J. BYRNE: You say there was probably a

concerted effort to keep the expenditures down in 1995-1996, from $273,000 to

$162,000. With the amount of people being laid off and what have you throughout

the civil service, wouldn't you think there would be the same effort made this

year?

MR. DWYER: Again, I will have to get back to

you with that answer as to why the differential in the $100,000 on the Budget in

the revised.

MR. J. BYRNE: What time frame are we talking

about in getting this information, the committee on the whole, any information

that we don't have that we would be receiving?

MR. DWYER: Some time next week.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. The same page, Driver

Examination And Vehicle Inspection, Supplies, $48,000 spent, up to $71,500: I am

having problems with these figures because of just the general lay-offs. It

seems to me there could be savings elsewhere, not in personnel necessarily.

MR. DWYER: Supplies in this area covers things

like examination forms for testing and different things like that. Sometimes

there is stock on hand which drives some of the costs down and sometimes there

is an under stocking. So from time to time those particular types of account

centres actually fluctuate.

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 45, Licence and Registration

Processing, Salaries, $1,180,900 budgeted, up from $1,133,000. New positions?

MR. DWYER: That I believe is a position which

the federal government funded this year. It was an auditor position.

MR. J. BYRNE: That's for 1996-1997, you mean?

MR. DWYER: Yes, the difference between

1995-1996 and 1996-1997.

MR. J. BYRNE: Supplies, the same section,

$166,400 up from $99,300, and that was down from $316,400. There seem to be vast

differences here.

MR. DWYER: Well what happens in that area

there, for argument's sake, that would be the licence plates, stickers and

different things. What that is, when they go out and they purchase those types

of commodities they just don't purchase them every year they purchase them in

periodic years. So it will be up $150,000 one year rather than spread over four

years, for argument's sake.

MR. J. BYRNE: Information Technology: Basically

the same questions as before. There is some money being spent on computers and a

lot of the computers of course are doing away with jobs; we all know that. When

is there going to be a handle on when that is going to be completed, when we are

not going to have to spend this kind of money? If we go through every department

and look at Information Technology, we are up in the tens of millions of

dollars, I suppose.

MR. DWYER: I can only account for what

technology is going on within our department or our branch. That question would

probably better lend itself to the IT people in Treasury Board as a whole. As

you are probably aware, we submit an IT budget and in conjunction with the

people at Treasury Board - of the dollars that are available for government

spending, they are allocated based on government priorities.

MS WAKEHAM: I would like to add to the question

on information technology. This new department has probably one of the most

important functions in terms of registration and information about individuals

and companies that are operating. One of the things that we have to do is we

have to cooperate with federal agencies with respect to information. The systems

that are put in place in most cases are ones that can interface as well with the

federal government. There is a lot of information within the Motor Vehicle

Registration Division that is passed on both to the courts in terms of what is

happening, in terms of the federal agencies, in terms of what is happening with

individuals, and also there is a check in terms of criminal activities with

respect to motor vehicles that go across the whole of North America. So there is

a requirement for a fairly sophisticated system with respect to the retrieval

and the flow of information.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

MS WAKEHAM: Thank you.

MR. J. BYRNE: National Safety Code, Salaries:

It is up from $604,200 up to $651,300. If I remember correctly, it was either

the fall or the winter that the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation

with respect to the commercial trucking, talked about deregulating the trucking

industry. I would assume that were would have been layoffs with respect to that,

rather than an increase in salaries. What is going on there?

MR. DWYER: The small increase in the budget

figure for last year and this year would be for step increments. The difference

between the budget and revised for last year would have been not filling certain

positions. I am not aware that there was anything done with respect to

deregulation of the trucks.

MR. J. BYRNE: Definitely there was deregulation

announced with respect to the trucking industry. I just assumed then that, of

course, if he was doing that there would be more jobs gone. Obviously there are

no jobs gone here.

MS WAKEHAM: The federal government has provided

some monies to the department under the National Safety Code in order to ensure

that their safety standards are carried out. If you look at the whole National

Safety Code you will see that there is revenue from the federal government of

$207,000. That $207,000 is spread, if you look at the $730,000 to the $914,000,

throughout those categories to accommodate that person who is working, from the

federal government, to do audits on some of the commercial registrations and

standards that are ongoing.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 46, 3.2.01, Support Services, Salaries up

$73,000: Why would that be?

MR. DWYER: You are going to find in that

particular page here, page 46, that from time to time there are going to be

discrepancies between the estimates for this year, the budget for last year and

the revised for last year. That is because when we started out we did not have

all the persons in place at the time, and when we did our salary details in

conjunction with Treasury Board for last year's budget, we were not funded for

100 per cent of the permanent positions that we had because of the unlikeliness

of being able to fill them. To be able to fill them April 1, for argument sake,

we had to go through competitions etc. which meant that there were certain jobs

that would only be filled for six months during the first year. There were

certain offices that were not scheduled to be opened until July or August. In

light of that there were certain positions associated with a particular office

that were not projected to be filled until July, August, or November, for

argument's sake.

MR. J. BYRNE: These are new regional offices

you are talking about?

MR. DWYER: Yes. What happened there, when the

number of bodies and services came under the one department last year,

Government Services Centre, there were a number of vacancies in the system at

the time, and there were a number of vacancies which got reclassified and moved

around. The fact that the 160 positions that are in those divisions now were not

in effect and operating April 1, Treasury Board basically took the difference

and projected a savings for that year because of the inability to be able to

fill all the positions effective April 1.

MR. J. BYRNE: Very good. Same section,

Transportation and Communications, up $56,000 from what was spent. Same reason?

MR. DWYER: Same reason, yes. However, there is

a certain amount of forced savings in here from last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Supplies doubled, what was spent

to what you were planning on spending, $15,000 up to $29,300.

MR. DWYER: When we took the particular budgets

and the monies from the different departments and put them all under one, we

found out that throughout the first year of operation all the money may not have

been put in the appropriate places, in particular account centres. So something

you will see here this year that you won't see next, you will see underruns and

overruns, but at the end of the day it is pretty consistent with respect to

staying within budget.

MR. J. BYRNE: Purchased Services: Last year it

$470,000, this year it is $779,400, which is $309,000 more. What would Purchased

Services be? Again, same reasoning, I suppose.

MR. DYWER: As I explained, Mr. Byrne, that was

on the leased accommodations.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes. Bob asked that question, I

think.

Property, Furnishings and Equipment, $40,000 last

year and you have $43,500 this year. What would the $40,000 have been spent on?

Was it actually furnishings? What was it?

MR. DWYER: It could be anything from

furnishings, like photocopy machines and different things like that. When we

took over staff from other departments, if we took over 50 per cent of the staff

we basically had to give and take on some of the items such as photocopy

machines and that. Basically that is the majority of what would have been spent

on that, some machinery like that.

MR. J. BYRNE: When the department was formed

and the different sections came into the department, wouldn't the sections - I

mean, I don't even know if the department is actually set up as a department

yet, with respect to, say, Municipal Affairs has its own

section and Environment

and Labour has its own floor or whatever the case may be. Is the department

actually together now as a department type of thing? If they are, when it did

come together with these different sections, and you had the employees coming to

the department, wouldn't they have their own furnishings, desks, computers, and

all that stuff? Why would it be necessary to buy more?

MR. McLEAN: We are certainly not together. We

are all over -

MR. J. BYRNE: That is what I thought.

MR. McLEAN: - the Confederation Building and

beyond, in terms of the office space. Even the headquarters is not together. We

have Mike down in Municipal Affairs, Barbara and myself are up on the third

floor, and Winston is somewhere in the Confederation Building. When we do get

together, when we are able to put the department into one section, obviously

some of these things are going to fall into place, but right now we have taken

things from different areas. There is going to be a lot of confusion in terms of

what comes with us and what doesn't. Until we get that squared away there is

going to be a lot of flexibility in these types of figures.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well then, if that is the case,

and obviously it is the case, some of the answers that Mike was giving with

respect to when the new department was formed and you had to have money for

Property, Furnishings and Equipment, if they are still in the same place, why

would you need this extra money to be spent?

MS WAKEHAM: With respect to the new department,

there was no Property, Furnishings and Equipment vote either for the minister's

office or the deputy's office. I brought my furniture as an ADM. That left a

hole back down in the other department when I took mine out, so that somebody in

another department had to find it. As far as I understand there has been a

freeze on property, furnishings and equipment. And consequently, if you are very

good at relocation then you may be able to find some furniture to put into your

offices.

The other thing that happens is when you move out

of a department there are shared services. There are shared photo copiers, there

are shared shredders, there are shared printers, there are all kinds of shared

things. Consequently, depending on how many people are moving out, they decide

whether or not they keep the equipment or you have to find it some place else.

So there is always the problem of trying to find some extra equipment as a

result of changes within the organization itself.

As a matter of fact, the minister was using a

director's furnishings until we managed to find some over in the Viking Building

for him when there were some changes over there. So basically we are using

furniture that somebody else had in another department that we have managed to

relocate into ours.

MR. J. BYRNE: But a lot of these sections have

not relocated yet.

MS WAKEHAM: No, no. What is going to happen in

terms of the department is, we probably have a requirement for about 60,000

square feet and we do not have that. The regionalization of the operation that

we have right now will stay the same. Mews Place will stay Mews Place. So, the

regional operations in terms of the government centres will stay where they are.

The Executive will move into Confederation Building and hopefully we will have

the Commercial and Corporate Affairs Group, part of which is now down in

Elizabeth Towers,

part in the East Block, and I do not know where the other

part

is, but anyway we are hoping to put all of that together in one group so we can

actually have some kind of efficient operation in terms of the Executive in at

least one of the branches.

The Lands Branch will not be moving. Howley

Building will not be moving, nor will the regional operations. We have just

finished doing the Co-location of the Crown Lands and the GSCs together. So they

are completed now, with the exception of some annualization that has to be done

because of the nature of the operations.

MR. J. BYRNE: The people who moved recently who

moved into Elizabeth Towers within this past year will be moving again?

MS WAKEHAM: The people who are in Elizabeth

Towers right now have been there for a number of years.

MR. J. BYRNE: Didn't we ask a question earlier

and there was some answer given with respect to somebody moving into Elizabeth

Towers?

MR. MORRIS: The Landlord-Tenant Relations

Division, most of the staff were in Elizabeth Towers, but what moved in last

year was the Board. There is a hearing room. That is what moved in last year,

and that will have to be relocated again; it is true.

MR. J. BYRNE: Very good. What else? I had

Property, Furnishings, and Equipment under Regional Services highlighted again,

up from $20,000 to $37,900. We just kind of hashed that out, didn't we?

Under Vital Statistics Registry, Information

Technology: the same question. It needs to be directed to another group, okay.

Crown Land, page 48, Transportation - we basically

touched on the salaries already - Transportation and Communications up about

$96,000. Why would that be? I mean, Crown Lands is Crown Lands. I do not think

there is anything new there, is there?

MS. WAKEHAM: The increase in the operational

funding is in relation to the ten new people that are being put in place and the

requirement to do the additional assessments and to do the checks for the title

documentation on the Grant Conversion Program.

MR. J. BYRNE: Purchased Services, up $22,000.

What Purchased Services would that be?

MS WAKEHAM: We are going to have an increase in

our requirements for printing and an increase in our requirement for supplies to

cover -

MR. J. BYRNE: Hopefully.

MS WAKEHAM: Hopefully. This whole program,

basically, the one program itself is impacting. The only thing that has changed

in Crown Lands is that one program and that is why it is showing throughout some

of the this. It is really in relation to our requirement to deliver that

particular program.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under Surveying and Mapping,

Salaries went from $484,500 to $525,300 and then back down to $484,500. Why

would that be?

MS WAKEHAM: The $525,300 that is showing there

is not an actual increase in terms of - what has happened is there has been a

shortfall as a result of no vacancies, and consequently there hasn't been any

money to cover reclassifications or to cover step increases. This is an

accumulated effect that has been there that has been covered up by the whole

salary vote in question. This is not actual dollars in terms of an individual

body. This is an accumulated shortfall they have had as a result of their

salaries.

MR. J. BYRNE: So there won't be any changes in

reclassifications or anything this year coming up? Very good.

With respect to the $6.2 million - this is the last

page (inaudible) - in revenues that the department is expecting to get this

year, is that shown here anywhere?

MS WAKEHAM: The revenue shows up in

government's overall central revenue. We have made cases in the past to be able

to show that it is a self-efficient operation. The revenues go into the

Consolidated Revenue Fund, they do not go into the individual departmental

accounts. The revenue is showing in government's overall Consolidated Revenue,

not in the department. There is, I understand, a supplement to fee increases

that should show some of the different changes in the fee structures that will

result in some of the contributories to the Consolidated Revenue.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, but you have revenues here

in different sections going to this department.

MS WAKEHAM: The revenues that are shown right

now in here are based on federal-provincial agreements, they are not based on

general revenue. If you look at the geomatics agreement, that is a

federal-provincial agreement. If you look at the National Safety Code that is a

federal component that is in there. In terms of provincial government, we do not

show revenues associated. We would actually like to be able to show revenues

associated with our jobs so that we could show we are doing a good job and

generating more revenue, but unfortunately that isn't the case.

MR. J. BYRNE: But under Surveying and Mapping

there is Revenue - Provincial, $75,000. Under Crown Lands there is Revenue -

Provincial, $180,000.

MS WAKEHAM: Yes, but that is basically the sale

of maps that are purchased from the federal government that have come back. We

purchase the NTS maps from the federal government and we sell them here in the

Province; that is all that is.

MR. J. BYRNE: So any of the monies that you

would normally have been taking in through Crown Lands over the years with

respect to leases and/or grants, you know, your yearly fee or your rate, is not

shown? That goes into general revenues.

MS WAKEHAM: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have a few more questions that

I was prepared to ask, but I think I will save them for a later date. That is it

for me, thank you.

CHAIR: Gerald.

MR. SMITH: Just a couple of quick questions,

Mr. Chairman.

That one Jack just touched on, I noted as we were

going through it, that was the revenue side. Just as an addition to that. With

the Motor Vehicle Registration, I would assume right now that we should be

generating enough revenue from that operation to look after the costs that are

reflected in this budget. Would that be accurate?

MS WAKEHAM: Motor Vehicle Registration

generates approximately $45 million per year to the Consolidated Revenue Fund.

MR. SMITH: Forty-five million dollars.

MS WAKEHAM: Forty-five million dollars. In

fact, the department as a whole generates somewhere between $70 million and $75

million on an expenditure of roughly $20 million. So we have about a four to one

ratio in terms of our revenue generation to our expenditure.

MR. SMITH: I can understand why you would want

to see these figures reflected here in your budget.

MS WAKEHAM: I would certainly love to see it.

MR. SMITH: The other point that I would just

want to raise with the minister, if I might, because it is an area that,

certainly as a new minister, I think I would like to avail of this opportunity

to raise.

Most of us, in our capacities as MHAs, receive a

number of complaints with regard to Crown Lands. One of the areas is in terms of

applications especially for people who are looking for permits to occupy remote

cottages and things of that nature. What, in your understanding right now, is a

reasonable turnaround time from the time that a person makes an application

until they either have a rejection or they have received their permit?

MR. McLEAN: My understanding right now is that

it is a two- or three-month period of turnaround, and that is required

presently, I guess, where a number of referrals come into the office, and I

guess the decision comes back into St. John's to be made. One of the areas that

we are targeting in that respect is to be able to have the decision-making done

in the regions with the regional office. Once the application is put in there,

referrals go into that particular regional office and the decision is made there

which will substantially reduce the turnaround time for decisions to be made,

either yes or no.

MR. SMITH: Okay. The message I would like to

give you this morning - and I speak from personal experience on this one - about

a year and a half ago I decided I was going to make application for a permit to

occupy and to build a cabin. The first thing I did is meet the Director of Crown

Lands, and I must say the office was very supportive. We went down, went through

the maps and looked at the area with the Director's understanding and that of

his officials, that in the area I was looking to get a permit for there should

not be a problem. I made application. Nine months passed before I received my

rejection. The letter that came simply gave the reason why it was denied and:

Would you please select another site and reapply again.

Now, Minister, I say to you, if you are receiving

that kind of a reply, I mean that is - and I give you that message this morning

because I think it is the sort of thing where our officials have to be more

understanding. They are there to serve the citizens of this Province, and it is

not good enough when a citizen makes an application and waits nine months for a

rejection. It would not have bothered me, if I had gotten a rejection even in

two months. I think that is understandable. But after nine months, then to come

back with a rejection, just a terse statement, select another site and please

reapply, I mean, your time is nothing. That kind of thing at the time really,

really bothered me.

Now I was able to get - because I guess I have

easier access to the office here. Somewhere along the way, in the change,

something is breaking down when this is happening. It is not isolated. This

instance here, I speak from personal experience, but I have also had a number of

people who have called me and related these experiences in terms of dealing with

the Crown Lands Division.

I give you that this morning because I think it is

something that, as a new minister, you can take on and communicate to your

officials. First and foremost, we are servants of the people of this Province,

you and I and all the other officials here this morning and everyone who works

for this government. I think if we had that message out there, and people see

that, then all of our jobs may be a little easier.

MR. McLEAN: Certainly that is not acceptable to

me either, to go through that kind of a time frame without a response. These are

the things that we will be dealing with and I can assure you that I will be

taking that under advisement. Hopefully, as I said, the regionalization of the

actual approval itself, you know, staying in the region, in my mind, should be

able to take care of a lot of that. Besides that, my understanding is we have

some problems with the referral process, that some of the referral agencies and

departments do not necessarily get back to the Crown Lands Branch. Therefore

there is a wait on a referral that may come in. Take for instance, a cabin

development along a highway, the Department of Highways - in my case, in just

the last little while I have been involved in a couple of them - have not

referred back in the last four months. We have to do something about that and we

are in the process of doing something about that. Certainly that is an area

where we will be improving the service, I can guarantee you that.

MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

CHAIR: I get a sense that there are no more

questions. So, if we could -

MR. SMITH: Mr. Chairman, I move that we move

the Budget Estimates, please, subheads 1.1.01 through 4.1.05.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through to 4.1.05,

carried.

On motion, Department of Government Services and

Lands, total heads, carried.

CHAIR: Before we move on then, could we have a

motion for adoption of those minutes, with the correction that was seconded by

Mr. French instead of Mr. Byrne, the last meeting.

On motion, minutes adopted, as circulated.

CHAIR: I want to thank the Minister and his

staff for being here this morning and giving such detailed answers without any

problems. It certainly shows how efficient you people are, and we greatly

appreciate it. I want to thank the Committee members for being here.

MR. McLEAN: Just a final remark, (inaudible)

and also the other information that was requested will be forwarded to the

Committee, as quickly as we can.

CHAIR: I appreciate that, Mr. Minister. Thank

you.

On motion, Committee adjourned.