Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 68A (32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-68a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA Thursday, 3 Jun e, 19 82 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenti ng Peti- tions . Read ing and Rece iving Petitions . PRESENT ING REPO RTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMM ITTEES MR . SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for ln kster. MR . D. SCOTT: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Thir d Re port of the Sta nding Commit tee on Economic Developme nt. MR. ACTING CLERK, G. Mackintosh: Your Commit tee met on Thur sday, Jun e 3, 19 82, to consid er the Annual Re ports of Man itoba Mi neral Resou rces Ltd. and Mani toba Forestry Resources Ltd.

Mr. M. Anderson, Chair man of the Board and Mr. C. Malc olm Wrigh t, Pr esid ent of Man itoba Mi ne ral Resou rces Ltd ., provided such in formati on as was req uir ed by members of the Comm ittee with respect to the Com pany. In formati on with respect to all matters pert aining to the operati ons of Man itoba Fo restry Resou rces Ltd. was provi ded by Mr. leifur Hallgrimson, Chairman and Ch ief Executive Officer. The Annu al Reports of Manitoba Mi neral Resou rces Ltd. and Mani toba Forestry Resources Ltd ., as pres ented, were adopted by the Commi ttee. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for I nk ster. MR.

D. SCOTT: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honour able Memb er for Ellic e, tha t the Report of the Commit tee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINI STERIAL STATEM ENTS AND TABLING OF REPOR TS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of En ergy and Mi nes. HON. W. PARA SIUK: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the Ann ual Repor t of the Man itoba Forestry Resour ces Ltd. for the year en ded Septe mber 30, 19 81. I apolog ize to the Ho use for not ta bling it sooner. It was an oversight on my part. MR . SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter of Healt h. HON. l. DE SJAR DINS: Mr.

Speaker, I'd lik e to table the Fina nc ial State ment of the Alcoh oli sm Foundation of Man itoba for the fis cal year ending March 31 , 19 81, and I'd like to ask leave of the Ho use to give a few words of explana tion on thi s, if I may. MR. SPEAKER: Is that agreed? (Agreed) The Honour able Min ister of Health. HON. l. DE SJAR DINS: The last Annu al Re port tha t was table d for the Founda tion was for the calendar year 19 80 and includ ed Fi nancial Statements for the fi scal period 19 79-80.

We have decided tha t it would be more in formativ e to the Leg islatur e and to the pub lic in gener al to publish both the program and fin an cial data on a fiscal year basis. Hop efull y, next month I will be ta bling the Ann ual Repor t for the fiscal year 19 81 -82. As a result of this change and method of presentat ion, the Financial Statements for the fiscal yea r 19 80-81 would have been missed from the Annu al Re port and the refore I am tabl ing them in the Leg islatur e today. MR . SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Fort Gar ry. MR. l. SHERM AN: Mr.

Speaker. thank you, I just want to ackno wledge the Minis ter's statement and hi s in formation relative to the Financial State ment of the AFM. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Natu ral Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I want to table the fir st Annual Report. to the Leg islatur e on Wildl ife. MR. SPEAKER: Noti ces of Motion .. . In troduction of Bi lls IN TRODUC TION OF GUES TS MR.

SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Que stions , may I dir ect the atte ntion of the honour able members to the loge on my right and to the gal lery. 2982 On my right is the Ho nourable Ric har d Ner ysoo, Min ister of Renewable Resou rces of the Nor thwest Territor ies, who is here to sign an agreement between the Federal Government and the Govern ments of Man itoba, Saskatchewan and No rth west Territories. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here today. There are 20 students of Grades 9 and 1 O standing of the R.B. Russell School under the dir ection of Miss Med inski and Mr. Teo h.

The school is in the consti tuenc y of the Honour able Member for St. John s. Ther e are 27 student s of the Hugh John Macdonald School under the dir ection of Mrs. Hum melsho j and another teacher who se name I am afraid I cannot read. The school is the constit uenc y of the Hono urable Min ister of Educ ation. Ther e are 56 student s of Gr ade 5 standing of the Lacerte Scho ol under the dir ection of Mrs. Monique Ting. The school is in the consti uency of the Honour able Memb er for Ni akwa. Th ere are 27 student s of Gr ade 5 standing of the King George V School under the dir ection of Mrs. Hen derson.

The school is located in the constituenc y of the Honour able Minis ter of Health and Fitn ess. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon.

ORAL QUES TIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHE RMAN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honour able Min ister of Com muni ty Services and I would ask him, Sir , whether he can advise the Ho use whether the govern ment ha s made a dec ision to expand the St. Amant Centr e by some 24 to 28 beds? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Com munity Services. HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, as the honour able member kno ws, this a matter tha t's been under con siderat ion for many a year, including when my hon ourable frien d was Mini ster of Health and Communi ty Services or Social Devel opment as it is called. I can advis e the member tha t the matter is under review, it's in process, and when we're in a position to make a policy statement, the policy statement will be made, but not until we're in a position to do so. MR. L. SHERM AN: Mr. Speaker, could I ask the Min is ter whe ther the unofficial commen ts of his colle ague, the Mini ster of He alth, at St.

Amant last Sunda y after noon, are to be interpr eted as ind icative of the fact tha t the decision has vir tually been made and it is si mply a matter of the timing of the announ cement. MR . SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Min ister of Health. HON. L. DE SJARDI NS: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that I have been brought in to this debate, I think tha t I should answer it and say the state ment tha t I made, if you can call it a state ment, would be tha t the Min ister shoul d be making an annou ncement soon and I sti ck by tha t. It doesn't go contrary to the answer that has been given by my colleague. MR. L.

SHERM AN: Mr. Speaker, I appreci ate that, but I would lik e to red irect my origina l que stion to the Mini ster of Com munity Services and ask him whe ther the comments of his colle ague, as redeli neated by hi s col leag ue just now. reflect the fact tha t the decision has in fact been made and is simply a matter of timing of the annou ncement? MR . SPEAK ER: The Honour ab le Mini ster of Com munity Services. HON. L. EVANS: Wel l, Mr.

Speaker , ther e are alwa ys factors tha t ha ve to be taken in to consi derat ion, and while the gov ernment may move in one dir ection or an other, I would say tha t the final point of decision making is when we are at a point that we can make a polic y announc ement, and tha t's the final poin t in decision-mak in g. MR . L. SHERM AN: Mr. Speaker, could I ask the Mini s ter of Communi ty Services about the next-to-f in al point of decision-mak ing? He has defi ned the final poin t as being tha t moment when the government makes the ann ouncement.

Could I ask him whe ther the next-to-f inal point, the poin t at which the decision 2983 is made, has been traversed? HON. L. EVANS: Wel l, I can advise the member tha t the matter is bei ng actively reviewed and it's in pro cess and we're ta lking to many many people. MR. l. SHERM AN: Mr. Speaker, has the Min ister completed and in deed, Sir , has he even undertaken the in dependent review of the needs of the cer tai n number of childr en at St. Amant which he advised the Ho use he wou ld be undertaking.

On the 15 th of March, in the cou rse of the exami nation of his Esti mates, he adv ised the Comm ittee of Su pply tha t he would be undert aking an in depen dent review of the needs of the chi ld ren at St. Amant. Has tha t in depen dent review been underta ken? Was it in dependent and has it been comple ted? HON. L. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, we have talke d to a number of people with regard to tha t so-calle d in de penden t review, but the dif ficult y I am finding in this field - I am sti ll a novic e in the field of mental retarda tion and social devel opment - is tha t it's very di fficult to find people who do n't have a very strong position on one sid e or on the other. Ha ving talked to a number of people, I find that it's very di ffi cul t to find persons around who have absolutely no bia s or no precon ceived notions on the matters. It's a very di ffi cult thing.

As the member kno ws, he him self set up this task force on mental retardat ion. We are hoping tha t par ticular task force would come up wi th some answers, but I am afra id tha t task force, which he hi mself set up, find s itself at very serious odds on this particular question. MR. L. SHE RMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I accept the Min is ter's com ments with respect to the di fficu lty of the phi losoph ical disp ute and I am well aware of the two poi nts of vie w in tha t fi eld, but the Min ister has as hi s Di rector of Mental Retard ation for the Pro vi nce of Mani toba a person who is not a novi ce, a person who has been in the field for many years and is well known to Man itobans and particularly to the M. A. co mmunity in the person of Dr. Glen Lowther. In vie w of the fact tha t Dr . Glen Lowther has said tha t from 30 to 50 childr en could be taken out of St.

Amant and supported in the commun ity in a more fortu itous and benef icial way to them and possibly in a less expensiv e way than in St. Amant, tha t such a move wou ld free up 30 to 50 beds at St. Amant, in clud ing the cottages, the reby making room for wha t addi tional client ele in terms of residents the St. Amant Centre would li ke to accom modate, why would the Min ister be proceed ing to the point of a decision on the expansion of St. Aman! without tak ing all the se pieces of advice and consi derat ion in to account? HON. L. EVANS: The hono urable member refers, Mr. Speaker, to Dr .

Glen Lowther, a very very fine man and one who we depend on greatly as the Di rector of Mental Reta rdation Programs in the Province of Mani toba. I can assure the House tha t I ha ve had several con versa tions and in tense di scussions with Dr. Lowther on this particular question. We will cert ainly be guided by his expert advice.

I migh t add, Mr. Speaker , because the member ref ers to the need for com muni ty res id en ces and so on, I think all of us agree that we should put more empha sis, as much as possible , with in our limi ted resources on addi ng to communi ty residences and com munity activitie s.

In tha t respect, I belie ve if my memory serves me correctly, in this year's budget al one , if you look at all the funds for occu pational centr es, act ivity centres, mon ies for day care centres which relate to the mentally handicapp ed and respite programs, monies for new resid en ces and so on, I think the incr ease comes to something lik e 29 percent for community living and community programs. MR. L. SHER MAN: Mr.

Speaker, notwithst anding all that, can the Mini ster advise the House when he intends to respond to the April 29th proposal on com muni ty living which he received from the CAMR , when he in tends to respond to re peated req uests for meeti ngs with the CAMR , when he in tends to act on the promise that he made on March the 15 th in his Estima tes that he would be id entif ying the site loca tions of the eight new co mmunity residences with in two to th ree weeks - that was on March the 15 th - and whether he can assure this Ho use that, in view of all that he has said, ther e will be no decision and the re is no decision on any expansion of St.

Amant at this poin t in time ? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, the honour able member refers to many programs, many det ails. I can simply say this, tha t with the assistance of the very competent staff tha t we have in the departme nt, in cluding Dr . Lowther and hi s branch, we are wor king as expedi tiously as possible to put in to effect the various pro grams and the funding tha t we referred to in the Esti mates. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I dir ect my que stion to the Mini ster in char ge of Lotteries and wou ld ask the Min ister if he cou ld in form the Ho use whether the Min ister or the Min ister's office is inv olv ed in determ ining which community or non profit organi zations receive casino li cenc es? MR. SPEAKER : The Honour able Min ister of Health. HON. L. DES JAR DINS: Mr. Speaker, no, not at all. This, so far, has always been done by the Licensi ng Board and they have never consu lted me on th at. I offered no advice to them on th at. MR. R. BANMAN: A supple mentary que stion, Mr. Speaker, to the same Min ister.

I wonder if he could in form the Ho use whether he or his office is in vol ved in determ ining which com munity or non profit organi zations receive bingo li cenc es. HON. L. DES JAR DINS: It 's the same an swer for bin go, and if you want to save time , it's the same an swer for the Nevada and all the way down the li ne. I ha ven't ent ered in tha t field at all, or offered any sug gestions at all. 2984 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Memb er for La Verendr ye. MR. R.

BANMAN: I wonder if the Min ister could in form the House whe ther th ere is a new Ma nitoba Lottery bei ng int rodu ced by the Western Lotteries Foundat ion. HON. L. DESJ ARDINS: Mr. Speaker, the member al ready kno ws the answer to that, because when he was Min ister his representative auth orized tha t and it's not by the Western Cana da Lottery Foundation, it's the ln terpro vincial Com mittee and yes, this is a fact this is bei ng in troduced. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mini ster of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING : Mr.

Speaker, someti me ago, a que stion was put to me and I ha ve the deta ile d answer to that. I took the que stion as notice. It's a fairly lengthy question and rather than paraph rase the question to give the questioner a fair acco unt of the que stion, I'll read the question and then read the detailed answer that I have for that. This was a question by the Hono urable Memb er for Bir tle-Russell - I'm sorry - Vir den. I keep thinking of Russell when I see the Honour able Memb er for Virden; I always think of Russell - formerly the consti tuency of Russell. The que stion, Mr .

Speaker, was: "It appears as though the operation of the PFRA Shell mouth Dam as a control structu re and to regulate the flow of water in the Assinib oine River doesn't operate with the same philo sophy at all as the Qu'Ap pelle Valle y autho rity does and the Qu'Appelle Valle y water is als o part of the Assinib oine River.

Ho wever, it comes in to the Assin iboine below the She llmo uth Dam and the result is tha t while we hold the water back in the Shell mouth Dam and release it later on in the summer, the operat ion of the seven contr ol struc tures in the Qu'Appelle Val ley release the water qu ickly in the month of June so the y can get the water le vels in their various takes down so the y have beaches available for recrea tion during the months of July and August.

The poor li ttle farmer s tha t are in the Qu'Appelle Val ley here in Mani toba get a whole bunch of water dumped on them after the spring run off when their crops get flooded out. " The answer tha t the department has furnishe d me in con nection with this question is as foll ows: "The control structu res along the Qu' Appelle River are opene d each fall and kept open through the spring run-off period unless forecasts indic ate a lo w spring runoff. In a high flow yea r, the structu res are not closed until the peak is passed and levels on the lake s have receded to their desirable summer levels.

Th ere fore, in a high flow year, the flood passes do wn the Qu'Appelle Val ley in the same way tha t it does under natural cond itions . In fact, the action of drawing down the lake s in the fall provides in creased flood storage capacity in the lakes which could result in lower rather than higher peak flows enteri ng Man itoba. "The only works along the Qu' Appelle which could in crease flo oding in Man itoba are chan nel improve ments which would permit Saskatc hewan to reduce flood ing in high flow years, th ereby in crea sing peak

Thursday, 3 June, 19 82 flows ente ring Man itoba. Saskatchewan's current plan for chan nel improvement in the lower Qu'Appelle were recently reviewed by the Water Resources Branch. The study found that alth ough peaks will be in creased slig htly in Man itoba, the impact will be min imal if the structu res are operated as presently operated. "The impression tha t Saskatchewan in creases releases in the month of June probably arises from the observation of a second flood peak occurring a cou- ple of weeks righ t after the fi rst flood peak . " MR. SPEAKER: Or der please.

The Ho nour able Memb er for Turtle Mountain on a point of order. MR. B. RANSOM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we do apprecia te receiving the answers to questi ons raised in commit tee, but I don' t belie ve tha t the time of question period shoul d be taken up in providing lengthy answers to questi ons tha t were raised in committee. We would be happy to have the m in written form. HON. A. MACKLI NG: Mr. Speaker, speaking on the point of order, I don' t bel ieve this questi on was asked during the cou rse of committee Es tima tes. This que s tion was asked in the Ho use and it wasn't a req uest for an Or der for Return.

It was a request for an answer to this questi on. I am providing the deta il ed answer to this question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Vi rden on the same poin t of order. MR. H. GRAHAM: On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I did not ask the qu estion in the Ho use. I asked it in committee and I thought the honour able member kn ew the rules of this Assembly, but it is valuable in formation tha t I appreciate rec eivi ng.

I do wish tha t he would respect the ru les of the House and provide the an swers to questions tha t were asked in Supply, either in written form or by personal conv ersation, so tha t we can use the que stion period for the purpose for which it was design ed. MR. SPEA KER: The Honour able Min ister of Health on the same point of order. HON. L. DE SJARDINS: On the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, it certa inl y has been the custom to ask questions and if the odd que stion could not be ans wered during the Estima tes, the answers were alwa ys promised at this time.

Now, we would be the fi rst one s to be critici zed, Mr. Speaker, if we fol lowed the sug gestion of the last speaker and gave him something in writing. The question and the answer are the property of all the members of this Ho use and they are entitled to kn ow, so I don' t kn ow of any other methods of giving this answer. If the member ha d asked for some thing in a written fo rm, he would receive an answer in a written form. MR. SPEAKER: Has the Honour able Min ister of Natu ral Resources al most comple ted his reply? HON. A. MACKLI NG: Mr. Speaker , I was on the con cluding paragraph. 2985 MR.

SPEAKE R: Proceed. HON. A. MACKLI NG: Mr. Speaker, "The impression that Saska tc hewan in creases releases in the month of June probably aris es from the observat ion of the second flood peak occurring a couple of weeks after the fi rst flood peak on the Qu'Appelle River in Mani toba. This double peak ing is a natur al phenomenon which has occu rred in al most every flood year in the Qu'Appelle. The fi rst peak is a local run-off peak from the lower reaches of the Qu' Appelle River.

The second peak comes from the upper Qu' Appelle and its tribu tari es, most notably the Moose Jaw River, which takes one to two weeks to pass through the Qu'Appelle Lakes. This double peak ing of the lower Qu'Appelle Riv er is a natu ral phenomenon and can not be attrib uted to structure operations. " MR. SPEAK ER: The Hono urable Member for Vir den. MR. H. GRAHAM: I want to thank the Honour able Min ister for his reply and I will deal with it next year whe n we are in Estima tes. I only regret tha t it took the Min ister that long to get the answer . MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for St. Norbert. MR.

G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , before proceeding with a que stion to the Atto rney-General, on the point of order tha t was raised, I would suggest - and you did n't make a ruling - that you take the matter under advisement. Through the cou rse of Estima tes, numerous questions are asked, Mr. Speaker, which the Min ister takes as notice because the staff that he has ava ilable doesn't have the answer.

If a Min ister is going to be allo wed subseq uently to stand up in que s tion period and read out all of the answers he's accumula ted from his staff, it si mply takes away from the whole purpose of que stion period, which is a time for the Op position to ask questions of the Treasury Bench. The whole que stion period cou ld be taken up for weeks, Mr. Speaker, with answer s tha t Min isters ac cumu la ted dur ing the cour se of Supp ly consi dera tion. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Atto rney-General.

Could the Atto rney-General ind icate whethe r he has received any req uest for either he or his department to take any action as a result of Ci ty of Winn ipeg Polic e decisions or act ion yesterday? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Attorney- Ge neral. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, no, I ha ve not. I should advise the House tha t I'm in constant touch with both the employer and the emplo yees con cerned in this particu lar disput e and I will keep the Ho use advised . MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Pembi na. MR. D. OR CHARD: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Mini ster of Municip al Affa irs.

Could the Min ister in form the House as to whether appl ication forms for his Main Street Man itoba Program have gone out to the various communities in rural Man itoba?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mini ster of Munici pal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. The forms and letter and an appl ication form have gone out to all local govern ments who would be in terested in the program. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIED GER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Min ister of Na tural Resources: the Premier and his col leagues stopped the sale of agricultur al lease Crown lands th ree weeks after the y took office whi ch, incid entally, was not one of their many campaign promises, and the y indi cated tha t the y were reviewing the program.

Can the Mi nister now ind icate when the y will again proceed with the popular program of sel ling agricultur al lease Cr own lands to farmers? MR. SPEAKER: The Min ister of Natu ral Resources. HON. A. MACKLING : Mr. Speaker, as a matter of public record by the Or ders-in-Council tha t are fi led tha t will in dic ate, if the honour able member wishe s to check, ther e has been a conti nuation of sale of Cr own lands.

Th ere is a review of the criteria in respect to the sale of Cr own lands because we were not satisfied tha t the conc ern of the previous admin istration in respect to rete ntion of Crown lands for multi purposes was necessarily focussed correctly. It seemed tha t ther e was a very signi ficant in crease in the sale of Crown lands and we certainly wanted to exam ine tha t and we are continuing our exam in ation. However, th ere is a contin uation of sale of Cr own lands both commercial and in respect to agricul tural. MR. A. DR IED GE R: Mr.

Speaker, to the same Min ister then: is he then indi cating tha t the program was not frozen and tha t the Mini ster is still accepti ng new appli cati ons for the sale of agricultur al lease Crown lan ds? HON. A. MACKLI NG: Wha t was the question? MR. A. DRIED GER: I'll repeat the question. Is the Min ister in di cati ng tha t this program was not frozen and tha t the Min ister is now accepti ng, on a conti nu ous basis, new appl ic ations for the sale of agricultur al lease Crown lands ? HON. A. MACKLING : Mr.

Speaker, no, I had not in di cated tha t we are encoura ging further appl icati ons for the sale of Crown lan ds. We are conti nuing to process the applic ations tha t had alr eady been on file. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Min nedosa. MR. D. BL AKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My que stion is to the Hono urable Min ister of He alth.

In view of the lon gstanding atte mpts and efforts being made to amalgama te the City of Winnip eg Ambu lanc e Service with the Fir e Department and in view of the apparent breakdown in negotia tions, I wonder what efforts his good offices have taken to try and bring the se two 3 June, 19 82 groups together to solve their problems. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mini ster of He alth. HON. L. DES JAR DINS: Mr. Speaker , at our request, the Man itoba Health Services Commission conduc ted a study.

This was boarded thr ough the City of Win ni peg and it is now a decision to be arriv ed at, a decision tha t rests with the Ci ty of Winnip eg, the unions, the Fir e Dep artment and so on. We have inf ormed the city that we were anxious tha t someth ing should be done, but we haven't trie d to int erfere at this time . MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, th ere's been consider able funds spent on the se studies, Mr. Speaker , and the Min is ter's department had ind icated earlier tha t th ere was a breakdown in the service.

How long would he feel would be a reaso nable length of time before he might take some ac tion to urge those two side s to get together? HON. L. DES JAR DINS: Mr. Speaker , I would wel come a suggestion from the honour able member. I take it tha t he migh t be suggesting at this time tha t the gover nment should in terfere, the Provi ncial Govern ment. If his advice is tha t we in form the city tha t we are qui te concerned, that has been done repeatedly.

No w let me make it qui te clear that the provi nce now or under the former govern ment or the previous gov ernme nt before tha t, ever since tha t program has been in place, it has alwa ys been the polic y of the govern ment of the day not to accept and to feel tha t the y were responsible for the del ivery of ambula nce services. It is a per capita grant to help the di fferent muni cipal ities to better serve the public in thi s respect.

No w, of cou rse, the Depar tment of Health has a responsi bili ty if we feel the health of Mani tobans are suffering and we might ha ve to look at it, but at this time, it is something that rests with the Cit y of Winnip eg. We have made it qui te clear to them tha t we're anxious to have an answer. We have also had certa in funds that are waiti ng to be able to train the se people as soon as a decision is made and that's wh ere it is at this time. 2986 MR. D. BL AKE: A final supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, I wonde r if the Mi nister could in form the House if he's considering or looking at the possibili ty of ambu lanc e services bei ng provided as an insur ed service under The Hospi tal Services Act. HON. L. DESJAR DINS: This would be a great di rec tion to move, but certa inl y not at this time with the money being expe cted from the Federal Gove rnmen t bei ng greatly reduced. This is probably not the year to start this new program. IN TRODUC TION OF GUES TS MR. SPEAKER: Or der please.

This might be a con ve ni ent time to in terru pt the proceed ings for a moment to dir ect the atte ntion of honour able members to the galler y wh ere th ere are 54 student s of Gr ade 5 stand ing of the Tann ers Cros sing School under the dir ec tion of Mr. Cowan and Mrs. Shor rock. The school is in the consti tuenc y of the Honour able Memb er

Thursday, 3 June, 19 82 for Min nedosa. Th ere are 21 stude nts of Gr ade 5 stan ding from the Pi lot Mound Scho ol under the dir ecti on of Mi ss John son. This school is in the cons tituency of the Honour able Memb er for Pembina. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, a que stion to the Attorney-General who is apparently "A" rated by some people. -(Interjec tion)- Mr.

Speaker, in the time of the previous admin istra tion, it was agreed tha t with respect to the Land Title s' operation in Manitoba that we would mai ntain for the descri ption of all Land Title s for rur al areas in our province, the trad itional system of sections , towns hip s and range s, in other words, the acreage system, rather than go through the non sensical process of trying to convert tha t par ticu lar system of measurement to the metric system.

Can the Attorney-General give the assuranc e to the Ho use and to the people of Manitoba tha t very common sense in junction is sti ll bei ng mai ntai ned by his govern ment? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Attorney- General. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, with out acc eding to the rather pejorative lang uage of the Leader of the Op po sition, certa inl y the re is no in tention to change the traditional townsh ip, range and

section system of ascri bing land in ru ral Man itoba. In fact, as I advised the Memb er for St. Nor bert during Estim ates, or someone else in comm ittee during Estim ates, the re is a consi derable sum of money being spent this year, as the re has been in previous years for the last few years, in updating the somewha t badly worn out survey in the sense tha t some of the monu ments are worn out particu larly in the southern part of the provi nce wh ere th ere is ext ens ive need, great need, for an updating of the survey. So, rather than phasing it out, we're updat ing the survey on the trad itional basis.

HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, that's most reassuring to kno w tha t common -sense rule at least is being foll owed by the present governme nt. Can the Min ister give the furthe r assuranc e tha t some of the enthus i asm for the use of the metric measurement for land, that measurement in other respects, for instance, in assessment and so on, the enthus iasts will not be allo wed to use the taxpayers' money to in volve them selves in tha t frivolit y and tha t we will conti nue with the tr aditional land descri ptions with respect to assessment as well? HON. R.

PENNER: The question is so wide ranging, so nebulo us, so vague and so in capable of answe ring tha t I would be doing both the member and the Ho use a di sservice by even attempti ng. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I apolog ize for refe rring to topic s tha t are obviously beyond the kn owledge and understan ding of the honour ab le member. Per haps, I should refer the que stion to his collegue who I am sure will understand it, the Honour able Min ister of Muni ci pal Affairs.

Can he give us an assuranc e tha t assessments bei ng processed in Mani toba are pro cessed on the trad itional measurement basis; tha t is, of feet, yards, acres and so on, rather than in the metric system whic h some of the Civil Service at Ottawa and some of the Civil Service, very few in Man itoba, were wont to im pose upon an unwilling public in this provi nce? MR. SPE AKER: The Honour able Min ister of Munic i pal Affairs. 6eHON. A. ADAM: M. le president, je ne peux pas donner cette assuranc e a ce moment. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Memb er for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, the Min ister of Mun ic ipal Affa ir s has just proceeded to demons trate tha t he has neither control of either one of the official lan guages in this cou ntry. I, Mr. Speaker, have a question to the Min ister of Agricultur e. In vie w of the answer given by the Min is ter of Natu ral Resources somewhat contradic tory to some of the com ments we heard during the Min ister of Agricultur e's Estima tes, Mr. Speaker, could the Mini s ter of Agricultur e clarif y the governme nt's polic y on the ongoing sale polic y of lon g-term lease agricultur al lands to tho se lea seholde rs? Is he, Mr.

Speaker, cha nging the pol icy now, so tha t it is just th ose people who are in the present position of req uests or have alr eady had their appl ications in pla ce, are th ose the only one s that are bei ng sold? Or, Mr. Speaker, is he con tinuing tha t polic y to accept new appl ications, as we were in our govern ment ti me? 2987 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING : Mr.

Speaker, the honour able members kno w, because this concern was ar ticula ted during the course of, not onl y my col leag ue, the Mini s ter of Agricultur e's Estima tes, but also during the cou rse of my Es tima tes, tha t th ere was a le gitima te con cern on the par t of this government for wha t seemed to be the whol esale sale of vast qua ntit ies of Crown land to the point wh ere some applic ants were seek ing five and six square miles of Crown land in one singl e appl ica tion and we ha d a right and we ha d a duty to review thi s. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I will ha ve to ask the same Min ister if he is aware tha t th ose same large amou nts of land were given to tho se farmers by an NOP Gove rnmen t previous to our term in office? It wasn't us, Mr. Speaker, who gave tho se parcels of land to those farmers. It was he and hi s NOP philo sophy. Mr. Speaker, I have a further question to the Mini s ter. Would the Min ister of Agricultur e, because the Mi nister of Agricul ture for his information, Mr.

Speaker, is in char ge of agricu ltural Cr own leases, is he carry ing on the pol icy of leasi ng land on lon g-term leases and giving the farmers the option of buying tha t prop erty or prior to 19 77, as was our polic y, do they have the option of now purchasing that land? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mini ster

of Agricultur e. HON. B. URUS KI: Mr. Speaker. the que stion was qui te cle arly articula ted by the Min ister of Natu ral Resources. We are conti nuing to follow the pol icy tha t the y did not change in terms of allo wi ng farmers to have lon g-term leases of Crown land. That pol icy was never chan ged. It was institut ed in the 70s, wher e it was contin ued, Mr. Speaker. The pol icy of sales is bei ng reviewed and has been clearly articula ted by the Min ister of Natu ral Resources. Th ere were sales made , Mr.

Speaker, when the Min ister of Natural Resources indic ated that ther e were four, five and six square miles. The re were, in plain Engli sh, 20 quarters and close to 30 quarters of land sold to in dividual oper ators, Mr. Speaker. Tho se lands may have been either on lon g-te rm or on short-term lease by certain in dividuals but, Mr. Speaker, that is one of the reasons why we are reviewi ng that very kin d of pol icy.

One of the reasons as wel l, so th ere would not be in fact just a qui ck rollover of the sale of Crown land s, was to prevent some speculation that may happen in terms of people who wanted to and were able to acquir e massive parcels of land. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, to the Mini ster of Agricultur e, is he not aware of the fact that the only way tha t a farmer could purchase the agricul tural Cr own land s was to have ha d a lon g-term lif etime lease on that property prior to June of 19 77, that a short-term lease did not give tha t farmer the option to buy that land? Mr.

Speaker, would he cl arify for the farm com muni ty and tell them if the y now have the option to buy land from a lon g-term lease position that they are now in? HON. B. UR US KI: Mr. Speaker, the Hono urable Memb er for Arthur just made the very point why th ere is a review. The date of 19 77 was an arbitr ary date in terms of the length of time that someone could have leased Crown land . That date was not subject to be moved up in terms of other people who have leased land and may have an oppo rtunity to purchase land as a follow -up, as the years go by.

Tha t is one of the very reasons why the review is being cond ucted, Mr. Speaker, because of some of th ose pol icy positio ns. When a pol icy decision is made, ther e will be an annou ncement made upon the conclusion of the review. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my que stion is for the Mi ni ster of Agricu ltu re.

Is the Mi nister of Agricu ltur e then cont empla ti ng simple ext ension of the sale pro gram to people who have leased land sin ce 19 77, tha t date bei ng selected, of course. in order to avoid the ch arge by the Op positi on that we were sel ling land to people tha t had leased it under our governme nt? Is one of the things he's looking at the possibili ty of simply ext ending tha t date? HON. B. UR USKI : Mr. Speaker, those kind s of ques tions will ha ve to be looked at.

To tell you as wel l, Mr. 3 June, 19 82 Speaker, th ere are a whole host of issues that are involved in terms of whether or not the re will be specu lation in terms of resale of that Crown land in the way the ap praisals were carried out. Th ere's a whole host of areas tha t have to be loo ked at, Mr. Speaker, in the polic y review. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, to the Minis ter of Agricultur e. has the Min ister of Agricu ltur e placed any limit on the amount of land tha t can be leased by any one person? HON. B. UR USKI : Mr.

Speaker, the member well kno ws tha t the criteria deal ing with lea sing of land is on the basis of need. Tha t review is made and deter mined when land is put up for lease. There is an appeal process in place and applic ants who feel tha t the y have been not well lo oked after. they ha ve the oppor tuni ty to appeal the decision tha t was made by the depar tment in terms of the lea sing of Crown land. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, to the Mi nister of Agricu ltur e, ha s he pl aced a limit on the amoun t of land tha t might be leased by any one person? HON. B. URUSK I: Mr.

Speaker, the pol icy tha t is in pla ce and has been in place is conti nuing; that land is leased on the basis of needs in terms of the described need of tha t farmer, th ose in di viduals who are lea sing the Crown land. 2988 MR. A. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I know tha t it is the Min ister's right not to answer a que sti on, but it seems to me to be a rather str aig htforward simple question. Has the Mi ni ster pla ced a limi t on the amount of land that any one person may lease? HON. B. UR USKI : Mr. Speaker, I will repeat my answer.

The criteria that is in place, has been in place and hasn' t been chang ed , is tha t the le asing of land is determined on the basis of a point system tha t has been in place and has been put in to place on the basis of need. If the Honour able Memb er for Turtle Moun tain can' t understand that, because I do not make the decision as to how many parcels of land one indiv id ual can have, it goes thr ough the department in terms of the appl ication and it goes through an appeal mechanism in terms of if th ere is a disp ute on whether the land is allo cated or not. MR. B.

RANSOM: Sinc e the Mi nister clearly ha s not placed a limi t on the amount of land that any one farmer may lease. would the Mini ster agree that a farmer requiring a cer tai n amount of land for a viable operati on, req uiring, say, four sections of land on a leased basis to ha ve a viable operation. would tha t farmer still not req uir e the same four sections on an ownersh ip basis? HON. B. URUSK I: Many of tho se kin ds of dete rmi na tions . Mr. Speaker, wou ld have to be made on the amount of the land tha t was available , the degree tha t the land is developed.

Th ere are many questions the member poses that are with in his very question, Mr. Speaker. The deg ree of the devel opment abi li ty of tha t Crown land, the type of land in qu estion, the use of

Thursday, 3 June, 19 82 that land, al l those kin ds of questions would have to be exami ned before a clear answer could be given. If the honour able member has a specific in stance tha t he is ta lking about, let him raise it, Mr. Speaker. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, does the Min ister of Agricul ture belie ve tha t private ownersh ip of farmland is the best way for farmer s to operate in this provinc e? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I wish I would have had the state ment that was given to me by the Mani toba Farm Bureau and I will bring it in to the Ho use.

The Provi nce of Mani toba, the NOP Go vern ment of Manitoba, throu gh its pol ici es in agricul ture, in Crown land, in retention of the Crow rate, is there to support the family farm and the family farm is an owner operated type of farming opera tion, Mr. Speaker. In case the Leader of the Op position or the Member for Arthur and some of his col leagues who ha ve attemp ted to put tho se ki nds of remarks out of context in rural news releases, let them forget that, Mr. Speaker, in terms of what our bel iefs are and the very low way that they have acted in this Legisla ture. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, can the Min ister advise the House when he will have comple ted his review of the policy rela ting to the sale of Cr own land s? In vie w of the fact tha t he ack nowled ges now that private ownersh ip is the preferred way for a family farm to be held, when will he comple te tha t review and be able to confirm to the people th at in fact the sale program will con tinue and be expande d? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honour able member well kn ows tha t the decision is not entir ely mine. It is a govern mental decision and when that decision is made, there will be a public annou ncement. As well, Mr.

Speaker , the honour able member leaves the impression in hi s que stion tha t all Cr own lands are up for sale. The y were not up for sale when they were in office. The y tur ned down a good portion and rig htly so, Mr. Speaker, and we agree with tha t, but tha t is one of the bases tha t we want to review in terms of ho w th ose sales were conduc ted, which lands were left out of the sale pol icy, whic h lands were al lo wed and many of tho se other aspects are being reviewed at the present time. When tha t review is comple te, Mr. Speaker, an announc ement will be made. MR. SPEAKER: Or der please.

The time for question period has ex pired. ORDE RS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, would you please call Second MR . SPEAKER: Or der pl ease. The Honour able Member for Arthur ha s a point of order? MR. J. DO WNEY: On a point of order or a point of privil ege, Mr. Speaker, I bel ieve in his answer to the Memb er for Turtle Mountai n, the Minis ter of Agricul ture referred to the Memb er for Arthur as putting out a press release in a lo cal paper deg rading him (Int erject io n)- no, the Memb er for Arthur . He said "Arth ur," Mr.

Speaker, tha t I put out some kind of a press release out and he accused the Opp osition, and I felt it was me tha t he was accusing of deg rading or some kind of tactic s in this Ho use tha t were not of a proper cond uct. Mr. Speaker, I would ask for an apol ogy from the Min ister of Agricu ltur e for those state ments and tho se accusatio ns. HON. B. UR USKI: Mr. Speaker, to tha t same point of order, I was speaking to the Memb er for Turtle Moun tai n.

If I in advertently used the Memb er for Arthur , I apolog ize to him for that, but it was to the Memb er for Turtle Moun ta in as well as to the Memb er for Pem bi na. Mr. Speaker, I will check the record. He ma y ha ve been one of them as wel l, but I will ch eck the record on that. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Govern ment House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, would you please call the Seco nd Read ings on Bill s No. 38, 39, 40 and 41? SECOND READINGS - GOV ERNMENT BIL LS BILL NO. 38 - THE VACATI ONS WITH PAY ACT 2989 HON. V. SCHROEDER presented Bill No. 38,

an Act to Amend The Vaca tions with Pay Act for Second Readi ng. MOTION presented. MR. SPEA KER: The Honour able Min ister. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker , at the present time, the vaca tions with pay benefits provi ded by this Act do not apply to any person employed in dome stic service in a private home. In our vie w, domestic workers, partic ula rly tho se who are employed on a regular or full -ti me basis, should be entitle d to the same benefits as other emplo yees.

For too long, governments have been denyi ng benefits to the se workers on the ground s tha t there were too many ad min istrative and enforcement di fficul tie s in volved. We recognize that there may be some difficul ties of this nature, but we are also confid ent that these can be overcome. Conseq uently, it is being proposed tha t the Act be made applic able to domestic workers in private family ho mes who are employed for more than 24 hour s in a week.

Do mestic workers in family ho mes who are paid by a member of the family and who work 24 hour s or less in a week would con tinu e to be exclude d from the appl ica tion of the Act. However, cons idera tion may be given to in cluding them or some of them at a later date. I consider this to be progressive legislation which takes cognizance of a group or class of workers tha t has been largely ignor ed and dep rived of the benef its and prote ctions of the law for too long. I ther efore commend the bill for appr oval by

this Assembly . MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERC IER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honour able Memb er for Fort Ga rry, tha t debate be adjo urned. MOTION presented and carried. Bill NO . 39 THE DEP ARTM ENT OF LABOUR ACT HON. V. SCHROEDER presented Bill No. 39,

an Act to amend The Department of Labou r Act for Seco nd Reading. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Labour. HON. V. SCH ROEDER: Mr. Speaker, existi ng provi sions under this Act gene rally stipu late tha t a person appoi nted as an in spector in the Depar tment of Labour is not competent or compellable to give tes timony in any civil cause or proceed ing with regard to hi s activit ies in carr ying out hi s dutie s.

As well, an inspector may not give testimony in a civil proceeding as an expert witne ss with regard to matters of whic h he is req uired to have kn owledge for the proper dis cha rge of his duties. As I vie w it, the main advantage of or rationale for the se provisions is to ensur e that ins pectors do not spend excessive amou nts of time in and around cour trooms in respect of matters rela ting to civil proceed ings and th ereby not have sufficient time to effect ively and properly di scharge their other dutie s. On a the o retical basis, such a vie w may have some valid ity.

In pract ice, however , it is dou btful tha t excessive periods of time would be spent giving testi mony in civil causes and proceed in gs. Persons in the Fir e Commissioner 's Office, who are responsible for in vesti gating the causes of fi re, may be requir ed to spend some additional time on civil proceed in gs, but I can see nothing wrong with this and feel confident in tha t it can be handl ed with out having a negative effect on the di scharge of an ins pec tor's other regular dutie s.

Should experienc e in dic ate tha t consi derable periods of time are bei ng devoted to giving testi mony in civil proceed in gs, consi derat ion would of cou rse be given to emplo yi ng further staff. With regard to Employment Standards Officers, Boiler In spectors and other in spectors, th ere wou ld seldom be reason for them to be calle d to give testim ony in civil causes or proceed in gs. Co nseq uently, it is being pr oposed tha t the provisions in the Act making inspectors nonc ompellable and noncomp etent to give testim ony in civil proceed in gs be repealed.

As well , it is a common and desirable practice to exempt public offi ciRls from liabi li ty in the performa nce of their offi cial duties. Th erefo re, it is being proposed tha t there be a new provision in the Act sti pulating tha t an in spector is not personally liabl e for any loss or dam age suffered by any person by reason of any thing done by the in spector in good faith and without neg Ii- genc e in the exercise of his powers and duties.

Lastly, it is being proposed tha t the defi nition of the term "in spector" be updated so as to take into acco unt new practices in appointing persons to admini ster and enforce the laws and regulations for whic h the department is responsible. At one time, all persons appo inted to the in spection staff were clearly appoi nted as in spectors or as a ch ief in spector. While many continued to be so appoi nted, others are now appoi nted as officers or dir ectors. The main purpose of the amend ment is to ensure tha t these latter appoi ntees are deemed to be ins pectors for the pur poses of this Act.

In conclusion, the amendm ents being proposed in this bill should make in spector s more acce ssible and responsive to the needs of the public and would ther e fore be in the public in terest. Cons equently, I com mend this bill for the approval of the Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honour able Memb er for Stu rgeon Creek, tha t debate be adjo urned. MOTION presented and carried. Bill NO. 40 2990 THE LAB.OUR RE LATI ONS ACT HON. V. SCHROEDER presented Bill No. 40, The Labour Relations Act, for Second Rea ding.

MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Labour. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to in trod uce Bill No. 40, which is

an Act to amend The Labour Re lations Act. The amendmen ts proposed in the bill are in tended mainl y to meet conc erns exp ressed about the frequent failur e of parties to con clud e a col lective agreement followi ng certification, either because of the absence of good faith barga in ing or for some other reason. As wel l, the amend ments are ai med at addr essing concerns exp ressed about the absence of provisions in the Act tha t wou ld estab li sh some deg ree of stabili ty dur ing the period when negotiations normally take place to renew or revise a colle ctive agreement.

Furthermore, que stions have been raised ab out the Mani toba Labour Board not having sufficient remedia l powers to deal effectively and adeq uately with unfair labour practice al lega tio ns. The amend ments set out in this bill add ress these general concerns in the fol lowing manne r. Fir st, the bill provides for what is commonly referred to as fir st colle ctive agreement arbr itra tion. The main objective of in trod ucing this concept is to provide a deterrent agai nst practices which prevent an employer and a newly certified bargai ning agent from enteri ng in to a fi rst col lective agreement.

These practices may in volve failing to bargain in good faith or simply fai ling to make every reasonable effort to conclude a col lec tiv e agreement. I would empha size that the new proced ure is not intended to replace free col lective

Thursday, 3 June , 19 82 bargai ning and will not be used for tha t purpose. It will be used to addr ess situations wh ere a party fails or refuses to engage in meani ngful colle ctive bar gaining or wher e the parties reach an impasse in their negotia tions and find tha t the y are unable to take further positive steps to conclude a colle ctive agreement. The new proced ure is in tended to serve mainly as a deter rent and is expected to be used only as a measure of last resort in the resolution of dis putes and impa sses in negotia tions.

In more specific terms, the amend ments stipu late that in cases wh ere a newly certified bargaining agent and an employer fail to conclude a col lective agree ment within th ree to six months after the date of certi fic ation, either party may request the Min ister to refer the matter to the Man itoba Labour Board for settle ment. Upon rece iving such a request, the Min ister will have the matter reviewed or in vestigated and will have the discretion of referring or not referri ng the di spute to the Labour Board.

It is int ende d tha t the Min ister will refer to the board only cases wh ere it appears that the parties have not been en gaged in good faith bar gaining or wh ere the parties have not made every reasonable effort to conclude a col lective agreement or wh ere negotia tions have brok en down and it appears without fault of either party nece ssarily tha t the in volvement of the Labour Board may be of some assistance.

On ce the board is di rected to inquir e in to the matter of the negotiations between the parties, the board will also have discretion as to whe the r or not to impose a fir st col lective agreement. It may be consi dered that the board would have thr ee choic es. Fir st, it could ini tiall y attempt to media te the dispute and, if successful, it would makethe impo sition of a col lective agreement unnecessary. Seco nd, it cou ld settle the terms and conditions of the fi rst agreement wh ere media tion efforts faile d or wh ere, in the circu mstances, it consi dered it advisable to do so.

Th ird, after inquir ing into the matter, the board could in form the Min ister and the parties tha t it did not deem it advisable to settle the terms and conditions of the first agreement. This last cou rse of action might be taken where the parties have reached agreement on their own or with the assista nce of the Department's Concil iation Services or wh ere the Boar d was of the view tha t an agr eement would be reached.

In cases wh ere the Min ister di rects the Board to inquir e in to a dis pute, the Board would have 60 days in which to eithe r settle th e first agreement or to advise the Min ister and the parties tha t it does not deem it advisable to impose an agree ment. As wel l, in cases where the Board in di cates that it will settle the terms and conditions of a fi rst agree ment and a strike or lo ckout was in progress, the parties would be requir ed to cease the strik e or lockout, as the case may be, and the emplo yer would be req uired to reins tate the emplo yees in their employment.

The se provisions appear desirable since the conti nuation of a work stoppage would be pointless whe re an agre ement was soon to be imposed in any event and since reins tate ment would be req uired after the agree ment was settled. It would also appear desirable to esta blish some criteria and basic proced ures for the Boar d to apply or follow in settling the terms and conditions of a fi rst agreement.

Conseq uently, the proposed amend ments provide tha t the Board must accept any terms and conditions agreed to in writing by the parties; tha t the Board must give the parties an opportun ity to make representa tions; tha t the Boar d may take in to account the extent to whic h the parties have bargai ned in good faith and tha t the Boar d may take in to acco unt work ing condi tions negotia ted in other col lective agreements involv ing employees perfor ming similar work in simil ar cir cumstances.

In cases wh ere a coll ective agreement is settled by the Board, tha t agreement would remai n in force for a period of one year. This would give the parties an opportun ity to famil iariz e thems elves with each other and to become accustomed to organizing their work ing relationships in accordance with the terms of a colle ctive agreement . After the expir y of the one year term, the parties would be on their own and would have to rely on their own efforts to dete rmin e the terms and conditions under which they may wish to con tinu e thei r relationship.

I might say tha t during tha t one year period, I would expect tha t the Concil ia tion Services of the Depar tment wou ld be made freely available to the parties and in deed the y wou ld be made ava ilable to th ose parties after the expir y of the fi rst agreement in order to encour age the parties to enter into a second agreement. Tho se basically are the proposed provisions relat ing to the settlement of fir st colle ctive agreements.

It is our ho pe tha t the presence of the se provisions and the law will serve as an effec tiv e deterrent agai nst bad faith bargai ning and thereby make the actual use of the provisions an in freq uent occu rrence. This has been the experience of the other jurisdictions, Que bec, Br itish Columbia and Canada , which cur rently make use of simil ar legislation. Another area of concern relates to the absence of provisions in the Act which clearly req uire the parties to col lective bargai ning to negotia te in good faith.

The refore, amend ments provide tha t the parties must do so, not only in cases of negotia tions for a fir st agreement, but also in cases wh ere the parties are negotia ting to revise a colle ctive agreement. Other related amendm ents are intended to cla rify and en hanc e the powers of the Labour Board in adjud ica t ing al legations of bargai ning in bad faith. 2991 As is now the case, the Min ister will continu e to have the author ity to refer to the Board a complain t of bad faith bargaining or a failur e to make every reasonable effort to conclude a colle ctive agreement.

Ho wever, proposed amend ments will give the Board a broader range of powers and opti ons to exercise in deal ing with complai nts referred to it. For exam ple, the Board will be clearly in power to issue a Cease and Desist Or der or to make a more positiv e order sti pulati ng what a party must to do rectify a sit uati on. As well, a contrav ention of the good faith bargainin g req uir e ments will be treated as an unfair labour pract ice and the Board will be empowered to exercise the same powers as it does in unfair labour practice cases.

While on the subject of unfai r labour practices, I migh t also in dic ate tha t a further area of change relates to the powers of the Boar d in dealing with such cases. Co ncerns have been exp ressed tha t the Board has been unable to order appropria te effective reme di es in some cases because of its lim ited powers. We are proposing tha t provi sions rela ting to the Board's

remedial powers be updated and enhanc ed. The max imum amoun t tha t may be awarded to a person as compensa tion for an inf ri ngement of that person's rig hts would be in creased from $500 to $2,0 00.00. The Boar d would have the autho rity to order the paymen t of such an amoun t to a union as well as to an emplo yee or to an employer. Further, the Board would have the power to order the payment of compensation, not only for loss of in come resulting from an unfair labou r practice, but also for los s of bene fits or any other loss such as loss of opportun ity.

In some cases, inc ome loss represents only a part of the total loss occa sione d by an unfair practice, but to date, the Board ha s only been able to order com pensation for loss of in come and, to some extent, for in fring ement of rig hts. Another provision will auth orize the Board to make not only a Cease and Desist Or der, but also a more positive order dir ecting what a party must do to rectify a situa ti on.

Fi nally, a number of proposed amendm ents are in tended to establish a period of stabili ty during the term of an imposed first coll ective agreement and during the tim e frame when negotiations are normally proceed ing to revise a col lective agreement. Th ere fore, a new prov ision would sti pulate tha t it wou ld be an unfai r labour pract ic e for an employer to uni later ally change or alter terms and conditions of emplo y ment during the six months immedia tely follo wing the termina tion date of a col lective agreement.

This pro hi bition, however, would not apply wh ere a strike or lockout ha s occu rred or where work ing conditions are changed in accordance with the terms of a newly conc l uded coll ective agreement. The se provisions, we believe, will di scou rage the use of tactics to th wart col lective bargai ning and will allow the parties to con centr ate their full efforts on negotia tions for a new agree ment. Other chan ges, also ai med at establishing a period of stabilit y, prohi bit certifica tion and decer tifi cation applic ations during the term of a fir st col lective agreement settled by the Board .

Without such a res tri cti on, applic ations of this kind could be made dur ing the seventh, eig hth or nin th month during the term of the agreement. In our view, allowing this would be to in vite di sruption and would be detri mental to foster ing improved labou r-man agemen t relations in wha t might al ready be a tense situa tion. The restrictions wou ld at least al low for a more sufficient period of time for the parties to learn to li ve with each other under the terms of a col lective agreement.

I belie ve tha t the chan ges I have just outl ined will improve and make more effective the proced ures for admini stering the Act and will in the long run contrib ute to more harmonious labour -man agement relations. I, th erefore, commend this bill for approval by this Assembly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for St. Norb ert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, before ad journing deba te on this bill, I have a question and I wonde r if the Mini ster could explain why there are retroactive pro visions in this bill? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Labou r. 3 June, 19 82 HON. V.

SCHROEDER: The provisions are set up in such a way tha t for any disputes currently ongoi ng, the Act will clearly apply. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, secon ded by the Ho nour able Memb er for Turtle Mountain tha t debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. IN TRO DU CTION OF GU ESTS MR. SPEAKER: May I in terru pt the proce edings for just one moment to di rect the atte ntion of honour able members to the loge on my left wher e we have with us the Honour able George Macl eod, who is the Mini ster of Tourism and Renewable Re sou rces for Saskatchewan.

On behalf of all the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. SECOND READING - GO VERN MENT BI LLS BILL NO. 41 -T HE EMP LOYMENT STAN DARDS ACT HON V. SCHROEDER presented Bill No. 41 ,

an Act to amend The Employment Standards Act, for Seco nd Read ing. MOTION presenteq. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Min ister. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The main purpose of the propo sed amend ments are to ext end the appl icati on of the Act and its benefits to persons emplo yed as domestic workers in private famil y ho mes, to clarif y the appl ica tion of the provi sions in the Act relating to group ter mination of emplo yment and to en hanc e the regulation- making powers of the Li eutena nt-Gover nor-in-Council so as to be able to make regulations establishing special or variable standards for cla sses of employees whose traditional patterns of work do not read ily lend them selv es to the appli cabil ity of the more gen eral standards. 2992 Mr.

Speaker, at the present time , Sect ion 35 (1) gen erally req ui res an emplo yer to give an extended perio d of notic e of te rmina tion of employmen t in cases wh ere he term ina tes the emplo yment of 50 or more employees employed by him within a particular establish ment. The wording used in this

section ha s created some admin istrative difficul ties as well as some in terpretive problem s for emplo yers and emplo yees, particularl y where associa ted operations are under a common contr ol or dir ection but geogra phically separated. The refore, amend ments are be ing proposed to del ete all references to a "parti cular indu strial establish ment." This shoul d elimi nate any uncert ain tie s created by the present language of the section. Mr. Speaker, I wou ld li ke also to ind icate that the amendm ents making the Act applic able to certain dome stic workers will beco me effective November 1, 19 82.

I migh t add tha t th ere are several other Acts being amended in order to entitle do mestic workers to

Thursday, 3 June , 19 82 the protect ion of all the Acts that other workers in this province are entitle d to. Our in tent in waiti ng un til November of 19 82 is to al lo w sufficient time for householder s who employ do mestics to beco me famil iar with the no rmal duties and responsibil it ies of an employer. It would al low for tim e to develop a regulation that would be appl icable to dome stic workers and to take in to acco unt the vie ws and con cerns of in terested parties in the cour se of developing that regulation.

In our vie w, acti on to extend the benefits of Labour Sta ndar ds laws to dome stic workers is long overdue. These amend ments represent a sign ificant step in that dir ection and I commend them to thi s Assembly for approval. MR. SPEA KER: The Hono urable Member for St. No rbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move. seco nded by the Honour able Memb er for Tuxedo, tha t deba te be adjou rned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEA KER: The Honour ab le Govern ment Ho use Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker. finally, would you call for Second Read in g, Bill No . 29?

BILL NO. 29 - THE CIVIL SERVICE SUPERANNUA TI ON ACT HON. V. SCHROEDER presented Bill No. 29,

an Act to amend The Civil Service Superann uation Act. for Second Read ing. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKE R: The Hono urable Min ister. HON. V. SCHROEDER: The latest trienn ial eva lua tion of the Civil Service Superann uation Fund was made as at December 31, 19 80. It was determ in ed tha t the fund ha d an overa ll surplus of $7 milli on. Of that amount, $3.7 mill ion was generated by hi gher than expected interest earn ings on the portion of the assets set aside to fi nanc e pensions currently being paid.

Several meetings were held between members of the Emplo yees Li ai son Commit tee and emplo yer repre sentatives and it was agreed by both emplo yee and employer representatives tha t this $3.7 mil lion surplus would be used to improve pensions of approxi mately 3,800 retired public servants. This bill auth orizes the tran sfer of this surplus in to the Pension Adjustment Account over a th ree-year period making it possible to provide larger pensions to eligi ble pension ers in 19 82. 19 83 and 19 84.

It is antici pated tha t this will in crease pensions by approx imately 2 percent to 2.4 percent for each of the th ree years commen cing Jul y 1, 19 82. Wh en the Pension Adjustment Account was estab li shed in 19 77, the objective was to provide incr eases in pension of approxi mately two-thir ds of the yearly CPI. This ha s not been possible in the last few years because of larger than expe cted incr eases in the CPI. These addi tional pension in creases will be paid again in 19 82, 19 83 and 19 84.

The re will be no additional in creases beyond 19 84 unless it is decide d to all ocate additiona l amou nts to the Pension Adjustment Account. This will make it possible to evaluate both the financial condition of the fund after the 19 83 eva luation and the need to provide add itional incr eases in pension. I wish to commend the members of the Emplo yees Liais on Commit tee for the manner in which the y have co-operated with emplo yer representatives in reach ing a decision on this improvement for pension ers.

I under stand that discussions are con tinuing on mat ters of mutual conc erns and I'm sure that the y will do so in the same spirit of co-operat ion and under stand ing. I commend this bill to the Assembl y. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Memb er for St. Norb ert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move. seco nded by the Honour able Memb er for Stur geon Creek, tha t debate be adjour ned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honour able Govern ment Ho use Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, th ere is an agree ment to dis pense with Priv ate Members' Hour today.

I'll be shor tly moving tha t the Ho use resolve itself in to Supply. It 's my understanding tha t there will be con tinuing in the Ho use the consider ation of the Esti mates of the Mini ster of En ergy and Mi nes and in Committee the consid eration of the Estima tes rela ting to In terest Rate Relief. 2993 It is also my understand ing that by agreement. the Estima tes of the Executiv e Council will be consider ed in Commi ttee this evening. On tha t basis and by agreement. I would move, seconde d by the Min ister of He alth, tha t Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself in to a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty and tha t the Ho use do now adjo urn. MOTION presented. MATTER OF GRI EVANCE MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for El mwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter of grievance concern ing the condition of some 5,000 to 7,000 Man itoba home own ers who are adversely affected by the fact that they in stalle d urea formaldehyde foam in their home s and now find the mselves in a very di ffi cult eco nomic and medi cal condi tion.

I want to, in particu lar. condemn the Fed eral Gov ern ment for making two major mistakes: fi rst of all, allowing or approving the in stallation of this material in to some 80,000 ho mes across Cana da and now coming up with a remedial program which doesn't solve the problem .

Mr. Speaker. the Federal Govern ment, I think, is somewha t glib in regard to the que stion of who is responsible for this trag ic state of affa irs. The y want to argue tha t the y have not approved the in stallation of such material, but tha t they simpl y auth orized it. Mr. Speaker. I don' t make any di sti nction. I belie ve tha t the Federal Government allo wed, encou raged and approved the use of tha t material in Canadian home s.

The government, some years before. did ad mirably well when the y took some drugs calle d thalidom ide, put them through a whole serie s of tests and then fou nd that the y were drugs tha t were somewha t dan gerous and the y banned this particular substance in Canada, wh ereas the Americans all owed it. In this particular instance, the y obviously did no testing and now want to consider this as someth ing for which they are not responsible. Mr.

Speaker, I say tha t Ottawa is responsible for this and is now responsible for provid ing an acceptable solution to a dil emma tha t thou sands of Man itobans find themselv es in and that tens of thousands of Canadi ans find themselves in. Mr. Speaker. it may come as a surprise to some members of the Cham ber that the new proposed pro gram of the Federal Government does really not call for the removal of the se substances. The federal pro gram essentially wants to deal with the substance in place in the walls and cavities of the home s and to do certain things to make it "more accepta ble." Mr.

Speaker, this is a matter that I ha ve de alt with before or raised some questi ons on before. I see the former Min ister of Consumer Affairs sitting across the aisle and he will recall some que stions on this particu lar matter. He will reca ll that during his term in office, and dur ing the term of the Honour able Warner Jo r genson, tha t this matter was also di scussed in this House by myself and other members of the Assembly and tha t it has been a problem for the govern ment and tor the people of Mani toba for a number of years. Mr. Speaker.

I obt aine d the package tha t is being sent out by the Federal Go vern ment, pamphlets, in formation, sheets and brochu res on how to do this and do tha t. We kn ow tha t after allo wing the insula tion of some 80,000 or more ho mes, tha t the governme nt finally acted and banne d the substance and then, we also know tha t under CHIP, the y al lowed grants to ho meowner s for the in stall ation of the se materials to encou rage energy conser vation. One of the ir on ies now is tha t

whereas they pr o vid ed funds to in stall ur ea-formald ehyde foa m, they now do not provide funding to a homeowner to put in some substitute material. So the homeowner finds hi mself in a situation wh ere he got a grant to put in the wrong material and now when he wants to put in fi berg la ss or something else, he is not eligible for a so-ca ll ed second grant. I think this is a mistake and I think this is an area tha t the Federal Govern ment should look into.

The Federal Government also tel ls us that the se substances can come from other substances lik e cigar ette smoking, and then they give us some rat her shocking thi ngs tha t even plywood or particle board can result in some urea-form aldehy de gases and then the y try to get off the hook by saying tha t the y aut ho rized some 14 0 dif ferent in sulati ng materi als, less than 1 O of which were the formaldeh yde. Mr. Speaker, tha t is their problem. If they auth orized this wide range of materials without testing them, then th ey are in effect morally and legally responsible tor rectif ying this situati on.

They have put people into an impossible situation in regard to their health and in regard to the resale of their ho mes. Yet, they have the audacity to tel l us that they're under no obli gation to compe nsate consu mers. Tha t's a quote from one of their pamphle ts, but the y wish to bring about a satis factory and timely solution, and then the y talk about a $5,0 00 grant maxi mum which the y are willing to provide. 2994 Mr.

Speaker, Maclea n's Maga zine did a li ttle fol low up piece on this ongoing saga and it appeared a week or two ago on a page called Fol low -up under the head ing of, "A Falt ering Figh t Agai nst Foam In sula tion." It mentions, for example, tha t 15 ,000 Canadians have requested something called a dosi meter, which is a lit tle plastic tube contai ning a pel let tha t measures the level of formald ehyde in the air and if reside nts obtai n medic al state ments testif ying tha t the foam poses a health hazard , the y may qual ify for remed ial grants. Mr.

Speaker, I have seen some of the se li ttle dosimeters, as the y are apparently called, hanging in ho mes in my riding s and I want to empha size tha t alth ough some people are going along with the governme nt, tak ing these tests and then are con fronted with spending additional moni es which are refundable, another $1 00, $1 25, which the y then can go in for a deeper more ext ensive test. Altho ugh th ere ha s been this testing and ther e has been this program sin ce December, not a single person , accor ding to Maclean's, has qualif ied yet for the promised grants of up to $5,000.00.

So six months ha s ela psed and sev eral years have elapsed sin ce the problem was recog nized, and it looks lik e it's going to be a couple of years more before there is any real action in this regard. Mr. Speaker, the problem is, of cour se, tha t rat her than removing the se substances, wha t the y are going to basically recommend is some sort of proced ure of reducing or di luting the gases, either through ce iling or venti lation. Now, you kn ow, Mr. Speaker, just think about tha t.

Her e is a person sit ting in a home with all this formaldehyde insula tion in the walls and the gov ernment inspectors are going to come out and say, we're going to suggest one of the followi ng to you: we're going to seal it in; we're going to plug all the places where you plug lig hts into; we're going to look for cracks and so on; we're going to seal this stuff in so tha t the poison substances and the toxic fumes remain in your walls and don' t get in to the ho use. Boy, tha t's cert ainly go ing to al low a person to sleep soundly at nigh t, righ t? I mean, what are you going to do ?

You'r e going to hang up a picture some day, take a nail, you'r e going to be afraid of bang ing that int o the wall because of the fact tha t th ere migh t be a leak and this substance will start coming back into your hom e. Mr. Speaker, on the other hand, the y're going to lo ok at systems whereby wha t? You'r e going to drill more hole s in your wall or in your attic and blow this substance out or hope that it le aks out, or are you going to have your win dows open all summer and wi nter long?

Tho se are the two solutions proposed by the Fed eral Government, and in their bookle ts and their pam phlets, that's what they talk about: proper ventilation and seali ng. Last and least, and the y don' t like to talk

Thursday, 3 June, 19 82 about this, is the y talk about the removal of the substances. Mr. Speaker, I have spoken to people who li ve in these ho mes and I have spoken to people who have joi ned HUFFI, which is. I guess, the Home owners Agains t Urea-fo rmaldehyde Foam In sulati ons. They tell me and provide the follo wing ki nds of inf ormation tha t origi nally, in '78-79, for a 1, 000-square foot ho me, whic h is not a la rge home, this sort of proced ure cost about $1 ,000 to $1 ,200, wh ereas fi bregla ss might have cost ab out $600.00.

But then people, after the y went through this procedu re. you'll recal l, all these ho mes had a whole series of cir cle s or hole s around it where th ese plugs were cut in, the material was pumped in and then a plaster or a wooden plug was put in, so that you cou ld easily recog ni ze one of these ho mes and th ere are many hundr eds still around wher e people couldn't afford to do a proper patch-up job or a paint up job, etc.

So you have tho se that are still visi ble, but many people also went through the proced ure of fin ishing their ho mes and spent hundr eds of dol lars, if not thou sands, on the exteriors of their ho mes in addi tion to wha t they put and inv ested into the in stalla tion. Some put siding on, some put new stucc o on, some simply did a paint job. So wha t does it cost to remove this material from a home today? Wel l, the people in the HU FF! organ iza tion suggest that for a one -storey home, it costs between $6,000 and $9,500, but for a two-storey home, it can run from $1 2,0 00 to $20,000.00. Mr.

Speaker, there is no guarantee whatsoever that if a person has a two-storey home tha t the y will get a govern ment grant of $5,000 to pay a portion of the costs, because if the tests show that it's below a cer tai n percentage, then the people may not be eligi ble for any thing or for only a fraction of the full amount. So, Mr. Speaker, tha t is the problem: name ly, peo ple li ving there conc erned about this problem and also being faced with a plummeting rea l estate value . These people are really in a bind.

People who want to sell their ho mes are now con fronted with the situation of some real estate companies refusi ng to carry their ho mes and of many buyers refusing to purcha se tha t particular home, or if the y do agree to purcha se, it will have to be for a substan tially reduced amount. A stan dard rule of thumb in real estate today is that if you have a home with formal dehyde in sulati on, you take the ma rket value, then you take the cost of repla cing the material, whic h may run from $6,000 to $20,000, you subtract it and tha t is wha t the offer is for the owner of that particular home. Mr.

Speaker, tha t of cou rse is a poor situa tion, a di fficult sit uati on. There are basically thr ee problems here: one is the material problem; this material, which was in stalled with Federal Govern ment approval, shrink s, cracks, corrodes electrical wiring, etc .. har bors fungus and so on. When it shrinks as wel l, it opens up more cavitie s in the walls and consequently you have a situa tion wh ere your ho use, which may have been the ore tically 10 0 percent insula ted, may be 90 or 80 or 70 percent depending on the amount of shrink age. So ther e's a basic problem with the material.

Th ere is also the medical problem th at some peopl e are adversely affected by the foam. Mr. Speaker, I have ha d instan ces of this in m y riding. I'm sur e tha t other people in the Chamb er have had people in their 2995 riding contact them to say tha t the y belie ve the y are suffering health problems because of the foam. No w, some may say it's psychological. I'm not going to argue agai nst th at.

I'm not going to argue tha t in some in stances this isn' t true, but if you kn ow that you have a substance in the walls of your own home tha t is tox ic and it may cause health problems, this isn't going to give you any peace of mind and if you imagine tha t you ha ve various ail ment s as a result of th is, tha t wouldn 't be surprising at all. I'll just give you a couple of examples of wha t are probably real adverse effects. No w, one I si mply read from an advertisement, which might be some wha t suspect, but some lady, pre sumably a Winnip egger name d Mrs.

Marion Deane, presumably wrote this let ter to Fort Ga rry Home Im provements and said tha t she has now in stall ed a new system of ventilation and th erefore thi ngs are much better. So she 's sort of plugging this type of a solution, but here's wha t she says in her letter. She said, "Last wi nter and again in the fall of this year, I experien ced certai n health prob lems such as heavy headaches, dizz ine ss, extreme exha ustion, itching of the skin and eye ir rita tion. I bel ie ve I could act ually taste the formaldehy de and had dryness of the mouth and th roat. " Tha t's wha t that lady said.

In my riding, I have received a number of phone calls and letters. The one th at I'm most familiar with was a Mrs. Wanda Gu nderso n, and she had a ni ne month-old boy and her son ha s had pneumonia , con stant coughing and che st pai ns, which the mother bel ieves is a result of the foam insulation in the home. She has had her child in the hospital for tests and she has had her home tested and she is also conc erned about the fact tha t she has a home that basically has lit tle val ue on the real estate market. Mr. Speaker, some cou ples are th reatening to sue and some have ini tia ted legal action.

Th ere was a couple in St. Jame s, na med Donald and Joanne Lipp ens and ano the r cou ple, Stan and Cher yl Marco, who are also in itia ting legal actions agai nst the Federal Gover nment or the contr actor. Mr. Speaker, I also want to mention tha t people in Man itoba, in some in stances, are sick and tir ed of waiting around for some thing to happen, to have the se li ttle dosime ters hang ing in their house or to ha ve in spectors coming out. The y want the stuff out and the y are tak ing it out the mselves. The Free Press -(I nterject ion)- wel l, my col leag ue says, it's expen sive.

It is absolutely expensiv e to tear out walls, either from the outside or from the in side , to remove the materi al, to repla ster, to rebuild and repaint walls runs in to the thousands of dol lars, but some people aren't prepared to wait. The Free Press carried a story just a few days ago about a Kuhn famil y on Hull Avenue out in, I think, East l<ildonan or No rth Kildonan - well, maybe not. Anyway, this family refused to wait any longe r. The wife said that she was having a worsening bronchitis and they spent $600 in '77 to have the foam blown in.

No w, they are spending $8,000 of their own money to take it out. The y are also in a position wh ere, if the y don' t follow the rule s and procedu res of the Federal Govern ment's code, the y may not be eligi ble for any money at all. The same goes for any con tractor. If a con tractor just takes it out and doesn't follow the

guideli nes of removal as ind icated by the federal pro gram, the home owner may forfeit any portion or all of the $5,000 maximum grant. In the case of the Kuhn famil y, they took out the material wearing pollen masks and, accor ding the federal people, these pollen masks are not adeq uate protection for such removal -(I nterjec tion )- no, I never did. I say to the House Leader of the Co nservative Party, I never did study biology. History and english, politi cal scien ce, phi lo sophy, econom ics and I say to my friend from St.

Bon iface, the Pol itical Science I studie d and wha t is practiced in this Chamb er are two di fferent thi ngs. A MEMB ER: Wel l, the ory and practice al ways are. MR. R. DOERN: So, Mr. Speaker, I want to say in conclusion that the economic problem, which is the value of a home, and the health problem are com pletely related. They are two sides of the coin and if we solve one, we will solve the other. A solution is very clear and tha t is to remove the substance.

By remov ing the substance, we will in effect solve the health problem and by removing the substance and solving the health problem, we'll solve the real estate or the econ omic problem at the same ti me. Some of the levels tha t the govern ment has pro vided may be suitable on average. Maybe, if you aver age out 10 0 people, you get a certain level, but then ther e are people who are more sensi tive. If their level is lo wer than the other people, then the y are not bei ng properly dealt with under this government proposal. People's sensitiv ity varies.

So, when you set an objec tive standard, you ha ve the problem of in di vidual per sonal sensi tivit y and the HUFFI organ izat ion and other organ izati ons are complaining about that point. They are also saying tha t ther e are langu age barriers. Some people don' t understa nd all the deta ils and the fine print, tha t when you test in the summer it is a dif ferent ball game because of the fact tha t win dows are open and so on and the y are con cerned ab out people di squalif ying themselves. Mr. Speaker, the Ci ty of Wi nnip eg is examining this problem.

It is a serious problem for the municip al ities and for the City of Winnip eg in particu lar , because people are going to them and saying, lo ok, the real estate value of my ho use is $1 0,000 or $20,000 less than it says on this piece of paper. There are now ten cases before the Boar d of Revision, who are asking to ha ve their ho mes reassessed. This puts the city in a very di fficult spot.

If the y accept th ose ten cases, then the tho usands of people in the City of Winnip eg who have this material can come to the city and ask for reassessments and the city will lose thousands and thousands and tho usands, if not mill ions, of dol lars in taxes. So, Mr. Speaker, I think that the case has been made by many people. The case is bei ng argued in Ottawa.

It 's bei ng made by in dividual citizens, politicians, real estate people, doctors and so on and I think that it is time tha t the Federal Governme nt owned up to its responsi bili ty and came out with a program tha t will solve all of these health and econ omic problems. The Federal Government wants programs to stimulate the economy. Here is such a program. Well, Mr. Speaker, I can't help it if my honour able friends' backbench are not in ter ested in this problem. Maybe the y are ign orant of the problem.

Maybe the y don' t ha ve an ybody in their rid ing that is familiar with this problem, but I assure you tha t th ere are some of us who do and we in tend to fight for our constituents. Mr. Speaker, the Federal Government wants a pro gram to sti mulate the economy. The y want to sti mu late the cons truc tion industry. Here is such a pro gram. If the y undertake a ful l-fledged program to take thi s stuff out and th row it in the gar bage wh ere it belongs, it may cost as much as a billion dolla rs, a program which could be done over a couple of years period. The y cou ld train people to do this.

The y can sti mulate the construction industry. The y could save some money by buying material in bulk . The y can prio rize the ho mes, train the workers, provide the inf ormation and so on. Mr. Speaker, I just mention, in passing, that the cred it in stitutions of our cou ntry and the banks all ins ist tha t whe n mortgages are brought before them at this point in time tha t the people must sign something which ind ica tes that the re is no urea-fo rmaldehyde foam in their homes.

Tha t is a condition of get ting a mortgage, because if people try to get around that, it will cause seri ous problems for all concerned. So, it's a CMHC req uirement and it's a financing requir ement. 2996 Mr. Speaker, I think I have covered the material. I would say in brief conclusion tha t the Federal Gov ernment auth orized or approved the installation of this material . Let them now provide the program and the funding to rem9ve it. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER, J. Storie: The Honour able Memb er for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr . Speaker.

I ha dn 't in tended to speak today, but the Member for El mwood has stimulated me to put some though ts on the record , which are a colle ction of grievances ab out a varie ty of di fferent things that have been happ en ing in the Ho use during the current Session, one s tha t have been sti mulated by comments made by members on the oth er side, pri marily I suppose members of the backb ench on the other side, not members of the govern ment. As my colleague, the Memb er for Morris, calls them, the yip pers from the ba ckbench. They, Mr.

Dep uty Speaker, have shown a rat her strange attitude towards the truth and a rather strange attitude towards the proced ures of the Ho use and in fact wha t has gone on over the past number of years tha t many of us have sat in the Ho use together. In fact, I think that there is a major problem brewing on the other side of the House that occur s in the split between th ose who are in Cabi net and th ose who are in the backbench.

Th ose who have the power are cert ainly not sharing their thoughts and their inf orma tion with tho se in the backbench; nor tho se who have the experienc e are not sharing with tho se who are ine xperien ced and new because cert ainl y I don't think tha t we wou ld be subjected to the no nsense tha t is bei ng put acr oss by members of the bac kbench if some of their front bench members would just shar e a li ttle co-operatively with them of their inf ormation and experience, so that we would avoid having to li sten to all of the nonsense that goes on.

It is getting to be a li ttle redicul ous when members of the ba ckbench on the other side have to get up on

Thursday, 3 June, 19 82 grievances to tell their government tha t th ere is some thin g wrong. The Member for Elmw ood is onl y the second or thir d of a number of back benc hers on the other side who have used the grievance period or the grievance opportuni ty to get up and elabor ate on issues tha t they should be di scussing in Caucu s, that they should be gett in g some action from within their own party, but obviously there is a caste system developing with in the New Democr atic Go vernment and I am really conc erned about it. It appears to me. Mr.

Dep uty Speaker, tha t members on the other side who are in the backb ench are just patted on the head and asked to just step aside and let the boys with the power and the girls with the power take the lead role and just stay in the backgro und and maybe heckle a bit as time goes on. They are being treated like the prover bial mushroom, being kept in the dark and fed fertiliz er and asked to stand up and vote when the House Leader says it's ti me, like cannon fodder brought in for numbers but certa in ly not for any effect or any responsible action or any in tel lect.

Tha t is a shocking situa tion from a government and a party tha t preac he s equal ity and says to people tha t this is a shared responsibi li ty. I am really qu ite frankly upset about the whole situati on. You have the Member for El mwood gett ing up today and lamenting the situation tha t exists and rightfu lly so. I think it is a very sad situation that we have been put in to in this provi nce and in this cou ntry over urea formalde hyde foam in sulati on. The member says, we ha ven't spoken on it.

Ob vious ly, his attendanc e is somew hat lac king because he wasn't here when I questio ned his Mini ster a number of ti mes on wha t he was doing about the situation. The fact of the matter is we are upset abou t it too because his Min ister is doing nothin g. He's making pronounc ements to the effect that, wel l, it's a federal problem. I want to tell tha t Mini ster wha t we did when we were in govern ment. We went after the Federal Government and the Federal Government wasn't prepared to do one single thi ng.

At a Federal-Pro vincial Conf erence last August, and I will send the Min ister the min utes from the mee tin g because they may be in structive to him in to how to deal with the Federal Go vern ment, at a Federal-Pro vincial Meeting , we told the Federal Min is ter of Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs tha t this was the big gest si ngle problem tha t he ought to be deal ing with in his department today.

We spoke to him and told him that if he di dn' t deal with this problem, it was goin g to be of magnitude s and proportions that he wasn't goin g to be prepared to deal with if he di dn't take a lo ok at it and sit up and take notic e right then. He came to tha t meeti ng, the Federal Mini ster, not prepared to do a thi ng.

Between the urgi ngs of several provin ces, led I might in dic ate by Quebec and our selves primar il y, we left tha t meetin g with a commit ment on the part of the Federal Mini ster tha t he would consider compensa tion, tha t he wou ld bring in com pensation for th ose ho meowners who ha d been adve rsely affected by the in sta lla tion of urea formaldehyde foam. The y brought in a compensation plan and it did n't turn out to be adeq uate. Wha t is this Min ister who is now in char ge, who is now ta king over doi ng?

He is sitting back an d promoting good federal -provincial rela ti ons, co-operative federa lism, which means being the doorma t for the Federal Min ister, sitting back and let ting him stea mroller over top of him and doing nothi ng, absol utely nothi ng.

He sit s back and he does nothin g to tell the Federal Min ister tha t the compensa tion that has been offered is in adeq uate, th at th e solu tions tha t have been offered are absol ute nonsense and they won't help the people who are affected by the problem, that there are thousands of Mani tobans sit ting out th ere with ho mes that the y can't mortgage, tha t the y can' t sell.

These are their lif e's major in vest ments tha t the y can't do any thing with and hi s Mini s ter of Consumer and Corpo rate Affairs is sitti ng back and saying, wel l, we have got a wonder ful rela tionship with the Federal Govern ment. This cooperative feder alism is just marvel ous, isn't it? You kn ow, I'm pleased tha t the Memb er for El mwood has gotten up and iden tif ied the problem.

I wish he would ide ntify it in Cau cus so that he could get his Min ister to speak out and do somethin g for Man itoba ho meowners, instead of having to do it under this forum and under these cir cumstances in the Ho use, which I think is sha meful. Ob viousl y, it's ind icative of the breakdown in rel ations tha t's occurring between the Front Bench and the backbench on the other side. 2997 Mr. Speaker, tha t is only one of a wide vari ety and number of issues tha t are of major concern, tha t are a problem with the other side.

For in stance, members on the other side, most of the new members, who have been saying tha t the y are sho cked by the manner in which the Opp osition is deal in g with thi ngs. The y're sayi ng tha t the Op position is negative; the y're saying tha t the Opp osition is overly critical; tha t the Opp osi tion is unreasonable because of the demands we're placing on the government and they're sayi ng, "Is n't this ter ri ble." All of us new backbenc hers are sitting here and we're wanting to see good positive govern ment, and all you people can to do is critic ize.

I think tha t just shows the lack of tr ainin g and the lack of educ ation th ey've had from their own veterans on the other side because, obviously, the y haven't been instru cted to do the No. 1 thing tha t the y should, and th at is read a li ttle bit of Hans ard as to wha t went on in the last four years. When I spoke on the Budget, I gave them a few examp les of some of the atroc ious behavo ur that existed on the other side when the i r Party was in Opposi tion , of the negative doom and gloo m, critical Op position that they were, nothing positiv e, nothing constructiv e for four years.

No w, their new members are saying to us, "Why can' t you do someth ing positive? Why can' t you say someth ing that's constructive, and in structive? " Well, I tell you, the y ha ven't learned. I want to tel l yo u, we've got a lo ng way to go to catch up to the negative, critical aspect of opposition that your party had in Op position.

I think it wou ld be very instructive if some of the veterans were to take them aside and just clip out some of Ha nsard of the Member for Transcona, some of his tir ades about the state of health care ; how he used to talk about whether or not an ambu lanc e should have taken some unfortuna te person who was kill ed as a result of an accident; whether or not tha t ambula nce driver hand led the situation in the proper way; holdin g the Mini ster of Health responsible fort he manner in which the dr iver of the ambula nce responded to a cert ain situa tion; trucking out handi capped persons in to a press conference to tell their

story of wha t he said was a poor service bei ng offered by the Depar tment of Com munity Services - crass political actions tha t I don't think anybo dy on this side would ever stoop to, but the y used in Op position. They brought out people who were disadvantaged, who were hand ic apped and they used them. They used them just to further their own pol itic al goals. Now, tha t's the kind of positive opposition tha t your party gave us in Opp osition. I want to tell you about that.

I think now, in terms of wh at's happening on the Sh oal Lake issue, the issue of the developme nt of 300 cottage lots on Sh oal Lake, which happens to be the source of Winn ipeg's water supply. The y come out and say, after we've que stione d the Min ister as to what he's doing about it, if an yth ing, and the Min ister says tha t they are consi deri ng making a presentation to the Federal Environ mental Assessment and Re vie w Agenc ies stand on the matter. He says, the y are con sideri ng making a presenta tion.

Wel l, I can tell him tha t his department have been in formed about this matter and were wor king on and ha ve the tech ni cal data and the position ready to be presented to this Envir on mental Assessment and Review Agency for a year now and ha ve been waiting for tha t Assessment Review Agenc y to have its public heari ngs.

If that Min ister doesn't allo w them to make thei r vie ws kn own, their very serious con cerns known, about wha t such a cottage lot devel opment with 300 uncon trolled private sewage di sposal systems and all sorts of other thi ngs tha t will for all tim e in future ruin the water supply of the Ci ty of Winnip eg, if he doesn't al low them to make tha t presenta tion, he hasn' t heard criti cism yet. I can tell him that. Furtherm ore, Mr.

Speaker, we have the Min ister of the En vir on ment say he is not aware of the proposal to have a sewage lagoon located on the shores of Sh oal Lake adjacent to the Ci ty of Winnip eg's int ake for water supply. He says he's not aware of it. Well, I want to tell him tha t th ere were two grievan ces in the last Session about whether or not the Min ister of the Envi ronment was giving enough care and conc ern and att enti on to wha t was going on at Sh oal Lake. Two grievances, but now they are not sure they want to do any thing because the y may be har ming some of their political supporters by doing it.

That's one of the prob lems tha t we have. I kn ow that the Mini ster of Envir onment has met at least twice with the Ch ief of the Ind ian Band in that particu lar area, but he's not willing to stand up and tel l tha t In dian Band tha t wha t the y will do will be to ruin the Ci ty of Winnip eg's water supply if the y proceed with any aspects of their proposed devel opment. He is not willing to say it publ icly. He is sit ting back and sitti ng on the issue and I tel l you, Mr. Speaker, tha t's what I call lack of good government.

I tell you that's it's the job of this Op position to insur e that somebody is aware of the risks tha t will accrue to the Ci ty of Win ni peg's water supply if noth ing is done about it. I want to go a li ttle further. We had the Member for ln kster, the other day in commit tee, give us a ti rade about wha t happened at the Bluebir d Lodge in hi s constituency. So I got a hold of a front page press clipping of some of the statements tha t he made while he was running for the constituency of lnks ter last year and as a candi date was goi ng door to door on the 3 Ju ne, 1982 Blu ebir d Lodge.

Some of the things tha t he was doing, I say that the y were less than responsi ble, Mr. Speaker, and I'll tell you why . He was quo ted on the front page of the newspaper as sa ying tha t the rent ha d been raised beyond the agreed- upon 25 percent of in come in th2 t particular building, the Bluebir d Lodge. He was sayi ng tha t the people the re ha d been given an in crease that amounted to something lik e 69 percent of the in crease tha t the y had received in their OAS and GIS payment. Of cou rse, wha t he did n't say, Mr .

Speaker, was tha t the rents are adjusted onl y onc e a year, tha t the peo ple who are on OAS and GIS, which is the federal pension scheme, get their incr eases quar terly. So, they had received four incr eases before they got their fir st in crease in their rent and tha t in crease in their rent was in deed in accordance with the Federal Pro vincial Agreement between CMHC and MHR C th at called for their rents to be lim ited to 25 percent of their in come, an agreement that ha d been devel oped by the former New Democr atic Government, that was merely carrie d out by our govern ment.

Despite the follo wing throu gh of the guidel ines and the proce dures under tha t agreement, that the senior citizens who were in tha t Blu ebir d Lodge, even after they paid wha t he calle d an unreasonable, unconscionable incr ease, even after tha t, they were left with an in crease in di sposable in come of al most 40 percent. 2998 No w, he then proceeded in commit tee the other day to on ce again resutrect that old bone and to tell peo ple tha t the in creases over a few years of Ne w Demo cratic Govern ment had only been X percent, but that over four years of Co nservative Go vern ment, it ha d been a fantastic in crease.

Wha t he did n't say was, tha t's because thei r incr ease in pension in come, thr ough the very large in crease, thank heav ens, of the OAS and GIS tha t they ha ve been given over the past four years meant tha t the y were now able to pay more in rent. Is tha t an unreason able thing? Wha t he did n't tell them, as well, was that the se people are still bei ng subsid ized well over $10 0 a month for their rent by virtue of this agreement. They are getting their rent at a subsid ized rate and the y are benefit ing as a result of it, but he will do anyth ing for crass political purposes.

I will assume he is not ignor ant of the fact. I will assume tha t he is not in a position to do this for any thing other than just tak in g cheap shots at the former government. I can understand why that Memb er for ln kster was no lo nger in the emplo y of the Depar tment of Financ e, because if that is the way he used figur es when he was a member of the Civil Service, then tha t's not any person tha t I am sure any of us wou ld li ke to have in the Civil Service devel oping and utilizing figur es for the benefit of us in government. Mr.

Speaker, I suggest that the Memb er for ln kster, when he was campaigning and now, contin ues to atte mpt to trade on the fears of the sen ior cit izens and elderly that he represents, promoting a misunder standing of the formula that exis ts whereby their rent is fairly calcula ted, whereby they are asked only to pay a very certa in percentage of their inc ome and as tha t in come goes up, the y pay a li ttle more and the y want to pay a li ttle more I am sure becaus e the y want to pay their fair share.

They don' t want to be on a handout li ne, but this Memb er for lnk ster promotes misunder standing amon gst the elde rly people and a

Thursday, 3 June, 19 82 lot of uncerta in ty and, because he plays dan gerously with the truth, I think he promotes a distrust of the whole rela tionship that exis ts between them and their landlor d which is the provi ncially run Housing and Renewal Corpor ation. I think that is less than a responsible action. I want to kn ow, Mr. Speaker, if he is going to be changing that formula so that the Pro vincial Gov ern ment pays more of the cost of that housing, so tha t those peoples' in come limi tations are taken down and tha t less of their di sposable in come has to go to that. He has the power now.

I want to caution him tho ugh, if he does that, if he wanted to pay more from the provincial coffers that the Federal Gov ernment would probably nega te the agreement . Probably we would find that the overall cost to the taxpayer would be consi derably up, not just a li ttle up, but consi derably up in the milli ons of dol lars. But ther e were responsi ble people who negotia ted tha t original agreement - thank heavens, he had noth ing to do with it - and the re have been responsible people who have carried out that agreement ever since. Mr.

Speaker, I want to go to the other area tha t we have discussed in commit tee recently about the total lack of in formation that appears to exist in the gov ernment with respect to their Mortgage Int erest Rel ief Program as it affects small businesses in this pro vinc e.

We found out in commit tee just Tuesday that the y real ly had no id ea of the dif ferences amongst busi nesses with respect to their need for borro wing money and, in fact, the y used arbi trary figur e of 350,000 gross in come per year to rule out for assis tanc e any numbers of small busi nesses who, by virtue of the fact tha t thei r busi ness is in the retail or whole sale sector, have to have money avai lable to them to carry inv entor y.

Tha t is the prime purpose why any body needs to have major bank financing today, is to carry in ventory, and tha t entir e sector has been rule d out because of some ridicu lous yardstick tha t ha s been taken out of a computer

summary of tax returns for this provinc e. Tha t's all tha t was behind the whole move for assistance. So now we find tha t small service enterpris es which rea lly shouldn't ha ve much of a bank loan, because the y don' t carry any inv entory, their whole operation consis ts of the services that their staff provide to the publi c. Those people are eligible for mortgage in ter est rel ie f when the y really don't have a strong need for carr ying bank loans and all of the various people who do have a stro ng need for bank loans can' t qual ify under the program. I think, Mr.

Speaker, tha t this is vivid demo nstration of this gover nment's total lack of understanding of the busi ness com munity, particul arly of the small busi ness community, who the y ac kno wle dge empl oy some 70-80 percent of the people in this province who are employed with in the private sector are in small busi nesses, and yet, they don' t understand them. They don' t understand wha t their busi nesses are all about and they don' t understand why they need help. They accept the plead in gs and the inf ormation that is given to them tha t th ere is a need for help.

The y read the lis ts of the busi nesses tha t are going in to receiver ship and the y ack nowledge tha t there is a need to do someth ing, but the y have no id ea wha t to do. I think tha t this is just one of a whole series of demons tra tions tha t we have ha d from this governme nt of its total lack of understanding of wha t is going on.

The Min ister of Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs, in di scussing hi s Rent Contr ol Bill and in response to the criticisms that were laid at hi s door step by the Home build ers' Association when the y said that by putting a four-year lim ita tion on the period under which a new buil ding would be out of rent cont rols, said, wel l, it's my under standing that it only takes four years for them to rent up, but it is not just the rent up period tha t is at questi on, Mr. Speaker.

It is the total perio d of time whereby the income finally exceeds the output in in vestment and if the y only allow them to get to a break-even poin t at the end of their four year rent, the n they clamp the controls on, then they will never get any return out of tha t investment. That is wha t the Minis ter doesn't understa nd, that they will never get a return if he all ows them to have the fi rst four years for rent up. When the y lose money for the fi rst four years and then the very year tha t the y hit break even, he clamps them under controls, the y will never get a return on their in vestment.

That is wha t is conc ern ing tho se developers, but he doesn't even under stand that. So, Mr. Speaker, I am not at all convi nced that this government has any handle on all the problems that are occurring today under its jurisdiction and the fact that at least two of its backbench members have had to stand up on grievances in the past few weeks and tell the gov ernme nt that they felt th ere was a problem afoot and that there were many things that had to be chan ged or else the whole pro vi nce would be in dif fi culty before long.

More dif ficulty than the y have al ready put it, is very very strong evidence tha t even with in their own Caucus, there isn't any agreement or understanding tha t the re is a problem. If the re were any agreement or understanding, they cert ainly aren't capable of deal ing with the problems tha t face them. 2999 Thank you, Mr. Speaker. QUESTION put, MOTION carried and the Ho use resolved itself in to a Commit tee to consid er of the Su pply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour able Memb er for Flin Flo n in the Chair for the Depar t ment of En ergy and Mine s.

CONCURRENT COMM ITTE ES OF SU PPLY SU PPLY -E MERGENCY IN TEREST RATE RELIE F MR. CHAIRMAN, H. Harapiak: We' ll call the Commi t tee to order. We are on Int erest Rate Relief on Page 11 6. The Memb er for Pem bi na. MR. D. OR CHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chair man. I have some questions for the Min ister of Agricultur e. Ho w many appl ications has the Min ister in di cated were approved al ready under the agricultur al portion of the In terest Rate Relie f Program? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Min ister. HON. B. UR USKI: I'll just get th ose fig ures, Mr. Chairman, I bel ieve it's 10 2.

MR. D. OR CHARD: Mr. Chai rman, the Mini ster also gave two figur es the other day; one was a $600,000 payout; the other was a $1 milli on payout. Which is the figur e that we assume will be the uptake of this pro gram over the two-year period? HON. B. UR USKI: Let me make sure that I under stand the honour able member's que stion. The honou rable member is saying the uptake of this program over the next two years? MR. D. ORC HARD: Wh at I am wanting to kn ow is how you got $600,000 in one in stance and $1 million in another instance, because you gave us both figur es on Monda y, I guess it was. HON. B.

UR USKI: I'm not sure, Mr. Chairman, that the honour able member now is speak ing of two fig ures. I ind icated tha t the total projected value of the th ree componen ts, the farm program, the busi ness program and the housing program on the basis of the present com mitme nts made by the approved cli ent s if the y stay on tha t program for the full two-year period, the takeu p at present is $1. 75 mil lion. That is the fig ure that we gave to this Committee. MR. D.

ORC HARD: Tha t's for the th ree programs, and Hans ard will either correct me or correct the Min ister, but the Mini ster mentio ned at one poin t in time that the re was an uptake expected of $600,000 and then, at a later time, he gave a figur e of $1 mil lion and tha t was for the agricu ltural portion of the program only. ls the Mini ster saying neither of th ose figur es are correct? HON. B. URU SKI: No. Mr.

Chairman, of the 10 2 approvals on the agricultur al portion of the program, the projected financ ial assistance commitments over the 24- month period, if the cl ient s stay in the program, of the 10 2 approvals the co mmitmen ts would be in excess of $1 mill ion. The other two componen ts would be the remaining $. 75 mil lion. MR. D. ORC HARD: Oka y. We ha ve got 10 2 appl ic a tions over a 24-month perio d bei ng over $1 milli on. Is this wha t the Min ister is in dic ati ng? HON. B. UR USKI: That is correct. MR. D.

ORC HARD: Then, of the 10 2 appl ications that are approved, are all of them at the maximum assist ance, i.e., $3,000 grant, $3, 000 loan? HON. B. URU SKI: Mr. Chairman, I would have to get the exact deta il s, but I bel ieve most of them are at or near the ma ximum. I would have to get tho se deta ils and the staff are not here at the present ti me. MR. D. OR CHARD: Then I would be willing to wait or have this in formati on come at a later date.

Wha t I would lik e to kn ow since the Min ister's press release has ind ic ated tha t this is not merely a program which delays eve ntual loss of the busi ness or farm and that th ese lo ans are made only where there's a chanc e tha t the loan will prevent failur e, I would like to have the Min ister provide me with the na mes of the successful 3J une, 19 82 applic ants, the value of assistance provided to them and then we can ask the Mini ster two years from now as to whe ther th ose people are still in busi ness and see whether his judg ment ha s been wise and sagacious . HON. B. UR USKI: Mr.

Chairman, I' d be pleased to provide the details with respect to the amoun t of assis tance and the type of farming operations that were inv olved. In terms of supplying the names of people under the program, because of the nature of the financial in formation tha t is provid ed, I would have to take tha t under advisement and come back to the honour able member. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I'm no t asking for the detai led financial in formation tha t the in dividual producer is supplying MACC in the appl ica tion form.

I'm simply asking the Min ister, under the 10 2 applica tions, to ind ic ate to us who the person is and the amoun t of the assistance provided to tha t person. I don't want any other det ails of the persons financial situa ti on. All I want is the person's name and to whom the assistance is being provided and the value of tha t assistance. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I will take tha t que s tion under advisement from the honour able member. MR. D. ORC HARD: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, wha t is the natur e of the advi semen t? We are ta lking about a program which is in the Estimates of the Provinc e of Man itoba .

It is the money of the people of Mani toba tha t is be ing used to assist these opera tions. It is the same thing as providing grants to di fferent busi nesses for in frastructu re, or for any other program. This is a government program funded by the taxpayers and I can't see the Minis ter's hesitancy in pr ovi ding us with who receives the assistance, how much the assistance is. We're not asking for the detaile d fi nancial back ground of that indi vidual farm or busine ss.

All we want to know is who received tha t money and how much it was, because part of the program - and I will quote di rectly from wha t the Min ister says in her e - he says tha t "these farmer applic ants must demons trate tha t the y are in serious financial dif ficu lty and that the assistance would measurably improve the situations, not merely forestall ban kruptcy, or foreclosure brought on by causes other than high in terest rates ." So it's in the Min ister's own press release, the parameters under which he is giving the people this money.

We want to make sure tha t these people are in deed part of the farm co mmunity two years from now. 3000 HON. S. URUSKI: Mr. Ch air man, tha t's precisely the point that I am hesitant on in terms of revealing inf or mation of cli ents' names in terms of their futu re possi bil ities of either get ting additio nal financing or the lik e, may be and might be put in to jeopardy by th ose very com ments that the honour able member is in dicating in terms of revea ling perso ns' names, Mr.

Chairman, because if tha t is allo wed to happen with respect to home own ers, respect to farmer s, or busine ss people, I venture to say that could pla ce in to jeop ardy the op era tions of those people. -(I nterjec tion)-

Thursday, 3 June, 19 82 Wel l, Mr. Chairman, the honour able member talks about MACC. The only time tha t any thing was ever revealed was when the members started raising in di vidual claim fi les on the floor of the Legi slatu re, and it was members of the Cons ervative Party tha t started tha t kin d of nonsense with respect to MACC, of ask ing for in dividual fi les of MACC loans. I don't belie ve it was members of the New Democr atic Party who were prone to start asking que stions with respect to in di vidual files. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, you kn ow, the Min ister hasn't offered one clear reason as to why the taxpayers of Mani toba and, in deed, members of this Leg islatu re, who are responsible for the pruden t expe nditur e of taxes raised by in come tax, sales tax, the payroll tax, the new taxes tha t this govern ment has brought on.

There is no reason tha t we should not be abie to have in formation which would allow us to judge the effe ctivene ss of this program in preventing foreclosures because, you know, on this side of the Ho use we bel ie ve this program is qu ite in adeq uate and by the Mini ster refusing - no, I shoul dn 't say refus ing, he's going to take it under advisement, he hasn' t refused to provide the na mes and the amount of assis tance per indi vidua l - but if the Min ister woul dn't pro vide us, as members of the Leg isla ture, with the names of people who have received assistance so tha t we can have an abil ity to moni tor the effectiveness of this program, then wh ere is the open ness tha t this gov ernment has promised us?

The se are taxpayer dol lar s that are being spent to assist Man itobans in a program developed by this government. We ha ve every right to kn ow who receives assistance under this program. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, let's take the hon ourable member's argument the way he is putting it. Is the member suggesting that anyone who receives social allo wances in the Province of Man itoba, their names should be put on the record because I bel ieve, in terms of assistance -(I nterjec tion)- Mr. Chair man, they are not on the record, their records are kept confidential.

Un le ss the in dividual al lows even an MLA to in vestigate a complaint or a claim file, tha t name and the det ails will not be released even to members of the Leg isla ture by the department, unle ss he has author ization of the person in volved. The sa1 ne kin d of in formation is kept confidential with respect to on e's in come tax matters, tha t no one can get access to tho se fil es unle ss the author ity of that in dividual is kept there. What the member is suggesting, in terms of his argument, that we want to ch eck the effe ctiveness. Mr.

Chairman, wha t he in effect is suggesting, tha t really to check the effectiveness we have to be able to see the financial statements of tho se in dividuals and the tr oub les tha t they were in MR. D. ORC HARD: No, you are not tel ling the truth there. MR. B. UR USKI: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, let me finish, the honour able member doesn't want to wait .. Mr.

Chair man, det ails with respect to the types of cl ientele, the income cat egory and all tha t kind of inf ormation can be provided read ily to the honour able members, but in terms of specific name s that the honour able member 3001 suggests, I indic ated I will take tha t under advisement. With respect to regions, I think even regions can b

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-68a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 68a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4ee030c85cb5db5767621c141e805796f55190b4

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