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June 6, 1989

34th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

NATIONAL ACCESS AWARENESS WEEK

SENIOR CITIZENS MONTH

TOURETTE SYNDROME AWARENESS MONTH

ENVIRONMENT WEEK

ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION

BROTHERHOOD NIGHT IN PETERBOROUGH

TEACHERS’ LABOUR DISPUTE

VISITOR

EVENTS IN CHINA

JAMES TROTTER

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

ASSISTANCE FOR THE DISABLED

RESPONSES

ASSISTANCE FOR THE DISABLED

ORAL QUESTIONS

CONDUCT OF CABINET MINISTERS

USE OF CHARITABLE FOUNDATION’S FUNDS

SOLICITOR GENERAL’S VISIT TO POLICE STATION

CONDUCT OF CABINET MINISTERS

WORKERS’ COMPENSATION

HIRING OF HOUSING CONSULTANT

ELECTRICITY DEMAND AND SUPPLY

EVENTS IN CHINA

CHAIRMAN OF ONTARIO PLACE CORP

MINING

TEMAGAMI DISTRICT RESOURCES

ESCAPE OF PRISONER

TRANSIT SERVICES

ASSISTANCE FOR THE DISABLED

ACCESS TO INFORMATION

PETITIONS

TEACHERS’ SUPERANNUATION

WORKERS’ COMPENSATION

TEACHERS’ SUPERANNUATION

HOME CARE

WORKERS’ COMPENSATION

TEACHERS’ SUPERANNUATION

NATUROPATHY

TEACHERS’ SUPERANNUATION

MOTIONS

COMMITTEE BUSINESS

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

INTRODUCTION OF BILL

FORT ERIE COMMUNITY YOUNG MEN’S CHRISTIAN ASSOCIATION ACT, 1989

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

ORDERS OF THE DAY

EDUCATION AMENDMENT ACT, 1989 / LOI DE 1989 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L’ÉDUCATION

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

NATIONAL ACCESS AWARENESS WEEK

Mr Allen: This is National Access Awareness Week, yet inadequate funding, gaps in service and long waiting lists for community services deny access for thousands of disabled people.

In group homes and independent living services, for example, there are over 200 on a waiting list in Hamilton, where disabled and handicapped people can languish on waiting lists for as long as eight years. In vocational rehabilitation services, which are understaffed, there are people waiting six, nine or 12 months in various offices in Toronto for assessment for a placement, only to have to go on another waiting list for the service. Access delayed is access denied.

Education: Jaclyn Rowett is still denied access to her neighbourhood school after five years of fighting by her family. The Thompson family has fought for years to have equal access to education for their gifted sons with learning disabilities and their case is still before the courts and the Ontario Human Rights Commission.

Employment: Some 70 per cent of disabled Canadians are unemployed and the only action this government has taken on employment equity is to change the minister responsible. Project Opportunity, to train the developmentally handicapped in the workplace as an alternative to sheltered workshops, obviously requires some boldness and good support systems, both lacking in this government.

Transportation: The Ministry of Transportation held up proclamation of reasonable accommodation in the Human Rights Code for two years, but all we get are a few accessible taxis and more studies.

In National Access Awareness Week, we hear the government proclaim anew its commitment to the disabled, but will it act? The record is not encouraging.

SENIOR CITIZENS MONTH

Mrs Cunningham: During the month of June, the citizens of Ontario are celebrating the contributions of our many senior citizens. Many are healthy and energetic, but sadly many are not. They are not independent and they must rely on our support.

In light of the fact that it is Senior Citizens Month, I would like to bring to the attention of the House another case of government mismanagement. A New Agenda was released on 2 June 1986 by Mr Ron Van Horne. The primary objective of this white paper, and I quote, “is to outline a series of broad policy directions, which would, in the view of the government, lead to a more effective and affordable system of health and social services for the elderly.”

The Minister of Health (Mrs Caplan) has stated in the House that she is committed to meeting the needs of Ontario seniors and is committed to developing the strategies outlined in A New Agenda. The budget last year was $9.3 million and this year it is $9.4 million. Only 16 of the promised 38 integrated homemaker sites are realities.

Where is the extended-care legislation? Where are the rest home standards? The minister promised an integrated one-stop shopping approach. Her list of broken promises is endless. Her new agenda is clearly an old agenda, and many seniors are anxiously awaiting government programming to help them live their retirement years in dignity.

TOURETTE SYNDROME AWARENESS MONTH

Mr Neumann: The month of June is Tourette Syndrome Awareness Month in Canada. Tourette syndrome is characterized by multiple involuntary muscular movements or tics, uncontrollable vocal sounds and utterances and, in some cases, inappropriate words.

Can you imagine what it must be like to live with this condition when you and those around you do not know what it is that you have? Early diagnosis and improved understanding can make a world of difference for families who have to deal with Tourette syndrome every day. In many instances, publicity has helped families to achieve awareness. Diagnosis and treatment followed. What a difference this new understanding has made in their lives.

Children and adults with these problems need special understanding, care and love. Some may require special medical attention. Fortunately, however, this lifelong condition does not affect either intelligence or longevity, and the majority of people with Tourette syndrome try to lead relatively normal, active lives.

The Tourette Syndrome Foundation of Canada is a voluntary, nonprofit organization, composed of individuals affected by the syndrome, their families, friends, professionals and other interested people. Its efforts for more research and improved public understanding provide hope for the future, as symbolized in its “one green leaf of hope.”

ENVIRONMENT WEEK

Mrs Grier: This is Environment Week -- a good time to take stock of how the government is doing. Unfortunately for all of us, the answer has to be that the government has stalled in mid-term. The reality does not match the rhetoric. The performance does not live up to the public relations campaign.

Do members remember the municipal-industrial strategy for abatement, the water-pollution control program that was going to solve all our problems? MISA is now two to three years behind schedule, with no emission reduction standards in place.

It is 18 months since the minister described the regulation dealing with air pollution as outdated. It is even more outdated now, and not even a draft replacement regulation has been seen.

Countdown Acid Rain will be a good program in 1994, when it takes effect. We all have blue boxes. We also have leaky landfills, long-drawn-out battles to find new sites and municipalities facing ever increasing costs to dispose of garbage.

What we do not have are concrete proposals to reduce garbage at source, to regulate packaging to force industries to use recycled materials. We have an Environmental Assessment Act, which is in grave danger of being undermined and weakened as the Minister of the Environment (Mr Bradley) grants exemptions and invents ways of getting around requests for full environmental assessment.

The people of Ontario want a sustainable society. This government states it supports the concept and the need to integrate economic and environmental decision-making. What this government lacks is a coherent, long-term vision for either the environment or the economy. Without that vision --

The Speaker: The member’s time has expired.

ONTARIO HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION

Mrs Marland: The integrity and the maintenance of the public confidence in the Ontario Human Rights Commission are matters of vital concern to this Legislature. The resignation of Raj Anand as chief commissioner last Friday makes it imperative that review of the operations of the OHRC by the standing committee on government agencies proceed as a priority matter.

In my opinion, a complete review by this House is required to restore public confidence in the Human Rights Commission and to re-establish the commission’s ability to play a lead role in our efforts to combat every form of discrimination. In all fairness to the next chief commissioner, it is incumbent on this House to act now to address problems at the commission to ensure that Mr Anand’s successor has a firm foundation on which to build. It is one of the most important government agencies.

With regard to the appointment of the next chief commissioner, I suggest that the government give this House the opportunity to participate in the selection process by allowing the standing committee on government agencies to make recommendations regarding the search and selection process, the qualifications required for the position, and, to review candidates for the position. The Legislature’s endorsement of the appointment would dispel any questions about partisanship and favouritism, and allow the new commissioner to take on this challenging position knowing he enjoyed the support of all members of the assembly.

BROTHERHOOD NIGHT IN PETERBOROUGH

Mr Adams: I attended the 16th annual Brotherhood Night in Peterborough. This is an event initiated by the Knights of Columbus, which involves all Masonic lodges and service clubs in our community. This year, the Kawartha Shrine Club was cosponsor.

This is an event which for more than a decade has brought together people from different religious, social and business backgrounds. For one evening, diverse elements of the community get together to share experiences and get to know each other. The influence of this single evening extends throughout the year and is felt in our streets and in our homes through an increased tolerance and mutual respect.

We should all bear in mind that the purpose of such an event is not to make Catholic into Protestant, or Shriner into Kiwanian. The object is not to produce a bland, homogenized society. Rather, it is to allow us to take full advantage of the diversity that is one of the great strengths of our society. We can be different and still respect each other.

I congratulate all those who are involved in the organization of Brotherhood Night in Peterborough. They are an example to everyone in this House.

TEACHERS’ LABOUR DISPUTE

Mr R. F. Johnston: Last night in Kirkland Lake the striking teachers, representing kids who have been out of the school system for two months now without any action by this government or by the local board, held a meeting,

an act of solidarity, to commemorate the work of the miners in 1941-42, one of the most important strikes in labour history, where although the strike was lost the right to negotiate was won.

They said to their community that teachers are as fundamentally an important part of that community as were the miners, and to request some action by this government to try to move the mediation process along and bring the board to the table, so that those teachers and those students can get the same kind of educational rights as other students and teachers throughout northern Ontario.

VISITOR

The Speaker: I would inform the members that I would like them to recognize a special guest in the Speaker’s gallery. We have the Minister of Housing from New South Wales, Australia, the Honourable Joe Schipp. Would the members please join me in welcoming Mr Schipp.

Hon Mr Conway: I would like to seek the unanimous consent of the House so that members of each of the political parties can address the very tragic circumstances developing in the People’s Republic of China.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?

Agreed to.

EVENTS IN CHINA

Hon Mr Wong: In the last few days the eyes of the world have been focused on Beijing. We abhor the bloodshed, grieve over the loss of life and deeply regret the destructive turmoil.

In speaking on behalf of the government, I know that we were all shocked to learn of the tragic events that have taken place. Although events are unfolding at a very rapid pace in China, it is our belief as Canadians and frends of the People’s Republic of China that we remain clear in our resolve to support the people in their quest for greater freedom and democracy while condemning the brutal use of force.

As Canadians in a province which has had an important relationship with China, we should maintain a posture that can assist the people of the People’s Republic of China to return as early as possible to a state of stability and peace and to a constructive path of social, economic and political reform.

I am sure that I speak for everyone in this House and for all Ontarians when I condemn the senseless violence, the resulting deaths and injuries, and the failure of the Chinese authorities to deal with the situation in a peaceful, nonviolent way.

News of the deaths and injuries in Beijing have deeply affected all Ontarians, particularly those who have family and friends in that city. The Ontario government is concerned about the wellbeing of all Ontarians in Beijing and particularly concerned for the safety of 21 exchange participants who are in China as part of Ontario programs. Currently, the Ontario government is in the process of facilitating the evacuation of all students participating in the Ontario-Jiangsu exchange programs and all Ontario government employees associated with the centre.

While much confusion exists as to how far-reaching the violence in China has become, I can assure this House that the government is closely monitoring the situation. This government is working in close co-operation with the federal government, the Canadian embassy in Beijing, the consulate in Shanghai and the University of Toronto, the host agency for the student exchange program.

The Ontario government is calling for the immediate end to the violence in China. We are strongly urging the Chinese government to restore the peace and stability the Chinese people have worked so hard to achieve and maintain.

Mr Reville: All states are characterized by a monopoly on the legitimate use of force, but the key word is “legitimate.” The requirement of legitimacy means that any state’s use of force against its citizens must be carefully defined, limited and subject to internal and external accountability.

These constraints were swept aside by blood last weekend in Beijing. After six weeks of demonstrations in Tiananmen Square, involving hundreds of thousands of people engaged in nonviolent protest of conditions in their country, soldiers cleared the square at the cost of the lives of hundreds and perhaps thousands of unarmed people.

Prior to last weekend, the world watched in awe and admiration as the students of China, with care and discipline and without violence, advanced the case for democracy. For nearly six weeks, in the face of serious provocations, the student democracy movement was a model to the world of how to push a totalitarian government towards peaceful change.

The terrible event is deeply troubling to us and, I think, to the people of Ontario. Certainly it has galvanized members of the Chinese community in my riding and elsewhere, both in Canada and around the world.

As legislators, members of this assembly perhaps are more sensitive than most people to the responsibilities that attach to state power. I and my colleagues in the New Democratic Party are proud of our party’s record of defending tolerance against those who would substitute the might of the state. We claim no superiority. As democrats, we believe in the moral authority that flows from those who are governed. As socialists, we are mistrustful of any claim to possess uniquely that authority.

We are shocked at the cruel cynicism of China’s rulers. We are saddened by the deaths in Beijing. There is no moral justification for the actions of the Chinese state against its own people in Beijing last week.

Mr Brandt: I know I speak for all members when I say that rarely have I ever seen such a series of tragic and brutal events as unfolded in China over the past couple of weeks.

On behalf of my party and all Ontarians, I want to praise the many students and citizens in China for their intense desire to improve their situation, for their desire for democracy, for a liberalization of attitude to go with a liberalization of trade and economic ties with the west, and I want to praise and honour their desire to accomplish these goals, not through violence or upheaval but in fact through peaceful protest.

Unfortunately, it is with the same intensity of feeling that I must condemn the actions of the present administration in China for ordering one of the most brutal assaults I think any of us has ever witnessed, an assault by an army on its own people. There simply can be no justification for this kind of attack, especially by soldiers who in the past have proudly proclaimed their name and heritage as being that of the people’s army.

I ask all members of the House to reflect on the events in China over the past few days and to think of the loss of human lives and of the many more thousands who were severely injured. The toll of dead and injured is by some counts close to 15,000. In other words, it is as if a harsh military machine had marched into the Ontario towns of Trenton or Pembroke or Elliot Lake and wiped out the entire population. That is the magnitude of this carnage we are talking about.

We must express through concrete action our outrage not with the Chinese people but with the present government in Beijing. That is why I call upon the Premier (Mr Peterson) and his Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology (Mr Kwinter) to close our offices in the province of Jiangsu until the Chinese government is brought to account for its actions or until it admits to and takes responsibility for the lives lost needlessly in Beijing over the past several days.

By taking this action, we will not only protest in the strongest possible terms our absolute revulsion at what has occurred in China, but we will also be taking some real and meaningful steps in protecting the lives of Ontario employees who are presently employed in China.

In closing, let me say it was with great honour and pride that, as Minister of Industry and Trade some years ago, I was the one who signed the original twinning agreement with the Chinese province of Jiangsu. I believed in the need and the advantages, both economically and politically, of our trade with China. I still have those beliefs, but we cannot let the Chinese people face their future alone, without our support, by pretending that the tragedies of the past few days did not occur. Let us express our solidarity with their cause by withdrawing from China until a more humane and advanced attitude becomes a reality in the government of China.

The Speaker: Having listened to the three members express their concern regarding the tragic events in China, would it be the wish of the House that I send an official copy of Hansard to the Chinese ambassador to Canada?

Agreed to.

Hon Mr Conway: Mr Speaker, I would like to seek a second unanimous consent so that the House could pay its respects to the late James Trotter, who served in this Legislature for a number of years.

The Speaker: Consent?

Agreed to.

JAMES TROTTER

Mr Fleet: Jim Trotter was a member of this Legislature from 1959 until 1971. I first knew Jim Trotter as His Honour Judge Trotter, because I had an opportunity to go before him in the district court in Toronto. As a lawyer appearing before him, I was impressed by his ability to pay close attention to the arguments presented and to render a fair decision. Prior to his involvement as a member of the court, he was a very active lawyer throughout the city of Toronto and served the public in that context.

As a member of the Legislature, he was both a large-l and small-l liberal. He was a valiant defender of the interests of his constituents. One of the things he was particularly proud of was the successful opposition he led to the use of Lakeshore Boulevard in the 1960s as a racetrack, but he was also interested in the larger issues that affect all of us. He was particularly notable as an advocate and proponent of a comprehensive, prepaid health care system in Ontario. He was notable for his advocacy of liberal principles -- and I use that in the small-l sense -- both within the caucus and the party and in the public at large.

I had occasion a number of times to speak with Jim Trotter. I ran into him when I was canvassing in the election. Of course, he could not take part because he was a judge, but we did chat over some of the differences in the life of parliamentarians and some of the hurdles that he dealt with in order to serve the public. He was particularly pleased that in the campaign I was involved with his son, Andy, because he believed very much that social commitment was a critical aspect of every person’s contribution in our society.

Recently, I had occasion as well at the funeral home to talk with others whose lives he touched in every aspect of his career. I know that his sudden passing is a great loss to his wife, Grace, and his children, Andy, Elizabeth and Virginia. It is a particularly noticeable loss because of the knowledge that we are all better off for his having been an active member of this Legislature and our society.

Mr Laughren: I know that Judge Trotter served before I arrived in Queen’s Park. I was elected in 1971 and he had served up until then. But, as someone obviously interested in the political process here at Queen’s Park prior to my arrival here, I certainly followed the debates and I knew of Mr Trotter and the consistently progressive positions that he took as a member of an opposition party in those days. I know as well that when he moved to become a judge his decisions were consistent with those positions he had taken here at Queen’s Park.

So though I did not personally know Mr Trotter, I do want to extend condolences to the Trotter family on behalf of me and my colleagues in the New Democratic caucus.

Mr Harris: I want to rise on behalf of my party to pay tribute to His Honour Jim Trotter. As has been said by others, he served with distinction for 12 years as an MPP at Queen’s Park. I am told by those whom I have talked to who knew him, as I was not here in those days, that he was a man of integrity not only before he arrived here but while he was here and after he left; that he indeed fought hard for those causes that he believed in.

I noted in the Globe and Mail obituary that it indicated he served for 12 years during his “party’s lean days” and I can relate to that. I want to reflect on the impact that as an opposition member he was able to have, both personally and on behalf of his party, in this chamber. I am privileged on behalf of our party to have the opportunity to extend our condolences to his wife, Grace, and their three children.

The Speaker: As usual, when Hansard is printed, I will, on behalf of all members, forward a copy to the Trotter family so that your words of sympathy are received by them.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

ASSISTANCE FOR THE DISABLED

The $38 million, five-year initiative, introduced in the budget of the Treasurer (Mr R. F. Nixon), will ensure, where possible, that persons who are disabled will have barrier-free access to Ontario government buildings.

My ministry has already produced a technical guide to barrier-free design. We have completed a three-year survey of all Ontario-owned and -leased facilities.

Now we are ready to begin work on the first 170 projects throughout Ontario.

Work on buildings as diverse as the registry office in Thunder Bay, the London Psychiatric Hospital, the Ontario Provincial Police detachment in Hearst, Sir James Whitney School in Belleville and the Supreme Court and county court buildings in Toronto will be completed this fiscal year.

L’Organisation des Nations unies a déclaré la décennie 1983-1993 celle des personnes handicapées. En signant cette déclaration, l’Ontario nous a apporté plusieurs défis, dont l’accessibilité des personnes handicapées à tous les immeubles gouvernementaux, autant aux immeubles nouveaux et existants qu’aux édifices historiques.

This $38 million initiative, developed jointly by the Ministry of Government Services and the Office responsible for Disabled Persons, reflects this government’s strong commitment to meet those challenges.

I am delighted to make this statement.

Hon Mrs McLeod: This is National Access Awareness Week, encouraging us to take stock of the barriers that keep people with disabilities from fully participating in and contributing to our communities.

It would be very difficult, indeed, to participate fully without access to education. The Ministry of Colleges and Universities has been working on removing the sometimes invisible barriers to our post-secondary institutions.

Our universities have also been working on removing barriers. In the last two years, nearly $6.5 million has been committed by the universities to improving facilities and making programs more accessible to students with disabilities.

The physical barriers are perhaps the easiest to detect. If a student cannot read the floor numbers in an elevator, open a classroom door or climb stairs to the library, he or she would have a difficult time getting through one day of studies, let alone a three-year degree.

But the barriers are sometimes more subtle than that. There is a need for support and counselling for those who have less visible disabilities such as the hard of hearing or persons with learning disabilities.

In March 1988 we announced that an additional $3.1 million would be allocated to the colleges of applied arts and technology to provide the kind of counselling support needed by these students with disabilities. In 1989 this money became part of our base funding.

Today I am pleased to announce that $4 million is being committed to promote access for students with disabilities at Ontario universities.

The $4 million will be used by universities to establish and staff a special needs office to provide counselling, professional resources and information.

A student with a hearing impairment, for instance, might wish to go there to find out where he or she could get a lecture transcribed, or find out about interpreter services.

The funds will also go towards providing professional development activities to acquaint all personnel with the needs of students with disabilities and the obligations facing the institutions.

If we carry on with the hard of hearing student, a professor might wish to look at the resources available to ensure a lecture is understood by all students in the class, which could mean taping the session or having it transcribed for those with limited hearing.

The funds will also help provide support services such as attendant care on a limited basis as well as devices and equipment for students with disabilities.

Each university will receive a minimum level of support of $30,000 for the development of programs for students with disabilities. Additional funding will be provided to each institution based on enrolment.

It is increasingly important that our post-secondary institutions develop a welcoming environment for all students. I believe the measures announced today will work towards that goal.

RESPONSES

ASSISTANCE FOR THE DISABLED

Mr Allen: As someone who, when he first came to this Legislature, engaged in a major battle to secure the survival of an audio library at Trent University, at virtually the beginning of the Decade of Disabled Persons, nine years later I am pleased to see that we are beginning to see some serious action from the government with respect to some of the outstanding issues. Certainly the announcements today are a significant help, in particular, the announcements by the Minister of Government Services, which I am going to be responding to. A colleague will be responding to the second statement.

The problem we face is that there is such an accumulated delay in this whole field that, when one speaks of barrier-free access, it sounds great. When one establishes barrier-free design centres, as this government has done, it sounds great. When we produce access design awards, it sounds great. When we give awards to the disabled for their participation in the community, as we do, that is all great stuff.

The problem, however, is that when one comes to some very fundamental aspects of barrier-free access, some of them tangible and some of them intangible, the record is still extremely difficult to confront. For example, the government itself and the Ministry of Transportation for some years now have had before it a memorandum of agreement by disabled groups asking it to sign a timetable whereby it would endorse a certain

schedule of implementation of the integration of public and disabled transportation. We have had literally no action on that memorandum or any of the contents. It is true we have a few disabled accessible taxis for the disabled. We have some more studies that the minister a year ago said he would immediately be taking action on and yet none of the dimensions of that relating to integrated public transportation access have secured even a nod of agreement from the government or from the ministry.

One could go on with lots of examples. I just want to highlight the fact that we are far from winning this war. There is an immense number of battles for us to wage out there. Let’s keep the movement going and accelerate it as rapidly as we possibly can.

Mr R. F. Johnston: Maybe I will not be quite as generous as my colleague has been. When I look at this announcement, which makes it sound like there is going to be $4 million worth of new money going in, in point of fact it will be less than $1 million of real money. We are talking about $30,000 guaranteed to each institution for people with severe disability trying to get in. A colleague has said that this government is more like a speed bump on the access ramp to equality than a facilitator of access and this kind of announcement is kind of a slap in the face to people.

Let’s use the example of the deaf that is being talked about here. The reality is that virtually no deaf person in the province can go to university in this province. The kind of support services the minister is talking about putting in today will not make it any easier for a deaf person to go, and counselling to tell them where there might be an interpreter is not going to be helpful. Providing $30,000 to an institution to help somebody who maybe needs attendant care, which in the cases I have taken have cost as much as $16,000 to $20,000 a year per student, is not major access to people with major disabilities who want to go on to higher education.

This government has to get serious about making real equality possible for people with disability and not just putting forward more token programs with inflated figures trying to mask the fact that in fact it is not putting in real dollars into these programs at all.

Also, while we are on this topic, I would like to digress just slightly and suggest to the government that it has a responsibility to provide access to senior citizens’ apartment buildings that have more than one floor. It is a shame to see these people who are living on second floors denied access to their own homes, to their apartments. We deny them that access by not providing elevators in those buildings. They were built several years ago. They need those elevators.

I have pleaded with the Minister without Portfolio responsible for senior citizens’ affairs (Mrs Wilson) and the Minister without Portfolio responsible for disabled persons (Mr Mancini). I urge this minister to please prevail upon his colleagues in caucus to provide those seniors with the access they need for their own homes. Surely this is as important as providing access to government buildings.

The question I hope this minister and the minister for the disabled, who unfortunately I assume is absent today, will consider is the fact that we have one million disabled people in Ontario today, and that under the home renewal program for the disabled, which is a terribly important program for renovations and changes to homes to make those homes accessible and functional for disabled people, out of those one million people only 750 have been able to access the fund for those renovations.

In fact, since the program seems to run out of money very early in the fiscal year, I say to the minister that if he is speaking to the minister for the disabled, I hope that particular program will be allocated some of his $38 million, for that specific fund for the disabled, because there is a tremendous need, a large number of applications that simply are not met. Also, just labelling buildings barrier free and accessible is not enough. There are a lot of buildings including our own that are labelled barrier free. In fact, in this very building, I could take members to a washroom that is identified as being accessible and in fact is not accessible.

Mr Jackson: I would like to acknowledge as well the announcement of the Minister of Colleges and Universities (Mrs McLeod) this afternoon. I also read it in the Globe and Mail a couple of days ago. I want to commend her because it is a first step in this area of providing access to attendant care for post-secondary students. As my colleague the member for Scarborough West (Mr R. F. Johnston) has indicated, it is not a lot of dollars and it probably will not go very far, but it is a start.

Unfortunately, we have a government that includes some cabinet colleagues of hers who have not gone as far as she has in winning this argument at the cabinet table. It is unfortunate, for example, in the case of Wally Elgersma, a case I continually bring to the attention of this government. This 11-year-old child with spina bifida does not have access to educational support services and he does not have access to badly needed medical support services because this government has a barrier for children who are attending private schools. That is grossly unfair.

I ask that this minister, who has overcome this hurdle in cabinet, assist the Minister of Health (Mrs Caplan) and the Minister of Education (Mr Ward) to overcome the hurdles they personally have with the issue of making sure that all children in this province have similar access to these types of programs.

It is interesting that today we will debate the issue of heritage languages. This government has a policy of pride that heritage languages will be accessible to private school children in this province, but we will not give them equal medical attention and support in this province. That is an unfair double standard and a barrier this government has yet to overcome.

ORAL QUESTIONS

CONDUCT OF CABINET MINISTERS

Mr Reville: My questions are for the Premier. Over the past 19 days, since 18 May in fact, many people, including members of my caucus and my party, have wondered about the Premier’s standards for regulating and overseeing the conduct of the members of his cabinet. Will the Premier tell the House just what his standards are for ministerial conduct?

Hon Mr Peterson: I am very happy to do so. As the member knows, a number of guidelines have been published and he has seen some of them. There has been a discussion of some of them with respect to discussions with the police -- under what circumstances it is appropriate, who should speak to the police and who should not -- as my honourable friend will know.

There are conflict-of-interest guidelines now enshrined into law. The member will recall this Legislature brought those into being. My honourable friend will be aware of that. Some tell me that those, which apply to all members of this House, are some of the toughest conflict-of-interest guidelines anywhere.

There are several levels of, shall we say, enforcement. The conflict-of-interest commissioner in certain situations obviously would be appropriately involved. The member, any other member of this House or any private citizen can refer a matter to the conflict-of-interest commissioner for an independent resolution. There are certain other guidelines I have the obligation to interpret, as my honourable friend is aware. I think that is a parliamentary tradition that has gone on probably for 400 or 500 years.

Mr Reville: Members of this Legislature are well aware of the conflict-of-interest legislation and of the ability of people to refer matters to the commissioner. I guess what I am more interested in is to understand from the Premier whether he intends to provide a detailed elaboration of those standards of behaviour, such as were set out by Prime Minister Trudeau in 1976 or Premier Davis in 1978. Will he in fact embrace those standards publicly for the Legislature and the people of Ontario?

Hon Mr Peterson: Those are the operative standards and I am very happy to share those. We inherited a number of guidelines and I think my honourable friend is aware of those, but if he is not, I would be happy to share them with him. In addition to that, we have gone on and enshrined in legislation the Members’ Conflict of Interest Act. So we have taken it beyond that, as my honourable friend is aware.

Mr Reville: The Premier again refers to the conflict-of-interest legislation, but he has neglected to say to the House clearly whether or not the standards set out by Premier Davis in 1978 are the standards he uses to regulate the members of his cabinet and their behaviour. How does he come to the kinds of judgements he does come to when he is looking at such standards? Are the standards he is looking at the Premier Davis standards or are they not?

Hon Mr Peterson: I thought I answered my honourable friend. Yes, we have embraced those but have indeed gone beyond them, and now we have the thorough disclosure legislation for cabinet ministers as well as all members of the House. Yes, we have embraced those but have gone beyond them.

Mr Reville: The Premier’s words are good and the actions are questionable.

Mr Ballinger: That’s a value judgement.

Mr Reville: Indeed, it is a value judgement.

USE OF CHARITABLE FOUNDATION’S FUNDS

Mr Reville: This is also to the Premier. There have been allegations in the media that one Patricia Starr, the Premier’s choice as chairman of Ontario Place, channelled thousands of dollars of charitable contributions to Liberals seeking electoral nominations, seeking positions within the Liberal party, seeking election as Liberal candidates either to this place or to the House of Commons. Given the seriousness of those kinds of allegations, I wonder if the Premier would tell the House why it is that neither the Ontario Provincial Police nor the Metropolitan Toronto Police are investigating these allegations.

Hon Mr Peterson: They may well be. I do not ask police forces to investigate. We have just gone through that discussion. My honourable friend, I assume, is not changing his mind in that regard. But I should tell him that the public trustee is looking into this entire matter, as he knows. He is going to report some time in the not-too-distant future, so I am told. Certainly it is his prerogative, should he feel there is anything improper, to call in the police at any point he thinks is appropriate.

Mr Reville: My understanding is different from the Premier’s, and perhaps he would like to file some kind of report on the activities of the public trustee.

The Premier will know as well that under the Income Tax Act, charities are not permitted to make political contributions and the penalty for that kind of behaviour could include loss of charitable status and other kinds of penalties. In order to protect the National Council of Jewish Women of Canada, the Toronto section, of which Ms Starr was the president, does he think it would be appropriate to ask the auditor to conduct a forensic audit to determine whether behaviour of the type complained of has in fact occurred?

Hon Mr Peterson: I say to my honourable friend that all the facts must come out. The question is, how does one go about that? We have a public trustee who is an independent public official, with about the same status as the Provincial Auditor I think my honourable friend would agree, to look at these matters. He is doing exactly that investigation right now and will do exactly what my friend is asking for.

Mr Reville: I may be incorrect but my understanding is that the investigation the Premier talks about is not being conducted by the public trustee, by the Ontario Provincial Police, by the Metro police, or by the Department of Revenue.

I wonder if the Premier is concerned, as I am, about the media reports that allege the campaign organization of the member for Oakwood (Ms Hošek) received funds from Patricia Starr in the amount of more than $750, an amount that would be in excess of that permitted by the Election Finances Act. Does the Premier think it would be appropriate for the Commission on Election Finances to investigate these allegations at the meeting it is having on 21 June next?

Hon Mr. Peterson: Absolutely. I think it is appropriate that the election expenses commission should look at that.

Mr D. S. Cooke: What have you asked anybody to do on this?

Hon Mr Peterson: I say to my honourable friend that I take it very seriously when allegations are made. My honourable friend will be aware that allegations are made every day. Frankly, some are accurate and some are not accurate. But I think it is incumbent upon us to use the institutions we have to track that down and make sure all the facts are there.

We have the public trustee looking at the matters I discussed with my friend. I think the election expenses commission is there. It is headed by a New Democrat, someone in whom the member has great faith, a former member of this House, Donald MacDonald, a former leader of his party. I have great faith in him and we all agreed to his appointment. I trust him and his commission to look into this. If there is anything improper, anything that is slightly amiss, restitution should be made. I agree with my honourable friend in that regard.

SOLICITOR GENERAL’S VISIT TO POLICE STATION

Mr Brandt: My question is for the Premier as well. I want to say to the Premier in all sincerity that we recognize the difficulty of the Solicitor General (Mrs Smith) in making the decision she did with respect to the resignation she submitted to him. We believe that was the right decision under the circumstances. Speaking on behalf of our party, we respect that decision on the part of the Solicitor General.

However, we would like to point out to the Premier that we are still left with a bit of a dilemma in connection with the way in which this matter has unfolded. That comes from the fact that the Solicitor General has indicated she resigned because the House was in a state of paralysis and to allow us to get back to business again. There has been no admission on the part of the Solicitor General, nor on the part of the Premier, that the visit to the Ontario Provincial Police Lucan detachment was in fact inappropriate. Will the Premier indicate to this House clearly whether he feels the visit was inappropriate under the circumstances?

Hon Mr Peterson: I think the honourable minister indicated regret. Obviously, we wish the whole thing had not taken place. I do not get any joy out of this; my honourable friend probably does not either. Let me just take him back. Some people question her judgement. I do not think it was ever an issue of integrity. It was an issue of judgement, whether the things she did were appropriate for a Solicitor General and whether they warranted her being fired in the circumstances. My friend and his colleagues obviously took the view and expressed it very vociferously in this House that she should be fired.

I discussed this yesterday with the Solicitor General. She was very concerned about a number of things and decided to tender her resignation. I accepted it. She was concerned about the fact that this House had come to a state of paralysis for a variety of reasons and taking advantage of the rules to bring everything else to a halt. That concerned her because she believes in the agenda of this government and the things we have to do in capping insurance rates, in heritage languages, in environment and in education, in so many important issues at stake.

She was also concerned, I say to my honourable friend, about the progress she had made with the Police Act. As members know, and my honourable friend would agree with me, there are a number of very sensitive issues today with regard to policing. She wanted to have complete credibility in dealing with those issues and thought that going through an inquiry would just impair the ability to deal with the real issues.

The honourable member knows and I know that mistakes are judged very harshly in politics. It was a mistake. We will have different opinions on the severity of that mistake, but she came to the conclusion that she was less able to do the really important things, given the tarnish that was there.

Frankly, she has discussed it with her family and did not think it was constructive for the government or for her personally to go through an inquiry, although at the same time very comfortable with the facts of the situation. They are all there. We can all make our judgement. She came to the conclusion she did. I support that and I think my honourable friend, certainly if not in political terms, in human terms can understand that response.

Mr Brandt: I would like to point out to the Premier that a letter dated 9 May was sent by one of his cabinet colleagues to a constituent. I will provide the Premier with that letter. However, I would like to quote from it, if I might: “Thank you for your letter dated April 10th, in which you outline a complaint against several members of the Lucan OPP. It would be inappropriate for me to intervene directly in this matter.”

That letter was sent by the Solicitor General prior to her visiting the OPP detachment in Lucan. On the one hand, she indicates it would be totally inappropriate for her to make that visitation; on the other hand, because it involved perhaps a son of the friend of the Solicitor General -- how can it be both? For the first time, the Premier has made an admission that at least a mistake was committed. We on this side are looking for some standard of conduct that he and his cabinet can be held to in connection with this kind of intervention.

All we are asking is, in this particular instance, was the visit to the OPP Lucan detachment appropriate or inappropriate?

Hon Mr Peterson: I do not know of the letter my honourable friend refers to or what the incident involved is. I would be happy if he would send it to me.

I think we established in this House that the minister was responding to a call in the middle of the night. He thinks it was inappropriate and that is fair enough, but that was the circumstance under which she responded. It was not a normal practice to do this kind of thing. It was not a normal situation. She responded in a human way. Many people think it was inappropriate. She did the honourable thing and resigned.

If my honourable friend has anything else -- I do not know what he is interested in establishing now. Does he just want to throw more sand on the coffin? He should help me out.

Mr Brandt: I think the Premier is being a little unfair when he uses the --

Mr Ballinger: Look in the mirror, Andy.

Mr Brandt: What I do when I look in the mirror, I might say to my honourable friend, is see situations like that of George Kerr who also took the honourable route.

The Speaker: Final supplementary.

Mr Brandt: I am attempting to establish by way of final supplementary, very simply, is it appropriate or inappropriate for any member of the Premier’s cabinet, in dealing with a matter of some sensitivity relative to the responsibilities of his portfolio, to make the kind of intervention and the kind of contact, innocently or otherwise, that we have established took place with respect to the Lucan OPP? All we want is a clear indication from the Premier what level of conduct and what level of standard he is prepared to establish for himself and the members of his cabinet.

Hon Mr Peterson: Obviously, it is not appropriate to interfere with any police investigation by anyone, by the Solicitor General, or by a member of Parliament for that matter.

Mr D. S. Cooke: There is a difference.

Hon Mr Peterson: I agree with my honourable friend that there is a higher standard for a Solicitor General. I say it is not appropriate to interfere in any way in an investigation, although she has to stand and defend the ministry in this regard. Any communication should obviously take place through the deputy or the commission, and not directly with any kind of a constable or officer.

We have to avoid at all cost the perception that there is one class of justice for one and one class of justice for another or that anybody through special influence can do things. I think we established the facts in the case and that that was not the case, but we understand, on the other hand, the appearance of that.

My honourable friend asked me for the standard and that is the standard. It applies to all members of this House. My honourable friend opposite has made light sometimes of not getting a ticket because the policeman was a Conservative. He is the one who joked about that, so before my honourable friend lectures too toughly to other people, before he is too harsh and too sanctimonious, he may want to think about his own behaviour as well, because we are all flawed human beings, we all make mistakes, and sometimes it is helpful to find a little charity in our souls.

[Applause]

Mr Brandt: Thank you for the applause, but it was hardly necessary.

CONDUCT OF CABINET MINISTERS

Mr Brandt: My question is with respect to a bill that was proposed by my colleague the member for Leeds-Grenville (Mr Runciman). In the context of that particular bill my colleague proposed a series of standards, if you will, for cabinet ministers which in his view should be followed and which we endorse as being a reasonable position that should have been endorsed by the government.

For whatever reasons, the Premier was unable to make that particular vote when it was called in this House, so he was unable to place his position on the record with respect to how he feels about the bill that was proposed by the member for Leeds-Grenville.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Callahan: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I believe that the rules say that if a bill has been introduced and defeated, as I understand this one was, it is out of order to raise that issue again in the House.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I understand the member’s point of order and I know that if a matter has been dealt with, it cannot be dealt with by the House. However, we are in question period, and I ask the member to continue and place the question.

Mr Brandt: Since the Premier was absent for the vote as it relates to this particular bill, would he indicate to the House whether he endorses the bill that was proposed by my colleague the member for Leeds-Grenville and whether he accepts that particular standard of behaviour for cabinet ministers?

Hon Mr Peterson: Let me say to the honourable member I take very seriously any private member’s bill that is introduced. I support the process here of discussing those matters with all members, and the government takes seriously any view of the House on those matters. But when the member opposite introduces a bill and votes against his own bill on the first reading, how does he expect us to take it very seriously?

Mr Sterling: We didn’t vote against it.

The Speaker: Order. Supplementary, the member for Leeds-Grenville.

Mr Runciman: The record will show that all members of this party voted in support of that bill.

Mr Speaker --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. The member for Leeds-Grenville is waiting patiently.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. If you wish to waste the time, go ahead.

Mr Runciman: This is indeed a very important and significant matter, certainly in the minds of the opposition parties, and the issue here is cabinet standards.

The Premier recently told the media that he instructed one of his bodyguards to call the Ontario Provincial Police regarding an accidental death at his home. There was no reason to do this, because, as he has often said -- in fact, has reiterated here today -- he does not tell the OPP how to do their jobs.

This incident raises the same questions about standards of conduct for cabinet ministers that we have been discussing the last two weeks. Is the Premier prepared today to table guidelines concerning communications between members of the cabinet and police and judicial officials which indicate clearly that this type of communication will not be tolerated?

Hon Mr Peterson: I think I have dealt with that in responding to some of the other questions, and the member was asked about his bill which he voted against. For a variety of reasons my friends obviously believe there should be a standard for such communications, but they cannot have it both ways.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Runciman: Again, the issue here is cabinet standards, apparently a very humorous matter in government benches.

The Speaker: The question?

Mr Runciman: I am amazed by the lack of judgment --

Interjections.

The Speaker: This might be the appropriate time to remind all members that a question is to ask for information, not necessarily offer. Please place your supplementary.

Mr Runciman: We are amazed by the lack of judgement shown by the Premier in this matter. Will the Premier acknowledge today that his communication with the OPP was improper and that clear written directions will be introduced so that communications between cabinet ministers and police or judicial officials regarding personal matters will never be tolerated under any circumstances?

Hon Mr Peterson: I think cabinet ministers are very familiar with their duties, and I appreciate the member’s advice on this matter.

WORKERS’ COMPENSATION

Mr Mackenzie: I have a question of the Minister of Labour. The minister will be aware of the revelation in the case of the women who worked at the Canadian General Electric lamp plant on Dufferin Street in Toronto and who are trying to get compensation for the cancer they now have. In December 1982, the Ministry of Labour knew that the cancer-causing agent thorium was present in the dust in the coil and wire drawing department where the women worked.

The Labour ministry informed the Atomic Energy Control Board, which wrote to the company, CGE, telling it to clean up its act. The Minister of Labour and CGE would not tell the union or my New Democrat colleague Elie Martel, at the time. In fact, the company said thorium was not used in the department where the women worked.

When the minister took over the ministry, the case of the women from the lamp plant claiming compensation for their cancer was one of the better-known industrial disease claims outstanding. Why did the minister not make this information available to the unions and to the official opposition and why did he persist in this government coverup?

Hon Mr Sorbara: There are times in this Legislature when I think that members of the opposition will go to just about any extent to -- how shall I put it? -- misportray matters of public information and matters of interest to this Parliament.

Interjections.

Hon Mr Sorbara: Well, this is a serious matter.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I am sure the member has created a little disorder and would want to change that word.

Hon Mr Sorbara: In this case, I am not unattracted to the word “misportray,” but I will withdraw it if it is your advice to do this.

Let me just put the facts of the case on the record. My friend the member for Hamilton East has said that in 1982 information was not made available to opposition parties or to the union in respect of the use of thorium at the Canadian General Electric plant in west Toronto. The fact is that the question of the presence of thorium, as I am told by ministry officials, was discussed not only with the union but with the joint health and safety committee at the plant at that time.

Indeed, I am told that in February 1983 a letter was sent to one of my predecessors, the incumbent minister at the time. It was received from Elie Martel, the former MPP for Sudbury East, who inquired as to why the ministry had failed, etc. At that time, the former member for Sudbury East was informed about all matters relating to the presence of thorium in that facility. For my friend the member for Sudbury East (Miss Martel) to suggest some seven years later that information was withheld I think is rather unfortunate and reduces somewhat the kinds of standards of debate in the House.

Let me put one other thing on the record, Mr Speaker, if I might. A few days ago on 19 May --

The Speaker: No, with respect.

Mr Mackenzie: Here we have a case of at least 11, now we think 14 and maybe more workers, some dead, some still hanging on, who have been trying to get compensation for their industrial diseases since well before 1980. The Workers’ Compensation Board refuses to recognize site-specific claims based on the probability that their cancer came from the workplace. Two examples are Inco’s old sintering plant in Sudbury and Dofasco’s foundry in Hamilton. Now the WCB’s Industrial Disease Standards Panel will not allow claims unless there is conclusive proof that conditions in a workplace caused the disease, and that is an almost impossible task to establish, as the minister knows.

Why has the minister not done something in Bill 162, his amendments to the Workers’ Compensation Act, that would give the benefit of the doubt to workers with industrial diseases and, in particular, ensure that the women and their families from the CGE plant, which have been fighting now for a good many years, receive the compensation --

The Speaker: Thank you.

Mr Mackenzie: -- to which it is now obvious they are entitled because of the knowledge that thorium in one of the plants --

The Speaker: The question was put.

Hon Mr Sorbara: Once again, I think the tack the member for Hamilton East is taking on this issue is really unfortunate, particularly because I know him to be a member who has brought to public debate issues relating to industrial disease and workplace health and safety for a good many years. But he knows quite well that the Industrial Disease Standards Panel does not make these determinations. It is a scientific body that reports to the board.

That report must be gazetted, the unions and any other person interested in that report may make comment and the Workers’ Compensation Board, based on the report of the Industrial Disease Standards Panel and any other body that wishes to comment, will make the determination. So it is unfortunate for the member to pretend in this House that it is the Industrial Disease Standards Panel which has denied compensation when that is clearly not the case.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

HIRING OF HOUSING CONSULTANT

Mr Harris: I have a question for the Premier regarding the $232,000 contract awarded by the Ministry of Housing to Dino Chiesa, someone who has been described as a Liberal Party fund-raiser, a campaign worker for the minister and who is known to have made a substantial personal donation to the Minister of Housing (Ms Hošek) in the last election. I would like to know when the Premier first learned of Mr Chiesa’s appointment and whether he is satisfied with the circumstances and the process surrounding the appointment of Mr Chiesa to that position.

Hon Mr Peterson: I will let the minister give the honourable member all the details of that.

Hon Ms Hošek: All of us have sat in the House while the member opposite has indicated repeatedly that he wanted to see government action on our government land. The member opposite knows that we have made a commitment to making sure the government land that we have will be developed for meeting the housing needs of this province. In order to do that we needed someone who had the kind of expertise that was required to make sure that our land would come on stream and meet our housing goals.

In order to do that the Deputy Minister of Housing developed selection criteria for the kind of person and expertise that was needed to do this job. He developed those selection criteria, and I assure the member opposite that the hiring of the person who was hired to do this work was done under those selection criteria and in accordance with Management Board guidelines.

Mr Harris: I was interested in knowing when the Premier knew, but I do have a supplementary based on the minister’s answer. I am advised that five people were contacted and interviewed. The person given the $250,000 contract just happened to be the one with the best Liberal credentials.

Management Board issues mandatory directives to prevent these kinds of coincidences. The directives state that awards of more than $25,000 must be made through a competitive process. Can the minister tell this House why a competitive process was ignored, and specifically why a $232,000 contract with the government would not be tendered or even advertised?

Hon Ms Hošek : My deputy has advised me that all appropriate procedures for hiring were followed. The member opposite should also know that we have shared the selection criteria on the basis of which this appointment was made with his office. I would be glad to share them with him in the House if he wants me to.

There were five people interviewed. The person chosen was someone whom the deputy minister thought was the best person for the job. The person who was hired has 11 years of experience working for Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp in the public sector doing housing work. He also has two years of experience in the private sector. He therefore combines the kind of expertise in both public and private sector development that the deputy felt was appropriate for this job, and that is why he was chosen to do it.

ELECTRICITY DEMAND AND SUPPLY

Mr Owen: I have a question for the Minister of Energy. Recently I have been looking at forecasts for this province which indicate that in the next decade there is expected to be a doubling of hydro consumption for Ontario. At the same time, I have been looking at the northeastern United States desperately searching even now for more hydro supplies and looking increasingly to Canada to meet that need.

These forecasts are indicating that it could have a serious effect on pushing up the price of hydro in our province and reducing availability of hydro at the same time in Ontario. Will the minister share with us today the forecasts of this province’s future requirements and does he have any indication or information as to how and where these requirements are going to be met?

Hon Mr Wong: I would like to thank the member for Simcoe Centre for his question. Let me say first that for more than half a century in Ontario the amount of electricity and the capacity has grown from very small numbers to a current in-service capacity of 28,000 megawatts. What we are thinking of adding to this capacity between now and the turn of the century, in the next 10 to 11 years, is approximately 9,000 megawatts, which is another one-third increase. This is a very significant increase for the people in the industry in the province.

In answering the second part of the honourable member’s question, there are a number of ways in which we can address that problem to make sure that we have reliable supplies of electricity for the province. One, of course, is additional nonutility generation. Other considerations are purchases from neighbouring provinces; the addition of major new generating stations; new capacity at presently mothballed stations, and of course the acceleration of the demand management and electrical efficiency programs.

Mr Owen: The debate has gone on for some time as to the pros and cons of various sources of energy. We have had arguments, pro and con, about coal-fired stations, about importing future power needs, as has been suggested by the minister in his answer, and about natural gas and nuclear energy sources. But one of the possible sources that I have heard from people in Ontario that is available and we have not entirely looked at or explored fully is independent generation. It may not supply all the needs, but Ontario Hydro may not have all the answers either.

By way of supplementary, would the minister comment on the possible future of independent generation and whether there are any programs currently available from his ministry to support independent energy producers outside, above and beyond Ontario Hydro?

Hon Mr Wong: Yes, on the whole subject of independent generation, we believe this is important to the province. While Ontario Hydro remains the largest and the main supplier of electricity to the province, the province does recognize the importance of independent power generation to our system. Small hydro and industrial cogeneration would be two specific examples. The ministry and the government are currently working on a parallel generation policy paper which hopefully will tie together all of the elements of our supply and demand system and the different participants in the system.

With respect to targets, I think this is important. Ontario Hydro has indicated that it plans to help to facilitate 1,000 extra megawatts of power by the year 2000. The government has looked at these figures and said, “We’d like to see that 1,000 done sooner than the year 2000 and we believe that an additional 1,000 could also be completed.”

EVENTS IN CHINA

Mr Reville: My question is to the Premier. When terrible things happen and there is a loss of life in other places, it has been common for this government to take the lead in helping to organize the assistance that its people are so eager to provide. I was expecting the Minister of Energy to make such an offer in his statement.

I wonder if the Premier will now commit his government to providing the organizational assistance to our large Chinese community and other Ontarians who would like to respond to the calamity in Beijing.

Hon Mr Peterson: Let me say the honourable member’s suggestion is a good one and a constructive one. The question is always how we best respond in these circumstances.

As my honourable friend knows, Ontarians have responded generously to a wide variety of tragedies around the world, in Armenia, in Jamaica and in Mexico. We have built schools, we have provided immediate relief goods and reconstruction materials and have always tried to work with the communities in that regard. At this moment it may be happening. It is not clear to me if there is a particular group in the Chinese community that is organizing to assist. If so, I do not know how they have chosen to assist.

Let me tell my honourable friend that I will take his suggestion seriously and share the information with my colleagues in the House if there are things we could do. At this moment, frankly, I do not have the answer to that. I think, as is shared by all members of this House, we look at what is going on there with a sense of deep futility and wish we could do something to solve these things. Maybe there are ways in which at least we can help certain human beings.

Mr Reville: I appreciate the Premier’s answer. I think there may be some ways we can help. I understand money is being spontaneously contributed, even as we sit here.

I have just been advised of a problem that I would like to share with the Premier. I understand that some Chinese nationals who are studying here in Ontario are concerned that because of their political activity in connection with the democracy struggle, the Beijing regime may cut their funds off. I would like the Premier to consider at the same time setting up a fund of compassionate assistance for those students, if in fact their fears are realized.

Hon Mr Peterson: I was not aware of that. I take the honourable member’s suggestion very seriously. We obviously, from a compassion point of view, want to do whatever we can to help those students who are here obviously wondering about their own families in their own country at the present time.

I should tell my honourable friend, since I am on my feet, that we do have 21 Ontario students in China at the present time. To the best of my knowledge, contact or at least attempted contact has been made with all of them. We are trying to assist them. Some are being evacuated. We are trying to tend to our responsibilities in that regard in conjunction with the Canadian government. If my honourable friend is interested, I can bring him up to date on the progress. As I am sure he will know, it has not been easy.

His idea is a good one. I will discuss it with my colleagues. If he has any more suggestions on how we can respond in a sensitive and humane way, I would be delighted to hear them.

CHAIRMAN OF ONTARIO PLACE CORP

Mr McLean: My question is for the Premier and it has to do with Patricia Starr, chairman of Ontario Place Corp.

Following recent allegations that she approved several political payments, including one to the Premier’s brother, when she had sole signing authority for the National Council of Jewish Women of Canada, the Toronto section’s capital fund, it is not appropriate that she is currently on leave. Why has the Premier not demanded her resignation?

Hon Mr Peterson: I am very aware of the allegations that have been made. We have discussed it in the House. The public trustee is looking into all of this and we obviously cannot support anybody doing anything illegal or improper. She is in a leave-of-absence situation pending a resolution of these matters.

Mr McLean: The Premier does not seem to appreciate the seriousness of Ms Starr’s actions. Because of her own political payments, the National Council of Jewish Women of Canada, Toronto section, could very well lose its charitable status. Her alleged political payments are a direct contravention of the federal Income Tax Act. Does he not think Ms Starr should vacate her government-appointed position at Ontario Place immediately and permanently?

Hon Mr Peterson: I think I have dealt with that. As the member knows, there is a suggestion of a number of political payments, including to a number of Conservatives as well, out of that fund. I say to my honourable friend that he, I know, would want to make sure that the facts are clearly established. There can be no fear or favour in that regard and they all have to come out. I think my honourable friend would say she has taken a leave of absence and has nothing to do with Ontario Place, as I said, pending a resolution of these matters. I think that is fair in the circumstances.

MINING

Mr Campbell: My question is for the Minister of Mines. During the first session of this assembly, the minister introduced a green paper on the Ontario Mining Act. Various government officials and ministries, as well as client groups, were asked for their comments and views. Can the minister provide this House with a progress report on how the consultation process has been received?

Hon Mr Conway: Very happily. I want to say to my friend the member for Sudbury and to other members of the House who I know share his interest in mining matters that we have had a very positive response over the last number of months to the green paper which contained the policy proposals that the government is advancing for purposes of a new Mining Act. I believe we have had something like 86 --

Mr Pouliot: The old one is better.

Hon Mr Conway: We have heard, I say to my friend the member for Lake Nipigon (Mr Pouliot), from some 86 groups, ranging from prospectors to mining companies to tourist developers to a number of other individuals well known to the member. We are at the present moment reviewing those submissions. It is my plan and my hope to have a new Mining Act before this assembly later this year.

I can assure my friend that we are going to make every effort to accommodate the very constructive criticism that the discussion to date has provided and I look forward to his ongoing interest and to the interest of all members when that legislation is introduced later this year.

Mr Campbell: Given what the minister has said, can he advise the House as to perhaps when in the future the Mining Act will be introduced?

Hon Mr Conway: I will not say “in the early fall” because I know that excites my friends opposite, but we are making very good progress. I want to say most sincerely that the consultation has provided very good feedback. I myself participated in a number of public forums in northern Ontario over the course of this winter. I want to say to my friends opposite that it would be my hope and my wish to have that new Mining Act before the assembly during this current sitting.

TEMAGAMI DISTRICT RESOURCES

Mr Wildman: I have a question for the Minister of Natural Resources related to the arrest of several people on the Goulard Road near Temagami yesterday and the complete failure of the government to resolve this matter related to land use in the Temagami area.

The minister is quoted as saying that these people, these protesters, could have helped resolve matters by agreeing to be represented on the Temagami Advisory Council. In light of that, can the minister explain how he expects anyone to have any faith in the Temagami Advisory Council, considering that the council has accomplished absolutely nothing of substance in developing the so-called model management area in the full year since it was formed?

Hon Mr Kerrio: I am quite surprised that a member from northern Ontario does not really understand this issue. In fact, if he were to understand it, he would know that this government is doing more to develop model management. By going forward with our class environmental assessment, we are looking at how the future of the forests will be attended after the class environmental assessment has taken place.

We are doing things that have never been done before. The area we are talking about, as the member well knows, is an area that has been harvested for many years. We moved people out of an area to make a true wilderness park to the north, and in order for this to take place moved them into an area where it was accepted and licensed, and when we had some difficulty, structured the Temagami Advisory Council to set up a model management for an area that had some question about how it should be harvested.

I am sure the member would understand that when those people decided to blockade instead of being part of the model management, it is a big disappointment to me. It should be to the honourable member for the same reason, that we are trying to do things in the forestry direction that have not been done before, manage our forests responsibly, and we can only do it if people participate on that side, which I have asked them to do.

Mr Wildman: The minister seems confused. At one point he says he is waiting until after the EA to develop the model management approach, the environmental assessment of forestry, but at the same time he says the advisory council is doing something. Can he explain what the advisory council has done in the last 12 months to address the concerns of the aboriginal people in Temagami, what it has achieved with regard to environmental assessment of the Red Squirrel road extension, and what it has achieved in dealing with industrial restructuring in the Temagami area so that we can indeed have a model of sustainable resource development? What has it done in those three areas?

The Speaker: The member has already placed three questions. Minister?

Hon Mr Kerrio: The member is suggesting that I do not quite understand what he is saying. Sometimes that is very true; I have difficulty with what he is saying. What I brought into focus here was the determination of this government to enter a long-term direction of where we go with our forest, sustainable yield; that the class environmental assessment is one facet and the addressing of the Temagami Advisory Council is another one.

Good things are happening out there in the sense that we are trying to bring people on side to be able to address the question. We have done that in these areas. Is the member suggesting, by any measure, that Dr John Daniel from Laurentian University is not doing the job? Is that what he is suggesting? I tell him that that was a good appointment, as was Dr Baskerville, as we are doing self-examination on how we manage the forest, and opposition members just cannot keep up to the speed --

The Speaker: Thank you.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. I am sorry I cannot allow the member for Algoma to answer that question. New question, the member for Leeds-Grenville.

ESCAPE OF PRISONER

Mr Runciman: My question is to the Minister of Correctional Services. The people of this province are more than a little concerned about the escape of Frederick Merrill from the Don Jail last Wednesday. As we know, Merrill is one of the most dangerous criminals in North America, with a long history of sexual assaults, beatings and murder. He has also escaped from a number of American prisons over the years and made two previous escape attempts from the Don Jail.

Can the minister tell the people of Ontario why a man with this kind of background was able to escape from the Don Jail in Toronto?

Hon Mr Ramsay: I would like to thank the member for his question. Obviously, there is great concern in our ministry and among Ontarians throughout the province about this escape that happened last week. Immediately upon that escape, our day shift people stayed and contributed to the search in the valley. Also, we sent an investigator to the scene immediately, and I am awaiting his report.

Mr Runciman: As usual, we do not get much of an answer. The people of Ontario are wondering why security was so sloppy that this dangerous and violent man, with a long history of jailbreaks and jailbreak attempts, was able to escape from a correctional facility in Ontario.

Can the minister tell us if he is satisfied with the level of security that was present when Mr Merrill escaped, and if not, can he tell the House what specific steps have been taken to ensure that this kind of escape will not happen again?

Hon Mr Ramsey: I would like to give a little background to the member with regard to his question. As the member will know, this is the first escape from this facility in more than 30 years. It is one of the most secure facilities in Ontario. The member should also know there was a one-on-one supervisory situation there, and our initial investigation shows that this was an extraordinary escape, as the member knows, from a roof five storeys high, through barbed wire and razor wire.

This particular exercise area on the roof of the Don Jail, five storeys high, qualified to all the criteria of our maximum-security areas that, as I have said before, has not seen an escape in 30 years.

TRANSIT SERVICES

Mr Callahan: I have a question for the Treasurer. My riding in Brampton presently has limited am and pm service to Toronto. The difficulty that exists is that when it could have been done for $10 million, the former Conservative government failed to doubletrack the rail between Brampton and the Bramalea connection. It now would cost $100 million.

I was a bit shocked at a recent transit seminar to discover that the fuel tax the Conservative government presently collects from Ontario alone is $1.7 billion. Of that, $820 million is spent in Canada, without one nickel being spent in Ontario. I wonder if the Treasurer can confirm those facts as being accurate.

Hon R. F. Nixon: Actually, the question stands by itself as an extremely informative contribution to the deliberations in the House.

Mr Callahan: I am not sure if that is a yes or a no, but by way of supplementary --

The Speaker: Are you going to try a supplementary?

Mr Callahan: -- if I am correct and if these facts are accurate and if those moneys could be shaken out of the federal Conservative tree, would those moneys be limited in their spending ability to simply underpasses or could they be used for the doubletracking that is so necessary to give the people from my riding not only more than just limited am and pm service but also service to the SkyDome, which I understand they will not have?

Hon R. F. Nixon: I think the honourable member is very sensible and well within his rights to suggest through this House that the Minister of Finance for Canada should allocate the funds that he receives from Ontario by his gas taxes, which we all know are higher than ours here. We all also know that he does not build any roads at all, and I think it would be quite appropriate if he doubletracked the honourable member’s transit service.

ASSISTANCE FOR THE DISABLED

Mr Morin-Strom: I have a question for the Minister of Community and Social Services with regard to vocational rehabilitation services in Ontario. This being National Access Awareness Week, one would have hoped that the minister would have made initiatives that address some of the serious concerns the disabled have with respect to long waiting lists and lack of services in assisting them to get jobs through vocational rehabilitation services. Waiting lists in the province are typically anywhere from four to eight months long; in some places higher, northern Ontario particularly. In Sudbury, it is over 27 months. In Sault Ste Marie, the waiting list is over 30 months right now.

What has the minister done, with respect to this issue that was brought to his attention a number of months ago, to see that those services are made available to the disabled?

Hon Mr Sweeney: As a result of that situation having been brought to my attention, my regional office in Sudbury has allocated one additional staff person to that office to help reduce that load and has reallocated funds from its budget to the Sudbury office to help reduce the load. That has happened since the last issue was raised.

Mr Morin-Strom: The communities in Sault Ste Marie have been pressing on this issue, and the minister received a number of letters back in late January and early February demanding a change that would impact on the waiting list in our community. The minister has not responded to those letters and has not done anything about the waiting list which still remains today at more than 30 months for the disabled in Sault Ste Marie.

Will the minister make a commitment that the disabled will get access to those services in a reasonable time from today?

Hon Mr Sweeney: Part of the difficulty is defining exactly what a waiting list is. In a number of cases, my office in Sault Ste Marie has indicated to me that the residents of that community have been seen on fairly short notice with respect to their original assessment. The difficulty then follows with respect to the time that it takes to actually get a program in place, and that depends to a large extent on when the assessment is done in the calendar year or in the school year when some of these programs are made available.

I will certainly look into the observation that letters have been received by my office and not responded to. That certainly is not the normal practice in my office, but I will look into it.

ACCESS TO INFORMATION

Mr Sterling: I have a question for the Minister of Government Services. We have recently heard about a case whereby an official in his ministry forwarded to a patient in the Penetanguishene Mental Health Centre detailed plans of that establishment. The psychiatric establishment in Penetanguishene is an establishment for the most dangerous individuals in our society. It includes many people who have committed murder and many people who have committed sexual, violent crimes.

Can the minister explain to me why his ministry would forward to an individual in that institution detailed plans which he may have used or other patients may have used to escape from that institution?

Hon Mr Patten: The member for Carleton, of course, talked about sending detailed plans of that establishment. First of all, it was not detailed plans of the establishment; it was in fact information related to some modifications, some reparations to windows in that particular institution.

The member refers to the individual in a certain way. I might remind him that the individual in that institution is not a prisoner. That individual is a patient and under the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, we cannot refuse individuals who have the right to ask for information.

Given the situation that the member identifies, I would like to point out that I am asking my officials to review this total process in the event that in some instances there may be information that might have something to do with security. In this particular instance, it was deemed that the information in no way could assist an individual to leave that institution.

Mr Sterling: The minister first states that it is not a criminal who is in the institution, that everyone is a patient. That is true. They are patients there because they are found insane in front of a court and are unable to stand trial for crimes that have been committed in our society. That is why they are patients. That is why they are in this very, very maximum security institution.

Second, the minister states that he cannot refuse under the freedom-of-information act. That is wrong. He can refuse if the security of the institution is in jeopardy. He has every right to refuse under an exemption under the freedom-of-information act.

What can the minister do to assure us that he will not be forwarding information to patients in the psychiatric hospital which will give them information such as how long it will take them to saw the iron bars off the windows? If that is not information which should not be shared, I do not know what is.

The Speaker: The member is now into a speech. The response?

Hon Mr Patten: The member asked the question, what will we do in the future? I have just said that I will be reviewing the requests where we feel there may be limitations that in fact may not serve the best interests of the security of the public. I will be doing this with my officials also in relation to the commissioner’s office and with Management Board which has the overall responsibility for this particular policy.

PETITIONS

TEACHERS’ SUPERANNUATION

Miss Roberts: “To the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

“Whereas the government of Ontario in its discussions with the Ontario Teachers’ Federation on amendments to the Teachers’ Superannuation Act has refused to allow an equal partnership between teachers and government in management of the pension fund, establishment of an acceptable contribution increase, benefit adjustments, equitable treatment of future surpluses and a satisfactory dispute resolution process,

“We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly to insist that the Treasurer of Ontario negotiate with the Ontario Teachers’ Federation towards an equitable settlement.”

I have a petition signed by 58 persons who teach in my riding and, pursuant to the rules, I have affixed my signature to it.

Mr Morin: I have a petition signed by 25 people regarding amendments to the Teachers’ Superannuation Act.

WORKERS’ COMPENSATION

Ms Bryden: I have a petition to the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario, regarding Bill 162. It has been signed by 10 people and I have signed it myself. The petition says:

“We, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

“We urge the Liberal government to scrap Bill 162,

An Act to amend the Workers’ Compensation Act,

“Because Bill 162 contains the most significant changes to the Ontario system of workers’ compensation contemplated for many years, and yet, as was confirmed through the public hearings on the bill, was developed without an adequate process of public consultation with the stakeholders; and

“Because Bill 162 represents an attack on injured workers and their families and all those people who have fought over the years to achieve fairness and justice for injured workers and their families; and

“Because Bill 162 will eliminate the current lifetime pension for lifetime disability and replace it with a dual award system combining a lump sum and actual wage loss award benefits, that has been rejected by injured workers, their advocacy groups, community legal workers and lawyers working on their behalf and by the trade union movement, since it was first proposed for implementation in Ontario by the 1980 Weiler report and the Conservative government’s 1981 white paper; and

“Because Bill 162 virtually ignores the devastating critique and recommendations of the Majesky-Minna task force report on vocational rehabilitation that was submitted to the Minister of Labour and suppressed by the Liberal government until April 1988; and

“Because Bill 162 gives legislative form to the unacceptable and reactionary policy of restricting access to supplement awards announced by the Workers’ Compensation Board in 1987; and

“Because through Bill 162, injured workers are made subject to increased discretionary power at the hands of the Workers’ Compensation Board and made subject to ever more intrusive and demeaning assaults on their dignity, their privacy and their right to fair and just treatment.”

I am pleased to present this petition.

TEACHERS’ SUPERANNUATION

Mr Jackson: “To the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

“Whereas the government of Ontario in its discussions with the Ontario Teachers’ Federation on amendments to the Teachers’ Superannuation Act has refused to allow an equal partnership between teachers and government in management of the pension fund, establishment of an acceptable contribution increase, benefit adjustments, equitable treatment of future surpluses and a satisfactory dispute resolution process,

“We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly to insist that the Treasurer of Ontario negotiate with the Ontario Teachers’ Federation towards an equitable settlement.”

This is signed by the staff at Maplehurst Public School in the great riding of Burlington South. It has my signature and support.

Mr Dietsch: I have a petition to the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

“We, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

“To amend the Teachers’ Superannuation Act, 1983, in order that all teachers who retired prior to 31 May 1982 have their pensions recalculated on the best five years rather than at the present seven or 10 years.

“This proposed amendment would make the five-year criteria applicable to all retired teachers and would eliminate the present inequitable treatment.”

I have affixed my signature to the petition.

HOME CARE

Mr Owen: I have a petition addressed to the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

“We, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

“We support the expansion of home care and visiting nurses services as the most cost-efficient mode of health care delivery. We therefore want our government to adequately fund the Victorian Order of Nurses.”

It is signed by 304 residents of my area and it is signed under my signature.

WORKERS’ COMPENSATION

Mr Kormos: I have a petition addressed to the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario.

“We, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

“We care about injured workers. We protest the Minister of Labour’s proposal to change the law that would take away injured workers’ rights to permanent disability pensions when they are permanently disabled; that would do almost nothing about the miserable compensation of existing injured workers and their widows, and that would leave the injured workers of the future worse off. Workers who are killed or injured in their work deserve much better treatment than this.”

It is signed by Gerard Bisson of Welland and five others; I have signed it as well.

TEACHERS’ SUPERANNUATION

Mr Reycraft: I have eight petitions signed by 122 individuals in the riding of Wentworth North. The text of the petition is exactly the same as that of petitions read by the member for Elgin (Miss Roberts) and the member for Burlington South (Mr Jackson), and I have attached my signature.

I have four other similar petitions, signed by 31 residents from Essex South, 40 residents from Renfrew North, 36 people from Hamilton Centre and one signed by 11 people from the riding of Brant-Haldimand, and I have attached my signature to all of those.

I also have two other petitions, one signed by 18 individuals from Brant-Haldimand and the other signed by 12 people from Scarborough East. The text of the petitions is the same as that read by the member for St Catharines-Brock (Mr Dietsch) this afternoon, and I have attached my signature to those.

NATUROPATHY

Mr Daigeler: I have a petition signed by some 50 residents of the Ottawa-Carleton area. It reads as follows:

“To the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

“We, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the Parliament of Ontario as follows:

“Whereas it is our constitutional right to have available and to choose the health care system of our preference;

“And

whereas naturopathy has had self-governing status in Ontario for more than 42 years;

“We petition the Ontario Legislature to call on the government to introduce legislation that would guarantee naturopaths the right to practise their art and science to the fullest without prejudice or harassment.”

TEACHERS’ SUPERANNUATION

Mr Allen: “To the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

“Whereas the government of Ontario in its discussions with the Ontario Teachers’ Federation on amendments to the Teachers’ Superannuation Act has refused to allow an equal partnership between teachers and government in management of the pension fund, establishment of an acceptable contribution increase, benefit adjustments, equitable treatment of future surpluses and a satisfactory dispute resolution process,

“We, the undersigned, petition the Legislative Assembly to insist that the Treasurer of Ontario negotiate with the Ontario Teachers’ Federation towards an equitable settlement.”

I have four petitions that read in similar fashion, signed by 63 persons who teach in my riding, and I have affixed my signature to each of them.

Mr Poirier: I have four distinct petitions pertaining to the Teachers’ Superannuation Act. They are signed by 95 people, and I have affixed my signature. They are addressed to the Honour-able the Lieutenant Governor.

MOTIONS

COMMITTEE BUSINESS

Hon Mr Conway moved that the standing committee on general government be authorized to review the final progress reports to the Minister of the Environment of Inco, Falconbridge, Algoma Steel and Ontario Hydro on acid rain abatement programs on 15, 22 and 29 June 1989.

Motion agreed to.

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

Hon Mr Conway moved that notwithstanding standing order 2(a), the House shall meet at 1:30 pm on Thursday, 8 June 1989 and that Mrs Sullivan and Mr Ballinger exchange places in the order of precedence for private members’ public business.

Hon Mr Conway: I would like to very briefly speak to this just so all honourable members know that this means that, by agreement, we will not be sitting on Thursday morning for private members’ public business.

Motion agreed to.

INTRODUCTION OF BILL

FORT ERIE COMMUNITY YOUNG MEN’S CHRISTIAN ASSOCIATION ACT, 1989

Mr Haggerty moved first reading of Bill Pr 18,

An Act respecting the Fort Erie Community Young Men’s Christian Association.

Motion agreed to.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Hon Mr Conway: Before I call the first order today, which will be the 11th order, second reading of Bill 5, I want to indicate to members in the House that the House leaders met earlier today. We have decided that for the next few days the business of the House shall be the second reading of Bill 5,

An Act to amend the Education Act, the heritage-language legislation, after which we will move on to the insurance legislation, Bill 10, just so members know that we have got some business planned for the next few days. With that brief introduction, Mr Speaker, I call the 11th order.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

EDUCATION AMENDMENT ACT, 1989 / LOI DE 1989 MODIFIANT LA

LOI SUR L’ÉDUCATION

Hon Mr Ward moved second reading of Bill 5,

An Act to amend the Education Act.

Hon Mr Ward: Briefly, members will know that last October the government announced its intention to bring forward an amendment to the Education Act to make the provision of heritage-language classes mandatory in all school board jurisdictions in this province upon the request of the parents of 25 qualified students.

Members will know that over the course of the past several years heritage-language classes have grown very extensively in this province. In 1987 alone over 90,000 students benefited from instruction in heritage-language classes offered by some 72 board jurisdictions in this province.

The legislation we are proposing today comes about after a great deal of public discussion, an extensive period of consultation on the basis of a proposal that was put forward by the government House leader during his time as Minister of Education.

I look forward very much to the comments and input of the opposition critics during the course of this debate. I understand there is some sense that this bill should be exposed to some committee hearings. I would be more than willing to ensure that is done. I also understand that the standing committee on social development would be interested and possibly available to consider the bill next Monday, and at the conclusion of the debate I will ask for unanimous consent to waive standing order 63 so that in fact the discussion can take place at the social development committee on Monday if the committee sees fit.

M. R. F. Johnston : J’aimerais dire quelques mots sur cette question importante des langues d’origine en Ontario.

But first I would like to say that my remarks may not be as short as the bill is. The bill is essentially one paragraph, but in that paragraph there is an enormous amount of history, which I would like to dwell on a little bit; there is an awful lot of politics, which I also want to talk about, and there is some implicit need to discuss pedagogy. I want to use this opportunity as a chance to do those things.

First, I think it is appropriate that on behalf of my party I am the one who rises to speak on this, not just because I am the Education critic but because this is essentially the Scarborough amendment. This is the amendment which says to recalcitrant boards, namely Scarborough, that they should necessarily have to participate in heritage-language programming in their schools and provide those programs to the various communities that request them.

The reason it is appropriate that I should rise is not only that I am the member for Scarborough West but also that since 1981 I have been in opposition to the Scarborough Board of Education’s point of view on heritage languages and I have futilely tried on a number of occasions with various groups, the Greek and Chinese communities in my riding especially, to get that board to see the light of day and to move, as others have, to increase the heritage-language prospects in the education system there.

I am happy that this day is here and that this fall, after we have dealt with this legislation, the board in Scarborough will have to respond to requests that come forward from groups of parents of children of Chinese, Macedonian, Lithuanian or other descent and provide programming for them within the school structure and with financing, for the first time.

Scarborough has provided programs. I think it is really important to know that. I am not saying that Scarborough has said that these programs cannot take place in the schools. In fact, as I recall from the presentations that were made before one of our committees over the years, there are something like 30 languages being taught in 297 classes in Scarborough -- at least, there were at that time, a year and a bit ago -- but they were taught by the communities themselves. They were taught, often using school facilities but not as part of the government’s heritage-language programming and the funding that has been available since 1975-76.

It is also important to say that since I have been elected, this issue has been of importance to me on a larger scale than just the Scarborough amendment. This party has had a history since the mid-1970s of pushing very hard for a major change in the way we look at language instruction in Ontario. I think that people who have sat in this House before us -- Odoardo Di Santo, Tony Grande and others -- have taken a major role in moving forward the public debate around how we teach languages in Ontario.

In some ways I find my duty today is to make sure that what we have here is not the end of a long process but merely one small stage dealing with one small matter, which is the Scarborough amendment, but that we look at it in the context of a much greater need to re-evaluate the role of language instruction in the province and to make sure that a process is under way which allows us to do that.

Let’s just look at the history of this a little bit. Private members’ bills have come forward in this House over the years, in 1982 and 1987. In 1987 we held public hearings here just around this time of the year on Mr Grande’s bill, Bill 80. Both his bill and his predecessor’s bill, put forward by Mr Di Santo in 1982, received the support in principle of Liberal members of the House.

In Mr Di Santo’s time that meant that the opposition parties agreed and the governing party disagreed. Mrs Stephenson, as members may recall, was Minister of Education in those days and talked about the extension of heritage language as a balkanization process within our educational system. I will come back to that as we come forward.

In 1987, in a period of minority government just prior to the last election, the governing party -- the Liberal Party at that time -- and ourselves gave support in principle to Mr Grande’s initiative under Bill 80 and it was referred out to the standing committee on social development, of which I was chairman at that time. The government had no particular policy of its own at that stage, as may be recalled. This brings me to the question of the politics of these things.

Hon Mr Conway: You were such a good chairman. You were so balanced.

Mr R. F. Johnston: The government House leader played such an eminent role at that time in these matters that I think it is important to review exactly how this tiny amendment has come before us today.

Mr Grande’s bill came closer and closer to actually being dealt with by the social development committee and our hearings were being established for 11 June 1987. The first hearings were to be held on that day. What should happen but on the Monday of that very week the government House leader, who is now checking an old Hansard to make sure I am correct, introduced a yellow paper. The colour was auspiciously appropriate for a number of reasons.

Miss Roberts: Bright, cheery, forthright.

Mr R. F. Johnston: “Bright, cheery,” etc. “Forthright” is going too far, but bright and cheery it is. Within the document that was put forward, which by the way was called, “A Proposal for Action” -- I found that quite delightful at the time and especially over the next two years when no action took place on Ontario’s heritage-languages program. It prompted a number of proposals, most of which have now been acted upon by the government in recent times. All are very limited in scope and the key element within them being the notion that perhaps these programs should be made mandatory and all boards should be required to participate.

This was brought forward at the same time as the committee was about to try to deal with Mr Grande’s bill. Mr Grande’s bill did not deal merely with the matter of the Scarborough amendment and some extra assistance in terms of training and other kinds of matters. It talked about some very fundamental principles about language instruction.

Mr Reycraft: I do recall a difference.

Mr R. F. Johnston: Yes, the government whip also played a major role at the time. I have the Hansard here and I would be very happy to bring it forward and some of his astute questioning of witnesses as we go through this bill.

But Mr Grande’s bill dealt with issues of transitional instruction of people in their own languages. It dealt with integrating the heritage-languages programs within the school day. In fact, it raised fundamentally important questions for us at this time in our history around what the role of language is in terms of education.

Unfortunately, the government yellow paper, dealing in a much more limited fashion, curtailed the debate. It basically said that even though the government had accepted in principle Mr Grande’s bill just a few weeks before, that it in fact wanted to move the discussion into this much more limited approach.

Hon Mr Curling: Broader.

Mr R. F. Johnston: The other member from Scarborough opposite tells me that it is broader. In fact, it is not broader. I will read the limited points of view if the members want the embarrassment of them being read out. I am told to dispense by the parliamentary assistant because he understands that these only deal with such things as training and other kinds of matters and do not deal with fundamental questions about the status of heritage language.

What the government did by putting out the yellow paper at that time and suggesting that it wanted its responses back by September of that year so it could take some action very quickly -- of course, it did not take action at all, we know, until very recently and in the limited fashion it has -- was move the debate into this more restricted notion, in my view a very bad concept in educational terms.

The other day I was reading a quote by a famous British politician who was talking of politics. He said the following. He was referring to some members. He said, “Call them the mules of politics: without pride of ancestry or hope of posterity.” It strikes me from time to time that government, not just this one but many governments, are, in fact, mules. They have very little notion about either the history of politics and where we come from and, in concepts, where we are going and what we are speaking to in large terms.

Surely in the 1970s and 1980s it was the ideal time for governments here to reflect upon our education process and its appropriateness to our new demographic reality. I just want to tell members about some of the things which people came before us to tell us in the 1987 hearings. Rabbi Witty was here. He told the committee that people from over 128 countries live in Ontario, that 80 to 90 languages have come with those people as part of their cultures, and that we offered, in our heritage-language courses in Ontario at that time, 62 or 63 different languages that were being put forward.

That changed reality over the last 40 years, and especially in the last 25 years, is something which I think we really need to reflect on in very fundamental ways when we look at our educational institutions and the approach we take to education. Not many groups have been doing this in profound ways. Instead, what we have had is a kind of tinkering with programs that I think makes us mules.

It allows us to reduce class sizes in grades 1 and 2 without knowing why we are doing it, to extend senior kindergarten without really thinking through what the implications are, and to only bring forward the Scarborough amendment in the face of an enormously changed reality of what our province is all about.

The board of education in the city of Toronto is one of the groups that has tried to come to grips with this issue over the years. As early as 1975, the board put forward a working group it had on multiculturalism. What it said has jarred me and made me really want to re-evaluate why I believe what I believe about heritage languages and its need for changed status.

That reality so shocked them that they said, “We have to make our institution coherent with our society.” Surely it is one of the great problems we have in this House: that the representation we have here does not reflect our society. The white Anglo-Saxon male, who is still predominant in this chamber, is not a reflection of what we have in our society.

I do not want to go into the details about this particular institution, but if members think about how vital it is that our education system reflect the reality of our society, I think they can see why it is a little disappointing to somebody like me at the moment that the only government initiative on heritage language, which is long overdue, is to bring in the Scarborough amendment. It is not looking at it in the context of language policy in general and what this means in terms of where the province should or should not be going.

Over the years, I have seen a change in the way the Liberal government and the Liberal Party has looked at these matters. I was looking back over the quotes from 1975 and 1976 debates and the strength of opinion that was put forward by people like the present Minister of the Environment (Mr Bradley) and others at that time around heritage language. I found them interesting, but I found I did not even have to go back that far to find a very different perspective on heritage language than we are seeing now under this present government.

When I turn back to how it dealt with Mr Di Santo’s bill in November 1982, often in private members’ hour, the present Treasurer (Mr R. F. Nixon), when he was sitting on this side, would participate. He was a great person for being in the House at all times, loves this institution enormously and respects that hour very much. He participated, I thought, very eloquently about the whole question of language instruction. If I might just make a few quotes from the member just to indicate that. He said:

“The approach to language instruction in the last two decades in this province has been a disaster, in my opinion....

“One of the biggest changes in the last 20 years and a bit longer has been the immigration of people with other cultures and other languages into the community. We have not turned this to our advantage.... It has been a shame that many young people, in particular -- not so many now, perhaps, as a decade ago -- have not seen fit to keep up the knowledge of a second or third language and a knowledge and respect for their culture.”

He talked in these terms as somebody who came from an area which he admitted was rural, was not the metropolitan area with the reality that I was talking about a few minutes ago for the Toronto Board of Education, but he attacked very strongly at that point Miss Stephenson’s approach on this bill and the need to start looking at language instruction differently.

Now he had come through the system a little bit earlier than I had and had noted that language instruction was not that useful. I also recall my language instruction at the secondary level. I took German, French and Latin. I am pressed to give any kind of a quotation in Latin at this stage. I had one line in German that I use and have basically --

Mr Reycraft: Tempus fugit.

Mr R. F. Johnston: Tempus fugit is perhaps the government’s notion. On the other hand, tempus was standing still here for the last few days, as members may recall. We have shown, in fact, that we can defy the laws of physics here and make time stand still and not only be relative.

I would say that if you look at the language of instruction -- French as a core language subject -- as it was in the early 1960s when I was in high school and you look at the results today, it is my opinion that we have not made up much ground in terms of how that is being taught.

I would differentiate very strongly between that and our immersion courses and our extended French courses, which I think are showing some signs of success. I personally have some difficulties with the way immersion is happening because I see it becoming a very class-biased development in our society at the moment, where increasingly working-class kids may start off in immersion classes but very quickly drop out. It is the yuppie children who are going on.

In fact, I recently received a letter, which I was going to read into the record today but could not gain permission as yet from the person who sent it to me, from a person who is lamenting the fact that she felt compelled to withdraw her child from French immersion because of the biases she felt were presently in the system.

In terms of the effects in terms of pedagogy, there is little doubt that those people who do stick the route and stay in immersion or participate in extended French programs are doing well,

whereas core French I think is just as successful now as it was with me in the 1960s, which is to say it is a disaster.

Mr Pouliot: It depends on the student.

Mr R. F. Johnston: I disagree. My good friend the member for Lake Nipigon says it depends on the student. In point of fact, it tends not to have depended much on the student at all. That approach to using one class per week or whatever in French core has been shown to be an ineffective pedagogical tool which unfortunately we are still very much locked into and are not looking at other options for. I would suggest that is problematic.

M. Pouliot : Je les suis en anglais, moi.

M. R. F. Johnston : Oui, nous sommes au courant des capacités linguistiques du député de Lac Nipigon, et c’est formidable. Seulement, je crois que le député a appris son anglais dans les mines de l’Ontario et non pas à l’école. Mais ça, c’est une autre histoire.

Le Vice-Président : Bien sûr, le député de Scarborough-Ouest va faire son discours par l’intermédiaire du vice-président de l’Assemblée ?

M. R. F. Johnston : Oui, il m’est difficile de répondre aux commentaires de mon collègue, qui est assis derrière moi, si on peut dire.

This brings me to the question of why our province is so stuck on language at this point. Why is it doing so little on it?

I remember distinctly the presentation before the committee by Dr Cummins from the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education who, of all Canadian researchers, has done the most in terms of language and its role in education. I remember his talking about the pedagogical reasons for moving, talking about how other provinces have done it, giving us all sorts of information that seemed to me to be crying out for a major study by the government, a major process to be developed to get people to look finally at the role of language.

I was reading the other day some remarks by Noam Chomsky from his essays on language and politics. He made some very interesting points on this that really need to be thought through by our society at this point, because he linked pedagogical concerns with notions about how we overcome racism and how we overcome our fear of other groups and bigotries that have gone on for so long in our society in the past through the ignorance of our societies. He made some wonderful comments. I would like to refer to one or two, if I might.

He said: “I think there is fair evidence that a child can develop a native command of several languages with no difficulty if he is presented with each language in a particular situation. There are overwhelming similarities that unite the human race as a species and the varieties exist within minor variations, the depth and specific character of which it is possible for us to understand.”

He basically was saying that certainly there are differences among us, but if you actually start to learn language and the nuance of language and, as one great figure said, language is the dress of thought and is so important to our makeup that you then start to dwell not on the differences but on those things that link us and make us more understandable to each other.

When you look at society today and the comments I know the Premier (Mr Peterson) has made around racism and problems of lack of tolerance in our society today, you say that perhaps we have some tools here that could be enhanced. Yet all we can do is take this one tool and say that outside of the school day, on weekends, all boards now must provide it if there is a certain number of parents -- we can quibble over whether that should be 20, 25, 13 or 15 as it is in some jurisdictions -- that certain number can access the program.

I do not think that deals with these fundamental questions about what the role of education should be. I think it is important to understand that other people are doing this differently and that we have things to learn.

Before the committee, we learned from Dr Cummins and others about what is happening in western Canada. I think we pride ourselves on being very progressive in this province. Yet if you look at this particular issue, you really have to look at places like Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba in terms of initiatives that have gone much farther than we have dared.

The studies that have been done of these experiments, which are now many years old, have shown that the quality of education these kids have received is higher than the quality of education of kids who are not in bilingual schools and higher than the quality of education in Ontario. Yet -- I turn to the member for Middlesex (Mr Reycraft) at this point and remind him of a couple of his quotes and questions -- as to the focus by Liberal members on the committee looking at Mr Grande’s Bill 80, when this information about what was taking place in western Canada was brought forward, and I would say I thirsted to know how it worked, why it worked and how we could use it, the comment was always:

“Well, how many languages are there? Surely there are only two, three or four languages that are being used in Alberta. What would we do in a place like Toronto where there could be 70 or 80 languages that there might be a demand for? How would we possibly handle this within our school system?”

Although this is a valid question, it should come --

Mr Reycraft: I’m just waiting for the answer.

Mr R. F. Johnston: There are answers and I am going to deal with some of them today, you will be happy to know.

I am to speak to the Speaker, he is saying as he beckons me with his finger. Always a pleasure, sir. Through you, to the honourable member, I would say the question being asked, although a legitimate question, was fu