LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOB A TUesday, 4 June, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr . Speaker. MR. SP EAK ER, Ho n. J. Walding : Presenti ng Petitions . . . Reading and Receiv ing Petitions . . . Presenti ng Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIA L STATEMENTS AND TA BLING OF REPORTS MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I want to table the Annual Report 1984 of the Civil Se rv ice Superannuation Fund. The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Mr.

Speak er, I'd like to table the Annual Report for the Manitoba Housing Renewal Corporation for the year ending March 31, 1984. MR . SPEAK ER: Notices of Motion . . . Introducti on of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR . SPEAK ER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 19 students of Grade 6 standing from the Laglmodlere School under the direc tion of Mrs. Phaneuf. The school is In the constituency of the Honourable Member for Springfleld, the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs.

On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. · ORAL QUESTIONS Frost - damage to crops MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR . J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the last two nights of frost in certain areas of the prov ince and the potenti al tonight, can the Minister estimate what the loss is to this point and are the majority of farmers who could suffer loss from frost covered with crop insurance? MR . SPE AK ER: The Honourable Minist er of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I don't have any ready esti mates for the honourable member. What I can indicate to the honourable member is that there were approx imately 10,000 acres of crop lost approx imately two weeks ago from the severe rainstorm that occurred in the Red River area sout h of Winnipeg, I believe, in the Dominion City area. We don't have any indications at this moment of losses.

I can indicate to the honourable member, and we did dur ing the Estimates, that there are an additional 1,400 farmers insured by crop insurance, more than last year, 1,400 farmers, and over 95 percent of the farmers have taken the higher coverage that is now provided under the new program; and we're very pleased with that, Sir. We would like to have, of course, more farmers covered under the program, but it's certainly a clear indication of the acceptance of the farm community of the changes that we've made this year. MR . J. DOWN EY: Mr.

Speaker , the past two evenings of frost in certain locations and the frost threats for this evening, does the Minist er have adequate staff available and ready to go out and perform the appraisals so that reseeding could take place Immediately and adjustments made so that the payments could be made to the farmers as the first crop? Does he have staff ready and is he ready to deal with it In a way in which it could be done, so re see dlng could be accompl ished very shortly? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, our hope would be that there would be as little damage as possible and that there would be no frost.

In the event that there are losses, I know that the staff , the part-time staff of adjus ters have been through training schools in Brandon, the adjusting staff, and as the honourable member should be aware, when we disc ussed the Estimates of the Crop Insurance Corporation, we were able to effect a decrease In the length of time it takes to adjust claims last year and we will do our utmost.

There is bound to be, Sir, at any point in time, if there is a rash of claims, that there will be some delay In terms of expec tati ons of wanting to reseed immediat ely, but we certainly will attempt to have whatever resources the corporation has mobilized, as soon as possible . Man itoba Hydro - back charges when reassessed MR. SP EAK ER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: I have a question for the Minister responsible for Manitoba Hydro.

The question deals specifi cally wi th Manit oba Hydro policy and his government 's policy of going back and making an assessment on the users of hydro for a mist ake that was Hydro's or their respons ibility. Mr. Speaker , I have a constituent in Pierson operating a small busi ness, who had a reassessment done by Manitoba Hydro and they went back to 1977 and charged him an add itional $2,400-and-some dollars. Mr. Speaker, will the Minister carry out the policy that he stated here some time ago that he was not going to be charging these people exorbitant back charges which are not their responsib ility? 2592

Tuesday, 4 June, 1985 MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speak er, had I been given that information by the member I would have certainly looked Into it, but if he's going to give me the information I'll certainly take the matter under advlsement, look Into it and report back to the House immediately. MR. J. DOWN EY: I would ask the Minister, how many more Manitoba Hydro users are being assessed or have they gone back on to see who owes the Manitoba Hydro more money? The Minister , I would hope, would answer.

How many people in Manitoba are being checked as to whet her or not they've paid sufficient funds to Manitoba Hydro? HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, certainly I believe that Hydro does do these reas sess ments. They do check back because there are instances where customers are owed money by Manitoba Hydro and Manitoba Hydro provides that money to the customers. Now I would certainly expect that members on the ot her side would like that policy to be continued so, in fact, people are charged fairly for the hydro services that they consume. MR. J. DOWN EY: Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Minister responsible for Hydro, what is the government's policy? How far back are they going to be checking on Manitoba users of hydro, and are they going to assess or reassess every Manitoba Hydro user, when it comes to the past years of use of the service? HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I'll certainly do another check.

The policy was that residences would not be assessed for more than six months In arrears, but with respect to commercial enterprises - and we have some very large commercial enterprises who consume great amounts of power - and certainly commercial and industrial enterprises sh ould indeed pay their fair sh are as part of their commercial operations. I would certainly hope that that Is the basis on which all members of this House would want Hydro to operate. Parents' Network Se minar - attendance by Education Minister or staff MA. SP E AKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR . C. MANNE SS: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. 1 address my question to the Minister of Education. An association called "Parents' Network" is sponsoring a seminar this coming Sunday entitled "Plan Change in Canadian Education." Guest speakers will be presenting an in-depth look at the topics of curriculum contents, psyc hological teaching techniques and the effect of political pressure on education. 1 ask the Minister, will she or any of her staff be attending this seminar? MA. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker , I never heard of it before. MR . C. MANNE SS: Mr.

Speaker , a greater number of people are of the belief that under the guidance of this particular Minister, the Department of Education is introducing a hidden curriculum that teaches young children that their feelings . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMB ERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAK ER: Order please. MR. C. MANN ESS: . . . of values are beyond reproach, regardless of what they may be. MR. SPEAK ER: Question? SOME HONOURABLE MEMB ERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAK ER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Government House Le ader on a point of order. HON. A. ANS TETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I raised a point of order two weeks ago regarding the obligation of members to ascertain the validity of facts before they bring them into the House and the specific citations, which I referenced at that time, requiring members to ascertain those facts and not bring allegations or rumours to the House. The Member for Morris is ex plicitly bringing what he, himself, agrees are allegations and rumours and not fact.

Sir, he does have that obligation; that obligation is an imperative with regard to question period , and I believe, Sir, you have stated in the past that it's an abuse of question period to do ot herwise. MR. SPEAK ER: Order please. If the honourable member has a question seeking information, would he pose it, please? The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: lt's exactly that, Mr. Speaker. I would ask the Minister whether she would clarify, by public statemen t, If curriculum changes include hidden attacks against accepted community values that are held by individuals? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I am very Interested to know that the member opposite is buying all of this garbage. I'd like him to go on record, so that the teachers and the professionals in the Manitoba education system can hear what they think of the Manitoba education system, because a lot of the information Is totally inaccurate, total misinformation, and they have a responsibility to make sure that they are not passing it on and adding to it, when there is no basis in fact. And let me give you an example, Mr. Speaker , because I think they'd like to hear this. Just yesterday there was a major

article indicating some concern about our K-12 social studies program and about a study that was done that said incredible things about our social studies program. it made major, major statements that were totally inaccurate. That's the kind of thing the members opposite are accepting as fact. Let me tell you, that was quoted from a . . . 2593

Tuesday, 4 June, 1985 MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, that was quoted from a 1968 position paper on social studies that was wr itten by Ken Osborne when they wer e the government. That's when that study was wr itten - when they were the government. The important thing to recognize here, Mr. Speaker, is that the quotations that are taken out of it are entirely out of context and completely misr epresented and that is what is being done time after time.

When my Est imates are up, and it's going to be very soon, I will put the K-12 social studies guideli ne and curriculum on this table and we're proud of it and we can defend it, and none of those things they are sugges ting are in it. The people of Ma nitoba can be confident that we have a good program that includes none of those elements , none of them. Education Manitoba - change agents MR. SPEAK ER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNE SS: Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister , what is a change agent?

Does the Department of Education hire any consultants to act as change agents? MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I think that there were change agents around, but it was in about the 19 60s when there was a lot of money around. They were looking for places to put money and they had change agents to decide what they could bring in that would be change. We don't have ei ther the money to make those decisi ons nor change age nts in the Department of Education. MR. C. MANNE SS: Mr.

Speaker, I'm told a change agent is a per son, organ ization or institution that changes or helps to change the beliefs, values, attitudes or behaviour of people without their knowledge or consent. I ask the Minister again, does her department hire any change agents? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, we don't use any techn iques that are not acceptable techniques in teac hing our ki ds. We don't use an y education tech niques that are not normal, accepted, traditional practice that would be accepted by teachers and by the parents in the community. We do not have change agents. We do not use values clarification.

We do not use behaviour modification in our curriculum and in our sc hools. Teachers' pensions - cost to government HON. M. HEMPHILL: While I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to answer a few quest ions that were raised before about The Te acher Pensi on Act. I believe I had a number of questions raised. One was from the Member for St. Norbert and I think he was ask ing if I could provide in writing the cost to the government in years 6-1 0 for the changes of the early retirement benefit; 1990- 91 , it's 899,000; 1991- 92, it's 935,300; '92-93, it's 975,300; 1993-94, it's 1,019, 100; 1994 -95, it's 1, 067, 100.

Mr. Manness asked a number of questions related - (Interjection) - The Member for Morris, I'm sorry HON. E. KOSTYRA: The one that gets his quest ions from Fred Clever ley. Teachers' retirements - Numbers of in 1984 HON. M. HEMPHILL: He asked how many more teachers retired in 1984 last year than was expected? We had projected 185 teachers would retir e in the fiscal year'84-85 and actually 94 teachers retired, so nine more than wer e projected in the fiscal year'84-85. Teachers' pensions - full indexing of HON. M.

HEMPHILL: The Member for Morris also asked if teachers' pens ions are fully indexed, and if they are not, to what maximum level are they covered for the increase. The answer is, Mr. Speaker , that the level of indexing depends upon the amount of money available in the Pensi on Adjustment Account. On aver age, teachers' pens ions are fully indexed if the Consumer Price Index does not increase beyond 5 percent and the general increase of indexing over the year s has been in the range of 5 percent.

Part of the teachers' contributions are set aside each year to offset 50 percent of the Indexing of the pens ions for that year . Teachers' pensions - cost to government HON. M. HEMPHILL: The Member for Morris asked a final supp lementary. He wanted to know what the total annual cost to the government in support of the pens ion fund for teachers would be and whether it would be as high as $30 million. On a cash flow basis, the cost could be $30 million for all teachers who are retired, up to and including 19 90. lt shoul d be noted that that cost includes all the pensi on costs.

I mean, the fund has been in place , I think, sin ce 1925. There are somet hing like 3,362 teachers in the fund now and we're projecting about 4,200 in the year 19 90 and that could be the ent ire cost for all, an est imated cost, for all of the teachers retiring, in the total fund, not just those that are taking advantage of the removal of the early retirement benefit. MR. C. MANNE SS: I thank the Minister for those answers. I'm intrigued though with the answer that was given to the quest ion posed by the Member for St. Norbert.

The Minister , in speak ing to the bill the other day, indicated that the cost to government would be $6.2 2594

Tueadey, 4 June, 1985 million over a 30- or 40-year period. Now the numbers that she's given the Member for St. Norbert indicate that in the 1990 s, it'll be $1 million a year. How can she reconcile those differences? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, we've got two values here.

We have a cash flow value and a present value and the way the funds are calculated by the actuarial people - and ours are Turnbull and Turnbull who have been acting as a government actuary for over 20 years - is that when you are assessing a change in a pens ion plan, you have two ways to examine it and two ways to assess it and assess the cost of the amendments. One is the present value and the other is the cash flow requirement. The difference between the two is that the present value is the total cost today.

If you cover the cost today of all of the teachers that were go ing to retire, the present value and the present cost would be the $6.2 million. The cash flow figure is the amount that is required to pay the people when they actually retire and there are two funds: the Civil Serv ice Fund and the Te achers' Pension Plan that operate that way.

They operate on the cash flow requi rement, so that the difference in the figure is the difference between what is the present value of the fund, which are the figures that the actuary gives us and which are the figures that they are based on, but the cash flow figure is the figure that it will cost down the road to pay, as the teachers retire, for their retirement on an annual basis. MR. SPEA KER : The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. ME R CIER: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for those answers.

I wonder if she could indicate on what basis those figures were calculated, on what number of teachers would be retired, having taken early retirement. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes, I think I gave that figure a few minutes ago, Mr. Speaker. I believe that we're talking about an estimate of about 4,200 teachers in 1990 . We 're got 3,300, I'm just looking for my figures. A MEM BER: All of these are early ret irements? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Yes. A MEM BER: Taking early retirement? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Oh, no. I thought he was asking for the total number of retirees in the funds.

He's asking for the numbers that are taking early retirement. We have been estimating at about 70 a year, and this year will be a good measurement, I suppose, but I think we have information of about 55 teachers about a week ago, and I think that we likely will meet the 70 estimate that we were expecting this year. Adop tion practices - religious factor MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to answer a question raised by the Member for St. Norbert last week, ask ing whether relig ious faith was a factor in adoptions. The answer , Mr.

Speaker, is that we do attempt to meet the wish,

part icularly if a mother expresses the preference. All other things being equal, and if it can be accomplished within a reasonable length of time, that wish is honoured, but there's no guarantee. Adop tion practices - families versus single persons HON. M. SMITH: With regard to another question as to whether there was preference given to placement in a family, as distinct from placement with a single person; the answer there is that the needs of the child are foremost.

Both single and married parents are placed on the registry accord ing to the date they appl ied, and we have one of the least restrictive list ings of any province across Canada. A person must be a res ident of Manitoba and over 18 , but the actual matching is done as a result of a home study and the matching of the individual needs of the child. Education in Manitoba - Recommended reading material MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My questi on is to the Minister respons ible for Education.

A constituent of mine is very upset with a book, "The Pigman" by Paul Zendell, recommended reading by the Provincial Department of Education for Grade 9 students. lt is required reading for the Portage la Prairie School Divisi on. My constituent asks, do the people of Portage la Prairie have the power to accept or refuse any or all garbage that has the Provinci al Department of Education stamp of approval? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEA KER: Order please, order please. Oral Questions is a time that members of the Leg islature may pose questions. lt is not for outside members.

If the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie has a question which he wishes to ask, would he please ask it? MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister is, do the people of Portage la Prairie have the power to accept or refuse the information or "the garbage ," as referred to by my constituent, that has the Provincial Department of Education approval? That'.s my question to the Minister . MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, there was a little bit of noise in the Chamber when the question was being asked both times and I didn't pick up the title 2595

TuHday, 4 June, 1885 of it, although I will review the particular title of that book. I'll address the broader issue in the answer. We mandate curriculum materials, Mr. Speaker. We put out programs in curriculum and courses and we have required texts for our curriculum: social studies, maths, science, English. They do not have any choice about following the prescribed curriculum textbooks that the department puts out and has appro ved. However, for other books and other materials that are resource materials to the curriculum, we put out an approved list. That means that they have reviewed it.

They think that it has merit for consideration to be attached to some courses or used in some programs and the list goes to the school divisions for them to make the selection and the choices of which to use in their classrooms. As always, I would think that this kind of decision is something that is and should be made by professionals in the field who are often members of the community especially in small rural communities and, of course, would be in a good position to know and reflect those community values.

They're trained educators so they know how it fits into curriculum and the school board is elected so that they should be there and able to make those decisions along with Input from the community as they go along. There's lots of choice there for both the parents and the school division. MR. L. HYDE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my next question is to the same Minister. Will the Minister personally look Into and review this book and state her views as to Its appropriateness? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I think I've said this before but I think I have good taste and I think I'm very sensible.

I would hate to think that they were recommending a procedure that had me, the Minister of Education, making decisions about what could be read and what couldn't be read where my judgment and my judgment alone was brought to bear. I think we need to rely on the professionals, the teachers and the people in the field and we have a system ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. M. HEMPHILL: . . . in place that has a review by the Department of Education, professional people In the field . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: . . . and other academics and community people who view it and make a recommendation. That recommendation Is put forward as an option for the people in the local division to follow. I would hate to think that for a minute we were going to move away from that sensible procedure for both protecting our children for what goes in the schools and determining what could or couldn't go in the schools. lt's a shared responsibil ity. lt's the best system we could have and I think we should stay with it. Federal Budget - Impact on women MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MS. M.

PHILUPS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to ask the Minister responsible for the Status of Women if her department has done an analysis of the Federal Budget as to its impact on women In Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister for Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, we have looked at the Budget and its impact on women from three perspectives: taxation, social programming and economic programming.

On the taxation side, again basically, because women do not acquire as much wealth as men, the exemption from the capital gains tax up to $500,000 will take many decades before women are able to qualify for that on anything like an equitable basis. Also, the elimination of $50 from the taxable income of people with incomes under $31,700 will also impact far more heavily on women in a negative way because when they are earning and, of course, that does not include 50 or 60 percent of the adult population, they do earn more In the lower end. On the social end on the economic side, Mr.

Speaker, there was really no guarantee of targeting to women in the employment training or promotion programs and all of the de-Indexing of old age security and benefits, really over time, impact very negatively on women because they are very much disproportionately represented in any poverty group. MS. M. PHILLIPS: Mr. Speaker, on that last point, In terms of elderly women, were there not any bright lights at all In the Federal Budget about them following Manitoba's lead In Improving pension benefits for women In Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please.

I'm not sure that covers a topic which Is within the administrative competence of the Minist er. If the honourable member has a specific question which Is clearly within that competence, would she ask it? The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MS. M. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was asking a supplementary In terms of an analysis that her department might have done.

I wondered If considering Manitoba has been In the lead of Improving pension benefits, I'm hoping that the Minister responsible for the Status of Women can tell the women of Manitoba whether we are going to be impacted on by the Federal Budget in the area of pension benefits. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, women in Manitoba who worked for federally registered companies can now look to have the same benefits that were introduced here last year for women who work in Manitoba registered companies. However, Mr.

Speaker, there was no improvement In the Canada Pension Plan or In development of any homemakers' pension plan for the very large number of women who are covered by no pension plan at 2596

TUesday, 4 June, 1985 moment. The hope is, of course, in time that the special needs of the homemaker who is not covered at all and also of the need of people who under CPP are still very low wage and the kind of pension that they get from Canada Pension Plan is inadequate, that there will be major improvements made in those plans, but to date we have had no indication that that will be fort hcoming. Manfor - Alan Bou rgeois, status of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister responsible for Man for.

On May 1st, the Minister took as notice specific information re Mr. Bourgeois' employment at Manfor. Can the Minister now advise as to what position or positions this individual holds with Man for, and at what salary ? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Business Development. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, I believe I answered that. Mr. Bourgeois continues to be the director of marketing at the salary he previously negotiated with Man for. MR. D. GOURLAY: Mr. Speaker, I'd ask the Minister responsible for Manfor if he could advise the House as to who is the corporate secretary for Manfor? HON. J.

STORIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Bourgeois is the corporate secretary and I would invite the member to bring his questions to Standing Committee, which will be held possibly next week and certainly the following week, and we can deal with all of those concerns. lt's the appropriate veh icle for asking those types of questions. Manfor - Paul Desmarais severance pay MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR. D. GOURL AY: A further question to the same Minist er. On May 22nd, the Minister said he would bring back details of Mr. Desmara is' severance pay arrangements with Manfor.

Can the Minister now provide us with those details? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe I said I would bring back the details. The question that was asked at that time was whether Mr. Desmarais was still on payroll and answer was no. I indicated, I believe, that the details of severance were worked out between the individual and the corporation. I certainly invite him to raise those questions with the chairman of the board and the chief executive officer. I don't believe that's information that is normally divulged in the corporate activities of other corporate entities.

Tornado, Ontario - Disaster Fund re assistance to MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHAOEDER: I took a question as notice from the House Leader for the Opposition with respect to the 1950 Flood Relief Fund. We had some difficulty locating information on it. People from the department were going through Public Accounts for those years and came up with nothing. Fortunate ly, Mr. Stewart Anderson, former Deputy Minister of Finance, could recall back to what happened in those days and apparently there was a fund managed and administered by a board of private citizens. lt was headed up by a Mr.

Manning and the funds were never included in the accounts of the Government of Manitoba. Some years after the flood when all claims had been settled, the residue, which is estimated by Mr. Anderson to have been at least several million dollars, which was a very large sum in those days, was transferred to the Canadian Disaster Relief Fund and that ended that fund, from a Manitoba perspective. We 've also been informed by the Canadian Red Cross that people who wish to donate to the Ontario Disaster Relief Fund of the Red Cross can do so and those donations, of course, will be tax deductible.

Health records - security system MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. A. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Health and ask him whet her the department has in place a system of security in regard to patient records and hospital records? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, on a question such as this, I'd want the specific and I' ll take that question as notice to give the full information to the House. MR. A. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I would ask the Minister whether he has any concern about computer printouts from the Manitoba Health Organization on Colony Street that are found blowing all over the area of the building, records that show hours and beds and salaries and operations and meal costs, whether he would have any concern about their records blowing in the wind? HON. L. DESJ ARDINS : Mr. Speaker, I think my honourable friend knows the answer to that already. Now the MHO is not the Manitoba Health Services Commission. This is something, they have certain responsibilities.

All we can do is take it up with them and whenever we're informed of anything that happened such as this, we take it up with the people concerned; but the responsibility has to be clearly with MHO, who represents all the hospitals in this province. MR. A. DOERN: Mr. Speak er, given that the organization is indirectly funded by the government, 2597

1\leaday, 4 June, 1885 through the hospitals, etc., would the Minister then contact this organization and ensure that their safe keeping and record keeping is more secure? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I think that's exactly what I said , that they will be contacted. Spodumene­ feasibilitJ studJ re production of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Energy and Mines.

About a year ago, the Minister announced a pilot project to take place at the Tanco mine site near Lac du Bonnet which would study the feasibility of producing ceramic grade spodumene. I wonder if the Minister can inform the House of what the results of that pilot project have been. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W PARAS IUK : Mr.

Speaker, indeed I'm pleased to inform all members of the Legislature that after that pilot project, Tanco has decided to build a spodumene processing plant at its Bernic Lake mine site near Lac du Bonnet and the plant, estimated to cost $6.4 million will be constructed in two phases with the first being operational by early 1986. Up to 20 temporary jobs will be created during construction and when fully completed the plant will have created 37 permanent jobs so it is a good time for them. Tornado, Ontario - MPIC reinsurance policies MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I thank the Honourable Minister of Finance for that response to yesterday's question and I also wish to acknowledge and thank a time-honoured help and relief organization, the Red Cross, for anticipating the questions in this House by setting up the Ontario fund for Manitobans to contribute to. My question is directed to the Minister responsible for Autopac in the hope that Manitobans aren't asked to contribute in a less acceptable way.

During the discussions of the General Insurance Corporation, the Public Insurance Corporation's Annual Report, it was learned that the General Insurance Division lost some $4.5 million as a result of bad or high risk reinsurance treaties. My direct question to the Minister of Autopac is, does the public corporation have any serious exposure, liability to the hundreds of millions of dollars that are being paid out by insurance companies in the Ontario disaster or storm area? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, I've made some inquiries on this and I'm advised that it's too soon to know whether or not M PlC is involved with the companies that have carried insurance on those properties that have been destroyed. Howev er, we do have reinsurance on our reinsurance treaties and the maximum exposure that MPIC could suffer would be half a million dollars. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to note that the liability is limited. lt became very clear during the consideration of the corporation's affairs that it is their reinsurance policies that lost Manitobans $4.5 million.

My question to the Minister is, would he not consider leaving that field to the professionals, as it was prior to the last two years , when Autopac didn't suffer those losses? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Mr. Speaker, I'd very much like to thank the Member for Lakeside for that question because, in fact, it may very well be - and most likely is the case - that the reinsurance policies that gave us troubles were reinsurance that was entered into during your term of office. SOME HONOURAB LE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl Garages - Autopac repairs MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister responsible for Autopac. Is it policy of Autopac, in the insurance division and policy that this Minister agrees with, that they will move to prevent garages who provide repairs to Autopac holders of windshields and prevent those garages offering the repairs, doing so at a saving to the customer? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The answer is no. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if I could have leave to revert back to Presenting Reports. MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIA L COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain Resolutions, directs me to report the same, and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Member for lnkster, that the report of the Committee be received. 2598

TuesdaJ, 4 June, 1985 MOTION presented and carried. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Would you please call Second Reading on Bill No. 57 SECOND READINGS BILL NO. 5 - THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT HON. R. PENNER presented, by leave, Bill No. 5, The Freedom of Information Act; Lol sur la liberte d'acces a !'Information, for second reading. (Recommended by Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor) MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour�ble Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, I rise today with a sense of pride to Introduce the much-talked about and much-anticipated Freedom of Information Act. I say, Sir, with a sense of pride, knowing that there are and will be some criticisms of certain aspects of the bill, that's inevitable and I'm prepared to respond, and Indeed during committee stage, to listen very carefully and where changes are Indicated to be as I have been on other bills, I hope flexible enough to learn from submissions which may be made.

But, Sir, I say a sense of pride because having worked on this legislation, very closely, for close to three years; having considered the major piece of Freedom of Information legislation in this country, the federal bill; having considered the New Brunswick bill; having considered the Nova Scotia bill - and those are the only bills extant in the country - I can say, with a sense of certainty, that the bill which I have introduced for second reading today is the best in the country. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HON. R.

PENNER: Indeed, Sir, it has been so described to us by Professor Murray Rankin, an acknowledged international expert in the field, who prepared the Canadian Bar Association model bill, from which we learned a great deal. Recently, Sir, I read a column by William Satire on a form of speech called the oxymoron, which is a contradiction in terms, like the much misused, but often used phrase, "guest hosts," a contradicton in terms. lt makes little sense. lt has been said, Sir, perhaps with too much of the truth about it, that the term "open government" is an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms.

Well simply and starkly that need not be, to the extent that that has been the case and I think we must acknowledge those who have any involvement in the political life of our country, any familiarity with the political life of other countries in the Western World, no; that too often that criticism, expressed In the notion that the term "open government" is a contradiction In terms, has some point to it.

I say it need not be, Sir, and subject to reasonable exemptions - and I'll talk about those In a few moments - all Information - all information in government files, personal and non-personal, should, as a matter of principle, be available to the public, to whom, In every sense, we are answerable; and with respect to whom, Mr. Speaker, we must always strive to be the servants and not the masters. Freedom of Information legislation is sometimes called "sunshine legislati on." Why? For a variety of reasons, no doubt, but principally because an informed citizenry and democracy are two sides of the same coin.

The very origin of the term "democracy," the Greek rule of the people, stems from a time when, in fact, it was possible for the people to assemble in a meeting that involved all cltizenry, where all information on a matter of policy to be decided was equally available to all and all participated in the decision-making process.

Society we know - perhaps we can regret that it Is so, but we can't turn the clock back -I s far too complex for the village square, but in a way that should be the model, and to the extent that we can achieve it or reach for that ultimate goal, we should attempt to do so; and so in this legislation, we start with that principle, that's subject to this act. Every person has, upon application, a right of access to any record In the custody or under the control of a department, including any record which discloses Information about the applicant.

That's the central, pivotable point upon which this legislation stands; and, Sir, the term "department" Includes Crown agencies, boards and commissions. We're not talking narrowly about the government departments that we know as represented by Ministers on the Treasury Bench. "Subject to this act, every person has," and so on. Of course, the "Subject to this act" essentially means subject to certain exemptions which are set forth with a great deal of detail In the legislation.

I want to talk about the exemptions, substantially in principle, because I'm sure that the committee process will spend virtually all of its time on the exemptions which Is appropriate. As I've said before and I say now, I'm open on that. I do not come forward with this legislation even though it's been worked on for three years by some very, very good people - I exclude myself from that self-serving phrase - and the exemptions have been well articulated. I know that we will learn In the committee process.

With respect to the exemptions then - everyone, I think, I'm sure everyone In this House will recognize that there must be some exemptions, that you cannot have complete availability to everyone of every record. Some examples will come readily to mind, for example, third party access to personal files. We don't want anyone except the person himself or herself, and then there are some conditions there,. but we don't want anyone else to intrude upon some person's privacy by having access to that person's file in a government record. That springs obviously to mind as an exemption.

Ongoing criminal Investigations or legal advice received by government with respect to an ongoing piece of civil litigation, these spring readily to mind. There will be little, if any, dispute about those. 2599

Tueaday, 4 June, 1985 Commercial confidences, there may be in terms of precisely what is meant, but in terms of a principle, there will be little if any dispute about that. Intergovernmental confidences - and I'll speak in a few moments about that and furnish a specific example. Generally spe aking, there will be with some question of where the borderlines are, little dispute about that.

Once you recogn ize that there must be certain exemptions, the problem - and it really is a problem - is to so articulate those exemptions that in protecting those things which ought to be protected, you don't trample on or too much narrow the central principle of access to information.

You know, the old Oxford debate, the Oxford Union used to have debates on such things as "Resolved that instead of the Pilgrim Fathers landing on Plymouth Rock, Plymouth Rock should hav e lande d on the Pilgrim Fathers" or "Resolved that the line should be drawn and everyone can take either side on that side of the debate." Where do you draw the line? In my view, Sir, the bill strikes a reasonable balance between the important principle of public access and competing princi ples such as the right to personal privacy and so on.

The method that we've used to try to confine those exemptions as much as possible is to use two important devices. Some sections expressly list certain kinds of records to which the exemption does not apply. We say there is an exemption with respect to, let's say, intergovernmental confidences, but that does not apply to . . . and some exclusions to the exemption are set forth. In addition, there is what I might call an override subsections in each area. That is, the right of access is expressly preserved in certain circumstances, notwithstanding that the record may fall within the given exemptions. Mr.

Speak er, many of the exemptions from disclosure are made permissive rather than mandatory, so that even though there is an exemption, it's one that has a certain element of discretion about it because in those areas there can be quite a gamut of information, some of which ought to be disclosed and some of which ought not to be dis closed. Let me use as a particular example an area to which I referred a few moments ago when I talked about material that circulates between different levels of government. One

section says that the head of a department - and that's defined as the head of a department or a Crown corporation or a board or a commission where applicable - "may" refuse - not "shall" but "may" refuse to give access to any record the disclosure of which could reasonably be expected to be injurious to the conduct by the government of federal-provincial relations. Then, there's another

section which says that subject to a subsection, the head of a department "shall" refuse to give access to any record obtained in confidence from the Government of Canada or a department thereof, the government of another province or a department thereof, or a mun icipal or regional government, a school division or school district or any other local authority established by or in accordance with an enactment of the province or a department of such local authority. Just to take that last example where, let's say, a muni cipal government sen ds something to the Min ister of Mun icipal Affairs in confidence.

Once it's accepted , we accept it in confidence. lt would be wrong to say that even though we've accepted in confidence, we're going to disclose it. So that then becomes a mandatory exemption from access. Others are not received in a confidence expressed or im plied but may be received at a time when negotiations are taking place with the respect to some provinces or all of them to develop a provincial position vis-a-vis a federal statute. I can think of one example.

There were no great state secrets involved but at one time, all of the provinces, with Manitoba being in the lead, were seeking to respond to a federal draft bill on divorce. There was correspondence back and forth with various conflicts of views that ultimately ended up in a consensus. The Mini sters of the various governments corresponding had to feel free to express themselves frankly on the provisions of the federal statute but, ultim ately, when there was consensus on a position to be advanced vis-a-vis the federal bill, that then was sent to the Federal Min ister by myself as an open document.

Of critical importance, Mr. Speaker, to this bill, that which gives it teeth - and this becomes very, very important - is the following: Of critical importance to this bill, that which gives it teeth, is a two-tiered review process which will ensure that rights of access are enforclble and not illus ory. This Is very, very Important. The first of the two tiers is resort to the Ombudsman.

The Ombudsman, for the purposes of this act, has all of the power which the Ombudsman has with respect to any other function of the Ombudsman, all of the power. lt is not possible, for example, to say to the Ombuds man, oh, you can't see this to determine whether or not the ruling made by the head of the department is correct because it's so confidential that you can't see it. There is no such barrier to the Ombudsman. Second ly, should that process not result in the decision favourable to the applicant, the applicant has the right of resort to the courts.

There are bills which have been presented or prepared for presentation, e.g., in Ontario, that ultimately have met so much criticism they've had to be withdrawn, which proposed that the resort should be to the Legislatur e; but since the government, essentially, has the voting power -i t doesn't control, but it has the voting power in the Legislature - that appeal may be an Illusory appeal,

whereas, with the independence of the judic iary, resort to the courts is not an illusory appeal. Equally important in that process, the burden of proof, of showing that a given document or record or file is, within an exemption, is on the government. As the Member for St.

Norbert will know and I think other members in this House know that becomes a critical matter upon whom lies the burden of proof; because how can an applicant, the ordinary applicant really cope with the question of demonstrating, not even really knowing fully government document methods and filing and so on, that a matter is or is not within an exemption. So here you have the two-tiered process, plus the burden of proof, and I say that that indeed gives this legislation teeth.

Just while I'm on that question, if I might digress for a moment, I've spoken about the problem of the ordinary applicant who comes and wants someth ing, 2600

Tuead8y, 4 June, 1985 but is coping with the government bureaucracy and may not even know which department to go to or if that person goes to the department, not sure which division of the department or precisely what to ask for. There is a requirement in the act that there shall be prepared something called an access register which provides basic information and that access register's available in every department, in every board, in every commission, in every Crown agenc y. That access register helps the applicant more closely identif y the area within which information is to be sought. Mr.

Speaker, the legislation, as I've noted, also adopts the important principle of access to personal records in the following respects. The right of access to personal records prepared after the act comes into force, the right, and this is novel and I think very important, the right to file a notice of object ion, where the applicant disagrees with the information contained in his or her record and, again, the applicability of the two-tiered review and appeal system applies in this area as it does with respect to non-personal records. Let me deal with the first of these provisions dealing with personal records.

There has been some commen tary on it. I think we should start with this in mind, Sir, that until the passage of this act - and I hope it will be passed in this Session and its proclamation, I hope that follows shortly after or a rea sonable time after - there has been no such right of access at all, so that as limited as this may appear , in terms of giving a right of access, it is a major step forward to that which exists.

Ther e is a limitation that some people are concerned about or at least have asked questions about; namely , that there is a sunrise clause which says that that right of access begins with the time the act comes into force.

The reason for that - and it's something we can discuss either here on second reading or in committee, I'm very in terested in hearing other views - is that at least two departments of government, the Department of Health, the Department of Community Services and Corrections rely heavily on the input of non-governmental professionals, the psychiatrists, social workers, psychologists, health profe ssionals and so on.

The advice we have, not only from the department but from groups of profes sionals, is that information has been supplied on the basis of the system that exists now, namel y, that those records are confidential, and they can't go back - and obviously no one would want them to go back - and rewrite the records, in terms of knowing that it will be available, that when records are being written on an understanding that they are received in confidence, there's a principle ther e that we are constrained to follow and that we intend to follow.

So, in effect, we're saying to all of those professionals who supply information to the government in one way or another , know ye that from this day forward, whatever that day shall be, everyth ing that you write about Brown will be available to Brown, some limitations; and Brown, of course, can put an exem ption or an exception in the file that must remain in the file. When Brown comes to look at his or her file and there is some opinion about Brown or some facts stated about Brown, Brown can say, this is wrong and here are the facts and here is the truth of the matter.

That right, inciden tally, to file a notice of objection, which must remain in the file, cannot be removed from the file, so that anyone reading the file reads not only the opinion of Doctor Whoever but reads the notice of Brown with respect to that information. Mr.

Speaker, as I noted, in response to a question yesterd ay, the bill before the House reflects intensive administrative prepara tion and interdepartmental co­ operat ion, including the accelerated scheduling of records by the Department of Government Records, by the Government Records Division in the Department of Culture, Herita ge and Recre ation, extensive communication between my department and all other departments, but particularly the officials in Culture, Herita ge and Recreation who have worked with government information over the years and have developed a whole record keeping and record transferral and record transmittal and archival systems; and with respect to future co-opera tion, to prepare departments and Crown agencies for implementation.

We 're far along the road on that path, because in working with the departments on the articulation of the bill, we also worked with the departments on the implementation of the bill. Insofar as it is possible, and substantially it is possible, freedom of information will be the um brella statute for access to government reco rds. For example, and this is important, Sir, it expressly overrides confidentiality provisions in other provincial laws, but access provisions and procedures in other acts are preserved so that if they are present access provision and

an act is somewhat different and more open than the general umbrella statute, then the more open, spec ialized access provision in that statute will prev ail. But where there's a confidentiality provision in a bill, it will not prevail over the freedom of information bill. There will be - and that will be noted in the bill - some specialized detail access confidentiality rules in other acts which are excluded from the operation of the bill, for example, those dealing with adoption, disclosure of adoption. There is already existing what is called an open register system and that will be maintained.

With the coming of freedom of information into force, some specific confidentiality provisions in other acts will be repealed in this Sessi on's statute law amendment bill. Indeed, Sir, as we have been working on this bill for pres entation to this Session, we have carefully reviewed other bills coming forward this Ses sion to assure that there is already, as much as we can ensure, a consistent approach with respect to access to government reco rds.

For example, we worked very closely with the Department and Minister of Community Services and Corrections with respect to the provisions of The Child and Family Services Act, with respect to amendments to The Vital Statistics Act to make sure that they fit in with the general scheme of access to information. Mr. Speaker, the bill is long and in many respects is detailed as it should be, but the general principles are clear. We start with the principle of access. We ensure that the exemptions are carefully articulated. As much as possible, we provide exc lusions from the exem ptions. lt's all there.

We provide a very critically important two­ tiered appeal process. We put the burden of proof on the government. We provide an access register and we will learn the lessons we have and we've worked closely with the federal privacy commissioners, with 2601

TUesday. 4 June, 1185 lnga Hansen and others, and they have learned much in the process. We know, for example, that by far the greatest use of the provisions of the statute will be by individuals see king access to personal records. We know that there are some wrinkles that will have to be ironed out, but we think that we are launching an excellent piece of legislation with the esse ntial principles that have been developed since the enactment of the first freedom of Information bill in the United States in the late '60s, from which much has been learned. We think we've learned from the federal experience.

We have learned from the model bill proposed by the Canadian Bar Association. We look forward to what I'm sure will be a constructive debate and I reco mmend this bill to the House with the closing statement, that I look forward not only to the debate on second reading but to the committee stage when I'm sure various organizations will come forward; organizations, for example, repres enting researchers and there are provisions to the act which give access to researchers under controlled conditions.

They will come forward to make sure that the freedom of information legislation in this province does not become, as it did regrettab ly in Nova Scotia, not freedom of information but, In fact, a lid on disclosure. This is not the case with this bill and I reco mmend it to the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Turtle Mountain, that debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER: lt is moved by the Honourable Member for St. Norbert, and seconded by the Honourable Member ... MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker , I wonder If I could ask a question just before the member puts . . . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , could the Attorney­ General clarify a point about this sunrise clause?

Is he saying that an individual who approaches a government with a view to examining his personal records will be told that no reco rds can be seen prior to the date of proclamation, so that any citizen, say, going to the government in a couple of months will be told they cannot see any records because no records exist in relation to this bill and unless there is new material added, they cannot see anything that is now printed and on file? HON. R. PENNER: No. This

section is one of those that has a discretionary element. The head of a department may refuse to give access to any record which was made prior to the coming into force of the act. We know that in many of the files there'll be a lot of information other than the report of a, let's say, psychiatrist. That will be available. Much that is In the file will be available, but there may be elements in the file which were given in confidence prior to the coming into force of that which will not be available other than the permission of the person who gave the report. MOTION preaented and carried. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Min ister of Agriculture, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION preaented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Suppl y to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East In the Chair for Agriculture, and the Honourable Member for Bu rrows in the Chair for Employment Services and Economic Security.

CONCURRENT COMMIT TEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EMPLOYMENT SERVICES AND ECONOMIC SECURITY MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoa: The committee, please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply shall be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security. We shall begin with a statem ent from the Honourable Mini ster who is responsible for the department. Mr. Min ister . HON. L. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. I am proud to present today the 19 85-86 Estimates of the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security for consideration by members.

The department Is now embarking on Its second year of opera tion since its establishment in late 19 83, and while much has already been accomplished, I look forward to greater achievements in the year 1985-86.

As you are no doubt aware, the department was formed to link employment development measures on the one hand and Income security programs on the other , within one department, to give new emphasis to supporting this gove rnment's No. 1 priority, namely job creat ion and preservation; while at the same time Improving access to jobs for all Manitobans, Including those who might otherwise be dependent on social assistance.

In carrying out its responsibilities, the Manitoba Emplo yment Services and Economic Security Department plays a leading role in the development of the government strategies to assist in the ec onomic growth of Manitoba, while ensuring that no Manltoban lacks a basic income to provide the goods and services essential to his or her health and well-being. The department is striving to achieve greater co­ opera tion and co-ordination with business, the non­ profit sector , labour, and various levels of government. 2602

'1'Ue.dlly, 4 June, 1885 This increased emphasis on co-opera tion has been basic to the design of the various employment assistance and training programs under way in the department. The various functions of the department are divided among four divisions. The two major divisions are Employment Services, which is resp onsible for emplo yment development and training; and Economic Securit y, which is responsible for income-tra nsfer programs. A third division, the Manitoba Bureau of Statistics, provides a central statistical service for all government departments.

Central ized Services are provided to the department by the administration and finance division, including research and planning and commu nications. The Emp loyment Services division has as its primary goal to develop to the fullest the employment potential of all Manitobans and to direct efforts to remove structural barriers to employment. Unemployment is the most serious problem facing this country and this province and it is expected that it will continue at unacceptably high levels in all provinces over the next several years.

My department is actively invo lved in creating employment opportunities for Manitobans, and we have been successful in impl ementing and delivering measures that have helped in keeping this province's unemployment rate among the lowest in the country. We have attempted to build a strong economic orientation into our labour-market programs in order to combat unemployment by de veloping permanent job opportunities. A major emphasis is placed on small business. We are also under tak ing new ways of com bini ng trai nin g and work experience with employment creation.

The employment development and training Initiatives of my department serve all Manitobans, with programs tailored to serve the needs of our young people, the unemployed, women , Natives, the disabled, employment disadvantaged , and persons on social assistance. In addition the departme nt's wage assistance, training and referral programs have a major imp act on thousands of Manitoba emplo yers, especially smaller businesses. The burden of unemp loyment rests especially heavily on our youth since they lack work experience.

In order to give our young people a chance to get the foothold they need to be accepted into the permanent labour force, we administer and deliver some key Manitoba Job Funds programs. These include the Careerstart Program which has proven to be a popular and effe ctive job creation program for both business and young people and the Ma nitoba Jobs In Trainin g Program which was annou nced last September. Other Job s Fund Programs delive red by this department include Youth Busi ness Start and the Manitoba Graduates in Business Program.

Special opportunities for summer emp loyment and work experience will be maintained through departmental initiatives such as STEP, that Is the Student Te mp orary Emplo yment Program, the Northern Youth Corps Program, the Northern Summer Education Program, the Manitoba Youth Job Centre Program and the Job Opportunity Serv ice. The department is also responsible, in co-opera tion with the Department of Education, for managing Manitoba's overall job training strategy in support of provincial economic development.

Since the release of the Federal Consultation Paper on Tralning in December , 1984, my department has been involved in discussion with the Federal Government on the devel opment of strateg ies for the support of training in employment development. I'm encouraged by the exp ressed desire of the Federal Government to develop new and more flexible approaches toward training and the development of improved working rela tionships between governments and the private sector. Manitoba has, in fact, been incorporating similar principles in the dev elopment of its own employment and training Initiatives.

In the economic security area, my departmen t's concern is to ensure that no Manitoban lacks those goods and services essential to his or her health and well being, while at the same time, implementing policies which link with employment development and employment prepara tion, initiatives to promote financial independence. The Hum an Reso urces Opportunity Program in the Selkirk Training Plant are major programs targeted to serve social assistance clients and clients who could become dependent on social assistance.

During the last three years, we've expanded the Human Resources Opportunity Program by over 50 percent and we will sustain these programs in this coming year at the'84- 85 levels. Despite growth in provincial and municipal caseloads in recent years, it is estimated that, based on December , 19 84 statistics from Health and We lfare Canada, Manitoba has the third lowest percentage of combined provincial and municipal social allowance recipients to the population of all the provinces. My department's Estimates are designed to maintain the quality and the integrity of Manitoba's income security programs.

Provincial social allowance rates have been adjusted to reflect changes in actual market costs of basic necessities and, in addition, income eligibility lev els for the Income Supplement Program designed to assist low income pensioners and low Income families will be indexed. The automation of our Social Allowances Program continues to be a major thrust and priority is being given to this project. In the field of statistics and resear ch, we will continue to maintain these major functions which is imp erative to both departmental and overall governmental planning.

The Manitoba Bureau of Statistics actively participates in and co-ordinates the development of the Manitoba statistical system, developing and integrating social and eco nomic statistics relating to the province on behalf of various agencies and departments of government. The greater utilization of microcomputers by the bureau, combined with some shifting of responsi bility to departments to obtain their own data, has allowed the bureau to stream line its operations and to focus more on original data development and analysis.

I just might add that one key role that the bureau does play Is to provide an entry point and a point of liaison with the Statistics Canada organization. lt's the legislation under which the Manito ba Bur eau of Statistics operates that enables us to get various kinds of tabulations from Statistics Canada that we wouldn't be able to obtain otherwise. 2603

lUeaday, 4 June, 1985 Mr. Chairman, I've provided you with a brief overview of my department's activities and the priorities that the department will be pursuing in 198 5-86. The total expenditure proposed in the spending Estimates for this department Is just over $18 4 million. In addition, as I mentioned earlier, a number of programs the department will be de livering this year will be funded from the Manitoba Jobs Fund. That is in addition to the $1 84 million. So, Mr.

Chairman, I refer the department's 1985 -86 spending Estimates to the committee and look forward to the member's comments, questions and contributions. I will have a copy of this available for members if they so wish, although it will be in Hansard. I might add that I've made some deletions from the original statement. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. The Chairperson invites the leading critic of the opposition party to present her reply to the Minister's opening statem ent, if the leading critic so desires. The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to thank the Minister for his opening remarks and his views and information on the operation of his department. I must say it was considerabl y easier this year to prepare for these Estimates, since the department has been in operation for a year and there was an Annual Report. lt was very difficult last year to find out even what programs were under this department, so it was more difficult to prepare for Estimates. The Annual Report covers ever ything, and it saved me some research and some guesswork .

Having said that, of course, I don't want the Minister to re lax and think that there were no more questions, that the Annual Report answered them all. Of course it didn't. The Annual Report probably led to more questions, so the members of the opposition will be questioning him In several areas particular ly, and on some of his press re leases. We 'll be Inquiring into the de livery and the effectiveness of some of the programs with respect to the taxpayers who pay for them and the people who are the receivers and need the services.

We will be trying to ascertain whether both are getting the full value for every dollar that's being spent. We 'll be anxious to hear the Minister's explanations of his policies with regard to some program delivery . There's considerabl e unhappiness with perceived policies at this point of delivery of the Careerstart Program and others, and perhaps through this process, we can get a further understanding of just how those operate and why some decisions are made.

We 've noticed that the Estimates reflect an increase of nearly $14 million and we'll be wanting to know if this refl ects greater service to the people, greater staff, or new programs. That is one area we will be exploring. I' m wondering if the Minister could furnish us with a departmental listing, as he did last year, of all the staffing for each area? And another thing I wanted to ask before we get under way, is under which line doe s the Community Assets Program fall? - (Interjection) - I just wanted an answer to that so I can note it and then we can go on. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr.

Minister, do you want to answer the question now? HON. L. EVANS: We ll, two points. Certain ly, we can provide a list of the staff numbers by division and section. The Manitoba Community Assets Program comes under the Fed eral-Provincial Program Co­ ordination Branch. MRS. C. OLESON: Now, if we get into the meat of the matter here. MR. CHAIRMAN: We haven't started questioning yet. We haven't called the staff. Are you finished with your statement? MRS. C. OLESON: Yes, I'm finished with my statement, thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: At this stage of the proceedings in our committee, the Chairperson cordiall y Invites the members of the departmental staff of the department to take their respective places. Deferring the Item No. 1.(

a) re lating to the Minister's Salary as the last item for consideration by this committee, we now start our consideration with respect to Budget Item No. 1.(b)(1 ) Executive Support, Salaries; 1.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Under Executive Support I note that last year there were eight staff people involved. Is that the same figure this year? HON. L. EVANS: The answer is yes and I should perhaps give the member the copy of the staffing and that will give you that answer, and anyone would like copies we have them. lt's not a best seller. MRS. C. OLESON: Do the eight people include the Minister 's executive assistant in Brandon this year as well? HON. L. EVANS: Yes. MRS. C. OLESON: What office space does that person occupy?

Is it a sepa rate· special office or one of the government building offices? Could the Minister explain how that works? HON. L. EVANS: We ll, we did this last year, I believe, with the Le ader of the Opposition. The government has Executive Council offices in several regional centres including Brandon, Thompson and Dauphin. The Executive Council office Is an office that Is used by the Premier and Ministers who come to Brandon and the We stman area from time to time. I've made a decision rather than have my executive assistant be in this bui lding, it would be preferable to have that person in that building.

Of course, that is the same proc edure which was followed, I believe, by Mr. Mac Master when he was the Minister of Labour representing Thompson. lt was a procedure I followed in the '70s. MRS. C. OLESON: The Minister may have mentioned it, but is that in the Provincial Building? 2604

Tuesday, 4 June, 1985 HON. L. EVANS: Yes, it's an Executive Council office in the Provincial Government Building. That office serve s the res idents , the people of the We stman area, regarding problems that they have with the government, and as I said, it's not a special office. The sa me office is used by the Ministers as is used by the executive assistants that sh are it, so when there's a visi ting Minister, the executive assistant has to find some add itional space, temporar ily. MRS. C.

OLESON: I noticed this area, this executive support area has a decrease of - or maybe it's under Other Expenditure s- that has a decrease of $1 2,000.00. What's the explanation for that? HON. L. EVANS: There is provision for adminis trative assistants or executive assistant support for the Deputy Minis ter. That position has been vacant and we intend to keep it vacant for a while so we're saving a little bit of money there. MRS. C. OLESON: So you don't intend to hire in that area this year then? HON. L. EVANS: For a number of months at least. MRS. C. OLESON: Mr. Chairman, how do you want to . . .

Do we go through the entire area here and then treat it as one topic or do you want to vote on each one as the ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Because of the requirements of a staff resource pers on, we usually follow the line-by-line item so that every question will have a responding expert who will answer the particularly very detailed question, except in very excep tional circumstances, by committee leave.

For example, when a member of the opposition cannot be here on a certain day, we may jump, but only for that purpose, to accommodate the member who cannot be here on a particular day; but we want a specific answer to specific questions and we want the people available here, so we do it in an orderly fashion. MRS. C. OLESON: What I was meaning, would you just flow on to (

c) and ... MR. CHAIRMAN: If you want to call the whole set as a block, I can do that, and there is no question but that will be very confusing becaus e if you jump from the beginning and then at the tail, and some of the staff members are not here because of the timing, then you don't get the answer to your ques tion. MRS. C. OLESON: We ll, we'll carry on to No. (

c) then and ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The better policy is to do it in a very orderly and systematic fashion. MRS. C. OLESON: Oh, I intend to. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are we ready to pass 1.(b)( 1)7 1.(b)(1 )-pass; 1.(b)(2)- pass. 1.(c)

(1) Research and Planning: Salaries; 1.(c)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You have reduced one staff member in that department, I take it, from your lis ting? HON. L. EVANS: No, it's the same number, nine. MRS. C. OLESON: I have 10 , as of last year . I wonder where I got that? From Hansard, I beli eve. HON. L. EVANS: Look at your recent sh eet. I guess there was an adjustment. You see, it sa ys, adjuste d'84- 85. MRS. C. OLESON: There may have been and there has been a decrease there of $22,000; maybe that explains the change from last year. HON. L.

EVANS: The reason for the lower money is because there have been a couple of positions held vacant and we won't be filling them for a few months; so we're saving some money. MRS. C. OLESON: What's the reason for holding the vacancies? Is it not needing the st aff? Just what is the purpose of holding the positions vacant? HON. L. EVANS: We need to fill all of the positions.

We have to make some decisions surrounding one or two of those positions - well two of those positions - one in particular. lt is our intention - we bel ieve the positions are needed and we will be filling them, but there has been a per iod of time when they've been held vacant and they'll probably be vacant for another couple of months, so we are able to show a sm all decreas e. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(c)(1)- pass; 1.(c)(2) - the Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I note in here that we have an Expenditure of $75,400; Recoverable from Canada $80,400.00.

Could the Minis ter indicate which, or is it both branches, are cost-shared with the Fe deral Government and what is the formula? HON. L. EVANS: The cost-s haring is with both the Salaries and the Other Expenditures . it's an amount of work , as I understand, related to the Canada Assistance Program - so rry, it's related to the National Training Agreement which is cost-shared with the Federal Government and some CAP. that's the Canada Assistance Program - nothing simple in this world. There are two cost-sharing programs there. MR. H. GRAHAM: Is that entirely in research or is some of that in planning as well?

HON. L. EVANS: Really, the two funct ions are intertwined. You can't do any planning without some research; and you sh ouldn't do any research unless you're going to do some planning. 2605

rue.dey, 4 June, 1885 MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, could we have the assurance then that this is purely in research and planning and there is nothing else that is being cost­ shared under this particular appropriation? lt's purely research and planning, is that right? HON. L. EVANS: Yes. MR. H. GRAHAM: No further questions. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)(2)- pass. 1. (d)( 1) Communi cations, Salaries; 1. {d)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Communications staff under this, does this Minis ter still have Commu nications staff actually working in this department or have they gone to the Premier's communication group? HON. L. EVANS: No, the staff are In the department. MRS. C. OLESON: In your department. You have two people then? Did you hire someone during the year because my notes reflect one staffperson last year. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, I'm advised, Mr.

Chairman, that we had one position transferred from Research and Planning during the year to Communi cations that was vacant, so we've hired the additional person. MRS. C. OLESON: Is this area in charge of the press releases the Minis ter puts out, the news releases that are put out with regard to all the programs under this department? HON. L. EVANS: Yes. I might add, Mr. Chairman, that they do other things.

They are Involved in preparing various brochures on the supplement for pensioners and the social allowance programs - on all those programs we have explanatory brochures and booklets for clients or potential clients. Also, they're responsible for producing the Annual Report that the member referred to and a numb er of other documents. There's a Job Search Hand book that we're producing and the Job Opportunity Service brochure and so on. So, there's a variety of publications, brochu res that are prepared largely by this branch and that is in addition to the preparation of news releases. MRS. C.

OLESON: Did this department put out the booklet that was a forecast of job opportunities? HON. L. EVANS: What specific publ ications is the member referring to? MRS. C. OLESON: I haven't got it with me, but it was the outlook for job opportunities in the future. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I believe that's the Occupational Outlook and that work was essentially done in the Research and Planning Branch. MRS. C. OLESON: Well, does this department do the application forms and brochur es that go out, for instance, with the Careerstart Program, the job training, all those? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, but of course we consulted with the staff of the Manitoba Jobs Fund. The Communi cations people have to relate to the various program managers that deliver specific programs, obviously. They co-ordinate and ensure that the material is out in a form that, hopefully, will be easily understood by the general public and so on. Their function is one that involves a lot of liaison with various branches and, indeed, with the Manitoba Jobs Fund as well. MRS. C. OLESON: Well then, is this partly financed by the Jobs Fund then? HON. L. EVANS: No, these expenditures are as shown here under this department. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, the remarks of the Minister prompt me to ask a question. When he states that they spent most of their time commun icat ing with other programs of other departments, could the Mini ster ind icate what percentage of their time in the Communi cations Branch is spent commu nicating with other branches of government and what percentage of their time is spent communicating with the people of Manitoba? HON. L. EVANS: I don't know whether we've got a survey on that. Mr.

Chairman, it's a matter of producing the materials that are required to run a successful pro gram. You can't run a successful, let's say, Car eerstart Program, if you don't ha ve proper application forms, informational brochures that are easily read and understood and so on. In order to do that, of course, this branch has to get some assistance from that

section of the department that will be adminis tering it. lt's part and parcel of communicating with Manitobans via brochures. You have to get information fed to you from various parts of the department. MR. H. GRAHAM: Well, is it fair, Mr. Chairman, to assume from what the Minister has said that 80 percent of the time is spent communicating with other branches of government and only 20 percent is spent communicating with the people? HON. L. EVANS: No, it's not fair. MR. CHAIRMAN: That's a direct answer. HON. L. EVANS: Nor is it correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, since it's only an assumption, it can be anything.

A MEMBER: The Chairman is entering into the debate? MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm just making an observation, a very neutral one. 2606

TueMiasr. 4 June, 1185 The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Another question has occurred to me in the middle of all that. How much does it cost to put out the brochures for, say, Careerstart? How much would it cost to produce the booklet that went out with it and the application form? HON. L. EVANS: The cost of the actual production of the brochures is covered by the Manitoba Jobs Fund. Whenever we're talking about a specific Jobs Fund Program which Careerstart is, the cost of the literature is paid for under that appropriation.

Of course, we will be discussing the Jobs Fund subsequently In the committee and we can provide that information. lt's a matter of getting hold of it and we'll make a note of that so that at that point I will be participating in that Estimates review along with the Chairman of the Jobs Fund, the Honourable Mr. Kostyra. I will be participating and answering specific questions relating to programs that we administer and we will get that information. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (d)( 1) -p ass; 1. (d)(2)- pass. 1. (e)

(1) Financial and Admin istrative Services: Salaries; 1. {e)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This department has 40 staff members. Could the Mini ster clarify for me what difference this Financial and Admin istrative Services, what Is the difference between this and the field staff in connection with the Employment Services? I seem to gather that this administers social allowances, but is it anything to do with that actual delivery of services? Could the Min ister just give me a clarification on the roles of both those? HON. L.

EVANS: Well, if the member is talking about Economic Security, our social allowances program, which I gather she is, the field staff of that program, of course, interface with the clients, the people who apply for assistance and they go over their needs and personal income problems and so on and make decisions in the field. This division services the entire department. Financial and admin istrative services are rendered to the entire department, not just the Economic Security side, but also the Employment side and the other components of the department.

Generally, they do all the centralized accounting and they include all the payments to the social allowance recipients. There are people who are working in the Central Accounting Office and there are people that are engaged in a variety of services. For instance, there's one staff involved with municipal assistance payments alone, because we cost share with the mun icipalities.

We have a numb er of staff involved in inspecting mail and vehicle records and looking at liens and so on, so that is the specific function provided by the Financial Services Branch in that area; but as I indicated, while a lot of it has to do with social allowances, we're involv ed in other central ized accounting for the department. MRS. C. OLESON: You mentioned that one person is involved with the delivery of municipal social assistance.

What sort of liaison, like, would this depart ment have liaison with those people that are trying to deliver the services in the municipalities with regard to administrative advice? HON. L. EVANS: Not necess arily, but we do cost share with the municipal governments. There are a couple of formulas, but we do handle claims from the mun icipalities and we're dealing with approximately 200 municipal governments in this province, so there is quite a bit of correspondence and financial documents flowing back and forward between municipal governments and our department. MRS. C.

OLESON: I wanted to discuss problems peculiar to municipal governments but I guess that would be better discussed under the Economic Security Division under the municipal component. I think there is a special heading for that. Ye s, 2.(b)(3), I believe, so I'd better leave that part till then to discuss that. lt might be better dealt with under that head ing. HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I think that is appropriate because we're essentially talking about processing cheques here and flowing of funds. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)( 1)-p ass; 1. (e)(2)-pa ss. 1. (f)

(1) Personnel Services: Salaries; 1. (f)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: This is the same staffing as in 19 84? Could the Mi nister explain the functions of this department and how it differs from the one we just discussed? HON. L. EVANS: The staffing, as the member observed, is the same. The Personnel Services Branch provides centralized personnel services to all the branches and is directly involved in staff recruitment and selection, job evaluation and classification, employee relations, affirmative action Initiatives.

If there are any training programs, staff development programs, it would be this branch that would be Involved In that and various matters regarding pay benefits and so on. They inter-relate, of course, with the Civil Service Commission, so they process applications for jobs in the department; they conduct individual interviews; they process staff appointments; they're Involved in the staff selection boards and they're involved in a whole host of activities that you can normally think of in a personnel department. MRS. C.

OLESON: Would they be involved in training of field workers to deliv er the social assistance? HON. L. EVANS: We have one person who specializes in that kind of training located in the Economic Security Division because there's so much work involved it makes sense to put that person right in that division. MRS. C. OLESON: This six staff members does not reflect that, that training staff person. HON. L. EVANS: That's correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Klrkfield Park. 2607

n...d •J, 4 June, 1985 MRS. G. HAMMOND: The Affirmative Action Program, how many women have been promoted due to the affirmative action? HON. L. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, we'll have to take that as notice and get the information for the honourable member. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Could the Minister indicate who is in charge of the Affirmative Action Program in his department? HON. L. EVANS: Excuse me, was the member asking for the name of the person, because the Affirmative Action Program is under the Personnel Services Branch that I've just described. I could give you the name of the department head.

The Manager of this branch is Gisela Rempel and she's responsible for the Affirmative Action Programs. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(f)(1)-pass; 1.(f)(2)-pass. 1.(g)(1 ) Systems and Computer Support Services: Salaries; 1.(g)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a couple of ads from this department, one dated the 23rd of February and one the 18th of May, which appear to me to be exactly the same ad. They're asking for a systems specialist with the Systems and Computer Services Branch. Could the Minister tell me if that was for two people or one person and has that person or those people been hired? HON. L. EVANS: The ad is for the same position.

We weren't able to get a satisfactory applicant from the first round so we advertised again and the board is still to be held, will be held shortly. MRS. C. OLESON: So you're just hiring the one person. This area reflects an increa se in staff, so I just wondered if that was that position. HON. L. EVANS: There is one add ition to the staff , as shown here, administrative analyst position, but it's not this parti cular competition that the member was referring to. lt's not that particular advertisement. MRS. C.

OLESON: Last year in Est imates the Minister mentioned that there was a computer service go ing to be instituted for social allowance payments. What stage Is this program and is this person that is being hired going to be Involved in that program ? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, this individual that was referred to by the member in the advertisement will be assigned to work on the automat ion project for the Social Allowances Program and a great deal of the work of this

part icular sect ion is at the present time involved In that area, that is, the soc ial allowances automation project is a massive development. lt's a massive step forward. I don't know why we haven't had it years ago but, at any rate, we are bringing it in and of course cost-shar ing with the Federal Government. MRS. C. OLESON: How soon will it be able to be in position? HON. L. EVANS: We hope in about 18 to 24 months from now. MRS. C. OLESON: This area reflects an $84,000 increase. Could the Minister explai n that? HON. L.

EVANS: I'm just going to say regarding the other item , this is the largest automati on project in the Manitoba Govern me nt, so it is a very massive undertak ing and we have to be very careful. We 're dealing with records of thousands of people and we have to be very certain that we 're establishing it on a firm basis . Now , I didn't hear the other quest ion - (Interjection) - Okay. Last year the costs wer e in there on a part­ year basis; this year we 're showing full-year costs, so that accounts for the large increase. MRS. C. OLESON: Is that in salari es? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, it's in the salaries. MRS. C.

OLESON: What are the Minister and his department putting in place to protect the security of the records that are being put into the computer system? HON. L. EVANS: We 're not putting any records in yet, but that's part of the design probl em , to ensure that there is proper security. HON. C. OLESON: Will these be only available in this department for the purpose of social assistance, or will they be available to other departments for other reasons? HON. L. EVANS: We ll , essentially this is available only for the purposes of this program.

There are other computer systems In the government under other organizations, but we're still in the process of putting this toge ther. The organization hasn't been completed. MRS. C. OLESON: I would think that probably be one of the most Important aspects of that program Is to have its security very, very tight, so that people would not be loath to have their records put Into it with a fear of someone else having access to them, either by accident or by design. HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I certainly agree with the honourable member.

I can tell you from my brief experi ence here that social allowance recipi ents are very, very concerned about mainta ining the confident iality of their positi ons vis-a-vis our department. We are very, very careful to do what we can to protect the security at the present time, and it becomes a bit more complicated and we 're in a different dimension once you automate. So I appreciate the member's concern. MRS. C. OLESON: I think probably the Minister will remember a case that I had mentioned to him earlier this year, in the case that Mrs.

Hammond Is currently working on, where this woman's medical record - 1 bel ieve it was , if I recall correctly - was sort of handed around without her knowledge. 2608

TuesdaJ, 4 June, 1185 I think we would have to look at this with great care to be sure that that sort of thing didn't happen again , because people are very, very concerned, as well they should be, when they hear of sheets of computer paper be ing blown around in the stree ts and it becomes a horror story and people just do not wish to have their personal files treated in that sort of manner. I hope the Minister Is taking every precaution with this.

One thing I was wondering Is, how long do you currently keep the records of someone who has been on soc ial security in the present form, in the files that they prese ntly exist in? How long after the case has terminated, shall we say, how long do you keep those records? HON. L. EVANS: Seven years. To comment on the first item , I owe a letter to Mrs. Hammond and it's been in the system for awh ile and I've had staff double check this and the letter is going out today.

But I just want to say, on those records the member refers to, this matter was referred to the Manitoba Ombudsman and the Ombudsman di d clear the department. The department was not responsible for handing out any Information. We don't know how the information got out, but the Ombudsman has written in his report that the department had no blame , had no involvement in that. MRS. C. OLESON: If you have the records on computer, would there be the same seven-year retaining of records as there has been with written files? HON. L EV ANS: I would imagine so.

My understandi ng is that it's a legal requirement so we will follow the same procedure. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, perhaps I missed it, but I don't think the Minister explained the reason for the increase In salaries. There's one addit ional person being hired and the salaries are going up $80,000.00. HON. L. EVANS: Last year, Mr. Chairman, it was a new branch that was established. The positions were filled only for part of the year. Those same positions are now filled and must be paid for on a 12-month basis, so that Is the explanation. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1.(g)( 1)- pass ; 1.(g)(2)-pass. There shall be no resolut ion on this Budget item because of the deferral of the Minister's Salary. The Member for St. Norbe rt . MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I was busy and tied up. I wonder If the Minister would agree to go back to 1.(

c) Research and Planning. MR. CHAIRMAN: lt's not the Minister , it 's the comm ittee. Is there leave on the part of the committee to do this? (Agreed) There being leave, Mr. Minister, what is your discretion? HON. L. EVANS: We ll, the only problem is the director of that branch left, I think - or is he out there? He was here before but after it was passed he left. However, we'll try to track him down but maybe the member could ask a question. MR. CHAIRMAN: You can ask the quest ion on the Minister's Salary. HON. L. EV ANS: Or you could ask it on my salary. I don't mind answering it now.

If we can answer it, it'll certainly ... MR. CHAIRMAN: If we can answer them without any specifics, why not? The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , I thank the Minister and the committee . I apologize for not being here when this item was being dealt with. I'd like to ask the Minister if he could indicate whether the Research and Planning area have looked at long-term employment trends in Manitoba? HON. L. EVANS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that would be one of their functions. MR. G.

MERCIER: Could the member give us that information as to what conclus ions this department has come to with respect to long-term employment trends? HON. L. EVANS: When the member talks about trends, of course, that might imply future and that is always a difficult question. The most difficult thing in the world is to forecast. I could comment on some of the recent labour force results and try to put that into perspective because , I think the member would agree, just to look at one month alone is not a very good indicator, you should take a number of months.

In fact, you should take it In perspective number of years and I could comment on that if you like. I don't think we have any specif ics as to long-run employment numbers for the province. At least I don't have it with me here. I could do that If you like. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, as far as I'm aware , certa inly, the federal department have forecasts of long­ term employment numbers that are four or five years down the line and from time to time we read about them In the news media.

Is the Minister saying that this department has done no forecasts of employment or unemployment rates In Manitoba for the next three to five years? HON. L. EVANS: I am advised, Mr. Chairman, that the department or this branch does not do forecasts of that nature - three years or five years or seven years or whatever - but we do rely on the various forecasts that are coming out of the national forecasting agencies such as the Co nference Board in Ca nada.

Of course, the Federal Government does some forecasting in its financial Budget and so on and we utilize these, but we haven't done this exerc ise , I understand. MR. G. MERCIER: Pardon me, the Minister said the department hasn't done this exercise? HON. L. EVANS: I'm advised by staff that we do not conduct forecasts of employment of that type. 2609

MR. G. MERCIER: Well, how does the department live up to what is set out in the Annual Report? In the overview, it indica tes this department monitors emp loyment trends in the province and develops policies and programs designed to stimul ate economic growth and employment generation in the most effective mann er. Page 46 indica tes that this particular department co-ordinates the department's lead roles within the Provincial Government with respect to training and strategy development, income security policies and labour market matters. I'm led to believe from the reading of the department's report . MR.

CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. MR. G. MERCIER: I'm not finished, Mr. Chairman. I'm led to believe from the department 's Annual Report for 1984 that there Is some forecasting done within this department for the Minister in order that the Minister can perform this lead role with respect to labour market matters. HON. L. EVANS: Well certainly, Mr. Chairman, we are In a lead role with respect to labour market matters. We are concerned about developments and we do the research by looking at past trends, but as far as forecasts are concerned, we get the data from the forecasting agencies that are available.

So, we look at that. I find that there has been quite an increase in the number of forecasting agencies. I see the banks are into it, the Royal Bank of Canada, as well as various Institutes, the Conference Board and so on. In fact, the Conference Board actually tabula tes a dozen or more forecasts by these various organizations, so you can see, almost calculate an average of forecasts of various basic economic indicators. We use that data. When I said we don't do forecasting, I mean we're not engaged in the original forecasting. We use forecast information. We use the information from other agencies. MR. G.

MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, then using the forecasting Information that comes from other sources, what conclusions has the department come to with respect to long-term emp loyment or unemp loyment trends In Manitoba? MR. CHAIRMAN: We are now verging on a speculation as to the future. I don't know about the relevance of this in any Item here. HON. L EVANS: Well, Mr. Chairman, we can talk about it. This is a very interesting subject and we can spend hours and hours discussing our impr essions of what's going to happen in the next several years.

The difficulty is, particularly at the provincial level, we're subject to so many outside forces that it Is, I think the smaller the province the more difficult it Is to be satisfied with long-term projections and so on.

But we do have some impressions as to what has hap pened and likely what might be happening in the immediate future. · As I said, if the Federal Government brings In a new Budget as it did recently, it's going to have certain impact on employment opportunities in the future and the Federal Government has made some - in fact I guess they did not make estimates this time of the jobs to be created by their own Budget. I would think the member would agree with me that that Budget, with all of Its programs, particularly business Incentives, is going to have some Impact, to what degree I don't know.

But it will have some Impact on job creation In Manitoba. I could just comment though, if the member Is Interested, on some general observations as to what's been happening. During the past nine months our emp loyment growth has slowed considerably and our seasonally adjusted unemployment rate has remained unacceptably high, ranging between 8.5 and 9 percent. During the same period the national employment growth has been fairly strong and the Canadian average unemp loyment rate has been generally declining.

Our unemployment rate now is the third-lowest In the country in recent months and, of course, last year I guess it was about the second-lowest. it seems that we have some kind of a temporary lull, and again it's an observation we're making from looking at the numbers supplied by Stats Canada and the labour force statistics, that after several years of above­ average performance, there Is something of what I would hope to be a temporary lull In employment growth.

I would comment that our province, our provincial economy and our labour market were less adversely affected by the recession than most other provinces and we continue to perform above the national average through the Initial post-recession period. More recently our employment conditions appear to have stabilized while conditions in some of the other provinces, notably Ontario and Quebec, the industrialized provinces, have been Im proving recently after several years of very poor growth and relatively high unemployment.

So in looking at everything, I think we have to consider that, first of all, we have had above average performance relative to other provinces and the national average through the recession and post-recession periods. Manitoba's improved performance relative to the other provinces In the national average during 1981- 84 period compare very favourably with the 1977-81 period, when the honourable member .was In government. These are not my figures. These are the figures that are available from Stats Canada.

I think the size In positive impacts of our government's efforts to combat unemployment during the past several years are a factor to take Into consideration and we have to take Into consideration the negative Impacts of some of the recent Federal Government cutbacks. The member is well aware of some specific examples that you can look at. I suppose one of the more recent ones is Pinawa - what's going to happen there with regard to reduction of jobs? I'm not commenting on whether that was a good decision or a bad decision, I'm just saying there's the fact.

If there's going to be a cutback, there's going to be some loss of jobs at Pinawa. To the degree to which that will have a negative impact, we're not yet clear. · I think and would hope that generally we are a fairly stable province, and I think generally - and this Is just an impression that I have - that In long-term we should continue to have a relatively low unemployment rate 2810

"''undey, 4 June, 1985 because we have had for so many years; and I think we should continue to grow at a fairly steady pace in terms of our employment. As I said, we recovered rather quickly after the reces sion; that recovery having been achieved, it looks like a bit of a lull. But I would hope that as we proceed, we'll continue to see a positive incr ease in our employment situation; that we will continue to have a larger population. Our population is growing, therefore our labour force is growing. I would like to think that in the years ahead we're going to have satisfactory employment growth.

I'd like to think that, but I haven't got any crystal ball that I can look into or magic wand to make this happen. I think we have to be cognizant of our various problems and do whatever we can to stimulate the private sector and do whatever we can in government, as we are through the various job programs, such as the Manitoba Jobs and Training Program, to help business hire people and to train people and do wh atever we can to help get people off social allowances, as we are in our various human resource opportunity programs. There are so many things to be done.

I think the important thing is that you recognize that there is a problem; that there have to be improvements, and that you dedicate your resources to making those improvements. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Min ister is reluctant to deal with forecasts of the future of employment trends. Perhaps we could deal with the past year.

The latest labour market bulletin put out by his department ind icates that over the past year, going back to April 19 84, that Man itoba's actual unemployment rate was up .5 percentage points from April of 1984, that Manitoba ranked eighth best of all provinces in terms of percentage point changes over the year; and this was at the same time as Canada's actual unemployment rate was down .6 percentage points from April 1984. In addition, the unemployment rate among the youth rose in Manitoba, whilst the national rate went down.

Now this is in a context where the Manitoba labour force only went up .2 percent over April of 1984, while the Canadian labour force grew by 2.6 percent, between April of 1984 and April of 1985. So we went up and Canada went down and we had a much smaller percentage increase in the labour force in Manitoba compared to the national average with .2 percent compared to 2.6 percent. In addition Man itoba had the ninth fastest rate of employment growth between April 1984 and Apri1 19 85, and along with Newfoundland, was one of only two provinces with employment declines over the year.

Actual unemployment was up to 3,000 perso ns from April 1984, while the number of unemployed persons in Canada decreased by 10 9,000, or to compare it to April of 1984, was 31 ,000 lower than April of 1984. My question to the Minister is, does the Min ister have a report from his Research and Planning Department that would attempt to analyse why Manitoba is going against the national trend? Have they identified the reasons why, in Manitoba, this is happening? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Johns, while the Minister is conferring with his staff. MR. D.

MALINOWSKI: I would like to find out from what statistic is he using, the Honourable Member for St. Norbert? HON. L. EVANS: There are a number of reasons, but I think the member - I don't know whether I heard him right - I think the member's taking one month and comparing it to the previous month. MR. G. MERCIER: No, one year, April'85 to April'84. HON. L.

EVANS: As I indicated, the same month of the previous year, and what I'm sayi ng Is if you take the performance, I'm satisfied , in the years'82,'83,'84 - three years in which we've been in government, the three full calendar years, the rate of job creation in Manitoba has been totally above the Canadian rate of job creation. That's in sharp contrast to what happened in '77-8 1, and you can chart it. I don't have the chart with me, but you can chart that and you can see that for four years Manitoba's rate of job creation was below the national average for the entire four year period.

The first three years that we've been in office we've been above the national average. I believe I explained that as far as we could see, the reas on, there's been a bit of a slow down in the early part of'85 because we believe we recovered from the recess ion more quickly than some of the other provinces, so we've come up there. Ontario and Quebec, in particular, that lag behind, are coming along at this point. One could make all kinds of conjectures as to why particular trends and patterns are evident.

The fact is that there are many sources, many factors affecting the level of employment and whether it be the Federal Budget, whether it be the United States economy, whether it be Provincial Government programs, I've never said that Provincial Government programs alone - nor can anyone say - would have the impact and would be the final policy area that would impact on the level of employment.

Ob viou sly, we're not an eco nomic island unto ourselves; obviously all these factors are occurring, but I would say this, that if you recognize there is a problem of less than satisfactory rate of employment growth, less than satisfactory rates of unemployment, that you should do something about it, as we are trying to do, through the Manitoba Jobs Fund and all the programs that we are making our best efforts to correct the situation.

We can double the size of the Manitoba Jobs Fund but if the Federal Government brings in a Budget that's going to hurt our economy, that's going to cut back jobs here or if something happens to the United States economy that has an adverse effect on us, you're still going to have a relatively poor unemployment situation.

What's happened in Ontario and Quebec, these are the centres of man ufacturing in Canada and manufacturing has rebounded and they have been the beneficiary of that recovery, as far as I can asce rtain; but I'm satisfied that in the three full calendar years that we've been in government,'82,'83,'8 4, our rate of job creation has been above the national average, which 2611

Is in sharp contrast to the years '78,'79,'80 and'81 when Manitoba, throughout that period, was below the rate of job creation in Canada as a whole. We're getting near the end of our time, but I just want to make this last comment. We have 1 1, 000 more jobs today, over Manitoba's peak employment level, prior to the reces sion, and if you take it on that basis, it's a 2.4 percent Increase which compares to the federal or national increase of only 1. 9 percent. So I think if you put it into perspective, I think that we don't come out looking too badly.

Having said that, we're determined to do whatever we can, through all of our job programs, to stimulate the economy and provide employment opportunities for Manitobans. MA. CHAIRMAN: The hour is now 4:30 p.m. We are interrupting the proceedings of this committee for Private Members' Hour. Commi ttee members shall return at 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee, come to order. We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture, Item 6.(dX1) Manitoba Natural Products Marketing Council. HOUSE BUSINESS MA. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Government House leader. HON. A.

ANSTETT: Yes , Mr. Chairman, before we commence the Estimates, I neglected to advise honourable members when we were still in the House that the other

section of the committee will begin consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security today, having completed Government Services last evening. I believe members on both sides were aware of that but I thought it should be on the record. Agriculture will be continuing here in the House, as soon as the Mini ster has his House books here with him. MA. CHAIRMAN: Under consideration is Item 6.(d), the Manitoba Natural Products Marketing Council -t he Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman, I have three areas that I want to discuss with the Min ister this afternoon. They're all cantered upon the quota allocations under this line of the Estimates. One is to do with dairy producers; the second one is to do with a group of egg producers in my constituency; the third one is to with broiler production. I believe the easiest way and maybe the most topical way now is to deal with the dairy producer. I'll lay out a scenario for the Mini ster of a problem a constituent of mine is having. lt's a family farm. The son is now taking a more active involvement in the fa rmin g operation.

The father owns or has a dairy herd with a quota that has been sufficient for his needs over the years. lt's a fluid milk quota. The son wishes to expand that fluid milk quota. They have plans on the books right now to renovate their existing barn and add a new milking parlour.

One of the problems that they have run into in the last sever al weeks, since the Min ister has seen the change to the quota allocation in the milk production field and allowed that change to come into force, they are presented with a problem that they cannot obtain additional quota, so that the son can get Into the dairy business in a way which will help him stay on the family farm and become part of the farming community In my constitu ency. Now they point out to me that they know of two instances, Mr.

Chairman, where, unfortunately, a dairy farmer who holds a reas onable amount of quota, these two individuals find that they are severely ill with cancer and they have to get out of the dairy business. In the two instances where the farmers are getting out of the dairy business, the sons wish to take over the farm, but they only want to take over the grain and cattle portion of the farms. They do not wish to take over the dairy aspect of the farm; therefore that dairy quota will eventually be freed up.

Under the previous sys tem, if my constituent purchased some of the cows from either of those retiring farmers who are currently holding a dairy production quota, milk production quota, they could have achieved the expansion In their dairy operation that they desire and which will make their operation viable. Now they cannot do that unless they purchase the entire farming operation. No. 1, they don't want to do that. No. 2, the sons otthe two farmers I've mentioned, who are getting out of the business, want to take over the farm. So the farm Is not for sale as a complete entity; only the dairy cows are for sale.

This Minis ter has now got regulations In place which prevent the purchase of the cows and the transfer of the dairy quota to anybody and my constituent Is now caught In that situation. What I'd like the Minister to give me today is a method by which - and these people with the summer season upon them, want to do their barn construction now. lt's only logical. lt's the time of the year when they can get it done economically, etc., etc. Can the Minister ind icate to me the process, No. 1, by which this constituent of mine can receive that additional quota? And .

No. 2, can he give me an indication of what success my constituent will have In achieving that additional quota, to make the dairy operation something that's viable enough for the son to become part of the family farm? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, the honourable member cites a scenario that Is not any different than 400-odd producers who are on the list and have been for a numb er of years. The honourable member, in his scenario, paints a picture that there is enough quota to satisfy everyone's need. There Isn't enough quota.

If I were to stand here and advise the honourable member that there is enough quota and has been enough quota to satisfy · everyone's needs, Mr. Chairman, there wouldn't be the difficulty In the industry that is going into place. Mr. Chairman, the Milk Marketing Board presented to the government last Ju ly, a marketing plan, in which 2612

Tuesday, 4 June, 1985 they, as part of the principals of the marketing plan, the allocation of quota was part of those principles. They stated in that marketing plan that there shall be no value for quota. Within one month of the government accepting that marketing plan, I met with the elected members of the Marketing Board, wherein they ind icated they wanted to present to me a proposal to, in fact, have value for quota, and that's where the discussions began and that's where we have ended up where we are today.

The board has been totally reluctant to deal with any other issue of dealing with the types of expansions and the types of changes that the honourable member suggests. I don't think that there is any system , other than going to a buy-and-sell position, that will deal with anyone who wants to buy quota, if anyone wants to buy and by-passes the list of producers who had been on the list up to this time, who had been waiting for quota. Mr.

Chairman, the board was able to and would have been able to deal with - as I mentioned last night and I'll repeat it again for the honourable member - had they allowed the system of partial transfers and the retrieval of a percentage of the quota from partial transfers and the Internal amount of quota that might be available, of non-utilization. Those two processes would have allowed approximately between 75 and 100 producers to be removed from the list of producers wishing an increase in quota a year. That's what they could have dealt with.

That was red uced when the council and the board decided to lessen the amount of holdback on partial herd transfers to 20 percent, and as a result, less producers would have been dealt with. But the list was there and the board was either unwilling or not prepared to deal with those people on the list, and as a resu lt we've had a number of years of buildup of people wanting quota and the board not providing the basic opportunities through dealing with those people who had lined up for some quota in years back and basically the list grew and grew and the producers became more and more frustrated.

As a result, we had only one solution to the problem and that was, throw the system wide open and let's buy and sell quota and that's the options, Mr. Chairman, we have rejected up to this time. There are other options and we've put them to the board and to producers in the province, of dealing with the problem, but I can't tell the honourable member and he wants an answer that that problem can be solved. Mr.

Chairman, when I attended a public mee ting in Te ulon, discussing quota, the Chairman of the Milk Marketing Board indicated that even the system that they were proposing would not deal with the situation that the honourable member is putting forward here, because their intention was to limit the amount of value for quota and that's basically the PEI model and using the PEI model, the board would have had to be, in fact, sitting down and providing for rules of how quota would be distributed because there is no secret that there are more takers than there are sellers on the amount of quota that is available today.

MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Min ister indi cates that there Is a list of either existing producers who want to expand or of producers who want to get into the business as new entrants to the milk production business. Can the Min ister ind icate the distribution method by · which quota, as it's freed up, is allocated? Is it on a first-come, first-served basis, so that he whose name is at the top of the list receives the first available quota or is there some consideration given throughout the system so that family farms, In