Manitoba Hansard — 21 April 1982 (Sitting 38, 32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-38

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

I - • - . LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Presenting Petitions ... PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for ln kster. MR. DON SCOTT (lnkster): I beg to to present a petition of F.G. Holdin gs Ltd. praying for the passing of

an Act to grant additional powers to F.G. Holdings Ltd . MR. SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions .. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Flin Flon. MR. JERRY T. STORIE (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has consider ed certain resolu tions, di rects me to report progress and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honour able Memb er for Kildonan that the report of the Comm ittee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney General. HON.

ROLAND PENNER (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the Report of the Man itoba Law Reform Comm ission on In ves tment Re visions under The Trustee Act. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able First Min ister. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I believe it is particularly appropriate that I rise today to remind members that it is the birthda y of Her Majesty the Queen. Th is past weekend, Cana dians saw Her Majesty participate as Queen of Canada in one of the most historic moments of this century.

Ther e is no doubt that her personal participation made the patriation ceremony more meaningful to people in this and to every other provi nce in Canada. Her par ticipation signified the fact that the one aspect of her Cons titution and system of govern ment which is universally accepted, is the Monar chy. Her Majesty has lived a life dedi cated to public service and to the public good . Her personal warmth and dign ity have increased the devot ion felt by her subjects to the monarchy.

In addition, she has contin ued the splen did trad ition of British monarchy, its adapt ability to change in the structure and system of govern ment over decades and, indeed, centuries.

I think that all of us in this Chamb er can heartily endor se the state ments by Her Majesty in her add ress to the nation, Satuday last, in particular I note her comment s that, "Perhaps the most significant step in Canada 's his tory was the decision of the communities to take pride in their several languages and cultures rather than to deplore the differences." Her praise of the genius of Canad ian federalism's ability to overco me differen ces through reason and compromise and her declara tion of unbounde d confidence in this country.

While referring to the historic nature of Her Majes ty's most recent visit, I also want to note the unique distinction conferred upon the Honour able Leader of the Opposition. To my kn owledge, he is the only Pro vincial Leader of the Opposition who has ever been a member of Her Majesty's Privy Cou ncil for Canada. I am sure all members join with me in congratulating him. I have every confidence after witnessing Satur day's ceremony that the Cana dian Constitution may be changing but the Canadian love and respect for Her Majesty remains as strong as it has ever been. I am sure, Mr.

Speaker, that all member s will join in mark ing Her Majesty's birthda y and exp ressing best wishes and renewed loyalty to her on this occassion at this most historic time in our own kno wn history. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. STERLING LYON (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, we of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition wish to asso ciate ourselves wholehe artedly with the birthda y congratulations and the tribute to Her Majesty expressed so warmly by the First Minister. As the First Minister has said, Mr. Speaker, Queen Elizabeth is beloved by all of her people.

She is now in the 31 st year of her reign and each year of her remar kable reign strengthens our faith in the institution of the monarchy as uniq uely fitting and suitable for Canadians. Her personal strengths of characte r, her grace, her compassion, cause her to be universally loved and ad mired, not on ly in Canada, not only in the Common wealth, but, indeed, in the broader world community.

We certainly join in wishing Her Majesty and her family the fullest measure of peace and good health and contentment in the year ahead. 1700 I personally thank the First Min ister for his refer ence to the fact that he and I joined Her Majesty's Privy Council on Saturday. I think the House would wish to congratulate the Premier of Man itoba on the unique distinction which he holds of being the second Premier of Man itoba in the his tory of our provinc e to be accorded that distinction. God Save the Queen . MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ... In trod uction of Bills INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. If I might di rect the attention of honourable members to the gallery, we

Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 have with us this afternoon 25 stude nts of Grade 9 standing from the John Pritchard School. This school is in the constituency of the Honour able Member for River East. Ther e are five studen ts of Grade 11 standing of the Sisler High School, which school is in the consi tuency of the Honour able Member for lnkster. On behalf of all of the honourable mem bers I wel come you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Lead er of the Opposition. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, a que stion for the First Min ister or for the Attorney-General.

Given the fact that the Bill of Rights is now the law of Canada as pro claimed by Her Majesty the Queen on Saturday last, could the First Minister or the Attorney-General give us an update on the study, which I believe the Attorney-Gener al announc ed some several weeks ago, into those laws of Man itoba which will be found to be in conflict with that Bill of Rights and the kind of proced ure that we can expect that will be followed by this Legislature in making those laws conform with the new Bill of Rights of Cana da? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney -General. MR.

PENNER: I'm sure the Honour able Leader of the Opposition will not mind if I offer a minor correction, it's the Ch arter of Rights. Yes, a study has been autho rized and then approved. and funds allocated through Treasury Board for a study to take place over the summer under the leadership of Professor Dale Gib son of the Faculty of Law, one of Cana da's eminent scholars in the field of constitutional law. It will employ a number of Faculty of Law students at an advanced level and I expect to receive a preliminary report before the end of the summer.

At the same time, of course within the normal process, my Crown Attorneys, the Crown Attorn eys of the Govern ment, may have to face some problems that will inevit ably be raised in the courts. That's to be ex pected and we will be monitoring the reaction of the courts to various sections of the charter very closely. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for La Vere nd rye. MR. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

I wonder if some of the citizens of Ontario claiming that the new Bill of Rights gives them the right to sell and show pornographic, lewd and dirty pictures, books and live productions; I wonder if the Honour able Attorney-General could assure the Man itobans that this type of pornography under the guise of freedom of speech, with regards to the new Bill of Rights, will not be allowed in Man itoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney-General. MR. PENNER: First of all, Mr. Speaker, it is the Char ter of Rights.

I mean, the Char ter of Rights is only two days old and already it has not only been misname d by members Opposite but they're already, it seems to be implied, attacking the Char ter of Rights and throw ing a scare. Of course, there will be people who will raise very seem ingly odd or strange questions in terms of the effect of the Char ter of Rights. I would just like to point out to the House that

Section 1 of the Char ter talks about reasonable limitations. I have faith in the judiciary of this country and in the judi ciary of this provi nce and the Supreme Court of Can ada that the

interpretations that will be given to the Ch arter are going to be such that the honourable members need not fear, as apparently they do, that a flood of pornography will be chasing them down the back streets and into the grocery shops of their com munities, that the charges when warranted and advi:;ied by the police with respect to pornography, will be laid as indeed some have recently. It may be that a defense attorney retained in such cases will raise the question and I have no fear that the floodgates of sin, dam na tion, are about to be opened by this new constitu- 1701 tional instrument. · MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Honour able Min ister of Health. In view of the Minister's comment in Co mmit tee of Supply last night, that the Department of Health will continue to use Home Orderly Services Limited for the provision of personal health care serv ices to wheelchair clients, can the Minister confirm that the govern ment is satisfied that the company is providing an acceptable qual ity of service in what is admittedly, a ver y difficult health care field? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Health.

HON. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I think that I should state here that there has been a rev iew that in fact it being an overc harge, that the Comm ission felt that was an attempt to extort; it was caused by bad booke eping practice. Tha t has been changed with the help of the Comm ission. We will contin ue with this group. It's a very difficult ser vice to provide . It is as good as we can get at this time but like ever ything else, we will keep on look ing and we'll tr y to improve it, but we're satisfied or we wouldn't stay with them at this time if that wasn't the case. MR.

SHERMAN: My que stion is to the Honour able Min ister of Energy and Mines. In view of the govern ment's conclusions following a rev iew of the Ho me Orderly Servi ces Program, and in vie w of the Minis ter's actions during last Novem ber's election cam paign in which he orchestrated a press conference which was used to attack both the service and the gov ernment on a numb er of sensa tional ized, trumped-up and phony charges, will the Min ister now repudiate that cynical and crassly political action that he took at that time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Energy and Mines.

Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 HON. WILSON PARASIUK (Transcona): Mr. Speaker , I don' t kno w the propriety of his question relating to my actions in Opposition but I do note, Mr. Speaker , that the company that I raised concerns about with respect to the possibility of extra-billing, has indeed paid some $1,000 back to the Govern ment of Mani toba after I raised this matter with the Provi ncial Audi tor, even though the Min ister of Health at that time was sitting on his hands through this whole episode. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker , would the Min ister in all hone sty and candour concede that any comment s with respect to book keep ing practices and possible anomalies were welcomed by the govern ment of the day, but that his orchestrated press conference was geared and staged to accuse the service of an unac ceptable qual ity of servi ce, unacceptable response to client calls and general complaints as presented by him, which did not in fact exist and which cast a considerable cloud over what is a ver y difficult service and a unique service. I don't know of any other prov ince that has a service such as that.

Wou ld the Minis ter in candor concede that his press conference was really built around those kinds of charges? MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker , my press conference was built around complaints that had been received by myself from people who were concerned with the servi ce, who had indeed contacted the Minister and felt that the Min ister hadn' t taken any action when he was Min ister of He alth at that time. I had raised this matter with staff of his department . I believe the que s tions, the whole set of questions are out of order, Mr. Speaker , but I'll respond to the out-of-order questions of a sore loser.

MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker , would the Min ister consider responding to the orderl ies and to the public of Man itoba and apologizing to the orderl ies and the public for misleading the public with respect to the quality of service provided in that ver y difficult health care field. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I raised concerns about the fact that there might be extr a billing, that ther e may be instances of public spend ing. Mr. Speaker , when the aud itor took a look at this he found that there was $1,000 of over billing. That matter has been corrected.

Apparently the matter is being rev iewed; apparently the service is improving; apparently the Department of Health unde r a new NDP ad ministra tion is monitoring the situation. The y are trying to improve the service, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased that my colleague, the Min ister of Health, is doing that. I believe that's what the people of Man itoba elected an NDP govern ment for, to prov ide humane, compas sionate and competent government . That's what they are getting. They did n't have it before. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker , I have a que stion for the Honour able Minister of Com munity Services.

I would ask him whether in view of the feigned outrage of the NDP Opposition last year against the govern ment of the day with respect to soup lines at the Salvation Army's Harbou r Light Hostel, whether the Min ister can advise the House now of his position and his attitude this year in the light of increasing numbers in those soup lines and whether , indeed, his attitude this year is one of let them eat soup. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Com munity Services. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker , my attitude this year is the same as it was last year.

In deed, I'm very concerned about anyone in this prov ince of ours who is unemployed, and I would urge honourable members to participate and support the resolution we have on the Order Paper calling for the Federal Govern ment to finally see the light at - (I nterjection)- We ll, Mr. Speaker , blame it on the Feds, the fact is that economists, there are officials of major banks in this. Mr.

Speaker , there's no que stion but that the people of our great province and con cerned persons right across the country recognize the folly of the tight money policy being followed by the Federal Govern ment causing undue high interest rates and causing, indeed, this unemployment which is so unfortunate in our midst. Un til we get a change in that policy we'll continue to see right across Canada , a recession. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I' m having some diffi culty in hearing the Honour able Min ister make his answer. The Honou rable Min ister. MR. EVANS: Well , Mr.

Speaker , I can assure honour able members that this province, this Provincial Govern ment, does inde ed take a humane attitude to all people who are disadvant aged and unfortunate and I'm pleased to note that in our budget we have prov ided more mon ies for dealing with people who have difficulties, whether they're disabled, whether they're physically hand icapped or whatever their condition may be, tha t we are indeed making an effort to be our brother's keeper . MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker , there seems to be a different level of outrage this year on the par t of the Minister of Com munity Services now that his position has cha nged with respect to the side of the House that he sits on. 1702 Mr. Speaker , could I ask the Minister on the remote possibility, the remote possibility that President Rea gan is not able to do anyth ing about the Salvation Army soup lines in Wi nnipeg, what is this Minister and his colleagues going to do about this? MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker , we will do eve rything in the power of the Provincial Govern ment to ensur e an adeq uate rate of economic growth and within my depar tme nt we will do ever ying we can to help those who are less fortunate than ourselves. MR. SPE AKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Lak eside . MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker , I direct this que stion to the Minister of Na tural Resources responsible for the Gull Ha rbour Resort Hotel. I'm in possession of a letter as .. indeed, is the Minister and, I believe, the First Minister, sent to them by a long-time

Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 manufacturer of kitchen food eq uipment in the Prov ince of Man itoba that recently unsuccessfully ten der ed on a substantial order of kitchen eq uipment in that resort hotel, that charges the government with unfair tendering practices. Mr. Speaker, can the Min ister indicate to me, has he had an opportunity to aquaint himself with the issue and is he satisfied that the tenderi ng practices followed in this instance were correct and normal? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Natural Resources. HON. AL MACKLING (St. James): Yes, Mr. Speaker . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, it is usual that the open ing of tender s are done in a public way that other persons tenderi ng for the business are apprised of the suc cessful bid. My und erstanding, and I think it's the information that the Honour able Minister has, that has not taken place in this case. It is also unusual and I find it unacceptable, particularly havi ng listened to the Minister of Municipal Affairs in the last few days in the .

Com mittee of consideri ng of Estimates that a clause that absolutely prohibits any substitution of product other than those designated , and they happen to be mostly of U.S . manufacture, when we have a number of them being manufactured here in Mani toba. Is that, ind eed , in the interests of Man itoba manufacturers competing for govern ment business? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I was advis ed that the normal practice had been followed; I haven't made personal inquiry myself.

I indicated the other day when I was apprised of this concern that a complaint had been registered with the department, that I would be taking a look at it. I've been assured that the prac tice is one that has been followed in the past. How ever, I will ende avo ur to look at the matter personally but I have had that assurance, that ever ything was as it has been in the past. MR.

ENNS: I asked the Min ister or perhaps I'll direct the que stion to the Minister of Govern ment Services, is it not normal proced ure -and the Min istry of Gov ern ment Servi ces does have on staff a sufficient number of architects and other persons kno wledge a ble in setting out the de sign specifications for gov ernment purchases -to, in fact, have a govern ment, a government person set the design qualifications rather than the architect in que stion that was selected to do the job? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Gov ernment Services. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, I believe that either option has been used in the past, although I'm not certain of it, but I will undertake to take that question as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Minnedo sa. MR. DAVID R. (Dave) BLAKE (Minn edosa): Mr. Speaker, I have a que stion for the Honour able Minis- 1703 ter of Govern ment Services responsible for Transpor tation.

At the close of his Estimates he indicated that by the end of last week he would have a decision on those parcels of land representi ng abandoned rail beds on rights-of-way that have been abandoned, he would have some decision on the transfer of title to that property. I wonder if he could give us an up-to date report. MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I've had an opportun ity to rev iew a number of the applications, in particular the correspondence tha t was referred to in questions that were put to me a couple of weeks back and I have instructed the department to carry forward with the transfer of those properties. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Stur geon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, my que stion is to the Minister of Economic Dev elopment and Tourism. The Minister of Resour ces says, as the practice has happene d in the past. We ll, the practice in the past, Mr. Speaker, has been that if there has been a complaint regarding the quo tation system or the purchasing system of the prov ince that the Min ister of Economic Dev elopment inves tigate it. A copy of the letter went to Mr.

Ellis Shippam of the Department of Economic Develop ment and Tourism, has the Min ister or will the Minis ter have Mr. Shippam investigate it and give the Minis ter a full report as to the purchasing of this eq uipment at Hecia Island? And maybe the Minister could find out why a Man itoba manufacturer has been unable to acq uire the other tender ed prices? He doesn't even kn ow why he didn' t get the job, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Eco nomic Dev elopment. HON. MURIEL SMITH (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I will unde rtake to follow up that case. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Roblin-Russell. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin-Russell): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honour able Minis ter of the Envir on ment. I wonder, can the Honour able Min ister of the Envir onment advise the House if poi son bait is still being scattered on the roof of this building to eliminate or cut down the hundr eds of pigeons for years that call that their home? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of North ern Affairs. HON. JAY COWAN (Churchill): Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

I can not prov ide any detailed information to the Memb er for Roblin at the present time and I would only ask him if he could be more specific in respect to his concerns. If he can be I'll be pleased to attempt to provide him with the detailed information which I kn ow he wants and he dese rves in respect to that que stion. If he, in fact, cannot be more specific then it may take me a bit longer to provide that information to

Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 him, but I will certainly under take to do so by way of this commitment. I'll take this qu estion as notice and will await further information from the Member for Roblin, or failing to receive that will proceed on my own to provide him with the type of deta iled informa tion which he deserves. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I'm sure the Memb er for Roblin-Russell has been a member of this House long enough to kn ow that items termed as exhi bits are not allowed within the Chamb er. Does the Honour able Member for Roblin-Russell have a question? MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, it was the Honour able Minister that asked me to produce the evidence and , Mr. Speaker , since pigeons are better kn own in Ottawa circles as "doves" on some special occasions, it was found on the west side of this buildi ng early last even ing. I wond er would the Min ister make su re, I'll give him the carcass. he can conduct an autopsy and advise this House what was the cause of its deat h. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of North ern Affairs. MR . COWAN: We ll, I can't under take specifically to conduct the autopsy on my own.

I would be pleased to receive the carcass which the member has been keep ing in his des k for sometime now - I'm not certain how long - however , without wishing to treat this subject lightly as some of the members opposite are intendi ng to do, I do in fact wish to rev iew the qu es tions which he has aske d and ask my depar tment to -(I nterjection)- and ask my depar tment if, in fact. they will under take the necessary investigations and examinations which will allow them to dete rmine as much as is possible the cause of death of this appar ently deceased pigeon.

Having aske d them to do that, I will end eavo ur to report back to the Member for Roblin with whatever information is available in respect to that distinct cause of deat h of this bird. I hope to be able to do that in the near future. However , I must warn the Member for Roblin that these sorts of inv estigations do take some time and therefore I would just ask his patience in this regard. However , in the meanwh ile I will check with the other Ministers responsible for the buildi ng and I will check with my depar tment.

I will also check with the Minister of Health whom I correspond with and com municate with on many occasions on subjects such as this and the Min ister of Natural Resources, who obviously has some role to play in the protection of wildlife in this provi nce as well. I will provide the In terim Report back to the Member for Robl in in great de tail, as soon as I have it avai lable to me. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker , can I ask the Honour able Minister if he'll be very careful with this case because a similar case likely caused the political downfall and de mise of the former Memb er for Elm wood, when he was Min ister of Govern ment Serv ices. MR. COWAN: We ll, I appreciate the member's advice and I only want to assure him with any questions that he provides to me - and I take this in a ver y serious way - because there is obviously something which has affected this poor bird.

We will want to find out, in fact, what that could be and provid e it to the member and to the House, so that we can have the type of information avai lable to us, which will allow us to make the type of dec isions which we as de cision maker s wish to proceed in making as part of this government. We will get the facts and figures on this and we will provid e it to the Member for Roblin and to members of the Ho use and tell the members who are interested, at our earliest conven ience. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. BRIAN RANSOM (Turtle Mountain): Mr.

Speaker , my question is to the Attorney-General in his capacity as House Lead er. Mr. Speaker , over the past few weeks there have been a number of oral que stions for which we have not received answers. The y've been taken as notice. There have also been several que stions in a written form placed upon the Order Paper. I wond er if the Attorney -General could advise when we might have answers to some of our questions. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Attorney-General. MR. PENNER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker , with respect to the second part of the qu estion, there will be filed in the House tomorrow the reply to the Order for Returns of the Honour able Member for Roblin-Russell. 1704 I have had members of my staff going through Hans ard to correlate notices taken of que stions and answer s given. I ex pect to have that completed by Frida y and will give the answer to the Honour able Opposition Ho use Lead er at that time. We're trying to keep check of those things and I assure the Honour able Opposition House Leader and the other members of the House that we will not leave questions unanswered. MR.

RANSOM: Mr. Speaker , during the rev iew of the Estimates of the Department of Highways and Trans portation and in the review of the Estimates of the Dep artent of Agriculture, a number of questions were taken as notice by the Ministers at that time and were not respond ed to prior to the passing of those Estimates. I wonder if the Gove rnment Ho use Leade r would under take to speak with the Ministers of those depar tments and assure that those que stions also are answered. MR. PENNER: Yes. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my que stion is for the Minister of Ene rgy and Mines.

Some days ago I asked the Minister of Ener gy and Mines about the possible action by this govern ment to redu ce royalties, which might lead to a further pro duction or exploration of oil in this pr ovinc e. Since that time, I understand the Saskatchewan Govern ment has taken some action in this regard and although the Minister of Energy and Mines has said

Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 that he has had no represen tation, I wonder if the Minister of Energy and Mines has given consider ation to the fact that ther e are over 10 0 oil wells in Manitoba that are capable of production but are not producing oil because of the royalties structure. Has that matter been brought to the attention of the Minister and is he consideri ng tak ing some action? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Energy and Mines. MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, I've had consultations with people in the industry and they've never, to date, raised the whole matter of our royalties or taxation being too exce ssive. In fact, I asked them specifically about that and again they commented at that time, that they did n't feel that it was a criticial factor. Ind eed, Mr. Speaker, the statistics indicate that from Janu ary 1 st to April Sth, 19 82, we've had 19 wells drilled in Man itoba compared to five being dr illed between the Jan uary 1 st and April Sth of 19 81 . So it would appear, Mr.

Speaker, that we are havi ng an increase in activity in Man itoba, in part because of incteased prices for new oils. So far. Mr. Speaker, I think I'm pleased with the rate of activity in Man itoba. The only problem that the jun ior oil companies have is a cash flow problem, Mr. Speaker, caused in large part by high interest rates. That has been the pressing problem being faced by not only the junio rs, Mr.

Speaker. but even larger Canadian companies like Turbo Resources, which now has to go through a very critical refinancing and Dome Petroleum which apparently is havi ng difficulty because of the mas sively increased interest rates, caused again by an economic policy that isn't worki ng. So if the Member for Turtle Mountain has concerns about the state of the oil ind ustry and future possible action, Mr.

Speaker, I would hope that he would join with my Premier and our Min ister of Finance in urging the Fede ral Govern ment to lower the interest rates, so that we can stimulate some economic activity in all spheres within this country. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, indeed we have been pleased that the response of the oil companies in terms of new ex ploration, which came about as a conseq uence of our government returning to a policy of leasing Cr own land and to bring our royalty struc ture into line with other provin ces. What I'm con cerned about, Mr.

Speaker, is the question of those oil wells that are capable of production, but are not now prod ucing because of the royalty structure -and this is not something that has come about within the past few months, this is an issue that has existed for some time.

I would ask the Minister, specifically, if he would consult with his department and see whether he has received any communication, whether the depar t ment has received any communication from He ndy's Prod uction and Management Ltd. req uesting that the government calculate their royalties in a different manner in order that some of these oil wells might be put back into production? MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker. I will, in fact, look into the matter raised by the Member for Turtle Mountain.

If ind eed , there were some proble ms with the royalty structure of the previous ad ministration that created some anomalie s, certain ly, I would like to hear about those and I will look into those to determine whether, in fact, any action should be taken especially in light of the fact that there has been some incentives pro vided through the oil pricing arrangement with Ottawa. But, I will certainly look into the matter. MR. RANSOM: Yes , Mr. Speaker, it's partly a ques tion of the royalty structure and partly a question of the Federal Govern ment application of their royalty structure.

Has the Minister made representation to Ottawa to the effect that provincial royalties should be made deducti ble as an expense when calculating fed eral royalties? MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, we have been in nego tiation with the Fede ral Govern ment on all of these matters. We certainly have been raising these points in the past. Ind eed , I can recall it was the previous New Democr atic Par ty Gove rnment that raised ver y serious objections to the actions of the Fede ral Gov ernment when they, in fact, made provincial royalities non -deductible from Feder al In come Tax claims by Man itoba compan ies.

We found that was an anomal ous situation, then an unacceptable situation; we con tinue to find that. I will have to determ ine whether, in fact, the previous ad ministration, under the Conser vat ive Govern ment, made representation during the course of the last four years with respect to this matter and I'll check to determ ine whether, in fact, that was the case but I kn ow certainly that we have been mak ing representation in this matter, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for St. No rbert. MR. G.W.J. (Gerry) MERCIER (St. Norbert): Mr.

Speaker, my que stion is to the Honou rable Attorne y General. Co uld he indicate whether he will be intro duc!ng legislation at this Session, amendme nts to the Hu man Rights Act de aling with manda tory retirement pursuant to the Rothstein In quiry? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Attorney-General. 1705 MR. PENNER: No, Mr. Speaker, I have no intent ion of introducing such legislation in this Session. I have asked the members of the Hu man Rights Commission to rev iew the whole Act. I think tha t it may need rev i sion and that will be one question that the Co mmis sion will be look ing at.

Ther e is also a Cabi net Caucus Comm ittee that will be looking at the Rothstein report and ex pects to review it very closely over the summer. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker. a supplementary que s tion to the Min ister of Labour. Can the Min ister of Labour indicate whether he will be introducing any amend ments to the Civil Service Act de aling with manda tory retirement pursuant to the recommend a tions of the Rothstein In quiry? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Labour. HON. VIC SCHROEDER (Rossmere): That is under rev iew and there is no present intention to introd uce

I Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 any legislation that would be awaiting the report of the committee that is looking into it. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques tion to the Minister of Education. Could the Min ister of Educ ation indicate whether or not she will be intro ducing any amendment s to the Public Schools Act deal ing with the qu estion of mand atory retirement pursuant to the recommend ations of the Rothstein Inquir y? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour ab le Minis ter of Education. HON. MAUREEN HEMPHILL (Logan): No. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I believe the Min ister rose to answer the question. MRS.

HEMPHILL: No. MR . SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for La Vere ndrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I di rect my question to the First Min ister and, in light of the elec tion promise in which he stated that the NOP Gov ernment would provide security of layoffs and 12 months compensa tion to empl oyees would be req uired in the event of shutdowns or layoffs involv ing more than 50 people, I wonder if he could tell the House what he and his govern ment are doing to avo id the layoffs and possible shutdown and the putting out of work of some 300 people at Victoria Leather. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is referring to legislation that involves layoffs, notice of times in regard to layoffs, and certainly it is our intention to deal with those issues during our term in govern ement. In sofar as the question of Victoria Leather, that pertains, as the honourable member kno ws full well, to the general economic circum stance that all parts of Cana da are presently affected by. MR. BANMAN: A supplementar y, Mr. Speaker.

Then in light of the promise that there would be security of layoffs and that 12 months notice or compensation to employees would be req uired in the event of shut downs or layoffs involving more than 50 people, in this particular case that particular el ection promise does not apply to the 300 employees at Victoria Leather. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I think the Honour able Member for La Verend rye should be conscious of the fact that this was not a layoff but, inde ed, was termina tion or employment as a result of the actions of a receiver.

This is qu ite a different item than that which occurred as a result of layoffs under the provisions of The Labour Relations Act. MR. BANMAN: Wel l, Mr. Speaker, I wond er if a com pany that goes into ban kruptcy or is put into receiver- ship is consid ered in the First Minister's terms as a shutting do wn of the operation. As he points out in his promises du ring the election, he did not only refer to layoffs he also refers, in his doc ument which he signed, he refers to shutdow ns, not only layoffs. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, there is qu ite a differ ence, and the honourable member kno ws, between what occurs as a result of receiver ship when there is an automatic termination as a result of the economic circumstances, opposed to that which occurred in respect to Maple Leaf and to Swifts. Let me assure the honourable member that this gove rnment, unlik e the previous govern ment, is exa minin g the provisions of The La bour Act in order to prov ide greater security in the event of layoffs. This is an area tha t, yes, has been neglected ove r the last number of years and this government is quite con scious of that. MR.

BANMAN: So, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question then. The Minister is saying that, as far as the promises were made, they do not apply to the 300 people that face layoffs at Victoria Leather, however, after the government introduces legislation this type of thing will never happen again. Is that what he's telling us? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I regret that again we have to inform the honourable member that what we are deal ing with is not layoffs but we are deal ing with a receiv ership, a bankru ptcy which is qu ite different.

What has occurred , as a result of economic circum stance across the country; what has occurred because of economic policies that are not ser ving the public interest at the present time in Canada. What we're deal ing with is a need for action on the part of govern ments, Feder al, Provincial and elsewhere in the world in order to establish a better economic cli mate. Mr. Speaker, I want to say that we will do all that we can within the provincial jurisdiction, although it be limited, in order to assist dur ing this most difficult time pertaining to ec onomic circumstances.

We are most concerne d in regard to men and women that are laid off. But what we need , Mr. Speake r, is the assis tance and co-operation of the Opposition of other leve ls of govern ment at the senior level; indeed , what we ne ed is a realization that ther e is a requir ement for more positive, direct, activist govern ment in Canada and elsewher e in the world in order to reverse the economic results of fiscal conser vatism in the world. 1706 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my que stion is for the Minister of En ergy and Mines.

Can the Min ister of Ener gy and Mines advise the Ho use whether or not this depar tment is under taking leasing of potash in the McAuley area? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Ener gy and Mines. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, right now we are not under tak ing leasing but I'll check with the depar tmen-

Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 tal staff to see whether, in fact, they've received any enqu iries. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my ques tion is for the Minister of Financ e. Can the Minister of Financ e advise the Ho use whether he plans to be going to the markets with another bond issue shortly? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Finance. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, the qu estion is one that the former Min ister of Finance should well know the answer to.

When we came into govern ment, because of the fact that there hadn' t been sufficient borrowing to keep up with where we were, we were several hundr ed of millions of dollars in short-term loans for the year 19 81 -82. We had the Minister in charge of overd rafts down here and when we went to the market although he was asking the press when we did go to the market to Ne w York, wha t is this person doing? Although he was asking that, he should have kno wn full well that what we were doing was conver t ing those overd rafts and promissory notes into long tertn loans. It was his govern ment, Mr.

Speaker, that put us in lin e last fall before the change of govern ment, for instance, to Japan to see -( lnterjection) yes, exotic dollar s that the former First Minister likes to refer to. It was when he was Min ister of Finance that the govern ment enter ed the line-up for the -(I nter jection)- yes, for the Japane se money market, so he should well kn ow the answer to that que stion. MR. RANSON: Mr. Speaker, we're becoming accus tomed to this battle gab that we keep getting from the Minister of Financ e. My ques tion was, does he intend to go to the market with another bond issue shortly? MR.

SCHROEDER: Wel l, Mr. Speaker, I expect that over the cou rse of the next number of years, we will frequently be going to the bond market. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions havi ng expired, Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY COMMITTEE CHANGE MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Government House Leader. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, first I'd like to annou nce a change with respect to the Comm ittee on Privile ges and Elections for tomorrow: the Honour able Memb er for Flin Flon substituting for the Honour able Memb er for Springfield. Mr. Speaker , would you please call second read ing Bill No. 15 ?

SECOND READING - GOVERNMENT BILLS MR. ROLAND PENNER (Fort Rouge) presented Bill No. 15 , The Marital Property Act, for second read ing. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Attorney-General. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker , Bill 15 is a bill intended to amend certain provisions of The Marital Property Act. Presently, rights under pension plans, annu ity poli cies, life insurance, and accident and sickne ss poli cies are defined in The Marital Property Act as com mercial assets.

As a result of that particular definition the courts have a wider discretion to depart from the very important principle of equal sharing where such assets are divided. Bill 15 defines these rights under pension plans, annu ity policies, life, or accident and sickne ss insurance policies as family assets, thus res tricting the discretion to vary equ al division of these assets. Bill 15 also deals with issues raised in the decision of the Man itoba Court of Appeal in Isb ister versus Isbister.

The court in that case considered the issue of the division of rights under a pension plan between spouses and decided that although pension benefits were, as then defined, commercial assets falling within the scope of The Marital Property Act, that such bene fits consisting of rights arising in the future could not be included in the accounting and div ision of property under the Act, on the grounds that present market value for these benefits could not be de ter mined and also on the further ground that, subject to certain exceptions applying mostly to pensions such as CP P, that such assets could not be split.

This deci sion, that is the Isbister and Isbister decision created a serious problem, as in many marriages a pension plan is the only val uable marital asset. No w, in response to the problem arising from the Isb ister decision, Bill 15 provides that an asset is to be divi ded between spouses even where it consists merely of future rights, and even where there is no certainty at the time of separation, at the time of the division, as to whether this right will be received in the future.

Further, where a present market value canno t be det ermined for an asset because of the peculiar nature of such assets, the court shall never theless attempt to determine a value by using whatever other, that is other than market, valuation method the court deams appropriate. 1707 The present Act empowers a court to make an order preserving an asset, but only where it can be estab lished, by the applicant in the particular proceed ings, that one spouse is -and these are legal terms -dissi pating or absconding with that asset.

Now to ensure that the purpose of The Marital Property Act is not defeated by any prior disposal of asset -that is prior to the court havi ng a chanc e to adjudicate -before a division of property can be made, Bill 15 contains a provision which extends the power of the cou rt and allows the court to make an order for the preservation of assets providing, there fore, this relief to a spouse who may not be able to prove that the extre me situation of dissipation or abs cond ing actually exists but may be able to demon strate that there is an apprehen ded danger of the dissipation of that asset.

The provision also provides that a certificate of what is called "lis pendens," that is, it alerts any poten tial purchaser or mortgagee of an asset, it alerts that person to the fact that there may be litigation pending; that a Cer tificate of Lis Pendens may issue to ensur e

- Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 the preservat ion of an asset, even where the title to real property is not in issue; to further protect the rights of the spouse and to preve nt disposal of an asset before a court order could be made as to what the respective portions of the marital assets are. The Bill will prov ide that such an application for the pres ervation of an asset can be made on what is called an ex parte basis, that is by the one applicant appearing in court without notice. Ordi narily, Mr.

Speaker, new leg islation does not apply to court actions already in progress, however, to overco me as far as possible any hards hips that have resulted from the application of the unamended Act and the effect of Isb ister-Isbister has been to create a great many uncertainties and hardships. To over come that Bill 15 extends these amendm ents to any court proceed ings where no final order or judg ment was given before the date of the first reading of the bill, namely, March 12 , 19 82. I'm, therefore, recommending that Bill 15 , to amend The Marital Property Act be en acted as proposed. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for St. Norb ert. MR. MERCIER: I move, second ed by the Honour able Member for Fort Garry that de bate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Gove rnment House Leader. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconde d by the Min ister of Fina nce that Mr. Speaker, do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into Com mittee of the Whole to consider and report of Bill 18 referred for Third Read ing, The Pari-Mutuel Tax Act.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Comm ittee of the Whole with the Honour able Member for Flin Flon in the Chair . COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE BILL N0.18 THE PARl-MUTUEL TAX ACT MR. CHAIRMAN, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): Commit tee come to order please. The Bill before the commit tee is Bill No. 18 ,

An Act to amend The Pari-Mutuel Tax Act. We will proceed section-by-section.

Section No. 1- pass;

Section No. 2 Im position of tax. The Honour able Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Min ister of Finance, and he possibly may have to de fer to the Min ister of Economic Devel opment and Tourism. The Minister of Economic Dev elopment and Tourism, I believe, Monda y night in Com mittee said that there hadn' t been any decis ion made as to the distribution of these funds that the Provincial Gov ernment collects from the racing that go back to Hor seman's Association and the Horse Breeder s' Associ ation.

I wonder if the Min ister of Finance is able at this time to tell us what the distribution of funds will be of this tax as the races do start on Friday night? MR. CHAI RM AN: The Honour able Min ister of Financ e. HON. VICTOR SCHROEDER (R ossmere): The monies will be applied, as I under stand it, to the Tho roughbred and Harne ss Racing Ind ustry Support Programs originally in the amounts collected .

The details of the program as to how the monies will be applied, as between purse supports, breeders sup ports, or other programs, will be based upon recom menda tions of the Man itoba Hor se Racing Comm is sion and is approved by the Minister responsible. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Member for Virden. MR. HARRY GRAHAM (Virden): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Minister has indicated that the Horse Racing Comm ission has not made any reco mmenda tions to the governme nt as yet. We'r e being asked to pass a measure which gives them additional money, some $948, 000 estimated, I believe the Minister said earlier.

I think it's only fair that members of the Oppo sition should kno w specifically how that money is going to be apportioned? Is it going to be 65 percent to the thoroughbreds and 35 percent to the standar d breds? Is it 55-45, or is it 50-50? Surely the Minister could give us that kind of information at this time; it's fairly important to the horse rac ing ind ustry. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes. Mr. Chairman, I recognize the importance of the que stion. I just would like to say, however, that this tax is just like the other portion of the tax, tha t is it goes to General Reve nue, to the Consolida ted Fund.

It 's not a trust fund type of situa tion. Ther e will be discussions, as I understand it, with .the industry as to the split and I unde rstand the Min is ter of Economic Dev elopment may have some addi tional comments on tha t ques tion. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minister of Eco nomic Devel opment and Tourism. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chair person, we have in fact received a letter of recommenda tion from the Horse Racing Com mission as a result of the process which I have descri bed before. The new Comm ission has met with the groups that are affected in a mixed group and then heard their positions separately.

They have come to a concensus but we are not announcing it until we get a written confirmation from each of the groups, just to eliminate any possible misunde rstanding. But I' ve been very pleased at the process they've gone through and the fact that the conclusion they've reached is a unani mous one. I'll be happy to give the deta ils of that. But I think as you kn ow, when we pass a Tax Act, the specific purposes for which it's to be used are not part of the bill. I'll be happy to give that information though within a few days. 1708 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Memb er for Tuxedo. MR.

GARY FILMON (Tuxedo): Mr. Chairman, if the •

Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 Minister could ind icate who the groups were who participated in this unani mous decision or unanim ous rec om mendation to the Hor se Ra ci ng Commission. My concern is that the wording used by the Min ister of Finance is rather wide open and our original under standing was that the distribution of the funds that were gener ated from this additional tax would go to the horsem en themselv es, i.e. the breed ers and owners.

When he refers to dev elopment in the indus try it could in fact involve capital inv estment and a variety of other facilities that may not necessarily serve to enhan ce the breeders and the owner s who have a fair capital investment in this province, in order to devel op horses themsel ves, both thoroughbred and standar d bred for racing in Man itoba. I wond er if the Minister could just give some clarifi cation so that we might feel a little more comfortable about it. MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker , the groups that they've met with are the breeders and the horsemen in both the standar d bred and the thoroughbred areas, as well as representatives of the track . I ·don't feel free to give the conclusions tha t they have reached but I think they do match the spirit of the comment made by the member opposite.

The reason I have confidence in what's being recommend ed, is that the groups have sat down together and they have listened to the needs as identi fied by one another for a good and healthy track period and the concensus they've reached, shows that they have recognized the needs of the respective groups. As I say, I could jump the gun and give the informa tion but we did under take to wait until we had the written letters from those groups. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. GR AHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, we have now seen a third component thrown into this mix.

When the bill was first introd uced, it was only the breed ers and the horsemen and now the Minister has ind icated that the operators of the track are involved in this as well. I think we're getting into an entir ely different, almost a misrepresenta tion of what the tax was meant for. I was under the impression that it was entirely for the horsemen and the breeders. Now, can the Minister confirm that the $948 million or thousand or whatever the amount is, will go entirely to the horsemen and the breeders? MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chai rman, I repeat that when the tax bill is presented, the specific purpose for which the money is intended is not part of the bill. The intent of the bill is to be an ind ustry de velopment levy. As I say, if it weren't for the agreement we'd made with the groups that we'd wait for the written confir mation, I would n't be hesitant to tell you. I don't like to anticipate but I think you'll be pleased, impressed, surprised perhaps, with the deg ree of consensus and with the way in which the groups have decided to use the industry levy money. I have confidenc e in the recommendations they're making. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Conti nuing with

Section No. 2 - the Honou rable Member for Virden. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would hope the Honour able Min ister would refer to her speech, or the speech that was made when this was introduced on April 8th, because I believe - and I'm going by memory, but perhaps I should go back and read it again - but I believe there was no reference made at that time to the track, it was purely to the horsemen. I would not want to pass a bill under those purposes, when it was exp lained that it was only for the horseme.n and now we find a third component being brought into the mix. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Min ister of Finance. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chai rman, if the member is referring to the introductory remarks that I made, I stated as follows: "As I noted, the reven ues will be used in Horseracing Indus try Dev elopment Programs. The se programs are designed to make our ind ustry competitive with the ind ustry in other provinces and to stimulate the growth of a strong local horsebreed ing ind ustry." MR. CHAIRMAN: Conti nuing with

Section No. 2. No further comments?

Preamble-pass; Title-pass; Bill be reported -pass. Comm ittee rise. Call in the Speaker. The Chairman reported upon the Com mittee's deliberations to Mr. Speaker. IN SESSION MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Flin Flon. 170 9 MR. STORIE: Mr. Speak er, I move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Ellis, that the report of the Comm ittee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Finance. THIRD READING BILL N0.18 THE PARl-MUTUEL TAX ACT MR. SCHROEDER (Rossmere ) presented Bill No. 18 ,

An Act to amend The Pari-Mutuel Tax Act for third read ing. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Virden. MR. GR AHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In my con stituency and in my period of time in this House I have had the privilege of representing constituents who have been involv ed in the horse racing industry and

Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 sev eral of my constituents have distinguished them selves through the years and have provided a very valuable contribution to the enter tainment of people in Manitoba, both in Winnip eg and in rural Man itoba. The racing industry is one that has been in the past, one of good entertainment in the rural circuit espe cially in the stand ard bred field. Ther e have been good crowds of people that attend these races and they have enj oyed the performance of the Man itoba horses.

One of the problems we have seen in the racing industry is the intense competition that is created from other jurisdictions in the racing industry. The states, the Ame rican horses because they have not in the past had an opportunity to race in some of the states, have come to Manitoba but if racing chan ges in some of the northern states - and there is indic a tions that might be occurring - we may be in a posi tion where there would be a shortage of horses to prov ide the enter tain ment that the people are accus tomed to enjoying.

One of the ways that this can be ove rcome is to encourage the breed ing of better race stock in the de velopment of the hor se ind ustry in Man itoba and this move of increasing the pari-mutuel tax could be ver y bene ficial to that if all of the increased money was going to the breeder s, in particular the Man itoba breeder s, of race horses in this provi nce. I'm sure the standar d, the qu ality of horses would improve with additional support and I congratulate the govern ment for doing that.

However , when it was mentioned here just a few minutes ago by the Min ister of Tourism, there is a possibility the track might be also involv ed in some of the shari ng of the reve nue from this particular tax and I have to exp ress my concern at this time in defense of the breed ing ind ustry in Manitoba, both thoroughbred and standar d bred. I say to the Ministers, and the Min ister of Fina nce in particular, that in my opinion the reve nue gener ated has probably some of the best return that the province could ever get in relationsh ip to the money inv ested .

So I would urge the contin uation of support, and this Bill is part of it, for the racing ind ustry to ensur e that we have more Man itoba bred horses, better qual ity Man itoba bred horses for the enjoyment of all of the people of Man itoba who wish to attend the races and see some of our finest qual ity Manitoba horses com peting on the race tracks, both in Man itoba and in the City of Winnip eg. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minister of Eco nomic Dev elopment. MRS. SM ITH: Mr. Speaker , I just wanted to set the record clear.

I was asked the question earlier about what groups were consu lted in the decision about how the levy was to be divide d and that's when I listed the breeders and horsemen both standard and tho roughbred and the track. I did n't say that those were the groups that were to receive a share of the money. So until I can make the annou ncement I thought it important that that clarification be made. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. 171 0 MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Acting Govern ment Ho use Leader. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker , would you call the motion of the Honour able Min ister of Transpor tation and Highways standing in the name of the Honour able Member for Niakwa. ADJOURNED DEBATES - CROW RATES MR. SPEAKER: On the proposed Resolution of the Honour able Min ister of Govern ment Servi ces, stand ing in the name of the Honour able Member for Niakwa. The Honour able Memb er for Niakwa. MR. ABE KOVNATS (Niakwa): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Once again the press has found out that I'm going to be speaking this afternoon and they are here in great numbers. Mr.

Speaker , I rise to speak on this Resolution with a little bit of intrepidation and some concern. Ina smuch as I am an urban member, I represent an urban consti tuency and my background really isn't that much about the rural area and really that's the main effect of this Resolution. Before I get right into the meat of the discussion on the Reso lution, I would just like to bring to the atten tion of the honourable members the very last para graph of the Resolution, it says: "T HER EFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this House express its strong disapproval of the unilateral and socially and economically unacceptable proposal by the federal govern ment to remove the statutory rates on grain." I don't really have any difficulty with that statement. No w, I'm going to get on to the discussion concern ing my being an urban member.

People have come to me and said, Abe what is the Crow rate, and I said well I'm really an authority on it because I have happened to be on the CPR and I've gone through the Cr owsnest Pass so it make s me an authority, almost as much an authority as the honour able members on the govern ment side of the Ho use that have spoken on this matter. But basically it gets right down to when they ask you, what is the Cr ow rate? How does it affect us? How is it going to affect the price of bread ? That's what the people in the Provi nce of Man itoba, particularly urban members want to kn ow.

They really don't understand the Cr ow rate and I do try to ex plain to them what the Cr ow rate is. Now , just as a little bit of a lesson, without too much backgrou nd, my und erstanding of the Cr ow rate is, that the railroad by legislation has been advis ed and that they must transport certain types of grain at a red uced rate, and it's just by legislation anf for no other reason. How does that affect the railroad and the farmer?

Wel l, it affects the farmer because any increase in his costs lessens his profit, lessens the possibility that he's going to stay in business and at this time of the economy he's got to be given every bit as much help as possible. So, therefore we must maintain the bene fits of the Cr ow, otherwise the farming community, and not just in Man itoba, but Saskatche wan and Alberta will run

Wednesday, 21 April, 198 2 into great difficulty, so we're really protecting the farmer and that's what we have to do without hurting the consumer or the railroad. You'v e got to look at the overall picture. You can't just make up your mind on one aspect and say, all right, I support this resolution blindly. There are many aspects that have to be taken into consideration. First of all, can the rail road afford to ship grain at the Cr ow rate and give the service that we want them to give so that the grain will get to market on time? No they can't; they need the help.

The Federal Govern ment must give them that help. If the Federal Gov ernment doesn't give them that help, they canno t maintain the railroad. It affects many other aspects of it. It affects the employees of the railroad . If the rail road is losing money it lessens the opportunity of job security for the people of the rail road, and that's a big concern to me because I' ve got many people that work for the railroad, that live in my constituency. They'r e not complaining, but they do mention it to me.

"Abe, you kn ow, we really can't see that the railroad can ship grain at a greater loss every year because that's what it's becoming." The y have to be given some compensa tion, and the Federal Govern ment is the one that has to give that compensation.

I'm very very unhappy with the attitude of the New Demo cratic Party inasmuch as their feeling towards the Cr ow, not that they support maintaining the bene fits of the Cr ow, that's all right, I accept that, but the manner in which they go about in a political manner , trying to get across to the farmer, playing with the important aspect of supporting the farmer and using it as a political ploy, under the guise of defeating a Federal Government, which under the guise of an increased gasoline tax, the Ne w Democr atic Party de feated that Progressive Cons ervat ive Govern ment that was, in all intents and purposes, going to main tain the bene fits of the Cr ow.

The New Democr atic Party without thinking ahead at all, just for the sake of de feating the govern ment, supported the Liberals and out they went. Now, we're stuck with the Liberal Govern ment and here's the New Democratic Party on one hand saying, defeat the govern ment that's going to give us the Cr ow and support the government that is not going to maintain the Crow and that's what they've done. I have a few que stions to ask and a few ans wers I need to be given to me. It's qu ite an emotional issue this Cr ow.

It affects the future of the farmers in the Prov ince of Man itoba and I can tell who are the farmers -t he ones with the dirt on their boots and it's good clean dirt - so I would accept that the honour able member and I keep forgetting - The Pas, Flin Flon - it's qu ite an emotional issue and I think that we've got to look at it rather than on an emotional issue we've got to look at it, the facts the figures and take in the whole picture. We can't keep blaming the previous ad ministration; we can't keep blaming the CPR railroad for all the things that happened in the past, it's over and done with.

Can we keep blaming the people that we had -(I nterjection)- you'll have to speak up because really I have a little tr ouble hearing and actually I don't want to hear but I have trouble heari ng anyway -(I nterjection)- 171 1 Some of the questions that have to be answer ed are, who's going to pay for the transportation of grain? I guess there's no other question tha t could be so important. Who's going to pay for the transpor tation? I'm a consumer. Am I going to pay for it? Maybe I should pay for it a little bit. I think the railraod has to take their chanc es and be given some subsidy.

They should be transporting the grain and not at a loss. The y shouldn't be going into the business and transport it as a loss because I hear of all the bene fits the railroad has got, the land and all the different businesses that they've gone into. But really, should we be holding that against the transportation system of the rail road? I say no, there's no reason to be doing SO. Should we be blaming the people that we fought in the last war? We' re friends with them now, it's over and done with. I think the benefits that they rece ived are long gone and we have to look on the basis of what's happening today.

Let's not criticize the rail roads for the things that happened in the past. I think I' ve got to go back a few years - particularly the CPR - I think that there's a bit of a conflict con cern ing the CPR inasmuch as a few years back my mother was telling me tha t my grandfather helped build the CPR rail road hotel here in the City of Win nipeg, The Royal Alexander Hotel - it's gone now - but just as a passing remark so there's a long ways back with the CPR. The things that have happened in the past have been corrected somewhat.

We've learned to live with it but we do have that basic decision that we have to make right now and our decision in Manit oba and Saska tchewan isn't going to be that important. We' re going to tell the Feder al Government how we feel -and the Resolution isn't that bad - we're going to tell them how we feel in the Province of Man itoba, how we feel as farmers, how we feel as consumers, how we feel about the solidarity of the east and the west beca use it's dev eloped into a fight between the east and. the west because of the advantages that they have over in Eastern Canada.

The se are all the things that have to be considered. The employees of the CPR rail road have to be con sidered; the farmers have to be consider ed; the con sumer and all of the people in the Provi nce of Mani toba. Rather than make it into a political ploy, let's all work together in this regard like the Min ister had suggested ; he's ce rtainly going to have my support in working together for the bene fits of the Province of Man itoba, particularly the farmer in the Provi nce of Man itoba, but, I'm not going to turn against the rail road, the employees of the rail road.

You can't do that; you've got to take it all into consideration. The Federal Govern ment has to be encouraged to support the railroad in subsidizing the shipping of grain so that the benefits of the Cr ow can be maintained. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for River East. MR. PHIL EYLER (River East): Thank you, Mr . Speaker, it's urban da y today, the Memb er for Thom pson says. Lik e the Memb er for Nia kwa, I too, am an urban MLA and this is not simply a rural issue, it

Wednesday, 21 April, 19 82 is an economic issue of vital imp ortance to everyone in Man itoba. So, I would lik e to take this opportunity to add a few words of support to this side for this resolution. Mr. Speaker, we're all aware that the Federal Gov ernme nt has proposed the removal of the Crow rate, that special frei ght rate for grains which has applied in western Canada sin ce 18 97. But what we don't really know is why. The Federal Govern ment has gi ven us a few reasons and we've all heard the statistics.

By 19 90 it is expected that coal will incr ease in frei ght traffic by 278 percent; potash will be up 15 0 percent; sulphur will be up 25 percent. Mr . Pepin tells us that the rail- - roads are going to have to expand and upgrade their facilit ies throughout the west. That's true, I have no quarrel with that. If there is an expenditur e of $13 billion required over the next eight years to upgr ade rail facil ities, let them invest it. My problem is why do you ask the farmers of Man itoba to pay for this? Last year in 19 80. CPR had internally generated investment capital of $2.3 billion.

Over the next eight years, that's certainly enough to pay for all of the investment which is requir ed to upg rade the rail facili ties through the Rocky Mountains. Tha t's where all of this is going. Four percent of that investment will be in Man itoba. Almost all of it will be in the Rock ies. in Alberta and Br itish Col umb ia. So, why are the farmers of Man itoba asked to pay for that investment? Furtherm ore, for the Memb er for Mo rris, a lot of the federal position is based on dubious st udies. Mr.

Sna vely, a highl y paid Washing ton consu ltant was brought in to do a theoretical study of the costs of the rail ways and his theories just didn't coincide with real ity. Mr. Speaker, the Sna vely Report est im ated costs for CN-CP for 19 80 and that estimate was $1. 3 billi on hi gher than the actual costs reported by the railways in 19 80; $1. 3 billion of ficti tious costs invented by Mr. Sna vely. Furthermor e, Mr. Sna vely said that the CN would lose $724 million in 19 80 and the audi tors said there was a profit of $250 milli on. Mr .

Sn ave ley said that CP would lose $19 4 million and the annual report for CP reports that there was $277 mil lion profit. Mr. Speaker, the Memb er for Mo rris says it's a long way from $13 billion, but those are the profits, those are not the capital reinvestements. Mr. Speaker, what will happen if Mr . Pepin gets his way? The value of agricultur al products in Manit oba will drop by $61 million; net farm income will decline by $40 milli on; the secondary im pact on the economy will result in a further loss of $62 million and the net result for Mani toba will be a loss of 2,2 00 jobs. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the Mem bers of the Opp osit ion work so hard to get 600 job s for AI can, certainly we should be working three or four ti mes as hard to save 2,200. Mr. Speaker, exact ly what is the Crow rate and where did it come fro m? This is some thin g that's been dealt with in a certain superficial way and no one here has ever consider ed Man itoba's role in this. We've always had a role in freight rates in Man itoba. Mr . Speaker, the Cr ow rate was a transfer of public money and lands in return for lower grain rates to the east.

I won't belabour the point that the CPR got $25 mill ion in subsid ies and 25 mil lion acres of land to help them build the rai lway. The fact is, the Cr ow rate was an ag reement between the government and the CPR. In fact, Mr . Speaker, it wasn't even a favo urable ag ree- ment at the time it was signed. People all over the prairies complai ned that the governmen t got a bad deal. This is what Frank Ol iver, an Alberta MLA, had to say in the Ho use of Commo ns.

The company gi ves slight reductions in certain freight rates. gr eater than which would have been secured from less money in other ways, and gets a further and mor e comp lete assurance of monopoly throughout the great Cana dian west. Mr. Speaker, throughout Ma nitob a there was an uproar about this. It was too high; frei ght rates were still too high and there was a party at that time which took some action and that party was the Cons ervative Party of Man itoba.

In 19 00, the Conser vatives were elected to rule in this province and the first thing they did was pass a resolution in this Ho use ask ing for the com plete and more effectual control of rates, the right of acquisition of such lin es of railway by the province on equitable terms based on the cost of construc tion, and that the province shall have the fi rst option to purchase these railways. 17 12 Mr. Speaker, in 19 00 the Conservative Party was on record as favouring the nationalization of railways if frei ght rates were out of lin e. Where are they today?

Do they still favour this position from 19 00 or have they abandoned it? Mr . Speaker, these weren't just brave words. The Man itoba Government acted. In 19 01, they leased for 999 years the Northern Pacific Rail way lin es in Manit oba and turned that lease over to the Canadian Northern Rai lway. They assisted the Canadian Northern Rai lway in building another line from Winnip eg to the Lakehead and in return for this assistance, Mr . Speaker, Manit oba got a 30-percent reduction in the Crow rate from Winn ipeg to the Lakehead; a 30-percent reduction because the Crow rate was too high when it was signed. So, Mr.

Speaker, I would encourage the memb ers on the opposite side to continue in the progressive tradition of thei r fore bears and support us in this measure to keep the Crow rate where it is. Between 19 01 and 1918 , the farmers of Man itoba and everyone to the west of us enjoyed these favoura ble rates. In 1918 , rising costs and The War Measures Act brought an end to the Crow rate. But, by 19 22 world prices were falling, freight rates were rising and the government dropped the provisions of The War Measu res Act and the Crow rate was reinstituted. It was made statutory in the 19 20s and this is the rate, Mr.

Speaker, the rate of the 19 20s which we wish to keep, not the rate of 18 97 which was arti ficially high in terms of the purchasing power at that time, but the rate of the 19 20s which was the actual mar ket costs for this sort of transporta tion. Mr . Speaker, setting freight rates has always been a compl icated and diff icult procedure. The Member for Mor ris is an agricultu ral econom ist and I'm sure he can appreciate this point.

When you're building a rai lway you have to look at the cost of constructi on; it obviously costs more to build a railway in the Rock ies than it does on the prairie; it costs mor e to build it through the muskeg than it does on the prairie s, and originally the frei ght rates were high er in the Rock ies than they were on the prai ries. So, there are dif feren tial problems to consider. Mr. Speaker, another factor is competition that other carriers may offer. Trucks for instance, offer a gr eat deal of com petition these

Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 days and railways have had to lower their tariffs in order to compete with trucking. Mr. Speaker, the den sity of traffic is a factor. It obviously is cheaper to run a unit train on a main line than a few boxcars on a branch line. Finally, Mr. Speaker, the ability to pay has always been a major factor in setting freight rates; the ability to pay is the key issue in the Cr ow rate deb ate. Mr. Speaker, the farmers of Man itoba can't afford it. Mr. Speaker, the provi ncial economy can not afford it. That's obvious.

Her e we are struggling to maintain status quo and the Federal Govern ment is threaten ing to bring a decline of 2,2 00 jobs and a net loss in gross provincial product. We can't afford that, we have to keep the Cr ow rate to help preserve the farm economy of Man itoba and to keep the provincial economy of Man itoba healthy. Mr. Speaker, the ability-to-pay has another aspect which I would like to go into. The whole railway net work of Weste rn Canada has been geared towards one objective and that is the ex port of natural resource products from this country.

I f you look at the resource prod ucers in this country, and again I would draw the att�ntion of the Memb er for Morris to this, there are two sets of producers -there are the price givers and the price takers. Mr. Speaker, a price taker has no market power in the world. The grain growers are price takers; they may work through the Whe at Boar d but the Wh eat Boar d cannot influence the price that they get for their wheat more than a couple of percent. The y may even-out the fluctuations and benefit the farmer in that way, but there is no market power.

Ther efore, if the price of grain rates rises, that is a deduction from the farmer's income, not an increase in world price. In contr ast there is another set of resource prod uc ers and these are the price setters of the world; the potash producers, the coal prod ucers. the sulphur producers -sulphur is a by-product of oil and gas and we kn ow their price setting. Mr. Speaker, these people have the ability in the world market to set prices and, by setting prices, if there is an increase in freight rates they pass that along to the world market; they don' t deduc t it from their income. Ther efore, Mr.

Speaker, there is a principle of cross-subsid ization which is essential in this argument and that is that the price setters subsidize the price taker s in the rail freight structure of this country. This has got to be related to the cost of construction of the CPR through the Rock ies. Ther e is no reason why the price taker s, the grain growers, should subsid ize the construction of the CPR lines through the Rockie s. At the same time, when the resource producers of coal, especially, which is the CPR in many cases, are not investing in it. Mr.

Speaker, we have to keep the Cr ow in Man itoba in order to keep a healthy economy. I would invite some of the members opposite to stand up and say wher e they stand on the Cr ow issue. I've thought about it a great deal and I can see there probably are three problems here. Either, one, they are continuing in the footsteps of their rad ical prede cessors who wanted to national ize the railway and they are embarrassed that their position is too far to the left of ours. After all, it was only last week that the Memb er for Arthur got up and asked why we didn' t want to nationalize the railways.

Was that his posi- tion? I' d like to hear him stand up and talk about that. Or perhaps, Mr. Speaker, they support the Federal Govern ment, perhaps they support the elimination of the Cr ow. Are they in bed with Pierre Trudeau? I would like to kno w that and I'm sure that their constit uents would like to kno w that. Are the Conser vativ es and the Liberals in agreement on the Cr ow? That would be very interesting indeed to the farmers of Western Canada. Or the third alternative, Mr. Speaker, perhaps they support us, perhaps they support us. And here they're on the horns of a dilemma, Mr.

Speaker, because all through the election it was "me tooism." We intro duced a dental plan, they introd uced a dental plan; we have mortgage assistance, they have mortgage assistance; we support ke eping the Crow, they sup port keep ing the Cr ow. It makes them look foolish and uninno vative, Mr. Speaker. They can't come out and support us now, it would be another case of "me tooism." So, Mr. Speaker, what do they think; do they have any vie ws at all? I would encourage them to stand up and make theirvie ws kn own to their constituents.

The people of Man itoba have a right to kno w what, if any thing, they think. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. HYDE: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Morris that de bate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Govern ment Ho use Leader. 171 3 MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker , I'd like to move, seconded by the Honour able Min ister of Tourism and Economic Dev elopment that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour able Member for Flin Flon in the Chair for the Depart ment of Health ; and the Honour able Member for The Pas in the Chair for the Department of Economic Dev elopment and Tourism. CONCU RRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MR. CHAIRMAN, Harry Harapiak (The Pas): We' ll call the Committee to order. Economic Dev elopment and Tourism. We're on 2.(c )

(1) Salaries. The Member for St. No rbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, on this subject Small Business Enterprise, I've been informed that the Min ister of Highways and Transportation has written to small businesses throughout the province on his let-

Wednesday, 21 April, 19 82 terhead as Minister of Highways and Transportation inviting small businesses to participate in an In ven tory and Computer Seminar, I take it, in order to attempt to provide some management advic e to small business on how to control their inventor y which is obviously a !audible objective in these and perhaps any other times. I'm wonderi ng why the Department of Highways and Transpor tation under the letterhead of the Minister, is inviting small business to partici pate in tha t program and not this Mini ster's Department? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minister. MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chai rperson, the Enterprise Mani toba has one sector that is called the Transportation and Distribution Sector and that is being ad minis tered under the Department of Highways and Trans portation. So, I guess they conne ct the distribution with inventor ying and marke ting. I suppose techni cally you could say it is an overlap. MR. MERCIER: I don't think I got that ex planation, Mr. Chairman. Could the Minister ru n through that again? MRS. SMITH: Ther e is a

section under the Enterprise Man itoba Subsidia ry Agreement with the Federal Govern ment that has to do with distribution of goods that is related to Transpor tation and that

part is being ad ministered under the Department of Highways and Transportation. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chai rman, as I under this seminar, it's not with respect to distribution, it's with respect to control of inventorie s through the use of computers, not distribution of goods. MRS. SMITH: This physical distribution includes inventor y management. I guess since these activities are - how should I say - conn ected , the fact that it's being done under one department rather than another isn't a concern to me so much as the fact that a good program is taking place.

Inv entory management has some connection with your physical distribution plans. Ho w much you choose to order. How much you have on hand and the speed with which you distribute. I suppose you could stretch a point if you were defining it. Is it more management and therefore small business in our sector or is it more related to transpor tation? In this case the program has grown out of that department and I, for one, am qu ite happy to see that type of initiative. MR. MERCIER: As I said, Mr. Chai rman, I'm not dis puting the objectives of the program, I'm just wond er ing about the responsibility.

Is that a recent transfer of responsi bi I ity? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, that part of the Ent erprise Man itoba Program was transferred about a year ago. MR. MERCIER: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: (c)

(1) Salaries. The Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek. MR. JO HNSTON: Mr. Chai rman, the purpose of this department is for counseling of small business and in prev ious years there's been creation of jobs and jobs saved . Have the inquiries for the department increased with the present economic condition that prevails in Man itoba? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, the inquir ies are increasing but changing somewhat in focus as more people are looking at how to survive rather than how to expand and I think that's a reflection of the macro economic conditions tha t we find ourselves in.

We have, as a department, just developed an outreach program as well to try to make more read ily avai lable to small business people who may find themselv es trapped in the current economic hardshi ps, to enable them to get counseling before they're at a crisis state. We have yet to see how effective that can be but we feel it's a program that should be tried. MR. JOHNSTON: As I mentione d, the de partment used to report on the number of jobs they felt that they had saved dur ing a year and I imagine the y saved jobs. It 's people who are trying to survive.

The out reach that the Min ister is speaking of, when a com pany goes into bankru ptcy or receiver ship as we've heard of with Victoria Leather over the past weekend , there are a lot of people or busine sses that can go out with them or go down with them because of the fact that they don' t pay some of their suppliers, or they're not able to pay some of their suppliers. 171 4 As a matter of fact I was speak ing to a gentleman the other day who really had to qu ietly fold up his business and walk away from it because he had had three bankru ptcies which meant that he would not be paid his money.

Is there going to be an effort made when we learn of receiv erships such as Victoria, is there a way that you can learn who they may owe money to and in some way start to move towards assisting those businesses that may go down with a company such as Victoria? I'd like to say here that Victoria has not gone down yet and I believe the work that's being done by every body that's trying to keep it going is exce ptionally ad mirable and I since rely hope they make it. But if they don' t they could be a situation of qu ite a few people being taken along with them.

Is there a possible way that the depar tment co uld start immediately to follow up on some of those situations and maybe be able to give mana gement advic e ahead of time which hasn't been possible before. The Minis ter has said it's very hard to know who is going to be in trouble. Could this be a way of them finding out so that they might head some of it off? MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr.

Chai rperson, the program I was just outlining that we initiated just last week called Busine ss Alert is our effort to reach out ahead of time and try to catch businesses while they are beginning to encounter financial difficulty and see if by timely consultation, assistance with management and financing, we can perhaps save a few. The next stage, of course, is when a receiver ship is actually occurring and we have to walk the tightrope between respecting the confidentiality of that process and

Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 being of help if and how we can. We rely on our consultants in the field to be close to their particular industry sectors. Very often because they're well known in their ind ustrial sector, they are a trusted advisor and consultant during a receiver ship process. Our concern during a receivership, of course, is initially to see if there's any alternative structuring or refinancing that's possible so that the company can be rev ived. Second to that, our concern has to be for the creditors and the employees.

We've structured into our Busine ss Alert Program a component that will meet with the employees again wher ever possible prior to a crisis, but ce rtainly in the event of a crisis, to give them whatever insight into the problem we can and to assist them in co-operation with a representative from the Depar tment of Labour and Man power, some assistance in going about deal ing with Un employment In surance, social assistance if necessary and a job search so that they can find alterna te employment if at all possible. We still recog nize that these are still in the realm of remedia l-type activities.

We feel that given the current economic crisis, the deepening depression, that for the time bein g that's probably the best we can muster but we are casting about consulting, brainstorming, trying to find just what is within the realm of possibility of a Provi ncial Government to do something more con structive and certainly our longer-term economic pol icies are de signed to try and minimize this kind of vul nerability in the future. But those are the improve ments we can expect from that kind of policy are not going to appear immediately. I do have a bit of information that was req uested earlier.

Our enq uiry rate is up 10 percent over last year in this small business sector. MR. JOHNSTON: Is this the

section that we could ask the number of enqui ries, the number of actual applications and the number of approvals of the In terest Relief Program for small business? MRS. SMITH: I guess you're free to ask that que stion anytime you like. I'm certainly happy to answer it in this section. MR. JOHNSTON: We ll, I would ask the question. I had waited. I thought that probably Small Enterprise Dev elopment would be a logical place. I couldn't really pin it down anywher e else. If the Min ister has that information I would like to have it. MRS.

SMITH : Yes, as of April 16 th, we've had a total of 839 enq uiries: 99 applications have been received; 14 recommendations completed. Of these, 7 have been rejected and 78 are pending and 6 are undergo ing further business counselling. MR. JOHNSTON: Maybe I can just see if I have it-839 enqui ries, 99 applications, 14 approvals? MRS. SMITH: Recommen dations completed. MR. JOHNSTON: 14 recommendations completed , and of the 14 , what has happen ing? Seve n? MRS.

SMITH: I am told that 7 have been rejected and 6 are getting ongoing counselling but official appro val is delayed until we actually have the program legally in place and have official ratification of the board. It's a technical situation that we find ourselv es in with no projects approved . MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, I think I have it correct. The Minister said 14 recommended and of the 14 , 7 have been tu rned down and 6 are for further counselling. MRS. SMITH: I think we have to div vy up the 99 of the applications received and that's where we have 14 recommendations completed . MR.

JOHNSTON: Ok ay -14 out of 99; so we have 85 left, and of the 85, 7 have been rejected and 6 . . . MRS. SMITH: Yes, they're undergoing further coun selling and a decision has to wait; the program being legally in place. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the 14 that have been recommen ded are going through when the technicalities the Min ister is speak ing of are solved. Is that it? MRS. SMITH: The 14 includes the rejections of 7, and the other 7 we can assume there is no dec ision on as yet, but 6 of the ones we have are going through ongoing counselling. MR. JOHNSTON: So it's only 6 that have been approved? MRS.

SMITH: Wel l, tech nically we don' t have any approved because the legislation isn't official. So, I suppose you could infer but some are receiving further counseling so I suppose that means that there's still either uncertainty ot there are other things that are being looked at and a final decision hasn't been made. MR. JOHNSTON: So, out of the 99 of the actual applications, we really haven't got any approvals as yet because the 14 that were recommended, 7 have been tur ned down and 6 are havi ng further consultation. MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chai rperson, it's because there is the legal tech nicality, the board is not officially empowered until the legislation passes. I would remind the honourable member that one of the values of this particular program can be not just in the monies paid out to those who qual ify but in the consultation ser vice that can be offered the applicants by virtue of them going through this process. Many can probably be enabled to carry on with just some additional help either in deal ing with the current problem or perhaps by being referred to a service where they can get further information or management sk ill. 171 5 MR.

MERCIER: The Min ister referred to legislation. Wha t legislation is she talking about? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, we'rEl_just in the pro cess of completing the OC. The board will in fact be

I Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 notified. It has been name d and the first meeting will be held ne xt week. MR. MERCIER: Is the Min ister saying that the reason that's holding up the program at the present time is for the Cabi net to pass regulations? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, it's for the Cabi net to complete the OC for the board . MR. MERCIER: When does the Minister expect that will happen? MRS. SMITH: The next Cabi net meeting. MR . MERCIER: The pr oced ure then is that the departmental recommen dations will go to the board that has been appointed ? MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chai rperson, yes and then that board recommends to the Minister. MR. MERCIER: Does that board have the power to -(I nterjection)- MRS. SMITH: No, pardon me, ther e's a delegation of final authority to that board. MR. MERCIER: Does that board have the power to reject a recommenda tion of the ad ministration or bury a recommenda tion? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, they can open up any application and also they can hear appeals of anyone who feels that they need a second chance. MR. MERCIER: I take itthat sort of information will be in the Order-in-Council and the regulations that are to be passed? MRS.

SMITH: I have the regulations in front of me if you'd like to hear them. MR. MERCIER: Perhaps we could have a copy. The se are regulations not yet passed by Cabi net? MRS. SM ITH: Yes, I have the date here. It was passed as an OC on the 14 th of April so I'm one week out on it. That means the regulations are public and I will dis tribute copies or read them to you as you prefer. MR. MERCIER: Is the Minister now saying the regula tions were passed on the 14 th of April and the Boar d will not meet until next week? MRS. SMITH: Wel l, Mr.

Chai rperson, the function of this Board is to deal in batches with the applications as they've been dealt with by the staff and it seems only reasonable to allow a certain period of time to go by so that there's a considerable afternoon's work, if you like, to rev iew the staff recommendations. MR . MERCIER: Mr. Chai rman, I would like the Minis ter, without revea ling the names of the applicants and I certainly don't want any confidential information released , but T would like. to kn ow the reasons why the seven that have already been rejected, the reasons why those applications were rejected . MRS.

SMITH: Wel l, Mr. Chai rperson, there is an aste risk by the projects rejected saying that there are no formal approvals and rejections. Now the exp lanation given here is, before the program is legally in place, well that has occurred . The second qual ification is that there be Board ratification and until the Board meets, that final tech nicality has not been completed . MR. MERCIER: The Minister is saying that there's no formal rejection yet because the Board hasn't dealt with the application, but the ad ministration is recom mending rejection in seven cases? MRS. SMITH: Yes, Mr.

Chai rperson, but there is an appeal proced ure if the applicants wish to pursue it. MR. MERCIER: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, in order that we could get a perhaps more thorough und erstanding of the program and its effect on small business, could the Min ister ind icate why the ad ministration is recommending rejection in those seven instances? MRS. SM ITH: Wel l, Mr . Chai rperson, I' d be happy to take that under advisement and report on it at the next Session.

It 's ver y early in the program to have a mean ingful analysis of the pattern that's coming in, but if the members opposite would like that, really it would be more mean ingful to wait till the Board has had its first meeting and have me report through the normal proced ures in the Ho use. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I can 't accept that answer. This is consider ation of the Estimates. This item may be passed today or tomorrow. We have a situation in which the Minister has said that there have been seven decisions made by the ad ministration recommending rejection.

In order to get an unde r standing of this program and have an opportunity to discuss it, I would like to kno w the reasons why in those seven instances the ad ministration is recom mending rejection. 171 6 MRS. SMITH: Well , Mr. Chai rperson, the Estimates contain the basic program and this is a new program that's sort of gone through this Session. So with its official birth, if you like, bei ng somewhere between last Wed nesda y and the first meeting of the Board next Wednesday, it's premature really for me to give too much information about it.

As we've said in the Ho use we've de signed the criteria as carefully as we can from the information available about the nature and scale of financial distress that businesses were encou nteri ng, a number of businesses of the size we were look ing at and we've designed it as best we can with available data recognizing that the data is not complete that there are not in place, Mr. Chair person, the data collection directives for that to be available and that makes it a more complex task to de sign a program.

We've undertaken to review the criteria as the program moves along, and if we feel they're too stringent or ineffective, they don't match the need that we're discoveri ng, we'll rev iew them. So far, the anal ysis by the work group has been that some of the

Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 applicants do not fit the criteria as they were laid out. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I have to remind the Minister that at the end of next week her govern ment will have been in place for some five months, that they made important promises to not only homeowner s and farmers, but to businesses in Manit oba to prov ide an In terest Rate Relief Program to ensur e that small business stays in business.

Perhaps the Minister doesn't realize it, but the economic climate in this province at this particular time certainly is the most depr essing and discouraging that I' ve ever seen in my lifetime. If the Minister is going to wait much longer I don't kn ow who's going to be left to pick up the pieces. Now, she has a program and she said tha t of the 99 applications, the ad ministration is recommending 7 be rejected.

I would like to kno w in order to under stand this program and in order that small business in this provinc e can have some unde rstanding of this program, why the ad ministration is recommending that the 7 applications be rejected. I'm not trying to be difficult on the administration. Perhaps it is the quali fications that have been set out in the program. But it's extremely important, Mr. Chairman, that small busi ness have some understanding of what relief is av ail able to them because these are very, very difficult times. MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chai rperson, the criteria are spelled out clearly in the pamphlets. Anyone who has had any expe rience with these adm ittedly complex operations kno ws that sometimes applicants are not perfectly clear as to whether they qualify or not, but the y do have a right to apply. Ther e was no legislation pro vided by the previous govern ment to en act such a program; this req uired the planning, the analysis, to go into it. We couldn't legally launch it until the first Session was in place and we had to amend The Small Loans Act in order to have authority to make monies avai lable.

Now, th ese technicalities are frustrating but they are necessary hoops we have to go through in our system of govern ment. I sincere ly wish that the previous gove rnment, that see ms to be so very concerned about the economic downturn and the distress being enc ountered by increasing numbers of small businesses had, ir.d eed , put their thinking caps on a great deal earl ier and had done some of the ground work for us. Perhaps then we would n't have found ourselves with such a back log of data collection and program design to carry out.

We can continue to disagree as to whether we are going to get the prize for the win ner of the race or only get the second place in terms of speed. We were con cerned to get the thing in as quickly as was reason able but we wanted as well thought-out a program as we could have. Tt:Je honour able members kn ow that the proced ures of govern ment are not qu ick and easy and we've worked on this as effectively as we've been able to. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I could very easily get into a long argument with the Min ister on her com ments about the previous ad ministration, but I'm interested in this program.

She said ther e are 14 recommend ations on the 99 applications that have been made, and the board is meeting next week. Can she ind icate how many recommend ations will be before the board when they meet next week? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chair person, I'm not a seer. The group we have put together is working full-out and they expect to have about 20 that will be complete and ready for that board.

But I commit myself to keeping the honourable members up-to-date with the pro gress of the program and I'd be more than happy to report as the program proceeds giving an update on what's being found and what monies are being paid out. MR. MERCIER: Will the board be meeting on a regu lar basis after their first meeting next week? MRS. SMITH : Mr. Chai rperson, we've set it up expecting week ly meetings. MR. MERCIER: Can the Minister ind icate how long it will take to process the balance of the applications that have been made? 1717 MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, I can't give specifics on that.

We've assigned seven staff to work on the program, subject to rev iew, to see whether that's overstaffed or under staffed. They'r e deal ing with the new program and I kn ow are working conscien tiously. When new programs come in, the usual patt ern is for the thing to move fairly slowly at first as people get used to the criteria and get used to pro cessing the applications. Programs usually have their heavi est take -out in their middle life, as it were, and tend to taper off towards the end of their life. I think that's a usual pattern for programs. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, in vie w of the fact that there are some 839 enqui ries as the Minister indi cated , only 99 applications have been made, 7 appar ently have recommendations to be rejected , appar ently none have been approved ; in the light of those facts is the Min ister now consideri ng changing the requirements or the qualifications for assistance under the program so that somebody, hopefully, will get some assistance? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, I really think it's pre mature to change.

The thing is being watched closely by us but until we get a conside rable sample in to deal with, I think it's qu ite premature to make significant chan ges.

I want to emphasize to the honourable member that one of the important activities that is going on as these applications are being processed is that each staff person is acting by way of consultant to an applicant, so that as they go through their applica tion it's not being treated simply as a req uest for quick money, it's being treated as an opportunity for the businessperson to have the benefit of a skil led consul tant in looking at their situation and it may be that the most significant part of the program is not going to show up in the stats of money paid out; in fact, ther e may be the kind of adv ice given to small business people that enable s them to cope qu ite nicely with a few modifications in their management approach, in their financial record-keeping, in their financing, in

• - - Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 their marke ting plan or whatever. I think that may turn out to be the chief virtue of the program. As I say, I think it's qu ite premature to try to ev aluate the criteria or program or recommend alterations in it at this point in time. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister seems to think it's premature even though no money has yet been paid out. How long does she intend to monitor the program before considering a change in the qual ifications? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, at the first meeting on Wed nesday, next week, we'll have an initial impor tant bit of feedback.

It's going to take us about six weeks to catch up with our current back log and we'll be then in a better position to kn ow the rate of applica tions coming in and to make adjustments accordingly. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I' ve been listen ing to the Min ister and I have serious doubts whether she wants to provide any assistance at all into this pro gram, financial assistance. MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, you're entitled to your opinion. I happen to disagree with you. I don' t kn ow why we would have gone through all the com motion of putting together a program and assigning funds to it.

We are not speak ing with forked tongue. We wish to assist but we don' t want to promise or ove rextend ourselves beyond what our capacity is. That's why we took a while to de sign the program carefully and to target it to the people we felt we could assist, and to target the scale of the assistance within our means. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. JOHNSTON: Did I under stand the Minister to say that the final decision will be the board's and the final approval is not the Minister's signature, it's the board's signature? MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Chai rperson, I, as Minister, have delegated that responsibility to the board MR. JOHNSTON: And the board will make the deci sion as to whether they receive any assistance or not is the same board that will hear the appeals? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, they will hear the appeal if the staff have rejected them. MR. JOHNSTON: And there's no appeal if the board rejects them? MRS.

SMITH: The y can resubmit an application if they wish and I suppose there's always the open-door policy in our office if someone feels they've bee n unfairly treated, but I expect the criteria have been carefully spelled out and that the consultants will be tak ing time to ensure that people, if they are turned down, und erstand on what basis it is. You kno w, we could sit back and say because a program like this is difficult, tha t we shouldn' t do it at all. Now, we've chosen the other path; we've designed it the best way we can and we're going to learn as we go along if we encounter snags.

We've built into it every thing we can to make it fair, as fair and efficient and accountable as possible, and if we find there are flaws we will move to remove them. MR. JOHNSTON: If my memory serves me correctly, the approval of funds in the Legislature was $9 million for the three programs this year. I'm not sure I'm being accurate; I could look it up in my files. How much of the $9 million has been appropriated to this program? MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, this program is somewhat more costly than the other two so it's in the neigh borhood of $6 million.

The overa ll program is in the $23 million to $28 million range and it's expected to ex tend over two years. The reason for the small business component havi ng a slightly higher cost is because the administration of it requires that more factors have to be taken into account than with a homeowner or a farmer. That's one reason for the slightly uneven, if you like, allocation. MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, the Minister says $23 million over two years and if you break down the $23 million you're looking at $1 1. 5 million in this fiscal year and you're saying that $6 million of that $1 1 million is going to this program.

MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, the program is a little late in the year starting. I guess it depends whether you're looking April to March, or Janu ary to December. It is a special program; we've made a commitment to it and if it req uires more funds we'll do it by a Special Warr ant. MR. JOHNSTON: The enq uiries, I'm sure, started to come in as soon as the program was annou nced , I believe the first part of Janu ary or before the Ho use opened I believe, and the applications, I think , were placed on our desks approximately two weeks ago.

You'r e saying the 99 applications have come in during the past two weeks. 17 18 MRS. SMITH: Mr. Chai rperson, regarding the figures for the number of applications, some people jumped ahead of there being actual application forms to fill out and wrote in a story of their situation, if you like, not kno wing what the criteria were, and that's why ther e's a certain amount of difference in the numbers between the ones that actually qual ify and when the actual criteria of the program were de fined.

But as I said, every one of the people who applied or made a special req uest to the department will receive a con sulting visit from one of our consultants, and as I say, that may be the iceberg part of the program that is really going to enable a lot of firms to take preven ta tive action, which is really the most desirable result. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour is 4:30. We are interrupt ing proceed ings for Private Members' Hour . Comm ittee rise. SUPPLY - HEAL TH MR. CHAIRMAN, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): Call the

Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 Comm ittee to order. Con tinuing with the Health Esti mates, Page 74, I believe there was an accord that we would not continue with (

h) Dental Services until another time, instead , continue with Item No. 4. Men tal Health Services, Resolution No. 77, particularly 4. (a)

(1) Salaries. The Honou rable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman. speak ing to Resolu tion No. 77, 4.(

a) generally. Appropriations (

a) and (b), Ad ministration and Forensic Services appear to be a new

section in the print presentation. Last year there was just Forensic Servic es cited in the print layout in the Estimates book. I kno w that under the restructuring of the Depar t ment of Health it has been organized in three div isions, Admin istrative Services, Com munity Health Services and Mental Health Services with an Assistant Deputy Min ister in charge of each division.

So I rec ognize that is the reason for the new layout in the print presenta tion, however, if you check with last year's Resolution, the 19 81 -82 Estimates showed the appro priation for Forensic Services at $576, 000 -some of that may have been underspent but the total was $576, 000.00. Now the new 19 82-83 layout show the new sections, 4.(

a) and 4.(

b) combined totalling $1,1 30, 000 for March 31 st, 19 82 -$444, 300 in Fore nsic; $691,8 00 in Ad ministration -and the projected appropriation for the coming year, in the req uest for the fiscal year ending March 31 , 19 83, for those two sections is approximately $1 .25 million -$479,500 for Forensic and $735, 10 0 for Ad ministration. So I'd ask the Minister if he can just check with his officials - I see the Deputy Min ister is here -and just satisfy the Comm ittee, Mr. Chairman, that this doesn't represent a major ad ministrative or bureaucratic ex pansion of any kin d.

I would assume that most of the items listed under Adm inistration were accounted for under different headings and under different list ings in last year's Estimates but you can't compare the print presenta tion from last year to the print presenta tion for this year, so I have no proof of that. Wha t we're looking at here. at the beginning of our ex amination of Mental Health Servic es, is a req uest for $1,2 50,0 00 -approximately $1 .25 million. The comparison for last year was simply the req uest for $576,000.00.

Could the Min ister just exp lain what has taken place with respect to restructuring and with respect to apportione d appropriations for ad ministrative duties that has resulted in this new presenta tion? I presume, as I say, that a number of appropriations and bud ge tary items have simply been transferred out of other parts of the department and now incorporated into the Mental Health Services Division including its ad ministration component, but could he ex plain that please? MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, it's a little dif ficult to give these answers. Apparently, the format has been changed.

I think that the best bet and if this is not satisfactory, I'm sure the member will ask more questions. I would like to give you the comparison for what we have now and try to exl ain what is being done at this time. but I can't really point out and say well this is where it was last year. The first one, the Admin istration, that provides for the operation of the Office of the Ch ief Provi ncial Psychiatrist. Now from the same comparison, I don't say on the same item, but the same comparison last year was seven staff man years and it's the same now. Ther e's no change at all.

The seven of those consist of the Ch ief Provi ncial Psychiatrist and I've already explained that we haven't filled that position. that we're lookin g with keen interest; ad ministrative assistant and two secretaries. Also paid from this appropriation, there's one staff member, formerly with the Winnip eg Psy chiatric Institute, but now seconded to the Health Scienc e Centre, and two staff located at Eden Mental Health Centr e. I think that was mentioned yesterday by my honourable friend. The latter three previously ap peared in the appropriation for forensic services.

So that might give my friend some information. Now that is the first with the Salaries. Other Expenditur es, either I give this now or wait - well it might help, we can go back , we're not passing it - Other Exp enditur es then, we'r e asking for $69,000.00. The comparison for the same thing last year was $55, 10 0. 00. Now the general operation cost of the office, that was $25,4 00; the grants to the Man itoba Mental He alth Foundation, but this grant is not for administration cost.

It's for funding certain projects selected by the foundation and that is $15 ,000; and then the Eden Mental Health Centr e, expe nse may occur for the two staff members who are civil servants, it's to help their ex pense, that's $3, 800; and the Mental Health Review Board and I' m sure that my honourable friend will remember. Now we have the same concern as my honourable friend. We'r e looking at the situation. Wel l, I' ll come back to that. I kn ow we're trying to sort something out and we're looking at the rev iew to see if we could phase it in somewhere.

Now that would be for two under Admin istration, and then there's professional training. I' ll just say at this time, the provi ncial trainin g last year the amount was $339, 900 or close to $340, 000 and now it's $41 9, 10 0, and later on we'll get back, I' m sure to that and I' ll give the information. Now on forensic, I think forensic was the other one that my honourable friend used? Forensic then was a total of - exc use me, before I leave this - Admin is tration was then a total of $691,8 00, what I've covered alr eady, the same staff man years. Now it's $735, 10 0.0 0.

No w und er forensic, it was nine staff man years, the comparison last year, now we're ask ing for one more so there would be an increase of one. The salary was $358, 400, now $385,000.00. So I wou Id imagine that's the normal increment and also that added staff man year. 171 9 The Other Expenditur es were $85, 900 and that now is $94, 500 and the Other Expenditu res are the non salary cost of operating forensic services. The differ ence of $8, 600 represents a price increase of 10 per cent.

So I did n't do the calculation of the two together, but this one, this last forensic service was $444,300 going to $479, 500 and we could elaborate a little more. The Admin istration was $691 ,800 going to $735, 10 0; last year seven staff man years; forens ic, 9 and 1 O for $1 6, 000 against $1 7, 000, an increase of one

• • - I Wednesday, 21 April, 1982 if we take the two of them together and that's in forensic. MR. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I appre ciate that explanation from the Minister. It answers the que stions that were in my mind I believe. Tho se questions arose out of the different design of the layout of the presentation of the Estimates which really result from the reorganization of the depart ment and the restructuring of it, but it just wasn't apparent on the comparison of print to print whether there were expa nsions at the ad ministration level that were not accounted for.

The Minister's ex planation satisfies me on that point. A number of servic es that appeared elsewhere in prev ious years' Estimates have simply been reallo cated to this

section of this year's Estimates. So we're looking at a total of approximately a $1 00,000 increase to appropriation for the composite services here that we're talking about. This year's req uest as against last year's is approximately $1 00, 000 greater. I see that, Mr. Chairman, and appr eciate clearing that point up for the record. Mr. Chairman, under 4. (a), I' d like to ex plore for a moment with the Minister the office and position of Ch ief Provi ncial Psychiatrist. Who is operating and functioning as Chie f Provi ncial Psychiatrist at the present time? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, at the present, Dr.

Tavener had that position of course and the position has been vaca nt since Ju ne, 19 81, but there had been an agreement with the former Minister that we con tinue for a while, but he was on sessional, or so much a day, or whateve r. Now, Dr . Varsamis is acting on a part-time basis to take over this responsibility and this is wha t I mentioned earlier tha t we want to recruit, we're look ing at the whole situation with, as I menti oned yesterday, with Dr. Prosen and other groups.

We have some people that, for some reason or other, seem to lack interest a while ago and now I und er stand they might be more interested and then of course we're looking to see if there's anybody else that might apply and once we've received this study by Dr . Prosen, I think we'll be in a better position because Dr. Prosen would also - and his team I shouid say, he's not alone - I call it the Prosen because I don' t know all the members. I kn ow that Dr. Kova cs is one of them and I think that Dr. Varsa mis is also.

I think they would want to look at the situation to see if we could work something out with univ ersity also and then also with the Health Science Centr e who has that centre there and they're not too happy. The same thing that my honour able friend mentioned about the Childr en's Hospital, I've had the same kind of complaint over there so we're trying to look at the situation. It might be that we'll work something together that one good man that could work for the provi nce also anq maybe with the university. So, we're waiting for these recommendations, but in the mean time we're very happy that Dr.

Varsamis was able to take it on part-time to help us out. MR. SHERMAN: Is the Minister's office and the Comm ittee receivi ng applications, or submissions, or recommendations for a permanent appointee as Ch ief Prov incial Psychiatrist? MR. DESJARDINS: We had a search committee; in fact, the former Minister I believe had a search com mittee. I think that they've adver tised in different reviews and it wasn't too encou raging the response that they had. The search committee recommend ed one person who did not see fit to accept it and there's others that have applied.

We felt that we should re advertise, and as I say, during that time there was a change of government and this discussion that I related to that we've had with Dr. Prosen and that's the stage we're at now. We' re going to re

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-38
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Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 38.pdf
Language	en
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