Manitoba Hansard — 12 March 1964 (Sitting 40, 27th Legislature, 2nd Session)

27-2-40

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ELECTORAL DIVISION ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA BIRTLE-RUSSELL BRANDON BROKENHEAD BURROWS CARILLON CHURCHILL CYPRESS DAUPHIN DUFFERIN ELMWOOD EMERSON ETHELBERT-PLAINS. FISHER FLIN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE HAMIOTA INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKE SIDE LA VERENDRYE LOGAN MINNEDOSA MORRIS OS BORNE PEMBINA PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE RADISSON RHINE LAND RIVER HEIGH'l'S ROBLIN ROCK LAKE ROCKWOOD- IBERVILLE RUPERTSLAND ST. BONIFACE ST. GEORGE ST. JAMES ST. JOHN'S ST. MA TTHEWS ST.

VITAL STE, ROSE SELKIRK SEVEN OAKS SOURIS-LANSDOWNE SPRING FIELD SWAN RIVER THE PAS TURTLE MOUNTAIN VIRDEN WELLINGTON WINNIPEG CENTRE WOLSELEY NAME J. D. Watt Steve Patrick Hon,Robert G. Smellie, Q. C. R. 0, Lissaman E. R. Schreyer Mark G. Smerchanski Leonard A. Barkman Gordon W. Beard Hon. Thelma Forbes Hon. Stewart E. McLean,Q. C. William Homer Hamilton S. Peters John P. Tanchak M. N. Hryhorczuk, Q. C. Emil Moeller Hon. Charles H. Witney Hon. Sterling R. Lyon, Q. C. Hon. Gurney Evans Hon. George Johnson Nelson Shoemaker B. P. Strickland Morris A. Gray James T. Mills Oscar F. Bjornson D. L.

Campbell Albert Vielfaure Lemuel Harris Hon. Waiter Weir Harry P. Shewman Hon. Obie Baizley Mrs. Carolyne Morrison Gordon E. Johnston Russell Paulley J. M. Froese Hon. Maitland B. Steinkopf,Q. C. Keith Alexander Hon. Abram W. Harrison Hon. George Hutton J. E. Jeannotte Laurent Desjardins Elman Guttormson D. M. Stanes Saul Cherniac k, Q. C. W. G. Martin Fred Groves Gildas Molgat T. P. Hillhous e, Q.C. Arthur E. Wright M. E. McKellar Fred T. Klym James H. Bilton Hon. J. B. Carroll P. J. McDonald Donald Morris McGregor Richard Seaborn James Cowan, Q. C. Hon.

Duff Roblin ADDRESS Reston, Manitoba 189 Harris Blvd. , Winnipeg 12 Legislative Bldg,, Winnipeg 1 832 Eleventh St., Brandon, Man, 2 - 1177 Henderson Hwy,, Winnipeg 16 102 Handsart Blvd., Winnipeg 29 .steinbach, Man. Thompson, Man. Rathwell, Man, Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Sperling, Man. 225 Kimberly St. , Winnipeg 15 Ridgeville, Man. Ethelbert, Man. Teulon, Man. Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg,, Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg, , Winnipeg 1 Neepawa, Man.

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John's Ave., Winnipeg 4 924 Palmerston Ave., Winnipeg 10 3 Kingston Row, St. Vital, Winnipeg 8 · Room 250, Legislative Bldg. , Winnipeg 1 Dominion Bank Bldg., Selkirk, Man. 168 Burrin Ave. , Winnipeg 17 Nesbitt, Man. Beausejour, ·Man. Swan River, Man. Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Killarney, Man. Kenton, Man. 594 Arlington St., Winnipeg 10 412 Paris Bldg. , Winnipeg 2 Legislat.ive Bldg., Winnipeg 1 I I �

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSE JVffiLY OF JII IANITOBA 8:00 o'clock, Thursday, March 12, 1964 NIR . CHAIRJVIAN: Department VII , Item 8 , Detention Homes. :MR . BAIZLEY: I would like to ask leave of the House to make a statement. • •••. can't do it; I'm sorry. NIR . CHAIR:iVU\N: Item 8 passed. Item 9 ..•. NIR . VIELFAURE: I think my question would have suited better in 5 (b), but I see here Sale of Produce to Institutions. Is tl1at part of the sales from the farm operation of the Attorney General's department, if this is the right wording? Is the farm not o>med by the government at Selkirk? On 8 (f). :MR . M cLEAN: Mr.

Chairman, did the honourable member say (f)? , :MR . VIELFAURE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, 8 (

f) Under Farm, ManitobaHome for Boys. :MR . M cLEAN: Mr. Chairman yes. There is a farm operated in eonjunction with the Manitoba Home for Boys and that refers to the sale of produce to tlie staff, for the most part. :MR . VIELFAURE: ••... operation of the farm listed separately here? What I mean is can we see whether there is a profit or a loss on the farm operation? Because on 5 (b} (4} and (5) and (6} in my estimation it shows a loss of $21,190.00. I missed that earlier but I saw it came again here as Sale of Produce to Institutions on 8 {f). According to the figures on (4), (5} and

(6) I would say it shows a deficit there of -- a loss of $21, 190.00 if I reckon right. NIR . PAULLEY: •..• because I pointed this out to my honourable friend in answer to a private question, Mr. Chairman. I think what my honourable friend is getting at, if we go to item (

d) Farm for Manitoba Home for Boys and look at the item Salaries of $26,000, Supplies etc. $6,000, a total of $32,400, less sale of produce to institutions of $�:, 500 leaving a sub total of $28 , 940, my friend's question I believe is, does this indicate that there is a loss in the operation of the farm of $29,000.00? :MR . McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, you would have to examine the PU:li>lic Accounts.

This relates only to the portion that may be properly deducted in relation to t'lle expense of operating it, but in the Provincial Treasurer's revenue items somewhere he will have In come from the Sale of Produce. , N ow I m sorry I can't give the figures on it there, but this relates only to the recoveries from employees from this farm. MR . PAULL E'{: Mr.

Chairman, the Attorney-General apparently hasn't got the revenue but we have it before us here and the details of the estimated revenue of -- under the Attorney General's department of institutional farms, estimated revenue for the year ending March 31, 1965, of $23,500.00. Now in the item Farm, Manitoba Home for Boys there, there's an expen diture -- after deductions of the revenue from the sale to institutions there's still $28,940 indicating that there must be a loss, and this is the question my friend is asking in respect of operating of farms. MR . McLEAN: Do you want an answer ••••• NIR .

PAULLEY: What is the answer? There is then a loss in the operation of the farm. NIR . McLEAN: I can't answer that, Mr . Chairman. I'm sorry, I haven't got the figures in front of me -- the revenue figures in front of me -- and I think that would really be a question to direct to the Honourable the Provmcial Treasurer. NIR . HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, may I ask the Honourable the Minister a question? They produce certain commodities there, farm commodities, such as vegetables, beef, pork, and so forth. They use these commodities in their own kitchens don't they, for all the inmates and everybody else in there?

Now has the Honourable Minister any idea of how -- what the value is of the produce they consume in the institution is? I'm trying to be helpful but I don't think I am . :MR . HUTTON: Maybe the Minister of Agriculture could be a little bit of help here. I can't speak for this particular institution, but the Assistant Deputy Minister in agriculture carried out an analysis as to the operations of the institutional farms, and found that they were producing their product at a profit. NIR . PAULLEY:, •..• Mr.

Chairman, if I may, the estimated expenditure and the estimated revenue that is before us at the present time, in all due deference to yo1i.lr Deputy, doesn't indicate or substantiate what you have just informed the committee. It's just the opposite, because it shows an expenditure on this one item alone, and there are two farms. There is a farm for the eastern judicial district that shows an expenditure of $21, 190; there's this :!'arm for the March 12th, 1964. Page 1029

(Mr. Pa ulley, cont'd). . . Manitoba Home for Boys that shows an el\.'1Jenditure of $28,9 40, after some recouping of revenues from the sale of produce, and in the estimated revenue of the Prov incial Treasurer for the Attorney-General's department for this item, shows revenue from institutional farms of $23, 500 so the figures just don't .•. • lVIR. HRYHORCZUK: I've been trying to help him but he wouldn't listen. MR . ROBLIN: I have a shrewd suspicion that the item shown on the revenue side is not costed at retail market prices that we would normally use.

The prices shown there are just notional prices and really don't reflecfthe value of the produce made available at these farms. The gentleman sitting next to you, I think, will be able ti:J verify that this is roughly the situation. MR . HRYHORCZ:UK: Mr. Chairman, I've been trying to help the Minister before. I think there are several things that are not --haven't been spoken about. There is such a thing as a farm manager who looks after all of these farms with the different institutions in the various departments ..

I believe this gentleman works for the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture and that answer could very easily come from him . Aside from what the First Minister stated, there is also what I mentioned here just a moment ago. That institution uses a lot of those commod ities for their own sustenance in their ovm kitchens and their own dining rooms which is not accounted for here at all. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable the Member for Rhineland. MR . J .M. FROESE (Rhineland): Mr. Chairman, I would like to know from the Minister under the next item (g), Maintenance of Girls and Boys in Refuge Homes.

How many are there placed in these homes and how many do we support under this item? The total amount shown here is $223, 000, and by the way, what kind of homes --are they screened, or what are the requirements before these girls and boys are placed in those homes? MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, this item covers monies paid to the Home of the Good Shepherd, which I understand is sometimes known or called Marymound School, in which there were 40 girls as of August 1963, the latest date for which we had figures.

It also provides for eight girls maintained -- again my figures being August 1963 --at Rosl)"fi House; Sir Hugh John McDon�d Memorial Hostel August 1963, 11 boys; Dawson House August 1963, 16 boys. Now these are people who are adjudged by the juvenile courts to be delinquents; and are directed to these homes for care. MR . JOHNSTON: •••.. and I just wanted to ask the Minister where do we discuss or where do we see the Liquor Control Board, where do we •••• l\IIR. McLEAN: There is no item in these estimates for the Liquor Control Commission. MR . JOHNSTON: Are you not responsible for that, sir? MR .

McLEAN: Yes, I am assuming that that was discussed. There was some discussion under item 1, Administration, Minister's salary. lVIR. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Mr.

Chairman, I think we are still on the correct ions part of it and I presume that these institutions are also intended correction, and some of the boys who find themselves in this institution probably are there because they need correction, and in this department I notice --I mean for correctional purposes --I notice that the amount that was voted in is small as compared to other departments, but the fact still remains that the amount has just about doubled or more than doubled in the last six years, and also the personnel has more than doubled.

I'm not quarrelling with that because we on this side did suggest that we need more officers, more parole officers and so on, on that, but the question now is posed, are we getting money or getting value for the money that is being spent iri these corrective institutions? We seem to think that during the period the situation in regards to crime and corrections doesn't seem to improve too much. The answer to this and especially in the crime •••• is that we are not getting the value for the money that we spent --is being spent in it, and I have an

article here and I'm sure that most of the members did read it. The

article is from the 1963 report of the Committee on Services for Juvenile and Adult Offenders, which states this: "It is a disquieting feature in Manitoba that despite the rising standards of mate rial prosperity there has been no reduction in the rate of crime. In Manitoba in 1961 the munber of convictions for individual offences and other major inf ractions was almost 104 percent greater than in 1952. The population increase for this same period was less than 20 percent. This growth of crime has two especially clisturbi.ng features.

One is that crimes of violence and crimes against the persons have L�creased much more than other crimes, 153 percent compared to 91." Now here's the Page 1030 March 12th, 1964 .

(Mr. Tanchak, cont'd) ••. part that I'm really interested: "The number o:f offenders of ages 16 to 24 increased by over 80 percent, while those of ages 25 and over increased by only 23 per cent." Now not so long ago the First Minister implied I will say, at least that's the way I under stood him, that the number of persons confined in our jails and institutions is a direct reflection of the general atmosphere of our community. Now if this is so, I don't think that the atmosphere has improved too much since then.

In my opinion, and I'm not blaming the present government - my intention is not to be critical now whatsoever --in my opinion it's the society and no t the elements that are responsible for this condition in our community. Now I !mow exactly what I want to say but I haven't got the san1e gift of gab of some of the more learned members here, but I'll try to place exactly my feelings before the House.

Through necessity or maybe aspiration we set some certain standards, standards that we like to live up to, and I would like to call them values, certain values that we like, values that all of us try to achieve and also try to live up to these values. Now these values forever keep changing.

We've got great advances, technologically and also advances in our social life , and all of us adults as well as the younger boys --we induced them to do that --strive to keep up with these times and those values that we 're always trying to attain seem to be just running ahead of us, and we get frustrated as adults because we can't achieve what we would actually like to achieve.

Likewise there are some parents and even some schools --and I'm not critical of this --they've tried to achieve these values; they've tried to live up to the standards that are required, or maybe imaginary requirements, I'm not too sure, and I'm not quarrelling with their objective, and believe that this may even be desirable in most cases. But some children in my opinion are not quite able to keep pace with these values and that's the basis of my argument. Take for instance a backward child or a slow child, or a child probably even with a very good I.

Q. but probably his motivation isn't just there; he might be a smart child but he hasn't got that motivation that we require from this child. So what happens? He might find it very difficult for him, this child, to keep up with expectations, to keep up trying to achieve his values. He gets left behind; he is considered backward; be is a slow child; we've pushed him back, and I do not say that this isn't necessary. I•m not critical anyway. We've pushed him back into a retarded class. Now let us for a moment in1agine just how this child feels. Feels alone, pro bably feels inferior.

He is lost; he might even feel that he is not being loved because he just doesn't seem to --because he can't keep up with all the rest. In many cases he hears about this from his parents. Sometimes his parents try to push him. They're not psychologists. They don't !mow that it may hurt them. They push him, and then the odd time the parent might say, "Oh you're dumb, you're behind," and that hurts the child; and you can imagine just what psycho logical effect this would have on this child.

He may become morose; he may become defiant; and I would say that this is the making --the beginning or the making of a delinquent. Now the Honourable Member from Ethelbert Plains had always I think a good idea, a good plan there, and a good suggestion, that we should try the prev ention rather than cure. And I would add on to this, he mentioned certain groups, certain schools and churches an d groups, and then there's maybe the Girl Guides, the Boy Scouts, and probably we could stop these children who feel that way, who feel depressed and so on.

Maybe we can put a social worker into this who could get in contact with all these and gather the· facts, and stop these people in this mann er and then try to help them, see the parents and so on, and I know the social workers de,. tllat. They're desirable. That's at the one end of it. Then, again, I mentioned before, are we getting value for the money spent, and I'm not begrudging the money spent in corrective measures.

Only, I'm trying to point out that maybe if we put more stress on this bottom part of it when the child is too young, and his habits are being formed, then we might have less, less in the correction institutions, and thereby save the money. But having made --our society --I blame our society - having made delinquents out of these, out of these young people, I think it is our duty to do the most, the best possible, and our greatest effort put into it to save at least a few of these, because it is worthwhile. ' Just to cite one example, and another --again I'm not critical.

I know of a teacher, a very good teacher, first class teacher. She is right here in the city of Winnipeg, and she has to teach --not that she has to, but she probably chose to teach a retarded grade in one of the schools, and she is an excellent teacher. She knows what she's doing. But when you converse with her, you'll detect that feeling, even with this teacher it seems to persist, that she is in March 12th, 1964 . Page 1031

(Mr.

Tanchak, cont'd) ••. some way inferior because -- and I don't like that attitude -- because she is teaching a reta1·ded grade, and I would suggest that sometimes this feeling may probably rub off on these little children, the feeling that she lu'l.S, although she is still a very good teacher, and I would suggest, and I know that there is some difference in grants, different grants given to lower gTades and higher grades depending on the qualification of the teacher, I would say that it is most important for us to put the best qualified teachers right there in the primary grades where they have to deal with these tender minds so as to overcome this tendency in some of them that may become delinquent in future years; and I'm not being critical; it's just a suggestion I put up to the House.

MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Honourable Minister would like to be able to say amen to the estimates for his department. I know I would if I was sitting over there. I often did. And I also know that he's a man that is kind of heart and fair of judgment, and the Honourable Member for Portage did want to ask a question or make some remark on the Government Liquor Control Commission, and I•d just like to point out, Mr.

Chairman, that there's no item in the estimates for that, and the Honourable Member for Portage being a new member, comparatively new member, would naturally not know that where there is no item that you have to raise the question under the Administration, and I'd ask the indulgence of the Honourable Minister to allow the Member from Portage to ask his question or make his remark. :iVffi . JOHNSTON: Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

Now this is more in the nature of a question, but like all politicians when the question of liquor and liquor consumption is brought up, one is inclined to shy away from it, but I had a question posed to me a few days ago by a citizen of WLrmipeg, and he wondered why a particular hotel in Winnipeg has the right to run a cabaret and keep open until one o'clock in the morning, and not provide, as stated in the Act, not provide dancing space.

He felt that this particular hotel -- it's the Airport Hotel, the cabaret room is the Constellation Room, and they have this cabaret licence that they don't have to pro vice a dance floor along with it, and they can stay open until one o'clock, and the person that raised the question with me was a competitor and he felt that this was quite unfair, and he wanted to know why. MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, my understanding is-- any my colleague, the former Attorney-General, has very kindly given me some, just very quickly, some background.

My understanding is that the Airport Hotel, in respect to the Constellation Room, is the only licence of this particular kind in Manitoba, and it was also one of the first, or the first one to be granted. Now that doesn't quite answer why there is no dance space provided , and I think I could only undertake to enquire into it, and be quite honest about it at the moment and say that I don't know. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I was just going to say if there is an inequity would the Attorney-General's department correct it or make the same privilege available to all who are competing in this field. MR .

M cLEAN: •••.• and I hope I am not misunderstood that I would have -- would say that I would ask the Liquor Control Commission to make the correctinn, since the administration of I the Liquor Act is entirely by statute under their jurisdiction. I MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Honourable Mini ster if there is any truth to the rumours that the Home of the Good Shepherd will soon be closed, MR . McLEAN: Well, not that I know of. I have not heard that. lVIR.

DESJARDINS: Well it is -- there's a rumour going around because of the fact that we've had this new principle of separation of church and state, as that expression is understood in Manitoba, that that Home might have to be closed. Is this one of the places where we waive this principle, or is this --will this be considered in the Shared Services Plan.? MR. D. L. CAMPJ;IELL (Lakeside): I wanted to ask the Honourable the Minister a question about the Portage la Prairie Home for Boys. It's possible that this question has been asked in my absence.

If it has the Minister could tell me, but I understood from some remarks that were made in the House by the Honourable Member for St. John's the other evening, that the --what we'll call the D. A. Thompson Report had recommended the closing of that institution. Is that correct? And I know I am not supposed to ask future government policy, but has policy been decided on this matter, and if so, what is it? MR. McLEAN: Mr. Chairman, yes, the report of the Welfare Collllcil, what's been Page 1032 March 12th, 1964.

(Mr. Campbell, cont'd) ••• referred to as the Thompson Report, did make thafrecommendation. I'm sure that the Honourable the Member for Lakeside will appreciate my views in that as a good Scotsman I would have to take a long look at the idea of closing a facility which is·to my way of thinking in fairly good physical condition and, I believe, serving a most useful purpose. This is not one of the things that we 're contemplating doing in the immediate future. MR.

CAMPBELL: I think I would like to say that I would agree that the Honourable the Minister should take a good long look at the proposal before anything like that would be done, because my understanding was that when this institution was established that the experts of that day--! looked at it very closely both from the point of view of facilities that were available in the community and also from the type of the facilities that were made available on the grounds, where three or four different cottages had been built and a sort of a family type of arrangement has been entered into, and I know that during the time that I have been in this House that this subject has been debated on more than one occasion both with regard to the Home for Boys and also with regard to the jail itself, because it's not too many years ago that the recommendation was that a jail itself should be established a way out in the what might be called the hinterland, and that was thought to be a proper arrangement in those days.

Then later on the other counsel pre vailed and it was centralized once again and brought into the area near the city of Winnipeg, and I believe that now there's some discussion goes on among the experts in penology, or whatever this science is called, about once again breaking this type of an institution down into units.

Well now, whatever is the present thinking I just remind the Honourable Minister that the recommend ation was carried out so far as the Portage la Prairie institution is concerned, I believe it's been kept up-to-date with improvements and renovations and even additions, and I would con� gratulate him on his resolve to take a good hard look at it. Sometimes I think we need the point of view of a sound, hard-headed Scotsman in some of these matters. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, before we leave the matter of detention homes and juven iles, I wonder if the Minister could tell us what is the situation now with regard to juveniles being sent to Headingley Jail.. This has been a problem, I know, in the past. I would appreciate if the Minister could tell us if he has the figures of the number of juveniles that were sent to Headingley last year. I have here a clipping from the Free Press of July '63, The heading is: "Second Sixteen-Year-Old Sent to Headingley. For the second ttme in a week Provincial Police Court Magistrate G. L.

Cousley has reluctantly sent a 16-year-old offender to Headingley Jail for six months." This is, I know, not a good practice, Mr. Chairman, because the segregation facilities at Headingley I believe are not such that it's possible to keep these youthful offenders segregated from the adult prisoners there. Last year when we discussed this, I think the then Minister indicated that certain steps would be taken to correct this, and I would like to know what has been done and what was the situation during the course of the past year in this matter. lVIR. McLEAN: Mr.

Chairman, the only figures I have are from the report of the Super intendent of the jail at Headingley for the eastern judicial district, and it shows--this is for the year 1963, expiring December 31 --persons under 18 years of age, 82. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, this seems to me to be a very large number of juveniles to be sent to what is basically an adult institution, and a maximum security institution and not one designed for this purpose, nor, I believe, one that is equipped to segregate these youngsters from the other criminals that are there, and 82 seems to me to be a very large number.

I wonder if the Minister could break that down in age groups for us, indicate how many there are in the age group 17-18, 16-17, 15-16 and down to 14 and 15, and for that matter, are there any �der age 14. that have been sent to Headingley? MR. McLEAN: I regret I am unable at the moment, Mr. Chairman, to give the breakdown requested. I would point out that of course the 82 are admissions, and there would be perhaps some of these people who would be there only for a very short time.

All that the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition says, of course, is entirely correct, and if we can get the federal auth orities to build the juvenile offenders institution that we require, I am sure this situation can be corrected. MR . HILLHOUSE: I wonder if the Minister when he's obtaining these figures for my leader, whether he would find out how many of these 82 were transferred from Juvenile Court and treated as adults. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 49 passed ••• March 12, 1964 Page 1033

MR. MOLGAT: The Minister will be prepared to give us the breakdown on this will he, at a later date? MR. McLEAN: Yes. MR . MOLGAT: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 9, MR . SAUL CHERNIACK (St.John's): Mr. Chairman, I want to take just a moment under Item 49 to use it--was it 59? --to use it as an opportunity to make the Honourable Minister a gift --oh, he jumped.

I guess it's a frightening thing to receive a gift from this side, but a long long time ago when we first started dealing with these estimates, I mentioned the problem of the battered child, and I think that the Minister expressed some surprise at the fact that special treatment was needed of the problem. I'm therefore happy to be able to send on to him a pamphlet of some 20-odd pages prepared by the Children's Division of the American Humane Association, published in 1963, and dealing with a review of legislation to protect the battered child.

I hope he will have an opportunity to review .this and hopefully come up with something that will help the better disposition of this problem. MR . CHAIRMAN: 49 passed. Item 9, Resolution 50. MR . FROESE: Mr. Chairman, under Item 9, we have the Administration of the Estates of the Mentally Incompetent. I would like to know from the Minister how many estates are being handled by this administration, and I also note on the estimate:i revenue we have some 50, 000 expected in revenue from this administration. How are the levies made against these estates, and how do you collect this 50 ,000?

Could we have some explanation of this? MR . HILLHOUSE: ..•. answer them both at the same time. The question I was going to ask, Mr. Chairman, is along the same lines as the Honourable Member for Rhineland. I notice that the estimated revenue this year from that department is $50,000 and your expenditure is going to be 103, 000-odd, In other words, the province is putting $2. 00 in to that department for every dollar they take out.

Now, in 1959, which is the last year. that we were in office, our revenue from that department was $10,000 and our expenditure was $71;000, so we were putting in $7.00 for every dollar that we took out. Now, I've noticed in my handling, or in my dealings with the administrator of the estates of the mentally incompetent, that there has been during the past number of years a very substantial increase in the fees being charged by that official.

At one time the fees that were charged were fairly nominal in amount, but it appears to me now that the administrator of the states for the mentally incompetent is charging the same fees for adminis tering these estates as trust companies are for admil1istering the estates of deceased persons. So I would like to get some idea from the Minister as to the range of fees in that department and how they were fixed. MR. SCHREYER: I have a question on the same point.

If the Minister is going to answer for the Member for Rhineland as to the number of estates involved I wonder if it would be pos sible at the same time to give an indication as to the rough value of what's involved here in total. -I would also like to ask the Minister if it is true,as some rumour has it, that the regulations under which the administrator has to work, that these regulations may be made a little more flexible in the future; and if this is true, I for one would welcome it, because from my few dealings with this particular branch of the department, I've come to the conclusion that the administrator seems to be hamstrung by the regulations with which he has to work--cases the administrator has had to turn down, has had to put thumbs down on certain applications from relatives of the mentally incompetent to do this or that with the property; which kind of an · arrangement would have helped substantially the' not the widow' but the wife and the children of such persons; and because it couldn't be done, this whole thing, the arran gements had to be made through the Welfare Department which of course cost the province a good deal of money.

So I would ask him in short if it is contemplated to ease the regulations somewhat under which the administrator has to operate. MR . M cLEAN: Mr. Chairman, there are 2, 046 estates under administration, with a total value of $2,854,689,38. During the first nine months of 1963, approximately 1,120 new est11tes were opened or commenced, and 1,178 estates were closed out.

I am unable to tell the Hon ourable the Member for Selkirk the basis upon which the charges are made, although I would assume that they are made on the basis of the tariff of charges. which may be properly taxed in the case of a committee or trustee, and I'm --but to be quite frank about it I'd say that I'm not Page 1034 March 12, 1964

(Mr. McLean, cont'd) ..• really familiar with the basis, although as the Honourabl e the Member for Selkirk has pointed out, it's approximately one-half of the total costs of operating this par ticular branch, and the $50,000 is the cost of administering estates of a total value of $2,854,689.

With regard to the possibility of more flexibility, my colleague the Honourable the Minister of Health has under way at the moment a revision and consolidation of the three statutes which deal with mental illness, the statutes under which the authority of this office is carried on, and we hope, of course to bring it up-to-date, and while no particular --I wouldn't want to say that there. will be more flexibility provided, I think we do have some thoughts regarding the admin istration of the estates of the mentally incompetent persons that we hope to consider quite ser iously and which would bring the practice into keeping with the present day conditions.

We must not forget that of course this office exists for the protection of the estates. of persons who are mentally incompetent, and I am certain there are many occasions when the administrator has to be quite unpopular by refusing to acquiesce in some action or other that some relative might approve of, because he must be guided by his judgment of what is in the best interests of the mentally incompetent person. My understanding is that that has always been the comerstone of· the policy, and I myself would not be in favour of any change. MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to quarrel with that cornerstone of policy, but it would seem to me that the administrator should be guided somewhat by considerations of the wife and children of these mentally incompetent people. Does the Minister want to stick with his figures, 2, 000 estates with a gross value of $2 million? It seems to work out to about $1,000 per estate, which doesn't seem possible. MR . McLEAN: I can only say, Mr. Chairman, that these are the figures that have been given to me and I can't be any more helpful. I would think that they might not be out of line as there are a lot of quite small estates.

We must remember that it is possible of course for a person who is mentally incompetent to have some other committee or trustee appointed by the court. It is not in all cases that the administrator of the estates is a trustee. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, the questions and answers on the particular item lead me to say a few words. I think the explanation lies, not so much in this particular branch of the department but in the attitude of the government as a whole. There was a time not so very long ago, Mr.

Chairman, when the government undertook to provide certain public services without the intention of seeing that these public services were paid by those who received those services. This is one of those instances and there were others, for instance our courts.

But within the last five years or so this government has increased the fees to such a degree that in some of these instances they're not providing public service as a public service any more; they're running some of these branches on a margin of profit, and I think that explains why today we have the type of questions that have been asked by the Honourable Member from Selkirk and the Hon ourable Member from Brokenhead.

Now we probably were lenient at one time towards some of these charges but I'm afraid that the pendulum has swung away over to the other side, and when you have charges made for estates,. and I understand that sometimes they run over $300 f0r adminis tration of an estate, I think it's just going a little bit too far. I feel, Mr.Chairman, that the govemm ent does owe the people of the province a certain service which is to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, espec ially when you come to people that are incompetent, disabled or for some other manner should receive some public assistance.

I think this is one area in which the government could review its policy and it wouldn't hurt one bit if they reverted to the policy that existed before they took over the reins of government. MR . FROESE: Mr. Chairman, on this very same matter I would like to have some further explanation from the Minister. When people are healed and they return, what is the situation with these estates? Are they readily returned, or what requirements have to be met in order that they can be taken away from this administration ?

It comes to mind that I know one particular case several years ago where an estate was brought under this administration. Later on the person came out again and he found in the meantime that his car was sold -- he had a very beautiful car; his utensils that he used in his trade were sold; and when he found out about this he got worse again and as a result finally he had to go back again. Now that's the reason. why I want to lmow how these estates come back .to these people once they are healed. MR . A. E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister if there's March 12, 1964 Page 1035

(Mr. \V right, cont' d). . . any difference in the handling of cases of people who voluntarily submit themselves for treatment. There are many more of these people. And who decides as to their competency, the psychiatrist at the institution or the Director of the Estates for the Mentally Incompetent? ·MR. McLEAN: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Director of Es tates of Mentally Incompetent never makes any decision with regard to the mental competency of a person. He only administ ers and is only responsible in those cases where a person by the proper medical experts has been found or judged to be mentally incompetent.

In other words, his authority begins when a person has been committed or found to be mentally incompetent and it ends when he is advised - and this answers the question of the Honourable the Member for Rhineland -- it ends when he is advised that a person is restored to mental competency and capable of handling his own affairs. There are cases such as is described by the member for Rhineland.

I remember having one myself where I was acting for a client and it seemed rather difficult to sort of reconcile the p::ttient to the action that had been taken with regard to his estate during the time of mental incompetency, ' and this is a difficult thing one 'NOuld have to acknowledge. For example, you speak of a car. Well, ought the administrator to sell it or not? If he held it for too long a period it might lose all its value.

On the other hand, if he sells it and the patient is quickly restored to he::tlth, the patient natur::tlly is sorry that when he has the return of his assets that instead of getting his car returned he gets the sum of money for which his car has been J>ld. I think we would have to acknowledge that it is a matter of judgment in a case of this kind. The problem is further compounded -- and this is related to this necessity for revising the statutes under which this whole matter operates -- is further compounded by the success which the medical people are now having with persons who have mental illnesses.

We have more short-term mental illness and it isn't really ---when this office and this idea was first set up, first decided, it was in the times when persons spent long periods of time, indeed I suppose when it was considered that one didn't recover from this kind of illness.

This si tuation, th..<tnks to modern medicine and to modern methods, has changed and I would be the first to acknowledge that the administration of estates of persons in this situation certainly needs to be looked at carefully in the light of modern-day conditions and the things which modern science and medicine can do for people who have this kind of illness. MR. PETERS: Mr. Chairman, people going out and committing themselves out to Selkirk -- what happens? Are their estates taken over? MR. McLEAN: Yes. MR. PETERS: My understanding is though that they can leave a.11y time. What happens then? MR.

McLEAN: Well, they may leave, and if the medical people said that they were men- tally competent then that ends the matter as far as the administrator is concerned. MR . CHAIRMAN: Item 9 passed. Item ••• MR. FROESE: Mr. Chairman, on the next item, 10, two years ago this item amounted to $103,000.00. Last year it was $10,000; this year it's $5,0 00 --a further cut. Just what is this money being spent on? I take it that this item covers provincial buildings, and therefore I'd also like to refer to the Liquor Control Commission financial report.

I note in that report that the fixed assets in land and buildings are $47,6 74.56 shown on the balance sheet. Then when I go to the statement of operations --or of general and administrative expenses, they show a write-off of land and buildings, furnishing and fixtures of $53,881.00. How can they write off more than they have in the first place? Then I have some other questions in connection with the profits as they are shown on the statement.

Do the profits come into the following year, because the year-end is on March 31st the same as the governn1ent year-end is, and therefore does the profit come into the following year or is it being takeJ;t out of the operations during the year? I also not that the sales were some $56,893,000, and out ofthis $8 million went to the federal government in taxes and excise duties, so that they got their fair share. According to this, if I figure · rightly, there must be a mark-up of around 66 percent. Would that be correct on the purchases that we make and have sold through the Commission? MR. McLEAN: Mr.

Chairman, I would think that that figure of 66 percent, while I haven't worked it out, it's probably approximately correct. The liquor profits, according to my understanding of the matter, are paid in the fiscal year to the Province of Manitoba -- to the Page 1036 March 12, 1964

(Mr. McLElan, Cont' d) .•• Provincial Treasurer into the funds of the Province of Manitoba. Now with regard to the item in the estimates themselves, the reduction I am sure reflects the nature, the Scottish character of the present Attorney-General. This covers a number of individual projects.

If the members of the committee would like, I would be glad to give them the details of the items" There's redecorating and tile entrance at the Land Titles Office in Portage la Prairie; a plan for the men's dormitory at The Pas jail; landscaping the grounds at the Jail for Women at The Pas; we're installing a sound system in the auditorium at the Manitoba Home for Girls; repairs to the incinerator at the Manitoba Home for Boys; installing two showers in men's bathroom at Government Detention Home; and -- I left this one till the last - we're going to get a new vaccuum cleaner in the Dauphin Land Titles Office.

MR . HRYHORCZUK: Mr. Chairman, I can hardly let the Honourable Minister get away with that statement that because there's a Scotsman sitting in that chair that that is why. I think we've all noticed that the government is prone to put off the costs of what it is doing in the capital division, There was a time when the government paid quite a proportion of the cost out of the current revenue, but this government has taken the attitude that it should go into capital costs. We're paying for those things with borrowed money and they don't appear in the estimates here.

I think that is the answer rather than the one that we have a Scotsman in the chair. MR . ROBLIN: For the information of my honourable friend, I may say there are over $13 million worth of capital costs in these current estimates. A very large sum. MR. HRYHORCZUK: Well, I just thought that there would be quite a bit. I didn't think there'd be $13 million with what we've already got, but if they're adding another 13 million it's just a drop in the bucket. MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 51-- passed. Department VIII-- Health. MR. WITNEY: Thank you very much. Mr.

Chairman, thumping on the desks before someone introduces his estimates is always very welcome indeed, because you know that the thumping that is to come is not going to be on the desk during the hours that we are going to take in discussing the estimates of the Department of Health. I might say that as the Minister of the Department of Health, the new one, I have found that I have some pretty big footsteps to follow in, with the former Minister 0f Health, that I think that I can say of the Ministers of Hc:alth that we have had for the past four or five years that I am in the better shape. I'd like also Mr.

Chairman, to thank the members of the committee for bringing my estimates to the fore on Thursday March the 12th rather than on Friday, March the 13th. Not that I am particularly superstitious, but on that day I like to be just a little cautious. I'd also like to thank, Mr. Chairman, the very many voluntary organizations that have worked with the Department of Health in the past year and h-ave contributed an immense amount of work and work that was of great value in the various problems that face the health field in the Province of Manitoba.

Without them the situation with respect to health in Manitoba would not be as good as it is at the present time. It's been the custom in the past for the estimates of the Department of Health to be preceded by a statement. Sometimes that statement was rather long, and I would not like to break the custom as a new Minister of Health, and so I too am going to make statements before the estimates and I trust that it will not be too long. I also hope that I have taken items which will be of interest to the committee, and of value to them, when they are considering the various items under this department.

In dealing first with the health education section, one or two items there which I feel will be of interest. We did have the production of a poison-control pamphlet in co-operation with the Poison Control Centre at the Winnipeg Children's Hospital during the past year and every effort was ma::le to have one of these placed in every home in Manitoba through distribution by the various health units, the City health department, the Manitoba Pharmaceutical Association, and the Manitoba Rural Safety Committee. During the last year, too, in the health education

section we also established the Elmer program, a child safety traffic program which is sponsored by the National Safety League. The program was. established in sb:: sc hools in the City of Winnipeg, all of the schocls in the City of St.James, two in West Kildonan, and in the schools at Neepawa and Selkirk, and the objective is to have the Elmer program spread into all the schools in the Metro area and all of those that are outside of the Metro area. In the health education

section there were a whole variety of various activities, and perhaps one of the major accomplishments was the initiation and the organization anq the liaison with respect to the production of a 27-week March 12, 1964 Page 1037

(Mr. Witney, cont'd)... maternal and child health television series on the western CTV net work. There have been many favourable comments received as a result of the activity. The .nutritionists in Brandon and Winnipeg, with some 28 in attendance in Brandon and 48 in Winnipe g, organized a two-weeks cooks' school for cooks, and it was organized togive cooks a better knowledge of what they ought to do with food. We also participated in the health education summer school workshop for teachers through the presentation of lectures in nutrition relating to school health.

And when you proceed through the estimates you will notice in the health education a new item which says "Grant to the Alcohol Education Program," and I think at this time I should make a statement with respect to the alcohol policy of the government at this time. On April the 1st, 1963, the Department of Health through its Rehabilitation Services Division, undertook a comprehensive study of the following organizations: The Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba, the Salvation Army Harbour Lights Centre, The Alcohol Education Services, and the Manitoba Committee on Alcohol Education.

The purpose of the study was to obtain a clear and comprehensive picture of the services of each organization and their impact on the commtmity, and also to ensure that funds that were granted by the government are being effectively and efficiently expended, and thirdly, to develop a mech anism whereby the planning .and services of the four organizations could be effectively co ordinated.

The study revealed that there was some lack of communication between the four organizations directly concerned with the alcohol problem, and there was some lack of com munication on the part of each of the four organizations with the existing government and vol untary health, welfare and education agencies. But it was interesting to note that all of the four organizations appreciated the opportunity to participate in the study because they all felt that there was a need for a re-organize d and dynamic approach to the entire problem of alcoholism.

The major points that came out of this study and which bave been accepted by the government are as follows: that changes be made to The Alcoholism Foundation Act which would clearly define their objectives and functions and which would provide a smoother working administration, and as the members of the committee know, that has already been done; that the Alcoholism Foundation and the Salvation Army Harbour Lights Centre be designated by the government as a voluntary rehabilitation agency and be directly associated with the Rehabilitation Services Division of the Department of Health, and that all governrnen:t funds provided through the Alco holism Foundation and the Salvation Army Harbour Lights Centre come through the Rehabil itation Services Division of the department.

In the community we require two agencies providing voluntary rehabilitation services for the individual alcoholic. These two are the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba and the Salvation Army Harbour Lights Centre. It might appear that there is some duplication. However,the study clearly revealed that each agency served a specific type of alcoholic.

Effective April 1st, in 1964, the government grant to the Alcohol Education Services will be provided through the Health Education Branch of the Department of Health and the director of Health Education will be responsible for the development of a close working arrangement with the alcohol education services. The grant is to be increased from $30, 000 to $36, 000 in the new fiscal year and this was the grant that was formerly provided through the Department of Education.

Another recommendation that was accepted was that the Manitol:a Committee on Alcohol Education be disbanded on March 31st, 1964, and that the Health Education Branch of the Depart ment of Health be responsible for carrying out a program of alcohol education similar to the program of the Ma_llitoba Committee on Alcohol Education, and that the chairman of the Man itoba Committee on Alcohol Education be appointed as a consultant to the director of Health Education and paid an honorarium, and this arrangement has been made to provide for the continuity of the Manitoba Alcohol Education program.

Further it was agreed.to and accepted that the director of Rehabilitation Services establish immediately a co-ordinating committee on alcoholism composed of the executive directors of the Alcohol Foundation, and the Alcohol Education Services, the Commanding Officer of the Harbour Lights Centre, the Director of Health Education, and his consultant, who was with the Manitoba Committee on Alcohol Education.

And this committee to meet on a monthly basis for the purpose of develqling a clear working knowledge of each other's programs, of determining ways and means of integrating services, and of determining gaps in services, and suggesting ways and means of filling these gaps. And it has also been decided that a large advisory committee on alcoholism, with Page 1038 March 12, 1964.

(Mr . Witney , cont'd ) , .• repres entation from many different elements in the community, be established by the director of Rehabilitation Servi ces , and this advisory committ ee , or a sound ing board, would meet 'once or twice each year at which ttme they would be appra ised of the progra m in this field and be asked to offer their comments and their suggestions , <l;lJd it is our hope that the people who had formed the Manitoba Committee on Alcohol Educ ation will provide the nucleus for this large advisor y committe e which is to meet once or twice a year .

In rehabilitation there were some other developments. This year the Manitoba School of Medic al Rehabilitation will graduate its second class of physiothera pists and occupational thera pis ts . The establishment of this school in Manitoba was a timely one, considering other developments that have taken place in the physica l medicine in the provin ce . Without this school it would be bnpossi ble to ensure a. continuing supply of qualified therapists for the Rehab ilitation Hos pital and the physica l medici ne department of some of the active and extended treat ment hospitals and the mental hospitals .

In 1963 , through the rehabilitation centre and with the services of the various volunteer organiza tions , over 3, 000 children and adults were accepted for service . They were assisted in obtaining services ranging from a single counsellmg ses sion to comprehens ive medical treatment, provision of pro sthet ic appliances , vocational train ing, job placement, etc . And in addition , 50 mentally handicapped persons were served , from a rehabili tation standpoint , through the division of psychiatry . During the past year the rehabilitation

section has accepted for vocational rehabilitation a limited number of selected discharge es from our mental hospitals . Many meetings have been held with the senior officials of the division of psychiatry in developing working arrangement s, and in 1963 , e· former patients were reha bilita ted to full-time competitive employment , and at present there are 18 in various type s of vocational training cours es. This number is small . Ho.vever it clear ly indicate s the value of activity in this area which we plan to expand.

The development of a comprehensive vocational rehabilitation program for the post-m entally ill will need to take full cognizance of the excellent work done to date by the Canadian Mental Health Associa tion and to examine the particular role that they can play in this expanding pro gram . The provincial rehabilitation program developed i.n Manitoba to date has been a succes sful one.

This su ccess can be attribute d to the fact that both government and the community at large reco gnize the job of rehabilitation requires the combined facilities of government and voluntary agencies , and furth ermore , I think it can go without saying that an active citizen participation is an integral part of a good and succes sful rehabilitation program . During 1963 the mental institution s, namely, the Bran don Mental Heall:ih Hos pital and the Selkirk Mental Hos pital and the Winnipeg Psychiatric Insti tute had under treatment as in-patients a total of 4, 458 persons .

Direct admissions to these hospitals re ached an all time high of 1,6 79 for an increase of 146 , or approxtmately 10 percent over 1962 ,,an d this 10 percent figure has been occurri ng for approx imately the last three year s. Intensive treatment programs enabled the division of psychiatry to discharge from the establishments 1, 675 patients . The total separation s, including deaths , was 1, 89 4, an increase of over 10 percent as compared to 1962 . The intensive treatment prog -ram res ulte d in a decrease of 160 patients at these instit utions dur ing the year .

The community mental health activitie s of our hospitals in 1963 has also been increased. The Selkirk Hospital operated two community mental health clinic s, the Brandon Mental Hospi tal , one, and the Psychiatric Institut e provided such service as require d, mostly in the southern

section of the provin ce . And in addition, these hospitals opera ted very active out-patient departmen ts . The total number of patients tre ated was 4, 184 of which 1, 632 were new patients , and the. number of patients interviewed establishe d a new record of 17 ,2 36 which is up from 16 , 497 in 196 2. There has been over the years an incr easing demand for psychiatric services for childre n.

At the pre sent ttme there are two clinics in opera tion: the Child Guidance Clinic of Greater Winnipeg where during the year there were 8, 123 children seen, of which 5, 356 were not previously known to the clinic ; the Child Guidance Clinic of the Br andon Mental Hospital in the past year moved into its new quarte rs , and these new facilities will gre atly increase the efficiency of the clinic , as well as permitting an increase in person nel to meet the rapidly rising demand for serv ic e. .the year under review, 688 children from Bra ndon and the sur rounding district recei ved assess ment and trea tm ent.

During the year the efforts to return to the community retarded persons who have-been under training at the Porta ge la Pra irie School have been intensified. This program resul ted in the day-time placement of March 12 , 1964 Page 1039

(Mr . Witney , cont' d) . . . 29 girls and 17 boys , or an inc rease of over 50 per cent from 1962 . A few of these day-time placements have adjusted to the extent that full-time residency in the community has been accomplished. The Bro adway Home continue s to recei ve former patients from the Portage la Prairie Training School day-training program. These candidates are found to be conside rably better adjusted than those who formerly came direct without any prior community experience , and during the year there was an increase of boys and girls under supervis ion , bringing the total to 74 .

A comprehensive program for the care and training of the retarded pe r·sons in the province is un•der careful study. An aspect of this is to place the Broadway Home under the direction of the director of Rehabilitation Servic es . The Broadway Home vvill then benefit by all the rehab ilitation agencies being co-ordinate d under this service , and the Home 1 s Program can be expanded to provide help for retarded persons in the community who have not been trained at Portage la Prairi e.

During the year there has been increas ing use of the diagnostic .facilitie s, an increasing use that has been made by the courts , with a total of . 150 referrals repre senting again an apprec iable increase over the previous year. Of these , 40 were admitted to hospital for further treatment , and a small group were subsequently main taine d in group and individual therapy while serving sente nce , while the remainder were transferred to other hospita ls.

The division of psychiatry have recei ved excellent co-operation from the law enforcement author ities in making necessary arrangements for the patient, and it is probably best that arrange ments should remain on an informal and flexible basis . As in the previous years the hospital staff has been actively engaged in educational programs both for under-gr aduate and post graduate medical students, both of whom receive in-service training and instruct ion.

Practical training and experience is also being provided for the Winnipeg General Hospital School of Nursing, and for the School of Rehabilitation Medici ne . Apart from the new Child Guidance Clinic at Brandon, the new psychiatric institute at Selkirk will be in operation in a few months , as will the cottage system at Portage la Prairie. Now this cottage system is designe d for small numbers and with home-like maintenance which will reduce the hazard of undesirable features of mass living and lead to quicker and better rehabili tation.

I'd like for the moment also to make a statement on the meat program as this was promised to the Honourable Member for Elmwood at one time. The Department of Health has continued to support Canada Approved Inspection Service in all meat sl aughtering establishments throughout Manitoba as the ultimate goal. The activities of the department as well as that of the inter- departmental committee on meat have been directed to this end throughout the past year.

I While this is the stated goal, providing the most complete health protection for the people of Manitoba, I would make reference to the report to the Legis lature last year which stated, "It has been recogni zed from the outset that the setting of Canada Approved as a Manitoba goal for the commercial meat and poultry standard would have many economic implicatio ns , and as I warned, could not be achieved over a short period of time . The department has continue d discussi ons with slaughterhouse operators, equipment suppliers , federal authoritie s, muni cipal authoritie s, and others involved in the progr am .

The exist ing operations ha:ve been review ed, plans for modifications have been discussed, plans for new establishments have been scrutiniz ed, and as an intermedia ry step to federal inspection , proposed provincial regulations respecting building and equipment , standards as well as operating procedures have been drafted and are currently being given final review .

The lice ncing of slaughterhouses under The Public He alth Act regulations is currently a municipal responsi bi lity , but many municipaliti<:is have agreed that for the purpose of this program, such licenc ing could be a departmental respons ibility . A change has been proposed to centralize the licencing of slaughterhouses at least for an inte rim period. This would en,sure uniform applicati on of the legislation duTing a time when we hope to.raise standards and at the same time in showing that the local needs are met.

Local slaughterhouses range over a broad spectrum , from tho se operated by individual far mers , slaughtering less than 25 animals of their own raising yearly, to larger establishments slaughtering several thousand animals yearly. The application of similar standards to all the se establishments poses many problems. Many of the operators face major decisio ns . In fact, some are considering whether or not they should continue operation. It is of utmost Page 1040 March 10 , 1964

(Mr . Witney, cont'd) , • • importance that these operators be given a reasonable opportunity to assess all details and be provided assistance during this critical period and the Department of Health must at the same time insist that health safeguards are applied; water supply , sewage disposal, and general sanitation, construction , equipment, proces sing and other food safety measures.

The same health problems are not encountered with the sec ondary meat pro cesses , those establishmimts that process but do not slaughter, since these establishments purchase their supplies almost exclusively from Canada .Approved slaughter plants and health control of proces sing is carried out by the local health authorities. The problem faced by these oper ators is mainly one of economics to retain and to expand markets. I think, Mr.

Chairman, that I can state to the committee that practical progress has been made during _the· past year and, while this is a continuing program not yet complete , it has been established on a sound base providing continually increasing health safeguards for these important food products , and I would like again to pay respects to the many members of the industry for their patience , their understanding, and their assistance , and to my colleague s, the Minister of Industry and Com merce , and Agriculture and Conservation for the direct help that they have provided.

Some other activities of the Department of Health in which the committee might be interested in; the number of the Local Health Units remained at fourteen during 1963 , that the number of laboratory and X-ray units remained at six. Ho wever , several extensions of the boundaries of these Units-were effected during the year. On April 1st, 1963 , the Rural Municipality of Shellmouth joined the Birtle-Shoal Lake Local Health Unit and Laboratory and X-ray unit.

At the same time agreements were made with the Federal Government to extend the services of the Selkirk Local Health Unit to In dian :reservations at Fort Alexander and Scanterbury. And later the Selkirk Local Health Unit and Laboratory and X-Ray Units were extended to include the local government district of Pinawa. The population of this area is growing rapidly, and there is a lot of new construction . This entailed a lot of work on the part of the public health inspector in that area.

The Neepawa Local Health Unit and Laboratory and X-Ray Unit were extended by inclusion of the Rural Municipality of McCreary, and an additional portion of the local government district of Alons a. This extension included acquir ing a new sub-station for both laboratory and public health services at the McCreary Hospital . The Portage la Prairie Local Health Unit and Laboratory and X-ray Unit were extended by the inclusion of the Rural Municipality of Grey, and the Village of St. Claude including the St. Claude Hospital .

At the end of the year there were active enquiries concerning possible extension of Laboratory and-X -ray Units into the Red River Health Unit area, and the Stonewall Health Unit area. The provision of public health services to Indian reservation in t� Selkirk Health Unit have proved to be a satisfactory arrangement, and it is probable that this service will be gradually extended to include reserves in other areas of the province . Exclusive of the City of Winnipeg, some 483 ,0 00 people are now receiving full-time public health service by 14 health units . This is an increase of 6, 700 persons in the past year.

Laboratory and X-Ray services are available to some 17 4, 000 people, and in the estimates you will find provision to include another Health Unit in the south-west part of the province which will extend coverage to an estimated 40, 000 more people in: the Province of Manitoba. . ...... continued on next page March 12 , 1964 Page 1041

(Mr. Witney cont' d) ..•.. To deal briefly with the matters of venereal disease, during 1962 , Manitoba like some other states and provinces, once again intensified its activities in case-finding programs and in con tact tracing work. And an additional public health nurse was em ployed at the clinic during 1963, and this enabled us to expand our activities by adopting new techniques and to have a public health nurse interviewing service for the patients of private physicians. Care Services, a combined project of the Department of Health and the Department of Welfare, became operational on June 1st of 1963.

This organization was created and given re sponsibility for the development of services for the aged and infirm who do not require hospital care. It was established as a mea ns by which the Departments of Health and Welfare could de- ve lop an organization, pol icies, and proce dures, in which the staff, skills and resources of I each could be brought to bear in an orderly manner on a problem of caring for people in the various care categories below the hospital service.

This new office will provide a service of on-going study of the care needs in the community, will report on their findings and recomm enda- tions to ensure that all resources available are brought into being for the development and con- servation of care progra ms. In the Metropolitan Area of Winnipeg the Care Services Organiza- tion has assumed the re sponsibility of providing the necessary service s.

In the rural areas of the province, the Care Services Organization will provide the necessary advisory and consultant services to Health Units and welfare region s, to ensure a similar standard of operation, facility and service throughout the whole of the province. The services which the Care Services Organization is now pr oviding cover a very broad range and enter all aspects of the care field. In this regard they may briefly be des cribed in a general way under several headings.

One of them, the services to the patients, which I think is the most interesting to the committee ; this entails the provision of a comprehensive care program for each patient which could be consid- ered direct or indirect in that it means the provision of actual services to the public patient but is restricted to consultation, advice and assistance to the private patient. In providing com prehensive care for an individual, his total needs are assessed and how these requirements can best be met are clear ly defined and spelled out.

The end re sult, which is adequate care, largely depends on the assessment findings regar ding the present condition and present needs and potential of the patient, his fam ily, his home environment and the broad community re sources and going along with our ability to fully utilize these resour ces . Where possible, the patient is sustained in, or projected back, into her own home environment and, failing this, we consider depending on case , a logical sequence of care facilities, home of relatives, foster home, re sidential personal care home, or nursing care institution.

Some of the figures that show the work that has been done by care services I'm sure will be of interest. On Jtme 1st in 1963, 659 patients were transferred to care services from the City of Winnipeg Health and Wel fare Departments. And at the end of June the case -load for care services totalled 1, 609, with 1, 189 in various care institutions in the Metro area, 277 on care programs in their own homes, homes of relatives or foster homes, 56 on medicare with a minor care factor, and a smaller gr oup still unde.r consideration for proces sing placement and determination of financial resources, etc.

On November 30, 1963, this number had slightly increased to 1, 208 in various care insti: tutions and 350 on care programs in the community, such as their own home, re latives' home, foster home, etc. so in the six months I think that it has shown the value of the care services program. I'd like to refer now to some of the activities of the dental service s·i n the province. Co ordinated by the central office, there were several activities channelled through four regions and involved mobile clinics, established clinics, and various dental health education projects, in cluding participation in conventions, etc.

In the regions; No. 1 with headquarters at Dauphin, expensive clinical work has been carried out especially in the northern areas of the province where the need for dental care is great . The regional director travelled widely to carry out the dental school, the school dental health program, and through his efforts they obtained the services of radio and TV stations in prom oting better dental health.

No. 2 was centred at Bran don and the main program has been directed in carrying out the dental health program in schools of the south-western area of the province, and also the regional director has attended numerous me etings in areas which have shown interest in fluoridation, and pre-fluoridation surveys which have been carried out on request. No. 3 is based at the Norquay Building and established the Page 1042 March 12 , 1964

\ (JYir. Witney cont'd) ...... system to service eastern Manitoba, and No . 4 has headquarters at the Norquay Building and work is .carried out in Metro Winnipeg with the exclusion of the City of Winnipeg, and in the past year has been able to show progress. The regional director has the assi stance of a dental hygienist, and this greatly facilita tes the prog ress being made.

The school dental health program is very extens ive and a great deal of tim e is spent by the regional director attending the meetings of the medical directors of the various health units in conjunction with the esta blished dental clinics . Some of the other activities of the dental service ; in the mobile, in areas where dental care is not available all age groups have been taken .care of and in areas where dentists are inadequate, Grades 1, 2 and 3, plu s emergency care has been given.

There has been free clinical examination and educati onal programs carried out, and through the sponsorship of local organizations , treatment has bee.n provided to a con siderable number of children. Arrangements have been made with the Indian Health Services of the Department of National Health and Welfare, for dental treatment to be provided to treaty Indian children. There have been established clinics in the Health Units of Greater Winnipeg and at Portage la Prairie, with the emphasis on neglected children, ma inly covering Grades 1 and 2.

There has been a special clinic for the mentally retarded and handicapped children. A special clinic for the handicapped children in the St. Am ant Ward has been carried out, and this work has been done with every child needing dental care having their treatment requirements com pleted.

In the north county, in the Northern Health Services, since the inception of the organiza tion in 1959, provincial Northern Health Services have been consolidating a long-term progra m, the purpose of whi ch was to develop an integrated health program combining public health with trea tment services in the isol ated communities located in the sprawling wilderness of northern Manitoba.

The medical and health problems of the people in this area are identical with other inhabitants of Ca nada •s north country, inadequate medical facilities except in the larger towns , a few or no rural medical practitio ners, a handful of public health nurses travelling up the line, trybg to cope with a tide of human sickness and affliction, the squalor and other certain diffi culties. There were no clinics except in the areas covered by federal services, and commu nica tions were often sparse and complex.

In addition to the statutory services regarding environ menta1 sanitation which had to be provided by two public health inspectors, the Northern Health Services have also conducted and continue to conduct a sanitary control and quality control pro g-.cam on northern Manitoba 's fishing indust ry. During the year close liaison and co-o peration has been maintained with ot.ller government departments such as Mines and Resources, Muni cipal Affairs, Welfare, Indian Affairs, municipalitie s, local government districts , and commer cial fish operators, to ma intain a co-or dinated and smooth functioning program.

And finally, Mr. Chairman, I would like to refer to the Manitoba Hospital Commission. The Manitoba Hospital Commission continued the implem entation of the hospital construction program based on the recommendations set out in the report of the Manitoba Hospital Survey Board which was submitted in 161, and the status of the program as at December 31st of last year is as follow s: Including certain projects approved prior to the completion of the Survey Board Report, 34 construction and renovation projects have been completed at a cost of $21, 400, 000. 00.

Construction on five further projects costing $3 million is underway. Construc tion on ten projects costing $16 million is expected to commence in 1964; 23 additional projects estim ated to cost $20, 300, 000 have been approved and these will likely be undertaken during the years 1964 to 1968 . And in general, Mr. Chairman, I think that the Department of Health can report progress . Within the vario us estima tes you will find a greatly increased number of people for the psychiat ric program .

We have added to the psychiatric program some 90 people, which will permit us to provide for better service in the mental instituti'ons that we operate, and will also provide us with an extra commu nity mental health unit for the Selkirk area, and to complete a second com munity mental health area in the Brandon area of the province. And then, as I already mentioned to you, you will find as we go along in these estimates that there will be an increase in money to provide for the extension of another local Health Unit in the south-western

section of the province. And also in these estimates will be money to assist in a pilot project, an experimental project, for a residential school for retarded children at Swan River, with the government shar ing 50-50 with the Associ ation for Retarded Chil dren. March 12 , 1964 Page 1043

(l\Ir. Witney cont 'd) •..... Now 1\'Ir. Chairman, that is the statement that I wish to make . I• m quite sure that there have been areas that I ma y have missed which may be of interest to the commi ttee, but I trust that what they have been told now will be of some value to them in tackling the estimates of the Department of He alth and I will now do the best I can to answer the various questions that are going to be posed. . ..• Continued on next page Page 1044 March 12 , 1964 /

MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, first of all l'd like to wish the new Minis ter well. I think that he is taking a big step. This is a very dem anding department that he's taken charge of, and I think that he will need all the help and co-operation of everybody if he wants to make it a succe ss. I also would -- usually it is the procedure and wish I think to thank all the people that are working so hard in the certain department. I couldn't start nami ng them all, I'm sure that I would forget too many.

But this year I've had the chance of observing, more than usual, the hospital staff, doctors and nurses , student nurses, acting nurses, and the Sisters of dif ferent hospitals and es pecially the staff, and es pecially the people of St. Boniface Hospital, and I can say that I have nothing but praise and thanks for these people who are doing such a good job. We hear so often about the high sal ary and so on of the medical professi on. We criticize them, that they don't see m to be at our beck and call all the time. Well l've certainly seen men that are really dedicated.

I knew that this existed but I received another further proof, and I think that we cannot thank those people enough for what they're doing for us, and for the people of Mani toba, and I think they're doing so much to help those that are suffering here in our hospitals and in our province. There's one thing, I was very interested in the statement and the diffe rent report of the Honourable Minis ter. One thing that pleased me very much especially was this report on alco hol education. I think that this is a step in the right direction.

I know that I've been advocating this for a numb er of years and felt that we should have more co-ordination, more co-operation. I felt that in the past we have been just -- it see ms like we were blackmai led or so since the Bracken Com mission. It was suggested that some of this money or some revenue from the - and its a high source of revenue here in this province -- revenue from the sa le of liquor, should go back to educate the people , but in the past it see ms that this was not taken too seri ously.

It seems that it was just the guilty people of Manitoba fi guring that they were making so .much money on this they should give some back, and as I say it looked more like blackmail money, and it seems now that maybe we are going to take a step in the right direction. One thing that disappointed me though with all the money that is being spent, the Honour able Minister spoke for close to three quarters of an hour and I don 't think he spent more than a minute or two on the Manitoba Hospital Plan.

Now he said also that he was very pleased in taking over this department he followed some very capable Minis ter and he felt that at least he had something on them, that he was in better shape ; in other words, he was taking a depart ment that was in much better shape. Well, I don't think that he should start his duty being disillus ioned so.

I think that we all know that the Manitoba Hospital Plan is in a pretty critical sitnation, and I don •t think that we -- I'm sure the Minister's not fooling himsel f and not trying to fool us -- and I'm sure that he also should feel that we should let the people of Manitoba know about this problem that we have now in this Manitoba Hospital Plan. First of all, I say that the Province of Manitoba is not, in many cases, is not fulfilling their part of the contract.

We have a compulsory plan here in this province and it is definitely a fact, a proven fac t, that many people can not go to the hospitals , many people that should be in the: hospital. I'm not now accus ing the government of -- well, they should have beds right away -- this will take time. But there is a problem. I'm not necess arily blami ng the govern ment for this, but the government will have to face this problem . We have a contract with the people of Manitoba; it's a compulsory plan.

They are paying their premiums and they're not getting the service they're entitled to, the service that they are paying for. I know of definite c.ases of people that died at home, people that should have been in the hospital. Now I think that this is not a question of putting the blame anywh ere. Maybe we'll start thinking of changing this plan . Maybe this plan should be compulso ry. I always felt that we needed a plan.

I didn't like -- I never did like this business of compulsory, and I think that I would like to suggest to the Honourable Minister that he take this under advisement, that he should look into this. We will have a medical plan no doubt one of these years and I hope that we don't go ahead blindly and get a compulsory medical plan here also. We should try to put our house in order before bringing in another plan. Now there defi nitely are a shortage of beds .

It is a very diffi cult thing to build to have exactly the right am ount of beds , but in the meantime there's a certain percentage of the popu lation, a certain group of people and I think that the Minis ter will have to admit that, who are March 12 , 1964 Page 1045

(Mr. Desja rdins, Cont'd .) ... not receiving what they're paying for. The are paying for something; they are forced to take this ; they have no choice in the matter; and then when it's time for them to collect, when it's time for them to take advantage of this, to receive the aid, they are told that there's no room in the hospital. This is getting to be quite a thing. In fact we are told now that certain hospitals do not even bother with waiting lists because they can't fill them.

I think that this is a pretty touchy thing, pretty important subject, and we'll have to do something about this fairly soon and this won't be done in a day. In the meanti me, some thing will have to be done for those people who are paying for their services and not receiving it. There are many ways maybe that we can improve. We'll have to get more beds in a hur ry.

As I say now, we are told that they're not even bothering in many cases with waiting lists, and we're even starting to have some rumors -- I say starting, I haven 't heard this before - that there is favoritis m in certain places in the admittance of patients. I guess this is some thing that we'll always have with us. I think this is going to be very diffic ult to get, but it is a thing that some people are compla ing about. The previous Minister of Health can shake his head as much as he wan ts .

This is certainly som ething that I've heard, and something that some of the people here in Manitoba feel that is happening . Now until more beds are being made available to these people, we've heard of diffe rent ways that we can imp:r;ove. But we seem to be -- we're talking about the Willard Report, we didn't hear too much about it today -- we're talking about building hospitals . I think that we're behind in certain districts anyway in fulfilling this report and we were supposed to follow this very reiigiously. Other places were starting to build before the year announced.

I think that it might be dangerous to just build acute care hospitals. I think we'll have to think of the other type of hospitals to release beds, and this will make it just as easy. I think that we're probably starting in the wrong end if we're just thinking of building beds . We'll eventually have too ma ny beds at a great cost to the people of Manitoba. There are diffe rent things that we should do. I think that we've talked about this before and we don't hear any more about it. This business of using seven days -- this is a very very costly situation that we have in the hospitals .

It is very costly to keep these hospitals open and I see no reason why we can't use the facilities of the hospitals seven days a week. We have talked about this and we've talked about this too long. There's no reason why the operating rooms can't be used. A lot of people now are on waiting lisfs on this and so metimes you suffer quite a bit and you wouldn •t mind going there on a Saturday or on a Su nday . Now it's not requesting the doctors to work seven days a week. They can't always

schedule the operation that they want. There are certain days that they cannot get the operating I room and I think that this certainly would help. I think that the weekend in many cases seems to be a wasted period. They will say, well come in Friday and we'll start on Monday or some- thing, and you miss a day there. I think these days can count and that they will add up at the end of the year . I think that also this will add up as many other things to the per diem cost, and I think that this is not an honest cost that we're giving the people of Mani toba.

I think that the picture of the cost is exaggerated, because we charge too many things to the hospital. As I say, there's two days right there that we could us e, the per diem cost would go down; we could serve more people; we would need less beds and it wouldn't cost much more. Now I think that there's a lot of things in a lot of hospitals -- we have certain hospitals that are clas sified as teaching hospitals . This is charged to the Plan, arid I think that this is wrong. I think that we should realize that many of these things should not be charged to the people as a cost.

It might be the fact that the people of Manitoba will end up paying for it any way, but that could go to the Department of Education ami charged to the universities and so on. I think that this is !J.n important thing. There's many of these charges that are not related to the patient care that are being charged to this Plan, and I certainly think that this per diem cost is not the right one. And then I doubt if the diffe rential is also the correct one also. It see ms that we are trying to pick up a little bit of loose change from the people that are taking advantage of sem i-private rooms and private rooms.

I think that this is quite a bit higher than they should pay and these are the same people that are taxed now and that are paying large prem iums. At least let's be honest about that. If we have to tax these people a little more, let's tell them . Page 1046 March 12 , 1964

(Mr. Desjardins , Cont'd. ) ... I'm not against the fact that these people will have to pay more , but let's not hide and have hidden taxes here ; and let's not pretend that this per die m cost is so high, because it just isn't so. I think that we should try to have an honest per diem cost, and a lot of the things that I mentioned could be done and the cost ce rtainly would be lower. Then there's another thing that we spend an awful lot of money on. It is research, and I think that this is a terrific idea.

But now, after all this research, every day we are looking, trying to f:ind ways to prevent suf fering, to prolong life, to help the people in many fields , and this is som ething that we're all in favour of. But now the Manitoba Hospital Plan, as a result of the lack of funds , are imposing numerous arbitrary maximum allowances and similar limit ations on various categories of hospital expenditures . These arbitrary allowances have been estab lished by the government agency without the participation of the hosp�tals for various pro fess ional groups .

The government have ass ured the resi dents of the province that they are to rece ive an adequate level of standard ward care and many hospitals, as a result of these arbi trary limitations, are being presented from providing the standard of care necess ary and in keeping with the progress being made by medical science . I think you will unders tand what I am trying to say here that we are spending an awful lot of money on research. Some of this by the way is also charged against the per diem cost, and this I feel is wrong again. We find something -- new methods and so on, but no -- the costs have gone so high.

The Hospital Plan has to do something about it -- the hospital com mission .:_ and they decide that so much money and that's it. They don 't even discuss this many times with administrators and people in different hospitals . Well what's the use of trying and spending money in research if once we find something we can't take advantage of it. We might say, well this is a pretty cos tly operation, pretty costly treatment, we'll allow seven or eight or nine in this hospital. Well, who are we to say that the ninth, the eighth or the ninth or the tenth case coming in should not have the same care .

This is some thing that we can't play around -- that we can't fool around with, this bus:iness of hospitals. We are told often that the Liberals are saying that there's too much money spent. I think that this is once where we will not. We feel that this money has to be spent, especially when the people are paying for it and espec ially when it's a compul sory plan and they're forced to pay for it. I think that maybe we should forget some of these great monuments to the government here , these pyramids that they're building, and try to help the people where it really means something.

Maybe if we were not worrying about be:ing first in this -- and this government shouldn't worry about be ing first in this, and another first here and another first there -- and take care , start fulfilling the contract that they've made with the people, that they've forced the people to enter into. I think that this is certainly much more important. Now I think that there is another thing. We're talking about minimum wages. Now we have , I believe , a group of people here that are working very very hard in this hospital.

They are getting training mind you, but I think that they are providing quite a bit helping these people, helping the people of Manitoba. They used to -- that is , not too long ago -- they were getting some renumeration anyway; now there 's nothing at all for student nurses and they have to go three years. We see there's a shortage of nurses, and I think that these people are sub sidizing the Hos pital Plan up to a point. Everybody else is being paid on-the-job training.

We hear abo�t this, and these student nurses , because it costs so much, because they are working for this Plan, because there's a shortage of money, we 're not worrying about minimum wages with them at all. We won 't even give them $5. 00 a month as we used to .give them before. It's true that they are getting training, but Pm sure that they're ce rtainly giving out an awful lot more than it costs to give them this training.

I think that in all fairness if we want to atttact the young girls , the kind of young girls that we want in this field, if we want a re medy to this shortage, I think that we should think of maybe giving them a few dollars . We treat the prisoners better than that. We give them spending money to buy cigarettes anyway .. Maybe not cigarettes now -- nobody 's smoking - but maybe a chocolate bar here and there , and I think that these student nurses could buy the odd Coca Cola and a chocolate bar once in awhile; I think maybe a pair of nylons here and there .

I think that it's time that we start thinking about this and start giving them their share . Again the former Minister of Health is shaking h,is head. I don 't know, maybe he feels that they should be working for nothing but I certainly don't think so . l think that if there's a minimum March 12 , 1964 Page 1047

(Mr . Desja rdins, Cont' d. ) ... wage for cert ain people , I think Jf we have train ing on the job for other people and we pay them for that -- I read somet hing not too long ago that some body was working or trai ning on the job and the part of the training was taking a bulldozer and cl eaning up streets of the government em ployees and the bosses around there. They're paid by the government for that, so surel y we coul d give some of these st udent· nurse s, or at least think of maybe hel ping them on in taking this long course . Now, there is a lack of funds in this plan. Ther e' s no doubt about that.

Why -- I don't know -- the government have changed policies so often. I re me mber that they doubled the , think it was doubled the pre mi um one year . This was project ed -- they didn't need all this money right away . This was projected over three years . TI1en the following year, well of course the government was stuck because they had to approve of somet hing that they didn't reall y believe in, that Diefenbaker had done , so they had to give a bonus to the people of Manit oba . TI1ey tr.ied to --· they had to bring a smo ke screen, so they reduced the pre mi um.

They had just brou ght the m up the year before . They reduced the premium and that was the way to bring this income tax into this . Now we are told this has gone up so much we forget about the income tax. The First Minister here a few weeks ago was talking about all the difference , all the money that it would cost now, mi llions of dollars , and he forgot about this income tax. He forgot the fact that he had reduced the pre miums and that this income tax was supposed to be earm arked for this hospital plan. I think that this has to be reme mbered. We 'll have • ..> see what are they going to do now.

I re me mber at the time my leader was saying that we should get more money for Ott awa but the First Minis ter, the Minister of Health was perfectly satisf ied at the ti me.

This was the best deal that we ever received, and that we're getting more money from Ottawa now and they're still going after some more, and we 're right behind them and we still feel the same as we did, that the change of government it doesn't matter, but the share of Ottawa in this business of paying for the sick of the country should be the same every>vhe re, that we should have a better share, a bigger share of this , and we approv e the m and we're right behind them when they try to get mor e money from Ottawa.

But they told us that this wasn't the only way and they can •t just cry now because Diefr;nbaker is no longer there. They have to find a way to pay· the bills also. Now there is another thing that we'v e heard an awful lot about. It was the question of home care. We sent people to the Stat es; we made all kinds of SLtrveys on this ; this was sup posed to be a terri fic thing, and I be lieve that it is , but we 're still st udying this . We 're still st udying this . Yes, the gover nment has been too busy nami ng different boards and different com missi ons that they haven't had a chance to st udy too mu ch.

But I think that this is some thing. I know that cert ain hospitals are all ready to go . They would have , they cou ld provi de the doctors and the st aff to have home care . This would help the people that I men tioned a while ago that are paying their premiums but that are not recei ving enough servi ce. I think this would help. It would release cert ain beds. It would create more beds and more room for other people, and I think it would ce rtainly be less cos tly if we could do this without building mor e hospit als . Now there 's a ques tion that I'm very interested in.

It's the ques tion of Grace Hosp ital in St. James . I certainly think that St. James should have a hospital. I cert ainly think that the best people to run this hospital are the Salvati on Ar my. They have proven this before . They 've given us good service here in Winnipeg for many years . What r· want to know now, I want a little more , a little better answer than the Minis ter , the Honourable Minist er, gave my leader a few days ago of yes and no , and so on . We understand that the federal government is re ady to turn over some of these veteran hospitals to the province for different groups and so on.

We want to know a _little mor e about this . I think we 'r e entitled to know this . And if this is the case I believe that there are 640 beds in Deer Lodge, and if this is the case I think that we want to know, first of all, is there a need for that second hospital? I' m not su ggesting that there isn 't! I want to know if there is a need for that second hospital. That could be pretty cost ly to the people of the municipality. It would be pretty cos tly to the Salavation Arm y and to the governm ent and therefore to the people of Manitoba. Now I' m not sugges ting that we should abandon the veterans .

I think this will be taken care of. TI1is is a decisi on and a re sponsi bility of the federal government and out of 640 beds you can keep a lot of beds for Page 1048 March 12 , 1964 I

(lY J.r. Desja rdins, Cont'd. ) ... veterans because this Grace Hospital that's supposed to be going up now I think is only 200 beds or 250 beds, I'm not sure . Now, I'm not giving any ideas on that -- I don't know enough about it. But I think that before these estim ates are finished that the Minister should tell us a lot more about this. We have a hospital with new wings at Deer Lodge. This could be turned over to the Salvation Army quite easily, I im agine . Now, maybe the Salvation Army is not ready to accept it, I don't know. This could be done at a big savings , a large saving.

I' m not against this hospital in St. James . I want to make sure that the Min ister or any memb ers across fr om me don't try to change what I'm trying to say tonight, what I'm saying tonight. I just want to know if this is the right thing to do, if we should proceed immed iately with this. Not just for political reasons, we -- you see, we're talking about poli tics again, and the people of Manitoba, especially around elect ion time, are told that all these services, all this hospital care, all this is free .

This is very popular at elect ion time and politicians from all parties bring this in usually, but I think this is time that we tell the people that this is not fr ee, that they're paying for it, and that we try to give good manage ment to their money in this fie ld. Now, I think that before building all these hospitals for acute need, !think that there's probably a neces sity to have a certain policy for nursing homes, and some of these homes where we can take some of the patients out of these hospitals and much cheaper -- we can take care of them much cheaper just as well.

I think that this hasn •t been done enough in the past. Now I'm told that, if my info rmation is right, that a new hospital was supposed to be built in St. Bonifac e, an extended·t reatment hospital. This has been in the report and on the

schedule that we were given a few years ago. Now apparent ly this hospital will be built near the St. Boni face Sanatori um , and I understand -- 1 might be mis taken on this -- but I understand that the doctors around St. Boniface hospital, or who I know go into St. Boniface hospital, do not want any part of this , and they feel that an extended treatment hospital should be close by to the acute hospital, the general hospital , and I think that it makes a lot of sense.

They could use some of the same equipment as they have in the hospital ins tead of duplicating this; they could use a lot of the same facilities that are there, and if they have to go for certain care there is nothing to it -- from this hospital or from this wing or so they can be transferred in the proper depart ment, and besides that the doctors are certainly in a better po�ition to assist these people if they are close by, and there is no doubt in my mind that these p�ople would receive much bet ter care if they were just walking distance from the general hospital , from tpe acute treatment hospital, instead of being miles away , and I don 't think -- I'd like to know why the change .

This is not what it was supposed to be. This hospital was to be built just next door to St. Boniface Hospital. I'd like to know why . I'd like to know why -- I'd like to know if it's going to mean a saving to the people of Manitoba, if there's going to be any improvement. Am I wrong? Are the doctors satisfied with this ? Do they feel that this is the better way ? Why is this going to be done ? It seems that we're getting a little panic now in this fie ld of building hospitals , and that we might do things that we will regret later on.

Now, as I said, a few years ago the plan, the comm issi on infor med the diff erent hospitals that they were allowed only four percent increase, 1 think it was , last year over the approved · figure of 19 62. Well 1, as well as anybody else, realize thatthey just haven't got a barrelful of money they can dish it out and dish it out, but I think that they're -- again I repeat what I said last year.

We have to have a little more co-operation between the operators of the commi ssi on and the diffe rent administrators. 1 think that they have to talk these things over and 1 think that vye have to have enough money to give what the people of Manitoba are promised. I think that this has to be done and -- now, we're not saying that they're going to give four percent and they might have a defic it and they'll get it in a few yea rs.

By the way , these hospitals are again sub sidizing the people, the province of Manitoba, up to a certain point, because some of those de ficits dating back to 1962 have not been paid. Some of these budgets -- apparently this year the budgets have been approved a lot earlier than bef ore, but this is one thing in the past that was very very bad. These people have to know if their budgets will be approved.

They have to work on that and it's too late in October telling them that they can't, that this is not approved when they've been operating on that budget for so many yea rs. · There's another thing that I have mentioned in the past that I'd like to know, how we can ma nage , how we could -- we think this is right to charge the interest on the overdraft on these March 12 , 1964 Page 1049

(Mr. Desj ardins, Cont' d. ) .•. defic its. This has not been -- we've never allowed the hos pitals to charge this and they have to pay it themselves. Now again I think that I could make a certain point here. I can ask the Minister -- I know that I won't get an answer -- I can ask the Minister if there is -- I can tell him that there's a lot of people in Manitoba that are a little afraid . They think that the St.

Boniface Hospital will be closed and maybe the Grace Hospital and Victoria Hospital, because of this great principle of separation of church and state as we see it in Manitoba, and I think that the Minis ter would be well advised to tell the people of Manitoba if there's a danger of this, be cause right now many of them are very disturbed and they fe el that this thing of sepa ration of church and state can go pretty far. I think that the people of Grace Hospital and the people at Misericordia Hospital and St.

Boniface are entitled to know, or should they get ready to pack and go in another province or maybe another country ? I think this is an important thing also. The Honourable Minister has been talking about -- Oh, this is a big joke to the, what is it, Caesar or so·mething. It's a big joke, but it's not a big joke for a lot of people of Manitoba.

A lot of people like to laugh and giggle, make a big show, but I can assure you that there's people of Manitoba that fe el certain things, so I think that you should try to at least be a little more careful with your laughing and don't try to laugh too loud anyway, because you might be laughing from the other side of your face one of these days . Now Mr. Chairman, the Honourable Minis ter, as I said, gave us a good state ment. He didn't say too much about the hospital plan. I've done the opposite.

I think that this is the most important thing now, talking about this hospital plan, and I'd like to know more about this . There is no doubt that we're facing a crisis here in Manitoba on this plan. I'm not try ing to scare the people of Manitoba but I think we're entitled and they're entitled to know, and I think that there is no reason why we should try to hide this any more. Al l of a sudden we'll have a big premium or a sales tax or something to pay for this. We're building dikes, flood ways , and all these things. They might be very important but I think this is one of the most important things there is.

I certainly don't blame the Minister or the government for all the I situation that we're in. I think that they can take their share of the blame but I think that they have to be honest and fact this squarely and maybe enlist the help of the people of Manitoba to provide hospitals and beds and maybe go in in a new field, try something else -- maybe try, as I mentioned befor e, this operating Saturdays and Sundays. I think that we would sa ve an awful lot of money there. I think that this is a good thing.

It would be eas ier on the patients also, and also that this home care that we studied so much, I think that has to be looked in -- not only looked in, in fact we have to take a decision fairly soon. We have to be careful on this new hospital in St. James. If there's a chance that we're going to -- if there's a good chance and the Minister and the government are the only people that know -- if there's a good chance of obtaining this hospital, let's not have a white elephant there just for political reasons.

It would be a lot easi er for me not to men tion this, because I know that some of my words will be twisted around, but I think this is a very important thing and I think the Minis ter should look into this. Now, he might have some reasons for wanting to go ahead with both hospitals, I don't know, but I think that we're entitled to know. There's another thing before I sit down, Mr. Chairman. rthink that we'll have to take another look at this -- in th� new construction -- of this 20 percent that we ask the diff erent hospitals to raise.

There is no doubt that since this is supposed to be -- esp ecially a compul sory plan and especially since the taxes have been changed, the premiums have been dropped, and if it's the same people that are paying all the taxes, there is no doubt that you will not get as many donations, and there is no doubt that it will be extremely diffic ult, if not impossibl e , to raise this 20 percent. I think that we've seen that in Victoria Hospital. We might be in danger of losing a good hospital . People have been working very hard, and I think this is a very diffic ult thing again.

I think that we should all co-operate in that, but I think this is an important thing and I think that the Honourable Minister should look into this very soon. Now, as I say, I have wanted to stay with the medical plan and there'll be time for other questions and so on a little later on. MR . PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, at the offs et may I offer my congratulations to the new Minister of Health and wish him well in his new venture. I can appreciate and realize, as I am sure indeed that he does, that in accept ing the portfolio as Minister of Health in the Province Page 1050 March 12 , 1964

(Mr . Paulley, Cont'd. ) ... of Manitoba that he sure l y has a task ahead of him. Having had the opportunity of watching my honourable young friend over a few years , I know that he will give all of his energy to his new task and will acquit himself well in his venture. Now having said this, Mr. Chairman, I regret very much that I have to say a few words in connection with the Department of Hea lth that he may not find too great favour with.

I know that my honourable friend will realize the sincerity of my opening statements, notwithstanding what I may say hence forth in respect of the estimates of the Department of Health. First of all, Mr. Chairman, I want to say to my honourable friend as he starts out in his new venture that he is following a very progressively-minded individual in the present Minister of Education, and I do say in all sinc erity , progressively-minded individual in the Honourable Member for Gimli. Unfortunately, .e ither due to the treasury

section of t1�e governm ent opposite, the progressively-minded ideas my friend had, or at least indicated to us that he had have not been put into practice in the Province of Manitoba and that we are still lacking in the field of health . many of the desired things that even the previous Minister of Health has suggested that we should have here in the Province of Manitoba. May J start my criticism, and I trust constructive criticism in general, by referring to a booklet which was placed on our desks the other day titled "Review, 1963 . A synopsis of the activities of the Manitoba Department of Health.

" I want to say to my honourable friend the Minister of Health, this is an interesting document. If the idea behind the publication was to send it to our public schools and other like institutions in order to give a quick synopsis of what is happening in the Department of Health in the Province of Manitoba -- I note that the booklet, lVIr. Chairman, as possibly you have too, is well illustrated by very interes ting pictures which will attract, I am sure , many readers .

But may I respectfully suggest to my honourable friend that as a member of this House and as one of those particularly in opposition, that I'm more interested in the factual data of the Department of Health than I am in looking at a beautiful lot of pictures which take up at least half of the booklet that is put before us . In previous years , it was our privilege as members of the House, to receive statistical information as to what was happening in the various sec tions of the department.. We haven •t rece ived that this year.

I don 't know if the document that my honourable friend was reading from this evening was the un-proofread edition of what we eventually are going to get from my honour able friend in his department. It seemed as though it might be, Mr . Chairman, and I ask my honourable friend to give us copies of the statistical information that he read from this evening in order that we might properly analyze the situation insofar as the Department of He alth is concerned at firs t hand. This, I again suggest, Mr.

Chairman, is a beautiful looking document printed on good paper, but reveals little to us as me mbers of this House that we can actually give cons ideration to what the department is doing. What I mean, Mr.

Chairman, even we start out on page 7 there 's a picture of two lovely young ladies at the bottom of page 7 with two darling looking babies talking about -- "following participation in the department's recent maternal child health television series, these young mothers presented a personal testimony to the va lue of prenatal and post-natal education." Beautiful, but what value is it to us in this House in an analysis of what the department is doing in respect of this matter?

Then as we go through the pages of this book we do find here and there brief references to statistics which really don •t mean very very very much to us on this side of the House. Or we can read: "Ex-me ntal Patients Perform Well. " Al l right. Sounds good. There 's no picture incidentally -- oh yes there is , there is a picture here in connection with one aspect of this . But the headline on the paragraph I now am referring to on Page 13 : "Ex-mental Patients Per form Well. " And then there •s a brief outline conce rning with a few mental patients who are having some training. It's very fine, Mr .

Chairman, but we want to know more than this. We want to have full information as to the operation of the department laid before us in this House. "Physically Disabled Potential Wage Earners . Through government and volunteer agencies, over 3, 000 disabled children or adLllts are provided ass istance ranging from single counsel ling sessi ons to comprehensive medical treatments." Not enough, Mr. Chairman.

If we're going to be concerned, as we are going to be concer ned here with the estimates for the Department of Health totalling 21 millions of dollars of the taxpayers' money of the Province of Manitoba, we want more information than we're getting here from our honourable friend the Minister of March 12 , 1964 Page 1051

(Mr . Paulley, Cont'd. ) . . . Health in this booklet. So I say, Mr. Chairman, one can go through the various pages of this book seeking in formation that is not forthcoming. I turn to Page 24 where my honourable friend -- and I might say that in this booklet he's attempting to cover the waterfront, but only the front and not the back of the water. He deals here with a question of fluoride parks and resorts .

It mentions here the fact that "regulations concer ning bathing premises call for approval of all public bathing facilities prior to construction, and an annual operating permit from the local health authorities. " The report then in this sec tion goes on to say: "During 1963 , 11 bathing pre mises were approved, bringing the total under review since August, 1959 , to 45. " I' m sure , Mr.

Chairman, the people of the Province of Manitoba who go to our health resorts , and I' m thinking particularly of some around the orbit of the Greater Winnipeg area, are just as much concerned with how many continuing inspections are be ing made by the De partment of Health in respect of these resorts .

How many inspections were made by the De partment of Health to make sure that after the initial resort has been inspected that the waters in these swimming pool and sum mer resorts, and I'm thinking right now of those in the Birds Hill area, have been inspected to make sure that the waters in them are sanitary and fit for bathing and the likes of that. This is the type of information, I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that should be contained in a report of the department. We can well understand, as the minis ter says here , during '63 eleven bathing prem ises were approved. Well, what does he mean by approved?

Did one member of the department go out and take a look at the facilities at the start of the season and did he say that they were all right? Was there any follow-up on this? These are the questions that I pose to my honourable friend the Minister and these are the answers I suggest that I shouldn't have to be asking my friend across the floor of this House tonight, that they should be contained in the report of the department as to exactly what they did.

It mentions here also -- and I'm sure that my honom·able colleague from Elmwood will be devel oping this further -- on page 26 , it mentions the fact that "a policy dem anded rigid standards for all slaughterhouses and other meat-processi ng establishments has proved an effective health safeguard. " I'm sure my honourable friend from Elmwood will be asking the Minister in due course: "H ow many meat-processing establishments were inspected by the Department of Health ? How many establishments in the Province of lVIanitoba are obtaining permission to use the Canada Approved label?" -- and the likes of that.

But I leave that to my colleague for Elmwood to develop further a little later on in the cons ideration of the department. And here 's_a_real honey, Mr. Chairman, on page 30, showing a picture here of an aerator integrated into the sugarbeet plant waste disposal system which eliminates sulphates and re juvenates waste water. I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that for the purpose of we in this Asse mbly, far better to use the space that's taken up by this picture in telling us exactly what this all means and how many inspections have been made, and further details as to the sanita tion and inspection of the various aspects of dealing with the matter that the picture refers to. Lovely pictures in this book, showing of the nursing services that are performed in the Province of Manitoba.

"Es tablished within the health department since 1916 , the public health nursing services involved in a major way in practically every form of activity undertaken by the department in the broad field of disease prevention and control. " Lovely, and it sounds very good, Mr. Chairman, and it's very true , but we don't want this information by way of pic tures. We want to know in the expenditures of our nursing services exactly what is transpiring within that sec tion of the department. And so, Mr. Chairman, I could go on page after page in this beautiful looking booklet the Minister gave us the other day.

It mentions here on page 49 "a.new dental plan conceived, staunchly supported, and implemented by the Manitoba Dental Associ ation. A novel dental care program was started in 1963 , des igned to provide dental care on a private practice basis in areas where there are no dentists . This plan calls for practicing dentists to staff clinics on a periodic temporary basis in a pre-de signated area. Mobile equipment and assis tance in the implementation of this plan was provided by the health department. " It does mention that a few pamphlets were issued, some 22, 60 0 children were examined in 1963, but I'm sure, Mr.

Chair man, the members of this committee would like to know where the clinic operated in more Page 1052 March 12 , 1964 I I

(Mr. Paulley, Cont'd. ) . . . detail than is contained in this very beautuully illustrated booklet that I am referring to . It's really a gem of artistry. It is a tribute -- iC is a tribute to the printing profession; it is a tribute to the pulp and paper industry of Canada that they produced this, but I'm certainly sure, Mr. Chairman, it's no tribute to the Department of Health and it reflects on the -- I suggest it reflects on the opinion that the Department of Health and the Minister must have on the intellect of the memb ers of this commi ttee when they produce a thing like this to give us the informa tion.

Surely my honourable friend must think that we on this side of the House -- or the me mbers indeed on every part, on all sides of this House -- are en titled to more factual informat ion than what is contained in this book.

It might be that my hon ourable friend is of the opinion, or that some , if not all, of us in this House are incapable of absorbing detailed knowledge, but let me assure him that if we can't abso:r;b it ourselves, we at least can find some who will read it and interpret it for us so that we have a more intelli gible understanding of what is happening, so I beseech him to not, at least, insult the intelli gence of the House in an due respects to the beautiful appearance of this book, don't insult the intelligence of the House again by asking us to accept the guff that's contained in here unless you're going to accom pany it by full detailed informat ion on the bas

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	27-2-40
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	27th 2nd hansardpdf 40.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4f859f1a966a473485c07f8251878c2c6ad601f6

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