Manitoba Hansard — 15 June 1998 (Sitting 64, 36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-64

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session- Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 64- 1:30 p.m., Monday, June 15, 1998

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Mariann•� CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUA Y, Louist:, Hon. DERKACH, Leona1rd, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Alben: DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Ke•lin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWAY, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon.

McGIFFORD, Diant: MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupensland Gladstone Crescent wood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

4443 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday,June15,1998 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Rail Line Abandonment Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, I beg to present the petition of F. Corbett, R. Patience, A. Kroeker and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the provincial government go on record requesting that CN and CPR do not proceed with any discontinuance of lines until the report has been tabled, that being the Estey Grain Transportation Report review.

READING AND RECEI VING PETITIONS Rail Line Abandonment Madam Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Madam Speaker: Dispense.

WHEREAS affordable transportation is a critical component of grain production; and

WHEREAS under the Crow rate benefit, Manitoba was the cheapest place on the Prairies from which to ship grain but became the most expensive following the abolishment of the Crow rate; and

WHEREAS the Canada Transportation Act proclaimed on July 1, 1996, gave railways the ability to discontinue and scrap branch lines without public input; and

WHEREAS several lines were targeted immediately by CN for abandonment; and

WHEREAS CN gave notice on May 6, 1998, that the Erwood Subdivision will be discontinued in 1998; and

WHEREAS the loss of this line would severely impact upon the communities of Bowsman and Birch River as well as surrounding communities; and

WHEREAS in 1997, western grain farmers lost millions of dollars due to backlogs and delays by the major railways; and

WHEREAS as a result the federal government set up the Estey Grain Transportation Review which is scheduled to release a report later this year. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the provincial government go on record requesting CN and CPR to not proceed with any discontinuance of lines until that report has been tabled. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Committee of Supply Mr.

Marcel Laurendeau (Chairperson): Madam Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the honourable member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister char ged with the administration of The Civil Service Super annuation Act): I would like to table the 1997 Annual

4444 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 1998 Report for the Manitoba Civil Service Superannuation Board. Introduction of Guests Madam Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public galle:ry where we have this afternoon ninety Grade 5 students from Edward Schreyer School under the direction of Ms. Lorraine Kozussek. This school is loca ted in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Praznik). We also have twenty-five Grade 5 students from Landmark Elemen tary School under the direction of Mr. Russ Dirks and Mr. Tom Koop.

This school is located in the constituency of the honourable member for La Verend rye (Mr. Sveinson). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD City of Winnipeg Amendment Act Community Committees Mr. Gary Doer· (Leader ofthe Opposition): Madam Speaker, a fanner deputy minister under a couple of different pol itical parties stated that one of the few avenues that citizens have access to citizen participation in the decision making of their community, that is the community committees, is given the death knell by the Filmon government.

The City of Winnipeg Act eliminates these community committees in terms of citiz,ens' rights of participation. I would like to ask the Acting Premier: why is this government elim inating a guaranteed right of citizen participation in community committees with their initiatives to go backwards in The City of Winnipeg Act? Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Firstly, I would! like to commend City Council for coming forth with some new directions, new visions as to the scope and the direction that they want to take the civic administration.

It was with that in mind that the Cuff report was initiated, and with that in mind it was a decision by council to forward their recommendations to the province for legisla tive change. The member for Concordia is right when he says that one of the conditions is the eli mination of what they called the RAGs or the Residential Advisory Group committees, but at the same time what it does is it gives the power and the authority back to City Council and the councillors themselves to set up a system of public participation.

It does not take away the right for people to participate in civic administration at the city level. What it does is it gives the council the abili ty to set up their own structure and the procedure that they feel is the best way to have public participation, and it also takes away the prescriptive nature that The City of Winnipeg Act now has in regard to

interpretation by the province. * (13 35) Mr. Doer: Madam Speaker, this government is taking away and elim inating a guaranteed right of citizen participation in the community committees. This Legislature is being asked to el iminate that citizen right and allow that citizen right to be at the whim of City Council, which, ironically, did not even have citizen meetings to deal with the Cuff report itself . Mr.

Kubi from the East Kil donan Transcona Residents Advisory Council says that removal of citizen participation and citizen participation at community committees is not more dem ocratic; it will affect the long-term quality of lif e in our communities. Why is this government working in an antidemocratic way to elim inate the guaranteed right of citizen participation? What kind of leadership are we getting from this government when it takes away the right of citizens to participate? Mr. Reimer: One of the fundamentals of a democratic system is public participation and el ecting people to make decisions.

The structure that is put forth for consideration with the amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act goes even further than the community committees. Community committees were structured in a sense that there was a dictatorial and a prescriptive nature from the provincial government to the civic

June 15 , 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4445 administration of the City of Winnipeg saying that they shall have public participation. We are saying that, in areas where the City of Winnipeg can make the decision as to what type of form and what type of direction they want to go with public meetings, they have that ability to make that decision. They are elected to make those types of decisions. The provincial government should not be prescriptive in nature in trying to dictate exactly how and where they should have public meetings.

If City Council wants to have more public meetings, they have the ability to do that. I should point out, too, that City Council has forwarded me a motion that they are going to keep the status quo regarding the community committees until after a review of The City of Winnipeg Act, and also The City of Winnipeg Act now gives them the ability to form community committees in any way that they feel. Mr. Doer: Well, that should be some consolation for the citizens' rights here in Manitoba.

This minister is telling us in this House that the City of Winnipeg's present council is the organ grinder and he is the monkey in terms of enacting whatever they want. It is a serious issue because delegating the right of how the city is going to treat our boulevards in terms of cutting the lawns is one thing; elim inating the rights of citizens to participate in community committees is

an act and responsibility of this Legisla ture. I would like to ask the Acting Premier: why is he elimi nating the democratic rights that are guaranteed by this Legislature in The City of Winnipeg Act? Why is he delegating that to the whim of City Council, rather than having those rights guaranteed under the act of the Legislature in The City of Winnipeg Act? Surely there is no greater right in The City of Winnipeg Act than the right to citizen participation, which this government is trying to expunge in terms of these amendments. Mr.

Reimer: Madam Speaker, I find it passing strange that the member there from the other side would say that we are taking back the democratic rights of public participation. It is that type of attitude on that side of the House that says that government should be the only way that dictates how people present themselves in public committees. I am saying and this government is saying that the people that are elected within City Council have the right and the responsibility of holding public participation meetings. It is part of The City of Winnipeg Act.

We are expanding that to give them that type of ability, not like the people on the other side who feel that it should be a government fiat and government dictate as to how and where and how many meetings should be done. It is totally against the democratic process. We are giving the people of Winnipeg and the councillors of the City of Winnipeg more ability to make those public changes and the public participation that they want to have. That side of the government wants it dictated by them and them alone. That is not a go, Madam Speaker. City of Winnipeg Amendment Act Withdrawal Ms.

Becky Barrett (We llington): Madam Speaker, speaker after speaker this morning in public hearings on Bill 36 spoke of the lack of community input into the process on the Cuff report and Bill 36, the decrease in democracy that will be as a result of Bill 36, the decrease in accountabilit y and the decrease in citizen participation if Bill 36 goes ahead.

While no city councillor, no mayoralty candidate in 1995 spoke out on this issue at all, it is very clear that this will be a campaign issue on both sides of the pros and cons of Bill 36 this fall in the election campaign. * (1 340) I would like to ask the minister and the government today, in light of the fact that this will be a campaign issue, that people are starting to talk about it, and we need to elect people on the basis of how they feel about this bill and the removal of democracy that it entails, if he will please remove this dreadfully flawed piece of legislation until after the City of Winnipeg elections this fall so we can have the people speak on this issue.

Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Madam Speaker, I, too, was at that committee meeting this morning. It was also mentioned by some of the committee members, and in particular one of the city councillors who supported the idea, that this was brought forth by a decision of council and that council

4446 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 1998 had endorsed the approach that was taken by the Cuff report. In fact, the councillor said that he felt it was proper that it go through the process that we are now before and that the imple mentation proceed. The

interpretation, though, by the members on the other side is that government should have some sort of magical say and control over everything and anything that happens on Broadway. We are saying, no, municipal gov�:rnment has a responsibility as elected officials to make decisions, to be involved with their constituents and to manage in a way that is most appropriate tha:t they are elected for. We are saying that is the way the municipal government should be handled on Main Street. Mayoral Powers Ms.

Becky Banett (Wellington): I would lik e to ask the minister, who talks about democracy being guaranteed and preserved in Bill 36, how there is a guarantee of dt!mocracy when the mayor's powers under Bil1 36 will be larger and bigger and broader than any mayor in any city in Canada and most likely any city in North America. How does that guarantee democracy? Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): The

interpretation and the definition of democracy, I guess, takes on a different meaning when it is interpreted either by the New Democratic opposition or the government in o:ffice right now. We are of the opinion that democracy, in its way of decision making and the powers that should be, should be dele gated to the people who make the decisions. This is one of the reasons why th•! Cuff report and a lot of the other recommendations are acted upon. We do this on a yearly basis. We talk to the City of Winnipeg. They send forth amendments that they feel are adequate in dealing with some of the concerns with City Hall.

Madam Speaker, this is the normal process of trying to accommodate the city in their abili ty to make decisions. Impact on Councillors Ms.

Becky Barr•ett (We llington): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister how he believes representative democracy, which is what we are talking about here, is strengthened when up to half of the city councillo rs or more may not have any input into the real decision-making powers of the City of Winnipeg because they are not appointed to the Executive Policy Committee, because they do not have to be appointed to a standing committee, and on the other side, without the requirement for community committees, they do not have the opportunity necessarily or do not take advantage of lis tening to the citizens.

How is representative democracy strengthened under this biii? Hon. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): The member is hypotheticalizing situations, you know, that a lot of these things are going to happen because of a perceived change in the City Hall. Madam Speaker, the council themselves still have the ability to make those choices as to- Madam Speaker: Order, please. * (1 345) Point of Order Ms.

Barrett: On a point of order, Madam Speaker, I am far from hypotheticalizing; I am carrying the elements of Bill 36 to their logical conclusion, which is the reduction if not the elim ination of democracy in the city of Winnipeg. Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order. Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Yes, Madam Speak er, on the same point of order.

In spite of the circumloquacious effort by the honourable member to accuse the Minister of Urban Affairs of hyp-whatever that was-we will leave that to you to look it up in your Oxford dictionary-there certainly was no point of order. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Thompson, on the same point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Madam Speaker, it is fortunate that there is nothing in

June 15 , 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4447 Be auchesne about abuse of the English language. Certainly the minister may have been guilty of that. I have never heard that word before used, and I do not want to even pronounce it because it certainly is not part of any language that I am aware of. Madam Speaker, I think there was a disagreement of opinion, rather than anything else, on the part of the two members. Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Welli ngton, the honourable member did not have a point. It is clearly a di spute over the facts. *** Mr.

Reimer: Madam Speaker, I believe what I was trying to answer was a question from the member regarding the powers of council. Council will still have the abil ity to make the number of committees and who is going to be serving on them. The chairperson of those committees will have the abil ity to appoint councillors. Now who is appointed is not within our purview. It will happen at City Council, and they will be the decision makers. Misericordia General Hospital Surgical Procedures Mr.

Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, quite rightly and appropriately, many of the supporters of Misericordia Hospital are quite concerned about government plans to close Misericordia Hospital. One of the concerns raised is that, while Misericordia is being closed and the surgical programs are being decanted-which is the new buzzword-the government has introduced a bill to allow surgical services to take place in private clinics. My question to the Minister of Health is: will he indicate whether in fact surgical programs that are moving from Misericordia Hospital will not be going to private clin ics? Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, the member's proposal is correct in that we are not intending for surgical procedures being decanted from the Misericordia Hospital to go to private clinics. That was explained very clearly by the Winnipeg Hospital Authority when they made their presentation, and the member was there in the room at that particular time.

I find it somewhat disagreeable when the member would propose, as we are attempting through this bill to comply with the Canada Health Act-is the member proposing to us as a government that we should ju st elim inate those procedures today that are being done in those private clinics so that we increase waiting lis ts and put more strain on the system? Madam Speaker, obviously we have indicated, in the process of complying with the Canada Heal th Act, we would negotiate with those clinics to continue a certain volume of service to ensure that we do not see anything added to waiting lists. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Speaker, I take it from the minister's response that it was a negative and a no to that response. My question to the minister is therefore: can he explain, since there is a lack of anesthesiologists at Grace Hospital and since there is a lack of beds at Grace Hospital, where are those programs going to go insofar as we are elim inating beds and programs from Misericordia Hospital, and some programs were scheduled to go to Grace? Mr.

Praznik: Madam Speaker, first of all, of the medical beds in the Winnipeg system, we have had as high, I believe, as 280 or 300 of those beds being used by people waiting for personal care home placements. So the addition of 550 additional long-term care beds within Winnipeg and the province will allow for the freeing up of many of those beds for other purposes. Dr. Brian Post! also talked about a proposal to make better use of beds with the swing surgicaVmedical beds, depending on seasonal use, which we know are there.

Madam Speaker, that was discussed in the presentation that I know the member for Kild onan attended. Employment Protection Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Madam Speaker, will the minister, since he has guaranteed today that

4448 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA June 15 , 1998 none of those surgical programs will be going to private, for-profit cli nics and since the minister has said the reason that they are having trouble with employees is because they want to take the opportunity to transfer employees from Mi sericordia to other centres, guarantee today that all the employees who are presently employed in those programs will have a job that will go with them to another hospital or institution, together with that program, and that they will not lose their jobs as a result of the cl osure of Misericordia Hospital? *(13 50) Hon.

Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Madam Speaker, first of all, that is fully our intention, and that is the mandate that we have given to the Winnipeg Hospital Authority. That is why we have made the issue of common employer or the ability to move people in the system a top priority. It is regrettable that we have not had support from the New Democratic Party openly on that issue. In fact, the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Doer) comments, in supporting a variety of positions by the volu nteer boards like St.

Boniface, would work absolutely counter to achieving that kind of labour stability, but that is our intention. The only cave:at that I put on this, Madam Speaker, is that if one procedure or two are done somewhere, and the member gets up and then accuses us of lying and not telling the truth, I would not accept that. Our intention with the private clinics is to maintain that status quo while we are building our system so we do not lose that capacity today, so that we put patients first and ensure that they are able to get procedures on a timely basis. Northern Communities Emergency Airlift Mr.

Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): I have some questions for the: Minister of Northern Affairs. Last week we raised some issues about problems they were having in the North with respect to building materials that were stuck in Thompson. I would like to ask the minister today as to the status of negotiations with the federal governme:nt for the shipment of these goods to Tadoule Lake and other northern communities, including Lac Brochet. Hon.

David Newman (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Madam Speaker, the cost of transporting those materials has been determined, through our investigations, to be approximately $400,000 to $500,000 if done by air now. The cost to truck this material over winter roads is estimated at $25,000 to $50,000.

I am further advised that the price is firm on the housing material, and that housing material could be shipped up within the next nine months if the winter road were permitted to be constructed by the forces of nature before the end of the freeze-up next year, and that would then permit the low costs of transportation to be utilized. This involves, of course, then, a delay within that nine months and chances that natural forces might not prevail in favour. The federal government has indicated that they do not have any additional funds to cover the cost of flying in the material at this time. Mr.

Robinson: Madam Speaker, I have not had an opportunity to read the memorandum of understanding between the provincial government and the federal government on the emergency airlift. I would like to ask the minister whether or not he belie ves that the federal government has lived up to that memorandum of understanding. As well, I would like to ask the minister what he is prepared to do to assist these communities so that they are not penalized any further with higher costs for food, cutbacks and essential supplies for shelter by the federal government. Mr.

New man: Madam Speaker, the role of the provincial government in a situation where the federal government has 1 00 percent responsibili ty for funding this kind of thing, when it involves our aboriginal Manitoba citizens, is to use our resources, abilities, leadership and advocacy skills to try and persuade the federal government, through the Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, to invest as prudently as they can in this kind of situation. We are going to be, in fact, meeting with the federal representatives this afternoon, exercising that sort of role within our government.

My hope is that we can come up with a solu tion, together with them, to empower the minister responsible,

June 15 , 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4449 Minister Jane Stewart federally, to effectively persuade other government funding bodies and departments to come up with the money to make this possible. Mr. Robinson: I would like to ask the minister a final question. We need the Province of Manitoba to be a lead player in dealing with our national government to address these many needed issues that have to be addressed for the good of aboriginal people in the North.

I would like to ask this minister what role he sees this government playing in facil itating this meaningful role with our national government to meet the needs of aboriginal people and northerners in general. Mr. Newman: Madam Speaker, we indeed see a very important role for the Manitoba government to facilitate an effective working relationship with the federal government and the aboriginal peoples of Manitoba to accomplish not only overcoming the short term challenges that are serious to our communities in Manitoba but also the long-term challenges.

We have now a relationship which is based on a comprehensive approach and hopefully a lot more rational and long term thinking directed at solutions in holistic ways for our aboriginal people of Manitoba. This is the first step that we have to climb over, and we are going to work at it dilig ently this afternoon and see what creative solution we can come up with. We will be doing that on a case-by-case basis, and hopefully we will get enough success stories that everyone knows that it works and it pays to work hard at it. * (135 5) City of Winnipeg Amendment Act Mayoral Powers Mr.

Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): My question is for the Minister responsible for Urban Affairs. As the government tries to legislate a very powerful mayor by giving more authorities, my question to the minister is: does he not recognize that, whether it was Steve Juba or others that followed Mr. Juba, it is the personalities and the abilities of the individual that will dictate whether or not we have a strong mayor with a strong vision, that in fact the legislation might not necessarily be necessary, that you cannot legislate a powerful mayor?

Would the Minister of Urban Affairs acknow ledge that you cannot, government cannot legisl ate a powerful mayor? Ron. Jack Reimer (Minister of Urban Affairs): Madam Speaker, I believe the member for Inkster is asking me whether I agree with him that you cannot legislate leadership, and I agree with him. Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister indicate to the House why the government believes it is necessary not only to allow the mayor to cause a tie in a vote but also then to break the tie, in essence, Madam Speaker, giving the mayor two votes? Why is that necessary? Mr. Reimer: The member is right.

This was one of the recommendations that was brought forth by the Cuff report regarding the powers given to the mayor. It is something that mayors did have before, and this was brought in in earlier times when I believe it was Bill Norrie, and I think it was three mayors prior to that also had that power. At that time, the structure of the council and the administrative authorities were different, and this was one of the reasons why the tie breaking vote was allowed to the mayor.

It is brought forth for consideration at this time during the consideration of the bill, and one of the recommen dations that came forth from the Cuff report was the tie-breaking vote. Mr. Lamoureux: I am asking the minister whether or not he or this government supports the fact that the mayor should be allowed to have two votes. Would that then equate to the Premier of the province? Does he get two votes inside cabinet? Does the Prime Minister get two votes inside cabinet? Mr.

Reimer: I must say the member for Inkster is speculating as to what may or may not happen in cabinet, so it is speculation on his part whether there is a vote type of scenario taken in the cabinet chamber. [interjection] Sometimes you get heckled more from your own side than you do from the opposition here. But I will try to attempt to answer the member's question. The tie-breaki!lg vote has been brought up this morning in presentations. There were some excellent presenters brought forth concerns. One of the

4450 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15, 1998 things that a number of the presenters brought forth was the fact that the mayor was given this tie-breaking vote, and it is something that, like with anything that is brought forth for consideration by the committee members, their input, their concerns are taken to note by this government. There is al ways room for consideration as the bill goes through committee stages. Highway Maintenance Stop Sign Replacements Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): On May 30, we had a terribl�� accident near Birch River where three people were killed.

When you have this kind of accident, you start to look for answers. What we find is that a highway stop sign was knocked down but never replaced. I would lik e to ask the Deputy Premier if they would change this policy and ensure that all stop signs that are knocked down are replaced along main market roads, so we do not have the kind of terrible situation we have had where four people lost their lives. Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I thank the member for the question, and I will certainly take it as notice for my coll eague the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Findlay).

I want to assure her and all members of this House and the people of Manitoba that any tragedy like that hits each and every one of us because we can all relate to an incident or a situation of that kind. It is not acceptable, and I will ask for a review of the policy. I am sure that there will be favourable consideration to it. *

(1400) Ms. Wowchuk: Will the Deputy Premier admit that it is because of cutbacks by his government that people's lives are being sacrificed, because, in fact, Madam Speaker, in rural areas we have skeleton Highways crews who do not have the budgets to replace stop signs when they are knocked down? It is this govern ment who has brought in that policy. Mr. Downey: With the greatest of respect, it was this government, Premier Gary Filmon's government and the Progressive Conservative Party that increased the budget to Highways from $80 millio n to a hundred milli on dol lars.

They were the ones who reduced it, not this government. The numbers speak for them selves in every record that this province has. Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, given that this is a very serious issue, I would like to ask the Deputy Premier if he will ensure that local employees who work in the various regions have the abili ty to put up stop signs when they are knocked down, rather than having to go to the regional office to get approval before they can erect a stop sign, because that is what is happening. There is no power with the local workers to do their work. Mr.

Downey: Madam Speaker, first of all, I will make the point- Madam Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Deputy Premier was recognized to respond to the question asked. Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, first of all, it is my understanding that the support to the maintenance program also has increased, and if you check this year particularly over last year, you will find that there has been increased support for maintenance.

Secondly, Madam Speaker, I will also check as to how long this policy has been in place, whether it was a policy that was in place carried over from the previous administration or whether it was a new policy. [interjection] The members want information; I will find out about the basis of this policy and report back. Thirdly, Madam Speaker, it was this government that decentralized government but took government closer to the people so decisions could in fact be made closer to those communities. Point of Order Mr.

Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Beauchesne Citation 417 is very clear that answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate. The member for Swan River asked a very serious question. These are questions being asked by the family of a

June 15 , 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 445 1 constituent of mine. They are very serious, very specific questions aimed at trying to make sure this does not happen again. I would like to ask you to bring the Deputy Premier to order. The people of the family who were affected by these tragic deaths want a straight answer, Madam Speaker, not this kind of irrelevant rhetoric from the Deputy Premier. Madam Speaker: The honourable government House leader, on the same point of order. Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, on the same point of order.

Indeed Beauchesne Citation 417 is very clear, and the honourable minister was dealing with the issues raised by the honourable member for Swan River, extremely serious issues. The minister's answers point out the seriousness with which this government views those types of circumstances and making comparison with the record of the previous NDP administration. There is nothing irrelevant about any of that. All of that was responsive to the questions put by the honourable member for Swan River, so, therefore, the honourable member for Thompson, in my humble opinion, does not have a point of order.

Madam Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Thompson, I believe the honourable Deputy Premier said he would bring the detailed, specific facts back to the Assembly in response to the question posed by the honourable member for Swan River. Therefore, there is no point of order. Fishing Industry Federal Assistance Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, my questions are directed to the Minister of Natural Resources. As the minister is quite aware, in northern Manitoba the crisis in the fishing industry is as severe as it is on the East Coast and the West Coast.

The Chemawawin First Nation, for example, has had to close their fishery for three years. I would like to ask the minister today what kind of representation or lobbying he has done with the federal government in order to enable the fisheries in this province to be eligible for assistance in the new TAGS proposal that is out there, or for any other federal support. Hon.

Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Madam Speaker, last winter, last spring and last summer we made representation to the federal government if they were interested in working with us on perhaps a reduction of some of the quotas through a buy-out process, or whether there was assistance that they were prepared to provide, given that we were receiving and can verify that there have been some proble ms, some considerable problems in certain areas with the ability to earn a living from the fishing operations as has traditionally occurred.

There have been a couple of pil ot projects or one pilot project which I know the member is well aware that this minister has received some briefings on. There has been no positive response from the federal government, in any way, that they want to become involved in any kind of support program. Mr. Lathlin: Madam Speaker, my second question is to the same minister. Will he table any correspondence that he has with the federal government that would indicate to the House that he has dil igently tried to assist the northern fisher men with their fishing crisis and the high unemploy ment? Mr.

Cummings: Yes, Madam Speaker, I can. I do not have it with me at the moment, but I think we should be very clear that there was one community, in particular, that was looking to have the fishery closed, and there was some considerable disagreement within the community about whether or not a viable livelihood could be made fishing and whether or not the fishery was recovering. In that particular case, no action was proposed because the following season seemed to show that the fishery was beginning to recover.

Frankly, my preference is if we can encourage better habitat, we encourage the development of the fishery, and that is a better approach than buying out or eliminating the fishermen from what is their traditional opportunity for livelihood.

4452 LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 98 * (1410 ) Fisher ies Committee Report Release Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Madam Speaker, I would like to ask the minister if he has received any ind ication at all as to when the House of Commons Fi sheries Comm ittee that was touring Manitoba about a month ago-has he received any word as to when they mig ht put out a report and recommendations? Hon. Glen Cummings (Minister of Natural Resources): Probably the member's sources for that inf orma tion are about as good as mine, but I am led to believe that we should be hearing very shortly fr om that committee.

I am not sure what some of the outcomes of that comm ittee mig ht be. There was some feeling among presenters that they did come with a fair bit of prehis tory concerning the fisher y in Manitoba, given that some of the mem bers on that comm ittee had been known to make some very strong statements previously about the future of the inland fishery. Nevertheless, we wil l be awaiting their report and treat it appropriately. Man-Sask Short Line Initiative Government Support Ms.

Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Madam Speaker, CN continues to discontinue rail services in many parts of the province, but the lines that they put up for sale are not viable for short line operators to operate on. Given that CN has indica ted that they are prepared to consiider any proposal on their lines, a group has been f01med in Swan River called the Man Sask Short Li ne Initiative.

I would like to ask the Deputy Premier if his government will stand behind this commit tee when they ask CN to put together a reasonable package consisting of the Irwood, Cowan, and the Preeceville subs so that a viable short line railway can operate in that area and continue to provide service to people in that region. Hon. James Downey (Deputy Premier): Madam Speaker, I will take the specifics of the question as notice, but I can assure her that we are prepared to hear fr om, take a presentation fr om, and consider any proposals that would come to help assist in the area of transportation throughout Manitoba.

One thing, however, that it is not up to the province to do and that is backfi ll a responsibility that the federal government has left to the people of western Canada in an irrespons ible way. Ms. Wowchuk: Madam Speaker, no one is asking the province to backfill. What we are asking this govern ment is if they will work with this committee. In Saskatchewan, the provincial government has recognized the problem and is prepared to put resources and funds behind short line operators.

Is this government prepared to put fina ncial resources to help the Man-Sask Short Line Initiative ensure that they can put a reasonab le package together so that we can continue to have viable railway service in our region of the province? Mr. Downey: Madam Speaker, we have programs available under Rural Development and through the different economic branches of government to support feasibil ity studies to look at that particular capacity, but what we have not done is got into the business of running a railr oad.

So, as I said, we would be most interested in seeing what the proposal would be, to assist in what way we could to have that commun ication li nkage there, but we are not in the business of running a railroad. Helen Betty Osborne Murder Investigation RCMP Report Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsland): It has been some time -No vember 19 71- since Helen Betty Osborne was killed in The Pas by four white men, and in December 19 96 Dwayne Archie Johnst on-only one of the four who were convicted of her mur der-was sentenced of course, and we all know that. In December of 19 96, Mr.

Johnston gave to the RCMP his version of events, and it has been several months now since the RCMP

June 15 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4453 tabled their report to the Attorney General's depart ment. I would like to ask the Min ister of Justice at this time: what is the status of that report that was given by the RCMP to his departm ent? Hon. Vic Toews (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Well, Madam Speaker, I understand that is a very serious issue, and I certainly do not want to make any comments that might jeopardize any opinion or any other aspect of that particular case.

I do recognize that it was a serious situation, and as soon as I am able to share any more inf orma tion with the member, I will do so. Mr. Robinson: The minis ter has to realize that it has been 27 years that the fam ily has been waiting for justice to be done. I would like to ask the min ister when he will be able to report to this Assembly the findings of his department with respect to further charges on the ones that were not charged with the murder in 19 86-87. Mr. Toews: Again, Madam Speaker, that is a decision that the Crown attorneys in con junction with the police would make.

It is always a very serious situation when murder charges are being contemplated in any case. I would hope that anyone who is involved in that kind of deliberation does so on the basis of the evidence and not for any other reason. Madam Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Stephanie Friesen Mrs. Shirley Render (St Vital): On Friday, June 12 , Stephanie Friesen, an 11 -year-old student from Ecole Varennes, and also a member of the school's patrol team was the recipient of the CAA-Governor General's Lif esaving Medal.

The medal was presented by His Honour Li eutenant Governor Yvon Dumont bef ore a full school assembly. Madam Speaker, on October 17 , 19 97, Stephanie and other members of the Ecole Varennes school patrol were at their respective stations. Stephanie was preparing to release some child ren across the pedestrian crosswal k; however, she noted a truck approaching and belie ved that it was not going to be able to stop in time. She was right. She shouted a warning to her partner. Just then the truck struck the rear of the car that had already stopped, forcing this vehicle cl ear across the pedestrian corridor.

However, thanks to Stephanie's quick action, her partner was able to jump to safety. Everyone interviewed by the police agreed that Stephanie's observation, her alertness and quick action undoubtedly saved her partner fr om in juries and possibly a loss of lif e. Madam Speaker, with level-headed young people like Stephanie on patrol, I bel ieve all parents can rest assured that their child ren's safety is in good hands. So, on behalf of all honourab le members, I would like to extend my co ngratulations to Stephanie Friesen. Thank you. India School of Dance, Music and Theatre Ms.

Diane McGifford (Osborne): Madam Speaker, as both the MLA for Osborne and the critic for Culture, Herit age and Citizenship, I was pleased yesterday to attend the 18 th annual recital of the India School of Dance, Music and Theatre held in the Osborne constituency at the Gas Station Theat re. It was an honour to bring greetings fr om the Manitoba Legislative Assembly, particularly from the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and the member for Point Douglas (Mr. Hickes), who loves the recitals but had other respons ibil ities yesterday.

I wish to thank the school's energetic and dedicated executive director, Pam Rebello, for the invitation, and the vice -president, Dr. Muni Mysore, for companionship and inf ormative program notes. The school, which began in 19 80 with 25 students, now boasts, accord ing to yesterday's program , over 12 0 students. The increase in number is a sure sign of the strong South Asian community in Winnipeg, student comm itment to their cultural roots, and the excellent work of the teaching staff.

I must admit that, among the resplendent, dazzling, brill iantly coloured costumes, I in my dowdy black and white felt lik e a poor western

4454 LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 98 cousin, but the warm and gracious welcome soon put me at ease. Parents, grandparents, fam ily members and teachers can be justly proud of the performers, both dancers and musicians. The program incl uded young initia tes, more advanced students and proven performers, as well as dance and music fr om northern and southern India. Scholarships were presented to award -winning students, and long-serving community members were honoured.

As a student of the culture, particularly the culture of the India n subcontinent and particularly the literature of the Indian subcontinent, and as the MLA for a constituency which recently honoured Mahatma Ghand i, including a performance by the India School of Dance, I found the recital educational and moving. Indeed, I recommend this event next year to all MLAs. Thank you. Century Farms Mr. Edward Hdwer (Gimli): This past weekend I had the pleasure of attending a century farm celebration near Sandy Hook.

Leonard and Gladys Ciszewski and their fam ily are carrying on the long-standing agricultural tradition of their pioneering ancestors. The four- member Ci szewski fam ily left Nyrkow, Galicy a, in the spring of 18 98 to embark on a new lif e in Canada. Like countless other immig rants, they were eager to face the challenges of a foreign land, and after several weeks of travel by ship and rail, the Ciszewskis reached Winnipeg and eventually found a suitable home stead in the Sandy Hook area. The living and farming traditions the elder Cis zewskis faced no doubt were radically dif ferent from what they are today.

Inevitably, they encountered a great number of challenges as farmers in what had hitherto been a relatively uninhabited land. It is because of the foresight and determination of such early pioneers as the Ci szewskis that we have a fully developed agricultural community today. I am pleased to see that so many Manitoba farm fam ilies recogniz t� the impor tance of preserving their agriculture heritage. It is very commendable to see fam ilies such as the Ciszewskis maintaining their farms for upcoming generations just as their ancestors left them in their care.

The century farm designation is something that Manitoba farm families hold in great esteem. That sign at the end of their lane means a great deal to fam ily farms, and is an indi cation of the strength and commitment that the people who reside in those yards have towards agriculture in this province. Having establis hed a farm business that has lasted a century is indeed a tremendous accomplishment, and I would like to congratulate the Ci szewskis on achieving this goal. Thank you. * (14 20) Kids Fishing for a Cure Mr.

Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam Speaker, I rise today to draw the attention of members to a unique event held this weekend for young Manitobans with a special challenge. The third annual Kids Fishing for a Cure was held on Saturday, June 13 , at Selkirk Park. This event allows chi ldren diagnosed with cancer a day of fishing on the Red River and raises money for the Manitoba Cancer Treatment and Research Foundation, pediatric care unit. This year, 32 child ren and young adults went fishing with guides who donated their boats, fishing gear and expertise.

The largest fish caught and released was a 38-inch channel catfi sh. Organ izers expect to raise between $1 8,000 and $20,000 fr om dona tions, corporate sponsorsh ips and other fundrai sing activities. All of this money will be used to beat cancer. Madam Speaker, this is a true community success story. I would like to congratulate the founder and chair of the event, John Harber, and his comm ittee memb ers, Bob Check, Lorraine Check, Jim Hyslop, Walter Kostinik, Mark Cram and John Fi dler, as well as the over 12 0 volunteers who worked so hard to ensure the success of this event.

Madam Speaker, this group of dedicated individuals never lost sight of their goal, and that is to help find a

June 15 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4455 cure for cancer. On behalf of all Manitobans, I thank and congratulate them. Thank you. Elementary Classroom Teacher Awards Mr. David Faurschou (Portage Ia Prairie): Madam Speaker, I just want to draw the attention of all honorable members present that I had the very great honour of attending the Li eutenant Governor's residence last Friday. It was the event to honour the elementary school classroom teachers award, and it was the third annual event to be held and hosted by our Li eutenant Governor.

This opportunity is one to recognize the outstanding achievements in the classroom by our elem entary school teachers across the province. Mary Lou Driedger, a Grade 4 teacher at Mitchell elemen tary school in Mitchell, Manitoba, a village represented by our own honourable member for Steinbach (Mr. Driedger), was this year's award winner. I am very pleased that the Li eutenant Governor lends the dignity of his office to the award and honours the elemen tary school teachers and celebrates their most outstanding contributions in the classroom.

I also want to recognize the contributions made by the selection comm ittee and the parents council, as well as the superintendents association, Canada Post and the Royal Bank for their contributions towards the success of this program . It was a very great honour to represent the Minis ter of Education, the Honourable Linda Mcintosh, at this event. I want to say, on behalf of all members here, that the province of Manitoba is indeed grateful to these elem entary school teachers for their dedic ation and commitment to their profession. Thank you. Committee Changes Mr.

George Hickes (Point Douglas): I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr. Santos), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments be amended as fo llows: Radisson (Ms. Cerilli) for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar). Motion agreed to. Madam Speaker: The honourable member for Gimli, with commit tee changes. Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): I move, seconded by the member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Municipal Affairs be amended as follows: the member for Arthur- Virden (Mr. Downey) for the member for River Heights (Mr. Radclif fe), and the member for Pembina (Mr.

Dyck) for the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render) . Motion agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY House Business Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, there mi ght be a disposition to waive private members' hour today. Madam Speaker: Is there unanimous consent of the House to waive private members' hour today? [agreed] Mr. McCrae: This reminds me of the days, Madam Speaker, when John Dief enbaker used to tell this story. They had a proceeding at the beginning of the day in the House of Commons. It was an opportunity for members to move motions, and they had to get leave each day, unanimous consent.

Each day the Speaker would ask if there was unanimous consent. Of course, the Conservatives were in the opposition, and all the Liber al members would say no. So nothing really happened; they got on with Question Period. Well, one day John Dief enbaker was telling this story of a gentlema n walking down a street of Prince Albert saying, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Someone asked him who he was, and he said, well, I am a Li beral on vacation. Having found something other than overwhelming success at comedy, I chose politics, and so here we are.

4456 LEGISLAT IVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 98 I move, seconded by the honourable Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey), tihat Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to her Majesty. * (14 30) Motion agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) HEALTH Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Comm ittee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume the consid eration of the Estimates of the Department of Health. When the commi ttee last sat, unanimous consent had been previously granted for all questions to be asked under one li ne. To remind the comm ittee, it was also previously agreed that staff fr om the Department of Health could answer questions directly during these Estimates. Hon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Health): Mr. Chair, when we adjourned last week, I believe it was the member for Thompson put a very in-depth question, and I do not have my note in fr ont of me.

Perhaps he could just refresh me as to the topic on which he addressed a question, and then I can provide the answer to him. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): I am wondering, given the lack of time, if I could just ask that the min ister respond perhaps in writing. It was in regard to the funding for the Burntwood Regional Health Authority. Since we started a little bit late-we have about 25 mi nutes left in this comm ittee-I do have a couple of other questions, but if the minis ter has some comments he would like to put on the record, no problem. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I will be very brief.

I know we have had exchanges in the House about this particular issue, and I think it is worthy of a bit of explanation.

When we embarked on the regiona lization process, I think our planners in health and those who have looked at this, talked about-as I discovered when I came into being min ister-a funding mechanism that would divide up the health care pie on the basis of population, health factors, risk factors, age, demogra phics, et cetera, and give to each regional health authority a block budget for which they would be I 00 percent respon sible for the purchase of health care services for the citizens in that region, and if those services were purchased in another place, such as the Winnipeg hospital system, et cetera, they would have to pay for those services.

When I became minis ter and after working with the boards, I recognized that may be a very good idea in theory, but one has to have a great deal of development, community development and board development bef ore you could tackle that particular type of issue, that it was far too soon in the process to be able to use that as a means of basis for funding delivery of health services. The other problem, and I say quite frankly to the member for Thompson, is within our min istry because so much of our funding was block funds to institu tions.

I could not tell him, nor my department tell me more aptly, what we were purchasing often, how we were paying for it, were we providing adequate funding for the service. There were many cases where dollars were siph oned or used for other things that I am sure the member and I would not agree are a health priority, but the nature of a very dif fuse governance system and a dif fuse budgeting system had led to that. So what I have done as minis ter is we are building over the next two, three years a budgeting system that will indi cate what services we will be funding in each region.

It will be based upon need in that region. It will be an envelope-funding base as we try to tie dollars directly to services where purchased, and it is not in any way intended to diminish the health needs of specific regions. In fact, I am working with our Treasury Board now, because we have recognized a whole host of inequities in funding across the province, by and large based on the historic development of health care. One that comes to mind is the placement of public health nur ses. When that program was developed, they often developed in communities based on a community, and

June 15 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4457 we know we have had ma jor shifts in population in the province that has not necessarily been accounted for in where service was delivered. So we have found a host of these issues, and I think we have to be able to find out what we are doing now, provide some level of that based on need within communities, build up I think the expertise of our board, their structures, their community involvement, and at some point in the future I can see moving to that system.

But as minis ter-and the member knows this very well-when you get working with organizations, you get working with scenarios, you appreciate sometimes you cannot push more onto people than they are ready with their skills and infor ma tion to handle. We did not have the inf ormation to do that, we did not have the skills, and I think we would have had an even greater problem than we have seen in trying to sort out financing.

So I can assure the memb er that, as we fine tune our budgeting and we develop those skills, the kind of unique health issues around a Burntwood health district that we are learning more about as we get into this issue, we are addressing bit by bit as we get a better handle on expenditures, how money is bein g spent, what are we purchasing and needs of communities. I expect that I will be ha ving some more announcements during the course of this year as we further fine tune our budgeting system.

So I hope I have given him a bit of a snapshot and put in a little bit diff erent context than the exchange we had in Question Period. Mr. Ashton: I will be pursuing this, because I do believe that the funding formula requested by the regional health authority is the only way in which the North is going to be able to deal with the health care needs, particularly areas where we do not have any services currentl y. There is no personal care home, for example, in the entire Burntwood region and what has essentially happened is we were caught in the previous freeze.

People told us at the time, and I had discussions with people in the Department of Health, wait for regional health. So if there is any evolution, I hope the min ister understands that people are a bit fr ustrated. They are hoping it will be a very quick evolution, because issues such as this are crying out for action, and they have been ongoing for years. I also, by the way, would like to indica te my own support for the eff orts of the regional health authority, both the executive director and the board. I think they have already established a fair amount of credibili ty in the community.

I am ref erring here both to staff with the health authority of the board and also some of the new in itiatives of the staff, fo r example, at the clinic which is located in the City Cen tre Mall. I can tell the min ister that the view that we need this funding model is clearly held by everyone at the regional health authority fr om the board through to workers. So when the minis ter received the correspondence he did fr om the acting chair of the board, it was a seriously held opinion and certainly something that deserves action. * (1 450) I want to move on to AIDS Strategy.

Fi rst of all, I would like to indica te to the minis ter that, in terms of the provincial AIDS Strategy, I would certainly encourage the minis ter to consider the addition to the imple menta tion advisory committee of a representative from northern Manitoba. The mi nister will be receiving corre spondence from me supporting the appointment of Catherine Spence who is the co-ordina tor of the Thompson AIDS Project, the northern representative. I want to indica te, by the way, that I had the opportunity to attend a workshop that was held on HIV AIDS this past Frid ay. It was a very excellent presen tation.

Some of the inf orma tion I thought that was presen ted there was inf ormation that should be made available to the committee. I give Catherine and the others who organized the workshop full credit, and I certainly hope that she will be in the position of being on the implem entation committee. She does have direct personal experience in her fam ily wi th AIDS. She has been involved with HIV -AIDS issues for some time and has established quite a fair amount of credibil ity in Thompson and the North on this issue.

What I would like to ask the mini ster, because this came out of discussions I had with people at the workshop, is the status of the provincial strategy. I talked to one individ ual who is reactive on the HIV AIDS issue, pointed, for example, to the program that

4458 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I5 , I9 98 is going on in British Columbia. He indica ted there was $60 milli on being spent in that province. I think that compares to about a milli on and a half here. The provincial AIDS Strategy, which was announced a couple of years ago, is now in the process I guess of being impleme nted. What was striking about the presentation was the fact that we are seeing a real shift away fr om the population that previously was predomi nant, which was gay men, into other groups, particularly HIV drug users.

There are also an inc reasing number of women, although the vast ma jority of suf fe:rers of HIV and AIDS are still men. What was particularly striking was the growth of HIV -AIDS amongst intravenous drug users. What was intere sting, too, what was particularly concerning, was they had inf ormation both fr om Manitoba and Saskatchewan, and seeing some of the clustering that is beginning to occur already in Saskatchewan, where you are getting I 0, II cases of HIV being reported in relatively small communities, and by and large, that is coming from intravenous drug use.

I would like to add to that that there is a great deal of concern. I know in my own community there have been a number of reportt�d cases of heroin use recen tly. There was a heroin overdose, so that kind of drug, which has previously been perhaps associa ted with larger centres and certainly with Vancouver, which is considered I know the gateway for heroin access to North America, is starting to hit Manitoba. There is a real concern that, when you are dealing with this particular population, there is so much greater potential for spread than we have ever seen bef ore.

This comes just at a time when there has been some real progress on HIV-AIDS in the sense that I think there has been a lot of work done, not just by govern ments, by the way . I think within the gay community, for exam ple, there has been a lot of work done there on prevention. There certainly are im proved treatments available. Fewer people are moving fr om HIV into full-blown AIDS ibecause of the im provement in what is available in terms of drugs.

What really concerns me is if you are dealing with intravenous drug use the perce ntage of trar1smission, whether it is an inf ection, is drama tically higher than anything that we have seen bef ore in any population involving transmission through sexual intercourse. It is virtually the equivalent of in jecting anything into one's system , and that is essentially what it is, including HIV. I am wondering what action the min ister is proposing to deal with this. There have been various programs in place, and I had this discussion, by the way, with his predecessor, Don Orchard .

A number of years ago, when I was Health critic, I raised the issue of needle exchanges, and there has been a fair amount of indi cation of how effective that is. It has been put in place in a number of cases. This was at a time when it was very much a pilot project, but what actions is the min ister planning on taking to deal with this dramatic shift in HIV -AIDS inf ection that we are seeing away fr om gay men int<r-and I am not saying it is not a problem in that community, but it is moving much more into drug use and much more into the general population. Mr.

Praznik: A very impor tant area we have had some discussion on before earlier in the Estimates proces s. Part of the dif ficu lty that I faced is we have somew hat lim ited resources in our abil ity within the department to tackle everything that we have to tackle. There is a lot of expertise and abil ity in the AIDS community, for lack of a better term, and the member knows that probably far greater than I would be able to muster within the department.

What we are attempting to do with our provincial AIDS Strategy is, and it does not answer the member's question directly, but the thrust in a sentence or two is to be able to have one central support program or co ordin ation of program s so that someone who is diagnosed with HIV-AIDS can access the whole variety of service that they need through one-window shopping, in essence.

That should include, in my view and the advice I am getting, access to housing projects, social allow ance, if income is there, assistance with disabili ty pension, health needs, medical needs, et cetera, Pharmacare, addiction needs, if that is part of the whole issue. Although we have a number of organizati ons out there who have sort of developed in an ad hoc way-and thank goodness for them, they are fulfilling needs. Bringing them together and be able to have this one-stop window for those who are suffering in this area, I think, goes a long way . That is the thrust.

The advisory board for this, we have asked for nomi nations . The mem ber-I would be glad to entertain

June 15 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4459 his nomination from the north, and I hope to be able to make those appointments by the time we depart fr om this place, relatively shortly, bef ore we depart for the summer. In terms of housing this program , I felt it best, in discussion with my staff, that it would probably be best housed within the Winnipeg long-term and community care program as a provincia l program , but having them, under contract, take on this respons ibility.

Simply, they have much greater experience in working with many of those organizations in terms of the people that they are bringing on board, I think much closer contact to the delivery of service. We have other programs that are province-wide programs that we have asked the Winnipeg Hospital Authority, for example, to run on a province-wide basis. So there is nothing unusual about this.

We also recognize that for many sufferers of HIV AIDS, when it comes to support of housing and other things, there is a tendency to mi grate to Winnipeg because just the sheer size of services that are available here makes it easier. That does not mean that services cannot be or should not be available in other parts of the province, but basically there are logistic issues around this. I see some of those services developing over time, but the logistics of the province are such that particularly many of the leading edge medical treatm ents are more likely to be available in a larger centre.

So we recognize and the community has recognized that Winnipeg still tends to be the ma jor centre for delivery. So we have asked the Winnipeg Hospital Authority to be the host for this program . We will be appointing the advisory process shortly-pardon me, not the Winnipeg Hospital Authority. The Winnipeg Community and Long Term Care Authority is the host for it. We also expect to use them as a conduit for developing whatever type of promotional material or preventative programs because, again, they are working very closely with the community clinics. In fact, those clinics respond to them for funding.

This health authority would be their funding source. So that is the best vehicle as opposed to having a stand-alone program within the min istry. So those are the efforts we are taking, and I appreciate his comments. I also recognize the need to ensure that the advisory comm ittee is representative of other issues outside the province. The North, because of distance again, and particularly in the aboriginal communit y- Thompson is a community that has become a centre for activity in the North and within the northern aboriginal communities.

So this program has to think about that and take that into advice as this issue develops. So I thank the member for his comments. Mr. Ashton: In fact, I will even drop of f the resume, rather than send it through the mail. [interjection] I will mark it here for that purpose, and I would like to thank the minister. I would particularly like to encourage the continuance of development of a strategy in terms of aboriginal people. It is certainly a concern.

I know Albert McLeod fr om the Manitoba aboriginal AIDS task force and others have been working very consistently on this, and there is real concern that there is a great deal of potential for a traum atic spread in the aboriginal population because of some of the factors already mentioned. I would certainly strongly urge that that happen. I want to ask another question about the nursing station at Sapotaweyak Fi rst Nation which I understand is lis ted in the capital projects. I know I was just talking to my col league, the member for Swan River (Ms.

Wowchuk), and there was some concern why it was even listed when the amount that is being approved is only $80,0 00-c ertainly in comparison to other simi lar-sized fac ilities. I would like to raise that question. I know there is some fr ustration in the community, and certainly the member for Swan River did ask me to raise that. I do not know if there is inf orma tion available right now. If not, I would be quite prepared to have it provided in writing at a later date. * (1 500) Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Chair, we had a very lengthy discussion with the member for Swan River on this particular clinic in the early part of Estima tes but, just for the member's informa tion, this is a federal project. It is serving a Fi rst Nation. Because of the geography of that area, the Manitoba Health programs use or will use that clinic for some of our delivery of our program s.

4460 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 98 We agreed to make a financial contribution towards the capital cost wh{m the program moves forward. Our share of the capital cost, we understand through our negotiations with the federal government, will be $80,000, but that is a small percentage of the overall clinic cost. It is a federal project in the federal capital program with Health and Welfare Canada, Medical Services branch. We are not the driving force of that project. We are not the ma jor funders.

We have agreed, in essence, to pay for the use of the space that we will be using in this new fac il ity, to deliver the provincial program s that we: do to neig hbouring communities. I wish I could provide him more inf orm ation, but, as he can appreciate, it is not our program . It is not our project. It is not in our Capital Branch.

We can undertake to make an inquiry of the federal department as to the status of that project, but, again, we are only a small contributor :to it to pay for the space we will need to utilize, for our provincial staff delivering their programs to, I believe, neighbouring communities. Mr. Ashton: I have a whole series of questions I would love to ask on another issue. I will just briefly raise the subject now, and I will perhaps continue it. That is the ongoing problem with physicia n recruitment and retention in rural and northern communities.

I have raised this with th{: minis ter, I know, with the minis ter's predecessor. I am aware of some of the things that have happened. Certainly, in my own area the allocation of four salaried positions, I think, was a very significa nt step. In fact, shortly bef ore the minis ter came in in his current rol e as Minis ter of Health, the previous Minis ter of Health was, I think, very influential on getting that through the system.

It was just a question to my mind of recognizing the shift that is happening out there in terms of physicians, that is, more and more physicia ns not only are willin g to work on salary but are very interested in that. That is particularly the case of newer physicia ns and younger physicians who want a balance of a reasonable practice and a reasonable income and a fam ily lif e.

I think that one of the eleme nts that has been missing in the recruitm ent, quite fr ankly-and this is not a criticism I level at the government; it is a criticism at the local communities-is that far too little attention is paid to the quality of practice and personal lif e for the physi cia n involved. We are, I think, at risk right now in this province of burning out many of our long- standing physicia ns, many newer physicians, and because of the on-call situation in many communities that is very difficult.

We have people who have heavy workloads, and it is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain adequate levels of physician services when you consider that Thompson is, for example, the third largest city, has signi ficant number of amenities, and we have had dif ficulty. I think the mi nister can understand the seriousness of that. We have had problems simi lar to what other areas have had with surgical services. It was not that long ago as the minis ter is quite aware that people were being sent to Winnipeg for surgery, and it created a great deal of fr ustration, worry, anguish, concern.

I talked to a number of people, for example, who had to have appendicitis operations in Winnipeg because of a lack of an on-call physicia n in Thompson. What I would like to get fr om the minis ter is some indi cation, and I realize part of what is happening is going to be the MMA, obviously the negotiations, but I am wondering if there is going to be any movement on dealing with some of these particular issues, in particular whether the min ister has looked at the kind of program that is in place in Saskatchewan, which does provide some lim ited financ ial incentives.

I think fairly signi ficant because what I have noticed talking to physicia ns is that when physicia ns are straight out of medi cal school and have signif icant debts and little cash, it is ama zing what a dif ference a small amount, relative to overall salaries in the way of either direct grant or loans, conditional as it may be, can make in terms of recruitment. This was an issue that came up with me with many of the physicia ns who left Thompson. I actually talked to a number of them, and they said that one of the biggest problems was -even as imm igrant doctors coming over-lack of resources.

So, I would like to ask in a general sen se-and I realize we are short of time, but if the mi ni ster could respond in writing, or perhaps if we could continue this in conc urrence over the next period of time. I would like to really focus in on what is a ma jor concern in rural and northern communities.

June 15 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 446 1 Mr. Praznik: Mr. Chair, I ima gine we only have seconds remaining in this most mome ntous event, the completion of Estimates. I would be delighted to have that discussion in concurrence with the member. Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I am interru pting the proceedings of this

section of the comm ittee of Supply, because the total time allowed for Estima tes cons ideration has now expired. Our Rule 71. (1) provides in part that not more than 240 hours shall be allowed for the consi deration in Commit tee of the Whole of Ways and Means and Supply Resolutions respecting all types of Estimates and of relevant Supply Bi lls. Our Rule 71 .(3) provides that where the time limit has expired, the Chairperson shall forthwith put all remaining questions neces sary to dispose of the matter, and such questions shall not be subject to debate, amendment or adjournment.

I am, therefore, going to call in sequence the questions on the following matters : Resolution 21.1: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $7,66 1 ,600 for Health, Adminis tration and Fi nance, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99. Resolution 21 .2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $24,977,700 for Health, Program Support Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99.

Resolution 21. 3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $73,234, 400 for Health, External Programs and Opera tions, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99. Resolution 21 .4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 77,59 4,400 for Health, Funding to Health Authorities - Community Services, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99.

Resolution 21. 5: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,566,1 22,600 for Health, Health Services Insu rance Fund, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99. * (15 10 ) Resolution 21. 6: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $9,662,800 for Health, Addictions Foundation of Manitoba, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99. Resolution 21. 7: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $66,389,500 for Health, Expenditures Related to Capital, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99.

This now concludes the consid eration of the Estima tes in this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply. I would like to thank the min isters and the critics for their co-opera tion. Commit tee rise. ENABLING APPROPRIATIONS Mr. Cha irperson (Ben Sveinson): Good afternoon. Will the Comm ittee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon, this

section of the Comm ittee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will be considering a number of resolutions. The list of items to be consid ered includes: the Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote; Allowance for Losses and Expenditures Incurred by Crown Corporations and Other Provincial Entities; Internal Reform, Workf orce Adjustment and General Salary Increases; Urban Economic Development Initia tives; Capital expenditures; Legisla tive Assembly; Emergency Expenditures. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): My question was, Mr. Chair, do we have 29 minutes, or how many min utes do we have? Mr.

Chairper son: I am told by our Clerk that indeed it is roughly 29 minutes. Is it the will of the committee to keep the clock running while we consider and pass these various items, given that Supply time will be shortly run out, or did the comm ittee wish to recess in between consid eration of these items? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): Mr. Chairman, I think everybody's expectation was that we would use the next 25 to 29 min utes as effici ently as

4462 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 98 we could, so that would obviate any suggestion of any recesses between votes. I do not think that has been anybody's intention. Mr. Chairperso n: Agreed by the committee? [agreed] Mr. L. Evans: Well, I appreciate the fact that the Min ister of Fi nance (Mr. Stefanson) cannot be here because he did indi cate previously he had to attend a very impor tant federal-prov incial Fin ance min isters' meeting, which we wish him lots of luck and come back with lots of money, reinstating health transf ers, et cetera. We are asking, what is it, $6 billion?

At any rate, so I gather we can ask questions, but we will not necessari ly get any answers. Mr. Chair perso 111: Order, please. If we could now move on in the Estimates, on page 13 3, 26. 1. Canada Manitoba Enabling Vote (

a) Winnipeg Development Agreement (

I) Operating. Mr. L. Evans: Well, I gather, Mr. Chairman, that we can ask questions. The min ister will take them as notice, but do I understand, he will have no answers for us on any of these items? Mr. McCrae: I would suggest that we get the questions asked, and I will leave it to others to judge the quality of the answers given. There was an understanding that these matters would have been disposed of last Thursday when the Min ister of Fin ance (Mr. Stefanson) was here. However, if tht: honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. L.

Evans) asks the questions, I will do my best to answer them, and to the extent that I fall short of comple teness, I have given the undertaking that the Min ister of Fi nance and his staff will review Hansard for today and compile, in writing, the answers for the honourable members. * (14 40) Mr. L. Evans: We do not have too many questions in this area. My colleagues have questions elsewhere, but I do note that thoere is a consi derable drop in the Agreement on Municipal Water Inf rastructure, and I was wondering why there is such a large drop, or is that program coming to an end?

It is dropping fr om $825 mill ion in 19 97-98 to $200 mil lion in 19 98-99, which is a considerable drop in expenditure. Conversely, the Winnipeg Development Agreement has almost doubled. I guess there is material available explaining why both of these phenomena are happening. Why is the Winnipeg Development Agree ment more or less doubled, both on operating and capital, and secondly, why is it that the Partnership Agreement on Municipal Water Infrastructure is taking such a signif icant drop? Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. I just noticed here that the member for Brandon East said $200 milli on. Mr. L.

Evans: Yes. Mr. Chairperso n: Did you mean two? It is $200,000, I believe. Mr. L. Evans: I am sorry, it was $200,000. These are small potatoes. Pardon me. Excuse me-[inter jection] Yes, what is a mill ion, eh? C.D . Howe's famous or inf amous statement that he could not live down many years ago. I am sorry . You are correct, Mr. Chairman. It is $200,000. Okay. Well, the question still stands. These are substantial perc entage changes, and we should get some explanation. So perhaps we can get a note on that from the appropriate mi nis ters.

Simi larly, on the general agreement and promotion of of ficial languages, I am not sure how all this money is going to be spent. We do not have much of an explanation on that either. That would be a very interesting item to get some elaboration on. I am sure there could be a note or something fr om the min ister on that. Mr. McCrae: On their fa ce, the numbers do seem to fluctuate from year to year in the areas of the Winnipeg Development Agreement as well as the Partnership Agreement on Municipal Water Inf rastructure.

Rather than my speculating on what stage projects mig ht be at, whether there are new ones coming on, old ones finishing up and not requiring appropriations and so on, rather than speculating on all those possible answers, I think the questions are quite in order and in line, and I will certainly pass those questions on to the Min ister of Fin ance (Mr. Stef anson) for his attention.

June 15 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4463 Mr. L. Evans: Slipping along to item 3. Justice Initiatives, or can we not do that? Do you want to pass 1. first? Mr. Chairpers on: Is it the will of the comm ittee to just run through the questions on all these areas, or do we want to pass each area as we go? An Honourable Member: We could pass them. Mr. Chairperson: Okay, we will pass each area then as we go. Item 26. 1. Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote (

a) Winnipeg Development Agreement ( 1) Operating $862,80 0-- pass;

(2) Capital $507,000-- pass. Item 26. 1. (

b) Partnership Agreement on Municipal Water Inf rastructure - Capital $200,000-pass. Item 26. 1. (

c) Framework Agreement on Treaty Land Entitlements - Operating $450,0 00- pass. Item 26. 1. (

d) General Agreement on the Promotion of Of ficial Languages - Operating- 1 ,200,00 0-- pass. Resolution 26. 1: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,2 19 ,800 for Enabling Appropriations, Canada-Manitoba Enabling Vote for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99. The next one is page 13 5, item 4. Allowance for Losses. The next one on the list that you have there. An Honourable Member: I am sorry . Number one is all of page 13 3, is it not? Mr. Chai rperson: No. It is item one-[inter jection] Order, please. Mr. L. Evans: Just a clarification.

I was not aware, but you are saying, the minis ter, or someone is saying, that we have passed 2 and 3 on a previous occasion. Item 26.2. Sustainable Development and 3. Justice Initiatives. Those are gone. Tha t is news to me. The question is: why were they separated out? Mr. McCrae: There is a procedure set out in the rules whereby the opposition House leader and the government House leader work out a

schedule for the handling of the various votes of the Estimates of the government. The Sustainable Development Inno vations Fund was the subject of examination by myself and by the honourab le member for Selki rk (Mr. Dewar) as scheduled by House leaders. The same with the other one-what was the other one?-the same as Justice Initiatives. They fo llowed examina tion of the Estimates of the Department of Justice, and it has been the subject of ongoing collaboration between myself and the opposition House leader with respect to the scheduling.

The ones that you see on the list for today-Canada Manitoba Enabling Vote, Allowance for Losses and Expenditures Incurred by Crown Corporations, Internal Reform, Capital Initia tives-are all standing in the name of the Mi nister of Fi nance. They were supposed to have been disposed of last Thursday . The Legisla tive Assembly, I answer for on behalf of the LAMC; and Emer gency Expenditures, the honourab le Minis ter of Em ergency Measures and Government Services (Mr. Pitura) is here, should there be any questions.

The discussion, I understand, is comple ted, and it remains only to pass the Emergency Expenditures one. There is a brief explanation. OTHER APPROPRIATIONS Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Okay, so if we can now move on to page 135, item 27.4 Allowance for Losses and Expenditures Incurred by Crown Corpora tions and Other Provincial Entities. Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I would think that there must be some concern on the part of the government, and certainly on the part of the opposition, for continuing losses by Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd. I assume that is essentially Hecla Island.

I am assuming that is the hotel operation up there. Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): This Crown corporation operates the Gull Harbour Resort and Conf erence Centre as well as the Falcon Lake Golf Course. The province maintains a provision for potential losses related to these operations, which

4464 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 98 recognizes the province's exposure on an outstanding loan guarantee. Mr. L. Evans: I thank the minis ter for that inf orma tion. Would he know where most of the subsidy is going? Is it going to Hecla Island, or is it going to the Falcon Lake golf club? Mr. McCrae: The appropriation for 19 98-99 for the Manitoba Potash Corporation is $250, 000, and that was voted at $1 ,200,.000 last fiscal year. For Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd., it is $525,0 00 this fiscal year, a simil ar amount to that for last fiscal year. Mr. L.

Evans: I was not asking about Manitoba Potash Corporati on. I was asking about the breakdown of Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd. and the $525,000. What proportion, if any, is allocated for the Falcon Lake Golf Course, and how much, therefore, is allocated for Gull Harbour? Mr. McCrae: I will ask the Minis ter of Fin ance (Mr. Stefanson) to provide that inf ormat ion with relation to the Gull Harbour Resort and Conf erence Centre as well as the Falcon Lake Golf Course. Mr. L. Evans: I thank the mi nister for that.

Co uld he also ask the Minister of Fin ance, or whichever min ister is responsible: how long do you expect to continue to subsidize that operation, because at some point I thought this was going to be phased out and that it would be self-sust1 ining and, hopefully, profitable? So the question arises : how long are we going to carry this on? Mr. McCrae: That is more of a policy question that I would be happy to leave fo r the Minis ter of Fin ance. Mr. Chair pers on: Item 27.4.

Manitoba Potash Corporation $250,00 0-pas s; Venture Manitoba Tours Ltd. $525,0 00-pass; Resolution 27.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $775 ,000 for Other Appropriations, Allowance For Losses and Expenditures Incu rred by Crown Corpora tions and Other Prov incial Entities, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March,. 19 99. ENABLING APPROPRIATIONS Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): The next one is page 13 3, item 26.4. Internal Reform, Workforce Adjustment and General Salary Increases. * (1 450) Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr.

Chairman, would the mi nister take as notice, or if he can give the answer now, where can we find material describing and analyzing the internal reform initiatives? Normally, when you deal with the department, you get a departmental review, and I do not know, Mr. Chairman, I seek your guidance. Where would we find this material on this particular item? We are talking about $15 mill ion, and we are talking about various internal reform initia tives and adjustments. So is there a report of some kind describing these initia tives and these changes? If so, we would li ke to get a copy. Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Environment): For the purposes of today's discussion, I ref er the honourable member to the Supplemen tary Inf orma tion for Legi slature Review respecting these appropriations, in this case, Internal Reform, Workf orce Adjustmen t and Gener al Salary Increa ses, tabled by the Mini ster of Fi nance. I do not recall what date he tabled that. I think the honourable member has a copy of it. [interjection] Okay, well, we should be able to make another one available to the honourable member.

The honourable member says it has been wrongf ully removed, and I do not want to be part of that at all. If you look on page 5, with respect to this particular vote, rather than my reading it into the record, the honourable member can have a look at it. If he has further questions, he can ask them or write them down, and we will pass them on to the Minis ter of Fi nance (Mr. Stefanson). Mr. L. Evans: Mr. Chairman, it really does not give us much more inf orm ation, so I wonder if the minis ter could ask the Minis ter of Fi nance (Mr.

Stefanson) if there was some more detailed explanation, some report of what is happening here. I mean there is a very, very brief explanation, but there should be more material, I would think. Departments usually have annual reports, and they go into a lot of detail. We do not have that

June 15 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4465 luxury in this case. So my question is: could we have some more inf orma tion describing what has been happening? Mr. McCrae: I am not sure how the discussion goes with respect to this particular appropriation year in and year out at the Estima tes. I do not know how much time is devoted to it. I dare say, though, the Fina nce min ister would be well equipped to provide more detailed responses to detailed questions should they arise.

Therefore, the opportunity is there at various stages in the concurrence process, but also that inf ormation can be sought, and I am sure the mi nister will be as open as he always is with respect to these matte rs. Mr. L. Evans: There is a ref erence to $12 million for the year 2000 costs, so if there is some kind of a report analyzing or detailing how th .::se monies are being spent. Mr. McCrae: Mr. Chairman, I do not know if there is a written report. The honourable member's experience in this area is far more vast than my own, and he mig ht have a better idea about that.

If such inf ormation exists, these questions are being recorded and will be passed on to the minis ter. Mr. Chai rperson: Item 26.4. Internal Reform, Workf orce Adjustment and General Salary Increase $15 ,000,000-pass. Resolution 26.4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $15 ,000,000 for Enabling Appropriations, Internal Reform, Workf orce Adjustment and General Salary Increa ses, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99. OTHER APPROPRIATIONS Mr. Chair person (Ben Sveinson): The next one is 27.2 Urban Economic Development Initia tives on page 135.

Do we have any questions on that? Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): I gather by looking at the Suppleme ntary Inf ormation there is some kind of a breakdown. This is what our interest was. There is some sort of a breakdown of where this money is being spent on various activities in the city of Winnipeg, including the Convention Centre, Winnipeg 2000, Tourism Winnipeg, et cetera. I imagine, there fore, a lot of informa tion on these specific program s could not be found in various departments, although I am not sure, like Tourism Winnipeg. I imagine the Minis ter of Tourism (Mr.

Downey) would have a lot of inf orm ation and answer questions in that respect. Anyway, I guess, the overall concern of the Legisla ture has to be how effective are these monies being spent? What are we getting? What results are we getting from them? The Winnipeg Convention Centre obviously is another organization which one had hoped would be self -sustai ning but obviously is not and is requiri ng-as the Keystone Centre in Brandon, its counterpart-ongoing subsidy. But that inf orma tion is not available here, although I suspect we get it in Public Accounts, after the fact. Hon.

James McCrae (Minister of Environment): Well, this inf orma tion, some ofthis relates to the Urban Affairs department. As I read, the Supplemen tary Inf orma tion provided under this appropriation is in addition to the finan cial support directly provided to the City of Winnipeg by Manitoba Urban Affairs.

In respect to all this, I am sure the Urban Affairs department is very much a part of the discussions and negotiations leading to support for these various activities like the Convention Cen tre, Winnipeg 2000, Tourism Winnipeg, Winnipeg Green Team, policing, business expansion-all of these dif ferent things listed on page 7 of the Supplemen tary Inf orma tion. There is no point at which questions related to these matters cannot be put and responses made. We all want to make sure that the dollars are spent well and that we are getting what we need for our investment.

The member refers to the Keystone Centre in Br andon with which we are both very fam iliar and attend functions on quite a regular basis. It is true. Even the Keystone Centre, with all the spin-of fs that it creates for our community in Brandon, still operates with some assis tance. For as long as we do that and for as long as we have been doing that, I can speak about the Keystone Centre a little better having been a former board member there. These dollars are well spent in terms of the economic health and vitality and cultural and educational and all these other aspects of lif e in western Manitoba.

They are well spent.

4466 LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June I5 , I9 98 Now, someone has made the decision that money spent on all these other initiatives is also well spent. I am sure the m; inis ter can provide the honourable member with some more background, as well, and I will ask him to do so. Mr. L. Evans: Mr. Chairman, I think, as I li stened to the government House leader, I am reminded of the fact that, one, when it comes to the Keystone Centres or the Winnipeg Convention Centres, these types of organiza tions, I guess one has to measure them over and above and beyond the narrow financial bottom line.

You could make a good case for arguing, you know, what is it doing to the quality of lif e in the community. How many orga111izations are assisted? How many tourism dollars are you bringing into the community? Those are all good questions, and if you want to determine whetht�r a subsidy of a certain amount is justifiable, one has to look at all those other factors obvious ly. But having said that, pass. Mr. Cbairperso111 : Item 27.2 on page I 35, Urban Economic Development Ini tiatives $ I 6, 750, 000-pas s.

Resolution 27.2 : RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $I 6,750,000 for Other Appropriations, Urban Economic Development Ini tiatives, for tht� fiscal year ending the 3 I st day of March, I 999. The next appropriations are Capital In itiatives on page 13 6. Item 27.5 Capital Initiatives. Mr. L. Evans: Well, Mr. Chairman, now we are talking about big dollars-$ 50,000,000 of Capital Initiative. There are so many items here we simply do not have time to discuss all these items.

Not that we are necessari ly opposed to such expenditures; in fact, we mig ht even make a case for increasing the expenditures in some areas such as Hig hways Cons truction or the Innovations Fund. [interjection] Page I3 6. Is that right? Am I correct? Mr. McCrae: I am on page 9 of the Supplem entary Inf orma tion. That corresponds. Mr. L. Evans: We are talking about the same items, and, as I said, we do not necessarily object to these particular expenditures, and, certainly, we do not have time to discuss them. I would only make one obs ervation, and that is the Port of Chur chill Dredging.

I find that it is interesting that the Manitoba government is involved in dredging, because I would have thought that this is a federal expenditure, unless this is federal monies that have come over into this pot that we are spending. Maybe the minis ter, the government House leader, would know that. * (1 500) The Port of Churchi ll Dredging, ports are still federal jurisdiction, and yet we are spending, what is it, $3 mill ion there. Is this because we have federal inf ra structure monies allocated to us to spend in that area? Mr.

McCrae: I do not think the honourable member wants me to speculate on the answer, so I will not. But I remind him all his words are on the record, and they are going to be read caref ully by the Minister of Fin ance (Mr. Stefanson) and responses put together for the honourable member. Mr. L. Evans: Specifically, I wonder if the Minister of Fin ance would provide us with some more inf orm ation on the Dredging, and to what extent-is this purely federal monies that have been transferred into that, or is the Province of Manitoba spending money there as well? Mr. McCrae: Your questions are noted. Mr.

Cha irper son: Item 27.5 Capital In itiatives (

a) Manitoba Innovations Fund $7,000,00 0-pa ss; (

b) Health Equipment $5,000,000-pas s; © Hig hways Construction $5 ,000,000-pa ss; (

d) Ci ty of Winnipeg Res idential Street Repairs $5,000, 000-p ass; (

e) Rural Sewer and Water Supply Projects $4,000, 000-pas s; (

f) Port of Chur chill Dredging $3,0 00,000-p ass; (

g) University of Manitoba Nursing Building $2,400, 000- pass; (

h) Correctional Youth Centres $2, IO O,OOO -pass;

G) Waterway Crossings $I, 500,000-pas s; (

k) Northern Communities Inf rastructure $I ,000, 000-pa ss; (

m) Other $14 ,0 00,000-pa ss. Resolution 27.5 : Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $50,000,000 for Other Appropriations, Capital Ini tiatives, for the fiscal year ending the 3 1s t day of March, 19 99.

June 15 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4467 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Mr. Cha irperson (Ben Sveinson): The next appropriation is on page 9, Legis lative Assembly. Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the min ister a question under Legisla tive Assembly. I have been told that the Legisla tive Assembly does not come under the SHL contract. They can purchase their computers separately. Is that true or not? Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Environment): see Fred Bryans approaching, and he can help me with this response.

As the honourable member for Elmwood would know, the Legislative Assembly Managemen t Commission's decisions and recommendations are reflected in these Estimates, and the question was? Mr. Maloway: I would like to know why the Legis lative Building is not included in the SHL contract. That has been what has been suggested to me. Mr. McCrae: The SHL contract is the contract with the government, not with the Legisla tive Assembly.

The Legis lative Assembly is separate and apart from the government, and its affairs are admin istered by the Legisla tive Assembly Management Commission on which members of the honourable member's caucus take part. Mr. Maloway: But I also understand that the Provincial Auditor's office and the Department of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs are not required to purchase their computers fr om SHL as well. Mr. Cha irperson: Order, please, mi nister and members of the committee. I would ask that the min ister have that answer perhaps put in some form of writing to give to the member.

I am interrupting the proceedings of this

section of the Committ ee of Supply because the total time allowed for Estimates consid eration has now expired. Rule 71. (1) provides, in part, that no more than 240 hours shall be allowed for the consi deration in Committee of the Whole, of Ways and Means, and Supply resolutions respecting all types of Estimates and of relevant supply bills. Rule 71 .(3) provides that where the time limit has expired the Chairpersons shall forthwith put all remaining questions necessary to dis pose of the matter and such questions shall not be subject to debate, amendment or adjournment.

I am therefore going to read the list of resolutions that I will call, and once I have finished reading the list, each resolution will be passed individually without debate, amendment or adjournment. Legis lative Assembly and Emergency Expenditures, Resolution 1.1 : RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $4,343,200 for Legisla tive Assembly, Other Assembly Expenditures, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99.

Resolution 1. 2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,39 8,300 for Legislative Assembly, Office of the Provincial Auditor, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99.

Resolution 1. 3: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,747,300 for the Legisla tive Assembly, Of fice of the Ombudsma n, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99. * (1510 ) Resolution 1. 4: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1,007,500 for the Legis lative Assembly, Office of the Chief Electoral Officer, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of Marc h, 19 99.

Resolution 27.1 : RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 00,000,000, for other Other Appropriations, Emergency Expenditures, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99. Comm ittee rise. * (14 30) AGRICULTURE Mr. Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Would the Commi ttee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Comm ittee of Supply has been dealing

4468 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 98 with the Estima tes of the Departm ent of Agriculture. Would the min ister's staff please enter the Chamber at this time. We are on Resolution 3.6. Policy and Economics (

a) Economics

(1) Salaries and Empl oyee Benefits $1 ,060,900. Ms. Rosano Wow,chuk (Swan River): Mr. Chairman, I would lik e to ask the min ister one question with respect to Crown Ic:md leases. I have a letter which was sent to the min isteJr in February fr om Pine Creek First Nation. Pine Creek Fi rst Nation was attempting to lease some land adjacent to the reserve. They said that when they made their application they were advised that First Nations could not apply to lease Crown land. But they have written to the min ister.

I have since talked to departmental staff, but I would like the min ister's explanation and how he proposes to resolve this matte r. The Pine Creek Fi rst Nation has interest in bison ranching. They have interest in elk ranching, and they are in need of additional land. But the way the policy is written right now, I understand that a Fi rst Nation cannot apply. They must apply as individuals, but I am sure that the min ister must be looking at the situation to see how he proposes to resolve it. I would like his explanation. Hon. Harry Enos (Minister of Agriculture): Mr.

Chair man, the honourable member for Swan River is correct in her assumption with respect to the policy. Bands as such are not eligible under the current criteria for application to access Crown lands. Indiv idual Fi rst Nation members, if they meet the qualifying criteria that govern the selection of individuals eligible for Crown lands use, agricult ural Crown land use, are eligible. I mig ht add, we have a number of Fi rst Nations members who lease agricultural Crown land. Ms.

Wowchuk: So the min ister is indic ating then that if the band owns cattle as a whole, they will not qualify to lease the land, but if it is individual members who lease the land- this is, I would assume, a long-term policy. Would it have anything to do with the scoring of how Crown land is given out to people, or is it just the policy that you ��an only lease as an individual? Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairman, it is always a pleasure to be so formally arm ounced by you in such a forthright and direct manner. It kind of challenges me to respond to the legitimate questions of the honourable members opposite.

Yes, it is a long-standing policy that has been in eff ect-cert ainly my dir ector of all Regional Services advised me it has been in effect for some many years. If the honourable member is suggesting a change in that policy, well, that is a fair question and one that is open for debate. I suspect some of the development of the policy originally has been in the sense that govern ments, both federal and provincial, treat with bands as a group, as a whole, in land entitlement questions, for instance.

The honourable member is well aware that the province and the federal government of Canada are currently in the midst of transf erring many, many thousands, indeed, if not mill ions of acres of land in what we all hope will be a final recognition of the unfulf illed commit ments with respect to land that were made under various treaties with First Nations communities. Those now, in many instances, I think, have reached kind of the final negotiation stage, and they do involve very signifi cant amounts of land.

By and large, the position of Manitoba has been that where possible, we will meet our oblig ation by the transfer of unoccupied Crown lands in these ci rcumstances, and we look to Ottawa to provide in some instances where land is not available. In some of the southern reserves where the availabil ity of unoccupied Crown land is li mited, there is the equiv alent of dollars, money, funds to be provided in lieu of, which the bands then can and in some instances, I am advised, are interested in using to, in fact, purchase private lands to add to their overall landholdings.

But I would suspect that this as a background was the determining factor, that when this policy with respect to accessing agricul ture Crown land was developed, it was deemed to be fair that we treat everybody on an individ ual basis, Fi rst Nations or other aboriginal groups, Metis fa rmers, or the non-Na tive farmers.

June 15 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4469 But I should add, I am advised, that the same thing applies-corpora tions, for instance, farm corporations are not eligible for Crown land leasing. I suspect the same thing would apply to a colony if it were, and most of them are, incorporated as a corporation. Mr. Chairperson: Shall the item pass? The item is accordingly passed. Item 3.6. Policy and Economics (

a) Economics

(2) Other Expenditures $245,1 00-pas s. Item 3.6 .(

b) Boards and Commissions Support Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $373,000. Ms. Wowchuk: We are on 6.(a), are we? Mr. Chairperso n: No, we are on 6.(

b) now. I passed 6.(a). We are moving on 6.(

b) Boards and Commissions Support Services

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $373,000. Ms. Wowc huk: I just want to clarify. I thought we were doing Crown Lands. That is what you were supposed to be passing, was Crown Lands. Mr. Cha irper son: No, Crown Lands passed on Thursday . We were dealing with 6.(

a) Economics

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. That is what I read at the opening of the commit tee meeting. Did the honourable member want to revert back to 6.(a)? Ms. Wowchuk: No, Mr. Chairman. I just missed you passing Crown Lands, and that is why I was still asking a couple of questions on that section, but that is okay. I want to move on. If we could deal with this section, we are on Boards and Commissions. I want to raise with the minister an issue that has been brought to my attention and that being the pricing of milk in rural communities.

Several smaller stores have indica ted that the price of milk is going higher, and these store owners see milk as an essential item and are concerned with what is happening. This came about when this government changed a policy on minimum price of milk.

I would ask the minis ter whether, recognizing the importance of milk as an essential product and taking into conside ration the concerns that have been raised in northern communities, particularly this year because of roads breaking up early, but aside fr om that, whether the minister is giving any reconsideration to bringing back a minimum price for milk. * (1 440) Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, that is an interesting question. Bec ause I am well acquainted with the debate that took place when, in fact, we moved fr om most types, I have to be caref ul of the need for the maintenance of a minimum price.

The honourable member will recall the compla int that was being registered by some retailers, one in particular I can well remember, was that that regulation prevented him fr om dropping the price of milk to the level that he wanted to. It was quite frankly sometimes a difficult regulation to explain to the price-conscious consumer that, it was the business of our government, of any government, to prevent retailers fr om reducing the cost of milk when and, if they chose to, some perhaps using it as a loss leader. You know, that phrase is used in marketing to attract customers to their stores.

But it was that general debate that took place in the late 19 80s, '89, '90, in around that place that led to that revision of policy that removed the requirement for minimum pricing. I suspect that that really is not the issue that the honourable member is dealing with, particularly because of the actions just recently taken by the Milk Control Board and the Manitoba Milk Prices Review Commission which is chaired by Dr. Kraft, which is the agency that from time to time looks and supervises the affairs of the milk industry in the province of Manitoba, has, in fact, ordered price reductions.

Since May 1 or earlier on this year there have been two price reductions implemented by the milk producers, that is the Milk Producers Board of Manitoba, as a result of the recomme ndations of the milk pricing commission headed by Dr. Kraft and a different arrangement that has to do with their pooling arrangement in the western pool. They met, in essence, the Alberta price that brought down their price of milk by a few cents a litre down. I hasten to add, whether or not these savings have been in effect-and that is, of course, a legitimate argument passed on through to the consumers-is

4470 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 15 , 19 98 always another question, but I do know that my milk producers are receiving less today than they were a few months ago. I should indi catt: I was indicating a date. It was since May 1, 19 89 that the commission has stopped setting the minimum wholesale jobber or retail prices in milk, so it is now a practice that has taken place for the last eight or nine years. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Chair man, this year we saw an incr ease in the amount of money that was going to be going into agri-f ood research. I was very pleased to see that increa se.

It is someth ing that we have been asking for, for a long time. With the changes that we are seeing in agricul ture, we have to do more researc h. When I talked to the people from the food-pr ocessing ind ustry, people in the food-processing industry ind icate that Manitoba is not doing their fair share of research into produce research. Quebec does a lot of research.

There is some work being done in Portage Ia Prairie, as I understand it, but what they say is that the Food Development Centre has just become designated as a general centre for research, but we have no specific centres for and no specific research being done for that sector. I would ask the minis ter if he recognizes this as an imp ortant area of production for Manitoba and whether this is an area we could be targetting for more research to be done to ensure that the food processing industry can continue to thrive in Manitoba and not fall behind other provinces. Mr.

Enos: You know, I can recall that that probably has been one of the persistent comm ents or pieces of advice that I have received fr om the honourab le member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) over the last number of years when we discuss Agriculture Estimates. I have always, always indica ted to her that I agreed, in essence, with the point that she was making and putting on the fi;!Cord. It is extremely impor tant to dedicate some ofthe earnings, some of the dollars that the industry makes, back into basic research.

If we want to stay ahead of the game and hopefully in some instances be leaders in the game, then that is absolutely vital and even more so for a province like Manitoba where so much of what we do in food generally is done in competition with the outside world, if not the world, then certainly right here in Canada. So it is with that kind of ongoing support that I have had fr om my official opposition that I am convinced that it was helpful in enabling myself to establish a fairly signif icant agricultural research and development fund known as ARDI.

That is in total with the federal contribution, upwards to $19 milli on of monies that is dedicated for the very purpose that she advocates. I might also indi cate to her that in the main, although we have not carved it in stone, because that is not always possible, we will be looking very favourably to those kinds of pro jects coming forward fr om proponents where they can bring money to the table. We have targeted a general guideline of we hope a 50 percent contribution fr om, say, the Canola Council or the Manitoba Forage Seed Association.

When they want specific research done, they bring some of their money that they now have as a result of check-of f legis lation that has been put in place some time ago, and that dollar is matched by the ARDI fund. So that $19 milli on can, in fact, become signi ficantly more dollars in total research and development that is now being made available to the food, the agricultural industry in Manitoba. Mr. Chairman , I am the first one to acknowledge that this is a new venture under the direction of the chair, Dr. Clay Gilson.

I am certainly hopeful that they will find the appropriate vision to conduct the kind of award, the kind of research pro jects that are being directed toward s them. I am told that they are coming in at a fairly good clip. We have currently had some 131 applications to that newly set up board-that board is only barely four months old--of which 71 already have been approved. The total approved to date out of that fund is some $3.9 milli on. That is very close to $4 milli on.

That is fairly signi ficant activity that is being gene rated this spring, this year, that was not there last year or the year before and the year bef ore that when the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) used to, at this stage of my Estima tes, be telling me that I was not doing enough with respect to research.

June 15 , 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 447 1 So, Mr. Chairman, being that kind of a person who can accept good advice when it is given, I accepted that good advice fr om the honourable member for Swan River, and we are now embarked on wha t I believe and hope to be a very wort hwhile research and develop ment program. It does not have maybe quite the focus that the research dollars in Saskatchewan have, and we have talked about that fr om time to time.

Saskatchewan has done a very creditab le job, an envia ble job, indeed, in focusing on bio technology at the universi ty of Saskatoon, coming together with the private sector and so forth. Our research and our effort will be of its nature a more general, broadly based type of research. But I make no apologies for it. That is the nature of our agriculture, and, quite fr ankly, I think there are some strengths in that. If we can move forward on a very broad fr ont of food production, we may well, at the end of the day, find ourselves being served quite well. Thank you. * (1 450) Ms. Wowcbuk: Mr.

Ch airman, the minis ter is right. Saskatchewan has become very focused on bio technology and is becoming recognized for that. I understand that Quebec is becoming a leader and the centre of research on production, such as various types of vegetables. So they are becoming focused. We were doing more work in centres like Brandon where there is federal research on hog production, and we seem to have lost that.

I think that, although we do have to have general research too, it mig ht be something to consider to become more focused in our research so that Manitoba would become recognized for a particular field of agriculture research that would then attract the kind of money that Saskatchewan has been able to attract to its area. I leave that with the minis ter, and I think that his staff, and hopefully the committee that is working on this that has been appointed, can maybe focus the attention in a particular area. There are lots of opportunities in Manitoba.

I want to ask the min ister a question relating to the Manitoba Rural Adaptation Council and the agriculture fo od research development. It has been suggested by farm groups that the minis ter, when he was setting up this Agri-Food Research and Development Ini tiative, that he did not have to set up another board. There was a board in place with MRAC. These people were prepared to work, and they are comm itted to develop ment in rural Manitoba.

There are federal dollars in it, as well, and I wonder whether the minis ter has given any consi deration to the suggestion that there could have been one board that could have dealt with all of this rather than having two boards, as has been suggested by some farm organizations. Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairman, the answer to the honourab le member's question is that, no, we have not given consider ation to the establ ishmen t of a board. We bel ieve they are two separate enti ties, and as such we are very much concerned, though, that we avoid, wherever possible, duplication of roles.

We have ensured that there is a reasonably close association with

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-64
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 64.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4fa63fd0777da085659d45a0708adb8702a5a8bf

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