Volume XL Wednesday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY _·oF NEWFOUNDLAND Third Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 41 13 May 1987

The House met at 3:00p.m . MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR: RIDEOUT: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. RIDEOUT: Under the authority of the Newfoundland Fish Inspection Act, my department is responsible for the licensing of lobster buyers within the Province. Again this year all lobster buyers 1 licences are issued conditional on buyers paying fishermen 70 per cent of the Canadian dollar equivalent of the Boston wholesale - price. Lobster prices are monitored on a day to day basis by the Fishing Industry Advisory Board.

During the first few weeks of the lobster season, there have been a number of complaints from fishermen that the price received was below the minimum requirement. My department, in conjunction with the Fishing Industry Advisory Board, has monitored the situation and verified that, initially, prices were somewhat below the minimum price requirE!ment. I am aware of the instability and uncertainty of prices during the first week or so of the season and that possible fluctuations in price may occur from t:he time · lobsters are purchased from fishermen to their final marketing, particularly in the Boston market.

I am pleased to not that, based on our latest monitoring, prices now L2155 May 13, 1987 Uol XL paid to fishermen adequately reflect the 70 per cent requirement as reflected in the Boston market price. I strongly urge lobster buyers to take appropriate action, as many did in. previous years, to retroactively adjust the earlier prices where the 70 per cent guideline was not met.

Furthermore, my department wiJ.J. carefully review the buying practices of all lobster buyers during the course of this fishing season and individual buying practices could affect lobster buyers 1 licence eligibility during the renewal process. I am relatively pleased tMith the overall stability in lobster prices to fishermen during the period that government has imposed the 70 per cent base price requirement.

Notwithstanding this consideration, however, it is my hope that lobster prices in future years will be negotiated under the Fishing Industry Collective Bargaining Act as indE!ed most other fish prices are established in 'this Province. I intend to pursue this matter with the Fishermen 1 s Union at an ea1nly opportunity. MR. W. CARTER: Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Twillingate . MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker--:- I thank thE! minister for giving me a copy of his statement before reading it in the House.

It is quite obvious that there is a weakness within the system, and I suggest to you that the weakness is probably in the Fishing Industry Advisory Board. No . 41 R2155

The information we have is that the board is not competent. I do not know why, and maybe it can be explained, but they are not able to keep tabs on the Boston price and consequently our lobster fis herrnen are, in many cases, caught s hart . I would strongly suggest to the minister that maybe he.should take a look at the inner workings of the Advisory Board to see if, in fact, there is need for improvement in their monitoring, the system they employ in finding out prices and that sort of thing.

In his statement the minister said he is urging the ' buyers to take the appropriate action, as in other years, in that maybe fishermen would receive increases retroactively because of the shortcomings of whatever, maybe the advisory board, maybe the minister 1 s ~epartment, I do not know. But certainly I think that is an important aspect of the minister 1 s statement. I would again strongly urge him to take whatevef action he can as minister to ensure that lobster buyers do adjust l:he amount paid· lobster fishermen retroactively to match the current Bos ·ton blue sheet price. Mr.

Speaker, lobsters are becoming a very important commodity in this Province, a very high priced commodity, and sometimes I wonder if maybe we should not be spending more time and maybe paying more attention to finding ways and means of holding lobsters and allowing them to go into the marketplace spaced over a period.

What is happening now is that once the lobster season opens, we find that the fishermen, who are anxious to get going and make a. few dollars, put out their lobster pots and all of a sudden you find a lot of lobsters going into the market and, of course, we all know L2156 May 13, 1987 Vol XL what that does to the price. I arn sure it does have the effect of depressing the prices that they get.

The minister told me, before the House convened, that some effort is being made now by certain lobster buyers to provtde holding pounds where lobsters can indeed be purchased and kept and, as I said, allowed to go into thE! markets in a more s y s tema tic way and spread over a longer period . That, I believe, will have the desired effect of maybe getting more for lobster, and certainly will have the effect of sustaining a much better price for lobster. In his statement the minister also mentioned that maybe the fixing of lobster prices will become the responsibility of the union. I see nothing wrong with that.

Maybe the union, representing as they do the lobster fishermen, as other fis herrnen, would probably be better equipped to come up with a price than t:he Advisory Board would. MR. SPEAKER: · ·order, please! The hon. the mernber 1 s time has elapsed. At this stage I would like to welcome to the Speaker 1 s Gallery Sir Eric Day, the British High Commissioner to Canada, accompanied by Mr. Frank Smith, the Honorary Consul for Britain. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. No. 41 R2156

MR. POWER: When government announced its re-organization of the Province's post-secondary institutions last Summer, an Automotive Technology Programme was identified as one of thE! new programmes to be added to the programme offerings at the Cabot Institute of Applied Arts and Technology. I am pleased to inform han. members that a nE!W three-year Diploma Programme in Automotive Technology will begin at the tabot Institute this September. The programme will emphasize a thorough knowledqe of the advanced technology in the modern automobile. Mr.

Speaker, there is an ever increasing need to ensure that individuals in this Province have access to this type of training in order to enable them to · puruse job prospects in today's highly technical automotive induitry. The introduction of this programme is in accordance with the feedback received from the industry as well as recommendations from the Cabot Institute's Automotive Technology Advisory Committee.

Some of the Automotive provides jobs for Technology training are which the Programme service advisors, manage,rs, district analysts, managers, and motor service service managers, service parts department sales representatives, vehicle mechanics. Mr. Speaker, significant strid1?.S have been made all across the post-secondary education system over the last couple of years.

The introduction of the Automotive Technology Programme is indicative of our ongoing effort to upgrade existing programmes and introduce new programmes designed to bring L2157 May 13, 1987 Vol XL our course offerings more in line with today's labour market demands. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, I reaLize that the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies has been preoccupied by the conseque,nces of his wrong decision, not to listen to the polls and run in St .

John's East federally, but that should not explain his lapSE! in not making available to us the statement today. I have to respond on the basis of what I heard him say; it was a brief statement and I think I got the gist of it. MR. POWER: You did not get a statement? MR. SIMMONS: We do not have one today, no . I got the gist of it, and I say to the minisi:er that we welcome l:he initiative on the new Diploma Programmes and, indeed, we welcome any initiative that broadens the educational opportunities available to young Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. Mr.

Speaker, let rne, my colleagues in Opposition, express which relates on l:hE! a at behalf of official concern least peripherally .to the minisl:er afternoon, and refer to his in respect to in Lewisporte the announcement No. 41 has made this by way of example I recent announcement first year coursE!s and Grand Falls. I R2157

say to him in all kindness that there is a growing concern among educators, particularly those involved directly in vocational education, that policy decisions with very long-term implications are being taken without adequate study, and the Grand Falls and Lewisporte issues are two cases in point. There are quite serious ramifications For that kind of a decision. We would hope that the ramifications are all positive : But that is more a hope than any direct knowledge tha~ is the case.

And only a study, only some direct involvement of the people · who will be affected by way of maybe a White Paper first, I would suggest to the minister, would have been a much better route to go here. We are hearing the most snide motives being attached to the reason for the ·announcement of Lewisporte and Grand Fall 's. A .lot of people in Gander would at least like to have some answers. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member 1 s time has elapsed . MR.

SIMMONS: the what good the In conclusion, I say to minister, do not jeopardize has the potential of being a initiative by giving it connotation of being partisan its nature. in MR. LONG : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John 1 s East. MR. LONG : Thank you, Mr. Speaker. L2158 May 13, 1987 Vol XL I would like to say a few words of appreciation in welcoming th e minister 1 s statement, particularly inasmuch as it is a nE!W programmE ! for the Cabot Instit ute here in St. John 1 s.

We, in this party, have argued l:he importance of the reorganization of the vocational community college system to provide more access outside the city, although we have also raised concerns about the institution that was announced for the Grand Falls area. There is a problem in thE! number of announcements that have be en coming into the House in the last couple of weeks, in that there is virtually nothing for the Capital City of St. John 1 s in the way of municipal works, job development programmes and the University in this city.

There are student leaders from all across this country now putting forward Memorial University as an example of an institution that is facing an incredible crisis; a terrible example to be putting forward when we consider the importance of post-secondary education in this Province. So we welcome this announcement inasmuch as it se ems to represent at last a recognit ion by this government of the importance of having programmes available, especially in post-secondary educat:Lon in the Capital City. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. DR. TWOMEY: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon .. the Minister of Health . DR.

TWOMEY: Thank you, Mr . Speaker, I wish to make a statement today on the current situation in the Province No. 41 R2158

regarding ambulance services. As most hon. members are aware, the President of the Private Ambulance Operators Association has indicated that he and some of his members may be withdrawing services ~n Friday of this week.

To· put this issue into perspective, there are approximately thirty ambulance services in the Province, twenty-eight of these are community based operators, operated by municipalities,_ service clubs and other community organizations; twelve are operated by hos .pi tals; and twenty-four are operated by private operators which is the group represented by the Private Ambulance Operators Association. In October of 1985, the government recei -ved a comprehensive .report on road ambulance services . in the Province . This report was prepared by a study group appointed earlier by government.

All parties that were known to have . an interest- in the ambulance services at that time were included as part of the study group and had an opportunity to contribute to the report. Since the report was received about a year and a half ago, the government has given serious consideration to its recommendations and has taken and continues to take steps to deal with some of the problem areas highlighted in the report. In essence, Mr. Speaker, the recommendations of the report are being used as a guide for the development of ambulance services in our Province.

That is ordinarily the basic thrust of most reports of this type. These L2159 May 13, 1987 Vol XL reports are not inflexible blueprints but a guide for the rational development of a service or a programme. One of the major recommendations of the report was that new legislation governing ambulance services be introduced in the Province.

Recently, I wrote the President of the Private Ambulance Operators Association and advised the Association that it is the intention of government through my department to proceed with the development of legislation to provide for the overall operation of road ambulance services within our Province. The legislation and regulations under such legislation will deal u.d th all facets of ambulance operations including the setting of standards. The process of drafting such legislation will begin in the immediate future.

My department will be seeking the input from hospital, community/volunteer, and private operators within the system in the preparation of this legislation. I acknowledge to the Association that there may well be financial implications arising out of any legislation developed. These implications will be reviewed and presented to my colleagues along with my department 1 s recommendations with respect to ambulance legislation.

In recent years, the Department of Health has been very active in promoting the training of ambulance attendants and, as a result, over 500 people have received training in recent years, mainly through the St. John Ambulance Attendant Training Programme. Government supports training through the St. John No. 41 R2159

Ambulance Programme because that organization is recognized for its expertise in the field of emergency training. They have a long his tory and tradition of training in this area. The Department of Health will continue to .support and encourage further training of ambulance attendants in· the future. The St. John Ambulance personnel travel to strategic locations in the Province where people wishing to be trained can have greater access to their courses. The! Private Ambulance Operators Association's spokesman has made s·erious statements concerning the lack of attendants on ambulance trips.

While all ambulances do not carry attendants on all trips, they do on about 75 per cent of the trips. The qualifications of the attendants depend upon the nature of the illness or -injury of the patient and caR vary from a family member, in the case of somebody with a minor illness who may have to be transported by ambulance for a specific reason, to a phys{cian, in the case of somebody with a serious illness. Ultimately, the physician will decide the type of attendant that is required.

It is generally recognized that, on a number of ambulance trips, patients transported are not critically ill as we would be led to believe. Mr. Speaker, I mentioned earlier the breakdown of ambulance operators in the Province under three categories -community based, hospital based, and private operators. I want to point out to hon. members that government supports all three types of operators financially under separate arrangements. The hospital services are supported through budget subsidies as are L2160 May 13 , 19 8 '7 Vol XL other sectors of the hospital's operation.

The community based ambulance services are supported through a payment per kilometer plus assistance toward replacement of vehicles. The private operators are paid an allowance of $9,000 per year per approved vehicle plus 52 cents per kilometer travelled. In total, the Province spends approximately $4 million a year on road ambulance services. In the recent budget, government announced a 4 per cent increase in the kilometer rate which is reflected in the above rates for private and community operators. Mr.

Speaker, the Private Operal:ors Association spokesman has made a number of serious statements about patients carried in ambulances and the quality of the ambulance services in our Province which are not supported by fact. When people use anecdotal information which is often not substantiated to support their cause, it is difficult to deal with this type of approach except to hope that reasonable and clear thinking people will not give too much credence to these statements. Mr.

Speaker, this government is committed to the ordelrly and thE! progressive development of the ambulance services in our Province, and we will, as I have already stated, be using the recommendations outlined in the Ambulance Report as a guide to the development of future services. We are not going to be pressured into taking actions in this regard by a few people in the ambulanCE! system. Indeed, Mr. Speaker, I want to make it clear· today that it is my understanding that a number of private opelrators, while recognizing that our system is not perfect, may not be prepared to No. 41 R2160

refuse services to the public. The private operators are private business people and, if they choose to withdraw their services, as regrettable as that action is, there is little I can do to force them not to take that action. What we will do, of course, if thay take that action, is implement a contingency plan to .ensure that services are provided to the areas that will be affected by any withdrawal of services. I would hope that the Private Ambulance Operators Association would recognize what is now being done by government and would try and deal with this matter in a more reasonable manner.

My department is in contact with the ambulance operators and. should any of them decide to withdraw their services. I want to assure the House and the people who might live in areas covered . by the operators that we will be implementing a plan to ensure that ambulance services are available to the people of those areas. The bottom line is that these people will not be left at risk if the operators decide to withdraw services from the public. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR.

SIMMONS: First of all, for thE! second timE! in a row we again did not receive a statement beforehand. I am not sure if this is part of a deliberate plan. We heard the L2161 May 13. 19 87 Vol XL essence statement, difficult because essence, further nothing. of the minister 1 s and it was not to hear the essence it had very little apart from being a rationale for doing Now, let us be clear on what WE! are talking about here. We are talking about a report that the minister himself commissioned. It is a report that was done for thE! government. It has been in the government 1 s h·ands for two years .

Let us be clear on what the people are asking for here. They are not asking for more money in their pockets, they are asking for a plan for ambulance services. rhey are as king that the three or four recommendations of the report be adopted, that there be minimum standards. That is not too much to ask for. They are asking for a second trained attendant on those ambulances; and they are asking for some .more funding for ambulance services. Now, thesE!, Mr. Speaker, are all quite reasonable requests. Mr. Speaker, today the minister has indicated to us what the real problem is.

For him, a trained and respected physician. to stand in this House and agree to read that bafflegab that was prepared for him by somebody, that absolute, unadulterated bafflegab, gives us great insight into the kind of clout he has at l:he Cabinet table. That is the problem here. Mr . Speaker. It is not ambulance service as such. it is that Health has no effective voice in Cabinet. And that is why health services are going downhill. that is why we have beds c 1 o s e d i n t hi s Pro v i n c e . That i s the issue, right there. The minister may well be and he is No . 4-1 R2161

a first-rate physician, but he has also demonstrated that he is not necessarily a first-rate Minister of Health. That is why he answers to this House as a Minister of Health. If he cannot do better than this for ambulance service in this Province, he should resign the portfolio and put somebody there who can bring health service at least back to where it was when t hi s mot 1 e y h o s t too k o v e r a few years and began pork-barrelling. You see, Mr. Speaker, this is not a good issue for pork-barrelling and that is why it is getting no. priority from this government.

This government takes two years on a study and wants more time because it is a matter affecting the health and safety, the life and death of people in this Province. What did they do on the Sprung fetish? They only needed six or seven months to shell out $13.5 million on this particular scheme, but if you are talking. about the health of people that is a different issue, that takes two years and then some more. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, hear him say, 1 Some people are not as sick as we are led to believe. 1 Mr.

Speaker, is the minister, through the backdoor, saying what he does not have the courage to say through the front door? Are some people giving him misleading information? Is he saying that the ambulance service is being used beyond times when it should be used? Is he saying that the service is being abused by those operators? If that is what he is saying let him say it, but let him not use those cloaked expressions about, 1 as we would be led to L2162 May 13, 1987 Vol XL believe. 1 Mr. Speaker, he talks, also, about doing things in an orderly fashion.

I say to him, funeral prosessions are orderly, but that does not make them very desirable. But that is where he is headed here in terms of ambulance service, he is planning one great big funeral for the people of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Orderly is not enough! Let us be effective. Le·t us respond to those reasonable requests from the people who operate the ambulance service. I say to hl.m, if therE! is a withdrawal of service, Mr. Speaker, it will be on his hE!ad.

He has had two months and he has fiddl~d with this one, fiddled, fiddled, fiddled, and today he stands Up in the House and rE!ad s that excuse for a statement, that unadulterated bafflegab about why they need more time before they address the health needs, thE! safety concerns of ordinary Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. Mr. Speaker, this is not good enough. This is absolutely shameful! We have heard from that minister again and again those reasoned approaches to every single problem.

I say to him it is going to take more than his rnarvell.ous oratory today to cure thE! pr·oblem that is out there in health services. Mr. Speaker, he is now going to have to put-up or shut-up on this one. He is c:dther going to have to be a Minister of Health worthy of the name. or he is going to have to do the honourable thing and say, Look, I am getting no support from this Cabinet for No. 41 R2162

health. They are to busy running around producing cucumbers, tomatoes, and so on and so forth, producing pie in the sky issues, to be concerned about ambulance services, to be concerned about people in rural Newfoundland who have need to get to a has pi tal in a hurry. And, Mr. Speaker, when they get there, sometimes they are put out in the corridor in beds.

I saw it a few nights ago, where they were out in a corridor in beds waiting to get into a hospital room because the minister, because of his lack of clout in government, in Cabinet, · because there is no effective voice at the Cabinet table for health and health services, has closed down beds so that these people who race in here in a life and death situation are put in the corridor until they can find a bed. · MR. TOBIN : The han. member's time is up, Mr . Speaker. MR. SIMMONS : I know that member hopes my time is up, but I say to him that his time will be up a long time before my time will be up. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! . MR. TOBIN : The groundhog speaks. MR. SIMMONS : The go fer, he talks and talks and says nothing, but what else is new about that particular member? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . SIMMONS: If that me!mber is he subscribes to things that are telling me that the despicable being done to L2163 May 13, 198'7 Uol XL ambulance operators, if that is his that what he is saying by interjections, I will report to the few constitutents who even know what his name is down there in Burin - Placentia West. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

SIMMONS: What would that member know about fact, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: Order! The han. member's time has elapsed. MR . SIMMONS: Thank you very much, Sir. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker, in the minute I have• left I want to put a few more comments in. I think the LE!ader of the Opposition (Mr. Simmons) generated enough heat and energy on it and I would have done the same thing, but without the time I cannot. Just two or three points, Mr. Speaker: I arn . VE!ry disappointed to hear the minister's response to this.

A broken back that is badly treated at an accident site means a person can be paralyzed for the rest of their lives. Surely the cost of handling that for the next fifty ye!ars is much more than thE! small amount required to put the proper training in place. Furthermore, the minister also No. 41 R2163

said that at least 25 per cent of the trips do not have attendants, and even more do not have trained attendants. We know of incidents where individuals unattended in the back of ambulances, although not seriously ill when they started out, ended up geti:tng sick on the ride and throwing up and choked to death as a result of it. Mr. Speaker, we have to that second person tn the ambulance and they have to have the proper training. It is not the kind of investment that is a waste, it is the kind of investment that will save us a fortune in the long run.

And the private ambulance operators are right, they need that, they need a plan, they need dates and they need a timetable they can count on as to when these things will be done. The minister has had the report for a year and a half to two yeC!.rS. It is time to implement it with some solid dates in it, and I think all these problems could be resolved. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! It is· now 3:30 p.m. and Private Members • Day. It is time for Oral Questions, according to our Standing Orders. Unless the han. minister has leave to make a statement, we shall proceed. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: No leave. Oral Questions MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. L2164 May 13, 1987 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health must have anticipated our particular concern for ambulance service because we had decided among ourselves that we would raise this at the top of Question Period. Having heard the minister•s response, I tell my colleagues that I am gotng to change the strategy a b:i.t becauSE! I do not see any point in asking the Minister of Health the question.

It was indicated by his s ta ternent that he is prE!parE!d to get up and read this nonsense prepared for him by somebody. If he was prepared to te!ll us about his concerns for ambulance service, we would ask him t:he question, but we are qoing to ask the Premier, Mr. Speaker, because I am sure he has got some answers as to why_ this report has been -.in the hands of government· for two years. Would he indicate to the House whether the report has yet been dealt with by Cabinet? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: We are dealing uJit:h Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: it, Mr.

A supplementary, the hon. the member for Fortune-Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: After two years, nmu they arE! dealing with the report. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Premier how can he justify allowing the No. 41 R2164

situation. insofar as ambulance service is concerned, to deteriorate to the point where people. not one or two but people generally involved in the ambulance service in this Province, are considering wi thd rawi ng their. services because of a lack of response - that is the stated reason - by government to its own internal report?

How can the Premier justify taking so long a period to come to a determination on this important matter where as in a situation such as the Strung matter, for example, he indicated to the House that it took the government just six or seven months from the t".ime they first heard about it until the time they decided to commit $13:5 million of the taxpayers 1 money? How can he justify such a long delay in what is clearly a life and death issue? MR. SPEAKER: Jhe han. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker.

I can understand the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. because obviously he and his colleagues have not read the budget or have not paid much attention to the budgets over the last few years. The han. the Leader of the Opposition says that we have allowed the ambulance service in Newfoundland to deteriorate. Now, Mr. Speaker, in 1979 $1,018,000 was put into road ambulance service in this Province. Today it is $2,905,000, almost a 200 per cent increase, Mr. Speaker, in the amount of money that has been put into the road ambulance service.

So how can the Leader of the Opposition say a 200 per cent increase is a deterioration? MR. SIMMONS : L2165 May 13. 1987 Vol XL A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han . the Leader of the Opposition . MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, if we take that particular answer at face value, is the Premier saying that those ambulance operators who are en route here to demonstrate their concern are completely out to lunch, that they do not know what they are talking about, that not only have the Opposi U.on not read the budget according to the Premier 1 s intimation, but that maybe other people, including ambulance operators. are not familiar either? Is the Premier saying, Mr. Speaker, that these concerns are not well founded? Is that what he has been saying? Further, Mr.

Speaker, will he give an undertaking to the House, is it. possible that the Premier will arrange to meet with - and it is pointless in having his Ministe~ of Health meet because he has demonstrated why that is pointless - these people when they arrive in town tomorrow to tell them how wrong they are in those baseless concerns they have been exprE!Ssing in the media? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, obviously we must bE! concerned about ambulance service, otherwise we would not have increased the budget by 200 per cent over the last eight years. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker . MR .

SPEAKER : The hon . the member for Bonavista North. No. 41 R216 S

MR. LUSH: I have a question for the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. I wonder if the minister is aware that hydroponic technology has been around longer than the minister. It is not ·a new technology. It has been in the Bonavista North area since 1981, being used successfully by two farmers to grow tomatoes and cucumbers. Both of these farmers have either been discouraged from appl~ing for government assistance or rejected outright by the minister's department. In view of this, Mr.

Speaker, can the minister explain or rationalize why he and his government have ignored and defied the emphasis and thrust of the House Commi s sian, Building on Our Strengths, in sponsoring and subsidizing this greenhouse project by defying and rejecting the recommendations of the Royal Commission on two fronts, firstly, by pursuing the development of a dubious and questionable megaproject and, secondly, Mr. Speaker - MR. SIMMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of Minister of Lands. MR. SIMMS: order, the hon. Forest Resources the and Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne is quite clear with respect to the purpose of Question Period. 11 The question must be brief. A

preamble need not exceed one carefully drawn sentence. A long

preamble on a long question takes an unfair share of time and provokes11 an L2166 May 13, 1987 Vol XL unnecessarily lengthy reply. We have seen members opposite, Mr. Speaker, frequently get up and criticize ministers on this side on their answers being too long. Clearly, the member 1 s ques t:ion :is much, much too long. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I haVE! requested hon. mE!ITJbers on many occasions to try and keep their questions and their answers as short as possible. The hon. the member For Bonavist.a North. MR. LUSH: My question, Mr.

Speaker, l:o thE! minister is why did he and his government reject the recommendations of the Royal Commission by rejecting and dismissing outrightly the proposals and applications made by local farmers, made by farmers in rural Newfoundland? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. R. AYLWARD: Minister and of Rural, Northern Thank you, Mr. Speaker, very much. Mr. Speaker, yes, I arn aware that the hydroponics technology has been available in Newfoundland since 1981.

As a rnati:er of fact, it has been available through a young engineer at the university who has been doing some research on it since 1974. I am well aware that it has been avai1able in the Province since before I was minister. I am more familiar or more aware that it will be No. 41 R2166

available in the Province the member is a member. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . MR . LUSH : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A . supplementary, the hon. member for Bonavista North. MR . LUSH : after the Can the minister tell this House why a particular Rural Development Association in this Province, a Rural Development Association located in one of the largest agricultural areas of this Province, had its proposal rejected by his department, Mr.

Speaker, a proposal that contained an advanced technology of using wood chips instead of electricity to reduce the cost of high electricity in this Provi _nce, yet, Mr . Speaker, they were rejected in spite of the fact that they got a grant of $86,000 from the federal government? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR . LUSH: Now, -why were they dismissed and rejected? MR. SIMMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of Minister of Lands. MR. SIMMS : order, Forest the hon. Resources the and Mr.

Speaker, if the hon . members are going to abuse Question Period then that is their privilege, I guess, if they want to try it. MR. CALLAN : L2167 May 13, _1987 Vol XL You are the one who is abusing it . MR. SIMMS: I am not . I am trying to point: out to hon. members what the rules of the House are. MR. SIMMONS : That is the Speaker's job. MR. FUREY: You are not the Speaker. thrown out of the Chair . MR. SIMMS: They got rid of you. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMS: You were Mr. Speaker, if han. members opposite think that I am trying to delay proceedings, let me just quote Beauchesne for them. MR.

SIMMONS: We can read . MR. SIMMS: Well, the cannot or what he is hon. member obviously he would not be doing doing, Mr. Speaker . MR. SIMMONS : The Speaker can . MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, could you tell the Leader of the Opposition not to be so rude and ignorant when somebody else is standing? MR . SPEAKER : Order, please! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the Question Period, among other things as Your Honour knows, is to seek information, not to provide it, and the hon. member for Bonavista North continues to abuse No. 41 R2167

t~e rules of the House in Question Period. There are only thirty minutes for it. I would suggest the han. members in supplementary questions be asked to put their supplementary questions, not waste the time of the House. MR. SPEAKER: To. that point of order, I have already said that questions and answers should be brief. Particularly, I would like to point out to the han. member that a supplementary question should be brief. The han. the member for Bonavista North. MR.

LUSH: Can the minister tell this House why this proposal from this particular Development Association was so expeditiously and so callously rejected and dismissed, Mr. Speaker? · MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Agricultural Development. MR. R. AYLWARD: Minister of Rural, and Northern Mr. Speaker, that proposal was not . expeditiously dismissed.

I met with the Development Association in question several times on this is sue, and the reason I met with them is because the local people in the area where the Development Association operated asked me to go there and talk to them and see if they could come up with a different proposal for their greenhouse operation. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. L2168 May 13, 1987 Vol XL MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, could the minister tell this House and the people of Newfoundland why he, his department, and his government chose to go this megaroute project when they could haue generated many more jobs and stabilized and enriched the rural economy of this Province by supporting the local farmers in the Province of Newfoundland, in the rural arE!as, who have been engaged in this hydroponic development for four and five years? Why did he choose to go the megaroute, Mr. Speak E!r? Why did he choose to go this route? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Agricultural Development. MR. R.

AYLWARD: Minister and of l~ural, Northern Mr. Speaker, the government of this Province has supported, and will continue to support, the farmers of this Province. We have just signed a $4.8 million foragE! agreement for the farmers of this Province, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R. AYLWARD: We have also, Mr. Speaker, because of the lack of an agricultural agreement in this Province for the past two ye!ars, put $1.5 miJ.J.ion per year into the agricultural industry, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, we are helping the dai1ny industry in the Cormack area by allowing a dairy to set up in a building that was owned by my department, Mr. Speaker, in encouraging them to move out there and set up jobs in the Deer Lake-Cormack area. No. 41 R2168

SOME HON . MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, this department is supporting the farmers of this Province. A quote from a farmer in this Province, Mr. Speaker, who happens to be a constituent of one of. the members opposite, said in a phone call to me, 11 This greenhouse operation is magnificent, a wonderful opportunity to get Newfoundland on the bandwagon and will improve our economy. 11 That is what that farmer thinks, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member for. Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Premier and it is concerning this major project that is presently going to be developed in Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, the Premier stated very clearly his confidence in this project. He has also stated very clearly how competent the Sprung Group is. The question is: If they have so much confidence in them, and the banks have so much confidence in them, why does the Government of Newfoundland have to put up $13.5 million and the Sprung Group put up less than $4 million? MR. FUREY: A good question! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker. L2169 May 13, 198'7 Vol XL MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we are not putting $13.5 million. There is $3.5 million in equity, $1 million of that $3.5 million is in land and the other $2.5 million is in cash. Sprung are putting up $3.5 million cash. Then there is a guaranteed loan, which is not cash out of the gouernment 1 s pocket. Now as the papers have reported, thankfully, and other media in the last number of days, the Sprung Group of Companies have s pE!nt $3 5 million on research in the last ten years on this technology.

And, by the way, as the Opposition tried to pretend yesterday about the gentleman whom they spoke to, Mr. SnellE!n, hE! has since confirmed to us that he did not say that he had a superior technology to Sprung 1 s.. He di~ not say it at all. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD : He called my office this morning to say how he was hoodwinked by the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: He called me this morning to say how he was quoted out of context, quoted wrongly and so on. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. EFFORD: That is what you think .

PREMIER PECKFORD: He said that he did not say that No. 41 R2169

he had a superior technology to the Sprung's, as the Opposition said yesterday, that he is involved in growing romaine lettuce and some other commodities MR. DINN: They are misleading the House . PREMIER PECKFORD: that he has no monopoly upon high technology. He has not come to government yet because he was not ready to come to government yst, and that he knew that when he_ came to government he would get a sympathetic hearing, and that if he had a proposal it would be supported the same as other proposals would be supper ted, Mr. Speaker.

So, you know, the hon. member's question is wrong in the beginning because he is not being factual in the support that we are providing to this company. They have run into a problem in Calgary 'which u.1as not of their own making, when they went on land there that was a former refinery site. Mr. Speaker, may I say for the umpteenth time that this project is business and research and development.

And this government is very, very eager to put, as the House Royal Commission recommended, into place 'joint venture equity infusion into new technological advances to help this Province have a multifaceted', as they said, •multi-sectored, balance approach to the development of our future. 1 We are proud of it. We are doing it right, and we are doing it for blueberry farmers in Bonaui s ta North, providing them with money . The han. member opposite was talking about a proposal by the Development Association.

How much money have L2170 May 13, 1987 Vol XL we put into Bonauista North on blueberry development over the last ten years, Mr. Speaker? Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions. WE! are doing it all over the agricultural spectrum in rural Newfoundland or wherevC:!r it makes sense, and we will continue to do it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member For Port de Graue. MR. EFFORD: The Premier is saying because thE! Sprung Group got in trouble out in Alberta we are going to bail them out. PREMIER PECKFORD : No, I am not. MR.

EFFORD: That is what you just said. SOME HON. MEMBERS: ­ Hear, hear! MR. EFFORD: And he also· said a $'7. 5 ndllion guaranteed loan against $500,000 that they are guaranteeing. That is seven times as much as we arE! guaranteeing. My question is to the Premier, Mr . Speaker. If this com pany SE!CUred monies from a bank, there rnus t have been a study done on the sale of their produce. Can the Premier indicate if there was a study done on exactly what the market cost would be of the products that they will produce? No. 41 R2170

MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Unquestionably! MR. EFFORD: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR~ SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the han . the member for Port de Graue. MR. EFFORD: Would the Premier, Mr. Speaker, table that report immediately on the cost of the produce to the Newfoundland people and for export? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: As a matter of fact, Mr. the reports show that the are going to be · cheaper MR. TULK: No, they are not . MR. PECKFORD: than the comparable that are now brought in mainland and other places. SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Table it! Table it! MR. PECKFORD: Speaker, products products from the As I indicated to the members of the Opposition over the last number of days, as soon as all the legal agreements are signed and so on we will table them in this House. MR . EFFORD : In a few weeks 1 time is no good! PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we were elected to gouern, not to report to the hon. member. L2171 Ma .Y 13, 1987 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD : Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

I would like to direct my question to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. I would like to ask the minister ·: What were th E! recommendations of his department 1 s officials to him and to the Cabinet as to the prospects for such a development by the Sprung Group, and . if he accepted their recommendations or did he turn down their recommendations? MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. R. AYLWARD : Minister and Thank you, Mr. Speaker. of Rural, NorthE!rn Mr.

Speaker, my staff, when reviewing this project, had concerns about production levels and marketing of the product. What we insisted on as a government to satisfy these concerns was that lighting systems be · put into this complex so that production levels would stay the same. Letters of intent, Mr. Speaker, were shown to us from major supermarket chains across this country, that they would buy the excess of what we do not market in this Province. MR. K. AYLWARD : A supplementary, Mr . Speaker . No. 41 R2171

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Stephenville. the MR. K. AYLWARD: Could the minister explain why he decided to tell his officials not to answer any questions that the press were as king about their recommendations, why he told them to 'Be quiet, keep your mouth shut, because we do not know how we are going to handle this issue in the press'? Could he tell us why he put the gag order on expert officials in his department whom_ he depends on all year round? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. R. AYLWARD: Minister and of Rural, Northern Mr.

Speaker, the onE! incident that was reported had my staff misquoted or misinterpreted. The actual case was that before this was announced last Friday this gentleman in my department was getting calls from the media and he phoned me and as ked me what he should do. I asked him if he would rather I handled it and he said he certain·ly would. MR. K. AYLWARD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, hE! handled it so well! He is handling is so well! Did the minister and Cabinet overrule his own officials on this thing or not?

Was it himself or the Premier's Office or the President of Treasury Board (Mr. Windsor), who decided to overrule his officials and not put it in rural Newfoundland but bring it L2172 May 13, 1987 Uol XL into St. John's? Could he tell us if he overruled his own people? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR. R. AYLWARD: Minister and of Rural, Northern Mr. Speaker, I just •~nswered thE! question of the hon. member. The concerns that were given to me were addressed by Cabinet. That is all I can say to that question, which is a repeat of the first question, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor -· Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, rny question is for the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Norther Development as well. I just say that Mr. Sprung, in defend1ng his project, pointed out the reason why he selected Newfoundland over other provinces was what he saw as an unlimited supply of cheap power. Less than a month or so ago Abitibi-Pr1ce was looking at closing down their mill because, number one, they did not have the water capacity to generate electricity. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Would the hon. member pose his question? MR.

FLIGHT: Number two, Hydro was not in a position to provide the electricity that they would have needed. So, would the minister tell the House where this No. 41 R2172

unlimited, cheap supply of electricity that Mr. Sprung is talking about is in Newfoundland? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER: The hon. the Agr-icultural Development. MR . R. AYLWARD: Minister and of Rural, Northern Mr. Speaker, that is not a very hard question to answer. If the hon. gentleman was thinking at all, what Mr. Sprung said when he addressed that question was that he saw unlimited supplies of power in Labrador and he would like not only to build one facility in this Province but he is looking into the future for more facilities. MR. FLIGHT : A supplementary, Mr .. Spea~er . MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor Buchans . MR. FLIGHT : Mr . Speaker, my understanding and the general public's understanding is that the Sprung project is going to be put in Mount Pearl, and the unlimited supply of Labrador power will not be available to him for the next six or seven months, I would not think. So, I would ask the minister whether or not Mr. Sprung has requested subsidized electrical power from this Province? Has he requested an electrical subsidy? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Agricultural Development. MR . R. AYLWARD : Minister and L2173 May 13, 1987 of Rural, Northern Uol XL Mr.

Speaker, first of all let me clea.r up one misconception that the hon. member has . SOME HON. MEMBERS: One? MR. R. AYLWARD: One to start off with. This project is going to be built in the St. Iohn's Metropolitan Area Board's jurisdiction as a municipality, not in Mount Pearl. It is going to bE! built in the a~ricultural zone on land that was marginal agricultural land, which is good to promote the agricultural industry in this Province. And it is go'ing to be built in the district of Kilbride, which I am very, very proud of. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R. ·AYLWARD : Mr.

Speaker, the power requir,~d for this project is availablE! and will be supplied. There is no subsidy, if I can clear that up. The hon. member had it in writing yesterday, so they do not know how to read, obviously. There is no subsidy and there is not going to be a subsidy on electricity. MR. FLIGHT : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary . MR. FLIGHT: Then would the ministE!r tell us, while Mr.

Sprung is waiting for his unlimited, cheap supply of power from Labrador, where the hydro power is going to come from, recognizing the shortage of hydro power in this Province, recognizing what Newfoundland Hydro has stated? Now will the minister tell us where Mr. Sprung No. 41 R2173

is going to get the unlimited, cheap supply of electricity while he is waiting for Labrador power? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Agr-icultural Development. MR. R. AYLWARD: Minister and of Rural, Northern Mr. Speaker, the same question again. When the han. members get answers to questions they cannot think of another question, so they keep asking the same one, as has happened twice on this occasion. Mr. Speaker, the Sprung Corporation has dealt with Hydro and Light and Power and they have a supply of power for this operation.

The unlimited supply of electricity that they are talking about is in Labrador today. If they get this one working they look forward to building more greenhouse operations such as this one in our Province. Now that is not too hard to understand. And if there is unlimited power in the Churchill Falls /Goose Bay area, why wou1d they not consider those areas? MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development as well.

A couple of days ago the Premier talked about recommendations out of the House Royal Commission Report and I want to table, Mr. Speaker, twenty-nine L2174 May 13, 1987 Vol XL recommendations here. out of that same House Report, which talk about the development of rural Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. CALLAN: Let me ask the Minister responsible for the Department of RAND, Mr.

Speaker, why was it the minister abandoned these at least twenty-nine recommendatins that I referred to and there are others, which talk about developing the rural areas of this ProvinCE!, and abandon the central theme of that report, the theme being, of course, to develop the Province, in co-ordination with small business and local entrepreneurs and the rural areas of this Province, and to expand this Province and to encourage local industry?

Why is it that the minister abandoned rural Newfoundland and decided to accept this proposal from Calgary, which is costing the taxpayers $13.5 million and will be placed in Mount Pearl, in the district of Kilbride? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Agricultural Development. MR. R. AYLWARD: Minister and of Rural, Northern It will not be in Mount Pearl, Mr. Speaker. Last week, or during Easter week, I .announc1:;!d $1.3 million worth of programmes for rural Newfoundland out of my department, which are separate from the regular progr~arnmes in my department.

In coordination, Career Development and my department announced $1.3 million for 340 jobs. Mr. Speaker, besides that, what we are doing? A statement that I would liked to No. 41 R2174

have read out today but I will just mention now, indicates that last year 220 applications through the Rural Development Authority Loan Board provided $4,479,350 for rural Newfoundland. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R. AYLWARD : Two hundred full-time jobs and 339 part-time jobs were created, while maintaining 256 full-time jobs and 1,242 part-time jobs. Mr. Speaker, that is what this department ~s doing in rural Newfoundland. This programme, along with our programme through Career Development this year, will put, I would estimate, some $9 million into rural Newfoundland, Mr.

Speaker, just between my loan programme and Career Development, just those two alone. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. FENWICK: Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Menihek . MR. FENWICK: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . I was going to ask another question on the greenhouse but I fi~ured that everybody is laughing at the minister now, anyway, so there is not much point in ridiculing him further. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK : L2175 May 13, 1987 Vol XL My question is for the Premier .

The Leader of the Opposition, thE! former Leader of the Opposition, the Premier and myself have all condemned the upcoming practice of paying the new Leader of the Opposition, after the next convention, a subvention or a subsidy on his salary of an undetermined amount. WE! feE!l, as the Premier does,· that this is unacceptable since we do not know where the money is coming from and we do not know how much it is.

My question to the Premier is thts: Since if we had an E1ection Expenses Act or an Elections Act which had full disclosure provisions in it, we would know how much Clyde Wells is rE!ceiving and where the money is coming from. Will the Premier promise that he will implement - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FENWICK: I am sorry, Mr. Speaker . It is a question of speaking over the Yahoos on the left of me.

Will the Premier commit himself to bringing in an Elections Act w:ith fulJ. disclosure provisions over the next couple of months so that we will know who is buying off the new Leader of the Opposition? MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, first of all I have to address the hon. member's

preamble, and it is this: I take exception to the hon. member trying to characterize a minister of this administration the way the hon. member did. It just so No. 41 R2175

happens, as everybody in this House knows, and the people in the galleries who know anything about the Minister of Rural, Agriculture and Northern Development, that he is one of the most decent, honourable and committed Newfoundlanders to rural Newfoundland that .ever went in that department. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: How easily hon. members opposite. demean 320 jobs in rural Newfoundland when every day they are talking about the unemployment rate in Newfoundland.

How they themselves demean rural Newfoundland and attack the minister her~ who just indicated over $9 million went to rural Newfoundland, and yet we are not supposed to out and create another 150 jobs for Newfoundlanders. This is a government for all Newfoundland, rural Newfoundland, and Kilbride, Mount Pearl, St. John's, Corner Brook and Labrador West, and I take exception to the hon. member, in his sanctimonious way on CBC and in this House, to on the one hand condemn us for unemployment and on the other hand demean 328 jobs in rural Newfoundland, and then go on to say that the hon. gentleman is no good.

I will not dignify the hon. member to answer the other part of his question. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. This is Private Members' Day. L2176 May 13, 1987 Vol XL Last day debate was adjourned by the hon. member for Stephenville, who has twenty minutes left. The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again I rise to speak on the Private Members' Resolution which was so ably put by my colleag.UE!, the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush).

I feel the resolution has many significant points whtch should be considered by the provincial government; they s hot~ld undertake to take these initiatives which my colleague has spoken so well about and has brought to the attention oF members of the House of Assembly. It is my feeling that governiTIE!nt has not looked at the problems facing this Province in thE! prope!r manner, they have not 'incorporab:!d the proper policies. It is about time they got around to dealing with the biggest problem we all· face, our high unemployment rate. Mr.

Speaker, I was looking at the recent statist-ics for the West Coast of this Provinc~e and it is up around 36 per cent. That is the figure that was 91iven in thE! newspapers, but it is not the rE!al figure. It is a shocking, shocking figure to have to comprehend in this country of ours. The West Coast of this Province is being obliterated, thE! young people are lt1aving in droves because they do not have a prayer of getting a job, going away to big Ontario to try to find employment.

We see a government that does not mind taking care of itself, but when it comes to dealing with this situation, which has been in existence since they have been the government and which No. 41 R21'76

has gotten progressively worse over. the last five or six years, we see a lack of action. You can welcome new initiatives, Mr. Speaker, and you can say, 'Yes, that is a good job. That is a good start', but what you have to look at is the overall impact of. what you do. You can say I am going to throw $500,000 over here at this programme or $500,000 over there at that, but when at the end of the day you have 36 per cent unemployment in one area of this Province, your job is not done and you can never be content with it, you should be working harder to do something about it.

When I look at the lack of action that has been taken to address the problem it makes it very difficult to s~pport any initiatives this government takes. They have been in power now a long ti~e. This Peckford Administration has been here for eight years and it is about time the people of this Province began to take a good, hard look at what is being accomplished. It is about time we all sat down and said, Let us have a good, hard look, let us get the report card out.

If you look at the trend of unemployment in this Province you wiJ.l see that it did not go down, you will see it has remained consistently high, and has gone even higher in certain parts of the Province. It is a dismal situation. It is a situation where we have the Premier of the Province getting up and saying, 'We are doing this and we are doing that . We are not to blame. The feds are to blame. They are treating us bad. They are doing this and they are doing that .' Two short years ago it was L2177 May 13, 1987 Vol XL co-operation and consul tat ion, Mr.

Speaker, and 'have not will be no more and it will not be a problem.' Well, I have to tell you they have given up on that one. They are on their own again, with their own employment programme for $12 million, while they are giving $13 million to somebody from outside the Province. I have real problems with their intention of dealing with the unemployment problem in this Province. It is about time they got down to serious business. It looks like they are not going to bother with it, Mr. Speaker. They are now looking for another issue to call an E!lecU .on on. That is what they want to do, Mr.

Speaker, every two years or so. WelL I tell you, there is 40 pe!r cent unemployment amongst young people in this Province. In somE! areas on the West Coast it is '75 per cent. People are leaving this Province in droves, and these people on the other side of the House are saying, 'Well, boy, we are doing this and we are doing that. . You have no rtght to question what we do.' Well, it is about time people began questioning what this government is doing. Because we are not going to have any young people left in this Province in another four or five years. We do not have a lot now.

Population figures released just a while ago showed that there uJas a decrease in the population of this Province over the last five years. Well, way to go government! We need a way to bring people in and a way to keep them here. We have had a population drain in this Province in the last four or five years of this administration. That is unbelievable! And they get up and No. 41 R2177

talk about doing and created. the good job they are the jobs they have Two weeks ago we saw 2,100 jobs advertised in the newspaper, paid for by government with taxpayers 1 money, 2,100 jobs they created. Well, way to go, boys! Way to got But you have a long way to go yet. · A few years ago we heard the rhetoric of this Premier concerning 40,000 jobs. We have an unemployment rate that has gone up consistently and the do not· want to accept responsibility for it. Then the Premier gets up and talks about, Well, we are the government. Do not tell us what to do.

Well, he has had eight years of doing what he is supposed to do and you can see what the results have been. It is unbelievable that they can get up and take credit and have-the gall to advertise the fact that they have created 2,100 jobs in this Province. The gall! I mean, to spend your money. Why do they not put it in an employment programme, the one they had to start on their own because they could not agree with the federal government they helped elect, by the way, in this co u n try . Two y ears ago -if y o u did not see the quotes and the headlines you would not believe it -it was, 1 Come on, boy.

Have not will be no more. 1 1 Brian Mulroney is a nice guy' . Well, it is not that way any more. They are on their own. They hi.we $12 million in an employment programme that the Department of Career Development and Advanced Studies is putting out, and they are giving $13 million to some group from outside the Province. And when we ask questions about it, they look at us and say, 1 We do not know what they are getting on L2178 May 13, 1987 Uol XL with. 1 MR. FUREY: (Inaudible). MR. K. AYLWARD: Well, what can you SclY. I mean, it is incomprehensible.

Why would the Opposition ask questions of this Premier who has such a great record of employment creation Hibernia, the oil, the great saviour of how everything is going to go. Way to go! Way to go! We have everything on the move. I do not know why people are not coming down here in droves and buying houses and waiting for~ this great job creation programme to take over. Well, it is about timE! thE! people started looktng at l:he report card, Mr. Speaker. Here they are talking about calling another election. They do not want to govern .the Province, Mr.

Speaker. 1Give rne three weeks and as soon as I get pE!OplE! thinking I am doing a decent job, let us go for it. 1 Three we(~ks every five years, or every three and a half years is not the way to go, Mr. Speaker, when you a1n1:! elected to govern this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: You are nervous today. MR. K. AYLWARD: I am not nervous, my son. Come on with the election. At least the people of the Province u.Jill haVE! an option. I will tell you I am sick and tired of hearing - MR. FUREY: 1And have not will be no more. 1 MR. K. AYLWARD: -1 This Opposition do not ask questions. What are· you guys doing over there?

Why are you not asking questions about what we are No. 41 R2178

doing? You know, our job creation is so good 1 I have seen people my age having to leave this Province for too long, or staying away, not coming back. And there is no way you are going to get them back with the way this government is going . They can talk all they want about how they are dealing with the problems. I heard last week that there · will be some layoffs in Social Services, possibly, and layoffs in different departments, and they talk about dealing with the problems, they talk about all the initiatives they are taking.

The thing is, at the end of the day you have to look at what you have done and where you are, and you have to decide where you are going. We have to ask ourselves, Are we going to keep believing this gentleman? this gentleman who, for a few years ag<;>, by the way, I thought was going to be okay. I thought he was serious about trying to tackle the problems of this Province. I have a situation out in Stephenville where they were trying to get a Sea Cadet Base for this Province. Not for Stephenville, for the Province.

However, members of the other side decided, becauSE! a Liberal member brought up the idea, or they can associate it with him, 1 We are not going to bother to push it. It is in our budget that we need defence spending, but we are not going to bother to push it . We are not going to have a meeting. We are not going to have a press conference to announce that we are going after it. We do not want to do that, because, you see, it might give credit to somebody who is not with this government and we do not want to do that. It is a real problem.

We do not want to L2179 May 13, 1987 Vol XL dothat . 1 This is when I see that there has to be a change of government: when I see · these people getting on with this type of stuff and talking about dealing with the unemployment problem when in Stephenville, on the West Coast, I have to deal with young people coming to me asking for help to get a ticket to Toronto. And that is when I get tired of seeing t:he creation of 2, 100 jobs advertise:1d in the newspapers.

And when you ask the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies, and the Minister of Finance, and the Minister of Public Works who paid for it, they do not know. 1 We do not know where the money came from to pay for it. We do not know how much it cost. We could have done something else with the money, but we decided that we are the government and we have to tell you what a good job we are doing. 1 Well, I have to tell you that if they are going to advertise creating 2,100 jobs, they should also print the unemployment rate in this Province.

They should show what they have done, because unemployment and how it is dealt with is a good factor in determining whether an administration is good, bad or indifferent. People talk about Joey Smallwood. I was born in 1960. The man was Premier for twenty-three years but when he left in 1972, when they had to shove him out, the unemployment rate in Newfoundland was 9 per cent . At one time he was able to get on TV and say there was hardly any unemployment in Newfoundland . Well, I administration No. 41 challenge to one day this get up R2179

and try to say the same thing, if one day we will ever see it again. The way we are we are never going to have a prayer of seeing that again. So when they talk about the past bad LibE!rals, they might have made some mistakes, Mr. Speaker, I was not around then, but they might have made some mistakes and God knows a future Liber·al Government might make some too, or whatever government, but at least they dealt with the unemployment rate of the Province, the'y dealt with having people doing meaingful work in this Province. That was dealt· with by the administration.

We had problems, no daub t about it, but at the end of the day you could sit down and you could look around the Province and in certain areas you could say, people are working. They are doing something. They have ideas, they are coming to us, we are. bringing in investment, we are dealing with the problem, we are 'tackling the problem, Mr. Speaker. At least then we could do that, at least then they could look at that. It appears that this government has decided that political games are the way to go. You know, if it is not our idea, we are not going to deal with this.

We will get around to it whE!n there is an election coming around. Let us see if we can drop the unemployment rate three or four percentage points just for about three or four months, line up everybody again to go to the polling booth, get in there and take it easy for four or five years. Okay? That is the philosophy. I hear rumours wish they would and call it. ahead and call of an election. I call it. Go ahead I mean really, go it. What is the L2180 May 13, 1987 Vol XL is sue I wonder? What is the next one? The mandate to creatE! jobs was they like the last one. What else can have now I wonde!r.

I wouJ.d to know. MR. FUREY: Mandate to cucumbers. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mandate to cucumbers, whatever, I do not know. But I would likE! to know what the mandate in the next one is going to bE!. I wonder what the mandate is going to be the next time, Mr. Speaker·. I wonde!r what it is going to be. They have a mandate now to do what they were supposed to do and what they are supposed to be doing, a five year mandate. We have had. three elections and you have an unemployment rate that is going up or down-it is not going down. It goes down by a half a percentage point and the Premier comes in with a MinisteriaJ.

Statement. The next month it goes up by 4 per cent, hE! decides, "I am not going to bothet~ with that. I am not going to tell them holAJ bad a job he is doing. I will tell him how good a job he is doing though." I do not mind them playing politics, Mr. Speaker, I do not mind him playing politics but, by gee, at the end of the day, whe!n the unemployment rate is going up, they are coming in and taking credit and printing advertising. Then they do not know who has spent it or what department it comes from. When you ask them in estimates, you do not know whe!re it cornes from.

You do not have a clue where it is goinq. They are .spending all this money telling us how good a job we are doing and we have 45,000 young people in the Province walking around with their No. 41 R2180

hands in their pockets trying to figure out what they are going to do. Where is the tackling of that problem? I could understand it if they were a new administration. I could understand it if he just got elected as Premier and there was a ne~ mandate where he set out a plan where we were going to have this by next year, May of next year, we are going to have the unemployment rate down to 22 per cent or 21 per cent or 20 per cent or whatever. I could understand if there was a plan of action to deal with the problem. I could understand it. But it is so haphazard!

It is just like as soon as I can get the wind, I ulill see what the air is saying now. As soon as I grab an issue, let us go for three weeks, twenty-one days, hit the .· streets, let us go for it again, get in with our n i c e c u s h y twenty- two ministers, take it easy, and rest easy for a few more years. Well, I think it is time, Mr. Speaker, this administration got around to dealing with the problem. They can accuse us of everything. I do not care what they accuse me of - whatever they want to, Mr. Speaker, I have no problem with that.

But we are an Opposition, duly elected to make sure that this government acts accountably and brings forward good policies to the people of this Province to deal with the real issue in this Province. If they are not going to do that, then they are going to get me standing up here every day, whenever I have the opportunity, and I am sure my hon. colleagues will do the same thing, and let them know where we stand on the issues and where we think they L2181 May 13, 1987 Uol XL should be going. We are going to continue to do that. They can call us what they want, I do not care, Mr.

Speaker, but I can tell you, they have not been doing a good job and they deserve a telling off, Mr. Speaker. The only figure that matters to me at the end of the day, the only figure that matters is the 25 per cent unemployment figure. I see it going straight up and they talk apout the good job they arE! doing . The $10,000 it costs for a big ad in The Evening Telegram for three or four weeks I have no problem with, Mr. Speaker. I wish they would advertise the nice unemployment rate they have because one of these days the people of Newfoundland are going to say, 1 ! am not too sure I believe them anymore.

I think he has had his chance ·. He has had eight years. 1 God knows whE!n he will call another one, Mr. Speaker. · I think people are starting to look at it real hard and I am looking forwa .rd .to them looking at it real hard. As long as a government in this Province deals with the problem, Mr. Speaker, they will have the support of people but I do not think that this one is and I think it is about time they took a hard look at what they are doing . I think, in the future, Mr. Speaker, in the very short term, the 'y are going to be in a lot of trouble with the people of this Province.

I arn .looking forward to that, Mr. Speaker. They can say what they want about us but we have some ideas and we are going to continue to put them forward. They rnay be harebrained, they can call us what they want on them, but we have some good ideas.and we No. 41 R2181

are going to keep on telLing them what they are doing wrong. We will give you a pat on the back when you are doing something right but, Mr. Speaker, it is about time you look at what you have been doing. Twenty-five per cent unemployment is. not performance, Mr. Speaker, and t:he phrase 1 have-not will be no more, 1 I am afraid is going to be around a· long time with Brian Peckford as Premier of this Province. So ·r think it is about time that we got after this government and kept after them. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. K. AYLWARD: You can call me what you want but that is not performance.

It is about time you got off these $60, ooo or $70, ooo· jobs and started doing your work.· Come up with policy instead of rhetoric to talk about 1We are doing this and we are doing that. 1 I could go on all day but I am going to sit down. I am looking forward to the policy initiatives they are going to announce God knows when. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKE;_B_: The han. the member for Burin Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, if we ever witnessed

an act by an han. member! He was talking about unemployment when just a few weeks ago he was part of the coup that created L2182 May 13, 1987 . Vol XL unemployment in this Province. It was· not that long ago, Mr. Speaker, that he was part of the bedroom coup that put the shaft to the Leader of the Opposition, created an opening, WIEHlt out, Mr. Speaker, and could not Find anyone to run. Talk about unemployme!nt! They could not find anyone to run, so what did they do? They got a group of business people together. We may discloSE! who they are one of these days. MR. CALLAN: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, Please! A point of order, the hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, there is a rule of relevancy and I would suggest that the me.mber for Burin -PlaCE!ntia West be asked to obey that rule of relevancy. He is not addressing anything close to ·the private member1s motion that is on the floor today. I think he should be called to order and a~ked to stick to the topic at hand and stop talking nonsense and fabrications. MR. TOBIN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, obviously the!re is no point of order.

We are certainly dealing with what the han. me!mbe!r' for Stephenville said when he tJJas talking about unemployment in this Province. I was talking about the member creating unemployment. The member for Bellevue is a little bit embarrassed becau s.e thE! b1ood is not dry on his hands and he is sitting next to the member he carne after. MR. FUREY: To that point of order, Mr . No. 41 R2182

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for St. Barbe. MR. FUREY: My hon. colleague for Bellevue simply raised in his place to point under the Standing Orders and to Beauchesne where it is very clear that when a member rises in his place to debate, he confines his remarks to the actual text of what is being debated. A very simple suggestion was his submission to the Chair which . makes his counter to the point of order absolutely irrelevant, like his speech. MR. SPEAKER : I have heard enough on that point of order. The Chair rules that there is no point of order.

I am going to ask the hon. member for Placentia West to continue. MR. TOBIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As we are dealing with unemployment, I just want to mention that and I understand that the salary is quite high. I see the member is now going out to wash his hands and he should. He was part of the coup, led the coup as a matter of fact. Mr. Speaker, when we look at this resolution put before the House today and we talk about stimulating the economy, and ways to stimulate the economy as put forth by the member for Bonavista North, I wonder, Mr. Speaker, where they are coming from.

We, as a government, over the past number of years have been doing an ample job with the resources that are available to try and stimulate this economy. All you have to do, L2183 May 13, 1987 Uol XL Mr. Speaker, is look at the announcements that have bE!en made by the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development, the announcement, Mr. Speaker, that dealt with creating jobs in rural NE!Wfoundland. The member for Bellevue '(Mr. Callan), Mt'. Speaker, was asking questions today. There were jobs creab?.d by that project dealing with his own district. I would suspect, Mr .

Speaker; he is not aware of it because he is not aware of too much that is going on in his district. It is no wonder the polls indicate that both himself and the member for Fortune Hermitage (Mr. Simmons) are the two weakest members in the House of Assembly. It is no wonder the polls are indicating that. I am not at all surprised with the attitude that has been displayed by the. member for Bellevue. I think today is a good opportunity for me to · expose the member for Be!llevue. I have donE! it bE!fOrE:1, Mr.

Speaker, and I will do it again, as it relates to the way he got on with the Auditor General and the Marystown Shipyard constructing the ferries for the Department of Transportation. We all know where you stand on the construction, and the tender call. Oh, yes, Pictou would build the ships and you would love it. And he talking, Mr. Speak(:!r, about what is happening in this Province! It is too bad we have got members in this House with that type of an attitude who want to exploit the resources of Newfoundlanders and create jobs elsewhere.

But again I believe that exemplifies the reason why they arE! in the Opposition and WE! are in government. The few Minister of Fisheries just a weeks ago announced 250 jobs No. 4-1 1~2183

with the fishery sector of this Province. That is nothing to laugh at, Mr. Speaker. Again, a significant number of these jobs being created in the districts of members opposite. I think the member for Burgeo -Bay d 1 Espoir (Mr. Gilbert) did fairly well. I am sure he did well in the fo~estry sector. MR. GILBERT: How did he do in polls? MR. TOBIN: What is that? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. TOBIN: He did well in the polls? Yes,. Mr. Speaker, indeed he did do well in the polls!

But I will tell the member for Burgeo -Bay d 1 Espoir one thing, I can say in the House that I received more v6tes from Newfoundlanders in the last election than anyone else who occupies a seat in this House. The hon. gentleman cannot say that. Mr. Speaker, having said that in my humble manner - MR. CALLAN: That has nothing to do with you. MR. TOBIN: Well, it has a lot to do with what the hon. member for Fortune Hermitage said this afternoon. I cannot divulge what he got in Burin -Placentia West in the last federal election. Mr.

Speaker, the bottom line is that this government is on the right· course for job creation. In my district, for example, in the district of Burin -Placentia West, over the past month we have announced in excess 6f $100 L2184 May 13, 1987 Vol XL million worth of work. What about the hydro development in Paradise River, down in thE! bottom of Placentia Bay in Monkstown? My colleague from Burgeo -Bay d1Espoir I am sure is very familiar with that arE!a, bE!ing originally from Haystack. He is very fam.iliar with IAJhat we arE! talking about. I can tell you, Mr.

Speaker, that the people in the area are very familiar with what we are talking about. TherE! are going to be jobs created and there -are going to be peopJ.e frorn these isolated communities and from the smaller communities in that area who are going to receive work. That is very important to me, Mr. Speaker, and I am very proud to be as so cia ted with a government that has that type of foresight and has that type of an agency as it relates to the hydro development. MR. EFFORD: Would the hon. member permit a question? MR. TOBIN: Sure. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member For Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD: Thank you.

The question is: You just said is your district got $100 million worth of work this year. WouJ.d the member agree then, considerJng the amount of money his district got and that the dist1Aic t of Port de Grave in two years has gotten a total of $80,000, that it is definitely not done a political basis? MR. TOBIN: No. 41 R2184

Mr. Spea.ker, the member for Port de Grave raises a very valid point. I make no apologies, Mr. Speaker, for the fact that the people of .Burin - Placentia West elected me, and I have produced. The people of Port de Grave elected him and he has not. That is the problem. Mr. Speaker, I have produced in my district. I have been elected to represent them. I went out and I have gotten projects and you sat back here and pretended to be representing your district when you are like the rest of your colleagues. Now, with your new unstabbed leader, you have done absolutely nothing in terms of representing your district.

As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) do not know how to find half the departments .. MR. CALLAN : Mr. Speake~. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I contend the member For Burin - Placentia West is deliberately misleading this House. He talked about all of the money that is going to his district when much of it is going to the Marystown Shipyard, which was. put there by J. R. Smallwood, some of it without public tenders, as we saw happen in the Auditor General•s Report.last year. But, Mr.

Speaker, for the member to stand in his place and say that the money went to his district because he stood up and fought for it is utter nonsense as is the reason the member for Pert de L2185 May 13, 1987 Vol XL Grave is did not get anything for his district because he did not fight for it, that, Mr. Speaker, is misleading the House. I say hE! is doing it deliberately and I would say, Mr. Speaker, that he should be as ked to withdraw thE! se remarks and set the record straight. MR. SIMMS: To that point Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of the Minister of and Lands. MR.

SIMMS: of order, Mr . order, Forest the han. Resources First of all the hon. membE!r is a veteran of . the House and should be well aware that he is not allowed to accuse another member of deliberately misleading the House . He is not permitted under the rules to do that. All hE! has argued under the point of order, of course, is a difference of opinion, that is about all he has, a difference of opinion with the:~ han. the member for Burin Placentia West. It is certainly not a valid point of order. Anybody can see that. In. any instance, Mr .

Speaker, in any case, the hon. member has no choice but to withdraw the term deliberately misleading otherwise Your Honour will have no choice but to name him and the hon. member will have to leave the House. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I have been listening to the member for Burin - Placentia West and looking at the private member•s resolution that was put before this HouSE! by Mr. Lush. It deals with jobs, it deals with unemployment, it deals No. 41 R2185

with finance and I have not heard the member from Placentia West get away from that argument. I would have to rule that the member for Bellevue was out of order and I ask him to withdraw that comment of misleading the House. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, with humility I assume the member for Burin Placentia West is not deliberately misleading the House. He is inadvertently misleading the House. however, Mr. Speaker, and that is not unparliamentary. I withdraw the part about deliberately misleading the House, he is inadvertently misleading the House, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: I am going to have to ask the member to also withdraw the statement •inadvertently misleading the House• because it is in the same context and I think that .it means the same thing. MR. CALLAN: Your Honour, no, I am quite familiar with Beauchesne and the former Speaker who spoke on this point of order will concur with me when I say that inadvertently misleading the House is not unparliamentary and for that reason, Mr. Speaker, I have withdrawn deliberately misleading but I have substituted for it inadvertently.

Obviously it must be inadvertent on his part and I do not see any reason to withdraw that and neither do I intend to, Your Honour. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, with due respect to what the hon. member says, I may or may not agree with the hon. member for Bellevue, -but that is L2186 May 13, 1987 Vol XL ·-· not the point here. The point here is that the Speaker has instructed a member to withdraw a remark which he considers ·to be unparliamentary, which thE! Speaker can do, and no member of this House can disregard the authority of the Chair, whoever is occupying it.

If the hon. member as ked mE! to withdraw any kind of a word or comment, then, with rE!spect to thE! authority of the Chair, I would withdraw it, whether I agreed with i:t or not. I know what the hon. member is saying and I do not have any big argument with it, but the Speaker has asked him to withdraw. The simplest way would be simply to withdraw and not make a big deal out of it. MR. B.AKER: Mr. SpeakE!r, order. to that point of MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the m~mber for Gander. MR.

BAKER: I know what has happened here and I would suggest, to avoid any problems, that Your Honour take the matter under advisement and check the record, check Hansard, check Beauchesne and come back with a ruling tomorrow perhaps. I suggest that that tJJould be a proper way out of this situation. MR. SPEAKER: I have heard enough on the point of order. I wi11 takE! the advicE! of the hon. member for· Gander and take it under advisement and comE! in tomorrow with a ruling. The hon. the member for Burin Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: It is obvious, Mr. Speaker, that the member for Bellevue is No. 41 R2186

smirking under what the mayor in his district had to say when she went on CBC television and said that we do not have representation, that the member for Bellevue has not delivered, Mr. Speaker. That is what she said as it · related to the Department of Municipal Affairs. Mr: Speaker, he has not gone to the Department of Municipal Affairs yet to look for assistance for his district. MR. CALLAN: A point of order, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, again the hon . the member for Burin - Placentia West is not aware of all of the facts surrounding the topic that he has now brought before this Legislatur~. The fact of the matter is that what the Mayor of Chapel Arm, the Tory Mayor of Chapel Arm, said on public television, has no truth to it whatsoever. The town of Chapel Arm has not applied for water and sewer at least in the last three years. She has been mayor for less than two. So there is no truth to what she said and it has nothing to do with me.

How can I work for the people of Chapel Arm unless I am told that they have an application in for water and sewer or for any other project? I was not contacted by the town council in Chapel Arm, and of course they did not put in an application. So the member for Burin Placentia West, Mr. Speaker, again is misleading this Legislature. He is misleading the House. MR. SIMMS : L2187 May 13. 1987 Vol XL Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands. MR.

SIMMS: It should be made clear that the han. the member for BelletJUe now persists in taking up the timE! of the han. member for Burtn Placentia West. MR. ~ALLAN: He is misleading the House. MR . SIMMS: For the edification of people I).Jho may be listening, members on Private Members 1 Day have only twenty minutes to speak on a Private Members 1 Resolution . If the han. the mE:1mber for BE!llevUE! wants to make those kinds of comments or accusaU .ons, then let him get up in the debate and make them. Do not use the time ·of another hon. member! He only has twenty minutes!

That is exactly what the hon. member is doing, Mr. Speaker. It is a deliberate tactic. It is not a point of order. It is so clearly not a point of order. · It is simply a matter of dispute between thE! member For Bellevue and the member for Burin - Placentia West. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order, just a difference of opinion between two hon. gentlemen. The hon. the member for Burin Placentia West. MR. TOBIN : Mr. Speaker, it is obvious what the Minister of Forest ResourCE!S and Lands has said is true, and that the member for Bellevue is No . 41 R2187

one member who constantly disrupts the rules of this House, constantly ignores the Chair, and constantly, Mr. Speaker, interrupts someone when one is speaking. Mr. Speaker, we arto tal king about something that was put before us today, something, Mr. Speaker, that is without foundation. As I was saying, as we look at what the Department of Fisheries has done, as we look at what the Department of Municipal Affairs has done in job creation in this Province, Mr. Speaker -I know in my own district, Mr. Speaker, I announced something in the area of $1 million for the water and sewer and municipal roads. I wait, Mr.

Speaker, For the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) and hopefully he will be able to facilitate some stuff for my district. Mr. Speaker, you talk about this government. What about the mining industry in this Province? What about the St. Lawrence mine? W#hat about the Baie Verte mines? What about Kruger in Corner Brook? What about the Hopebrook gold mine, Mr. Speaker? That is not job creation! Mr. Speaker, I say to the member for Bellevue, 1 So be it. 1 We did get money for the Marys town Shipyard to construct ·the trawlers, but we went and worked hard to get the money, Mr.

Speaker, despite the member for Bellevue and despite the Liberal Party. We spent long enough with your leader today, we spent along enough when the member for Fortune -Hermitage was in Ottawa representing us, when they refused to let the oil rigs come in for repairs. Now, Mr. Speaker, the same type of ~ontempt is being displayed by the member for Bellevue. L2188 May 13 , 19 a '7 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TOBIN: The fact of the matter is, and the fact of the matter is clear, that there is a $60 million trawler replacement programme on the go in Marystown, Mr.

Speaker, and it would not have been underway had it not been for the efforts of this government, Mr. Speaker, who encouraged the federal government to come up with the money. With a Premier, Mr. Speaker, who said and the people of the district know, Mr. Speaker -1 lEven if they do not come up with l:he money, I will ensure that ever~/ trawlE!r is built in Marystown. 1 Mr. Speaker, there is one other group that I want to mention and they happen to be in the gallery today, and that is thE! Marys town Shipyard Union, Mr.

Speaker, who are leaders in this Province and who played a vital role in convincing everybody involved to become involved in the construction of these trawlers. That is the type of co-operation we have. That is the type of group that we have, unified and working together to create employment in this Province, Mr. Speaker, and no thanks from the member for Bellevue (IIIJr. Callan). We all know what he said; we all saw you on television, and we do not forget nor will we, Mr. Speaker. Now the member for Bellevue, Mr. Speaker, wants to talk about other issues.

He wants to talk about rural development that is going on. What about the salmon enhancement programme, the study on the rivers in Placentia Bay? Does the member for Bellevue not know that some of the rivers in his own district are being studied No. 41 R2188

for a salmon enhancement programme? MR. J. CARTER: No, he is lying to the House . MR . TOBIN: No, you do not know . I will tell you something else, if I wished, and I can tell you who told me you do .not know what is going on. MR . DOYLE: You do not know . MR . TOBIN : Thi s government, Mr. Speaker, is in the right direction in job creation with the resources available. · All you have to do is look at the budget that was presented, Mr . Speaker, look at the Throne Speech that was presented, Mr. Speaker, and you will see that this government is in the right direction, creating jobs for this Province.

I can further say, Mr. Speaker, I am familiar, obviously, with the Burin Peninsula and what is taking place in the fishing industry. There is a new secondary processing plant at Burin , Mr . Speaker, and I believe that has tremendous values for this Province . I believe, Mr. Speaker, that as we develop the fishery, step forward into secondary processing of fish, Mr. Speaker, it is indeed very, very important and the Burin secondary processing will play a lE!ading role in that operation. Mr . Speaker, furthermore we talked about the fishery and jobs that were created in the fishery.

The Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Sirnms) announced a few weeks ago - MR. SIMMS : $1.5 million . L2'189 May 13, 1987 Vol XL MR. TOBIN : $1.5 million, creating how many jobs? MR. SIMMS : Oh, 250 jobs . MR. TOBIN: 250 jobs . MR. EFFORD: Permanent jobs? MR. SIMMS: Yes, permanent, seasonal jqbs . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest to the member for Port de Grave (Mr . Efford) that the jobs that th e Minister of · Forest Resources and Lands announced are a lot more permanent than his is when the next election is called. MR.

EFFORD: Where are the polls ~ MR. TOBIN: Now, Mr. Speaker, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! · MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TOBIN : Mr. Speaker, he is beginntng l:o sound like the socialist party, they are For everything and they are against everything. They are consistently inconsistent . Now, Mr. Speaker, the member for Port de Grave is trying to be as consistent as the socialist party, the member for St. John 1 s East No. 41 R21.89

(Mr. Long) and Menihek (Mr. the member for Fenwick), Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS : At least they will position, they will not. . MR. TOBIN: take a Well okay. that is true. They will take a position while they will not. They spend more time, Mr. Speaker, running back and forth around the House, back and forth through the House than they do in the House. Maybe we should . call Bill 1, is it? AN HON. MEMBER: Yes. MR. TOBIN: Maybe we should call Bill 1 again and let the galleries see how the socialists will scurry out of the House. MR. BAIRD : See how the roadrunner takes off. MR. TOBIN: See how the roadrunner works. Mr.

Speaker, the bottom line is, in all industrial sectors, in the social sector of this Province and with the resources that are available, this government has done a commendable job. I can further say, Mr. Speaker, that I am proud to be associated with this government, and certainly grateful for the support that I received from the Premier and his government as it relates to my district. I have worked in conjunction with all of the people involved in the administration, unlike the members opposite, Mr. Speaker. As a result of that. we have seen results for our district. MR.

EFFORD: L2190 May 13, 1987 Vol XL (Inaudible) somebody today . MR. SPEAKER (Mitchell): Order, please! I have to ask the member for Port de Grave to restrain himself while the member is speaking . The hon. member Placentia West. MR. TOBIN : for Burin the Minister of and Lands (Mr. me that all the does is criticize Oh, Mr. Speaker, Forest Resources Simms) reminded crowd opposite and condemn - MR. J. CARTER: The member for Bellevue is always lying. MR. TOBIN : -and oppose. MR. SIMMS: The Opposttion syndrome. MR. TOBIN: That is a ever seen this House as to how happen? MR. EFFORD: good point.

Have you one of them stand in and make a suggestion something positive can On a point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. the hon. rnernber for Port de Grave. MR. EFFORD : I want to point out very clearly to the member for Burin Placentia West (Mr. Tobin), I stood in this House and made a suggestion to the IV!inister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) that he would give the district of Port de Grave some money to do water and sewer and he did not do it. No. 41 R2190

That is a suggestion. MR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order. The hon. the member for Burin-Placentia West. MR. TOBIN : Mr.. Speaker, the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) might have stood in this House and told the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) what to do, but the mE!mber for Port de Grave never stood in the Office . of the Minister of Municipal Affairs and told him · what to do .. Because you do not know where his office is. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DOYLE: He never telephone. MR . TOBIN: called me on the Look, not even a telephone call, Mr. Speaker, and they talk, Mr.

Speaker, about what is going on in their district. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon . member's time has elapsed. MR. TOBIN: By leave, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: By leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS : No leave. MR. BARRY : Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Mount Scio-Bell Island. L2191 May 1.3, 1987 Vol XL .· MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, the motion that we have before the House I must say bears very little resemblance to the contents of the speech that we just heard.

One liste!ning to the member for Burin-Placentia West I think would have a hard time find references to the per capita debt of the Province, to the financial position of the Province, to the unemployment figures of the Province, and to the pr·oposals contained in this private member's resolution to reduce the sales tax, prepare a practical and comprehensive economic plan, and to bring in a tax crr:~di t to stimulate investment. Mr. Speaker, the

preamble sets out some of the reasons why. The member for Burin-Plancentia West was discussing polls. One of the most recent polls I have SE!en was one that was done at t:he end of January. Jan~ary 28 was ·the date that I received it, as a matter of fact. I had the• opportunity of passing this on to The Evening Telegram yesterday in order to counteract the comments of the editor in his editorial last Saturday, where his thesis was that there was a change of leadership in the Liberal Party because the polls showed that the Liberal Party, under my leaders hip, could not win the nE!Xt election.

As a matter of fact I should have that poll here today, but I will be happy to release that poll's figures. I wi 11 probably do it by a press release tomorrow. Very interestingly, that poll oF January 28, 1987, showed that thE! liberal Party was ahead of the Conservative Party and way ahead of the NDP. As a matter of fact, the NDP in the Province were five points behind the national party. No. 41 R2191

The poll was done on both provincial and federal issues. The question was: Who would you vote for today if there were an election with Brian Peckford, the Leader of the Conservative Party; Leo Barry, Leader of the Liberal Party; and Peter Fenwick, Leader of the NDP Party? The same thing wa~ as ked for the federal parties and the federal leaders. There were some very interesting figures, Mr. Speaker. It shows that the Conservative Party was still leading in the St. John's area, and it s hawed that the Liberal Party and the NDP Party­ were very close in the St. John's area. It showed outside of the St.

John's area - I am not sure if it was eleven or twelve seats, basically the St. John's Metropolitan area -that the Liberal Party, if I can remember the figures exactly, had 41 per cent, the Conservative Party 39 per cent, and the NDP 20 per cent. MR. LONG: That would be misleading. MR. BARRY: That was outside the St. John's area. I will have to remember the figures for inside the St. John's areas by thinking up the figures for the Liberals and the NDP, because the NDP were ahead of the Liberal Party by 1.5 or two percentage points, which is meaningless, and basically we were n e c k and n e c k within S t .

John ' s . It was 29 per cent for the Liberal Party within St. John's, 31 per cent for the NDP within St. John's -what does that add up to, 60 per cent? -and 40 per cent for the Conservative Party within the St. John's area. Province-wide, as I of St. John's, it Party 41 per cent, L2192 May 13, 1987 say, outside was Liberal Conservative! Uol XL Party 39 per cent and the NDP 20 per cent or 21 per cent. MR. SIMMS: When was it taken? MR. BARRY: January 28 under my leadership. It was taken only two or three days after the Canada/France fisheries debate arose.

I think the polls would indicate, my gut feeling would be, and I have not seen recent numbers to confirm it, that members opposite would have seen some increase in popularity, briefly, while those first few days of hysteria were drummed up with respect to this agreement. But frankly the issue was neutralized, as the ~remier himself stated in his letter of thanks to myself and I think to the NDP leader as well, but I arn not sure. MR. FENWICK: He did not thank me. MR. BARRY: He did not thank you? Anyway, hE! thanked us for the assistance we gaue in helping see this issue resolved.

So that issue did not become a partisan issue, and in fact I think the Premier, although he was gearing up pos :s ibly for an election try under that issue, quite frankly when he reassessed the numbers as he got into the campaign he saw that the issue had frankly been neutralized by the actions that were taken by ourselves in coming out uery clearly in support of the Province and protecting the Province's right to be involVE!d and thE! Premier's right to be consul t:ed in discussions concerning that Canada/France Fisheries Agreement. When you combine the St. John's numbers and the outs ".ide of St.

John's numbers, it was 39 No. 41 R2192

per cent Conservative, 38 per cent Liberal - what does that give you when you add that up, 77? - and 23 per cent for gentlemen on my right. MR. MATTHEWS: Everyone had decided? MR. BARRY: The undecided was lower, interestingly, for the provincial issue than the federal, just over 20 per cent or 21 per cent. AN HON. MEMBER: It was a poll you had commissioned? MR. BARRY: It was a poll I had co1nrnissioned, with 501 respondents. MR. SIMMS: How many questions? MR.

BARRY: It was one question which said: Who would vote for if Brian Peckford were -the leader of the Conservative Party, Leo Barry were the leader of the Liberal Party, Peter Fenwick the leader of the NDP? Now, you get a response then on leadership as ·well as party affiliation having the two combined like that. The poll was done by Research AssociatE!S, a reputable, well-known polling firm here in the city, which has done good work, which has been proven correct in the past, and, Mr. Speaker, I have to confess that I would not mind going into an election on those numbers. I have to confess, Mr.

Speaker, -· that those numbers showed me that the Liberal Party - MR. SIMMS: Did your colleagues see that? MR. BARRY: Yes. As a matter Liberal caucus and L2193 May 13, 1987 of fact, the the executive Vol XL board of the Liberal Party saw these numbers, were informed of these numbers. The interesting thing, Mr. Speaker, is that those numbers showed me that an E!lection callE!d at that point in time would have brought in a Liberal government, ·either a bare majority or a Liberal minority government. Not bad! Mr.

Speaker, the rE!ason I mention that poll at this time - I will be happy to distribute copies and to show members just exactly what is involved - the interE!Sting thing, you see, in that poll - MR. SIMMS: Is that Steve Neary's poll! MR. BARRY: No, no. This is a legitimate polT which -can be backed up. ThE! interesting . thing is that i.t showed the Liberal Party leading in the age group eighte ·en to thirty-four . It showed thE! Liberal Party, I guess for the first time since 1971, leading amongst young voters .

Another interesting thing is it showed the Liberal Party considerably ahead with respect to the female vote, but behind with respect to the male vote. A considerable difference in the response, I thtnk close to 10 percentage points difference, in the position of t:he Liberal Party and the Cons~rvative Party, vice-versa, in the male and fernal1= vote, which is striking. The bottom line, Mr . Speaker, is that the Liberal Party at the end of January, 1987, if an election were called, would have won the government. No . 41 R2193

By the way, just think back now to the last election, in 1985, when members on the opposite side of the House were becoming a little edgy, I would subm_i t, particularly the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Simms), in the last week of the campaign. Would the hon. members like to know what the polls were at that point in time, when we werit into that election? Do you know what they were? MR. SIMMS: No. You tell us . MR. BARRY: Well, when that election was called, it showed the Conservatives at 55 per cent in the polls, and it showed the Liberal Party at 35 per cent in the polls. MR. SIMMS: What you ended up with . MR.

BARRY: No, no. We ended up with 39 - 40 per cent. MR. WARREN: No you never . MR. BARRY : Of the vote, yes . MR. SIMMS: I have it here. MR. BARRY : Well dig it out and you will see. Members should go back and dig it out. Well, you remembef' what your own percentage of the vote was, presumably. It was less than 50 per cent, remember. It was 47 or 48 per cent, I believe. MR. PEACH: Why did you leave? That is what I cannot understand. L2194 May 13, 1987 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. DOYLE: 3o that was 90 per cent, 55 and 35. MR. BARRY: Fifty-five and thirty-five, yes.

The NDP 10 per cent in the early stages. But by the last week of the election the NDP support showed 19 per cent. So the difference between where they are now and where they were then is about 2 percentage points, not very significant. · But they could not deliver the 19 per cent at the polls. They only got 14 to 15 pE!r cent on election day. Their support does not translate into votes at the polls either through lack of organization or people having second thoughts when they go in· to mark thE~ir ballot. Possibly· some p-eople, feeling that they had no chance of -forming thE! government, changed their minds. MR.

SIMMS: You got 36. 7 of the popular vote . We got 48.5 and the NDP got 14 per cent . MR. DOYLE: What you said was pretty accurate . MR. BARRY: Okay. MR. SIMMS : Actually you got less votes 198a:>, 102,o 'oo, than you did 1972, fifteen years before that . MR. BARRY: No, that is not correct . MR. SIMMS: Yes, it is . in in No. 41 R2194

MR. BARRY: No. MR. SIMMS: Would you like to know how many votes you got in 1972? MR. BARRY: Well, I would like ge~ up, sure, and figures afterwards. the member to give us those The reason, Mr. Speaker, I refer to this is that it is not so hard to envisage why these numbers were there. Just think now how well we did in the 1985 election, how close we came, with that spread of 20 percentage points. Just imagine where we would be going into the election neck and neck. · MR. DOYLE: They could reverse though, could they not? MR. BARRY: It could. I would be prepared to take my chances on that, sure. MR.

BAIRD: Would the member permit a question? MR. BARRY: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Humber West. MR. BAIRD: If the han. the member for Mount Scio had his time back there two years ago, would he have worked his butt of for some of the members now occupying a seat in this House MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I am motivates the member I am motivated by advance the cause of not sure! what opposite, but working to a party with L2195 May 13, 1987 Vol XL a certain philosophy and certain policies. That was what I was working for.

It was not on behalf of any particular individual, including myself, so I would, of course, have done the same as I did because it was in the best interest of the party to so do.

What I would like to say, and how this is relevant to the present debate, of course, is that it is very understandable why the Liberal Party position, was in a position at the end of January to form the government, whe!n onE! considers the abysmal economic performance of members opposite, when one considers the Minister of Finance for this ProvincE! - I was going to say having the gaLl but it really was a matter of just having no choice - bringing in a budget that quadrupled the deficit, a budget that in one year sees the Province going out to borrow as much money as it took Joey Smallwood twenty-three years to build up in terms of debt.

For twenty-three years Joey Smallwood built schools, hospitals, roads -- MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The hon . the member For Grand Falls. MR. SIMMS: Just to provide the former Lead,~r of the Opposition with an interesting statistic _ to Fit in with his whole spe!ech, and I cannot provide it later because I have already spoken in the debate, but we talked about the number of votes. For example I in 1949 I thirty-six years ago, the Liberal Party polled 110,000 votes. MR. BARRY: That was about 90 per cent of the No. 41 R2195

votes. MR. SIMMS: Thirty-six years later, in 1985, they polled 102,000 votes so that to me indicates not an upward trend but a downward trend. The Conservative Party, on the other hand, in 1949 polled 55,000 votes but thirty-six years later they polled 13 5, 000 votes. To me there is a significant difference in terms of trends if one is trying to argue trends, which I think the member for Mount Scio was trying to argue. MR. BARRY: The minister's comments are taken, absolutely. The interesting thing about trends, Mr.

Speaker, as the Premier said in a comment to somebody or other -the CBC, I think . -the other day, about the only thing constant in this world is change. · And the in-teresting thing about trertds is that trends change, and that is what we are seeing in this Province today. Perhaps the minister would like to give us the Conservative vote in 1982 and the Conservative vote in 1985. MR. SIMMS: I would be han. member that? MR. BARRY: Yes. MR. SIMMS: happy would to. Would like to the have Mr. Speaker, to the point of order. The Conservative vote in 1982 was 151,000 and in 1985 it was 136,000. MR.

BARRY: An interesting trend. MR. SIMMS: The Liberal vote in 1982, which is L2196 May 13 • 19 8 '7 Vol XL what I know the han. member wani:s to hear, was 88,000, up to 102,000 in 1983. MR. BARRY: Not bad. An interesting trend. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order, I am wondering if the han. the member for Mount Scio -Bell Island would conclude -he only has a couple of minutes left -and show us the relevancy of this debate, where he is heading. MR. BARRY: I would be glad to, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, the interesting thing is that, as the minister confirmE!d with his most rec£C~nt figures. there is a trend developing, that trend started in the la~t election, in 1985, and it is a trend to see increasing votes for the Liberal Party and declining votes for the Conservative Par·ty. And my friend on the right, the member for Menihek, he saw his party increasing its share of thE! vote, and if he keeps at it another five or six YE!ars he is going to be getting the same share in this Province provincially as his party gets federally. Right now he is about 5 percentage points behind.

That is not going to be something that the U.beral Party will despair over because the figures indicate that they are Tory voters, which is very interesting, that we see the philosophic shift, the p1:!ndulum swing going from the far right to the far left. MR. SIMMS: The proof of that will come! after the next election. No. 41 R2196

MR. BARRY : Yes . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member 1 s time has elapsed. MR. BARRY: Could I have by leave? just a few moments, MR. SPEAKER: Do we have leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the member for Mount Scio . MR. BARRY : The relevancy of all this, of course is that we have seen in 1985, and continuing up to January 28 of · 1987, a continuing trend towards an . impro~ed political position for the Liberal Party, the Liberal Party climbing in the polls, climbing in the numbers of people associated with the party. Do you know something?

That is something I am not going to back away from. I am not going to permit that record to be set out inaccurately by Mr . Finley of The Evening Telegram and by leadership contenders in the Liberal Party - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: - some of whom have dared say that the Liberal Party was in a position of despair pending the arrival on the scene of certain individuals. Mr. Speaker, I have to say that I am proud of the progress of the Liberal Party under my leadership since 1984. L2197 May 13, 1987 Vol XL We had a lot of work to do, we had a lot of catching up to do and, Mr.

Speaker, we haVE! gotten there. Now I just hope that we can continue that trend and that momentum that has been built up. DR . COLLINS: What is (inaudible) scene? MR. BARRY : happening polls on thE! to the national On the national scene, a very interesting figure in a poll that we did, which showed the federal Liberals ahead in St. John 1 s for the first time that I arn aware of in a long, long time, showed th E!ITI ahead of the Conservatives, with the NDP a distant third. DR. COLLINS: What was that, on the total stats for St. John 1 s. MR. BARRY : It was broad rarging. MR. J.

CARTER: It was an ·inaccurate pol1, obviously! MR. BARRY: Well, the margin of error would have been greater because I think it would have been around 160 of the 501 would have been from the St. John 1 s area. MR. J. CARTER: That was a slum poll! slums. MR. BARRY : PoLling ·The member for St . John 1 s North is adding traditional -enlightenment, the only true Tory in this House, Mr. Speaker. He had to forgo his Tory principles in the last budget with that deficit financing . Well, Mr. Speaker, to conc1ude and No. 41 R2197

finish - MR. SIMMS: Very interesting that you got up and criticized the member for Burin-Placentia West's ·speech abo•~t having nothing to do with the resolution. MR : BARRY : Mine is highly relevant, because one has to ask what is the reason for this trend? What is the reason for the Liberal Party 1 s improvement since 1984 in the polls? MR. MATTHEWS : It is you . MR. BARRY: While I will take some credit for it, yes, Mr. Speaker, I have to also acknowledge with gratitude the assistance provided by members opposite, and parti cula.rly, Mr.

Speaker,. in terms of economic performance, because _every time the Minister of Finance brought down a Budget, our fortunes rose. Every time the figures came out with respect to unemployment, Liberal fortunes rose. And Mr. Speaker, when the Premier carne out and acknowledged that in another two or three years he was leading the Province back to the 'Dirty Thirties' - that was before the January 28 poll - Mr. Speaker, that statement showed t:hat the Premier foresaw a financial disaster equivalent to the 1930s in the matter of two or three years, and - that, Mr.

Speaker, wiped out any gains that might have been made by his valiant fight on the Canada - France Fisheries Agreement. MR. SIMMS: Have you seen the recent numbers? MR. BARRY: L2198 May 13, 1987 Vol XL No. But I am sure the member for Grand Falls has the same expertise as I have as a pol itician, and when you see the numbers they really only confirm your own gut feeling that you have gotten from the thousands of individuals you speak with. MR. SIMMS: It is down eleven points. MR. BARRY : Down eleven points? MR. SIMMS: Since the assassination plot. MR. BARRY: Anyhow, Mr.

Speaker, the point that I would make is that rill:=!mbr::!rs opposite, if they hope to have any chance at all of having another shot at government, are going to have to do a number of things, and we have made some good suggestions here. Fi rst, let us get a good economic plan for this Province: _secondly, let us get t:he rate of taxation down so that we can stimulate the economy_; and third, let ·us bring in a systE!ITI of tax credit to stimulate investment. With those measures, Mr.

Speaker, there might be some slight hope that the members opposite might reverse their sliding political fortunes, but that would be a very, vt~ry unusual circumstance if it were to occur. DR. COLLINS: Would the hon. member permit a question? MR. BARRY: Yes, definitely. DR. COLLINS: Would the hon. member not agree that at this particular time the electorate is in a rather frivolous mood, a frivolous, s ha 11 we say, jocose frame of mind, No. 41 R2198

because otherwise how could we get these results in regard to the NDP Party? I mean, everyone knows that no sensible elector, when it counts, is going to put in a NDP member. The old phrase goes that 10 per cent will always be poor. Well, say 12 per cent of the electorate will vote for almost anything, the Rhinoceros Party or whatever, and that is the sort of level that the NDP always had. They had that sort of fringe 12 per cent vote. Would the hon. member not agree that that will persist and that level of vote for _ the NDP will come back again once they get out of this frivolous sort of early mid-Summer madness that they are in now in casting t