• ., I ,j Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st Session VERBATIM REPORT Friday, June 2, 1972 SPEAKE Re THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL Number 20

June 2, 1972 The House net at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Order! I would like to velcor.1e to the galleries to<lay a p:roup of grade Vl students numberinr: ahout sevcntv, from the Glovertown Elementary Schonl, Glovertown,with their teachers. Mr. Samuel Johnston and Mr. Rupert TuU- and a second groun from JH - 1 St. Peter's School of Upper Island Cove, a group of grade Vlll numbering forty-two with their teacher, William Greeley, vice-principal. t trust that your visit here is most enjoyable and most educational and indeed we welcome any other visitors who mi~ht be in the galleries today.

HO~O_l_TRAD'f:.E T. ALEX HICKMANOHNISTER OF JUSTICE): }~r. Speaker, I aro pleased to announce the appointment of Mr. John Francis Lawlor as Chief of Police of the Newfoundland Constabulary. Chief of Folice Lawlor is the son of the late Edward Lawlor who was also a member of the ~lewfoundland Constabularv. The new Chief of nolice was born in St. John's on September 27, 1911. He ioincd the Newfoundland Constabularv on Hay 9, 1g3z. f-le performed regular police duties until May 9, 1940 when he was appointed quartermaster for the police and fire rlepartments, a position he held for sixteen vears.

In addition to his normal duties during World Har 11 Chief of Police Lawlor also served as acting quartermaster for auxiliary fire services. In September 1,44 Chief Lawlor attended a four month course in ~eneral police work at Regina, Saskatchewantand has also attended several defense courses at Arnprior. On September 15, 191,4,Mr. Lawlor was promoted to acting Sergeant, April 1, 1947,was appointed as 3ergeant, June 17, 1955,he became a head constable, September 15, 1956 Mr. Lawlor was promoted to District Inspector and on October 1, 1956 appointed officer in charge of Traffic Division.

On January l, 1963 he was appointed supervisor of Street Patrol Division,and assumed his 1395

June 2. 1972 Tape fth4 duties of actinr prosecutor in the t-fo:p,istrate 1 s Court St. John's on July 1, 1966. On May 1, 1968 1 Mr. Lawlor was pror:mted to the rank of Deputy Assistant Chief of Police and on September 1~ 1970,he was promoted to the rank of Assistant Chief of Police. Chief of Police John F. Lawlor was awarded the twenty year police service medal and thirty year bar. He is also the recipient of the centennial medal. Chief of Police Lawlor exemplifies the great tradition nnd devotion to duty of the Newfoundland Constabulary.

His record during forty years of continuous service with the Newfoundland Constabulary has been of the highest order. He is an excellent police officer. I hope to be in a position, Mr. Speaker, to announre to the House of Assembly the names of the Assistant Chief of Police and the Deputy Assistant Chief of Police as soon as I received the required recommendations from Chief of Police Lawlor whose recommendations will be the guiding factor in such appointments as indeed will they JM - 2 be with all appointments and promotions in the Newfoundland Constabulary. ~- W.N. ROt..1E: Mr.

Speaker, this announcement by the honourable minister was not altogether unexpected in respect of Mr. Lawlor but thnt makes it nonetheless very welcome. 1396

June 2 1972 Tape 465 PK - l because Chief Lawlor is esteemed by anybody who has had anything to do with him in his official capacity. He has a magnificant record,which the honourable minister has just given a portion of in the House today. He were delighted an he said,in this government and as the previous government wan delighted in 1968, I believe the date wasJ in maktnr J;fr, Deputy Assistant Chi f!f. He served this province in an exemplary fashion even since and indeed before. He s a man who spent his whole life virtually dedtcate<l to mntters affecting public security.

I remember very well when 1 believe he was a crown prosecutor, back four or five years ago,in magistrate's court - a fHir minded yet sVillful prosecutor. and no more fair minded nor skillful prosecutor could be found anywhere in this country of Canada and indeed in Newfoundland. No I will not tell the story Twas telling my colleagues earlier today, !<fr. Speaker. But I found the gentleman to he an excellent man in every respect and we on this side of the House and indeed all Newfoundlanders who knew and know Chief Lawlor respect him greatly and welcome this appointment. >m. J. C.

CROSBIE: (MINISTER OF FINANCE): Mr. ~peaker, I would like to report to the House on the current status of the lahour dispute at the Newfoundland Farm Products Limited at Pleasantville. AN ]l_(lN. MEMBEP : Inaudible. }ffi. CROSBIE: It is important enough. I am reporting it as President of the Treasury Board who looks after the collective bargaining division. AN HON, MEMBER· Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Everything I do I get permission from the Premi~r. AN HON. MrMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Just as the honourable gentleman used to do. 1397

June 2. 1972 Tape 465 PK - 2 HR. CROSBIE: Now, Mr. Speaker, on Harch 1,negotiations started with the employees of the Newfoundland Farm Products Limited with respect to a new collective bargaining agreement. On May l,the Collective Bargaining Division on behalf of the government made the final proposal in these negotiations to the negotiating committee for the union, which was a branch of the Newfoundland Fishermen Farm and Allied Workers Union.

If that offer were accepted - Well first I better say that last year before the union was recognized, negotiations took place last year, I would like to remind the House that the average wage in the plant at Pleasantville was $1.65 per hour and that the rate of pay for the lowest paid classification was $1.10 per hour. As a result of last year's negotiations the average wa~e rose to $2.00 per hour, the rate of pay for the lowest paid classification was $1.50 per hour.

The increases granted last year averaged out at thirty-five cents an hour or twenty-two percent, ranging from twelve cents an hour to eip,hty"-one cents an hour or six percent to forty-eight percent. That was after last year's negotiations. On May l,our proposal to the negotiating·committee provided for a minimum increase of twenty cents an hour for all employees. They also agreed to make adjustments in rates for certain classifications which would provide increases ranging from thirty cents to fifty­ two cents an hour for the thirteen employees who were affected by those special adjustments.

In addition we agreed to grant two additional st&tutory holidays a year which would hr:tng the total to eleven statutory holidays a year. The union negotiating committee then called a meeting of their members on Tuesday, May 2 and put this proposal to a vote. At that meeting a majority at the meeting voted to accept that proposal. I believe the vote was thirty-five to eleven in favour of accepting that proposal. The eleven dissidents insisted that there he another meetin~ in connect1on with this proposal. At the second meeting 1398

June 2, 1972 Tape no. 466 Pagel Mr. Crosbie. our proposal was rejected by a majority of three or four people at the meeting. The strike was then called or they went on strike at that time and I believe it was Hay 4. They went back to work a few days later, uhrn it was agreed that further negotiations would take place. I might point out by the way, Mr. Speaker, that at that time or on May 1, the union was looking for twentv-eight cents an hour($.28) increase for the first year of an agreement as compared to our offer of twenty cents ($.20).

They went back to work after being on strike for some days or on May 4 and the representatives met with the representatives of the Treasury Board and then those meetings were adjourned to May 22~ On May 22 we made another offer, a better offer to the workers of Newfoundland Parm Products. They had said that their big objection to our offer of May 1 was that it was onlv Roing to be a one-year contract. To meet that objection we made an offer based on a two-year contract~ We offered them the same proposals with respect to the first year twenty cents (0.20) an hour and tb.e rest of it.

There are two statutory holidays this year , In the second year of the contract, with effect from April 1, 1973, they will automatically get a further twelve cents ($.12) an hour across the board with two additional statutory holidays in the second year of the contract, making thirteen statutory holidays in all. That proposal was taken to their membership and I do not believe any strike vote was taken. They just went on strike or recommenced the strike. As the House knows, Mr.

Speaker, we are all concerned very greatly about the effect of this strike on the farmers who use the facilities of Newfoundland Fann Products at Pleasantivlle, particularly my colleague, the Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources 1 under whom agriculture comes. As a result of this concern, we met yesterday morning with our people in the Treasury Board and with certain farmers and authorized them to contact the union again and to improve our offer in an attempt to see whether this could be resolved and the dispute settled. 1399

June 2, 1972 Tape no. 466 Page 2 HL Crosbie. Yesterday afternoon our representatives met representatives of the union. We increased the offer. We offer them an additional two cents, v~king it twenty-twD cents 7 ($.22) an hour this year 1 for this year 1 s contract and two additional statutory holidays for this year, making thirteen statutory holidays this year, not for the cecond year of the contract$ That proposal was taken back to the membership apparently this mornin~.

A vote was held this morni~g. not a secret ballot, a vote by show of hands 1 and was rejected by the employees of the union at Pleasantville, much to our disappointment. Now, Hr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that there are innocent third parties involved but I have to make the position of the government quite clear. There was a misleading report on radio today by the union business agent or president stating that they were waiting to hear a.gain from the Treasury ·Board, that they had rejected this for a better offer from the Treasury Board. The Treasury Board is not considering, Mr.

Speaker, any renewed offers or proposals in connection with the strike. We have made our latest proposal,yesterday. It is a good proposal and what 1400

June 2 FJ72 we would like to sec the un1on do, Pr, Ghairr:nn, is to conduct a secret ballot among the t:0rkers, the.i r h:1rr-cninr unit nt Plcamrntville to see uhcther this offer is accented or not,,not 2 ballot b7 shoe S0 that is the 0o~ition to dntc.

We wre extremely disnnpntntcd :0.t thin reasnnn.h1c offer, nnd we have r:one out of our w.ny to inc.rense the offer ;H•ai:n, 1:wc-ause of our con- cern for the broiler summarily not even by a secret ½allot J r.nn therefore on] v appccil to the r0mhcrs of the union at I'leafurntvi1le to recansl.dcr its latest rroposnl They lrnve had stnrt1 i.nrr n.dv;1nccc.1 nnd impr;s :rn,'. t-mrl· Jnr comb r.hms over the 1nst year and one'"lialf there. rccr:ms1dcr, to keep in rr,ind that the farmers nnd hO/! rirNlt1ct'rs cmd hroJ ler n-rodm:ers have been 1,adly affected Gy this nnd to he n.c2son;:iblc nnd to reconsider t1d.;; Jntc.st offer of the C.overnsent.

VR. NEARY· vr. Sneaker, if I IT1V m;;ke a hri.cf cnrrncnt on the statement iust made by the hon. t'inister of fi;mce and President 0f rhe Treasury [oard? ! would lil:e to say on t'chalf of ny collcap,ucs that it i::, unfortunate n.nd indeed trategic thet the Trc,:1sury Board was unnhle to rc-;,ch nµ.rcer--1:mt wit!1 the employees of Newfounrllnml ram-: Products U.mitcd in the rc.c2rt rmmt1 of n0r-otiations. I d0 not know, l1r.

Spen.1-·cr, U I shmdd 1ntcrrirrt frorr: whnt the hon. rdnister said that Trcnsury Bo.anl now intends to t:1!:c t-Lf' hard line that was stnted bv the Minister of Finnrn:e nhout n wed' ;,p-o. The nost recent offer nade hy the Trcnsury Tlo0rd, Mr.

Speaker, n.lthou2,h it 1:,cerns to be rather srnalJ and in.sirn:ifjcnnt 1 two cents in addition to what nlrr,ndv had heen 0:fercd plus n couple of extra statutory holidays, aLthm.1.r.h it s02ns rather snnl 1, l c1n inclined to half npree wi.th the minister that the r:'.1:-mbcrshin of the union should be given ;m opportunity to vote on the counter rrPpos;;il hy secret :1allot. I think this is fair and just and 1 think that the ncpoti.oting tem:i from the union would be well advised to put the proposal before their menbership and h::we it voted on by secret ballot. I think this J.s re~so.;,:1hlc. Then. }1r.

Speaker, if the employees then reject the offer I sincerely hope that the door will not be closed to further r;;_;p,otio.tlcns, Because,as my 1401

June 2, 1972 Tape 467 NB - 2 colleague, the member for Bonavista North, has pointed out a number of times from this Rouse) apart from the. general public there is a third pnrty in­ volved. the farmers, nnd some of these fnrmers, ?''r. Speal:er, proba.bly after this nresent weekend will stand to lose substantiallv. As a matter of fact, some of them riny become hrtnkrupt, if the strike is prolonged beyond the present weekend. So I hone that the minister will not slam the door in the worYers faceP, that if they do aizree to vote on the proposal hy secret ballot and they reject it, or I hope that they will accept it, but in the case that they reiect it that there will be 1402

June 2, 1972 Tape No. i;.68 l ronm for further negotiations nnd I hope that L1 the very near future, within the next couple of dn.y, T hope ovc.sr the t12ckcn.d, that an agreement cnn be reached with the er;-;ployeu; of !,:e::vfonndL1.nd Faro Products. Other-:isc, -...!r.

Spenkcr. the only other a1ternotivc thnt I can see is for the Tre:isury Hnsrd tc :,cccpt that wns nude by the enployces thcwselves to ,mblcct to voluntary arbitration. in ny remarks th;,t a most unusu;;l b:irr:J1ininp process; the union,on Nay J,uas asking for .fm:::rea:;c this vear o cir,ht cents :m hours and is now coming back ns1dn,; for nn increase of thirtv-t¼'o cents .an h0ur. So wherever reason i.s involved in th1.s pnrticulnr nep:otiation, "fr. Speaker, I lwve to pnint out that tt hn3 been very much on our side.

With respect to whether the door is closed nr not, the door is never c.losed lf the union hns sonethin,; re:1sonah1c tn suggest. But, \1r. Speaker, the only ones who lrnve been surgestlnp, anything in this impasse so far, is the government through the Treasury Board. As far as binding nrbitration is concerned, our policy is no different from the policy of the last ;,;ovcrnr,,cnt in that respect.

It would he a dan~crous precedent to have binding, nrbitratiun tn 2 r.1ntter of collective bnrgnininr, such ns this because it ls the negntion of the collective barr,nining process and for other rensons the horL gentleman knows. I can only say that I hope that this offer will be accepted, The door will not be closed at any time. Rut 1 just want to point out any misapprehension, the Treasury Board is not new cnnsidcd.ng nny new offer as was implied on radio today. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. THOMS: Nr. Speaker, I beg lenvc to present seven petitions on behalf of the residents of the Town of Newtmm.

Town of Pound Cove, the TO¼'Tl of Wesleyville, the Town of Brookfield 1 the Town of Pool's Islnnds, 1403

June 2, 1972 Tape No. 468 NC - 2 the Tawil of Badger 1 s Ouay, and the Town of Valleyficld. These seven petitions, ~r. Speaker, pray thnt this government will reconstruct and pave the highway from Trinity to Newtoivn. "1r. Speaker, the former Liberal administration had made great strides in our province and indeed in my district, in upgrading and pnvtng: roads. Of course they did not really upp:rade any roads becaur:;e there were no ronds,because there were no roads there when they took over,to upgrade. However, they have build a tremendous amount of roads.

They have gone so far this last few years to upgrade some twenty-seven miles of the hip,hway on the north side of Bonavista Bay. We have also, on the same highway, ten miles of paved road, The people from the Valleyfield-Newtmm area appreciate this very much. For this road is one of the thinr,s in this century that have isolated them from the rest of the world. They are {!Uite grateful, quite happy with it and they use this road extensively. Now they ask that the remainder of this road be reconstructed and paved. I hope. !-1r. Speaker, that the Hinister of Highways, will find money in 1404

June 2, 1972. Tnpe 469. Page 1. this Budget although it :is some:.;rhat reduced this year, wi 11 find money enou~h to grant the prayer of this petttion~ hecnuse this is very urgent. Our people l.-rnve been driving over gravel roads nou for fifteen years, Of course that is how long they have had it, They never had a road before. Thev believe that in this day and age it is absolutely necessary they believe, and I believe also that it is a"must" that they be brought into the seventies with a properly navecl hi.01nrnv. So, i.fr. Speaker, I i-n.1rablv support the prayer of this petition. I mav add \Jr.

Speaker, thnt nlthou~h the man who promincd that this highway would be paved within the next couple of years is not today in th-ts House. Even though he was a minister, at thnt time a minister of the government~ when he said that this hi,~ht-rnv would be upgraded and paved. 1 s=ncerely hope that the Department of i1ig 1·wnvs have taken into account to have the cost of this highway in their reduced Budget. ~r. Speaker, 1. ask that these petitions be placed on the Tahle of thJs House and passed on to the department to which it re.1ntes. MR,WTNSOR: Mr. Speaker, I, hav1nr been a nat.Lve son of Weslevville.

I would be amiss in mv dutv if I did not rise to support the netition presented by my colleague the nwnnher for Ilona.vista fJorth. Having travelled that road scores and scores of times I certainly agree now that this road should be upgraded and paved. Not only should this road be upgraded and paved but the.re are roads in the District of Fogo, the Cander Hav rond and nl.l through the communities of Gander Bay, Carrnanville, Musgrave Harbour and so on, The Liberal Government bu:Ht the roads.

I think the pre.sent government can do nothing less now than to upgrade those roads and kee;:- the neople from choking by dust rmd have them pnved. mud1 pleasure in supporting this petition. 1 certainly have MR. AYLWARD; Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present n petition fror:1 the 1405

June Z, 1972. Tape 469 Page 2, residents of Mount Arlington Heights. The prayer of the petition is similar to the pra:•cr of the previous petitioners. The road in the area, really it is a road through the community of Mount Arlington Heights.be upgraded and paved. Mr. Speaker, the matter came before the Minister of Highways only about three or four weeks ago when a delegation from that community as well as long Harbour visited here and met with him. It was understood at that time that the only road to be paved in the area was the road in Long Harbour. Mr. S~eaker, t strongly suggest and submit to the 1406

June 2, 1972 1 Tape 470, Page government that this partintlar road. is only n vc::ry, very short distance, appro;-:imntely one and a-half to t,;.-;o nUcs, that it is right through ;,, community. Uwt there ,ire residents livLn~ on ciJch side of the road.

In summer the dust sit,ntion is intolerable. in ,-!inter the rood is completely impossible. 1n fact, l know the Minister of Provincial Affairs is quite familiar with this, because he wrts obliged to leave his car there on one or:c.aslon during the winter, because he could not get his car back up over the road, Since the road is being paved in Long tfarbour n.nd since the paving equipment is in the area, 1 stron!!:1Y sup.gest that the department give serious consideration to paving the road this year. Mr. Speaker, the petition is signed by approximately 180 residents of the area.

I st ronµ:ly support the prayer of the petition and ask that it be tabled and referred to the dep::n·tment to which it relates, MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, 1 would like to support the petition presented by the member for Placentia East on behalf of the 180 of his constituents in Mount Arlington Heights, in the District of Placentia East. I sympathize with these people, ~r. Speaker, and I must also say that I do not envy the hon. mmnhcr in trying to get the money out of the Hinistcr of Finn.nee to get the prnyer of this petition answered.

W11cn we look nt the estim:Jtf',S, we see that road reconstruction nnd maintenance for the coming fiscal year has teen cut by over $20 million. The only thing I can say, !1r. Speaker, is that I wish the hon. member well. If he can convince or persuade or influence the Minister of Finance to give him the money to get this road upgraded in lfount Arlington Heights, then I will say, Sir, that he deserves the Distinr,uished Order of the British Empire. llO:,J, A.J .HtJRPHY (Minister of Provincial Affairs): Mr. Speaker, since my 1407

June 2, 1972, Tape 470, Page 2 -- apb name was hrought into this matter with reference to being marooned on the other side of the mountain, 1 would like to add m;• support, not only to this petition hut to the very many. :~e have been hearing of the utmost ne~lect during the past fifteen or sixteen years of the road,:;. It is just a pity Mr. Speaker, that we do not have "~:andrake the Magician" !'iinister of Finance instead of the hon. member for St. John's West, then we could do them all. ll0~4 '- T. IHCKt:Y ("Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to add my support to this petition. In doing so, Sir, I think it is about time that this House took something into consideration, and that is the attempt by some gentlemen on the other side, and particularly the member for Bell Island,to lay all the blame at the feet of the Minister of Finance. It is most unfair, and it is about time this House dealt with it. The blame should be laid at the feet of the government if there is any blame. If there is any blame it should be blamed on the former administration. '.!k.

SPEAKER: Ordet'! order! \"~~ },J-t(,ILQ!']~; To a point of order, Sir, there is no debate allowed on a petition,as Your Honour well knows. Also, the only thing that you are permitted to do i.s to present a petition or support a petition. There is to he no debate nor no personal recriminations or acrimony across the House. MR. HICKEY: Will you keep that in mind over there? MR, ~,f)WE: I will keep it in mind, sure. On motion petition received. 1408

.June "' 1977 Tape 4 71 JH - l ;·l(Yfl(YJS : ·----~--~ Nr, Speaker. 1 rive not-tee thnt I w.Ul on tomorrow nsk leave tn introduce. a bill. ··An Act To Incorporate The '.i0t-7fnundland And Labrador Ar;;ateu:r Sports Federation,·' ;md on hch,1lf of the honourable the Minister of Health,:; hill, 'An Act To Ar:cml The. ~t. Clare 1 s 'Mercy Hospital 1nc.orporation Act, 1960. Hr.

Speaker, I serve notice that I Hill on tor::orrow present n bill, ''An Act To Amend The ?rotcctinn Of Anir::als Act q11esti0n number (J2) ask hv the honourable r:c:mbcr for Fo00 the ans;,;er to (1) is nil, (2) ni1 and (1) nil ;:md copies n.re licrc to be tabled. Mr. Speaker, in answer to question numhcr (38), :i.t is 0uite a dcta11ed 1w2stion and the nnswers are quite detni1etl. They are printed and I submit theri for tabling. DOODY: Hr. Speaker, i,n ansuer to crucstion number (26), I will take thiG :is notice and ns soon ns th<: necessary :i.nformnt:ion is available it wiU be tabled in this hnnournblc Hom:;e.

Hr. Speaker, 1 would like to give the answer to question number (35). The answer to the first p;:1rt is there are six persons ;mrl the names are ns follows; Bernard Foley, Donna Leawood. Elaine Evans, James Robins, Frederick Cook and Maybella Clarke. The answer to question (2) is one person from - NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the honourable Minister had better table the answers because otherwise he is going too fast and we will not be nh1c to take it down. MR. SENIOR: I am going to table them as wcH ns read ther1e Prorr:oted 1409

June 2, 1972 Tape 471 JM - 2 to accountant 11 there was one person, two people promoted tn clerk stenographer 11, one person promoted to regional development director 1, one person promoted to statistician 1 and one to clerk stenographer 111. The answer to question number (3) is the amount of money involved in the promotion of accountant 11 is $157.00, clerk stenographer 111 is $767.00, clerk stenographer 11 is $441.60. statistician 1 is S669.00 and regional development director 1 is $1391.00, with a total of -53,/125.00. MR. E.lLWINSOR: Mr.

Speaker, before you call Orders of the Day I would like to direct a question to the honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. Can the minister inform the House if it is the intention of the governnent to carry on with the installation of water and sewer at Musgrave Harbour because I have heard rumors that it might be discontinued? !IO~OURABLE HAROLD A. COLLINS (MlliI.S_TER OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS A.~D JlO_USING): Mr. S-penker, there are about seventy or eighty programmes, on-going_ programmes from last year.

There is nothinf': in the Budi_;et for it as you can see because there was nothing budgeted for it last year either, as that was not the way it was done. He are tnking a look at all of the programmes nnd hopefully we will be in a position to make an announcement soon. ~.__WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. I think the financing of the installation of the system here is arranged through bank loans rather than showing it in the Estimates or the Budget Speech. EJB..:........~,Q,l:..LIN~-~ Hr. Speaker, last year all financing was done through short-,term loans,as the honourable member must realize.

All I can say is we are taking a look at all of the prograrm11es and just as soon as we are in a position to tell all of the people we will do so. MR. ROWE(W.N.): Hr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the 1410

June 2, 1972 Tape t, 71 honourable Minister of Social Services and Rehnh-ilation.

The question is not entirelv unexpected hv him hecausc we hz.ve discussed the matter on other occasions. 1 woul('. ask the ninister thnt whcther 1 in view of the fact that forty new welfare officers are r:oinr; to he nrrpointecl npparently and in view of the fnct that the minister has received a petition signed hy r;;ost, if not nll, nf the restdents of Ln.Sct0 in White Bay SouthJwhethe:r he intends to repliJcc the we1fnrc officer vho wan recently moved from L,1Sde to Bnic Ve rte, D <listcmce of fortv miles between the tuo commm,:-itic>s .anrl over some of the worst dirt hi.rhway in the prov·!nce? MR.

T!_lCJSf~: Mr. Speaker, the sftuation with rep:anls to the changes in the rcr,ional office at L:1Scie waB brought on by proposals of ny officinls to upgrade the service ;;nil to economize. The rensons r:iven by my officials I cannot disrmtP until T hnve had a chance to give them an opportunity to test them o:r prove them. 1 believe I havP inforr::ecl someone in my honourable friend's office to this effect and also thot the ch;mr:e ts being tried clurino? the best season of the year, in the sutnr.1.er.

Tf the .service-, do not improve anrl if there is no savings or if those reasons are not well-founded for the change then certainly we will revert had· to the previous system,but the additional staff has nothing to do with it. !ffi.. HARVEY; Mr. Speaker, l would like. to direct a question to the hommrnble Minister of Finance. fln May 5 or 6 the minister made an announcement in regard to 200 or 300 jobs thnt would be availnb1e at Goose flny for the Labrador Linerboard Mill.

Now to date I inforn:ed the people that I represent in Labrador South and to date they cannot seem to find out who will be doing the hirinr for these jobs, whether it will he the Labrador Linerboard Limited, a three "L'' job or the Manpower. Seeing that the iobs are few and far between nt Churchill Falls this year,-wherc a lot of the people from ny ttrea worked.., they 1411

-Tune 2, 1972: Tape 4 71 would like to know so that they can r,et their names in :ln advance as to what company vill he doing: the hiring for those jobs, 3M - 4 MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Spenker, I will have to take that as notice because I aB not sure whether it :l.s Cnnada }.!anpower or the company hut I will pet the information for the honourable member. 1412

June • 197:, HR. Mr, C.i.e:rnon there on the sn.ne thin;' f kneu tint tl+ renlv-r;, for Lnhr:1dor were very, ver., _ _e nn:x:ious and poss1b1v <!.' cnuld r\Cl thcr11, Mr. Speaker at the time, tlut thc-.y ;;re JnoV.lnr:i: at. the thini; ·vc-rY very, carefully hut it is s0mething that i· Ju:;t not yet je1Icd they hope from coastal Labrador nrc:n to try tn brfn? ;is rr1,1ny peor,lc in :u they cnn.

T nm sure the 'iinfrh i 1 f Fin:mce :is wa-ltin;> for .1 ;_[PfLnite answer bi,t hnsieal ly it w:w ust a converszitirin tht1t we hclC pcr·uininr; to the residents of Lahr;ulnr, I have a question directed to the hon, :-Hnister or Lnhrndor Affairs, in effect the Labrndor Linerbourd Liwl.te.d Hill be hirinr, these men and preference will be given to the peopl.c of the Lnbrador cnnst, is that what you so.id? .::!}{_. Mt1RPHY; As 1. ::;aid, tbis i1, not ministerial hnt 1 dropped in there to check over the uholc. thing.

Basically they have nut yet consolidated their hLrtng prn.ctices, they vill report tn the minl.ster, Rut they are hnpinf!, this is their long-term ohiect., tc emplnv as many as they can fron that pnrticulnr are<i pf ctFH>tal. Labrador. M"rL NEARY: Mr, Speaker, I would like to direct a question to my sparring partner, the hon, Minister of Firumu::>. 1 would like to ask the. hon. minister :if the government is cons-ldering extending the mothers I allowance because of the announcement by J. W.

Hillard. the Deputy :"!inister of National Heal th and Welfare, that the family income security programme, which is really the new family allowance plnn will be delayed for one year as outlined in today 1 s eveninr, newspaper. 1413

June 2, 1972 Tape No. 472 NC - 2 '1R. CROSBIE: Hr. Speaker 1 I have not seen the statement l:hat- the hon. gentleman refers to, but certainly we are prepared to reconsider anything if that becomeB necessary and we will sdvc that consideration. Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. temperacental Minister of Finance. Will the minister inform this honourable House as to the exact status of the loan of approximately $12 million to Eastern Provincial Airnays mnde by the government in 1971?

Has the airline, Mr, Speaker, used this money for the purposes expressed in its original application, that is to repair its presently three jet aircraft and also to purchase a new DC-9 jet aircraft? !-!R. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, that is a question that would be much better answered by the hon. gentleman who was in the government at the time the loan was arranged. V.nyhe if he. would put that question on the Order Paper, I am sure we can get the answer but I" have no knowledge of it whatsoever. If it is put on the Order Paper we will get the information. MR. NEARY: Hr.

Speaker, this is a supplementary question, did I understand the minister to say that he would get the information'? MR. CROSRIE: Put the question on the Order Paper, I will get the infonnation. HR~EARY.:,_ Hr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Acting Premier- and I am'not qutte sure, Hr. Speaker, who the Acting Premier at this nOt1L'nt i.s. ls it the hon. Minister of Finance? Is it the hon. HinL1tcr of Justice or the hon. Hinister of Provincial Affairs, C'2uld the House Lender indicate who the Acting Premier is, \fr. Speaker? 1-fR. ~RSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I think we have gone on long enough today.

We have consumed about an hour ••• HR. NEARY: No, Hr. Speaker, we are not living in Russia. 2IB• MARSHALL: On a Point of Order, Mr. Speaker. 1414

June 2. 1972 Tape Ho. 472 NC - 3 MR. NEARY: We are not behind the iron curtain, Mr. Speaker. Could we have order please? MR. PARSHALL: On a Point of Order, Hr. Speaker, I have the floor and the hon. menber for Bell Island is a1::1re of that, and I now move that the Order of the Day he read. We have consumed npproximntely one hour, nhout twenty or thirty minutes in oral questions :md there is other business to be done,so I move that the Orders of tile Dn,y now be rend, MR._,.,:11,EA,RY: Mr. Speaker, we have not spent :my longer than five or six minutes. ?-fR. MARSHALL: On a Point of Order, :1r.

Speaker, under Standing Order 21, that motion has preference over everyth.inp:. MR. SPEAKER: It has been moved and seconded that we move on with the Orders of the Day. 1415

June 2, 1972 Mr. Gillett:. Tape no~473 Pagel - MRW The procceedings of the government - am I disqualified to ask a question now which is very vital? MR. SPEAKER: It is moved and seconded that we proceed to the orders of the day. Those in favour 0 aye. 11 Contrary 11 nay. 11 Carried. AN HON. MEMBER: "Nay. 11 nNay. 11 MR. SPEAKER: Division. Call in the mewbers. Those in favour of the motion please rise: of Mines, Agriculture and Resources; AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). HR. SPEA¥.ER: Order please! The hon. Minister Those in favour of the motion please rise; The hon.

Minister of Mines, Agriculture and Resources, the hon, Minister of Provincial Affairs, the hon~ Minister of Community and Social Development, the hon. Minister of Education, the hon. Mr. Ottenheimer, the hon. Minister of Justice, the hon. Mr, Marshall, the hon. Minister of Fi11ance, the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, the hon. Minister of Social Services and Rehabilitation, Mr. Rousseau, Mr. Reid, Mr. Stagg, Mr. Barry, Mr. Aylward, the hon. Minister of Fisheries, Mr. Earle, Mr. Wells, Mr. Evans, Mr. Dunphy, Mr. Howard, Mr. Wilson, Mr. Young and Mr. Peckford.

Those against the motion please rise: Mr. Gillett, Mr. Woodward, MR. W. N. Rowe, Captain Winsor, Mr. Neary, Mr, Thoms, Hr. Harvey and Mr. F. B. Rowe. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! I declare the motion carried. On motion that the House go into Committee of the Whole on Supply) Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MINES, AGRICULTURE AND RESOURCES - ITEM VIII: l would like to say one or two words, Sir, with reference to a few points that we.re raised yesterday. I was requested by the hon. 1416

June 2, 1972 Tape no. 473 Page 2 Mr. Doody. Leader of the Opposition to provide the actual estimates for 1971-72. rather than the revised estimates as shown. These were not ready when 1 left my office to come up here~ However, I have asked my off~cials to send them to this House as soon as they are prepared. The same thing holds true for the list of staff members in last year's department. These also will be provided to this House as soon as they are prepared~ There were several points raised by members of the other side of the House yesterday.

There was some reference by the hon. member for Labrador North.,_ In his concern for his district, he referred to some hopes of oil discoveries or hopes of discoveries in the Lake Melville area. l have checked this out with the people in the department and they share my hopes that there is some truth in this rumour but there is no substantial fact involved. With regard to the radium exploration developments which he spoke of, they are indeed under federal control and the Province of Newfoundland has no say in either the granting of exploration licences or export permits.

There was a request also from the hon: member for Labrador North with respect to the timber concessions in the Lake Melville area. He was understandably concerned about the ownership of these concessions and as was suggested by the Minister of Justice these concessions in that area have indeed reverted back to the Crown~ and he need have no fear in that regard. The present administration will make quite certain that they are not passed out helter-skelter as has happened in the past. 1417

June 2, 1972 Tape 474 PK - 1 HR. DOODY: The forest tenure situation as referred to by the honourable men.her for WhJte Bay South in which he expressed his disappointment that ve had not made re.ore progress to date and I share his dis­ appointment and T wish that T could stand up in this Honourahle House anrl say, Sir, that we had during the past several nonths corrected all the problems in that situation. Inaudible. MR.

DOODY: Not renlly,only in as far as reviewing what had gone on and trying to familiarize ourselves with it and trying to find the right approach to this enonnous problem which is of such ~rave concern to the province. I think these are the major points. 'rhe Julienne Lake deposits, the iron ore deposits are also mentioned hy my honourable friend from Labrador North. These deposits and the concessions :i.nvolved are also under consideration by the officials in my department as well as by the economic development people.

I can only assure him that when these desposits are developed I would feel certain thnt the Province of Newfoundland will receive a great deal more than the twenty-two cents a ton royalities they get from its existing deposits in the Habush area. I think, Mr. Chairman, that about finishes my remarks in this 801-01 area and I pass it on. Hr, Chairman, there are one or two remarks I would like to make,very hricfly t hopeJabout one mntter raised dealing with the minister's salnries yesterday, like the honourable the House Leader who is not in his seat at the moment.

Some remarks were made concerning the interim oil permits granted under Order-in­ Council in the previous government that I like him cannot let go~ There has to be further comment and a further statement made on them. 1418

June 2. 1972 PK - 2 ::nth he, that: is the Honourable House Leaaer,and the Minister of Justice got to their feet yesterday after 1 had made n remark for the henefit of the Hinistsr of Aµ.:ricultnrc, the Minister of Hines rather in this case, to the effect that interim permits which we.re granted 2s a result of Order-in-Councils could be rescinded or cancelled as a result of Onlcr-in~CotmciJs and that perhaps this would be the best method to take if so;11e of the companies or any of the companies whtch have rece:i.ved interim permits are. not living up to their good faith and oblig.:it1.ons in that field.

I did not refer spec:if1.cnlly to anybody, Slw.i.ieen, Doyle, Ami.cu or anybody elt;e. T na<le the stiite.nf:nt in respect of any company which was not in the view of the govern.went or in view of the department perhaps n le.gttirn:1te prospector in the field and I thought that I would make that suggestion that in that case. these interim permits he suspended or cancelled or rescinded after reasonable notice is given especially if there were third pin:ties involved.

This brought the houournble House Leader and the honourable Min:i.ster of Justlce to their foet in a huff and they nade so:ne. very derogatory and controv>1rsial n.:.mTrks concerning this whole que.stLm of the rrantinp: of oil leases, interin permits rurher than leases under Order-in-Council" Now I do not mind particularly the remarks made by the honourable the House Lender. He has never been in a government in this House prior to the present aJmini.stration being formed. Also, Sir, his character or mentality or his attributes are such that he generally takes a small-minded attitude anyt,:ay.

Any man who would relish the idea of becoming the chief inquisitor~ the man whc seeks after and sought after the job of investigation into what has previously gone on - investigation may indeed be needed. All I am cow-J11enting on is the fact that a nu:rmber or a minister of the government actually actively seeks 3fter this positionigives some indication as to his mentality and hL:, character and the attrihut0.s which he possesses. 1419

June 2, 1972 Tape 4 7ft PK - 3 MR. ROWE, _ _\'-1 .N. It 1.s not a tern that I ordinarily use hut 1 hnve heard the tern 1'Witch Hunt tHllien used in respect to the honourable gentle.man, if that ts unparliamentary I will withdraw it ir.i.medi.ately, 'fr. 1'hairmnn.

It is something which has heen a;iplied to the honourable gentleman so I will net even deal with his statement and he has a perfect right as well to make the. statement he did because he comes into thi.s House with relatively clean hands in respect of thts whole position of interim permits being granted to companies to prospect on the Continental Shelf of Newfoundland and Labrador. Hut, Mr.

Chairman, the honourable Minister of Justice slyly and hypocritically stands in this House yesterday and piously proclaims that this province hns been plundered by the previous administration in respect of oil permits given or prospecting permits given, hypocritically and slyly p.:ets up in this House and makes that statement. Again.

I would probably use the word dishonestly were it not unparliamentary and I uould not use the word, but he gets up in this House and makes statements ahout the previous administration fully knowing,Sir,or he ought to have known that the great bulk, the great majority of these interim orders, these permits were given over the per.iod of time from 1966, 1967 and 1968. I have not had the time or the occasion to research the problem thoroughly. I have had this morning as a matter of fact.

I could not do much last nip:ht because people -were not availahle, but this morning 1 looked up some of these matters, some of the minutes-in-Council, minutes of the council,the Executive Council, some orders-in- council and got whatever information t could get by word of mouth from people who should know. It turns out that the great bulk of the approvals for interim permits, for the exploration and the prospecting for oil and .natural resources on the Continental Shelf, were given in 1966, 1967 and 1968. Some were given before, some uere given afterwards. 1420

June 2. 1972 Tape 47!, PK - 4 HR. ROHf W.f-!, For 21;0::iple, in Fchnmry of 1067 two intc:rit1 permits r think were granted to .Shaheen companies. T do not know the name of the companies involved. Shnhccn conpnnies t-ms the vay it was expressed to ne. Tn a ninute~of~co mc.tl dated Septenber 6. 1966 there ,ns approval gtven in principle for :1 pcrnit to be granted to Shaheen companies for exploration from Cape Chld1e" to the mouth of White Bay that vast under ... sen territory. The approval ·was given on September 6, 1966.

Tn Decenher 1967 2.nd in 1965 and in July 196? orders-in-council o:r pernits ::cs a result of the orders-i.n-cound.1 were approved in respect of the Doyle c0m11ardcs, in one case NALCO July 1969 for them to explore and iH"'OOf")fXt for oil on the Continental Shelf. Mr. Chairman, I 1as a me:sber of the previous administration,teke full responsibility for ny share of the responsibility, collective responsibility for t,;hat tnmsp:ired while I was a m2mher of that previous administration. There has be.en some attempt made to Pake the 1421

Tape 475 NB - l Liner-board situation such thnt nc:-d:;ern of this House. arc tryJng to crawl out from under and tryinp; to hlame the previous Prenier of this Province. I utterly condemn thnt attitude and tlrnt runour now. 1 am willin?, and able to accept full responsihility. If only the hon, }1:1.nister of Justice, who is present in the House nov, uould have the intestinal fortitude and the moral coura.i:::e to do the snme thing I he would he a lot hetter off.

For durinp: the period of ttne that the hoth of these permits, these interim permits, were piven. lte Has the /'finister of JustJce in the previous ndministration. As such the !5 inistcr of Just]ce in the previous administration, nt that time the hon. member and I, l was not going to mention that because it seems again like crawling out from under. lmt I and the. hon. rr:c,!Jher, the hon. Leader of the Onposition, evcryhody on this side of the House, everyhody on this side of the House were hock be.nchers. And the hon. Minister of Finance, the hon. member for Fortune Bay .nnd the hon.

Minister of Justice were members of the P:overnment which r,a.ve the interim permits in a scurrilous and plunderinp, fashion. to use the words of the 110n. Pinister of Justice. And for him to corne in here, Sir, and to slyly and hypocritically get up and piously conderm the previous administration for what it did in that respect stretches your sense of outrnge to the limit. The hon. minister is well aware a.s i1 rneMher of that administration during that period of time he has to share the hlamc or the credit, whatever is <lue in respect of these interim permits.

But, Sir, further ,the minutes of council, the minutes,as a result of orders-in­ counci1 in which these pendts were approved or authorised to be made out, all of them I bell.eve say nt the end, the said permit, amt I am nuoting as ncc11rnte}y as I can, to he issued suhjcct to such terms and conditions as the hon. Mintster of }fines Agriculture and Resources in consultation with the hon. f 0 1inister of Justice. So aside from havin~ to share a portion of the respons- ibility ns an ordinary cabinet minister which I would be glad to do if I had been n minister at thnt time,~ the hon.

Minister of Justice also has to ½ear the rcsnonsibility for beinr n ninister of a department named in the minutes,, in the ordcr~in-council, wherein the Finister of Pines Agriculture and Resources 1422

l, 1977 Tnpc !175 lmd to consult with him in order to dr:n; up the rules nnd rc[;ulathrns in respect of these pcr~its. Now, Sir, I have. 0ivc.n sonc cx:2r:1ples of pe.nrdts or orders-· in-coi.mc:i.l 2nd minutes of council in which aµprcvo.l is given to various comp::mi.Ps* I z have not given nll. Dbviously there nrc very Dnny of then, There are other areas which were approved in principle by an order-in-council, hut in respect of which no permit, no interin. permit or no pcrnit of any kind t<:as ever is:::med.

I do not know the dates of these Dec:1m;c. ! have: not been able to do any resenrch into iL f1a.ybe sone were done during sv term of office.

I do not recall, nui tc honestly. tut my st :1 tencnt which I made yesterday st il.1 ob ta ins 1 nmne.ly that l f the people who hove TJCtTiHs or who hnve n.pprova.l in nrinciple from the government to do e:x:ploratfon work and prospecting If they rire not doinr their _iob in good cu:ncel them, without a cent of recompense, There is no dnnp:er that this government would be accused of bcinr, a Bcmana Republic if it is done in rood faith and on facts which are available to the government.

But, Sir, I have to repeat that 1 cannot tolerate as u men.her of the House or ns a member of the former administratiori the scurrilous nnd hypocritical tyne of attack which the Pinistcr of Justice made. yesterday concernini,; these permits. And, Sir, I do not know, but wnyhe,as the Editor of the. ''Daily News' stated today,perhaps a royal commission enquiry is needed into these oil lenses. I certainly would welcome one.

I arn sure the Editor of the "Daily News' who was the Hinister of t1ines during the last three vc.ars but who wns not the Hinister of Mines during the period that the bulk of these things were issued, would welcome one as well. I am sure he sleeps easily at night in respect of most if not all of these permits and these orders-in-council. And, Sir, I do not know, perhaps it would be if I were to publish, make puhlic, ordcrs-in­ council or papers to the Executive Council or minutes of th.:0 Executive Council, perhaps 1 would he guilty of a crir:inal offence under the.

Official Secrets Act, hec;.rnsc ! swore an oath of secrecy. But tf scurrilous accusntions arc going to he 1423

June 2. 1972 Tripe 475 NB - J made by nresent nemhers of this rovernment ,inclmlinp: the }{in::i.ster of Justice, hypocritic accusations anJ sly accnsntions in nn effort to r:c.t out of any bln..11e or culpability or responsibility hir.iself, I will have no hesi t:; tion, Hr.

Chairman, in brinp:inr before. this House. and lnyi.ng on the tnble of the Rouse every ninnte. of council which I have. in posscsr;ion, or which I can lny my hands on whether I am in contravention of any Dfficinl Secret Act or not, because I will not tolerate that !:,ind of ;:m attack and I 1rnve to defend my own inte?rity and the inte;;rity of ny colleagues and I have to hrinr to the public notice the stnp1e facts surroundtnrr these thj_nps. The Minister of Jm:tice would perhnps be wlsely advised to do the same thing.

Tf there is blame a.nrl respons­ ibility to take,whotevcr portion of tlwt blame or resronsihi1ity which is due to him, I would submit, Sir, that if there is blanc and rc~•ponsil 1 ility he has to bear a verv rreat portion of it. Hr. Chairman, that seems to be nn unusual 1424

turn of events. r'or two years I snt on ttw opposite side of this House. toscther with the hon. the mcmher for Fortune Bay a.nd others ubo had previously served in the Smallwood administration.

Every time we opened our mouths to Cr'itizc, every th:e we tnbled :1 question in this House, the then Leader of the Government, t( the desk thumping of everyone. s•:hc sat nn that side said, "Ah! you cannot mention anything that went on in Cabinet, adnrLnistrntion is of a collective organization, and the admini;stration, the government itself takes full responsibility." Of cnurcc, it does, I would not t-1;:1nt nny hon. member of this Ho 'SC or any ne:nbcr of the public of Newfoundland to think th2.t I am trying to evade any responsibilities that 1 had when T was minister of the Crown.

The point that the people Qf Newfoundland must know and must know very clearly and the thing that initiated it was vcste.nlav when I heard the hon. the member for St. Barbe South - or White Gny South, cominr, up and suggesting that t-Je now cancel them if they are wronp:_., when he knows as well ,:15 I know1 that they are wrong.

When he. knows, and when we had to listen shortly before thnt to a statement from another hon. met!lber on the opposite sidei that this govcrnnent is chasing away business from this province 1 bec:iusc of its attitude towards buslnessnen seekini-: to come here~ I repeat what I said yesterday again nov~ that these permits, and in particular the permits that were farmed out between October 28, 1971, which is a rather significant date.,. AN HO'.'./. MEMBER: Do you have them? The Chairman has them and January of this year, had portions of our offshore mineral rights to innocent purchasers for value. They, Hr.

Chairman, should not he penalized if they bought then and acquired them in that state of innocence. HR. ROWE (W.N.); If they arc legitimate concerns, sure. MR. HICKMAN: And if they are legttinate concerns, What the policy of this government, the policy of this which I too have to 1425

June 2, 1972, Tape 476 Page 2 -- apb assume full responsibility for as a member, is that we are not going to pen1it any further plundering of our offshore mineral rights. )lr. Chairr:1an. when I see what is happening and the anxiety that is being shown by the other provincial governments in the Atlantic Provinces 1 I welcome. the decision of this administration under your guidance, Hr. Chairman, to conduct a complete review, not only of the permits that have been issued and farmed off out all our offshore mineral policies.

Do not let anybody get on with this nonsense that Alex Hickman or anyone else i.s tryinfj to avoid any responsibility for what went on when 1 was in the Snallwood administration. Far from it, we do not need a lecture on the responsibility and the collective responsibility of government. But, ~lr. Chaim.an, I want to serve notice thnt there is no way that I aw going to he handcuffed from criticizing past policies of government because t happened to be a member of government from September 1966 to August or September or Or:tober of 1969.

Hhut the people of this province. must be made aware of, are what we consider to be the mistakes of the previous adninistration,,and what they are far more interested in are the ,,ures that we have to offer to coke care of the mistakes that were caused at that time. This we are prepared to do, but we will not get onto it if we have to listen to the kind of nonsense that we have been listening to. HR, EARLE: Hr. Speaker, as my name was mentioned in this particular debate, I think I have good reason to rise and defend myself on similar grounds as the Minister of Justice.

The hon. junion member for White, B:?y tforth uho just spoke, recognizes full well the position of the former members of the Smallwood Government. The great difference, Hr. Chairman, which he always fails to mention, which members on that side foil to r:iention, is the fact that n few of us when we saw that things were going wrong. for manY reasons, includ:i.ng this sort of a deal we are referring to today, for many reasons,we l1ad the intestinal fortitude to 1426

hme 2, 1972, T:rµc i;/6 Pwgc 1 -- npb resign. I for one said to tltc then Pr:Lmc Minister when I gave hiD my rcs'igrntion - tbe then Premier, th.at I considered him no longer to be fit tn govern the Province of Newfoundland. This was supported hy many, many rensons.

Continuous disagreemlint, n.s l said in the debate on the Speech from the Throne, 1 .said; 'Nay God and may the people of Newfoundland forgive me for many of the things to which I agreed under the oath of Cabinet solidarity." It is a well known fact that as a member of the government~ whether you disagree or agree in Cabinet, one must stick by the party and one must be loyal to the Cabinet of which 'Jne is a memher. l'ntil such time as I handed the rt,;slgnation 1 my resign;;.U.on,to the. then leader of the p,overnment, notice, that once I resigned all bars were down.

Since that duy I have ceased at no effort to criticize the policies of that government and I shall continue to do so.

As I a.gain during the period of my resignntion, when I was asked on a T,V.appearance whether if I had the choi.ce I would give the then leader of government the opportunity ta continue to lead or if I were running a government would I ask him to be part of it, 1 said; '!Yes, as chief szilesmun. ' 1 Because. the hon. member well knows the ability of the lute lender of govc1-n.rnent to be. n salezm:11.L He. not only fooled the people of Newfoundland, but in many cases fooled the members of his cabinet.

I do not think any of us can escape the responsibility for having gone along with that and I accept full rcsponsibili.ty for the period that I was a member of that cabinet. Hr. Cha1rman, there comes an end to all things. The bars are down and the gates have been opened and now we can discuss on a sensible level what we hope to do for the future of Newfoundland. In those days you could not. From here on in. I give due not.ice to this House and to all the members on the other side that I will do my utmost to discredit the past government to which I was loyal for a number of years. 1427

June 2, 1972, Tape 476, Page 4 -- apb I gave due notice, I ~ave it promptly to the leader of that government and I told him; "From here on I will do just that.tt I feel shame nor no shame whatsoever in so doing. I handled the thing ethically and properly and to the man's face. Therefore, when we come to discuss matters of this nature, oil leases and so on, we can disclose and we can say at this stage in history that we are in entire disagreement with the way they were handled in those days. We accept responsibility for the fact that as members fo that cabinet and in solidarity of that cabinet we agreed with it.

But this sort of foolish argument holds no place in this House. Today conditions are entirely different. We are now able to speak our minds freely and we shall do so. Therefore, on issues of this type or any other issues, let us not hear any more of this nonsense about what went on ln the past, where members were and where they sat and what they were responsible for. Of course we were responsible, of course we accept responsibiltty, but that does not mean that we are not now able to criticize the policies which perhaps then we disagreed with but were not able to say.

I for one indicated my disagreement by resigning. I should like to make that very clear. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who just took his seat has testified and I presume now he assumes that he has been saved. Mr. Chairman, the prints of his fingernails are still in the desk down in his office, where he tried to hang on. He was booted out and the hon. member knows it. His colleagues lost confidence in him and he had to leave. ;m. A,J .MURPHY: On a point of order, Hr. Chairman. MR. MARSHALL: Point of order, Mr. Chairman, point of order. This has ••• SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible) MR.

A.J.MURPHY: I rose On a point of order to want to know when we are going to get on wii.:h the estimates. That is my point of order. 1428

June 2, 1972, Tape 476~ Page 5 -- apb MR. CHAIRHAN: Order~ order! Did the hon. Hinister of Provincial Affairs have a point of order? MR. MURPHY: I want to know when we are goinp; to get back to rhc estimates. HR. MARSHALL: The noint of order is this, Mr. Chairman, it is thn:t we are discussing the estimates of the Departr.ient of Hines, Agriculture and Resources o.nd the hon. member for Bell Islnnd is wandering very far afield when he is talking about the position of the hon. member for Fortune Bay, whi.ch the hon. member for Fortune fky made quite clearly. MR. NEARY: AlJ I want is the same ••• 1429

June 2, 1972. Tape 4 77 Puge L MR.BARRY: Order. We can onlv h,nndle one point of order .at a time. On the point of order rnised by the honourable the House Leader! As the Chair saw it, the honourable menber for for"tune Ray ·wa:; discussing the general management of the denartmcnt by comparing it with the previous management of the department, The lwnourah]e member for Bell Tslai:1r1. I just say that there is n certain limit to the irrelevancy with which the debate can continue. MR.NEARY: Ur. Speaker, I appreciate your overruling the nonsensical incompetent 1,e.adcr of the r,overnm.e.nt. The Great Inquisitor!

I appreciate that Hr. Chairmn. All I want in this House is equal status~ ! want the same latitude that the honourable member for Fortune Bay :las and the honourable Minister of Justice has. Are we living in Russia, Mr. Chairman? Hr. Chairman, I congratulate the member for White Bay South for doing his homework. I think he bns made a noble contribution to this debate. I am glad,Hr. C..hnirman,that he has for the sake of setting the record straight made the points that he made in this honourable House here this afternoon. He has shown bevond the shadow of a doubt Mr.

Chairman, •hat the difficulty with these offshore mtneral grants and leases today is caused by the incompetence of the lawyers who negotiated them at that time. Sir, I can say the same thing about the linerboard mill. That is what got us in trouble Sir, in the linerhoard mill. If we get in troub!P in Come by Chance that is what will get us in trouble, the incompetence of the lawyers who 'WPre representing the government who negotiated these ap:reements - HR.J.CARTER: A point of li1rder Hr. Chairman. This is extremely tedious. I suppose we do have to listen to the honourable member for Bell Island.

The point of order is that he is straying fnr far from the subject. lle Js being cxtrenely tedious. I would - MR.NEARY: Sit down you imbecile, That is not a point of order. 1430

June 2~ 1972. Tape 4 77 Page 2. !>ffi~CARTER: Mr. Chairman, I suppose we must listen to him becaw:c otherwise he will write it all over the walls. 'ffi, NEARY: That :is not a point of order. Buffoon, clown, dope. Sit down you imbecile. MR.CARTER: I would strongly suggest that the honourable member observe the rules of relevance. MR.BARRY: Again the Chair must refer to Standing Orders which require that the discussion and debate adhere to the rules of relevancy while discussing the estimates.

MR.NEARY: The honourable member has his own department in such a mess now that he has decided that he is .an expert on the rules of the House, Sir, what I was about to say was that the reason, the prime reason that we are into difficulty that we are in today with these offshore mineral grants and leases is because they were handled at the time by incompetent lawyers. I do not have to name the gentlemen who acted as the legal advisors to the Crown at that particular time 1 Mr. Chairman, but they have since late departed.

The Minister of Justice, the Minister of Finance are two of the three musketeers that I am referring to. Si;-, if I mav while I am nn my feet say a word to counter what the honourable member for Fortune Bay said. When I was a member of the administration, Sir, I am prepared to take my share of the blame for anything that we did. I will take my share of the credit for anything that we did., from 1969 on Sir. I want to say to the honourable member and to this Honourable House that I was not dictated to. 1 considered myself Sir, when I was a member of that administration 1 to be reasonably ethical.

I have no shares in business or industry Sir. Do not have any to this day. I do not own any construction or any contracting firms. But, Sir, I am afraid that I cannot say the same for some of my predecessors. Now, Mr. Chairman, they have the gall and the audacity to go on the other side of the House and condemn us. We are as innocent as new horn 1431

June 2~ 1972, babes. I was .1ust sittinr, inside of the rail there 'W'here the honourable member for Eonavistz South is nnw sitting, just managed to get inside the rail when these offshore mineral grants a,;;d leases v.1ere given out 1 handed out, dealt out lik~ card:, by the honourable Minister of F:in:mce. Hr. Chairman. what a gall. lhat n gall! hiwm do they think they nrc tryinr, to cod? VR.HICKMAN: Mr. Chairman, I do not propose to reply to nny of the accusations that the gentleman from Bell Inland, the carp2rnter from Bell Island just raised.

I do, he ls not in the House, feel obliged to comment nn any SUtf;estion or criticism of the P'/cfessional competency as a lawyer of the Honourahle Minister of Finance, Hay I re.mind this House when the Honourable Minister of Finance graduated from Dalhousie Law School he hrought to Newfoundland a distinction that no other lawyer has ever heen able to hring • the man with the highest acudeMic marks ever attained or attai.ned that year an)-'where. in Canu.da, Any suggestion, any reflection on the competency. the professional competency of the honoourable Minister of Finance is totally umrnrranted.

It is the sort of thinp:, in my oriinion, will seek to drive and drag this House down to the level that we had to put up with last year and the year before, which the people of Newfoun<llnnd so firmly dealt with and so decisively eliminated. MR.HELLS: Mr. Chairman, I do not knot: who is causing it but surely o.11 of us in this House must want to 12:et doun to to,lking about the estimates.

This thing is out of hnnd, Thank Cod the school children have gone because thiA sort of thing is extrc:::eJy ;:mnoytng end is a disgrace 1 quite frankly 1 to th ts House, Now, surely the point about the offshore leases is thi:Jt That whoever wos in'✓ clvcd in the giving of them must be2r his shore of the respnns1hi1ity. Ve hcve henrcl over and oVE\" again, well fine,, but for Heaven 1 s Sak2,i--'!r. Chairman,do we have to dwell so much in the vust.

The noint is nn" t1nt the! new administration ;:md the Minister of Hines Agriculture & Rc~ources responsible for this particular area must sec to it tlnt the. leos;cs which ore in the hands of people who cannot

1 atie 4 77 iwcn f'.F<mtcd he gnt hnck tu the prnvinee to drnl vi th. /\Jt;n, thnt ' sst:s r,lvcn !.n future r:mst. he given out in such n wnv th:1t the Province um attain 1x1xinur:1 hcncftv,. I m;, not an cn1crt or nn.ny or :my of us perhans on nil leascs~hut techtdcal mlvkc is ;n1-ui.lnble on those thinr::ri and tiw 1,1ho]e principle is surely that the provinces get r::;,ximurn benefit not - 1433

June 2, 1972 Tape ;:o. 4 73 NC - 1 not only from oil lceises or oil depo:;i_ts which we may hnve u ri,;>_ht to 1 but all other aspects and all other natural resources in this province. We are. tulking about the Estimates. We are talking about the approach. We. are talkfog about the money to do thi:-:. sincerely hope that this House can keep its eye on the matter at hand and deal with these. Estimates adequately so that that end can he achieved.

Mr, Chairman, T think that is the hest piece of ndvic-E that I have heard nny member on the opposite side give his colle.af'.ues since this session of the i-lom;e comner:cPrt and I say let us get on with the business and let us start now doing the Estimates item by Ltem. I hope that somebody rill tell the Minintcr of F1.nnncc or will advise the Minister of Finance of what the hon. member just said, what his colleague just said, so that there wil.1 be no more reference to previous administrations. Let them stand on their own two feet. Let us get on with the business of this House. On motion 801 carried. ~ffi.

HINSOR: With regard to 802-02-08, Hr. Ch::dnn:m. mavbe we could have an outline of what Computer Services really nrc, first Vote 1 noticed in the Estbntes for that amount. On motion 802 carried. This is the Hr. Chairn:an, could the hon. r,-i_inister tell us what tile long-range future is of the fishi.ng logs on tl1e Gander River? The long-range. future of the lodge on the Gnnder i~o .sufilething that is quite uncertain.

This year we are ~oinp, to carry on Hitb it as it has been done in previous years with the view of ascertaining its value to r,overnucnt. whether it i.s indeed the tourist promotion centre thnt has heen s117z,ested by the tourist bureau. If it server, that function then quite possi.bly it will be kept on, but if it is simply a rest home for tired government,, elected politicirms,. then it will certainly be discontinu0d. 1434

June 2, 1972 Tape r:o. 4 78 t:c - 2 ~TTL THO?·l12. Could the rn::Lnistcr inform us how many times last year this Jodge ,-:ns used hy govern::ient nffic:Lsls? '-'fR. DOODY: No, I do not hnve that inforrration •,.·ith me, but I imar,ine it can he obtained. You u0uld proLably like n list of all the people who attended there last ycnr, would you? Both the ward healers nnd the ... '-l'R. Tl!DHS: With regafd tn 811-03-rJ7, could the minister rive us ;, break down on this huge incrense? T notice there is an increase of $85,0DO, what would th.is be. for?

"'TTL r:QO,:OY; The original Vote of $15,000 last ycnr w,,r; simply for the studying and preparation of plrms for the wild life park. The additional Vote this time is for the actual capital cost of ;:luildinr, it. ~·!R, 'I}l.Q!'~ At Salmonier Line. MR._ D00D_!: Yes at Snlmonier Line, fencing and erection of cap_es and the cutting of trails, the whole bit. We are going to have a special one for you, padded. On motion 811 co.rried. MR. ROtJE (F.B.): With rernrd to 812-01, I notice this is the fourth subheading under salaries und with ;:m increase, in this case Sl56 ,000 approximately.

I notice throughout the rest of the Estimates here that there appear to be increases for s;::ilarics. I wonder if the minister could inform us as to whether this is mainly because of additional people being hired or whether it iB because of increases in salaries inn department? What is the ~eneral reason for increased expenditure in salaries without a corresponding increase in other expenditures in the department? MR. DOODY: There are two reasons. One of them of course is the annual increment and the upgrading of salaries rtenern.lly. The other is the addition of extra staff.

I do not know what the additonnl staff has been.As I explained earlier, this informnttc:m will be made available. :1435

June 2. 1972 Tape :fo. 4 78 NC - 3 With regard to 812-02"-03. tell us why this vote is up hv nbnut 532,000, Mr. Chairm:m. ~1Q_l)1,_: This is the Hoto1· Vehicle Vote. the difficulty is that there are many vehicles in the forest service now that should hn.ve. been rep laced several years ago. The break down of the vi::hicles is that now tiiey are rncstly 1966,1965,1963,11lfl4 and so on. They nre. o..11 had to mm. The cost of repairing them and maintaining them this year would be far more than the cost of buying the substitute equiprr.ent.

It is unfortunate that it should have to come in one year hut that is part of the inheritance. Is the policy of the department, Mr. Chairman. I wonder the same now 1 that the Department of Supply and Services would do the purchasing and not the department, and that tenders will be called . . DOODY: Tenders will be called by the Department of Supply and Services. 1436

June 2. 1:172 Tape 4i9 J:M - l 812 (03) (lfl) - Forest Access 'Roads: Mr. Chairman, l would like to ask the ninister. it seems to be n small anount ,S!,flJlnD for forest wccess rontls. T h;::ivt' hrid that much myself in one area of Luhrridor Sotith to pet n pn}per road in the Sandwich Bnv Area. Are you e-xnectinr. rr;ore Grmev to con·e jntr, that kitty? MR. DOODY: --·---- As you i'now, Sir, thnt -is n mctintcnancc vote. P12(!l7), there is a capita1 _prant of S61fi.00fi which will be more th;m enouvh to look n.fter the logr,inp; operation :in Cartwright. ~~:.L!f::.'1,01.: No, we are not down to it vet, Sir.

MP~~R~Q.WE(F.B.): Nr. Chairman, 1 wonder if the minister could inforn the House what this would ,.;can in terr.s of wages and the number of peop1e employed in the coming vcnr7 812(01) (ll). MR. DOODY: This is the Gross Horne. The Si.000 difference _,:herf> is a $300,000 capit:11 vote there :me! this wi1 1 be use<l nrimarilv for the reimbursement of people for land which the rovernment wil I acquire nr for property for people who want to sell their honvs, The S7 ,500 is a vote for the salary of the p.overnment information 0fficer in the area.

So there is in effect no salary vote nr emnloyment vote in the Gross Morne National Park. The salaries of the people who work in that park are paid fully by the Federal Government, There will be eighty some people hired there very soon.They nrc prob;iblv beinr: hired today or very shortly and thev will be paid entirely by the Federal grants. HR. NEARY: Is the $7,000 recoverable from the p.ovcrnment then or is it all paid by the province? MR. DOODY: At least fifty per-cent of it, Sir. MR. HARVEY: 812(07). Mr. Chairman, t apologize to the honourable minister as there is quite an increase.

I would like to thank him 1437

June 2, 1972 Tape 479 JM - 2 very much, it was my mistake - $70,000 and $616,0DO. I would like to ask if it - $84,000. Thank you very much! MR. ROHE(W.N.): Mr. Chnirr.m.n, on that vote for $616,000, what is this?

Is this Provincial Government money or is it money, 1 think, fifty per­ cent of which was to come from DREE or from DREE and the Department of Forestry in Ottawa? 1 notice from Appropriations-in-Aid down there that it is a very small amount. $225,000 - Contributions from Canada, Well if that is divided up between the Gross Morne National Park 5100,00f'! capital and the $616,000 capital in Forest Access Roads it goes nowhere near fifty per-cent in either case. ~_:___00O_!?..Y.,: There is no Appropriation-in-Aid shown for the Gross Horne projects.

We have to ohtain all the lands in the park and pass them over to the Government of Canada free and unencumbered and they then will reimburse the province for at least fifty per-cent of it. This is an on-going thinr that may take five or ten years to acquire. The Appropriatiotis-in-Aid thnt are shown here, the $225,000 is part of the access road. I think. But it is still not half. HR. DOODY: No, it is still not half, that is right. ~.!..]HOMS: Could the minister supply us with a list of the allotments? MR. DOODY: With a breakdown for the forest roads, yes. Yes, we can get that.

This, of course, I imagine will vary as the year ~oes on but as we have it planned out now it is here and available. You can get it from the department if you so desire. ~IR. THOMS: Fine. ---- On motion, 812 caTried. Mr. Chairman, on 814(03)(07), I understand there is a forestry survey taking place in Labrador in conjunction with the Federal Department of Fo;estry. Is some of this cost federal participation or is it all provincial? 1438

June 2, 1972 Tape 479 JM - 3 _MR._ .. ~O_Q_l?_I: This ls not the Forest Industry Progrnrr,;ne which vou speak of. This is a land survcv :rnd this is all rccovernble from the Federal GovernEent with the exception of $50,000 as I understand which is the provinceS proiect. ~~}2.Q_O_DY: No, Sir, the forest industrv is another prnlect. On motion, 81A carried. HR. THOMS: 816(01)(05): Hr. Chsim.nn, there is roughly a ~900,flOO increase, is this part of the federal nro_grnmmc? ~J?PQDY: Yes. it is one hundred per-cf'nt recoverable.

You will see in the contributions, in the Approprint1nns-in-Aid there is $1. mill ion • the vote down there on the hottom. On motion, 81.f'i carried. MR. THOMS: Hr. Chairman. what is this s1nn.oo for under Mine Rescue? HR. DOODY: That is n token vote. They do not have a mine inspector at the present tioe on staff so they put inn token vote to hold it open until such time as they find an appropriate offical to look ;;.fter that division. AN HON. MEMnER: In other words you cannot estimate for it. MR. DOODY: That is right. !low will we know how many mine disasters ------ we are goinr; to have.

None I hope but then,if there are that vote will be absurd, of course. On motion, 817 carried. 1439

June 2, 1972 Tape no, 480 Page. l - MRW On motion total 822 carried. MlL WINSOR: With regard to 825 1 I wonder if the minister can give us some information on Just what the responsibilities of the Clean, Air, Water and Soil Authority are? I r.Jn sure he is well familiar with the problem we have at Fogo and the Hinister of Municipal Affairs. It seems as if this Town of Fogo now has been waiting for hundreds of years to get a water system and all things say go except for the approval of the Clean, Air~ Water and Soil Authority. What is the position - does that authority have the authority over the minister?

This is the point I would like to know. Can the minister in other words overrule the decision of the Clean, Air, Water and Soil Authority? MR. ROWE (W.N.): I think it is as well to do it all the one time. The Clean, Air, Water and Soil Authority - everybody rather crys pollution of all kinds especially in a place like Newfoundland where we have been relatively pollution free, Mr. Chairman.

What I have noticed in the past is the ludicrous situation where in a community 500,600 or 1,000 people are often precluded from getting a water and sewer system because of the additional amount necessary to put in a sewerage treatment plant. A small community like that from which raw sewerage would ordinarily go into their harbour or on out into the Northeast Atlantic Ocean, hardly a pollution problem or hardly an overwhelming pollution problem • In the same breath a large municipality like I suppose St.

John's will still - I am not sure about this but maybe I can be corrected for the Minister of Municipal Affairs might have some knowledge of it. I suppose St. Johnts pours raw sewerage r.lght out into St. John I s Harbour here. AN HON~ HEHBER: (Inaudible) MR. ROWE (W.N,): They still do. I mean my question to the minister is not so 1440

June 2, 1972 Mr. Rowe (W.N.) Tape no. 480 Page 2 much directed at trying to get rid of this requirement against the smaller communities but to brin)!. to his attention,as I am sure he has had already brought to his attention, the absolute ridiculousness or the ludicrousness vf the situation where a small community who want a ditch,with a pipe in it, to carry their sewerage to sea, are precluded from getting it (this ordinary health amenlty and social scrvicel while at the sa,-ne time a large town or a large city keeps pumping it out, right out into St.

John's Harbour or other harbours, rip:ht out into the Atlantic Ocean Now is it the intention of the minister or the government or CAWSA to increase the restrictions in the future. to require that all towns and all communities will have these restrtctions on them and will be stopped from pumping out raw filth into the sea or anywhere else1 Is it the thought that the government will loosen some of the restrictions in respect of the smaller communities? l asked the question genuinely.

I know it is a difficult one; namely, because the province. does not have as much monev,as was brought to our attention rather forcefully by the Minister of Finance, not as much money as we would like to have. I read there somewhere in the last dav or so (I do not think - I probably already knew it, most members probably already knew it) that municipal pollution is still the worst form of pollution in spite of the fact that it has been very glamorous in the past few years to give a hard time to General Motors and other big companies. Naturally their pollution is as bad as well. ERCO pollution is bad.

All kinds of industrial waste and industrial pollution is bad, One of the real culprits is still anJ tt'_, t>iggest cttlnrit is a.till municipal. governments all across Canada. Perhaps the minister would like to have one or two comments on that and give us some. indication as to what kind of policy is being formulated. MR. DOODY: I certainly share the concern of the hon. member from Fogo~ The difficulty is, of course, in trying to apply the rules of pollution control 1441

June 2, 1972 Tape no. 460 Page 3 or proper sewerage disposal, proper water systems to existing municipalities and to existing water works - a fantastically expensive one as you can well imagine. I believe the intention of the Clean, Air, Water and Soil Authority and of the previous administration was to encourage them to try to prevent the proliferation of pollution by insisting on proper controls for new installations and new areas, I agree with you that it is awfully difficult to apply these rules to communities that have been waiting for so long for these amenities of life.

I sincerely hope that we can come up with some sort of a compromise solution which will provide the proper protection for our environment and at the same tir.~ make life more pleasant for the people who live in these comi:nunities and who richly deserve the facilities that we described. The Clean, Air, Water and Soil Authority itself is charged not only with the environment control, not only with the pollution control but also with the management of the water resources of the province. This 1 of course, is their biggest charge. It is a relatively new organization.

I do not honestly feel that it is properly oriented as far as government is concerned* I think it is better to lessen free-wheeling on its own. I do believe that a lot of attention has to be given to it. It certainly has not had enough attention in the past. It is certainly my hope and my desire to do what I can to bring the thing in line and to try to find a system or solution to the problems that you outlined. I sincerely hope that you will help me in this regard. You can come up with some ideas. I know of the Fogo problem. I have seen the report on it.

They speak about improper concrete protection around the wells, improper concrete tops on them. You and I know that the people in Fogo and elsewhere have been using wells for quite some time?and very few of them - but these are the things 1442

June 2, 1972 Tape no, 480 Page 4 Mr. Doody that we have to try to handle. It is a wonderful organization. lt is building itself up very rapidly. It is pretty difficult to argue l-Jith the need for hydrologists and biologists and all this sort of thing but it is also something, as I say, that needs very close study. It has an awfully important function with regard to the iuture of the water resources and of the environment of Newfoundland. MR. WINSOR: Mr.

Chairman, 1 certainly appreciate the concern of the minister and I sincerely hope that some solution will be arrLved at in order that the good people. of Fogo ?!'.ay get that water system this year. lam sure the honourable minister is sincere and for that I am very appreciative, I will relay that to the people of Fogo. If you ever have the occasion to go to fugo,go there without any fear. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. WINSOR: Well we hope that there will be more in store. MR. ROWE (W.N.): I cannot resist the opportunity to get a plug in here as well. I believe the Mayor of Seal Cove, White Bay, Hr.

Gillingham ✓ was in the galleries earlier this afternoon. They are in exactly the same position. If all that was required was a water and sewer system, there vas enough money with the ordinary subsidy. As thr honourable minister knows with the rates coming in, their return coming in and the ordinary subsidy, there was enough for a water and sewer system. Now they are in the position where three-quarters or more of the water and sewer System is completed and there is still $100,000 left outstanding.

A ~uarter of the community, unless the Minister of Finance shows some unwarranted ienerosity .might find 1 tsel f vi th­ out the water and sewer system ~md three-quarters will have it all because of this requirement that a sewerage treatment plant goes in. Far be it from me to decry the need for such a thing but on balance I would have to 1443

June 2. 1972 Mr. Rowe {W.N. say as a representative Tape no. 480 of the District of White that if I had to choose between two evils, one a having no water nnd sewer system or n Town like water nnd sewer systen yet sendinr; out a little Bay Town Seal bit into the North Atlantic Dcean, then I would opt for 1444 Page 5 South like Seal Cove Cove having a of pollution

June 2, 1972 Tape 481 PK - 1 MR. Rm-:rE, H.N. the water and se,:,.:erage system with no sewerap;e. treatment planL I had to say thnt, Hr. Chatman, because I think it is more important to a small community like that to have this social and health a~enity. HR. DOODY! Tt might he practical to complete the wnter systems and sewerage systems now and possibly look to a future day,hopefully soon,when we can put in the necessary treatment plants and pumping stations. I will certainly investigate along these lines. HR.

THOMS: }-!r, Chairman, I douht very much if thi.s province is going to find itself in a position to he ahle to finance these treatment plants. I am just wondering if the minister has anything in mind to approach the federal government on some Yin<l of an outright grant to supply our towns with these treatment plants? Tiecause I do not believe that t 11t: economy of our province at the present time can finance it. HR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Chairman, on your behalL Sir ,and my own, on he half of the Chairman that is and to direct to the attention of the committee the position that has no~ been taken by so many groups in this province there is not much douht at all that pollution is, I was going to say the"in-thing" in Canada now hut certainly the proper control of the environment. While I think of it, I suspect that all honourahle members have received in today's mail a copy of a magazine - 1 have forgotten tflc name of it, !!Construction Industry Magazine". AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. -------- HR.

HIC,"MAN: No, no, not 11 Time 11 • Anyway the picture of the Deputy Minister of the Environment is on the cover·and it deals very ~xtensively with the environmental problems in Canada and points out very clearly that other Canadians are no different from ourselves that they are becoming very concerned ab,-:ut it. There is only one distruhing thinr nhout that whole thing, and it points up what we were saying in opposit1on last year.that regrettably 1445

June 2, 1972 Tape 481 PK - 2 the Department of Fisheries, as we used to know it, of Canada is now really become the Department of The Environment and there is no douht at all when you read that magazine that the main thn,.istt in fact almost the total thrust of that department is to-ward ·nvironnental matten; nnd regrettably for Newfoundlanders in particular, Fisheries have been put so far down on the bottom of the list that you have a lot of d.ifficulty in finding anyone in that departP1e.nt vith the kind of interest that Fe demand, Rut be that a.sit may, Pr. Chairman, quite recently the Burin i'eninFJu1n

Chapter of the Association of Registered Nurses has taken up too the cudgel for more environmental control nnd for the installation of proper sewerage treatment, I will ask you, !-fr. Chairman, and myself to bring this to the attention - their wishes and their desires and their concern to the attention of the committee at the appropriate time 1which I now do, I will not read the entire letter I will just read one paragraph which I am sure is very ohvious to all honourahle memhers of th:l.s Bouse. "t:e are happy to he on this beautiful Burin Peninsula where we enjoy clean fresh air.

He would l:i.ke all to have clean water to drink and to use for hygenic purposes." One thing whi.le I am on my feet, Hr. Chairman, that has been, I do not know if the honournhle minister has had the opportunity to cure it but there seems to he a trem.endnus duplication of effort insofar as environmental control is concerned. In August of 1970, I had a shopkeeper come to me from a part of rural Newfoundland and I would not wish to identify him. But there was then in the course of construction a hennery and a piggery, well one had been finished and in operation and the other was starting.

His shop was infected by rats and flies to the extent that he had to close. The then Minister of Health~ who is now the Leader of the Opposition,- at my request conducted an investigation and said that it was a nusiance, a terrible nusiance hut regrettably it was not harmful to health.,therefore he could not do anything about it. 1446

June 2, 1972 Tape 481 PK - 3 r.m. HICKM.r\N: The Clean. Air, \"!ater cmd Soil Authority saiil that they would have to be guided as to whether or not it was harmful to he:nlth rather than ~-;hethe.r it was a pollutant of the environGent generally. The Government of Canada got into the act and they said that there was some drainn.ge from this huilding gotng into the sea hut that was only a partial problem that unless the Clean, Air, \-Jater and Soil Authority of the province were prepared to stop it~they would not take any action.

The long and the short of it w,::,s that the environment, the immediate environment of that area was heinf!: polluted ad nauseam and the neighbours they sent fH::.titions, I believe there was a petition tabled in this House, certainly they sent petitions to the various m:f.nisters. Because of duplication of effort or people working or departments working at crnss purposes the result vas that the main objective of the C:lean, Air, Pater and foil Authority was totally lost.

I am certainly in accord with what the honourable minister says that a review of the functions of that authority is very, very much indicated at this time. MR. !'1.

WOODHARD: Hr~ Chairman, I ran into a similar type prohlem last year while travelling throughout the Lahrador Coast and as pollution is the "in-thinr" a lot of people do not know what it is, the Clean Air Water and Soil A11thority being new and putting new people in the field, have caused a lot of concern in some of the smaller communities,and in some of the smaller cow.munities by having survey teams go out and ask the residents of a lot of communities embarrassing questions as such.

This thing: being general throup;hout the rural areas of Newfoundland last year, where the Clean Air and Soil Authority hired a bunch of students from the university to travel throu~hout all or most of the rural communities. I know that they did for a couple of months spend some time on the Labrador Coast, both in the South and in the North, and when I returned to the district it was brought to my attention that those students were coming into the homes, asking embnrrassing questions and things of that nature. 1447

June 2, 1972 Tape 481 PK - 4 MR. i-!OODHARD: Also it ::!.s (Juite possible thn..t in this particular case here, where there has been an :industry directly involver! with pollution, n lot of the people that have gotten involved with the Clean, Airs lfa.ter and Soil Authority maybe have not heen properly told as what pollution is.

I th:i.nk this is one of the situations maybe where we ret a lot of 1::mcklash from the survey pe.ople~Wlien they go to make a survey in those communities, I think that they should be properly coached as to what questions they should ask the residents or householders of that co-:nmunity so as they are not embarrassed. 1 think there is something wh'ich needs to be said on this vote which has not been said so fur this afternoon.

I rece:ived a letter similar to the one which the honourable Minister of Justke just referred to and in answering that I put it quite plainly to the people concerned that I think for many years to come perhaps for a generation that no government of this province no matter how vell meaning they are or how much they wish to help the people, is going to be able to afford to give all the water and sewer systems that are necessary throughout this province, It is physically and financially impossible.

The cleanliness and lack of pollution or dehtruction of pollution in many of our villages and settlements will for a long, long time to come depend upon the people themselves, I think i.t is an inherent duty of every member of this House who gets around h:i.s district to prench to his people the rcospel of cleanliness of their surroundings. :fou it is all very t,,;ell to look to the governreent for everything but ve know in many places that the government will not he able to do very much about it for many years to come but the people themsC:lves can do an awful l!ot and should do an awful lot.

I have seen many places, many sr::nll places i-:here the conditions are simply deplorable. I know of one instance where there is a shalJm., haras-way

June 2, 1972. Tape 482. Page 1. surrounded by houses and every sewer in that place goes into that barachois , where there ,is no more than at the best u foot nr twn of water. The conditlons in summer there are in xed-th1e are -,ndescribable. The foolish part about i.t i.» that w:i thin a hundred yz1·n1· of .r: 11 of this emptying of sewerage and so on in the barachois there is st.,.ong tides and open ocean where the conditions could be improved tremendously. But. people will just tnke the shortest cut nnd go over there reganlless of their own health hazard and everything else.

Co and dump everything into the thing nearest their own front door. Now, the strange thin~ about this is that the people in this settlement and many others are so conscious of the cleanliness of their own houses. Their own houses are spotless,internally. You could eat off the floor. But the surroundings of the house and the ~ewerage and so on disposal is something, as I said,.completely m1describable.

We can have all the E:lean Air Water & Soil Authoirt:~1:s th.at vnu can name, unless these people, ..:ith the support of the elected members to go tc the districts and tell the people that they must get up off their rear ends and help themselves, I do not think verv much will be accomplished because the final respon­ sibility in keeping any village or any settlement clean does rest with the people who live in them. We have to create a great nride in the settlement, a great pride in the appearance and cleanliness of settlements.

I think that this might be one of the foremost and greatest efforts this authority could do in the wav of education towards cleanliness and the destruction of the facets which lead to pollution in so many p~.ices. '!R,WILSON: Mr. Chairman, while we are on this nuestion of pollution, this district T represent, I would be amiss I think in sitting down here this evening and not to mention pollution, because we have pollution, the very worse degrading kind. I co:.ie from an area., the river flows frcm rfght in at the Trans­ Canada Highway down past the great historical site of Roaches Line. It 1449

June 2, 1972, Tape 482. Pape 2. nms right hy my front door- out into the harbour of Clarke 1 s <each. I onlv had the refere,m,,brought :_;, my attention on Friday pastfto go :md visit the arS!a. know I have visited the nrea before so I decided 1 would ca.11 the Depnrtr.:.ent of Publ:tc Health which I di.d,. They came up in the car and they asked me wtere they could rcnch it.

You drive your car along as far as you can get then, '1 1-rill take ycu in the trm+. 1 i took them in to a place called Turks Water on the back of Roaches Line where the historical site :is, travelled LLen half a mile through bog up to om: knees,with shoes on. We arrived at the scene. I hnd it already prepared with the evergreens cut away for this health inspector to walk 0ver. When we arrived at th,• .destination we had to use a rod; six and a-half inches deev of pollution.

I hesitate to say anything about it but the confusion mid all. the neople nround my place and the stench- I already had to lenve 11 building nnd get out of it. It cost me $40 1 000 to huild another one to get cle,1.r of the stench. This thing has been going on for vears and years and years. We have had ;Jeople that have heen in the pollution area. health insnectors passed by~ They were ordered not to shove it into a river. Then they would tttrn the bull­ dozers on it and shoved it down in our forest. Lo: urn] behold! I can take any member ot this House of Assembly right to this very spot.

You will find fir trees, spruce trees cut off the size of pickets~just the same as beavers had cut them off, with pollution, acid and all the rest tbat ;wes with it from the henneries, on noaches tine. Eleven sheep had died along side of the river. Two cows had died along side of the river,,eating the grass that has come from this. It flows out by Hnkinson I s Lody,e 1 two and a-half i.nches deep, comes down in South River, pollutes the Salmon River. Why would I not speak of nnllution?

I see in this Clean Ajr Water & Soil Authority, I hope that this government,whfch I am now a part of , I hope to make it a viable one to do something nhout it. Stand shoulder to shoulder and the opposition along with them, to try to rid our prcvtnce of these pollution 1450

June 2. 1972. Tnpe 482. Page 3. effects. I am not tired of living yet :in the Prnvi.nce nf >lewfoundland, For God Sake. if ve cannot dn anythinp; else. let us trv and mnke. it fit for those that n.rc cor:1ing after us to 1 ive in" I th'ink tl:ds is something that should he looked into, I nm vcrv nroml to be n member of 2 government and willinp: to go to the extreme to see .if so:;,;::thinp can be done about it. I am glad that they have taken un the iden of not lettin;~ pollutfon run into, fr0f"l a nersons septic tnnk into the 1,,ater.

Becn.m;e 1 have al· eatly built ever so many house9 1 I llnve to rut n septi.c tank down then the nipe from the spe.tic tnnk will go to the salt wo.ter. But why allow hulldozers to shovel manure cut to shove it i.nto our salmon rivers, let it run L•to the water ,when we hnvc John Dne across the street who is not able to a1f;1i;d to build an outdoor privy and not alloFf'i to do anything. Shame nn us.1 Let us get to work as a povernment. I invite the -1rnosition to join us and <lo some hing: about it. HF.WINSOR: Hr.

Chairman, before we leave this item, I am sure the honourable member vho has just sat dotrn is much concerned. The 11revious Liberal Government did have L~,.: forc0icht to p:et ti C.1can ,\ir, 1:ater ::ncl Soit Authority into operation. Now, of course, the responslbilitv of making that function the way it should is the rcsponsibilitv of the new administration. But, Mr. Chairman, there ts another serious proh.!em. One in particular in my - in the district of Fogo,where a sawmill operator who is sawing lumber at the head of r:an<ler Bay and of course_accumulation of sawdust accumulates.

So, during this winter this gentleman was told he could no longer operate a ST~tmill because of polluting Cander Bay. I do not know how realistic that is been.use sawdust is a substance that flouts on the surface and drifts out into the ocean. It is not within two, three, four miles of any salmon r'Lver. In order for this mjll operator to move it is going to be quite costly. He produces around three to four million feet of lumber a year. 1451

June 2, 1972. Tnre 482. Page l;. If action has to be taken because_,}'lr. Chairman, th.is deprives this your,,-, man or his family from earning a living. That is very serious. If it has to be done then why not ar-range to have it done over n period of years, so that the man will have an onportuni.ty to resettle and reconstruct his mill in some other nren1 Not only that but 1 think someone should take the "1-',ponsibility of finding n new locati.on for htm where it will not he considered a pollution area. I would apprec-1ate it 1.f the Hinister would look into that matter. 1452

June 2, 1972 Tape 483 NB~ l MlL DOODY: For the information for hon. ~enbcr from Fogo, the ironic thing ,_,"_,_, __ _ about that is that it is a pnrt of Canada, a federal regulation, somethini,: that has brought us into the ocean; enforcing it. Clean Air, Water and Soil people are - I do not quite understand it but that is the way it seems to be. There are many areas, as I said, in that division. that have to be looked at and ti)!htened up4 I agree, the :iobs are scarce nnd the welfare of people must be our first consideration.

He certainly have that in nind in the department. ~!!\.:R:Q_~~ On 03-01 does the minister know - can he rive us an explanation concerninp the professional people. Is this soil engineers and that sort of thing?

If so, if he does have some information it it which he could Rive us, would he also hnve the names of any persons or firms which mirtht have been retained to do some work? f~-~ poop)': These payments, these charr:es for professional services, the charges for consultants that have been hired during the past year for the purposes of examining such things as the water erosion, bank erosion problem at Happy Valley and the water system problem at Steady Brook and the log storage place in Stephenville for the Linerboard plant 1 (the log storare in Stephenville Pond is going to be a great problen as far as the polution of that area is concerned) I de not have the naoe of the companies who are doinr these services.

That information can be made available for the information of this House,if they so desire. We can get that information for you. HR. ROWE: companies concerned cir from the Government of Canada under DREE in respect of the Churchill River erosion J-~':.....PQ9DY; To the best of my knowled,?e, unfortunately. ~..:.. l'.1l!!tPI-!Y: I know the hon. member might Rive a contribution there. MR. DOODY: As a matter of a fact I made a copy of that report available AN !]ON. MEMBER, We can not have the community destroyed, 1453

Tape 483 NTI - 2 I would like to tet n little more information on tiv1t Churchill Bank ,•rosion. Durinr rnv term as me;nber dotam there. I saw thnt hnnk wash out into the river as n;uch as fiftv. sixtv feet. \'ery soon there will be hones r,oinp out l.nto the river and maybe n loss of life. HP .... ,,. The conv of thP report has been given to the hon. nember for the D:l.strict :md I am sure he vould be only too happy to let you see :it. It: is not finished. I do not think it is a completed report. It is another phase of n report. I hnve he€n told and I think the hnn.

Minister for Labn1dor Affairs h;,s also been told thnt the Churchill Falls pro,iect - completion of the Churchill Falls power development 1.s suppose to, whether th:Ls is in fact or not, have clrared up or will clear up the bank erosion problem at the end of thnt river. Would that be right? They said thaL Fut still the town council I think will tell you the bank sti.11 washes aw:1y. up H/\RVFY· }T. Chairman, I was wonderinp if the minister could tell me if that includes survcv parties, checkinf! on rivers.where they get the water sunrilies from and so forth - thinp:s of that nature? lfR DOODY: Yes.

I understand it is the various contrihuting - there is a water rrunlity survey, what ever thnt might be. Continual wc1ter nuality surveys for pottnble and recrcationnl usage, in the St John 1 s and other urban areas. These. surveys and studies arc carried on by university students who are hired for the sunmcrtime. Follow up of the 1971 pollution survey, checking anomAlics and deficiencies. There arc three students involved in that. Afisessrncnt of the 1971 survey to identify critic.al areas and other areas for study hy pemanent stnff. Two grndunte students involved.

They then did detail the hrcahlovn on salnry and travel and miscellaneous equipment. Yes, I i10uld like to brini;; to your attention Mr. Chairman, that in most of the. communities that I represent in Labrador South it is a very talked about <lnnv;er of all their water supply system being polluted. They )!et most of their water from a river flowin[!' into the community. 1454

June 2, 1972 Tape 483 NB - 3 Have you notified the departnent to tMs effect? No T have noL I did nr-t know much about it and I just thought I ,,:ould hrinp it to your attention now if I could rmd I will lnter. He would lih:~ to co-oper:1te in any way we can. ~p':- }l!;_R_Y.Y:!.· Fip.h t ' Fine; Than), you; ~m T170?-1S~ - -- «•--·- ~fr. flinirman, on n.1-ns, I worHler could the minister exnlain to us thrse Faterinl sites? ~-"R DOODY, A lot of dumps around the Province. They nrc re-constructin,i dU1"lps in Kellir,rews.

Bny Bulls, Pouch Cove, Hhithourne nn<l thev are preparing new sit<e"S in Pearts Delir1 ht, Fenrts Desire. feorgestown, Farysvnle, Lewin 1 s Cove) Conception Harbour. They got new sites i.n St. Andrews, Woodville, Norris Arm NortlL Charlottetot•m. ?1ew World Islnnd West and New World Islnnd East. Thev are bringinr out new sites under a Federal-Provincial programme 1 at Bay de Verde, TZed Head Cove, Bloonfidd, Lcthbridze, f'anninp Cove, Cnpe Broyle, Tors Cove. ~fclville. Codroy, South Branch, Flouers Cove, St. Rarbe, Birchy Bny. Pellev's Island, funder Ray, Victoria, Boyd's Cove. Jenn de Buie, North Harbour.

The nmount of moncv involved is $272,200 for construction and about ~28.000 for operation and maintenance. These are the sites that they have lined up to prepnre for this vear. Inaurlihle i'?:':,.•_.!1~nrnw• No, no. Not the incinerators. The dur:ips are in rny der,artrnent. The incinerators are with the hon. Minister ot Municipal Affairs~ Are these the sites which the Department of Hines. Agriculture and P.esources used to put in or near unincorporated areas? >rr _D.0..0..D..r:· /\11 those thinps you rientioned there nre not incornorated. HP SoMe of these are incorporated, }1r. Chairman.

I was wondering what is happening. I knet.: that there was a prop:ramrne, almost an ad hoc progrmnrne to help out unincorporated arens~ like we do in Community and Social Development for ws1ter systens. I am surprise<l to hear some of these communities are incorporated, nnd I nm wonderinp what is hnppenin?, I mean, is there some shift of resnonsibility 1455

tape 481 I notice, to the best of nv ir_nowledp;; the :i.ncorpornted ones seeni to !,e in the r<'c.onstructi.on p0rt of i.t. Kelltrrews, whJch is in the foncention South local imnrovcnent district, 1456

June 2, 1972 Tape No. 1;84 NC - l Briv Bulls, Pouch Cove; Torhny is not incorporated, they are still workinr, on th:it one, HhitlYurne is, T. think they are reconstructing nnd cleaning up sites that vcre provided to these communities before thv? Hen2 incorporated, Thnt is what 1 vnuld gather nnd now that the connnunit Les lrnve probably talked government into fixing them up for them. All these far scL'inr, and in:nort;mt events, not corr,, >l tments mip:ht sav. ton1: place a little t1hUe ago. By cnlncidence, a r,reat number of them happen tn be in the htstoric District of Hnrbo11r Pain.

They have been neglected for too lonp,. Ji~•- ROHE: A great coincidence. ~ .. ~!~,'.:'3·:.I_: With rer,ard to {03-07). my friend and colleague here from Bonavista North nskcd me to ask vou whnt it is?

P1rnt you nre doing? 1 am Just passing it alonr,, he had to go to the telephone. :!R·_J~O~~l]Y: Hell there is n short paragraph here which describes it as "A study formulated hy il Federal-Provincial Task Force that has been acknowledged by the ministers of hnth levels of government as being desirable. fifty per ct:nt of the cost will be reimbursed by the Federal Government as shown under ,iAppropriations in Aid." It would appear that they are examining the :Cxploits River Basin. On motion 825 carried. On mot.ion 826 carried. On motion 827 carried • . ~.,:__Jl~ Mr.

Chairm.1.n, with regard to 828-03-03, where this grant uas Fi12 ,40() for institutions, this is something new is it? ~..!!,Y2 Grants to agricultural institutions, the Atlantic Provinces 1457

June Z~ 1972 Tape No. 484 NC - 2 have agreed to share the cost of providing a technical agricultural programme. The total cost of this programme is divided by the nnmber of students to arrive at a cost per studenL Each province pnys according to the number of students attending. There are presently four attending from Newfoundland. 1458

June 2, 1972 Tape No. 485 NC - l Membership fee of the Agriculture and Economics Research Council of Canada, also included. AN HON. HE!-IBER: ls thh nt the school in Truro? Yes. m mot inn B28 carried, On motion 829 curried, On motion 830 curried. MR. '.1!.!P~fS: Hith reµ:1nl to 831-02-08, could the minister explain where thi:-, consolld,1tl,m is taken from? ~fR. OOOD¥: They help to do uorL in the Cormack wren ,.1nd Pasadena area and the Codroy Vnlley area, and the Kilbride area.

We need funds which nre required for snrv,~vs, farm lay~out and the purchase of lands in these n.reas for redistrih11tion to interested farr,;ers in the area by lease, hy rent, by purchase. !'tR. THOMS: Tnaudlhle. ---------~ ~R-~_}1_!10D'½_ There nre very few lands in Newfoundland with ;mv kind of surveys unfortunately. This is oni; nf the biggest prohlems they run into, The first thing they have got to do is try nnd find out who did own the lnnd and who rloes own the lnnd. AN HON.

Me1BER: It is mostly in the Codroy Valley area. ~--1~.0I~Y_:_ In the Co<lroy Valley and the Cormack area and the I'asaden;. area and in the Kilbride area. AN llO:-i. ME'.'H1F.R:__ What is thir; item? ~ffi. BOODY: ------ -.. Hinter Forage. It is a need for a high quality winter forar,e to increase livestock production in the province. In some arc0.s this could be hetter accomplished on a co-operative basis by a P,rnup of farmers where expensive harvesting equipment could be shared. 1n some areas there is u shortage of land for forage production.

But large areas of bog lrmd nearby can be brought into production on a co-operative basis~ so they need this money to see if such a scheme is 14 5 !l

June 2, 1972 :i.ndeed practical nnd posstble r;reat help. 1460 Tape No. 485 NC - 2 If it can work, it would be n

June 2. 1972 Tape 486 On motion, 831 carried MR. ROWECtLN.): 832(01) - Grants to Newfoundland Farm Products Corportation. It is all verv g:ood, without taking up too much time in the House, for members to stand up and wring their hands and say they wish the labour problem was solved and even all very good for an honourahle minister of the House to more or less blame one of the parties involved, the union. and sav that they are the ones who are being unreasonable. That does not help the primary producer, JM - 1 the man who is goinr, to po bankrupt or lose his birds or lose his pies as the case mirht be.

Most of these people nre not over endowe<l with financial resourcf;s and they have themselves mortgaged to the hilt". as my honourable friend. the member for Bono.vista North ,has sairi on a couple of occasions. I as wel] as he have been in contact with, Twas contacted by Mr. Frank Petipas,and I think the deadline is nrobably today, is that right, or over this weekend? You know, if something is not done ahout taking his produce off his hands well then this viable industry. l think it has been proven to be a viable industry, is going to go up the spout, Mr. Chairman.

Surely the minister can come up with some kind of a contingency plan in respect of this. I suppose he is worried about precedentsr if we help out a prit:1ar1 producer or an innocent third party who is affected by a labour dispute now we might have to do it in the future But you know, t mean I do not think we should be afraid of setting precedents in the government. I do not think there would be a great amount of money involved in this particular case, a great amount,as far as the government is concerned would not be verv great but a very great amount as far as an ,individual producer is concerned.

Surely we can come up with some scheme wherebv either it is taken off his hands, shipped away or if in fact the produce has to be utterly destroyer! and lost then some subsidy can be worked out 1461

June 2. 1972 Tnpe 486 JM - 2 so that he does not have to suffer and others like him and lose everythini: in one fell swoop. t mean,if it were over a long period of time we could probably wod· out sorr:ethin~ to phase out an unviable industry but industries i-;hich have proved thenselves to be viable~ are paying men to work in them~both in return on canital and as wages, then I think thnt we should try to save such nn industry and inclividuals who have gotten into that kind of an industry~ should try to save them and not let them suffer as a result of some adventitious or fortuitous event which is conpletely beyond their control. tTI".':;...•,,_D_O~Q~"Y_: Mr.

Chairman, I may make a comment on that if I may. The importance of the hroiler industry and the hog industry, of course~ h;:1s been stressed both hy rwsel f as well as the honourable member for Bonavista North and hy other people here. It is not the intention of this government or of this department to nt any time deprive the farmers of the facilities of Farm Products. At no time have government done anything to prevent the farmers from usinp: the facilities of Fnr~ Products. The fact that there is a strike on down there now is unfortunate I feel for the strikers as well as the farmers.

But the facilities of Newfoundland Fnrm Products arc put there for the benefit of the farmers and as far as this department and its administration is concerned they are still there for the benefit of the farmers and if the farmers want to take it on from there or want to have a chat with us about that we have absolutely no intention in any way. shape or form of forcing theM to suffer hecause of the unfortunate situation that is occurring down there. TllOMS: Mr.

Chairman, I was quite interested earlier on this afternoon when I heard the Minister of Finance give some of the figures in relation to this problem down in the abattoir. Maybe I have my fir:urcs nll wrong. Mr. Chairman, but could you correct me? The people doun there are asking for thirty-two cents per hour and the government 1462

June 2, 1972 Tape 486 is offering twenty-two. ~~;_l}_.:1?_00Y_:., That is right. HR~-., THOM.'.t: So there is only a difference of ten cents ner hour. is that right'Z Is it correct to sav th:1t there are less than fifty people. probably forty-six or fortv-c.:irht people involved? !'-!,g_.~: I think there c1re nbout seventy people involved. 1'!_R__:._THOMS: About seventy people, 1463 JM - 3

June 2, 1972, Tape Tape 487, Page 1 -- apb MR. DOODY: Forty-five of them attended and voted last night. I see. So then, if you take this ten percent increase witich they want and multiply it, the only thing you are worrying about is really sixty-five or seventy dollars per day and this would save this whole operation. Is this not correct? HR. DOODY: That is correct, but none of these situations are as simple as they appear to be. Many of the hon. members across the House and on this side of the House are nware that the union at Fann Products is involved in this dispute.

It carries further with rez;u:d to estab]ishing a precedent with wage increases above and beyond the capacities of government at the present time. There could very well be - it could have effects on negotiations and various other sectors and segments of government relationship with employees, public employees and the government has made it quite clear - the Chairman of the Treasury Board made it quite clear today that this government has made many concessions and many gestures towards reconciliation in this regard. They started off with - they sat at the table and negotiated and have moved up to twenty-two cents.

The union on the other hand, for some reason or other,started at twenty-eight cents and moved ahead to thirty-four. Then, they moved back to thirty-two and it has been a most difficult set of negotiations. I think one of the other problems involved is that Treasury Board has had to negotiate with no less than four different representatives of that union and have started from scratch and go again. They are having a quite difficult time. That does not in any way, of course, absolve government of its responsibilities toward the farming community or of the economy of the province.

The negotiations with the union are the problems of Treasury Board, and as the hon.minister pointed out today, they have bent over backwards I think to try to facilitate the requests. I would hope thn.t the union sits down with Treasury Board again 1464

June 2, 1972, Tape 487, Page 2 -- apb and come up with some concrete proposals. That would be by far the easiest, simplest and best way out for everybody involved. Nevertheless, the fact remains that Newfoundland Farm Products Corporation has to continue and we hope that it will continue in the best possible interests of the farming community of the province. HR. THOMS: Hr.

Chairman, even though the Treasury Board is negotiating with these people down there, and apparently the Treasury Eoard,from what I understand from the Minister of Finnnce,is not going to budge on its last offer of two cents, which would make it twenty-two cents per hour, even though this is happening, the time is rapidly approaching when some of our producers are, you know, they are going to be just up the wall. MR. DOODY: MR. THOMS: MR. DOODY: !ffi. THOMS: Can the producers convince the union to go back to work? It is not the work of the producer. It is not government's fault either, Sir.

It may not be government's fault, but I am sure that there must be some way that this present government can get this plant back in operation. l·ffi, DOODY: I hope there is. MR. TIIOMS: If not, you are going to have a chaotic situation on your hands down there. HR. DOODY: That is right, Sir. MR.THOMS: We have one man and he has until Sunday or Monday now and he is going to lose roughly, he is going to lose exactly $28,800 worth of broilers. You have another man who is due to come in there on Monday. There are other producers in the same boat. MR, DOODY: MR.

THOMS: I have met with all of them, Sir, and all ••• Undoubtedly I am aware you have, but unless we can get these people back to work we are going to be in an awful situationt because, the time limit on this is very important. You have broilers ciut there in Whitbourne right now just putting on weight. The condition of 1465

June Z, 1972, Tape 488. Page l -- apb them are deterioratinp;. I am just wondering, Mr. Chairman, I notice that there is a decrease from last year to this year. Would this have any effect on the operation at all? HR. DOODY: I would hope not, SirJ the decreases will hopefully be offset by increased efficiency and improved management conditions. We have absolutely no intention of cutting back on the production or on the facilities that are available to the farming cormnunity. On motion, clauses 832-01 and 02, carried. HR. WOODWARD: Hr. Chairman, I assume that 03 is the Egg Marketing Board, is this the case? HR.

DOODY: No, this is not the Egg Marketing Board it is the Newfoundland Marketing Board. The Egg Marketing Board is an association of egg producers. It is completely independent of government. !"iR. WOODWARD: It is independent of government? .HR. DOODY: Yes, this is the Newfoundland Marketing Board which looks after the regulations of the rnarketinp; situation. ~!R. WOODWARD: Hr. Chairman, l understand that in the Egg HArketing Board, this is not under the Egg Marketing Board, but it may have dealings with the marketing of eggs and produce in the province as such.

Under the !tarketing Board which we will not refer to as the Egg Marketing Board as such, we ran :into a very difficult problem in Labrador, especially in the North

section of Labrador where we are forced into buying eggs from the Province of tlcwfoundland and maybe 1 this being a technical question, I do not know if the minister will have the answer for me. There was a solution that came up t-rith during the - we have no poultry producers in Labrador as such and we were forced into airlifting eggs into the Goose Bay Area and then in turn taking eggs from Goose Bay and flying them to the coast. HR. DOODY: Did you just ask me a question or was that a retort? MR.

WOODWARD: No, I was asking you a question when you were interrupted and I stopped for n brief ""period so you could ••• HR. DOODY: Oh I cee, carry on. If I may comment, no, it is okay, carry on, 1466

June 2, 1972, Tape 488, Page 2 -- apb f,;R. WOODWARD: This is a problem that we ran into and there was a subsidy that went into being for eggs being airlifted into Labrador. I want to know if this subsidy - what is the amount of the subsidy or if it is covered under this heading? HR. DOODY: I doubt very much that it is covered under this heading. This heading ls for the cost of administering the Marketing Board~ the Newfoundland Marketing Board. The cost of subsidy of eggs going into Labrador is something that I am not familiar with at all. I do not know what heading it comes under or what department.

It probably involves the Department of Labrador Affairs. HR. HURPHY: No, we have a subsidy on people flying, but I have heard nothing on eggs, but I could check it out if the hon. member wants me to. MR. DOODY: Nothing on eggs? MR. WOODWARD: Hr. Chairman, there is a subsidy on eggs because of the fact that, when the legislation was brought in the people in Labrador_ and it is a legislation that you must buy eggs produced in the province ••• HR. DOODY: That is right. MR. WOODWARD; We have no egg producers in Labrador. The freight rate out of St. John's versus the freight rate out of Moncton which was much greater.

Then we were forced into buying eggs and there was a subsidy brought into the Goose Bay Area, but then again the eggs have to go from Goose Bay on another airline t:hroq:;h to the coastal communities and to the north of Nain, There is a sub~;idy set up, I want to know how much that subsidy is? MR. DOODY: Sir, I do not doubt that there is a subsidy, but as I say, our department has nothing to do with it* HR. MURPHY: Shall we check it out on Monday? HR. DOODY: You could make an inquiry to that effect in vario'us other areas, I have no idea where it comes from.

I agree with you when you say that there is such a subsidy and~you know, I ct:rt.ninly would not- 1467

June 2, 1972 MR. DOODY: MR. WOODWARD: Tape no. 489 Page l - MRW I wish I had the information for him but I do not even - MR. Chairman, if the honourable minister would be kind enough, if he would research and find out and if he could give us the answer to the question~ MR. DOODY: We will do everything we possibly can. MR. THOMS: Could the minister give us some idea of what crops are involved? MR. DOODY: There