Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 15A (31st Legislature, 5th Session)

31-5-15a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542-5492 Fifth Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 30 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXIX No. 15A- 2:00p.m., TUESDAY, 10 FEBRUARY, 1981 Office of the Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty - First legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, A. R. (Pete) ANDERSON, Bob BANMAN, Hon. Robert (Bob) BARROW, Tom BLAKE, David BOSTROM, Harvey BOYCE, J. R. (Bud) BROWN, Arnold CHERNIACK, Q.C., Saul CORRIN, Brian COSENI, Hon. Keith A. COWAN, Jay CRAIK, Hon. Donald W. DESJARDINS, Laurent l. DOERN, Russell . DOMINO, Len DOWNEY, Hon. Jim DRIEDGER, Albert EINARSON, Henry J. ENNS, Hon. Harry J. EVANS, Leonard S. FERGUSON, James R. FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GALBRAITH, Jim GOURLAY,Hon.Doug GRAHAM, Hon. Harry E.

GREEN, Q.C., Sidney HANUSCHAK, Ben HYDE, Lloyd G. JENKINS, William JOHNSTON, Hon. J. Frank JORGENSON, Hon. Warner H. KOVNATS, Abe LYON, Hon. Sterling R. MacMASTER,Hon.Ken MALINOWSKI, Donald McBRYDE, Ronald McGILL, Hon. Edward McGREGOR, Morris McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., Hon. Gerald W. J. MILLER, Saul A. MINAKER, Hon. George ORCHARD, Hon. Donald PARASIUK, Wilson PAWLEY, Q.C., Howard PRICG, Hol'l. Norma RANSOM, Hon. Brian SCHROEDER, Vic SHERMAN, Hon. L. R. (Bud) STEEN, Warren URUSKI, Billie USKIW, Samuel WALDING, D. James WESTBURY, June WILSON, Robert G. Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield La Verendrye Flin Flon Minnedosa Rupertsland Winnipeg Centre Rhineland St. Johns Wellington Gimli Churchill Riel St. Boniface Elmwood St. Matthews Arthur Emerson Rock Lake Lakeside Brandon East Gladstone River Heights Kildonan Dauphin Swan River Birtle- Russell Inkster Burrows Portage Ia Prairie Logan Sturgeon Creek Morris Radisson Charleswood Thompson Point Douglas The Pas Brandon West Virden Roblin Osborne Seven Oaks St. James Pembina Transcona Selkirk Assiniboia Souris-Killarney Rossmere Fort Garry Crescentwood St. George Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Fort Rouge Wolseley Party NDP PC PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP NDP PC NDP PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC PC NDP PC PC PC lnd NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP NDP Lib lnd

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle Russell): Presenting Petitions .. Reading and Receiving Petitions ... PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. ABE KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report same and ask leave to sit again. 1 move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Dauphin. report of Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to table the Annual Report of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation for the fiscal year ending October 31, 1980. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. KEN. MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the Annual Report of the Pension Commission of Manitoba for the period January 1, 1980 to October 31, 1980.

I would also like to table the 63rd Annual Report of the Civil Service Commission for the year ending December 31, 1980. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Agriculture. Can the Minister of Agriculture advise whether or not Wells Land and Cattle Company has been acquiring sizable tracts of Manitoba farmland during the past year? HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): I'm sorry, Mr.

Speaker, there was some background discussion over there and I didn't hear the member. I wonder if he'd repeat the question. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Agriculture. Can the Minister of Agriculture advise whether or not Wells Land and Cattle Company has been acquiring large tracts of Manitoba farmlands during the past calendar year? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, I have no specific information or knowledge of any such company buying land but basically we live in a free province and I guess if they are residents of Canada or landed immigrants that they have the right to purchase such land but I am not aware of the specific situation he refers to. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, since it has been reported that Wells Land and Cattle Company has been purchasing large tracts of Manitoba lands due to the fact that it has sold many of its operations in Saskatchewn due to the tightening up by the Saskatchewan government of legislation pertaining to non-resident corporations engaged in agriculture, can the Minister indeed advise whether or not in view of the loosening provisions which permitted the establishment of paper corporations by his government, as a result of 1978 legislation, that indeed it is so, that as a result of the Saskatchewan tightening up of their legislation that this has opened up the way for non-resident corporations such as this to acquire large tracts of land in Manitoba as we are indeed being advised?

MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, if the individual was a Canadian citizen or a landed immigrant who is purchasing land we believe that they should have the right to purchase land. We believe in the right to hold property something that the New Democratic Party and the Liberal Party do not believe in in this country. That's a right that we have and I don't think that the people should have it removed from them. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I didn't expect that we would be preached to in such an emotional outburst as we have just been entertained to by the Minister of Agriculture.

The question dealt not with the issue of freedom for individuals, farmers, residents, to acquire farmlands. The question dealt with non resident corporate farm entities be engaged in agriculture in the Province of Manitoba, a situation which the Minister of Agriculture had left an impression that he had not loosened up the legislation only a month ago in this House dealing with the acquisition of farmlands by foreign interests. MR. DOWNEY: First of all, Mr.

Speaker, I think the Leader of the Opposition should identify the specific lands that he is concerned about as well as trying to tell us the people who are buying it are not Canadian citizens or landed immigrants who I believe built this country, Mr. Speaker. I do not believe that it's in the best interests of the agriculture community to restrict the development of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. We are presently dealing with the Department of Agriculture Estimates and I would suggest that this debate carry on in the Department of Agriculture Estimates rather than question period. 483

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, in view of this information. would the Minister advise whether or not he is presently reviewing his legislation relating that legislation to the Saskatchewan legislation in order to ascertain whether or not his legislation should be tightened up, more in line with that legislation which was just proclaimed a few months ago in Saskatchewan? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, as the Leader of the Opposition is quite aware, we have indicated in our Throne Speech that we are proposing changes that will in fact protect the farm community in Manitoba and also protect the rights of Canadians in being able to obtain land. But here is the Leader of the Opposition, on one hand, they are saying that the people are all leaving the Province of Manitoba and when people want to come to Manitoba they want to restrict them, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order. order please. Order please. ORDER PLEASE.

I realize that there is a desire to get to Estimates as quickly as possible so this matter can be discussed; however, we do have a 40-minute time period for questions. The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, may I address the Minister of Government Services and tell him that this is a dangerous weapon he has put into our hands, at least, self destructive. I would like to ask him, Mr. Speaker, whether it is the view of his government that the news media, particularly the large dailies of the CPS, are agents in the destruction of the free enterprise system. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, one is going to have to search that one for the barbs that I'm sure are contained therein. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, may I assist the Honourable Minister in being able to respond to my question by referring him to some

article that appears in the Scratching River Post wherein he is quoted and may I read that, Mr. Speaker, .. Honourable Jorgenson sees the news media, particularly the large dailies and the esc as being agents in the destruction of the free enterprise system." MR. JORGENSON: I don't think that it's proper for a question of that nature to be asked in this Chamber. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, then in view of the absence of the First Minister and the Deputy Premier. no reason why we I shouldn't ask the same Minister of Government Services, whether he can inform us if the appointment of six special public relations co-ordinators in sensitive government departments as a result of the government's conclusions that they can't rely anymore on newspapers and news reporters to get across the message of government which appears to be the statement of Mr. Jim Armit, the co-ordinator of communications for the Cabinet. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker, I am at a loss to understand why that question is directed to me because I don't see that it has anything to do with my department. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, it's just for clarification. I would like to know if any Minister of the government in the absence of the Premier or the Deputy Premier, other than the Honourable Minister of Government Services who doesn't know why the question is directed to him, if any of the Ministers who have such communicators and co-ordinators in their own departments to respond as to whether or not they are using these people in a way as described by Mr.

Armit to take care of the problem created by the fact that, in Mr. Armit's opinion, you can't rely any more on newspapers and news reporters to get across your message. So since I would assume that any of the Ministers on the front bench may well be employers of one of these six co ordinators that I would then have to ask if they would wish to respond to this question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I think one of the particular words that was used was the wrong one and I don't know if the Member for St. Johns has that word in the article. Did he say "appointed"?

It's very important, Mr. Speaker, that we clarify if - I think the Member for St. Johns said that Mr. Armit was quoted as saying that six people had been appointed. There has been none appointed. As Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission I can that there are none to my knowledge that have been appointed to positions.

What has taken place, when positions have been posted, a variety of people have bid on those positions which is the right of people to do so and this particular government and I think any other government in the country - unless there is some that I'm not aware of - do not have a ban on the news media, people for bidding on government jobs. It just so happens that a lot of them are very qualified and fell into the position, and so qualified, bid on it and got the job. MR.

CHERNIACK: On the point which was raised by the Honourable Minister of Labour asking whether the word "appointed" was correct, I would have to say to him the word "appointed" does not appear in this article. The word "hired" appears and the statement is not quoted but says six former news media people have been hired and between $28,000 to $32,000 a year as special public relations co ordinators in sensitive government departments.

I'm wondering without meaning to encroach on the question period, whether the Minister of Labour is the employer of one of those six highly paid special public relations co-ordinators. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, the jobs in question that I think the member is referring to and the gentleman that allegedly made those statements referred to were all jobs that were bulletined. Again, I 484

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 emphasize this government does not have a ban on people working for newspapers today, and in the past or in the future, we don't bar them from bidding on our bulletin jobs. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the Attorney General.

Can the Attorney-General tell me whether it is a fact that the Government of Manitoba and its lawyers are attempting to have a police investigation essentially, a police investigation commenced by Switzerland, conducted in the Province of Manitoba in a way in which no investigation could be conducted in our own province, that is, by calling witnesses, subpoenaing them to give evidence in support of a simple investigation.

Perhaps the word simple is not appropriate to this particular case but nevertheless, is it a fact that we are trying to have people subpoenaed and give evidence before a commissioner for what is essentially an investigative procedure which would not be permitted under our own investigative procedures? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the government and government lawyers that is employed on staff by the department are not involved in the proceedings to which the Member for Inkster refers. As he well knows the special prosecutor, Mr.

McGregor, hired by the previous government with respect to this matter is the lawyer in charge of these matters on the criminal side and as I understand it he has offered to assist the Swiss authorities in their request to take evidence in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, I think there is perhaps some misunderstanding as to the type of process that is involved here as compared to Switzerland. I understand that there has been a decision of the Court of Appeal with respect to the validity of those proceedings in Manitoba. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker, may I ask the Attorney General whether it is not a fact that four lawyers, gowned, representing the Province of Manitoba and paid for by the people of this province, namely Mr. Chapman, Mr. McGregor, Mr. Teskey, and Mr. Goodman of his department. were yesterday involved in a proceeding which Mr. Justice Hamilton subsequently found against us whereby we were trying to have people subpoenaed and give evidence under oath for an investigation?

Is it not also a fact that if the RCMP were conducting an investigation into criminal acts on the part of citizens in the Province of Manitoba no such procedure would be available nor would the Attorney-General countenace it. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, again Jet me say through you, Sir, to the Member for Inkster, the criminal proceedings with respect to this matter have, I believe, under the previous government and have under our government, been virtually in the complete discretion of the special prosecutor hired by the previous government to handle these matters.

I admit, Sir, that there is a procedure being used in this case from the viewpoint of the Swiss authorities. It is not a procedure that would be followed in similar proceedings in Manitoba or in Canada. The court has ruled on that, Mr. Speaker, and not allowed it and justifiably so. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to correct any impression that any counsel which I have had to do with, as a member of government, was operating at complete discretion.

Are not the Province of Manitoba the principals, are not the Province of Manitoba the persons to whom these solicitors report and is not the Attorney-General the person who ultimately accepts responsibility for what is done? If so, does he choose to leave a matter of this kind solely at the discretion of counsel without obtaining instructions from his principal? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, this procedure has been brought forward by Mr. McGregor at the request of the Swiss authorities, an investigation which has been ongoing for some time, was reviewed by as I understand it, with staff from my department.

The application was made, the application was turned down on appeal and that's where the matter stands. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns on a matter of privilege. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I'm very much concerned with the response given by the Honourable Attorney-General and I raised this because I am one of the persons that has been asked to attend and be examined. I want to inform the Honourable Attorney-General that I assume that whatever was being done by the special prosecutor who is employed by his government is being done with his concurrence. I don't want to read a lengthy letter, Mr.

Speaker, but the first sentence of the letter I received from this person whom I respect as a lawyer says, "As you are probably aware, the writer is a special prosecutor for the Manitoba Government regarding certain charges arising out of the construction of financing of the pulp and paper project at The Pas." He then goes on to refer to this Swiss application and says that they would like to have certain people volunteer to give evidence.

I'm not reading that portion but he does say, "I would hope that I would be able to get your consent to appear during that period of time in order that you might subject yourself to interrogation by Drs. Hirt and/or Bederman." Now the point I'm making as a matter of privilege, Mr.

Speaker, is during the time when I believe that members of the Legislature can say that they are in session and therefore not available for court proceedings, I have agreed to appear voluntarily in the expectation that the Honourable the Attorney General, as the chief law officer of this province, is being represented by the person who is a special prosecutor and whatever he is doing is with the concurrence and authority of the Attorney-General. 1 might say that's the only basis on which I voluntarily agreed to appear, other than that I would have certainly had the right to question whether or not 1 should do something like that.

So I would ask the Honourable the Attorney-General to clarify his role in this proceeding. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. The honourable member has asked a question of the 485

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 Attorney-General but I believe that he rose in his place on a matter of privilege and I would like to know exactly what the point of privilege that the member is trying to raise. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I would have to refer to the

section of the Act but I believe that a member of the Legislative Assembly is not required to appear in court on proceedings during a session. On that basis I could have relied on the law which I believe I've stated correctly, to say I'm busy with the proceedings of government and the involvement that every M LA has in the Legislature.

It was only because I assumed that the Honourable the Attorney-General was party to the request that I appear during a session and voluntarily that I agreed to appear because I thought I would be assisting the government in its efforts, whatever they are, in connection with this prosecution. So I rise as a member of the Legislature to ask on a matter of privilege whether or not I am correct in assuming that by agreeing to appear as I did voluntarily that I was doing so in compliance with an indirect but an implied request of the Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, and it's my understanding that most if not all of the persons to be interviewed voluntarily agreed to be interviewed by the Commission in the hopes as I understand it, of assisting the special prosecutor and the Swiss authorities in the investigation of this matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to pose one further question because I don't wish to leave any impression that there is any non-desire to assist people.

Is it not open to the special prosecutors, the investigators. to come to Manitoba and do exactly what the Royal Committee at the Mounted Police would do, that is. go to the Member for St. Johns, go to if need be the Governor-General or to myself or anybody else, and ask them questions and if these people then become difficult, I assume that there are courses of proceedings that would flow from them. But the Attorney-General's counsel and I say four lawyers. Mr. Speaker.

I was asked in the House when I was on that side of the House, who are the lawyers for the MDC and I said that we have one special counsel, his name is Freedman. Apart from that. three-quarters of the lawyers in the Province of Manitoba make their living out of the MDC. We had four lawyers. Mr. Speaker, attending this hearing. I repeat: Mr. Chapman, Mr. McGregor, Mr. Teskey, Mr.

Goodman. to deal with a motion of which they subsequently did not succeed with, to have an investigation under oath of an investigation, a procedure which would not be available to the RCMP if they were conducting an investigation in this provmce. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I think the difficulty in this matter arises because of Swiss proceedings, not because of Manitoba proceedings. I think the Member for Inkster is quite right, that if the Manitoba Government wished to investigate a matter in Manitoba it would simply go out and attempt to interview the witnesses voluntarily.

I think the difficulty in this case arises as a result of the Swiss procedures and that is why the procedure that was followed was followed. I want to undertake, Mr. Speaker, to review as a result of the most recent appeal proceedings the status of this matter with the special prosecutor, Mr. McGregor, and report back to the Member for Inkster and the Member for St. Johns and other members of the House as to how the investigation will be completed in Canada. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture.

My question relates to legislation, I'm given to understand, Mr. Speaker, that was passed in the Province of Saskatchewan by the Saskatchewan Government and it has regards to farm machine companies that manufacture equipment for the purposes of farmers to produce crops in this country. I'm wondering if the Minister could give us briefly information as regards to the legislation whereby farm machine companies if they want to continue business have to have their depots established in the Province of Saskatchewan. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. Order please, the Honourable Member of St.

George on a point of order. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. The point that I'm raising is that question, this debate, took place yesterday afternoon in this very House and the point that you have raised earlier, Sir, is that points of this nature could be best dealt with in the Estimates process. The Member for Rock Lake posed this question, this discussion yesterday, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. To the Honourable Member for St.

George may I point out that the Chair is not privy to the information that is conveyed in Committee and the question at this particular time seems to be a question seeking information. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for St. Vital on a point of order. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Speaker, I raise the point of order as to whether it is a proper question, direct to a question to a Minister in Manitoba about something that is within the purview of a Minister in another province. I suggest, Mr. Speaker, it's not in order. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. I've allowed the question to stand. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, in responding to the question for the Honourable Member for Rock Lake, I appreciate the sensitivity of the members opposite on such issues. I would first of all like to say that I 486

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 did not speak directly on this issue in Committee and the answer to the question is, Mr. Speaker, is that there is provincial legislation in Saskatchewan that tells the farm machinery company if they're distributing in that province that they have to have a supply depot in that province. The company known as John Deere were forced to move from Winnipeg with their central office to Regina. At this particular time International Company have some pressure being put on them to move from Winnipeg to Regina. I have to say, Mr. Speaker, we protest that kind of provincial legislation, Mr.

Speaker, that does nothing more than disunite Canada. I am a strong believer in a united Canada and when provincial governments MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Minister will have an opportunity during Estimates to make that kind of speech. He has provided the information and I hope that the answers to questions are short and to the point. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, pose a supplementary question on this very same matter which I think, Mr. Speaker, I speak on behalf of farmers of Manitoba.

I'm wondering if the Minister of Agriculture could indicate to this House, in particular to my fellow members opposite who seem to be so sensitive about this matter, what is going to be the effect to the farmers of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. If the honourable members would just allow the member to ask his question, I would be able to then ascertain whether or not it is in order. But when members keep constantly hollering I find it very difficult to hear what is going on. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I thank you for your assistance on this matter.

I would like to know if the Minister of Agriculture could very briefly inform the members of this House, and particularly the farmers of Manitoba, what that legislation in Saskatchewan may have as an effect economically on the farmers of this province? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. May I suggest that that question is more properly a question for Estimates and should be dealt with at that time. The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Labour. Could he advise as to whether he received any notice under

Section 35 of The Employment Standards Act from Eaton's with respect to their recent layoffs and, if so, was that an 8-week notice, a 12-week, or a 16-week notice? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I can get the precise details for the Member for Rossmere. The first notice, with the first group, I'm guessing, it was in the 20s or the 30s, there was not required notice. The second group, we did receive notice and 1 just can't recall whether it was an 8-week or a 16-week. I can get that information for the member. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

In view of the fact that it appears that a substantial number of employees have been laid off at Eaton's and possibly there have been more than 100 since the beginning of 1981 in small groups, in stages, has the Minister instructed his staff to investigate to determine whether The Employment Standards Act has in fact been met, the standards of that Act have been met with respect to each employee who has been laid off? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I don't recall, as I said, the exact number or the notice but I do recall that the appropriate notification was received.

Eaton's has laid off, or are in a process of laying off a good number of people. It's my understanding, and I've asked for the figures for this House and I think the Member for Rossmere would be interested in the number of jobs that have been created because of the openings of other stores by that particular company and shopping malls that they are involved in, so we can truly see what the balance in employment of Eaton's in the Province of Manitoba is. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere with a final supplementary. MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, it might be interesting to know exactly how many jobs Eaton's has provided in 1981 as opposed to the number of layoffs. But in view of the fact that it appears that Eaton's is violating the spirit, if not the actual letter of the Act, and I would refer the Minister to

Section 35.1(4) of the Act indicating that a notice is to be posted inside the place of employment for the appropriate time and it appears that has not been done, in view of the fact that none of those items of the Act have been complied with, and especially the spirit of the Act, has the Minister looked at the possibility of amending the Act to strengthen it so that employers must in fact be bound by it? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, I can certainly find out whether in fact appropriate notices were posted.

I'm not just sure what the Member for Rossmere means when he said that leads into, and leaves the innuendoes that in fact Eaton's were not complying with the Act, and then ends up his statement relating it to a question that maybe it was the spirit of the Act. I assure him I will find out whether they abided by the terms and conditions of the legislation that's in force in Manitoba and I can get that precisely for him. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I intended to direct a question to the Premier or the Deputy Premier but I therefore direct it to the Acting Deputy Premier. I would like to know whether it will be a regular feature of this Legislature that the First Minister of this province will be away one or two days each week? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. May 1 point out to the honourable member that questions in this House should be of a serious nature and not 487

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 frivolous. If the honourable member is serious in his question I will allow it to stand. MR. DOERN: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I think it is a serious matter that the First Minister of this Legislature is spending a great deal of time out of the province, in other provinces, and in foreign countries and I object to his behaviour in that regard. This is a serious question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Acting Premier. HON. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr.

Speaker, in response to the question of the Member for Elmwood, I presume that he is placing this in a serious way to this House. Surely, Mr. Speaker, the Member for Elmwood must appreciate that the matters which occupy the Premier of this province, today and yesterday, are matters of great seriousness and of great importance to the people of Manitoba and to the people of Canada. Mr. Speaker, surely the Member for Elmwood, who is elected as a responsible member of this Assembly, does appreciate the debate and the argument which is going on now which very directly affects the lives of every citizen of our country.

MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would also like to ask the Acting Deputy Minister whether this serious business that requires the First Minister to be out of the province is the real reason for the largest Cabinet in Manitoba history, some 18 members, never before seen in this House. So heavy, indeed, Mr. Speaker. that it spilled over into the third row and I'd like to know whether it is because of the urgency of this issue that your administration has appointed the largest Cabinet in Manitoba history to allow several absentees each and every day, whether on business or on monkey business. MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I have to rule the question out of order on the fact that it is facetious. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. I wonder if he would tell the House whether he has had any recent meetings with the official delegation of the City of Winnipeg or if any are coming up in the near future. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Yes, to both questions, Mr. Speaker. MRS. WESTBURY: Well then. Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister would advise us whether he has already. or whether he proposes to insist to the City that the Provincial Government, being a financial partner in the administration of the City, whether he would insist that city-owned recreational facilities be made available to males and females equally and participation in activities in those facilities be based on ability to qualify as athletes rather than on the sex of the individual? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, if the Member for Fort Rouge is referring. as I think she is. to the incident involving three female hockey players in the City of Winnipeg, I can advise her that I met yesterday morning with the President of the Greater Winnipeg Minor Hockey Association to attempt to discuss with him the possibility of the three girls involved at least having the opportunity to complete the hockey season with the teams for which they have been playing this year. Mr.

Speaker, the president advised me and showed to me the rules of the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association which I would suspect have being amended in recent years to refer to every male person rather than any player and he told me that he has no discretion, by virtue of the CAHA regulations, to allow the girls to complete the present hockey season which I think, Mr. Speaker, is very unfortunate. MRS.

WESTBURY: Well I'm really gratified that the Minister is attempting to intervene in this and I wonder if he would then perhaps accept the suggestion that we should prevail upon the city not to allow the use of city-owned facilities when the operators, the officials of the association, are in violation of our own Human Rights Act and the decent instincts of the people of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Speaker, I think with respect to the use of facilities that is a question that will have to be determined by the City of Winnipeg.

With respect to the comment on the Human Rights Commission jurisdiction, they have examined the precedent apparently that was established in Ontario some years ago where the courts ruled that the Human Rights Commission did not have jurisdiction and it would appear under the legislation that the Human Rights Commission does not have jurisdiction. I can say however, Mr. Speaker, that they are in the process of corresponding with various sporting associations in the Province of Manitoba to attempt to elicit their views on this subject matter. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for question period has expired.

We'll proceed with orders of the day. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker, do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committe to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty_ MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Economic Development and Tourism.

CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND TOURISM MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the Committee to order. We are on Resolution 49, Page 44. 2.(c)(1)- the Member for Burrows. 488

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: You will recall that last year the Minister was quite proud of opening an export office in Mexico. In fact I believe that he went down there for the opening of it. Could he brief the committee on his success or failure with the operation of that office. Now that it's been in operation for one year I think that the members of the committee would be interested in knowing whether the operation of that export office in Mexico city is paying dividends or not. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. J.

FRANKLIN JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): The office in Mexico has been accepted by the businessmen of Manitoba generally as a step in the right direction for their benefit and 35 Manitoba companies have used the office since the opening in May 1980. A market study plan in the northwest area of Mexico was undertaken in May and June of 1980 on behalf of the agricultural equipment industry in Manitoba. The results of the study were provided to 26 Manitoba companies.

A sales mission with four participants from the agricultural equipment industry was organized in September 1980 to visit and identify buying companies in northwest Mexico for agricultural equipment. The mission resulted in a series of negotiations being undertaken with Manitoba firms and sales contracts are in process. One agricultural firm is demonstrating its equipment in the agricultural community in northwest Mexico. Eleven companies visited Mexico individually for sales negotiations and these are in various stages of development.

In December 1980 a seminar on trading opportunities with Mexico was held in Winnipeg with attendance of 105 persons. The seminar was addressed by the Canadian Ambassador to Mexico and the Mexican Ambassador to Canada, along with government officials and businessmen from Manitoba and Mexico. I might also report that the Federal Government is very enthusiastic about what we are doing in Mexico. We have had representation that the Mexican Canadian Businessmen's Association.

The Federal Government announcements on the meetings with the Federal Ministers and the President of Mexico are encouraging trade between Mexico and all parts of Canada and are very happy that we have an office down there with a person working in Mexico on behalf of Manitoba manufacturers with the hope of the Manitoba manufacturers making sales there. MR. HANUSCHAK: How many staff do we have in Mexico? MR. JOHNSTON: Just still two people. We have a receptionist. The girl that we had last year left us and we have another receptionist now, and Mr. Gonzalo, our analysist, is still a representative of us down there.

MR. HANASCHAK: I was looking at the Annual Report for the year ending 1980. Could the Minister just refresh our memory when the Mexican office opened. MR. JOHNSTON: It was in May 1980. I'm informed it was the 7th of May. MR. HANUSCHAK: Now that raises an interesting question because the Minister's report for the year ending March 31st, 1980 shows a $5,000 salary item for the Mexico, whatever he calls that office. To help the Minister, page 33. MR. JOHNSON: I don't need any help from you, we'll find it. MR. HANUSCHAK: I was just being kind. MR. JOHNSTON: We'll find that information for you, Mr. Chairman. MR.

HANUSCHAK: It would appear then, Mr. Chairman, that The Manitoba Trade and Tourism Office in Mexico City has been in operation for a longer period of time than the Minister has indicated and listening to the Minister's review of their operations it seems to the Committee that no Manitoba manufacturer has come back with an order in his pocket as yet resulting from the operations of this office, which you know as of a year ago the cost of its operations are $22,000 and now he has two people of staff full-time.

I don't know what rate of pay he pays them in Mexico, whether he pays them at the Canadian rates of pay or Mexican. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the official opening was May 7th and furnishings of office startup costs were $9,286, bank charges and transfer fees $1,599.27, rent $520 previous to March 31st, 1940, salaries $5,227.27, travel $5,575.50 for a total of $22,208.84 as the startup cost for the office which was started up in May. MR. HANUSCHAK: So these were expenses incurred prior to the opening, is that correct? MR. JOHNSTON: The office had an official opening in May. The office was opened ... MR.

HANUSCHAK: I'm not concerned about when the Minister went down for his cocktail party. MR. JOHNSTON: Well, Mr. Chairman, on that issue, if that's the kind of question I'm going to have I refuse to answer them. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, my question to the Minister is and the Minister may refuse to answer it if he wishes; my question is, are these two expense items, the $5,000-plus salary item and the $5,500- plus dollar expense item, are these costs incurred prior to the - I'm not concerned about his official opening, prior to the opening of the Mexico office for business? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Ornelas' salary costs were incurred prior to the - well, the official opening, if you want to call it that, but his costs were incurred beginning in January of 1980 and at that time he started to put the office together, buy the furniture, find office space, etc., and there were costs incurred in 1980, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Rouge, I believe is next. 489

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 MRS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes. on the Mexican office. We don't have any quarrel with the Minister's stressing of the fact that we need to establish ties with Third World countries, but my Party would like to get some answers on the Provincial Trade and Tourism Office in Mexico city. And we would like to know what specific progress has been made in the terms of developing markets, Mr. Chair. for Manitoba business and tourism, what markets have - give us some names and figures.

Who has benefitted from this, apart from the nice little convention-type happiness things that have been going on with meetings here and there and travelling back and forth. Give us some names of some firms that have benefitted please and how much business in dollar terms has been generated by the office and has the ratio of imports versus exports between Manitoba and Mexico changed at all. MR. JOHNSTON: We can supply you with the names of the firms.

I mentioned there were 35 companies have used the office in Mexico, and I mentioned there was a sales mission with four participants went down and they used the office. Out of the office there was a market study supervised for Mexico. There were 11 individual company visits and then of course we had the Mexican seminar here in Manitoba. The office has, I can name one company who have made sales through the Mexican office, Washtronics. We'll get you his phone number too. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Rouge. Is the Member for Fort Rouge finished? MRS.

WESTBURY: Were the sales completely negotiated from beginning to end after the office opened or was that already initiated before the office was opened? MR. JOHNSTON: Washtronics have been selling in Mexico. I believe since before the office opened. As a matter of fact they hadn't sold at that time, they have negotiated since the office opened, working with Mr. Ornelas, using the Mexican office, and I have had phone calls from him saying how pleased he was with the co-operation he received when he was in Mexico City. Co-op Implements have used the office extensively and they have, I'm told, made sales.

Presently the people from Chicken Delight, I know, were just down there and used the office extensively, in fact the invitation is extended to every businessman to use that office. Whether they make a sale or not they use that office. They interview people there. They use it as their base while they are operating in Mexico City and also they have, Mr. Ornelas to assist them to put them together with people in Mexico. MRS. WESTBURY: Well I think that's very nice that they use the office. I would take that for granted. I don·t think that's a matter the Minister should take a lot of credit for.

Could he give us the figures on the sales for Washtronics and Co-op Implements in the year before the office was opened and in 1980 - 1979 as opposed to 1980? MR. JOHNSTON: I'll have to ask - we'll contact the companies for those figures. MRS. WESTBURY: You don't have the figures? MR. JOHNSTON: The companies don't have to give us their figures. MRS.

WESTBURY: I thought that in view of the fact we have established this office, I thought that the Minister would be obtaining the figures from the companies in order to justify the fact that he is keeping the office going and the budget of $56,000 which was projected for the office. Could I ask him how much business in dollar terms? Does he have any dollar figure at all for the business that's being generated by or through this office? MR.

JOHNSTON: We would have to investigate that with the companies that have worked there and ask them if they would be willing to give us figures of sales that they have made in Mexico since the opening of the office. MRS. WESTBURY: I would think, Sir, that . MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, let me add this. Manutrade is not their salesman. They do not sell the products through Manutrade. They sell the products, if they sell any, directly from the company to the purchaser. The government has nothing to do with the sales. We put the people together with people that are prospects to do business. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Chair, we are not all totally naive. I think we understand that. I would think, Mr. Chair, that these organizations being good corporate citizens and presumably wanting the office to remain in existence would be happy to supply the government with any corroborative figures that would enable the government to justify keeping the office in existence. So perhaps before we come to the Minister's Salary, he would be kind enough to provide those figures to the committee.

Can he tell us in view of the fact that it's public knowledge the ratio of exports and imports, whether there has been any, as I asked before, whether there has been any change in those figures at all; whether they have shifted. MR. JOHNSTON: The Chairman was just asking me something. I've got the part of the question where you requested that we contact the companies regarding sales. We will endeavour to do that. I can't guarantee it. The companies can give us any information that they want or not want to. MRS.

WESTBURY: Has the ratio of imports versus exports between Manitoba and Mexico shifted at all or shifted significantly? MR. JOHNSTON: Manitoba exports to Mexico in 1980 were 4,702,000, that's January to September of 1980; January to September of 1979 was 1,927,000; January to September, 1978, was 2,265,000.00. MRS. WESTBURY: What were the imports, Mexico to Manitoba, please, for the same period? MR. JOHNSTON: The imports for January to September of 1980 were 4.328,000; January to September, 1979, 5,094,000; January to September, 1978, 4,539,000.00. 490

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 MRS. WESTBURY: Mr. Chair, when do you think that we can have the figure for the entire year of 1980? What ratio? Is that not the annual year in which you compute these things? MR. JOHNSTON: This is the very latest information we've received and it probably would be, according to my official, about two months, he says, before the final figures have come out. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr. Speaker, given that the projected budget was 56,000 and there were two persons employed, the rent was $500.00.

There was some questions from the Manitoba Trading Corporation Auditor's Report that I would like to pursue. Under Exhibit A, there's an item, Advance to Employee re Manitoba Trade and Tourism Office. Would the Minister explain this amount of $8,000- odd. please? MR. JOHNSTON: I'll take that as notice and get the explanation for tonight. MRS. WESTBURY: Note 3, to the financial statements indicates that the rent amounted to $520.40, as it matched the 31st, 1980. Does that indicate that the Mexican office became operational on March 1, 1980?

If that is so, how are the other items in Note 3 accounted for; Salaries shown as amounting to 5,227 and Travel, 5,575? Are these also for one-month period? How can that be rationalized? MR. JOHNSTON: Well, I thought I just answered it earlier. Mr. Ornelas was on staff with the Manitoba Government in January and during that time he made the arrangements for the office furnishings, etc. and made the arrangements for the office before that actually, and he started to occupy the office on March 1, 1980; it was officially opened on May 7th. MRS.

WESTBURY: So that the two figures that are over $5,000, they are not for a one-month period, those are for a three-month period. MR. JOHNSTON: That is correct. MRS. WESTBURY: Thank you. My final question on this is, how many businessmen have utilized the services provided by the office. You've mentioned two firms that have completed sales. How many firms actually have used the office for their negotiations? MR. JOHNSTON: I have stated three times today that 35 Manitoba companies have used the office. I'm not aware of how many people that each company took with them. MRS.

WESTBURY: Has the government helped to defray travel or any other expenses of these firms travelling to Mexico apart from enabling them to use the office? Have we subsidized their travel or any other expenses? MR. JOHNSTON: The agricultural people on the agricultural program, I mentioned here that the sales mission of four participants from Agriculture Equipment Industry was organized in September 1980 to visit buying companies in north-west Mexico for agriculture equipment. They were assisted through the Enterprise Manitoba Program. MRS. WESTBURY: That was four individuals? MR. JOHNSTON: Four participants. MRS.

WESTBURY: All right, thank you, Mr. Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Burrows. MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman, could the Minister indicate to us the exact role or describe the role and function of the staff that he has in Mexico City. He did indicate that there were 35 business firms which used the facilities provided by him for them in Mexico, which is one firm every ten or eleven days or so. So what does this staff do in between times?

In other words, is their only role and function just to unlock the door and turn on the lights or are they also expected to work within the country and seek out export markets for Manitoba industry? That's question No. 1. Question No. 2, do they work beyond the boundaries of the country of Mexico because you will note, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister had indicated in his report that this staff is expected, the staff of two is expected to cover quite a wide territory including Central America and South America? Perhaps he could advise us on their operations outside of Mexico in Central and South America. MR.

JOHNSTON: We have not moved into Central America as yet. We have concentrated our efforts in the Mexico office in Mexico. MR. HANUSCHAK: You have not moved into Central America. Have you moved into South America? MR. JOHNSTON: No. MR. HANUSCHAK: Is it the Minister's intention to move into Central and South America this year? MR. JOHNSTON: No, we may investigate South America, but as far as making a major effort in South America, that's not intended for this year. MR. HANUSCHAK: Oh, so this is another flim-flam because the Minister says that the office will also cover the Central and South American markets.

He doesn't say that well, we may, we may not, we're going to investigate but we were not sure. The Minister is quite definite and specific that the office will also cover Central and South American markets. Now he's changing his mind. MR. JOHNSTON: It will cover Central and South American markets if and when we move into it. It will be covered from Mexico. MR. HANUSCHAK: Oh, I see. The Minister's intentions are really quite different from those stated within his report. MR. JOHNSTON: Not necessarily, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, as we should understand in the Committee, the Federal 491

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 Government of Canada does have a Trade Commissioner at the Canadian Embassy in Mexico City. This is a problem I think this country faces in its trade relationships with other countries; that is. the competition by the provinces for trade in other parts of the world. I think this is unfortunate that we have some provinces, particularly Quebec and Ontario, and to the lesser extent, Alberta, virtually competing with the Federal Government by putting up trade offices in various centres of the world, virtually in competition with the Federal Trade Commissioners Service.

My experience is that we have an excellent Federal Trade Commissioners Service and they are quite willing to respond to the provinces upon request. I would lament the fact. and I do lament the fact, that Canadian provinces have seen fit to go out and to represent their own interests over, above and beyond the interest presumably to be represented by the Federal Trade Commissioner in that city or in that country. I think it must be very confusing to people in these other countries to see not one, but several. representatives of trade interests, business interests. from Canada.

Manitoba has not been guilty of this up until I suppose now in a sense that we have this office. Admittedly it is a very modest operation. Let's face it, it's a very modest operation and I'm sure the intentions are good on the part of the Minister of the department. I don't question the motives, but I do wonder whether really we are substantially assisting our Manitoba businessmen. I believe that the Manitoba business people who do have interests in Mexico could very well be served by the Canadian Trade Office there.

The Trade Commissioner and his staff I know are willing, able and have in the past assisted Manitoba businessmen. I'm wondering, specifically, have we now attracted away the Manitoba businessmen from the Canadian Trade Office in Mexico City. Do fewer of these people, these business persons, go to the Trade Office in Mexico City now?

If they are from Winnipeg, or Brandon, or wherever they are from Manitoba, do they go to the Manitoba office and in effect are we virtually drawing, if you like, business away - if you want to use that expression or I might use that expression - from the services provided or offered by the Canadian Trade Commissioner. MR. JOHNSTON: No. Mr.

Chairman, and according to Augustine Gomez, the Ambassador to Canada from Mexico, and Claude Charland, the Ambassador to Mexico from Canada. when they both attended the Mexico trade meeting that was held here in Winnipeg. they both took the time to come up and speak. they both took the time, especially Mr. Charland to say that the co-operation between the two offices was excellent and they welcomed the office from Manitoba in Mexico to work with the Canadian Embassy as we have always done.

As I explained when we announced the office in my Estimates last year that the reason for the office is the Canadian Trade Office works with Canada and all provinces of Canada. but there are times when you're on the spot that you can do better for your own manufacturers and that is what our intention is, IS to assist Manitoba manufacturers in a very large growing market. There has been no effort to take anything away from the Canadian Embassy. As a matter of fact. they all work very well together. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, lloyd G. HYDE (Portage Ia Prairie): The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR.

EVANS: Based on that premise or that policy of trying to assist Manitoba businessmen in Mexico to a greater degree than they could be assisted with the federal office, I'd like to ask the Minister, has he given thought or has the department considered setting up offices in the Middle East? As we all know, large amounts of income are now accruing to such countries as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, etc. These two are very much in the category of developing countries. They are in a position of course to buy various kinds of equipment that is made in Manitoba.

I would suggest everything from dust collecting equipment to air conditioning equipment, telephone equipment and various items that we do well, that we can produce in this province of ours. I would think that would be a priority area because as we realize they do have the cash flow now. They have the income and I know they are attempting to modernize their economies and so on. It would seem to me that if there is any priority that would be an area that should be given serious consideration.

I'm not suggesting whatsoever that we have offices in competition with the Federal Government; in fact, I lament that, but it seemed to me that there may be more potential in the Middle East than there is in Mexico. MR. JOHNSTON: Our priority has been Western Canada, the States to the south of us, the western part of the United States and Mexico. The Canadian government feels that Mexico is a very large priority and there is a very good opportunity for Manitoba manufacturers to do well in the Mexican market with an effort being put on it.

We have no intention at the present time of opening up offices in the Middle East; our priority is Mexico at the present time. It's much more better geographically located. They have very similar types of agricultural operation that we do and we are able to introduce our manufacturers of products in Manitoba into that area and our products fit very well in that area. There is no question that I would probably like to have offices in many different places, but our first priority, our first decision was to open a small office in Mexico.

The honourable member well knows that he had the same person working for him in Mexico as we have working for us at the present time. MR. EVANS: I wasn't aware that it was the same person. We certainly had a sales person in that area who didn't have an office, but I understand worked out of his home. At any rate, I wonder if the Minister could give us at least an approximate idea of the sales facilitated by Manitrade by country.

In other words, just what are the countries that Manitrade is involved with and could he give us an approximate idea, is it 20 percent to the United States and 5 percent to Mexico and X percent to Germany or whatever? Could the staff, the Minister, give us an approximation of sales facilitated by Manitrade by country? MR. JOHNSTON: Excuse me, could the member just repeat the last part of the question? I got the first part. 492

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 MR. EVANS: Is it possible for the Minister to give us a breakdown of sales facilitated by Manitrade - Manitoba Trading Corporation - by country. In other words, could he give us an approximation of all the activities of the Manitoba Trading Corporation? What percent went to let's say the United States; what percentage went to Mexico; what percentage went to Germany or whatever country? Is there some approximate idea that the Minister could give us to see just where the activity is? MR. JOHNSTON: I'll get that information for the honourable member and give it to him tonight. MR.

EVANS: The Minister mentioned that the priority was to facilitate sales elsewhere in Canada and I agree with him in that priority; that's the logical first market for us and I agree the second logical market is then probably upper mid-western portion of the United States, simply by virtue of geographic proximation. What special efforts has the Manitoba Trading Corporation or the staff engaged in market development, engaged in export sales, and I use the term exports meaning exports out of the province not out of the country but out of the province?

What special efforts have been made, if any, to sell to Western Canada, facilitate the sale by Manitoba business establishments to Western Canada? MR. JOHNSTON: The Manitoba Trade, Manitrade, does not facilitate any sales. Manitrade is basically a bridge financing organization at the present time which operates the office in Mexico but the Manitrade do not go out and sell. I explained this last year. The Manitrade is no longer a selling agency for companies.

Under this particular part of the Estimates we have in Market Development a general manager, one development officer, two administrative secretaries, a receptionist, two staff, one a co-ordinator and one development officer responsible for special projects, that's the co-ordinator for special projects being Mr. Murray Armstrong on NFA and the Canadian Patrol Frigate Program.

The six development officers are assigned to market representation, two for Western Canada, one for south central United States, one for the west coast, one for USA mid-west and one for the northwest, and three staff for market services, one senior development officer, one development officer and clerk for operations - there's 16 people in this division.

The operation of the division is to have your development officers become very aware of the products that are manufactured by Manitoba firms and the call on their territories, contact the Consuls in these particular areas other than Western Canada and certainly in the United States. They call on companies on the basis of representing Manitoba manufacturers and present to them a manufacturer in Manitoba that these people may have reason to buy from or could buy from. After the contacts are made, they're put together with the Manitoba manufacturer and the Manitoba manufacturer does his own selling.

We would assist at that time on information regarding the tariffs, freight, et cetera, all of the information that they may need. The Sourcing Program is also handled in this department. The representatives have the availability of the Sourcing Program that is presently in place that I mentioned last night, I was asked about, and they use the Sourcing Program to a very great extent. Manitrade is not a sales organization for companies. MR. EVANS: I guess it's a matter of phraseology.

I asked what efforts were made to facilitate sales and I gather what the development officers are doing is simply that; they're facilitating sales. At any rate I don't want to get hung up on

definitions. One question about this Mexican office. Does it have any promotional literature on the province and has that promotional literature now been translated into Spanish? Last year we were told that there was no Spanish material which I would think would be in order if you're dealing with a country that speaks Spanish. If you want to sell, you have to sell in the language that the potential customers can understand and it would seem to me appropriate to do this. MR. JOHNSTON: The literature that we have on Manitoba is available. We have literature in economic development.

It is not translated into Spanish, that's one of the obvious reasons for the office is that we have people that can interpret for Canadian businessmen. The company that is doing the selling to the contacts made in Mexico have the responsibility to supply their own literature. We don't translate companies' literature for them. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(

c) the Member for Brandon East MR. EVANS: In looking at the latest Annual Report that we've been given, the year ending March 31, 1980 of the department on Page 33, Exhibit B refers to the Manitoba Trading Corporation's Report of Finances, Exhibit B, Statement of Revenue and Expenditure. I note that

whereas in 1979 the Corporation was in the black so to speak - in 1979 it shows $12,886 in brackets but that's expenditure under revenue. In other words revenues exceeded expenditures for March 31, 1979 when there was a fair amount of sales by the Manitoba Trading Corporation. In 1980 the sales dropped considerably to 161,000. In other words there was a lot less activity by the Manitoba Trading Corporation and it's interesting to note that it lost money, $18,605.00. What accounted for the reduction in sales? In 1979 it shows almost 640,000 and then it drops to 161,00.

Is this because of the policy of not being involved whatsoever in helping sales by being involved as it's described here in sales? In other words it says the Trading Corporation participated directly in export sales totalling 161,000 with earnings, etc. etc. In addition sales of 512,000 were assisted without taking title of goods but by providing marketing and operational assistance. MR. JOHNSTON: As I mentioned, in 1980 we did not use Manitrade as a sales office. We did not produce, purchase merchandise and resell it and that is the reason for the drop.

I'm told there were some negotiations or some deals I guess you could call them in the process but the policy was changed in 1980. 493

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 MR. EVANS: Does the Minister agree with my observation. I think I'm reading it properly - you lost money in the last year, 18,600, nor does this include the salaries of the people that may be assisting this Corporation so actually on a balance sheet basis there is a greater loss. Really there's a subsidy in effect through free services of the officers of the department who are making Manitrade work because there are no wages, no salaries shown in the expenditures. So I guess if salaries were shown there would be considerable loss.

So really this is not a comprehensive balance sheet or a comprehensive revenue and expenditure statement for the Trading Corporation. MR. JOHNSTON: The loss of 18,000 was incurred because of the 22.000 of the opening of the office in Mexico. But you are correct. The employees for Manitrade and the Board of Manitrade are all employees of the Provincial Government and the staff that handle all the work for Manitrade are employees of the government. MR. EVANS: Has the Minister, he may not have it immediately but can the Minister tell us what the trend has been in export sales from the province?

It may be very difficult to estimate this in connection with what Manitrade itself has done, what the staff has done under the Market and Development Program? Probably they've got figures on export sales in total whether they've been involved or not. In other words what is the value of goods and services sold out of the Province of Manitoba over a number of years so we can just see what has been happening? Are we upward or are we going down or are we staying constant? MR. JOHNSTON: In January to September 1980 which is the latest information again and the countries are U.S., United Kingdom, Japan, West Germany.

Norway, Belgium, France, Australia, Netherlands and Italy; the total tor those countries was $743 million, all countries $798,848,million and that's an increase over '79 - '79 was $698,351.00. MR. EVANS: Does that include sales to elsewhere in Canada? MR. JOHNSTON: All those are sales to outside of Canada. MR. EVANS: My last question on this, I may have another set of questions I'm not sure. Is there any particular thrust that we're going to see in the coming year by this staff, by the Market Development staff?

Have we got any special export shows. exhibits, trade fairs. or any special efforts that are going to be made in the coming year to assist Manitoba business in selling outside of Manitoba? MR. JOHNSTON: Let me just go through the intentions for 1982.

There's the Mexican office; we hope to be introducing new companies into the Mex1can market. continuation of expansion of capital projects to include projects in the mining, hydro electric sector and other energy related fields and this is part of the Sourcing Program with the marketing officers. the establishment of public purchasing sourcing system with Manitoba to include the Provincial Governments, the Federal Government and municipal purchasing, examination of the Manitoba service sector including consultants, engineers and other service organizations.

Re-evaluation of the priority market areas will be undertaken as to provide the most effective development efforts in the Manitoba industry; continued support to the Canadian outerwear fashion as well as the organizations and exhibitions at the major Canadian trade fairs; the continuation of the expansion of educational seminar program and of course we have the two gentlemen who have been working on the NFA Program which is not completely written down and then of course the new program, the Canadian Patrol Frigate. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c)(1) pass; 2.(c)(2) pass; 2.(d)(1) pass - the Member tor Brandon East. MR.

EVANS: Is this the area that provides support to the Regional Development Corporations or is any support being provided by staff? There used to be liaison and co-ordination, etc. What is happening in that area? MR. JOHNSTON: I'm just not sure. This is the area where it would be co-ordinated. The assistance to the Economic Development - did you say the Economic Development Corporation? Regional Economic Development Corporation is mainly done through Enterprise Manitoba; the financial assistance is done through Enterprise Manitoba. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 2.(d)(1) pass; 2.(d)(2) pass; 2.(eX1) pass- the Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: The Minister was going to give us some information today on the, I think it was the Canadian Food Products Centre, but also the Brandon Centre and the Winnipeg Development Centre. as to the extent to which they were being utilized. It was indicated that they were not being fully utilized and we wondered what the capacity of these two establishments were or these two centres were, Brandon and Winnipeg, and just to what extent they've been utilized.

And then I have some questions separately on the Food Products Centre; we could just leave the Food Products Centre aside for the moment. MR. JOHNSTON: The Canadian Food Products Centre in Portage Ia Prairie has ten staff - program director, two product development scientists, one analyst, chemist, one microbiologist, three lab technologists, one administrative secretary and one research assistant. They have completed the physical expansion of the food centre in May, 1980 and it was officially opened in June, 1980.

Core staff completed and was hired by May, 1980; basic equipment tor pilot plant production of meat products has been purchased and installed; additional pilot plant and lavatory equipment purchased and installed; a major project involving the process development and pilot plant production of silverskin onions was undertaken at the centre; approximately 50 tons of material was processed and sent to clients for evaluation; encouraging response from potential clients have been received; 494

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 processing data has been prepared for the supporting Manitoba company. The food centre has worked with approximately 80 Manitoba food companies in an attempt to provide technical assistance for the purpose of economic development. Before approximately 40 projects were carried out at the centre of which about half of an analytic nature and half product and/or process development; five seminars or group meetings held at the centre for technology transfer or program promotion. MR.

EVANS: Since we're talking about the food products centre, I'd like to ask the Minister why is it that there are what is referred to in the accounts as unexpected funds? That's what it says, unexpected funds, maybe they mean unexpended funds, at the beginning of the year or at the end of the year. Again. on Page 26 of the Annual Report, the last Annual Report that we have, it shows that $323,000 was the balance of unexpected funds - I'm just reading the statement - at the beginning of the year.

Just recapping, the receipts were $414,000 approximately and disbursements were roughly $162,000, so the excess of receipts over disbursements were $253,000 and then there was a carry-over I guess from the previous year of roughly $71,000.00. So you have $323,000.00. Does this mean, Mr. Chairman, that the Centre is not utilizing the amount of money that the Federal and Provincial Governments together have made available for it? In other words, is this Centre being over-funded by the governments? MR.

JOHNSTON: The moneys that you are referring to are provided in the form of an advance and it is used and then more money is provided in the form of an advance. You are referring to Page 26, Exhibit B? MR. EVANS: Yes. MR. JOHNSTON: They are provided in a form of an advance and they are used and then there is money more advanced. MR. EVANS: What is the meaning of this? What this means, I believe, is that for whatever reason the Food Products Development Centre has not been able to utilize. In Portage Ia Prairie, maybe the Member for Portage would take a particular interest in this.

Here is your food centre that has a certain amount of funding available to it and it's not being utilized. I note under the 1980 column the balance of unexpected funds at the beginning of the year was 344. At any rate there is an adjustment, there is $312,500 refunded I guess back to the Province of Manitoba and the Government of Canada. In other words, this multi-million-dollar program that's been announced, we're not using it all. We're refunding it back to Ottawa or back to the general Treasury. Is that a correct

interpretation? Maybe I'm not reading this properly but it seems to me that for whatever reason we're not able to utilize the financial resources that have been made available to this food products development centre. While we've had big announcements of all this money that's going to be spent, we're turning around and not utilizing it and virtually refunding it back to the Treasuries of Ottawa and Manitoba. MR. JOHNSTON: I'm informed by the officials that there was a shift in the agreement from Industry, Trade and Commerce. Just let me get this clear.

Yes, there was an agreement with Industry, Trade and Commerce that preceded the DREE agreement and we'll have to get you more details on how that shift took place but that is the reason for the moneys that you see here, the 323,263.86. MR. EVANS: There was an interruption when the Minister was speaking. Is it correct then that those moneys have gone back to the general Treasury? Look at the note underneath, Adjustments, Note 2, Refund on 1979 grants, received from the Government of the Province of Manitoba and the Government of Canada, $312,500.00. MR. JOHNSTON: It's an accounting.

Previously the grants came from the Government of Canada, I.T. and C. The Enterprise Manitoba then took over the operation through the Manitoba Research Council of the operation of the Portage Ia Prairie Food Technology Centre. I'm informed that this is an accounting that had to be done when that change took place and we will get you the details on it. But previously that Centre - the full name of it is the Canadian Food Products Development Centre - and the funds from the Federal Government were paid through I.T. and C. It is now handled in a different way and we'll get you the detail on that. MR.

EVANS: Let me go about this a different way. What is the annual budget for the Canadian Food Products Development Centre? In other words, what amount of money is available to it in a particular year? I mean as I would read this statement - now this is a grant account. There are other receipts as well but the grant account shows receipts of over $761,000 so I would have thought that is the budget available to that Centre. And it disbursed moneys, $739,000 approximately, and there was in excess however of receipts over disbursements.

It underspent by $21 ,500 but then there was this balance of unexpected funds from the previous year so that $344,808 was the balance at the beginning of the year and of that it seems to me that a great chunk of that is given back to the provincial and federal Treasuries. But the general question is, what are the funds that are available to this Centre and are they all being utilized? I would say the answer is no. The centre is not utilizing the funds that are available to it. MR.

JOHNSTON: I would prefer to try and have this accounting question answered with a little more detail for the member because there is some confusion but MAC has a five-year program of $4,500,000 for the Portage Ia Prairie Food Centre; $793,000 is budgeted in 1981-82 and there was spent in '79-80,$ 761,500; spent 1980-81 to January 31, 1981, $502,000.00. The total that has been spent on the Food Centre is $1,263,000 and that was spent in equipment and the extension of the building.

Of course there are the employees that are also paid through the MAC by contract with the Manitoba Government which is with Enterprise Manitoba. MR. EVANS: Would the Minister make an observation then. In his opinion is the Food Products 495

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 Development Centre overfunded or is he satisfied that it is appropriately funded? MR. JOHNSTON: It's not overfunded, it's in the agreement, the Enterprise Manitoba agreement of $4.500,000 has been allotted to the Food Centre in Portage Ia Prairie. Now we have to estimate how much money we will be using each year. We expect that we will certainly be taking up the amount of money in the agreement but certainly if there's something that ... let me put it another way.

We will not go out and just spend the money for the sake of spending it but we estimate each year how much money we'll be using out of the Enterprise Manitoba agreement for the five-year agreement, MR. EVANS: Very specifically then, on Page 26 under the Exhibit B. 1980, just what ... I don't know whether the Minister has explained this but I don't follow him if he has. What exactly is the $312,500.00? It says refund on 1979 grants received from the Government of the Province of Manitoba and the Government of Canada - exactly what is that? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I could do it two ways.

I could have it detailed in writing for the member tonight or I could have the person who handles the finances explain it to him right now. MR. CHAIRMAN: What's the desire of the committee? The honourable gentleman. I would probably ask the Minister if he'd forward the name of the gentleman for the Hansard purpose. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Bob McPhee. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr. McPhee. MR. BOB McPHEE: Thank you. Mr. Evans, I'll attempt to try and answer this question of yours. There was an agreement with Canada .. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr.

Chairman, I know that in some other committees outside of Estimates we have had members of the staff speak to MLAs and explain points but it has never been to my knowledge a matter of form when members of staff have entered into the debate or the discussion or even spoken directly to the committee (Interjection)- well whether it's leave or not, Mr. Chairman. I suggest it would be a serious change from the rules which have prevailed for so long. It certainly does not happen in the House and as you're aware this committee is an extension of the House. I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that you not let it happen until you've had an opportunity to check with the Government House Leader and perhaps even with the Rules Committee. MR. CHAIRMAN: I believe that in answer to the Honourable Member for St. Vital. I believe that is my

interpretation also that only I think on one occasion when a Minister was sick or waylaid that maybe we made the exception. So possibly the answer to the Member from Brandon East that it maybe could be, Mr. Minister. put in writing to keep within the rules as I understand them and I need help here. The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, if I may elaborate just slightly. On the Public Accounts Committee which is a Standing Committee of the House, members of the staff have addressed the committee.

In Law Amendment Committee, which is also a Standing Committee, the same thing has happened there whether there have been questions of for example, legal counsel. Members will know that Public Utilities Committee and maybe one or two other committes of a similar nature. It has happened that members of the staff have provided information for the committee. This is a different committee entirely, Mr. Chairman. This is the Committee of Supply of the House and I would repeat that I ask you to take it under advisement before allowing a precedent to be set in this committee which we might regret in the future. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. I think my colleague is offering good advice. If however you decide that you want to proceed perhaps you could again ask for leave in which case I assume my colleague will deny leave and that will settle that particular matter, because he and I didn't hear that call - we were discussing a matter and maybe if you ask for leave again to clarify then you'd find it denied and then you could take it under advisement or just proceed in the normal fashion. MR. CHAIRMAN: I think the Chair would ...

I see the Member for Portage here about on the same point of order I presume. MR. LLOYD G. HYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, on the same point of order. If the rules of the committee will permit you to ask for leave it would be an opportunity at this time to have this matter explained in detail. MR. CHAIRMAN: It is the feeling of the Chair really that I just stop here and take it under advisement until someone advises unless the Minister or someone else has a . . . MR. JOHNSTON: Not on the point of order, Mr. Chairman.

I made this statement, we could either have it detailed fully here tonight on paper or I said it could be answered in detail right now and we will give more detail. The I.T. and C. had a program with the government, when it was changed, they advanced us moneys and when it came under the new program the moneys were moved back into I would say into the program and moved back into the Provincial Government Program. Now we will detail that all on paper tonight. It doesn't matter to me whether it's answered tonight or answered here in the committee, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Brandon East, MR.

EVANS: Mr. Chairman, that's fine. We had one or the other option and it was immaterial to myself and maybe that's the easier way to go and in a white constitutional crisis, etc. The only thing I would observe is that we have the same, you go back to 496

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 '78, you look through '78, '79 and '80 and there always seems to be balance of unexpended funds so I just wondered if this is a pattern for some years. Now if there's some technical explanation that you're going to give us, fine, but it seemed to me that there was always some unexpected or unexpended - I always thought it should be unexpended - I think it should read unexpended, I think there is a typographical error in this latest report. The previous report says unexpended so I suspect that's what it is.

Well, just putting that aside, the Food Products Centre aside for a moment, there is this other Industrial Technology Centre and the same type of thing happens here. You have balance of funds left over and it's smaller amounts but the same pattern that you see with the Industrial Technology Centre. So you may want to think about that as well. I'd like to move on then to the Enterprise Development Centres. The Brandon and the Winnipeg Enterprise Development Centres, the Minister was going to tell us something about them.

He was going to give us some figures today and we were going to discuss the utilization of those centres. MR. JOHNSTON: First of all, the member asked me for the members of the Enterprise Development Centre Board in Brandon and it is Mr. Wally Buckley, Mr. John Harrison, Mr. Allan Pearson, Jim Burgess, Jim Figol, Robert Lawson, Steve Higgens, J. Fries, and AI Loveridge. The Brandon Enterprise Development Centre has one manager, one administrative secretary and four business consultants.

The purpose of the Brandon Centre is to provide Western Manitoba's small manufacturing firms and other sectional small businesses with an improved access to a variety of business consulting and support services. The Centre is designed in a highly visible and provide accessible facilities for small business throughout the western region of the province. The Centre is located at 1451 Richmond. It was completed in April of 1980; the official opening held in May, 1980 and followed by an Industrial and Awareness Week, a display of local products.

The eight of the nine advance factory space modules are occupied with 100 percent occupancy except in the current fiscal year. Now I believe I said last night that it wasn't full, that we've got empty space there now? - (Interjection)- We have one module. Six advance factory space clients represented a capital investment opt $300,000 and 30 new jobs created with the project growth to 50 in year two. The projected first-year sales are estimated at 2 million. Three of the advance factory space clients are engaged in the production of import replacement items.

All programs have been implemented in the Centre with the staff having assisted 111 clients to date, approximately 13 of these have received RSEI grants, five have received assistance from the Manitoba Design Institute and six others have received other advance and feasibility study reports. The Centre has worked closely with Sekine Canada Limited. Employment has risen from eight employees to 80 and the company forecasts a $5.6 million sales projection for next year.

The community focus, a delivery method whereby the total resources of the Brandon EDC are applied to the rural community has now been introduced into three communities. The Centre has a new board in place, and I just gave you the board members, and allowing for more rural outlook with representation from Virden, Portage and Boissevain. The intentions of the Centre in 1982: the Centre will develop and maintain a strong rural activity and will place major consideration on fostering environmental initiatives.

Management development is also going to be a major thrust for the Centre and this will be completed by seminars and workshops. The centre will endeavour to foster and maintain a strong interface with related government and private sector agencies aiding all small businesses. The officers in Brandon work with small businesses throughout the western part of Manitoba to help them develop more business there and develop new industries and assist them in expanding. MR. EVANS: Why isn't the Brandon Centre fully utilized? You have 21,000 square feet, I'm not sure how many modules you have, five, six? Why is one empty?

MR. JOHNSTON: There are nine. As I understand it, they were all full. Eight are filled and one is being considered at the present time. MR. EVANS: I'm surprised that there is an empty - were all of them filled and someone moved out? MR. JOHNSTON: No. MR. EVANS: Is there much of a waiting list? I would imagine there is not much of a waiting list. MR. JOHNSTON: I can't tell you how many applications are on file to go in but we could certainly give you that but the board would have to make decisions on the number of who would go into the module. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Chairman, what criteria does the board or the department use on admission? I can think of a lot of fledgling entrepreneurs who might like to get this kind of assistance but maybe they don't qualify but I don't know what the qualifications are. Just how do you qualify to become a tenant of the Enterprise Development Centre? MR. JOHNSTON: There have been tenants for the Enterprise Development Centre in Brandon on the basis of, first of all, there is an application comes in. There is an investigation as to whether the company has the amount of space that it needs to do a business properly.

Also, within the assessment, has the company got a future? If the company has some assistance with a rental accommodation set up as there is in the enterprise in the modules, will this company be one that will be employing more people when they go in and with the potential of employing more people and the potential of having a business that can expand after I guess we call it an incubation time into the industrial area of Western Manitoba. Those are all examined by the board and the decision is made by the board as to who goes in. MR.

EVANS: What's the name of the eight companies or groups or individuals that are in the names of the firms, the eight firms that are in the centre now? 497

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 MR. JOHNSTON: I'll supply that to the member, Mr. Chairman. MR. EVANS: How does the Minister and his staff assure themselves that you're not bringing along an enterprise that may make things rather difficult for existing enterprises? In other words, if you have a local industry that's well established providing some product that's consumed locally, how do you assure yourselves that you're not helping someone else to get established that will take business away from some existing manufacturer?

Therefore while you're helping one party, one firm, you are hurting another firm and I think that of course is a perennial problem that you have in this department with all programs I suppose whether it be firms that are going into these centres or whether it be grants or whether it be any kind of assistance. I suppose it's a perennial problem that one faces when you offer these services. But it seemed to me that is a problem and how do you assure yourself that you're not bringing into existence some production that is going to simply make it difficult or hurt some existing business? MR.

JOHNSTON: I think that's a problem with the two areas of the Enterprise Manitoba where there is assistance, one being the rural small enterprise grants and the other being the assistance to businesses by being placed in the modules with a reasonable rent or a lower rent, a graduated rent, as to whether we are assisting somebody that will become competition to existing businesses. The boards are instructed to take a look at that very seriously.

The boards receive advice from the officers that are working out of the small business development area and we have had only, I believe, one occasion in Brandon where we have had somebody say that we had assisted somebody and it was in RSEI Program that may have been a detriment to another industry. I personally had that complaint come to me and I asked the board to be sure that this wasn't the case; they examined it and they felt there was room for two. But it is always the problem when you're making those decision.

If there is somebody requesting for assistance to go into a business that is already established business; if it's a new business or a new type :>f business in the area there is no problem but we do take that very seriously in the consideration when we examine people that make requests to us if there is that type of business in the community at that time. MR. EVANS: How long is it expected that these fledgling firms will be in the incubation centres? How long do you expect to have them as active tenants? Surely there's a point in time, a year, two years or whatever. MR. JOHNSTON: Two years. MR.

EVANS: The absolute limit is two years. MR. JOHNSTON: I wouldn't say the absolute limit. don't that think we would be opposed to extending it the same as was done in Dauphin. If we found that they had to go into a new building, leaving our building. if we felt that they needed another six months but the assessment would be made at that time. But certainly there is no intention to have people operating in the government building for a long time because that defeats the program. We may as well go out and buy a bunch of buildings and rent cheap space if we were going to do that. MR.

EVANS: What about the Winnipeg Centre? How many spaces does it have and how many of those are occupied? MR. JOHNSTON: There's 11 in Winnipeg and 9 have been occupied to this date. MR. EVANS: Could the Minister advise why it's not fully occupied? MR. JOHNSTON: I can only answer that by saying that the board hasn't felt that there's been applications that warrant going in there. MR. EVANS: I find this very strange. I hope it's not a sign of a weakness in our own economy, that is, we've seen other signs of weakness.

But is this yet another sign where you have presumably a very generous program available to would-be entrepreneurs, new businessmen and their getting subsidized space, they are getting free technical services and 11 spaces in a city the size of Winnipeg is certainly not a large number and I find it very disturbing to find that only 9 of the 11 spaces are filled up. It would indicate that perhaps there are not that many people out there who are anxious or see much opportunity in additional manufacturing in the province. Maybe they are discouraged by what they see to be a lack of demand for their products.

I don't know, I'm just asking. Is this another sign of some weakness? Because I for one find it disturbing that the Centre has been opened, I'm not sure how long, the Winnipeg Centre was opened in February 1980 so it's been open a year, it's got the staff, a full staff is in place, everybody's ... I gather from the report there's nine business consultants and a manager plus administrative support staff. It's a very nice location, brand new facilities. I'm surprised that for whatever reason we've only got 9 out of 11 occupied. MR.

JOHNSTON: It was opened in March and there are applications on file and being considered at the present time for the balance of the space. I might say that the board's instructions are on the basis of not telling them what to do, they make recommendations but to examine them all very carefully and that's what they have been doing.

There's no doubt in my mind that we could have probably filled it in a month but the examination of the people making applications and taking into consideration some of the things that the member has brought up regarding competition, etc., and taking into consideration the sectors that the government has laid down as sectors that we want to see advanced in the Province of Manitoba - that's the reason why they're very careful as to who uses the modules. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Rouge. If the Member for Brandon was through he ... The Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. WESTBURY: Mr.

Chair, I wanted to thank the Minister at long last for answering my query of June 498

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 23 relative to an application under the name of the Notre Dame Machine Shop Enterprise Manitoba. I sent a follow-up letter on October 14 and finally had a letter last week or the week before dated January 22 answering my questions of last June, Mr. Chair. I don't suppose the file is there but this continues to concern me. One of the statements made in the letter was that the Village of Notre Dame de Lourdes already had a machining capability which did not receive government assistance and was operating considerably below capacity. But one of the points that was made, Mr.

Chair, was that there were services being offered by Mr. Briscese that were not being offered within many miles of the Village of Notre Dame de Lourdes and the reasons keep changing. The Minister in the House last year said that this was principally a repair function which is not eligible but at the time we found out that there were in fact a number of repair operations that are being funded under Enterprise Manitoba and we couldn't see the justification for refusing one when others have been accepted.

There was also a letter and I believe that this was attached to the application or came in subsequently from the Village of Notre Dame de Lourdes endorsing this new business in that village, in Mr. Briscese's village. I've never met Mr. Briscese. This was brought to me by other people who are supportive of his application. What I'm trying to say is I don't want him to be considered to be a Liberal and therefore to be punished. I would hope and expect and I know the department wouldn't act in that way.

I would hope that the Minister would give the same consideration to these questions as he would if they were brought forward to him by a member of his own group. I just don't understand how the inconsistency of repair shops sometimes qualifying, in this case when it's a component only not qualifying and why he would say that the Village had a capability when in fact the Village has endorsed Mr. Briscese as an applicant. I don't know if the Minister remembers the case or if again he would have to come forward with some of the answers at a later time but I find this very bewildering. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(e).

The Honourable Minister. MR. JOHNSTON: I have had the case examined three times by the board. That was one of the reasons why the letter was not answered as soon as you may have wanted it to be. I am satisfied that the board has looked at this application very very closely. One of the things that has to be taken into consideration is that can the new business even with the expansion sustain itself from the point of view that, is there a market large enough there to handle it and for him to supply?

The board has examined that application as I said three times and I believe they are very justified in recommending that that will not be approved. We don't approve them all. As I said, the boards take a very close look at all the applications. In this particular one we have examined it very thoroughly because of your letters and your questions and we do not feel that this is a grant that we want to make.

The fact that the town has said that they support the application, that is one consideration that the board would take into their deliberations but we have had some applications where you have had people say go around town and visit different people within town and say if we had this would you buy from me? And the answer is usually yes. That does not mean that we feel that business will be a successful business. MR.

EVANS: Talking about these rural small enterprise incentive grants, what amount is in the Budget and I know it's in this item, just how much is in the Budget for this fiscal year that we're now considering in these Estimates for the year ending March 31, 1982? MR. JOHNSTON: $1,245,000.00. MR. EVANS: $1,245,000.00. Why is it expected to offer a lower level of assistance through this program than you had in the previous years? MR. JOHNSTON: One of the reasons for the lower level of the program is we are starting to run out of money.

There is only $5 million in the program and the program was taken up very extensively in the first part of the program. We've estimated that we'll do about 65 this year and the estimate for 65 is $1 ,245,000.00. MR. EVANS: Is it possible for a firm to apply for a second grant or a second round of assistance after a period of time? MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, if they haven't received the total amount of the grant, they can make application to the board for a second grant. Those are examined extensively for a very good reason. We have to be very sure that the second grant is needed to expand the business.

We have to examine very carefully that the business is not just needing the second grant to pull them out of financial problems. The second grant has to be there on the basis of expansion and for future business so they are examined very carefully. The other reason is we don't like to give somebody money twice when there are others waiting for their first application. MR.

EVANS: I take it then that the maximum amount under this program per firm is $30,000 and that, as I understand the Minister if, let us say, they qualified for $20,000 one year, it's possible that they could apply all or part of a $10,000 balance in a second year. But in no way would the department or the Minister provide more than $30,000 in maximum at anytime. MR. JOHNSTON: That's correct. I think I'm right in saying that we've had two or three - I think it's three from my memory of approving them but we haven't had too many out of the number of loans that we've made. As I said, they are examined very carefully.

MR. EVANS: The Minister says that they've allocated a lower amount this year because he may be running out of money or words to that effect and we have $1,245,000 available. Is there any indication what could be spent? I'm not suggesting that you have no limit, I'm not by any means, and one-and-a quarter million is a fair amount of money but if you 499

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 had no Budget constraints under the Industrial Development Agreement signed with Canada through DREE. what could be taken up? In other words, what is the potential out there? Presumably these moneys do assist in expansion of establishments that do assist in providing some jobs albeit on a very modest scale. but nevertheless. and what I'd like to know is are we meeting half of the potential, 80 percent of the potential. or all of it, or just where does that stand? What are we going to accomplish with one and-a-quarter million dollars? MR. JOHNSTON: 65 grants.

That's what we've budgeted for this year and we feel it will handle 65 grants. MR. EVANS: Let me put it another way then, Mr. Chairman. How many companies will go unsatisfied? In other words. presumably it's on a first-come, first serve basis. providing they fulfill all the criteria - right? They fulfill all the criteria, first come, first serve. 65 grants. How many would be left unsatisfied, another 65. 50, 30, 10? MR. JOHNSTON: I will try to get that figure for him. He's asking for the figure of the number of applications versus the number of grants. I'll try to get that figure. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hour of 4:30 having arrived, I move that committee rise for Private Members' Hour. Committee rise. SUPPL V - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This committee will come to order. I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 10 of the Main Estimates, Department of Agriculture, Resolution No. 10, Clause 4. Item is (

f) Agricultural Training Branch. ( 1) Salaries pass. Order please. The Honourable Minister. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman. last night there was a question from the Member for St. George on the issue of seed analysis and I referred to a letter that I said was available. I understand that he had already received a copy of a letter indicating the quality of the feed. so he has the letter that I referred to. However. I do have a little more information on the quality of the feed. The canary seed straw.

I guess I would refer to it as. has a protein of something like 10 percent as opposed to rapeseed at 17 percent; fibre. 29 percent of the canary seed and 15 percent on the rapeseed. TON. canary seed, 54 percent; and rapeseed at 65. So the analysis of the feeds are demonstrated that the type of feed that was referred to by the department as being of higher quality is in fact that. Those by the way are the immature samples taken on canary seed straw. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister indicate when he indicates the samples on canary seed straw versus rapeseed, whether that sample was in effect straw after harvesting or whether that was actual hay that was cut and sampled and tested? I want to be very specific because he makes mention that it's straw and we know that canary seed has a long maturity. At the time of the Greenfeed Program the canary seed was, long before maturity, was cut strictly for hay purposes and was not even near the mature state. MR. DOWNEY: Those were the immature figures that I gave him, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: Immature] Mr.

Chairman, I don't know whether they were amateur or immature. I'm assuming from the Minister and he can correct me if I'm wrong that these samples were taken this year and analysed of this year's quality of hay. Is that what he's indicating? MR. DOWNEY: I wouldn't know specifically, Mr. Chairman, if that were the case. I'm sure Morrison's book on "Feed and Feeding" would be where some of the information came from. It could also be from some actual practical samples that were taken at the lab but I don't have that information at this point.

I think it's a situation which I referred to earlier that we could review as a department on the specifics of it and get on with the job of debating the departmental Estimates. If it's a unique case, then we can further review it. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, in the past we've heard about these reviews that the Minister of Agriculture promised us. Does that simply mean that, fine, so we don't debate it, let's take it off the table and leave it? To review it, what does that mean?

Can the Minister explain what he means by his review; is to let's forget about today and hoping that people will go away and forget about the program and not do anything about it? What is he meaning by review? Can he give me some indication what he intends to do with this? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, there is by no means trying to sidestep the issue. It's just a matter of talking of the difference between the quality of canary seed straw or rapeseed that has been put up for feed purposes. That is the issue.

I've indicated the difference; there has been a decision made; if he further wants to debate whether or not canary straw should be used as a Greenfeed Program or whether it should not be and whether it should be used as opposed to rapeseed, then we can debate it, but let's tell the public what we're debating and make it very clear. I think that we can look at it as a department. If the decision were to suggest that there was an extreme hardship case in this particular example, then consideration would be given.

But it's being administered on the basis of consistent decision-making process within the department and at this point I have no intent of changing it. MR. URUSKI: That's better, Mr. Chairman, at least now we know where the Minister stands on this issue. The point that I raised was not in reference to canary seed straw; it was canary seed hay and there is quite a difference, I think the Minister well knows, in terms of the two specimens that he spoke about. Mr. Chairman, the Minister now indicates unless there is a hardship there is no intent to reveal the 500

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 program. Would the Minister be inclined to have a second look to review his position if tests showed that the quality of the product is very close to the rapeseed and may be above quality of other field crops which may have been totally weed infested with lesser protein content than the canary seed straw? Would that have made a difference to the Minister whether that was included under the program or not? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Chairman, as I indicated, that it was immature straw that I had given him the protein differences on and the difference in mature canary seed straw is 3 to 4 percent as opposed to the rapeseed at 17 percent. I think probably what the member is telling me, that if he can demonstrate or the individual can demonstrate extreme hardship and other evidence, that canary seed grass or straw is being discriminated against for a justifiable reason further than what I have, then I'm prepared to look at it. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, I don't intend to point to a case of hardship.

What I am intending to ask the Minister and try to elicit some advice on him is on the point of equity, because other crops and other grains whether they have been crops that were written off and were weed infested in terms of the farmers decision of not spraying because of the uncertainty and the growth pattern that occurred last spring, many of those crops went under the Greenfeed Program.

Their quality in terms of protein would have been less than in terms of the hay quality of canary seed and from the point of view of equity I fail to see and fail to understand the reasoning within the department and the Minister's reasoning that this crop would have been left out from the program. Were there many other crops that were left out of the program that were not considered, Mr. Chairman? Maybe that will shed some light, that maybe I am barking up the wrong tree, that there were other crops that were left out, that were applied for and they were not . . . what criteria did the department use?

Maybe the Minister has a criteria that was establised and that can be readily given to me and the issue can be dispensed with. MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I acknowledge the next speaker, I'm a little bit confused. We are on item 5.(

f) which is Agricultural Training Branch and I know that there was some promise of one party supplying information to another at this sitting and I think that that information was supplied but I don't think that extended debate should be allowed on this particular item. The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: On the point that you raise, Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated he would provide technical background data. He did provide information of some letter that I received several weeks ago on corresponding with him over the several months with respect to a constituent who had written me but, Mr.

Chairman, he did not provide the information and the data and I did raise the points and that dealt with ... we're still in the same area of debate, the Agricultural Production Division and although we did pass

Section (

d) Soils and Crops where we had the debate on this very point, if you wish us to stop debate at the end of this resolution we can raise it then. I really don't see the difference in terms of timing whether now or later. MR. CHAIRMAN: Well it was for my own convenience rather than for the convenience of the members because after we had passed the debate on this item I wouldn't have known where to go, whether to go to the next item which was (

e) which is already passed or go back to (

f) which is the item under discussion. So I would suggest to the honourable members that if there was any additional information or discussion or debate on this particular item that before the item is completely passed, Resolution 10 is completely passed, might be the time as a follow-up on the whole item. (

f) Agricultural Training Branch

(1) Salaries. The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Yes. Mr. Chairman, last night as we began I raised questions with respect to the Agricultural Mechanics Course in Brandon. The Minister indicated that that area of expenditure was in this

section and it was my understanding it would have been under the Technical Services but he indicated it would be in this

section and he was to provide some details on the course to us. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, is the member referring to the proposed Farm Machine Mechanics Course proposed for the new extension to the Brandon Assiniboine Community College which my colleague, the Minister of Education, along with the Member for Brandon West worked very hard to obtain for the City of Brandon, and of course we can't forget about the Member for Souris-Killarney who is also a major

part in the decision to help. Give that facility to Western Manitoba, something that they've been long waiting for and pleased to be able to have supported that addition to the Assiniboine Community College in Brandon. I, Mr. Chairman, would like to respond to the member that there is a proposed Farm Machinery Course to be put into the facility in Brandon. I think the initial projections were to have started that particular course this coming fall but I would have to get an exact update. MR. URUSKI: Last fall? MR. DOWNEY: No, in the 1981 fall. No I would have to debate the member.

I think that any proposal to start a mechanics course couldn't be before the building was built because they didn't have the facility and I think that it was talked about in last year's estimates that 1981, the fall, if the facility was ready, would be in fact ready. I may also say that there are some other farm machine courses taking place throughout the province - 8 farm machine courses with 88 participants and these are held throughout the different regions of Manitoba. MR. URUSKI: What kind are they? MR. DOWNEY: They are farm mechanics courses, Mr. Chairman.

I think basically just for information on the Farm Mechanics Course, it's a program that the 501

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 department are supporting and I'm sure that it will add to the supporting of the farm community through providing of people to work on the highly modern and technical equipment that's available to them today. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman. I thought when I raised the point that there was no need for any further questions or comments in this area.

I only wish to point out after hearing the great announcements from the Minister of Agriculture that he has already within his own plans and budget within his own government. he's already going to be one year behind time from not only the prognosis but the commitment, and I read from his own Annual Report: The target date for commencement of the course is September 1, 1980.

In his own Annual Report which was a year ago. nd there is yet nothing happening in terms of his commitment to the agricultural machine industry and farmers in general in Manitoba, notwithstanding the comments that were already made by the Member for Rock Lake in his great chagrin about the availability of parts and the availability of service to farmers. Th1s course, the Minister should remember was in the process of being developed some five or six years ago I believe. It was in the works within government.

It seems that the Minister and his party since they got into office over the last three-and-a half years have kind of slipped by them and certainly this would have been an added base of support to the farmers in the farm machinery industry in the Province of Manitoba, which the Member for Rock Lake in his questions in the last two days indicated that members on this side were so upset about the Saskatchewan legislation. Mr. Chairman.

I think in terms of support to the Saskatchewan farmers that the input of their farm machinery legislation, which I've not had an opportunity as yet to check. but I intend to look at it further. Mr. Chairman, this course would certainly have been a benefit. It was intended to be proceeded with by the government but somehow it slipped by the boards in terms of this government's commitments. So, Mr.

Chairman, I guess we'll have to wait one more year in terms of their proposals or probably we will have an announcement, although it's three or four years late, in terms of an election campaign in the City of Brandon indicating that this year. this October, we will have a farm machinery course which certainly will add to our policy of strengthening rural Manitoba and rural life. Mr. Chairman, the backbenchers themselves should question him as to why it hasn't been put in in the tall of 1980. It's in his Annual Report, Mr.

Chairman, the commitment it was to be set for September, 1980, and yet, he indicates, look, really, that wasn't our commitment at all. He wanted to take his name off the publishing of statistics; he now wants to take his name off the wording in his own Annual Report. Mr. Chairman. I mean is he going to accept some responsibility or isn't he in terms of what is happening in rural Manitoba.? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I am quite prepared to take full responsibility for what happens in the Department of Agriculture as well as work with the agricultural community to strengthen it.

I would have to indicate at this time that the development of the farm machine mechanics course was proposed for the new facility that's being built in Brandon. It may have started in a preliminary way last fall if they could accommodate it.

Those specific details I will be able to obtain from the member but I would think in a more general way, as far as the costing and the whole operation of that program, that the administration of it takes place within the Department of Education and we can further get that information during the Estimates of that department, but I will provide specific information for him if in fact there was a start in the program last fall. But I am quite prepared to stand here fully responsible, Mr. Chairman, in every way for the programs that are taking place within my department. MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Chairman, I am pleased that the Minister is prepared to stand behind his own statements. Is the Minister denying that the statement indicating that target date for commencement of the course is September 1, 1980 and said "the Board continued to work with committees from the industry of Manitoba's community colleges to make available a two year farm machinery mechanics course?" Is he not standing behind that statement, Mr. Chairman? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, that report that he is referring to comes from the Farm Machinery Board who were I'm sure targeting at that particular date.

The actual starting of the course, I am going to check out to see just at what particular time that it will in fact take place. But what he is referring to in the Annual Report is a report directly from the Farm Machinery Board. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, absolutely. Under whose jurisdiction does the Farm Machinery Board lie; is it not under the Minister of Agriculture who oversees the budget and the spending of the Farm Machinery Board and in turn sets policy and goals through his department?

One of the goals to promote a better rural economy and to be able to provide services to farmers would be through this course, and surely he's not backing away from that now, is he, Mr. Chairman? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, it is my understanding that when a government appoints a board they have some confidence in the capabilities of those individuals who are appointed on those boards. It is an appointed board. If he's telling me, Mr.

Chairman, that when he was the Minister of the Crown as well as his colleagues that he directed the Board of Directors what he wanted done, no wonder we had such a state society under the NDP government because they were believing or listening to what the directive was from the Minister of the day. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman, it seems that the best defence that the Minister has is to go on some kind of a highfalutin offence. Mr.

Chairman, if the Minister is going to have some confidence in the workings of his board, surely he will provide the backup in terms of monetary resources and expertise that the board requires in order to carry out its mandate. If he's not prepared to give them that mandate, then he may as well get rid of them because certainly even though 502

Tuesday, 10 February, 1981 they may have all the desires in the world to do good things, and he may have all the confidence in the world in them about their doing good things, unless he provides the backup and the resourses it doesn't mean a tinker's damn, Mr. Chairman. They can talk about it all they want, and it appears that he's prepared to allow that to happen, is for Boards to talk all they want and not have any action. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether the Member for St.

George was making comments to invite me to rise this afternoon, but the Farm Machinery Board, I want to support the Minister of Agriculture. Because on a number of occasions where a farmer has had a problem with dealing with a particular farm machine company, whether it be getting parts or whatever, and anytime that I have ever approached the Farm Machinery Board to look into the problem that farmer has had, it has met with good success. I want to say to the Minister of Agriculture, and to the members opposite particularly, where the Farm Machinery Board has worked very well in recent years. But you know, Mr.

Chairman, the M

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-5-15a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 5th hansardpdf 15a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	4fc65638fe300bfa89d550e8c6b20b81527114bf

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