LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 24 June, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Ho n. J. Welding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Pres enting Reports by Standing and Special Comm ittees . . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . NON-POLITIC AL STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a short non­ political statement. MR . SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, it gives me pleasure today to inform the House that today has been set aside as Seniors Day at the Legislature. This is the second straight year that we have declared a special day in honour of seniors. We do so because of the contribution that seniors have made, and continue to make to the Province of Manitoba, which is indeed imme asurable. Their wisdom, their hard work, their dedication to building a better world for all deserves to be re cogni zed. Their continue d wisdom and contribution to society is a source of pride to all Manitobans. lt is in recognition, Mr.

Speaker, of their hard work and commitment for a better provincial community and world that we have made this a special day set aside for them. And judging by the excellent turnout, both last year and again today, we can all once again look forward to an enjoyable and pleasurable afternoon. Mr. Speaker, it is only fitting that the doors of the Legislative Building are wide open to our senior citizens so that we, on behalf of all Manitobans, pay special tribute to them.

I am sure that all members of the Legislature will join with me today in welcoming all the senior citizens present to the Legislature today, and I am sure that we all look forward to meeting you later. MR. SPEAK ER: The Hono urable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am pleased to join with the Premier and to rise on behalf of the memb ers of the opposition in this Legislature to salute our seniors and Seniors Day today, and to welcome so many of them to the Legislature. We hope that they will enjoy their visit and that they will return regularly and often.

As we begin Seniors Week in Manitoba, I would hope, as well, that all of us would be commi tted to ensure that every week is Seniors Week in Manitoba and that we conduct ourselves in that regard at all tim es. The Manitoba which we are privileged to share in today is a vibrant and a strong community that has an excellent quality of life because of the efforts of our senior citizens and the foundation that they have laid.

Manitoba did not progress and grow as a result merely of the actions of governments, or the initiative of governments, but of the efforts that have been put forth by generations of our people who committed their time, their talent and their sweat of their brows to build a better future for themselves, for their children, their grandchildr en and of all future generations.

So in acknowledging and recognizing the efforts of our seniors, let us continue as well to pledge, to carry on the work that they have begun and to ensure that we are always mindful and committed of their needs and their concerns as we carry out our duties and responsibilities as elected representatives in this House in Manitoba. Thank you very much. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mi nes. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I thought we were still on Minis terial Statements and Tabling of Reports. MINISTE RI AL STATEMENTS AN D TABLING OF REPORTS MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to table a news release for Manitoba Hydro regard ing their award on tendering for th e information of members. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANST ET T: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. Pending the House dealing with the motion beginning on Page 5 of the Order Paper I would ask you, Sir, to only call Bills No. 65, 79 and 80 for first reading today. HON. V.

SCHROEDER introduced, by leave, Bill No. 65, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act (19 85); Loi de 1985 modifiant la legislation relative a la fiscalite. (R ec ommende d by Her Honour the Lieutenant­ Governor). HON. J. PLOHMAN introduced, by leave, Bill No. 79, The Hig hway Traffic Act; Le Code de la route. (R ecommende d by Her Honour the Lieutenant­ Governor). 3230

Monday, 24 Ju ne, 1985 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside on a point of order . MR. H. ENNS: On a point of order , Mr.

Speaker , I simply want to in dicate to the government, and particularly the Government House Leader, whom I welcome back in his bench, that it would certa inly be the intention of the opposition to provide a speedy passage of a bill like the one that is before us, Bill No. 79, which is the translated form of the The Highway Traffic Act and, indeed, provide first, second and third read ing in one sitting to expedite the Business of the House. it's my understanding that the bill is not available to the Chamber in printed form at this present moment, but I want to be on record as having indicated that, as a result of my conversation with members opposite, that was the intention of the opposition with both Bill No. 79, The Highway Traffic Act and The

Summary Convictions Act, we were prepared to pass all thr ee read ings today. HON. R. PENNER introduced, by leave, Bill No. 80, The

Summary Convictions Act;

Loi sur les poursuites

sommaires. SPEAKER 'S PROCEDURE STATEMENT MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Quest ions, I have a procedural statement for the House. On June 13th. the Supreme Court of Canada issued a statement respecting

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act. In light of that statement, it would be prudent for the Assembly to introduce such procedural changes as could rea sonably be expected to withstand the scrutiny of a court of law. Research is currently under way in order to assess further recommended procedu ral changes, which will be announced in due course. Those reco mmendations which can be made at this time are being made by means of this statement so that they will be in the permanent record of the House. lt is recommended that: 1. Notices of bill appearing on the Order Paper be printed in English and French. 2.

Motions for all stages of enactment of bills be printed in English and French. 3. The Mover of a bill read either text, preserv ing the freedom of choice stipula ted in

Section 23. 4. The Speaker or Chairman put the question in eithe r lang uage, which qu est ion, if requested, be read from the table in the other language. The above procedures were in effect in the Manitoba Assembly prior to 1890. 5. For amendments at committee stage, the House of Commons procedure be followed. whereby amendments in one language are accepted, with the translation being made at the earliest opportunity, thus avoiding delays in the committee's work.

The Legislative Assembly Management Commission has determined that English and French versions of Votes and Proceed ings be printed and that these be bound at the end of each Session to produce separate volumes of the Journals. This is the present Quebec practice and the Manitoba practice prior to 18 90. Until such time that the practical delays in implementing this production can be overcome, 6. the motions be printed in the Votes and Proceed ings in English and French . These procedural changes have been put into effect as from today and will continue in effect until the House decides otherwise.

I am confident that these procedural changes can be imp lemented satisfactorily and recommend them to the House. ORAL QUESTIONS Expense accounts - release of information MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposit ion. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Premier. Given that a number of his Min isters have refused to release information on the expense accounts of senior civil servants and heads of Crown corporations, will he be requiring them to release this information for the public? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to take that question under review. Certainly insofar as The Freedom of Information Act is concerned, it's my view that information, at the time of the proclamation of the act, should be made available. Any other questions pertai ning to the area that the member is making reference to, I would like to take that under review as to the circumstances. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, will The Freedom of Information bill, as it is presently before the House, require that expense accounts of senior civil servants and heads of Crown corporations be made available to the public? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I point out that the bill is order ed for debate and will be before committee tomorrow. However, answering the question, at least on an interim basis, it is my advice that is likely the case. If the act is not clear enough in that respect, and we'll have further advice after committee stage before we get to the claus e-by-clause, th en the appropriate amendments that are required can be brought in.

I should simply point out that the only reason for some delay in doing it now is, not that the bill itself doesn't deal with it, but we have an interdepartmental committee that's been working really for a couple of years to enable ready access to such information to bP. made within the time limit stipulated in the bill, and we are approaching that time with reaso nable dispatch. 3231

Monday, 24 June, 1985 Statutes of Man itoba - procedure for translation MR. SPEA KER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: I'm wondering if the Attorney-General on a further subject could indicate whether or not he, or his department, had submi tted to the Federal Secretary of State's department a review, in summar y, of the procedure of translation of our statutes into French; a summar y as to where we were, and a program as to how quickly we could translate the remai ning statutes that were intended to be translated prior to the Supreme Court decision. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: Since approxim ately 19 80, early 19 81, there has been a fairly continual working relationship between officials in the Government of Manitoba, at the time when the members opposite were government and continuing, and officials in the Department of the Secretary of State with respect to facilitating the responsibilities that we have with respect to the translation of statutes and other material, exchange of resources and so on. lt hasn't got beyond that in terms of any formal requesting made at this stage and when that stage is reached, as likely it will, the First Minister will be making an announcement in the House.

MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I'm given to understand, and the Attorney-General could correct me if I'm wrong, but last fall the Attorney-General submi tted to the Secretary of State a

summary and a proposal as to how long it might take for certain translation to be accomplished. I'm wondering if that information could be made available to the House. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that as notice. I'm not sure that the premise is correct in terms of the kind of information which it is suggested was submitted; it may well be, and certainly whatever was submitted at that time.

Well, I'll take it as notice and, again, in du e cou rse, if tha t kind of information, which is essentially in any event the information I supplied this House in answer to a question from the Member for Elmwood in mid-April, but that type of information updated is in Hansard. But if there is any additional information, it will be tabled. MR. G. FILMON : My unders tanding furthe r, Mr . Speaker, and I could be wrong, I wonder if the Attorney­ General could indicate whether or not his deputy is current ly, or about to be, appearing at the Supreme Court for certain information.

If so, I wonder if the Attorney-General could give us an indication as to what information is being sought. HON . R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, just very briefly, there has been no precedent as to how one even begins coming to the Supreme Court, as in the fullness of time, that we must, with respect to the issue that still remains, namely, the length of time that we will be requesting from the Supr eme Court in order to complete the job which has to be done, following from the judgment of the Supreme Court.

So that there are some prelimary talks with the Registrar of the Supreme Court in terms of whether or not the first application, just to set a date, is made to the registrar or to a judge of the court. lt is at that level, just at the moment it is very exploratory in terms of some understanding of the procedure, but it has not gone any further than that. Vicon - location of assembly plant MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Mi nister of Indus try and Technology.

I wonder if the Minister can now inform the House as to whether Vicon Corporation, that the government has supplied up to $ 1 million to, have made a decision as to where they will locate in the province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTY RA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. No, I can't inform the member as to whether or not Vicon has made a decision. I know they have been looking at a number of locations thr oughout Manitoba, but the last word I had they had not made a decision on a specific location. MR. F. JOHNSTON : Mr.

Speaker, the Minister was kind enough to answer questions in commit tee on the subject, and I would follow up with basically the same question to him now. Has the government, since that time, been involved with Vicon regard ing any discussions as to where they may locate; and has the government, in the past week or so, been involved in suggesting where Vicon should locate? HON. E. KOSTY RA: In terms of the last question, I can't respond in terms of the last week. I know that staff have been making them aware of di fferent locations throughout the province where they might locate.

I know they looked at one specific location that we referenced to them. However, in the interim, that location, or that specific building, was taken by someone else in the Community of Morris in southern Manitoba. But I am not aware of any other specific locations or any action within the last week with respect to the department. I know that on an ongoing basis they have been providing them with information on available sites in Winnipeg and outside of Winnipeg. Safety procedure re students MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Thank you.

I direct a question to the Acting Minister of Education and ask the Minister, in regard to the tragic death of a 17 -year old Miles Macdonell Collegiate student, will the government be undertaking a full and complete investigation of safety procedures and the program itself, whereby junior and senior high students are working in industrial settings outside our schools? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister for the Environment. 3232

Monday, 24 June, 1985 HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Although the question was asked of the Acting Min ister, the Minister not being here, the question does have implications for Work place Safety and Health and, on those grounds, perhaps I can answer to the member that, indeed, we would like to see every avenue pursued so that from this matter we can learn as to the causes and re sponsibilities in regard to this matter. Indeed, that is what is going to be happening so that we can determine what has happened and make sure that kind of tragic incident does not happen again. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, in that investigat ion, in terms of the educational ramifications and the specific tragedy that has occurred, would the Minister also ensure that empl oyers are not using minors as a source of cheap labour, and that no normal safety or work place procedures are being violated in that program? HON. G. LECUYER: Indeed, Mr.

Speaker, we would want and hope that the investigation will give us the answers to that type of question, as well. lt follows, as wel l, I believe that there is indeed merit for the program tha t we have put in place in regard to the implementation of workplace safety and health joint committees, indeed, including in the school work place. lt does point to the need - I'm not, for one, going to say that it would have avoided this particular accident, a tragic accident - but there is indeed need in the school set up that students be made aware of proper workpla ce safety procedures, and th at is being implemented and has been since the adoption of the act in 19 83.

But it does indeed indicate there is need to prepare our young people to work in industrial and other types of settings once they com plete their education. Here we have an incident where students have not completed their education, are emplo yed over a summer period, and face a tragic end. I do belie ve it is high time that all of these types of incidents stop in our society. Cream shippers - emergency plans for surpl uses MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As a member of a rural and farm constituency, I, and many other members on this side at least, are getting a growing number of calls from our constituents about the plight of the dairy farmer, the cream shippers who are having to dump their cream on the ground, Mr. Speaker, or feed it to alternative livesto ck. Mr. Speaker, today is June 24th, they will not be able to ship their cream to the dairies until August the 1st. Is this Min ister, is this government doing anything - (Interject ion) - I'm directing it to the Acting Minister of Agriculture. Oh , I see the Minister of Agriculture. Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture so seldom graces this Chamber that I was momentarily . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I withdraw that. MR. SPEAKER: If the honourable member has a question, would he please place it. MR. H. ENNS: I'm pleased that the Mi nister of Agriculture is here to answer that question but my question is very serious.

We have over a month before the dairies will be able to take the cream, is there not any emergency plan being consid ered by the government whereby this nutritious food, cream, can be used; we have many organizations that provide food services, can't something be done? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nis ter of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I thank the honourable memb er.

I'm pleased that he missed me, I want to tell him that Friday I was down with the flu and unfortunately, today, the fan belts that go around Fraserwood (sic) and I was a bit late in terms of coming into the city - (Interjection) - The car's fan belt. Mr.

Speake r, the question of cream quotas, certainly in the last several years, has been one that has plagued the Milk Producers Marketing Board who have the clear authority in terms of managing the cream pool. it's primarily because they have not seen fit to sit down with producers over the last number of years and to plan out the production of cream in the province that this dilemma has come upon us. In 1981, Mr. Speaker, when those gentlemen were in government, we reached the total production in Manitoba, the lowest at any time in the last decade in terms of production.

Only in the last several years has production increased to the point in which the cream block has been filled. lt is a problem in terms of ove rprodu ction. The board has allo wed th e interchanging of quota within the block, not within producers but within the block, to allow producers to continue shipping. That's one that they will have assess from month to month. it's our hope that they will be able to meet that growing demand and production and handle any excess production there is from within the block.

But should they not be able to do that, Sir, the rest of the industry will be faced, due to the Canadian agre ement, with overpro duction pen alties. Most producers who overproduce in a supply-mana ged commodity will be faced with over production penalties. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the difficulty that the system is in and I understand the system, but we have a problem. My question to the Minister is: has the department any idea how many gallons of cream that will be wasted or not used for consumption from now to August 1st? Do we have some idea how large the problem is? HON. B. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I hope that members opposite will make sure that they use a lot of cream in their coffee, drink a lot of milk. Mr. Speaker, we hope that in terms of the working of the block, the cream block, that the Milk Marketing Board will be able to allow all farmers who have not filled their quota, who are in the overprod uction base, to be able to fill it. Mr. Speaker, it is totally within the operations of the Milk Marketing Board that this occurs. I know the honourable members, over the last number o! months, have attempted to raise this issue of the operat ion of su pp ly-ma .,aged commodit ies as 3233

Monday, 24 June, 1985 something of a failure by members on this side. Mr. Speaker, one can't have it both ways in terms of the production of agricultur al products. You either have a guarantee of income and then make sure that you don't oversupply the market. With that guarantee, then the system will work, Mr. Speaker, but you can't have a guarantee and then produce more than the market can hold, because then the whole system falls apart. If that's what the honourable members are advocating, that the system break down, Mr. Speaker, we don't stand for that kind of support for the agricultur al industry.

We want farmers with decent incomes, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. May I remind all visitors that flash cameras are not permitted in the gallery. The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, you know, the Minister can't have it both ways either. He can't, on the one hand, chastise us for having low production years, and him having increase production. Wha t's the point in increasing production if we're dumping the cream on the ground or following suggestions, as made from the other side, to turn it into wine, or to fill our bathtubs with it, as was made. Mr.

Speaker, we have a problem on our hands and I'm hoping that the cream that's being used at this rece ption is a cream and not a vegetable product. I'll check it later on when I'm having coffee with the seniors. But surely, Mr. Speaker, I happen to know from a colleague's recent trip to Ethiopia that we see Saskatc hewan and Alberta prominently displayed with their food products, can't we do some thing with thousands of gallons of milk . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. If the honourable member has a question seeking information, would he place it?

Oral Quest ions. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: The honourable member raised what we're going to do with the millions of gallons of cream. Mr. Speaker, up to this point, we have attempted to make sure that the Milk Ma rketing Board lived up to their managing of the supply management system, Mr. Speaker, and that's what we were attempt ing to do by the very process. But, Mr. Speaker , the honourable mem ber, while he wants to grandstand and try - (Interjection) - Mr. Speaker, we understand it's a serious problem.

Every time that there is an overproduction of any product under a suppy-managed commod ity, it is a problem. You can't run a system by allowing an open flow into the quota system as much as producers want to produce. That's going to destroy the system, Mr. Speaker , and that's the kind of operation and the kind of argument that we've had from the Mem ber for Emerson, and the Member for Arthur , and now the Member for Lakeside, Mr. Speaker . What they would like to do is have producers agitated so much with the system that it will break down and then, Mr. Speaker SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

Grasshopper infestation - proposed control program MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNE Y: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This follows on a question on Friday by my colleague from Turtle Mountain to the Mini ster of Hi gh ways and Transportation. I would ask the Minister of Agriculture if he would inform the Minister of Highw ays and Transportation that we do have a massive grasshopper infestation in southwestern and southern Manitoba, so that he can provide a program to spray the public highways and roadways, Mr. Speaker.

Will the Minister of Agriculture inform the Minister of High ways so he's aware of what is going on in the province? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Agriculture. HON . B. URUSK I: Mr . Speaker , this government recogni zes that the problem with grassho ppers is urgent, yes. MR. J. DOWNEY: Your Minister of Hig hways didn't, Mr. Speaker. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I need not inform any of my colleagues of the severity of the problem, we're all very well aware of it. That kind of a question, Mr.

Speaker, does not deserve an answer at all because I want to give the answer to the honourable member that our program that we began as late as last fall, in consultation with the municipalities to set up the co­ ordi nating mechanism to fight the grasshopper infestation that we foresaw this coming year, the plan has been put into place with the municipalities and the fina ncial support th at we provide municip alities, providing for the costs of the chemicals that they spray on public land, Crown lands and roadways. That's the kind of support we are providing in this province, and will continue to do so. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I would again ask the Minister of Agriculture if he will please answer and then inform his colleague, the Minister of Highw ays and Transportation, who said on Friday morning that, if there was a massive problem, they would consider Introducing a program. Mr. Speaker, I again ask the Minister of Agriculture, will he promote and encourage the Minister of Highways to spray grasshoppers on public roadways which is their responsibility? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Hig hways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Speaker, we have outlined in this House on several occasions the policy in place that the Department of Agriculture pays for the chemicals; the municipalities are responsible for the application of that chemical on the rights -of-way of public lands in every municipality. We do this with the Department of Agriculture officials, and at this time the officials have estimated the cost 3234

Monday, 24 June, 1985 of this to be about $3,000 to $5,000 for the application of chemicals on provincial trunk highway rights-of-way. That, to me, does not indicate a provincial emergency where we have to introduce some different measures than have been in place in the past. If those costs were tremendo usly higher than that, then I would refer it to the staff . . . We do not see that kind of . . . at the present time. If those figures are revised and there is a massive amount of expenditur e by the municipalities, then that would be a different story.

Right now, the fact that we have about $3,000 to $5,000, you spread that over a num ber of municipalities, that to me is not a massive problem, and I have said clearly that's the estima ted cost for application on provincial trunk highway rights-of-way for many years . . . MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I ask the Minister of Hig hways if he is not aware of the fact that last year the Province of Manitoba·provided some $78,000 to $80,000 to spray municipal roadways to assist them. Mr.

Speaker, I think the amount of the cost of application far exceeds the $3,000 to $4,000 that the Minister of Hig hways just referred to. In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that it has been ident ified by th e Department of Agricultur e th at grasshoppers are two-and-a-half times as bad as they were last year, and the cost to municipalities are continuing to skyrocket, Mr.

Speaker , will the Minister of Highways and Transportation re consider his decision not to assist the people of southwestern and southern Manitoba and spray provincial highway allowances, which is in fact his res ponsibility; will he carry that program out? HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Speaker, there is the same program, the same policy is in place that has been in place for a number of years, and that is that the Department of Highways has not been in the business of the controlling insects on the rights-of-way.

That is something that we have not yet put forward any changes in because we have yet to make changes in that particular program. I mentioned that if there was a massive outbreak, in terms of the application on rights­ of-way that we' ll look under a different program, and we would be prepared to do that. The information I have at the present time is that the cost is nominal at the present time for the additional application that is requir ed on the righ ts-of-way on provincial trunk highways; $3,000 to $5,000 is the estimate that I have at the present time, Mr.

Speaker, and that does not warrant a special program to be put in place. lt is the same program that was put in place, the same policy that was in place when the Member for Arthur was then the Minister of Agriculture, in fact we've even gone further with it in terms of supplying all the chemicals. MPIC - garages, Auto pac repairs MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Mini ster responsible for Autopac.

Has the Minister had an opportunity to more fully investigate the file on the windshield deductibility with my constituent's garage in Carman, Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Ye s, Mr. Speaker. As of last Friday, I was informed by the department that they were not aware that there had been any commitment from the firm in Carman to abide by the policies of the corporation. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that the garage is adhering to the policy by collecting the deductible from the customer, will the Minister not intervene and stop robbing the garage in Carman of the $50 deductible when they collected it from the customer? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Mr.

Speaker, this see ms to be about the third or fourth time the very same question has been asked and I will provide the same answer; that is, until such time as the corporation is provided with the written commitment from the firm that they are willing to abide by the policies, or by the rules that other similar busine sses are requi red to abide by, then the firm will continue to have part of a deduction made from its payme nt, until such time as the re is a commitment that they will abide by the rules that other firms are. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speak er, wou ld the commitment, assuming it is given by the garage in Carman, will the Minister then require the corporation to retroactively reimbur se my garage for all the money that is withheld? MR. SPEAKER: The question if hypothetical. Would the honourable member wish to rephrase the question. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, the Minister answers that a certain circumstance has to be followed. I wish to ask the Minister, will he order Autopac to pay retroactively for all of the claims, in full, and pay the withheld money to my garage? MR. SPEAKER: That is the same question; it is still hypothetical.

INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, if I could , with permission of members of the House, I would like to make a non-political introduction. Mr. Speaker, I would like to just draw the attention of honourable members to the presence of Mr. Stanley Knowles in the Speaker's Gallery. I am sure, on behalf of all members, we welcome Mr. Knowles here today. ORDERS OF THE DAY COMMITTEE CHANGES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have an appointment to the Statutory Regulations ar.d Orders Committee: Birt, the Member for Fort Garry, there was a vacancy on that committee. 3235

Monday, 24 June, 1985 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MRS. D. DODICK: Mr. Speaker, I have a committee change in Economic Dev elopment: Churchill for The Pas, and St. Johns for Burrows; and on Statutory Regulations, we have Wolseley for Kildonan. I thought that would be filling a vacancy. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I understand that in Estimates we are beginning Communi ty Services toda y in Room 255, in the committee room sect ion; and continuing with Education. lt is my intention to move that motion, Sir.

I would ask first if there is leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour. MR. SPEAKER: Is there leave to dispense with Private Mem bers' Hour today? I believe leave has been granted; - (Interject ion) - it has not been granted. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speake r. I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Community Services, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty .

MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jesty with th e Honourable Mem ber for River East in the Chair for the Depart ment of Education; and the Honourable Member for Burr ows in the Chair for the Department of Community Services. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - COM MUNITY SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoe: This

section of the Committee of Supply shall be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Community Services. We shall begin with an opening statement from the Honourable Minister responsible for the department. The Honourable Min ister. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Chairperson, I'm pleased to present the 1985-86 Estimates of Manitoba Community Services. The total Estima tes of my depar tment are $16 4,487,300, an increase of about 5.7 percent over 19 84-85. My department has come through an eventful but succes sful year, with many goals achieved and substantial progress accomplish ed in other fields.

The key to these achievements has been the commitment of my staff and the interest and dedication of thousands of Manitobans whose active participation in our program operations has made them work successfully in the commu nity. We continue to emphasize community-based services and the need for community participation, both in the development of social service policy and in actual service operation.

Virtually none of the program branches of Manitoba Community Services is without its community of interest and close ties to the community at large through a thriving network of dedicated volunteers and community assistance. In fact, two major departmental initiatives of the past year, the reorganization of Child and Family Services and the We lcome Home Program would have been impossible, even unthinkable, without the participation of the community from the beginning. We have achieved a succesful working partnership between gover nment and the wide and di verse Manitoba community.

Our goal for 19 85-86 will be to enhance this relationship in all our programs. In Child and Family Services, we are gratified by the accomplishments of the multif aceted reorganization of Child and Family Services that has taken place over the past year or so. The transformation of service structure in Winnipeg into six new regional and community-based agencies has been comp leted and the agencies are now operating. I am happy to report that community interest remains very high, as shown by participation in the annual meetings that have just been held, and the competition for seats on the boards of directors.

We are confident that the new agencies will offer and operate more effec tive, community-based, preven tion­ oriented services than was possible under the old structure. The new Child and Family Services Act, now being considered by this House, will provide the necessary legisla tive and phi losophical backing for our Child and Family Services as well as strengthening family life in Manitoba. The third significant aspect of service reorganization is the long overdue devel opment of reserve- based Native agencies, as well as agencies serving registered Indians,. non-status Indians and Metis living in Winnipeg.

Generally speaking, the agencies have developed more rapidly and comprehensively than we had dared to hope. The Child Day Care Program continues to be an outstanding Manitoba success story. We firmly believe our province has the finest day care program in Canada. We plan to open 450 new funded spaces in the coming year, to meet areas of greatest need. These will add to the more than 13 ,000 spaces now available to Manitoba parents.

Manitoba is committed to strengthening commun ity­ based, non-profit day care, which makes possible active parental parti cip atio n in th e dete rmi nation of environment and programs offered by local day care centres. We will continue to press for federal action toward a national day care act for all of Canada. We have offered both the draft act and the benefit of our 11 years of experience to facilitate development of a comprehensiv e national program. One of our most impo rtant preven tion-oriented services is family conciliation, now part of the enlarged Family Dispute Services Branch.

Family conciliation tries to ensure that in the event of parental separation children will have as much access as possible to the non-custodial parent, through agreement of both parents. Honourable members will appreciate that this 3236

Monday. 24 June, 1885 service will greatly reduce trauma for childr en caught in the disputes between their parents during separation. Child and Family Service agencies have reported for some years that a major category of their clients consists of families who split up without adequately dealing with custody and access. Family conciliation has succeeded in reducing the adversarial nature of many marital separations in Manitoba.

With the establishment of the new responsibility centre for family disputes we will start planning for extension of services across the province and to ensure that program standards are established and monitored. We will also ensur e that services are culturally appropriate for Native and immigr ant families. Services to battered women have advanced sig nificantly in the past year.

The outstan ding achievement has been greatly improved access to local and reg ionally based crisis services for women throughout Manitoba and the establishment in my department of funding procedures for regionally-based non-residential crisis services. The main goal of our programs remains equity and equal access to services such as shelters, counselling and safe homes. We now have a full-time extremely knowledgeable co-ordinator of Wife Abuse Services and my departm ent's regional staff have established close ties with local women's groups and crisis services.

Finally, in this division I will briefly mention the new Special Children's Services Branch which is concerned with mentally handicapped children as part of the Welcome Home Program. Special Children's Services is a long-range program to develop high quality, efficient services for mentally handicapped children at home or in institutions. We aim to increase the community's ability to care for all its children and in crease family access to children who must live in institutions.

The first years of program will be spent developing regional demonstration projects of enriched community­ based services for mentally handicapped children. This will be followed by implementation involving staff in Mental Retard ation, Child and Family Services and Day Care. The Welcome Home Program is moving forward well. As honourable members know, this will result in the transfer of about 220 residents at institutions for the mentally handicapped, to a variety of commun ity settings over a th ree-year period.

The transfers are being im plemented by com muni ty-based regional Implementation teams in all parts of Manitoba. In 1985-86 we hope to transfer about 80 persons to their families or to other local community residences. Actual arrangements are bei ng prepared by the Implementation teams. In a number of communities there will also be new and expanded services for the mentally handicapped. In addition, about 80 persons already in the commun ity, but iden tif ied as being "at risk" for Institutional placement, will receive enhanced services to prevent their institutionalization.

Welcome Home will also result in enriched services for the rema ining residents of our institutions through a higher staff-to­ resident ratio. We are proud of the strong community interest and participation in Welcome Home. This is shown by the fact that about 500 persons from the community are mem bers of the reg iona l impl ementation teams' responsible for the success of the program to date. In all, there will be an increase of $3.5 million for 19 85-86 in funds allocated to Welcome Home and re sidentia l and day programs for th e mentally handicapped.

The closure of the School of Psychiatric Nursing at the Manitoba Developmental Centre is part of this process. We decided that maintaining th ree small schools of psychiatric nursing was neither efficient nor desirable. Consequent ly, we are consolidating our psychiatric nursing training programs in Brandon and Selkirk, but we will continue to work with Manitoba Health and the Registered Psychiatric Nu rses Association of Manitoba to achieve the best possible resu lt.

I want to stress th at tr aining facilities will not disappear from Manitoba Developmental Centre, as training at Portage will continue to be an important part of the practicum for all the students at Brandon and Selkirk. As well, there will probably be a longer practicum for all these students at the Developmental Centre which will enhance the skills of all the trainees. In adult corrections, we continue to enjoy high interest in our community programs for inmates of correctional institutions.

At Brandon, we have one of the highest proportions of inmates working in the community of any institution in North America, with 70 pel"{;ent to 75 percent of sentenced inmates participating in some form of community work. At Headingley, about half the sentenced inmates are taking

part in a growing variety of community-based programs, such as assistance to non-profit community organizations and community clubs. In the current fiscal year, adult corrections staff will undertake several reviews in response to actual and anticipated pressures on our correct ional system. In anticipation of possible federal legislation to increase penalties for impaired dr ivers, we are working to identify appropriate alternative measures to prevent overcrowd ing and further straining of cor rect ional resources.

We are examining the needs of special offender groups such as sexual and spousal abusers when they are sentenced to terms in correctional centres. We are also examining the special cultural and spiritual needs of Native inmates and looking for ways to counter the disproportionately high percentage of Natives in Manitoba correctional institutions. We will be placing more emphasis on community participation in both the adult and youth justice systems. We will seek support from individuals and agencies and will work to maintain a close working relationship with agencies.

Our Fine Option Program , which operates in many communities and reserves throughout the province, will be expanded from its present concentration on adults to include you ng offenders. This expansion is a consequence of the proclamation last year of The Young Offenders Act, which prescribes a much higher limit on fines of $ 1,000, higher than the $25 under the now­ repealed Juvenile Delinquents Act. As a resu lt, we foresee much greater use of this alternative measure as Manitoba adapts to YOA.

For youth correct ions, implementing The Young Offenders Act has been its most challenging task in the 15 months th at YOA has been in force. In 3237

Monday, 24 June, 1985 conjunction with the Attorney-General's Department, federal departments, police, school divisions and a num ber of agencies and community groups, we have put in place or modified a wide variety of programs and procedures. We also initiated and co-ordinated a comprehens ive information and orientation program for agencies, government departments, law enforcement bodies and community groups. This program included 14 issues of a newsletter, the YOA into-line, and more than 10 0 orientation sessions given to various groups.

The programs and policies of Manitoba Community Services are an important part of this government's commit ment to social equality for all Ma nitobans. However, they should also be seen as a means of achieving economic equality. As Minister responsible for the Status of Women, I want to emphasize that achieving social and economic equality are synonymous. The two goals are inseparable. The Manitoba Government is taking and will continue to take a comprehensive approach to bring about economic and social equality for women.

Our goals and programs are aimed at women in the paid labour force and at tho se women whose contri butions to the economy and society are channelled through the home and th e communit y. Our commitments have been reflected in a num ber of accomplishments and projects still in progress. We are facilitating the ent ry, or re-entry, of women into the labour force and retrai ning or upgrading programs through impro vements to our day care program. We have instit uted affirmative action programs.

One at the Limestone project involves scholarship programs to encour age women to enter technology and engineering studies, special efforts by Manitoba Hydro to recruit female candidates for training programs, and a long-term goal of 50 percent female participation in both construction jobs and permanent positions at the completed project. Another is pay equity legislation with respect to Provincial Government employees. The Women's Directorate has undergone a change of name and an incr ease in its capab iliti es and responsibilities.

The di rectorate will ensure that government policies reflect the needs of the women of Manitoba. lt willl act as a resource and advisory body to departments and agencies in the government on the implications for women of their programs and proposals. We are convinced that the policies and proposals I have outlined for Manitoba Community Services and the Women's Directorate combine a responsible and practical approach with fairness and compassion in application. They will generate major benefits for all Manitobans thr ough the assistance given and the opportunities offered .

My department and this government as a whole will continue to exercise leadership in seeking to achieve these ends, and in offering examples and assistance for other governments in Canada. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Madam Minister. In accordance with customary practice, we shall now hear from the leading critic of the opposition party, who shall, if he so wishes, present a reply to the Minister's opening statement. The Mem ber for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I thank the Minister for her opening statement, and I must say that she has identified many, which we see as the problem areas on this side and which maybe, I suppose, from the Minister's point of view and from her department's point of view, they see this as great steps having been taken forward in many of these areas. The Minister and I maybe should get together and go to see the same optician because we seem to be seeing this particular department through two different pairs of glasses.

I would just like to again thank the Minister for her comments and say that we have done a rather complete review of this particular department starting from the 1982 Estimates up till the present time. I would just like to say that considerable rese arch has been done by P.C. research into this department, going as far back as a careful examination of performance from the 198 1- 82 Estimates to the 19 85-86 Estimates. We find that this government's statements do not coincide with the facts.

This government, during the last provincial election, said that they would reinstate Health and Social Services care in Manitoba. After careful examination of performance of this department from 1981-82 to 19 85-86, we find that services have fallen behind in excess of 17 percent. How honest is a government and a Minister when they state that the restruction of the Children's Aid Society from the old to the new system would not incur significant cost? To date, that increase in cost, we are told, is in excess of $2.5 million; $2.5 million, Mr.

Chairman, for this Mi nister to build a political empire for the NDP party and $2.5 million less to provide care for children. Where are their priorities? Ob viously , this Min ister is more interested in politicizing this department, because all top positions have been filled by appointment, than in providing care. The problem is, Mr. Chairman, that this increased cost of rest ructuring will be with us every year. Will we provide better care or service? The answer to date is no.

We have created more problems than we have solved, and there is no indication that the area of Family Services is anywhere near operating in as efficient a manner as under the old system. Does this department treat people with equality? Is treating people with equality not a responsibility of government? The government has granted itself and its various institutions at the Manitoba Development Centre, Seven Oaks Centre for Youth, the correctional centres, cost­ of-living increases for food, clothing and so on, yet it has not granted similar increases to private sector agencies which deliver residential services.

For example: St. Amant, the child welfare institutions, group homes, mentally retarded residences, these areas have not received that increase. The government has made available preventive services grants to child welfare agencies, and these 3238

Monday, 24 June, 1985 grants are available to city agencies only. The rural agencies, the Children's Aid Society of Central, We stern and Eastern Manitoba, nor the lnterlake, Parklands, Norman or Thompson regions, have not received these grants. In the case of the foster parents in St. James, who were under attack from Native agencies, each of the parties counsel was paid for by the government except the foster parents who incurred expen ses of many thousands of dollars which they paid out of their own pockets, and for what purpose, Mr.

Chairman? - just because they happen to have shown love and care for this particular foster child. Private day care versus not for profit day care is an issue based on ideolo gy and not on serv ice. All organizations have to meet the same set of standards, therefore quality of service issues are the same whether private or not for profit. Ye t, funding discriminates agai nst the pri vate day care and, inde ed, this government is making it extremely difficult for private agencies to remain in business, and why? - because of political hangups of this government. Mr.

Chairman, in the period between 198 1- 82 and the 19 85-86 Estimates, government expenditur es has grown 52 percent. lt is not possible to determine the overall expenditure level in Commun ity Services due to the spli tting up of the depa rtment into two departments: Community Services and Emp loyment and Economic Security . Direct Line Services that remain intact in the budget between 1981 -82 and 19 85-86, the level of growth and expenditure is in the order of 35 percent. When the government states we have sustained these services during this recess ion, we wonder about the truth of that statement.

There has been a considerable cut in direct services to people, considerable resources have been moved from direct services to people to services supporting government. For example, in 1981- 82, ministerial support and senior management of the department cost a total of $229,000.00. In 1985- 86, the combined cost of the ministerial support of the now two departments - Communi ty Services and Employment and Economic Security - it takes two departments now to do the work of what was previously done by one department, is $603,400, an increase of 163 percent.

In the area of program review and ev aluation, the increase during the same period of time and taking into account again two departments versus one department, the increase was $341 ,000 in 1981- 82; and the cost at the present time, in 19 85-86 budget, is $932,000 - an increase of 17 3 percent. In Communications, 19 81- 82, no expenditure; in 19 85-86, of the two departments $338,400 can be identified, and we know there is more.

In a couple of other areas, for example, in Community Social Services, the increase in administration is 122 perc ent; and in the Child and Family Services administration an increase of at least 240 percent. This, Mr. Chair man, is a tremendous inc rease in administration, and it's a story that ought to be told to the people of this province. Mr. Chairman, the Minister recently announced the approval of construction of a new Remand Centre, yet there is no money appropriation. 11 appears as if the Min ister is trying to deceive the public into believing that something is going to happen in Corrections.

The Min ister had some studies done on Headingley and other studies relating problems within Corrections, and it will be interesting to see whether any action has been taken as a result of these studies. Mr. Chairman, we look forward to the examination of these Estimates. I don't know if I will be present all the time during these Estimates, but there are other people who will be standing by if I won't be here. They will identified to the Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair thanks the Member for Rhineland.

At this point in time, the Chairperson invites the members of the departmental staff to kindly take their respective places. Def erring budget Item No. 1, relating to the Minister's Salary, which this committee shall consider as the last item for our consideration and delib eration, we shall begin with consideration of budget Item No. 1. (b)

(1) Adminstration and Finance, Executive Support, Salaries; 1. (b)

(2) Other Expendit ures - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If I could just have a minute to get myself organized. On Page 28 of this year's Appropriation, I understand that the total increase is 5.7 percent as opposed to the year ending March 31, 19 85. Just as a comment, Mr. Chairman, the two-year increase in Admin istration and Fina nce is 29. 1 percent in this par ticu lar department. We took a look at this; so just again to show you how Admin istration and Finance is increasing relative to other increases. Okay, I was speaking on the current operating expenditures.

I would like to ask some quest ions, if I could, on the recon ciliation statement. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland, what is the quest ion? MR. A. BROWN: Thank you. On the recon ciliation statement, I had some questions. For instance, what function was tra nsferred from Fina nce that cost $33,300.00? HON. M.

SMITH: We 've added an internal audit position to the Finance Department to assist us with program and financial evaluat ion. it's been a position and a function that has been recommended by Trea sury to enable us to further develop our planning systems so that we can ensure that money spent is, in fact, achieving the purpose for which it was spent and that we can improve our systems for monitoring expenditur e. MR. A. BROWN: My next question would be the transfer made from Health that cost 17 ,800.00. Also, the other question would be: what function was transferred from Labour that cost 419 , 700.00? HON. M.

SMITH: As you know, we work in a regional se tting with Health. In this case, it was ar. adjustment where a health worker was deemed to be doing more of a community service function. So it was just an adjustment. 3239

Monday, 24 June, 1985 The transfer over from Labour is to cover the cost of the directorate and the Advisory Council, Status of Women. As you recall, mid-year I assumed the responsibility for Status of Women at the death of the Honourable Mary Beth Dolin. She had that figure under the Labour Department before, so now it's been transferred for administrative purposes to come under Community Services. it's the block of funding that was available under the Status of Women. MR. A.

BROWN: Edu cation, $442,6 00, we have information that amount relates to the transfer of educational funding for institutional education programs from Community Services to Education. This raises a couple of questions. Has this funding been provided to those institutions through the Department of Education? In other words, has the replacement funding been provided, or have institutions suffered a net loss? HON. M. SMITH: We have transferred over monies that we were spending on education to the Department of Education, and they are allocating the monies according to their program for special needs education.

So the dispersal of those funds is more appropriately put to the other Minister. With 'regard to the Department of Health, when the two departments were split some of the functions weren't fully rationalized. We were managing some wheelchair repairs for physically disabled people. lt seemed more appropriate to shift that over to Health, because they dispense the wheelchairs and it seemed better for them to manage that aspect of the service. MR. A. BROWN: My second question would be: does this transfer affect all institutions or just private institutions?

For example, does the transfer affect the Manitoba Youth Centre, Agassiz and so on? HON. M. SMITH: No, in the correctional field, we're dealing with secure custody situations. We've kept the education under our jurisdiction. MR. A. BROWN: You say you cut the educational . HON. M. SMITH: No, we've kept it. MR. A. BROWN: Kept, oh. My next question is under Health. What is the 464,500 referred to there? What is being transferred to Health? HON. M.

SMITH: The wheelchair repair. lt was under the Society for Crippled Children grants that we give for service. lt was normally money we gave them, and then they provided the repair. What's happened now is that we've transferred that money over to Health, and the Society will deal directly with Health in securing that money and running the program. But there is no real program change. it's just an administrative clarity. They have the rest of the wheelchair program. We only have a small part of it. MR. A.

BROWN: Would that total be for wheelchair repair? lt seems like a lot of money for wheelchair repair in one particular year when we're spending almost half a million dollars. HON. M. SMITH: lt's for replacement and repair, but one thing you do discover when you get into these programs is that they really are quite costly. MR. A. BROWN: Okay, so then we're talking about different -does the Minister mean that there would be replacement and addition of new wheelchairs wherever they are needed?

If this is the case, I know that this is a question that usually throws the administration into a bit of a frenzy when you ask how many wheelchairs we are operating at the present time. But I wonder if the department would have that figure. MR. CHAIRMAN: The member asked how many wheelchairs. HON. M. SMITH: I can obtain that information. MR. A. BROWN: I would appreciate that information. Then I would like to know how many motorized wheelchairs we are operating. HON. M. SMITH: How many what? MR. A. BROWN: Motorized wheelchairs we have at the present time. Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if there have been any changes in the - I am talking about 1. (

b) now, Executive Support. Do you want to approve the other? MR. CHAIRMAN: We are on 1.(b)( 1) Executive Support: Salaries; 1. (b)

(2) Other Expenditures. Are we ready to pass this item? MR. A. BROWN: Okay. I just got the organizational structure here. Have there been any changes in the salaries at all in any of these positions over the past year? HON. M. SMITH: We haven't quite completed it, but we are in the process of putting the Adult Correctional Program into two streams. We are keeping adult and juvenile together, but we are dividing, for administrative purposes, into community corrections and institutional base corrections.

We had looked last year at focusing on the adult and juvenile split, but this year we have found it �etter to organize in terms of the community service del ivery side and the institutional service delivery. MR. A. BROWN: So do I understand that split already has been made? HON. M. SMITH: it's in process. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) -pass; 1. (b)(2)-p ass. 1. (c)( 1) Research and Planning: Salaries; 1. (c)

(2) Other Expenditures -the Mem ber for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: I wonder if the Minister could give us an indication of where they are going at the present time as far as Research and Planning is concerned. HON. M. SMITH: Well, we are charging our Research and Planning group to help us to know where to go. 3240

Mond•y, 24 June, 1985 Basically, they provide a general service that helps to analyze current program gaps, overlaps, problem areas, and to help work with the planners in each division, what the different options are and the costs, the aspects relating to them, so that we can make the most informed judgme nts. Basically, they are a support service to the Deputy Minister and the department's Executive Management Comm ittee. So they provide the policy analysis. They co-ordinate policy research, and they promote orderly liaison with other government agencies.

They have particular responsibility for planning, co-ordinating and monitoring our annual and multi-year planning cycles. Then they will also help with specific planning processes. MR. A. BROWN : There are a number of areas which I would like to discuss over here, because this is your Planning and Research Department. Maybe we should start with the Child Abuse Program. Can the Minister tell me whether any changes are anticipated in policy in the Child Abuse Program coming up? Are we going to be continuing in the same way?

Because I understand that there is some difficulty coming forward and being enunciated by people who have not received the type of follow-up that they would have liked to have received after the abuse had been identified. I would like to see what the Minister has to say about that. HON. M. SMITH: lt's true that the planning group assists us with identifying issues such as that, and giving us some planned approach to meeting the need. I think the specifics with regard to somet hing like child abuse is better dealt with under Child and Family Services.

But what planning helps us to do is, instead of just encouraging a rather ad hoc response or a temptation to try to throw a lot of money -and as you know, money is not that readily obtainable these days - but building up expensive ad hoc systems to deal with the problem, they help us to ident ify what the different elements of a program are, such as educating the public, working with other professional groups and community people to assist with identification and reporting, protocols, and so on, and then helping with dealing, first of all, with the Crisis Services, then planning the follow-up.

As with any emerging social problem, we start off behind the eight ball, because the problem is always very much larger than our ability to deal with it. Step 1 has always to be to make the public aware that the problem is there, so that we can get their support in dealing with it. Then we gradually move into altering our system so that it can meet with it. In a time when money was easy to get for any department, I suppose we could have built up a mammoth structure to deal with a specific like child abuse.

But I think, having resisted that temptation and trying to go the more solid and communit y-integrated approach, that we are going to have longer-term benefits because we are working on the preventive as well as the crisis and the longer­ term follow-up. I would be the first to say though that, with programs such as this, the program doesn't catch up to meet all the need imme d iately . There is requir ed a developmental time. There aren't even people out there trained to know how to deal with it. So you have to deal with tra ining your staff and building in the community networking system.

But I would prefer to go into greater detail on that program when we hit the Child and Family Services. MR. A. BROWN: I suppose the Minister would then like to discuss all these issues not under planning policy and program in instances such as spouse abuse and child and family services and all, when we get to those departments. HON. M. SMITH: I could add just a few more items, so that you understand the role of the Research and Planning.

They are very heavily involved with, as I mentioned before, dealing with other government departments at the provincial level, but they are also very heavily engaged when we're dealing with federal­ provincial relations, giving us background papers, monitoring the potential changes there and helping us identify what initiatives we wish to take in our federal­ provincial relationships. That means also keeping in touch with other Provincial Gove rnments, and monitoring what is going on in other provinces.

Internally, they have also been helping us to develop information systems within government, so that we are in a better position to know the scope of the problems. One of the real difficulties in Community Services is that there is a lot of need out there, but there has never been an orderly or a consistent capacity in government to know the extent of the need or be able even to do more than just list the different services. You have to develop the service further . You have to get much more analytical in order to know the best way to allocate scarce resources.

So it is in helping us to make those kinds of judgments that the Research and Planning group really provide an invaluable service to us. MR. A. BROWN: My question then is that there is a substantial increase in salaries in the amount of $58,700.00. lt is a 13. 1 percent increase. What was this incr ease? HON. M. SMITH: There has actually been one increase in staff, a specialist to deal with federal-provincial negotiations on tripartite agreements for Native Child Welfare. The other incr ease is ju st the norm al incremental salary cost. MR. A. BROWN: In Other Expenditur es, we have an increase of 42.8 percent.

Can the Minister explain that increase? HON. M. SMITH : lt is basically, when this group was put together, there wasn't much operating money, particularly with the feder al-provincial activity that has been going on. We felt we should budget a bit for travel and for general operating, But as you can see, the resources to the group are mainly in salaries, mainly people costs. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)(1)-p ass; 1.(c)(2)- pass. 1. (d)( 1) Commu nications: Salaries; 1. (d)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BR'"IWN: I would just like to make a comment on the previous area on programming and Re5 �arch 3241

Monday, 24 June, 1985 and Planning. The increase over a two-year period now has been 28.6 percent. I think, Mr. Chairman, that it is rather important that we take a look back every once in a while and see which direction we are head ing because, if we take a look at them on a year-by-year basis, sometimes these increases seem minimal. Yet, when you take them over a four-year period of time, you come in with huge, huge in creases. (d)( 1) ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister wants to comment and reply. HON. M.

SMITH: I think again, when evaluating the growth in Research and Planning, one should look at the fact that the budget of the department is in the $1 60-plus million range. I think any complex operation, such as we have where we are working with funding a lot of agencies to do things; we are doing direct service; we have rising expectations, limited resources; a changing federal-provincial climate that, if we don't put some money into analysis and up-front planning, we may find ou rselves penny-wise and pound-foolish.

I find this particular function of great assistance to me in helping to sift through the various problems and chart th e wisest public course. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (d)( 1) , 1. (d)(2) -the Mem ber for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, I was just asked a question of where was the Wife Abuse Program going to come in. I believe that would be under Status of Women. Is that correct? HON. M. SMITH: No, it comes under Family Disputes. lt's a subdivision of Child and Family Services, 4.(

e) on Page 32. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are we able to pass 1. (d)(1) , 1. (d)(2)? MR. A. BROWN: No. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: We are in Communications. We are now seeing a two-year increase of 32 1 percent. Mr. Chairman, this is of great concern to us. We have expressed this in the House a number of times, that we are really concerned about Communications and what this government and every department is doing in Commun ications.

I would like to hear how this department can possibly justify such an enormous increase when field services available to peo ple are either not being increased significantly or, in some cases, even cut back. To me, it seems that there must be other ways of getting the story across than spending so much of our budget on Communications. So I would like to hear the Minister justify that type of expenditure. We are short of money in the province. We have been running deficit after deficit. Yet, in this particular area of Commu nications, there seems to be no end to the type of expenditure that we are willing to make.

I would like to hear some comments from the Minister justifying that type of expenditure by her department. HON. M. SMITH : Again, I think the proportion is low, even though the year-over-year may look relatively high. We are dealing in a field of Community Service where, as government, we play a certain role in terms of planning and policy direction, but a great deal of our work is done with volunteer groups, with community groups. Also we need to reach to the very people who need the service.

We can't presume in this day and age that just offering good things is enough, if the very people in need don't have any way of understanding the service is there or how to access it. The actual increase in expenditure is accounted for by two newsletters that went out to interpret what we're doing and how and why, the Communi ty Options -we have copies available for you -and another program for half that amount to recruit volunteers.

As we said, one way we are able to provide the quality of service we do throughout the department is that we -and I'll be refer ring to it quite consistently as we go through -enrich our service a very great deal by recruiting volunteers and involving them. lt stretches the public dollar. lt also produces a better quality of service, because local people are involved in building some of those relationships and networks that have a preventive and developmental role. We employ a lot of volunteer drivers, helpers and so on. We must recruit them and keep that information flow up.

So I really don't find the total amount at all disproportionate. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, if this was the funds and we possibly would not be all that much concerned, but we know very well that this is not the total amount. We know, for instance, and I'm certain that amount is not included in this figure, is that, when the Minister announced the Wife Abuse Program, she was going · to spend, I believe, $300,000 on that particular program and $10 0,000 of that monies was going to be spent on communication so that we know that there is much much more mo ney spent on commun ication.

A person must wonder why are we spending all that money just to get the story across of all the things that we are hoping to do at some particular point in time? lt doesn't make sense. Some of these programs, if they were really effective like in the case of the wife abuse, · for instance, I would assume that problems were being identified, then the Minister found that she was out of money. She had absolutely no money to cope with the situatio n. So there is very little sense in advertising that type of program and spending so much money in this particular area. HON. M.

SMITH: The bulk of the communication money is not spent telling people what we've done, but informing the people who need the service and indeed recruiting the very people who help to deliver the service. You cannot operate a community-based service without having a good information-sharing service.

When we get to issues like the wife abuse, it was 100,000 that was put in, but there is nine or 10 times that amount for the development of the program. lt was not put out to say aren't we great; we're doing a lot. lt was put out because, in our analysis of the problem and in our phased approach to trying to resolve it, making the public aware of the myths surrounding wife abuse, the fact it's a community problem, that it 3242

Monday, 24 June, 1985 cannot be tolerated, drawing on the resources of the broader, healthy community as it were to support the individuals as well as through public programs - we need both -we really couldn't have developed the program without that. it's an essential part of the program development. lt is a public education tool. I think, as we go through the programming, we can discuss how we've used communications as an essential tool in reaching people. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (dX 1)-p ass; 1.(dX2) -the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, I note that none of this money is recoverable from Canada.

That means that it's not cost-shared. This make s it just that much more worse that it's 100 cent dollars that we're talking about over here. The Federal Government is not going to participate in the type of communication. If the communic ation were of the type where it would be informing the public of programs, more than likely this particular item would qualify for some participation by the Federal Government.

But in this particular instance, there is absolutely nothing coming forward from the Federal Government. lt is 10 0 percent, 10 0 cent dollars that the Department of Corrections and Community Services is spending on commun ications. HON. M. SMITH: In fact, we did get some cost recovery on some areas in day care and corrections. In other areas -and let's take the wife abuse area -at mee tings of federal -provincial social service Ministers, we have all been encouraging one another and the Federal Gov ernment has certainly been encouraging th e provinces to share their materials in wife abuse.

The attitude and response to the problems that have been developing right across the country has certainly put the public outreach and public education as top priority. So again, if there is no federal sharing, I would think that the answer would be to lean on the Federal Government to take a better share in dealing with this very important social issue. lt costs us 100 time s as much if we wait and have everyone imprisoned or suffering poor health. it's better that we get in at the beginning of a problem and try to prevent it and deal with it in the earlier stages. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. L.

HYDE: Mr. Chairman, I was wondering if the Minister could inform me just as to when or whether or maybe we have passed the department that I would have liked to have discussed, the Big Brothers and Sisters. Could she inform me where we could discuss that, please? HON . M. SMITH: it's under

Section 4.(b). MR. CHAIRMAN: it would be und er 4.(b), Child and Family Support. MR. L. HYDE: Oh yes, okay. Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (dX1) -pass; 1. (dX2)-p ass. 1. (eX 1) Financial Services: Salaries, 1.(eX2) Other Expenditur es -the Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: I wonder if the Minister would be able to give us some comment on the functions of this particular department. HON. M. SMITH: There are two major components. There are accounting services and budgetary and cost­ sharing services.

Accounting services prepare and process all the program and operating expenditure billings for the department, ensure a tim ely and orderly flow of transaction vouchers to the Department of Finance for payment; receive and control revenue and trust monies. Prima ry functions are voucher processing acc ounts payable, main tena nce of clients' trust accounts and revenue accounting and acc ounts receivable.

On the budgetary and cost-sharing services, they co­ ordinate, monitor and provide a comprehensive budget support service to all divisions, plus the administration of the Canada Assistance Plan and the new Young Offenders Act Agreement, other cost-sharing agreements between the province and the Federal Government.

Prim ary functions of this component are: assisting in preparing annual Budget Estimates, monitoring and analyzing expenditures and revenues, preparation of claims under Canada Assistance Plan, The Young Offenders Act and vocational rehabilitation of disabled persons' agreements, assessment and justification of existing departmental programs with respect to cost­ sharing implications, and maintenance of departmental expenditure coding manual. MR. A. BROWN: I notice that, under Salaries, there is a 12.1 percent increase. Can the Minister explain that increase? Was there any change in staff? HON. M.

SMITH: No, th ere is th e same staff complement. The incr ement pattern hits a littl e differe ntly in each group, depending on whether people are relatively new employees or have been there a long time and are no longer getting into their maximum. We also found that the internal audit, there's a little bit more money in that function. lt is a full year 's salary this year. Last year, it was a partial. MR. A. BROWN: Is the Minister then saying that, by and large, there was an increase of close to 12 percent or so in salaries?

That seems like a rather large increase if we're going to go by the guidelines which was the 2 percent or whatever increase that was going to be paid to civil servants. HON. M. SMITH: There is nothing other than what would be accounted for by increments and the full year's salary of the Internal Auditor. We can get the detail. There was also a person tra nsferred in. We have two positions in the Internal Audit, and one of the people transferred in for part of the year. He came in at a slightly higher rate than was budgeted. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)( 1)- pass; 1. (e)(2)-pass. 1. (f)( 1) Administrative Services: Salaries; 1. (fX2) Other Expenditur es -the Mem ber for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: In this particular area, I notice that three vehicles come under this area. How many units do we have at the present time? 3243

Monday, 24 June, 1985 HON. M. SMITH: 260. MR. A. BROWN: That is for the entire department, including Correct ions and Family Services? HON. M. SMITH: Ye s. MR. A. BROWN: I believe that this particular area is also responsible for the office space rentals for Child and Family Services. Would you like to discuss that under this particular item, or should we discuss that under Child and Family Services? HON. M. SMITH: You would find the departmental stall covered here, but the new agencies would be covered under the Child and Family Service budgets. MR. A.

BROWN: So any questions that we would want to ask as far as rental for a space and so on, should be asked under Child and Family Services, the numb er of locations in each area, that type of information? HON. M. SMITH: Any relating to the new agencies, yes. MR. A. BROWN: How many computers do we have? I bel ieve computers come under this, under data processing and so on. How many computers do we have? HON. M. SMITH: There are 22 establi shed computer systems. MR. A. BROWN: I beg your pardon? HON. M. SMITH: 22.

That's the systems which will be co-ordinated under a master, because we tie into the main frame and have a few minor systems as well. I can get more detail. But basically the number, 22, refers to the number of systems that we're managing, two minis and six micros. MR. A. BROWN: I notice that we have a 10.4 percent increase in Salaries over here. Has there been change in staff? Did everyone in this particular area get a 10 percent increase in wages? HON. M. SMITH: No, other than the increment situation, reg ular in creases, th ere is no change in stall or cl assificat ion as far as I kn ow.

One person was reclassified. That impacts on the total, but everyone else was under the general pattern. MR. A. BROWN: Generally speaking then, stall received a 10 percent increase in salary? HON. M. SMITH: No. lt was a very low percent, but ther e is the increment pattern which does affect each group a little differently. Again, if you want the detail, I can obtain it, but there was nothing extraordinary done in this area other than the one rec lassification, the normal increments. MR. A. BROWN: I would appreciate that information, Mr. Chairman.

If I could have the breakdown between the increment increase and the salary increase, I would appreciate that information. I'm willing to wait a couple minutes if that is what is required. HON. M. SMITH: I have the detail here. On quick perusal, there was reclassification of the people who were training to work on the comput ers, because the nature of their work shifted somewhat. There's a few of them getting very small increases , one or two $5,000 or $6,000 and that's the accumulative - it gives that total - but there was nothing over the usual MGE A increase.

We were apparently underpaying relative to other departments and the review regularized the situation. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (fX2)-pa ss. l.(gX 1) Personnel Salaries; 1. (gX2) Other Expenditures - The Member for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, I would like to know a little bit more about the training programs, and who does the evaluat ion. Maybe the Min ister could give us some kind of a rundown on this particular item before I start asking questions. HON. M. SMITH: Just for clarification, did the member mean who did the evaluation of the training programs, or who identified the training needs of the stall? MR.

A. BROWN: What kind of training programs do we have; who does the eval uation of staff; who does the selection of staff? I wonder if the Minister could give me a rundown of what is happening. I have a number of questions really that I would like to ask and they might be answered if the Min ister were to give us a statement; if not, I can . . . HON. M. SMITH: The practice of the department in hiring is to work with the civil service guidelines. The mana gement supervisor that you've see n, the organizational structure and people are re sponsible for evaluating the work of people who are accountable to them.

We 've been dev eloping performance management and appraisal systems in Affirmative Action Programs within identifying training needs. There's also an empl oyer orientation process in place. We are spending more time on the staff training and development, because the needs of a lot of the programs are changing quickly and we need to be sure that staff are given an opportunity to keep their skills and knowledge up to date and ready to tackle in some cases, issues that wer en't necessarily even known about or talked about when they had their initial training.

So there's quite a systematic approach developing for this. There's quite a bit to be done as yet, but we've considered it a valuable initiative. MR. A. BROWN: The Minister says that they're going by the Civil Service guidelines. Does the Civil Service Commission, do they get involved at all when you're hiring new personnel or in yoor personnel procedures; or who makes the decision; who does the recr uiting; who makes the selec tion? As a matter of fact, I would like to know, you must have some kind of a board, I would think. Who sits on 3244

Monday. 24 June, 1885 this board; how many are from the Civil Service Commission; where are these people from on that board? HON. M. SMITH: The senior personnel are hir ed with Civil Service Boards and there's usually a minimum of three people on a board - a Civil Service appointee, a department appointee and one other person with relevant expertise usually to advise on the candidates. The junior position, the responsibility is delegated to managers within the department and there's a bit of a hierarchy here; the more senior the position, the more requirement there is for Civil Service boarding.

We publicly advertise positions and go through the selection process within the department. it's only at the senior level where we work with Civil Service board. MR. A. BROWN: I understand that this would be mainly for the senior people within the department, however when it comes to the evaluation of staff and so on, i would presume that this would be the evaluation and classifications of all staff and this would be done by your senior people. This evaluation would be done by the Deputy Minister's Office in other words. HON. M.

SMI TH: We have over a 1, 000 di rect employees and another 1,000 that we indirectly impact in our department and it would be impossible to centralize all that evaluation in the Deputy Minister's Office. There's a little bit of a pyra mid; I guess you could say, a structure, whereby supervisors at each level are responsible for evaluating the performance of the people who work under them, and then they in turn, are responsible to the person who they report to -they would report on the performance of their staff.

So the Deputy Minister would really only be directly involved in supervising senior management; but we are developing this performance management and appraisal system so that in a sense we're increasingly using common procedures to train people in better skills in personnel management. lt has always been one of the more difficult areas, I guess, in management, but a very important element. MR. A. BROW N: I see that you have a training program here of staff resources.

I would like to ask the Minister if training, especially in the Child and Family Services Department, is that done by this particular item or is that type of training, again, done by Child and Family Services because we have many changes in Child and Family Services where previous people who had certain expertis e in certain areas are now working in a sort of general way? There must be quite a retraining program happening at Child and Family Services. Is that involved in this particular item? HON. M.

HEMPHI LL: No, that training responsibility would show up in the Child and Family Service area at the local level and the directorate level. There are quite a few training events, on-the-job tra ining, short courses and so on, that are available. I think you're gett ing some of the concern about whether all the specialists are generalists and are we going to fire in the other direction? I think when we get to that

section we can talk a bit about the mix of specialists and generalists who are required, but that is probably in the past. We have leaned a little too much to the specialist. There is a buildup now on the generalis! side - but everyone acknowledges we do need a mix, and it is just coming down on the appropriate mix for the service delivery system. But, again, we are asking people to focus on the broader family issues and not always see a person in isolation so that sometimes a person who only dealt with adoption before might now have to move a bit into some of the family support services.

So, in some cases, it Is going to take some ongoing training. lt is partly because the service mode is shifting that people's jobs are changing, but we still recognize the need for some specialties. We are very conscious of the need to offer people appropriate upgrading and training. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a couple of questions dealing with this particular area.

The first question I would ask the Minister is: in the year of the Estimates we are dealing with, has anything been added to or expanded to this particular aspect of your budget that was different from last year? Has it taken on any new functions, new responsibilities, that sort of thing? HON. M. HEMPHI LL: There was a transfer over of the payroll unit from Financial Services. That Is a group of five positions. There has been some redeployment within. For example, we had a work-share agreement last year with the Civil Service Commission.

That has terminated, and now Corrections personnel activities have gone back to that division. That led to one additional recruitment classification position, and there was another position for staff training and development. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, looking at last year's Estim ates, it wou ld appear tha t the estimated expenditure for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1985, was some $285,200 of which $253,100 was Salaries, yet you show the expenditu res as of March 31st of this year, of 1985, as $433,600.00. 11 is not quite a doubling of it, but could the Minister explain why there is such a large increase?

HON. M. HEMPHI LL: Yes, the practice in the Finance Department is that, when there is a transfer of a function from one area to another, they adjust the last year 's vote accordingly, so that, in a sense, they make the appropriate adjustment so that what you get before you is a comparison of the functions and not necessarily how they were grouped administrat ively. So In fact, the shift has been primarily because of that payroll unit plus a bit of other reallocation, but the total complement of staff has remained unchanged for the personnel function.

You'll find that the bottom line will add up from last year to this year, but there's some reallocation within the functions. But that's carried out consistently throughout all the government budgeting. MR. C. BIRT: So as I understand it, there have been five positions transfe, red from another department in to your department, this payroll - (lnterjeGt ion) - 3245

Monday , 24 June, 1985 HON. M. SMITH: No, from the payroll unit under Financial Services. MR. C. BIRT: Within your department. HON. M. SMITH: Ye s, within - it used to be in another sect ion; it was in 1. (e). MR. C. BIRT: And second ly, you made reference to a work sharing agreement and then you mentioned corrections - what I'm trying to determine is that five positions seems like an awful lot to have a quarter of a million dollars added to your payroll budget and I'm just trying to get a better breakdown as to where it's coming from.

But with the termination of job sharing, there should have been some savings, it seems to me. HON. M. SMITH: The Civil Service Commission was doing some of the personnel work for the department and that has ceased. So in a sense, they've taken the block of money and staff that were performing that function for us and put it back into our area. MR. C. BIRT: So there was a readjusting of some financial people within your department, but there was also some additional work being transferred to you that had previously been carried out by the Civil Service Commission.

If that's correct, could you elaborate what the commission used to do and now this particular unit is carrying? HON. M. SMITH: Ye s, remembering that the Civil Service budget would have been adjusted as well, so it would show out there. Well, personnel activities again, would be recru itment, selec tion, classification, training. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, why would the transferring of certain Civil Service Commission responsibility come to the department? Is there a change in policy and is this being reflected in each of the departments? Is certain stuff being transferred over to each of the line departments?

HON. M. SMITH: I guess people who have had a longer history with the allocation of tasks, the departments might give us the full

interpretation; but as I understand it, larger departments have their own personnel capacity and Corrections used to exist apart from Community Services, and Community Services used to be with Health and somewhere in the sorting out, the personnel function for Corrections had stayed with the Civil Service Commission. They now thought it was timely that, given the size of our operation and our ability or whate ver, that it was more appropriate to devolve it into our department. MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, could the Minister provide if not a specific figure, maybe at least an approximation, of how much of this additional money from last year's Estimates is really going to the extra training that the Minister's just referred to; you know, the 50 perce nt of the increase over last year, or is it 20 percent? HON. M. SMITH: We actually have one person doing the staff training that wasn't doing it last year and there's an increase of $1 0,000 for empl oyer ... MR. C. BIRT: Mr.

Chairman, that reference to the $1 0,000, is that the explained increase on the next line? lt goes from a 32 to the 42; that's the extra? HON. M. SMITH: Ye s. MR. C. BIRT: If I understand it correctly, that it's primarily just a transferring of administration from one line of your budget to another line? In fact, you're not really getting that much more in the way of training personnel - I don't mean to minimize that one person that's been added in - but if that quarter of million or whatever that's been transferred into this area of the budget, most of it's going on this Admin istrativ e financial detail. HON.

M. SMITH: That's right. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Chairman, I have further questions, but it's almost 4:30. Could we call it 4:30; it might be a good time to break off. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is that agreeable to every member of the Committee? (Agreed) So be it. The time being now 4:30 p.m., we are interrupting this procee dings of this Committee for Private Mem bers' Hour. The members of the Committee shall return to the committee room on or before 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - EDU CATION MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee, come to order. We are considering the Estimates of Education, Item 4.(

c) Native Education - the Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, I'm wondering if the Min ister could provide for us a detail of any new programs that may have been implemented within the public school system within this area over the past year. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, if I was to explain, I think the major actillities of the Native Education Branch for the coming year, we would largely be describing a continuance of initiatives that we took last year where the major thrust is still in the very important areas of Native language development.

We have expansion in quite a large number of schools across the province and the numbers of languages that we are teach ing. I would say that one of our major thrusts and focuses is the English language program that we announced through the government support program last year where we have $1. 2 million for the development of English language programs for Native and Immigrant students. That is a major thrust that was undertaken.

We have also this year moved into a co-ordinated program with the community where we have the Native community very interested and very concerned and wanting to take a fair amount of both responsi bility and participation in the development of Native language. To that end, we have a group set up that is using the 3246

llondaJ, 24 June, 1885 elders of the Native language community. This group will be working e»-operativety with the Native education branch for the training of professionals, training of teachers, the development of language materials, the development of additional resource materials to go along with that. I think it's probably quite unique in the country in terms of a co-operative program between the community elders and the Native Education Branch. We have a course -it isn't in the public school system - in the University of Manitoba where we are teaching the Native language methods.

The course is being taught to help teachers understand teaching methods. I would say that the English language, Native language, the inner city team that we set up the other day will be focusing on all inner city issues. Certainly the urban Native students are one of the issues that are facing us. So those are, I think, the main

summary of the issues. MR. C. MANNESS: The Minister talks about Native language programs. Could the Minister tell me whether there is one specific language, or is there more than one Native language that is being developed in a curriculum form? What specific, basic courses are being developed in Native language areas? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, we're continuing with the programs that I announced last year and some expansion. We are now developing language programs in Cree, Ojibway, Dakota, Sioux and island Lake dialect.

We have gone from 19 81-82 where we had 22 schools that had the Native language instruction -11 were provincial, 5 federal and 7 under local control -to 1984- 85 where we have 35 schools, 13 provincial, 2 federal and 18 under local control. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Chairman, the Minister may wish to defer my next question to what she may consider a more appropriate section.

I have before me though, dated April 25th, a News Service release entitled, "Special Engineering Studies for Native Students Planned." I'm wondering if the Minister could tell us, first of all, whether she wants to answer questions with respect to this at this time or in

Section 5. HON. M. HEMPHILL: I would prefer to discuss this area under the University Programs, if that's all right. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(cX 1)-p ass; 4.(cX2)- pass. 4.(

d) Manitoba School for the Oeaf:

(1) Salaries - the Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I just have a couple of qu estions. I know th e Honourable Minister has reminded me that I have spoken on this subject before, and I had a note that was sent to me that I wanted to speak on from one of my friends.

But I think that the important part about this particular subject -you know, I compare it with the French language issue where we feel that we know that people who speak French have the right to speak French in the Legislature and in the courts and, more important, they have the right to be understood in the Legislature and in the courts. I bring this in not because it's a legal aspect, but because of a moral aspect, people who cannot speak in any language because of their deafness and being mute. I think that it comes under this particular section.

You know, they have the right to be educated so that they can commun icate, but they also have the right to be understood. That's what I wanted to get across to the Minister. People like myself and others like myself -and they could be from any political party, I'm not trying to say that it's just the Conservatives. The Liberals and the NDP all have a special feeling. Why do we not have a program to allow people to communic ate with these people who have the hearing problem and the speech problem so that they can commun icate? They have the right to come down to the Legislature.

They have the right to go down into the courts, and they do have the right to have somebody translate for them in the courts. Why do we not have any money set aside so that we can teach people so that these people can have the right to be able to commun icate? The Minister has advised in the past that there is no money available. Well, I see monies being spent, and I don't want this stuff, you know, you can't have it both ways. Don't give me that you can't have it both ways, cut down on the deficit. You say to cut down the deficit and here I am, suggesting that we spend more money.

There is so much money being wasted in different things that I would hope that the Minister could look at the whole program and come up with some additional funds so people like myself can enter into one of these schools and take the training program at no cost to myself. I want to do a public service, and I don't think that it should cost me anything to perform this public service. I'm not looking for anybody to say thank you, but I don't want it to have to cost me any money. Can the Minister advise me whether my thinking is right, wrong, Indifferent, because I have started on the cou rse?

I was going to communic ate in sign language, American signing, which I can. I can give you my name, which is A-B-E, and I can carry on In -oh, there's somebody there who does understand, so I better not play any games. A-B-E, okay. So I do have some background, and there are a lot of us who do have some background, but we'd like to improve this background. Can the Minister advise if there are any monies available so that people like myself can impr ove my signing and be able to commu nicate with these people who have every bit as much right to commun icate as anybody else in the Province of Manitoba? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I thank the member for his continued interest in this area. I know that both he and I feel quite strongly about the usefulness of the language and have both been interested in studying it. I think he has found time. If I understand, he's in a program now, and I am still hoping to get into one. There are some possibilities this year that were not there perhaps last year.

That was because of a major thr ust that we'r e undertaking in post-secondary education where we are quit e will ing to develop programs in communiti es and through the colleges that are of interest to adults and senior citizens. Some of these are being delivered by school boards, and some of them are being delivered by the colleges, and some of them are being taught actua lly in communit y agencies. 3247

llondll y, 24 June, 1985 The only requirement really is that there is enough indication of interest. So I would say that the courses, of course, are available now. I don't like to ask, but what did you pay? About $36 for your course, was it? MA. A. KOVNATS: I can't remember, plus my book. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Plus the book. So that it is available for people like himself and myself who are willing and interested in taking the course.

I think his interest in having it available to people who might be interested but who couldn't afford the money or didn't think that they should have to pay for it because the benefit would be for broader commun ication and understanding by the deaf community with the non­ deaf community which is what he's really getting it. I would suggest that other than those courses that people can tap into through the School for the Deaf and the Kiwanis Centre where their programs are run, there are also some courses, I think, available out in the rural areas for some kids who might be in a class with deaf children.

There are some opportunities for that. But I do think that we could make some opportunities available for adults through our Adult and Continuing Education if there was an Interest. Certainly if we found that anybody who really needed it couldn't afford it, we would probably make it available through the Manitoba School for the Deaf at no cost. But that doesn't address the problem which he is getting at, which is just general population and general public having access to programs at no cost, so there can be better communications between the deaf and the non-deaf community.

I would say that if there is interest -and we might even put it out as one of the subjects for people to sign up, to indicate an interest. If there is an interest out there, I think we could easily handle it through our Adult and Continuing Education Program. MR. A. KOVNATS: The Honourable Minister, she used the words, "if there was an interest," well, I can assure the Honourable Minister that there is an interest, and there is great pride and satisfaction.

I was sitting on the bus the other day - my car had broken down which it is prone to do on occasion -and a couple of students got on the bus and they were signing to each other. I jumped right in with great, great difficulty, but it gave me great pride because I could just see everybody on the bus looking at Abe Kovnats communicating with these people. it wasn't a good communication, but I felt so proud. I think that the cost factor really isn't that significant.

I don't think that I wouldn't take the course because of the cost factor, and I don't think anybody would not take the course because of the cost factor. The cost factor is just a responsibility that I think that the Department of Education, because they are good corporate citizens, should pay for. lt's not a big factor. I think the Honourable Minister could walk pretty tall, walking down the street and saying, well, you know, I set that program in motion because I felt good about it. Let her take the credit for it. That would suit me just fine, because there would be other people who communicate.

You know, I started off earlier about how I was suggesting that people who speak the French language have a right to communicate and be understood. If you look at the signing, it incorporates all languages. it's not just French and English and Chinese.and Jewish and Ukrainian and German. The signing, it's not a matter of the letters, the figures. There is a chap right here in the building who works for the Province of Manitoba - I think he's part of the cleaning staff - who is completely deaf and he can make some sounds. But I get to him.

Each day, when I see him walking down the corridors pushing his cart, I look at him and I say hello to him. I ask him if he's working. He says, yes, he Is. He is working. He's working real hard, and we get this kind of a communication. He tells me that the words for man, in English, it's man; and, in French, it's homme; but in sign language it's all one term, as you tip your hat. The same thing for madame or lady, it's the straps from those old bonnets that come down the side. This is the figure for that. For mouse, you know, it's different in English or French, but the sign is the same universally.

So there is something that you can combine, a better understanding of people. People who cannot speak the same language or speak different languages can communicate together under one language, and it's called American signing or sign language. The word for mouse where they just tap the sharp nose to indicate mouse; the word for rat, it's the letter "R," the same type of a signal. I think I have given you just about all I know in sign language. A MEMBER: Good course, Abe. MR. A. KOVNATS: Oh, no, no. You've got your cows and your horses and you can communicate, but it's such a wonderful language.

I would like to see ewrybody share in it; that's part of the reason. I have a special feeling for these people, but it's also that I think it could do so much to have people understanding one another. That is my suggestion to the Minister. I really don't want any credit for it. Just let the Minister take some money out of some department and spread the good word; that's all I ask. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Perhaps we can call it the "A be Kovnats Sign Language Program" or something like that. No, I think he makes a good suggestion.

I am simply going to end by saying that I will be directing our post­ secondary, educational programs to get out some information that promotes a program like that. We'll see what interest there is in the community. I am quite sure that we can find money under that appropriation if there is demonstrated Interest in it, the universal signing. MA. CHAIRMAN: 4.( d)(1) -the Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister in Estimates last year indicated that the department was putting into place a new psychologist, to use her words, "to round out the team so that we now have a full complement that can assess the deaf children across 3248

Monday, 24 June, 1885 the province." That person has been in place for a whole year now. Can the Minister tell me whether all deaf children in Manitoba, students, whether they have all been asses sed over the past year? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, to date, with just one provincial psychologist, clearly at this point it's unlik ely that all the deaf children would been seen by her. But there is a team in place that does assessments and indicates which of the children need asses sment, and those would be the ones that she would be working on initially.

Now I think when she gets through those, what you might call the high- need students first, that have been identif ed specifically as needing this, that it probably would be integrated into the team assessment approach for all students, but initially she will be working through the hig h-need students that have been identified through the assessment J1rogram. MR. C. MANNESS: Can the Minister indicate whether the staff complement has changed at all within this branch? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, we have one more off-campus teacher for the junior high.

A numb er of the programs are now being taught not just at the School for the Deaf, but in our off-campus we have re sidential programs and off-campus programs, and we have one additional junior high teacher for the increase in junior high population. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(dX1)- pass; 4.(dX2)- pass. 4.(

e) Child Care and Devel opment:

(1) Salaries - the Member for Morris. MR. C. MA NNE SS: Could the Mini ster tell me specifically what other appropriations are included within this, I will call it a branch, outside of those that we have considered already within the major area of public school support, Item No. 3, which also did have some major spending directed towards the support of children in need? HON. M. HEMPHI LL: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, this department actually covers all of the special needs area except the grants; like when we were under the funding, we dealt with the funding in special needs. This is the branch that delivers the program.

So all of the programs related to clinical supp ort services, the clincians that we have that are available to school divisions, the di agnostic suppo rt centre, the early identification program that we introduced last year, is funded through the grant program but the program is delivered through this program section. And our services for our multihandi capped, the programs we were talking about going into for multihand icapped children, is being del ivered through here.

We have a pilot project that we are instituting this year, which is a special program for severely hyperactive children, where we are working with the parents and the MACLD organization to try and identify a program for those children; and our programs for visually and hearing imp ai red chi ldren, the ones tha t we are developing for the blind and hearing handicapped - hearing impaired - I think I have listed, and the low incidence and the high incidence programs are funded through the government support program, but the work with the people in the field to deliver the programs is deliv ered through Child Care and Development Services Branch.

MR. C. MANNESS: I am still having some difficulty distinguishing the difference. The Minister says that the grants are in support of the program. To me the grants are directed towards those profe ssionals, or those clinicians, or those people who are offering the service out in the field. Is the Minister saying that this appropriation is to those individuals not in the field, but who are devising the programs? I am having difficulty discerning the difference. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Well, if I can try and make it fairly easily , on the financing side, all that they are really involved with is the formulas for calculation of support for the students under the various programs - what is high incidence, what is low incidence, what is special need category - and it is simply a funding as it covers all the grants in the education system; and all they do is determine the criteria and what money they are entitled to, and the money goes out to school divisions for those programs.

But the program development and support services side for child care and development is the one that works with school divisions in developing the programs. You've got two parts of it. You have the grant that is going out and then you have the programs that the grant relates to, that the grant pays for and programmed to that child care services, develops, works with the people in the field , and monitors and oversees, and in some cases deliv ers the special needs programs.

Some of them are deliv ered by the school division, and we work with them; some of them are initiated and del ivered by us; and some of them are co-operative programs. I mentioned the one on the hyperactive children; that's a program between the Department of Education and MACLD and the parents as a co­ operative program. The early identification program is one that we announced last year and we have worked out what they will do with the funding. See, they get the mone y, and then the question is what are they going to do with it.

So we work with school divisions after they have been provided the grant to help them understand or make decisions on how to spend the funding for early identification; in some cases preparation of materials, and in some cases it's training of teachers, and in some cases it's diagnosis of an assessment of children. The clinicians that we have, some of them are field pla ced where the school div ision has them as emplo yees, and some of them are still being made available through the Department of Education so that they actually are emp loyed by the Department of Education and made available to the field.

So I think probably maybe that explains the difference. MR. C. MANNESS: We ll, I suppose it does in part. I will use two examples and the Minister can tell me 3249

Monday, 24 June, 1985 whether I understand her answer or not. For instance, a special co-ordinator for a school division would be supported, I take it, by the basic grant structure that comes down, but an individual who would come into our school division, or any school division, and assess the capabilities of a pre-schooler for instance, might be then somebody who was sup ported by the Department of Educat ion? Would tha t be a fair example? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: If I can give you some things under each category, under Grants, you would have clinicians and co-ordinators; high incidence support and low incidence support is simply grants. Under the branch, we also have clinicians, as I mentioned before; we have consultants; we have vision and hearing impaired services. Special materials services comes under this branch, and we are producing braille and materials; in fact, I believe we are one of the leading provinces in the country in the production of braille, audio books and large print books for the visually impaired and blind.

Then some of the other programs that I mentioned. like early identification and hyperactive children and the one for the multihandicapped children, is managed under the Department of Education. MR. C. MANNESS: The Minister talks about the numbers or, at least, I would like to ask specifically how many people are then included under this branch. HON. M. HEMPHILL: If you include the clinicians that are actually working in the field but are emp loyed through us, it would be 150 in this branch -15 -I'm sorry -15. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister uses the word "clinicia ns." I have had a lot of correspondence over the past year from the southeast area, and I think there is a better term with respect to the under support of the number of clinicians that they feel that they could eligibly have. I ask the Minister why in fact that particular area of the province does not have the full complement of clinicians as guaranteed. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, first of all the school division is entitled to a grant for a clinician staff year in that area, and I think they know that.

The difference is or the problem is, that when we have the clinicians emp loyed by the Department of Education, we pay their full salary; and when the school division does the hiring, the y get a grant and the grant may not always cover the full salary of the clinician. So definitely you can understand that school divisions would prefer to have their clinician services coming from the Department of Education. However, we are not increasing our clinician numbers in the branch.

We are, in fact, and have been for a year or so, looking at the possibility of moving them over into the field since the main reason for taking them on was not that we wanted to continue to provide these services but it was for northern, remote and rural areas who maybe didn't have the professional staff or didn't feel they had the ability right then to take on a a highly trained specialist of that kind, and the y preferred it to be done through the department.

So it was to make sure that the clinician services were available sort of throughout the province and that they had sort of resources to turn to that the department took it on. What they did was give them the choice. They said you can hire yourself, or you can have the clinician services through the Department of Education. That option is still there; they can hire themselves, but we have no increased staff years and we are not increasing the clinician numbers that we are making available through the Department of Education because we want to move away from that.

We are going to very slowly over the period of the next few years, have the school divisions take over the responsibility for the clinician services so that the Department of Education isn't involved in that. lt will take a period of time, and we are not pushing them, but we don't want to add to the numbers that we presently have. So they are not precluded and they can get the grant if they want to hire. I understand why they prefer the department to offer the services, but as I said it's an area that we are getting out of, not that we are going into. We did suggest to Dr.

Nicholls and to school divisions that when we made the transition and the changeover, we would have to deal with the issue of the difference in funding between the grant that goes out to school divisions and the fund level that is covered by the Department of Education when they have the person on staff because we can't expect school divisions to take it over if they are going to be in a disadvantaged position. MR. C. MANNESS: Well, Mr. Chairman, the letter in front of me dated March 29, 1985, under the letterhead of the Hanover School Division, a letter directed to Mr.

John Dyck indicates that the formula put in place by somebody, by some program, guaranteed sup port or guaranteed 19 eligible units within that whole region of school divisions, and up to this point - pardon me, 13 - I stand corrected; it's 13 - and yet to thi