Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 59A (33rd Legislature, 2nd Session)

33-2-59a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 1 June, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading anf! Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . . . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. A. MACKLING introduced, by leave, Bill No. 50,

An Act to amend The Consumer Protection Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la protection du consommateur. HON. E. KOSTYRA introduced, by leave, Bill No. 51, The Statute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act, 1987, Loi de 1987 modifiant la legislation relative a la flscalite (Recommended by His Honour, the Lieutenant Governor); and, by leave, Bill No. 52,

An Act to Amend The Energy Rate Stabilization Act, Loi mod ifiant la

Loi sur la stabilisation des emprunts d'Hydro-Manitoba a l'etranger (Recommended by His Honour, the Lieutenant-Governor); and, by leave, Bill No. 53, The Oil and Gas Production Tax Act, Loi de la taxe sur la production de petrole et de gaz (Recommended by His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor). INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have 8 students from Grade 11 from the Somerset Collegiate, under the direction of Mr. George Adams.

The school is located In the constituency of the Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. We have 42 students and 10 parents of students '3rades 2 to 4 from the Happy Thought School, under the direction of Miss 0 . Machnee . The school is located in the constituency of Jhe Honourable Member for Gimli, the Minister of Municipal Affairs . 1We have 20 students from .Grades 5 and 6 from the Earl Grey School, under the direction of Mr. Mel Hanna. The ·school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Community Services.

And we have 20 students from the Red River Community College, an exchange group from Montreal, under the direction of Mr. Jim Timlick. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Inkster. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Meech Lake Accord - tabling of amendment MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Premier.

Tomorrow the Premier will be joining his other fellow First Ministers at a meeting in Ottawa to put the finishing touches, presumably , on the final wording for the constitutional amendment that will be arrived at to involve Quebec in the Constitution. I understand from the weekend that the Premier has indicated that he has concerns about the wording of some aspects of that agreement, particularly the wording limiting federal spending power and authority .

I wonder if the Premier could indicate, given that it has been said that he is going to be presenting an amendment to that section, if the Premier could table the amendment as to the proposed wording change that he is going to present to that meeting tomorrow. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I would like to, again, reaffirm the position that I took immediately upon my return April 30 from Meech Lake in which I indicated that the principles of Meech Lake were acceptable to us, but that the wording was a matter of concern to ensure there'd be precision.

I do not like the suggestions we hear from some quarters that even If the wording is not clear we can leave it to the courts. The courts are the last place that I'd like to leave wording or intention to. I would sooner that we do the job properly, Madam Speaker, even If it takes a little longer, so that insofar as the spending power provision, I would like to see the Prime Minister tomorrow propose that the spending power relate to that program, as enacted by the Parliament of Canada.

I don't want to see the definition of the national objectives being defined by 10 individual provinces or the courts; I would like to see the Federal Government define the national objectives when such a program is implemented. I believe that is very, very important . I am worried, Madam Speaker, that we not leave the wording so imprecise that future generations will be burdened with uncertainty, and the lawyers of this . country will make a fortune in attempting to:·obfaln

interpretations. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, the ·Premier 's statement is very reminiscent of statements that were made by former Premier Lyon, as I recall, in the whole constitutional discussions some years ago. My question for the Premier is: Given that he wants to have precise and clear wording on that

section to do with federal spending powers - and I presume that he has that precise and c.lear wording worked out by his officials - I wonder if he would consider tabling that so that all Manitobans and members on this side of the House would be aware of what that wording is that he is proposing at tomorrow's meeting. HON. H. PAWLEY: The wording is along the lines that I've indicated . It's tomorrow, Madam Speaker, that the 2560 G

Monday, 1 June, 1987 discussions and negotiations do take place. I'm attempting probably to be much more open -than is in fact the case anywhere else in the country, insofar as indicating clearly our position. This position has already been advanced by officials of the Province of Manitoba, including some other areas that I believe must be more clearly defined and protected, including the aboriginal rights, . in' which there' have been some _very serious legai opinions that I don't believe we can shrug off, that require,µs to ensure that the protection 9f aboriginal rights riot be affected .

And, ·as well, there are some further concerns arising from proposals In the ias.t couple of dayl? from the Province ot Quebec - change in wording ttiat they're proposing vis-a-vis "the distinctive society." MR. G. FILMON: Given that nation-building arid consfitutio~ amending Should not take place in secret, wiil the Ptimiier then put forward ttie precise Wordirig that he intends to put forward at tomorrow's meeting of First" Ministers so that ali Mariitobans will know and understand Manitoba's position on this important issue? MADAM Sl'EAKER: The question is repetitious .

The Honourable Leader of the Oppositidh . _.R. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I wonder if the Premier could indicate why he is unwilling to put forward the precise wording if, indeed, that wording is going tb be put forward by his delegation tomorrow. HON. H. PAWLEY: i beiieve i did put forward the precise wording just a few mome.nts ago in that program , as enaded by _ the. Parliament of Cl!lnada. . . Madam Speaker, let me just talk about openness : I'll be urging tomqrrow that there be public hearings across Canada, not just in the Province of Ma11itoba, so there cari be a proper discussion .

There can be adequate submissions by groups and individuals throughout Canada; riot just in the Pi'ovlnpe of Manitoba . I find it unfortunate, Madam . Speaker, that a(this ~int it. appears the oniy hearings thaf wiil take place wiii be right here iri Manitoba arid. nowhere else. MADAM Sl'EAltER: The Honourable Leader of the Oppositloh . . . 111,t G. FILIMO!if: ~adam SpeaRer, 1 am delighted that the R,~emier has adopted the position that we forced upon him ... MADA'i'i SPEAKER: . .· . with a question. MR. G. i:ia.MOij: . . . during the French language debate some years ago. .

Madam Spe·aker, the Premier has indicated - (lnterjectiori)- MADAM SHAKIER: Order please . The Honourable Leader .of the Opposition with a question . MR. G. Fil.MON: The Premier has indicated that he is willing to share the precise wording of Manitoba's amendment, I wonder if he's able to table It then at this particular lime. 2561 HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, the wording is already recorded for Hansard; and let me just return to the question of public hearings. This government did not have public hearings forced upon it.

The Attorney -General and myself very early, contrary to the rewriting of history that honourable members would like to draw, supported public hearings from 1984 right on .. . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Ans_wei"!! to questions stiouid deal with the matter . raised and not provoke debate·. Biil No. 47 - free vote in caucus MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition with a question . MR. G. FILMON: Yes, Madam Speaker, on another matter.

On Friday, Bili 47, The Human Rights COde, was introduced ih this Legislature and, given, Madam Speaker, that those amendments to our human rights legislation in this province, particularly those that involve , the so~called gay rights amendment, are matters tha( involve matters of reiigious and morai principle, will the Premier be allowing a free vote in his caucus on that particular matter ·when it comes to a vote in the Legislature? HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, that's not an appropriate question as to what the Opposition caucus decides, or what the government caucus determines . MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the Premier indicating that it has not yet been decided whether or not members of the government will have a free vote oh Bill 471 HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, it is a government bill ano has been dealt with as all other government bills .. it does not warrant a particular discussion as to wh~ther ·or not government caucus .or the Opposition caucus, it's a matter of internal discussion; but this is a government bill . Madam Speaker,.

I would · I.Ike to just remind the Leader of the Opposition, wheii he talke<I about public h~tings earUer, that there were no public hearings in 1981 when we dealt with the Coristitution as a whole when his former leader . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please . The Honou·rabie L«ader of the Opposition . MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, the Premier obviously doesn't recall, but I sat in on public hearings on· _those constitutional amendments in 1981. indeed, there were. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member ' have a question? Order please.

Monday, 1 June, 1987 Gay Rights amendment - religious organizations exempt from provisions MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition with a question . MR. G. FILMON: Yes, Madam Speaker, a second question. Over the weekend the Minister of Natural Resources has indicated that he favours an exemption for religious groups on the matter of the Gay Rights amendment. Is it the intention, Madam Speaker, of the government to exempt the Roman Catholic Church or other religious organizations from the provisions of the Gay Rights amendment in the Human Rights code? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker , that is a matter that the Minister introducing the legislation will be dealing with by way of discussion, by way of the debate in this Chamber . Bill No. 47 - additional amendments to acts re employee benefit plans MR. G. FILMON: Given that the spokesman for the gay community, also a provincial civil servant, has indicated that the legislation will enable his spouse to be covered by his employee benefit plans, will this require additional legislative amendments to either The Civil Service Act, The Pension Act, or any other provincial legislation? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please.

The Honourable Minister of Co-op Development. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker , as you are well aware and, as should be the Leader of the Opposition, when the Legislature has seized itself of an issue such as this by way of legislation, then questions which are addressed to that legislation during the question period are out of order. I may just take a moment to remind members opposite, because I know they don't always accept my word or my

interpretation on the rules on these matters, as to something that the Honourable Member for St. Norbert said on July 4, 1980, in this House, when speaking to the same issue . I would quote, Madam Speaker. It's page 5319 of Hansard. The Member for St.- Norbert: "Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I raise this matter. There seems to be a tendency in this direction of asking questions about bills that are before the Legislature. Mr. Speaker, I suggest that these kinds of questions are out of order. These bills are before the Legislature .

They are appointed for debate. · Questions and matters pertaining to them can be raised in that debate on second reading, in committee, etc ., Mr. Speaker, and I think they should be ruled out of order, Mr. Speaker ." They, in fact, were ruled out of order. Mr.

Speaker, several comments later, saying, "On that basis, I would have to rule the honourable member's question out of order." I think if it was good enough for the Honourable Opposition House Leader, when he was Government House Leader, to make that point, he should be making that point directly to his Leader when he is Opposition House Leader and we'd certainly reinforce it. 2562 MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition on the point of order. MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, clearly, if the Government House Leader had listened, I was asking about the government's intent to bring in other legislation as a result of comments made with respect to the ambit and the coverage of this gay rights amendment. I asked whether or not it would involve additional legislative amendments to The Civil Service Act, The Pension Act, or any other legislation. That has naught to do with the existing bill , but whether there would be an intention to bring in amendments to other legislation . SPEAKER'S RULING MADAM SPEAKER: Order please.

May I remind all members of Beauchesne Citation 359.(12), which says "Questions should not anticipate a debate scheduled for the day, but should be reserved for the debate ." I've been listening very carefully to the honourable member's question, and while they are on the general topic, they are not specifically within the parameter of that particular Beauchesne Citation. I do urge that all members watch for that citation very carefully. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, I thank you for that

interpretation and ruling. I would ask if the Premier would then respond to my question? HON. H. PAWLEY: So there is no misunderstanding and we can deal with the precise nature of the question, would the Leader of the Opposition repeat his question? Bill No. 47 - additional amendments to acts re employee benefit plans MR. G.

FILMON: Madam Speaker, given that the head of the gay rights movement, who also happens to be a provincial civil servant, has indicated that he expects now that his spouse will be covered by the legislation under Bill 47, I wonder if it is now the Intention of the government to bring in additional legislation to amend The Civil Service Act, The Pension Act, or any other provincial legislation 8$ a result of that provision. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General . HON. R. PENNER: The answer is no, Madam Speaker. Just to supplement that, we are not bound by anybody else's

interpretation of a bill, which has not yet been introduced for Second Reading or debated. If, during the course of that debate or committee hearing, points arise, then they will be dealt with at that time. Affirmative Action Target Groups - makeup of · MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina . MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission.

M,onday, 1 J1,1ne, 1937 A .number of job bulletins specify that "Affirmative Action Target Group members are encouraged to apply." My quesJion to the Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission is: What is currently the makeup of those Affirmative Action Target Groups? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for the Civil Service Commission . HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

They are the same as has existed for a number of years now and that which are contained in a Memorandem of Understanding between the government and the Government Employees ' Association, that being women, Native people , physically handicapped, and visible minorities. Affirmative Action Target Group - to include homosexual community MR. D. ORCHARD: With the passage of Bill 4 7, and its sexual orientation amendment, will the homosexual community become an Affirmative Action Target Group? MADAM SPEAKER: That question is hypothetical. MR. D. ORCHARD: Allow me to rephrase my question .

Given that the Affirmative Action Target Group separates out certain minorities in society for preferential hiring status, will the homosexual community become part of that? Will it be the government's policy to include the homosexual community as an Affirmative Action Target Group? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There are no plans by the government to change the present Affirmative Action policies of the government. Bill No. 47 - discussion with the Executive of the Union of Manitoba Municipalities MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur . MR. J. DOWNEY: I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs .

Will the Minister of Municipal Affairs discuss with the Union of Manitoba Municipalities and the-elected people . at the grassroots level Bill 47 and the addition of gay rights in that bill, Madam Speaker? MADAM . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HOt!i. J. BU(;KLA$.CHUK: The Executive of the. Union of Manitoba Municipalities, as well as any other group of Manitobans, will have the opportunity to speak on this bill at the appropriate time . MR. J.

DOWNEY: Will the Minister of Municipal Affa irs be discussing this bill and the sexual orientation portion of it at the municipal meetings which are being held very shortly, beginning next week, Madam Speaker? Will the Minister be explaining it to them and asking them for their support? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, Madam Speaker. During the seven or eight district meetings that will be held throughout the province within the next couple of weeks, I am prepared to discuss any legislation that this government has introduced in the past years or has under consideration at the present time. MR. J.

DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, I'm asking him if he will discuss with them and ask them what their position is and report back to this Legislature on this government's moral bankrupt issues. Meech Lake Accord - not sign unless free and open discussion MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker, ' my question is to the Premier. First of all, I'd like to congratulate him for taking the kind of statesmanship position that he is taking and encouraging all Canadians to debate Meech Lake.

In fact, if this agreement is indeed a valid one, it will withstand the test of time . ·i My question is: Will the First Minister agree . to not , sign the accord tomorrow unless there are provisions within it for free and open discussion throughout the 1 whole of this country? j MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. H. PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I will be certainly .~ putting forth that position tomorrow, that there should be public hearings across Canada by a committee of the Parliament of Canada.

My decision tomorrow , as a result of the. discussions that will take place, attempts to ensure more precise wording, would dictate whether or not I sign. Meech Lake Accord - some reference to aboriginal peoples MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Yes, a supplementary question , to the same Minister, Madam Speaker. Would the Premier tell us if he will insist tomorrow f that before he signs that there is some reference to the aboriginal peoples of this country? HO.N. H. PAWLEY:.

Madam Speaker, I must say this is an example where we do require the opportunity to '. thoroughly analyze , because certainly we've been · assured and then rea~red that aboriginal rights would · not be diminished . There now appears to be ~ considerable concern in that respect . I have asked my representatives at the official meeting , which took place : on Friday and Saturday, to suggest changes that could f provide protection as far as aboriginal rights are . concerned .

I intend to pursue that as well tomorrow ·' at the conference that will take place, and we'll have:. to await the response , Madam Speaker, I receive from . other First Ministers. I ;1 2$63

Monday, 1 June, 1987 Meech Lake Accord - insist phrase, "national objectives set by Parliament," be included MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Madam Speaker, my final supplementary to the Premier. . It was reported in the media that his phrase is, "national objectives set by Parliament," an objective certainly with which I can fully concur . Will he insist that that phrase be included in the Meech Lake accord before Manitoba becomes a signatory? " HON. H.

PAWLEY: Madam Speaker, I will be making, certainly as I indicated earlier, a proposal that the words be clearly outlined, national objectives in that program is enacted by Parliament. I am going to the conference tomorrow, Madam Speaker, not wishing to issue ultimatums or fixed pre conditions, but I'm hopeful, by way of persuasion and the weight of persuasion, we can obtain the kind of changes that we would want in the Province of Manitoba . I'd prefer, Madam Speaker, certainly not to be proceeding to Ottawa tomorrow with the issuance ~ of ultimatums .

Manitoba Small Business Growth Fund - establishment of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie . MR. E. CONNERY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Acting Minister of Business Development . A news service report of March 20 said that in cooperation with the Winnipeg Business Development Corporation the Manitoba Government will establish the Manitoba Small Business Growth Fund. Has this small business growth fund been established? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education . HON. J. STORIE: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I will take that question on behalf of the Minister, but I believe the Minister has already indicated on previous occasions that the terms and references dealing with a number .of initiatives announced in the Budget are under way and I expect announcements to be forthcoming . MR. E. CONNERY: Madam Speaker, this does raise a concern, to the same Minister . it raises a concern because on April 29, in a Swan River newspaper, the Minister of Natural Resources said that they ... MADAM SPEAKER: Order please .

May I remind the honourable member that reading extracts from newspapers as an opening to an Oral Question is an abuse of the Rules of the House. Manitoba Small BilsineH Growth Fund - is it only through NOP MLA's MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. E. CONNERY: Well, thank you, Madam Speaker. The Minister of Natural Resources has said to his community that the program is in place and those people wishing to participate should phone a Winnipeg phone number .

Madam Speaker, I did phone that Winnipeg phone number and I asked them if the program had been released and they said no, but that it was being released through the MLA 's. Is it now only the NOP MLA's who are announcing to their constituencies this program is now in place, or are they going to announce it for all of Manitobans, so they can all have an equal opportunity? That is in the Swan River newspaper of April 29, Madam Speaker. HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I don't know where the Member for Portage la Prairie has been.

The decision to proceed with small business bonds, a program to support small business in the province, was announced in the Throne Speech. The Minister responsible , Madam Speaker, has indicated that the details of the programming will be forthcoming and, as is normal in these kinds of situations, there will be sufficient and necessary public communications to make sure that everybody is informed .

I can assure the member that will not be solely at the discretion of MLA's on either side of the House, but will in fact be a public communications policy which includes information in newspapers and other public forums to make sure that Manitobans, and particularly those interested in creating opportunites, are aware of the particulars of that program. Manitoba Small Business Growth Fund - tabling of information re MR. E. CONNERY: Madam Speaker, he didn't know on my first question .

Will the Minister now assure us that tomorrow he will bring the details of this program to the House and explain it to the House or at least table it so that we all know? Madam Speaker, the program is out, the Deputy Miniter does't know, but other people do know. We want that program tabled in the House so that all business people in Manitoba have an opportunity for this program . HON. J. STORIE: Madam Speaker, I think I've indicated to the member that yes, in fact, the public will be informed by the usual means by which governments announce programs, provide information .

Madam Speaker, I can't comment on the particular conversation the member had on the phone; unfortunately, he didn 't phone me and make me party to it. I can indicate that this program , like any other government program, will be advertised and made public through the normal course of events , which includes press releases, which includes advertising in daily and weekly papers, which includes production of pamphlets, will include a whole range of means to get the message out across the province . It's the normal course of events .

And, no, Madam Speaker, I cannot say that I will bring the details of the program to the House tomorrow until those details are finalized, until there is a communications approach put in place by the department and the Minister responsible. MR. E. CONNERY: Madam Speaker, I would just ask the Minister if he would come across after the question 2564

Monday, 1 June, 1987 period and I'll show him where it says in this article, people wishing to participate to contact Ted George in Winnipeg at 1-944 ... MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. 1987 agriculture deficiency payment - federal-provincial sharing of MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden . MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Agriculture . · Madam Speaker, farm leaders met in Ottawa last week to talk about the agricultural trade situation and a 1987 deficiency payment.

We all know that the farm community has financial problems right now and they're going to need short-term support until the long-term problem of agricultural -trade is negotiated at the GATT level, Madam Speaker. The Premier, a couple of weeks ago , announced that he felt Western Canada needed a $2 billion deficiency payment. I would like to ask the Minister of Agriculture if he's been in discussion with officials of the Federal Government to talk about a federal-provincial sharing of the financing of the 1987 deficiency payment. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, this issue of sharing of deficiency payments was raised in August of 1986 at the federal-provincial Ministers' meeting in Vancouver on agriculture, wherein the Federal Government indicated that. first of all, there was no need for a payment. When they were finally convinced by provincial Ministers that the crisis in the grain industry was accelerating, they in fact indicated that they would hope Provincial Governments would in fact be shanghaied into paying for part of the support.

Madam Speaker, this type of a proposal that appears to have been supported by the Conservative Opposition here in this province, to say that provinces like Manitoba should in fact put out massive amounts of money to support a federal policy of offloading flies in the face of fairness in this country. This is precisely the area that we, as a government, have fought against in health care and education and we will continue to fight for fairness in terms of national programming of income support in this country. 1987 agriculture deficiency payment - Manitoba farmers allowed to participate MR. G.

FINDLAY: Madam Speaker, given that this Minister an.d his government have offloaded education costs on the municipalities and farmers of .Manitoba, will this Minister allow other provinces to participate in such a program so that Manitoba is no longer on a level playing field with the western farmers? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Could .thfl honourable member rephrase that question so that it's· within the Minister's jurisdiction. MR. G. FINDLAY: Madam Speaker, if other provinces in Western Canada participate in such a program, will this Minister allow Manitoba farmers to again be discriminated against? HON. J.

STORIE: Madam Speaker, I think my honourable friend, as usual, is confused about the .,,. offloading of costs in education and health care. It's provinces like Saskatchewan and Alberta who have been cutting into the provision of services for their rural si residents and residents of their provinces . It is not this government who has continually provided a consistent increase in budgetary support for the tamers, for all residents of Manitoba; and that's what we intend to continue to do, Madam Speaker. 1987 agriculture deficiency payment - method of payment MR. G.

FINDLAY: Given that if you participate financially in such a program, you will have the opportunity to determine the method of payment, :f Madam Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister what method of payment he proposes? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, first of all, I reject the assertion that we will be . . . Madam Speaker, the assumption in the member's question is that there will be a federal program on the condition that provinces · will have to now participate financially.

Madam Speaker, that would be a total abrogation of federal responsibility ·· to agriculture in this country and we reject that \ assertion. 'l Madam Speaker, the Premier of this province at the ~ Humboldt Conference clearly articulated our preference in terms of the payment of any funds, that they should -~. be targeted, that there should be a cap. They really · should be in fine with farm income, not commodity income. Madam Speaker, that position is supported in documentation presented by the Government of : Saskatchewan, as well, at that meeting. · AIDS - Dr.

Fast aware of infected prostitutes - results of discussion MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Health. In question period on Friday, the Minister of Health indicated that he was going to consult and discuss with" Dr. Fast regarding the prostitutes with AIDS who werff'. still working the s,treets. What were the results of these · discussions? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Yes. Madam Speaker. I have some information for the House. , " There was a meeting with Dr.

Fast, and the Chief of Police, and legal and health officials of the city to discu5$ prostitutes and AIDS on April 6, 1987. ' ·2565

Monday, 1 June, 1987 At that time, there was a name given of a female prostitute apparently who had been infected . Now that person was tested and proved negative. Then you remember last week, there were allegations of a male and a female prostitute who were operating without any interference from anyone and we could never get the names. Finally, on the 29th, which was last Friday - (Interjection}- I'll write you a letter. Then, on Friday, May 29, while we were discussing this, there was a meeting with Dr.

Fast also and the icily officials, and at that time, for the first time, identified the male and the female, supposedly prostitutes . The female was the same one who had been declared negative earlier in March. The male, for the first time , realized that they were referring, that the city was referring, to somebody, a youngster who had been at the Remand Centre; that there is no proof, no indication that he engaged as a prostitute at all. Immediately, I instructed Dr. Fast and Dr. MacDonald to make sure that they talk to the youngster, and he has been placed on 24-hour surveillance for the time being .

He had been on eight hours and nine hours - there had been discussion , there had been no proof, no indication that he had been engaged in prostitution, although he's had friends who concerned us, he had one friend especially. That is being looked at at this time , and he's under 24-hour supervision and surveillance. Male prostitute denied admission to Seven Oaks Hospital MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Was this male prostitute that you're referring to recently denied admission to Seven Oaks Hospital and, as a result, provided accommodation by this Provincial Government previous to this week? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please.

It is the duty of a member to ascertain the truth of any statement before they bring it to the attention of the House. HON. L. DESJARDINS: First of all, Madam Speaker, I did not refer to him as a prostitute. I took the trouble to tell you that as far as we were concerned he was not a prostitute . If you're talking about the same individual, I have no indication that he was refused admittance to any hospitals.

I can tell my honourable friend - and we talked about legislation also - that at no time did I say that we could put people in jail, at no time, and it was a direct question of my same honourable friend who referred to The Public Health Act, not to the Criminal Code. There is nothing in the Criminal Code that anybody , including the Minister of Health, can do to put people in jail. The Public Health Act talked about detaining people for treatment, for a maximum, a quarantine.

And I said, yes, under that act we can, for a short period of time, detain people if there 's any doubt or any danger, and that we could treat them and so on. I also stated that the City of Winnipeg Medical Officer had exactly the same rights as we did, under the same act. I also said that this act was brought in long before anybody knew anything about AIDS, and it was a different situation , where you were detaining people that you can cure, people with communicable diseases that you can have by touching, breathing or coughing and so on, and this is not the case with AIDS.

The best information that we have is that this is - (Interjection)- Well, if you don't want the information , I can very easily sit down and not give you this information. I thought it was important enough that you should know.- (Interjection)- Well, all right, then that's fine with me. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Male juvenile under previous supervision MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East. MRS. 8. MITCHELSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the same Minister .

Was this juvenile male then, that the Minister has referred to, who he says has been put on 24-hour supervision as of Friday, when he was made aware - I believe that the Minister in his answer, just previously, indicated that that same juvenile had been under surveillance or some supervision for eight-hour periods previous to that, indicates to me somehow that the Department of Health was aware, previous to Friday, that this juvenile was an AIDS carrier and still out on the loose, so to speak .

Was the province providing supervision, or did they provide a room in this city for this male juvenile previous to this Friday because he couldn't receive accommodation elsewhere? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Certainly we were aware of this youngster, but the point is that it was only Friday that the name was given to us that we were told that this is the youngster that they were accusing of being a prostitute, and that 's the difference. It was only then and, yes, he was under supervision. I want to make it quite clear, Madam Speaker, that we do not intend to put everybody in jail.

We haven't got the right, and there's something that should be done, then they should change the Criminal Code. We have a situation now of people, who might be negative, can transmit the virus. We have people where it is just as easy to contact the virus from somebody who has the virus than it is from somebody who has AIDS. If you think we're in the business of trying to -protect those who want to be promiscuous by making darn sure that all ·the prostitutes who are running around are safe, that is not our job.

This is a different contagious disease that you get through sex; and we say to the people, all right, have a steady, sure partner , or take your precautions, but it is your responsibility . We are not intending to put . . . Well, we're talking about deinstltutionalizing, I'm darned sure we're not going to put everybody who is suspected of having AIDS in an institution. The only way that we can protect the people, as I've said many times, is not through panic. It is through proper education, and they must take -(Interjection) ! beg your pardon? 2566

Monday, 1 .,lune, 1987 l MR. D. ORCHARD: Why don 't you make it reportable? liON. L. DESJARDINS: It is reportable. What are you going to do once you know that these people have the contact? You inform the people and the best way, the safest way, is not to be promiscuous and to protect yourself . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Question period is not a time for debate. Male juvenile under supervision - for what reason MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River East with a supplementary question . MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Thank you, Madam Speaker, with a final supplementary to the Minister.

For what reason was this juvenile under supervision by the province prior to Friday , on May 29, and under whose author ity? HON. L. DESJARDINS: It was discussions between the Departmen _t of Community Affairs and our Dr. Fast . It was while he was detained that they found out that he tested ·positive , and he was a youngster and they wanted to make sure that he was under some kind of a program . It was only on Friday that we heard that this was the one; nobody had been given that name, nobody had accused him of being a prostitute before that .

It was on Friday that we found out it was the same one that everyone was trying to find out that the councillor had given a name , and then it was I who instructed our staff to make sure that until this thing was clear , until we made sure , that he shou.ld be under surveillance for 24 hours. MRS. B. MITCHELSON : Can the Minister tell me, plainly and simply , why was he under supervision prior to Friday and how was he under supervision when you say you didn't know his name, or you didn 't know why was he under supervision? HON. L .. DESJARDINS: What the hell do you think I've been doing?

MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, orc~er please . As the Minister well knows, he's not to use unparliamentary language . Would he please withdraw that remark? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I withdraw .that statement. What in the name of heaven do you want me to do? There was a youngster in detention; they found out that he was positive ; they did what they should do, what they will continue to. do. They try to work with him, consult with him, and have a program where he would be supe rvised , and we wo~ld do the same thing, period. Everybody knew ; that was reported in the news media months ago.

On Friday , last Friday , it was determined, when we were given the name , that lo and behold, that youngster was the one who was supposed to be a prostitute, a 2$67 male prostitute. That was something new that we didn 't · l have before. All right , immediately I instructed staff , when I was given this information, to make sure that he was under surveillance for 24 hours until we ~ straighten this thing out. Staff then reported to me that ~ there was no indication, no proof , that that person was · J a prostitute.

In other words, there were rumours and , ·ij as far as we were concerned, there were false j accusations . That is the difference between what we did, what we ordered to do for the weekend, and what had been done before . There are other people who are known to have this disl;lase; they are not under surveillance for 24 hours a day. We are working with them and they · are not all in institutions, and they won't be, and they won't be in jail. That is the difrerence .

If somebody makes an accustion, as I said to my honourable friend IJ3st we.ek , that a certain person is a prostitute and purposely trying to go out to contaminate people - and if you remember that was the statement - we said that then we would take advantage of The Public Health Act to stop them for ' awhile , and then to make sure that this is correct, and that 's what we did. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan . MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I would like to ask leave to make a non-political statement.

MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT MADAM SPEAKER: . The Honourable Member for Kildonan . MR. M. DOLIN: Thank you . Yesterday at the Highlander Rink and across North . Amer ica there was a fund-raising event for Children 's ' \ Pediatric Research, the Children's Miracle Telethon . I • had the honour and pleasure to attend and be a volunteer , along with the Member for River Heights , and the Member for River East.

I think we would all like to join in congratulating the · success for the many volunteers and the entertainers : who raised, my understanding is, almost $600 ,000 this ·,'. year in pledges, which is almost doub le the $324 ,000 · they raised last year. I think they should all be congratulated and I would like everyone in this ~ ouse to go on record to thank .' these many hundreds ' of volunteers and entertainers who gave of themselves, their time and their energy . for this very worthy cause. i ORDERS OF THE DAY MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government i House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Monday, 1 June, 1987 I believe there is a disposition on the part of members to forego Private Members ' Hour today; by leave, and continue on with the consideration of Estimates. MADAM SPEAKER: Is that agreed? (Agreed) HON. J. COWAN: I therefore move, Madam Speaker, seconded by the Minister of Health, that Madam Speaker do leave the Chair and the House now resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented , nd carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation; and the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet in the Chair for the Department of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - ENVIRONMENT AND WORKPLACE SAFETY AND HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: Committee, please come to order . When we adjourned the other day, I think we were on Environmental Management, 2.(a)(1) and 2.(a)(2).

Are there any further discussions on those two items or are you prepared to pass? The Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. E. CONNERY: I was reading the Minister's statement and he said, "My department will be heading the province 's 10-year, $10 million urban renewal program for the Red and Assiniboine Rivers." Could he elaborate a little bit on how far down the rivers is it? Is it the total length of the river in Manitoba, within . the cities or, if it is just within cities , what cities? Could we get an elaboration on it? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister . HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman .

I have to make sure there is no misunderstanding . When the Member for Portage says, "The Minister's statement says . .. ," the member means that my statement last year, I believe, stated that I said that. Since then, I no longer have the responsibility for that dossier. On the other hand, of course, our department would be certainly very closely involved . The Minister of Natural Resources, the Minister responsible for that dossier, on the other hand, as I say - and I want to repeat - we would be of course very much involved as part of that.

As far as answering, in terms of the details, the member would have to ask the Minister of Natural Resources as to where we've progressed since that time. I would suspect - and maybe I shouldn't even risk saying I would suspect - that discussions are still ongoing in terms of finalizing the specifics of the program. There will be some expenditures in the course of this year, but I don't think that at this point in time I coul6 say, nor could he probably, how far upstream or downstream it will cover.

On the other hand, we do want to start with the river here , in the Assiniboine and the Red here in Winnipeg, but of course the program is intended to cover much beyond that . I think I'd stated last year already, and the intent hasn't changed. MR. E. CONNERY: Is the intent then for riverbank clean-up or is it going to be a combination of riverbank clean -up and sewage, of those kinds of problems? HON. G. LECUYER: It's meant to address the multiple potential usage of water, but first and foremost, to address water quality . MR. E. CONNERY: Mr. Chairman , I can accept better if it's work on water quality.

I've said in other speeches and at other times that I would be very concerned if we were devoting any significant amount of money to riverbank clean-up . That was more of an aesthetic thing , to beautify the riverbanks when we have significant other problems in the environment and in natural resources in other areas, such as drainage and whatever . There are many more important aspects that we need to examine. So if it is for chemical clean-up , I can accept it. Would one of the items be the quality of water leaving Winnipeg and going to Selkirk? Would that be the kind of investigation? HON. G.

LECUYER: Before I address that last part of the commentary, I revert to the first part of the member's comments. Like him, I would also be concerned if it was to be only riverbanks; but unlike him, I would be concerned if that wouldn't be included . I think you can only deal or improve riverbank conditions if you have water that's of a quality .that.is such that it's worth even coming close to the wa1er bank.

But aside from that, deterioration of the water bank can significantly destroy, if the banks themselves .are in such a condition that you could lose soil, you could lose trees and you could cause erosion and flooding , etc., so that we have to be concerned about that issue. But having said that, of course we want to address the quality of the water, not from a purely chemical standpoint but from all aspects of that quality, chemical included, waste water. It would, of course, include addressing the quality of the water of the Red downstream from Winnipeg; that would be part of it. MR. E.

CONNERY: One of the others that was in - and I've seen it several places - regulations governing livestock production and operative, both the technical and land use. It seems to be rising or raising its head in several areas . Is there a targeting at the livestock industry or what are they doing in looking at, in this particular way? HON. G. LECUYER: I think we addressed that question last week. Perhaps the member wasn't here at the time . Certainly we addressed it last year.

It's an issue - too bad for the member who perhaps wasn't here last week when we were talking about that particular issue - that came up a number of times while we were in the process of consultation on The Environment Act. 2568

Monday, 1 June; 1987 I think it's fairly well known in the broader community out there that this department has a process whereby we do carry out extensive consultation before any changes occur in regulations . But having said that, we also stated that the new Environment Act, as such, did not impact on farming operations per se. Much of that is currently either covered under existing legislation or other acts, or existing regulations, and those all will be rolled ove-r under the new act .

That is not to say that in time we will not wish to review any of the existing regulations, and I explained that the other day; that some regulations need • to be reviewed. .In fact every regulation needs to be reviewed after a number of years, otherwise it becomes outdated. The way you carry on an activity that's covered by regulation now versus the way it's going to be done 10 years from now would impose, in some cases, impossible requirements if we did not review regulations.

So we do that in accordance with our resources;we do it if we were to hear, ·for instance, a great deal of complaints about a specific regulation. We might up it in ttie Order Where 'it sits amongst our regulations, but generally if that were not to occur,it would occur automatically anyway because it's part of a cycle wherein we would review the regulations.

But having said that, I want to assure the member that they would fit - any regulation we might review - would fit as part of that overall consultation process, wherein anybody who feels that they might be impacted, either positively or negatively by the proposed change, would have an opportunity to comment and to give us the benefit of his opinion in terms of what it should be or should not be. MR. E.

CONNERY: Well, I guess all the way through, having received The Environment Act and things that are being said as far as the environment goes, ·that my concern is, is business, is the farming community and so forth going to be impacted ridiculously, and I have some real reservations that this cou'ld happen . We saw what hiippened with The Water Rights Act and some of the regulations that are in place with it. So the regulations can be very severe and make it almost impossibie tor business or farming communities to come to Manitoba or to stay in Manitoba, so I do want to register that concern with the ·Minister.

We want to be very careful what we're doing, and sure, we want to protect the environment; I can't disagree with that. But we get SOJTle environmentalists that get carried aw'ay at just about any little thing and, as the Minister says, regulations can change from year to year. So I guess I'm concerned about the livestock industry and of somebody moving out to the country who . wants · country living and then all _ of a 'Sudden decides they've built somewhere too close to a feedlot operation of some kind and doesn't like the ·smell.

Maybe the Minister should be investigating a right-to farm legislation also to protect the farmers, that make sure that people don't carry out ridiculous concerns . It's like people building next to an airport. The airport's been there for 20 years and they build next to it and then tt\ey're unhappy about the noise. You know, these things happen. HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Chairman, I addressed those very same . Concerns and ·questions raised by the Member for Virden last week, and I can assure the member that the Changes proposed to the act do not create that kind of a concern.

I do not, having said that, wish to be interpreted as saying that whatever goes on out there doesn't impose any concern environmentally at all. There are of course existing land use conflicts and there will continue to be.

A member just gave an example of one, and of course though our mechanisms propose to try and address some of those and, hopefully, mechanisms in place will help prevent others from occurring, I think that people have found out in time thatthe wide open spaces, the greater amount perhaps of land, Or the fact that they might be a little further away from their neighbours, to be out in the open air, etc., is not perhaps always what it is made to be, that there are indeed some benefits, but there are also some problems associated with that.

And indeed, of course, if you want to place yourself next to an airport, you have to expect that you will have some noise . In the same manner, if you want to build a community, municipalities have a role to play in authorizing · those developments . Of course, you have to have someone who is prepared to do it and he has to be authorized by the municipality to do it.

And when problems arise, of course, we can say, well, just a minute here, maybe you've made a wrong choice; and you have to now accept that some of those problems that are associated with the activities that you chose to install yourself beside will have to go on. Now, that its not to say that if it is possible to improve on the noise that an airport creates or odours that a farming operation creates, if there's a way of improving upon those, that we shouldn't look at that either.

I suppose it is fair to say that because environmental concerns have been raised in the past, significant improvements were put in place in regard to many operations, and hopefully that will continue down the road, that we'll find new approaches. In some cases it's very, very simple measures that can be put in place and in other instances it's costly technology; and of ,, course common sense has to be used in that respect as well. MR. E.

CONNERY: Is the Minister aware of the problem .· we have at Portage with the .lagoon and the odour from ,' it and, if he is, is he working with the Minister of : Municipal Affairs to come to a resolvement of the .i problem that we have. in Portage? B HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Chairman, ·I can go into that if the member wants, but I think we discussed that one at length last yearf MR. E. CONNERY: I hope that there is some ongoing · encouragement to cdfne to a resolve on it because it is a pretty tough situation in Portage when you get . south and southeast winds .

Everybody knows where Portage is when they travel down the Trans-Canada , Highway. HON. G. LECUYER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, . that is true. We have problems , similar problems right here in thei City of Winnipeg. Our sewage treatment plants, noi ·matter even' if you have the most modern technology ··25&9 I 1 l I

Monday, 1 June, 1987 in place, will sometimes provide whiffs of something we'd rather not smell . Not me - as I said before, I don't have that probem. My critic knows about that because it is already on the record, I don't smell. So I don't have a problem in that regard although, on the other hand, 99 percent of the people do. But the member for Niakwa invariably raises the question of some of the less rosy smelling operations I have in my own constituency. We have to try to do what we can to avoid that, but it's not always easy to do.

Now regarding Portage La Prairie, the member knows that there are problems with the landfill, and there are questions in regard to th~ lagoon. There's a feasibility study that is going on in Portage La Prairie and it's almost completed. Pretty soon we should know about the direction and the timing in which the changes or recommendations will go in regard to Portage La Prairie but I haven't got that in hand yet. It's ongoing and it's taking place at this point in time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I was very disappointed when the Minister advised that he doesn't have the responsibility of the riverbank clean-up any more. I did hear him say that he doesn't have the responsibility of the riverbank clean-up . . HON. G. LECUYER: The River Renewal Program. MR. A. KOVNATS: Well, I'm awfully sorry that he had to relate that to us because that's just another responsibility that has been taken away from the Minister inasmuch as there 's Worker's Compensation, this other one, and - well, we won't dwell on it.

Before I proceed, I just want to ask the Minister, when we're talking the very last item, the Worker Advisor Office - and this is just for clarification before we proceed - the Worker Advisor Office, that's the worker advisors who advise the people who are having problems with Workers Compensation? HON. G. LECUYER: That is correct. MR. A. KOVNATS: Fair enough - then we will discuss that later, because I thought that everything had been taken away and now I see that there are still some responsibilities for Workers Compensation. I was going to ask some questions on it later. HON. G.

LECUYER: Yes, I won't touch on that. I just want to clarify that, yes indeed, and repeat that, yes, that is still within my responsibility; but also to add that in terms of the River Renewal Program, I think I should perhaps clarify that, of the time we were talking about this last year, that no Minister had been assigned that particular responsibility at that time. We were at the preliminary discussions , and the Minister of the Environment, I think just assumed the responsibility.

An interdepartmental committee had been formed and I had assumed that perhaps I would have that responsibility, but following the interdepartmental committee's report, eventually the Premier assigned the responsibility to the Minister responsible for Natural Resources . The interdepartmental committee will continue . As I said before, my department will be very much indeed involved as part of that activity . MR. A.

KOVNATS: Not to prolong the debate on this, I thought the Minister was doing a heck of a good job inasmuch as I saw his picture in the paper with wading boots in the Seine River and picking up the garbage that comes down the Seine, and I thought, when it comes to picking up garbage and things of that nature, he was doing an awfully good job and I'm just sorry that they had to find another Minister to replace him. I'd like to proceed a little bit fu.rther.

When we talk about safety in the workplace, I think this department, the Environmental Management Department, prevents environmental health hazards in places where people live, work or engage in their leisure time . I'd like to bring to the Minister's attention, and maybe we talked about it last year, but I'd like to extend on what we discussed last year and I'd like to discuss about some of the hazards that the police go through.

Not just the hazards of fighting criminals who carry weapons, but some of the hazards that the police have to encounter in working in a healthy workplace, inasmuch as they are going to encounter some criminals with diseases that could cause permanent damage - particularly, we make reference to AIDS. I am not saying that all criminals have AIDS, but I think that we have to be aware that the police department does have to go into areas where they do have that problem and I think that there has to be some protection for the police force.

I know that the Minister has passed legislation where people do not have to work in an unsafe workplace. I was wondering whether any direction has been given to the police department that they do not have to answer calls, or work in a workplace where there's a danger of coming into contact with AIDS. I think that I would go on a little bit further and let the Minister answer altogether . Now, we made reference to the police department, and let's make reference to the fire department

whereas we have some dangers of the fire department going into areas where there are chemical reactions and actions of fire and chemicals that are cancer-causing which we never thought of years back. I don't know what precautions were taken to protect these people when they first joined the fire department. I lost a very good friend from cancer, who was with the fire department, just in the last couple of years; and I don't know whether there's been any corrective measures or whether in fact the fire department or the firemen have a choice of going into an area ·where there's a fire.

I know it's a very dangerous job, but do they have any protection in going into an area that they're not sure of what dangers other than fire are in those areas? Can they just refuse to go into these particular locations . I had suggested to the Minister - I guess it was just last year - if you're going into places where chemicals are used and are coming by pipes, that the pipes be colour coded. That was not thought to be too practical, but I still think It's kind of practical so that firemen going in to fight a fire would have a better idea of what type of chemicals and reactions they have to fight.

I think that we would go just a little bit further when it comes to nurses that are working in hospitals. The 2570

Monday, 1 June, 1987 Minister made some reference in his opening remarks about anesthetic gases in hospital operating rooms, and can nurses refuse to go into these locations because of the danger in the workplace, danger to their health, and what is being done to correct the situation? These are situations that we never contemplated in the past, and we thought that there might be some dangers, but we didn't know.

Now it appears that there are these dangers that are more prevalent each day because, as we become more knowledgeable, we become more aware of the dangers that we didn't know in the past, but we do know of now. What actions are being taken to· correct these types of situations?

I've only picked three parties there - the Police Department , the Fire Department and the nursing profession - but there are many other associated-types of professions that go with these - not to say that these are more important than others - but I think if the Minister could just start off in saying what we're doing to protect these people now, I think that we can proceed a little bit further later on. HON. G. LECUYER: Mr.

Chairman, I certainly will attempt to answer all the questions the member has just raised, but since we are moving in the Workplace Safety and Health side, do we adopt the - I think we're moving out of the Environmental Management Section, or perhaps we should . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: I could ask the Committee if it'.s their wish to adopt Environmental Management, Item No. 2 (a)(1) and (a)(2). MR. A. KOVNATS: I would prefer not .

My leader is planning on coming in very shortly, and it will be on Environmental Management; arid what will happen is that we will be passing all of these different lines almost without any hesitation or pause of when we get to the vety trnd. The only things that I was really planning on leaving out; until we got to it, woulcl be the Clean Environment- Commission , the Manitoba Environmental Council and Worker Advisor Office, and the rest of the stuff I thought we'd lump into one big chunk . HON. G. LECUYER: Okay, I have no problem with that.

It's perhaps a little more difficult to find the various subject areas in the records afterwards, but I have no problem with that. In regard to some of the hazards that the member raises ir:i a .. number of occupational areas, specifically, as raised about the police, fire department and nurses, I think that they are indeed exposed not only . to chemicals and criminal activity in some cases, in regard to police and guards . As well, the member raises the question of biological hazards.

First of all, let me say in regard to the issue under the AIDS label, that I'm asking the current Advisory Council on Workplace Safety and Health to look at this issue and will, somewhere down the line, be expecting a report from them.

I might say that this request to the advisory council has just been put in by .myself to the advisory council; and I asked them also to include consideration of the scientific and technical facts, as well as the social impact of prevention measures on the workplace . 2571 As the member knows, there is within The Workplace Safety and Health Act the provision where the member who perceives that his health or safety might be at risk, whereby he can refuse to work under those conditions , and that has happened already in regard to AIDS, where that has occurred; and the matter has been resolved in the workplace and people who have refused have been provided with that guarantee .

We need, of course, a great deal more information to be able to fully understand and appreciate whether it was indeed a matter of proper refusal. At this point in time, all of these have been entertained as serious. There would be certain occupations where it would be more hazardous than others, and of course this is just one of many hazards that can be found in the workplace . Interestingly, the member might be interested to know that we often view the policing occupation as one which presents unusual hazards, but primarily due to criminal elements - this is just another one .

Hazardous substances is of course one for the fire department . Over the weekend I was reading, and it might interest the member to know, that it's far from being the most hazardous occupation . From an occupational health standpoint, figures given, death from an occupational standpoint, the police is 3.1 per 100,000 in the policing population,

whereas even in the agricultural sector from an occupational standpoint, it's 6.5 per 100,000 of population . In the mining sector, it's 11.1 per 100,000 of population. So it's true that they deserve all the protection that we can provide to them, but it's incorrect to think that it is one of the higher hazard occupations . In terms of both the police and the firefighters, both groups will have already, in certain instances, received training under The Dangerous Goods Handling and Transportation Act to deal and cope with hazardous substances . We talked about that, the member will remember, last year.

We adopted that legislation two years ago. Under that legislation , there's provision for that within the Estimates that we are presently looking at for funding to train people from police departments and ' fire departments to assist in the process of recognizing hazardous substances and knowing how to cope with these. Fire departments and police departments are already fairly knowledgeable of this, and with this additional training will be able to play a very valuable role in assisting my department and, as well, in taking the proper protective measures to protect their own health.

The matter the member raised in terms of colour coding of pipes, that is also a measure which was raised last year and the year before, I believe . I think I've already told the member that it is a matter for which there is provision under the Workplace Hazardous Materials Information si stem , or the WHIMIS system, as we call it for short ,'"which was been - oh, I don't know when now - approximately approved last fall? It's been in the working stage now between all levels of government, Including the federal and provincial levels of government, labour and industry, for years in the working .

It finally was approved some months ago and is about to be implemented. I know the Federal Minister has indicated he would introduce legislation during the current Session. We are ready to proceed here in Manitoba to introduce a

Monday, 1 June, 1987 regulation to put that in place here in Manitoba, as well as put in place the workplace health regulation, both pieces which would go hand in hand to protect workers in the workplace. There would be a certain number of requirements whereby the employer and workers would have to take joint responsibility in identifying the hazardous substances in the workplace, carrying out inventories, providing the proper training so that the workers who might be exposed to these substances would take the proper protection for their health.

In regard to nurses ih the hospitals, of course, the AIDS virus is just an additional substance. There are many other biological substances or hazards present in the workplace, other viruses of course; perhaps this is one of the more critical one. There are also many chemical hazards that are present in their working environment and it's very important that they know what measures to take to protect themselves .

Quite recently we carried out a study of some eight hospitals to determine the degree of exposure and the degree of proper handling of anesthetic gases in the hospital when we of course were apprised of some places where there were problems. In those cases there were written improvement orders made by staff of my department, and I know that some of these measures are in the process of being implemented and will be in place in the short term .

Other measures will take a little bit longer, because we're talking in certain instances of having to put in place, especially in the recovery rooms, ventilation systems which were not there at all. In the meantime , we're requiring that they abide by certain restrictive measures so that the nurses are not exposed to the same level of anesthetic gases that they were exposed at the time that we carried out these analyses . So there are certain measures that can be taken to protect them in the meantime while these other measures are in the process of being put in place .

I think I'll stop here and the member will probably want to ask more specific questions . MA. A. KOVNATS: Some of the dangers that we didn't even take into consideration years back - I've known a doctor , Dr. Cham, who used to administer anesthetics at the hospital. You know, that was his job and he's been involved with it for so many years without even knowing what the danger is. What about people like himself who have been exposed to this danger over the years and now knowing that it was a danger? What about the people who worked in mines?

I was just reading the other day about people up in Flin Flon who have worked in the mines and now find out that they have a higher degree of cancer than average people. What is being done to put these people's minds at ease? When they walked into the job originally they didn't know that there was a danger . I'm not saying that the danger did come about in Flin Flon particularly because of working in the mine; that still has to be proven.

But we have to give these people some sort of protection and peace of mind so they know if there is any danger like that, it's not the ones who are going to be gone, it's the one who we leave behind. What kind of protection are we giving them today so that there will be protection somewhere in the future? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Chairman , the member touches on a point which is a very valid one and that is why I say we have to err on the side of caution. There are so many more things or hazards we know of today that can affect health or can affect the safety of a worker in the workplace.

Because of that, measures have been taken or products have been removed from the market - you know, DDT wasn't known to be a problem, PCB wasn't know to be a problem sometime in the past, and we probably could name a long list of products of which we knew not the negative impact . While we didn't know about those, perhaps we were being, I suppose, negligent in their handling .

At least today if we don't know what the full impacts of it are, I think we would be strongly advising that the utmost precautions be taken in its use and if, of course, we know that there will be negative impacts, then we will want to either eliminate the product or make sure that the proper measures are used to protect the workers . Now to get on to the specifics that the member refers to in terms of, for instance, risks to doctors in the workplace, or problems that we know of today that we didn't know in the past, we couldn't very well perhaps take the proper precautions until we knew what the problems were.

But I have to add that the doctors are at minimum of exposures compared to nurses in the workplace, or to other workers in the hospital, for instance, or clinical environment, because they are in and out; they see patients in their office for lengthy periods of time; they're only short periods of time in the hospitals . So they 're not as exposed as their other colleagues in providing medical services. As far as the mining sector is concerned in reference to the recent articles in regard, for instance, to Flin Flon, I think it's indicated.

The statistical data doesn't show that there is a large discrepancy between them and other occupational areas, but there is statistically a significant difference that would show that, for instance, their health would have been impaired in being exposed to some of the substances in their workplace. That is why we do carry out and we have a program that looks after that sector perhaps - not perhaps, but certainly it is under a great deal more scrutiny than other occupational sectors.

For instance, I might add that in the Inspections and Mines, for instance, there are a total of 1,653 in 1986, almost double what there were in the year before that, and there were more in the year 1985 than there were in 1984. We carried out some 122 environmental surveys. There were 1,288 improvement orders given to the mining sector; there were some 21 stop-work orders, etc. There were a large number of investigations that were carried on, and there were some 49 training and education sessions provided to that particular sector, because we certainly view it as one in which there are higher risks.

Of course, a number of new measures have been implemented in areas such as Flin Flon, for instance, and we're looking at new technology , for instance, to reduce the emissions so that they will be at less risks in the future. MA. A. KOVNATS: This technology in reducing the emissions, can the Minister advise whether there is a 2572

Monday, 1 June, 1987 policy of the government, his department, particularly or the government right now, whether the cost of converting will be solely to the company? In this case, the big company, we don 't have to worry about that much, although you have to give them some consideration . Sometimes it happens with a smaller company and the cost of converting to control the emission is just prohibitive enough so that they're out of business. Do we just let them go out of business or do we give · them time to do it, or do we give them some financial help? What is the policy of the government in that regard? HON.

G. LECUYER: Is the member speaking specifically here of the . ? MR. A. KOVNATS: No, I say small business, in comparison, altogether. HON. G. LECUYER: As the member knows, we've talked about it enough times that I suppose the member could chastise and say - and this is one time I would have expected he would have said - stop talking about it and go ahead and do it; and we are about to implement the . . . MR. A. KOVNATS: Stop talking about it and go ahead and do it. HON. G. LECUYER: . . . workplace health regulation here in Manitoba which is going to certainly be a significant step forward.

But as part of that implementation process, we are conducting a survey or study to try and understand before we proceed that road. As I mentioned the other day, there were a number of reasons for the delay in implementation of the workplace health regulations and the WHIMIS, particularly the fact that the national committee hadn't completed or there were a number of difficult points that · had to be resolved before we could proceed to implementation.

These gave rise to a number of quick meetings last fall between the various provinces and the Federal Minister and finally we were able to resolve all of the outstanding issues. As I said, we will be proceeding, and that's going to enable us to implement the workplace health regulation as part of that ·process. We are conducting a study to determine wh&t impact it will have, for instance, on small business because, as the member said, they are perhaps at a certain disadvantage in implementing and putting in place the requirements of a proper occupational health program.

So we want to assist them in&smuch as we can . Now, having said that, the responsibility to protect the health of workers under The Workplace Safety and Health · Act belongs to the employer. There are compromises sometimes that have to be arrived at. That's what we did, for instance, as part of the implementation of the Hearing Loss and N·oise Regulation so that we would give them a chance to CQme up to speed . We said here it will become effective X number of months down the road. In the meantime, we will assist you upon request and, as much as we can, we will provide you with the equipment.

We will not be, in th:at interval of time, passing orders ; such as stop-work orders because of that new regulation we are implementing. We will phase it in; we will assist. Of course, in implementing the regulation there is a provision here which says "wherever it's feasible ." There are parts of that regulation which says that they are to resort to engineering controls as a first corrective rather than having to say the first solution you seek is to wear the hearing protectors. We say you have to resort first and foremost to hearing controls, because wearing hearing protectors doesn't reduce the noise.

If these don't fit properly, or if they are not worn properly, there could be still hearing loss incurred. So the best approach is to reduce the level of the noise. "Wherever it is feasible," the regulation says, so we're not saying, no matter what, you have to come up with that answer in the regulations. We understand that in some cases it may not be possible. We try in that sense to be, with the regulation, rational. On the other hand, if we know that there is imminent risk to health, we're not going to take that kind of a chance and say, well, it's going to impose an undue financial burden .

We cannot allow an activity to go on when we know, for instance, that it's the life of the worker that's at risk.

Though our problem, and the member knows and I'll use that as an example, problems associated, for instance, that have occurred in certain industries that deal with recycling of products and have put large amounts of lead into the air and workers, for instance, were diagnosed as having lead poisoning, you cannot, just because an industry like that, for instance - I'm not saying that is the case; I'm saying as an example - if they were to say, well, we don't really have another alternative right now, so give us six months, a year or two years, or just let us go on doing as we do, because to do otherwise would impair, for instance, our operation, or put at risk our operation, in situations like that, we would have to say, unfortunately, if that's the C!,!Se, well be it as it may, the operation will have to shut down.

They will have to stop and we would have to put in place a stop 0 work order because the alternative means that you would have workers ' health so impaired that indeed they could die from it. So between one extreme and the other there has to be, of course, some proper measure of good sense and taking into account the realities of each particular situation, but part of the enforcement, the staff in the department are there to see that the industry there is not just there to comply in an ad hoc way.

When these regulations are adopted and when the legislation is adopted, it's after extensive consultation, as I've said, so it may mean that it imposes certain ' hardships; but, generally speaking, when it was adopted it was seen as something that made eminent sense, something that was n~essary to protect the health of workers and therefore everybody would be able to live with it.

Even in certain cases, they would have to make certain adjustments, realizing that in the long haul everybody would benefit because the health of the workers, in being protected, certainly, they would be there on the job rather than ill at home, representing more and more costs from a compensation standpoint. I don't want to talk too long on that point; I don't have that responsibility anymore. But the fact remain_s that 2573

Monday, 1 June, 1987 that's also part of the reality, and when you have that kind of a problem in the workp _lace, you also have retraining costs for new employees when former employees, for instance, their health is so impaired they cannot come back to the job. You have damaged equipment very often. You have loss of morale, etc. So the industry benefits in terms of better production when you have healthy, happier employees and, of course, the workers themselves are certainly going to be happier if they can feel confident that the job they are doing doesn't present long-term risks to their health.

So there's no question about it. There has sometimes to be some give.$and take, but there are situations where that cannot apply. MR. A. KOVNATS: I would thank the Minister . Looking after this department isn't all peaches and cream. I know that a special judgment is required because nobody wants to see any worker in the workplace come away with anything other than his salary at the end of the week .

I think we do have to protect their health, and I would say that this special judgment is required because, you know, rather than close up his employment, because that's their future. and if there is a danger, then sometimes you have to do that; but I think that you really do have to have a very special judgment as to whether you have to assist financially, whether you have to close up the workplace until it's corrected, or whether it's going to be closed up forever. These things all have to be taken into consideration, and I respect the Minister for the remarks.

But I would also like to thank the Minister for his statement where he said that there were more inspections of mines this year than there were over the previous year. If nothing else that has come about from my bringing to the Minister's attention about the selection of mines inspectors, I think that possibly I, with my questions of last year concerning mines inspections and inspectors over other mines inspectors has probably brought about a greater number of mines inspections.

I would like to ask the Minister - he made mention about lead in air levels just in his last remarks - do we have a department that can do that, or do we have to rely on Atomic Energy of Canada to come in with their equipment to advise us as to correcting these types of situations? Can our department here in the province look after everything, or do we have to bring in help from other locations? Are we self-sufficient? HON. G. LECUYER: Yes, indeed, Mr.

Chairman, other than the Workplace Safety and Health Program dealing with the Safety and Health officers and the industrial hygiene staff, they can carry on a study of lead in air in the Workplace Safety and Health. As well, of course, these samples, an analysis can be done by the departmental laboratory, W.M. Ward Laboratory on Logan . I don't have the numbers specifically of incidents strictly having to do with lead, but I know the issue came up a number of times during the year and perhaps staff can find me some specifics on lead.

There were, I might say, under the Workplace Safety and Health, and that is the Inspectorate Branch, separate from the mines - perhaps this would be of Interest to the member - and while I mention the word "mines," I might indicate that the number of fatalities is down, the number of reported accidents in mines were down, the number of complaints were down as well. So it is an encouraging indication. Now in terms of the inspections in Workplace Safety and Health, there were almost 6,000 inspections carried out - 5;913 to be precise. There were some 4,967 improvement orders issued.

There were 163 stop-work orders; 243 stop-work warnings. There were 632 complaints investigated; 1,068 accidents investigated. I'm sorry, I got that wrong; I want to correct that. There were 632 training and education sections; 1,068 complaints investigated; 304 accidents investigated; and 3 fatalities for the department. A total of 15 prosecutions were laid and 8 of those went to Labour Board appeal. That gives you the whole statistical breakdown in terms of the activities which were under the responsibility of the Safety and Health officers and hygienist in the Department of Safety and Health. MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: The Member for Niakwa . MR. A. KOVNATS: I don't want to dwell on it. HON. G. LECUYER: Okay. I wanted to add one thing and I didn't have the figures on it, and I can give it here to the member. I don't have the figures for a specific day for 1986, but I have the figures in terms of lead analysis total. There 1,609 in 1985, and that's the total analysis - 1,026 of those were blood, 574 air, and 7 of those were urine. So the breakdown of the total numbers is what I've given. MR. A.

KOVNATS: Can the Minister advise whether - he's got a bill going through on nuclear waste, and I'm not going to touch on that, but what do we do to back up this bill or our regulations now? Who does the inspections? Do we have to go to the Atomic Energy of Canada to do inspections for us, or are we going to be self-sufficient? The regulations seem to be pointed at them particularly. Are we going to use them to correct any problems we have? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Chairman, we do carry out our own inspections of the search that is being done in regard to nuclear waste research .

As far as the member is asking in regard to the actual AECL activities in Pinawa, that is under federal jurisdiction . 13ut the research that is done in terms of nuclear waste falls under, as well, our jurisdiction and we do carry out inspections of their operation. Just recently Environment Canada invited us to join with them as part of the monitoring of the radiation waste, nuclear waste research, and we'll probably take part with them in that monitoring . But, as I say, those are two very different matters.

When you're talking about radiation, something totally different than from lea1d in terms of a hazard in the workplace . MR. A. KOVNATS: I know that the Provincial Government owns the land that has been leased to Atomic Energy for the experimentation, and I'm not 2574

Monday, 1 June, 1987 sure about where they're actual operaJion is, but is there regular inspections done by terms of the lease, or is it by the Department of Environment? HON. G. LECUYER: Both Environment Canada and ourselves would be involved in the ongoing monitoring of those activities as part of the actual underground research laboratory. I believe there are three reports already that have been published on that . Three reports on the monitoring done there have been published and there is ongoing activity.

As part of their aboveground , for instance, testing with hydrology, bore holes, they have to also abide by certain conditions that are clearly outlined in the permit . Therefore, we simply would monitor to ensure that they live by those specific requirements of the permit. MR. A. KOVNATS: Have the asbestos problems , particularly in the schools, been corrected? Can the Minister bring us up to date on our previous problems with asbestos? HON. G. LECUYER: My answer to that, Mr. Chairman, would be wherever there are problems known to exist, as far as I know, they have been corrected.

That does not mean to say that there's no longer any asbestos anywhere . There are public and private buildings that have asbestos in them , and a number used in a number of ways. Where this asbestos is ,covered or is in good condition, it is the most safe wily Of.' dealing with it. Too frequently, there have been more problems associated, or more health problems associated, with the removal of asbestos because it was not done properly or than there are with asbestos being left alone if it presents no problems. If ies in good order, then it should be left the way it is. MR. A.

KOVNATS: Can the Minister bring us up to date on what's happening with the protecting of the taxicab drivers, the protection of th~ taxicab drivers in the workplace with the shields that were off again, on again? HON. G. LECUYER: In the reply to that, I might add, as far as asbestos is concerned, we have been working on developing a code of practice in that regard, that it should soon be ready to adopt as well. So there will be alsQ a c_ode ot practice in regard to asbestos .

In · regard to that taxicab security question , as the member has said, not at all facetiously, because it's true, that was on again. off again, on again. A committee of the Advisory Council on Safety and Health was formed under the chairmanship of the chairman of the advisory council and came forth with some recommendations, some of which are mandatory , among those the shield. I believe there are five mandatory recommendations . An implementation committee was struck to proceed .

We accepted as a government the report of the advisory council arid will proceed to implement those provisions which were recommended to us. Now, some of the recommendations will be easier to implement; others will take a little more time . Specifically, when we're dealing with regard ·to the shield , we.-have to ·make sure that the shield -meets certain standards. Those standards are in the process of being developed.

I can't state exactly for the member when we will be ready to proceed with the shield, but as we have already advised the industry and made it known publicly by way of a press release, it is a mandatory requirement that will be put in place. (Mr. Chairman in the Chair.) In the meantime, that same committee dealt with a number of recommendations - training to be provided for drivers, because we believe that Oftentimes problems ,;; arise as a result of improper training to be taxi drivers.

As well, another one of the mandatory requirements was that there be a light on the dome of the taxicab to signal when the taxi driver was in difficulty. I don't remember offhand all of the provisions . I mentioned already the driver training for professional ' development to be provided as part of that , the training program; the passenger information that has to be provided on a decal or a sign that would be in the car, and there were other recommendations that were not mandatory but carried with it a strong recommendation of the committee. We're hoping that those can all be put in place as well .

Now the committee of the advisory council is also looking - and that was part of their mandate - whether · there are requirements that might fit or perhaps should ge applied into areas, such as, for instance, as Brandon, Or Thompson in the North. So they're looking at that as a separate issue and they haven't completed the report on that one and I don't expect they will be completed for some length of time. MR. A.

KOVNATS: It might seem like I'm jumping around a little bit, but it all comes under the Minister's department, who seems to be - and I'm not trying to catch him - able to answer the questions that I posed to him, so I'm satisfied if he is. I would like to just make a remark that a little earlier and I proceed this opening with a

preamble because I think it's important. I don't want to be accused of / being discriminatory or a bigot, but I had been accused · because of some particular actions of being insensitive ~ to Natives. That is not the truth because I do have a ' special feeling towards Natives. 1 In the training program that has gone up in Northern Manitoba for the hiring of Natives for Limestone, ·1 had made some remarks about how we were taking people out of an environment and putting them into another · environment.

With that in mind, I thought that there. 1 would be some dangers that existed to these people · that had never existed before . Can the Minister advise whether the training program , that has been in existence for the Natives in Northern Manitoba, particularly for the Limestone development, has given us any ca4Pe for concern, whether it's more ' accidents, more Workers Compensation claims, because they aren't used to the environment, or have, we put them into the environment to the same degree '.. that other people go into the environment? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr.

Chairman, if the membe~ · probably will recall, I did indicate last -year that as part , of that training program that was being provided for, Native people in the North, especially or specifically,, 2575

Monday, 1 June, 1987 aimed at provid ing job opportunities u·nder the Limestone project, there were some 88 training sessions provided specifically aimed at these people , so that they would have a better understanding and better appreciation of risks that can present themselves in that type of occupation, so that they can better handle themselves and better protect their own safety and health . There were some 88 training sessions aimed specifically at Native people to potentially work under the Limestone pro ject . MR. A.

KOVNATS: Can (he Minister give us any instances , any statistics as to the results of these tra ining programs? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Chairman, I could get that information in terms of the accident risks , for instance , - not accident risks, but the number of accidents - for which compensat ion might have been claimed under the Limestone project overall. But I don't have that information at the moment , and even if I were to get it, I wouldn 't have that kind of breakdown in terms of knowing who was injured . It would be total figures .

I couldn 't give you any breakdown in terms of Native versus non-Native , or Northerners versus Southerners . I couldn 't give you that kind of a breakdown . MR. A. KOVNATS: I' m sure that the Minister understands . Instead of a personal concern, I ask these questions for no ulterior motives except for the safety and well-being of the Natives . Can I get back to something that we had mentioned before, and the Minister had given me an answer, but it wasn't quite a complete answer. Let's talk about these soft drink cans .

I noticed out at the park , I guess it was yesterday , in the paper this morning some young fellow was carrying a couple of big bags of empty soft drink cans. I meant to look to see if there were any beer cans in there . I didn't see any empty beer cans, but I cou ld identify quite a few soft drink cans. Can the Minister advise the ratio of input into the environment of soft drink cans as to taking out and recycling of the environment? I know that a decision will not be made until , I guess , another six months , because the industry is sort of on a one-year trial period .

I want it to be successful , because I want it to correct the situation. But if it's not successful, I think that we'd better start looking at some alternatives . What are the figures , the input against output of soft drink cans? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Chairman , the Manitoba Soft Drink Recycling , MSDR - Manitoba Recycling , that 's what it's called - has been in operation for less than a year, and indeed the member would be right in saying that there were no beer cans in that bag, I would venture to say. Probably, I would venture to say, there was not a single one.

I think they all would have been soft drink cans. Under that program , there have been a million-plus soft drink cans returned . The program was slated to come into place some time in the summer of last year and it did not in actual fact quite get off the ground at the time that it was supposed to because they had to get their publicity mater ials ready and a number of other technical aspects of their operations and they were not ready to proceed .

So they probab ly have been fully operating in Southern Manitoba now for approx imately six months , I suppose , and are in the process of trying to establish their foothold in the North , hoping that they can open some depots where these products can be taken so that they can do a regular collection . Presently they operate at 16 shopping centres in Winnipeg on a b i-weekly basis. They operate between 3:00 p.m . and 6:00 p.m. on Tuesdays and Thursdays and from 10:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m . on Saturdays .

I understand that they are in the process of expanding to Brandon, Portage , Morden , Winkler , Dauphin and Steinbach in July of this year and propose to have two depots, as I said , in the North to purchase aluminum and, as well , hopefully , non-returnable glass and will start to accept plastic containers this summer. They are in the process of developing plans to deal with that . As far as giving the member a ratio of how much of the cans are being returned , I haven 't got a number on that, and hopefully I will get a number on that that I can give him once the year is up.

As I say, I can say only that there are a million cans less out there than there would have otherwise been. I can also add this, that is only a small amount or a small percentage , certa inly I would say probably less than 5 percent of the total annual outlay of aluminum cans of soft drinks in a year . Hopefully , when their operation is fully operational , we can achieve a level of return which comes close to the experience under the same program in Minnesota where the return under that system was as good as the returns that are experienced in other localities in Canada where they have a mandatory deposit.

Having said that, I repeat what I said in the past. Certainly , if it doesn't work, we will have to look at alternatives. And they know that; I've told them that. In the meantime, I do not want to be out there harassing them on an ongoing basis because we have said we'd like to give them a chance, probably a little longer chance than I had originally said, in that they were not able to start until a fair bit later than had originally been anticipated . So it wouldn 't be until sometime late in the fall that we would be able to say your year is up and let's see what's happened. MR. A.

KOVNATS: I, too, am sympathetic towards the soft drink industry and I want to give them a chance . The only thing that I was bringing to the Minister's attention was that I think that this is really the one time that the Minister had the opportunity of saying that we are monitor ing the situation, and I would have agreed with it. I would hope that he would be monitoring this particular situation .

The terminology where he used "soft drink," I'm a little bit confused because I have used "soft drink" in the past but it seems to me that the Americans particularly - and I guess we have in Canada - we've always talked about the ones that come in the bottle as "pop" as an alternate name to soft drink, because when you take an opener and you flip up the top you get a pop sound . I was just wondering whether , instead of calling these " soft drinks" in tins, whether they would be called "click-pfft " to identify the type of soft drinks that we have . 2576

Monday, 1 June, 1987 And I know it's going to give H.ansard an awful headache trying to figure out how to spell "pfft," but whatever they do would be completely satisfactory . MR. CHAIRMAN: Put it down on a piece of paper, will you? MR. A. KOVNA"fS: I wouldn't know how to spell it.

I just wanted to bring that to the Minister's attention that I am a friend of the soft drink industry inasmuch as I enjoy soft drinks ever since I wasn't able to drink beer or wines because of the trouble I have with my stomach, and I think the Minister might take into consideration a word of warning also that soft drinks are okay, but maybe some of the other beverages should be crossed right off the list. Can we get down to the spraying of herbicides and pesticides?

I don't want to get into great detail, but I just want to bring up the comfort of the people of, well , not just all of the Province of Manitoba but Winnipeg particularly ; wherein we have to spray for mosquitoes, particularly, coming up very shortly, I would think, because I have seen some incidences of mosquitoes now. I'm not going to cause any panic - nobody listens to these committees anyway except you or I - but somewhere in the future, we might have to make reference here.

I don't know, and I'm not going to cause any panic about how the transfer of blood from one person to another through mosquitoes and how diseases are spread. That would probably add to my argument on spraying for mosquitoes . But has the Minister done anything more to relieve the limitations that he has put on the spreading o·f pesticides to relieve of mosquitoes for the City of Winnipeg, any additional limitations, or is he about to lift the restrictions and allow mosquitoes when the problem gets that bad not only for the sake of health but for the sake of comfort? HON. G. LECUYER: Mr.

Chairman, the member is referring to the pesticide permit regulation and I'll try to limit my comments as close as possible to the questions or concerns of the member . The member knows darn well that I like to talk about this issue and I would like to go at It for a lengthy period of time because I don't believe this to be the problem that so many others seem to view it. I wo1Jld like to mention for the member that in 1986 there were some 239 permits issued and some of the restrictions placed on these permits had to do with the fact that we required that there be no aerial applications over residences.

Personally, I feel and I would hope that we have no aerial applications at all over residential areas - and I'm putting down on the record - here in the City of Winnipeg and over other cities where it's impossible to control the drift of that kind of spray from going a bit astray. We req1.1ire that there be no spraying of schoolgrounds while children are in school; that there be no spraying of parks, ball diamonds, etc., while the public is present; that there be a 100-metre buffer zone established around . residences of those who object to residential fogging .

They already have to register, in writing, to indicate that they are opposed; and, of course, we have indicated 2sn in the past - I should say on the basis of last year's experience, and that was the first full year of operating under the pesticide permit regulation - we experienced no major problems as a result of this.

Having said that, personally, I feel that the misquitoes are generally a nuisance and have to be viewed that way, and a municipal responsibility, and I certainly would prefer that increasingly we try to control that problem through larviciding rather than using chemicals as an adult-deciding program . I think that the indications are, certainly as far as the City of Winnipeg is concerned, that a greater effort is being made in that direction, and I don't know if it has anything to do with it, but so far certainly this year, we haven't experienced any problem in that regard.

I have to add, on the other hand, that last year when they could have carried out their fogging program until the summer, for one reason or another, because of the wind conditions or raining conditions or because they were late in starting, we never experienced that large of a problem and yet they never did proceed to carry out one full fogging cycle in the City of Winnipeg. In fact, they only did it one night, I believe, in the St. Vital area. The member knows, if we want to go into further detail, what I think about the value of fogging in terms of what I would say we could better do with our taxpayers' money.

MR. A. KOVNATS: I've only got one more question on this, and my colleague, the Member for Virden, would like to pursue something on a similar vein. So if the Minister is saying that he is offering his services to come over and swat the mosquitoes over at my place sometime over the summer, I'd be happy to entertain that kind of an offer because, really, it does get very, very uncomfortable and we don't have any real concrete proof of the detrimental effect fogging has towards health.

I know that my wife, who has trouble with asthma, does have some very great discomforture problems when it comes to the spraying, and I know people with pets that leave them outside, they have to bring them in for a short time, but I think if you warn them in advance that it lessens the problem. When it affects the comfort of so many people to the discomfort of such a few, I think there shouldn't be the restrictions that the Minister has put on to the sraying and the fogging. HON. G. LECUYER: First, let me begin by saying I'll do my own exercise and the Member for Niakwa can do his as well.

I can say that the best approach is to use personal protection or repellents that work reasonably well. In fact, all indications are th~ they work much better than all of the fogging that can be done. The member is forcing me to go into a little bit of detail and I did put out a very lengthy letter last year which I think I gave him and I distributed to a lot of people. I think that we have no concrete or conclusive proof that the fogging is in any way successful or brings about results in terms of reduction of mosquitoes.

In fact, some of the monitoring of that which has been ., done has shown that some qf the areas which were

Monday, 1 June, 1987 fogged the day before were more infested the next day than some of the areas which were not. I mean, we have nothing conclusive to show that indeed it produces beneficial results therefore . On the other hand , the member knows, and I dealt with that - and I think he liked to hear that awhile ago - in regard to the other substances, I said that when we don't know, we better err on the side of caution .

Remember I said that just a l ittle while ago, and certainly that applies to chemicals when we don't know what might be the full impact of the use of such chemicals indiscr iminately in ttw environment. We know for a fac f that some people do suffer from various respiratory ailments who are significantly detrimentally affected by various chemicals . We don't know that it's successful, but we know that it can be detrimental . So therefore, unless we have better results, I think we have to err on the side of caution.

I say that, and I say it again, in order for fogging to be successful in the City of Winnipeg, it needs about two weeks at least of good weather so that they can spray almost on a nightly basis to cover or blanket the whole city. There is no way you can teach those little pesky mosquitoes not to go into that area you sprayed the day before .

Therefore, you're likely to find them in as numero .us an amount in the area you sprayed the night before, especially if the wind happened to be in that direction and if they happen to be hiding under a leaf at the time the spray passes by, it's just like playing tag - they got away.

So for all those reasons, I have I suppose very strong biases on this , because I think we are taking undue risks and especially we would simply be wasting money - throwing it to the wind - and I certainly feel that we can achieve better results by putting a little more dollars in the larviciding program and that's where I think the city should put its dollars . Of course, even if you were to control it totally in the City of Winnipeg , what does that do for the rest of the Province of Manitoba? I'm sure the Member for Virden is going to say, "What's that going to do for me in Virden? - Nothing. " MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: You were talking about permits for pesticide application and I'd like to just ask the Minister if you have any jurisdiction over farmers applying any pesticide on their own land, whether insecticide or herbicide, by land or by air, or with regard to contamination of any part of the environment. If he says "no" at this time, do you have any intention of having any jurisdiction in this area in the near future? HON. G. LECUYER: The answer is " no" - no on all accounts . The reason for that is that first of all it wouldn't be enforceable .

Secondly, the pesticides they use are pesticides that we don't have the jurisdiction to approve these pesticides . I suppose we could ban their use in the Province of Manitoba . Having done that , in certain cases I know that there are a number of concerns that were raised , and flags that were raised in regard to 2,4-D. I received a number of letters from a number 2578 of farmers saying, hey, please do not ban the 2,4-D. I didn 't have enough information to go by. We discussed this with my colleagues , other Ministers from other provinces.

I don't know if it would be correct to say every jurisdiction - I would think that is pretty well the case. Every jurisdiction has accepted that we will take the attitude of, we'll watch and see what the results are of the analysis that are currently being carried out by Agriculture Canada ; it's by Health and Welfare .

In the meantime, we'll allow its use, advising people to, on the other hand make sure they use all the proper precautionary measures, such as gloves , goggles, and the throw-away type of respiratory or mask, so that they do not put themselves at undue risk when using a substance about which we suspect there might be problems . So therefore we haven't touched upon it, and we have not touched on any of the other chemicals that have been registered with Agriculture Canada that they have approved for use here currently in Canada, and we have no intention of, at the present time . MR. G.

FINDLAY: The Minister mentions 2,4-D, and myself, from past experience, I know that any chemical, any substance, can be adminstered to some form of animal that would eventually show a carcinogen if you give it in large enough doses or under certain kinds of condition of the animal, like say, during pregnancy or whatever . And 2,4-D, Mr. Minister , is definitely a biodegradable chemical and it's a very cheap chemical, very valuable to the farm community, and has been for a lot of years in terms of effectiveness, relative to cost.

I would certainly urge you in any time that you're in communication with other people in your capacity, in other provinces, and especially with the Federal Government, to be sure that any analysis of 2,4-D or any presently used agricultural chemical is given very careful scrutiny with regard to common sense in how the testing is done. Because as I say, Mr. Minister , salt can be shown to be a carcinogen given a sufficient dose. So 2,4-D has a very good track record, I believe, in terms of its ability to do a good Job of controlling weeds that farmers have to contend with every year.

I believe the odd environmentalist here and there can certainly create a case history for 2,4-D that farmers have a tough time fighting. I don't think farmers can afford the cost of having to fight It if the analysis or the testing is done on an unrealistic basis, which I sometimes fear can be done. HON. G. LECUYER: Mr.

Chairman, we had asked - and by " we," I mean the Environmental Ministers - at our annual meeting - it's almost two years ago - for a meeting of the Environmental Ministers with the Federal Minister of Agriculture and the Minister of Health and Welfare and the Minister responsible for Oceans and Fisheries. I don't know that they were all there. I believe the Minister of Agriculture was there, the Minister of Health was there and the Federal Minister of Environment.

We did have that meeting not that long ago and, as a result, a committee was struck so that we perhaps can, in the future, have a system whereby there's better information provided so that we take

Monday, 1 June, 1987 proper measures to also review periodically the chemicals that have been authorized . And I can assure the member that these analysis of chemicals, such as the one that's being carried out on 2,4-0 presently, are not just minor reviews. They're a very extensive process that probably will take a year or more just to review that particular chemical, so it's something that's taken very seriously and it's going to be done properly.

So if following that study they were to come forth with concrete evidence that it does cause cancer and we have no evidence of that now; but we know that on the basis of something that occurred in the United States - and I'm not sure which state - but that's where the .. . A MEMBER: Kansas , I think . HON. G. LECUYER: . . . Kansas, yes, I believe that's correct.

That 's where the concerns arise, and I believe there it was shown to be cancerous in animals, and we don't know in what proportion or what it is that was used, but it gives enough concern that it was perhaps time that that chemical be reviewed, and that 's what's happening now. So as I · said before, we're not proposing to do anything until we have the results of that study because we have really nothing concrete to go by.

If we had had sufficient concerns that we would have thought that , for instance, any numbers or something like that, that would have dictated that we proceed that route even though it would have caused certainly some hardships because it's been on the market for a long time; and therefore, in terms of other chemicals, it's viewed to be fairly effective and cheap . If we'd had strong evidence, we would have had to take that kind of decision. That wasn't the case; so we'll await the results of that study. MA. G. FINDLAY: I'd like to get on another topic now, the nuisance grounds .

The Minister and his deputy certainly know that we've had a little bit of trouble with relocating the nuisance ground in the Virden area . His department had classed the existing dump as being one that should be closed and a new site be found, and this decision was made three or four years ago, and the town and the RM. were then faced with the responsibility of finding an alternate site .

It wasn't all that difficult for them to designate an alternative site, but once people started to become aware that this particular area was being designated, both the town and the R.M. council , and the citizens of the Virden and surrounding areas have gone through a tremendous hassle as to whether the site should be closed, whether the new site is environmentally acceptable.

I guess I'd like to just have a little discussion with the Minister as to on what basis was the original site closed, and what measurements are made to determine that they should be closed ; and is there enough evidence, or does the staff in his department have enough .evidence that the same problems that exist in the present site won't reoccur in the new site? HON. G. LECUYER: As the member knows, there was, over a .period of a number of years, a study made. It was a cost-shared study with the Government of Canada of active landfill sites in Manitoba .

It was also being done as part of the background gathering of data for our setting up as this waste management system in Manitoba, and a number of, something like - I don't know how many land fill sites there are in Manitoba - that are being studied ; I believe something in the order of 738. A number qi these sites were then selected or held aside for a further study , and some after that for further study yet, because problems were a part of that study . . Obviously, we, as a department, were not carrying on these studies ; these were contracted out to firms who have special expertise .

A number of the landfill sites were found to be either almost at capacity use or had presented certain problems, certain cl)emicals or poisons that were a risk, affecting the water table, as a result of leaching. I think that we mentioned in a previous departmental review which sites were involved - and the member knows that Virden was one of them - and the department, as a result of the studies , had recommended very strongly to the R.M., to the Town of Virden, to find another landfill site because they were already experiencing problems that could of course get worse .

They gave them, of course , a significant amount of time to proceed to find a new site, which I believe it's already about three years ago that these discussions were opened with the Town of Virden. The town is then responsible for selecting a site · and for having the proper studies conducted to determine whether it will meet the requirements of the regulation as a landfill site. These studies were done and I believe that they were done at separate times by separate firms because there were indeed concerns .

Test drilling conducted on three different occasions by three different groups confirm in this particular case the initial appraisal. This test drilling was done on June 20, 1985 by our branch, in January of 1986 by Paddock Drilling, hired by the town , and in October '86, also, by the town, in which case two test bits were installed . So the town is responsible for finding sites that might be suitable . We are responsible, as a department , to see whether the sites so selected is in accordance with the requirements of the regulation, and in this case it did .

As the member knows , I met with people who were concerned about the site selected and we had discussions . I can understand their concerns; I can understand that it ·always gives rise to concern when we're talking about a landfill site. I think it points , increasingly that we have to seek other alternatives down the road.

Even with those other alternatives, there will be landfilling required , but at least before we put in their landfill, we may e ave treated the waste that we put therein. · In the City of Winnipeg, the member may have noticed there were a number of articles in the newspapers a couple of weeks ago whereby they're looking at . . . They have problems too with landfills . More recently, we saw articles in the international newspapers showing this barge travelling back and forth the whole

section of the Atlantic Ocean and the Caribbean Sea, trying to find a country or a state that would accept some 3,000 tonnes of waste on this huge barge and nobody wants to _take it. In fact, as far as I know , it still hasn't 2579 ·;

Monday, 1 June, 1987 been unloaded but at least it's going back where it originally came from. You can imagine, after all that expense of loading this barge, and it'll have to be unloaded, but there's an injunction presently preventing it from being unloaded because they want to condu ct an analysis to determine what if hazardous products or substances are on that barge . It points out the problem that's occuring in some parts of the world of having no longer any sites available for landfilling, and there is a tremendous amount of costs associated with that.

The City of Winnipeg is starting to find that it's starting to have problems with that. And yet we're a young city, we're not a huge population, and we have wide open spaces surrounding us, but it's an expensive proposition, there's no doubt. We're going to have to start looking at - as a society generally - whether there's not other alternat ives that enable us to use, for inst ance , some of the energy that we could produce therefrom . We're going to have to start looking at removing from what now goes into our wast es all of these products tha t could be recycled, and there are problems associated with that.

There are monumental challenges that we have to try and solve in that regard, and in my department we have staff working on that. It's perhaps not as easy as it is in other localities where you have higher densities of population, shorter distances to transport and highe r volumes of the product in the first place that you can recycle , but still, that is not to say that we have to give up. Everyday we can read about very sound, economic new ventures that sprin g up on the basis of recycling of products - a new plant in Alberta for recycling plastics. The deman d is such that they cannot keep up with it.

Maybe we'll fin d a source for some of our own waste plastics. I know that there's a plant just on the other of the border that's starting up to recycle rubber . These new ventures are just starting at the present tim e. I think that's what makes it difficu lt in places like Virden. Although som e of the people were proposing that there be incineratio n, perhaps we haven 't reached a point where it's a viable alternative because of the high costs associated with that , but there are larger communities where that certainly is something that needs to be considere d. MR. G.

FINDLAY: Just to get a better handle on why a site would be closed , you mentioned leaching. What

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	33-2-59a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	33rd 2nd hansardpdf 59a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	5055b0e610a5e14a27ef7530728f96bccce0299a

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