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June 23, 1978

31st Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

L096 - Fri 23 Jun 1978 / Ven 23 jun 1978

FOOD INDUSTRY INQUIRY

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AID TO ITALIAN EARTHQUAKE VICTIMS

HEALTH RECORDS

SUMMER RECESS

COST REDUCTIONS

CONDOMINIUM LEGISLATION

ORAL QUESTIONS

YOUTH EMPLOYMENT PROGRAM

CITY STATUS FOR BOROUGHS

AUTO PACT

PLANT LOCATION INCENTIVES

PLANT LOCATION INCENTIVES

HEALTH RECORDS

PREMIUM ASSISTANCE

WASTE DISPOSAL

MEAT PACKING DISPUTE

PETITION

MINISTRY OF THE ENVIRONMENT ANNUAL REPORT

REPORTS

MINISTRY OF LABOUR

STANDING ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE COMMITTEE

MOTION

COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTIONS

INTRODUCTION OF BILL

HIGHWAY TRAFFIC AMENDMENT ACT

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE PAPER

ORDERS OF THE DAY

SECURITIES ACT

THIRD READING

CONCURRENCE IN SUPPLY

WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION AMENDMENT ACT (CONCLUDED)

WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION AMENDMENT ACT

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE PAPER

WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION ACT (CONTINUED)

MENTAL HEALTH ACT

CROWN TIMBER AMENDMENT ACT (CONCLUDED)

WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION AMENDMENT ACT (CONCLUDED)

MENTAL HEALTH AMENDMENT ACT

THIRD READINGS

CROWN TIMBER AMENDMENT ACT

THIRD READINGS (CONTINUED)

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE PAPER

ROYAL ASSENT

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

BUDGET DEBATE (CONTINUED)

AUTO PACT

The House met at 10:02 a.m.

Prayers.

FOOD INDUSTRY INQUIRY

Mr. S. Smith: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker: In this morning’s Globe and Mail on the front page there was an

article which, in the headline and in the first paragraph, suggested very strongly that the Premier (Mr. Davis) has refused some suggestion made to have members of this Legislature sit on a food prices and food trade practices royal commission.

I would like to have the record set straight, because the same matter was then covered in an interview with the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. W. Newman), in which the question asked of the honourable gentleman clearly indicated that the interviewer on the CBC believed that somehow or other was what was suggested and what was turned down. First of all, I want to read into the record, from Hansard, an excerpt from the committee itself. I know that a reporter from the Globe and Mail covered that committee, and I want to read the thing. This excerpt starts on page R-1225-2 of the draft Hansard for June 21.

“Mr. Eaton: To comment on Mr. MacDonald’s suggestion that a member from each party be on that committee --

“Mr. Nixon: Not from each party.

“Mr. S. Smith: A nominee.

“Mr. Nixon: A nominee.

“Mr. Eaton: A nominee; that’s what he said.

“Mr. Lane: That’s not what you said. You said a member from each party.

“Mr. S. Smith: Not a member; a nominee. You might nominate somebody from the food industry et cetera.

“Mr. Eaton: Not a member of the Legislature?

“Mr. S. Smith: Not a caucus member, no. Not even a member of a party.

“Mr. Eaton: That’s the way I took it. I was going to suggest what you’re saying, that it not necessarily be a member of the party.

“Mr. S. Smith: Not even a member of the party.

“Mr. Eaton: Right.

“Mr. Nixon: I don’t think it would be proper for it to be a member of the Legislature.

“Some hon. members: A nominee.

“Mr. Eaton: I can accept that idea then.”

Mr. Nixon: Good for Bob Eaton.

Mr. S. Smith: Yesterday, in the House during the question period, among other things, I said to the Premier, and again I quote: “I don’t particularly think it has to be a member of the judiciary. In fact, it might be of interest to the Premier that the Liberal nominee would be the very person suggested by the Minister of Agriculture and Food, which is Mr. Poole, the counsel of the committee.” He is hardly a member of the Legislature.

Mr. Nixon: Or hardly a member of the Liberal Party.

Mr. S. Smith: Later in the debate on this very matter, I said: “Let us be clear: It was never the intention -- and this was made clear in the committee -- that these would be members of the caucus nor even members of the party. They would merely be people knowledgeable in the food industry and suggested by all three parties.” In fact I suspect there’s even a legal reason why MPPs ought not to be on royal commissions.

That having been made so clear in the committee and having been clarified yet again in the House yesterday, I must say I’m a little dismayed. I wish to take this opportunity to set the record straight so that the debate, however it proceeds in the public mind, at least has real facts as its basis.

It may well be, for instance, that the Premier wishes to turn down any suggestion that the members of the royal commission should be those buried in the local cemetery, and he would be quite right in so doing. But that was never suggested. Never was it suggested that MPPs should be on that commission.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Nor was it ever excluded.

Mr. S. Smith: It was.

Mr. Deans: Yes, it was. We specifically said in the committee --

Hon. Mr. Davis: The report doesn’t say so.

Mr. S. Smith: I’ll send you a copy of Hansard. Do you want a copy of it?

Hon. Mr. Davis: The report didn’t say so. When you drafted that report, it didn’t say so.

Hon. W. Newman: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to read part of the resolution that was moved by Mr. MacDonald and seconded by Mr. S. Smith: Maybe they didn’t intend it to read in the way the resolution came out: “A nominee of each of the Progressive Conservative, Liberal and New Democratic caucuses of the Legislature…”

Mr. Deans: Don’t make an ass of yourself. You were in the committee and you heard the answer.

Mr. S. Smith: A nominee by the caucus, because you can’t have it by the party. You were there for the debate and you know it.

Mr. Speaker: Order. It is entirely appropriate for any member of this Legislature, or indeed any party, to get up and correct the record if he feels that what has been said has been misinterpreted. The honourable member has done that.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AID TO ITALIAN EARTHQUAKE VICTIMS

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Mr. Speaker, members will recall that following the disastrous effects of the earthquake of May 1976 in the Friuli region of northern Italy, the government of Ontario responded to the appeal for funds to build housing for the earthquake victims. This response was co-ordinated by the National Congress of Italian Canadians.

To construct the housing, more than $4 million was collected from across Canada. Of this amount, I am proud to say, the government of Ontario contributed $500,000 and a further $1,943,000 came from community support in 21 Ontario cities.

At the beginning of May 1978, a delegation comprising representatives of the National Congress of Italian Canadians; two Canadian federal cabinet ministers, Honourable Norman Cafik and Honourable Monique Begin; Senators Bosa and Rizzuto; Honourable Jacques Couture for the government of the province of Quebec; Ron Tessolin, a member of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta; Joe Piccininni, representative of the city of Toronto; and myself, representing the Premier and government of Ontario, went to formally open the completed housing projects.

I wish to report the funds were used to construct solid, earthquake-resistant, one-storey homes. To date, 92 have been built in Venzone, 59 in Forgaria and 30 in Pinzano. Each home stands on a full basement made from reinforced concrete, with a frame from timber made to flex without breaking should another earthquake strike.

Homes for the aged were also built in Bordano and Taipana which each allow accommodation for 40 people.

The Italian government and people gave their sincerest thanks to the people of Ontario and Canada.

Many Italians who survived the ordeal said to the delegation: “It is a Canadian heaven. It’s like a dream. I am really amazed to see Canadians come here and do this. Please say thanks to all Canadians. They have just been wonderful.”

In conclusion I wish to report the accomplishment of the original goal of assisting some of the people of the Friuli region in their time of need. As Canadians we can take pride in this project; a unique venture organized by Canadians to help the country of their ancestry, funded by citizens and all levels of government; a tribute to the energy and ability of the citizens of our country.

HEALTH RECORDS

Hon. Mr. Grossman: Mr. Speaker, on May 26 the honourable Leader of the Opposition asked me a question concerning the hiring by insurance companies of investigators to obtain confidential medical information. I thought I would use this time to reply rather than the time of the question period in order to be fair to the House because of the length of this answer.

As I reported to the House at that time, there was one case last year where an insurance adjuster was involved. The adjuster in question was Mr. Lawrence Lander, and the complaint was received in the office of the superintendent of insurance from the solicitors whose client had been the subject of the investigation. The complaint involved the release of information by a doctor to the adjuster and contained a copy of the complaint and the disposition thereof by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario.

Both Mr. Landers and the doctor have given evidence before the Royal Commission on the Confidentiality of Health Records.

The complaints committee of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario decided not to lay charges against the doctor among other reasons because he had assumed, wrongly as it turned out, that the adjuster had obtained the necessary consent to the release of this information.

The matter was referred to the health disciplines board which upheld and confirmed the decision of the complaints committee of the college.

A copy of the health disciplines board decision was referred to the Honourable Dennis Timbrell, Minister of Health, on July 11, 1977. It is understood that this matter was investigated by the Ministry of Health and the matter was discussed with the hospital concerned in order to eliminate such errors of record security in the future.

The adjuster confirmed that he had no written authorization from the client, but had asked the doctor to make a report. The report was to be used for assessment purposes, and for the purpose of setting up an injury claim reserve. This was done and the doctor was paid.

The claim was subsequently settled, and the adjuster stated that the report was not used in any way in connection with the settlement.

There was no specific violation of the Insurance Act. However, the adjuster was cautioned that he should not become involved in any way in obtaining medical information without the proper authorization of the person concerned.

The royal commission canvassed this matter with the health disciplines board. As well, the superintendent of insurance released his file to the royal commission of inquiry on March 17, 1978. This matter was raised in the Legislature with my colleague, the Minister of Health (Mr. Timbrell), last November. As I stated previously, there was no investigator involved.

On the question of pretext interviews of accident victims by private investigators, now being reviewed by the royal commission, there was one instance reported this year to the superintendent’s office concerning the involvement of insurance companies with private investigators. In that case CIAG retained Centurion Investigations Limited, which have been before the royal commission to obtain a pretext interview of an accident victim. No release of confidential medical information was involved. In this case the claim had not been settled.

The matter was investigated by the superintendent’s office and, as a result, the insurer placed a ban on all pretext interviews and all information obtained was turned over to the victim’s solicitor. Further, the Co-operators Insurance Company drafted a specific code of conduct for its claims representatives which expressly included this ban. It is also being discussed with the royal commission staff. These instructions were based on the Insurance Bureau of Canada instructions for company adjusters which were adopted for general insurers on March 1, 1977.

The effect is to require all adjusters to fully identify themselves and their interest to any claimants, and specifically to prohibit them from seeking to influence any public officer, official, or servant or employees of any institution by any financial inducement.

In addition, of course, the superintendent of insurance, with respect to proposals presented to the select committee on company law of this Legislature on

part XIV of the Insurance Act, has recommended that a uniform code of conduct of claims settlements be prescribed for all persons dealing with claims on behalf of insurers in this province.

I want to reconfirm to the House that upon receipt of the Krever report we will proceed to take appropriate action against any insurance companies or adjusters using, or attempting to use, improper methods to obtain information.

[10:15]

With respect to the supplementary question of the member for Welland-Thorold concerning the Medical Insurance Bureau, I would like to inform the House that the principal function of this bureau is to act as an information exchange office on behalf of member life insurance companies. It does not generate information on any applicant for life insurance but merely acts as a depository of data collected by its members.

The rules of conduct of this bureau aim to preserve the privileged nature of the information it handles. The rules require that a member company give every applicant for life insurance a pre-notice informing the applicant of its intention to make a brief report to the bureau on the information at hand regarding his or her insurability. That is the authorization that the honourable member was speaking of.

The rules also require a member seeking information to obtain an authorization signed by the applicant specifying the company that is to receive the information from the bureau. Information other than the applicant’s name, occupation, birth date, and birthplace, is kept in code and is released in this form to a duly authorized insurer. Correspondence regarding medical impairments must be handled solely by the medical director of the insurer. The bureau has pledged to release, upon request from the individual concerned, medical information to the attending physician and other information to him or her personally.

The procedure is aimed at achieving maximum accuracy of personal information by giving the opportunity to the individual concerned to correct any errors affecting the personal record.

MIB is not a consumer reporting agency within the meaning of the Consumer Reporting Act, which is administered by the business practices division of my ministry.

When the act became law in 1974, a review of the operation of the bureau was conducted by the ministry, including a visit to MIB headquarters. As a result, MIB agreed voluntarily to adopt procedures of notification, correction, and disclosure that appeared to be compatible with the requirements of the Consumer Reporting Act.

The bureau was originally established because life insurers, in most cases, had only the information provided by the applicant to rely upon. There were instances where this information was inaccurate, misleading, or incomplete. The bureau was, therefore, established to avoid unwarranted underwriting losses which would have to be offset by charging a higher premium to all consumers.

The superintendent of insurance discussed this matter with the Canadian Life Insurance Association some three weeks ago. The life industry has recently been in touch with Mr. Justice Krever’s commission and will be preparing a submission to the commission both on the general problem under review and on the function of the MIB.

I do have some serious concerns. First, of course, the confidentiality of that information; secondly, the implications of having one large repository for all this information in terms of privacy of our citizens; thirdly, I am concerned that although the forms being used by insurance companies appear to be legal, proper, and sufficient to obtain clear consent from their clients, nonetheless, I wonder about the degree to which the public really understands what is happening to their medical information. Accordingly, I will be very interested in the report of Mr. Justice Krever.

After receiving it, I can assure the House that I will be conducting further dialogue with the insurance industry and will report to this House on the subject.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

SUMMER RECESS

Mrs. Campbell: On a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. I recognize that it is the rule of this House that one rises on a point of privilege as soon as possible after the event. However, I am rising because of the motion by the government House leader yesterday and I did not actually find the wording of the motion until I took my seat today and looked through Hansard. So I was in no position to raise the point.

The motion by the House leader for the government, which was approved by the House, was that when the House adjourns for the summer recess it do stand adjourned until a date to be named by the Lieutenant Governor by her proclamation.

I would submit that motion is unconstitutional, on this basis: If one realizes that this House is the daughter of Parliament, we recognize that a reigning monarch in England lost far more than his crown by usurping the powers of government, the powers of the Parliament. It has been ruled ever since that the adjournment of a House or the recall of a House is not in the hands of the crown. In this case, we have before us a motion which leaves that matter to Her Majesty’s representative in this House. I protest that we cannot so lightly yield our privileges as members.

Mr. Speaker: I don’t know whether any other member would like to speak to the point of privilege. I think it’s a phraseology often used. In actual practice, it is the responsibility of the governing party and the government of the day to reconvene Parliament.

Mr. Renwick: You never know who that will be around here.

Mr. Speaker: Whether or not the wording of the motion was as the honourable member suggests, I don’t think there are any illusions in anybody’s mind as to who is going to reconvene this Parliament.

Mr. Renwick: Who is the government of the day?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I’ve missed you.

COST REDUCTIONS

Hon. Mr. Auld: Mr. Speaker, on April 25, 1978, the Treasurer (Mr. McKeough) announced an expenditure reduction program amounting to $73 million which included a saving of $35 million to be achieved through a decrease in the size of the civil service. I am able to report that good progress is being made on this staffing constraint program.

Prior to this latest move, the government had severely constrained the size of its work force. Therefore, it was obvious that the additional staff reductions would be very difficult to achieve. There is no more slack in the system to cut. Rather, the work force could only be reduced through the elimination of lower priority activities, through greater innovation and productivity and through organizational consolidation where possible.

Because of these considerations, the $35 million reduction target was distributed among the ministries and the ministries were asked to develop a plan for review by Management Board as to how they would meet their target. That process is now complete, with one exception. The Ministry of the Attorney General was assigned a target of $1.9 million. Great difficulty has been encountered in developing a method of making this cut without compromising the administration of justice in Ontario. Therefore, we have decided to conduct a more intensive review of the court administration system and its staffing standards before resolving this one case.

In developing their constraint plans, some ministries have identified expenditure reductions other than staff which could be made with a lesser negative impact on ministry service levels. Where Management Board was convinced that such savings were preferable and would continue into future years, the substitute savings were approved. For the information of the honourable members, I am distributing a detailed tabulation showing all of the expenditure reductions on an annual basis by ministry.

You will note that the savings in personnel costs amount to $30.8 million, other savings total $3.5 million, and the situation in the Attorney General’s ministry is still unresolved. This means that by April 1, 1979, the government work-force will be reduced by the equivalent of almost $31 million per year with the possibility of further reductions in the Ministry of the Attorney General.

With the completion and approval of these staff reduction plans, the general recruitment freeze announced on April 25 of this year has been progressively lifted. This will allow individual ministries to fill key positions with a minimum of internal red tape. At the same time, we expect recruitment activity to proceed at a diminished pace, as most ministries will be reducing their staff in accordance with their specific constraint plans.

On several occasions, I have explained the new manpower control system now being used by the government. It is based on a comprehensive cost approach with the current size of the work force limited by a global salary and wage allocation to each ministry and future costs controlled by the classified structure ceiling. Within these limits, ministries can and should adjust their manpower mix to achieve maximum results in a changing environment. For example, a ministry could substitute two $15,000 a year employees for one $30,000 a year employee or, alternatively, use the money for several part-time employees.

The objective would always be maximum results for limited dollars in relation to changing conditions and priorities.

The staff constraint plans previously described recognize the flexibility inherent in the new manpower control system. We can expect most ministries to change the mix of their staff reductions within the established limits as their plans culminate on April 1, 1979. Thus, it would be pointless to speculate on the number of individual positions that will be eliminated. However, I have no doubt that the 1979 budget statement will show a further substantial decrease in the size of the civil service. When related to an increasing work load as represented by the growing population of Ontario, I believe that this is a clear indication of increasing productivity in the civil service.

In addition to this latest staffing constraint, I must point out that the government has undertaken a series of measures designed to reduce the cost of the civil service. These include:

1. The 1975 budget which announced a staff complement reduction of 2.5 per cent. The savings were estimated at $15 million, and encompassed, at that time, 1,741 positions.

2. On July 7, 1975, the 1975 budget supplementary actions imposed a further cut of 1,500 complement positions in the internal administrative function.

3. The 1976 budget resulted in a further cut of 1,000 complement positions.

4. The 1977 budget provided for no increase in the government workforce.

5. On September 16, 1977, I announced a 2.7 per cent reduction in the salary and wages account for the balance of 1977-1978. On an annualized basis, this reduction would amount to about $35 million.

Besides reducing the size of the civil service, we are making sure that the compensation level as determined by job classifications remains under tight control. We will not permit upward classification creep, a process which gradually introduces more highly-paid positions without necessarily adding to the number of employees. Our record relative to senior management positions is a very typical example. Between January 1976 and August 1977 we achieved a net reduction of 55 executive positions, despite the requirements of a new ministry, Northern Affairs, and a new program initiative, children’s services.

An additional superstructure reduction program was started in September 1977 that will yield an additional 25 positions.

Thus, the total cut in senior management, such as directors, executive directors and assistant deputy ministers, will be 80 positions. That is a decrease of 10 per cent in the number of positions that existed at the start of the program. According to the June 5 edition of the Toronto Globe and Mail, during that same time period, the number of senior executive positions in the federal civil service increased by 4.4 per cent.

While I am quite proud about our general record in controlling the government work force and, in particular, making a further reduction of $34 million, I must also point out that we are probably at the end of the line in this regard. We cannot maintain an effective civil service if we eliminate all external hiring. We especially need to attract some of the bright young people now entering the work force who can, with seasoning and experience, become the key senior civil servants of tomorrow. In addition, I am quite convinced that most if not all of our programs are now operating at a minimum staff level.

Thus, considering future capability and current service levels, any future staff cuts will have to be related to specific program reductions or eliminations. The potential for general staffing constraints has really been pretty close to being exhausted with this latest initiative.

Mr. Speaker, I have another brief statement in reply to questions 111 to 127 on the order paper.

On June 20, 1978, a total of 17 questions was tabled by the Leader of the Opposition as questions 111 to 127.

Mr. Martel: Is this a filibuster?

Mr. Cassidy: The minister has used up half the question period already.

Hon. Mr. Davis: We want the members opposite to be fully informed.

Mr. Cassidy: It never happens over here.

Hon. Mr. Auld: In reply to all these questions, I have these observations to make.

To begin with, I believe the government has already been most informative on this issue. My reply to question 45 on May 16, 1978, provided a great deal of information on the expenditure constraints during 1977-78.

[10:30]

Secondly, it would be quite difficult to correctly interpret and precisely answer the subject questions. When authorized funding is reduced, program managers respond with a number of austerity measures which are usually effective in the short term. Staff vacancies are not filled promptly, for instance, staff training courses are deferred, travel expenses are reduced and so on. Subsequently to tabulate all of these measures and assign a particular dollar value to them is a very great deal of work, would not be very precise and I fail to see the relevance of the whole exercise.

Lastly, it seems to me that the correct forum for an expenditure review of this nature is the public accounts committee or during the estimates review. Both options provide an opportunity to discuss expenditures and any changes that might have or will ‘be taking place. Since the procedures are less formal, the information exchange can be more effective.

CONDOMINIUM LEGISLATION

Mr. Philip: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a point of privilege. On Thursday, June 15, during the debate on Bill 103, I read into the record certain statements made by people from the Federation of Ontario Condominium Associations who had met with the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations on June 12.

In an attempt to discredit these statements, the minister indicated that the other members of the federation who were at that meeting and whom I did not quote were supportive of Condominium Ontario and that the views presented were only the views of two out of 11 members of the federation executive who had met with him. I subsequently discovered that there were, in fact, at most seven members of the federation at that meeting, not 10 or -- as the minister indicated, a matter which the minister should well have been --

Mr. Speaker: That’s not a point of privilege. Would the honourable member point out to me what privilege of his has been abrogated as a result of that exchange?

Mr. Philip: The minister has indicated some information which was false, and I would like to give him an opportunity to correct the matter.

Mr. Speaker: No, it was the information that he gave as he saw it, and it’s the right of any member of this House to do that.

Mr. Martel: He can’t count, the poor boy.

Mr. Speaker: There can be an honest difference of opinion, but there is no point of privilege.

ORAL QUESTIONS

YOUTH EMPLOYMENT PROGRAM

Mr. S. Smith: Mr. Speaker, I will direct a question to the Premier in the absence of the Treasurer. I am sure the Premier is familiar with the report which the Treasurer tabled which was entitled Youth Employment and the Ontario Economy, and it’s a very serious problem which I am sure he and I agree must be addressed.

I would make one very brief quote from that report: “Recognition of the problem of large numbers of new entrants in the absence of relative wage adjustments has led a growing number of countries to experiment with direct job subsidy schemes,” and it goes on to discuss some of the good points and some of the bad points about these schemes, which are similar to those which we have been suggesting in this party for some time.

What I want to know by way of my question is, will the government act upon this report? The conclusion is that despite some of the undesirable features of these direct job subsidy schemes such as we have recommended, it may be possible to link employment creation to an industrial growth strategy, and they recommend basically that as long as there’s a strategy and the thing is used properly, direct job subsidy is a reasonable way to get these young people into the work force and not just for the summer. Will the Premier act on this report according to the suggestions that have been made?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I think, Mr. Speaker, the report points out some of the pluses and minuses. I think the Treasurer, in tabling the report, was wishing to inform the members of the Legislature and members of the public of the experience elsewhere and our own experience with the program for the summer months. The government, in terms of employment, in terms of the economy, is always looking for responsible and reasonable ways to resolve some of the problems that we face.

I am certainly not in a position today to say to the Leader of the Opposition that we are going to embark at this point on some new program, but I think the Treasurer has pointed out, as I say, the positive aspects as experienced in some other places and some of the problems that also exist. I am sure the Leader of the Opposition understands that I can’t suggest today that we are going to embark upon some new program that might be described as a permanent one.

Mr. S. Smith: May I ask what the Premier does have in mind for what I would suggest is the number one problem we have in front of us, which is how we are going to accommodate the 200,000 young people every year who are coming out of our educational system and will be doing so until that population bulge goes through the system?

Surely the Premier knows as well as anyone else the serious social consequences of having these people unemployed. We have suggested a direct job subsidy; the report seems to say that on balance, carefully done, it is worth trying. Other countries have done it. Why is the Premier so hesitant to move on to this, and when can we expect some action for what is really an emergent and present problem?

Hon. Mr. Davis: We are aware of the problem, but I think there are other matters that have to be considered. The honourable member’s colleague was there for parts of the discussion -- it isn’t by any means a complete solution but I think it is related to it -- at the conference or discussion period that was held at Seneca with respect to the matching of employment opportunities to skills.

I think there was a recognition at that conference that while there are a number of young people coming into the labour force, there are certain occupations or trades where there is still a requirement for people. I think there has been a tendency, and this was expressed at the conference, for young people -- partially because of parental influence, partially because of our social structure, whatever way one may wish to describe it -- to tend to move to some occupations or professions where the job opportunities are not as great.

Some of the recommendations at that conference will be helpful to us -- when I say “us,” I mean to those responsible; this includes the educational institutions, the trade union movement, and government -- in that some of these young people can and should be encouraged to move into those areas where job opportunities quite obviously exist today and where the potential for them in the future in number terms may be somewhat greater.

I would also say, with respect, that while there are a number of matters that might be considered -- and this province has not been reluctant to take the initiative in some fields -- if there were to be a permanent program as exists in some western European countries, which quite obviously have a somewhat different structure, one really should anticipate this being done by way of a national program. I am not saying this means the provinces shouldn’t or cannot do it. I am just saying that if it were to happen, in my view -- and I think I am right in this -- it should be done on a national basis.

If it weren’t done on a national basis, we could get into the difficulty that, if we were to embark upon such a program, would we put domicile in as a prerequisite of eligibility for the program? I think the Leader of the Opposition knows my views on that subject; I expressed them yesterday. I think we would all be reluctant to see that sort of thing emerge as being a precondition.

While I don’t question the validity of the concern of the Leader of the Opposition, I am just pointing out that the solutions aren’t quite that simplistic. I think a lot of things have to be considered. No one is debating the numbers coming into the labour force; I think, though, that there are other solutions, partial solutions, partial solutions, that have to be considered by all of us when we approach the problem.

Mr. Sweeney: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker: In the Treasurer’s report, he clearly indicates that he is dissatisfied with the distribution of funds to the two ministries of education with respect to job creation and job orientation. What does the Premier intend to do with respect to those two ministers and that particular comment of the Treasurer?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I think there has always been this ongoing discussion. The honourable member, who is an expert in this field himself, understands the traditional differences of opinion that have existed. Perhaps it is easy for someone who isn’t as directly involved to make that sort of observation.

Perhaps the member wasn’t there for the Friday morning discussions when a number of people, including some from other than the university community suggested it would be unfortunate -- I think that was the phrase used -- to say to a person who wanted to pursue, shall we say, an academic career in honours history, that he should be precluded from doing that, and there was nothing wrong with a skilled tradesman having a degree in honours history.

I know that is a bit of a contradiction in the minds of some people, but I think we would all be reluctant to say there isn’t some benefit in terms of a general education -- and I use that word general rather than liberal education, which is the academic phrase, even though the person might not use that specific general education in their occupation. I think this is the area that has been discussed. It is not new, it is not different. There are those who would argue that there should be far greater emphasis on the technological courses and on the two-year programs at our community colleges.

As one who debated with the former leader of the Liberal Party the whole concept of the community college and the decision by the government to really orient the community colleges to the technical, vocational, technological courses, rather than -- as I think I recall his suggestion of it being -- primarily a two-year entrance general arts program for admission ultimately to the universities, as the junior college system in some states of the Union, I think the wisdom of that decision is now perhaps becoming apparent to the former Leader of the opposition.

Mr. Nixon: The Premier is wrong in his assumption, but rather than interrupt his flow any more, we will let it go. He is absolutely wrong.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I think the question has been adequately answered.

Hon. Mr. Davis: This was the view shared by the Toronto Globe and Mail at the time, as a matter of fact.

Mr. Nixon: The then Minister of Education would not even let the education committee discuss it.

Mr. Speaker: A new question.

Hon. Mr. Davis: That’s not right.

Mr. Nixon: The Premier just presented us with a package based on Hawaii and Florida, as I recall.

Hon. Mr. Davis: On a point of personal privilege: based on California, Florida and New York state, but not Hawaii.

Mr. MacDonald: No personal privilege, it is a difference of opinion.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I never went to Hawaii -- until a year ago. When I did go --

Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition with a new question.

CITY STATUS FOR BOROUGHS

Mr. S. Smith: I will address another question to the Premier, again in the absence of the Treasurer. In view of the fact that the mayor of North York and the mayor of Scarborough have both recently written to the Treasurer reiterating their request that their present boroughs be granted city status; given the fact that the Treasurer has said that he will not consider this unless it is part of a much larger package to do with Metropolitan Toronto as outlined in his white paper; and now that the white paper has in fact been shelved and the proposals have been shelved is the Premier prepared to ask the Treasurer to use the authority he has under

section 148(

a) of the Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto Act to grant city status for the boroughs of North York and Scarborough who have requested it and for that matter for the remaining boroughs who may desire it?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I understand the Leader of the Opposition has introduced a private bill related to this matter. I haven’t the dates of the Treasurer’s reply to the mayor of North York or the mayor of Scarborough. I think it was really anticipated that if legislation had been introduced in the past week or so, and it was obvious that no consensus had been achieved on some issues, that probably that matter would have been dealt with.

Mr. Speaker, I am a very reasonable, flexible individual; I have had this request made to me, I am not sure whether it was by the mayor of Scarborough or not, but I certainly have by the mayor of North York on previous occasions. I have never said it will never happen. I am quite prepared to take a look at this in conjunction with my colleague, the Treasurer, but the Leader of the Opposition will understand that if I cannot give a commitment on this today, he will not press for some answer before 12 noon on a particular date.

Mr. S. Smith: By way of a brief supplementary, accepting that the Premier may want a little time to consider the matter, may I ask the Premier if he would consult with the Treasurer in view of the intention of North York, for one, to introduce some changes in terms of civic buildings, crests, stationery and so on, all of which could amount to some considerable expense, if there is going to be a title change in the near future? And, similarly, since the whole package has now been shelved at the request of the government, could the government indicate any reason why it would not proceed with something as simple and straightforward as this request?

[10:45]

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I think that if North York is at that stage in its administrative procedures where large new orders for letterhead and other matters are being made part of the budget, if there is a significant expenditure involved I will chat with the Treasurer and make sure the mayor of North York is given a decision. That much of a commitment I can give to the Leader of the Opposition.

AUTO PACT

Mr. Cassidy: I have a question to the Premier relating to the discussions he has been holding over the course of the last three or three and a half months with the presidents of the major automobile companies, with people from the parts industries and most recently with the United Automobile Workers Canadian district. Can the Premier now report to the House what specific steps the automobile companies are intending to take in order to give Ontario and Canada a fair share of automobile production, investment, employment, research and development, and of production in the parts sector of that industry?

Hon. Mr. Davis: The honourable member’s question is somewhat fortuitous. I was going to ask permission of the House to revert to statements. There will be two statements. Mine is very brief, then the Minister of Industry and Tourism (Mr. Rhodes) wishes to make some comments. I can either ask permission of the House to revert for these brief statements or I can answer the question, which would really be just reading my statement.

Mr. Cassidy: On a point of order, we would like to revert to statements.

Mr. Speaker: Do we have agreement to revert to statements? Agreed.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I know the member for London Centre wants me to be brief. I just wish he would exercise the same self-discipline on himself.

Mr. Peterson: Not now, all the time.

Hon. Mr. Davis: That’s his third new suit this week.

Mr. Laughren: Stop playing games.

Mr. Havrot: You guys are the greatest game players in the world.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I would only say to the member for Nickel Belt that unlike his party we don’t play games over here, but we don’t take ourselves as seriously as they do either. We take our jobs seriously but not ourselves; something they might learn.

Mr. Speaker: Could the Premier begin his statement?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will.

Mr. Laughren: You take the Speaker seriously sometimes.

Hon. Mr. Davis: On a number of occasions during this session questions have been raised and points of view expressed about the state of the auto industry in Canada and, in particular, about the effects of the Canada-US auto pact on that industry. During those exchanges I indicated that cabinet members and civil servants were involved in a series of discussions with spokesmen from the auto and auto parts manufacturers as well as representatives of the auto workers. I also indicated I would be prepared to make a statement to the House when these discussions were concluded.

Our last meeting was held on Monday of this week. I shall, therefore, be tabling today -- and I will do so immediately -- for the information of all members a background paper on the automotive products industry, which contains not only a

summary of the information acquired at the discussions held to date but also expressions of our attitudes and concerns about future prospects and developments.

Members will be aware that also within this week the federal government has announced an extensive study of the auto industry and the auto pact to be undertaken by Mr. Simon Reisman, former Deputy Minister of Finance in Ottawa. This new development will undoubtedly lead to further meetings and discussions and, hopefully, decisions and action. Needless to say, Mr. Speaker, I shall ensure that the House is kept informed of these matters.

Finally, as I mentioned, I should note that the Minister of Industry and Tourism has been involved in a series of ongoing discussions with his counterpart in the federal government. I believe, with the acceptance of the members of this House, if the statement period could be extended the Minister of Industry and Tourism should make his statement now; and then I’ll endeavour to answer whatever questions the leader of the New Democratic Party may have. He may wish to direct one of them to the Minister of Industry and Tourism.

PLANT LOCATION INCENTIVES

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: I’m not aware of whether the copies of this statement have been delivered.

Mr. Cassidy: Yours has, but not the Premier’s.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: Fine. On the matter of government incentives for new investment in the automotive industry, I regret to inform this House that discussions with Ottawa have resulted in no new proposals. As recently as this past Wednesday, I was hopeful that a joint federal-provincial approach could be developed to allow us to influence the location of a major new automotive project which would have resulted in 2,600 new jobs in this province. However, Ottawa seems to have become so preoccupied with issues other than those affecting the economic well-being of this country --

Mr. Peterson: You are getting down in the gutter with the rest. This is silly. Get your sights up. Who wrote this, the Premier?

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: -- that the federal government is incapable of determining, let alone taking, the necessary action.

Hon. Mr. Bernier: Listen to your friends in Ottawa.

Mr. Peterson: You are getting cheap.

Hon. Mr. Davis: You should know what they are up to.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: Late last February the Honourable Jack Horner, Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce, contacted me to ask whether Ontario would participate on a 75 per cent federal-25 per cent provincial basis in offering a $30-million cash grant to the Ford Motor Company of Canada to locate a $500-million engine plant in this province. He told me that the $30 million was estimated by Ford to be the difference in the investment costs in locating this new facility in Ontario as opposed to a northern United States state.

At the same time, I was informed that the federal Department of Regional Economic Expansion, together with an agency of the Quebec government, would be offering approximately $80 million on about the same 75-25 basis to General Motors of Canada to locate a $400-million aluminum casting facility in Quebec.

At that point in time, this government had not formulated a policy on Ontario’s role in major incentive proposals and, consequently, a response to Mr. Horner was deferred. While the matter was being considered, it was learned that Ottawa had gone ahead and made a $30-million offer to Ford without Ontario participation. Since an immediate Ontario response was no longer necessary, we decided to take a broader and deeper look at the Canadian automotive industry and future investment prospects.

Studies in both my ministry and TEIGA were initiated and meetings with the major firms, the APMA and the United Auto Workers were convened by the Premier. At these meetings, several firms told us of substantial and broad-reaching incentives being offered by most northern states in the United States to attract new investment.

The APMA presented its case for government assistance at this crucial time in the industry’s development. Virtually all of those consulted deplored the use of subsidies to lure new investment, but at the same time confirmed that incentives were an important factor determining the location of a new plant.

While these consultations were in progress, officials from the federal departments of Industry, Trade and Commerce and Finance met on May 26 with Ontario officials to discuss the main features of an automotive investment incentive program then under consideration in Ottawa. The program being contemplated was specifically designed for non-DREE designated areas of the country and would provide assistance amounting to one-third to one-half of that available under DREE.

In other words, the program was designed to maintain a substantial regional development incentive, while at the same time providing a measure of support for automotive investment location in regions such as southern Ontario. It was suggested that provincial participation in the program might follow the 75-25 per cent formula proposed in the Ford offer.

As a result of our studies and meetings with the industry, we had come to the view that some Ontario participation in automotive investment incentive schemes was necessary, particularly in view of the importance and timing of the investment programs presently being considered by the industry. Our principal concern, however, related not to competing with Ohio, Michigan or New York, but with our sister provinces. It would, in our view, have been counter-productive for us to get into a bidding war with other provinces. Thus, we concluded that a federal program with provincial participation would be preferable to separate competing provincial programs.

On June 6 the Treasurer and I met with Messrs. Chretien and Horner in Ottawa to discuss automotive investment incentives and in particular, we thought, the federal proposal which had been discussed among officials. Much to our surprise, the federal ministers made no mention of this proposed program. In any event, we informed Messrs. Chretien and Homer that if a federal automotive investment incentive program were developed, it would have Ontario’s support and participation.

Last Friday, June 16, senior executives of Ford of Canada met with me to inform me of a new development in the planning of the $500-million engine plant and to request Ontario’s support for increased assistance. Ford was now planning to expand an existing engine facility rather than build a totally new facility and the investment cost differential had increased to $75 million, that differential being between the expansion of an existing plant in the United States as opposed to a new facility in Ontario.

We were told that if the Canadian incentive offer could be increased from $30 million to $75 million there was a good chance that the facility could come to Ontario. We were told that Ford executives had met the previous Wednesday, June 14, with ministers in Ottawa and had made the same request for increased assistance. The Ford representatives were told that Ottawa support would depend on Ontario’s reaction.

The Ford request was considered by cabinet here on Wednesday, and it was decided to inform Ottawa as follows -- this is quoted from the Telex sent to Mr. Horner:

“The position of the Ontario government with respect to incentives for new investment in the automobile industry in Canada is as follows:

“1. That Ontario will participate with the federal government on a 25 per cent provincial/75 per cent federal basis in an investment incentive offer of $75 million to Ford of Canada for the proposed V-6 engine plant in Ontario;

“2. That this type of offer not be limited to Ford of Canada but be available on a comparable basis for other employment-creating automotive investment projects in Ontario; and

“3. That Ontario participation be limited at this time to a total of $50 million.”

Mr. Deans: God, you’d wonder that Ford couldn’t afford these things by themselves.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: Yesterday afternoon, Mr. Horner telephoned to advise me that the federal government would increase its offer to Ford to locate in southern Ontario only if the federal contribution were matched on a one-for-one basis by Ontario.

Mr. Kerrio: They got that ratio from Bob Welch.

Mr. Deans: It’s truly sad when we’ve got to subsidize Ford Motor Company.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: In other words, the federal government would increase its contribution from $30 million to $37.5 million only if Ontario would also contribute $37.5 million. It is no longer a three-for-one proposition; it is now one-for-one.

The main reason given for the apparent change in federal attitude was concern over the size of the federal grant in relation to normal DREE assistance.

At least one other province apparently felt that it would no longer have a sizeable enough additional subsidy available under DREE to entice auto firms to locate outside of Ontario.

In the case of Ford, it is not a question of Ontario versus another Canadian province; it is Ontario -- Canada -- versus a US state. I am very much afraid that the Ford plant will now be lost. This government remains prepared to participate with the federal government on a 25 per cent basis in any program designed to assist new automotive investment in Ontario, however large or small the project.

Mr. Martel: We should start our own industry.

An hon. member: We should buy $75 million worth of their state.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: If Ottawa is not ready to go forward on that basis, Ontario on its own must use every means within its power to ensure that in future prospective new automotive investments, and particularly those of the size and importance of the Ford engine plant, are given every opportunity and encouragement to locate in this province.

Mr. Deans: Boy, do we need a reassessment of the way things are going.

PLANT LOCATION INCENTIVES

Mr. Cassidy: I’m rather bowled over by this, Mr. Speaker, and I must say I deplore the fact that the Premier apparently intended to read this into the record after the last question period for three months rather than before.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege, that is totally untrue and unfair.

Hon. Mr. Welch: That is not true.

Hon. Mr. Grossman: He said the opposite.

Hon. Mr. Davis: The final meeting was held with the UAW on Monday. The discussions with respect to the issue mentioned by the Minister of Industry and Tourism had been going on until about an hour ago, with my own involvement late yesterday afternoon. This document was prepared as rapidly as possible. To suggest that this has been delayed for two or three weeks, or two or three months, is just totally erroneous.

Mr. Bradley: Wrong again.

Hon. Mr. Davis: He suggests we were waiting until after the question period. We were working on this to have it here at 10 o’clock. I told our House leader that I was sure the members, knowing their interest, would not object to reopening the period for statements so that it could be made this morning and the honourable member would have an opportunity to discuss it. In fairness, we couldn’t have done much more to expedite it.

Mr. Foulds: Cease and desist.

Some hon. members: Apologize.

Hon. Mr. Welch: His editorial comments always get him in trouble.

Mr. Cassidy: Mr.

Speaker, now that that point of order is out of the way, I would like to ask the Premier, in view of the fact that the Ford Motor Company is seeking to hold Canada and Ontario to ransom for this particular plant, will the government table all of the information and studies in order to confirm or not to confirm Ford Motor’s contention that that rich company can only come into Canada on the basis of the kind of subsidies that they are seeking, in particular view of the fact that the Treasury’s own figures have indicated that our corporation tax in this province, and a number of other costs that Ford Motor would have to bear, are lower and not higher than in those competing US jurisdictions?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, I am intrigued by what appears to be the position of the leader of the New Democratic Party. I must confess that it wasn’t clearly enunciated to the House, but in some exchanges we have had here -- and I think I overheard some of his members -- none of us want to get into the incentive business.

Mr. Deans: That’s right.

Mr. Mancini: That’s what he said.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I think it was apparent to us that in the discussions --

[11:00]

Mr. Mancini: That’s what he said in Windsor.

Hon. Mr. Davis: -- if it became a case of either it happened or didn’t, I sense something other than total rejection by some members opposite. They can check Hansard. I may be totally wrong and, if so, I will apologize, but I don’t think I am.

Mr. Foulds: Just table the document.

Hon. B. Stephenson: The studies have been tabled.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I would say it is not a question of producing studies. Check Hansard. I stand to be corrected. I have been wrong before and I shall be wrong again, but I am sometimes right. I am not here to explain or defend the Ford Motor Company of Canada. I should point out to the leader of the New Democratic Party, fortunately, or unfortunately -- in this case, in my view, unfortunately -- the decision on this particular investment will not be made by Ford of Canada. The decision will be made by Ford -- whatever its title is --

Mr. Deans: Doesn’t that tell you something about our branch plant economy?

Mr. Swart: It’s an international cartel that is involved.

Hon. Mr. Davis: That’s fine. Go ahead. You can interject all you want. If you want to know what I know about it, that’s fine. If you don’t, then I’ll sit down. It is as simple as that. I am trying to help as much as I can in telling members what the situation is.

One can argue whether they should or should not have. It was a judgement they made. There have been discussions about provincial participation. There is no question there is an offer on the table in some respects for General Motors under the DREE proposal, for a plant not too far distant from the city of Montreal, which we find just a shade difficult. One could understand it in some other geographic areas of the province of Quebec, but locating it around the city of Montreal is not as easy to explain. That is in limbo. I can’t inform the honourable members just what is happening.

Mr. Foulds: Answer the question.

Mr. MacDonald: Do you believe that?

Hon. Mr. Davis: The member for York South asks do I believe it. I can’t get up in this House and say I am an expert on construction costs.

Mr. MacDonald: Get your experts.

Mr. Speaker: Just ignore the interjections, please.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I am relatively satisfied that the head of Ford Canada, with whom the member may not agree and may not like -- my guess is he probably doesn’t even know him --

Mr. Deans: I know him.

Mr. MacDonald: I know that the Premier knows him.

Mr. MacDonald: Perhaps you are too easily persuaded.

Hon. Mr. Davis: One can argue whether Ford generally has met the obligations under the pact, but I am one of those who believes that Mr. Bennett is making a genuine effort to get this facility. He comes in and says their best estimates indicate that in terms of construction costs, and in terms of those other capital costs that will be required, whether it is a new plant or an extension, the differential is in the neighbourhood of $75 million.

I would point out to the leader of the New Democratic Party this does not take into account any incentives from a particular state where they have given incentives in the past. We don’t know whether they will give them again or not. This request from Ford Canada was on the basis of their actual differential in terms of physical location here or in the United States.

We are reluctant. We met with the UAW. I think it is fair to state -- and I don’t think they mind being quoted -- that they are not in support of an incentive program. I guess philosophically the members opposite in the Liberal Party might not be enthusiastic. We are not enthusiastic. The New Democratic Party isn’t enthusiastic because it is the wrong kind of incentive program.

I am the first to say to them that I don’t think any of the major automobile companies need this sort of assistance. I don’t think they need it.

Mr. Deans: That’s absolutely right, but you keep giving it to them and they keep coming back.

Hon. Mr. Davis: That’s fine. Our responsibility here as a government, knowing they don’t need it --

Mr. Deans: It’s robbery.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I am not going to go so far as the member.

Mr. Deans: It is.

Hon. Mr. Davis: That’s fine. He can say it’s robbery. He can say we shouldn’t do it.

Mr. Deans: It is.

Hon. Mr. Davis: The chances are with the change that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Commerce in Ottawa has now communicated to us, the opportunities on this particular facility appear to have diminished. He can say it’s wrong.

Mr. Deans: It is.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Our responsibility, nonetheless, is to see what we can do to create jobs.

Mr. Deans: As long as you give in to it they will keep coming back.

Mr. Speaker: Order. Order.

Hon. Mr. Davis: That is a responsibility we have. It is fine for you to say, but what we are faced with is fairly significant competition from other states of the union. We are faced with competition --

Mr. Deans: As long as you are going to enter into that kind of nonsense, you’ll always be responsible.

Hon. Mr. Davis: That’s fine. I understand --

Mr. Speaker: Order. The answer has developed into a statement and response to interjections. I will hear a supplementary.

Mr. di Santo: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Cassidy: Supplementary.

Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for Ottawa Centre I think has just had an original question. I don’t think he has had a supplementary yet.

Mr. Cassidy: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to say that I think it is time to take the gloves off with the companies --

Mr. Speaker: Question.

Mr. Cassidy: -- which are among the richest, most powerful --

Mr. Speaker: Question.

Mr. Cassidy: -- in the continent coming with their begging bowls to the Ontario government.

Interjections.

Mr. Cassidy: Has the Ontario government carried out any studies about those comparative costs in order to measure Ford’s claims? Has it analysed figures which have been given to it by the Ford Motor Company? If so, will the Premier make those figures public in order to show that is an incredible claim they are making and that it is simply blackmail by the Ford Motor Company to try to get $75 million from the governments of Canada and of Ontario?

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I really think the language of the leader of the New Democratic Party is very inappropriate.

Mr. Martel: You free enterprisers have been giving away the store for years.

Hon. Mr. Welch: Check Hansard.

Hon. Mr. Davis: What I have tried to explain to the honourable member is that as a government we are not enthused about incentives. I said this long before he did, as a matter of fact. In fact, I was surprised at some of the observations coming from some of his colleagues. We made that position clear months ago. That point of view has not changed. Members opposite may not care about job opportunities but we have a responsibility. To suggest that this is a case of blackmail is just totally irresponsible.

Hon. Mr. Bennett: That’s right.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Ford Canada -- and I will say for the president that I can disagree with him on some issues, we can disagree on figures, we can disagree perhaps on Ford’s commitment or the way the figures work out with respect to the auto pact generally, we can disagree on all of those things -- we agree on some -- but one thing I am not prepared to let go by is a suggestion that the head of Ford Canada is not anxious and making every effort to locate this facility in Canada.

Mr. Lawlor: He’s an employee.

Hon. Mr. Davis: He is a Canadian. He is faced with a board south of the line which will be making a judgement based on economic considerations. That is part of their responsibility. That decision may relate to a cost differential without incentives from any state of the union, the differential being in the neighbourhood of $75 million.

Mr. Warner: The auto pact is pretty useless, isn’t it?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Of course we have assessed that $75 million. I am not in a position, nor is the Minister of Industry and Tourism in a position, to say that figure is right down to the last decimal point. I am not. I am relatively confident that it is reasonably close.

Mr. Cassidy: Then table the figures.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I think we are talking about a fair amount of money if Ford Canada is able to go to their head office and say, “The cost in Canada in terms of the development of the facility is now roughly equivalent to that which we would face in the United States.”

That’s why paragraph two was in the letter to Mr. Horner yesterday. We wanted to make it clear -- and I hope those people opposite understand and appreciate it -- that if this is to happen that opportunity is to be available to the St. Catharines area, GM or anyone else. Those people opposite haven’t done this. We are attempting to resolve it in a way that is equitable for everyone.

Mr. Martel: You’ve given the resources away; now they want the cash.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Martel: You’ve got nothing else to give them, so you give them cash.

Mr. Speaker: Order. You’re just wasting the time of the question period.

Hon. Mr. Davis: What would you do?

Mr. Kerrio: Now you praise the UAW.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Why don’t you people just say you are totally opposed? We’ll understand. We don’t like it either.

Mr. S. Smith: Given what I consider the gravity of this situation; given the fact that what was portrayed to us as a decision --

Mr. Germa: Question.

Some hon. members: Question, question.

Mr. Hennessy: Tell them, Stuart, tell them.

Mr. Havrot: Fight them.

Mr. S. Smith: -- given the fact that what was apparently a difficult decision between whether to subsidize or not was resolved first of all, according to the statement, unilaterally, by the federal government who made the $30 million offer --

Mr. Germa: Question.

Mr. S. Smith: -- and then the ante was apparently upped by the Ford company -- once the game was entered into, they then raised the stakes; then given the fact that this government seems to have decided that it’s a game that, reluctant as it is, obviously -- and I agree with you -- it has decided it’s a game it had to enter into --

Mr. Germa: Question.

Mr. S. Smith: -- and now given the fact that there seems to be a problem with regard to the

interpretation of DREE and the inter-provincial rivalries -- not in the Ford case but in the GM case --

Hon. Mr. Davis: That is not what I said occurred --

Mr. S. Smith: -- which is that once we start on this slippery slope towards allowing corporations to make these decisions to locate in our country or not, based strictly on their head office preferences due to financial situations rather than on the market --

Mr. Speaker: I still haven’t heard a question.

Mr. Foulds: And it’s been one minute and 15 seconds.

Mr. S. Smith: -- rather than on any obligation, would the Premier consider that this is a matter of very great urgency and importance and assist us in some manner to act in concert?

Mr. Germa: Question, question.

Mr. S. Smith: For instance, would he consider some way we can deal with this over the summer? Would he be willing to meet with our Treasury and industry critics in both parties, brief us on what he knows about the matter, discuss the implications with us? Because we should act in concert if at all possible on this very serious matter.

Mr. MacDonald: Question. What are you doing?

Mr. Makarchuk: He has got a problem. Harold Greer didn’t get a chance to work on it.

Mr. S. Smith: Can we expect therefore that the Premier will share information with us to enable us to support whatever stand the government eventually feels it is necessary to take?

Mr. Cassidy: He was appointed to sell the store completely.

Mr. Cassidy: So will we.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I would say to the Leader of the Opposition that some of his caucus members are interested in the GM situation. My information is that that is somewhat in limbo at this precise moment. I can’t tell the Leader of the Opposition just what may or may not happen.

Hon. Mr. Welch: The same rules should apply for St. Catharines as apply for Montreal -- the same rules for everyone.

Mr. Deans: Don’t you realize that it is never-ending?

Hon. Mr. Davis: This is what we attempted to do in our reply. The GM thing is on the table because of DREE; it’s there. I’m not going to quarrel with incentives related to regional disparities but we’re talking about pretty significant issues.

[11:15]

I would be quite prepared to share whatever I can. I can’t share that which is given to me in confidence, nor can the minister. We’re dealing with a pretty complex issue and one where I just re-emphasize -- it’s been stated by the minister, myself and the Treasurer on a number of occasions -- that we think it is not good business to get into it. But at the same time, Mr. Speaker --

Mr. Deans: I agree.

Hon. Mr. Davis: All right.

Mr. Deans: Then what does the government do?

Hon. Mr. Davis: We’re faced with it.

Mr. MacDonald: The government has been involved in it since Confederation.

Hon. Mr. Welch: If we sit back and do nothing we get criticized by members opposite as it is.

Mr. Deans: You don’t have to sit back and do nothing.

Hon. Mr. Bennett: Ask Pennsylvania and Ohio what they’ve been doing. They get it all, and you complain all day and maybe all night.

Mr. Speaker: Order. We have expended 35 minutes of question period and we’re not finished the third question yet. I’m sure there are many important questions that honourable members would like to place, since this is the last day. I have two answers of some urgency from the Ministry of Health. I would implore all members, whether they’re asking the question or answering it to keep their answers or their remarks brief if we’re going to share equitably the 25 minutes that are left in question period.

A supplementary, the member for Nickel Belt.

Mr. Laughren: A supplementary to the Premier: Does the Premier fully comprehend how dearly it has cost us to have his Treasurer taking one position and his Minister of Industry and Tourism another position on this matter of incentives? Does he understand, as well, that the real issue here is fair share; particularly in view of the fact that the Canadian share of the North American retail market is around nine per cent,

whereas our share of value added is 6.9 per cent, employment 8.4 per cent, investment 5.4 per cent and we have virtually no share of the research and development funds? Does the Premier fully comprehend now what his cabinet has cost us by allowing the federal government to unilaterally take a position without full consultation because of a split cabinet?

Mr. Havrot: Nonsense.

Hon. B. Stephenson: Hogwash.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member on occasion, makes relevant points. That really is one of the silliest he has made in this House in a long, long time; it really is.

Mr. MacDonald: That is a matter of opinion, not fact.

Mr. Breaugh: If that is such a silly point, where is the Treasurer?

An hon. member: He’s not here.

Mr. Warner: No wonder he is not here.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Whatever positions this government has taken have not in any way prejudiced the potential of capital investment by the automotive industry, whether it be the “big four” or the parts industry. Nothing we have done has prejudiced that. Everything we have done, Mr. Speaker, has been directed towards getting a portion of that investment --

Mr. Deans: For years the government has done nothing.

Hon. Mr. Davis: -- and I am relatively confident that over the period, we will get it. What we’re debating now is really one specific capital plant location; and the member for Nickel Belt (Mr. Laughren) can say he disagrees; I understand it.

Mr. Cooke: What is the auto pact about?

Mr. Breaugh: Where is it?

Mr. Cooke: What is the auto pact all about?

Hon. Mr. Davis: Members may disagree with it if they want, but don’t start talking about our motivation, don’t start talking about any division of opinions because that is totally irrelevant and totally erroneous.

Mr. Laughren: Your government has never had its act together.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: You guys are sucking wind and you know it.

Mr. Laughren: There is the problem right there.

Hon. Mr. Rhodes: You are gasping for air; you are a dying breed, socialism is dead.

Mr. Speaker: The member for London Centre.

Mr. Peterson: Mr. Speaker, I have a three-part supplementary which I think is important to this question. I would like to know from the Premier what other options, what other arrows and a quiver of possibilities he could have used, as an executive of this government, to put pressure on the auto companies without getting into the subsidy game, knowing full well all the risks of that? I would like to know what other options he used, what kind of moral situation and what other kind of legislative devices he contemplated using?

Secondly, I want to know in what form that money is going? Is that going to be strictly in cash or in a provision of services?

Thirdly, I’d like to know the very specific and direct commitment from the auto companies, not only in terms of jobs but also payroll, taxes, balance of payments; effect on the auto pact and, specifically in economic and human terms, what is it going to do for this province?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I recognize the business or accountant’s perspective to this particular question. I must confess I can’t answer it all. I would suggest that if the honourable member, who has greater ability in this field, were to answer this question himself for himself he would then maybe share it with me.

Mr. Peterson: I would know before I made a decision.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Dealing with the third part of the member’s supplementary, we are dealing with one particular plant where the estimated capital investment is in the neighborhood of $500 million. The estimated employment level is 2,600 workers.

If the province’s participation were one quarter of $75 million, which is around $18 million, I would suggest if the honourable member would calculate the retail tax on construction materials for a $500 million investment -- he might be able to calculate how much of it is construction and how much is equipment -- if the member were to calculate the provincial sales tax on construction material, if he were to calculate the economic benefits of having X hundred employees involved in the construction of that $500 million facility, if he were to calculate the payroll for 2,600 employees over a minimum five-year basis at X number of dollars per week and what the retail sales tax and the income tax would be, my guess -- and I am only guessing -- is that the net revenues to the economy of Ontario, if that’s how he is looking at it, would substantially exceed $18.5 million.

Mr. M. Davidson: What about the rest of the question?

Hon. Mr. Davis: That was the third part of the question.

Mr. Makarchuk: Supplementary: In view of the fact that discussions are going on right now regarding the establishment of an engine plant for the agricultural equipment field, would the Premier consider giving the three-for-one type of assistance to the agricultural implement industry, should they plan to establish an engine plant in Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Davis: This is where we are very reluctant to get into the question of subsidies. This is the problem I have raised publicly. You get into it in the automotive industry and you can perhaps develop this rationale. What the honourable member is asking is does this incentive then apply whether it’s agricultural equipment or anything else. The answer to that obviously has to be no. This is one of the reasons we don’t want to get into it.

I am not going to try to fool anyone. I never have. There is a $30 million bill on the table. There are 2,600 jobs and there is the possibility of locating this plant. There is GM, where we want to be in a position to compete. We don’t want any advantages over the province of Quebec. We don’t want them to have any for us. We want an equitable sort of approach to it. Those two are there, particularly Ford. That’s fine.

Members can say we shouldn’t have said to Mr. Horner that we will go three for one, I understand that. I have got to tell the member that I have a few people who are members of the UAW who may agree in philosophical terms with that. They also might like a job. That’s the sort of thing we have to decide. That’s where it becomes a little more difficult; that’s why in opposition the answers sometimes appear to be very simplistic, and I appreciate that. We also have the human factor as well as the economic factors to consider.

Mr. Cassidy: I want to return to the same subject with the Premier. I want to ask a question of the Premier which arises out of both what he has said, and also the background paper which he has tabled in the House which I have had a chance to look at briefly.

The Premier’s statement indicates that over the next 18 to 24 months the automobile companies will be making decisions effecting about $60 billion worth of investments, and therefore of jobs. I want to know whether the Premier and the government endorse the concept, as our party does, that this province and this country should have a fair share of production and of jobs in the automobile industry; that there should not be a trade deficit and that we should have a fair share proportionate to our share of consumption of North American cars and trucks. Is that the government’s position as well? If so, what specific steps is he intending to take in order to make that a reality?

Mr. Cooke: Why should we have to pay for it?

Hon. Mr. Davis: I wonder where the honourable member has been for the past several months?

Mr. Peterson: Roller skating.

Hon. Mr. Davis: We have been saying these things. We have been working to attempt to resolve these things. We have been meeting with the companies.

Mr. Warner: You have a very bad track record with nothing to show for it.

Mr. McClellan: You have nothing to show for it.

Mr. Laughren: They had two different positions, too.

Hon. Mr. Davis: It was this government that prodded them into taking some sort of action. Of course, we are seeking -- I don’t know whether the term “fair share” is the right terminology; I don’t get hung up on semantics like the leader of the New Democratic Party. We want what is right for this country; I want what is right for this province. I have made a particular pitch to the automotive companies in terms of research and development, because I don’t think we have had a fair share or any share. They know that. I have made it abundantly clear.

Mr. Laughren: Get your ministers together then.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Before I sit down, I just wish that the honourable leader of the New Democratic Party would look at Hansard of Friday, March 8, at his own observation and that of the member for Hamilton East (Mr. Mackenzie), and just see whether he didn’t by implication suggest we should be in the incentive business.

Hon. Mr. Grossman: Oh, but that was three months ago. That’s different.

Mr. Cassidy: Supplementary: Did the Premier receive any specific commitments of any nature at all from the automobile manufacturers or the parts producers about improving their performance within Canada; and is the government now prepared to make public its analysis of by how much those companies are failing to live up to the fair-share concept as far as Canada is concerned?

We are endeavouring to get, not in terms of a commitment in that sense of the word, because I don’t know what it means; what we are endeavouring to do is to see that some of the capital growth that is anticipated takes place, that the jobs that already exist are maintained in a secure way; and as I say I have made a particular point with the companies in the field of research and development, because there’s one place they can’t argue with me since they have not made that sort of commitment or investment in the automotive business in this country. They don’t deny it.

I don’t know whether they are going to react to this sort of thing or not, but we are trying very hard. I think it is important not only from an economic but from a sociological point of view as well.

Mr. Laughren: You should get McKeough and Rhodes together.

Hon. B. Stephenson: They are not apart.

Mr. Kerrio: Supplementary: Is it the Premier’s understanding that the auto pact was really to accommodate the automobile manufacturers so that they could, in fact, take advantage of building engines here and bodies there, and trade across the border without too much inconvenience? If that was the case, and since there has been such an imbalance for so long, I wonder if we wouldn’t be wise in suggesting to the federal government that it is time we threw the auto pact out and went back to protecting the workers in Canada by the tariff method?

Mr. Mackenzie: It would end the automotive industry.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I don’t want to get into this, but I think the member will find that if he has any constituents who work in any of these plants he should raise that with them. I won’t, as I have done facetiously on one or two occasions, intimate that what the member for Niagara Falls has suggested has become the official policy of the Liberal Party of Ontario. I don’t think as a party they would support that. I think the member would find that we would be in relatively serious economic difficulty.

Mr. Cooke: Supplementary: I would like to ask the Premier just simply why should we have to pay the auto companies in this country to live up to an auto pact they agreed to? Why should the province of Ontario or the federal government have to pay them to live up to the pact?

Hon. Mr. Grossman: Your leader was asking for it three months ago. Your leader was asking three months ago why we didn’t.

Mr. Laughren: You might have provided some leadership there. You have provided no leadership.

Hon. Mr. Davis: There is a debate in terms of the companies as to whether or not -- we are all aware of this -- within the terms of the auto pact, as companies, they are meeting it. As I read some of the figures, a lot of the imbalance is with respect to parts; and I am not getting into that sort of questionable debate either. I would say it is not a question of why should we give money if they are not going to live up to the pact. We are faced with a practical, real problem; and that is a certain company is in the process of making a significant decision that involves the potential of a lot of jobs.

It is fine for the members opposite to say: “Beat them over the head. Club them. Do whatever you can.” But, I have to tell them, that just might not work.

[11:30]

Mr. Cooke: That’s not what we are saying. They are beating us over the head right now.

Hon. Mr. Davis: That may come as a bit of a surprise to the members opposite: It might not work.

Mr. Mackenzie: Your private enterprise system isn’t working either.

Hon. Mr. Davis: I have to say to the honourable member -- I guess he does things his way, although I sense it is not the way he gets elected locally -- he can suggest things he wants to in this House; we will do things our way. They may differ.

Mr. Laughren: Which way? Your way or John Rhodes’ way?

Hon. Mr. Davis: If that is a supplementary from the member for Nickel Belt, I have to assure him that not only is there great consensus on the approach to this issue between myself and the Minister of Industry and Tourism, but he just has to look at what his own leader and the member for Hamilton East have said with respect to this particular issue and what he is saying today; he will think they are totally different, and they are.

Mr. Laughren: Deal with your own cabinet.

Mr. Renwick: The cabinet is split right down the centre.

Hon. Mr. Grossman: Quit while you’re behind, guys.

HEALTH RECORDS

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Mr. Speaker, last week the member for Oshawa asked a question concerning confidential medical records from Wellesley Hospital. Several hundred sheets of paper containing medical records from the hospital were found blowing around a parking lot at Sherbourne and Richmond Streets on the morning of June 12.

In answering the honourable member’s question, I would like to refer to the present legislation covering the manner in which hospitals handle patient records, outline what the hospital itself has done to prevent such a mishap from recurring and what my ministry is doing to further minimize the possibility of a similar slipup happening at other hospitals in the province.

Also, the Krever commission is currently looking into the confidentiality of hospital records and has already held a special hearing into the Wellesley Hospital incident.

In the Wellesley case, the records found in the parking lot were copies of records kept by the hospital. The copies were in the process of being disposed of when the mishap occurred. They had been placed in plastic bags, and the hospital is of the opinion they fell from a garbage truck hauling them away.

The distinction between copies of records and the actual records themselves is an important one, because the current regulations under the Public Hospitals Act do not cover disposable materials of this kind; that is, duplicate or extra copies of records. The regulations deal only with what be termed the formal medical records of the hospital or photographic copies made for a permanent record.

Section 43 of regulation 729 under the act requires that the hospital administrator make out and keep a statutory declaration setting out the facts concerning the disposal of permanent records. In this case I am advised there has been no contravention of the Public Hospitals Act or its regulations, but obviously the Wellesley case shows there is a loophole in the regulations. To cover this, officials of my ministry are drafting a letter which will go to all hospitals telling them to treat copies of medical records in the same way they would treat their official medical records and asking them to review their procedures for the safeguarding of such records.

Officials at the Wellesley Hospital, I have been advised, combed the site on June 12 and 13 and attempted to ensure that they retrieved every single record that was retrievable. To ensure such a mishap is not repeated, they have temporarily halted disposal of such records. They have issued a circular to all hospital departments asking that the patient’s identity be removed from all types of records before records are sent for disposal, and they are developing a policy and procedures manual which will address the whole subject of confidentiality and disposal of medical records.

Finally, I have directed officials of my ministry to work closely with the Ontario Hospital Association to prepare a set of guidelines for all hospitals covering the handling and disposal of medical records. These guidelines will provide a consistent approach to this matter until such time as we are able to take advantage of the extensive and thorough investigation currently under way by Mr. Justice Krever. We will be looking to that commission’s recommendation as the basis for a long-term solution to the serious and difficult problem of maintaining confidentiality in our health care system.

Mr. Breaugh: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could be given a supplementary on that response. The minister pointed out the unique loophole in the law about copies as opposed to original records. I heard him indicate that he is prepared to write to them, to prepare guidelines and all that; but I did not hear him say that he is prepared now to make regulations which would close that loophole. Is he prepared to do that?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: I think that would be unnecessary at this point. We will direct them to treat the copies in exactly the same manner as permanent records, and I think that will cover it until we get the report, probably later in the fall, from the Krever commission. Then we can make the long-term changes as necessary, through either legislation or regulations.

Mr. Breaugh: A further supplementary on that: I really don’t know why the minister is not prepared to move to the regulation stage now. Would it not be true, no matter what kind of letter or guidelines the minister sent out, there would still be no validity to any argument that any law has been broken should copies be released in this manner or in any other manner? Isn’t the basic problem the fact that the law does not require them to address themselves to copies of medical records?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: I’m one who believes one passes a law if there’s some resistance to a less formal route. I have no reason to believe from the discussions between my staff and myself with people in the hospital community that there will be any resistance at all. I don’t think we should constantly keep rolling in new regulations. I think we can do it on a voluntary basis. I don’t foresee any problem that way.

PREMIUM ASSISTANCE

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: The second question I’d like to answer came from the member for London Centre on June 15. He asked -- and I’m paraphrasing, I believe -- why don’t we reveal to an applicant for temporary premium assistance the upper limit of his financial status which would preclude his being eligible for temporary premium assistance. I hope that’s accurate.

The formula used for granting temporary assistance incorporates the applicant’s present income, liquid assets and number of dependants. This information is provided by the applicant on the original application. With regard to the factors taken into consideration, a resident may apply for temporary assistance based on the immediate financial need due to unemployment, illness, disability or financial hardship. The factors under which an application will be considered are clearly requested on the application for temporary assistance.

The practice up until now has been for OHIP to advise an applicant whose application has been refused that he may have it reviewed by the OHIP management committee. OHIP did not advise the applicant that he could appeal to the health services appeal board.

On June 5, 10 days before the member raised the question, I directed the staff of OHIP to ensure that all insured persons were advised of their rights to appeal under

section 24 of the Health Insurance Act. I have been advised by my officials at OHIP that there were very few refusals -- about one half dozen a month -- that the OHIP review committee had turned down.

In future, applicants whose request for temporary premium assistance is denied will be advised in writing by OHIP of their right to appeal to the health services appeal board. Applications for temporary assistance which are initially turned down from here on in will automatically be reviewed by the OHIP review committee before the above-mentioned notice goes to the individual concerned about the health services appeal board. We’ll cut out a step of delay for the individual applicant.

Mr. Peterson: I understand they have a right to appeal under

section 24. I appreciate the fact that the minister has cleaned up the procedure in informing applicants of their rights. But clearly that’s not the issue. Would the minister not agree with me that the issue is that there are no set guidelines and there are no rules against which they can appeal. How can one present one’s case to the review committee if one does not know what the upper limits of income or assets are, be it liquid or otherwise?

If the minister checks with the Attorney General (Mr. McMurtry), clearly there is a denial of justice if people don’t know the rules against which they can appeal. Isn’t that the issue?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: Each case is judged on its merits.

Mr. Peterson: How do you judge the merits without guidelines?

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: One could take six illustrations of a family of four and come up with a completely different mix of assets, mortgages, outstanding debts, et cetera. Each one is judged on its merits. It’s a matter of substantiating need. I point out to the member again very few are turned down; it’s something in the order of six a month.

Mr. Peterson: Wouldn’t the minister agree with me this leaves this quasi-judicial procedure to the whim or the predisposition of the review board? The rules are not nearly enough clear. It’s far too discretionary for an applicant to have real justice in the circumstances.

Hon. Mr. Timbrell: No, I wouldn’t agree at all.

WASTE DISPOSAL

Mr. C. I. Miller: I would like to address a question to the Minister of the Environment. In view of the public apprehension and concern over the matter of liquid industrial waste and the need for immediate action, will the minister reconsider his position and set up a task force which could study the matter over the summer and bring in recommendations for action no later than this fall?

Hon. Mr. McCague: That question was asked by the critic for the NDP the other day. I said I didn’t see that there was any necessity for a special task force. We are looking into that. I have had discussions with the member’s leader, who happens to endorse that kind of a situation; I am meeting with the leader and with the critic of that party to discuss some of these issues. I’m surprised the member didn’t check with him before he asked that.

MEAT PACKING DISPUTE

Mr. Ziemba: A question to the Minister of Agriculture and Food: Given that under ordinary conditions when a company goes on strike its main competitor will rush out and do the business that the struck company cannot do, and given that Canada Packers did not do this when its main competitor, Swift’s, was at this disadvantage -- in fact Canada Packers locked its own workers out and stopped doing business as well -- would this suggest to the minister that there is a Canada Packers-Swift meat cartel? Is he prepared to bring this cartel before our food industry inquiry to investigate how it affects the producer and the consumer?

Hon. W. Newman: The answer to that question is no.

Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired.

Hon. Mr. Davis: Darn!

Mr. Breithaupt: Darn! Have a good summer. Saved by the bell.

Mr. Cassidy: On a point of order, I just want to ask the Premier and the House leader, since the matter of the auto pact is of such importance, whether they will agree by agreement between the House leaders that within a week of the House resuming its sessions in the fall we can have a special one-day debate on the auto pact and that all of the information --

Mr. Speaker: That’s not a point of order. You had an opportunity to ask that during question period.

PETITION

MINISTRY OF THE ENVIRONMENT ANNUAL REPORT

Ms. Bryden: I have in my hand a petition signed by 20 members of the Legislature requesting that the latest annual report of the Ministry of the Environment be referred to the standing committee on resources development for consideration and report when it meets on resumption of sittings in the fall. I hope the minister will undertake to prepare material for this consideration over the summer, particularly on the question of liquid industrial waste, which has reached crisis proportions. Mr. Speaker, would you like me to read the petition?

Mr. T. P. Reid: No.

Mr. Speaker: It is sufficient to present it to the table.

REPORTS

MINISTRY OF LABOUR

Hon. B. Stephenson presented the annual report of the Workmen’s Compensation Board for 1977; the interim statement of the Advisory Council on Occupational Health and Occupational Safety, November 1, 1977-March 31, 1978; the annual report of the Ministry of Labour, 1977-78; and the 1976-77 report on the status of women crown employees.

Hon. B. Stephenson: I wonder if I might make a brief statement about the report of the status of women crown employees, which I am depositing today with the Clerk. I had hoped to have this report earlier this year, however, I think the honourable members will realize that a fair amount of time and work had to go into developing this report again this year. Additional copies of the report and the appendix will be available from the women crown employees office within the next few weeks.

I’d like to take this opportunity to outline several changes in the organization and operation of the women’s programs, the most significant, of course, being the elimination of the position of executive co-ordinator. Experience has shown that at this stage of the program’s development a senior co-ordinator is really no longer necessary and resources from that office have been distributed between the women crown employees office and the women’s bureau quite effectively.

With the elimination of that position, a number of other changes were required as well. For example, the women crown employees office is now responsible for preparation of this report, in close co-operation with the central agencies of government. Formerly, the executive co-ordinator represented the government of Ontario on the Status of Women Council. That responsibility is now fulfilled by the director of the women’s bureau.

The Deputy Minister of Labour is now the ex officio member of the Civil Service Commission, replacing the executive coordinator in that role. The Affirmative Action Council, which formerly reported to the executive co-ordinator, reports now to the women crown employees office.

[11:15]

The honourable members will notice that the women crown employees office has made several changes in the format of the report as well. For instance, the ministry and agency chapters have been simplified and are provided under separate cover. The report is similar to those of preceding years in that it reports on corporate activities and analyses government-wide statistics. It shows some very positive trends are beginning to emerge in the status of women crown employees.

For example, the number of women moving into job areas where they have been underrepresented or into levels that they have never reached before, has increased from 130 in 1975-76 to 440 in 1976-77. In addition, 23 of the 29 ministries and agencies for which we have comparable data reported a slight narrowing of the wage gap between men’s and women’s salaries for the 1976-77 year.

During the year 1975-76, the average woman’s wage was 70.4 per cent of the average male’s wage; daring 1976-77 that had risen to 72.3 per cent.

While we are pleased to see these improvements, we are aware there has been little change in the occupational distribution of female employees. A strong continued effort in the affirmative action program will be required to bring about this long-term goal.

STANDING ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE COMMITTEE

Mr. Ziemba, on behalf of Mr. Philip from the standing administration of justice committee, reported the following resolution:

Resolved, that supply in the following amounts and to defray the expenses of the Ministry of Correctional Services be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1979:

Ministry of Correctional Services

Ministry administration program ... $ 7,844,000

Institutional program .................. 100,149,000

Community program ................... 15,158,000

MOTION

COMMITTEE SUBSTITUTIONS

Hon. Mr. Welch moved that Mr. Havrot be substituted for Mr. Elgie, and Mr. Lane for Mr. Turner on the select committee on the Ombudsman. Also, that Mr. Laughren be substituted for Mr. Warner on the select committee on company law.

Motion agreed to.

INTRODUCTION OF BILL

HIGHWAY TRAFFIC AMENDMENT ACT

Mr. Peterson moved first reading of Bill 140,

An Act to amend the Highway Traffic Act.

Motion agreed to.

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE PAPER

Hon. Mr. Welch: Before the orders of the day, I wish to table the answers to questions 104, 105, 106 and 107 standing on the notice paper.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

SECURITIES ACT

Hon. Mr. Grossman moved third reading of Bill 7,

An Act to revise the Securities Act.

Mr. Breithaupt: There is one particular thing that I did want to bring to the attention of the minister as we complete this bill in a formal way.

As members of the House will recall, the- committee stage of this bill was finished on Wednesday, June 21. Now that the bill has been reprinted, we are able to proceed with it in the normal way. However, on Monday and Tuesday, June 19 and 20, there were certain public hearings dealing with the matter which is known as “going private” which the Ontario Securities Commission held in the Macdonald Block.

Those meetings related to some comments which the minister made during the committee stage of the bill when he spoke in committee on June 15. At that time, he acknowledged the great complicated problem that this whole subject brought to the securities industry and he said the following:

“This is a difficult and complicated area where detailed policy requires the benefit of experience. Accordingly, it would not be feasible to include guidelines in the bill at this time. However, I have instructed Mr. Baille in the Ontario Securities Commission to prepare draft guidelines indicating the basis on which their discretion will be exercised, and explaining in more detail how they interpret the word ‘control.’

“These guidelines will be published for comment and discussion and will be revised in final form before the bill is proclaimed into law. Should discussion of the draft guidelines, or subsequent experience, indicate that changes are needed in the legislation, we will not hesitate to return to the assembly with appropriate proposals for an amending bill.”

This matter particularly refers to

section 91 in the bill. Following the statement that the minister made, I am somewhat concerned as to whether it is his intention not to have this bill proclaimed until those regulations are in place. Or is it the minister’s intention to have the bill proclaimed, and then deal with the matter for regulation? It would be my view that the security bill, Bill 7, and the following two bills should be in place at the earliest opportunity. But I am wondering if the minister can tell us what procedure he intends to follow with respect to proclamation, so that the industry can clearly know just what the ground rules are?

Hon. Mr. Grossman: There were a couple of matters raised at the committee stage. The one I recall the member referring to, and reading from the transcript, I think related not so much to the going private situation as to the takeover provisions of the legislation.

Mr. Breithaupt: More common.

Hon. Mr. Grossman: These, of course, were the more common situations up until the last recent number of months.

With regard to those provisions we did want specifically to indicate to the industry that we did have some reservations, after having heard from them both at the securities commission level and at committee stage. We were concerned that perhaps the takeover provisions were such that they may stop some takeovers that might otherwise occur and operate to the advantage of Ontario and Canada generally.

So it was because of that concern that we wanted to be in a position to indicate to the industry the circumstances under which the commission would be exercising its rights and discretion to grant an exemption from those takeover provisions. That would provide some degree of predictability so that some takeovers, which might operate to the advantage of our economy in Ontario, could occur and proceed without speculation or worry.

It was that provision, not so much the going private part, that we were addressing at that time; although we have made clear, both in and outside the committee, our concern, as the members will be well aware, about the new phenomenon of going private. We have made it very clear that we are studying it and will have much more to say about it in the next few months.

Specifically we undertook the committee to try and develop those rules before the bill is proclaimed. My understanding is that we agreed at the committee stage to try and develop both those guidelines and the guidelines for disclosure of senior officers’ salaries prior to proclaiming the legislation.

At the current time, Mr. Baillie has told me that he expects it would take almost the balance of this calendar year to have all that in place because they are very complicated regulations. He said if we were to stay on that course the bill would not be proclaimed until, say, the end of this year. That does give me some cause for concern. I must say to the member that as of this date -- the bill only having passed committee last Wednesday, as you know -- I haven’t resolved a course of action with Mr. Baillie, either to go ahead without those rules in place, or to hold off until those rules are in place.

If the member and the House will permit us, we will let the critics know what our intentions are, and the industry know what our intentions are, literally in the next three or four weeks. But I must be honest: we haven’t been able to resolve those two conflicting concerns at the present time.

Motion agreed to.

THIRD READING

Bill 8,

An Act to regulate Trading in Commodity Futures Contracts.

Bill 9,

An Act to amend the Business Corporations Act.

CONCURRENCE IN SUPPLY

Resolutions for supply for the following ministries were concurred in by the House:

Ministry of the Solicitor General;

Ministry of Agriculture and Food;

Ministry of Colleges and Universities;

Ministry of Correctional Services.

WORKMEN’S COMPENSATION AMENDMENT ACT (CONCLUDED)

Resumption of the adjourned debate on the motion for second reading of Bill 126,

An Act to amend the Workmen’s Compensation Act.

Mr. Kerrio: Mr. Speaker, in the interests of getting the business of the House completed, 1 would like to summarize and get on the record just a couple of my concerns regarding the bill.

As I suggested before, the increases in the act certainly are welcome on all sides of the House. But along with the increases I must read into the record the concerns that I have as they relate to the payments. As the cost escalation that relates to pegging these payments concerns me, I would like to read into the record the increases in assessments from 1970. I am taking a particular group because this was reported in a report by one of the auto manufacturers -- group 306. In 1970 the rate for group 306 was $59.90 per $100. By 1974, it had more than doubled to $132. For 1978, it had risen to $337.50. This represents a 470 per cent increase since 1970 and a 155 per cent increase since 1974.

The reason I make much of this aspect of Workmen’s Compensation is because I have a very strong feeling that unless we take the responsible position of doing something about relieving some industry from the burden entirely, and that the burden be shared by those other people in our society, it becomes very easy to pass legislation that would just take increases and pass the cost to a third party. I think that area could very well be looked into and a reasonable assessment made so that those people who cannot just pass on those substantial increases are given some form of help.

In the minister’s program as it relates to safety, where there was an involvement of employees, employers and the government -- an extremely good program -- the results are known to all in the industry. We have established something there that was beyond what most people had expected or hoped for. We’ve reduced the accidents because we had the co-operation of employers, employees and the government. I am suggesting that until such time as everyone related to workmen’s compensation becomes involved in a more meaningful way we will continue to have these kind of increases before us.

I am just a little afraid they will put us in a position where we become less and less competitive on the international scene.

So while I am very pleased about what has happened here, and I am particularly pleased about the retroactivity, I would ask the minister in some further studies to look into that matter as it relates to more involvement with everyone involved in Workmen’s Compensation at any level to participate to the degree that it is to the advantage of everyone concerned, to have a better record, to have fewer injured workers, to look after and retrain those who are injured, and to make the whole system work to the benefit of everyone in this community and in society.

[12:00]

Mr. Foulds: Mr. Speaker, I just have three points that I would like to make and I would like to make them as briefly as possible this morning. I would like to make them as a result of some of the things that were said, or not said, last night and during the course of the debate.

Mr. Nixon: Was there something not said last night?

Hon. B. Stephenson: Everything was said.

Mr. Foulds: All kinds of things were left unsaid last night.

Although I disagree profoundly with the attitudes expressed by the member for Niagara Falls and supported by the government, I must say that I respect the viewpoint. I disagree with it profoundly because I think it starts from a wrong premise; the member for Niagara Falls obviously has the same feeling about my viewpoint.

This morning I would like to discuss, if possible in a civilized way, a few of the reasons for those differences.

Mr. Kerrio: I just proved that I could do it both ways.

Mr. Lupusella: Why don’t you shut up?

Mr. Foulds: Yes, indeed, the member was very calm this morning.

I think it is important that we recognize the concept of workmen’s compensation for what it is. The concept is that we compensate a worker who has been injured on the job in terms of his earnings at the time of the accident. In some sense there is a fundamental flaw in the way we have administered the program that is not addressed in this particular bill, except incidentally in

section 2 and some of the subsections by agreeing to a percentage difference for each of the years.

What we don’t take into account is the loss in earning power. Over roughly the last 35 years, we have had a period of inflation of various rates. Since the 1930s we have not had a period of deflation. It would seem to me that if, as a result of the actuarial soundness in the plan, we cannot take into account the projected increase that a worker who is injured loses in terms of the increase that would naturally accrue to him as he worked and perhaps went up the ladder in terms of position -- in terms of apprenticeship to journeyman, or in the case of my dad, for example, from

section man to

section foreman to roadmaster; he was blocked from going to the roadmaster’s position because of an injury that made him ineligible for the position. If we cannot take that into account -- and I think we should -- at least we should take into account an indexing that would keep his level of income in line with the increase in the cost of living. It seems to me that is only fair.

It may not be possible to do it in the emergency situation that we have had in the House yesterday and today; we want to get this bill through. However, I think it is a concept that the minister and the board should look at. It struck me with some irony that we passed a bill yesterday morning having to do with the Crown Timber Act which met the indexing requirements, justifiably, in terms of the levies paid by the pulp and paper companies for the product they get from the people of Ontario related to the cost of the end product and what they receive in the market.

If we can devise a formula of indexing that seems to give security and certainty to the industry in that case, at a moving level, surely we could devise an indexing formula in this case to give the worker who is injured the certainty and the security of knowing that at least his level of income would match the cost of living increase.

I would submit to this House that if that happens we would, in fact, save a good deal of administrative costs, in terms of the board, because a number of the cases that I receive, and that every member of this House receives, that the board itself receives, are reassessments and re-evaluations of an old case, simply because the person can no longer survive on the amount of the benefits.

It may not be necessary to do a medical reassessment and so on. I think we would save some administrative costs that way and I think we would certainly save a lot of emotional and functional overlay that sometimes applies in these cases. I think that is one of the benefits that the board and the minister should look at in considering that avenue.

The other point is that which the member for Niagara Falls seemed to make, that as a human being, he would like to give as generous benefits as possible without destroying the economy. I may be doing his argument an injustice but, as I heard it, that seems to be if we don’t make our industry uncompetitive.

I quote from the Wyatt repost -- and I admit that it’s selective -- on page 175, under the heading, “Who pays for Workmen’s Compensation?” Essentially, the report says:

“In the end, the total cost of employing a worker includes wages and the cost of all employee benefits, including the cost of workmen’s compensation. The employer must weigh this total cost against the value of the worker’s output in determining whether to employ the worker. Thus, the cost of all alleged social gains can be considered to fall invariably upon the wage earner.” You can take that argument to its logical conclusion and it sometimes falls on the wage earner in terms of unemployment. But it does fall on the wage earner and the working people of this province; and I think we should recognize they are the people who pay for the cost of compensation.

The final point that I want to make, Mr. Speaker, is that we fundamentally disagree with the position of both the Liberal and the Conservative parties in terms of how wealth gets created in this province. I want to put to you very, very succinctly that no matter how much money, no matter how much investment, no matter how much managerial skill the free-enterprise system puts into our economy, the gross provincial product would not exist, the gross national product would not exist, wealth would not exist if it were not for labour.

Labour is the essential ingredient in the creation of wealth. You take away that essential ingredient and we would have an economy like the middle ages or worse. It is the only essential ingredient in the creation of wealth. If that is so, it seems to us that we should treat those people whose activity, whose work creates that wealth, with dignity and we should treat the loss of their ability to work with dignity; and some of the workmen have, unfortunately, sacrificed their lives and their limbs simply in the pursuit of work.

We should recognize that work is the essential element in the creation of wealth, we should recognize that even within a bill as confined as the Workmen’s Compensation Board Act, and we should, therefore, pay the reward for work.

We should, therefore, pay the compensation benefits that are related to the wages earned at a level of dignity that allows that person to continue to live in dignity, to be a human being in dignity when he loses that ability to work and create wealth.

Mr. Sweeney: Mr. Speaker, I want to participate just for a very brief period of time. I must say I am moved by the remarks of the previous speaker. I would certainly support his contention that the efforts of labour, of the working people of the province, certainly are an essential component to the creation of wealth in all economic sectors of our province. I would only point out to the member, however, that they are one of the essential components. They are not the only component, and so at one and the same time I am strongly supporting his contention but just trying to put it somewhat into perspective.

Mr. Speaker, the only point I want to address myself to, and I guess it’s more in the form of a question than in the form of a comment, is with respect to those injured workers who are on partial permanent disability pensions. I am not able to understand as clearly as I would like to the way in which this bill assists those kinds of workers. It was brought up last night by one of the members of the third party -- and I am sorry I can’t recall which member -- that the particular salary range on which, as I understand it, permanent partial disability payments are made, are not always the fairest way of dealing with the situation.

If you take a worker who was injured in 1972, or 1973, or whatever year you choose to pick, and recognize that his disability pension is based upon his earnings at that particular point in time, and even though there are periodic percentage increases there still seems to be a considerable disproportion, and I would suggest, Madam Minister, a disservice to that worker in respect of what he potentially could be earning at this point in time, even assuming he stayed at that same job, even if we assume that there were no potential increases in his particular status, that he hadn’t moved, let’s say, into the position of a foreman or a supervisory officer at some point in time.

The question I would like to address to the minister is, has this particular factor been given any serious consideration and to what extent, because I quite admit I can’t understand directly how the bill relates to that particular factor.

The second point I would like to ask the minister about is to what extent this bill in any way relates to that same person on a permanent partial disability with respect to his inability to get another job. I am sure the minister is well aware of the number of such persons who come to our attention as members of this Legislature who in desperation say: “I have tried everything. I have tried to get light work. I have tried to get part-time work.” Even though the message has supposedly gone out from the ministry that employers are under some obligation to provide some assistance to this person, I simply can’t get it.

I know there is a provision at the present time that a person who is still in the process of looking for work will get a larger compensation benefit, but I also understand there is a limit to that, that at some point in time this appears to be cut off. I would like some explanation from the minister to what extent that factor is covered in this bill; and thirdly, speaking again to the same group of people, to what extent people who have been on permanent partial disability pensions for quite a long period of time before the particular practice that I just described came into force.

I understand it is a fairly recent innovation with the compensation board; it has only been in the last short period of time. It is not my understanding that it does cover people who date back a couple of years.

[12:15]

Quite frankly, with respect to this bill I am dealing with a very narrow group of people, but it has been my experience as a member of this Legislature that it is that particular group of people with which I have had the greatest difficulty in providing some assistance. They simply seemed to be locked into a system and into a structure that has no way out. With all the goodwill in the world on everyone’s part, the system doesn’t seem to work for those people. They are perhaps in more desperate straits than almost anyone else. I would appreciate it if the minister could address herself to that.

Hon. B. Stephenson: It has been an interesting experience, to say the least, to hear the presentations of all the members in both parties on the opposite side of the House over the last several hours.

There have been some interesting suggestions and some queries about the scope of the bill which is before us. I would remind honourable members that the scope of this bill is necessarily limited. It is limited specifically to increasing benefit levels for those who receive benefits from the Workmen’s Compensation Board on