LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 2 March, 1982 Time - 8:00 p.m. THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): On the Motion of the Honourable Member for The Pas and the proposed amendment by the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. The Honourable Member for River East. MR. PHIL EYLER (River East): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, I would like to congratulate you on your election to the highest position of this Assem­ bly. Your reputation for fair play and honestjudgment, I'm sure, can only enhance the position you hold. As a first-time Member of the Legislative Assembly, Mr.

Speaker, I am sure that I will need your assistance and guidance when, from time to time, I stray from the accepted procedures of the House. I would also like to congratulate the First Minister on his re-election to the Legislative Assembly and I do not envy him his tasks. His burdens will be heavy and I'm sure that some of the members opposite will do their best to make the burdens heavier. I feel it is my responsibility to make those burdens lighter when­ ever and wherever I can. I would also like to take this opportunity to congrat­ ulate returning members of this House on their re­ election.

I would especially like to congratulate the large number of new members on both sides of this House with whom I feel that special bond common to novices. I would also like to take this opportunity to congrat­ ulate the Mover for his fine speech, fine presentation and informative description of his riding. Similarly, I would like to congratulate the Seconder of the Throne Speech and thank him for his sobering thoughts on the moral responsibilities of legislators. Mr. Speaker, it is indeed an honour to serve in this House.

I humbly hope that I can maintain the high standards set by my predecessors, the former Premier Ed Schreyer, and the present Minister of Labour and Finance. Je suis heureux de constater que dans cette cham­ bre nous retrouvons plusieurs representants de la mosa"ique multiculturelle manitobaine. II y a des franco-manitobains, des deputes de descendance ukrainienne, autochtone, polonaise et romande. De plus, nous retrouvons un immigrant recent dans la personne du depute de Burrows. Malheureusement, Monsieur le president, je dois mettre fin a cette

partie de mon discours inaugural afin que les deputes en face puissent comprendre pleinement tout ce que j'ai a dire aujourd'hui. At this time, Mr. Speaker, I would like to acquaint you with the new constituency of River East which I serve. River East was carved from the north half of o!d Rossmere riding in North Kildonan; it is a suburban constituency on the northeastern fringe of Winnipeg. As a bedroom constituency River East shares many other concerns with suburban ridings. An unusually high number, Mr.

Speaker, 55 percent of the people in my constituency rent their homes and apartments. 66 Rapidly rising rents sometimes justifiable, sometimes not, are a threat to these people, especially those on fixed incomes. Consequently, I am happy to see that this government is willing to bring forward rent review legislation. We recognize that some increase in rent is inevitable with the cost of living increases we've seen recently, however, we must be sure that there are no unjustifiable increases in rents which take place.

The 45 percent of the residents of River East who are lucky enough to own their homes, fully or partially, are also threatened, Mr. Speaker. Skyrocke ting mort­ gage rates are threatening to force many people from their homes. I am pleased that we can provide some assistance to those who are most threatened with the loss of their homes, but we must always bear in mind that this is a temporary one shot affair and we can not continue mortgage assistance well into the future. The major responsibility for the hardships which so many homeowners are suffering lies directly with the Federal Government.

We must all continue to point out the foolish and fallacious thin king which underlies their policies. There are many inequities in the sys­ tem; we are now approaching a duel mortgage system in which corporate giants are turning increasingly to foreign lenders for low interest rate loans. Just last week Trizec borrowed millions of dollars from foreign lenders at less than ten percent. I would ask you, Mr. Speaker, where is the justice in a system in which large corporate giants can borrow their mortgage money at half the rate that small homeowners must pay to the banks.

Clearly we must continue to press for a rational, made-in-Canada, interest rate policy. Another element of the Throne Speech which is of particular interest to the homeowners of River East is the one year review of education financing. River East was hit hard by last year's changes in education financing. When the previous government abolished the Greater Winnipeg Education Levy, River East School Division lost $2,350,000 in property taxes from the commercial property spread out throughout the City of Winnipeg. This loss had to made up from increased property taxes in our constituency. Mr.

Speaker, River East has the second lowest expenditure per pupil on education in the City of Win­ nipeg, and yet it has the second highest property tax rate for education purposes in the city. In fact a middle class house, worth about $65,000 in River East, pays $100 a year more in taxes than an identical house in St. James or Fort Garry. Clearly, Mr. Speaker, there is a need for reform, people should not be penalized for living in River East. We must devise some means of equalizing school taxes in Winnipeg.

The present system whereby commercial property pay school tax only to the school division in which it is located is unfair, it is unworkable and it is unjustifiable. School divisions, such as St. James and Fort Garry, which are rich in business property and industrial parks levy much lower school taxes. The whole con­ cept behind zoning and setting aside industrial parks is to locate industrial development in special areas away from our bedroom communities. It is only fair that the whole city should share in the property taxes

Tuesday, 2 March, 1982 generated by industries which help employ people throughout the city. The residents of River East are looking forward to reforms in education financing which will bring their property taxes into line with other school divisions in Winnipeg. I am particularly pleased to see that the government will be reviewing this problem and that extra financial assistance will be given to River East School Division in the upcoming year to tide the school division over until an equitable new system of education financing can be devised. A further issue, Mr.

Speaker, which is of concern in my constituency is that of urban transportation. There is still a disturbing tendency in Winnipeg toward con­ structing massive freeways which slice through the hearts of our neighbourho ods, while millions and mil­ lions of dollars, public money, is requested to build these freeways. The City of Winnipeg has neglected its public transit system. In the past years, Winnipeg transit fares have doubled and the number of bus riders has dropped.

The rising cost of bus fares dis­ courages the use of public transportation, encour­ ages the use of cars which congest our main tho­ roughfares and hits hard at those who have no alternative to public transportation. We question the value of block funding to the City of Winnipeg. We have reinstituted conditional grants for public transit. The primary condition is that fares remain frozen for this year. I am confident that this approach will go far in providing an inexpensive and well used alternative to the increasingly unmanagea­ ble clutter of cars on our streets. I regret to say, Mr.

Speaker, that yesterday the Honourable Leader of the Opposition belittled our government for freezing transit fares. He scoffed at our measures. It may well be that the residents of the golden ghetto in which he lives have little interest in such matters, but I can assure him that the senior citizens and the low income fami­ lies in my constituency are vitally interested in this issue. These programs, Mr. Speaker, rent review, mort­ gage assistance, education finance reform and the freezing of Winnipeg transit fares are of direct and immediate concern to the people of River East.

They are nevertheless measures of public administration efficiency and social equity. A much more pressing long-term problem, Mr. Speaker, is the necessity of coming to grips with eco­ nomic stagnation. It is our duty to stimulate growth in the Manitoba economy and ensure future prosperity for all Manitobans. We have found during the past four years that blind faith in the virtues and efficiencies of private enterprise will not provide the necessary sub­ stance for economic development. To this end, the New Democratic Party is prepared, indeed it is anx­ ious to take an active role in the economy.

Government involvement in the economy is not only a philosophical desire of the NOP , it also a prag­ matic necessity. It is a pragmatic necessity which was recognized by Conservative Governments in Mani­ toba as well as the rest of Canada many years ago. There is no doubt many members on the Opposition benches who would criticize our active role in the economy, but I would remind that it was a Conserva­ tive government which set up the Manitoba Tele­ phone System in 1907, and what a spectacular success 67 it was. We now enjoy some of the lowest telephone rates in North America. Mr.

Speaker, it was also a Conservative government which set up a government-owned and operated grain elevator system for Manitoba farmers in 1909. rt didn't fare so well. It went bankrupt in a few years at a loss of a few million dollars to the people of Manitoba, but it was a good try. It was a worthwhile effort in the field of public enterprise. It was also a Conservative government which set up a publicly-owned abbatoir, a slaughterhouse in St. Boniface for the farmers of Manitoba in 1913. It was a Conservative government which set up Ontario Hydro. The list goes on and on, Mr. Speaker.

And yes, it was even a Conservative government in Ontario which, before World War I, set up the first government-owned and operated mining enterprise in Canada. These were the days, Mr. Speaker, when the Con­ servative party was truly progressive, in fact, if not in name. There's also no coincidence, Mr. Speaker, that these were the days when Canada's economic growth had its highest rate in history, and it is this practice of pragmatic government involvement in the economy which we wish to carry forward.

Well-chosen govern­ ment initiatives are essential if we are to have eco­ nomic growth and stable and adequate government revenues in Manitoba. The key area where govern­ ment must become involved is in the development of Manitoba's natural resources. In particular, we have singled out oil and minerals. These are the areas where profits are large and, indeed, they are often excessive. If we are ever to approach a balanced budget in Manitoba, we will have to recapture a larger part of the profits which are being earned by these resources.

We are therefore anxious to invest public money in joint ventures in oil and mineral exploration. If this means borrowing money, Mr. Speaker, then so be it. There isn't a company in North America that doesn't borrow money to make money. We already have a proven record of success in Manitoba Mineral Resources Ltd. No doubt you will remember, Mr. Speaker, in the last days of the Schreyer Administra­ tion in 1977, Manitoba Mineral Resources found a major copper-zinc ore body at Trout Lake, only a few miles from Flin Flon.

For years, exploration geologists from HBM & S, and lots of other multinational corpo­ rations had tramped over the same ground and missed the ore body, but your public enterprise found it. When this mine goes into production next year, it will create 80 to 90 new jobs, and in the years to follow will provide millions of dollars of profits to the govern­ ment coffers of Manitoba. I am therefore delighted to hear in the Throne Speech, Mr. Speaker, that the government will be keeping as large a share as possible at the Trout Lake Mine, and I look forward indeed, Mr.

Speaker, to many more Trout Lake Mines in the years to come. What we have done with minerals in the shield, Mr. Speaker, we can also do with oil on the prairies, and perhaps even oil and gas along Hudson Bay. There is no economic, or even political, reason why Manitoba should not have a government-owned oil company entering into joint ventures in the same successful manner in which Manitoba Mineral Resources has performed.

Tuesday, 2 March, 1982 Canada has its PetroCan; Saskatchewan has its SaskOil; Ontario has 25 percent of SUNOCO. an Ontario Government oil company; Alberta has 50 per­ cent of Alberta Energy Corporation. I would wonder. Mr. Speaker. if the leader of the opposition would call the Premiers of Alberta and Ontario knee-jerk socialists. It was interesting to note that just today, the Hon­ ourable Member for Lakeside that he saw some value in the government enterprises which have been set up in the past. and yet I have heard no concessions from the Leader of the Opposition. I would wonder. Mr.

Speaker, if there is a split in the ranks opposite. If so. I would suggest that the Honourable Member for Lake­ side would make much better leade rship potential for his party. Mr. Speaker, the Ontario Energy Corporation has just grabbed the largest oil lease in Canada - 72 million acres - and this oil exploration lease lies in Manitoba's own backyard. Beginning next summer, the Ontario Gove rnment in its consortium with private enterprise will spend $7 .6 million in oil and gas explo­ ration off the coast of Manitoba in Hudson Bay. Why shouldn't Manitoba have ManOil?

The Hon­ ourable Leader of the Opposition says the govern­ ment should not be involved in high-risk oil explora­ tion. I say we're already involved whether we like it or not, and whether we participate or not. Everyday, every dry hole that is drilled by private enterprise is a massive tax write-off. In fact, Mr. Speaker, Dome Pet­ roleum even makes a profit from drilling dry holes in the Arctic by taking tax write-offs, and it makes a profit from the Public Treasury of Canada.

If governments are already losing tax dollars for private enterprise's dry holes. then it is about time governments started taking a share in the profits of successful wells. That's why Manitoba needs ManOil. We are under no illusions that there any massive oil pockets just waiting to be discovered under Manitoba. There are. however, many small pools which can be cheaply and profitably exploited. An allocation of $5 million a year for oil exploration in joint venture with private enterprise. Mr. Speaker, is a realistic figure. given our potential.

At the same time. joint ventures will spread the risk over many sites and maximize the potential for discoveries. Yesterday. the Honourable Leader of the Opposi­ tion said that a major part of our program was increased spending. Mr. Speaker, a little spending can go a long way. If the former Premier had spent $6.5 million in 1978 to acquire an addit ional 50 percent interest in Tantalum Mining Corporation, the people of Manitoba would have earned $7.5 million in the remainder of his brief administration. But no. the former premier made a dogmatic. rather than a prag­ matic decision. Mr. Speaker.

Otto von Bismarck had a motto. He said, "Only fools say they learn from their mistakes. I learn from the mistakes of others." Living by this motto. Bismarck enjoyed a long period of polit­ ical influence. I can assure you, Mr. Speaker. we have learned much from the mistakes of the previous administ ration. This government will not squander its opportunities to make profitable employment-creating investments in the natural resources wealth of this province. In sum. Mr. Speaker. I feel very strongly that it is 68 essential that government become actively involved in resource development in Manitoba.

This is the only way we will ever have the money to provide the social services which Manitobans need and deserve. Bear­ ing in mind the traditions on both sides of this House. of strong government-interventionist roles in the economy, I hope that the members opposite will offer constructive criticisms for our programs. I do not ask them to join us. We are not a government in the tradi­ tion of Premier John Bracken. However, with so many new members. I would hope that the days of knee-jerk rhetoric and meaningless innuendo are gone. Mr.

Speaker. it is time for the new members of this House to set aside past failures. whether they be the Conservative Party's Manitoba Gove rnment Elevators or the NDP's Saunders Aircraft. We must recognize the successes of the past: Manitoba Gove rnment Telephones, Manitoba Hydro and. yes. Manitoba Mineral Resources. It is only by building on our past successes that we can direct ourselves towards a bet­ ter tomorrow. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. HON. WARREN STEEN (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, may I begin like so many others have and offer my sincere congratulations to you upon being named Speaker of this Legislative Assembly. I can recall being here in 19 76, Sir, when you were made Chair­ man of the Committee of the Whole, and when this House at that time decided that it would be better if we had the Estimates done half inside the House and half outside the House in Room 254. At that particular time, Sir.

I recall you were named the Chairman of the second committee and I recall working with you as a member of a number of those committees and at all times, I was of the opinion, Sir, that you were an excellent chairman and a most fair Chairman, particu­ larly with the opposition members. I would also, Mr. Speaker, like to congratulate the Member for Flin Flon who sits one seat removed from me to my left, upon being named Deputy Speaker. a position which as you know, Mr. Speaker, he got his fi rst taste of acting as Deputy Speaker just yesterday.

I'm sure that anytime in the future that the Honourable Member for Flin Flon substitutes for you, Sir, that he will do an excellent job. As so many persons have made reference, Sir, to the mover and the seconder, the Member for The Pas and the Member for Burrows, I too, compliment them on their excellent presentations of last Friday.

As so many members have done, Sir, I would like to say a word of welcome to the 20-some-odd new members from the government side and certainly the four new members that share this side of the House with me. and particularly pleased to see so many female members in the House this particular time, Sir. We have always had a female member within the House in the past to the best of my knowledge, and we, of course, were well-served by Mrs. Price when she was with us in representing the Constituency of Assiniboia and. of course. I'm sitting in the seat that Mrs.

Westbury occupied last year and on Thursday last at the reception after the Throne Speech was delivered, she came over to tell me that she wanted

Tuesday, 2 March, 1982 this seat to be well looked after and to be well repres­ ented. I tried to tell her that the Attorney-Gene ral really represents the area that she used to be and that seats don't really matter all that much, but during the past years, Sir, we have had, as I say, a number of women serve in this Legislature and it's certainly nice that we have as many as we do have in this particular year.

During the past six years, Sir, it's been my privilege to represent the Constituency of Crescentwood, that constituency was in existence for some 11 years; prior to me it was represented by the NOP members in the Legislature. But the Crescentwood area is an area that I grew up in. My parents still reside in the area and I have said many, many times in the past, my father practised dentistry in the area for over 52 years. So, the family was well-known in the Crescentwood area and it was a privilege and a pleasure for me, Sir, to have represented that constituency in this Legislature for the past six years.

Now I have the honour of representing part of the Crescentwood area, but a newer area called River Heights and I took approximately 50 percent of my Crescentwood Constituency into the new Consti­ tuency of River Heights, which by the way, Sir, is the largest constituency in the province in relation to population; it's my privilege to represent that particu­ lar seat now.

In the past, River Heights, Sir, has been represented by a number of excellent members starting back in 19 58 when the seat was created by Bill Scarth and then followed by the late Maitland Steinkopf, who I'm sure a number of members present will remember, and then Sid Spivak, and then my colleague Gary Filmon. So as you can see, Sir, the constituency has been represented by some excellent members in the past. -(Interje ction)- My colleague, the Member for Lakeside says, Sir, that the court is still out on Mr. Filmon.

Well, Sir, it's my privilege this evening to participate in the Throne Speech Debate, as is the opportunity for a number of members to do so; we begin here in Manitoba now as the people have the opportunity to consider it, to consider and evaluate this new govern­ ment over the next four years or thereabouts.

The Leader of the Opposition mentioned in his speech yeste rday, Sir, that there were really three main themes as he could see it, in the Speech from the Throne and that was increased government spending, more centralization in the way of government control, and then more government ownership of our econ­ omy. It's this centralization of government control which I wish to address a few remarks to this evening, Sir, and particularly in the area of Urban Affai rs. The previous speaker for River East made reference to block funding.

Well, Sir, I can recall as a City Councillor, both with the former City of Winnipeg and the new City of Win­ nipeg which the NOP government of the past created in 19 71, attending many meetings within the urban sphere - whether it be the Manitoba Urban Associa­ tion or whether it be the Mayors and Reeves Associa­ tion from across Canada - and the main theme that all councillors and aldermen at these various meet­ ings were trying to project, Sir, was that they wanted to have greater control over the city's affairs in which 69 they represented.

We in this side of the House when we were government, recognized this fact and did all we could in the way of giving the City of Winnipeg greater control over their day-to-day affairs; the one way that we thought best to give them greater control was the use of block funding, where we gave them a lump sum of money and they operated the city and made the decisions from day to day as to which streets were to be improved and which park systems were going to be enhanced, etc., Sir.

I take exception to the fact that this government claims, on one hand, that by discontinuing block fund­ ing they're really not interfering with the City of Win­ nipeg's operations. I believe, Sir, that they are, espe­ cially when they attach riders to the grants that they give to the City of Winnipeg. It was this government, as I said, Sir, that created the new City of Winnipeg - Unicity, as it is so well known. Perhaps the second time around they are going to want to run the City of Winnipeg from Broadway Avenue.

I believe, Sir, that the City of Winnipeg enjoys some very competent councillo rs, an excellent Mayor and the Board of Con­ trol that the City, the Board of Commissioners are made up of some excellent public servants backed by some 8,000 employees that run Manitoba's largest city in a very efficient manner, Sir, and I would hope that the controls placed on the City of Winnipeg by this government would be kept to a minimum, because I believe, Sir, that the people at City Hall in the City of Winnipeg are very competent and capable and can run their own affairs.

The recent grant to the City of Winnipeg which had the attached rider that bus fares should not be increased. Surely to goodness, Sir, I would think that people like Rick Borland, who is the director of Transit System for the city can make a fair and equitable recommendation to the Board of Commissioners, who in turn would pass that recommendation on to the councillo rs; they would take into account as the Member for River East made reference to, the rider usage of the transit system as well as the fares being charged in other cities and the costs of running the Transit System.

Just yesterday, Sir, the price of gaso­ line in Winnipeg grows again, which I'm sure it's going to continue to rise with sharp increases in the future, and surely to goodness, with parking spaces down­ town selling now for a premium, more and more of our citizens are going to start to use public transit in the future, and the ridership should increase in the future. Winnipeg does, in my opinion, Sir, enjoy an excellent Transit System. I have ridden on transit systems in other major Canadian cities and I think that Winnipeg enjoys one of the best systems.

There are many, many routes within that system that are far, far from ever paying their own way. In fact, I believe that there are only two routes within the Transit System that come anywhere near paying their own way, and that's the Portage Avenue West one and the Pembina University one, and only during the university term does that one ever come near paying its own way. Also, Sir, I would like to make some comments about the Core Area Initiative Plan.

During the past election campaign, the now Deputy Minister of Urban Affairs who was an opponent of mine, made the statement a number of times at public meetings that the Conservative Government has no intention of ful-

Tuesday, 2 March, 1982 filling its obligations regarding the Winnipeg Core Area Initiative Plan. Well, I know that is was some time before the election that the then Attorney-General and Minister of Urban Affairs, the now member for St. Norbert, had signed the agreement and he told me, and I have no reason to doubt him, that he signed it in good faith, and a Conservative Government would have kept its commitment of one-third of the financing towards that Core Area Initiative Plan.

Well, the purpose of the Core Area Initiative Plan, Sir, and as I said, has the three levels of government, the federal government, the province and the City of Winnipeg as three-way partners of a $96 million pack­ age of improvements for the inner-city portions of the City of Winnipeg. It goes back to 1974 when the Government of Canada at that time and the Province of Manitoba entered into an agreement to implement specific economic and social-economic initiatives within the Province of Manitoba.

So the Core Area Initiative Program, Sir, has been going on for a long time; actually that agreement was signed and com­ pleted by the Schreyer NOP government. And we on this side of the House have always recognized that the core areas of Winnipeg must be improved and en­ hanced if Winnipeg as a city is going to survive and grow.

Many of my constituents, Sir, operate businesses, or are employed by businesses that are in the core area of the City of Winnipeg, and it's to their better­ ment to see that the core area of the City of Winnipeg is improved and enhanced, because down in this so­ called core area, Sir, we have, from the residents that live there, perhaps the highest rate of unemployment of any area within the Province of Manitoba. We have economic disparities. We have a greater number of elderly persons living in that area than in relation to other areas of the city.

We have poor quality housing, and we have a shortage in the way of recreation and community facilities. Well, when it comes to poor quality housing, Sir, it was my privilege back in 1970 when I was elected to City Council, to work with people, for example, like the late Lloyd Stinson and the former Winnipeg police chief, Bob Taft, on the Urban Affairs Committee. We tried to initiate some urban renewal in the Point Dou­ glas area and in certain areas around Dufferin School, etc.

Also when you discuss community and recreation facilities, Sir, I was at that time the Chairman of the city's Parks and Recreation Committee, and I was also a member of the Kinsmen Club of Winnipeg. I think in my eleven years in public life, perhaps my greatest accomplishment was in convincing the Kinsmen Club of Winnipeg to put up a $1 00,000 towards the renova­ tion of the former Midland Railway Freight Sheds, which today is beside Dufferin School and is an excel­ lent community and recreation facility for the people in that particular area.

I have visited the facility on a number of times, and of course, each year when we have our annual summer festival, usually one of the ethnic communities occupies that particular facility as its pavillion; it is serving and has served the people of that area for the last six or seven years and will continue to serve them for years to come. There are a good number of people in that particular area, in the Dufferin School area, the Logan Avenue area, that I 70 know do enjoy that particular facility.

The areas of improvement, Sir, according to the Core Area Initiative Program which I've been discuss­ ing, is the Logan industrial development area. Hope­ fully a technical training center would be established there. As I say, there are a number of people in the area that are unemployed. There are a number of Native people in the area that need upgrading in their educational standards so that they can be gainfully employed in the future; this is a center that would assist such people greatly.

Then we have the north of Portage redevelopment area, Sir; that area between Portage Avenue and Notre Dame, Sir, needs a lot of upgrading. The City of Win­ nipeg some ten years ago, purchased most of the property that is bounded by the streets of Portage Avenue, Ellice Avenue, Carlton and Hargrave across from the Free Press Building. They were going to at that time back in 1970, establish a public parking gar­ age there. Later that plan was done away with, and as we all know today, the Trizec parking complex is at Portage and Main; but the City of Winnipeg has remained the owners of most of that property.

It is the hope that someday, Sir, we will have a park fronting onto Portage Avenue, and that park would extend from Portage Avenue right through to what is now called Central Park. So therefore, the park would extend from Portage right through to Cumberland Street, Sir, some three blocks in length. I'm sure that you and others have been in other cities such as Reg­ ina, where right in the heart of downtown Regina exists a one-block park. Another one exists in the City of Montreal, and so on. Ottawa, of course, Sir, is, as I say, loaded with public green spaces in its downtown area.

So hopefully, Sir, the North of Portage Redevel­ opment Plan will go ahead and we can get some peo­ ple coming back to downtown Winnipeg to do their shopping, and get people feeling safe in coming downtown, that the streets are safe and the streets are good and clean, and that we've got good, enthusiastic store and shop owners out there trying to encourage the people to shop in downtown Winnipeg, because our downtown has been suffering greatly in the past number of years.

It would be wonderful, Sir, if we could some day see that weather-protected pedes­ trian system that exists on the south side of Portage where today you can go virtually from the Grain Exchange Building almost to the Hudson's Bay store with all weather-protected pedestrian system either below grade or above grade. If this system were ever extended to north of Portage I think you would see the growth and the redevelopment of the north side of Portage Avenue would be greatly enhanced. Then, Sir, there's the discussion of the C.N. East Yards, and the great historical junction of the Red and the Assiniboine River.

Governments of the past have been purchasing property along that river with the idea of reclaiming the river ban k and having it for public purposes. And, of course, we've all heard of the involvement that the Great-West Life Assurance Company would like to have in the east yards area, along with the C.N. itself. If we could ever redevelop the C.N. yards area into housing stock, whether it be walk-up housing or high-rise apartments, I'm sure the member who represents Fort Rouge knows what it's like to be in a high-rise-apartment developed area.

Tuesday, 2 March, 1982 When we talk of high densities, I don't think there's a greater area of density than the Roslyn Road, Roslyn Crescent area, and it would be ideal if we could see in the future some high-rise development into the C.N. East Yards area for the future, so that further devel­ opment in the Roslyn Road area wouldn't take place and add to the congestion that exists in that particular area as it is now. Then, of course, there's tremendous recreation potential for the area in the C.N. East Yards.

And then, Sir, we have the historical area within that report and that's the upgrading the the Bannatyne area and the old Market Square. I'm sure all members of this house who do visit that downtown area have seen in the past the imp rovements that have been made behind the City Hall and the Old Market Square; if you ever go down there Sir, on a Sunday afternoon, or on a holiday afternoon, and see the beehive of activity; I think it's just wonderful, and we get people from all walks of life within the Province of Manitoba that have in the past taken advantage of that redeve­ loped area.

In fact, my friend and colleague, the Member for Minnedosa's two daughters in the past, Sir, have operated a Taco stand down there and done extremely well, and have gone on to serve the City of Winnipeg. Sir, then there's the Main Street development area. I'm sure that a number of members of this Legislative Assembly who have been here in the past, Sir, have seen the plans that the Chinese community of Win­ nipeg have to redevelop the six-block area known as Chinatown within Winnipeg. I don't think there is a greater grouping of people than the Chinese when it comes to being enterprising.

These are people that want to redevelop their own area; they want to do it with the minimum amount of government assistance; they want to do it with their own private initiative and, of course, they will get thei r financial assistance from Chinese people of other communities other than the City of Winnipeg. They have some excellent plans for that area, Sir. They currently do have an excellent senior citizens home, but they would like to enhance the area, make improvements in restaurants, have additional housing for their own people and educa­ tional facilities.

The Chinese community in Winnipeg is a small community in numbers of persons. I recall, Sir, that the late Mr.Dojack, a Main Street business merchant who recently passed away, used to make regular appearances at City Hall before var­ ious committees, asking that the Main Street area be upgraded, whether it be increased police protection, or whether it be cleaner and better streets, some benches, some parks. In the past, as you well know, Sir, a number of old buildings in that Main Street area have been demolished and a park-like area has gone in.

You can drive down Main Street, and at the corner of Logan and Main now, you can see a small park on the corner which once stood an old building, and the residents of the area certainly make good use of it. I never go by, Sir, without seeing someone sitting on the bench or sleeping on the benches. It's an area that has to be increased, or be redeveloped where the development is started, but it must continue.

So, Sir, in the past 10 years, we haven't seen too much in the way of accomplishments in the urban 71 area and the redevelopment, but hopefully with this Core Area Initiative Plan and co-operation of three levels of government in the next ten years, we'll see much, much more progress. Sir, the Throne Speech made reference to Day Care and Community Child Standards Act. I'd like to take a moment and make a comment or two about day care in the Province of Manitoba.

As was pointed out by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday, the Board of Directors of any day care centre is made up of at least 80 percent of the parents of the youngsters that are using that facility. So they are the majority of the Board, and only 20 percent can be made up of staff persons.

So, when it comes to setting standards as to how the day care centre should be run, its program­ ming, etc., Sir, I would think that the parents by having the voice of 80 percent would set standards that they feel are high enough, and I question whether we need a day care standards act when we've got the parents' involvment. I believe it was the Member for the Pas the other day when he was moving the Throne Speech, that said he believed in the family unit; I'm sure all Members within the Chamber believe in the family unit.

Here's a case, Sir, where we have the parents of the persons using the facilities heavily involved in the operation of the facilities, and I would hope that if the government goes ahead and does introduce this day care stand­ ards act, that they would not turn off or discourage the parental guidance given by the various parents that serve on these boards. It was mentioned after the Trone Speech by Sid Green, a former Member of the Legislatu re, that he was concerned about the building up of the govern­ ment bureauc racy.

Well, if we have a day care stand­ ards act, Sir, and we have a raft of day-care-centre inspectors who are currently not employed by the government, but in order to implement such

an act and to administer it is going to take a number of persons. Therefore, we're going to be increasing the number of people working for government, and I question, as I said, Sir, Whether these people are necessary when we've got the parents involved in running these day care centres, from the point of view of being Board members.

I have, Sir, seen the day care centre in the Y.M.C.A. operate many times when I've been over there using the facilities of the Y.M.C.A., and if I'm a little late in the morning and I'm not fin­ ished my road work by 9:00 a.m. in the morning, 60- some-odd youngsters are out on the gym floor being supervised by approximately eight employees and are involved in an hour of recreation, then every afternoon they get 30 minutes within the pool area.

I couldn't think of a better day care center in which to have a youngster involved when you've got a gymnasium to be used and you've got a swimming pool in the after­ noon that these youngsters can be taught to swim, etc. During our four years in government, Sir, we more than tripled the funding for day care services and I remember when the Minister of Community Services was going through his estimates, the question was asked to him: "Can new day care centre facilities get the necessary funding and financing?" And his answer was that, "Yes, we have million in the budget.

We only expect to spend about three this year because the new

Tuesday, 2 March, 1982 day care centres aren't being established at the rate we thought they might have been and, therefore, we will have a surplus in the Capital fund which is thereto establish day care centers, Sir. So, I would hope that this government when they implement their Stand­ ards Act will not lose the volunteer involvement of the parents in these various day care centre boards. Sir, there's been much said about major projects by other speakers in this Legislative Assembly.

My col­ league, the Member for Lakeside, made reference to the aluminum smelter and showed an advertisement from The Stonewall Argus placed by a number of concerned citizens who are very much wanting to see the aluminum smelter go ahead. The Member for Lakeside, Sir, made reference to some 700 permanent jobs that would be created by such an aluminum smel­ ter.

Well , I say to the First Minister that if 700 persons are employed in that aluminum smelter north of Teu­ lon, surely some of them will reside in the Town of Selkirk and spend their moneys and their disposable dollars with the various business merchants in the Town of Selkir k, as will be the case, Sir, in Teulon and Warren and Stonewall.

Some will reside in Winnipeg and, if they do, they'll likely reside in the northwest corner of the City of Winnipeg and these 700 people, Sir, will create increased spending in Manitoba which will help our economy; they will all be paying taxes which the government will certainly need the revenues. I believe that this government should do everything in its power to see that an aluminum smelter is pro­ ceeded with. If they don't like Alcan, hopefully, they can talk to one of the other firms, Reynolds Aluminum or someone else and encourage an aluminum smelter to come into Manitoba.

It's obvious that Alcan, to me anyways, doesn't want to establish a second smelter in the Province of Quebec. I'm sure they, like so many Canadians, have their wonders and their doubts about the shakiness of the Government of the Province of Quebec. They have a smelter in the Province of B.C., I think Manitoba, being in the centre, is an ideal spot for them to locate. We have the hydro power that they want and need and we could proceed with the construction of Limestone which I would like to point out, Sir, was stopped by the former NOP Government, it was not stopped by us.

If we could proceed with the Limestone development we'd have over 2,200 persons working on the con­ struction, on the site, during the construction for a two-year period and all of those workers would be sending their cheques back to southern Manitoba or to other communities in northern Manitoba, perhaps to Thompson, and the spending power within these communities would all be enhanced if we proceeded with the Limestone development. Also, Sir, I would hope that this government will continue the discussions with the provinces of Sas­ katchewan and Alberta to see that the Western Power Grid does proceed.

We, in Manitoba have that great resource of hydro-electric power and I hope this government will not waste it, that they will go out and make every effort to see that there are markets for this hydro power, whether it be sold to some of the power companies in the northern United States, whether it be sold to Ontario or sold to Saskatchewan and Alberta or whether it be sold to Alcan. What we want is customers for hydro and hydro is one of our greatest 72 natural resources.

I would hope that this government, Sir, would proceed and proceed as quickly as possible to seeing that our development of hydro is increased in the years to come.

Well, Sir, I have touched on a few aspects and areas of interest and I would say to the Minister of Education who is the Member for Logan that I noticed on the news tonight at supper hour that some of the residents meeting in the Logan area are a little upset over the city's expropriation plans of some 260 pieces or par­ cels of property within the area. but I would hope that she will resist some of the pressures that these various people put on and that we will see the Logan industrial area proceeded with, Sir, as all areas of the Core Area Initiative Plans.

I would also ask and hope that the Minister of Com­ munity Services would move very carefully with his implementation of the Standards Act in relation to day care and I would hope that the Premier and the Minis­ ter of Energy would continue and make every effort possible to see that the Limestone development does go ahead and that we do have an aluminum smelter in the Province of Manitoba in the near future. Thank you, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. MRS. MURIEL SMITH, Minister of Economic Devel­ opment and Tourism (Osborne): In this, my inaugural speech, Mr.

Speaker, I wish to follow tradition and congratulate you most warmly on your election as Speaker of this House. I know we can count on your wise council so that the business of the House can be conducted with a minimum of rancor and a maximum of constructive debate. I assure you of my complete co-operation. I also wish to acknowledge the gracious role of the Lieutenant-Governor, Pearl McGonigal, who's being carrying out her duties with such competence, warmth and personal charm. It's an honour for me to serve this House.

I'm here, as are the rest of you, in large part because of the hard work that we've done in our constituencies, getting to know their concerns, winning their confidence in our ability to do something about those concerns. But we're also here, and certainly I am. because we believe most profoundly in the importance and the value of open democratic debate and in the vision, the philo­ sophy and the programs of our particular party. There are many ideologies, Mr. Speaker. We know that we have an ideology.

We know that good ideological the­ ory leads to good practice and a coherent approach to government leads to good results. I know we don't all agree but we can share a genuine commitment to sincere and careful debate spiced, I hope, wit and humour. but debate that clearly outlines the different visions, the different values, the different understand­ ings, as to which laws, which social and economic measures can best build a just, humane and vibrant Manitoba. The Government side of the House may be in power but we do not know everything.

We are not infallible; we know there are many ideologies, not just a single one, or a single truth, referred to by the Leader of the Opposition. We welcome constructive opposition, the

Tuesday, 2 March, 1982 jostling of our collective arm. I can assure you that I shall be listening carefully to the arguments pres­ ented by the opposition and whenever I hear a sug­ gestion from the opposite side of the House that can strengthen, or make more effective a government program, I shall work to incorporate that improvement. My personal commitment, and that of my govern­ ment, to open discussion and debate extends well beyond this House.

To the extent our time and ener­ gies permit, we will keep an open door and open hearts and minds to the people of Manitoba through­ out the length and breadth of this Province and in every walk of life. I repeat, large open hearts, not the little fluttering faint hearts eluded to by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday. I represent the urban Constituency of Osborne. This is the first time an election has been fought within the new boundaries of Osborne, a very compact shaped constituency on the map. Osborne is split in half by the Pembina Highway and the C.N. mainline.

Each area of Osborne, Earl Grey, Lord Roberts and Riverview is, in fact, a distinct community with neigh­ bourhood life focusing on the local schools, parks and community centres and the main shopping streets of Corydon and Osborne South. There is, as well, a thriv­ ing strip of light industry and specialty stores and restauranmts streaching on both sides of Pembina Highway. I take particular pride in the community involve­ ment that occurs both in the schools and in the recrea­ tional activities throughout the area. Lord Roberts Community School deserves, I thin k, a special men­ tion.

It houses an integrated program for the handi­ capped, the Ellen Douglas School, within its walls. Not only has this program opened an opportunity appropriate to their needs to about 50 disabled child­ ren it is also, through skillful and wise outreach to the other child ren in the school and to the community beyond, set the pattern for true integ ration of the disabled into our community life. The Municipal Hospitals are on the eastern side of Osborne. For many years they were known as the place where polio victim received world class care and rehabilitation.

They also welcomed the services of an active and involved group of volunteers who have helped to make the spirit of the hospitals unique in Canada. This quality of service is an ironic contrast to the appearance of their aged buildings. These hospi­ tals currently aspire to becoming a geriatric and day rehabilitation hospital for the entire southern half of the city. Neither core area nor suburb Osborne is an area in transition. Almost one-third of its residents live in ren­ tal accomodation.

We have three large senior citizen residences plus a unique provincial institution, the Kiwanis Centre of the Deaf, where our deaf and hard of hearing friends find accommodation, employment and a full range of educational and recreational opportunities. Our householders are avid and imagin­ ative in thei r home imp rovement activities to the extent they can manage with the inflated prices and job uncertainities of today. Our small business are numerous and varied though they too are having spe­ cial difficulties with the tight economy. Osborne South has long been a service and shop­ ping centre.

The building of the St. Vital bridge at its 73 southern end has, however, upset many of the old stable patterns of people and traffic flow along both Jubilee Avenue and Osborn Street. This disruption presents particular difficulty in an established neighbourhood. Corydon Avenue at the northern end of the consti­ tuency has been undergoing impressive rejuvenation. The Italian community have been transforming the streets architecture with tasteful dark red brick arch storefronts as they expand the variety of goods and services that are readily available to our local customers. Osborne is, in

summary, a cross-section of Win­ nipeg, neither as hard hit as the Core of the city by urban blight, nor as prosperous and new as the sub­ urbs. Its people are a hardworking and independent lot but they clearly expect governments to act respon­ sibly, to manage the economy, and to plan the city, so that they can reasonably expect to find jobs to meet their rent or mortgage payments, to look after their homes and express their individu ality through them to raise and educate their families in a safe and healthy environment. The new government program should provide immediate help to the residents of Osborne.

The Rent Control Program will provide relief to single parents, to students and to elderly persons who lived on limited or fixed incomes. The Interest Rate Relief Programs will provide short-term assistance to homeowners and small business people who have, despite their best efforts, been slipping slowly behind in the strug­ gle to make ends meet while interest rates soar to criminally high levels. The extra grants for the education of Special Needs Child ren and for the relief of small schools in the City of Winnipeg will help keep Osborne schools in a state of health and effectiveness.

It is my hope that the Municipal Hospitals will see their planned renewal emba rked upon. Senior citizens will enjoy the start of the extension of Pharmacare services to cover eye­ glasses, hearing aids and dental services for those age 65 and over. Homeowners of limited means can apply for Critical Home Repair grants.

In the longer-run government's moves to stimulate the economy through fairer taxation, the building of hospitals, personal care homes and housing, and through an increased presence of the public in the orderly development of our energy, mineral and natu­ ral resources - that Honourable Members opposite is why $20 million is being spent on ManOil - so that the people of Manitoba can share in the benefit of that development. In the increase of minimum wage, in the fostering of small businesses, manufacturing and processing, will succeed in creating more jobs and more stable and adequate incomes. Mr.

Speaker, each member brings to this house a particular lens of personal perception through which all experience is filtered. In addition to our party phil­ osiphies we bring some personal priorities. We may all, on occasion, be tempted to present our party posi­ tions in extremes of black and white, though we may not on opposite sides of the House often agree as to which view is black and which is white. I think I heard a man of little faith over there thinking there would never be anything if you dug in the ground.

Tuesday, 2 March, 1982 Wait and see. We bring our personal experiences and points of view -(Interjection)- MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The Honourable Min­ ister may continue. MRS. SMITH: I thought I'd take some time out and polish the furniture. As well, we bring our personal experiences and points of view that lend a multico­ loured richness to our discussions, and I'd like to take this opportunity to share some of my personal colour themes with you. I was raised in a one-industry mining town; three of them, to be precise. Two of these are now ghost towns.

I am driven by the desire to find whether there are alternatives to that pattern of development, to one­ ind ustry resource development towns. I also grew up during wartime. I heard war news regularly; before breakfast, during lunch and last thing before going to bed at night for six long years. As children, we were remote from the actual events of war, but we were deeply affected by its horrors, its inhumanities, its propaganda and, yes, by its occasional moments of heroism and great purpose.

As a result of that child­ hood experience, I've tried to understand the causes of war, attitudinal and economic, and have committed myself to seeking out the causes of war and working to do my

part in removing those causes. People can live in peace and harmony, but to do so, many of our cherished attitudes and practices may have to change. I've also taken a particular interest in the special needs - emotional, physical, social and intellectual - of children. I've come to trust the inner process that unfolds within each human person; to respect its rhythms and its patterns; to do all I can to understand it and help create for all children the environment they require for healthy, positive growth.

This means look­ ing at how we respect and manage our reproductive functions; how we educate prospective parents; what nutrition and other supports we make available to pregnant and nursing mothers and young children. This means looking at houses, neighbourhoods and cities in terms of how we provide for the safe, healthy and active play of young children. This means review­ ing our child-care and education systems, so that each child gets the protection and support, the oppor­ tunities and the challenges, appropriate to their par­ ticular state of development, to their individual strengths and weaknesses.

If we want responsible, creative, innovative and co-operative adults, we would do well to look at how we treat our children in their most vulnerable years. "The child is father of the man" might better be stated, as we treat our children, so do we influence the kind of men and women they will become. The family will remain the basic environment for the child. But how can families be expected to perform their role effectively when they are oppressed by poor housing, inadequate income, job insecurities and a society that seems, too often to ignore, or even worse, to reject children with their special needs.

I was deeply touched, as I know all of you were, by my colleague, the Member for The Pas, in his reference to his own family and to his retarded son. I've seen his family coping beautifully with that special child and 74 my heart goes out to them, but they and other families like them need our help with counselling, day care, respite care, alternatives in accommodation and edu­ cation, so they can be free to perform their special family task of providing emotional support and close­ ness to all their special children. I have an abiding interest in teenage children.

I see many teenagers misunderstood in their efforts to achieve personal autonomy. I see many of our educa­ tional programs geared to what educators think tee­ nagers should be, rather than to what they actually are. I think many teenagers could profit from a richer blend of work and classroom activities, to better meet their strong social needs, their needs to establish themselves as separate persons, while still within a family setting.

I think people go on learning all their lives, but they learn best when they are seeking answers to questions they have posed, rather than being required to find answers to questions posed by others. I shall work for lifelong learning opportunities for all people, rather than reinforce our already heavy emphasis on the 6- to 18 - or 20-year-old life stage. Another strong personal interest of mine relates to the role of women in society and, beyond that, to the role of all groups who have lived and worked in ghet­ toes, or who have been excluded for whatever reason, from society's decision-making process.

I particularly welcome the presence on both sides of the House of my women colleagues, and on the government's side of my Native Indian colleague from Rupertsland, and of our colleague of Philippino extraction from Bur­ rows. I speak for all of us, from groups who are newly emerging into the political sphere, when I say that we want to be present when decisions are made, to con­ tribute the concerns and the special insights of the groups to which we belong. I do not wish to dwell on the attitudes and actions which may have excluded us in the past.

We, too, have held attitudes that suggested being on the inside, or shouldering the heaviest burdens was not yet for us. Hopefully, such negative attitudes are disappearing. I think now we are witnessing a new openness among all groups to become more inclusive.

As the Member for Burrows said, "Democracy requires that for a government to be responsive to all its citizens, it should also be representative of all its citizens." I look forward with confidence to receiving support from members on both sides of the House, for mea­ sures to improve the wages and the job opportunities of women, the income security of older women, as well for the measures to meet the special needs of our immigrant and Native populations.

While many of these measures will of necessity be economic, I invite all members to open to a fresh appreciation of the rich cultural contributions from the new groups we repre­ sent. I know there has been a great upsurge of writing, painting, composing and singing among women in recent years, and I know our ethnic brothers and sis­ ters have rich cultural heritages to share with us as well as living cultures. There's a temptation for some to view greater equality as a bitter pill they'd rather not swallow. In reality, if we can open up to the expe­ rience, it can bring great joy and aesthetic reward.

Many of these personal perspectives suggest a non­ economic approach, quite inappropriate to a Minister of Economic Development, if not necessarily to a Min-

Tu esday, 2 March, 1982 ister of Tourism. Quite the contrary, I believe our eco­ nomic activities exist to meet the human needs of people, all their needs, if possible, and if not all , then to meet the basic needs of all the people for food, clothing, shelter, health, education and employment ahead of the luxury needs of the few for exotic clo­ thing, foreign travel, oversize cars and houses.

I respect the sincerity of the members opposite in their trust in the open-market system; that measures that are good for bu siness are good for all the people as benefits trickle down and that the least government is the best government. But, Mr. Speaker, I simp ly do not agree with that approach. The Leader of the Opposition seems to assure the so-called free or private enterprise system is the only system that exists and that he and his colleagues know the truth about that system. Mr. Speaker, that attitude is simply, I won't say looney, but I will say narrow-minded.

There are many views as to what constitutes the best system, his view is only one. I think busi ness has a very important role to play in the economy. I'm impressed as I go about my daily departmental rounds and have very frank exchanges with a wide range of business people. I'm impressed with their enthusiasm and their commitment, with their desire to create thriving profitab le enterprises and I shall do all in my power to encourage them and to provide the healthiest possib le economic environ­ ment for their efforts.

We shall not always agree on our goals - govern­ ments concerns are very broad - nor in our interpre­ tations as to how the economy can be made to work better. Therefore, there wi ll be disagreement over some of the economic measures we choose to use. The proof will be in the results. We do not believe an open market really exists any­ more. Large monopoly companies and transnational companies dominate the market to the point that they exercise extraordinary influence on it, not complete control, because the world economy is so complex and so varied and changeable that no one can be said to be in full control.

Companies grow large as tech­ nologies become more costly and more complic ated. In their efforts to control change they build as much predictability into their operations as they can by con­ trol ling as many of the component parts as possib le from raw materials, through processing and distribu­ tion on to marketing. Who can blame them? But does that system bode well for the people of Manitoba? The resulting market is very unstable for the ordinary citi­ zen and it bestows its benefits very unequally on the people. That, Mr. Speaker, is why we are not content to rely upon it.

Continuing high levels of growth become a neces­ sity to deal with all the dislocations; continuing high levels of growth in an era where we know some resources are being depleted with no replacement yet on the scientific horizon, where we have concerns about environmental damage that is irreversible, or very costly to reverse, and where the supply demand market mechanism is supposed to determine what gets produced and what does not excludes from exer­ cising effective demand increasing numbers of the unemployed or underemployed, both at home and in nations abroad, partic ularly in third-world countries.

That, Mr. Speaker, is why we see the need for more 75 public invol vement, not for power in and of itself but to bring greater equity and fai rness into a system we currently see working to the disadvantage of the inc reasing numbers of people. Our argument is that system just does not work well enough to meet the proble ms of today and tomo rrow. We offer a different vision of the future.

What we need is not something so revolutionary or terrifying as a completely new system; we need a moderated system, a system where the public acting through their govern­ ment can manage the economy, set the prio rities for investment in selective areas of growth based on their best state of the assessment of the needs of all the people; we need a system that ensures a fair share of benefit for all the people from resource development, a system that plans for bala nced regional develop­ ment to offset the centralizing tendencies of the exist­ ing system.

We're not advocating a centralized system of government for its own sake, we're advocating a strong counterbalance to what we see is the ineq uali­ ties and instabilities of the market system. We want a system that ensures fair access to jobs and to reaso­ nable incomes for those individ uals in groups in society who have too often found themselves on the outside of the competitive rat race looking in when they should be participating, contributing members.

With steady paycheques they can then stim ulate the economy at the basic needs level; what we call the percolator-up approach, as distinct from the tradi­ tional hope that benefits wi ll trickle down. Business can then plan its activities with a better knowledge of the rules of the game, of the parameters within which they wi ll be required to operate. If they are expected to incorporate social goals into their activities they wi ll know in advance and they wi ll know that other competing companies will have to do li kewise.

We have no ill usions about the problems to be faced, partic ularly by businesses competing with other provinces or countries, or trying to break into a highly competitive new field or market. We intend to keep a sensitive ear tuned to those concerns but we will also counter with another side.

High productivity and quality control in Japan have been secured, not primarily by money rewards for the best br ains at the top of an enterprise, the Japanese have pioneered in ways to give workers life-long security, a stake in the company, an opportunity to contribute their innovative ideas and ski lls at the point of the company's functioning where they are most relevant. Workers who are respected work harder and better.

Industrial breakthrough in today's highly competi­ tive growth market such as high technology and bio­ technology depend more than ever on research and development and on strategic planning and market­ ing. These supports we are prepared to give. Economic development is not simply a function of outside industries coming into an area, bringing in their smokestacks, it's just as clearly related to help­ ing enterprises grow from a community base using our own resources.

Fish processing, forest products, metal fab ricating, food processing, alte rnate and renewable energy technologies using biomass or hydro elect ricity, apparel design and manufactu re, tourist attractions. We intend to help develop the skill s

Tuesday, 2 March, 1982 of Native Manitobans, of local communities and regions, to identify opportunities, to do feasibility stu­ dies, to manage the development of a business where appropriate. We intend to ensure that local people are helped to learn the skills required to make such indus­ tries viable. The spin-off benefits that can come from such development are great as local service-type small businesses are called upon to meet the needs of new undertakings. When a local work force, a local product, and an appropriate technology can be com­ bined into a going concern we all benefit.

The likeli­ hood of such an enterprise pulling up stakes and mov­ ing out of the province at the first chill breeze of an national economic downturn is slight. The benefits and the control stay with the people of Manitoba. We shall work hard to develop positive and co­ operative relationships with private industry, to help them wherever we can and to expect them to reinvest in Manitoba wherever we can. We also intend to welcome to Manitoba new indus­ tries - industries that can build on our local strengths, that can find a ready market in Manitoba and that can improve our capacity to export.

We shall expect these new arrivals to be good corporate citizens. We, in our turn, shall show them respect and smoothe their way wherever possible. The development of tourism presents a similar chal­ lenge. We can approach the industry with a view to topping the charts with numbers of people coming to Manitoba and how much they spend, and these are important considerations, but they do not tell the entire story.

We also want to look at tourism as an industry made up of hundreds of smaller industries and food services meeting an overnight accomoda­ tion - sports, recreation, retail sales, entertainment and special attractions. These industries provide inter­ esting work, modest income and much satisfaction, both to Manitobans and to visitors. There are large actors who can probably take care of themselves. There are also many, many smaller actors who may need help, modernizing, expanding or developing a new enterprise. Some may only see tourism as giving them a seasonal job.

We can see tourism as a vital part of a local community's life and provide help thoughtfully, so that the industry can undergo a healthy growth, or we can let seasonal floods of tourist invade a town or a remote area and distort the texture of life as a local community, and possibly even abuse the local surroundings. We intend to make the tourist industry a welcome and exciting part of Manitoban life, bringing people together in a thousand different ways. Manitoba is also part of Canada.

Though harsh critics of the Fed­ eral Government monetarist policies, and excessive emphasis on new mega project thrusts, we neverthe­ less find wide areas where we can co-operate with the Federal Government, and put in place programs which will benefit all Manitobans. There is a time for arguing political and economic theory, and there is a time for responsively negotiating the best case deal for Manitoba. We intend to respect these different processes. We live, as well, in an international context that is at best, bewildering, and at worst, frightening.

As a committed internationalist, I shall continue to support the democratic liberation and right to self-deter- 76 mination of peoples throughout the world, and to work for the introduction of a new international eco­ nomic order. Not unlike our new awareness - thanks to the new science of ecology - of having to live in a healthy balance with nature. The new international economic order recommends an economic system based on co-operation and mutual advantage, rather than one based solely on competition and might is right.

Willie Brandt echoes these views in his initiatives to restructure north-south trade, for, as he rightly says, "The prosperity of the strong industrialized nations depends on healthy development in the new indus­ trialized nations." Since OPEC and the foreign auto­ mobile incursions into the North American car market, surely we have all learned that aggressive, one-sided economic relations on the world scene will leave us all the losers. We cannot afford to put off the day when we will build a worldwide co-operative fair share economy.

We have everything to gain; peace, a sense of justice, security and as much prosperity as the globe can stand; and nothing to lose except war, con­ flict, fear and poverty. All these global issues can be addressed here in Manitoba today by the way we develop our own not spectacular, but still very considerable, physical resources for the benefit of all Manitobans in the way we develop our human talent to contribute, to create and to benefit. It is a worthy task. Mr. Speaker, in this House we are mindful of tradi­ tion, of the long historical evolution that has laid the basis for our present practices.

We are also most preoccupied with the present, the latest crisis, or scandal, or problem, but the quality of our work that is most important is the vision we have of the future and the steps we take to make that vision become a reality. If we accept a vision, where only some people make it, where we are always comparing ourselves with others to see who has more, we shall surely settle for second best. Let's not settle for second best.

Let's join hands and support one another in building a caring com­ munity in Manitoba, a community where quality of life counts for more, a community where every Manito­ ban, young and old, can find a place in the sun. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Stur­ geon Creek. MR. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (S turgeon Creek): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I might say, Mr.

Speaker, as every­ body else in this Chamber that has spoken so far has congratulated you on your position as Speaker, and I, like my Colleague, worked with you when you were Chairman of the Committee on Family Law which was a very hard and onerous task, and in your job as Chairman of Committees in the Legislature you did an excellent job in that capacity. I know that you have shown excellent patience for the last three days and you have given that flow of debate the range that it should have during this particular debate and we all appreciate that, Sir.

I, too, like the previous speaker, the Minister of Economic Development, would like to congratulate and say how proud I was to see Lieutenant-Governor Mrs. McG onigal, sitting in that Chair reading the Throne Speech on opening day because Mrs. McGon-

Tuesday, 2 March, 1982 igal, the Lieutenant-Governor is a constitueny of mine and has been for a long time and has been a very distinguished Councillor on St. James-Assiniboia with me, and been a distinguished Councillor in the City of Winnipeg, and the Deputy Mayor of the City of Winnipeg. She brings a lot of grace to that office and of that we are very proud. I would like to congratulate all Members of the House on their election, and certainly welcome the new members to the House; I am sure they have the great impressions that they should get the first couple of days of the session.

I would like to congratulate all of the speakers that we have had before so far, except for two. I can never really appreciate the Member for Elm­ wood, anybody who belittles the announcements of accomplishments of people in the province by giving a weather report after it is something that is very hard to understand. We had his usual talk about I went to Toronto, I went to Washingston, I went all of this, that and the other thing.

He has, as we all know, written the book "Wednesday is Cabinet Day," and one of my collegues has suggested he is working on one now that says "Thursday is Caucus Day," so I assure you that he has really been on his high road. The Member for River East, Mr. Speaker, when he makes the statement about where my Leader lives as being a golden ghetto, and he reminds me of the statement that the previous Premier made, Mr. Schreyer, but he didn't really care if he had any members south or east of the river.

When I was cam­ paigning the person I was running against in the NOP , when I said to him, "I haven't got to Assiniboine Cres­ cent yet," he said, "You can have it, I don't want it." If we are going to have that type of class distinction from a Member for River East it would be very disappoint­ ing and he should probably, as the previous speaker said, democracy in government for all citizens of Manitoba is what we are looking for in this house and I might remind him that bigger men than him have left here and been cut down to their size. Mr.

Speaker, the Throne Speech really did have a lot of spending, and a lot of centralized government, and government ownership in it. We've just heard a speech, at the present time - an excellent speech by the way. I'm sure that the Member for Osborne received some of that ability from Rupertsland which she went to, and I was going to St. John's at the very same time, two very fine English schools and I'm sure that type of speaking has rubbed off on her, I don't know if it's rubbed off on me. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the word "vision" kept coming into the speach, and that's exactly what the economic development plans for this province are by the present government, is strictly a vision, and really you have to get down to reality of what is hap­ pening around you because Manitoba is not an island on itself but can live with visions about what may or may not happen. There are practical ways that things will happen and, Mr. Speaker, this government, when we were in office, were on the way to making it happen. Mr. Speaker, we had criticism within this House continually during the past four years. Mr.

Speaker, the criticisms used to mainly come from economic studies that were usually done by the Member for Brandon East.

The Member for Brandon East, when 77 we took his economic studies that were presented to the province and gave them to economic students, as he is, I have a report of that particular study and the person that gave it to me said, "You know, I know him, he knows better than that, he's a better economist than that, and it was a shame he had to use all of his ability basically for political uses only." The Member for Brandon West said there was doom and gloom when he walked down the street in Brandon and the doom and gloom came from a report by the Member for Brandon East on what a terrible place Brandon was.

And he talked about that there were no new businesses in this book, and if he had just opened the phone book, or he'd been any type of an economist, he would have found out it should be noted that small area economic data for Brandon is sparse, and what is available is somewhat limited because it lacks reliabil­ ity. One reliable place he could have gone is to the phone book and he'd have found out that new busi­ nesses in Brandon had increased every year by at least 10-15 percent.

That was the reason for the doom and gloom in this province; that was the reason why people were walking around saying, "Gosh we're in such hard times in the Province of Manitoba; gosh Manitoba is really behind all others," and, yes, we weren't in the best position. But, Mr. Speaker, let me give you some statistics, and in the words of the First Minister, when he used them during the election campaign, was "These aren't my figures, these are Statistics Canada." Value of shipments fell from 13 .2 in 1975 to 1.9 in 1977.

The rate of employment growth also fell off from minus 7.7 in 1976 to minus 10.0 in 1977, to reach a low of 54,000 workers in 1977. The decline in the sector was further underlined by a minus 15.7 percent fall in investment from 1975 and 14.4 for 1976. The growth rate of the value of shipments since 1978 has averaged 14.6 increase over the previous years, and for the first seven months of 1981 has been higher than that. The employment growth rose from 54,000 in manufactur­ ing to 69,000 in the first nine months of 1981; and then finally investment has grown 69.7 percent to a total of 208 million up.

Those are the figures to the end of September, that's the manufacturing growth in the Province of Manitoba since 1977. What did the Member for Brandon East always have to say, that manufacturing was not important, it wasn't the best figure to go by. There were many other things happening in the Province of Manitoba but manufac­ turing was not important. That wasn't a statistic that we should really rely on. Mr. Speaker, that was the type of doom and gloom that we had brought forward. In the Throne Speech today the First Minister speaks about bankr uptcies.

The bankruptcy figure in Ma'nitoba to the end of September, 1981is 149, I believe it came in at about 155; in Saskatchewan I think it came in at about 125; in Ontario it came in at 2,026; in Quebec 316; in Alberta 460. And those are not good figures to present to the House, Mr. Speaker, because they're larger provinces, the ones I mentioned; but if you take the average bankruptcies for every thousand businesses in a province such as all of the rest of them, you'll find that Manitoba sits fifth in ban kruptcies in Canada during these hard times, Mr.

Speaker; but all we ever got from the Opposition when we were government, was strictly doom, gloom, what a terrible

Tuesday, 2 March, 19 82 place Ma nitoba is to liv e in. Now, do they always belie ve that? Never. I was criticiz ed for putting adver­ tising on, that said it was a good place to li ve. Mr . Speaker, the tourism that we just heard about; I sug gest some of you back benchers, please, go to your Min isters and get these figur es. Th ey're availa­ ble. Don' t always just bel ieve your Min isters. Go and ask them for the facts, because I will tell you the First Min ister has a tendency to say anyth ing and you have to be very careful.

But tourism in the Provin ce of Ma nitob a, while the NDP govern ment was not spend­ ing money, look where it went. In four years, it dropped right down, because they did not believe in spending any money on tourism. We took office, started to promote tourism, and the numb ers of peo­ ple went up.

We also were the ones that started mov­ in g the show around the Provinc e of Man itoba We put in the program under Tourism Man itoba with the Fed­ eral Government that helped support the fares, etc., for Man itobans to enjoy one another at the fairs, etc And yet, all we ever heard from the other side is, "Manit oba's not a good place to li ve. Man itoba is behind everybody else." Mr. Speaker, the honourable memb er wasn't here for eight years, and if he would lik e to read Hans ard, he will find -(Int erjection)- Yeah, he kno ws what was said -(I nterjection)- Mr .

Speaker, one of the other figur es that really am uses me to a gr eat extent, and this is the last fig ure that I'll bring out and I can bring out many more; but as I say to the back­ benchers, ask your Min isters. The Memb er for Brandon East used to delight in coming in to the Hous e and saying, "The Conference Board fig ures are such and such. Isn't Ma nitoba in such a terri ble condition." Look at where we sta nd.

You kn ow, the forecast from the Conference Board came out in the end of Novem ber, 1981, fo rt he forecast for the year, and the forecast for Manit oba real domes­ tic product was to be an in crease of 3.3 percent over 1980, which is the thir d highe st in Canada. Now, I certainly hope that forecast is correct, but I didn't hear the Memb er for Brandon East come in to thi s Hous e righ t off the bat and say, "The Conference Board has now said that the Province of Mani toba is thir d in Canada above the Canadian average for real domestic product." And I doubt that he ever would come in.

As a matter of fact, when those figur es come from Statis­ tics Canada - which they will be coming very shortly - we'll be very interested to see what their forecast is. None of them are final at this time of the year, but I would be very interested if they'r e better than what he said they would be if we will hear fro m that side of the Hous e at all. Mr . Sp eaker, the problems that we have been having in Man itoba do relate to world situations. There is a tremen dous amount we can do for ourselves, but we do have a very large area or world around us out there, and we have to be very very aware of that fact.

You kn ow, when I spoke last year in the Thr one Speech Debate, I had the lit erature where the First Mini ster was comp letely ina ccurate all thr ough the literature. I had his speech that he made when he was made the leader of the party where he said four com­ panies had left this province and they never did; the fir st speech he ever made as leader.

Literature on February 4, 1981, says, "Overall economic gr owth and 78 energy savings would have been aided if orderly development of Hyd ro was not cancelled in 1978." If you read the Tritsc hler Report, if you read the mi nutes of Hydro, it was cancelle d in 1977, and that's fact. But the Fi rst Minis ter contin ued all through the time. The First Min ister kept put ting out and tal king about how he disli ked the Enterpr ise Mani toba, the Rural Small Busine ss Program, a program that created 180 new or expanded busine sses in the province that employed di rectly 620 more people in the rural area.

Across the province, only $2 mill ion over five years - the Federal Government put in the other three - and developed all those small busi nesses within this province as they'r e being worked with, by the Department of Eco­ nomic Development. Mr . Speaker, the First Min ister kept continually dis­ cussing and tal king about the program in Saskatche­ wan. Min d you, I found it rather str ange, Mr. Speaker, that we weren't sum moned to the Saskatchewan Legislatur e in stead of this one, because all we ever heard was what was happening in Saskatchewan. Mr .

Speaker, he tal ks about up to 2 percent in large towns and cities, 4 percent in smaller centers in his press release. Did he take the time to find out that the pro­ gram in Saskatchewan in 1979-1 980, because we examine d it very closely, had a budget of $350,000.00. During this period of tim e, 490 partic ipants were approved and all they spent was $182,6 88.00. The pro­ gram really did not help or do very much for small busi ness in the Province of Mani toba. But he kept talking about the Provinc e of Saskatchewan and what he would do for small busine ss and interest rates. Mr .

Speaker, the small busi ness program that has been presented by the govern ment will help very few smal l busi nesses. The statistics that it will keep 4,000 to 5,000 people in jobs is not accurate. Any busi ness with receipts less than $350,000, when you take away the amount of money it costs to operate that busi ness and purchase the goods that they sel l, is a very small profitable busi ness. It is not lik ely they have the debt that is announced within the program; and Mr. Speaker, I have been to four banks, and I've had one bank manager tell me he has a customer that this would serve. Mr .

Sp eaker, I don't kn ow where the figur es came from, but the other thing that they will shy away from as two or three small busi nesses told me, he says its 50 percent grant and 50 percent loan, and I don't need any more debt. And also, Mr . Speaker, we'll be very inter ested to see the regulations on it, because it would app ear that the reg ulations are much more, let's say, lean toward less people wanting to use the progr am. Mr. Speaker, I would tell you that an int erest rate program, as we said, would have to cost $60 milli on.

If the First Min ister can tell me that the farm dealers, the farm parts dealers, all of those people in the country in man ufacturing who run excepti onally good busine sses at the present time and are in trouble only because of high interest rates, and most of them are over $350,000 a year, those are the busi nesses that are suff ering and that is the area where people will lose their jobs, and he should examine that. He would have been better off, Mr . Speaker, if he had taken the $23 million and put it all in to mor tgages. If he had a program lik e we had presented, and, Mr .

Speaker, we were criticiz ed because we presented it durin g the

Tuesday, 2 March, 1982 election. We were waiting sincerely for the Federal Government to come up with something, we waited sincerely -(Interjection)- No, he's wrong again, Mr. Speaker. It was the program that your colleague is speaking of before the election. -(Interjection)- No, no, it was in the middle of the election we pronounced.­ this when the Federal Budget came out, so it is the inaccuracy of the First Minister again. The First Minis­ ter is inaccurate. We waited for the Federal Budget to come out and we presented a program. Mr. Speaker, we would have -(Interjection)- too little, too late.

That's the best accurate announcement that you've made in 16 years in this House. Mr. Speaker, if you had taken the $23 million into a mortgage program and helped more people than you're going to help in your mortgage program - I talked to all the young people, that have come to my home for years that are married now that go around with my sons and daughters, who have had their mortgages doubled, some of them, in the last two years or last year-and-a-half - you won't help, maybe one of them you'll help.

Maybe one you'll help, but if you'd gone with our program where we said over 14 percent, up to 20 percent, we will 75 percent, you would have helped people, you would have put money in people's pockets and that probably would have been the best way to help business that anybody could ever have found; having more disposable income in people's pockets would have been probably much more hel pful.

But the First Minister came up and said, first of all, it's $23 million for three categories; he then, after the election, said, oh no, I think it's for one only, just mortgages; and then when he gets into the House it's for three over two years. Mr. Speaker, our program for mortgages was for $22 million to support mortgages in this province, and the First Minister has a program that will do next to nothing for farmers and it will not help businesses where there's high unemployment where people will be laid off because of high interest rates. Mr.

Speaker, we have said that no province - as a matter of fact, I could go downstairs and I may bring it tomorrow because I'll have 10 minutes left, I will repeat the First Minister's statement in his press release of a month ago - that said no province can overcome the interest rate problem that is throughout the world at the pres­ ent time. That is right in your press release. Now you start talking about what we can do about it; so politi­ cally, your game was political. Mr. Speaker, we were criticized continually about out-migration; we were criticized about statistics and, Mr.

Speaker, there is a concern that people were leav­ ing Manitoba. We had a deep concern. -(Inter­ jection)- No, I don't intend to say it again. You know, when the Member for River East, was speaking, Mr. Speaker, and we got some reaction from this side of the House. the members on that side were saying, "You're getting to him." Maybe, I'm getting to him. Mr. Speaker, getting to a socialist government is tough at the best of times but maybe we are. The work of developing manufacturing in the prov­ ince is a very serious situation. Mr.

Speaker, they take it lightly, the Throne Speech takes it lightly and their attitude to the new projects that we were working on in this province; their attitude which is a really "don't care" attitude towards them is one that is very serious. 79 They say that they're going to do it with ManOil. Mr. Speaker, the New Democratic Government will estab­ lish ManOil. The Premier says, "ManOil" - imme­ diate, orderly development of our hydro-electric resources coupled with ManOil - "would provide the basis for sound, sensible energy strategy for Manit­ oba." Mr.

Speaker, the Manitoba resource, mineral research, drilled 56 holes; 56 holes produced $1 ,000 in the past year, that's less than $10 0 per month income that we received from their drilling out there. At 20 percent interest the bank would have offered us $200,000 for the million. There was a million spent out there for $100 a month return and you wonder why this side of the House is a little bit leery about the state­ ments of the First Minister that ManOil is going to bring Manitoba out of its economic problems with an income of $100 a month. That is the record. Mr.

Speaker, the First Minister says orderly devel­ opment of Hydro will start immediately, which he ended because the interest rates and the costs of developing hydro were pushing the hydro rates up by an average of 20 percent a year when the NOP were in government, and now the First Minister says, "with orderly development." I don't know what he means by the word "orderly," but if he develops it without having someplace to sell the power at the costs of Limestone being $2 billion, the interest rate being about 350 million I tell the people in the backbench of this government that Hydro does not have that much income per year.

Figure that one out, when your Min­ isters tell you that the hydro will not have to go up in Manitoba, figure that one out. Mr. Speaker, we've had continued criticism of the Alcan Project. Picture if you can, Mr. Speaker, a large hydro plant owned by Manitoba Hydro, operated by Manitoba Hydro, the maintenance of it being paid for by Manitoba Hydro, but, Mr.

Speaker, they have a tenant the same as if you were building an apartment block and you could presell four floors of it ahead of time and the tenant who was doing that said, "I want to do that and I'll do that so that I'll have accommodation and have those four floors for 35 years, but for that I will give you $600 million." You don't have to borrow it, he will pay, he will give you up-front money to build your building; front end; and the plant is owned, and that tenant will pay his maintenant costs. All the tenant is being guaranteed at the present time is that he will have power.

He was not guaranteed the price. He will have to produce that. He was not guaranteed the price over the 35-year-period -(lnterjection)­ Yes, listen to him, he's going to blow it just as sure as anything because he wants to, he has no guarantee and they would pay their fair share. They would pay $600 million right off the Manitoba taxpayers back to b'uild that power plant. Now, really, what is wrong with that? And what was wrong with having the plans that we worked so hard for, so that we could stop outmigration, so that we could have jobs for Manitobans?

We had a Potash Plant being developed in the western part of Manit­ oba; we had the Alcan in the central part of Manitoba; we were working to have something happen in the Member for The Pas' area; we were working to see that there would be a hydro development along the Nel­ son, there would be steady construction for 25 years; all spread out in Manitoba - not in one little smoke-

2 March, 1982 stack area but all spread out - to benefit all Manito­ bans, an expenditure of probably $3 billion within this province. Two thousand construction jobs on Alcan alone; 1, 000 on the potash; 2,000 on the hydro plant; the spin-off factories that would hire people and the goods that could be purchased in this province by $3 billion. Now, Mr. Speaker, what happens if we don't have it? -(Interjection)- because I'll tell you what hap­ pened. We had liter ature that said the Lyon Conserva­ tives had been willing to sell off our resources to mult inatio nal corporations with benefits to their shareholders.

We weren't selling anything. Our hydro resources will not be developed to be giv en away to Alcan or any other multinational corporation. $600 million is a gi veaway? A joint venture in potash was a giveaway? The development of your hydro a giveaway for the people of Manitoba? Mr. Speaker, what will happen? The same criticisms will happen. Mr. Speaker, just hopefully I can get through the basic arrogance that I'm getting at the present time.

Just remember this, that your transfer payments from Ottawa are going to be down; the economic situation in the province is such that your tax base is not going to be as high. The Federal Government is moving itself into the position to try and basic ally control this prov­ ince with their moneys. Mr. Speaker, I will tell you right now it is so impor­ tant for Manitoba to have those developments, because if you don't, your child ren will not have jobs, your grandchildren won't have the jobs. You'll be exporting the good people from this province to other provinces; you will be turning around.

And you talk about freez­ ing university, you will be giving university students all kinds of education to go elsewhere, because there will be nothing for them in the Province of Mani toba. Mr. Speaker, this province needs these develop­ ments at the present time in the history of Manitoba like it never needed it before. All you have to do is look at your own Budgets that are coming up, and look at your own children and their friends and the young people who are look ing for jobs in this province, who want to have homes in this province. It was a very strange situation, Mr. Speaker.

Just the other day when we were in church the Minister started out, he said we must have our resour­ ces in large industry, and bless them and bless the management of them to do well. And then he moved to the service industry, he says that's what creates the service industry. There's really no reason for store­ keepers, school teachers, or anything else, if you don't have a service industry, manufactu ring. Your base in this province is manufactu ring, Mr.

Spea ker, and the gentlemen and ladies on the other side of the House better realize that it's on their heads at the present time, to see that this province moves ahead with it, and if the Minister of Mines and Energy can find somebody else that will give him $600 million towards the construction of a power plant . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. When we next reach this resolution the honourable member will have five minutes remaining. The time of adjournment having arrived, the House is now adjourned and will stand adjourned until 2:00 p.m. tomo rrow afternoon. (Wednesday) 80