Manitoba Hansard — 29 January 1990 (Sitting 113B, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-113b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA Monday, January 29, 1990. The House met at 8 p.m. CONCURRENT COM MITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-STATUS OF WOMEN Mr. Chairman (Harold Gilleshammer): Order, please. We will call this meeting to order and proceed with the Status of Women Estimates. We will start with an opening statement from the Honourable Minister. Hon. Gerrie Hammond (Minister responsible for the Status of Women): It gives me great pleasure this evening, as Minister responsible for the Status of Women, to introduce my Estimates for the Status of Women portfolio.

It is a particular pleasure as these Estimates represent the first time Status of Women has been recognized as a separate portfolio. As well, the position of the head of the Women's Directorate has now been classified to an Assistant Deputy Minister's position. We think that these changes are indications of the importance that this Government places on the concerns of women. As you are well aware, this Government undertook, during the past year, an extensive consultation process that was known as the Women's Initiative.

The Women's Initiative was a series of consultations with women throughout Manitoba that took place over a five-month period, ending in March of 1989.

The Government's aims in establishing the initiative were: To provide women in all parts of Manitoba with a "window" through which their concerns and opinions could have a direct impact on Government policies and programs in the province; To identify gaps and overlaps in Government services that are of particular interest or relevance to women; To focus, in particular, on the problem of violence against women and their children in Manitoba, and on economic security and opportunities for women in Manitoba. ! had the privilege of acting as the Chair of the Women's Initiative consulting team. For those who took

part in the initiative the process was a memorable one. As we said in our report, "During these consultations we have been angry, amused, frustrated, impressed, and very often deeply moved." The report of the Initiative included 94 specific recommendations for action by virtually every part of Government. Within the 94 recommendations proposed by the Women's Initiative, we as a Government have already acted on 50 of the recommendations.

Another 11 are under consideration for the next fiscal year, and in another seven of the recommendations action has taken place based on the reco mmendation but with modifications. That is a total of 68 positive responses to the initiative. Most of the other recommendations will continue to be long-range objectives of this Government. Since that report was submitted to the Government, I have been appointed Minister responsible for the Status of Women.

In that position, I became responsible for a Government-wide Action Team that followed each and every one of the se recom mendations as departments analyzed and responded to them. To ensure ongoing action, I have asked the Action Team to continue working with me. This will ensure appr opr iate responses, not only to the recommendations of the Initiative, but so that immediate responses can be identified on an ongoing basis to issues as they continue to be identified.

It is im portant, though, for all of us in Manitoba to understand that correcting patterns of injustice that have prevailed for generations is not simply a matter of acting on any single list of recommendations, no matter how comprehensive the list may be. The problem of inequities is not one that we can solve with a little fine-tuning. Its solution calls for fundamental changes. In large part, because of the courage that women have shown, those changes are already under way. There has been significant progress made, but where injustice still prevails, there can be no excuse for complacency.

The challenge that faces us now is to complete the changes that have begun, and to do so quickly and completely. I believe the best way for us to begin to meet that challenge is by understanding the nature of the changes that are under way and addressing, frankly, the factors th at lead to the continua ti on of disa dvantages. Inequities and barrie rs must be overcome so that women in Manitoba can enjoy what must be their right, true equality, in all aspects of their lives. *

(2005) In the Speech from the Throne, this Government began to outline its plan to meet this challenge. This Government intends to pro-actively seek changes through a plan that embodies three main elements: action, responsiv eness and partnersh ip. This Government's intention is to be responsive, to listen to women and to continue to respond. The Women's Initiative was the first step; I continue to actively monitor action through the action team to ensure that this Government remains responsive to women. Partnership remains a priority.

We, as a Government, want to be partners with Native women as they seek more self-reliance. We want to be partners with new and recent immig rant women as th ey begin to participate in the economy of Manitoba. We want to form partnerships with new emergent entrepreneurial women as they begin to take their place in the business community of this province. We want to be partners with rural and farm women to assist them in the 4783

Monday, January 29, 1990 important role that they play on family farms. We want to become partners with those who provide service to women, to ensure that service is provided on a fair and equitable basis, that it is accessible and that it is appropriate. Throughout Manitoba today there are thousands of women, who because of historic and persistent patterns of discrimination find themselves to be more vulnerable to adverse economic circumstances than men.

For example, women who did not enjoy realistic access to training or education, who had no opportunity to participate in pension plans or other forms of retirement savings, who face discrimination in employment being unable to compete for well-paid positions or being denied promotion because of their sex, who did not have independent access to credit, who may have been divorced prior to reforms in the family property laws and who were therefore denied a share of family assets. Women who find themselves as the sole support for families are all at particular risk of poverty now and in the future.

Women who in the past were denied opportunities to establish their economic independence, employability, assets, the means of achieving financial security, find it more difficult to avoid or leave abusive situations. Where will they go? How will they support themselves or their children? Clearly, it is not possible to make full redress for the opportunities lost in the past, but just as clearly it is not enough for our society to say, henceforward the barriers to equality will be removed and pretend that solves the problem.

Historic and traditional patterns of discrimination have made women throughout Manitoba more vulnerable than men to economic hardship and deprivation, to abuse, to a lack of confidence and security and to the frustration of continuing lack of real opportunity. Manitoba's policy for positive equality of men and women must include sensitive and realistic measures to address that vulnerability, to provide opportunities for those who were denied them in the past, to provide alternatives for those who saw none in the past, and to provide security for those who were denied the opportunity to achieve it in the past.

We want to form partnerships with those women through listening to their concerns, being responsive to those concerns, and working with them to formulate plans of action. The Women's Initiative was such an opportunity, the type of response that this Government made to the Women's Initiative, action on 68 of the 94 recommendations is a very clear indication of the nature and the intensity of the commitment of this Government to the issues and concerns of the women of this province. The key to this commi tment is action.

Our Government is prepared to act, it has acted, and it will continue to act. * (20 10) We said that the Women's Initiative was a first step and we intend to put further mechanisms in place so tha t further steps continue to be taken. This Government has responded to the concerns of women and it intends to continue to respond. One primary focus of our action is within the area of wife abuse. The Government has demonstrated its commitment to providing better funded, more comprehensive and more accessible services to abused women.

We have adopted the philosophy that abuse is a crime and have begun to ensur e that a strong message is sent to the community at large, that abusive behaviour will not be tolerated in Manitoba. The Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae), through his actions, has made it clear that this message must be understood. Sentencing in wife abuse cases is carefully monitored so that sentences will reflect the seriousness of the offence. Within the past year four sentences have been successfully appealed and higher sentences issued. Within the Department of Justice a tracking system is being developed.

This system will allow the handling of domestic crimes within the justice system to be tracked. It will help us determine if there are any blocks in the provision of justice to those who are victims of crimes of domestic violence. This Government is clear. In Manitoba wife abuse is a crime that will not be tolerated. Early this year we are beginning a public awareness campaign that will bring a strong message to all Manitobans. We must stop wife assault. Women must not be killed by these acts of violence. We are also carrying the message that abuse comes in many forms, verbal as well as physical.

In none of its forms will it be tolerated. We have, as well, undertaken an extensive consultation on elder abuse.

Whereas this consultation process is not exclusively aimed at women, we know the majority of seniors are women and therefore this process will, without doubt, benefit women . The message is the same. In Manitoba we will not tolerate abuse in any form. We know that the cycle of abuse must be stopped. We will begin early and make the message clear. We also know that the education system is an important place to begin the work of instilling the message that there are other ways to interact than through violence.

We know that an important factor in creating this strong message is to eliminate sexist role modelling within the school systems. Audits have already begun to review the material used in community colleges in order to ensure that sexist material is not used. We feel that this will send out a strong message and establish a process to reinforce that education is available to all. In addressing the issues of stereoty ping, my own Department of Labour has beg un an extensive campaign with initiatives to ensure that young girls and women will begin to see the apprenticeable trades as more attractive career choices.

During the Women's Initiative, women told us that they wanted educational options available for them where they lived. Having to go away for training and education often means that options are not open to women. We have improved the distance education options within the province. This will ensure that such opportunities for education are more accessible in the rural and northern areas. Because this is such an important issue in the North, Keewatin Community College is establishing a Women's 4784

Monday, January 29, 1990 Advisory Committee. To this end, workshops were recently held in The Pas and Thompson and this important committee will soon be established. It is also important that, as a province, Manitoba is able to take advantage of the skills and talents of our new and recent immigrants. Until now we have too often been unable to use their skills. Their options have been limited by our inability to formally recognize foreign degrees and/or professional status.

The Department of Education has begun a process whereby Manitoba will be able to formally recognize credentials that have been acquired outside of Canada. Women today have access to a far wider range of employment and other economic opportunities than their mothers enjoyed. The process of providing true equality of access to opportunity, however, will continue to be incomplete until one fundamental proposition is recognized: an environment in which both men and women can function in true equality will be a better environment than one which allows participation by only one gender.

At a basic level, our society agrees that it is intolerable for women to be demeaned through the way they are portrayed, discussed or treated. We have legislation and enforcement mechanisms, for instance, to prevent harassment of women, to display offensive materials and to use offensive language in the workplace.

For example, as I mentioned during the Estimates of the Civil Service Commission, they have recently updated their sexual harassment policy to ensure a better working environment for all, but the work of ensuring environments that are truly accommodating to both sexes is far from complete. * (2015 ) We recog nize th at language is an important component in setting the tone for such a climate.

The Women's Directorate has, in conjunc tion with the Human Rights Commi ssion, begun a series of workshops aimed at decision-makers, both elected and not, to ensure that there is a wide recognition of the necessity for gender-neutral langua ge. This is an important step as it recognizes that some people may feel that they are excluded from roles or limited in their potential because the language that is used is inadvertently restrictive. ! have, within my three portfolios, begun a process that identifies the importance of the dual responsibilities of work and family.

Although these pressures are not only for women, we know that they are most likely at this time to impact women. We must, therefore, develop te rms of employment and approaches to career advancement that support and accommodate women in their dual role. When I attended the National Family Symposium in Regina in June, this issue was identified as a primary concern. committed myself then to explore alternatives that would help make modifications within the Civil Service to begin to make our working environment more supportive.

This accommodation is seen as being special to women, as being a requirement, perhaps involving extra costs to the organization that benefits 4785 only female employees. In effect the changes that are required to achieve real equality are too often seen as changes that would only feminize the work environment However, their real impact will be to humanize the working environment Within our society at large there is a growing understanding that both men and women have an active and crucial role to play as parents.

With growing female participation in the labour force, increasi ngly both parents contribu te to what was traditionally male role of breadwinner. As well, it is seen as increasingly desirable that both contribute to the traditional female role of nurturer and caregiver. The evolu tion of environments th at better accommodate women should be seen as a process which will increase the ability of all employees regardless of their sex to balance their roles as employees and parents. In doing so, families will have greater choices and flexibility.

In working toward creating these changed environments, we will be working towards completing some of the work that was started through the Women's Initiative. It is work that will continue. It will continue based on a commitment by this Government to support the equality of women. The work of Manitoba Women's Directorate and the Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women is integral to this ongoing commitment. In order to better meet this commitment, the Manitoba Women's Directorate has opened offices in The Pas and in Portage la Prairie.

This is in direct response to women throughout the province who raised the questions during the Women's Initiative about access to information. These new offices are seen not only as information points, but also as a resource for women's organizations, as support for development training, or when seeking funding. Staff will become consultants to women's groups. The Manitoba Women's Directorate has also taken the lead as the co-ordinating department for the Interdepartmental Committee on Women's Issues.

This committee is seen as a valuable way of ensuring the ongoing co-operation of all departments on women's issues. We are confident that this will be an effective tool in allowing departments to avoid duplication, better share information and develop programs that build on the successes of others. *

(2020) The Manitoba Advisory Council on the Status of Women continues to play an important role with this Government. A measure of this importance is evidenced by the recent meeting that the Premier had with the council. Other Min isters, such as the Honourable Don Orchard, have also met with the council as a whole in an attempt to maintain an open relationship with the Advisory Council.

The Advisory Council will continue the work that it began in the past, notably their reports on single parent women and women in non-traditional occupations, but have set a new agenda of work that include s Education and Training, Health, violence against women, legal and justice issues and economic community development. They have begun an active participatory role with Government and, for example, are part of the advisory

Monday, January 29, 1990 group to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) in his setting of the direction for the new Women's Health Directorate. I have the assurance of the Chair of the Advisory Council, Marilyn Gault, that this is a role that they welcome. The Advisory Council has recently moved to a new accommodation and has developed a work plan for the coming year that moves it in new and exciting directions. The composition of the Advisory Council reflects the commitment of this Government to truly reflect the diversity of the women in Manitoba.

Currently nine council members, or over one-half of all council members, live outside of Winnipeg. Out of a total of 16 members, three are from northern Manitoba and six are from rural areas. The past year has been an eventful one with many positive changes for women. I look forward to a productive upcoming year. Mr. Chairman: At this time, I would recognize the critic for the official Opposition Party , the Honourable Member for Ellice, for her opening statement. Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): Mr. Chairperson, I will keep my remarks very, very brief.

Because we have limited time, I will prefer to get into the questioning specifically of the Women's Directorate and issues affecting women, but first of all, I would like to just thank the Minister for organizing the recent gender-neutral language workshop which many of the MLAs had an opportunity to participate in. Certainly the comments that I have received back from my colleagues have been positive. Basically, in the next few hours what we will be doing is picking up on remarks made by the Minister in regard to her opening statements.

I would imagine that she has a copy of those opening statements or could provide us with that. If she could, that would be appreciated. Basically, we will be asking further questions on some of the women's issues, and recommendations from the Women's Initiative to see where we are at in regard to implementation of those. I have some questions in regard to resolutions that have been presented year after year by the Women's agenda, and, basically, we will be wanting to get a sense from this Minister of the direction that they see for this Government in regard to issues affecting women.

So at that I will leave my remarks and look forward to getting into discussion with the Minister. Mr. Chairman: I now recognize the critic for the second Opposition Party, the Honourable Member for St. Johns. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): I, too, would begin my opening remarks by thanking the Minister for her opening statement and for outlining the work of herself, as Minister responsible for the Status of Women and the activities of the Women's Directorate and the Advisory Council on the Status of Women.

We certainly recognize the sincerity that the Minister brings to this area and appreciate the effort she has taken in terms of a consultative process around the province in assessing the needs and aspirations of women. However, as the Minister knows very well, we have some very deeply-held views and concerns about the actual translation of that commitment and that sincerity into concrete action and programs that will clearly benefit women.

We somewhat admire the chutzpa of this Minister and this Government to come forward with, after a long pr ocess of consultation, a report of 94 recommendations, many of which, as we dissected that report, reflect action that was in the works at the time, many of the recommendations dealing very superficially with the su bject matter at hand, and were particularly impressed with the fact that this Minister has tried to sell this report as a major compilation of women's concerns, while missing, totally ignoring, avoiding a focus on some of the really critical issues facing women. *

(2025) It is astounding that all of this work and money can go into a report assessing women's needs and concerns and miss those issues and those programs and those policy areas that do get at the systemic nature of women's discrimination, that do get at the roots of the problem. I refer specifically to the absence in the Women's Initiative final report and recommendations to the areas of child care, pay equity, affirmative action, reproductive health, to name some of the areas that are clearly at the top of the agenda for women right across this province.

I do not believe it is sufficient for this Minister or this Government to sugge st that those areas were excluded because they were already under study and under review in other parts of the Government. Since it is clear when it is in the interests of this Minister and this Government, there is no hesitation to reflect on the activities of other departments and studies under way in other areas of Government, such as the Minister has done with respect to the work of the Justice Minister.

I believe that, while this Government has made some initiatives and some improvements in this whole area of Status of Women, they have been generally very limited in terms of improving the status of women and have missed the critical economic and social issues of the day.

I would hope that, through the course of these Estimates, we will get a clearer understanding from the Minister about her own understanding of systemic discrimination and the roots of inequality in our society today, and that we will start to get some clearer indication from this Minister and this Government about pay equity, affirmative action, policies which help families juggle work and family responsibilities, reproductive health, reproductive technology, employment standards, labour legislation, such as final offer selection, which has been applauded by most women in this province.

We would like to hear more precisely how this Government intends to begin to deal with those issues and the concerns brought to the attention of this Minister and this Government. It is also of concern to us that this Minister and this Government have spent so much time talking about the Women's Initiative, which, by all analyses, is generally a weak document in terms of its overall set of recommendations, but 4786

Monday, January 29, 1990 more impor tant ly, inadequa te in terms of the Government's response. As I said at the outset, it is somewhat amazing that the Minister has the chutzpah to suggest that the majority of these recommendations have been acted on or in the process today. We will cert ainly be wanting to have a precise breakdown of each recommendation and what exactly is in process with respect to those recommendations.

It is also of concern that while all of this has been going on, the Government of the Day and the Minister of the Day have been noticeably sil ent on some critical decisions being made by her counterparts in Ottawa, and involvement in areas that will dramatically affect the economic and social status of women in Manitoba society today.

The silence of this Government on the impact of the GST on women, the noticeable silence around the Family Allowance clawback, the refusal to make any comments with respect to federal cutbacks to the National Action Committee on the Status of Women, the little sign of pressure from this Government to have the federal Government move on a national day-care strategy, and the list goes on.

All of those are critical comments in themselves on the commitment of this Government to improving the status of women and show very clearly that while this Government has the rhetoric down pat, and the consultation processes in place, when it comes to truly addressing the systemic roots of women's inequality this Government has not carried out its mandate. I, for one, look forward to seeking clarification, and getting clarification on many of these critical issues throughout the Estimates for the Status of Women. *

(2030) Mr. Chairman: We will start the line-by-line examination of the Estimates and call the Minister's staff forward. Before we start we will give the Minister the opportunity to introduce her staff. Mrs. Hammond: I will introduce the staff of both the Women's Directorate and the Advisory Council. I would like to introduce the Assistant Deputy Minister, Doris Mae Oulton, and from the Advisory Council, Sheila Gordon, and from the Women's Directorate, Sandra Devon, Janet Fontaine, and Annika Weeks. Mr. Chairman: Thank you. Item No. 1, Status of Women, (

a) Advisory Council on the Status of Women: Advises the Gov ernme nt , through the Min ister Responsible, on matters relating to the status of women, with the objective of advancing the goal of equal parti cipa tion of women in society and promoting changes in social, legal and economic structures to that end. (1), Salaries, $1 38, 900-the Honourable Member for Ellice. With the Minister's opening remarks, and at length about the Women's Initiative, I am wr>nr1'>rmr if we can start with that document.

Obviously I will not go through all 94 recommendations, but dealing with' recommendation No. 1, which would seem like a reason able place to begin, gi ven tha t it has recommended a clear policy that supports equality and justice for all Manitoba women, and has suggested that policy be clear, which I would interpret that in fact it be written. I am wondering if the Minister could table for us the policy as outlined in recommendation No. 1. Mrs. Hammond: Mr. Chairman, we are planning to annou nce the polic y statement on International Women's Day, which is March 8, and we will have a stated, written policy. Ms.

Gray: The interdepartmental committee that the Minister has referred to, that has been working with the other departments-can she tell me how long it has been working intensely, or sort of what stage is it at in regard to working with the various departments on a number of the recommendations or issues that came out of the Women's Initiative? Mrs. Hammond: The committee started during the Women's Initiative and it started compiling information on what programs and policies were av ailable in Government for women. It has been an active Governmental role, right through the Initiative, and still is.

It has been used extensively. Ms. Gray: Has this committee had the opportunity to interact with each of the Government departments, where there were recommendations that would affect those departments? Has that preliminary work begun, and if so, when did that piece of the work begin? Mrs. Hammond: That started about five months ago and representatives from the departments were on the interdepartmental committee. Ms. Gray: The Minister mentioned the opening up of sub-offices in rural and northern areas and she talked about these offices being information points and acting as resources.

I am wondering if the Minister could elaborate on exactly the function or the role of these particular offices. Mrs. Hammond: One of the things that we found during the Initiative was that women had a need for information and they needed help in both trying to access either information or funding and that is what these people will be doing.

These women who are out there will be helping women's groups if they are trying to access funding, either from the provincial Government, from other outside organizations, in any way that they can help them and also provide them with information on what programs are available that they may not know about. Ms. Gray: How many staff people are in each of these offices? Mrs. Hammond: One staff person each. Ms. Gray: And what is the salary of that staff person, what is their classification? Mrs. Hammond: They are classified as PM 1. They receive 35.7 and 37.9. 4787

Monday, January 29, 1990 Ms. Gray: The Minister also referred to the Women's Health Directorate in her opening remarks. I am looking forward to hearing a bit more about the Women's Health Directorate because I was certainly unable to get any sense of what this directorate is when I questioned the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) in his Estimates.

Can the Minister tell us exactly how she envisions the Women's Health Directorate, particularly in relationship to the Women's Directorate within the Status of Women Department, and particularly in relationship to the other four or five directorates within the Department of Health? Mrs. Hammond: The Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) put out a consultation paper. I do not know if you received that at all. Probably we could get you a copy of it.

There was a strong recommendation that-not only because he was asking for input from the women's community and especially the ones that were involved in health-b ut there was also a recommendation from the women's community that the directorate stay, keep a strong role, and that they liaise with the directorate. Ms. Gray: Can the Minister tell us where does the responsibility for women's health issues lie?

Does it lie with the Women's Directorate, and are there specific resources attached to that directorate, or will it lie with this new Women's Health Directorate which I understand from the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) will be lodged within that department? Mrs. Hammond: The Women's Directorate will still liaise with all the departments, but the Women's Health Directorate will have the technical knowledge and it will stay with the Department of Health. Ms.

Gray: Will the Women's Directorate still feel part of its mandate to conduct independent studies or research or provide consultation and advice on women's health issues? Mrs. Hammond: As required-b ut as with anything, when they need technical advice they will go to the specific department that they need the advice from. Ms. Gray: Can the Minister tell us, this consultation paper put out by the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard), is there a time frame on when he is asked for feedback and when the decisions will be made as to what the structure of a Women's Health Directorate will look like and when it would be operational? Mrs. Hammond: I understand that the Minister had asked that they bring the recommendations by the end of November, but because some of the organizations did not have the consultation as quickly as possible, it is being formulated right now. *

(2040) Ms. Gray: I thank the Minister for the information on the consultation paper because that is more than what we knew when we went through Health Estimates. We could not even get that amount of information so at least we know that there is some process in place. I guess as we look at the recommendations of the Women's Initiative, it would be impossible within the time that we have to really go thr ough all the recommenda tions or even some of th e recommendations in great detail.

I am wondering, I am assuming that the Minister certainly has a pulse on the recommendations as to whi ch ones have been impl emented , which ones possibly they are discarding, which ones are halfway implemented or have begun, because I recall the Minister announcing that in the fall. I am wondering if she has a

summary document that she would be able to share with the Members of the Opposition this evening, that basically would, in a

summary form, indicate the status of those recommendations. Mrs. Hammond: Yes, we can give some of the areas we have moved on. We are planning to release the whole action plan on the 8th of March at the International Women's Day as well, so we would release the

summary of the action plan then. Ms. Gray: The Minister talked about their campaign that abuse is a crime, and she spoke then to what could be done in the area of education and gave an example of looking at sexist language and trying to remove that from literature and from curriculums and, albeit, that is a worthwhile effort and is very important.

My question to the Minister would be: in regards to what we are doing now in order to assist in preventing abuse and family violence ten and twenty years down the road, I am wondering if the Minister could indicate any specific initiatives that her Government is carrying out that would be of a preventative nature. Mrs. Hammond: They are doing work, they are setting up a program. I think Osborne House, as a matter of fact, has one-yes-on working with children whose parent, whose mother has been abused and possibly they have been abused themselves.

So that is one of the programs, working with the children that are in shelter, to try and stop that cycle. They are working on a program with that, and we are looking to increase some funding for the shelter so that they would be � able to continue that program. � Also there is the public awareness campaign that will be coming up, will definitely be focusing on "abuse is a crime." In other words, we want to make an awareness in the community that it is not just a family matter. We feel this will have a considerable effect on the community at large. Ms. Gray: What does th e Minis ter mean by considerable effect?

Mrs. Hammond: What we were looking at, and one of the things that we found when we did the Initiative, that we want to increase the awareness so that women have the support of their community. Their neighbours, their friends, would be aware that this is neet just all right inside the family, it is not just a family matter. We think that by raising the awareness in the community that these things are happening, that charges are going to be laid, that we consider that it is a crime, this is going to help to stop some areas of abuse. 4788

Monday, January 29, 1990 Ms. Gray: I guess I have concerns with what the Minister says, because I think she is living in an ideal world when she thinks there really will be an impact of a campaign such as this. Now I do not disagree with such a campaign. I think it is a starting point, but awareness, generally, does not behavioural change make.

I think when you speak to, particularly, the people who have been involved in the area of child abuse over the last 15 and 20 years, only now are they saying that they are starting to really see changes in society, in society's attitudes about the fact that child abuse is wrong. Although an awareness campaign is important, I guess my question is: what type of co-ordinated programs are th ere that really will be looking at behavioural change?

The Minister refers to some work being done at Osborne House, and I am somewhat familiar with that, and although, yes, that is important, I see that more as treatment for these children, as op posed to prevent ion, as opposed to primar y prevention. I would ask the Minister, have there been any discussions with the Department of Education, because, again, I see that unless we educate our children through the school system, today, that we are not going to change the course of history over the next 10 or 20 years.

There have been curriculums and there are some courses that have been developed that actually look at interpersonal relationships, that look at values, that look at the worth of individuals, and that also look at teaching children daily living skills, because our society is changing, because we oftentimes have two working parents, or one parent who is working. Their children are more on their own and independent, and need to learn more skills. question is, has there been any thought to looking at education system to see what types of curriculums can we develop that really look at what I call prevention?

That would be courses in interpersonal relationships, in activities of daily living, courses such as that, which again, down the road, I believe, could go a long way the area of prevention, courses in families, courses in how to raise children, how to care for children, all the se areas . Although some of th ose have been developed and are being taught, it is not mandatory; there is not a coordinated approach. Actually in other provinces it is not being done either.

So it is not as if Manitoba is really behind, but it would be nice to have Manitoba in fact ahead of the game and actually look at something as innovative as this. Mrs. Hammond: Yes, I agree with the Member that those are all areas that we have been discussing with the Department of Education, and it is trying to integrate some of these programs into the school, into the curriculum. It is going to take some work.

We also have been doing some work with the Manitoba Teachers' Society to increase their awareness, so that they have at least some semblance of awareness of what can be happpening in homes and see if they can give some help to some of the children. But we are actively discussing with the Department of Education. There are so many areas in the abuse that need to be dealt with that ! think we would like to get as quickly as possible certainly things done in this area.

But it is somewhat slow-moving in the fact that it is hard to change the curriculum and give enough time during the day so that teachers are able to accomplish all these things. *

(2050) Ms. Gray: Mr. Chairperson, in the consultations with women across the province, what I happened to note other than certainly the serious issue of family violence and domestic violence-time and time again in the comme nts was a numb er of th ings. Fi rst of all, comments from the communities and from women that there seemed to be not just lack of services in some areas, but where services were provided, gaps in service or lack of coordination of service. Another area that I found interesting was very often in rural Manitoba the issue of lack of counselling services available for families.

That just did not exist. I am wondering if the Minister could comment and she knows the recommendations better than I do. Were there specific recommendations that dealt with the lack of coordination of services and gaps in services, and has that been addressed? And the second question would be, what was the upshot of the concerns that were expressed in regard to counselling services for families? Mrs. Hammond: This is one of the areas that the interdepartmental committee has been working on.

This was one of the areas that when we went into rural Manitoba especially and northern Manitoba and even in the very smallest of communities where the service providers, who you would think would be in close contact with one another and were in some cases, when we got them together it was, I did not know you were doing that program-this type of thing. So some of the communities have actually started meeting. Some had at one time and then let it drop and decided-I know when we went out, said, they would try to start again.

I understand that some of the communities are getting together the service providers and sharing information so that there are not the gaps in information, at least that there were before. We are hoping that there will be a lot more of that type of thing. One of our recommendations had been to do a data base. That is something that, hopefully, in the future will be something that will come about. It is something that would take a fair amount of money, but we feel if we could get all the programs together and today, in the age of the computer, it would make sense to be able to have the programs readily accessible.

Ms. Gray: Has the interdepartmental committee looked specifically- I have spoken of rural areas; again the need for coordination was also identified within the City of Winnipeg, and has that committee looked at the City of Winnipeg and the services that are delivered both outside the Government and also inside the Government? I ask that question because, as the Minister is probably aware, the service delivery structure of seven 4789

Monday, January 29, 1990 or eight major programs within the Departments of Health and Family Services, the decision has been made that the structure will be a program model. By that I mean basically there will be no formal multidisciplinary team concepts, so that there will be much more opportunity for fragmentation, for gaps in service, for overlaps in services, which is inefficient, and for that lack of coordination; yet it seems to be endorsed by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs . Oleson) and the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). I am wondering if the Minister has comments on that. Mrs.

Hammond: Yes, we are doing the same thing in the city, but where possible we are using existing structures, such as the Winnipeg service providers, but I realize that there are a lot of other areas that need to be coordinated. One of the things we found, even when we were doing the Initiative with the service providers-and that meant it was outside agencies as well as Government-was where Government thought they were delivering the service, but the person that was more on the receiving end was finding that this was not exactly the case.

I mean, what one thought they were delivering in a manner, the other person was feeling that it was not happening that way. That is another area that we were looking at too, and it opened eyes on both sectors . What I was thinking of was the anti-poverty organization that was on the receiving end or at least advising people on what was so, so that was an area as well with dealing with some of the Government agencies that it sort of made both of them take another look at how that service was delivered and how it was perceived to be delivered . Ms. Gray: Mr.

Chairperson , what I am saying is that the two Ministers of two other departments are cle arly moving away from a coordinated service delivery model into a vertical program model, which goes against many of the comments that came out of the Women's Initiative. I am wondering is that of a sufficient concern that the Minister feels that possibly there should be something done about that to ensu re that services delivered in Winnipeg , which provide for over half the population of Manitoba, would be coordinated where possible, and I would suggest that example or model could start with the Government's programs .

Mrs. Hammond: I guess the only thing I could say to the Member is that I will take this particular area up with both the Ministers of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson) and Health (Mr. Orchard) . Ms.

Gray: Getting back to the family counselling services, as we look at many of the services that have been developed in Winnipeg and the need for services outside of Winnipeg for women, counselling for women and counselling for families, whether that be marr iage counselling or whether that be individual counselling for women, and we have seen funding to some of the organizations in Winnipeg and certainly that is a step in the right direction, but we still continue to have huge waiting lists with Women's Post Treatment centre, with the Fort Garry Women's Resource Centre.

We have waiting lists for Family Services Incorporated in Winnipeg, and we also have within the last year- since the last Estimates process of Family Services , I had raised at that time my concern about actually assimilating family counsellors, the few that were remaining as Government workers, assimilat ing them into other programs and the Minister at that time had promised to review it. Well, we now have a scenario where in fact there are no family counsellors at all within the Department of Family Services .

They are strictly working with services to the mentally handicapped and, although that is certainly an area of need, to use an old cliche , you do not rob Peter to pay Paul , and that is what we have seen occur, where we have increasing waiting lists for families who require cou nselling and who also require marriage counselling and the services just do not exist. Has the Women's Initiative and this Minister addressed that area? *

(2100) Mrs. Hammond: When we did the Initiative one of the areas-we tried to deal fairly specifically with what we heard. The other area that we tried to address was, could we stabilize funding where everyone was just hanging by their fingernails and they were spending every hour of every day trying to find stable fund ing . That was one of the areas that we did address. Family counselling was not an area that we add ressed specifically, but we recognize certainly, as time goes on, there are just needs out there that are unbelievable.

We realized that we could not recommend everything or recommend that we change everything at one time, but these are ongoing areas that we feel will need to be addressed further. Ms. Gray: Is the Minister sugg esting that the only recommendations co ntained within t he Women's Initiative were ones that were already predetermined, that the Government felt they could reasonably act upon? I was under the impression that the recommendations were actually a result of analysis and data collection and study on what women across the province were saying . Mrs. Hammond: Yes, I am sorry if I left the impression.

What I was trying to say, when we made recommendations, at the same time we wanted to do what was possible, but they were based on what we heard in the community. In other words, service providers were saying to us, do not start any new programs , please start to fund what there is out there . Women were looking for basics . In the communities they were not looking to make more money, they were looking to get into the system and make some money. It was really a very basic need that we heard when we went out to the communities and we know what the women 's community has told us as the Women 's Agenda.

We understand those issues and we take those and they are addressed by the Premier and the Government . But in this initiative, we were talking to women who came out to meet us in the communities and these were the types of things that they were saying to us. They needed access to programs, they needed access to education , and if they had access to education, they needed then child care and possibly transportation. These are the types of things that we 4790

Monday, January 29, 1990 were then passing on to the Depa rtment of Education and other departments. Ms. Gray: They also men tioned family counse lling because I read it over and over and over again, as I read through the notes and what had been compiled from the communities. The other area that they mentioned was mental health services in rural Manitoba as well. I would ask-let us start with the family counselling, what has been addressed through the Status of Women in regard to the need for that type of service? Mrs.

Hammond: All the recommendations, and as we did the Initiative we were sending the synopses of the daily meetings that we were holding , so that they could be sent into the Department of Family Services , so they are aware of the type of areas that we are looking at , and counselling certa inly is an area that we know is needed. Some of that counselling we were hoping would be able to take place with the increased funding that we were giving to the shel ters.

Also, I believe there was extended funding-I could be wrong because I am not the funding Minister to the Women's Post Treatmen t and also Pluri-Elles, which was for Francophone women. They do counselling there. There again , with a service like Pluri-Elles, they were very specific that they wanted to have the kind of a service that when someone walked in the door, it did not mean there was necessarily trouble in the family.

I think that with some of the services, and especially in rural Manitoba, this is important too because communitie s, as you know coming from a small commun ity, are very close and everyone takes notice , and not everyone wants their family business for the world to see. As far as the mental health network, Manito ba Health is pursuing a new mental health strategy to develop and enhance menta l health services. Pilot projects are currently underway to provide increased community-based service to a widely targeted population, including women.

This was an area when we were in rural Manitoba-and I am sure in the city the same-but we heard it more there, that we did want the services, that a person could cross over services, especially in rural Manitoba. (Mr. Burrell , Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Ms. Gray: In regard to the mental health strategy, yes, there is a new mental health strategy , but as yet we have not seen anyth ing in that strategy that is actually looking at getting more mental health counselling services into rural Manitoba. The Minister talk ed about the shelters and that moves into another line of quest ioning .

With the increase in per diem s that were announced by this Government for shelters, does the Minister feel that the fundin g structure as it currently exists is appropriate and that basically the needs of the shelters will be met by the increa se in per diem funding? Mrs.

Hammond: We did not see it as answering all the problems, but we did see it as a very major move in helping the shelters address a number of their problem s and one of the thin gs that we wanted to make sure was that the shelters were able to be open for 24 hours , because we felt it was very unsafe for a shelter just to be open on a part-time basis. Ms.

Gray: Is the expectation of the Government now , with the increase in per diems to the shelters and with the comments the Minister made about counselling, that in fact these shelters will now be able to employ qualified people , and when I say qualified, I am referring specifically to professionals who are family counsellors . Is that the expectation with this increase in the per diem funding ? Mrs. Hammond: When we made the recommendation what we were trying to do was stabilize the funding in the shelters.

We added $355,000 for the provincial crisis lines and 125,000 for women 's resource centres, and I think it was $183,000, thereabouts , for program support grants to shelters. These are areas the Member is talking about that would be developed by the Department of Family Dispute in Family Services. Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, when the Minister says developed by Family Dispute Services, is she referring to that area, actually providing resources, as in human resources? Mrs. Hammond: I guess I should explain more about the crisis lines.

We provided enough money that they will be fully staffed, and they will provide some counselling . Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, is the Minister saying in fact you can phone a crisis line and make an appointment to come down and see someone who will then provide counselling on a interim or ongoing basis? Mrs. Hammond: Yes, in some cases they do have support groups that are performed in the shelter . In the City of Winnipeg , now with Osborne House , with its new shelter, they certainly have space to perform this type of counselling.

I imagine that lkwe, when it gets fully going, and probably is doing some of it now, will be doing the same thing . Pardon me, they are now. lkwe is doing that sort of thing now. *

(2110) Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, the services and the types of services the Minister is referring to is actually quite different from family counselling. Family counselling, really, is more in the area of even marriage counselling, where in fact a couple may want to seek marriage counselling together before there is a situation where women would be forced to seek othe r services . Moving onto some other questions very quickly , again the Minister had mentioned the elder abuse paper, and her Government's initiatives.

Can the Minister tell us, does her department and does the Minister support the need for legislation in the area of elder abuse? Mrs. Hammond: We certainly support action, and that is what the consultation process that they are into right now is all about . When they bring recommendations 4791

Monday, January 29, 1990 to the Minister, then the Minister will bring further recommendations to the Government. Ms. Gray: Does the Minister have a position? Mrs. Hammond: I do not want to take a position that usurps the consultation process. Actually, I think they have done double the number that the initiative did, and we were kept running at the time. So I would not begin to second-guess what the consultation process will bring forward. Ms. Gray: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, in regard to a question that I had asked in the House a number of months ago, I think it was probably in the spring, it was in reference to material published in the Department of Tourism which basically clearly stereotyped women in female roles, referred to them as waitresses and serving businessmen . When I had asked the questions in the House, the Minister had indicated to me at that time that in fact that material having gone out would have been certainly inadvertent.

In fact her Government did have a policy of screening materials so that wherever possible we did not see stereotyping of women, and in fact gender neutral language was used . I am wondering if the Minister could table that policy or tell us that process . Mrs. Hammond: Yes, I do not have it right now, but evidently it is an old policy . It has not changed and should still be in use , so we should be able to give it to the Member . Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Chairperson, a couple of other areas. The Minister has made reference tonight to a number of services and programs that are being provided through her department.

I would ask in regard to women, two specific groups of women, first of all aboriginal women, Metis women, and certainly the need for services for these women . One only has to hear about the recent report from Ontario, the study which indicated the degree of abuse and the concerns that were expressed about lack of direction and the difficulties that are being faced by Native women and Metis women. The other group of women is of course new Canadian women, many who have come to this country and who do not speak the English language . Therefore, it is very difficult for them to integrate into society .

I would ask the Minister if she could specifically indicate to us what initiatives are being undertaken that would deal with first of all aboriginal and Metis women and the concerns and needs for services, and also what is being done in regard to assisting immigrant women? (Mr. Chairman in the Chair) Mrs. Hammond: Yes, I will go through a bit of the funding that has happened. The Indigenous Women 's Collective, the Justice Inquiry; the old funding for 1987- 88 was $5,000.00 . It has been increased this year to $80,000; the Justice Inquiry also $35,000 .00.

For the lkwe, it was in'87-88 $23,500; this year it is $259,900.00. It is an increase of 1,000 percent. They got an additional $370,000 for their housing. The PIAC-it is the housing co-op-received $335,700, and the housing capital was $3,241,000 .00. The Native Women 's Transition Centre, funding this year is $52,000, a 13 percent increase. The Immigrant Women 's Organization funding increased from'87-88 $49,0 00 to'89 -90 $158,000.00. I think that we really have been very active in both recognizing the aboriginal women and the immigrant women in the type of funding that we have given them .

They certainly never had that type of funding before . We found that when we did the Initiative, we went to three reserves to meet with the women on the reserves, and certainly if there are ever women that needed help, it is the Native women of our province. We are very well aware and are actively working with them to help them try to overcome some of the inequities that they face. It is certainly not all going to be done today, but I think we have made not a bad start. *

(2120) Ms. Gray: The Minister has indicated some of the funding and where it has gone . Can she tell us, has this funding , the decisions to fund these particular projects, albeit worthwhile, do those decisions come from a policy framework or a set of objectives or strategies that have been developed by this Government in consultation with Native and Metis groups and in consultation with ethno-cultural groups? I would like to know. Is there a framework established? Is there a policy framework?

Is there a strategy that looks over the next five and 10 years as to what direction this Government sees itself going in regard to services to Metis and aboriginal women and to immigrant women? Mrs. Hammond: The funding for aboriginal women has come out of consultations with Northern and Native Affairs and the Urban Native Strategies. So this is an ongoing type of consultation that Northern and Native Affairs is looking at. Ms. Gray: Can the Minister tell us, is not her department spearheading any such framework or strategies , or is it being left up to Native and Northern Affairs ? Mrs.

Hammond: The Women's Directorate works very closely with Northern and Native Affairs . As well, we work very closely with any of the Native women's groups when they need help on a particular project. We have been I think very good advocates for the Native women in Manitoba. Ms. Gray: Can the Minister tell us what her position is or if she has a position on the federal Government's decision to provide development monies to striptease bars? Mrs. Hammond: I guess I almost have a hard time answering that.

Of course I would not support that kind of development, but one thing we have done in Manitoba is we have worked actively with Industry, Trade and Tourism to develop the small loans program for entrepreneurial women, which we found when we went 4792

Monday, January 29, 1990 out to rural Manitoba especially was really necessary, because although it is fine to be able to get large sums of money, when women start businesses generally they start very small. So it was very important to get that program off the ground. I really appreciated the kind of help that we got from the department to get that program going. Ms.

Gray: As the Minister responsible for the Status of Women and as a Minister who represents women in the province of Manitoba, did the Minister express her displeasure to the federal Government by sending them a letter or expressing to them very clearly her concern about this type of funding. Mrs. Hammond: I did not specifically write the Minister on that particular issue. I think my time is probably better served trying to get the federal government involved in economic development for women. That is one area that I have written to Barbara McDougall on. Mr.

Chairman: Shall the item pass-the Honourable Member for St. Johns. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Time is quickly running out. It goes by I guess when you are having fun. In the remaining few minutes left I will try to just focus in on a few broad policy areas in the hope that we will finish tonight. Let me begin by, since we are on the line involving the Advisory Council on the Status of Women, just glancing through the last annual report of the council, which I think is an excellent report. I think the council has been doing an excellent job.

This annual report shows a very full agenda for the council with an incredible amount of work being carried out to its completion, many recommendations made. Through it all I think, and I have said this before to the Minister, it makes a rather scathing comment on the record of this Government in acting on those major areas of recommendation.

We have study after study after study where this Government has either ignored the recommendations or definitely taken action in the opposite direction. would ask the Minister, she has commented on the work, some new projects being considered by the newly appointed Advisory Council on the Status of Women, hovv many of these studies completed by the Advisory Council as outlined in ihe'88-89 annual report will gather dust, and how many are actively being pursued? Mrs. Hammond: The midwifery report is going to be dealt with by a committee that has just been struck in the Health Advisory Network.

The former Chair of the Advisory Council met with the Minister responsible for Lotteries and myself and I believe Doris May to talk about lhe Lotteries and how they affect women. The departme nt is actively looking at that. The recommendations on sexual harassment that came from the Advisory Council, we made sure that they were incorporated into the policy that was brought forward by the Service Commission. Ms.

Wasylycia-leis: Can I take it tha t the reco mmendati ons, which I view as se rious and 4793 substantive in the areas of child care, reproductive health and pay equ ity, are being igno red by the Government of the Day? Mrs. Hammond: The recommendations on child care were presented to the child care task force and were dealt with by that task force. I dealt with pay equity before in the consultations. The reproductive technology is being dealt with by a community committee. Ms.

Wasylycia-leis: Actually it was reproductive help I was referring to when I raised those areas, because it is clear that at least in those areas and perhaps in others the recommendations coming from the Advisory Council at that time seem to fly in the face of the Government's agenda actually in those areas. It seems tha t th ere is clearly no sup port for a solid reco mmendation around non-profit, community controlled child care.

There seems to be no show of support for the question of working to ensure that abortion is not entrenched again in the Criminal Code, and there seems to be no will on the part of this Government, and that was apparent in the Minister's Estimates for Labour, for moving in the direction of pro-active, mandatory pay equity in school boards, municipalities and the private sector.

I would ask, and I will not pursue that any further, I think the answers are clear and the record of this Government speaks for itself, but I would ask the Minister on reproductive technologies, it is clear that this is an area that is looming on the horizon as a major concern for women particularly. We are now faced with the need to have serious input into the Royal Commission on reproductive technologies, which finally appointed its members on October 25, 1989, and is expected to report its findings by October, 1991. Time is rapidly running out in terms of such a major, far-reaching area.

On this question, previously the Advisory Council on the Status of Women in the time of this Government has made loud and clear calls for this Government to ensure that women particularly are well resourced and well equipped to respond in a meaningful way to the Royal Comm ission on reprod uctive tech nolo gi es and specifically have recommended that monies be allocated to women in the community to ensure that they are prepared to have input in this area. *

(2130) The answers to date coming back from this Government, from the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and the former Minister responsible for the Status of Women, have been definitely no. In your references to working committees and whatnot within Government, and in my view that is clearly unsatisfactory, it is clearly the wrong direction when dealing with this kind of a totally new policy area where it is imperative that women have a chance to put forward their views before it again becomes dominated by a male medical profession and a male scientific profession and a male bureaucratic and governmental approach.

I would ask the Minister if she would reconsider the decisions made by her predecessor and her Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard)

Monday, January 29, 1990 and ensure that money is allocated for efforts within the women's community to put forward their views and present their research and gather their research on this vital area of reproductive technologies? Mrs. Hammond: The Member probably knows that we are involved in the federal, provincial and territorial committee on reproductive technology. All that I can say I think to the Member on the allocation of monies is that when application is made, then they would be considered at that time. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Can I take it then there is a program to which women's groups can apply? Mrs.

Hammond: There is no designated program. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Can I take it then that the Minister has at least in part reversed the position of this Government and is prepared to look at previous suggestions made by the members of the previous Advisory Council on the Status of Women to ensure resources and encouragement are given to women and women's organizations in Manitoba in order that they may participate fully in the Royal Commission process? Mrs.

Hammond: I understand tha t the Advisory Council's request for funding was rejected by our Government and by the Member's Government on the merits of the proposal that was put forward. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: First of all on that point, the Minister is wrong in that the proposal came forward at the time the Government changed hands. There was no final decision made on it. My point primarily to the Minister is-and this I believe is the major point of the previous council chairperson-that this Government consider assisting women's groups and the community at large in examining this issue area.

The council had put in a proposal, yes, for work on a research project by the coun cil, but it also made very serious recommendations for the Government to be pro-actively seek ing and assist ing women's groups and the community at large to be able to participate fully in this very important process. I would simply ask the Minister to clarify then, in terms of her previous comments, that if groups come forward with proposals and with requests for financial assistance, this Minister or this Government will find a way to some extent to fund those proposals and look seriously at those requests. Mrs.

Hammond: I cannot give the assurance to the Member on that, but any funding requests that come from community groups are seriously looked at. I think that is the only answer that I can give to the Member. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Would it be too much to ask that this Government pro-actively seek out the advice of women and indicate a willingness to resource and encourage efforts on the part of the community to have a grass-roots feminist approach inserted on behalf of Manitoba into the Royal Commission process? Mrs.

Hammond: The Department of Health is pro actively participating in the community committee and is taking the recommendations to the federal-provincial territorial working group. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass-the Member for St. Johns. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I will leave that point, but I would put on the record that I am not suggesting a pro-active part on the Government. I would assume that the Government is, hopefully, doing some research and work in this area so that the province itself can have a meaningful contribution to the Royal Commission.

I simply was making the point that this Government, on an active basis, seek out the advice of the women's community and encourage it and resource it to be able to participate more effectively, because without those resources and th at encouragement it is such an incredibly enormous topic that it is unlikely that we will see that jelling on its own in the community. I would go on to a couple of questions around the Women's Init iative. I gather from the Mini ster's comments that she is planning now some sort of announcement on a plan of action around the Women's Initiative for March of 1990.

I am somewhat surprised at the amount of time it has been taking to come forward with that action plan, particularly given the statement in a press release on March 8 which said, quite clearly, that the plan is expected to be ready within one month. So we are now looking, at least, at about one year later than the announcement in that press release. I would certainly be interested in knowing why this delay. What has been taking the Minister and thin Government so long to come forward with a plan of action on the Women's Initiative?

I will ask that in conjunction with the question tied to the Minister's most recent statement on this matter in October of 1989 when the Minis ter said the majority of the recommendations have been acted on or are in process today. Given that we have yet to see an action plan and seen very few of the recommendations acted upon, is one left to conclude that most of the recommendations are in process? *

(2140) Mrs. Hammond: I think the Member has the wrong idea about the action plan. What we said is that an action plan would begin immediately. Within one month of when we took it to Cabinet it started. It has been going on all year long. What we are stating is that the different initiatives, the different recommendations, that have been acted on-the re was imme diate action on 50 of the recommendations and there are 11 that are under consideration and some modified action on seven, in other words, recommenda tions that we made to departments and they suggested modifications that were accepted. Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis: I would ask the Minister if she would then table that list of recommendations, the 50 4794

Monday, January 29, 1990 that have been acted on. What action has been taken on the seven that are being acted on in a modified way and whatever other numbers she just mentioned? Could she table that complete list so we will have some idea of what recommendations she is talking about and what action has been taken? Mrs. Hammond: As much as I would like to I guess I could go over some of them.

We were planning to table the women's policy and the recommendations that have been acted on in the action plan on March 8, International Women's Day, which would be one year to the date of the Women's Initiative that we announced. Ms.

Wasylycia-leis: Since the Minister seems to be referring to something a little more broadly and has actually used the word "women's policy" and something more broadly than simply the recommendations of the Women's Initiative, can I take it then that there will be solid recommendations on the areas that are noticeably absent in the final report in the recommendations of the Women's Initiative? Mrs. Hammond: The policy will be a complete one, yes. It will be stated and it will be Government. Ms.

Wasylycia-leis: Would it be a fair assumption or a fair question or statement to make and ask the Minister if the issues of pay equity, affirmative action, child care and reproductive health, to name four key issues, are major issues for women in the Province of Manitoba? Mrs. Hammond: Those are all areas that are of major concern to the Government, and I think we have indicated that with the increase in child care funding. far as pay equity is concerned I think I have been over that with the Member.

Affirmative action-we are dealing with that issue right now as far as the audit is concerned that the Premier had requested be held, as well as, an executive policy development that we are putting in place for senior women in Government. Reproductive health is going to be actively looked at by the Women's Health Directorate. Ms. Wasylycia-leis: Actually ! had not asked if they were major concerns of the Government I think know how they feel about those issues. My question was: does the Government view understand these to be major issues of women in the province?

I ask it simply because those are areas that are noticeably absent from the Women's Initiative. Based on my reading of some of the briefs those issues were mentioned over and over again in the consultative process .. Yet the Government has selectively chosen to ig nore th ose recom mendations in the Women's Initiative. I am, needless to say, extremely worried about any forthcoming women's policy if even at this stage those issues are not even addressed. The Minister has said she has provided answers on pay equity.

She knows that for me and for, I would hesitate to suggest, the majority of women in this province those are not satisfactory answers. It is not satisfactory to hear that this Government has decided to halt any movement in the direction of mandatory and pro-active pay equity and instead has resorted to listening once again to business interests and acting only on a voluntary basis.

I would ask the Minister, in addition to those areas which were raised in briefs and raised by women throughout the consultative process and not mentioned in the recommendations, why other issues and specific recommendations were ignored even though they were mentio ned in the recommendations, why the Government was so selective, for example, when it comes to social assistance? Despite the fact that the question of a single-tiered system was mentioned over a dozen time s this Go vernment cho se not to acknowledge that recommendation.

One could go on at some length with the number of areas where this Government has been very, very selective and clearly reinforcing the point made by the Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray) that it seems to have followed a predetermined agenda. My question again is: why were those issues ignored even though the y were rais ed? How are women expected to have faith in this consultative process and believe that this Government is serious if it is not even prepared to listen to what women are saying? Mrs.

Hammond: I think we indicated in the init iative that we were taking the concerns of the women's agenda, the different organizations that generally meet with Government, and their issues were ongoing. We did not feel we had to specifically put child care in the Women's Initiative, although we did have it as a part of our recommendation on education that these were principles that-and the child care task force was going on at the time and every recommendation that we received through the Women's Initiative, we made sure that the task force received those recommendations.

As far as the other areas are concerned, I think that I have indicated, we could have put the world in that. We could have come up with 5,000 recommendations and put absolutely everything that has ever come about. We meet as a Government with the women's agenda, we meet with CORC, we meet with different women's groups. We did not feel that it was necessary to put those specific recommendations in that come to us by way of meeting with the Government.

As far as social assistance is concerned, we made a recommendation to help to make sure that at least women, single parents were helped to get immediately onto social assistance. That was the one area when we were in rural Manitoba especially that we heard time and time and time again the indignities they felt. Those were the areas that the tears came when they told us about their plight trying to access the social assistance in municipalities. Maybe not everyone, but a good majority felt that it was degrading and that they should not have to go through this.

As a Government we made that recommendation, and as of January 1, it was put into place. That was over $2 million and so I think that was a very good initiative. Maybe the Memb er would sug gest th at we do everything at once. We did what was possible. What 4795

Monday, January 29, 1990 we did was help single parents access from a system that the y foun d degrading and very hard to deal with. * (2150 ) Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: There are such things as short term recommendations and long-term recommendations and while we appreciate the need to sometimes act immediately in a less than full and complete way it still is hard to understand why the concerns of women are not acknowledged , at least in terms of long-terms recommendations . The Minister mentioned reproductive health as being something that the Women 's Health Directorate is now working on.

I would ask the Minister as Minister responsible for the Status of Women what position she has taken in working with her colleagues , particularly the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), in terms of, No. 1, the question of the legislation before us federally where we-and I believe, although I have not heard publicly, that the Minister shares the concerns of decriminalization . I would ask the Minister what communication she has had with her colleagues with respect to the decision by her own Government to exclude freestanding clinics from coverage for therapeutic abortions .

Finally, I would specifi cally ask her what she has done about the fact that her colleague , the Minister of Health , has made a decision to ensure that Medicare does not cover the costs of examination of the products of conception even though that examination is absolutely essential for the identification of cancer of the uterus and critically important for the woman' s health . I would ask the Minister, and I am sure she is aware of those issues, I am sure she has received communication from the Morgentaler Clinic on them. They are shocking issues.

I would like to hear her own response , as Minister responsible for the Status of Women , on the matters and what action she has taken to try to get some change out of her colleagues, particularly the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). Mrs. Hammond: On the issue of abortion , this has been an area that we have all had to wrestle with . Our Government has made a decision to fund abortions in hospital settings .

I believe the Premier, during the women's agenda, himself suggested that he did not and I want to clarify this - that criminaliz ation is not the way that he would have first chosen, but if the feder al Parliament chooses to go this way then we would obey the law. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I take it then that the Minister has not expressed her grave concern about the actions of her colleague, the Minister of Healt h (Mr.

Orchard), and tried to change the situation with respect to coverage of these family services at a freestanding clinic such as the Morgentaler Clinic and that she has not expressed any concern about the fact that the costs of pathology , which are necessary for determining whether cancer is present , is not a matter of concern for this Minister . I will go on to other areas given that situation . The Minister has, and the Member for Ellice (Ms . Gray) referenced this , worked on setting up seminars on gender-neutral language .

I have looked at the guidel ines and I am wondering if the Minister can tell us, since she is the one who initiated these workshops, when these guidelines will apply to her own Government. Mrs. Hammond: I want to say that I welcom e the suggest ion from the Membe r for Ellice and tha t the guidelin es are present now. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I guess we have a different

interpretation of what it means to have guidelines in place . I am wondering when we will see all Members of her Government use gender-neutral language when it comes to terminology such as chairperson, and when we will see gender-neutral language in legislation forthcoming from this Government . Mrs. Hammond: The guidelines are supposed to be gender neutral , but I think that maybe if the Member would listen to her own caucus addressing the Chair that possibly maybe she coul d start at home first . I think that we are all trying our best to use gender neutral language. Mr.

Chairman: I am just mindful of the time . Is there a will to pass this sectio n this evening before ten o'clock? The Member for St. Johns. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: As quickly as possible , there is the occasional slip up in our caucus, Mr. Chairpe rson, but I think there has been a deliberate decisio n taken on the part of many of the Minister 's colleagues who refuse to use the term " chairperson ." I think that is where guidelines come into play. We also know we have legislation that is still coming out of this Government which is not gender neutral. I would ask the Minister three quick questions on other areas.

I will do them all together and she can perhaps note them and give me a quick answer on each one of them . Number one , her Government has received a serious request from the orga nization, Prostitutes and Other Women for Equal Rights, for money as a resource centre . The Minister of Family Services (Mrs . Oleson) indicated that is not being considered for this year and did not give any assurances for the next fiscal year. What will the Minister responsible for the Status of Women (Mrs . Hammond) be doing to ensure that their reque st is addressed?

As the Ministe r knows, on Friday the Indigenous Women 's Collective of Manitoba raised very seriou s concerns about abuse in the Native community and felt that this recent study from Ontario was prob ably quite accurate . They are very concerned about the lack of resources they have for IKEWAC. I would ask the Ministe r, No. 1, if she is prepared to put forward some money to have a similar study done in Manitoba on abuse in the Native comm unity; and secondly , what she is doing to ensure that more resources are forthcoming for IKEWAC and that there is no cutback to funding of only a six-month te rm position .

Finally, I would ask the Minister what studies she has initiated to determine the impact of the GST on women ; 4796

Monday, January 29, 1990 and if she has not, if she is preparing to do that, and how she is planning to address the well-documented research , particularly from the national Action Committee on the Status of Women, estimating that the GST could cost jobs of over 100,000 women in Canada. I would ask her quick response on those three critical, important issues. Mrs. Hammond: I will start with the last one first. have brought the GST up to the Minister McDougall to put it on the June agenda. It is going to be on the June agenda. We are doing a study on the impact on women on the GST .

POWER was certainly one of the recommendations that we made in the Women's Initiative. I would hope there will be some help coming to that area, whether it is a resource centre or how some funding comes. I would hope that will be an area that is looked at, whether it is this year or next It certainly is one of the areas we made a recommendation on. I do not think the Member was right here when I mentione d the funding that we had given to the aboriginal women. We have given $10,000 this year to the aboriginal women of Manitoba. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: I was here for it. That is not my question. Mrs.

Hammond: What is your question? Wasylycia-Leis: It was on the study. Mrs. Hammond: Oh, study. We are not planning to do another stu dy. What we want to do, we have been V'Orking with them, we have been giving them funding so that they are able to do something. The Indigenous Women's Collective received $80,000 this year, plus 35,000 for the justice inquiry. The Member, I see, is shaking her head. From 5,000 when she was in Government to, what is it, 100-and-some thousand, a 150 percent increase I think is considerable.

We are looking actively, in working with the aboriginal women, to make sure they do get funding and are able to work to access other monies that are available. My ADM is co-ordinating the provincial Government's response to IKEWAC. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass- pass.

(2) Other Expenditures $1 26,900- pass. (

b) Women's Directorate:

(1) Salaries $426,600- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $71,000- pass. Resolution No. 136: BE IT RESOL VED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding_$763,400 for Status of Women for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1990- pass. That concludes the discussion of the Estimates of the Status of Women. I would thank the Minister and the critics for their co-operation. Mrs. Hammond: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chairman: Committee rise. *

(2000) SUPPLY-ED UCA TION AND TRAINING The Acting Chairman (Mr. Gilles Floch): Order, please. I would like to recall the Committee of Supply. We were considering Resolution No. 30, Financial Support - Schools. We are currently on 3.(a)-the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Mrs. Iva Yeo (Stu rgeon Creek): I would like to just ask a few more questions in line with the questions that we were asking. I thought maybe we would finish before then but it did not happen, not finish all the Estimates, just finish this particular appropriation.

There are some concerns that have been raised by the home schooling people with regard to in particular the lack of the universities accepting the home school students into the university facilities. There was some thought of some of them taking their concerns to the Human Rights, because they stated that in fact there was discrimination against those students who at the time that they reached the age of 18 and completed high school or even 17 and completed high school and may have applied to the universities for entrance were denied entrance because their courses did not meet the requirements.

Yet at the age of 21 they could then apply and be accepted as a mature student, and therefore the Human Rights Commission was perhaps going to enter into the picture. Can the Minister tell me if he is aware of this having happened or what his position is as far as this kind of discrimination? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Acting Chairman, I have to indicate that I am not aware of any specific circumstances where this has happened.

It is really up to the univ ersity to set their own admission requirements, but I have not heard of any specific case where an individual was denied entrance to university on the basis that the Member has just brought forth. Mrs. Yeo: Yet the univ ersities are saying that it is the Department of Education that sets the curriculum standards that the universities have to follow. Now the Minister is saying it is up to the university to set the standards.

That is precisely what I was saying before, that the student is caught in the middle with the universities saying we have to follow the Department of Ed, and now the Minister is saying it is up to the university to set the standards. I think it is the chicken and-egg thing, and I would like to ask him which comes first. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, all I was saying is, the admission requir ements or the entr ance requirements for university are set by the university.

The Department of Education has responsibility to set the core area subjects if you like that students require in order to obtain a senior matriculation-I guess that is the old term-but a Grade 12 standing. When a student takes his transcript with him/her then it is up to the university to deal with it from that point on. Certainly for home-schooled students that is a whole different game. As I say that is really up to the 4797

Monday, January 29, 1990 universities to determine whether or not they would recog nize tho se programs. The Department of Education has very little to say about that. Mrs. Yeo: Well, there are some who say that instead of requiring equivalent content that we should require equivalent ability.

As we said earlier this afternoon the lack of admission exams, if you will, established by the universities perhaps is a problem, and I do not know what influence the Minister may have in that area, but I wonder if there has been dialogue to see whether in fact these people have, the people who are applying and were turned down, equivalent ability. Mr. Derkach: That is an area, Mr. Acting Chairman, that one can look at. Before we even get to that step I think we have some homework to do, if you like, with regard to setting some criteria for home-schooled students.

Yes, there is a need then to dialogue with universities and establish some criteria or some acknowledgment of programs if, in fact, they will be acknowledged by the Department of Education once we have achieved that sort of compromise or that negotiated position with home-schooled students and the department. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Roch): Item 3.(a)-(pass). 3.(b)-the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Mrs. Yeo: I have just one question. The objective there talks about various educational organizations, and I am wondering if ther e is a list of th ese educ ational organizations to which this objective refers.

Mr. Derkach: Yes, there is, Mr. Acting Chairman. I could take the time to read these. However, I was wondering if the Member would like them read or can I table them for her use. Mrs. Yeo: I would be pleased just to have a list to put in my files or look at if that is ok ay. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I would like to table these but not at this moment because we need to make some alterations. I have some notes written on this particular set, so I would be pleased to table it tomorrow afternoon. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Roch): Item 3.(b)- pass. 3.(c)-the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Mrs.

Yeo: There are concerns. I do not know where these should be asked, but there are concerns again in an MTS update that enrollment in private schools has risen by 69 percent over the past 20 years while public school enrollment has dropped by 15 percent. I hate to take an

article out of one single periodical and use it as gospel, and I have looked at Manitoba statistics and they do not seem to indicate that sort of increase. As a matter of fact, I have been told quite frequently that with an increase in funding to the independent schools, which was implemented during the Schreyer regime-which I always find rather amusing because the NOP, in a way of slamming any increases to the independent school, likes to take pot shots at the private schools. They always throw St.

John's-Ravenscourt at us and talk about elitism, and those who are currently in the House know that in fact a lot of the students that enrol! in these schools are from ordinary families, lower middle class, middle class families, just like those who attend the public schools. I do have some concerns with increasing funding we may jeopardize the already declining factor in some parts of our province. I wonder if there are any statistics that wou ld sup port this dramatic increase in independent school enrollment at the same time that there is a tremendous drop in the public school system. *

(2010) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, yes, there has been an increase in the numb er of stude nts going to independent schools over the last 18 years or so, but I note that since about 1983 the number of schools and the numbers of students there has been fairly constant. As a matter of fact, in 1983 the number of students in independent schools was 9,303 and in 1988 the numbers indicate that there were 10,003. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Roch): Item 3.(c)-pass.

Resolution No. 30: RESOL VED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $488, 776,000 for Education and Training for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1990- pass. Item 4. Program Development Support Services. 4.(a)(1)-the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Mrs. Yeo: The staff of Manitoba Education includes many co-ordinators for mathematics, language arts, that sort of thing. There I believe is a co-ordinator for Ukrainian studies and I am wondering if this particular individual or this position is going to continue. Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr.

Acting Chairman, there is a co ordinator or consultant of Ukrainian studies but there is also a consultant for multicultural studies, and both those positions will continue. Mrs. Yeo: What about the consultant for Science? That individual or that position is going to continue as well? Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Acting Chairman, that position has been filled and will continue. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Roch): Item 4.(a)(1)-pa ss. 4.(a)(2)-the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Mrs. Yeo: Is Manitoba Text Book Bureau under this particular heading? No? Yes? Go ahead, thank you.

I have just one question under this particular bureau. kno w tha t the Go vernment is talking ab out decentralization, and I am wondering if there is any move to decentralize this particular branch of the Manitoba Ed. 4798

Monday, January 29, 1990 Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, there has been discussion about a variety of branches in all departments across Government regard ing decentralization, but at this point in time no decision has been made with regard to any branch or any division of any department to my knowledge. Certainly there have been discussions.

The department has been consulted about a variety of services that could be decentralized, and if we went down our list I would think that we could name many, many, but certainly no particular decision has been made on any branch or any division in the department at this point in time. The Acting Chairman (Mr. Roch): Item 4.(a)(2)-pass; 4.{b)(1) - (pass). 4.(b) (2)-the Honour able Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek. Mrs. Yeo: There are many parents who are faced with the dilemma of where to place their new children starting to school for the first time.

I certainly, during my years as a trustee and continuing now, had a lot of parents ask my opinion, however humble my opinion might be, as to what I thought about the French immersion kindergarten, the French immersion Grade 1. Over the years I have become very cognizant of the difficulty that parents face and have thought to myself if I had to face this decision when my four children were entering kindergarten in St. James-Assiniboia, I would not have had the option to place them in a French immersion school, let alone one, as I do have one, within walking distance of my home.

It seems to me that it would be adviseable if there were some testing mechanism or some assistance for parents making these decisions. I am wondering if there has been any move towards assisting parents, from the department's level, in making this decision, either as they enter kindergarten or Grade 1 or part way through the Grade 1 period, albeit certainly the teacher could assist parents at that level in making that initial decision.

Sometimes when the parents make the decision to place their children in a certain French immersion school, be it single track or dual track, they then have a reluctance to pull that small child out and plop them into another school if they do not know how well that French immersion school is working. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, it is really up to the parent to make th at kind of cho ice, we all understand that.

But within the Department of Education and Training, we have the BEF division or the Bureau de !'education francaise that will assist parents if they so require, and if they would make their names known to the branch that branch would certainly assist. Mr. Guy Roy is the Assistant Deputy Minister of that branch, and they would lend the parent as much assistance as they possibly could to make that kind of choice that the parent would like or the parent is seeking to make. Mrs.

Yeo: From time to time, our Leader has asked questions regarding compulsory drug, alcohol, family life programs, and I think many of us on this side of the House have some concerns, as I am sure the 4799 Honourable Minister has as well, with the tremendous identification of drugs and alcohol as a problem for our school children and our school children's families.

The Minister has mentioned on several occasions the Manitoba High School Athletic Association program Target and I would ask the Minister what kind of funding is available to the MHSAA for funding the ongoing production of the Target Magazine that the Athletic Association produces? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, there has been no request directly to us with regard to funding that magazine. I think it may come through the Department of Industry, Trade and Tourism, through the area of sport, but I would have to indicate that, yes, drug and alcohol abuse education is important.

We have realized that there are many programs out there, excellent programs I might add, which address the problem, but there is no focus if you like or a co-ordinated effort to deliver this programming. *

(2020) So for that reason four departments have now come together and have struck a planning committee. That committee has been looking at the issue on how we can tie this program, or all of these programs, together into a unified delivery mechanism whereby we could address not only the problem that exists in the school but in fact the problem that exists with teenagers and young people around the school and in the communities. As soon as we are in a position to make some kind of an announcement in that regard, we will.

I might add that together with the various departments we also have the RCMP involved and the Winnipeg City Police as well, so that we will in fact try and involve as many people from the community to ensure that the program that emerges will be one that will cover as many areas as we can. Mrs. Yeo: Well, the Score Goals not Drugs program I think is really an admirable one, and the Minister I gather is saying that the MHSAA has not approached him for assistance with funding. I gather that from his answer.

The question has also been put on previous occasions about the mandatory or compu lsor y aspect of presenting the program. Can the Minister indicate how many schools in Manitoba at least offer this program to the students, not just the Score Goals not Drugs program, but any of the drug programs that the Minister has mentioned in the past? llllr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, I am afraid I do not have that information at my fingertips. We would have to research that.

I can indicate that most schools, or at least most school divisions, offer some form of drug and alcohol education; it is offered through the health program. It is a separate unit in the health program, the Family Life Program, as well and schools are taking a pro-active stance on this whole matter. As a matter of fact ju st dur ing the weekend I happened to notice that there was an in-service going

Monday, January 29, 1990 on back in my home town on the Lions Quest Program, and high school teachers were getting together to talk about this whole area and there were teachers from the western side of the province. I note that tonight there is a meeting at Chief Peguis Junior High, this is in the River East School Division, as a response to the survey that was conducted there. This school division is meeting with all of its staff and parents lo also address this problem. I think by and large parents under stand the seriousness of the issue. School divisions certainly do.

It is not as though nothing is really happening out in the school divisions. In terms of a mandatory program, at this point in time, we do not have one in place. I would acknowledge that I am personally in favour of moving toward some sort of program, which has the same prerequisite if you like or the same mandatory aspects as the AIDS program, where students do have the option to opt out, and where parents can pull their child out of the program if they so choose.

I would be inclined to say, yes, it would be a good thing if we could get every school division in the province to offer a program, but allow parents to opt their children out of the program if they so choose. Mrs. Yeo: Well, certainly the need for increased AIDS awareness and AIDS education is very obvious I think when we look at the Canadian study that was done and we see how really poorly our Manitoba students have done. I know there were some rather sick jokes flying around that demonstrated in fact how little our students do know about how AIDS is contacted and the various preventive measures.

I was pleased to see that at least the Minister had lowered the program to include Grades 5 and 6. Again, is this curriculum available to every school, every Grade 5 and Grade 6 in the province, and is it in fact utilized by every Grade 5 and Grade 6? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, this program has been adopted by the department. It has been sent out to all school divisions. All superintendents have it, and all schools are required to offer the program. Parents once again can opt their children out if they so choose.

One other aspect of the new AIDS program, which I think is important, is the fact that we have a parents brochu re, a parents gui de, or information on the program for parents that is being distributed free of charge to all parents. Previously in the old program there was a parents guide available, but parents had to buy it.

We have decided now to make that available at no cost to parents because we feel it is important that parents have the information so they understand what is going on in the school, and so that in fact we could solicit their support for the program so that as many children as possible will be enrolled in the programs. Mrs. Yeo: Can the Minister please outline the process for amending the Correspondence Branch curriculum? The curriculum of the Correspondence Branch, would that not come under Curriculum Development and Implementation? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Chairman, I do not know if I caught the question correctly, but the Member I believe was asking the mandate of the Correspondence Branch and the amending of the programs within the Correspondence Branch? As the Member knows, the Correspondence Branch has been one that has been offering courses for many years. Recent ly, with the technology of distance education coming into place, we are seeing that many of the progr ams tha t were delivered through the tr aditional correspond ence method can now be delivered through the distance education method. The two departments are very closely linked.

Programs are evaluated on a continuing basis. As a matter of fact, the department at the present time is reviewing many of the programs that are offered through the Correspondence Branch to see whether or not we can deliver more through distance education and whether this would be a more effective means of delivering many of the programs that we have. Mrs. Yeo: Would change s ever be made in the curriculum that is used with the Correspondence Branch without some sort of expert review? Would your co ordinators, your consultants be relied upon to assist in changes that are made at the Correspondence Branch? Mr.

Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, the curriculum of the Correspondence Branch if you like is directly tied to the Curriculum Branch, so that indeed before it is changed it is reviewed thoroughly by professional staff to ensure that in fact it follows the intended if you like guides that are set by the department's Curriculum Branch. Mrs. Yeo: Can the Minister provide information on specific changes which were made to the English Language Arts Correspondence curriculum during the past school year,'88-89? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Chairman, I am not familiar with any specific changes that were made to the Language Arts program during the last year. However, I can check with the department and get back to the Member on that question, if indeed there have been some changes. Mrs. Yeo: Can the Minister indicate if the position of director of Curriculum has been filled, and if so, by whom? *

(2030) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, the hiring process has begun, if you like. The position has been advertised and the int erviews will take place next week. In the interim though, Mr. Janzen has been acting director of the Curriculum Branch. Mrs. Yeo: Could the Minister tell me why the director was moved and if in fact an "ti •>fartr"" evaluation had been done on that individual? Mr. Derkach: No, Mr. Acting Chairman, from time to time there is a need to perhaps move staff around 4800

Monday, January 29, 1990 accordance with the department's objectives if you like. We did need a director of the Correspondence Branch. This was a position that it was felt that the former director of the Curr icu lum Branch could fill very adequately and for that reason the change was made. Since then we have advertised the director of the Curriculum Branch and we feel that by filling this position we will attract qualified people perhaps who have new views, new ideas and that sort of thing and it will help to strengthen the direction of the Curriculum Branch.

Certainly there was no indication of any kind that the director who was heading that particular branch before had any deficiencies whatsoever. Mrs. Yeo: Is the Minister indicating then that this will be an open competition? Mr. Derkach: Yes, Mr. Acting Chairman, it has been an open competition. As I indicated, the interviews are going to be held next week. Mrs. Yeo: Just a couple of questions about the Laureate Acade my, Mr. Acting Ch airperson , the Academy advertises that it operates using provincially approved curriculum for Grades 1 to 10. Is this in fact a true statement? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Chairman, when I came into this position, one of the questions that I asked was the same as being posed by the Member for Sturgeon Creek right now. In fact staff did ascertain that the curriculums that are being followed are approved and indeed are being followed as we are following in the public school system. Mrs. Yeo: Why then are students who complete Grade 10 not being accepted in the regular stream when they move into Grade 11 ? They are being told no, you are not accepted in Grade 11 , because in fact the Laureate Academy did not follow the appr oved Manitoba curriculum. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Chairman, I am not aware of a situation like that. Indeed if that has happened in an individual case I would certainly like knowing about it, because I am not familiar with any case of that nature at this point in time. It has never been brought to my attention. Mrs. Yeo: Perhaps the Minister's department could investigate. I will certainly contact the individuals, it is not just one, it is several who have contacted me, and see if I could share their names and their concerns with the Minister's department, because it is a concern.

The environment is, I do not like to say, the in thing because it is very, very important. Certainly there is a lot of attention being paid to the environment. I noticed in one of the things that came across my desk that in fact the University of Western Ontario in London was going to present, have a mandatory subject, that all their Faculty of Management students would have to enroll in. I was pleased to see that it was a first in Canada. I am wondering what curriculum materials this particular department is looking into to enhance the need for environmental education in our young people. 4801 Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Chairman, the department over the last year I guess has been very actively working at dev eloping a prog ram whereby sustainable development and the environment are very important aspects. I could indicate that the new science curriculum which is being written at the present time will have as part of it the very important

section on sustainable development and environment. Indeed we are intending to ensure that not only is sustainable development and the environment a part of the science curriculum, but also the social studies curriculum. There is also a new program being developed on agriculture. It is called agriculture in the classroom, which will have a

section on sustainable development and the environment. Yes, the department is working on those programs. would have to say, Mr. Acting Chairman, that Manitoba is probably taking a very lead role in ensuring that our curriculum does contain sections and throughout it areas which pay special attention to the environment and to sustainable development. Shortly we will be announcing, Mr. Acting Chairman, a consu ltant of sustai nable development and the environment within the department. Mrs. Yeo: The announcement was made that the first school emergency planning course was held.

This was November 13 , 1989, conducted by EMO. I believe it is a pilot program that was sponsored by the Manitoba Association of School Trustees along with Manitoba Education and Training. I am wondering if the Minister could tell me how many people have been exposed, if that is the right word, to this program and is it operating successfully? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, that is not a program of the Department of Education and Training, and therefore I do not have the figures as to how many were involved or how many attended. I can once again get that information for the Member and get back to her. Mrs.

Yeo: I realize the announcement did not come from the Minister's department, but it does say with the assistance from EMO and Manitoba Education and Training. I just thought that there might be some response. The goods and services tax is another current concern. I have had many, many individuals asking what this Government is doing, in particular Manitoba Education, with regard to the concerns that have been raised about many of the things that may well be taxed.

Can the Minister tell me if he has had any correspondence with Michael Wilson or his counterpart in Ottawa stating his concern for the potential for the GST to be appl ied to such things as textbooks, instructional supplies, equipment, furniture, utilities, et cetera, as well as services that may be provided by, and I am thinking particularly of the educational psychologists. I feel very strongly that it would be a crying shame if in fact the services of a. lot of these people are suffering from increasing costs and in fact the federal Government's imposing of this tax on these particular services.

Monday, January 29, 1990 Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, as has been mentioned by not only the Premier (Mr. Filmon) but also by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), we have some very serious concerns about the GST and the way it will be implemen ted into our economy. I have discussed this with the Ministe r of Finance, and he certainly is aware of the concerns that we have. Mr. Acting Chairman, I guess every department in Government can go running to Michael Wilson and try and fight for his or her department.

However, a more co-ordinated approach is more desirable, and for that reason the Premier and the Minister of Finance have been the people who have represented Government with regard to the tax and will continue to represent the Government with regard to the tax . *

(2040) Yes, I have had numerous letters from divisions , from universities, from schools with regard to the negative impact that they are going to suffer. We concur that this is going to be an undesirable effect, and it is going to cost some heartache for us and for many people in the education field. Recently the Department of Education and Training did a survey to see exactly what people really feel out there about this negative tax and how it is going to impact on education. Mrs. Yeo: Well, I certainly agree that perhaps a unified approach may have a little more clout.

I would just urge that some approach be used. Do not forget about the individuals who are involved and are terribly concerned in Manitoba, that the students are very concerned. I think they are upset because they have heard statements from people such as the Secretary of State official , Len Westerberg , who said it is not going to affect students, all students want is a free ride. This to me is an unfortunate sort of statement.

I have been in contact and have several students-having four university students of my own right now at home, I know that those students who cannot afford or whose parents cannot afford to assist them, and certainly the Minister coming from the rural communities knows that rural students have an increased burden upon their backs and find it sometimes a little overwhelming socially , emotionally and financially to have to leave their homes and come into university, and then to have a federal Government impose the GST on top of everything else on the student loans .

A concerted effort in conjunction with his colleagues is great, but, please, let us have a very severe concerted effort and let us hear more about it. I would appreciate seeing some of the correspondence that this Minister has had. I will not ask him to table his phone calls, but I would like to see some of the correspondence. Mr. Derkach: Well, Mr. Acting Chairman, again this is not a matter that is within the jurisdiction of the Department of Education and Training, and I th ink we have expressed our concern about it, our reservation about it, and I can assure the Member that our Premier (Mr.

Filmon) and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) will be taking our concerns to the federal Government on our beh alf. Mrs. Yeo: Just a touch on the alcohol prob lem again, a concern has been raised to me by some resource people in our province about the need to assist students who are having difficulty , and they find out that in fact it is because they are children of alcoholics .

The re is a concern raised by some resource people that these children are somewhat in jeopardy because-I believe it is under the age of 12, it may be a little higher they are not allowed to come forward to state their concerns without parental approval. A lot of them are afraid to state their concerns. In Ontario I believe, under the Mental Health Act, students are protected, or children are protected, and they can have assistance without having the parents sign on the dotted line.

Has there been any move from this Government, from Manitoba Education, to assist students who are having problems and want to talk to somebody because they come from alcoholic homes to take them off the hook so to speak? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, the problem out there is not one that is strictly associated with school; it is one that goes beyond that. Certainly it does affect school children in some areas of our province. Our guidance counselling programs in schools certai nly address this issue and gather information about the problem. The AFM has been more than happy to assist where they can .

Yes, I understand that this is part of the overall problem of the Alcohol and Drug Abuse Program, the Prevention Program. Just like with the AIDS prog ram, education is the best prevention that we can offer to students and school-age children. Certainly school divisions have some concerns in that regard, and many of them are taking whatever precautions and whatever steps they can in order to assist and to get these students back on track and back on the right road, but it is not an easy problem . We do not have a specific program that is channelled especially for those students who have a problem in that regard.

Mrs. Yeo: I was so deep in reflection on the answer that I almost forgot to get up again . The High School Review is perhaps one of the greates t sore points with a lot of people in Manitoba , and it has certainly got in a lot of press lately . The individual who wrote the

article in the Free Press a few weeks ago was quite upset. I was somewha t disturbed when I read the May 26, 1989 press release tha t stated a High Schoo l Review advisory body had been forme d because for months, I had been aski ng the Minister when we would see the High Scho ol Revie w Report. When it finally came and I spen t two and a h alf minutes looking through it and read ing it th oroug hly, I was really upse t because I thought, good heavens, severa l of us could have sat down and put together this report.

Then the review of the review came a long and the same individu als were pla ced in control of this review of the review. The n on May 26, the Minister announced this committe e, and at the end he says, the committee is expected to prese nt a report to the Minister by the end of July. Can the Min ister tell me 4802

Monday, January 29, 1990 just which year he was referring to when he said by the end of July? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, first of all we have addressed this topic several times during Question Period. I have addressed it with the Member privately, and she knows that the Policy Advisory Committee on the High School Review is going to report at the end of January; it is not July.

Yes, when we struck the committee in the beginning, we thought that we could in fact get the Policy Advisory Committee to go through the report and be able to recommend the implementation process perhaps before the end of the summer, but one of the things in Manitoba is that teachers like to take their holidays. People like to take their holidays during the summer months and for that reason there was some delay. *

(2050) Second, when the committee did come together and looked at the report seriously, they realized very quickly that there was going to be a great deal of discussion and debate with regard to the implementation process if you like and that they would not be in a position to make any recommendations to me or to Government for some time. Mr. Schellenberg, who is the Chairman of that committee, came to me and said that it was not going to be possible for them to make any kind of substantive recommendations before the end of the year.

I think that it is important to note that what we wanted to do was have a thorough report made rather than a partial one, th at we wanted to giv e that committee time to examine all the responses that came in. There were some 230 responses, and it was important for them to go through it very carefully. With the help of staff, that has happened. The committee has worked exceptionally hard; they have been meeting almost on a weekly basis. As a matter of fact, the Chairman of the committee has spent entire weeks in the city here working on the report without going home.

So you can understand the kind of task this has been for the comm ittee. My understanding is that they have had 18 meetings to date on that report. I think it is so crucial to the future of our high schools that it is important for us to take whatever steps necessary to ensure that whatever process evolves it is one that is thought through very carefully, one that really represents the feelings of Manitobans and of educators in this province and one that will indeed address the issues that we have heard so much about recently.

I am talking specifically about such issues as quality of education, standards of education, about the fact that we have an illiteracy rate in this province that is unacceptable, the fact that we are graduating students who perhaps are deemed to be illiterate, the fact that business has something to say about our graduates, that they do not measure up. Universities have had a great deal to say. I think all of those have to be taken into consideration when the Advisory Committee makes its recommendations for implementation. Yes, there are some 69 recommendations that the Memb er for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs.

Yeo) refers to in Challenges and Change

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-113b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 113b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	50c522454dff597f8d2640d06c5149a499bb8607

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).