Manitoba Hansard — 18 April 1980 (Sitting 40, 31st Legislature, 4th Session)

31-4-40

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 18 April, 1980 Time - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Rus sell): Presenting Petitions . . . READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. CLERK: Petition of Victoria General Hospital, praying for the passing of

an Act to amend

an Act respecting Victoria General Hospital. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. ABE KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted a certain resolution directed me to report same and ask leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Dau phin, that report of Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement to make to the House. Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to announce to the House that a Letter of Intent has been signed between the province of Manitoba and International Minerals and Chemical Corporation (Canada) Limited, that permits the company to undertake detailed exploration and evaluation of known potash deposits in a prescribed area of western Manitoba. The company is a Canadian subsidiary of International Minerals and Chemicals Corporation, a major fertilizer concern based in Chicago. The Canadian firm and its parent company currently operate Potash Mines in Saskatchewan and New Mexico.

The Letter of Intent which was signed by my colleague, the Minister of Energy and Mines, requires IMC Canada to undertake detailed seismic exploration and addi tional sub-surface drilling that is necessary to delineate fully the potash deposits and to permit a detailed pre development study. It has the sole right to conduct a $2 million exploration program which will begin this spring. The area involved, Mr. Speaker, is south and west of St.

Lazare in western Manitoba and we estimate that the Crown-owned potash rights in the area rep resent nearly half the potash potential that might be contained in a viable mining operating area. I might add that we are encouraged by the production and marketing expertise that IMC Canada has offered and we look forward to proceeding in partnership with them to develop the potash deposits.

Under the terms of the Letter of Intent, the province will retain a 25 percent right of participation in devel opment of the deposits if mining is feasible and will grant IMC Canada first right of refusal in event of future divestiture of interest. In either event, Mr. Speaker, the province will receive royalty payments in addition to any return on its equity. We have named David S. Robertson & Associates of Toronto as our consultants in respect to our interest in the deposits. Mr.

Speaker, we are advised that the information gen erated in the 1980 Exploration Program will enable a decision concerning mining operations to be arrived at. While details as to the scale of any operation and investment are still to be determined, we firmly believe that if any development is proceeded with, it will make a significant contribution over the next two or three decades to Manitoba's economy, and particularly to the economy of southwest Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. SAUL MILLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We, on this side, welcome this announcement.

It is not quite as new as it may sound because it was being examined and looked at a number of years ago. Of course, with the market for potash growing as it is, it is becoming a very marketable commodity. It has always been known that although Saskatchewan might have the bulk of potash, just as Alberta has the oil, that on the other hand, there are potash deposits in Manitoba. The extent of it is not really well known. We hope, of course, that it is very extensive. We hope that there will be enough there to last 50 years at very intensive mining. What I find interesting, Mr.

Speaker, is the fact that the province apparently will retain a 25 percent right of participation in the development of the potash. I find it interesting, intriguing, and slightly amusing. Because if have heard anything in this House, we have heard that the government has no right to be in the private sector, that the government has no right to involve itself in these things, that the government should stay out of business. Well, here we have 25 percent. My only regret, Mr. Speaker, is that it isn't 50 percent.

This should be a joint development so not only Manitoba gets jobs and some royalties, but that Manitoba really benefits, so the profits that accrue to the company, accrue to the province as shareholders, not simply as job holders which, eventually the mine is completed and the jobs disappear, or the profits are taken and invested some where else, and I wouldn't blame them. I notice they are in Saskatchewan and Mexico and I don't blame the company; they will make money here and they will in vest it in Mexico, which is only proper. But Manitoba should be joint 50-50 partners with this firm. Mr.

Speaker, I welcome this announcement today and I welcome even more the fact that this government, for whatever its reasons, whatever they are, has seen the light to the extent of 25 percent; maybe they will now see the light for 50 percent. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion. Order please. Or der please. 2667

Friday, 18 April, 1980 INTRODUCTION OF BILLS MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS (St. Boniface) on be half of Mr. Green, introduced Bill No. 44,

an Act to amend The Medical Act. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Urban Affairs, I gather he is going to Ottawa with the city of Winnipeg to make a joint submission to the federal government vis-a-vis the railway relocation. Is the prov incial government prepared to participate to the same extent as the city in its share of the funds required to move the rails? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, as I see the meeting with the federal minister next week, it will be basically to ascertain the intentions of the federal government and to obtain from them specific commitments from them with respect to whether or not they are prepared to deal with this question of relocation and what financial commitment they are pre pared to make. So I see the resolution from the City of Winnipeg Council as a means of ascertaining from the federal government what commitments they are prepared to make, because I believe that's where it has to start, Mr. Speaker.

There has to be a commitment from the federal government before the city or the prov ince can really deal with this issue. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate that a com mitment from the federal government is required. I'm wondering, Mr. Speaker, the Minister doesn't agree, however, that just as Winnipeg has voted to commit themselves to a certain percentage that the province should at least, in going to Ottawa, make that same commitment, because unless all three parties commit themselves nothing is going to happen. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, as the Member for Seven Oaks will be well aware, there has to be a com mmitment from the federal government. The federal government have delayed the construction of the Sher brook-McGregor Overpass for some time now, and a specific commitment must be obtained from them as early as possible in order that the transportation prob lems of residents of his constituency, in the north end of this constituency, can be dealt with. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, precisely, there has to be commitments by the federal government. But surely, Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Urban Affairs, doesn't he appreciate the fact that the provincial commitment must be there as well, otherwise we'll be going around the mulberry bush another five years. I'm wondering whether the province cannot at this point going to Ot tawa, be able to say to the federal government, we are committed to such and such a percent. Now, on what basis will you participate and what is the extent of your participation? Isn't that going to elicit more information and we'll know where we stand rather than just this constant bickering back and forth and no one knowing where they're going? MR.

MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, it is my view that before any commitments are made by either the city of Win nipeg or the province, the federal government is the key to rail allocation or relocation of the yards, and before we can really deal with this issue at the provincial level, we have to be assured of what the commitment is from the federal government. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minis ter. Surely the Minister realizes that this is something that's going to have to be financed and done and de cided by the three levels of government.

If the Minister is going there to negotiate, he must be empowered to make some commitments. If every level of government would say ... MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. Order please. I suggest the honourable member is debating. If the member is seeking information, maybe he would like to rephrase his question. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister. If the Minister feels that they are ready to make a com mitment at this time, can he tell me why he's going to Ottawa? Wouldn't it be advisable, I ask the Minister, to wait till he gets a letter from Ottawa to see if they are going to participate in this?

And then doesn't the Minister believe that then he can go to Ottawa and negotiate and see what part the province will play? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that the prov incial government will be reasonable in its participation in rail relocation, if that is what is eventually agreed upon, but we have a situation here where the province has already made a commitment towards the construc tion of the Sherbrook-McGregor Overpass.

I have al ready indicated to the city with respect to the UT AB funds that we were prepared to allocate those funds to rail relocation in the event that relocation is pro ceeded with and not the Sherbrook-McGregor Over pass. There already is a commitment in that manner, Mr. Speaker, but I think it's essential to relocation that the federal government make a commitment because relocation cannot proceed successfully unless there is a commitment by the federal government, firstly, Mr.

Speaker, to order relocation, to make a specific finan cial commitment and to deal with the question of cost to all the parties, not just the three provincial govern ments but the railways, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Mr. Speaker, further to the Minister of Urban Affairs, he refers to UT AB funds. Are those the funds that are channelled to Manitoba through the fed eral government? 2668

Friday, 18 April, 1980 MR. MERCIER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, those are the funds that are channelled to the provincial government and are allocated by the provincial government MR. MILLER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Then in that case, Mr. Speaker, I am really wondering what the prov incial ministry is going to offer to both the city and to the federal government since the money he is talking about is indeed federal money; it's not provincial money at all. Is the province not going to put up any money at all to assure that something happens with the railway tracks of the CPR? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, the province, as I have indicated, will be reasonable but, again, the federal government has to indicate their commitment to this. As the Member for Seven Oaks will well remember, he and his government abandoned any concept of relo cation of the lines or the yards and took the position that the Sherbrook-McGregor Overpass should be dealt with because of the delay at the federal govern ment level with respect to this matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Bran don East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to address a question to the Minister of Economic Development respecting the F-18A fighter aircraft. Last week the Minister indicated publicly that a chain would be formed under Mr. Murray Armstrong to start Monday morning, which would have been five days ago, to see the McDonnell Douglas people, sub contractors, and to quote the statement, and everybody. I wonder if the Minister could advise who else is on this team, and exactly what plan of action does the team have? I presume it's already working this week, today, this morning. What plan of action does that team have? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Eco nomic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, the member is quite right that the group of people with Mr. Armstrong and the other people in volved in the aerospace part of our department have already set up meetings with McDonnell Douglas. They have set up meetings with the federal government rep resentative that has been appointed. They have already started to contact the subcontractors which they know will be supplying McDonnell Douglas and will have to make a commitment to do things in Canada.

They are working with the people of our aerospace industry, also, to make representation. The third point, Mr. Speaker. that the member brings forward. We have been working since November or December of 1977; we contacted the six people that made proposals and followed that up very closely; when it came to the short list, we followed that up very closely.

I advise the House that the government, with great assistance from private industry in this province, have been exceptionally thorough and I assure the member that they know where to go and what to pres ent to these people, hopefully to have them come here for the benefit of the people of Manitoba. The member asked me a question the other day, asking if we were aware that the CF-100 would not be serviced - naturally when it is phased out that there would be problems with the servicing.

I would like to report to the member that we started to discuss this problem with the federal government as early as January 25, 1978, and we have had many meetings with them on that subject since. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Honour able Minister mentions the CF-100. I would like to ask the Honourable Minister a question with regard to what I believe is about 150 jobs that are now involved in either maintaining or artly maintaining this aircraft at the Bristol Aerospace Industry in Winnipeg. Knowing that the new F-18 fighter aircraft will begin to be delivered, according to the

schedule in late 1982, at the rate of two aircraft per month, can the Minister advise how long these 150 jobs will be safe at Bristol Aerospace, those jobs related to the CF-100. MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, the advice that has been communicated to me by the people in the industry in Manitoba who service the Voodoo aircraft, is that the jobs are now down to approximately 150 and they don't expect them to go any lower than 150 for this reason: The government of Canada does not intend to have those airplanes grounded before the others come onstream.

I think the honourable members would be very surprised if the government of Canada did that. The Voodoo will be kept flying until the new airplanes are started to be delivered and the honourable mem ber, if he would just think a little bit further about this, if they are being delivered at two a month I would sug gest that the Voodoo would be phased out at two a month. So there is still going to be work on the Voodoo for quite some time. As I said, I have had communi cation from the industry that the jobs will not go down under 150. That's the information I have at the present time. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Mines and is with respect to the statement that has been released this morning. I note that under the terms of the Letter of Intent, the province will retain a 25 percent right of participation, which is not necessarily that they will do it. So I ask the Minister under what conditions his gov ernment would consider exercising the 25 percent right of participation under this agreement? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. HON. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr.

Speaker, the intention of the government by this announcement is to indicate that the government will retain the 25 per cent interest. There will be an option clause there that if, at some future point in time after that, the govern ment wished to divest itself, that first right of refusal would go to IMC. But the intention of the announcement is to indicate that the government at the start, if the operation proves viable, will retain a 25 percent equity. MR. BOSTROM: My second question to the Minister, in light of his statement, Mr.

Speaker is, would the gov ernment be prepared to increase their participation to a level of perhaps 50 percent of participation within the development, and would this be possible under the 2669

Friday, 18 April, 1980 terms of the Letter of Intent and the agreement signed so far with this company? MR. CRAIK: As the statement indicates, Mr. Speaker, the Letter of Intent spells out a 25 percent equity po sition for the government. To some extent the question is hypothetical, as also the announcement indicates that less than 50 percent of the potash mineral rights in the area are owned by the Crown. So if you wanted to expand your equity to 50 percent, you would be facing the proposition of either expropriating private rights or obtaining other private rights. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ru pertsland with a final supplementary. MR. BOSTROM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I note that they have named David S. Robertson & Associates of To ronto as consultants to protect the interests of the province of Manitoba in this matter. I ask the Minister, would it not have been possible for the government of Manitoba to consider hiring people from Manitoba, a Manitoba firm, to undertake this task?

I ask the Min ister, are there not people in Manitoba with the nec essary engineering and mining expertise to undertake this task and to protect the province's interests without having to go to Toronto for consultants? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, this firm has been specif ically pointed out at this point in time because they have a worldwide experience in this regard and they're probably the most knowledgable consultants that we know of in this particular area.

They have been rec ommended as well, of course, by the people in Mines Department, who themselves are probably as knowl edgable as anyone else in Manitoba with regard to this area of interest. It was the people in the department who recommended that we engage the Robertson firm for these purposes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK (Transcona): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister responsible for Public Health.

In view of the fact that a court in Ontario has ruled that the federal government does not have sufficient jurisdiction to enforce health inspections which showed levels of pork in what was advertised as beef and that this may be hazardous to health in that the pork and beef would have to be cooked longer than people might otherwise feel, is the Minister looking into this particular problem to ensure that the jurisdictional matter is cleared up and to ensure that the public, either through the federal government or through the provincial government, does have suf ficient jurisdiction to enforce health standards espe cially now that we're entering a barbecuing season, especially with large public groups where you could have some very serious consequences if the health standards aren't maintained?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I want to assure the honourable member that my department is looking into that anomaly. I have no information I can give him at the time but I'll provide it as soon as possible. MR. PARASIUK: My question is to the Minister of Mines.

I would like to ask him if the government has taken any action to secure the mineral rights that are not held by the Crown right now, in order to ensure that the benefits of the development costs actually ac crue to those people who are undertaking the devel opment or is it the government's intention to be involved in something which may of benefit to those people holding peripheral rights but who are doing no development work whatsoever? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. CRAIK: I have to admit I don't even know what the member is asking. MR.

PARASIUK: If I could clarify my question to the Minister, who possibly doesn't understand that there are freehold rights and Crown rights relating to mineral resources, is it the government's intention to acquire the freehold rights to insure that the development costs undertaken to determine whether in fact the potash mine is feasible will in fact result in benefits gaining to those people undertaking the development work or is it the intention of the government to do development work which will be of benefit to people who are not participating in the development work? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, it is still not very much clearer. Naturally if there are small holdings that are in the area, it is quite conceivable that they would claim royalty rights. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tran scona with a final supplementary. MR.

PARASIUK: I would like to ask the Minister if he can confirm that one of the companies owning mineral rights in that area, which may be a great beneficiary of this joint effort by the government, is indeed lnco, and if lnco is in tact one of the holders of mineral rights that they should either be participating in the devel opment or that the government should take out their interests so that the people of Manitoba will gain a greater benefit from this possible development? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, there are any number of parties that may own mineral rights in the area.

The member refers to lnco; there is a major company that owns at least as much as the Crown does in this general area and it was the former Prairie Potash Company that did the work in the 1960's in that area. So it goes without saying that without their involvement, not through the government but through the efforts of IMC, in putting this together that that will have to be a consideration. MR SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (So uris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, I would like to respond to a question posed yesterday by the Member for Ste.

Rose and advise him that the Mossey River Dam is open and that the flow through the Fairford Dam is 4,000 cubic feet per second. 2670

Friday, 18 April, 1980 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My ques tion is to the Minister of Mines. While we welcome the government's announcement of detailed exploration and evaluation of previously known potash deposits, we are of course interested in the details of the program and would ask the Minister if he is prepared to table pertinent documents and correspondence and, in spe cific, the Letter of Intent between International Minerals and Chemical Corporation and the people of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. CRAIK: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, in due course there will be other Order-in-Council documents which, of course, will be public documents as well. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, according to the announcement today, we are also informed that a two million dollar exploration program will begin this spring in regard to this known deposit. Can the Minister indicate over what period of time that exploration will be taking place? In other words, is it a one-year or a two-year, or a three or five-year exploration program? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I think it indicated in the statement.

In case it didn't, the required additional ex ploration activity that appears to be necessary will be done entirely in 1980. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Church ill with a final supplementary. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Well, it is in teresting to note that the government is now flirting with socialism and I feel it is incumbent upon myself to warn them, like being a little bit pregnant, it is difficult to be just a little bit socialist, and we will welcome them over on this side eventually, I am certain.

My question to the Minister is, can he indicate if this flirtation with socialism, this partnership, was brought about as a result of a request by the company or did the government force themselves upon the company in this regard? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I know the Member for Churchill probably would know a fair bit about social ism, I didn't know he knew that much about being pregnant. With regards to his question, I would have to advise him that this came about by way of mutual agreement. It takes two to tango, and the two tangoed, and this is it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR.

SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to tvarish (comrade), the First Minister.

I would like to ask the First Minister if, prior to entering into this arrangement, there was a review of the pre vious decision which was made by the government and lnco with respect to proven reserves in the area; that it was not opportune for the development of these re serves as indicated by the consultants to government and lnco, whether in view of this exploration for new reserves, it does not makes sense to see whether the development of the proven reserves which the govern- ment and lnco, as comrades in arms, were considering proceeding with. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR.

CRAIK: Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, I can answer on behalf of the First Minister. in that regard.

The same information, the same exploration information which of course is logged with the Department of Mines and with the co-operation of the former people - he refers to lnco; I think he more specifically means the Prairie Po tash that did the work primarily in the 1960's when the heavy amount of exploration work was done that in formation was all supplied to IMC and the present de cision is based on all of the available, and I think that means all of the test holes that have been done his torically, they have been assessed by IMC and the pres ent decision is based on that. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, the fact that the Commissar of Finance has answered rather than the First Minister, may I ask the Commissar whether he is talking about exploring new reserves or whether he is talking about proven reserves that exist in St. Lazare at the present time and which were the subject of a joint feasibility study as between the International Nickel Company of Canada and the government of Manitoba and which determined that in view of the much higher content reserves in Saskatchewan that it was not feasible to proceed at that time?

Can that be reviewed to see whether now there is a possibility of development on a 50-50 basis rather than 25-75? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, the member is referring now, I think, then to the Crown area that at one time was leased by lnco. That information, of course, has been available, is available, it includes that same area. It includes the same area in this present area; it may not include all of it but it includes, I believe, most of the same area. There may be some area somewhat north of the present prescribed area that may not be included but primarily it would include most of it.

That information has led, along with the information that was generated through Prairie Potash to the decision by IMC to proceed at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster with a final supplementary. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister whether it was a condition of concluding this explo ration program that the public of Manitoba retain the right of 25 percent participation, including 25 percent investment? Was that a condition of the transaction being concluded? MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I addressed that question earlier.

The 25 percent position to be retained by the Crown came about through negotiation. It is of course a condition now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rossmere. MR. VIC SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question to the Attorney-General. I had asked him about a month ago with respect to a certain breath alizer decision in a provincial judges court in which it was held that where there were two identical readings 2671

Friday, 18 April, 1980 there must have been something wrong with the ma chine. I had asked at that time whether the Crown was intending to appeal that case and if so what would be happening with other similar pending cases. I wonder if he could provide us with an update on that this morning? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe there is any intention to appeal that decision but I will get back to the member early next week with respect to this matter in greater detail. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

On March 28th, the Honourable First Minister again promised to survey all departments and government agt:tncies in respect to them having commissioned opinion polls the same as had been done in Ontario. Can he inform the House when we can expect an answer to that question? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Soon, Mr. Speaker. MR. FOX: Yes, soon being a four letter word may not be acceptable. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. I would hope that if individual members want to carry on a private conversation that they do it other than on the floor of the House. The Honourable Member for Kildonan.

MR. FOX: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Soon being a four letter word and sometimes not being acceptable and in view of the fact that the First Minister is going to be attending conferences, I wonder if he could delegate this matter to one of his other colleagues so that we can get an answer because I appreciate he has to leave the province next week? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, at the rate of progress that my honourable friends are making in estimates I imag ine that we may be here to hell freezes over and I imagine that we will have the information before then. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR.

WALDING: Mr. Speaker, my question is either to the Honourable First Minister or the Minister of Mines. I would like to ask whether this detailed explo ration and evaluation which will be carried for $2 million will be done by International Minerals and Chemical Corporation Canada Limited, or will it be done by a subsidiary of that company? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I guess the answer is, I fail to see the significance of it but I suppose that is not important, I would assume that most of these com panies sub-contract out their diamond drilling in these cases so I suppose that from that point of view it will probably be some sub-contracting. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Speaker, a question arises fur ther to a previous announcement in this House some 15 years ago that a company was about to come to Manitoba and start and $1 00 million worth of devel opment and we found out afterwords that it was a sep arate Manitoba company and not the company that was originally anticipated. So I am asking the Minister whether this is to be a Manitoba subsidiary of IMC and that is the company of which the government will take a 25 percent position in it, or are they suggesting that they would take a 25 percent position in IMC Corpo ration Canada Limited? MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, I am not sure the member is serious but I have to assume he is. The exploration work is being undertaken by IMC. There is no involve ment of the Crown or any of its agencies in the explo ration work that is being done in 1980. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital with a final supplementary. MR. WALDING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister whether the government of Manitoba has been requested to put up any of the $2 million explo ration funds? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable First Minister. MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps I can attempt to answer some of the agonized questions we are hearing from across the way, to an announcement that I thought would find favour in the hearts of all Manitobans, in cluding our socialist friends. The short answer, Mr. Speaker, to the question is that the development companies are going to be paying the $2 million for the seismic work to be done this summer; the spring, summer and fall.

But my honourable friends I realize are terribly discomforted by all good news that comes to Manitoba and I suppose they really haven't made up their minds whether they are in favour of this because it isn't 100 percent owned or whether they're not. IMC is well known, Mr. Speaker, to the Member for lnkster, because it is one of the major potash producing companies in Saskatchewan which was not expropri ated by the government of Saskatchewan. If my hon ourable friend wishes to have further information about IMC, perhaps he should apply to his socialist friends in Saskatchewan who know their reputation. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Bran don East. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Development Corporation, otherwise know as the Commissar of bus building in Manitoba. Is the government continuing to seek a buyer for Flyer In dustries Limited? Are you actively seeking a buyer for Flyer Industries Limited? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. HON. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Speaker, I guess this particular company points out exactly one of the problems that we have.

If we could find somebody with the type of marketing skills and expertise in the field of bus building that we found in 2672

Friday, 18 April, 1980 dealing in the field of potash, we would probably do much better and the Manitoba taxpayer would not only be not pumping additional funds into that but will also be having a proper industry out there with a sustained employment in Manitoba. We are, Mr. Speaker, as mentioned a year ago, as was the course of action pursued by the former Minister in charge of the Manitoba Development Corporation, looking at possible potential buyers, as well as people who might be interested in partnership or equity po sition.

That has been no secret, that has been an es tablished policy and really, I might say, has been the same as was carried on by the previous Minister who was in charge of the Manitoba Development Corporation. MR. EVANS: I understand, Mr. Speaker, that the company in question now has $60 million worth of bus orders, which will keep it occupied totally up until 1981 or the end of 1981. In view of that, to clarify, I would like to ask the Minister whether they are actively in negotiations with any potential buyer. Is there any ac tive negotiations or any active process of attempting to dispose of this company? MR.

BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, the company faces the same problem it faced a number of years ago when it looked like the company was going to close because of lack of orders, and then what happens is that the personnel in that particular organization, who feel that the company is closing because of lack of orders, then move on to find different jobs. We are now faced with the problem, Mr. Speaker, of trying to rebuild the pro duction line staff and also rebuild the engineering, the assembly as well as the administrative side of the operation.

We are going through, I might add, the same throes that were gone through back in 1975 and 1976. What happens is that it is feast or famine out there and you can't run a business properly that way. The only way we are going to make that company run properly is to try and get a leveled-off production and sales, so that is what we are doing. With regard to the other question, I know people have come through this province looking at some offsets on the Fighter Program.

I know the people from Industry and Commerce have taken some people out there to look at the facility to see if it wouldn't work in with some of things that they want to do. All I can say to the member is that we are actively looking at ways and means of strengthening that operation out there and trying to make it a viable industry in the province of Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Bran don East with a final supplementary. MR.

EVANS: A final supplementary to the commissar of bus building, to the Minister, can he advise us how many people, approximately, are now being employed by that plant in the Transcona area? MR. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, I will undertake to get the exact number. As the member knows, the Tran scona operation is only a part of it. We also have some people employed in the Fort Garry Plant, so I can un dertake to get that. I might add that the order book is full for the first quarter in 198 1 and some decisions will have to be made as far as where we proceed from there.

As I indicated, the Board of the Directors, as well as myself, are concerned to try and get a level of production which is manageable within the marketplace. In other words, we are not going to try and build 600 buses one year and then scale back to 300 the next. I think what has to happen out there is to try and find a break-even point so that if it means 300 or 350 buses, that we produce that and then go ahead and market that par ticular amount of buses.

What we are trying to do is streamline the operation so that we have a constant flow out there, which I might add has been difficult because of sagging markets and some of the other conditions that have existed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I am rising on a point of order. By way of explanation, the Honourable Minister said that the previous Minister responsible for the De velopment Corporation was actively seeking people to buy and/or collaborate with the company. I can tell the Minister that, insofar as I was concerned, Mr.

Speaker, the only approaches that I made were with regard to collaborators, people who would be joint-venturing in particular ways with the company. However, I did not restrict the Board in that respect, but told them that any suggestion that it would be outright sold would have to be dealt with by the government. I did not seek outright buyers for the company. I indicated in every case that I was seeking collaborators. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. MR. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, on the same point of order or point of privilege, let me just say that in 1976, I think Coopers & Lybrand, or somebody was hired to do a prospectus on the company and seek out a pos sible purchaser. All I was trying to attempt to say here before is that the policy that we are following with re gard to that is precisely the same as the previous administration did in trying to . . .

And this government is trying to strengthen the operations out there and if one of the means is that we have to go into a part nership or find somebody that can strengthen out there, bring in certain expertise in the bus building field or otherwise, we will be pursuing that. That has been a stated objective of the government and does not materially differ from what the previous administration did. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for question period having expired, we will proceed with Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY - ORDER FOR RETURN MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Bran don East. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I would move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rupertsland, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return of the follow ing information: 2673

Friday, 18 April, 1980 (1 )The salaries, wages, fees, other types of remunera tion and out-of-pocket expenses paid to the Commis sioner of Inquiry into Manitoba Hydro. (2)The salaries, wages, fees or other types of re muneration paid to support staff retained or contracted to work for the Commission itemized for each person. (3)The number of Provincial Government employees seconded from all departments to assist the Commis sion and the costs involved therein. (4)All payments to persons or firms retained by the Commission to engage in engineering, economic, tech nical or other research on its behalf itemized for each person or firm. (5)All payments to persons or firms retained by the Commission to provide legal services itemized for each person or firm. (6)Any other payments or costs incurred by the Commission.

MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, we will take the Order and provide the information. I might ask for one correction of the Member for Brandon East. I am sure that, as a former economics professor, he would want to spell remuneration as remuneration, not renumeration. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, would you call the Ad journed Debates on Second Reading beginning with Bill No. 2 to Bill No. 27. ADJOURNED DEBATES ON SECOND READING MR.

SPEAKER: Bill No. 2, on the proposed motion of the Honourable First Minister,

an Act respecting the operation of Statute 23 of The Manitoba Act, the Hon ourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Mr. Speaker, could we have this matter stand, but if any member wishes to speak MR. SPEAKER: Is that areeable? (Agreed). Bill No. 5,

An Act to amend The Public Trustee Act. The Hon ourable Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Mr. Speaker, in order to save the time of the House could I have all these bills stand unless someone wishes to speak on these bills? We haven't cleared these bills yet, so I'm not in a position to speak on them at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: In view of that Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Government Services, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House re solved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Health; and the Honourable Member for Roblin in the Chair for the Department of Cultural Affairs. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CULTURAL AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order. We are on Resolution 45, 3. The Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask the Minister for a breakdown of this item, as to what she intends to spend that $800,000 on?

This is up $200,000 or about one-third; I'd like to know if we could get a breakdown? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. NORMA L. PRICE: Yes, the Museum of Man and Nature, $250,000; Multicultural Capital Grants, $70,000.00. MR. DOERN: Well could I also ask the Minister to, as she reads these items, to indicte the purpose of the expenditure, if she has that information? MRS. PRICE: All right, Museum of Man and Nature is $250,000 and that is for exhibit development. You know, they have the five-year plan, where they have the boreal exhibit, that is what it is for.

The initial five-year period ended in 78-79 and it's now proposed that the maximum be raised to $200,000.00. There's $80,000 to complete the Boreal Forest Exhibit and $1 70,000 to refurnish the Museum and Planetarium Galleries and to replace some equipment.

The Multicultural Grants at $70,000 and that's to pre serve, renovate or construct projects, historically or culturally significant to the province, based on a for mula of one-third of total capital cost to a maximum of $50,000 for :ethnic cultural grant; the Centennial Centre is $1 00,000 and that is for stage and drapery replacement $1 5,000, roof repairs $35,000, changes to air handling system $35,000; modifications to the Con cert Hall lighting system $1 5,000.00.

Miscellaneous Capital Grants is $1 35,000 and that's for the Western Manitoba Centennial Auditorium $1 0,000; the French Cultural Centre $30,000; the Winnipeg Art Gallery $55,000. Ukrainian Cultural Centre $40,000 and those are to be upgrading some facilities and equip ment in those areas. In the Historical Resources, there is $1 76,000 and that's for the two Franco-Manitoba Homes that we mentioned last night, the Maison Terrain and the Bohemier House and they are located both at the LaSalle and the Red River junctions.

Both homes were threatened with de struction and we have taken it over and it is expected to be completed within the next three fiscal years. The Regional Historic Sites is $60,000 and speaking last night, during the last several years, it has become increasingly evident that there's many buildings that have significance to the community and region at large. Preserved or restored buildings provide a very inter esting locale for a number of aspects of our rich variety of cultures of ethnic groups and in addition there are significant archaeological sites that are periodically 2674 I

Friday, 18 April, 1980 exposed to the elements and these require immediate salvage if they are to be preserved and understood. The Van Horne rail car is $1 5,000 and I think you are aware of what it is, to preserve it. The museum doesn't have the skills necessary to restore the car so they will be restored elsewhere and the car has been enclosed and there are certain minor preventative measures that are being taken with that money.

The Building Stabilization - structures that have been declared provincial historic sites that have been van dalized and require some stabilization in order to pre vent further vandalism; in particular we're referring to Nesbitt Hall, the first customs house and the goal at Emerson and St. Michael's Ukrainian Church near Gar denton. These all need some structural work and it is planned to carry this out in 1980-81, and that comes to a total of $816,000.00. MR. DOERN: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would commend the Minister for getting a substantial increase in that particular allocation.

I wonder if she can indicate what is happening with the Countess of Dufferin. A few years ago it was taken from its site to be restored; there is a lot of erosion to the Countess. At one time it sat in front of the Royal Alex Hotel; children clambered all over it; o ts were removed from it.

Eventually it was placed near the Disraeli Freeway in a wire fence cage and even there, with I guess car exhaust and other environmental factors, it was deteriorating so it was removed and I believe it was to be refurbished or better preserved and I was just wondering whether there has been any recent discussion about bringing the Count ess out or locating one of the most famous engines in Canadian history somewhere where it could be seen by the public. MRS. PRICE: I will have to get back to the Member for Elmwood with that information. I don't have it. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Highways.

HON DON ORCHARD (Pembina): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On that subject that brings up a topic that is very near and dear to my heart.

The thriving com munity of Miami from which I come has a very active railroad museum and should the Minister need storage for the Countess of Dufferin, I am quite sure the op erators of that railroad museum in Miami would be very very interested in adding that to their railroad museum artifact list, and that's one of the only remaining rail road museums and railroad sites in the province and probably in western Canada where there is an actively maintained and operational water tower that dates back to the steamer days; any move to put more em phasis on that museum would certainly be welcomed and encouraged by the residents of the Pembina con stituency, Mr.

Chairman. MRS. PRICE: I thank my colleague for his comments and we will keep it in our mind. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I have to note that the other MLAs on this Committee too, also date back to the steamer days, it wasn't all that long ago, and I know that the Minister of Highways and Transportation is only familiar with the beep of the diesel, but my col- league from Logan, I guess not only saw those steamers but worked on them in his railroading days.

I want to ask the Minister, the land beside the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature was expropriated by the Schreyer administration for an MPIC-MVB building. That was out intention, and the notorious Brunswick Hotel was bought and knocked down, which I think was a major accomplishment, to clean up part of Main Street, and the other properties were acquired. Now that area is used for surface parking and it is obvious in the hands of the Minister of Government Services, but I ask the Minister of Cultural Affairs whether she has had any overtures from the Museum of Man and Nature.

I know that they have long wanted that land for expansion of the Museum and for the building of what they call a Transportation Museum. I was just wondering whether she had been approached or pres sured by anyone with a view to further construction in relation to the Museum. MRS. PRICE: No, Mr. Chairman, I haven't had any requests from anybody with regard to the land. It is still under the umbrella of the Government Services. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, MacDonald House, the home of Hugh John MacDonald, who sits across from us right in this room in painting, was, I think, one of the most successful of all undertakings. It was frightfully expensive. I think they estimated $150,000 and it came in at almost half-a-million, but it is, I think, a great asset. I was just wondering whether any of these projects she has described of home restoration or whether there are any new ones or other ones that are on the drawing boards that would in any way compare to this kind of qualitative historical restoration. MRS.

PRICE: There are others being considered at the present time, but what we want to do is finish up the projects that we have that I have just mentioned. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.-pass. - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, the stretch of road, I for get the name of it, where St. Andrew's Church is on, along the river to Lockport . MRS. PRICE: River Road. MR. DOERN: The River Road, that is what I had writ ten down. Are you involved in that development or is that under the Department of Tourism? MRS.

PRICE: I am advised that could be a part of the ARC Agreement that is just being studied at this time along the corridor of the Red River, but to date we haven't had any . . . MR. DOERN: Is it likely to be under your department or is it more likely to be under Tourism? MRS. PRICE: It would be under Tourism. MR. DOERN: I am not sure what the Minister said; she said it was the something agreement? MRS. PRICE: ARC. MR. DOERN: ARC, what is that? 2675

Friday, 18 April, 1980 MRS. PRICE: A-R-C. MR. DOERN: Does that stand for something? MRS. PRICE: It is a federal-provincial agreement, think it was initiated a year or so ago, and the city is in on it, too. It is under the jurisdiction of the Minister for Economic Development. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, the Centennial Concert Hall, I think what has been long overdue in regard to that very fine structure is a proper sign out front like a marquee that would be, say, comparable to a large motion picture theatre.

When you look at the building as you whizz by, if you were a tourist, I don't know whether people would know what it was. I don't even know if there is a sign on it saying what it is. There is a small sign somewhere in the front, there are some glass signs that can contain posters at the front, but it strikes me that a real oversight or omission about that building and I am sure it is a matter of money is that there should be a marquee where a person could go by, look at the marquee, and see what is there.

For example, the Convention Centre has a small such sign and you always know what is going on at the Conven tion Centre as you go by, and I think it generates busi ness, and it generates interest. When you go by the Concert Hall, you don't know if it is Harry Belafonte or whether it is some theatre performance or the Ballet or the Symphony, it is just not good enough. I wonder whether there has ever been a study made here. I am sure that this has been looked at over the years and always ruled out on economic grounds.

I just wondered if the Minister had looked into this or had been ap proached, or whether she would look into this, because I think it would enhance the Concert Hall. MRS. PRICE: I agree wholeheartedly with the Member for Elmwood that there is signage definitely lacking and we have discussed it, not a great length, but I will give him my assurance that I will go into it more deeply. MR. DOERN: Perhaps we could pass this and go on to the Minister's Salary. MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.-pass. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $816,000 for Cultural Affairs and His torical Resouces-pass.

Now we return to Resolution 43, 1.(a). The Minister of Highways. MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I want to, at this time, when we are dealing with the Minister's Salary, to ex press on behalf of certainly libraries in my constituency, rural libraries in my constituency, and I know that I speak in this regard on behalf of libraries in all rural constituencies throughout the province; they have for some number of years, and I've been involved with them as the MLA representing a couple of quite active libraries in my constituency, those people in the library business or the library industry in rural Manitoba have had very many nagging concerns over the past several years as to funding and the availability of the service to rural Manitobans, I think the Minister is deserving of the highest commendation that we can give her for her efforts in providing additional funding to public li braries in rural Manitoba.

It's a program which, as I've said, has been needed and requested over a number of years and the Minister has addressed herself very well to this issue. It is something that has met with a lot of approval and is very very welomed by the resi dents in my area, my constituency and many others in rural Manitoba.

I'd like to, at this time, thank the Min ister for her efforts on behalf of my constituents and my people who enjoy the library services that are pres ently available in rural Manitoba and, because of her initiatives in providing increased services to library users in rural Manitoba in the future, I want to thank her on their behalf for the anticipated better services that we're going to enjoy in rural Manitoba, library services. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Henry J. Einarson (Rock Lake): The Member for Virden. MR. McGREGOR: I would like to follow that up, Mr.

Chairman, and I certainly had the pleasure of taking cheques out to the combined Elkhorn and Virden Re �ional Library last weekend, in which I presented to the chairperson, the Mayor of Elkhorn, and we know the problems there and I was always happy for him to take

part in that joint Elkhorn Regional Library. Mrs. Kent, who is a secretary, made the remarks, It's the first time and we are just within 30 days of having to borrow money to keep going, and they really appreciated, on behalf of that board, having the money. Now they're set until things get . . . The change, whatever that change was, they very much appreciate it. Also to Riv ers, who I took again, a cheque out last week and pre sented a councilman that also was Board Chairman of that Regional Library.

Both of these contributions put their particular libraries on a more solid footing and it certainly stabilized them economically for the rest of the summer. So I just say, along with my Minister of Highways, I certainly do appreciate the Minister's efforts in this regard. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Logan. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize to the Minister if the question that I'm going to be ask ing was one that . . . I think it was being dealt with a bit when I -(I nterjection)- Or lightly.

What I would like to ask, through you to the Honourable Minister, is who at the present time is the owner of one of our most historic pieces of memorabilia, the old Countess of Dufferin. Is it the province that is the owner of this, or is it the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MRS. PRICE: To the Member for Logan, I'm advised that the owner is the CPR and I can further elaborate for the question posed by the Member for Elmwood tha' it's under shelter at the CPR Weston Shops. MR. JENKINS: I know where it is; I can tell you where it is. MRS.

PRICE: He had asked me before you came in through and it will be restored and placed on exhibit by the Midwestern Rail Association and the restoration will be undertaken by the CPR. 2676

Friday, 18 April, 1980 MR. JENKINS: Where would this site be, through you, Mr. Chairman, to Madam Minister? MRS. PRICE: They are looking for a home right now and it hasn't been determined just where they are going to be settling; I know they were looking at the old CPR Building. I think they've run into a couple of problems there, but it hasn't been determined just where it is going to be. MR. JENKINS: Yes, Thank you Mr. Chairman.

Since we have, in the Museum of Man and Nature, the set up of an old railway station, in part of the set-up there, has there been any thought of placing the engine within the Museum of Man and Nature itself? The Minister, I'm sure, is familiar with the layout of the museum and I was wondering if perhaps that would be a solution; perhaps the CPR could be interested in putting it in?

I don't know if the structure of the building is strong enough to hold that engine; that is something that per haps there would have to be an engineering review on, but it would be much better if that historic piece of our memorabilia was indoors, because sitting outdoors, there's no doubt that it's going to, over a period of time, deteriorate like it did before. I just wonder if the Minister and her department had made any inquiries on behalf of that. If there is a historic society that is setting up a museum, such as what she said, that is a good thing.

There is a very good one just outside of Montreal - if the Min ister has seen that one - where we have quite a few of our means of transport across this country in years gone by. But the Countess, I'd say, has a very dear spot, I imagine, to all Manitobans, since it was the first steam locomotive in this part of the country and I would not like to see it sit outdoors and deteriorate like it did before. It's unfortunate.

There was a considerable amount of money spent refurbishing the Countess which was refurbished at the CPR Weston Shops and the Minister has said, yes, it is presently housed in what used to be the West Coach Shop in Weston Shops. I have seen it there. I would just suggest to the Minister that if she hasn't taken this under advisement that she seriously consider it and I would like to see it in that area, unless there is going to be something extensive in this - What was it? Midwest . . . ? MRS. PRICE: Midwestern Rail. MR. JENKINS: Midwestern Rail.

Because, there's no doubt, even sitting indoors where it is now, that a cer tain amount of deterioration is setting in on the loco motive and I would just hope ... Well, if she hasn't thought about it, if her department would seriously con sider thinking about asking the CPR if they would be prepared to have it housed at the Museum of Man and Nature. MRS.

PRICE: To the first part of your question, the thought had been entertained some time ago as to housing it in the Museum of Man and Nature, but it is now very seriously thought of that it would be a much more appropriate place to have it in the surroundings at the Mid western Rail Association, and when they get their home that they are looking for now, which they are working on very hard and they certainly have a lot of interesting pieces to add to it, the Countess of Duf- ferin will hopefully be housed with them and it will be under cover; it won't be exposed to the elements of the weather. MR.

JENKINS: I thank the Minister for that informa tion. I am glad to hear that it will be under cover. I really don't know if this is the place or whether it's Tourism but I'll throw the idea out anyway. We are presently using another old locomotive and it's been operating. There's a society that it uses, the Prairie Dog Central, which is running I think on the old CNR line up to Gyp sumville, I believe up to Warren, I think it's Warren or Woodlands or somewhere there were it turns around and comes back again.

With the abandonment of cer tain rail lines there are old railway stations that are becoming available at a very nominal price, - that's not a pun, Madam Minister and there is a rail line run ning very close to Birds Hill Park. Has there ever been any thought of putting, from the line that runs, I believe it is either the CPR or the CNR line that runs up to Grand Beach it runs fairly close to Birds Hill Park of putting a spur line in there, and putting up two or three of these old railway stations?

It solves two problems; at one time, because then during the summer months, especially during Saturday and Sun day when they do run the Prairie Dog Central, the Prai rie Dog Central could run out to what would be the Birds Hill Park with a couple of railway stations with the memorabilia and have it come out again and haul passengers out back and forth. It would certainly be an added tourist attraction to the province of Manitoba - and I think we are all inter ested in Tourism - and it would give some meaning to this run.

It would be a run of maybe 10 - 12 miles on a circular, and they could circle the park and come out again. I just throw this out as a suggestion to the Minster. It may not be under her department. It may come under Government Services; it may come under Tourism; I don't know which, that's one of the problems when you deal with these. But I think, rather than just running out to Warren and back, that thing could be running two or three times a day, taking people out there. It would be a great trip for kids.

You know there are children - I have grand children, in fact I have a son-in-law who has never rid den on a train, period, never ridden on a train. There are many many children in our city that have never had the opportunity to ride on a train, especially an old steam locomotive with the . . . I think one of the things that I perhaps miss, most as far as the modernization and dieselization of the railways, has been the sound of that old steam whistle. It was really something. MR. DOERN: Don't you like the beep of the diesel? MR.

JENKINS: My colleague the Member for Elm wood says, Don't you like the beep of the diesel? To me that doesn't sound like a train at all. If I might, as an aside, say that when the first diesel locomotives came on stream here in Canada, it had the . . . In fact, a friend of mine handled the financial affairs, a chap that took this certain sound out of the diesel engine whistle.

It had a great attraction for bull moose, at the time, especially during rutting season, and what used to happen especially in the western part of Canada in the Rockies and in New Brunswick, they were having a devil of a time with these diesels because the bull 26n

Friday, 18 April, 1980 moose would get on the railway track. He figured it was another bull moose and they had a lot of derailments, and -(In terjection)- No. But this chap that redesigned the beep of this diesel whistle got a considerable amount of money because he got the patent rights and everything for it. A friend of mine who is in the banking industry handled his af fairs, but as I say, as an aside to my colleague from Elmwood, I am not enamoured by that peanut whistle that is on these diesel locomotives. I would much rather hear the old steam whistle. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minster. MRS.

PRICE: To the Member for Logan, I sense a great deal of nostalgia in him, and I too share with him that the sound of the the old engine outweighs the beep of the diesel, but then our Member for Elmwood is considerably younger than us, or he hasn't got that same feeling. I would like to tell the Member for Logan that we give the Prairie Dog a $2,000 a year grant, but we have had meetings with them and it is hoped that the city, the province, the feds, and the railway would each take on the task of refinishing a car. That is what is under discussion now and I know how popular the Prairie Dog is.

I have seen it on a Sunday when I have been lucky enough to get out golfing at Breezy Bend and see it loaded with children and laughter and such and it is a great attraction. I will certainly pass on your suggestion about embracing some of the old railway stations and going out to Birds Hill because I think that they could get so many more people by doing that and it would be an attraction for Birds Hill too which is a very beautiful park. So it could be tie-in, and I will see that your suggestion is brought forth to them. MR. JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(

a) the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, after that speech, I think we are getting into a bit of a rut here. I wanted to ask the Minister if she's telling us that in the two-and-a-half years or three years since the Countess of Dufferin was removed from the entrance to the Disraeli Freeway that there has been no restoration? It sounded in her an swers that the engine is stored in the Weston Shops but that the restoration had not begun yet. MRS. PRICE: The restoration has not begun, as yet. MR.

DOERN: I was just wondering again whether this is now totally in the hands of the CPF:\ or whether the Minister maybe should speak to them and encourage them to undertake the preservation. It strikes me that no good can come from the engine simply being stored and possibly further deterioration setting in. MRS. PRICE: As I say, it is owned and stored by the CPR at present and I guess there could be a co-ordi nation of time when it will be moved. It could be re stored prior to its being moved into the new Mid-West Rail Association home, which they are working at very sincerely right now.

They want one very badly and they have all their pieces that they are wanting to display, and they are ready. All that's lacking is to get an okay on a home. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I think that the people connected with that association have the right idea. There is one problem: I don't think they have five cents in the bank and this is one of things that has always bothered me is that there's big plans, big talk, and big ideas but no money and there's no question in my mind that all the money will come from the province. I just wonder how the Minister sees the situation.

Is she pre pared to ultimately turn over several million dollars to an association, or would she better off developing the project herself as a provincial undertaking? MRS. PRICE: I don't think I am prepared. I will go further and say we haven't millions of dollars to put into a project such as this, and when it does reach its fruition it would be a tripartite type that all three levels of government would have an input into it. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, the Challoner murals, I know my colleague from Logan was interested in this item last night, and it was discussed briefly in Govern ment Services.

I suggested to the Minister of Govern ment Services that in the construction of a new court building that the murals should be incorporated in the new addition to the Law Courts, because some $40,000 was spent. The murals are probably in a box some where in a Government Services' warehouse, hopefully not deteriorating, and I just wondered whether the Minister could report on where they are and whether during the Lyon administration they have ever come out of those boxes.

I know on a couple of occasions we set up exhibitions in Winnipeg at the Art Gallery and in Brandon in the Civic Centre, and they were very well received by the public. I just wondered whether the Minister had any plans to once again display them to the public or to draw them to the attention of her col league from Government Services for permanent dis play in some government structure. MRS. PRICE: At present these murals are being stored in the Art Gallery and they are in the process of restoring them.

With regard to displaying them, they are so large that we have to find a suitable place where they can be displayed, and that is why they are - right now they are being restored anyway, they are not ready to be displayed. MR. DOERN: I am not sure what the Minister means by that, they have been restored and . . . MRS. PRICE: No, they are in the process of it. MR. DOERN: I see. I assumed that they were fully re stored and are now being stored. Is the Minister telling me they are now being worked on or that moneys are being ... MRS. PRICE: They are still being worked on.

There is some of them still being worked on and they are in the storage in the Art Gallery. MR. DOERN: Are the ones being worked on the main four, or there were some other additional ones? Which ones are being worked on? MRS. PRICE: I have no idea. I could find out if you were interested. 2678

Friday, 18 April, 1980 MR. DOERN: Yes. And who is undertaking this res toration, what person or what agency? MRS. PRICE: I will get that information for the Mem ber for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, yesterday we had some discussion on the Film Classification Board, and I missed an opportunity to draw something to the at tention of the Chairman, Mrs. Carroll, and just in short I wanted to say that one thing that has always disturbed me, as someone who comes from a German-Canadian family, is the manner in which Germans are portrayed in films and on television.

If you were to look at films that are shown in the theatres or television productions all that one sees are the stereotype Nazis. Germans are only portrayed as cruel Nazis or idiotic Nazis, one way or the other, and I think this is very detrimental to peo ple from that background and to people who live in that nation. It is surprising that the sort of films we once saw about Japanese during the war, and I remember them clearly, I don't know if members of the Committee remember them but I remember them with crystal clarity from the 1940s.

The Japanese in these films were portrayed as fanatics, they were portrayed as having large buck teeth, sinister expressions, sweaty faces, they either tortured the good guys or shot them in the back with airplanes. That is now history, that is gone, somewhere in the late 1940s those films stopped and even today on television or in the movie theatres you don't see those films any more, they are gone with the wind, and they are simply of historic propaganda value. The films that are made today on television and for the theatre still portray the Germans as they protrayed them in the 1940s.

I think this is sad in view of the fact that many people of German descent are offended by these films. Many people of German descent fought in the Second World War, I could give you a whole list of my family who were of German descent with German names who fought in Germany for the Canadian Army, and the only films one ever sees where Germans are portrayed as people are German films. In other words, if you saw one of the best contemporary films, which missed an Academy Award nomination, the something or other of Maria Braun, that film was a film I saw in Toronto; or a film called Aguirre - Wrath of God.

In other words, contemporary German films portray Ger mans as people, which is what they are, as well as members of the NA TO Alliance. The other films that are made in North America portray the Germans as Nazis, they are still living in the 1940s. I just simply draw this to the attention of the Minister and I would hope that she would draw my remarks to the attention of the Chairman of the Classification Board. What can be done? I don't know. What sort of effect people who complain can have, I don't know.

I just think that it is deplorable that a stereotype from the war years is still continued 35 to 40 years after the outbreak of a war and I, for one, find these stereotypes offensive and degrading. I don't know if the Minister has any comment, but if not, then I ask her to draw my remarks to the attention of the Chairman of the Classification Board. I know that when films today portray women in a certain light that some women's organizations get quite upset about it. I know that if films portray blacks in a certain light there will be hell to pay.

But some groups, tor whatever rea son, seem to suffer in silence and to take these insults. I don't know if this is a matter of human rights, I don't know if it is a case of public pressure. I don't know if it is a case of censorship, but it certainly is an unfor tunate thing that war-time propaganda has just con tinued indefinitely into the future. MRS. PRICE: I know that the Human Rights Com mission has been disturbed by it, and they agree with the Member for Elmwood.

It has been taken to the federal government nationally as well as the different provinces and I know that, as well as blacks and Ger mans and Indians, there's numbers of them that are cast in this unfavourable light. I would suggest that about the best think that people could do is have, say in the case of Germans, the German associations make it a point to boycott the movies and make it well known to their members. I think that if there was publicity to that effect maybe these people would quit producing films such as this. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. LLOYD G. HYDE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I want to go on record as stating that myself, personally, that I realize the position of the statement that the Honour able Member for Elmwood stated. It is a sad thing that this progressive race and prosperous race of people have been labeled and I think will continue to be labeled by the fact that they had one very aggressive individual who took the entire world into warfare. It's going to be very difficult for that country, and the rest of the world for that matter, to live that down, and it's a shame.

I have to admit it is a shame that they have been labeled as a group of aggressive people but only through the actions of one individual. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Logan, I believe, got my eye first. MR. JENKINS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have to agree that I think that it's unfortunate that we are here 35, 40 years later still fighting World War II. We seem to be fighting it on the movie screens, the tele vision screens, and I can sympathize with the people of German ethnic origin.

I agree with the Member for Portage la Prairie that it is unfortunate that one person took the German nation into what was known as the Second World War. I guess time, in itself, will only be the great healer. I imagine that for many years after the Napoleonic era people of French origin were not too well looked upon in Europe and the world at that time. It is regrettable. Periodically you will see they will have these series of documentaries going on fighting World War II, over and over again.

It will either be the Russian campaign, or the campaign all across North Africa, or in northwest Europe, the Far East, and it is something, I guess, that the only way that you can really stop it is if people just don't watch it. Then there is going to be no market for it. I agree, I think the German Canadian Association . . . I have received letters from them at various times and not too long ago we all saw on television The Hol ocaust and there was some very terrible scenes and terrible happenings. I think that they have paid their price over the years and I realize that the Minister her- 2679

Friday, 18 April, 1980 self or even this government, or even the federal gov ernment, we don't turn out that many movie films or what not in Canada. The majority of them are cranked out elsewhere. We either have spaghetti westerns; we have others that are shot elsewhere; and it is only with time ...

I remember my history teacher telling me that it is only when you can put something in its proper perspective; it is only 300 years hence that we will really put an historic happening or a current event into it's proper perspective because by that time all the people who had any bias one way or the other will have passed on and then historians will look at it in its proper per spective. If that's the case, we are still looking at the French Revolution because we haven't gone 300 years since the French Revolution or the American Revolution.

All I can say to my colleague is that I, too, deplore the continual barrage that we are faced with and I share his hopes and others that we will certainly get off this kick in a very short while. I think we have been, as I said when I started, we've been fighting the second World War for the last 40 years. I took

part in it and it is something that, as far as I'm concerned, is now in the past. You can look back at it with some nostalgia. There were some good things came out of it. One of them was that I met my wife and got married overseas. That was one of the good things, but there were many bad things. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I would just simply say, in conclusion - and I used to teach history - that in the early Forties Canadians and Americans described their gallant allies, the Russians, and fought the Ger mans and the Japanese, and it's somewhat ironic but nevertheless the fact is that today our allies are the Germans and the Japanese and the Russians are our potential enemy, so I am just saying that that's a com plete reversal and if you had told someone that in the 1940's they would have said you are out of your mind. You just didn't know what you were talking about. But Churchill said it. What did he say?

I have to ask my learned friend what he said in that regard. Oh, he said gallant allies. I thought you were referring to some thing in addition to that. So I am just saying that if it was once true that we had certain enemies and certain allies, it is now true that the reverse is true. But in the motion picture industry, and in television, it is still the old 40 years ago stuff. I want to ask the Minister a couple of comments here. I guess this is basically under the Cultural Affairs branch, Cecil W.

Semchyshyn, Director, and the grants that are given to major cultural organizations, just look ing at this superficially, it looks like the overwhelming bulk of the grants and I might be wrong here but it looks like the overwhelming bulk of the grants are given to the Centre Culture! Franco-Manitobain, some $1 00,000 per year, and then the Ukrainian Cultural and Educational Centre, some $22,000 a year for the past few years, etc. I am just wondering, and I am thinking now of Bill No. 2, Mr.

Chairman, where we are making certain changes in the Legislature in regard to translation of statutes, bills, regulations, etc. When it comes to capital funding and operating grants, it strikes me that there's a great focus on French-Canadian culture and a very small fo cus on Ukrainian, German, Polish, etc. Yet when you look at the figures, in terms of the so-called ethnic com munities, the French-Canadian population is only a tenth of what the other European heritage groups are, yet they seeni to get ten times the funding.

So, I'm just saying, in general, when you consider all the multicul tural organizations, why is it that there is such an over whelming preponderance given to the Franco Manitoban community? Is this history; is it because of federal funding; is it because of tradition, chance, why is it? MRS. PRICE: We aren't meaningfully discriminating with the Ukrainian or the German. In addition to what I told you at the beginning of our meeting this morning, the $30,000 that the Ukrainian Cultural Centre is get ting, they're getting a . . . A MEMBER: $55,000.00. MRS.

PRICE: . .. $55,000 rather; they're getting an extra $40,000 from us this year. The French Cultural Centre is owned by the province and they had an in crease of $23,000 this year. With regard to the French and the translations and such, this is something that is compulsory for us, from the decision of the Supreme Court. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, the Cultural Centre in St. Boniface, I don't recall the cost-sharing, I assume there was federal funding for construction; what about op erating grants?

If you're making a contribution of $100,000 a year, for the past three years and maybe more in the future, how much money comes from Ot tawa to fund the Centre? MRS. PRICE: They get the same amount of money; it's on a 50-50 cost sharing. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1(

a) the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you. On the question of the offensive films; the major film market is in the United States and most of these offensive films are, by and large, produced in the United States and most of them are intended to be propaganda; that's the nature of these films, either espionage, war pictures.

To try and show the Americans in a good light, as the good guys, you have films coming out that depict the German people as the bad guys and the Americans as the good guys; or the Americans as the good guys and the Jap anese as the bad guys; or the Americans as the good guys and Russians as the bad guys and on and on and on and this is always the intent.

And the thing is that it's primarily made for the American market, but these films spill over into other countries; they come into Canada and are probably dubbed in different lan guages all over the place For the same purpose, maybe we should, after all these years - but the sad part of it is that we're still producing films.

I don't think so much in Canada, but I think the Americans are still producing films that depict our native population in a bad light; they're still showing them attacking caravans with bows and arrows and burning and all kinds of things and Indians being knocked off horses and it's really disgusting. And maybe we should start looking at this and if they want to make that kind of junk, maybe that's the kind of stuff that we should be banning. Send it back; never mind the censor board; just say no-come- 2680

Friday, 18 April, 1980 in on the customs; we don't want that kind of stuff here showing people in a bad light. So this is a sad situation, but I want to get back to the one question on the libraries and ask the Min ister - in her comments yesterday she mentioned that there was an extra $500,000 for libraries and that this ap propriation was obtained by a warrant. I want to know if she could explain where this shows up in the Esti mates; on what part? Is it on the left hand side or on the right hand side or is it in the reconciliation state ment; where would they show up? MRS.

PRICE: It doesn't show up in the book here because the special warrant was done for in the last fiscal year, late in the last fiscal year; in fact, right at the end, so it isn't even in here. MR. ADAM: So that means that the figure on the left side MRS. PRICE: There's an extra $500,000.00. MR. ADAM: . . . the left hand side is not really the correct figure it should be . . . MRS. PRICE: No, the right hand side has $500,000 more. It's $1,906,000.00. MR. ADAM: It should really, in my opinion, be on the left hand side. But it should show up somewhere, oth erwise how do we know where it is?

It should show up somewhere, unless it lapsed. We were told that all unexpended fund, if they'd been expended before the end of the fiscal year, otherwise they would lapse, but it seems to me that the figure on the left hand side should be a half million dollars. MRS. PRICE: Yes, to the Member for Ste. Rose; it will show up on next year's; it was just at the last minute, after these books were published, it was too late for it, but it will show up in next year's on the left hand side. MR. ADAM: I see, it'll be added to the 1,825 and it'll show up on the left hand side. MRS.

PRICE: I would like to tell the members oppo site that I am going to write to the Human Rights Com mission in Ottawa, to Mr. Gordon Fairweather and express the concerns of people from both sides of the House with regard to the discrimination in the films. The point is well taken from the Member for Ste. Rose, that it should start at the customs at the border and I will get in touch with them and I will let you know. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I now want to make what may be my last main address here to the Min ister and that really falls under the broad topic of the greater use of local talent. I'm not as informed about the case of the Winnipeg Symphony Orchestra, but I am told that it is difficult for a local musician to make the symphony; now I just say that I have heard that, I cannot sub stantiate that.

But I can speak, I think, with some knowl edge about the use of local actors and writers in relation to the local theatre scene and I am one of those who is the strongest supporter of the Theater Centre; I have had season tickets for at least 20 to 25 years and the theater is my first love and I am therefore, most acquainted. MRS. PRICE: I thought I was. MR. DOERN: You - I was talking about an organi zation, not an individual and remember that saying, Mr.

Chairman, hell hath no fury like a woman scorned; bear that in mind when you're smoking your cigar. -(Int er jection)- I'm talking to the chairman there, who smokes those $3.00 Cuban cigars and then he puts a Jamaican cigar band around them so he doesn't frighten the First Minister. Mr.

Chairman, I'm considering now the Manitoba The atre Centre, which is the pre-eminent theatre in the province and I'm sure that the Minister was one of those who, in the early fifties, used to attend the Winnipeg Little Theatre and I remember seeing many of their productions and it was all done with local talent and the quality of acting in Manitoba was very high. In fact, when I see MTC productions - and I only go by mem ory - it strikes me that many of the lead roles could have been played by some of these people in the past and could be played by people in the present.

Never theless, if you are a Manitoba writer, or a Manitoba actor, or even a Canadian actor, or a Canadian writer, you have little opportunity to display your wares at the MTC. I'm thinking primarily of the main theatre and I'm thinking secondly, of the Warehouse. The question really is, Mr. Chairman, where can a local writer or actor obtain the experience; it's kind of a chicken and an egg situation. If a person goes for a tryout and is told they're not good enough, then what do they do; do they go to New York or Toronto for five years, acquire the experience and come home?

Is that what you have to do to make it in Manitoba, because it's very difficult for people to get the necessary ex perience if they are almost barred from appearing with the main theatre? I give you a couple of comments from the newspaper; a letter to the editor in the Tribune, March 4, 1980, by a Mr. William Horrocks, Chairman of the Manitoba Association of Playwrights.

This is a new group and they are trying to ban together to get, I guess, their plays printed and their plays produced; maybe to get some government support and to get something called work-shopping, in which, I guess, playwrights produce material and a group of actors work on the material and rehearse the material before it's in final form. Un less you have that kind of opportunity apparently you really can't be a first-rate writer. And I just quote a couple of paragraphs from what Mr. Horrocks said.

He said, for example, Last summer's highly successful playwright search conducted by the Manitoba Theatre Workshop drew a total of 72 plays. If only a handful of these people have talent, is that talent not worth developing. And he also says, The con cern of the Manitoba Association of Playwrights is that the individuals in this province who are devoting even a portion of their life's energies to the writing of plays, begin to seek out a recognition for their work and a source of encouragement to continue in it.

Now I gather that playwright search had some funding from the de partment and I commend the department there, but I want to say that I would like to see the Minister take a forceful stance in regard to this matter and I think that she should get a hold of the Board and the artistic director, who was Arif Hasnain, and the new manager 2681

Friday, 18 April, 1980 Joe Conrad and to make lt clear that there is substan tial provincial funding and that we want to see a greater use of local actors. Now I know that the Canada Coun cil, I think, has been on the backs of the Theatre Centre saying that they are not producing enough Canadian plays, and that they are not using enough Canadian actors. I mention, for example, that a couple of best actors in the business are Winnipeggers, Gordon Pin sett and Len Cariou. I happen to know Len Cariou very well, I have known him for over 20 years.

He is a big star on Broadway; he, I think, got a Tony Award - I don't know what they call them - the Broadway awards for the musical that he is in. He starred with Lauren Bacall on the stage in Applause, Applause; he starred in the motion picture.A Little Night Music with Elizabeth Taylor. He is a big name on Broadway and he got some of his experience at Rainbow Stage and at the Manitoba Theatre Centre. I am told there are other people, not as well known, but in talking to actors - I was given the names of someone named Skid Storie, David Gillies, Jay Bra zeau, Pat Hunter and Marilyn Boyle.

We all know Mar ilyn Boyle. I am simply saying that when you at the plays and you look at the parts it is kind of shocking that when you look at the programs that a lot of the small parts in these productons are by people who are flown in from New York, from Toronto, from other parts of the United States. I don't like the use of the word quotas and I don't like the concept of quotas, but, you know, if it is necessary, sometimes maybe it should be done. I am saying to the Minister that I think she should do something here. I know that if I had the responsibility I would be pretty hard on this point.

I would ask for figures and I would tell the people at the Theatre Centre and their Board that the grants by the province will be based on such and such minimum requirements, and one of the requirements will be the use of Canadian actors and some Manitoba and some Canadian plays. I am not saying that next season we are going to go there and watch six new Manitoba plays, one by Shake speare and one comedy from the States, but I would like to see one Manitoba play at the main stage or at the workshop. I don't know if there has ever been any in the last few years.

One Canadian play, my God, there is all sorts of Canadian writers who are writing for the States. There are Canadian writers in Hollywood; there are Canadian writers in New York, there are new pro ductions. I noticed the other day the MTC sent out a flyer and I think there was one Canadian play men tioned there, Billy Bishop. I mean, is there any doubt that there should be at least one play, if not a couple, and, sure Shakespeare was the greatest writer in the English language, but that was a long time ago. Do contemporary Manitoba playwrights have to compete with Shakespeare?

Are they going to be told that their play isn't as good as King Lear, therefore we can't put it on? I mention again that there is a drama department in Winnipeg at the University of Winnipeg. There are all sorts of amateur theatres trying to make it. I am told that there are annual tryouts. I was talking to one actor, he told me whenever he contacts a theatre centre and they find out he is a local actor, the voice at the end of the line, whether it is the top or the bottom person answering the phone, is sort of sigh, oh good grief, it is some local yokel on the other end of the line.

I am told that there is a annual tryout, where you are given an opportunity to come out and show, but I am also told that John Hirsch used a lot of local talent and a lot of Canadian talent; and that Len Cariou used a lot of local and Canadian talent; and that Len Cariou used to go around and watch what was being done; but that the last Director, who is leaving now, and I don't have any particular quarrel with him, other than on this par ticular point, I'm told that he, as a matter of practice, did not go and look at the amateur productions and look for talent and so on.

I am also told, and this is sort of inside information, maybe sour grapes from an actor that some of the people are used from New York because this helps the career of certain directors in maybe going to New York, so there is kind of bit of back-scratching and lobbying going on here. I'll use these guys from New York, they will tell so-and-so, he will put in a word for me, then I'll go there and I will get a job there. I simply say, Mr.

Chairman, to the Minister, that the present attitude on the part of some people in the The atre Centre, in terms of the Directors, the administra tion, the members of the Board is mistaken. I am sure these debates take place in their Board meetings. I am sure there are those people who say, hey, we have got to use more Canadian talent, and somebody else says, oh, yeh, but look, it is very interesting, but we have got to have the best, we have got to bring in these people from New York and Chicago and so on. When it comes to lead roles, I would beg to differ.

I would argue that there are local people who can take lead roles. When it comes to secondary roles and small roles, there is no question in my mind that we shouldn't go out of the province. I mean you have somebody playing a small role, what do we need some guy from New York for, who is learning his trade. There are peo ple in Manitoba who have considerable experience and considerable ability. So I am saying to the Minister, I am urging her, to investigate this situation in depth, right now, because the new season will start in the fall, and if she does some work, has one of her ace investigators go out, Mr.

Semchyshyn with a moustache and dark glasses, and acquire the information, maybe he could talk in a higher voice, otherwise he would be easily recognized, and look into this situation, and then get hold of the theatre people, I would call them in. I would ask the Minister to look at the programs for the last year, get all the programs, look at where these people are from, meet with some of the local actors, meet with some of the local playwrights, the local directors and so on, and ask them what they think of the Theatre Centre vis-a vis the use of local talent.

Then, charged up with that information, lay down the law to the Board and tell them that we want more opportunties for local actors and writers. I think that that is a long overdue measure and I would like to see the Minister really lay down the law in that regard. MRS. PRICE: I would tell the Member for Elmwood some of the things that my department does with re gard to using local talent.

We use only Manitoba talent in Music in the Park, there is 65 of them; Dancing in the Park, there is 100; Artists in Residence, there is 10; Level Courses Training, there is 30; the Manitoba The atre Workshop uses almost solely Manitoba and Cana dian talent. I would also like to tell you that a couple of weeks ago I had some representatives of the Status of Women in my office, who you know is a very powerful large group, 2682

Friday, 18 April, 1980 and they are very upset by the lack of Manitoba women artists that are given any space to exhibit in the Art Gallery. I have written to the different people who could have an interest in this, the Arts Council and the Art Gallery, etc., expressing my disappointment that they are not giving a better shake to the women artists. This letter just went out about three or four days ago, so I am hoping that there will be some results from that with regard to using Manitoba talent.

I don't think that I can specifically go to the Theatre Centre, especially when we only contribute some nine or ten percent of their grants, and tell them who they can hire. That is one of the reasons why the Manitoba Arts Council was instituted so that the politics would be kept out of that arena. The best that I could do, I would suggest, is that I could contact the Manitoba Arts Council and again express what you have been saying here, because I feel, too, that Manitobans should be used as much as possible. I think that would be about the best that I could do, is to write to the Arts Council. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, my point is that this isn't a case of using incompetence. To me it is a case of these people have the ability, these people can stand up to most of the people who are brought in, and I believe that there has been discrimination against local talent. The Minister can use whatever tools she has available. There is one that economists talk about a great deal, it is called moral-suasion.

I suppose you have the financial clout as well, but at the very minimum you have your own personality and I am sure that if this was your view strongly held, that you could certainly influence the policy of the Theatre Centre. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(a)-pass; 1.(b)(1)-pass; 1.(b)(2)-pass. Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 ,206,600 for Cultural Affairs and His torical Resources-pass. Committee rise. SUPPLY - HEAL TH MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This Committee will come to order.

I would direct the hon ourable members' attention to page 59 of the Main Estimates, Resolution No. 76, Clause 2. Operation and Support Services, Item (

b) Psychiatric Services for Chil dren: (

I) Salaries-pass. The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: I wonder if the Minister can give us just a brief explanation of this particular item? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, this is the service that provides support services to community-based mental health organizations and systems for children, as de scribed in the brief Estimates explanation line. It in cludes a staff complement in total of 17, which includes nine medical officers who are psychiatrists, seven coun sellors and an administrative secretary.

In addition, two psychiatrists are employed on a sessional fee basis, each five half days per week. The psychiatrists are based at the Child Guidance Clinic of Winnipeg, but they provide service to other areas on a monthly basis and the areas are divided among them as follows: NorMan and Thompson regions, Central re gion, Interlake, EastMan regions and the southern part of the province. Counsellors and deployed to and lo cated in NorMan, Thompson, fnterlake, Central and EastMan regions. The rural component of Psychiatric Services for Chil dren is in its fifth year of operation now, Mr.

Chairman and it employs the personnel that I have made refer ence to, the seven community mental health workers and part-time psychiatrists. The program is charged with the responsibility for directing the assessment and management of severely disturbed children. It provides consultation and liaison with protection agencies in the community and with schools and health agencies and the primary thrust is on prevention of emotional dis turbances and emotional breakdowns in families.

We've had workers involved in increased number of work shops and seminars in the community in the past year to that effect, to that purpose. The branch assessed approximately 350 new families in 1979 in addition to its load carry-over from the previous year. The urban component of the program operates from the Child Guidance Clinic in Winnipeg and the Com munity Services Building of the Children's Hospital here. Seven psychiatrists provide liaison consultation and direct service to the medical profession, the com munity and agency mental health professionals in Win nipeg.

There's a close working relationship with the Children's Hospital maintained for purposes of in patient treatment and assessment in those instances of seriously emotionally disturbed children and or their families. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honoura ble Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Chairperson, I have received calls as an MLA from constituents and other people regarding this particular service an there are a couple of points I'd like to draw to the Minister's attention in this regard.

First, sometimes there's uncertainty as to how one should and could evaluate psychiatrists and there is a lot of idle gossip floating around the medical estab lishment as to who's a good one and who's a bad one. When you get calls from parents who are very con cerned about their children, especially children suffer ing schizophrenia, saying that we have these problems; we don't know what to do; my child's been put in hos pital for electric shock therapy.

I ask the Minister how are psychiatrists selected to be part of this program; are they evaluated; who does the evaluation; and whether in fact that evaluation is updated from time to time. I believe there are some very elderly psychiatrists in this particular area, who may in fact be using some rather old fashioned techniques; that's one. Secondly, I personally as a lay person am not at all enamoured with the technique of treatment whereby electric shock therapy is used to treat schizophrenia. I think that it is a system that probably in the long run where the cure is worse than the disease.

I have dealt directly with a couple of young people who have in fact been forced to submit to electric shock therapy. I don't think it's been therapy. I think it's been quite destruc tive to these young people, and it really leaves them 2683

Friday, 18 April, 1980 in a semi-comatose stage; at least when I've dealt with them. I was really staggered; it was quite a shattering experience dealing with these people, especially since there are some alternatives like mega-vitamin therapy which is not allowed in Manitoba. It is allowed in other provinces and it strikes me that here the medical es tablishment and I think this would have to go through the MMA has decided that this is not an acceptable form of treatment, as they appear to have decided that holistic medicine is not an appropriate form of medicine as well.

So we find ourselves in a strange situation where hor ribly concerned parents wonder why they can't give their child access to a treatment or course of treatment which strikes them as being far more humane and which medical authorities, at least some medical au thorities, say is a much more preferable form of treat ment and one which produces at least better results than the electric shock therapy which really, as I said, leaves the patient often in worse stages than they were before treatment. I am wondering if the Minister has had this problem brought to his attention before and what he is doing about it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, I would have to tell the Honourable Member for Transcona that I have not had such a problem brought to my attention by any parents. My information and my understanding is that electric shock therapy is not used on children except in perhaps some exceptional cases where it is deemed by medical competence and psychiatric expertise to be the best form of treatment and therapy in that par ticular case. With respect to mega-vitamins, there is no restriction on the use of mega-vitamins.

The impression that the Honourable Member for Transcona has in this area is in error. Any psychiatrist who wants to use mega-vi tamins can use them. I would agree that there is not a widespread wholesale enthusiasm in the medical profession for mega-vitamins as a form of treatment but there is no restriction against a practitioner using them if he or she wishes to do so.

On the question of the selection of the psychiatrists, I can only reassure the honourable member that they are professionals who have graduated in their spe cialties from recognized medical schools and hospitals and institutions, who have accumulated the necessary years of study and the necessary academic qualifica tions and who have been licensed by the College of Physicians and Surgeons on the special register to practise in Manitoba. MR.

PARASIUK: I know of a specific direct experience where a young man who really had been president of his school and really shown tremendous as a young person was in fact subjected to electric shock therapy. I don't know whether in fact that has affected his IQ. He's not much older now. He's in quite desperate straights. He really has no future whatsoever. He is presently on provincial social assistance. That has been the case for about three or four years. This person has tried to have mega-vitamin therapy and has not been able to.

This person has been under the counsel or the guidance of the provincial government case-workers. They have referred this person to a particular psychi atrist. I am wondering whether in fact in the provincial stable of psychiatrists, whether there are any who in fact practise mega-vitamin therapy; whether in fact there is something that I'd call, freedom of choice, in this respect. I'd like to stop there and just see if I can get a response. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, the Minister hesi tated.

I guess when he gets the information for my col league I could ask him a few questions on that. A few years ago, this is something that I think was recognized we should step up. There was a lot of work being done with the children. The Minister announced last year and this year again the construction of a 20 or 25-bed hospital for the adolescent, which was some thing that we had announced that was in the books anyway; we were still trying very hard to get a location for it.

But at one time what we see now as the item that we are on, Psychiatric Services for Children, and also on the next page, we'll come to that later, Psychiatric Services, were combined. And there was at the time a staff of 36 and I would think with the problems that we have that if anything that total staff would be in creased, and I see by the total there is 17 under this item. The Minister covered that, and under the other item that I referred to there is a staff, according to the Minister's figure, of 16, which makes 33. So it seems that we are going down. Is that being replaced?

Will there be a staff at this new hospital, or where do we find the staff at the new hospital? Is that something new that will be covered with the Health Science Centre, or where? Where will we find this new hospital that we can discuss this new hospital for our adolescents? MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, there is no reduction in staff in the children's psychiatric, or the psychiatric field referred to by the honourable member.

There has been a re-deployment by virtue of the fact that the Winnipeg Psychiatric Institute now operates under the Health Sciences Centre, and there were 3 staff who previously showed as members of the departmental staff to whom the Member for St. Boniface refers. That service now operates under the Health Sciences Centre and they operate there, but the total complement in the field is still at the level of 36 . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJARDINS: If the Minister would turn the page, on Page 60, (

d) Psychiatric Services - provides support services to community-based mental health systems. Includes Forensic Services and staff support at the Winnipeg Psychiatric Institute. So it is there, and that is the staff that I am talking about. It is not a staff with personnel large enough for the hospital. It is just that staff and that is what I am talking about a reduction. On that item, the last one that I referred, that was Fo rensic and Eden Mental Health, and that is a staff, ac cording to the Minister's figure that he gave us, was a staff of 16. I don't necessarily want to discuss this at this time.

I want to know in the total where we had the four, where there is a reduction. So, I see, under the Item that we are dealing with now, a staff of 17, 2684

Friday, 18 April, 1980 and on Page 60, (d), another 16, for a total of 33. That is not necessarily much of a reduction over last year, but I am talking about two or three years ago, and it seems that then we had recognized, and that is where we announced that we would build a 20-bed hospital. We made the formal commitment and I think that the gentleman sitting in front of the Minister would remem ber how much pressure I put on. Practically every week I was calling in and saying this is something that has to go.

I want to know, it seems to me that if anything, and I am not criticizing certainly not at this point, I am trying to find out if there has been some change. I am sorry if I interrupted the Minister, but I tried to make it easier for him because I don't think he knew what I was talking about, he understood what I was saying. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Chairman, the fact is that there has been a phase-out of staff over to the Health Sci ences Centre in the Winnipeg Psychiatric Institute.

First there are considerable personnel on the staff of the Winnipeg Psychiatric Institute; two of them who are there are still paid by us, they wanted to remain as civil servants, they wanted to remain in the Civil Service and they are paid by us and that is why they are referred to specifically here. -(Interjection)- That's right. The other question that the Honourable Member for St. Boniface asked me was regarding the adolescent psychiatric facility, which is a recognized need in the spectrum of psychiatric services.

We have announced in the capital program, which will be undertaken this year, the establishment of an adolescent psychiatric facility of some 25 beds for chronic and acute adoles cent psychiatric patients. We have under the new Di rector of Children's Psychiatric Services, Dr.

Keith Sigmundson, in concert with my own Psychiatric Di vision personnel and other specialists in the field, a search team at work at the present time for a suitable site or location, either a location that is already in ex istence and can be renovated to accommodate this facility, or if that is not practical or possible, a site on which a new facility can be built. Those are definite departmental plans for this year. While I am on my feet, Mr.

Chairman, the Honourable Member for Transcona had asked whether in the stable of psychiatrists are there any who practice megavitamin therapy, do they have freedom of choice? I can't answer that question as to whether there are any who practice megavitamin thereapy, Mr. Chairman, I can attempt to find that out for him, but as I said earlier there is no restriction on the use of megavitamins and a psychi atrist can use them if he wishes to do so.

The particular regrettable incident that he refers to is one that I am sure we all deplore, an incident in which electric shock therapy apparently was prescribed for a patient on the basis of medical expertise, and ex pertise that I would suggest and expect probably said, no other form of treatment is proving successful and electric shock therapy is necessary. Unfortunately, I gather from what the honourable member is saying, that electric shock therapy did not work either.

There are obviously unfortunately situations in which medical therapy, of whatever kind, prescribed in the best in terest of the patient, out of the responsibility under taken by the specialist caring for that patient, fails to produce the desired results. It may have been that the patient's condition was deteriorating and destined to deteriorate to its present state regardless of what kind of therapy had been tried.

All I can say to the honour able member is that one regrets that therapy and treat ment sometimes does not succeed in correcting the problem, but I think that it would be stretching the point irresponsibly to suggest that electric shock therapy is in any way a dangerous form of treatment. There is no scientific evidence, none, no scientific evidence avail able to indicate that electric shock therapy is damag ing. It may not always be successful, but it is a proven form of treatment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR.

PARASIUK: I don't want to get into a long debate in an area that I have no great technical expertise. I do want to point out to the Minister however that it isn't as cut and dried with respect to the after-effects of electric shock therapy; that there is dispute in the medical profession regarding the use of electric shock therapy. Personally, my value system is such that I would prefer that it be used, if at all, completely as a last resort and that other options be tried. My frustra tion is that despite what the Minister says, well, me gavitamin therapy is available to schizophrenics, de facto it isn't.

I have asked the Minister is it possible through the government program, he can't answer me. I have asked other people, well could I refer someone somewhere, and I don't get any answer. People won't tell you what other people do, you can't get a good referral with respect to medical services. You don't get a good referral with respect to legal services, but it is particularly bad with respect to medical services. Who does the prescription? You get not just one, you get other calls from people who have this frustration, who feel that somehow there is some type of closed system at work there.

Obviously, by the time they phone an MLA they are incredibly frustrated. At that time you are dealing with the stage where the person is usually in hospital for some time. A very simple question that is put to me is, well, why can't my child have access to this other form of treat ment? And it's a valid question on their part. It's a valid question, when in fact, these other techniques haven't worked and where they see ... It isn't quite as bad as the laetrile debate, because it is tried in other prov inces. I think there's a Dr.

Hoffer who first pioneered this in Saskatchewan who is now living in Victoria, who is somewhat respected. People get this material re garding mega-vitamin therapy and they say, we would like to have access to it. I think it is a valid point that they put forward. I think it is something that the Minister responsible for Health should indeed look into.

I think it's something that he should investigate, not just leave it to the College of Physicians and Surgeons to, in a sense, look after, but rather that he should take some initiative in this area because, frankly, there is this tre mendous wall that exists there, not only for the patient but the parents.

It is probably the single greatest prob lem in their lives and it exists on a continuing basis with great uncertaintly and they look at this other option, which strikes me as being relatively harmless as an option to try, certainly far less harmless as an option to try than something as drastic as electric shock therapy. So I've asked the Minister on that. I find that the gov ernment, so far, I would assume, doesn't have any such program of therapy within its own Outreach Program. 2685

Friday, 18 April, 1980 The Minister has confirmed that mega-vitamin therapy supposedly is available in theory, to schizophrenics, but he hasn't confirmed that, in fact, there is any psychi atrist in Manitoba that prescribes mega-vitamin ther apy. Is that a correct understanding? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. MR. MILLER: Mr. Chairman, I remember, in 78, I be lieve it was, at that time, there was a court. One of the judges expressed concern about the lack of facilities for emotionally disturbed children.

At that time, I know the Minister indicated that they were seeking a solution, that they hoped for a fast solution on it and we're look ing, perhaps, at the 20-bed facility, which was, I think, the same 20-bed facility that was announced or dis cussed by my colleague, the Member for St. Boniface, in '76 and '77. It's now 1980 and although we're now talking about 25 beds instead of 20 beds, it's still on paper; I don't see anything concrete that's come out of the expressions of '78, '79.

I believe in '79 the Minister indicated they were sort of shifting to preventative care but that really wasn't the response to the problem because the courts have, on a number of occasions, found that adoles cents or children, who have to be taken into care, but the only care available is custodial care and that really doesn't resolve the problem and I'm sure the Minister recognizes that, they do need treatment.

So that we welcome the fact that he's again referring to a special facility, whether it's a new facility that's being built on a new site - I assume it's in the complex of the Health Science Centre - somewhere in that area; or whether it's an existing facility which will be renovated and remodelled so it will suit the kind of patients that it'll be handling.

But by and large, the concern is that nothing has really happened in an area where, I think, it's been recognized for a number of years now, there is a desperate need, that young people, children - even adults, but cer tainly children - can't be dealt with, as simply put into custodial care, when what they need is extensive and sometimes very deep treatment. I'm not going to get into the argument about the electric shock or therapy; that's my least area of expertise. My concern is that we really haven't moved in this direction, except for the announcements that keep coming forward.

The other question, the other matter that I wanted to ask and get clarified: This, I believe, was known as community psychiatric services for children last year and this is a new title of really the same appropriation, the same description, the wording is changed; so that if I'm right, the Child Guidance Clinic comes into this too. Now the Child Guidance Clinic is a facility or a service that is made available to the school boards of Winnipeg; it's an essential one as far as the preven tative aspect is concerned.

My concern is that the city of Winnipeg this year has announced that, due to budget restraints, they are going to be using the Child Guidance services less than they have in the past and it seems to me that there's got to be a greater com bining of the efforts of the province and the school divisions, particularly the city of Winnipeg area, to use the Child Guidance services to the maximum possible use and not simply be in a position where we're dealing with children who have already got to the point where they must be taken into custody and must be treated.

If, indeed, the Minister is concerned about prevention, then the prevention has to be very early on; the early identification, the early referral through the Child Guid ance Clinic, or to private psychiatrists, where people can afford them, but certainly to the Child Guidance Cli

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-4-40
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 4th hansardpdf 40.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	50c7b14b45ab6b53c8432d5e2db9c2e2fda67c4d

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