Manitoba Hansard — 3 November 1988 (Sitting 71, 34th Legislature, 1st Session)

34-1-71

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 First Session - Thirty-Fourth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 37 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XXXVII No. 71 - 1:30 p.m., THURS DAY, NOVEMBER 3, 1988. ISSN 0542- 5492 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fourth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME CONSTITUENCY ALCOCK, Reg Osborne ANGUS, John St. Norbert ASHTON, Sieve Thompson BURRELL, Parker Swan River CARR,James Fort Rouge CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights CHARLES, Gwen Selkirk CHEEMA, Gulzar Kildonan CHORNOPYSKI, Wi lliam Burrows CONNER Y, Edward Hon. Portage la Prairie COWAN,Jay Churchill CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste. Rose du Lac DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. Roblin- Russell DOER,Gary Concordia DOWNE Y, James Hon. Arthur DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. Emerson DRIEDGER, Herold, L. Niakwa DUCHARME, Gerald, Hon.

Aiel EDWARDS, Paul St. James ENNS, Harry Lakeside ERNST, Jim, Hon. Charleswood EVANS, Laurie Fort Garry EVANS, Leonard Brandon East FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo FINDLAY, Glen Hon. Virden GAUDRY, Neil St. Boniface GILLESHAMMER, Harold Minnedosa GRAY, Avis Ell ice HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park HARAPIAK, Harry The Pas HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland HELWER, Edward R. Gimli HEMPHILL, Maureen Logan KOZAK, Richard, J. Transcona LAMOUREUX, Kevin, M. lnkster MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood MANDRAKE, Ed Assiniboia MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris McCRAE, James Hon. Brandon West MINENKO , Mark Seven Oaks MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon.

River East NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. Rossmere OLESON, Charlotte Hon. Glad stone ORCHARD, Donald Hon. Pembina PANKRATZ, Helmut La Ver endrye PATTERSON, Allan Radisson PENNER, Jack, Hon. Rhineland PLOHMAN, John Dauphin PRAZNIK, Darren Lac du Bonnet ROCAN, Denis, Hon. Turtle Mountain ROCH, Gilles Springfield ROSE, Bob St. Vital STORIE, Jerry Flin Flon TAYLOR, Harold Wolseley URUSKI, Bill lnterlake WASYLYCIA-LEIS, Judy St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, November 3, 1988. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition and it conforms with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the book rules. (Ass embl y of Man itoba Ch iefs and Others fun ding request re Aboriginal Justice Inquiry.) INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to oral questions, may I direct � Honourable Members' attention to the loge on my left ' where we have Clarence Baker, the former Member for Lac du Bonnet.

On behalf of all Honourable Members, we welcome you here this afternoon. Also, we have seated in the public gal lery from the Louis Riel Collegiate, fifty-one Grade 11 students under the direction of Mr. Michel Gagne. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St. Bon iface (Mr. Gaudry). On behalf of all Honourable Mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Native Justice Inquiry Gag Orders Civil Servants Mrs. Sheron Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): My question is to the Attorney-General (Mr. McCr ae).

The federal Aboriginal Justice Inquiry is essential to the true understanding of the treatment of our Native people in Manitoba. We congratul ated this Government for picking up the initiative anno unced first by the previous Government in the establishment of such an inquiry, but we have been saddened and disheartened that having gone so far they have been unwilling to go that extra mile and provide the necessary monies to fund the research ior our need of communities.

We are pleased that the Minister announced, just a few minutes ago, that it was not Government policy that gag orders be pleased on Members of the Civil Service. Can the Minister tell this House today what sect ions of his department were given orders that they should not appear before this public inquiry? • (13 35) Hon. James McCrae (Attorney-General): Unfortunately, Mr. Speaker, the newspaper article, which the Leader of the Opposition is using for her researc h, 2738 states an allegation only and does not state anything to back up the allegation.

For instance, which supervisor gave a direction for someone not to attend the Comm ission of Inquiry. That is precisely what concerns me and precisely what I am endeavouring to find out. I am pleased to tell the Honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) that indeed, yes, there are no second class Manitobans, be they off-duty police officers, be they civil servants, be they any Manitoban. Everyo ne is entitled to appear before that Commission of Inquiry, be they civil servant or otherwise. Civil Servant's Testimony Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon). Today the First Minister issued a memorandum in which he said that every civil servant should feel perfectly free to make a presentation at the inquiry. We congratula te him for that memorandum. Will he go a step forward and actually encourage members of the Civil Service who might have valuable information to in fact bring that testimony with them to such an inquiry? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, firstly, in response to that, I want to indicate to the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) that when the Attorney General (Mr.

McCrae) spoke with me on Friday, because we had heard some rumours or suggestions that there was an inhibition on the part of some members of staff in various departments to go before the inquiry, we agreed compl etely that we wanted to do everything possible to ensure that mem bers of staff felt perfectly free and uninhibited to go before the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. We felt that in the interests of having the fullest, most open inquir y possible, that they should be encouraged to do so.

So I wrote the memo which was delivered today to all departments to that effect , to put forth the view that this Government wanted to have all of its staff feel perfectly free to go there. That was in fact a method of encouraging them to do so. If the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs.

Carstairs) believes that in some way the statement that they should feel perfectly free to go before the inquiry is not encouragement enough, I will say publicly that we will encourage any who have an opinion or an idea to share with that Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, or a concern, that they should go there and feel that they have the encouragement of this administration to put everything on the record that is pertinent to this inquiry. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, thank you to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

Thursday, November 3, 1988 Indian and Northern Affairs Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Will the First Minister also today make contact with the federal Minister of Indian and Northern Affairs, Mr. McKnight, and obtain from him a similar directive which will go out to the staff of the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Affairs federal, encouraging those public servants as well to testify and to provide this valuable evidence? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I read I believe the senior manager for Indian Affairs in this area, his statement in the paper in which he said that certainly they were encouraged to do that and cer tainly that the staff of Indian and Northern Affairs in no way would be inhibited from doing that.

Given the concern that has been raised and the allegations that have been put before the inquiry, I would certa inly be happy to write to the Minister of Indian Affairs, send a copy of my memoran dum and indicate the will and the desire of this Go vernment to have all those, whether they be federal, provincial civil servants or other public servants from other domains, should they have anything that would be of interest or importance to the inquiry, that they be encou raged to go before that inquiry. I would be happy to do that, Mr. Speaker. * (13 40) Rafferty-Aiameda Project Licence Legality Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, with a new question to the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr . Penner), the federal Govern ment's refusal to conduct an environmental assessment study, coupled with this Govern ment's refusal, has forced an environmental group into pursuing the ultima te course of action, a lawsu it. The Environmental Law Centre has confirmed in a legal opinion that the federal Government may have acted illegally in granting a licence for the Rafferty-Aiameda Dam.

Does the Minister realize that not only is he supporting a project tha t will harm Mani toba's environment, he is also supporting a project that may be illegal under our federal laws? Yet he is reported in tod ay's Free Press as saying that he will support the project regardless of the licence legali ty. Is this indeed this Minister's position? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, the reference in the newspaper

article referring to my support of the dam was incor rectly stated. I simply want to say this, that the Leader of the Opposition is raising an issue that is going to be before the courts and it is not for me to comment on it at this time, and I will simply not comment on it at this time. Licence Suspension Request Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): With a supplementary question to the same Minister, it may take weeks, if not months, for the federal Government to hear this application.

In view of this uncertainty regarding the legality of the licence, will the Minis ter immed iately demand of his federal counterparts that the licence be suspended at least until the courts have had the opportunity to review the evidence? Hon.

Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): Not only have we indicated to our federal counterparts, the federal Govern ment, that we would like the North Dakota Environmental Impact Study to be continued from Mino t on down to the Manitoba border, we have also indicated that we want to retain the protection that is provided under the Act of 1909, which refers to quality of water. We have received written assurance from the federal Government that Manitoba will receive that protection. We have also requested that the federal Government sup port our position in reneg otiating the 19 59 Apportionment Agreement.

We believe that Manitoba can accrue more regulated flows of water down the I Souris River if and when the Rafferty and the Alameda Dams are construc ted. We are negotiating on Manitoba's behalf in that regard. Mrs. Carstairs: lt is regrettable that this Minister will not take a proactive position. Manitoba's Interests Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Will he, at least, have discussions with the Attorney General (Mr . McCrae) in order that we can be interveners in this court case to ensure that Manitoba's interests for environmental protection for water quality can be represented? Hon.

Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): We are currently in negotiations with the federal Government, with North Dakota and Saskatchewan to try and put in place a water quality monitoring board.

We have agreement now from No rth Dako ta, Saskatchewan and the federal Government that a monitoring board would be put in place which would not only monitor the water on the Souris River, or would not only give us an impact study, a once-in-a-lifetime impact of what might occur , it would in fact give Manitobans the assurance that the water that is flowing down the Souris River would be of a quality-that is, tha t we are protected und er, under the 19 09 agre ement-that would be at least of that nature or better.

Manitobans would be served in a much better way that way than by a once-in- a-lifetime impact study in Manitoba. We are, after all, the downstream recipients of water from North Dakota. Mr . Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): The Minister is going to go down as the Neville Chamberlain of our water and environment in this province. * (13 45) 2739

:t Thursday, November 3, 1988 Crown Corporations Public Hearings Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Minister responsible for Crown corporations (Mr. Manness). Today the Minister announced his new Bill, which is 90 percent similar to the old Bill that he condemned profusely . I did check off the many sections that he spoke against last year that he included in this new Bill.

My question to the Minister is-and I applaud the Minister for including the three utilities in the Public Utilities Board-why did he disenfranchise the public of Manitoba for attending public meetings that were required by the law, public meetings for the people of Manitoba to talk about their Crown corporations, to talk about their Crown corporations in terms of the services it provides to them, public hearings that have already been initiated and attended at one location? Why would he take that

section out of the Act, Mr. Speaker, and not have the public hearings for the public of Manitoba dealing with Crown corporations? Hon. Clayton ManneH (Minister responsible for Crown Corporations): Mr. Speaker, let me say firstly that it is a delight to be able to table the most progressive Crown accountability legislation that exists anywhere in the nation. Let me also say that the good parts of the former Act, Accountability Act , not 90 percent within this Act but the good parts, we are happy to have included . Mr. Speaker , the Leader of the NDP (Mr.

Doer) asked the question with respect to the Service Committee . We feel, through the Public Utilities Board process, that members of the public will have great opportunity to present their case, to ask questions and, indeed, to generally put on the record their concerns . But also we are very mindful of something that Judge Kopstein said with respect to his report .

He said and I quote, "Present legislation requires senior management of the corporation to hold annual public meetings to explain the objectives of the corporation ," and I go on, he says , } "that process would be a time-consuming and often unproductive exercise ." Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, I note the Government is taking very selective advice from Judge Kopstein, which is their right to do. I notice the statement, the advice that the MPIC management gave us in terms of not wanting public hearings, was the same advice this Minister is taking.

There is no question the monopoly Crowns do not want to proceed with these public hearings . Public Utilities Board Rural Acce88 to Hearings Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question to the Minister responsible for Crown corporations is, given the fact that the Public Utilities Board , which is essential for the rate-setting process, meets for its public utilities at about a rate of over 90 percent in the City of Winnipeg, for the utilities themselves, why would he deny people outside of the City of Winnipeg, rural Manitoba, northern Manitoba, communities all across the province their opportunity to talk in a very informal way, not in the kind of quasi judicial way of the Public Utilities Board?

Why would he take away that right of the public of Manitoba to have their access to their Crown corporations? Hon. Clayton ManneH (Minister responsible for Crown Corporations): Mr. Speaker, this Government has not taken that right away. There is not a mandate in this legislation that says that Crown corporations should not go out and meet with the public . Indeed, if it is the will of the Board of the Directors of the Crowns that they wish to, by all means, and it is within their decision to do so, of course they can.

All we have removed is the mandate that they had to go out, when indeed the open process for the Public Utilities Board is provided. Mr. Doer: The Minister has taken away the responsibility in law of having public hearings, in terms of the service of those Crown corporations . Mr. Speaker, with monopoly Crown corporations, the citizens do not have the right to go across the street to change their business like a competitive situation. That is one of the weaknesses of monopolies, and that is why we changed the Act . *

(1350) My question to the Minister is, does he not recognize the fundamental difference between a quasi-judicial body of the Public Utilities Board, which is primarily interventions by lawyers, very costly interventions, I might add? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): And a dog and pony show by the management . Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) from his seat is saying the rights of people to speak out at public hearings is a dog and pony show. I think that is a disgraceful comment. Crown Corporations Public Hearings Mr.

Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): My question is to the Minister of the Crown corporations. Does he not see the difference between the Public Utilities Board and its rate setting and public hearings in terms of the rights of citizens of Manitoba, particularly the rights of people who are not lawyers, in terms of the rate-setting process in terms of their rights and services? Hon. Clayton ManneH (Minister responsible for Crown Corporations): I do not know how long you will give me to address that .

I will address that question of course in full tomorrow when I speak , hopefully tomorrow when I speak on second reading. Let me say this to the Leader of the Second Opposition (Mr. Doer). There is no Crown Accountability Act anywhere , and we have studied all the models that allow for more openness to the public, indeed greater 2740

Thursday, November 3, 1988 reporting to the public. Secondly , having sat on a quasi judicial board, I am well aware of the differences, but what this Act gu arantees, that indeed no other model, no other legislation within the land gu arantees, is open access to a Crown corporation council, not by way of a public hearing but indeed by direct access from any disaffected emplo yee, indeed from any member of society who would like to make a case to the Crown corpor ation's council. There can be no more open accountability than that. Mr.

Doer: We will see how comfortable people are going to political appointments on that Crown council, just like the appointment of the latest member on a board for the Clean Environment Commission, the cand idate, th e Tory candida te in Flin Flon and Churchill- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Rafferty-Aiameda Project Government Intervention Mr. Speaker: Does the Honour able Member have a question? Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): A final question to the Premier (Mr.

Filmon), will he not intervene in the Rafferty-Aiameda case and demand that Manitoba intervene on behalf of the people of Manitoba with the Wildlife Federation against the federal Government in terms of their potential illegal application of the federal Environment Act, something that his own Minister was condoning in his comments today in the newspaper? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The weakness of the Member's question is put forth when he says the potential illegality of the issuance of the licence.

That is what the court action is all about, to find out whether or not the federal Government acted properly in the issuance of the licence. If he wants to use that as an argument against Rafferty and Alameda, have him tell the people downstream in Manitoba on the Souris River who want to have increased flows at a time when the Souris River is almost dry. Today, indeed most of this summer, the Souris River would have been dry in Manitoba, not one ounce of water going through it, were it not for the dams that were built previously in Saskatchewan on that river.

The increase of storage, the increased regulation of flow gives an opportunity for Manitoba to obtain some significant downstream benefits. Farmers, people who live downstream in Manitoba on the Souris River want to have benefits from increased storage and regulation. That is something that potentially can increase the quality and the quantity of average and minimum flows that we need to have. All of that has to be looked at very, very seriously and should not be just the subject of a politically motivated question and debate here in the House it ��d�- . Mr.

Speaker: Order, please; ord er, please. • (1 355) 2741 Property Taxes Condominium Assessments Mr . John An gus (St. Norbert): My question is to the Minister of Urban Affairs (Mr. Ducharme) and has to do with unfair property taxa tion and the special assessment that has been established for property taxpayers that live within a co ndominium or a cooperative housing unit. This is, I believe, unfair legislation that sets up a double standard and is a travesty of justice in relation to the assessment of taxes. What it means is that all single-family homeowners are not being charged the same.

Recently City Council has passed through their committee structure and on to council a request for this provincial Government to make the adjustment and eliminate that. Classification Changes Mr . John Angus (St. Norbert): My question is, what is and when will this Government respond to eliminate 1 the special assessment classifications for owner occupied condominium and cooperative housing unit owners? Thank you. Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): I am very surprised at the Member for St. No rbert (Mr. Angus) who is now so concerned about the condominium property tax classification.

I am surprised because during the time of the Private Members' Resolution that was to be put before this House that we all had an opportunit y, we will have an opportunit y, to speak on, but the Member was not present to present his particular resolution. Mr. Speaker, I will look forward to discussing, and I am sure that the Municipal Affairs Minister (Mr. Cummings) will look forward to discussing that Bill when it comes forward. However , in reply to him, I have a meeting with the Mayor of the City of Winnipeg, a private meeting, along with the Municipal Affairs Minister, lined up for next week.

Also my departments have consulted with the Municipal Affairs Branch and I will make sure, and I have made sure, that it will be on an official delegation paper November 28. Mr . Angus: The Minister for Municipal Affairs has indicated publicly that this Government does not have any intention of doing anything about this, this year, and I appreciate the Minister's indication that he is going to speak. Legislation Mr . John Angus (St.

Norbert): Is it this Government's intention to respond this year, this Session, with legislation tha t will enact the Private Mem bers' Resolution that those Members from the other side were not int erested in speaking to earlier this month? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I just mentioned that it is a classification

Thursday, November 3, 1988 change. I will discuss it since the City Council has apparently made it quite aware that they want it to be discussed. I will discuss it and I will be discussing all the assessment issues that relate to Urban Affairs with the Mayor and official delegation on November 28. Mr. Angus: Mr. Speaker, I have ready to submit next week a petition in excess of 1 ,200 names of people who want to see action now. The question is, Mr.

Speaker, through you, why will this Government put off the expense to these people through a travesty of justice and not allow them to be classified in the same category as sing le-f amil y home owners when the actual taxation, the cost of the City of Winnipeg, is less if not substantially reduced to the single-family homeowners? Will you not react immediately this Session to bring in legislation that will help these people relieve that unfair tax burden? Mr. Ducharme: Mr.

Speaker, the Member-1 did not have the advantage that the Mem ber across the way had at City Council when he could have changed the mill rate on this particular classification. Mr. Minister, I would also be glad to get the 1, 200 names that he has so that he can send them all a letter explaining the position of this particular Member and maybe explaining- maybe he can explain to them why he did not show up to present his Condominium Property Tax Classification in Private Members ' Hour at the time. Ambulance Services Churchill, Manitoba Mrs. Gwen Ch arles (Selkirk): Mr.

Speak er, the Churchill commun ity will be without ambulance services from midnight this Friday until Tuesday morning next week. There are several reasons causing this dangerous situation, but I believe they are all a result of no Government, past or present, who has taken action on the needs of ambulance services in this province. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard).

Will he today forget his glib remarks and his dramatics and provide this House with an immediate plan of action to, firstly, assure the services in Churchill this weeken d; and to second ly, assure fully funded and fully supported ambulance services in the province? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Well, Mr. Speaker, so much for the cooperation that I had extended to the Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Charles) and I thought she was reciprocating in every problem she brought to my attention. * (1 400) Mr.

Speak er, the ambulanc e problem, as my honourable friend has brought to the attention of this House, as I brought to the attention of the House, is a difficult problem to resolve. However, I cannot, as my honourable friend requests tod ay, bring in a comprehensive plan of reso lution; nor can I, as she suggests, provide funding to date to fully fund the ambulance services throughout the province. However, Mr. Speaker, I can indicate to my honourable friend that a review of the ambulance funding is nearing com pletion in the Mani toba Health Services Commission.

From that, hopeful ly, will come a plan of action which will resolve a number of the problems before the ambulance services. As I said to my honourable friend earlier on, when she asked the ambulance funding question some two and-a-half months ago, I was not satisfied with the level of increase I was able to offer to the ambulance service of Manitoba for this year. I know it does not meet the immediate needs. However, I am hopeful that over a longer period of time we can resolve that problem in cooperation with the ambulance services throughout Manitoba. Volunteers Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, many northern and rural ambulance services are volunteers and depend upon the good will of the communit y. Ambulance drivers cannot always leave their jobs for transfers, so immedia te responses are not always possible. Mr. Speaker, does the Minister want to agree that front-line medical treatment should depend solely on the good will of the communit y, or does he have a developing policy on ambulance del ivery that he could share with the people of Manitoba? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I regret the implication of my honourable friend's question that the volu nteers that run the ambulance services are not doing a first-rate job. I believe they are. I believe that they are taking time from their jobs, from their careers, and are prov iding probably one of the finest ambulance services under stressful conditions of financing, I fully admit, but I regret the implication and the innuendo my honourable friend puts on the record that they are not prov iding good service. Mrs. Charles: Mr. Speaker, even I have read the first book of politics on how to deflect a question.

Emergency Vehicle Standards Amendments Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): Is the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) considering amending emergency vehicles -(Interjection)- I will begin again, Mr. Speaker. Is the Minister of Health considering amending the emergency vehicle standards to reflect the conditions of the North, or is he considering direct funding to assure the present standards can be realistically met? Which is it? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I regret my honourable friend read the wrong book first.

The Ambu lance Act was passed, I believe, about two or three years ago and just rece ntly regulations as flowed from that new Ambu lance Act were passed and 2742

Thursday, November 3, 1988 proc laimed. Those regulations were drawn up with substantial cooperation and input from the various ambulance services, associations and workers involved in the service del ivery of the ambula nce program. Mr. Speaker, a lot of my honourable friend's questions are part of the regulations. Rafferty-Aiameda Project Water Quantity Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Yesterday, in this House, the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Penner) provided us with a shocking demonstration of bungled answers on a number of questions.

He said, among other things, that we obviously had not read the agreement that was struck to allow the construction of the Rafferty-Aiameda Dams immediately. Obvious ly, we on this side of the House would all like to become more fully aware of some of the deals that this Minister is involved in.

He also suggested yesterday that we, on this side of the House, had not read the technical study on the Rafferty-Aiameda plan that he tabled in this House about a month ago-and today he says he wants to renegotiate the Apportionment Agreement of 1959 with the United States-but the technical study that this Minister refers to says that there is only a 50 percent chance that the reservoir behind the Rafferty Dams will be filled in 12 years. Some say it will never fill. With that being the fact, Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Minister, how does he feel that there is a chance that Manitoba will have additional water from this project when it will take at least 12 years, maybe 50 years, to fill that dam, so indeed there will be less water flowing down the Souris River because of that dam? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, the implications that the Member opposite makes are similar to the implications that they are referring to when the Federation is requesting that Manitoba intervene in the courts.

I want to say to you that the Manitoba Federation, who I met with just a month ago, just four weeks ago, has not requested that Manitoba be part and parcel of, or have not even questioned whether this project should not proceed. I cannot understand why the Members opposite, the NDP, are inferring that there will be less water or more water down the Souris River when in fact there is absolutely no water in the Souris now. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, that is a classic case of not answering the question. This Minister is the one who has said there will be more water and he wants to renegotiate greater flows.

The only way- Water Transfers Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have a question? Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Penner). Is this Minister suggesting that he would support the transfer of Missouri River water via Garrison to the Souris River to make up for the lost flows as a result of the Rafferty Dam? Is that his hidden agenda on this, or where is he going to get those additional water flows? Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr.

Speaker, it is not this Government that has agreed to flowing water out of Garrison into the Cheyenne and into the Red River. lt is the NDP, it is John Plohman, who have indicated that they are willing to flow waters out of the Garrison into the Cheyenne and into the Red River. We have never said, and we have people - (Interjection)- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh ! An Honourable Member: I think we have a northern wind blowing, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order. Order. I am not standing here for the good of my health. Mr. Penner: Mr.

Speaker, the reference made yesterday by the same Member opposite, when he referred to Garrison water flowing to the northern side of the escarpment on the Garrison, simply referred to $7 million being allo cated to further irrigation which this same NDP administration at that time agreed to. I would like to read for you into the record- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order. Mr . Plohman: Mr. Speaker, it is a classic case of not answering the question. This Minister gets up; he has not answered one question. I have a question for the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Penner), but I will withdraw my references to his not answering the questions. That is just my humble opinion. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. * (14 10} Mr . Plohman: Mr. Speaker, I am very very pleased and encouraged by the Member for Lakeside's (Mr. Enns) support for the concerns that we have on this Garrison Project. He is a true statesman on this issue, not like the Minister. Legal Opinion Request Mr.

John Plohman (Dauphin): Let me ask the Minister: in view of the fact that he made shocking revelations in this House yesterday that he is not concerned whether the Rafferty project was issued under a legal licence or not, I would ask the Minister if he has a legal opinion. Has he received a legal opinion to substantiate his contention that indeed that licence was issued legally? If he has that legal opinion, let him table that in this House toda y. Hon. Jack Penner (Minister of Natural Resources): Let me say that the reference that the Honourable 2743

I· Thursday, November 3, 1988 Member opposite has made cont inually to Garrison water flowing into the Sour is River to make up water deficient flows simply stem from this

section of the Act.

Section 5, subject to the provisions of subsection 2 of this

section , the secretary is author ized to develop irrigation in the following project service areas of Turtle Lake : 13,700 acres, McClusky Canal ; 4,000 acres , Lincoln Valley; 6,000 acres, Harvey Pumping; 2,000 acres, New Rockford; 20,935 acres .- (lnterjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Penner: And I will continue . The- Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please; order, please. Order. For the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources' sake, I would like to remind the Honourable Minister that as I have indicated to the House previously , if I ask for " order " twice, your mikes are cut off .

So it was all for naught , it was all for naught . Education Needs of Natives Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): Mr. Speaker , I will try to keep everything brief because we tend to be going over here with rhetoric. The other day in this House-my question, pardon me, Mr. Speaker, is for the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey). The other day in the House the Minister of Northern and Native Affairs said that he and his department were doing everything possible to try and make sure that the health , cultural and educational needs of the Native people were being addressed.

In view of this statement , does this Minister of Northern Affairs support the prem ise that health issues in the North have unique characteristics that cannot be equated with those south of the 53rd Parallel? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): This Government appreciates that many people have many difficulties when it comes to dealing in northern matters , particularly with health and Native people, and one of the problems , of course , we are all very familiar with , and that is the transportation factor and the fact that they have to relocate to get education .

I can assure you my colleague, the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) , the Premier (Mr. Filmon) and all our Government are very sensitive to the needs of the Native people and will be working to alleviate some of those long-term difficulties that they have been having. Health Care Needs of Natives Mr. Herold Driedger (Niakwa): I did not quite hear that the answer addressed specifically the health quest ion. So the supplementary question then , does the Minister support the premise that the provision of appropriate health services for aboriginal people does not adequately address the needs of urban Natives? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Northern and Native Affairs): I can assure you that the Government is very well aware of some of those concerns and that is why my Premier (Mr. Filmon) and our Government have put in the Throne Speech this past year an urban Native strategy which will be one of the issues and concerns that are dealt with in the coming weeks and months . Mr. Herold Driedger: I thank the Minister for those answers.

I trust then that the Government having this will, the Minister will not only, on behalf of himself and his department , advocate on behalf of Northerners and their special situation, he will also advocate, with the full weight of the Government behind him , on behalf of urban Natives and their special needs as well. In fact , he and the whole Government will advocate convincingly on behalf of Manltoba 's aboriginal people and ensure that now their collective colleague , the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard), will amend the focus of, and amend the membership of, the Health Advisory Network so that it can deal specifically with the health needs of Native people in Manitoba. Mr. Downey: As Minister responsible for Northern and Native Affairs, I can assure you that I am very much concerned that fair and equal representation has been made during our term of office and will be. As far as the specifics dealing with that question, I would ask my colleague , the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) , to deal with that specific matter . Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Orders of the Day, I would like draw Honourable Members' attention to the gallery to my left , where we have with us today the Deputy Mayor for the City of Winnipeg , Mr. Don Mitchelson . On behalf of all Honourable Members , I welcome you here this afternoon . ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Education ; and the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks (Mr. Minenko) in the Chair for the Department of Health . • (1430) 2744

Thursday, November 3, 1988 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY-EDUCA TION Mr. Chairman, Harold Gillaahammer: I would like to call this meeting to order to discuss the Estima tes of the Education Department. We are on item 4. Program Deve lopment Supp ort Services (

a) Division Administration:

(1) Salaries $200,400.00. Shall the item pass? The Member for Flin Flon- pardon me-1 believe the Honourable Minister had some information that was requested the other day. Hon. Laonard Derkach (Minister of Education): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I have some information to distribute here. These are responses to questions that were raised in Estima tes on October 31, 1988. The first is a list of schools not accredited with the department and the numbers of students attending these schools.

Attachment 2 is the number of students in home schooling; attachment 3 is a list of board and commission members; attachment 4 is the teacher retirement projections and associated costs and other related questions; attachment 5 is questions regarding training for psychologists and other clinicians in sign language and other languages. The percentage increase related to pay equity and administrative support salaries in the Administration and Certification Branch for 19 88-89, being 4.9 percent. Then there were a couple of questions on November 1. There is a list of grants paid out of (XVI) 3.(

b) in 19 87-88, which have not been paid in 1988- 1989; and the schools' role in screening children for vision, hearing and other special needs. There was one other area which was asked prior to October 31. The total cost of the High School Review is $1 69,000.00. Mr. Chairman: Then to item 4.(a)

(1) Salaries. Mr. Jarry Storie (Fiin Flon): Mr.

Chairperson, I note in the information the Minister has handed out that he did not respond to the questions that were raised at our last meeting with respect to the changes proposed by the federal Government to the Income Tax Act and how they would affect teachers' pensions in Manitoba; and the more specific questions deal ing with the concerns about those amendments that have been raised by both the Manitoba Teachers' Association and the Manitoba Organization of Nurses' Association, both of whom have copied the Minister, I believe, on their concerns and outlined them very clearly .

I am cert ainly anxious to have that information before we conclude the review of the Estimates. I expect that is coming. Mr. Derkach: Perhaps I misunderstood, but I think you will find in the package the Teachers' Retirement All owances Fund Report to members and also a letter is included there from Mr. Buhr. I think that is the letter that the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) asked for. I am not certain, but perhaps he could be more specific about the other information and we will certainly provide it. Mr.

Storie: I have to say tha t I am seriously disappointed in the response if this is intended to be the full response to all of the questions that were raised. I have a copy of the response of Mr. Buhr to the legislation and copies of the Teachers' Society letters to yourself and to the Minister of Finance federal ly. What I had asked for, given your reluctance, Mr.

Minister, to support the concerns, to throw your support behind the concerns that they had, you had indicated that your colleagues at least had some concerns and cer tainly, after reviewing their speeches with respect to those amendments, I can understand why you are reluctant to intervene, but I had asked whether you had any specific concerns about the details, specifics of their concerns. What are your objections?

What is preventing you as Minister responsible for the Teachers' Retirement Allo wance Fund Board from writing in a succinct and clear way to the federal Minister responsible for the amendments to the Income Tax Act and saying in unequivocal terms that you do not support it? I am assuming that because you have not taken that initiative, nor have any of your colleagues despite the letter that went from yourself, I gather, to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) provincial ly, I assume, since you have not done that, you must have some concerns which you could put in writing.

What I had asked, I thought repeated ly, during our last session and the one previous to that, was for some concrete explanation for your reluctance to get involved in this issue and take a stand in support of teachers and nurses and the thousands of other Manitobans who will have their pensions negatively impacted by the proposed amendments. You have given me a copy of the letter from Mr. Buhr to yourself and to Judy Balagus, the president of MTS, but you have given no explanation for your reluctance to get involved, and that is what I was specifically requesting.

In our comments, I had raised each of the issues, identified them for you with respect to the penalties to teachers retiring early if they did not have 25 years, with respect to the administrative complexity of the agreements and so forth. I want to know from this Minister and this Government why they have not taken on this challenge on behalf of teachers, specifically in writing. Mr. Derkach: I did not indicate that I would give him my responses that I had given him here in writing, and all he has to do is read Hansard and he will see my responses there.

Second ly, I have indicated to him on several occasions while we were debating that issue, which has now been passed, that we were going to be consulting with the teachers' organizations. We were going to be meeting with the four Ministers and the teachers' organizations in order that they can express their concerns and their views, and we would listen to them and respond to 2745

Thursday , November 3, 1988 those things. That is the process that we have taken. it has not changed toda y. it is the same as it was the other day and my answers are still the same, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Storie: Your answer may be still the same but it is still equally unsatisfacto ry. You have not answered the question of why you have not lent your support to these organizations. Is there no reason? Is that what the Minister is saying, because cer tainly he did not provide me with any rationale for his non- involvement in this important issue in previous discussions? I had assumed that there were some.

Perhaps I was wrong. If I am wrong, if the Minister has no reason for not lending his support, if there are no major discrepancies in the arguments put forward by the teachers and the nurses, then the Minister should say so. If the teachers and the nurses are correct in their concerns, then all he has to do is say yes, they are but I am not going to do anything. * (14 40) Certainly I had asked for specific information. In fact, I had asked the Min ister directly several times repeatedly to indicate to the comm ittee what the purpose of the Income Tax Act amendments were.

The Minister did not respond to that question. I am still anxious to kno w if this Minister understands what the implications of those amendments are or if he cares. The only reason, I can assure the Minister, that we passed any of those items was because he gave us the assurance, at least I thought he gave us the assurance in our previous discussions, that those answers would be for thcoming and he would be reviewing it and providing us with the answers. He certainly has not provided us with the answers.

He has given us back the information we already had from both the teachers and the nurses about what the concerns were, but he has not addressed the question of why he has not acted. If the Minister wants to leave that and not respond, then I suppose that is his prerogative, but it certainly is not satisfactory as far as I am concerned as a Member of this commit tee. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I would like to respon d. I guess we are talking about the same thing we had been talking about before. Certainly, although the Member for Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) does not wish to accept what I am telling him, that is just too bad. I am indicating to him that we are going to be meeting with the Teachers' Socie ty. I am not going to be making a decision right now. I have not made that decision and neither has our Government in terms of ploughing ahead or plunging ahead in support or against that particular stand that the Manitoba Teachers' Society has taken. Certainly, on behalf of their members, they have a responsibility to present their concerns to us as a Government. I have heard them.

I have listened to them very carefully and certainly respect the views that they have expressed. I have also indicated to them that I think it is important for those Ministers who have some responsibility in this matter to hear their concerns directly. That is why we have structured the meeting. 2746 Certainly, we have a long time before a decision has to be made on this because there has been a stay in terms of the way the legislation is going to proceed .

Given that we have a year, we certa inly have time to meet with the Teachers' Society and also other groups who will be affected to hear their concerns and also to be able to respond to them directly in an across the table conversat ion. Although the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) would like us to be more direct and take a specific stand so that he can then once again in his role as Opposition attack us for the position that we take, I am going to tell him that we are going to make sure that we have all the information at hand and that we give appropriate time to this matter before we make any rash decisions.

Those decisions will come, Mr. Chairman, true enough, but they are not goin g to be made without full consultation, which we promised during the election campaign that would be undertaken in all matters. Mr. Chairman: On item 4.(a), Division Administration,

(1) Salaries, shall the item pass? Mr. Storie: Mr. Chairperson , I actually did have a couple of questions before we conclude that. I want to say to the Minister that I do not want him to act precipitously cer tainly. I am a little concerned that a matter that is this clear-cut and that has been commun icated to him so succinctly should be still a matter that cannot be resolved in the Minister's own mind or amongst the minds of his colleagues.

I remind the Min ister that the first letter that he received on this issue, at least the first one that I am aware of, was May 30, 1988. it is not as if I am asking the Minister to make up his mind in a matter of minutes of a matter of days. it is more like a matter of months, half a year.

I will only indicate to the Minister that it is not only myself who is going to be dissatisfied with his answers. it is going to be thousands of teachers and nurses across the province who understand that they have just cause for concern, do not understand the motives of the federal Government in this, and apparently cannot get any answers about the motives of the provincial Government for their position. Be that as it may, we will, I am sure, have another chance to debate this before we conclude these Estimates.

When we last met, I was asking some questions about the disco ntinua tion of the gr ants for the quality education initiatives. The Minister had indicated that none of those initiatives were proceeding under the direction of anyone specifical ly, but some of them had been transferred, or part of the responsibility had been transferred to a specific division or other divisions. I am wondering if he could indicate which of those initiatives may be proceed ing under the guise of some other program ming. There were programs that were designed to support small schools, and there was a program for modelling.

Are there any of them that are still proce eding essentially in the form that they took prior to this spring? Mr. Derkach: The programs that are continuing on their own initiative, I might add, are the networks of

Thursday, November 3, 1988 schools, the linkages between schools for profes sional development. There were five networks of approximately eight schools each. The networks were supp orted equall y by the respective divisions in Manitoba education. The network themes that are still being proceeded on in their own initiatives are, No. 1, counselling in the transition from school to work, the implementation of Manitoba's language arts curric ulum, the education of childr en with special needs, education in the middle years, instructional resource programs for immersion schools. Mr.

Storie: Does any one individual have respo nsibility for these initiatives or are they spread out amongst the different divisions in the department? Mr. Derkach: There are three branches that have responsibility for these, first of all, the Bureau of Education Francais, Child Care and Development Branch, and Curriculum Dev elopment and Implementation Branch. Mr. Storie: Are there any of these that the Minister would want to comment on in terms of their success or relative acceptance on the part of divisions? Are there any of these that appear to be gaining acceptance, have had significant results? Mr.

Derkach: I guess, to paraphrase it, there has been a mixed kind of response or reaction to the programs that were carried on. Certainly, in the consultation paper on professional development, I guess the end result was that it provided a fairly effective planning framework for professional development in the future. The consultation paper on the appropriate education and student placement and parent involvement certainly does provide a framework for possible future legislation on parental involvement in the decision making in terms of where children with special needs are placed.

One other one that we think that perhaps has some significance is the workshop on management. These were sponsor ed mainly for superintendents. I guess the benefit there is that a number of superintendents enrolled in the workshops had indicated that they had gained some significant kno wledge and skills because of the workshop that was conducted. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Item 4.(a)

(1) Salaries -p ass. Item 4.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures, $67,300, shall the item pass? *

(1450) Mrs. lva Yeo (Sturgeon Creek): Oh, just a minute. Sorry, this is 4.(a), the bottom portion. I have no questions there. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr. Storie: Yes, there is one fewer positions, staff years, in Professional/Technical. What was the function of that staff year? -(Interjection)- 53? Mr. Chairman: This is 4.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures, $67,300- pass. Item 4.(

b) Cur ricu lum Development and Implementation:

(1) Salaries, $2,407,400, shall the item pass? Mrs. Yeo: lt is estimated that one child in 10 -1 have heard that ratio anyway-has a learning disability which interferes with him or her reach ing his or her potential for learning. I am wondering what is being done to ensure that these childr en are being identified as early as possible and that teachers have the proper training and materials to respond to these children. Mr.

Derkach: The Early Identification Program that is both in the Cu rriculum Development and Implementation Branch and in the Child Care and Development Br anch is all under the Child Care and Development Branch, and I am wondering whether the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) would like to postpone her question until we get into that

section when we could address that and also the special needs area. Mrs. Yeo: In the initial request of multithings that I submitted to the Minister just prior to the beginning of Esti mates, I asked for a list of the comm ittees that would be activated this year and there is a fairly substantial list. Is the Minister telling me that each one of these comm ittees -i t is attachment 5 of the Estimates Debate Request that he provided to us. Each one of these commit tees will be meeting in '88-89 to develop concerns and subsequent recommendations? Mr.

Derkach: All of these comm ittees are functional and they do meet at various times of the year and at various intervals, so I guess the short answer is yes. Mrs. Yeo: I was un der the impression tha t the Cur ricu lum Development and Imp lementation Department of the Department of Education pulled out some specific areas each year that they sort of zeroed in on. That is why I was rather surprised when I looked at this fairly substantial list. Are there any special areas of concern to be addressed this year? Mr.

Derkach: There are three areas which will be addressed specifically or will be focused in on this year: Business Education, the Gifted Source Book, and the Core German Kindergarten to Grade 4; also, Mr. Chairman, Science, Kindergarten to Grade 9. Mrs. Yeo: Two of the commit tees, perhaps it is my name that brings me to ask the question, but I was surprised to see the Chinese Curriculum Committee and the Chinese Advisor y Committees here. I am wondering how many students are actually enrolled in Chine se classes in our public school system in Manitoba. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, there are 97 students enrolled.

Mrs. Yeo: Would that be K to 12? 2747

Thursday, November 3, 1988 Mr . Derkach: That is K to 9. Mrs. Yeo: May I ask how many math consultants are there emplo yed in the department now? Mr. Derkach: If you can figure this one out, there are 1. 75 math consultants. What happens is the three quarter time is split between two individuals and we have one full-time math consultant. Would you like to know who the names are as well? Mrs. Yeo: Yes, thank you. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Peter Luba, Mr. Wayne Watt and Mr. AI Johanson. Mrs. Yeo: Mr.

Chairperson, do all consultants who are work ing in the Curriculum Deve lopment and Implementation area have a teaching certificate and teaching experience? Mr . Derkach: Mr. Chairman, all consultants in the department have a teaching certificate and teaching experience with the exception of one and that being in the multicultural area. Mrs. Yeo: I will get back to the multicultural area in a minute. I am wondering how many requests for in-service assistance, in-service support come to the department that have to be turned down each year.

I have heard that there is a great deal of assistance and I think one of the lists show the numbers of participants in various in-services that the department helps with. I am wondering if there are many and, if so, how many have to be turned down. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, out of the 13,000 teachers who are serviced in a year, we do not turn down very many. The estimated number would be six that would be turned down in a year. If we cannot find the people in-house to do the programming, then we will go out into the teaching field. * (15 00) Mrs. Yeo: I do not see the learning disabilities lis ted as a key area.

Since a learning disabled child is more likely to be identified in the classroom and dealt with within the classroom setting, and since there are, really, to my knowledge, no recognized programs for education teachers with L.D. children in Manitoba, I am wondering what in-servicing support is being provided to all teachers and in all subject areas at the various levels. Mr. Derkach: There are two ways that these in-services are handled.

First of all, Child Care and Development Branch will do the in-servicing on special needs, and they do a fairly extensive in-servicing for those teachers who are in the area of special needs. Secondly, in the core in-services in science, math or whatever subject that there are in-services on, added to the in-service or included in the in-service will be a

section on the special needs area. 2748 Mrs. Yeo: Can I ask the Minister, Mr. Chairperson, what is the major curriculum implementation conference that is going to be held this year that will be eo sponsored -and that is not including SAG which I know is planned by MTS every year-but is there another curriculum implementation conference that is being eo sponsored and presented this year? Mr. Derkach: There was an in-service held, or one being planned -or a conference.

I am sorr y, it has been held. lt was held in May and it was eo-sponsored with MAST, MTS, etc. lt was on Evaluating School Programs: "A Community Partnership" was the title. Mrs. Yeo: Evaluating School Programs and- Mr. Derkach: "A Commu nity Partnership." Mrs. Yeo: "A Community Partnership." Thank you. In prov iding consultation on vocational facilities and with career and work educational experience, are institutions other than the local institutions sometimes recommended? Mr. Derkach: Other institutions per se are not utilized.

There may be partnerships between industry and our college system, but in terms of using other vocational institutions, no. Mrs. Yeo: But there are, I think, co-op educational programs that are being offered in the schools or through the schools that involve some local job centres, career centres, etc. I am aware of a few of these programs and I am wondering if the department does anything to encourage out-of- Manitoba co-op types of things, or just within Manitoba. Mr. Derkach: No, we do not go out of province in terms of the co-op program.

All the institutions that we work with are within the province in the del ivery of the programs. Mrs. Yeo: Could the Minister tell me what stage the International Baccalau reate Program is consid ered now? Is it consid ered still under the pilot stage, or just where is it at? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, the Interna tional Baccalaureate Program has been on pilot now for some time and remains sort of in a pilot stage at this point in time.

However, once we have had time to consider the recom mendations of the High School Review, we will be in a better position to make policy changes with regard to the programs for gifted. Mrs. Yeo: We have been hammering away and trying to pull out some of the recommendations from the High School Review. I assume that it must be just around the corner because we have been told it is on hold because of translation, etc., etc., but there are many people out there who have been waiting on pins and needles since the hope of having it presented in January of '88, which I think was its target time.

I was surprised to hear today or to see in the answers to the questions that $1 69,000 was utilized by the High

Thursday, November 3, 1988 School Review Commit tee to da te. lt was my understanding that $25,000 was budge ted for it, so it is certainly well ahead of the game. I have had many questions with regard to the International Baccalaureate Program, the difficulty that some students have in acce ssing the program because their particular school division does not offer the lB. Many students do not choose to take the entire IB, but they would be happy taking one or two courses specifical ly. I would certainly hope that has been add ressed and I hope in a positive way by the commi ttee. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chairman, I guess I kind of feel the same anxie ty to have this High Schoo l Review comple ted as the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo). We are waiting for the final text to be prepared and the translation to be done. lt appears that we may have it prior to the end of this month but, once again, I have made those statements before, only to find out that they say, whoops, there has been another little glitch and we are going to have to postpone the date. So I am almost reluctant to give you a date as to when that is going to be completed.

Hopefully , we are getting very close to the time when we can table or at least have the High School Review received. Yes, we do have a problem with students being able to access a program for gifted such as the International Baccalaureate Program, especially in the rural areas where students have no opportunity of accessing a program like that. There is certainly a deficiency within the city here in terms of the numbers of students who have access to such a program. We know we have to do something, but I think it would be premature for us to embark on a program before the High School Review is considered.

Certainly, there has been a great deal of money spent on that document and time, and I think it is only fair that we give it consideration and be patient until such time as we do finally receive it. Mrs. Yeo: I cer tainly do not question the Minister when he says he is not going to take a stab at when we will see the High School Review. I cer tainly would not want him to do that. Who chaired the High School Review Comm ittee? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Ed Buller chaired the High School Review Comm ittee. Mrs. Yeo: Was that an appointment or was he elected by the Members of the review comm ittee? Mr.

Derkach: I was going to say he volunteered, but that is not the case. He was appointed to the position by the former Minister of Education. That appointment was supported, I understand, by the commit tee at the time. Mrs. Yeo: No reflection on the individual but I wonder if that-1 guess the review commit tee is over, but I would sort of question whether that was an appropriate appointment, just to have somebody from the department. lt seems to me that it would have been better to have had someone who was not as closely aligned to the Department of Education perhaps sitting as the chair. Mr.

Derkach: I am not going to argue with the Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) on this one at all because I did not have any influence on who was going to chair the comm ittee, and certainly that is something that the former Government, in their wisdom, decided was appropriate. I really would not want to comment any further on it than that. Mrs. Yeo: I can assure you that I did not have any input into the decision either. How many schools, can you tell me, are involved with the Advanced Placement Program in the province? Mr.

Derkach: There are three schools in the city that have the Advanced Placement Program operating in their schools. There are another two schools that are looking at it very carefully and ex amining the implementation of it. * (1 510) Mrs. Yeo: I was pleased to see, in my brief look at the response to questions, that there are opportunities for psychologists to become fluent in or to become even knowledgeable in the French langua ge and that there was a bilingual reading clinician.

Has there been any thought to purchasing seats at Lavalle or at the Un iversity of Mo ncton to assist individuals in implementing their French language? I have to ask this question because the MLA for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) is sitting to my left. Mr. Derkach: We would have to check the specifics of it. As the Member kno ws and as I indicated the other day, the Bursary Program had been cancelled for this year and it was not cancelled by this Government. We have comm itted ourselves to reinstituting the Bursary Program because it is 100 percent recov erable from the federal Government.

Certainly, teachers are able to access that program. But I would certainly check to see whether or not psychologists as well would be able to access that kind of Bursary Program. Certainly, if they could, we would encourage that. Mrs. Yeo: I have had a concern from a specific parent in Winnipeg 1 School Division with regard to the decrease in the contract for a teacher for the Core French or Basic French. I understand that in Rockwood School, in 1984-85, there was a contract for .83; in 1985-86, the same figure; in 1986-87, .75; in 1987-88, .66; and, in 1988-89, there is a .5 contract.

I understand also tha t the enrollment for the Core French is maintaining at the same level. Am I in the wrong department again? I think it is under Curriculum. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I think we would be able to answer the specific questions more thoroughly if we would consider that kind of question regarding the French program in the BEF section, please. Mrs. Yeo: I have several other questions with regard to French but perhaps I will save them for that particular time. 2749

Thursday, November 3, 1988 Is there any effort made by the Curricu lum Development and Implementation Department to increase the multicultural content within the curriculum? Mr. Derkach: Several things, Mr. Chairman, are being done with regard to multiculturalism. One of the more significant things, I think, is the in-servicing that is going on thr oughout the province with regard to multicultu ralism. Also, identifying materials is an imp ortant aspect in terms of how materials on multiculturalism can be integrated into the various school programs that are in place right now.

So those are some of the ways that the Multicultural Branch is doing its work. Mrs. Yeo: I know that everyone wants to achieve a harmonious multicultural and multiracial society. There are changing racial mixes in our communities and certainly in our school communities, perhaps more in some parts of the province than in others. I would question that the curriculum goes far enough in assisting to develop a sensitivity in the students. I am wondering if there is a sort of a thrust, a movement in this direction. Mr. Derkach: I can indicate, Mr.

Chairman, some of the activities that are undertaken by the department with regard to multiculturalism. First of all, there is the promotion of Multicultural Week in Manitoba schools which has been going on for the last four years. In this program, there are posters and activity packages to highlight the importance of multiculturalism in our school system. Second is the development of a Mu lticultural Resource Book of curriculum-r elated activities for teachers to use in their classrooms.

There is the establishment of a Multicultural Educational Resource Centre within the Instructional Resources Branch, which houses materials on heritage langua ges and multicultural education. There is the identification of multicultural content within existing curricula, and the provision of ongoing consultative service and workshops to school divisions throughout the province, which I mentioned in my previous answer. So these are the kinds of activities that are being undertaken by the department right now.

We know that certainly we need to encourage and do more because it is an area which we have to be very sensitive to and make sure that our students and our school system understand the importance of this concept. Mrs. Yeo: Is there any departmental regulation directing the ratio of resource teachers per pupil in the individual school divisions, or is this the place to ask that question? Mr. Derkach: In the Level 1 Special Needs area the ratio that used to be 1 to 325 has now been reduced to 1 to 160 and that may include, of course, your Special Ed teachers.

That 1 to 160 can include, I think, three teacher aides to make up the one teacher, the resource teacher and all those other kinds of resources, and that block funding is meant to be used for those kinds of purposes. Mrs. Yeo: What about a ratio for pupil to school counsellors. Mr. Derkach: At the present time, there is no ratio for school guidance counsellors. Mrs. Yeo: Just one question back, when you said that block funding was used, was supposed to be utilized to that 1 and 160, the Special Ed and the three TA's to one teacher, is that that Level 1 block funding that you are referring to? Mr.

Derkach: Yes, that is what I was referring to. Mrs. Yeo: I just had a conversation yesterday with a school trustee from Assiniboine South who told me that their budget is now well over $3 million in that Level 1 funding area, and that they will receive just over $1 million. So I think there is certa inly a need to address the differences there. I think that is an example of a school division and I think that probably if one were to question an administrator or trustee from any of the other school divisions in the province, the story would be very, very similar. Mr.

Derkach: Yes, and those kinds of things will be addressed through the Ed Finance Review and also there has been a Special Needs Task Force that is going to report to me very soon in terms of that kind of issue. But we know the whole area of Special Needs funding and the way that we approach the needs for those students who have special learning disabilities will be addressed in the overall Ed Finance Review as well. Mrs.

Yeo: For some time now Manitoba has been, I under stand, considering the dev elopment of a compr ehensive exceptional education policy which would provide substantive provincial guidelin es for school divisions, in addition, educational equity for all Manitoba school children, whether they live in rural or urban or remote northern communit ies. Can you tell us if you have done any timetabling to look at the implementation of this sort of a policy for our exceptional children, or should that come under 4.(

e) as well? *

(1520) Mr. Derkach: This again will be handled through the Education Finance Review and therefore there have not been any specific time lines set, although the department has been working on this very steadily and trying to come up with an Ed Finance approach as soon as possible. Now as the Member knows, the last Ed Finance approach, which was the Dr. Nicholl Report, took about two years to formula te and implement. Certainly, we do not want to be too hasty in moving through this whole exercise, and then not addressing perhaps some areas that need some special attention.

So because of the House sitting and because of the work that has been involved in the Legislature, we have not been able to give it the kind of attention that it 2750

Thursday , November 3, 1988 requires in the last little while. But certainly, we will be doing that and, as soon as we have all of the details in place, we want to be able to share it with the affected groups and ensure that we are together , not just because we are a Party in Government but I think together as Manitobans moving towards a funding approach for schools that is going to be accept able to all parties that are involved in the process. Mrs.

Yeo: I have some concerns about the number of illiterate graduates that come out of our high schools, not just my own concerns but I have spoken with some of the graduates themselves who state that they feel quite inadequate when they are faced with the so-called real world out there. Can you tell me if it is a policy or would it be an individual school division policy or if it is just hearsay that if a student takes a 00 course and they fail the 00 course that they are automatically granted graduation with an 0 1 certificate? Mr. Derkach: No, Mr. Chairman, I think basically that is hearsay.

We are certainly not aware of anything like that at the present time. Mrs. Yeo: So the Minister is saying that if a student were to take Math 300, not pass the final mathematics exam, that they would not be granted a high school diploma that has the marks that say "successfully com pleted Math 301." Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, certainly that is not a policy of the department. Ho wever, it is conceivable that perhaps some school division, and I am not aware of any, may make that decision but certainly that is something that is not condoned or suppor ted and is not a policy of the department. Mrs.

Yeo: Does the Minister feel that his department should have any direction to school divisions with this regard, particularly seeing that they have budg eted some $300,000 towards studying the problem of illiteracy? Mr. Derkach: The answer is, of course, yes. Mrs.

Yeo: I am certainly pleased to hear that because I would no t want-1 cou ld see wher e tha t might contribute to the problem of the illiterate graduate if they were-instead of using the example of mathematics, if I were to use the example of English 300-if they were not successful, they would just automatically be granted a high school certificate with 301. I would certainly would not agree with that particular practice. I have heard in fact that does occur in some school divisions, and perhaps without the knowledge of the department. Mr. Derkach: As I said, I am not aware of that.

But cer tainly if the Member for Sturgeon Creek is aware, I would appreciate that information coming forth and we will investigate that. I agree with the Mem ber that cer tainly that is not giving us a very credible standard in terms of the quality of students that are turned out from our high schools. If that is happening on more than just the exceptional basis, I would certainly be happy to learn about that so we could address this problem. Mrs.

Yeo: Just a couple of questions with regard to the AIDS education, I have seen, I have asked for and promptly received, from the Deputy Min ister the curriculum for the high school teaching of this condition and how our young people should deal with it, etc. Is there any AIDS education package prior to Grade 10 that is gi ven to the school divisions from the department? Mr. Derkach: Yes, there are three other grade levels where this is given and that is Grade 7, Grade 8, and Grade 9. Mrs. Yeo: I wonder if the example of that curriculum could be provided to us as well. Mr. Derkach: Yes, of course.

I think it was an understanding that you had received all of the package. If you have not, we would be most pleased to provide that for you. Mrs. Yeo: What is the department or what is this particular portion of the Department of Education doing to try and come up with new audio-visual facilities, audio-visual tapes, curriculum material, overhead projection material, etc. ? What is being done currently to come up with new innovative methods of teaching? Mr. Derkach: I met with the AIDS Advisory Committee last night. I might say that we did discuss this entire area of audio-visual aids for this whole area.

Certainly there are many materials available right now with regard to videos or films, and visual materials for this problem. Within the department, we have the Instructional Resources Branch and the Distance Education Branch who do focus a lot of attention on the development of these kinds of materials. *

(1530) Mrs. Yeo: While I was atten ding, I think it was the Canadian School Trustee Association meeting in Prince Edward Island last year, I was very fortunate to hear Dr. John-1 cannot remember his last name-g ive a presentation on the need for teaching of family life education as well as to teach our children about this new phenomenon known as AIDS. He said that his initial classroom input was at the high school level.

Gradually he moved to the lower and lower grades and now he found that the best way of presenting both family living or family life education and to teach about AIDS was to begin at the early elementary school levels, that the TV is cer tainly broadcasting a lot about the disease, that young childr en are asking questions at an early age and, if it is taught, not AIDS, but if family living is taught as a sort of a norm from the early age, the children do not sort of fantasize about it and put it out as something unusual or naughty or whatever to discuss.

Is ther e any consideration given by this department to implement earlier family living courses 2751

Thursday, November 3, 1988 earlier in the school year and to begin teaching about AIDS at the Grades 1, 2 or 3 level? Mr. Derkach: Presently, the family life education starts in Grade 5 and the AIDS program is del ivered at the Grade 7 level. Certainly, consideration for moving it into the junior grades, the earlier years, is something that we will be looking at and that is one of the topics that we did discuss last night with the Manitoba Educational Council on AIDS. Certainly no decision has been made as of this moment, but it is an area that we will be looking at.

From a personal experience, I can tell you that as a father of a young son who is in Grade 3, because of the exposure of this on television and also in discussion with other students in school, he is certa inly aware of the AIDS, at least in terms of what the word means and I can appreciate that in fact there may be a need to look very seriously at beginning exposure to this phenomenon at an earlier age. Mrs. Yeo: The instruction on AIDS as set out by the curriculum department, is it a compulsory program, or is it like the family living prog ram, one whereby the parent opts in or opts out? Mr.

Derkach: lt is expected that all schools in the province will be, or are delivering the AIDS program. Certainly the indication last spring was that in fact 100 percent of the schools were delivering the program. Mrs. Yeo: I think the Minister missed the sort of crux of the question. If they are delivering the program, is it compu lsory for all students to take it or is it just provided and the parents choose to have their child attend or choose not to have their child attend? Mr. Derkach: There is an opting-out provision for those students who do not wish to participate in that program. Mrs.

Yeo: Just I think one more question, can you tell me if the numbers of students opting for vocational education is increasing or decreasing within our province? Mr. Derkach: Although I do not have the specific numbers at the present time, there is a general increase in the number of students that are entering and taking vocat ional programs. Mrs. Yeo: I said I only had one more question, but then I found another page of notes, so if I can just keep on for just a few moments. The Voc ation Ed students, if it is on the increase, would some of these students be in the adult age or are these all the 18 and under? Mr.

Derkach: Mr. Chairman, there are both. Certainly, some of the students who are entering these programs are adults. Mrs. Yeo: Can the Minister tell me if there is any movement toward decreas ing or in fact totall y 2752 eliminating the teaching of home economics in our schools? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, I can tell you that this Min ister has no intention at the present time in eliminating the Home Economics Program in our school system. Mrs. Yeo: I am absolutely delig hted to hear that because I think there is some fear out there that this is in fact one of the thrusts of the Department of Education.

Recently there was a consumer study done on the shopping habits of individuals and they did an age group thing. I guess it is one of these things where someone with a clipboard comes and attacks you in the shopping centre and asks you all kinds of questions. They found that the greatest increase by age in grocery shoppers was in the 12- to 14-year-old age group. That was not just to run in and buy a quart of milk or two, it was a 12- to 14-year -old doing the family shopping.

Perhaps this has come about because of both mom and pop who are working and the extra respon sibility is passed on to the children and they do a terrific job, I might add. Perhaps it is because of the increase in the single-parent families, I do not know, but I think all of that sort of thing comes into play when an individual is taught the subject of home economics or human ecology or whatever you want to call it. The reason I am asking the question, and the reason I think that there has been a fear, is that there are several other junior highs or K to 9 high schools being built.

I know of three or four within the urban area. All of them have been denied by the Public Schools Finance Board, which I know is not your area but the curriculum does hinge upon this. They have been denied the building of home economic rooms. Now, how can anyone get any other than the concern tha t the department is thinking about phasing out the home economics curriculum? Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Chairman, those kinds of decisions are really made by the division that is building the school. lt has certainly not been a thrust by the department to discourage the building of those kinds of facilities and certainly not my intention to discourage the building in the hopes that this kind of program will eve ntually disappear. Certainly, as I indicated in my previous answer, I would not support that kind of a move and, to my kno wledge at the present time, there has been no specific or intended move to eliminate the home ec facilities from building programs.

As I say again, it is really the decision of the school division in terms of the resources that are allocated in building or not building those kinds of facilities. *

(1540) Mrs. Yeo: Well, perhaps then I should contact these school divisions and have them contact the Minister of Education, because the concern that was stated to me and the response that they got was that they were denied pending the results of the High School Review. That is another pending the results of the High School

Thursday, November 3, 1988 Review. We have heard lots of those. I wondered aloud why a K to 9 school, or a junior high school, would be denied the building of a home ec room pending the result of a High School Review, if the department were not looking at phasing out the home economics in the high schools and then saying there is no point in having them in the junior high. I can gu arantee the Minister that in one particular school division the individuals with whom I spoke had asked specifically and had put in their plans the request for a home economics room. Mr.

Derkach: lt is difficult for me to speak for the former Government and how they approached this situation and I would not even dare to, but I can tell the Member that certainly we have no intention of phasing out the program. Because we do not have any intentions of phasing out the program we are certainly not going to phase out the building of the facilities either, so I would be interested in knowing the specific case.

I cannot say that we are simply going to reverse a decision tha t has been made some time ago, over night, but certainly we are going to examine it and ensure that there has been due consideration given to that. Mrs. Yeo: I thank the Minister for that response.

I can assure you that after I have made a couple of contacts I will provide him with the school divisions and the schools themselves, because one individual was told that the response they got was pending the High School Review and also that the program was underutilized, when there was, I believe, 11 0 percent enrollment or student involvement in- I think it was vocat ional arts and in the other, the home economics, they were three students short of having a 100 percent occupied program, that with three more students they could not accept any more, so I would think that was pretty good.

I certainly can appreciate the Minister not wanting to speak for the previous Government. I have had enough, okay? Your turn.- (l nterjection) No, I am done. Mr. Gilles Roch (Springfield): Mr. Chairman, I just have a few questions for the Minister, through you. For childr en with their hearing impaired, The Society for Manitobans with Disabilities operates a preschool program for them. lt has been quite successful although, like everything else, it could use some improvements. The problem is that once they get into school they are at a distinct disadvantage, especially for those out in the rural areas.

Many of the families who have children in that situation would like to see an auditory verbal teaching method used here. lt is a method which has been used with great success in other provinces and states in the U.S. for that matter, and its unavailability in Manitoba has been forcing many Manitobans to seek help elsewhere. Is there anything in the department, or is the department looking at any such program here for Manitoba? Mr. Derkach: Are you talking about the ASL Program? Mr.

Roch: lt is the auditory and verbal teaching method. lt is a program which teaches childr en to develop their residual hearing by allowing lip reading and other cues to be given. lt is a very specialized program. lt is available in Ottawa. Mr.

Derkach: This, I am told, is a program that is not available in the school system at the present time, although the preschoolers who are getting the program at the present time are coming into the schools and we do not have that availability or the capability, the department, the Child Care and Development Branch is certainly considering it and is going to be dealing with that dilemma. Now, I have to inform the Member that although this is in the 4.(

e) section or the Child Care and Development sect ion, I am answering the question in hopes that if we are going to lead to more questions in this section, I would prefer that they be postponed. I would just have to say that although we have several sign language prog rams, this in turn is another one tha t the department is considering. lt is very difficult to try and coordinate all of them into one single program. Mr . Roch: I realize that. Many of the families which have such childr en right now are going to Ottawa at considerable expense, I must say.

The trouble is that Ottawa is not taking any more out-of-province children at this point because I believe the program is full up over there. As a result, some of these people have been forced to go to the Helen Beade Speech and Hearing Clinic in Easton, Pennsylvania. Just for a week there, the cost is $1 ,000, not counting travelling and hotel, room expenses and meals. I was just wondering, if the SMD were given more funding they could probably hire more teachers and speech pathologists. Is that an item which is being consid ered at this time? Mr. Derkach: This again is a preschool program.

This whole new language or concept has just been sort of developed or parents have taken note of it in the last year. These are all preschool childr en yet. So the department is looking at and is considering it because we know that we will have to deal with those childr en in the next year or so. Mr. Roch: Another possibility which might be looked at in order to be able to provide the program without and I realize there are spending constrai nts-is the, I believe the correct term of that type of teacher is an oral habilitationist. Is that the correct term?

In any case, is there a possibility of funding to bring in such a person from Ottawa to teach here? Mr. Derkach: When those children, who are now preschoolers, who because of that problem would fall under the Department of Health and not under the Department of Education, when they in fact come into the school, we know we are going to have to deal with that. That is why the department is exploring that at the present time. Certainly we do not have any childr en with that specific need at the present time. That is why it is just under review. Mr .

Roch: Within, I believe, a year or so, a year, year and a half from now it will be in the school system. 2753

Thursday, November 3, 1988 So if I understand you correctly, there are studies or it is being conside red by the department at this point. Am I correct? Mr . Derkach: That is why we are saying we are exploring the program because we know that we are going to be accept ing- those students will be in our school system in the next year. So therefore we have to address it now and explore ways of handling the situation and addressing it. The answer to your question 1 guess is, yes, we are looking at it. I cannot give you any more details than that at the present time. Mr.

Roch: Could I assume then to a certain extent that when these children do arrive at the school level that there will be something in place for them so that they can continue their education because they are obviously involved in some form of special needs? Mr. Derkach: The individual needs of those children will have to be addressed as they come into the school system because we do not know where they are going to come, whether it is going to be in rural Manitoba or here or wherever it is going to be. But certain ly, when they do come into the school system, those individual needs will be addressed. * (15 50) Mr.

Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr. Storie: I have a few questions. I allowed the Member for Sturgeon Creek some latitude and she has certainly allowed me some latitude, but I will try and wrap this part of it up very quickly because we have a lot to cover in fewer and fewer hours. The Minister has indicated to the commit tee that he is prepared to extend the 240-hour limit. I recom mend that we adopt that as a formal motion. I so move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. Fine. Thank you. Moved, seconded, carried . Mr. Derkach: Mr. Chairman, if I can respo nd, we have 96 hours, I think, left.

If the Member for Flin Flon would like to take the 96 or 95 hours, or whatever is left for Education I am quite prepared to stay here and so is my staff. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? Mr. Storie: No, Mr. Chairman, not yet. I wonder if the Min ister could first ind icate ho w many of the Profess ional/Tec hnical staff in this branch are assigned respectively to curriculum development and curriculum assessment. Is there a breakdown? Could we have a breakdown? Mr. Derkach: Out of the 35 Professional/Technical staff, there are eight who are assigned to assessment. Mr.

Chairman: I recognized the Member for Flin Flon. Mr. Storie: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. Nomina lly the split in this 27 who are responsible for curriculum development in (aX2) are responsible for some form of evaluation of curriculum assessment. I am wondering if the Minister could indicate what the format of the curriculum assessment program is like at this point. I know that there had been criticisms of the way in which the data were provided back to school divisions.

I guess the limited access of other parties, other divisions, other people interested in the educational process to the assessment made, I wonder if he could just give us a quick overview of whether there have been any changes and if there have been changes, what those changes are in terms of how the information is presented and who it is presented to. Mr. Derkach: The basic format has not changed as the Member well knows, but I guess the Science Assessment, I could say, has just been released and of course we have some concern about that because it was administered in 1986 and we are just releasing it now.

The Mathematics Assessment test will be ready in January, and the Writing Assessment, the preliminary report is out right now. In the social studies, assessment will be administered in the spring of 1989. Mr. Storie: I was not so interested in what reports had been prepared or were in preparation. I was more interested in the format of the presentation when I was involved and subsequently have heard concerns expressed about the limited value of the information that is provided .

Also, because of the nature and the concern expressed by the Teachers' Society and the divisional administration, there is limited circulation, so it limits the ability of divisions to compare. I know that comparisons can be misleading and that is one of the concerns. But I am wondering who now gets copies of divisional information with respect to assessment, who gets copies of provincial -mo re the total picture. Do copies go to teachers, teachers' associations, others with an interest in the system? Mr. Derkach: Mr . Chairman, we will work at it backwards, I guess, from the last question asked.

Presently the divisions get the assessments as they come out from the province. With regard to the limited circulation and limited value, I think we have recognized that certa inly a lot more and a lot more effective ways of assessment have to be reviewed or have to be looked into. I guess the criticism, I have heard it certainly when I was in the teaching field and certainly I have heard it when I was in Opposition, and still do, that there is limited value especially when you get a report out in 1988 of a test that was written back in 1986.

Certainly a lot of work needs to be done to make sure that our assessments of these various programs are effective and that the reporting is done on a more timely basis to ensure that there is some value, in fact, of the assessment that is cond ucted . Present ly, the division gets the assessment report and from there, I guess, if divisions want to share the information amongst each other, that is entirely up to them. Mr. Storie: Perhaps the Minister could then provide myself and my colleague from Sturgeon Creek with copies of the Writing Assessment if that is ready.

Any other assessments-! do not know if the Member for 2754

Thursday, November 3, 1988 Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) is in terested, but I would be interested in receiving copies of the assessments that have been completed, if that is possible. The Minister indicated that the division gets the report. Does anyone other than the superintendent in a specific division have access to, or is the distribution of the assessment solely at the discretion of the division or the board or the superintendent? Mr. Derkach: If the schools participate in the assessment, if all the students write the test, then the school division only gets those results.

If there is the 10 percent sample that write the test, what happens is that those are scored and all school divisions will get the total provincial picture of the sample. Now if a school division wants to share its results with another school division, cert ainly that is up to them. I might add that the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) wanted the assessment results. We will give him the Science Assessment result which has been released and also the preliminary report on the Writing Assessment. Mr. Storie: So the system is still the same then.

Where a division gets involved only by virtue of allowing 10 percent of its students to be sampled, whether it is Grade 6 writing or whatever, all they receive in return for that is the provincial sample assessment? Mr. Derkach: Right. Mr. Storie: I guess the more important question, and I know that this has been going on and did go on through the early 1980s till the present time. I believe the Assessment Program started in its current form somewhere in 1978-79 -'76, 1 am told.

I am wondering whether we have any evidence that the divisions are in tact using this assessment material to re-evaluate either their curriculum or their approach to curricu lum. I guess it is important for us to know whether this is having any impact down the road. Mr. Derkach: I guess our only indication to date is that each year we see an increase in the number of school divisions that use the assessment test. Whether there are any significant improvements in terms of the pro gramming, I really cannot tell you that. Mr. Storie: Am I going to get a further answer? I was just waiting. Mr.

Chairperson, that may not be the best kind of indicator in the world. Obviously, the service is free to school divisions. lt is the services provided. lt does not cost them anymore to have 10 percent samples than 100 percent. I guess if one is going to go on anecdotal they pay for the scoring, that is right-e vidence, I would suggest that many divisions are not using the results in any consistent way. I am not arguing that there should not be curriculum assessment. I am simply wondering whether it is time to revamp the way that we assess the curriculum to know what goals we want to achieve by this assessment.

I had always felt, and I think there are some people who support the idea, that one of the areas we need to assess more directly is the area of basic skills rather than curric ulum. lt seems to me the curriculum is only a tool to achieve the development of skills and we have, in this province, no formal way, no universal way, and perhaps we do not need a universal way, but there is no formal way of testing the basic skills that students develop as a result of going through this curriculum process. The Minister 's eyes are raising.

I am not recom mending or sugges ting- never have, never will that we proceed with something like provincial exams. That is comple tely counterproductive. What I am wondering is whether there is anyone out there asking tor a method of assessing the skills of our students other than the traditional evaluation that goes on between students and teachers and schools and students. Is there any thought or any interest, I guess, on the part of the Minister in looking at that question more directly? * (16 00) Mr .

Derkach: I guess this has been a concern of mine for some time, as the Member well knows when he was Minister of Education. Yes, it is time. I think it was time a couple of years ago to take a look at whether or not the assessment tests are really meeting the needs of what we really want to measure. I think across Canada, Education Ministers have also pointed to the fact that we do not have very effective indicators in terms of the types of standards that we have in our school systems as com pared to each other across the country and even as compared to other countries in the world.

We know that students in Manitoba and across Canada are not only going to be competing against one another when they get into the job market, but also will be competing against the Japans and the Europes. Therefore, I think it is very important that we have some sort of assessment that is effective in terms of giving us some idea of how our students are doing with regard to the skills that are being taught to them in schools.

I think that when you do an assessment, whether it is a standardized test or whether it is some other form, that you are not measuring the ability of an individual teacher in a classroom or you are not measuring the way that teachers are approaching education. I think that we all recognize that we have very profe ssional people on staff in the province and probably some of the finest quality people who are delivering programs to students.

But the answer is yes, we have to undertake a very careful look at how effective the present assessment system is and we have to embark on ways in which we can better address this whole area of evaluating programs and evaluating how well our students are doing in the kinds of standards that we have. A part of this of course is going to be addressed hopefully through the High School Review which will give us some indication as to how people out in the various parts of Manitoba feel about this concept, about 2755

Thursday, November 3, 1988 standardizing the kinds of programs we are offering, about ensuring that we in fact have a quality of education that is offered in northern Manitoba that is similar or is equal to the quality of education that is being offered to in the urban centres and in the suburban areas. Mr. Storie: I hope the Minister is understanding what I am saying because I am not talking about standardized programs at all. I think there is a fundamental difference between a student developing a skill, whether it is a reading comprehension skill or a math skill or a thinking skill.

You can develop those skills around any material. The material is really irrelevant and I hear the Minister talking about standardizing programs and I think that would be comple tely backwards. I have said on many occasions that the curriculum that we have developed now which is much more broadly based than it was 20 years ago, is progress. Trying to standardize it is the antithesis of progress; it is going backwards. The kno wledge that we have available to us is expanding, and I do not want to have this confused with provincial exams or standardized programs.

I want the Minister to address the question of whether he has considered using the department and the profess ional staff to develop new, to use old measures of basic skills to refine them, use them. The Canadian Test of Basic Skills is an example of a test that has been Canadianized, but has the Minister or his staff done any work on addressing the question of how we assess skill levels across the educational system? Mr.

Derkach: No one is suggesting that we narrow the programming range that we have in Manitoba, but cer tainly what I was referring to was the fact that the skills that students are able to achieve in rural Manitoba and northern parts of Manitoba would be equal in terms of the quality, to the skills that perhaps are taught and achieved in the areas where we have lots of resources such as the City of Winnipeg, or the City of Brandon, or some of the suburban areas. So let there be no mistake about what the intent was here.

Yes, it has been time long ago-1 would say that, when the Me mber for Flin Flon was Mini ster of Education, he should have addressed this certain ly. However, that did not happen and we are not going to deal in the past. I think we have to take a look at the future and the things that have to be done toda y and this is an area that has to be addressed. But it is going to take some time to develop an appropriate approach so we do not do it in a haphazard way and so that we ensure that in fact it is meaningful process and that the results would come from it are also meaningful.

So, I would have to agree with the Member for Flin Flon in that it is time to broach this topic and to ensure that something is done. Mr. Storie: Could the Minister indicate then whether he is aware of how many divisions currently are utilizing standardized tests or divisionally developed tests to assess basic skills on a universal basis? How many divisions are using some form of standardized basic skills test? Mr. Derkach: No, there is no way for us to know. We do not have that information in a specific sense. I might indicate also that I had discussed this very topic with Dr.

Stapleton from the University of Manitoba today and the need for developing some sort of system whereby we would be able to have some idea of how students in various parts of the province are doing in terms of the skills that they achieve at the Grade 12 level. So certainly there are many people in the education field who are anxious to see some thing happen in this area as well. Mr. Storie: I just hearken back to a comment the Minister made about not taking any initiative.

I certa inly did raise this question with staff and the people that are sitting beside him can confirm that it was an interest of mine, and I recog nize that you cannot move quick ly. We have an established practice and we have a very good system and you do not abandon it ove rnight including the assessment system. lt was developed with a specific rationale in mind and it has met a purpose. The question is whether we can expand it, change the direction somewhat.

I think from personal experience, and perhaps the Minister has had similar experience that the basic skills test, even though they were not always Canadianized and were not normed in Canada, were probably the most useful tool for myself as an individual teacher, in terms of developing an educational plan for a student. There are, I think, too few opportunities for teachers to learn how to use those and for school divisions to develop any sort of holistic program. I would certainly be asking the Minister whether he intends now to follow up and to determine how divisions are going about assessing individual skills.

What we are doing, what the department is doing-and it may be appropriate for the department to do this-is to assess and evaluate the curricu lum. Perhaps we have a role in assessing the skill levels of individual students as well, at some point, for providing support to divisions who want to do that. Will the Minister take on that task over the next little while before the next Estima tes appear before us? (The Acting Chairman, Mr. Edward Helwer, in the Chair .) Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, the easy answer would be, yes.

But I think what we have to do is ensure that we research all the possible kinds of approaches in terms of evaluating and in terms of administering the appropriate types of assessments througho ut the province. I think the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) did hear in our election campaign that we were interested in the standards of education in the province and the quality of education in the province, and certainly we are going to be addressing this. As I indicated before and as he alluded to that he was interested in it and had raised the question.

However, it is a matter of carefully progressing and not doing somet hing in a haphazard way. So, yes, we are interested in it. I have already raised questions about it. I can tell you that we will be 2756

Thursday, November 3, 1988 proceed ing with input, of course, from the education commun ity. I think there is going to be that issue raised also when we examine the High School Review. So certainly, hopeful ly, that will be addressed in that issue as well. *

(1610) Mr. Storie: Two questions, No. 1, in terms of the High School Review, one of the paradoxes of the utilization of basic skills test is that elementary schools use them. The assumption has been that the basic skills will have been developed and consequently high schools, I think almos t without excep tion, do not use-in fact, I am not even sure if there are commercial basic skills tests developed for high school. lt is an area which has been vacated by the developers of standardized tests, and basic skills tests.

The High School Review may be able to address the question of what skills do we require for the 21st Century, but they are not going to address the question of whether the Department of Education is prepared to assess those skills. That is going to be the task of the Minister. I am hoping the Minister will take that task on because it seems to me it is something that has been overlooked. I can take some blame for not addressing it and other Ministers of Education can too, but the times they are a changing and we should be changing with them.

A more specific question on the same kind of a topic, I want it to be clear that when the Minister says that during the election we were wandering around talking about standards and the quality of education. I want to ask the Minister specifically whether standards include any intention on the part of himself or the Government to play with, flirt with, provincial exams? Mr. Derkach: Mr. Acting Chairman, we are not going to flirt with anything. Our approach to education is far more serious than to be flirting with anything. We are going to be addressing the issue of standards and of quality of education .

Up until this point in time nothing more has been developed. Certainly we are going to be taking a look at the tests that are already in place, taking a look at the objectives of those tests and how they are adhered to, and how school divisions react to them. After we receive a lot of this information, we will be able to embark on some specific programs. When the Member uses words like "flirt" and "play," that is not our intention in the department. Maybe that was his approach. lt is certainly not ours. Mr.

Storie: I can only go by comments that I have heard previously and I know that in some quarters the words "provincial exams" and "standards" have political sex appeal. I was trying to get from the Minister whether he has any interest or any objectives in mind when it comes to the implementation of any kind of provincial exam system. If he chooses to not answer that question and not be forthright in answering that question, that is his prerogative. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Chairman, as I indicated just a moment ago, I have not given consideration to a national or provincial exam per se, but we have not addressed the whole area of standards of education and of quality of education. I indicated before that we would be doing that. We are going to be taking a look at all areas. We are not going to exclude anything.

Certainly if a form of test that can be administered through the province to give us some information, whether it is an assessment test or basis skills test or whatever test it may be, we think is important to do and we think will have some importance in terms of determining the level of quality of our programming. I am not going to ignore that kind of an approach and, as I indicated before, I am not going to play with it. lt is far too serious a subject to be toying and playing around with. Mr . Storie: The answer to the extent that it was an answer has been duly noted and I am sure is on the record.

The question, now moving away from assessments, the question of curriculum develop ment-! wonder whether the Minister can indicate whether there have been any new developments in this branch with respect to Native curricula, Native studies, the development of the Cree language, Salteaux language programs. I know the Minister is going to say well, that is in the Native Studies Branch, but there are, I understand, some supports in the Curriculum Branch, and I am wondering whether there is any activity on those fronts. If the Minister would rather wait we can wait. My apologies to staff. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Chairman, if the Member does not mind, if we could wait until we get into the Native Ed Branch, we will cer tainly address the question. Mr . Storie: The Member for Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) was refe rencing the IB Program, the International Baccalaureate Program. lt sounded like she was following the tone of her Leader about the importance of this program.

I am wondering whether the Minister or his department or, in fact, any division have come forward with a proposal to develop an enriched high school program, an enriched world studies program, as opposed to absorbing or utilizing what is in some circles seen as a more esoteric program, which the IB Program is, or elitist, perhaps even a different word. I am wondering whether we have the capacity or whether we are dev eloping the capacity to improve the curricu lum, provide enrichment in some areas to challenge gifted high school students. Mr . Derkach: Mr.

Acting Chairman, I think this will be addr essed or, hopeful ly, it is a topic that will be addressed in the High School Review.- (Interjection)- Mr. Storie: I am sorry I started that. Mr. Derkach: Yes, I kno w. You should be very sorry about that. lt is one of those other tasks that you started and did not complete, and we are still struggling with it. As soon as we get the High School Review in, I think it would be a little bit premature to be embarking on 2757

Thursday , November 3, 1988 a lot of programs until such time that we have seriously taken a look at the review and its recom mendations. I thin k then we can take some positive steps in developing some very worthwhile programs for the gifted and for special needs students and all the students out there. Mr. Storie: I recognize now that the delay in the High School Review Report has served this Minister well because he has managed to lump everything into waiting until the report comes out.

I am wondering whether the Minister could indicate whether he is familiar with the IB Program, whether he has had a chance to meet with groups like the Association for Bright Children, others who are interested in gifted education. I know that there was a com mittee established to discuss special needs students, and they included both gifted and handi capped students. I am wondering whether they have produc ed a report, whether there are any recommendations forthcoming to deal with that question of enriched high school progr amming. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Chairman, I have met with the Association for Bright Childr en certainly , and discussed their concerns and received their brief. I am interested in meeting with all groups. Certainly, within seven months of a mandate or six months of a mandate, you cannot expect a department to all of a sudden pick itself up and embark on a whole series of new initiatives. However, we do have plans. I tiave to tell you, we do have some plans in terms of the way that we have to address some of these very important concerns that are out there.

One of them is the special needs area that has to be addressed in the way that we support special needs students. Another is the gifted children. In terms of the demand that is out there, we know that we have to do somet hing soon. Exactly what shape that program to address the needs of gifted childr en will take, I am not at liberty to say yet, but we will be addressing that over the course of the next few months. As we progress through it, certainly we will be keeping the people of Manitoba informed as to the progress we are making. • (16 20) Mr. Storie: lt is gratifying to know the Minister has plans.

I wish he would be so generous as to share some of those, perhaps even -(Interjection)- Mr. Derkach: I am far more generous than you were. Mr. Storie: -the limits of his plans. The Minister is indicating he has some plans specifically with respect to en riched high school program ming, or is he supportive of the concept? I know you said you had plans, but I wonder if the Minister is suppor tive of the concept of Manitoba-developed enriched programming for high school curricu lum. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Acting Chairman, I have just indicated to the Member that we do have some intentions of embarking on programs for not only the special needs and regular-type student but also for the gifted. I might say tha t I am far more generou s with information than the Member was when he was Minister. I know he would like to get all the information he used to when he was Minister. Being in Opposition, you know you are not capable or we will not share our plans until they are developed.

Certainly, when they are developed and when we have them in a form where we are prepared to share them, we will do that as quickly as possible. Certainly, this is not a forum for us to debate our specific plans in terms of how we develop programs for the variety of students that we have in this province. But I can indicate that our intention is to embark on a program of development of programs for gifted, for special needs, and also for the regular student. (The Acting Chairman, Mr. Darren Praznik, in the Chair.) Mr. Storie: I recog nize that the Minister may answer however he wishes.

I do not wish to push the Minister into making an answer that he is ill-prepared for. I suppose we could go through each of the Estima te lines and ask, is there $10 set aside for some planning here or planning there in a particular one. I will take the Minister's general answers that he has plans, and will leave it at that. Moving on to another curriculum area, the Minister indicated that he met with the Manitoba Education Council on AIDS. He indicated that he would provide some material to my colleague from Sturgeon Creek (Mrs. Yeo) on the AIDS curricu lum.

I would like also to have that information if that is possible. I am wondering whether there have been any changes in the curriculum in the last several months, and whether the Minister is considering or has been asked to make the AIDS information available universally, whether the Minister is prepared to remove the optional status of the Family Life Program generally? Mr. Derkach: I could say to the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Storie) that in our meeting with the Manitoba Education Council on AIDS, we discussed a variety of things. I think I indicated some of the issues we have discussed .

No, I have no intentions of removing the optional

section of the Family Life Program within the health curriculum. I do not think that we are prepared to do that at this time. Second ly, there have not been any changes to the curriculum on AIDS right now. Certainly, as new information comes down, we will include that in the progr amming. I also might indicate that the Department of Health has been preparing a new pamphlet, which will be distributed widely across the province. This pamphlet is not going to have in it any significantly different informa tion in tha t there is not that much new information at the present time to include.

Certainly, current information will be included in that pamphlet. As soon as it is available, I would be happy to share it with the Member opposite and certainly will be looking forward to distributing it. 2758

Thursday, November 3, 1988 Some of the areas, I might add, that the Manitoba Education Council on AIDS will be looking at in the next little while to keep the Members informed are the post-secondary guidelines. Certainly, the curriculum itself and the implementation of-we are going to be asking for some feed back from school divisions, feedback that was asked for when the curriculum was implemented and has not come back yet.

Although we have had two or three divisions respond, we are going to be sending a letter out to ask for further feedback from school divisions as to what their thoughts are about the AIDS curricul um, so that we in fact are on track in doing what is right for the students in the province. Mr. Storie: The Minister mentioned the subcommit tee from the Manitoba Education Council on AIDS, the post secondary group. I am wondering whether the Minister could indicate whether they have prepared pamphlets that are being distributed or have been distributed at our post-secondary institutions? Mr. Derkach: No, Mr.

Acting Chairperson. They have not prepared any of the

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-1-71
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 1st hansardpdf 71.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	512217a651cbb1e33bdfbe8147a1e6471f43b458

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