British Columbia Hansard — Monday, April 28, 2003 (37th Parliament, 4th Session) (H0428pm-09) (H0428pm 09)

H0428pm-09

British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)

4th Session, 37th Parliament OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY (HANSARD) Monday, April 28, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Volume 14, Number 9 THE HONOURABLE CLAUDE RICHMOND, SPEAKER ISSN 0709-1281

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871) LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Honourable Iona Campagnolo 4TH SESSION, 37TH PARLIAMENT SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Claude Richmond EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council................................................................................. .........................Hon. Gordon Campbell Minister of State for Intergovernmental Relations.............................................................................. ..................... Hon.

Greg Halsey-Brandt Deputy Premier and Minister of Education ....................................................................................... ..................................Hon. Christy Clark Minister of Advanced Education................................................................................................. ...........................................Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries.................................................................................... ..............................Hon.

John van Dongen Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations.............................................................. .................... Hon. Geoff Plant Minister of Children and Family Development.................................................................................... ..............................Hon. Gordon Hogg Minister of State for Early Childhood Development.............................................................................. .................................Hon.

Linda Reid Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services......................................................................... .................. Hon. George Abbott Minister of State for Community Charter........................................................................................ .................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Minister of State for Women's Equality ......................................................................................... .................................... Hon.

Lynn Stephens Minister of Competition, Science and Enterprise ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Minister of State for Deregulation ............................................................................................. ............................................ Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Energy and Mines................................................................................................... ....................................... Hon.

Richard Neufeld Minister of Finance ............................................................................................................ ....................................................... Hon. Gary Collins Minister of Forests ............................................................................................................ .................................................. Hon. Michael de Jong Minister of Health Planning .................................................................................................... ............................................ Hon.

Sindi Hawkins Minister of Health Services.................................................................................................... ................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Minister of State for Mental Health ............................................................................................ ...................................Hon. Gulzar S. Cheema Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care ............................................................................. Hon.

Katherine Whittred Minister of Human Resources.................................................................................................... ............................................Hon. Murray Coell Minister of Management Services................................................................................................ .........................................Hon. Sandy Santori Minister of Provincial Revenue................................................................................................. ................................................Hon.

Bill Barisoff Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ................................................................................ ..................................Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Skills Development and Labour...................................................................................... .............................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Minister of Sustainable Resource Management.................................................................................... ..................................Hon.

Stan Hagen Minister of Transportation..................................................................................................... .................................................... Hon. Judith Reid Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection..................................................................................... ....................................Hon. Joyce Murray LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Deputy Speaker................................................................................................................. ..............................................................

John Weisbeck Leader of the Opposition ....................................................................................................... ...........................................................Joy MacPhail Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ........................................................................................... .............................................. Harold Long Clerk of the Legislative Assembly .............................................................................................. .........................................E.

George MacMinn Clerk Assistant ................................................................................................................ ................................................................... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk .................................................................................................. ........................................................ Ian D. Izard Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees........................................................................................ ............................................Craig H.

James Clerk Assistant/Committee Clerk................................................................................................ ............................................ Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms ............................................................................................................... .........................................................A.A. Humphreys Director, Hansard Services ..................................................................................................... ........................................

Anthony Dambrauskas Legislative Librarian.......................................................................................................... ............................................................. Joan A. Barton Legislative Comptroller ........................................................................................................ .................................................................Peter Bray Published by British Columbia Hansard Services, and printed under the authority of the Speaker by the Queen's Printer, Victoria.

Rates: single issue, $2.85; per calendar year, mailed daily, $298. GST extra. Agent: Crown Publications Inc., 521 Fort St., Victoria, B.C. V8W 1E7. Telephone: (250) 386-4636. Fax: 386-0221. www.leg.bc.ca/hansard In addition to printed transcripts, Hansard Services publishes transcripts on the Internet and broadcasts Chamber debates on television.

Party Standings: Liberal 75; New Democratic 2; Independent Liberal 2. ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS Abbott, Hon. George (L) ....................................................................... Shuswap Anderson, Val J. (L) .............................................................Vancouver-Langara Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)............................................. Penticton–Okanagan Valley Bell, Pat (L).........................................................................Prince George North Belsey, Bill (L).................................................................................

North Coast Bennett, Bill (L) ........................................................................... East Kootenay Bhullar, Tony (Ind. L) ................................................................. Surrey-Newton Bloy, Harry (L).................................................................................. Burquitlam Bond, Hon. Shirley (L).........................................Prince George–Mount Robson Bray, Jeff (L)......................................................................Victoria–Beacon H ill Brenzinger, Elayne (L) ...............................................................

Surrey-Whalley Brice, Susan (L) ............................................................................Saanich South Bruce, Hon. Graham P. (L)................................................ Cowichan-Ladysmith Campbell, Hon. Gordon (L)............................................. Vancouver–Point Grey Cheema, Hon. Gulzar S. (L) ..........................................Surrey–Panorama Ridge Chong, Ida (L)................................................................ Oak Bay–Gordon Head Christensen, Tom (L) .............................................................

Okanagan-Vernon Chutter, Dave (L) ........................................................................... Yale-L illooet Clark, Hon. Christy (L) ..................................................Port Moody–Westwood Cobb, Walt (L) ............................................................................. Cariboo South Coell, Hon. Murray (L) ........................................ Saanich North and the Islands Coleman, Hon. Rich (L) .............................................. Fort Langley–Aldergrove Collins, Hon.

Gary (L).........................................................Vancouver-Fairview de Jong, Hon. Michael (L)....................................... Abbotsford–Mount Lehman Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L) .......................................................... Surrey-Cloverdale Hagen, Hon. Stan (L) ................................................................... Comox Valley Halsey-Brandt, Hon. Greg (L) ..................................................Richmond Centre Hamilton, Arnie (L)............................................................Esquimalt-Metchosin Hansen, Hon.

Colin (L) .....................................................Vancouver-Quilchena Harris, Roger (L)......................................................................................Skeena Hawes, Randy (L) ............................................................ Maple Ridge–Mission Hawkins, Hon. Sindi (L).......................................................... Kelowna-Mission Hayer, Dave S. (L) ................................................................... Surrey-Tynehead Hogg, Hon. Gordon (L) ........................................................

Surrey–White Rock Hunter, Mike (L) ...................................................................................Nanaimo Jarvis, Daniel (L)...................................................... North Vancouver–Seymour Johnston, Ken (L)............................................................ Vancouver-Fraserview Kerr, Brian J. (L).............................................................. Malahat–Juan de Fuca Krueger, Kevin (L).................................................

Kamloops–North Thompson Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...............................Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Lee, Richard T. (L).......................................................................Burnaby North Lekstrom, Blair (L)................................................................. Peace River South Les, John (L) .......................................................................... Ch illiwack-Sumas Locke, Brenda (L) ...........................................................

Surrey–Green Timbers Long, Harold (L) ...................................................Powell River–Sunshine Coast MacKay, Dennis (L)....................................................... Bulkley Valley–Stikine McMahon, Wendy (L).............................................Columbia River–Revelstoke MacPhail, Joy (NDP) ..........................................................

Vancouver-Hastings Manhas, Karn (L) .............................................Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Masi, Reni (L) ...................................................................................Delta North Mayencourt, Lorne (L) ..........................................................Vancouver-Burrard Murray, Hon. Joyce (L) ........................................................... New Westminster Nebbeling, Hon. Ted (L) .......................................... West Vancouver–Garibaldi Nettleton, Paul (Ind. L)..................................................Prince George–Omineca Neufeld, Hon.

Richard (L)...................................................... Peace River North Nijjar, Rob (L)...................................................................Vancouver-Kingsway Nuraney, John (L) ...............................................................Burnaby-W illingdon Orr, Sheila (L) ...........................................................................Victoria-Hillside Penner, Barry (L)....................................................................... Ch illiwack-Kent Plant, Hon. Geoff (L) ......................................................... Richmond-Steveston Reid, Hon.

Judith (L)............................................................Nanaimo-Parksv ille Reid, Hon. Linda (L) ................................................................... Richmond East Richmond, Hon. Claude (L) ................................................................ Kamloops Roddick, Valerie (L)..........................................................................Delta South Sahota, Patty (L).....................................................................Burnaby-Edmonds Santori, Hon. Sandy (L)..............................................West Kootenay–Boundary Stephens, Hon.

Lynn (L) ........................................................................ Langley Stewart, Ken (L)...................................................... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Stewart, Richard (L) ...................................................... Coquitlam-Maillardville Suffredine, Blair F. (L) ................................................................Nelson-Creston Sultan, Ralph (L)....................................................... West Vancouver–Capilano Thorpe, Hon.

Rick (L) ..........................................................Okanagan-Westside Trumper, Gillian (L)................................................................Alberni-Qualicum van Dongen, Hon. John (L) ................................................Abbotsford-Clayburn Visser, Rod (L).................................................................................North Island Weisbeck, John (L).........................................................Kelowna–Lake Country Whittred, Hon.

Katherine (L) ...................................North Vancouver–Lonsdale Wilson, John (L)........................................................................... Cariboo North Wong, Patrick (L)............................................................Vancouver-Kensington LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Abbotsford-Clayburn....................................................... Hon. John van Dongen Abbotsford–Mount Lehman ..............................................Hon.

Michael de Jong Alberni-Qualicum.......................................................................G illian Trumper Bulkley Valley–Stikine ..............................................................Dennis MacKay Burnaby North..............................................................................Richard T. Lee Burnaby-Edmonds............................................................................Patty Sahota Burnaby-Willingdon......................................................................

John Nuraney Burquitlam ........................................................................................ Harry Bloy Cariboo North ..................................................................................John Wilson Cariboo South .................................................................................... Walt Cobb Chilliwack-Kent ............................................................................. Barry Penner Chilliwack-Sumas .................................................................................

John Les Columbia River–Revelstoke....................................................Wendy McMahon Comox Valley .......................................................................... Hon. Stan Hagen Coquitlam-Maillardville .............................................................Richard Stewart Cowichan-Ladysmith .......................................................Hon. Graham P. Bruce Delta North.......................................................................................... Reni Masi Delta South................................................................................

Valerie Roddick East Kootenay .................................................................................. Bill Bennett Esquimalt-Metchosin...................................................................Arnie Hamilton Fort Langley–Aldergrove ..................................................... Hon. Rich Coleman Kamloops ....................................................................... Hon. Claude Richmond Kamloops–North Thompson ........................................................Kevin Krueger Kelowna–Lake Country...............................................................

John Weisbeck Kelowna-Mission ................................................................ Hon. Sindi Hawkins Langley ............................................................................... Hon. Lynn Stephens Malahat–Juan de Fuca .....................................................................Brian J. Kerr Maple Ridge–Mission ................................................................... Randy Hawes Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows .............................................................Ken Stewart Nanaimo..........................................................................................

Mike Hunter Nanaimo-Parksville ...................................................................Hon. Judith Reid Nelson-Creston.......................................................................Blair F. Suffredine New Westminster ..................................................................Hon. Joyce Murray North Coast ........................................................................................Bill Belsey North Island........................................................................................Rod Visser North Vancouver–Lonsdale.......................................... Hon.

Katherine Wh ittred North Vancouver–Seymour .............................................................Daniel Jarvis Oak Bay–Gordon Head .......................................................................Ida Chong Okanagan-Vernon .................................................................... Tom Christensen Okanagan-Westside.................................................................Hon. Rick Thorpe Peace River North .............................................................Hon. Richard Neufeld Peace River South .......................................................................

Blair Lekstrom Penticton–Okanagan Valley ....................................................Hon. Bill Barisoff Port Coquitlam–Burke Mountain.................................................... Karn Manhas Port Moody–Westwood......................................................... Hon. Christy Clark Powell River–Sunshine Coast.......................................................... Harold Long Prince George North................................................................................Pat Bell Prince George–Mount Robson................................................Hon.

Shirley Bond Prince George–Omineca................................................................Paul Nettleton Richmond Centre......................................................... Hon. Greg Halsey-Brandt Richmond East .......................................................................... Hon. Linda Reid Richmond-Steveston ................................................................ Hon. Geoff Plant Saanich North and the Islands ............................................... Hon. Murray Coell Saanich South...................................................................................

Susan Brice Shuswap .............................................................................. Hon. George Abbott Skeena.............................................................................................Roger Harris Surrey-Cloverdale ................................................................. Hon. Kevin Falcon Surrey–Green Timbers .................................................................. Brenda Locke Surrey-Newton ............................................................................... Tony Bhullar Surrey–Panorama Ridge................................................. Hon.

Gulzar S. Cheema Surrey-Tynehead .......................................................................... Dave S. Hayer Surrey-Whalley ...................................................................... Elayne Brenzinger Surrey–White Rock ...............................................................Hon. Gordon Hogg Vancouver-Burrard................................................................. Lorne Mayencourt Vancouver-Fairview............................................................... Hon.

Gary Co llins Vancouver-Fraserview ...................................................................Ken Johnston Vancouver-Hastings .......................................................................Joy MacPhail Vancouver-Kensington...................................................................Patrick Wong Vancouver-Kingsway..........................................................................Rob Nijjar Vancouver-Langara....................................................................Val J.

Anderson Vancouver–Mount Pleasant............................................Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Vancouver–Point Grey ................................................... Hon. Gordon Campbell Vancouver-Quilchena............................................................ Hon. Colin Hansen Victoria–Beacon Hill.............................................................................Jeff Bray Victoria-Hillside.................................................................................. Sheila Orr West Kootenay–Boundary.................................................... Hon.

Sandy Santori West Vancouver–Capilano ..............................................................Ralph Sultan West Vancouver–Garibaldi ................................................. Hon. Ted Nebbeling Yale-Lillooet .................................................................................. Dave Chutter

CONTENTS Monday, April 28, 2003 Afternoon Sitting Routine Proceedings Page Introductions by Members....................................................................................................... ............................................... 6251 Tributes....................................................................................................................... ............................................................... 6251 Rosemary Brown P. Sahota L. Mayencourt Jim Spilsbury H. Long Rosemary Brown J. MacPhail Hon. L.

Stephens Introduction and First Reading of Bills ........................................................................................ ......................................... 6253 Business Number Act (Bill 36) Hon. R. Thorpe Statements (Standing Order 25B).............................................................................................................................. .............. 6253 Family Services building for Vancouver-Burrard area L. Mayencourt 2009 World Police and Fire Games P. Sahota Clinton Annual Ball W.

Cobb Oral Questions................................................................................................................. ......................................................... 6254 Sale of B.C. Rail assets J. MacPhail Hon. J. Reid Police services in Surrey B. Locke Hon. R. Coleman Impact of SARS on tourism industry I. Chong Hon. R. Thorpe Fair Pharmacare registration S. Brice Hon. C. Hansen J. MacPhail Development of offshore oil and gas industry B. Belsey Hon. R.

Neufeld Tabling Documents .............................................................................................................. .................................................... 6257 Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform: Terms of Reference and Duties of the Chair Ministerial Statements ......................................................................................................... .................................................... 6257 Day of mourning for workplace injuries and deaths Hon. G. Bruce J.

MacPhail Tabling Documents .............................................................................................................. .................................................... 6258 Auditor general report No. 10, 2002-03, Adopting Best Practices in Government Financial Statements — 2001-2002

Committee of Supply ............................................................................................................ ................................................... 6258 Estimates: Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management (continued) Hon. S. Hagen J. MacPhail Estimates: Ministry of Advanced Education Hon. S. Bond J. MacPhail

6251 MONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 The House met at 2:05 p.m. Introductions by Members P. Wong: Joining us in the House today, represent- ing several ridings in the lower mainland, we have a group of 30 members and their spouses from the Wongs' Benevolent Association seniors group, led by the committee chair, Kenny Wong, and former presi- dent, King Yeung Wong. They are as follows: Mr. Foon Hong Wong, Yuen Kuen Wong, Don Wong, Wai Lan Wong, Ken S.F.

Wong, Wing Yue Wong, Kai Sui Wong, Sing Wong, Kam Wong, Chung Chiu Wong, Ying Lan Wong, Henry Wong, Ena Wong, Siew Hong Wong, Looi Laan Wong, So Ching Wong, Stanley Wong, Gin Hong Wong, Sang Lok Wong, Lee May Wong, Kerry Wong, Stanley Chow, May Wong, May Yu, May Lan Wong, Kim Sek Wong, Sue Lun Wong and Mae Wong. Will the House please give them the warmest welcome. Hon. S. Hawkins: I have two introductions to make today. In the gallery with me are members of the Brit- ish Columbia Association of Optometrists. I would ask the House to please help me welcome Dr. John Gentles, Dr. Mary Lou Riederer, Dr.

Paul Geneau, Dr. Joan Hansen, Dr. Paul Neumann, Dr. Michael Kellam and Cheryl Williams, who is the chief executive officer. My second introduction is to three very special people. They are constituents and dear friends of mine from Kelowna. Cindy Lombard and her two children, Jamie and Brianna Guy, are visiting here to see how the Legislature works. Jamie is an avid hockey player. He's a goalie in the regular season on his team for the Kelowna Ice Hawks.

T h i s s p r i n g h e ' s p l a y e d o n a n a l l - s t a r t e a m a n d j u s t finished a tournament where he got a best player award, so I'm pretty proud of him. Brianna is in grade 5. She's an artist. She's a gymnast. I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, those are two of the best little campaigners you've ever seen. I'm hoping they'll continue to learn about our political process and work on campaigns with me. I'd ask the House to make all three of them very, very welcome. H.

Bloy: It gives me great honour today to intro- duce some more great campaigners that have worked very hard in the last few years for the B.C. Liberal Party. It's the second-largest club at Simon Fraser Uni- versity. It's the British Columbia Young Liberals. We have their president here today. They represent the people of Simon Fraser University. They supported the tuition increases, because they know it created more classes and more professors. I would like to introduce the students. We have the president, Allan Spence from Coquitlam-Maillardville.

We have Woosang Lee from Burquitlam, Jessica Fuchs from Vancouver-Fairview, Brock Stephenson from Burnaby-Willingdon, Miles Lunn from Burnaby North, Dave Harrison from Burquitlam, Angus Ou from Burquitlam, Jessica Marola from Coquitlam- Maillardville, Chantel Elloway from Port Moody– Westwood, Steven Wheelhouse from Surrey–Green Timbers and Jared Zanette from Port Moody– Westwood. I would like to thank them for all their hard work. My colleague from Surrey–Green Timbers will be introducing the balance of the members. B.

Locke: I, too, would like to recognize and wel- come some Young Liberals that help me a great deal in my riding: Brandon Langhjelm, Adam Picotte and Esther Park. I notice that Steve Wheelhouse has already been introduced, but I'll introduce him again. As well, I would like to also introduce my daugh- ter, Ashley Locke, and her friend Jesse Hangengartner, who are in the chamber. Would the House make them welcome. V. Anderson: I'd ask the House to join me in wel- coming Charles Hung, who is here today.

He is a con- stituent in my riding, and he has a guest with him, Ali Oguz Dirioz from Turkey, who is interested in con- struction and energy development. R. Stewart: I'd like to introduce an accomplished businessperson in my riding and a member of the Ro- tary Club in Coquitlam: Valerie Gilbert. Visiting us from the Rotary Club of Dee Why, New South Wales, Australia, is Mr. Tony Webber. Would the House make them welcome. [1410] D. Hayer: It gives me great pleasure to introduce 28 students from grade 5 visiting from Pacific Academy School in my riding of Surrey-Tynehead. Joining them is their teacher Mr.

David Buzza, as well as several parent volunteers who have taken time out of their busy schedules to accompany these students. Would the House please make them very welcome. Hon. G. Abbott: In the gallery today is Kevin Pen- stock of Vancouver, a recent friend of mine and an old friend of my ministerial assistant, Cameron Thorn. Would the House please make him welcome. G. Trumper: In the gallery today is someone who manages to keep me organized most of the time: my constituency assistant, Maryann Washington. Accom- panying her today is her husband, who is celebrating his birthday.

Would you please make them welcome. Tributes ROSEMARY BROWN P. Sahota: It's with sadness that I note the passing of Rosemary Brown, a former member of this Legisla- ture and a former MLA for the riding of Burnaby-

6252 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 Edmonds. I'd ask the House to send condolences to Ms. Brown's family. L. Mayencourt: I also want to join with the other member in noting the passing of Rosemary Brown. She also served this Legislature as the member for Vancouver- Burrard, and I know she was a great contributor to this chamber but also in her fight for social justice for women, for gays and lesbians, and for other visible minorities within our society. I also pass my condo- lences to her family. JIM SPILSBURY H. Long: I also rise today to note the passing of a legendary British Columbian.

Jim Spilsbury was one of the defining personalities of west coast life. He was raised on Savary Island and made the inlets, bays and harbours of the coast his back yard. The radios he built opened communication lifelines all along the coast of British Columbia. The airline he founded, Queen Char- lotte Airlines, became Canada's third-largest airline in 1949. Many British Columbians are familiar with tales of his pioneering life on the coast, thanks to his books Spilsbury's Coast and The Accidental Airline . They are two of the most successful books published in British Columbia.

He was many things: an inventor, an entrepreneur, a pioneer, a painter and an author. B.C. is poorer for his passing. I offer my condolences, and I ask this House to offer theirs to his family and friends. He will be sorely missed. ROSEMARY BROWN J. MacPhail: Thank you to the colleagues who have already acknowledged Rosemary Brown. I, too, rise today to mourn the passing of someone who is truly one of B.C.'s most respected former MLAs. Rosemary Brown was a passionate defender of human rights and women's rights, and she passed away at the very early age of 72 this weekend.

I know that all of our thoughts go out to her family and her loved ones. She is survived by her husband Bill, three children and seven grandchildren. I know I stand not only with everyone in this House but with all British Columbians in mourning this great loss to the province of B.C. Rosemary Brown was an intelligent, articulate spokesperson for progressive causes for all of her life. She was the first black woman elected to a Canadian legislature. She was an officer of the Order of Canada and a member of the Order of British Columbia.

After completing her studies at McGill University and the University of British Columbia, Rosemary became the founding member of the Vancouver Status of Women Council and a founding member of the Vancouver Cri- sis Centre. Rosemary was elected first to the B.C. Legis- lature, as the member from Vancouver-Burrard pointed out, for that riding in 1972, and she stayed in this Legis- lature until 1986, so she sat with many of us present in this chamber during that time. In between, she ran for the leadership of the federal NDP. Her impact carried far beyond the work that she did in this House.

She affected the lives of thousands of people. After politics, Rosemary served as the CEO of Match International, which was a development agency to promote women's issues on a global basis. She also served as chief commissioner of the Ontario Human Rights Commission. [1415] Rosemary had a great impact on me personally and on my decision to get involved in public life. She really did ensure, everywhere she went, that the voices of women and people of colour would be represented. I think it's safe to say that Rosemary Brown led the way for women who wanted to play a role in public service.

Rosemary Brown created a committee to eliminate sexism in textbooks and educational curricula. She in- troduced legislation that would prohibit discrimination on the basis of sex or marital status. Through her ef- forts, there was a marked increase in the number of women represented on boards, commissions and direc- torates. I think that if Rosemary were in the House today, she would be eloquently standing up for the many v o i c e s o f s o c i e t y t h a t n e v e r m a k e i t i n t o t h i s L e g i s l a - ture.

Her legacy will live on amongst thousands of women and people of colour who were inspired and have become involved in politics through her role as an activist, an educator and a role model. M a n y o f u s w h o w o r k e d w i t h R o s e m a r y f o r t h r e e decades remember this quote that she made at a func- tion that many of us attended. She said: "Fighting for equality is like washing the dishes. You've got to keep on it every single day." May we all give our condo- lences to her family. Hon. L.

Stephens: I share the sentiments of all the members of this House when, over the weekend, we were saddened to learn that a former member, Dr. Rosemary Brown, had passed away. She was a pas- sionate woman who came to Canada from Jamaica in the 1950s. She served our province as an MLA from 1972 to 1986 with distinction. She was a social worker, a university professor, founder of the Vancouver Status of Women Council, and served as chief commissioner of the Ontario Human Rights Commission, as the Leader of the Opposition has stated. She was also the founding member of the Vancouver Crisis Centre.

She was a tireless worker in the struggle for the rights of women, men and children everywhere. She's been honoured around the world for her life's work, and she became an inspiration in the field of social ac- tivism. She was an officer of the Order of Canada and a recipient of the Order of British Columbia. Rosemary was a wonderful person, a role model and a great British Columbian. She will be most re- membered for her vigilance, commitment, courage and vision. She will be sadly missed by everyone who knew her, but her passion for justice, fairness and

MONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6253 equality will live on in all those who were touched by her energy and determination to raise awareness and to open dialogue, debate and discussion for a better society for all. I join with all members of this House, Mr. Speaker, and ask that you express our sincerest condolences on behalf of all the members of this House. Mr. Speaker: So ordered. Thank you. Introduction and First Reading of Bills BUSINESS NUMBER ACT H o n . R . T h o r p e p r e s e n t e d a m e s s a g e f r o m H e r Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Busi- ness Number Act.

Hon. R. Thorpe: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now. Motion approved. Hon. R. Thorpe: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to intro- duce Bill 36, the Business Number Act. The Business Number Act will establish the adoption of a business number as a common business identifier for British Columbia businesses. The act also establishes the in- formation system, the B.C. Hub, to be developed by the single business number initiative to support business number processes.

The federal business number is currently used as a common business identifier in selected programs in the provinces of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Ontario. Manitoba is currently developing a common business identifier project using the federal business number.

This legislation does not contain significant policy change, but it does enable the implementation of the single business number initiative, which is consistent with our government's new-era directive of reducing business processes and the regulatory burden for Brit- ish Columbia businesses and follows up on our gov- ernment commitment to establish e-government to business services. Without this legislation, businesses would continue to have to use various numbers when accessing differ- ent levels of government and services. The business registration would continue to be complicated and time-consuming.

It is important to note that several provincial and national business organizations strongly support the single business number initiative. [1420] Bill 36 is consistent with our government's com- mitment to assist British Columbia businesses to suc- ceed. The Business Number Act will simplify the rela- tionship between business and government and will assist in restoring British Columbia as a world leader in e-government. I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 36 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Statements (Standing Order 25

B) FAMILY SERVICES BUILDING FOR VANCOUVER-BURRARD AREA L. Mayencourt: I ' v e s p o k e n i n t h i s H o u s e o n a number of occasions about the wonderfully diverse community I live in. We have a lot of seniors. We have the gay and lesbian community. We have new urban singles. We also have one other group, and that's the street-entrenched youth. Though they may not have an address in my constituency, I do consider them to be my constituents, and I am committed to serving them.

It gives me great pleasure to rise in this House to- day to speak in favour of the construction of a 9,000- square-foot building in the downtown south that will house the Family Services of Greater Vancouver's pro- grams. The building will be set to house the existing street youth services, Street Youth Job Action and Dusk to Dawn shelter programs and will provide transitional housing for youth in this neighbourhood. There's massive redevelopment which is occurring in the downtown south of Vancouver, and it's causing some resources for homeless youth in the area to be- come strained.

The construction of a centralized and integrated provider of youth services will help prevent these youngsters from being exploited into the sex trade or the drug world. The construction of such a building will make an integrated service delivery model for street-involved youth much more feasible, and it will allow for an op- erating

schedule seven days a week. Programs in this building will offer outreach, counselling, support, ad- vocacy, drop-in services, drug and alcohol counselling, health services, life skills, hygiene, employment train- ing and recreational services. It is anticipated that if we get this off the ground, we could have this project completed by September of 2004 with operations com- mencing shortly thereafter. I'm proud of the work that Family Services is doing in this neighbourhood, and I fully support their efforts to move forward in the construction of this building and amalgamate their services for youth.

I know it will be a welcome addition in the downtown south and to all citizens of Vancouver who will enjoy the benefits their services create. 2009 WORLD POLICE AND FIRE GAMES P. Sahota: I have some great news. On Saturday the 2009 World Police and Fire Games were awarded to

6254 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 British Columbia. This is the second-largest event out- side of the Summer Olympics. As many in this House know, for the past number of months my colleagues from Burnaby and I have b e e n w o r k i n g h a r d o n t h i s b i d . L a s t O c t o b e r t h e f o u r Burnaby MLAs endorsed the 2009 bid. Last month the entire Legislature endorsed a motion to support the games. Last week the selection committee was in the lower mainland and inspecting the sites, and they were impressed with what they saw.

There were many people that made this happen, so I want to congratulate the entire bid committee and the many organizations who worked together to create this successful bid for our province, including the city of Burnaby, the city of Vancouver, Tourism Vancouver, our law enforcement agencies and, of course, our 2010 Winter Olympics bid committee. I would also like to congratulate Burnaby firefighters — in particular, Jeff Clark and Miles Ritchie — for their tireless work and unwavering dedication to bringing the games to British Columbia. I also want to thank some of the people in our own government.

I want to thank the Minister of Commu- nity, Aboriginal and Women's Services and his staff for their hard work and commitment to this bid. I also want to thank the Solicitor General and the Minister of Forests, who took out time last week to address the selection committee. Lastly, of course, I want to thank the Premier, who addressed the entire federation board of directors on Saturday. Together we had a successful bid, and we are ready to do this for 2009. I know this is a testament of this government's commitment to our protective services and to sport.

This will help build a future for British Columbia that is strong, healthy and prosperous. CLINTON ANNUAL BALL W. Cobb: My comments today are in the form of an invitation. On Friday, May 23, 2003, the 136th Clinton Annual Ball will take place in the Clinton Memorial Hall. This is the longest-running annual event of its kind in Canada. It has continued through two world wars, the Depression, population decline and diminish- ing resources.

From the numerous volunteers that have worked on the ball to the support by way of donations and attendance, the community has preserved an en- chanting piece of early pioneer spirit. [1425] Held in 1868, the first ball was the idea of Mrs. Smith, co-owner of the old Clinton Hotel, the biggest and best hotel in the Cariboo Gold Rush Trail. By invi- tation, people came on horse-drawn equipment from as far away as San Francisco and Chicago. The annual soirée lasted for days as guests, dressed in elegant, important fashion, dined and danced in beautifully decorated halls.

Dignitaries attended and honoured the contribution of a dedicated community. The Clinton community wish to extend their wel- come and invitation to you to join us in making this year's event a spectacular reflection of the Clinton An- nual Ball that began so many years ago. I encourage everyone, even if they may not be able to attend, to purchase a ticket as a donation to assist the community of Clinton in having this event declared a heritage event, to pursue some of the great history we have in the Cariboo. I have tickets if you so wish. [Applause.] Mr.

Speaker: There's a group over here that's ex- cited about going. Oral Questions SALE OF B.C. RAIL ASSETS J. MacPhail: While this House was in recess, the Minister of Transportation admitted to an audience in Prince George that the government was breaking its promise not to sell B.C. Rail. She would only say that the government would try to live by the spirit of that promise. Before the Easter break the Minister of Transportation stood up in the House and contradicted the Premier. She said that B.C. Rail's tracks were not for sale and that those tracks would remain publicly owned.

Does the Minister of Transportation stand by that promise, or can we expect it to be sacrificed as part of their government's plan to abandon northern com- munities? Hon. J. Reid: We have been clear. We have been consistent. I've spoken with people in Prince George. There is going to be continued public ownership of the rail track and the right-of-way, and we are proceeding in looking at a partnership to strengthen the rail ser- vices. This is at the request of both the shippers and the communities who rely on those industries.

We're working with the communities on this pro- posal, and we believe that this is going to be a good, sound business plan to move B.C. Rail into the future. Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Opposition has a supplementary question. J. MacPhail: All this government has done is make it as clear as mud about what the plans for B.C. Rail are. It was only a few weeks ago that the Premier went on provincewide TV. He said that B.C. Rail's tracks will not be sold.

But as recently as two weeks ago, in a letter to first nations in the north, the Premier would only promise that he would "not transfer the ownership of the rail bed to a third party." Can the minister explain why, if she stands behind her commitment to not sell B.C. Rail's tracks, the Premier will now only say that the rail bed beneath the tracks will remain in public hands? Hon. J. Reid: They're both going to remain in pub- lic hands, and, again, we've been consistent. Mr. Speaker: Leader of the Opposition has a fur- ther supplementary.

MONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6255 J. MacPhail: Well, actually, if this House extends its sitting much longer, there will be several more vague p r o m i s e s s h i f t i n g b a c k a n d f o r t h , b e c a u s e h e r e ' s t h e evolution…. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Let us hear the ques- tion. J. MacPhail: Here's the evolution of the new-era promise not to sell B.C. Rail. It's a fascinating study in Liberal logic.

The promise has gone from keeping the whole operation in public hands — that was during an election — to keeping just the freight service, to only keeping the tracks and now to keeping the land upon which the tracks sit. In fact, the promise that they're only going to keep the right-of-way may wither away, which the Premier has said. Actually, I don't think British Columbians will be surprised if soon the Premier says that his promise not to sell B.C. Rail only included the air in the general area of the B.C. Rail tracks. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. [1430] J.

MacPhail: Will the minister stop this silly cha- rade and admit that she and her Premier are trying to spin their way out of a promise not to sell a profitable public corporation that is essential to the northern economy? Hon. J. Reid: I'm glad we do agree — the member opposite has clarity on that one fact — that indeed this is an essential operation for this province and espe- cially the north of this province. This has been a consis- tent statement… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Hon. J.

Reid: …and in looking at an operating partner in moving forward, in working with the com- munities, we are anticipating that is going to provide the long-term stability and the long-term investment back in B.C. Rail to support the industries and support the communities of this province. Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. POLICE SERVICES IN SURREY B. Locke: My question is to the Solicitor General. The Solicitor General is working on an integration plan for some RCMP detachments in the lower mainland.

In my view, integrating this makes sense because we know that criminals do not care about municipal boundaries. However, Surrey council is considering opting out of this plan and creating its own municipal police force at a great cost to the taxpayer. Can the So- licitor General tell my constituents what he believes will be the most effective and efficient policing system for the residents of Surrey? Hon. R. Coleman: There are really two questions there. First of all, through to the member, there is no opting out of integration and policing in the province of British Columbia.

It is the model for the twenty-first century of policing. Things like serious crime, homi- cide, sex crimes, forensics and ident should all be inte- grated cross-border so information is shared by police departments seamlessly for the investigations of any crime in this province. To the people of Surrey: I can tell you right now you have a world-class police force in the RCMP in Surrey. They are one of the best in the world.

We should remember that those people are out on your streets every night doing a job on behalf of your com- munity, and that discussion that's taking place because someone may not like the design of a management model is only damaging the morale of those profes- sional people in the field of policing in the province of British Columbia. It is not the position to encourage or approve new police forces in British Columbia. We want to see inte- gration; we want to see modernization. That's why we're doing PRIME.

That's why what we're doing in policing is strong for the future, and we'll continue to stand by our plan for policing. IMPACT OF SARS ON TOURISM INDUSTRY I. Chong: Over the past few weeks I've heard from business owners in greater Victoria concerned about the potential impact on tourism due to the SARS out- break. Yesterday the minister participated in a confer- ence call with federal and provincial tourism ministers from across the country.

Can the Minister of Competi- tion, Science and Enterprise update us on what this government is doing to ensure that the tourism indus- try, which is so vital to many parts of our province and in particular to greater Victoria, is not being harmed? Hon. R. Thorpe: We will continue to be very vigi- lant in our work to contain SARS in British Columbia, where our health workers have been very, very suc- cessful, and we should all be very proud of them.

On the conference call on Sunday between the fed- eral minister and the provincial and territorial minis- ters, it was agreed that we would all work together to develop an action plan. We are meeting in Toronto on May 9 and May 10 to review the first draft of that ac- tion plan. We will then meet again on May 23 and May 24 in Vancouver. We are all going to work together. We're going to remain very vigilant, and we're going to develop our marketing plan to release to our key mar-

6256 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 kets at the appropriate time. Together — by everyone in the tourism industry working together — we will have a successful tourism year. FAIR PHARMACARE REGISTRATION S. Brice: My question is to the Minister of Health Services. With the May 1 deadline for registration of Pharmacare about to occur, I have heard from constitu- ents who are not understanding just what the conse- quences are going to be if they don't get signed up by the deadline.

Would the minister please explain what the conse- quences will be for those who don't get signed up by the deadline, but who do require services after that? [1435] Hon. C. Hansen: The first thing I want to empha- size is that there is no deadline for registering for the new Fair Pharmacare program. The program takes e f f e c t o n M ay 1, b u t an i nd i v i d u al c an s i g n u p t o d ay , sign up next month or sign up next year if they want.

But in order to be eligible, if they think they qualify for financial assistance under the new Fair Pharmacare, then we obviously encourage them to sign up sooner than later. There are two groups that should really take the effort sooner than later, and they are low- and middle- income seniors and non-senior families earning under $50,000 a year. Under the new Fair Pharmacare pro- gram they will actually be eligible, by and large, for greater financial assistance than they would have un- der the old program.

I am pleased to tell the member that if a British Columbian doesn't get themselves reg- istered before May 1 and they would qualify for bene- fits prior to them becoming registered, we will in fact, at the end of the year, be reimbursing those individuals for any overpayment they may have made from the period from May 1 until such time as they do get them- selves registered. J. MacPhail: I wasn't actually going to ask a ques- tion on this, but the misinformation on this is astound- ing. The minister just gave out some new information, so they've changed the program again. Here's the con- fusion, Mr. Speaker….

Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order. When the House comes to order, we will continue. J. MacPhail: Not only is the telephone call or the on-line access to this registration not the completion of actually getting your benefits, but, indeed, the minister has just changed the information about how those benefits would apply. We have evidence directly to the contrary. But let me ask this question. The telephone call that can't get through and the on-line access that you can't get through… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. J. MacPhail: …is just the beginning of the registration process.

You then get a form mailed out that you have to sign and send back before you're actually registered. How many affidavits has the minister received to date? Hon. C. Hansen: I'm delighted to get the member's question, because this Fair Pharmacare is actually a great program. What I have found is that British Co- lumbians, particularly British Columbia seniors… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Let's hear the answer, please. Hon. C. Hansen: …when they find out how it's going to impact them, are really quite thrilled, because they will see greater financial assistance under the new Fair Pharmacare program.

We today on our telephone lines are able to register 8,000 families an hour. We can register 7,000 British Columbians on the website simul- taneously. Already to date, we are in excess of 850,000 British Columbia families who are registered. Just to put that in perspective, under the former plans A and plans E in Pharmacare that the new Fair Pharmacare plan is replacing, there were about 440,000 British Columbia families that had tapped into benefits in the past. We already have 850,000 families signed up.

To address the member's specific question about the forms: the member is very correct when she says it is a two-stage process, but from the minute you register on phone or on the website, you are registered and you are eligible for benefits under the Fair Pharmacare pro- gram, and…. Interjections. J. MacPhail: What about privacy? Are you breaking the privacy laws, then? An Hon. Member: No. J. MacPhail: Yes, you are. Hon. C. Hansen: The member is talking about pri- vacy. The whole issue of privacy has been discussed with the office of the privacy commissioner… Interjections. Mr. Speaker: Order. Order, please, Mr.

Minister. Hon. C. Hansen: …and we have taken all the meas- ures necessary to make sure an individual's privacy… Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon. C. Hansen: …is 100 percent protected.

MONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6257 [Mr. Speaker rose.] Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please! When I ask for order, I expect order in this place. The Leader of the Opposition will come to order and listen to the answer. Minister, would you please start over again. Thank you. [1440] [Mr. Speaker resumed his seat.] Hon. C. Hansen: It is a two-stage process, as the member had indicated earlier, but I'm told that an in- dividual can actually go to a pharmacy counter with a very expensive prescription and the pharmacist can advise them what that prescription might cost.

They can literally walk over to a telephone, get themselves registered, walk back to the counter, and they will be in the system and be eligible for benefits. There is a follow-up on that. We do have to confirm what they declare as their income, and we do that through the form that's subsequently sent out. But that is after the fact, because the individual becomes eligible from the minute they are registered, whether it's via telephone or via the website. DEVELOPMENT OF OFFSHORE OIL AND GAS INDUSTRY B. Belsey: My question is to the Minister of Energy and Mines.

I'd like to ask a question that will help pay for the health care system which that member would like to see. The development of offshore oil and gas industry in B.C. is bringing a new spirit of hope to the economies of coastal communities. After recent comments by the Minister of Natural Resources, it appears that the fed- eral government may finally be willing to address the offshore exploration moratorium in B.C. However, last week the federal Minister of Environment offered comments that seem to contradict and confuse the posi- tion of the federal government.

Can the Minister of Energy and Mines clarify for the House the status of the federal review process and what this means for offshore development in British Columbia? Hon. R. Neufeld: The opportunity of offshore oil and gas off the west coast of British Columbia is great news for British Columbians, and we will do it only if it's environmentally sound and very sensitive to the environment. We want to make sure that we're able to continue to provide health care and education in this province. The federal government has committed to a process.

We're attempting to work with the federal government as best as we possibly can to make that happen quicker — but making sure we do the right steps to make sure i t h a p p e n s f o r u s . I n t h a t v e i n , w e h a v e j u s t w r i t t e n another letter to the minister relaying our concerns and wanting to work with them.

As far as the Minister of Environment goes, feder- ally, he seems to be a little bit off base with his col- leagues in Ottawa in a lot of his comments, but we hope that through the good work we're trying to do, someday he will finally realize that good jobs are avail- able in the oil and gas industry off the west coast of British Columbia — just like it is on the east coast, which he supports.

We hope he starts to remember that and that we need some money in British Columbia to continue to provide health care and education and that we'll do it in a very sound, environmentally friendly way. [End of question period.] Tabling Documents Hon. G. Plant: I seek leave to table a document entitled Citizens' Assembly on Electoral Reform: Terms of Reference and Duties of the Chair. Leave granted. Ministerial Statements DAY OF MOURNING FOR WORKPLACE INJURIES AND DEATHS Hon. G. Bruce: I rise today to make a ministerial statement. Today is a day of mourning.

We pay tribute to workers who have been injured or who have died as a result of workplace accidents or diseases. Today, April 28, marks the International Day of Mourning, recognized in nearly 100 countries. In keeping with the importance of this occasion, flags are flying at half- mast in the legislative precincts, at government build- ings throughout the province and across Canada. This day of solemn remembrance is also about our communities. In 2002, 157 British Columbians lost their lives, and in every case a community lost someone whose memory is held dear.

Perhaps it was a soccer coach who helped your kids or a neighbour who could al w ay s b e d e p e nd e d o n o r s i m p l y a f ri e nd l y f ac e t hat you were used to seeing as you went about your daily business. Earlier today I joined a group of people — employ- ers, employees, members of the board from WCB and families of injured or deceased workers — in a memo- rial ceremony in Vancouver. Similar gatherings have been taking place today in communities throughout the province and across the country.

That's because in every community including my own, we have felt the tragedy of losing someone we care about. [1445] A s g o v e r n m e n t w e m u s t c o n t i n u e t o w o r k w i t h businesses, labour associations and communities to reduce the human, social and economic loss that results from workplace accident, injury and disease. Regard- l e s s o f o u r d i f f e re nt v i e ws , w e ne e d t o wo rk c o o p e r a- tively to make every B.C. workplace a safe and healthy

6258 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 w o r k p l a c e . I f e a c h o f u s m a k e s t h a t c o m m i t m e n t , w e can make a difference. J. MacPhail: Today I, too, mourn the loss of pro- ductive workers in this province, either through injury or death, and the effect that has on all of us. In the 1990s, April 28 became recognized in this province as the day of mourning for injured workers. The flag is flying at half-mast in acknowledgment of that. I joined with the Minister of Labour today at a cere- mony in Vancouver, which was as moving as I have ever experienced.

We all shared the statistics and the desire to make things better in British Columbia in this horrible toll. Then we heard from a mom and her two kids, which brought tears to every single one of us. The mom's hus- band and the father of those two kids died about a year and a half ago in a completely preventable worksite acci- dent. The eloquence of all three of them should be re- peated in this Legislature. I hope we all take the time to review what the people around this province are saying, the people who have been affected directly by workplace injury and death — how it is on their lives.

We are consumed with SARS and rightfully so. We as a nation are consumed with SARS. But one of the statistics we heard today, where there are people be- hind every single one of those statistics, is that the number of people who have been killed worldwide by SARS falls short of the number of people who have been killed in only one year in British Columbia alone due to workplace deaths. We must also recognize that those who are fighting SARS on the front lines are workers themselves, health care workers, and they are showing bravery in challenging that.

I know it is only the time to join together with common goals and a common purpose on this day of mourning. I join with everyone in this House, looking forward very, very much to the day when the day of mourning is no longer necessary. Tabling Documents Mr. Speaker: Hon. members, I have the honour to present the auditor general's report No. 10, 2002-03, Adopting Best Practices in Government Financial Statement — 2001-2002. Orders of the Day Hon. G. Collins: I call Committee of Supply. For the information of members, we'll be debating the estimates for the Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management.

Committee of Supply The House in Committee of Supply B; J. Weisbeck in the chair. The committee met at 2:49 p.m. The Chair: We are going to take a five-minute re- cess. The committee recessed from 2:49 p.m. to 3:08 p.m. [J. Weisbeck in the chair.] ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF SUSTAINABLE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT (continued) On vote 37: ministry operations, $90,001,000 (con- tinued). Hon. S. Hagen: There were some questions raised by the hon. member opposite on the Thursday after- noon that we were last in here. I have some answers to those questions, together with a map that I will give to her.

I just want to give a response to some of the ques- tions asked with regard to…. Discussion was around the areas that are not recommended for fish farms. J. MacPhail: I'm sorry — say that again? Hon. S. Hagen: The discussion was about areas not recommended for fish farms. You talked about that. The AOS mapping process was completed on March 12, 2002, and was the first step in completing a North Island straits integrated plan, which was com- pleted December 10, 2002.

The AOS maps are to be used to facilitate finding sites for those farms identified on the provincial relocation lists, not to show where existing farms had a conflict. The maps were accompa- nied by a letter that contained caveats and limitations. [1510] The maps are to be used as a very coarse filter. Map data and siting criteria used to build the maps were used at a very broad scale. Therefore, it is possible that within the areas shown as unavailable due to siting criteria, local area investigations may identify sites that in fact meet the siting criteria.

The maps are at a broad scale, and the subsequent NIS, North Island straits, plan will provide more detailed direction. The subsequent plan shows that all the farms oc- curring within the North Island straits aquaculture no- opportunity areas fall into the following category: the uses acceptable at existing levels of tenure, subject to limited modifications as required by government. Ap- plications for new tenures should not be accepted. Abandoned or underutilized sites should not subse- quently be made available for the same use.

The scope of the NIS plan was to address potential new sites and not to comment on whether or not existing uses should be removed. This is accompanied, by the way, by an Excel spreadsheet showing the marine tenures. I'd like to give this and the map to the member opposite. J. MacPhail: I appreciate that. That was my first follow-up for things promised. Did the minister bring the briefing note on the sale of the land on the Victoria waterfront? During the estimates these were questions he answered with: "I'll get back to you later." Hon. S.

Hagen: I have a two-page briefing note which I'd be pleased to share with the member.

MONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6259 J. MacPhail: Can the minister provide the docu- mentation he promised regarding the consultation that took place between Land and Water B.C. and the city of Courtenay and between Land and Water B.C. and the Comox-Strathcona regional district? Hon. S. Hagen: We will have that very shortly. J. MacPhail: Did the minister bring the timber sur- vey for Lannan forest? Hon. S. Hagen: We do have the timber survey, but the information is confidential until the sale is com- pleted. J. MacPhail: Then I'll get to that in a moment.

Did the minister bring the socioeconomic study of the South Chilcotin Mountains Park? Hon. S. Hagen: W e have a socioeconomic study that is outdated, and we're presently working to up- date that. I can give you the outdated one, and I'll be pleased to share the updated one which will be ready, hopefully, in a couple of weeks. J. MacPhail: What is the date of the outdated one? Hon. S. Hagen: July 2002. J. MacPhail: I'm sorry. How is that outdated? Hon. S. Hagen: We started engaging first nations in S e p t e m b e r o f 2 0 0 2 .

W e h a v e b e e n i n t a l k s w i t h f i r s t nations, arriving hopefully very shortly at an agree- ment with them for participation on the Lillooet plan. So that's the information that we will be incorporating into the new socioeconomic study. J. MacPhail: I have a follow-up question on the issue of the sale process of the Lannan forest. I was reviewing our debate over the two-week break from the Legislature. I'm wondering whether the minister can actually go through the sale process from start to finish — dates, everything. [1515] Hon. S.

Hagen: Yes, I'd be pleased to read the chronology on the sale of Crown land at Lannan Road in the Comox Valley to the Silverado Land Corpora- tion. December 21, 1989. A fax from Silverado indicating interest in acquiring Lannan Road property. June 5, 1990. A letter from Silverado repeating in- terest in acquiring the Crown land. September 10, 1990 — and I'll be pleased to share this, by the way, with the members.

A letter to Silver- ado stating that Crown lands will initiate deletion from the provincial forest and hold for disposition by public competition once services have been extended to the property by Silverado. February 8, 1995. A letter from Minister Sihota to Ruth Masters stating that B.C. Lands has not accepted an application from the Comox-Strathcona regional district to acquire the land for a sports centre. February 13, 1995. A letter to consultants returning the regional district's application for site to use as a sports centre. March 7, 1995.

A letter from the Ministry of Forests stating support for deletion from the provincial forest if the land is used as a sports centre. October 2, 1995. A letter from the regional district to B.C. Lands indicating intent to apply for land as a nature park, an urban fringe buffer to protect visual value. February 2, 1996. A letter to the regional district stat- ing that B.C. Lands does not provide Crown land for urban fringe buffers or preservation of visual values. February 13, '01.

A request from the Ministry of Forests for a statement of British Columbia Assets and Land Corporation's interest in the Crown land as part of a review of the regional district's application to manage recreation trails on site under the agreement with the Ministry of Forests. M a y 3 , ' 0 1 . E - m a i l f r o m B C A L t o t h e M i n i s t r y o f Forests stating that the land should be administered by BCAL. O c t o b e r 2 2 , ' 0 1 .

A m e m o f r o m J a c k H a l l t o G r e g Koyl of the Ministry of Forests requesting that a licence not be issued to the regional district pending comple- tion of a review of the property by BCAL. January 30, '02. An application to the Ministry of Forests from the regional district to take over mainte- nance of trails on the property. February 5, '02. E-mail to Land and Water B.C. from the Ministry of Forests regarding willingness for clarify- ing status of Lannan Road and Lerwick Road properties. March 12, '02.

A memo from Land and Water B.C. to the Ministry of Forests requesting that a licence not be issued to the regional district pending completion of Land and Water British Columbia's review of the prop- erty. March 13, '02. A letter to the regional district from the Ministry of Forests stating that its application is not accepted but that the regional district may apply to Land and Water B.C. for a licence of occupation. March 21, '02. A note from Ministry of Forests that Land and Water B.C.'s letter of March 12, '02, had been sent to the regional district. April 5, '02.

Land and Water B.C. signed a memo- randum of understanding with Silverado regarding purchase of the Crown land to expand Crown Isle golf course from 18 to 27 holes. April 5, '02. A draft MOU presented to the city of Courtenay regarding processes for properties at Lan- nan and Lerwick roads as well as Mallard Creek. April 30, '02. Memo to Ministry of Forests from Land and Water B.C. requesting deletion from the pro- vincial forest and forest land reserve of the Lannan and Lerwick Road properties. May 6, '02. The aboriginal interest assessment re- port completed.

6260 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 July 3, '02. A letter from the Ministry of Forests to Land and Water B.C. confirming that deletion from the provincial forest is proceeding. September 18, '02. Land and Water B.C. declined the regional district's application for a free Crown grant. October 10, '02.

A letter to Minister Hagen from the chair of the regional district regarding Crown land on Hornby Island and at Lannan Road, expressing sur- prise that Land and Water B.C. had declined its request for a licence of occupation on the Lannan Road prop- erty because it was being managed by the development and marketing division. The regional district asked for an update on the status of the Crown parcels and indi- cated that they wished to secure tenure over both. October 11, '02. A letter to Land and Water B.C. from Art Meyers, indicating that Silverado wished to proceed with the purchase of the land.

October 15, '02. A letter from Land and Water B.C. to Art Meyers, stating that Land and Water B.C. will prepare a sales contract with the sale subject to deletion from the provincial forest and the forest land reserve and inclusion of the land within the city. [1520] October 28, '02. A letter to Minister Hagen from the chair of the regional district, indicating concern that the province will no longer issue free Crown grants for local parks, with Lannan Road indicated as an out- standing concern. N o v e m b e r 8 , ' 0 2 .

L e t t e r f r o m M i n i s t e r H a g e n t o chair of the regional district, advising that the Ministry of Forests is removing the land from the provincial forest to allow for disposition by Land and Water Brit- ish Columbia. The letter noted that Land and Water British Columbia had scheduled a meeting for Novem- ber 8, '02, to discuss the regional district's interest in trails on the property adjacent to Crown Isle. November 8, '02.

Land and Water British Columbia met staff of the regional district in Courtenay and ad- vised them of the discussions regarding the sale to the owners of Crown Isle and that the purchaser and the city were expected to agree to establishing trails around the perimeter of the property. November 15, '02. Land and Water British Colum- bia received offer of purchase and sale from Silverado. December 4, '02.

Letter to Minister Hagen from the chair of the regional district thanking him for Mark Hallam's visit on November 8, '02, and stating that the regional district remains opposed to the sale and de- velopment of the land. D e c e m b e r 9 , ' 0 2 . C o m o x V a l l e y L a n d T r u s t s e n t a letter to Minister Hagen regarding the loss of Crown land in the Comox Valley, including the Lannan Road property. December 11, '02. Revised MOU regarding three Courtenay properties sent by Land and Water British Columbia to the city of Courtenay. December 12, '02.

Revised offer of purchase sent to Silverado by Land and Water British Columbia. December 18, '02. Land and Water British Columbia received a copy of a letter to the ombudsman from Bob Campbell. December 19, '02. Land and Water British Columbia signed offer to purchase from Silverado. January 9, '03. Letter from the ombudsman summa- rizing allegations that Land and Water British Colum- bia was unfair and unreasonable in its administration of the proposed sale of the Crown land. January 9, '03. Ministry of Forests approved the deletion of the land from the provincial forest for resi- dential development.

January 17, '03. Letter from Minister Hagen to chair of the regional district advising that Land and Water British Columbia has signed a sales agreement with the owner of Crown Isle. The letter states that Land and Water British Columbia was aware that the regional district was interested in acquiring the land as a park but was also mindful of economic benefits from the expansion of the golf course. January 28, '03.

Land and Water British Columbia e- mailed to city councillor Larry Jangula, explaining that the sale was based on the appraised value of the prop- erty and that there was not a bidding process as the owners of the adjoining golf course were in a unique position to develop the Crown land. January 29, '03. Letter from ombudsman requesting delivery of Lannan Road file for review. January 30,'03.

Letter to Land and Water British Columbia dated January 8, '03, from the Hamatla Treaty Society opposing the sale of the land due to treaty concerns and alleging breach of provincial policy on consultation prior to the alienation of Crown land. February 5, '03. Land and Water British Columbia file sent to the ombudsman. February 12, '03. Files returned from the ombuds- man. February 21, '03. Land and Water British Columbia applied to Courtenay to include the Crown land into the city. March 5, '03. Letter from the ombudsman provid- ing preliminary findings. March 14, '03.

Land and Water British Columbia solicitor wrote to the Comox Valley Record to ask for a retraction of a statement attributed to area B director Barbara Price that Hallam was lying about information the regional district about the sale of the property. March 28, '03. Land and Water British Columbia prepared a chronology for Bill Valentine. March 31, '03. Bill Valentine and Mark Hallam ad- dressed the mayor and council of Courtenay re Lannan Road. For some reason the next is an unknown date.

It says that the minister responded in the Legislature to a question from the chair of the Comox-Strathcona re- gional district regarding the decision to sell the prop- erty to Crown Isle, including the consultation process. April 7, '03. Bill Valentine wrote to the city of Cour- tenay and the editors of the Comox Valley Record and the Comox Valley Echo summarizing the presentation made to the city council. April 8, '03. Land and Water British Columbia re- sponded to the Ministry of Sustainable Resource Man- agement, information and privacy branch, analysis of

MONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6261 e-mails of April 1 and 2 regarding FOI requests from Shirley Ward. April 9, '03. Land and Water British Columbia re- sponded to the city of Courtenay's letter of March 10, ' 0 3 , a d v i s i n g t h a t i t w a s u n a b l e t o c o m m e n t o n t h e status of any inquiry by the ombudsman's office. April 23, '03.

Land and Water British Columbia responded to Shirley Ward's e-mail of April 4, '03, ad- vising that Land and Water British Columbia was pre- paring a statement of its procedures for the marketing and sale of Crown land and would provide a copy when available. [1525] April 24, '03. Land and Water British Columbia responded to the Hamatla Treaty Society's letter dated January 8, '03, regarding Land and Water British Co- lumbia's consideration of first nation interests at Lan- nan Road. April 25, '03.

Land and Water British Columbia provided a briefing note to the Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management, information and privacy branch, re Lannan Road FOI, advising that it may be preferable to release the proposed sale price, even if this may affect a subsequent sale of the land. J. MacPhail: I heard two uses in the application — one, to put nine holes of golf course in. Then in early January — I missed the exact date — was the applica- tion for residential development? Hon. S.

Hagen: I guess the short answer to that question is that the uses the property will be put to will be determined by the zoning of the city of Courtenay. J. MacPhail: I appreciate the minister giving me this, but it does say: "Ministry of Forests approved the deletion of the land from the provincial forests for resi- dential development." That's January 9, '03. So Crown Isle gets the land, but it's up to the city of Courtenay to determine what they can do with that land? Hon. S. Hagen: Crown Isle may or may not get that land. I mean, it depends on whether or not the city takes it within their boundaries.

If it comes within the boundaries of the city of Courtenay, then the city of Courtenay will determine the zoning on that property. J. MacPhail: Why is that up for question? Is it not established now whether the land is inside Courtenay? Maybe the minister could expand on that. Is there some rezoning going on as well? Hon. S. Hagen: There are two conditions, appar- ently, on the offer. One is that it come within the boundaries of the city of Courtenay. The second is that the cabinet authorize through OIC the extension of those boundaries to take in that land. It's a boundary extension application. J.

MacPhail: Those are conditions put on by the purchaser? Hon. S. Hagen: Those are conditions agreed to by both the purchaser and the seller. J. MacPhail: Is the city of Courtenay aware of this? Hon. S. Hagen: Absolutely. J. MacPhail: One of the reasons why I was asking for the timber survey was because there's been quite a bit of a reaction to the minister revealing that the amount of timber is worth $40,000. Is the minister standing by that evaluation? Hon. S. Hagen: Yes. Having seen the two values, I'm very satisfied with that number. R. Sultan: I seek leave to make an introduction. Leave granted.

Introductions by Members R. Sultan: I would like to introduce to the House this afternoon an old friend, Mr. Bill Jennings, who has the distinction of holding several world powerboat speed championships. Should any members miss the ferry, give Bill a call. Would the House please make him welcome. Debate Continued J. MacPhail: All right. Well, we'll have more dis- cussion as information comes up about the timber sur- vey and that, because that got quite an interesting reac- tion from the community. Disbelief wouldn't be too strong a word, but we'll just wait and see the timber survey.

It will be interesting. [1530] I think the minister just said that of the two, he's satisfied, so I'm not sure what he meant by that. What did the minister mean by of the two, he's satisfied? Hon. S. Hagen: I've seen two numbers. The two numbers I've seen make me very satisfied with the number I gave you. J. MacPhail: Okay. I expect I'll be getting all that information. On Muskwa-Kechika. I understand the ministry commits a million dollars annually to the Muskwa- Kechika board and then matches the board up to an- other million. How much did the board raise in '02-03? Hon. S.

Hagen: I'm told the number is around $150,000. We can get the exact number if you would like that. J. MacPhail: Yes, I would, because when this gov- ernment took over, the funding for the Muskwa- Kechika board was $3 million. This government cut it to a commitment of $1 million and then made a great hoo-ha over the fact that there would probably be an-

6262 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 other $2 million there because the board itself could raise $500,000 and the government would match it. I assume the funding now is the equivalent of about $1.3 million, which is less than 50 percent of what it was just two short years ago. Is that correct? Hon. S. Hagen: For '02-03 there was a carryover from the previous year, so the budget for last year was about $2 million. J. MacPhail: We'll get to the bottom of this, so that's not an answer.

An annualized budget of what this gov- ernment has committed is the equivalent of about $1.3 million, as far as I can tell — $1 million from the gov- ernment, $150,000 that was fundraised by the board, and then I assume the government is matching that. So that's $1.3 million for an annual budget, and it was $3 million when this government assumed responsibility. Am I off base? Hon. S. Hagen: No, I don't think so. I think you're accurate. J.

MacPhail: Then I guess the minister's going to be putting out a news release that's taken the glow off the news release he released when he changed the funding for this and had great hope that the private sector would rush in and donate. That was why there was no reason for the government to commit to the board funding for this wonderful, world-class area. Does the government consider the sum raised by the board suf- ficient to continue to protect the Muskwa-Kechika? Hon. S. Hagen: This is where the answer I gave pre- viously comes into play.

There's still the potential for the board to end up with a $3 million budget. However, because of a shortfall in fundraising for this year, their budget was reduced to about $2.3 million, and that's what they have to carry out their operations for '02-03. J. MacPhail: How much did the Oil and Gas Com- mission donate in '02-03? Hon. S. Hagen: I'll provide that information. We just have to get it. J. MacPhail: Okay. I'd like that information before we complete estimates. I'm curious as to why it's not available right now. How much of the $150,000 raised came from the oil and gas industry? Hon. S.

Hagen: A s I s a i d i n a n s w e r t o y o u r l a s t question, we'll get that information for you just as quickly as we can. J. MacPhail: What did the board do with its funds in '02-03? Hon. S. Hagen: I'd be pleased to provide the mem- ber with the annual report, which was released not that long ago. [1535] J. MacPhail: I'm sorry. It was the annual report for '02-03? Hon. S. Hagen: We'll provide the latest annual re- port and also the budget for '02-03. J. MacPhail: Okay, Mr. Chair, this is the time when I'm supposed to get information, not have to wait for information.

But I'll just keep the estimates going, be- cause to shut down the estimates without answer means that the public gets denied the information that it is due. What progress did the Muskwa-Kechika board make during '02-03? What changes occurred in the area? Hon. S. Hagen: Actually, they had a very productive year. They've completed the pre-tenure planning for the Besa-Prophet area. They've done a contract with the Nature Conservancy of Canada for environmental map- ping for the area. They've made good progress on two other pre-tenure plans.

There was first nations consulta- tion and also a joint venture with the Ministry of Energy and Mines on geological potential for natural gas. J. MacPhail: Well, I'll have more questions when I get the information that the minister has promised on donations. If the minister needs to notify staff, I want to talk about contaminated sites. How much money has the ministry devoted to contaminated sites in '02-03, and what's the budget for '03-04? Hon. S. Hagen: There was no money allocated last year because the contaminated sites were just trans- ferred to the ministry in the latter part of '02-03.

In '03- 04 we have budgeted $400,000. J. MacPhail: Yes, I just want to remind the minister. He may not have been listening to the estimates with the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection, but they delegated all these questions around contami- nated sites to the minister, and of course it was this minister that responded to the auditor general's report on contaminated sites that was released in December 2002. How does this budget of $400,000 for this upcom- ing year compare with the amount spent on contami- nated sites last year? [1540] Hon. S.

Hagen: My information is that there was no money spent in '02-03 because of the transfer of re- sponsibility to SRM. The $400,000 that I mentioned is budgeted for '03-04. J. MacPhail: Okay. And of course, the auditor gen- eral did release a report in December of 2002 on con- taminated sites. How much goes to developing "gov- ernmentwide policies that will guide management plans for contaminated sites on Crown land"?

MONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6263 Hon. S. Hagen: The answer is about half, about $200,000, to develop policy across ministries. J. MacPhail: How many FTEs are dedicated to gov- ernmentwide policies? Hon. S. Hagen: Five. J. MacPhail: And how is this governmentwide policy- making that the minister said he was carrying out…? How does it work? Perhaps he could outline for us how it's working right now. Hon. S.

Hagen: Identifying, inventorying, assessing and prioritizing sites; establishing a process for re- source allocation and funding; and rationalized per- formance targets for the governmentwide business plan with staff and resources. J. MacPhail: And who sits on…? What ministries are involved in this? I know the minister made a com- mitment to governmentwide, but what are the exact ministries involved in this policy-making? Hon. S. Hagen: The Ministry of Transportation; Ministry of Forests; Ministry of Energy and Mines; Land and Water B.C.; Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection; B.C. Hydro; BCBC; B.C.

Ferries; B.C. Rail. J. MacPhail: What resources has the minister dedi- cated to the creation of a central registry of contami- nated sites? Perhaps he could describe how the registry will operate. Hon. S. Hagen: The establishment of databases will be complete at the end of fiscal year '03-04 in working with the agencies and ministries I mentioned. J. MacPhail: And what will the registry look like? Is it public? How do we access it? Hon. S. Hagen: Yes, it's part of our integrated regis- try work that we are doing in the ministry. The informa- tion will be public, and it'll be posted on our website. [1545] J.

MacPhail: Now, I must confess, Mr. Chair: I'm a bit taken aback by a budget the size of $400,000. Let's be clear. That's $400,000 that will be committed over 24 months. The minister has said nothing was spent in '02- 03, even though the auditor general's report came down at the beginning of December and there were four months left in that fiscal year where activity could have taken place. We have $400,000 over 24 months. The minister has said $200,000 will go to establishing the govern- mentwide policies. That only leaves $200,000 for real work. What's that being spent on? Hon. S.

Hagen: I just want to correct the member. It's $400,000 over 12 months. The previous 12 months are gone. J. MacPhail: So you spent zero. Hon. S. Hagen: I think that's what I said, yes. J. MacPhail: Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Hon. S. Hagen: We're working on a business plan to confirm the contaminated sites registry, a site inven- tory; establish the database; develop governmentwide policies relating to management of contaminated sites and reporting guidelines; and then work on managing the individual sites. J. MacPhail: My point about the 24 months was this.

At the end of the '03-04 budget, over the course of the two years previous to March 31, '04, this government will have spent a total of $400,000. Nothing was spent in '02-03, by the minister's admission, and he's spending $400,000 this year. Over a period of 24 months the government will have spent a maximum of $400,000. How much money…? I didn't hear anything being listed for dedication to the remediation of contami- nated sites. Hon. S. Hagen: The $400,000 does not include money for remediation. Remediation would be the response of the agency or the ministry in which the responsibility lies.

If we were to need more money in SRM, we would have to go back to Treasury Board. J. MacPhail: Y e s , b u t t h i s m i n i s t e r i s i n c h a r g e o f this project, by his own admission. How much money across government is being spent on remediation of contaminated sites, then? Hon. S. Hagen: As I said previously, we do not have the responsibility for remediation. That responsi- bility lies with the Ministry of Forests or the other agencies, B.C. Hydro and the other agencies that I read out — Land and Water B.C., B.C. Ferries, etc. J.

MacPhail: The minister said this — not only to me just now but to the public when the auditor gen- eral's report on contaminated sites was released: he was in charge of governmentwide policies that will guide management plans for contaminated sites on Crown lands. Does this mean that you're not discuss- ing how to remediate contaminated sites — that the minister has no information about this? How can you be in charge if you don't know? Hon. S. Hagen: My ministry provides the informa- tion and the data necessary to identify these sites, and the remediation is carried out by the agency or the ministry responsible.

J. MacPhail: What follow-up do you do? Hon. S. Hagen: My ministry will be auditing the s i t e s , a n d a l s o , w e h a v e t o r e p o r t b a c k a n n u a l l y t o Treasury Board.

6264 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 J. MacPhail: What's the nature of the reporting you would do? Sorry, Mr. Chair. What's the nature of what the minister would do? Is there a requirement to list the number of contaminated sites that have been reme- diated? What's the budget? [1550] The response to the auditor general was that this minister was taking charge — taking charge govern- mentwide. So far we have $400,000 being spent on this over the course of 24 months. That's piddly. I can't get any information about how much is being invested in remediation. When will the minister know?

When does the monitoring start about remediation? Hon. S. Hagen: Our job is to have a central place for gathering the data and the information that is needed. WLAP's job is the regulations. We are to report back annually to Treasury Board, including the liability number we see in each site. J. MacPhail: Okay, but this minister is the one who's responsible for Crown land. No matter which way you look at it, this minister gets paid the big bucks because he's in charge of Crown land. If he's not reme- diating Crown land, who is? Hon. S.

Hagen: In the case of the mining companies, they are responsible, under their permit, to clean up their sites. B.C. Hydro is responsible for its site cleanup. B.C. Rail and any of the other agencies are responsible to clean up the individual sites they're involved with. J. MacPhail: There are contaminated sites on Crown land that don't involve any of those agencies or Crown corps, so what's happening? Hon. S. Hagen: I'm not sure if the member opposite has a specific example of that. I mean, the mining com- panies operate on Crown land. They have to remediate their site.

These things take place on Crown land, so I'm not exactly sure where you're going. J. MacPhail: Here we have a situation where an auditor general's report has been released. In order to get off the hook, this government said: "Oh yes, we agree with the auditor general's report. We're going to take action." I'm trying to figure out what action the government is taking. So far, nothing. Does he go to the mining companies and say: "Please remediate land"? What if they've abandoned the land? Hon. S.

Hagen: The mining companies have a statutory responsibility under the Mining Act and have also posted a bond, which can be called if they don't do what they're supposed to do. J. MacPhail: Then the minister can give me an up- date on how it's going. Hon. S. Hagen: That's exactly what we're doing. As I read out to the member opposite, we're confirming the contaminated sites registry, which is ongoing, and we will be releasing the site inventory at the end of the third quarter of '03-04. J. MacPhail: Okay.

Here's what the auditor general recommended: "Government identify a lead agency to coordinate a governmentwide policy for management" — that's this minister — "creation of a comprehensive information regime, a registry that prioritizes sites on risk. The establishment of an accountability framework that includes financial liability, expenditure and ac- complishment…." Is that what the minister's working on now? Hon. S. Hagen: Yes. What the member did was read out what I actually read to her. I can read it out over again, but I won't. Anyway, yes, she's right. [1555] J.

MacPhail: It's my job to ask the questions, and it's the minister's job to show what action has been taken on this. I guess maybe by December or January, the minister might have a registry. What happens after that, then? How do we actually get the companies to clean up the land on Crown land, for which the minis- ter is taking no responsibility? What's the next step? Hon. S. Hagen: Our first priority is to go to the polluter. As I said to you, WLAP sets the regulations.

If the polluter has left or is gone or has no ability to do it, then there's an assessment made of the liability, and my ministry goes to Treasury Board to ask for the funds to do the cleanup. J. MacPhail: How does the ministry decide whether or not Crown land should be remediated? Hon. S. Hagen: The Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection sets the standards and the regulations, and we go under their direction. J. MacPhail: Well, I'm not going to allow for a merry-go-round on this. The Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection referred me to this minister, so what are those standards?

Do those standards have to be met before the land is released for tenure? Hon. S. Hagen: The standards are set out in the Waste Management Act, which comes under the Minis- try of Water, Land and Air Protection. J. MacPhail: You know, it's unbelievable. I'm the only one asking questions, and these ministers as a group dodge and weave. They refer to their colleagues; they won't answer the questions. The Minister of Wa- ter, Land and Air Protection referred all of these ques- tions to this minister, and he stands up and refers it back to her. It's pathetic. It's nothing short of pathetic.

Does this minister not know the determinants that are used? Hon. S. Hagen: Certainly, my staff does.

MONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6265 J. MacPhail: Then perhaps the staff could tell the minister, who could tell me, who could then…. It could be on the public record. Hon. S. Hagen: The standards are public. They're on the website of the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection. Also, a report that has been done recently is on the website about which areas might need to be modified. J. MacPhail: Does redevelopment have anything to do in ranking properties for remediation? Hon. S. Hagen: Yes. In answer to the question, re- development may be an issue as far as the sites are concerned. J.

MacPhail: I wonder how much. The reason why I'm asking this is because I want to know whether the government is going to commit valuable resources to remediation of certain Crown lands in order to pro- mote development and attract business, when other Crown lands may have a higher priority for remedia- tion. [1600] [H. Long in the chair.] Hon. S. Hagen: We presently have a special vote in our ministry for two specific sites: Britannia, $75 mil- lion, and Pacific Place, $50 million. This is a special vote under our budget. It's not part of the ministry budget. J.

MacPhail: So did the minister answer my general question with those two specifics, thereby implying that those are the only two sites for redevelopment that are given priority for remediation? Is that why he an- swered in that way? Hon. S. Hagen: That's correct. J. MacPhail: What list was the minister reading from? Is there a list of sites that are ready for remedia- tion? Hon. S. Hagen: There was a partial list in the audi- tor general's report which covered those two sites and a few others. J.

MacPhail: Given a budget of 400,000 bucks, where would the minister rank remediation of con- taminated sites in his priorities? Is there an outcome goal listed in his service plan, for instance? Hon. S. Hagen: It is in our service plan, and cer- tainly if there were an issue of public health involved, the rating would be very, very high. J. MacPhail: Maybe the minister could tell me then what the criteria are for determining high priority. I'm trying to get him to put it on the public record. I'm hav- ing difficulty. Hon. S.

Hagen: T h e r a t i n g w o u l d b e v e r y h i g h i n instances of public health potential damage and also any potential damage to water, land or air. J. MacPhail: The moneys that were committed to the Expo lands and to the Britannia mine lands were committed by previous governments, the previous Social Credit government and the previous NDP gov- ernment. This government hasn't committed any money of its own to remediation. [1605] What does this ministry do if lands are contami- nated and there is no owner still in operation or no identified owner-polluter for Crown land? Hon. S.

Hagen: Actually, I already answered that, and the answer is that we go to Treasury Board to ask for the funds. J. MacPhail: Yes, except the minister can't tell me how he's identifying that. That's what I'm asking. Is there an inventory of such sites where there is no iden- tified owner to target? And where are they? Hon. S. Hagen: As I mentioned beforehand, the contaminated sites management program consists of doing the business plan and, in specific answer to the member opposite, confirming the contaminated sites registry and doing the site inventory. That's what we're working on right now. J.

MacPhail: Well, Land and Water B.C has plans to aggressively market land tenures and sales of Crown land. Is the minister doing that where the information about the site being contaminated or not is not yet available? Hon. S. Hagen: No. I don't think that Land and Water B.C. would be marketing land that had envi- ronmentally damaging products on it. J. MacPhail: Well, let's explore what Land and Wa- ter B.C. is going to do. They're going to, by their own admission, aggressively market land tenures and sales of Crown lands.

They said: "It's an untapped market." What check does the minister have that ensures there are no contaminated sites? What check does the minister have to ensure that there's public consultation in the sale of Crown land? Hon. S. Hagen: Any Land and Water B.C. site that has any potential liability from an environmental standpoint goes through an environmental assessment process. J. MacPhail: Okay — and the question about the check on public consultation? Hon. S. Hagen: If there is environmental liability on a piece of property that originally was put up for

6266 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 sale — if there's found to be that liability — it wil l be taken off the market and not sold. J. MacPhail: Sorry. I'm moving on a little bit, broadening the discussion. I appreciate the minister's answer, but I'm broadening the discussion generally about tenures and land sales now and what checks and balances are in place around that. One question was on making sure the site was not contaminated. The next question was on ensuring public consultation during a sale process. [1610] Hon. S.

Hagen: The service plan for Land and Wa- ter B.C. lays out the things that Land and Water B.C. look at in the sale of a property. One of the most impor- tant things is the sustainability principles which we have. They have to be met in the sale of a piece of property. J. MacPhail: What's the assurance about public consultation during a sale? Hon. S. Hagen: Land and Water B.C. works very closely with local governments when they're looking at a piece of property. It does market surveys and other information to find the value of the property. It looks at the assessed value of the property.

But generally speak- ing, it works with local governments. J. MacPhail: What are the guidelines that Land and Water B.C. follow when allocating land? Hon. S. Hagen: The guidelines that are presently in place at Land and Water B.C. are out of date. They came in about four or five years ago. The board has looked at a revised set of guidelines, and when they've reached a determination on those guidelines, they'll be presented to me. I've not yet seen them. J. MacPhail: What guidelines do staff follow now — the outdated ones? Hon. S. Hagen: Yes, they're using the ones I re- ferred to as outdated.

This is all part of the file we in- herited with the long list of outstanding applications for Crown land and water. The staff determined at that time that the guidelines would have to be updated. Those are the updated guidelines that are now being looked at by the board, and when their work finished, they'll be passed up to me. J. MacPhail: So for two years, I guess, this minister has been operating an operation for which he says the guidelines are outdated. That's interesting. What does Land and Water B.C. do to assess poten- tial environmental impacts of tenure holders' activities as they apply? Hon. S.

Hagen: I wonder if I could get the member to repeat her question. The Chair: Would the Leader of the Opposition like to repeat her question, please. [1615] J. MacPhail: I'm wondering what Land and Water B.C. uses in the area of guidelines to assess the poten- tial environmental impact of the tenure holders' activi- ties who are applying for either lease or Crown land ownership. Hon. S. Hagen: The guidelines are reviewed. They look for conflicts and try to resolve the conflicts. There's a referral process that then refers it to other ministries or agencies.

There will be conditions that are put on the tenuring process. If there are violations of those, the land officer who finds the violation has the ability to penalize or pull the tenure. J. MacPhail: Does Land and Water B.C. investigate the potential socioeconomic impact of the potential tenure holder's activities? Hon. S. Hagen: The staff makes sure that it's a vi- able management plan and makes sure the tenure ap- plicants can meet the conditions that are imposed in the tender offer and that due diligence is done. J. MacPhail: Does the management plan require submission on socioeconomic costs? Hon. S.

Hagen: Yes. That's an issue where there might be conflicting uses or conflicting tenures, and the socioeconomic study takes a big play in that. J. MacPhail: Is there a ranking of factors like envi- ronmental or socioeconomic? Does the government rank importance? Hon. S. Hagen: There is no ranking. If there are significant environmental liabilities or possibility of that, then that would be a big part of the consideration. But we try to accommodate and we try to find ways to settle the conflicts that may be there at the beginning. When the parties sit down together, they can usually resolve those conflicts. J.

MacPhail: Sorry. Could the minister repeat the deadline for when he expects the new guidelines to be in place? When is that expected? Will they be subject to public review? Hon. S. Hagen: The interim draft guidelines have been presented to the board, as I mentioned. The final guidelines I will expect to see in about a month, and they will be posted on our website. J. MacPhail: Has the board done public consulta- tion? Hon. S. Hagen: There was no public consultation done. What was looked at was what the province of

MONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6267 Ontario does, what the province of Alberta does and what the Canada land corporation does. [1620] J. MacPhail: How many applications for lease were made in '02-03 and how many applications for sale in '02-03, and how do those figures compare to those two categories for '01-02? Hon. S. Hagen: The increase in tenure and licence activities in '02-03. There were 1,529 new land tenures issued. There were 691 new water licences issued, over 2,000 replacement tenures issued and 492 water licence amendments issued. The reduction of backlog and elimination of delays.

There was eliminated land application backlog — over 1,480 applications. Exceeded the 90 percent target for reduction in historical water licence backlog — over 1,980 licences, to its lowest level in over 40 years. Referral agreements in place with provincial agen- cies. Land and water application processing. We re- designed an integrated application process to achieve 50 percent reduction in processing time and a more streamlined process for clients; 90 percent of new land applications were processed within 140 days.

We ex- ceeded the 90 percent target for processing land re- placement tenures — over 1,690 tenures — developed and implemented a 140-day turnaround processing time for all new water applications, effective April 1, 2003. I can go into revenue and expenditures if you would like those numbers — $93 million generated in land sales and tenure management activity, which is an increase of $20 million over the previous year. Fore- casting net profit of $746,000 for the year ending March 31, '03. We'll complete the year below the current ex- penditure limit of $22.5 million.

Achieved a reduction of $2.73 million in expendi- tures from last fiscal year. Substantial improvement in revenue collection — 92 percent of land rents collected within 90 days. Reduced cost–gained efficiencies re- sulted in improved revenue and expenditure ratio from 3 to 1 to 4 to 1. The comparison numbers that you asked for on land backlog applications. There were 40 in '01-02 and 30 in '02-03. Water backlog applications. There were 402 in '01- 02 and 158 in '02-03. Land replacement backlog. There were 518 in '01- 02, and 187 in '02-03. Water amendment backlog — the same: 2,450 each year.

In new land tenures issued, in '01-02 there were 1,506 and in '02-03, 1,529. New oil and gas tenures issued — 710 in '01-02 to 2,381 in '02-03. Replacement tenures issued — 1,364 in '01-02 to 2,020 in '02-03. Water licence amendments issued — 422 in '01-02 to 492 in '02-03. New water licence issued — 789 in '01-02 and 691 in '02-03. J. MacPhail: I'm sorry. Did the minister say the jump was from 700-odd to 2,300-odd in oil and gas tenders? Hon. S. Hagen: Yes, that's correct. J. MacPhail: Okay. Well, when you take that out, what's the…? I mean, I'm interested…. Believe you me, let's give credit where credit is due.

This sounds like a good record. But when you take the oil and gas tenders o u t , w h a t ' s t h e … ? D o e s t h a t h a v e a n e f f e c t o n t h e change in terms of successful statistics? [1625] I mean, I do understand that the backlog is disap- pearing, because what I'm trying to find out is…. The minister said that he's using the same guidelines that are outdated, but that's what he's been working with. If you remove the oil and gas tenders, what's changed? Hon. S. Hagen: One of the reasons for the turn- around is that we're now processing applications in 140 days.

I want to clarify that not every land application is approved; 40 percent of the applications for Crown land tenure are not approved. J. MacPhail: What was the turnaround time in '01- 02 or 2000-01? What was the turnaround time then? Hon. S. Hagen: I am told that it used to be two years for a land application and 15 months for water. There was no target set until the year 2002. J. MacPhail: Well, it's all right for the minister to be glib.

I'm not trying to say the minister is trying to at- tack the record of Land and Water B.C., but there were major changes to BCAL in 1999, which is the precursor to Land and Water B.C. I'm trying to figure out what it is that the minister and Land and Water B.C. are doing differently, using the same guidelines that were used previously. Are there fewer steps? Are there fewer things that the tenure holder or the applicant has to do? What is it? Hon. S. Hagen: Well, we realized that we needed to make some changes with BCAL, which became Land and Water B.C.

The first thing was a change in man- agement, more client focus. The people who now work in Land and Water B.C. are really focused on giving the client service. We set targets for revenue and also for application turnaround. J. MacPhail: So being more client-focused has led to this. You take the same rules and guidelines that you had before, but you're more client-focused. That's what's led to the reduction? I mean, this is a business, so there's got to be an explanation of where the reduc- tion in time has occurred. Were there nine steps under

6268 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES M ONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 the previous guidelines, and you're now using these same guidelines in four steps, or what is it? Hon. S. Hagen: The whole application process was taken apart. I have to say that I am very complimentary with regard to the staff at Land and Water B.C., be- cause they have done an exceptional job not only in reducing the backlog but also in the approach they take to dealing with current applications. As I say, 90 per- cent of those applications are dealt with in 140 days. J.

MacPhail: Well, I don't want to start off a second part of a session accusing the minister of not giving me answers. I'm actually trying to figure out what it is that has changed that has led to this success, and the minis- ter is unable to tell me — unable to tell me. That was why I asked my questions earlier about socioeconomic costs or environmental costs having to be identified. Is there greater priority or less priority given to those? Anyway, I'm frustrated already, I must say. Does Land and Water B.C. consult first nations be- fore allocation of all land? [1630] Hon. S.

Hagen: Consultation with first nations is based on the assessment of interest that first nations may have on a particular piece of property. The consul- tation guidelines for Land and Water B.C. are presently being reviewed. We are in discussions with first na- tions on that as well, but it depends on the assessment of interest of the particular first nation. J. MacPhail: How does a first nation express that? Hon. S. Hagen: The obligation, as you know, is on us, Land and Water B.C., to consult if there is an as- sessment of interest. The response from the first na- tions may be a combination of things.

It might be in writing. It might be a no-response. It might be discus- sions around a table to reach an accommodation. It might be looking for potential partnerships with first nations. It can involve any number of consultations and accommodation. J. MacPhail: Is it up to the first nations to go through the websites and figure out what applications are made? How does that work? Hon. S. Hagen: As I said, we are very proactive on this. The obligation is on us to do the consulting. J. MacPhail: Is there coordination with the treaty negotiations office? Hon. S. Hagen: Absolutely. J.

MacPhail: Are the decisions published, or are they communicated to first nations? Are they commu- nicated to local residents? How are the decisions made? How do we find out, including first nations, about decisions? Hon. S. Hagen: If Land and Water B.C. is in consul- tation with first nations, then we are obliged to let the first nations know of our reasons and our decision. The reasons are also posted on the website of Land and Water B.C. J. MacPhail: What does LWBC do with their duty to accommodate? [1635] Hon. S. Hagen: Certainly, the issue of accommoda- tion, as the member knows, is new.

We are working on a framework together with the treaty negotiations of- fice on accommodation. Again, it will vary. It can vary from band to band, from property to property. There is a range of activities. Land and Water B.C. works very closely with the staff at the TNO and also the Sustain- able Resource Management ministry on consultation and accommodation. J. MacPhail: Is that duty listed in the consultation document that the government issued a few months ago in terms of consultation with first nations? Where would I find that? Hon. S.

Hagen: I'm told you were provided with a copy of that document, the consultation guidelines. If you'd like another one, we'll provide you with that. Those consultation guidelines were updated because of the recent court cases like Haida, Haida 2 and the Taku River Tlingit. J. MacPhail: I have the consultation document. That's what I just said. Are the guidelines for Land and Water B.C. the same guidelines that are included in the duty to accommodate across government? Hon. S. Hagen: The guidelines that were sent out last fall are operational guidelines for all ministries.

In the meantime, all ministries and agencies like Land and Water B.C. are developing their guidelines using that, I guess, as an example to make sure the guidelines we have in Land and Water B.C. will work for Land and Water B.C. and the first nations. J. MacPhail: How many applications are being challenged by first nations now? Hon. S. Hagen: I'm told the number is two or three. J. MacPhail: I'm going to move to agricultural land reserve. This minister is responsible for the Agricul- tural Land Commission.

I understand the Agricultural Land Commission committed to increasing its profile in rural British Columbia. I wonder how the minister is doing that when the number of FTEs in the Agricul- tural Land Commission is declining from 43 in '01-02 to 20 FTEs by '04-05. Hon. S. Hagen: We have a delegation agreement with the Oil and Gas Commission, which has taken

MONDAY, APRIL 28, 2003 B RITISH COLUMBIA DEBATES 6269 some of the work away. The regional panels that were set up — I think there are six — have been doing a good job. That saves decisions coming back into the head office. [1640] J. MacPhail: Well, sorry. Are panels not counted as part of the 20 FTEs or something? Hon. S. Hagen: No, the panels are commissioners actually. They're not FTEs. They're commissioners that are appointed by OIC. J. MacPhail: The panel work in the regions is in addi- tion to the work of the Agricultural Land Commission staff.

Are you saying because those panels are in the re- gions, that's a higher profile? If the answer to that is yes, perhaps the minister could explain how that works. Hon. S. Hagen: Definitely, the Agricultural Land Commission has a higher profile in the regions. The commissioners meet with every applicant. They actu- ally look at every piece of property. The number of applications has not changed. It's about the same — about 500. The largest reduction in FTEs came…. There were apparently five FTEs working with the forest land reserve, which we've done away with. J.

MacPhail: T h e A g r i c u l t u r a l L a n d C o m m i s s i o n didn't do this work before. Is that right? Hon. S. Hagen: I am told we have the same number of staff in the Agricultural Land Commission working on applications and carrying out those applications as before. There was a reduction in some mapping staff. That work has been taken over by Sustainable Re- source Management, which, if you recall, has consoli- dated all of the mapping and data collection the gov- ernment does. J.

MacPhail: If it's the same number of staff doing the work they did before — and I actually have infor- mation doing it in exactly the same way — how is the minister actually getting a higher profile — the Agri- cultural Land Commission? What's the advance? That's what I'm looking for. Hon. S. Hagen: Great question, actually. The ad- vance is that we actually have local panels now in the regions making those decisions loca

Document details

Collection	British Columbia — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	H0428pm-09
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	H0428pm 09
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	51dd15ff27755ff73d69b5aae01eeccd028f64d3

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