Second Session, 42nd Parliament

(2021) OFFICIAL REPORT

OF DEBATES

(HANSARD)

Monday, June 7, 2021

Afternoon Sitting

Issue No. 86

ISSN 1499-2175

The HTML transcript is provided for informational purposes only.

The PDF transcript remains the official digital version.

CONTENTS

Routine Business

Introductions by Members

Statements (Standing Order 25B)

Graduates of 2021 in Burnaby

J. Routledge

Canadian Armed Forces

D. Davies

Food safety

A. Singh

Visual safety initiative by White Cane Club in 100 Mile House

L. Doerkson

Indigenous leadership and forestry conservation program

A. Walker

Innovative salmon harvesting process and use by First Nations

E. Ross

Oral Questions

Ambulance response times

S. Bond

Hon. A. Dix

R. Merrifield

Deferral of old-growth logging and role of First Nations

A. Olsen

Hon. K. Conroy

COVID-19 relief grant eligibility for Royal Canadian Legion branches and ANAVETS club

B. Banman

Hon. R. Kahlon

Anchor attractions program and COVID-19 response for tourism industry

L. Doerkson

Hon. M. Mark

Application of freedom-of-information legislation to InBC Investment Corp.

T. Stone

Hon. R. Kahlon

Orders of the Day

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Jobs, Economic Recovery and Innovation

Hon. R. Kahlon

T. Stone

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Attorney General (continued)

Hon. D. Eby

M. de Jong

T. Wat

A. Olsen

D. Davies

Proceedings in the Birch Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries (continued)

Hon. L. Popham

I. Paton

S. Furstenau

MONDAY, JUNE 7, 2021

The House met at 1:35 p.m.

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.]

Routine Business

Introductions by Members

M. Dykeman: I rise today in the House to wish a very happy birthday to one of my

constituents who is watching from home, who also happens to be the father of

one of my lovely CAs. I was wondering if the House could please join me in

wishing Lyle Pona a very happy birthday.

A. Olsen: As I continue to follow through on a commitment that I made to the

Holding Hope group, which I met a couple of weeks back, to continue to

introduce the members to this House and who took the time to share their

personal stories, today I want to welcome both Sheena and Wanda, who are

watching us today.

They both have very difficult stories of their sons. Sheena’s son is

25 years old, and Wanda’s son is 32 years old. Both have had substantial

challenges over the years with addictions. Eight years, 12 years in

respectively, cocaine, heroin, fentanyl. Just a tragic story. The

consistency that they’ve provided, in terms of the frustration that they

have felt in trying to get the kinds of supports they need for their

sons.

I wanted to take the time today to introduce them and thank them for

watching the proceedings today. They will be watching us, as the Holding

Hope group will be, for the remainder of this session at least, to welcome

into the work that they see we’re doing here and to let them know that our

thoughts and prayers are with them, as they work through the challenges of

their families.

Statements

(Standing Order 25B)

GRADUATES OF 2021 IN BURNABY

J. Routledge: More than 1,000 students are graduating this month from Burnaby

North high schools: Moscrop, Alpha, Burnaby Central, Burnaby North. To

keep themselves and their community safe, they have sacrificed

milestones and traditions like proms, tournaments, performances and grad

ceremonies. Many of them are feeling a tremendous sense of

loss.

So I rise in the House today to honour the class of 2021. Your

community is proud of you. You completed high school under conditions

that were at times frustrating, confusing, even scary. Yet you adapted

and found creative ways to continue learning. You’ve been isolated from

your peers. Your sense of belonging has been tested, yet you found other

ways to stay connected. Your teachers have noticed your amazing

resiliency, determination and perseverance, and they want you to know

that you inspire them.

During this pandemic you have witnessed, either directly or

through media, the best and the worst in human behaviour. Yet so many of

you have responded with maturity and a sense of social solidarity beyond

your years.

As one parent told me: “This past year has taught my kids to be

more patient, compassionate and understanding towards others, and more

adaptable to situations over which they have no control.”

In conclusion, you’re coming of age in an age that poses an

unprecedented combination of challenges: the existential threat of

climate change, the depth of racism and injustice laid bare, the power

it.

Your generation will find solutions to these challenges that my

generation cannot even begin to imagine.

[1:40 p.m.]

CANADIAN ARMED FORCES

D. Davies: For many of us, yesterday was just another Sunday. But 77 years

ago, June 6 was a day that 14,000 brave young Canadians would change the

course of history forever. Facing strong defences and heavy casualties,

Canadian Forces bravely supported the allies in the D-Day landings to

set foot on Juno Beach in Normandy and take the first of many long steps

to Berlin and the eventual liberation of Europe.

Nearly 80 years later

and the same spirit of strength, bravery and sacrifice is still found in

the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces today as they continue to

serve every day for the security and the betterment of the world and

Canada.

Our courageous soldiers, sailors, aviators and all the members in

uniform that support the multiple roles of the Canadian Forces continue

to serve around the world, taking

part in peacekeeping and humanitarian

efforts, supporting those in need and helping bring peace and security

around the world. Even here at home we are reminded of the incredible

value of our service women and men on a daily basis.

Throughout the pandemic, our Canadian Armed Forces members have

responded to the call to help fight COVID-19 and protect lives. Through

Operation Vector, they are providing support to the federal, provincial

and territorial governments for the distribution of COVID-19 vaccines,

while helping fight the global pandemic through Operation

Laser.

Canadian Armed Forces Day serves as a reminder, a day to show our

gratitude for all of those who put on the uniform and have served or

continue to serve Canada. From our regular forces to our primary

reservists, the Canadian Rangers, the cadet instructors, we thank all of

you for the commitments that you have made or are making. This includes

a number of people who work in this building. I see lots of people that

are staff members within this precinct.

Will the House please join me in thanking all of those who have

served or will or are serving our Canadian Armed Forces.

FOOD SAFETY

A. Singh: Today is designated by the United Nations as World Food Safety

Day, important for a province like British Columbia where food security,

sustainability and safety are paramount, especially as those have become

much more paramount in the time of COVID.

Access to sufficient amounts of safe food is key to sustaining

life and promoting good health. Food-borne illnesses are usually

infectious or toxic in nature and often invisible to the plain eye,

caused by bacteria, viruses, parasites or chemical substances. Food

safety has a critical role in ensuring that food stays safe at every

stage of the food chain, from production to harvest, processing,

storage, distribution, all the way to preparation and

consumption.

With an estimated 600 million cases of food-borne illnesses

annually in this world, unsafe food is a threat to human health and

economies, disproportionately affecting vulnerable and marginalized

people, especially women and children, populations affected by

conflicts, and migrants. An estimated 420,000 people around the world

die every year after eating contaminated food. Children under five years

of age carry 40 percent of the food-borne disease burden, with 125

deaths every year.

This is not only somewhere else. We also have heard, all of us,

the problems that Indigenous communities have with safe drinking water

here in Canada. As of April, I believe there are still 11 communities in

British Columbia with water advisories.

World Food Safety Day, June 7, aims to draw attention and inspire

action to help prevent, detect and manage food-borne risks contributing

to food security. Under the theme “Food safety is everyone’s business,”

the action-oriented campaign promotes global food safety awareness and

calls upon countries and decision-makers, the private sector, civil

society, United Nations organizations and the general public to take

action.

VISUAL SAFETY INITIATIVE BY

WHITE CANE CLUB IN 100 MILE

HOUSE

L. Doerkson: It is indeed an honour to rise and take the opportunity to commend

the 100 Mile House and District Blind and Visually Impaired White Cane

Club and, of course, Lori Fry, who leads this initiative with respect to

the efforts to protect not only those people visually impaired but all

of the residents of 100 Mile House and the surrounding area also. Their

most recent effort will see visible colour contrast on things like

stairs and railings, poles, curbing and curb cuts throughout the

community.

[1:45 p.m.]

The White Cane Club, of course, invites all businesses and

residents to get involved with this initiative that will undoubtedly

create a much safer and brighter downtown core for all of our residents,

reducing the risk of injury. The White Cane Club points out that

prevention is the best way to avoid injury.

This is all happening in 100 Mile House at no cost to business. It

is as simple as reaching out to the White Cane Club, and they will work

out the details. They’re grateful to the South Cariboo Business Centre,

district of 100 Mile House and the South Cariboo Chamber of Commerce for

supporting the initiative already. While it has been delayed due to the

pandemic, they’re very eager to get started again.

This is a perfect example of an excellent community project that

I’m sure all of our community will support.

Today I just wanted all of the House to join me in congratulating

the 100 Mile House and District Blind and Visually Impaired White Cane

Club on this fabulous initiative for the benefit of our entire

community.

INDIGENOUS LEADERSHIP AND

FORESTRY CONSERVATION

PROGRAM

A. Walker: I want to take a moment to talk about the United Nations

declaration on the rights of Indigenous Peoples, how it connects to

forestry in our province and some of the incredible work being done

mid-Island. British Columbia was the first province to introduce

legislation to incorporate UNDRIP, and it forms the foundation of our

work towards reconciliation. Reconciliation requires a continuous and

ongoing commitment to engaging as partners in ways that respect the

unique rights, interests and circumstances of Indigenous Peoples to

determine their own future.

Last week I had the opportunity to meet Eli Enns. Eli spoke of his

ancestors and how, by working with nature, they were able to nurture and

enhance the abundance of the land. He also introduced me to the Iisaak

Olam Foundation.

Iisaak Olam strives to create ethical space by bringing together

two world views, Indigenous and Western knowledge systems. They’re

building capacity for First Nations to design programs that contribute

to the preservation of biological and cultural diversity, develop

sustainable and resilient communities, foster space for reconciliation

and reconnect people to the environment. Iisaak Olam has partnered with

Vancouver Island University to jointly develop an Indigenous-led

conservation program, the first of its kind in Canada.

When we discuss the future of old-growth forests here in our

province, it is vital that we support First Nations communities and

allow them to lead these discussions. Incorporating traditional

knowledge into our resource-based decision-making, informing innovative

agreements, allows the integration of ecological and cultural systems

where economic opportunities and the intrinsic value of our environment

are balanced.

I ask the House to join with me in celebrating Indigenous

leadership, the Iisaak Olam Foundation, Vancouver Island University and

the path of continued reconciliation.

INNOVATIVE SALMON HARVESTING

PROCESS AND USE BY FIRST

NATIONS

E. Ross: It’s difficult to pinpoint which area of impact should be a

priority in terms of saving salmon populations. You have habitat damage,

international and domestic overfishing, predation or even overabundance

of hatchery fish in relation to food in the ocean. But there is one

definite. As the world population grows, so does the demand for

seafood.

We do know that current methods of harvesting are efficient at

indiscriminately catching all types of fish, including endangered

species. Catch-and-release methods are questionable as to whether or not

the fish survives or is strong enough to continue the spawning process.

On top of this, marks and wounds from gillnets reduce the price for

restaurants who are now showcasing salmon and want their product clear

of scars.

Peter Krahn has developed a process that is catching the attention

of Fraser River and Skeena River First Nations who want to harvest

salmon for cultural and commercial purposes without harming non-targeted

salmon. It is incredibly simple and affordable and yet 99 percent

effective. It’s so effective that it is even possible to separate which

salmon came from the hatchery and which did not.

Anyone that understands salmon understands the value of data in

relation to understanding how much wild salmon are still left in our

Pacific waters. The Harrison Creek band will be the first to modify this

technology to suit their interests and use it on the Fraser

River.

By the way, the platform can be quickly converted to an oil spill

response platform to collect oil or petrochemicals. Considering the huge

amounts of oil travelling by train alongside the Fraser River, this will

be a way for local organizations to quickly mobilize in case of an oil

spill due to a train derailment.

[1:50 p.m.]

Oral Questions

AMBULANCE RESPONSE TIMES

S. Bond: A few weeks ago Allen May’s wife was in severe need of an

ambulance due to an attack of pancreatitis. This, unfortunately, had

happened before, and the doctor’s advice was to get to emergency

quickly.

The call for an ambulance was made, assurances were given, and,

after a 35-minute wait, a second call was made. Calls were being

assessed according to priority, the Surrey senior was told. It took more

than 9½ hours for the ambulance to finally arrive. And the sad

part is

that it’s not an uncommon occurrence.

To the Premier, can he tell us what immediate steps he is taking

to fix this problem so that people are not waiting for an ambulance for

9½ hours?

Hon. A. Dix: Thank you to the Leader of the Opposition for her question. Over

the last four years, the member will know, we’ve increased funding and

support for the Ambulance Service by more than 25 percent. Hundreds of

new positions have been created — 273 new positions filled since the

fall of 2020. Overall wait times for what are called purple and red

calls, the most serious calls, have come down in that period, and that

effort has been part of a provincial effort to improve the performance

of the ambulance system.

It is true that from time to time, there are significant delays in

calls in the ambulance system, and those are ones that we consistently

investigate. It’s also true that, for example, last week, on June 2, we

had the third-largest day of calls in the history of the Ambulance

Service, and those days present real challenge for ambulance

paramedics.

I think, in light of the two public health emergencies, our teams

and ambulance paramedics are doing an extraordinary job, and we will be

continuing to add resources and add staff to the Ambulance Service

because it is, as the member suggests by her question, when you need it,

as important a public service as any in the province.

Mr. Speaker: The Leader of the Official Opposition on a

supplemental.

S. Bond: Thank you very much to the Health Minister for that response, but

let’s be clear. This is becoming a much more frequent occurrence. Last

week a woman who had fallen at the Burnaby SkyTrain station broke her

hip and had to wait more than an hour for help to arrive. And the

frustration isn’t being directed at front-line workers. The anger is

being directed towards this provincial government.

Troy Clifford is the president of the union that represents

paramedics, and he lays the blame squarely on management by this

province. Here’s his quote: “It’s tragic when you see something like

that. Any time anybody has to wait when they’re in an emergency

situation, whether it’s critical or not, it’s a horrible experience. It

really is becoming, sadly, a norm.”

Once again to the Premier, what specific steps is he taking now to

fix this mess?

Hon. A. Dix: I think I answered the question in my first answer: since the fall

of last year, 283 new permanent paramedic positions. In this year, this

calendar year so far, 73 all over the province, increasing services to

British Columbians.

It is true that in the last week in particular, we’ve had an

enormous number of calls. It is true that the challenges facing our

ambulance paramedics in two public health emergencies are exceptional.

They put real pressure not just on the whole system but on individual

ambulance paramedics, who, in my view, are doing an outstanding job in

the circumstances.

We respond and investigate every complaint and concern about

individual calls. We do keep every day — and I’m happy to share these

with the hon. member — detailed information about responses to calls

across the province. On balance, because of the massive investment over

the last number of years — a 25 percent increase in the budget of the

Ambulance Service since I became Minister of Health — we have added

resources everywhere in the province.

[1:55 p.m.]

Is it perfect every day? Certainly not, and we are very concerned

when we hear stories such as the ones relayed by the hon. member, ones

that we, of course, are going to follow up, and I express my concern and

take responsibility for.

But what you have to say is that the performance of the B.C.

Ambulance Service, B.C. emergency health services, continues to be,

especially in this time, extraordinary, and I’m very proud of our

teams.

R. Merrifield: Well, I do agree with the minister that we do have two pandemics,

but we still need more paramedics.

Last week came another case, this time an accident victim in

Surrey waiting two hours for an ambulance. Rajan Maria was in a crash.

Firefighters used the Jaws of Life to gain access but didn’t want to

move her over concern of creating a spinal cord injury.

An ambulance was called. Everyone at the scene waited and waited

and waited some more. Finally, the family was so exhausted from concern,

they transported her to hospital on their own. That’s simply

unacceptable.

Residents literally crying out for help want to know: what is the

Premier going to do today to fix this mess and ensure that no one else

needlessly suffers?

Hon. A. Dix: What we’ve done not just today but every day since the Premier

became Premier was increase resources to the Ambulance Service. Imagine

where we would be today if we hadn’t increased those resources by 25

percent, if we hadn’t added hundreds of ambulance paramedic positions,

if we hadn’t added new ambulances and new resources to

communities.

Absolutely, the challenge facing our ambulance paramedics as

people — and we see this reflected in their challenges and the number of

people who have to be off work at times — is more challenging with two

public health emergencies that are facing our province.

Response times for purple and red calls, which are the most

serious calls, have come down. We continue to work with our union, with

the whole of the B.C. emergency health services, to make things

better.

The member asked what we’re doing. We’re hiring more people. We’re

delivering more ambulances. We’re improving services in rural

communities, and we’re adding dramatically to the budget compared to

where it was when I became Minister of Health in July of

Mr. Speaker: The member for Kelowna-Mission on a supplemental.

R. Merrifield: I’m glad that the minister brought up what the previous government

before the NDP actually did, because the NDP, 25 percent…. Well, we

actually added 170 percent. We didn’t just add hundreds of paramedics in

four years, we added 1,000.

Those words that were just heard by the minister are cold comfort

to the people and families who sit helplessly waiting for an ambulance.

It doesn’t provide any comfort to the front lines — the firefighters,

the police officers and the paramedics — who have to deal with

unacceptable delays.

Front-line workers have been raising the issue with the NDP

government for months, and it’s getting worse, not better. As one

paramedic put it: “The NDP Minister of Health and B.C. EHS need to be

held accountable for their lack of management and improper care in their

duty to help B.C. citizens. Who has to die for a change to

happen?”

When will the Premier take this seriously and provide the needed

resources to fix this mess before someone does die?

Hon. A. Dix: We take the concerns of people who deal with health services in

B.C. very seriously, as we do in the cases that have been raised in the

media that are being quoted by the official opposition today. But if the

opposition really wants to have a comparison of the investment in the

Ambulance Service over the last four years compared to previous, I would

be happy to have that discussion. In fact, I’m sure we will in our

upcoming estimates.

The fact of the matter is that in the period prior to us coming

into office, the ambulance paramedics and their union were so

disrespected that they weren’t even negotiated with as a union. That has

changed under our government. The 25 percent increase — 6.9 percent on

average over four years — in resources to the B.C. Ambulance Service and

the 283 positions I referred to are since the fall of 2020.

[2:00 p.m.]

I think it’s fair to say that the challenge facing the Ambulance

Service is unlike any that we’ve seen before. Our communities are more

difficult than they are, as always, to get around. They are difficult to

get around.

We’re seeing and we’ve seen, in the last week, very significant

and increased levels of calls. In consideration of that, it should be

noted that the substance is that the time we’ve taken for purple and red

calls has gone down, and the investment in the ambulance service is

extraordinary. It will have to continue to be, as we continue to meet

the needs of a growing province.

DEFERRAL OF OLD-GROWTH LOGGING

AND ROLE OF FIRST

NATIONS

A. Olsen: This morning there was some good news in Fairy Creek. Pacheedaht,

Ditidaht and Huu-ay-aht requested a two-year deferral for logging in the

Fairy Creek watershed, as well as in the central Walbran. However, today

I won’t be celebrating. Too many questions left to be answered,

questions that we’ll be watching very closely over the coming weeks to

see how this turns out.

Fairy Creek has become a flashpoint in this province. It’s a

symbol, a symbol of this government’s desire to continue to raze our

ancient forests. The announcement today was an announcement made by

First Nations, but we all know, in this province, that it was a result

of this B.C.’s government’s failed forestry policy to protect these

ecosystems across the province. What we’ve seen in Fairy Creek in recent

weeks and months simply cannot be the pathway to protecting these sacred

places.

To the Minster of Forests, will the minister commit to extensive

deferrals across British Columbia, in line with the government’s own

panel’s criteria and the mapping done by independent scientists, to

prevent what we’ve seen in Fairy Creek from happening again?

Hon. K. Conroy: Thank you to the member for the question.

The member knows that we all care about old growth. We all care

about it — all of us in the House, those across the province. The member

also knows that our government is working hard to ensure that we are

protecting old growth. We are fulfilling the recommendations on the

old-growth report. But I have to remind the member that the No. 1

recommendation was those critically important government-to-government

discussions with Indigenous nations. That’s exactly what’s

happened.

The government has been having those confidential

government-to-government discussions with the nations, and we are…. The

member has spoken of the results. We’ve received the request from the

Chiefs of the Pacheedaht, the Ditidaht and the Huu-ay-aht First Nations,

and we honour their declaration and are pleased to continue those

respectful discussions with the nations because we are

committed.

We are committed to reconciliation, and true reconciliation means

meaningful partnerships, so we are moving forward with deferrals. We

will have more news in the coming days, and we will have more deferrals

this summer.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Saanich North and the Islands on a

supplemental.

A. Olsen: This member knows that that government wants to cut the old

growth. That’s what they’ve demonstrated over the last number of months

and years that we’ve been asking this question.

This member knows that this government’s also been using the

UNDRIP as a shield, putting Indigenous nations out in front in between

the protests and failed forestry policy. This member knows that this

government has been signing agreements over the last two years, three

years — most recently, a whole bunch that have been signed in 2021 —

further making this situation of protecting old growth more

difficult.

Anybody who has been paying attention to forestry in this province

is able to see it. I’m glad that there is temporary reprieve in Fairy

Creek, but it’s a painful way to achieve it, an exceptionally painful

way, which we’ve been feeling, day in and day out, as Indigenous people

have been put in the middle of this.

Logging corporations and British Columbia in government are

logging these at-risk forests in our province. I hear there are cut

blocks available going up in the Nahmint for auction. The minister is in

her message box, talking about hereditary and doing the work. Kwakiutl

Hereditary Chief David Knox, saying that they’ve been wanting this

Premier to meet with them. Silence. Hereditary Chiefs in the Gitxsan are

trying to restrict access to their territory.

[2:05 p.m.]

Those measures have been removed. This government, like the

provincial governments of the past, is using Indigenous people as a

scapegoat. I can say it because I know how it feels. I know how it

smells. I know how it tastes. This is the life that I’ve

lived.

To the Minister of Forests, the co-chair of her own strategic

review panel said that if this continues, we are going to see “Fairy

Creeks happen all the time.”

My question is to the Minister of Forests. What is she doing today

to defer logging in old-growth stands across British Columbia to ensure

that the situation that we’ve seen in Fairy Creek doesn’t happen again

in our forests?

Hon. K. Conroy: I understand the member’s passion, but we are working and we are

doing the work to ensure that we are protecting ancient

forests.

Our government has received several requests from First Nations to

implement further deferrals. We have responded to all of the incoming

requests, and we are committed to working with the nations. Some of

those conversations are already underway. Engaging with First Nations on

old-growth was the No. 1 recommendation, and we will continue to ensure

that that happens, because that’s what we’re doing. We are having those

discussions with the rights and title holders.

And I will remind the member that there is something else that the

co-author of the report also said. He said: “I know that the government

is working on all of the priority recommendations. It won’t happen

overnight.” He goes on to say: “I’ve said this before. We’ve lived in

this paradigm for almost 200 years in this province, now, and our whole

culture is centred around this. It’s going to change. It’s just a matter

of how fast we can make the change and how we can manage the

transition.”

We are doing just that. We are ensuring that we do this properly.

The worst thing we could do is rush these critical decisions, rush these

discussions, without ensuring that we’re doing it properly, listening,

working and having those discussions with the Indigenous nations, but

also bringing in other people who this is critically important to: the

communities that are affected, the workers who are affected and, of

course, the companies that are affected.

We need to ensure that we have those discussions. We know that we

are also reaching out to environmentalists, because we have to bring

everyone to the table. That is the way we are going to ensure that we

protect these ancient forests.

COVID-19 RELIEF GRANT ELIGIBILITY

FOR ROYAL CANADIAN

LEGION BRANCHES

AND ANAVETS CLUB

B. Banman: Well, it would seem that the Premier has a problem admitting when

he’s made a mistake. For weeks, he refused to provide veteran groups

like the legions, the army, navy and air force clubs access to the

circuit breaker funding, even though those veteran groups were

experiencing all the same problems as the other hospitality groups.

Finally — finally — he caved. Yet, he managed to botch and bungle it

once again. There was now funding for the legion, but none for the

ANAVETS. There were only two groups — two groups to remember, to get

this right.

Will the Premier stand up today and do the right thing and provide

ANAVETS with the respect they deserve and ensure they have the same

access to the funds as the legions?

Hon. R. Kahlon: As we’ve canvassed this topic already, I’ll share the answer with

the member.

The Royal Canadian Legion wrote to the government expressing

concern that they also need financial supports. We reached out to the

federal ministry of Veterans Affairs and discussed with them about the

need for financial supports to be provided by them. They notified us

that they have given $9,000 to every single association here in British

Columbia to support them.

We also included an additional $10,000 for the 145 branches of the

Royal Canadian Legion who wrote to us, of course, asking for the

supports. Since then, I’ve spoken to the federal ministry of Veterans

Affairs about them — to need to match our dollars to ensure that more

organizations can get the dollars. Those conversations are

ongoing.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Abbotsford South on a supplemental.

B. Banman: It’s just astounding how difficult it is to get to a

yes.

[2:10 p.m.]

But anyway, here we are, the day after the anniversary of D-Day,

and the Premier still has no concern for the army and navy veterans

organizations who need funding now. They’re not asking for special

rights. They’re asking for what they deserve. They’re asking for the

same funding that the legions rightfully qualify for.

Here’s a question from the provincial command of the ANAVETS.

“Could you please explain why the oldest veterans organization in Canada

was excluded from this? I find it not only unfair but so disrespectful

to our organization and all of our members.”

Now, the minister can come up with all of the answers that he

wants, but I noticed in that he did not call reaching out to the

ANAVETS. How would he or the Premier respond to the ANAVETS? Will this

Premier give them the money they need?

Hon. R. Kahlon: Again, I’ve highlighted this already for the member, and I’ll do

it again. We’ve reached out to the federal ministry of Veterans Affairs,

who is responsible for providing financial supports to all our veterans’

organizations. They have notified us that they provided $9,000 for every

association in the province. We’ve let them know that we’ve put in an

additional $1.5 million, and we expect them to come to the table for

additional dollars.

There are a lot of organizations in this province that need

supports. We’re proud of the supports we’ve been able to put in place.

We’re going to continue to do that good work to support as many

organizations as we can.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members.

ANCHOR ATTRACTIONS PROGRAM

AND COVID-19 RESPONSE

FOR TOURISM INDUSTRY

L. Doerkson: It is deadline day today in British Columbia. The deadline to

apply for anchor attraction funding is today. But the IPE fair in

Armstrong is still excluded. When they went to apply for funding, the

IPE discovered that you have to first call to request an application,

which you will receive if the ministry believes that you might qualify.

They are saying that the program is “convoluted and lacks transparency.”

Many attractions in B.C. are now discovering, on the deadline day of

funding, that the Premier has bungled yet another program.

Why is the Premier using such a convoluted application system for

this anchor attraction funding? Please answer the question.

Hon. M. Mark: A couple of weeks ago the Premier and I announced $50 million in

grants, not loans. It is targeted funding to assist anchor attractions

in the Lower Mainland and rural communities and tourism

operators.

The ministry fully disclosed the eligibility criteria on the

website. There have been, so far, 84 completed applications within the

hands of the ministry, and they’re going to review the applications.

That is transparency. This is a call to action from the Tourism Task

Force, from the industry, saying that we need this relief. It’s $50

million in a grant, not a loan.

The ministry is going to decide, based on the criteria that was

fully transparent to the public, how it’s going to help really

much-needed anchor attractions all across B.C., because as the restart

continues, people are going to get outside and play, and we’re going to

need those attractions more than ever.

APPLICATION OF

FREEDOM-OF-INFORMATION LEGISLATION

TO I n BC INVESTMENT CORP.

T. Stone: Well, the Premier wants to spend half a billion dollars of

taxpayers’ money through his InBC high-risk venture capital scheme.

Taxpayers have a right to transparency. They have a right to know how

their half-billion dollars is being spent and what the risks involved

are. But the Premier doesn’t want British Columbians to know. He doesn’t

want taxpayers to have access to InBC’s business plan or investment

impact scorecards, and he’s refusing to make InBC subject to freedom of

information.

My question is this. With half a billion dollars of public funds

at risk, will the Premier direct his Minister of Citizens’ Services to

immediately subject this high-risk venture capital scheme to

FOI?

Hon. R. Kahlon: Again, we’ve canvassed this question many times in the House, so

let me share with the member again. When the opposition now…. When they

were in government, they created the Immigrant Investment Fund. At that

time, no business plan was released. In fact, they precluded them from

FOI.

[2:15 p.m.]

In fact, the member from Kelowna who then was the minister wrote

that, in fact, public transparency is achieved through operational

reporting under the BCIIF annual report. That was his response as to why

they left FOI out.

They were told at that time that it would potentially have a

chilling effect for investments. They chose to leave it out for that

reason, and they clearly articulated that the annual report was

sufficient. So not only did they not have the FOIs, they didn’t release

a business plan at all. They didn’t release a business plan for the tech

fund either.

The hon. member can continue to ask these questions, but we’re

doing the due diligence to continue to engage with the business

community, the venture capital community about the fund and hear their

concerns, and we’ll make decisions accordingly.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Kamloops–South Thompson on a

supplemental.

T. Stone: Well, there’s less transparency with the Premier’s high-risk

venture capital scheme than there was with Bernie Madoff’s Ponzi scheme.

That’s the reality. For the minister to stand up and continuously

compare InBC to the B.C. Immigrant Investment Fund is frankly

ridiculous, and he should know it.

InBC is the Premier’s high-risk venture capital scheme that

involves half a billion dollars of taxpayer funds. The B.C. Immigrant

Investment Fund involved — wait for it — private funds. But don’t take

my word for it. It was actually last week that the Minister of Citizens’

Services said the source of the B.C. Immigrant Investment Fund is “not

taxpayer funds, but, rather, sourced from immigrant investors through a

federal program.”

It’s time for this government to provide the transparency that

taxpayers expect and deserve. When will the Premier do that and make

sure that InBC is subject to the freedom-of-information legislation in

this province?

Hon. R. Kahlon: It gives me an opportunity to talk about how proud we are of InBC

here on this side of this House. Half a billion dollars. The member from

opposite calls the fact that this fund has triple bottom line…. He calls

it strings attached. Imagine that.

Imagine having an investment fund that supports B.C. companies —

not companies in other jurisdictions, B.C. companies — that are helping

people, planet and profit. That is not strings attached. That’s helping

drive the growth that we want to see here in this province.

It’s tilting the field to ensure that we get green, clean economic

growth for this province, modelled off of Denmark, modelled off of

Ireland, modelled off of Singapore.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members, listen to the answer please.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Jurisdictions all over the world that are leading in innovation

are using this similar style of funding. We’re proud of this fund. This

is going to help drive economic growth in this province, and one day

that member will stand up and talk about how great this fund was for

this province.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Kamloops–South Thompson, another

supplemental.

T. Stone: Well, while the minister is applying for the lead role in the

sequel to The Big Short , he might want to know or be reminded

of the fact that the Information and Privacy Commissioner has sounded

the alarm on InBC, making it clear that none of the government’s excuses

for refusing to subject InBC to FOI are valid. None of them are

valid.

The minister can stand here, and he can talk about how proud he

is. Well, only he would be proud of not providing the business plan for

a $500 million high-risk venture capital scheme — providing access to

that business plan to British Columbians. Only he would be proud of

that.

Only he would be proud of saying to British Columbians: “No, you

don’t have a right to look at the impact investment score cards that are

used to rate each investment.” Only this minister seems to be willing to

stand up and say: “I’m proud of the fact that we’re not going to subject

any of the above to freedom of information.”

It’s unfair to the people of British Columbia, who deserve

transparency again on a half-billion-dollar high-risk investment

fund.

Again to the Premier, will he fix his transparency problem when it

comes to InBC? Will he subject InBC to freedom-of-information

legislation? Therefore, will he allow British Columbians to have the

access that they deserve to the information pertaining to a half-billion

dollars of their money, public money, that will be used in this

high-risk scheme?

[2:20 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I appreciate the member has a PhD in FOI laws in this province,

giving us lectures on how FOI should be done given his experience in the

triple-delete scandal. But that’s okay. We’ll continue to humour him and

his suggestions.

I just had a letter written to me last week from the Canadian

Venture Capital and Private Equity Association. Their recommendation is

that the government refrain from adding InBC as a public body under the

Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act. Subjecting InBC to

FIPPA raises a potential chilling effect for InBC in regard to securing

such investments and hinders InBC from attracting investment partners,

both domestic and international, which in turn undermines the

fundamental objectives behind this public investment.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Members. Order. Members, a question was asked. Now is the time for

an answer.

The minister will continue.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Thank you, hon. Speaker.

This is the Canadian Venture Capital and Private Equity

Association. There are more letters coming to me. We continue to engage

with all the partners around this. Again, I’ll highlight to all the

members that this is a historic half-billion-dollar investment which

will help drive economic growth here in this province. We’re very proud

of it. It’s going to do big things.

[End of question period.]

Orders of the Day

Hon. M. Farnworth: In this chamber, I call budget estimates for the Ministry of Jobs,

Economic Recovery and Innovation. In the Douglas Fir Room, I call the estimates

for the Ministry of Attorney General and, in the Birch Room, the estimates for

the Ministry of Agriculture.

[2:25 p.m.]

Committee of Supply

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF

JOBS, ECONOMIC RECOVERY

AND

INNOVATION

The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); N. Letnick in the

chair.

The Chair: The committee will recess for five minutes.

The committee recessed from 2:26 p.m. to 2:31 p.m.

[N. Letnick in the chair.]

On Vote 35: ministry operations, $78,648,000.

The Chair: Minister, would you like to make an opening

comment?

Hon. R. Kahlon: Yes. It’s a pleasure to be here this afternoon.

I’ll start off by acknowledging that I’m here today speaking on

the traditional territory of the Lək̓ʷəŋin̓əŋ-speaking people, the

Songhees and Esquimalt Nations.

Just to say that it’s been an incredibly hard 15 months for all

British Columbians. Everyone has lost something. Some people have,

unfortunately, lost loved ones. Some have lost opportunities. I think of

the young people in my life who’ve missed important milestones. Many

businesses have struggled as well.

I’m really proud of the amazing work that has been done by the

people within my ministry under very difficult and extreme situations,

putting together programs in very small windows, listening, working hard

to adapt and making sure that programs are flexible so that people and

businesses can get the supports they need. I’m really appreciative of

their work, and it’s a real honour to work alongside all of them. Many

of them are watching right now from another room.

Here I’m joined by Bobbi Plecas, who is my deputy minister. She

leads the incredible team doing all this amazing work. Our executive

team is joining us virtually. We have James Harvey, who is the associate

deputy minister of investment and innovation. We have Jeff Vasey, who is

assistant deputy minister of mass timber implementation. Angelo Cocco is

acting assistant deputy minister of small businesses and economic

development. Elizabeth Vickery is executive director of small business,

economic development and innovation division.

Nathan Nankivell is

executive director of the planning and innovation branch. Tim Lesiuk is

executive director of economic coordination. Selena Basi is the

assistant deputy minister of trade and industry development. And we have

Joanna White, assistant deputy minister and executive financial officer

for management services.

Of course, we also have two Crown corporations with CEOs that are

joining us right now. We have Michael Loseth, who’s the CEO of Forestry

Innovation Investment, who does excellent work. I really appreciated the

time that we spent engaging with stakeholders on mass timber–related

initiatives. And of course we have Innovate B.C.’s CEO, Raghwa Gopal,

who also is joining us online. I really appreciate him joining

us.

I look forward to hearing the questions and, hopefully, providing

some of the answers to the hon. member.

[2:35 p.m.]

T. Stone: I, too, would like to begin by first acknowledging that I’m on the

traditional territory of the Lək̓ʷəŋin̓əŋ peoples, the Songhees and

Esquimalt Nations.

I also echo the minister’s comments about the hard work that goes

on in the ministry. It’s led by a very able deputy minister in Bobbi

Plecas and, I think, a tremendous array of talented people. So I expect

short, snappy, quick answers from the minister in response, considering

he has a battery of people around him.

Now we’ll get into this. We’re going to spend a little bit of time

together over the next number of days. In all seriousness, economic

recovery, jobs, so much of what is covered in this ministry is so vital

to the lives of every British Columbian, increasingly so as we move

forward. I think we’re all grateful that the vaccination rollout plan is

chugging along. The numbers are promising, both with the vaccination but

also with the COVID numbers in and of themselves.

But as we move through the health aspect of this pandemic, the

focus will increasingly shift to the economic impacts of this pandemic.

That’s why I think so much of what we’re going to canvass and talk about

and debate, likely over the next number of days, is really important to

most British Columbians out there.

For the benefit of the two Crown corps, the Forest Innovation

Investment corp. and Innovate B.C., it’s not likely we’re going to get

to questions with those two Crown corps today. Recognizing the important

work they do, I’ll leave that in their court.

We’re going to start with economic recovery, and we’ll just

methodically go from there. The economic recovery plan that the

government launched recently, B.C.’s restart 2.0 plan, was, I think,

appreciated in that it finally appeared. It was appreciated because it

did provide a road map that British Columbians were yearning for. I

think British Columbians were looking at neighbouring jurisdictions and

jurisdictions in many other parts of North America, particularly Canada,

that were beginning to roll out restart plans.

We were wondering when we were going to see one here in British

Columbia. We finally did see one through restart 2.0. But obviously,

once it’s out there and there’s time for people to really digest it and

try to make sense of it, both individuals and also businesses,

especially small businesses…. There’s a lot of really important

questions that I think are critical to be canvassed here.

The first sort of theme that I would like to begin with would be

this. I’m curious to know what the minister’s role was in really shaping

the 2.0 restart plan. I ask that because it’s largely a plan that’s

focused on…. If certain health measures are achieved — vaccination

levels, COVID numbers and so forth — as determined by or as confirmed by

the provincial health officer, then there are certain things that can

happen in terms of reopening.

I’m wondering if the minister could provide a detailed

summary of

what his role has been in helping to shape this restart 2.0?

[2:40 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: The member wanted snappy answers, so I’ll try to give him a snappy

answer.

We created an industry engagement table pretty early in my

mandate, which brought together all the Crown corporations,

representation from First Nations, labour, Crown corporations, where we

met every three, four weeks to hear about concerns from different

sectors, creating space for everyone to share their concerns at one

table so everyone’s hearing the same answers.

It was very important, I think, for our recovery to have that

space for everyone to share their thoughts. When we thought about the

restart plan, we knew it was going to be an all-of-government approach,

and our ministry provided the capacity to bring concerns from various

ministries to the table. Our staff worked with PHO on, obviously, them

deciding the metrics that they felt were appropriate to go from phases.

So we played a coordinating role within government to work with PHO on

what that restart can look like.

It was welcome news. I think almost every association we spoke to

welcomed it. They appreciated the detail and the thoughtfulness in the

metrics, of course, and were really appreciative of Dr. Henry and all

the PHO team for the amazing work that they’ve done throughout the

pandemic, but in particular for helping us, working with us to shape

this so that we could make it bring some certainty to both the public as

well as the business community during what is a really uncertain

time.

T. Stone: I’m wondering if the minister could advise the House as to when

the consultations on the restart plan that’s now out in the public

domain will occur. There were some pretty strong statements made by both

the Premier and the minister on May 25, the date that B.C. restart 2.0

was launched. The Premier said: “As we leave this briefing today,

ministers from across government will be reaching out to their

stakeholders to talk to them about what we can do to help them reduce

barriers to get back into the place we were back at the beginning of

2020.” That was the Premier.

The minister said, on Global , on May 28: “The real

challenges will be faced in the coming weeks. We will have to assess and

consult with our sector partners on real challenges they are facing and

then what potential solutions may be.”

[2:45 p.m.]

I appreciate his initial response that related to the role that he

indicates he played in shaping the restart plan. I’m curious to now

understand what that consultation is going to look like, as per his

comments and the Premier’s comments, with sector associations, First

Nations, local government leaders, British Columbians generally, moving

forward.

The Chair: While we’re waiting for the next short and snappy answer, I’d

like to remind all members present that according to the guide of

hybrid proceedings, we’re supposed to wear our masks, unless we have

the floor or are drinking water. Thank you, Members.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Hon. Speaker, thank you for keeping everybody on track in

here.

A couple of things. I’m not sure if the member was asking about

the Industry Engagement Table meetings, but I’ll just say that we have,

this year alone, met eight times so far. We have a dedicated ADM within

our ministry that is working with someone dedicated from PHO on ensuring

that all the consultation, all the feedback is being put together,

working with WorkSafe on updating the safety plans and also working with

all the constituency offices.

All the MLA offices have been writing in

questions that they’re getting from constituents or businesses in their

communities, and they’re helping to coordinate all of that with PHO to

get the appropriate answers so that all the MLAs are serving their

constituents in a good way.

T. Stone: I guess what I want to understand is, as per the B.C. restart

plan…. It clearly indicates that consultations on the reopening won’t

begin until after this House has risen. I’m trying to understand why

that would be the case. I understand that there’s an industry table, and

there have been discussions going on. But in terms of that ongoing,

rapid recycle of issues and concerns, sector by sector — from a business

perspective, first and foremost, but also from all of the others that

are engaged in this industry round table — why wait until after we’ve

risen from this place, which is the end of next week?

I believe the date that is referred to in the B.C. restart plan is

June 15. It says that consultation with sector associations begins on

June 15 for next steps on easing restrictions. That’s on the ministry’s

website as well. So again, why wait till June 15? Why not get on with

those consultations now?

[2:50 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Maybe I wasn’t clear enough in my answer. The industry engagement

has been going all the way through since the restart was planned. We

have over 15 tables created. Every ministry is out engaging. My ministry

has got some tables, Tourism, and the list goes on.

The press release talks about general guidance being released on

June 15, or slightly before, around updated safety plans for phase 2, if

we were going to get to phase 2. They’re generally saying that

around that date is when they’ll announce what the next phase will look

like. Conversations aren’t just about, you know, “Let’s have a

discussion about what phase 2 looks like, and then let’s talk about

phase 3 after.” All those conversations are happening

simultaneously.

T. Stone: Again, in the context of the economic recovery restart plan, the

minister has made some public comments about there being concerns that

have been expressed to him that he shares, specifically small businesses

like restaurants, for example, that are pleased that there is a

schedule

in place now for reopening — again, if certain metrics are

achieved.

These restaurants are starting to call employees back. They’re

starting to reach back out to employees that have worked for them for

many years — only to, in many cases, be advised that the employees are

no longer available. Or they have decided to go and work somewhere else,

or for a variety of reasons, they’re choosing not to go back to work

with that particular employer.

The theme that’s developing here, in small business circles, is

one of a labour shortage. The inability to, ironically, keep their

businesses open in the not-too-distant future, or at least the worry of

this happening, is very prevalent and growing with these folks — not

being able to keep their businesses open, not because of restrictive

health measures that are in place anymore, but because they can’t get

the employees that they need in order to open up their establishments

and to serve their customers.

Just to add a little bit of context to this, with one of his own

quotes, the minister, on CFAX, said — this was on May 26:

“I think there’s going to be some pressure on minimum wages and

seeing a rise in pressure for some of those small businesses and just

having people. In a broader sense, it’s a good challenge to have — that

we need more people — because the economy is firing up. But I appreciate

that it’s been challenging for many businesses that are trying to get

the basic staff so that they can operate their business.”

I’m just wondering if — for the minister, as part of his

consultations, the industry table that he has and the ongoing work that

he says is underway in his ministry — this particular theme of a growing

labour shortage amongst small businesses is something that he’s got a

plan for. If so, what is his plan to address this particular concern of

small business?

[2:55 p.m.]

The Chair: Just a reminder to members about masks once again.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Hon. Chair, for the record, I was wearing my mask. I know you

weren’t referring to me, but thank you for that.

I appreciate the question. There are a couple things. One is that

we haven’t heard this commentary from all sectors. We’ve heard from some

restaurants that there have been some challenges. We’ve heard from many

other businesses that say it’s not a challenge, that they were able to

get their employees without any issues. Some in the tourism industry

said they were surprised that they were able to get many of their

employees back. So it is mixed, what we’re hearing right now. But

certainly the restaurant industry has raised some of those potential

challenges.

I think there’s also some fear amongst workers, as well, that

we’re hearing. Although the restart plan is, I think, very thoughtful

and cautious in how we open the economy up, there is a sense from those,

certainly, that have been away from work for a while for various reasons

— a bit of fear to get back and be in places where there are a lot of

people. Certainly, even I feel sometimes a little anxiousness at seeing

images of people gathering. There is a bit of that. I think over time,

as we start gradually opening up, as vaccinations go up and cases go

down, we’ll see more people enter the workforce.

There are other things that we’re doing. This is why we have a

Minister of State for Child Care. This is why we’ve made child care such

a major focus for us as a government. We’ve dedicated a minister for

this work and invested over $1 billion in the last few years just in

child care, for child care spaces. We know that it disproportionately

helps women get back into the workforce. So those investments are

economic; they’re not just social. That’s why we’re going to continue to

make investments to create more opportunities and more space for people

to get back into the workforce.

We’re also a part of StrongerBC. Our recovery plan had

considerable dollars for training, for reskilling and upskilling

workers. That’s certainly a priority for government. We’re going to

continue to put a focus there, and the minimum wage helps. As the

minimum wage goes up, it entices more people to come back to the

workforce. Those are some of the things that we’re already doing, and of

course, there will be more things as we move forward.

T. Stone: While I appreciate that, I don’t think we should get too carried

away about child care in terms of the minister using that as something

that government is focusing on and doing a good job with.

[3:00 p.m.]

There are pretty good messaging, marketing, statements,

commitments and promises that have been made on child care. I would

remind the minister that the NDP promised to deliver 24,000 child care

spaces. Only 6,000 spaces have actually been opened to date. That’s four

years into this government’s mandate. So 12,500 spaces are several years

out from being created. Only a very small fraction of these spaces are

the $10-a-day daycare which was promised by the government, and

virtually all of those $10-a-day spaces are actually funded with federal

dollars. So let’s be focused on what the actual facts are.

I will acknowledge that child care is a challenge for a heck of a

lot of people. It is a challenge in terms of not enough spaces close to

where people live. It’s a challenge in terms of the affordability factor

and people not being able to get their kids into spaces because they

still can’t afford it, because they’re not one of the chosen small group

of people that the federal government has funded with $10-a-day

daycare.

It’s also a function of a shortage of early childhood educators.

You can have the spaces, and you can actually have some affordability

mechanisms wrapped around them, but if you don’t have the educators in

the classroom to actually teach the kids, it’s all going to fall apart.

More has to be done on that front. I acknowledge that. And I do

acknowledge that there are some individuals that likely are unable, for

the reasons of not being able to access child care for their kids that

works for their family…. I acknowledge that these individuals, these

parents may have challenges getting back into the workforce, going back

to their former place of employment.

What I would like to know is, from the minister’s perspective…. He

mentioned restaurants. We’re hearing about the same concern within the

restaurant sector, for certain, but lots of correspondence is coming in

from many other sectors. I would appreciate if the minister could advise

this House if he is hearing from other sectors and, if so, which other

sectors he is hearing from on, again, this specific issue relating to:

“Great, we’re able to open up our business. Now we’re able to, shortly,

on the horizon, but we don’t have the employees to do it because we

can’t get them all to come back, for a variety of reasons.”

Which other sectors is the minister hearing this from? Beyond the

restaurant sector, can he inform us where these concerns are actually

coming from, from his perspective? If I’m getting the correspondence,

he’s getting the correspondence as well.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Before I jump into the answer, I’ll just again have to correct the

member. There are 26,000 new child care spaces that have been created in

this province since July 2018, with 313 just in my community.

Perhaps

the member doesn’t have all the details, and perhaps he’ll want to raise

that in estimates so he can get details of how many child care spaces

are in his community. If he doesn’t know, he may want to celebrate that

as well. I know that families are saving up to $1,600. That’s a

considerable savings for families.

Interjection.

Hon. R. Kahlon: The member further away says that he’s got some questions as well,

so I look forward to his questions on whatever topic he has.

Just to his question, I think it’s important to highlight that we

have 99 percent pre-pandemic employment levels. That’s quite

extraordinary. It’s quite extraordinary, the strength of, the resilience

of our B.C. economy. It shows that the highest per-capita supports for

people and businesses that we have here in British Columbia are making a

difference to keep employment levels at that level.

I appreciate that the members talked about some of the challenges

that are faced by some folks in the restaurant industry. That’s what

we’ve heard directly. Our ministry staff haven’t heard from any other

sectors that are facing major pressures yet. I’ve heard from some in the

tourism sector that have expressed some concerns to me on a personal

level.

[3:05 p.m.]

Again, it’s early days. The restart plan was announced just over a

week ago, and people are still a little anxious and a little nervous

about coming back into the workforce. We’ll have to see over the coming

weeks how that plays out as we move to, hopefully, further

restarts.

T. Stone: Again, on the child care front, the minister says the promised

number is 26,000. Well, I maintain that the data that we have been

provided shows that only 6,000 have been opened to date, in four years —

6,000 out of 26,000. They’ve got a long way to go in fulfilling their

commitment there.

I also find it interesting that the minister didn’t bite on the

$10-a-day daycare, didn’t make any mention of that whatsoever. Maybe

that has something to do with the fact that despite promising it many

times, it’s not contained anywhere in the most recent provincial budget.

It’s not there. There’s no mention of $10-a-day daycare. You will not

find those words in the provincial budget. Government quietly pulled

that out.

Instead, the minister of child care now refers to “alternative

funding models.” Alternative funding model, $10-a-day daycare. It

doesn’t sound like both refer to a universally affordable model at the

$10 level, does it? But I’ll move on from the child care, aside from

just reinforcing one more time that this is a critical challenge that

many face, so more needs to be done on this front.

Government needs to step up and actually put action behind its

words on child care so that parents around the province — in his

community, mine and elsewhere — aren’t just relying on government news

releases and marketing, essentially, around this but are actually able

to get the good news that there are now spaces open, that you can

actually get living, breathing people into these spaces. That’s what we

need to see, and that’ll be a significant help to a lot of parents that

are perhaps struggling to get into the workforce.

Just before we move on to the next topic, one last piece on this

concern that is being raised by, again, a lot of restaurants. We’re

hearing from a lot of tourism organizations or tourism businesses and

organizations, as well, and other sectors related to this labour

shortage piece.

I’m just wondering. Obviously, the minister has spent a fair bit

of time already today talking about the industry round table and the

engagement that’s been underway and so forth. Surely that would suggest,

therefore, that the minister is working on some potential solutions,

actually crafting some options — or at least the staff in his ministry

would be doing that work to provide the minister with some options — to

bring forward to address this challenge if the challenge actually

continues to escalate and becomes a really widespread, deeply rooted

problem.

Can the minister advise what options his ministry staff have

provided him? What solutions is he working on or considering to address

a labour shortage which is very real in some sectors and getting worse

and could become a problem in some other sectors?

[3:10 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Again, I think there are a few things there. Minimum wage, I

think, will help. I think one of the things…. Longer hours are going to

help as well, because we know that…. We’ve been hearing, certainly, from

the restaurant industry that having hours later in the day both allows

for some workers to pick up a shift in the evening but also makes it

more financially worthwhile for folks to come in and actually work. So

that’s been recognized as an opportunity.

We’ve been working for months. In fact, StrongerBC, part of our

economic recovery, was considerable dollars for training and retraining

through AEST.

Of course, child care does play an important role. Again, I know

we’ll probably want to leave it to move on, but I just have to say the

member’s numbers are not correct. The 26,000 spaces, even on his

numbers, the 6,000…. I mean, I’ll have to go to my community and tell

them that we’re only getting 6 percent of all of the child care spaces

of the province, using his numbers. I know it’s probably slightly lower,

because the numbers are 26,000. A considerable amount of emails all our

MLAs get about how important the savings they are feeling — how

important those are to the pocketbooks of so many families.

So a whole host of measures. But again, we know there’s still some

fear amongst workers. We’re hearing that. Many of us still feel some of

those fears around being in public spaces. It’s going to take a little

bit of time for some of those that have re-entered the workforce. We’re

going to continue to monitor this in the coming weeks.

It’s quite an interesting challenge compared to other

jurisdictions in the country and parts of the world that we have 99

percent employment levels. But again, we’re going to work with our

industry partners on what the challenges may be as we go forward and

work with them on training and other things to help address

that.

T. Stone: Again, maybe we’ll get an opportunity to come back to child care

at some other point over the next few days. I think we agree on the

numbers. What we’re saying over here is the promises that were made are

not being kept. The promises are not being delivered in the form of

actual spaces that are opening up, and it’s been four years, and I

noticed again that the minister didn’t reference $10-a-day

daycare.

[3:15 p.m.]

Well, let me ask him: is $10-a-day daycare still in the

government’s priorities and plans moving forward? Where can I find it in

his mandate letter, in his operational plan, in any aspect of the

restart plan? That is probably the more likely place that we would find

it.

If it’s truly a barrier, which I think we all agree it is, to

people getting back in the workforce — the affordability factor….

Perhaps the minister can point to where British Columbians can actually

see that the universal $10-a-day daycare is still a priority of this

government.

Hon. R. Kahlon: I’m glad we agree that there are economic barriers involved by not

having child care spaces, and 26,000 is a significant amount. Having a

Minister of State for Child Care, which the member, of course, can take

up in estimates to go into greater details on this question….

But I do know that when I was first elected as MLA in 2017, we had

a conversation in our community, and no one had an inventory of how many

child care spaces even existed. That’s how much of a disarray the system

was in. It wasn’t even a priority that no one even had a centralized

system. We funded UBCM to create tables across the province to bring all

stakeholders together so we could do a correct inventory and then figure

out a strategy, going forward, and we’ve done that in Delta.

Again, 313 new spaces in the last couple of years is significant.

I have community constituents or people in my community who have

messaged me on several occasions about how much they appreciate the cost

savings. Of course, I know there are a lot of topic areas that we want

to cover in the 15, 16 hours, whatever we have, in this debate. But I’ll

leave the rest of the child care questions for the member to take up

with the Minister of State for Child Care.

T. Stone: I do want to ask a couple more questions here. The first would be

this: does the minister think that the failure of his government to meet

its child care targets will impact job recovery in British

Columbia?

Hon. R. Kahlon: For anyone that thought that child care was social spending and

not a part of the economy, I think this pandemic has shown clearly that

it’s critically important for the economy. Certainly, when we saw

schools and daycares close, we saw that impact disproportionately on

women.

The member is wondering if this is a priority for us, going

forward. It certainly is. There was no minister of state, there was no

minister, and there was no parliamentary secretary for child care. It

was very rarely talked about. I do appreciate the new interest. I do

appreciate now that everyone is talking about child care.

Again, we’re leaders in this space. We’re also happy that the

federal government has now expressed interest to be involved. It means

we’ll be able to do a lot more. We’re going to continue to do that good

work. And I’m really proud of the Minister of State for Child Care, who

puts so much passion and love into this critical work. It’s going to be

important for us as an economy, going forward.

T. Stone: Well, let me just say this one more time. The government has

opened 6,000 spaces, to date, in four years and has plans to open up

12,500 more. And 7,500 of those numbers have no timeline associated with

them. These were commitments that were made four years ago.

[3:20 p.m.]

So the point that we’re making is that the government is falling

far, far short both in the total number and the timeline of delivery of

these child care spaces. I don’t question the passion of the Minister of

State for Child Care at all, as the minister says. I do question her

track record in actually delivering results, because what the NDP said

was going to happen on these spaces has not happened. And it’s not just

me saying that.

The Minister of State for Child Care said: “…we’ve supported the

creation of…26,000 spaces, with…6,000 spaces that have already been

opened and another 12,500 to come in the coming years.” But again, 7,500

of those spaces have no timelines attached to them. We’re pressing in on

four years that this government has been in power — two terms, two

elections.

Likewise on the $10-a-day daycare side of things. The

commitment was universal $10-a-day daycare. It wasn’t a small pilot of

$10-a-day daycare spaces for a few hundred people here and there across

the province in different communities, if they were lucky — by some

lottery, I suppose — to be selected to participate in a pilot. The

commitment was British Columbians will have $10-a-day daycare,

universally.

The minister of state is now saying or making comments like this:

“…the different funding model is definitely being taken into

consideration….” That was on June 2 in Hansard . Another quote

from the minister of state on that date: “…we’re doing a small pilot

site, like the $10-a-day prototype site…” — it’s a prototype site — and

also looking at “other ways of funding child care as well.” That’s the

Minister of State for Child Care.

So it would appear that the government has completely dropped its

commitment to universal $10-a-day daycare, looking for alternative

funding mechanisms. All the while, the total number of spaces that it

promised to create within the timelines that it promised are not being

fulfilled either.

In light of the fact that the minister has acknowledged, moments

ago — we agree on this point — that access to affordable child care

across British Columbia is an economic imperative for success — for

success of families, for success of communities, for success of the

economy…. In light of that economic imperative, how is it that the

minister feels that we will actually achieve a full economic recovery in

this province that is equitable if his government doesn’t actually

deliver on the child care spaces they said they would and deliver on the

affordable universal $10-a-day child care that, again, was promised by

this government and that they appear to have tossed aside?

[3:25 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Thanks to the member for the question. He talks about an equitable

recovery. I think there are many things governments can do to ensure

that the recovery is felt the same way for those who have been

disproportionately, certainly, impacted by the pandemic. I think there

are things like the server wage. Having a wage for a server less than a

minimum wage in a profession that is disproportionately women working in

it is not something that’s equitable and certainly creates that

inequality between women and men in our society.

Ripping up contracts for those that work in health care…. There

was a time not too far ago where we saw the single-largest layoff of

women in B.C.’s history, ripping up contracts. My mom was one of

them.

I’ll leave it there. I could go on more, but I’ll just say that

wanting to ensure that there’s a just recovery is something that our

government is passionate about, something that’s very important. When

you’re discussing child care spaces, there’s an element of that as

well.

The member will know, as we’ve talked about 26,000 new spaces,

that’s without federal dollars. When the federal government comes on

board, we’ll be able to do considerably more. Just recently 112 spaces

in his community, Métis Nation — culturally appropriate safe spaces.

We’re doing that work. We’re doing that with First Nations. We’re doing

that with Indigenous communities, and we’re going to continue to do

that, because it is an important element of an equitable economic

recovery.

T. Stone: Well, I didn’t hear an answer to my question, which was: in light

of the fact that the government that he’s part of has fallen so

miserably behind the targets that they promised British Columbians on

child care…?

I’m aware of the announcement they made in Kamloops, but it’s an

announcement. This is what is happening all over the province. There are

announcements being made, and in other cases, there are notional

discussions being held and numbers from those discussions being

incorporated into broader calculations of all these child care spaces,

which supposedly are going to appear soon, coming to a neighbourhood

near you.

But we’re not seeing it on the ground. British Columbians aren’t

seeing the child care spaces that were promised opening up at the clip

that is necessary, based on the promise that was made.

Again, we’re probably — what? — five, six questions into this now,

maybe more. I keep asking about the universal $10-a-day daycare

commitment, waiting for the minister to challenge my assertion earlier

that it’s not in the budget. I said that it’s not in the budget

anywhere, not going to find it anywhere in the budget. I’m waiting for

him to push back on that. I haven’t heard that push-back.

I’ve provided him with the actual quotes of the words of the

Minister of State for Child Care, where she talks a heck of a lot about

alternative funding models but increasingly has moved away from

referring to universal $10-a-day daycare.

[3:30 p.m.]

I think, it’s going to be disappointing to a lot of British

Columbians and a lot of families out there to not hear the Economic

Recovery Minister, the Jobs Minister, stand up and say: “There’s a heck

of a lot more work to do here.” Stand up and acknowledge that if his

government has moved past the universal $10-a-day daycare, well, then,

just call a spade a spade and tell British Columbians. Give them the

correct information on that. I think British Columbians will find that

disappointing.

I don’t know how you can have a full economic recovery that’s

equitable without addressing the affordability challenges that are faced

by so many British Columbians when it comes to child care.

The minister made a passing reference to the…. He talked about the

server wage and took some shots at our former government. Fair enough.

He can do that. But I think it’s a bit rich to talk about the server

wage and some of these other issues when the official opposition has put

pay equity legislation on the books session after session after session,

only to have pay equity legislation deemed by the Premier to be a

gimmick. Those are the words of the Premier.

[S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.]

Again on child care, I guess the question at this point would be

in relation to the minister of state’s comments about looking at

alternative funding models, alternative funding mechanisms. I’m

wondering if the Minister of Economic Recovery, who says that economic

recovery — I think we agree with each other on this — cannot truly

happen unless it’s equitable for all…. We really believe

that.

Child care has to be affordable. The government did make

commitments around that. I’m wondering if the minister has had any input

on the development of the alternative child care funding models, which

the Minister of State for Child Care and the government generally

increasingly talk about.

The Chair: Minister.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Thank you, and welcome to the chair, hon. Chair.

The member wants to know if I agree that there is a heck of a lot

more work to do, and I do agree that there is a heck of a lot more work

to do. Just for context, when I say we’ve created 26,000 spaces…. He

probably knows this, but if he doesn’t, in the 16 years they were in

government, they created 13,000 spaces. So just to put it in context,

26,000 spaces in our four years compared to 13,000 in their

I appreciate the member talking about pay equity legislation, but

I’m talking about actions you took when you were in government, where

you created a wage that disproportionately impacted women at below

minimum wage. So I appreciate what you’re talking about when you’re in

opposition. I’m talking about what you did when you were in government.

When you had the power to do things, that’s what happened.

[3:35 p.m.]

It’s important for the member to know, just because he’s clearly

interested in child care, that we have $30 million invested in child

care just in Kamloops alone — $30 million. So $11 million of savings for

families, 442 spaces. That’s $500,000 in additional salaries going to 41

ECEs, disproportionately women, in the community. I would say that’s

considerable.

To his comment: can I agree with him that there’s a heck of a lot

more to do? I agree with him. There’s more work to do, and we’re going

to continue to do that.

As a member of cabinet…. Many important issues within government

come to cabinet, and certainly, the good work of the minister of state

does. I appreciate the work she’s doing, and I continue to support her

efforts to provide more equitable access to child care throughout

B.C.

The Chair: Member.

T. Stone: Thank you, Chair, and welcome to the chair.

I do appreciate the understanding of the minister and his staff

and the folks, other MLAs, that are watching the Chairs that are

rotating out on some of the themes and the subjects that we’re going to

canvass over these next few days.

On the surface of it, to some, child care may not seem obvious as

an economic recovery item. I think everyone in this House agrees that it

is. Therefore, to the extent that the minister is willing to answer

questions relating to some of the stuff from the perspective of the

importance of these issues to the livelihoods of British Columbians, the

economic imperative of a number of these programs and areas in

government — actually, the economic imperative it means for so many

British Columbians — I think it’s important that we continue to canvass

some of these subjects.

This is also, again, in the context of economic recovery. If we

all agree that access to affordable child care is critical to an

equitable economic recovery, then we’re going to ask some questions

about it here. Again, I appreciate the indulgence of the minister and

his team in doing so.

I’m going to go back to the restart plan just generally. I thought

that I would read a few sections of a letter I received, just the other

day, actually, from the chamber of commerce up in Kamloops, a really

good chamber of commerce. I’m not sure if the minister has had a chance

to meet them yet, but I’m sure he will. Like many chambers, they’re

actively engaged in policy development across a wide range of areas. But

what I really appreciate from them, which is not necessarily a theme of

every organization out there, is that the Kamloops chamber does call a

spade a spade. So they will give credit where credit is due. They will

express concerns where they have concerns.

There are a few sections of their letter that I just wanted to

canvass with the minister. Again, the overall theme of their letter is….

Well, I’ll quote the title of the letter. It says: “B.C.’s restart —

urgent need for immediate consultation with provincial associations,

businesses and not-for-profit organizations.”

The first piece would be this. This is the Kamloops Chamber of

Commerce letter. “As our business membership has now had time to digest

the restart plan, our members have identified the need for rapid

consultation with provincial associations and business groups in

anticipation of the province’s moves through steps 2, 3 and

4.”

In talking to members of the Kamloops Chamber of Commerce,

verbally engaging with them after this letter, the context of this is

that they’re concerned that the pace of the consultation doesn’t seem,

doesn’t feel, doesn’t look like it’s actually requisite to the urgency

that many of their members, small businesses in Kamloops, are really

feeling.

[3:40 p.m.]

So the question to the minister would be: what is his response to

the Kamloops Chamber of Commerce and, I would suggest, many other

chambers like it to the concern — this letter is dated June 3, so just

the other day — that they’ve raised with respect to the pace of

engagement with their organization to address challenges and issues that

are being faced by their members to ensure that rapid action is actually

taken to address those concerns, moving forward?

Hon. R. Kahlon: Thank you to the hon. member for the question. I met with the

Kamloops chamber, and his description is accurate. Stray goods, as they

see it, is correct. We have received the letter.

[3:45 p.m.]

There were a couple of things in the letter. They requested that

we engage with certain associations — the Hotel Association and the arts

sector, which is being done by the Ministry of Tourism, Arts, Culture

and Sport — and also to engage with the B.C. Chamber of Commerce, which

our ministry and staff have been engaging with.

The process is very similar to the way I describe the MLAs’

offices are operating. So MLAs’ offices have…. Every MLA, from all

parties, has one central contact point where they’re feeding questions.

We’re collating the answers and getting them to the appropriate body.

That’s what we’re doing with all these associations as well.

The B.C. Chamber is reaching out to all of their membership to get

a sense of where the questions are, what challenges they may see, and

then we’re providing answers where we can. Where there is a direct

feedback for safety plans, our ministry is working with PHO as well as

WorkSafe to either get an answer or make sure those things are reflected

in the safety plans as we move forward.

T. Stone: Well, I think the challenge is this. The small businesses, the

thousands of small businesses out there that have been impacted

negatively by the pandemic, whether they were shut down entirely or shut

down for significant lengths of time or just saw a reduction in their….

I shouldn’t say “just saw,” but saw a reduction in their revenue of some

sort and have had struggles as a result of that, are really

hyper-focused and hypersensitive, I think rightfully so, to there being

a rapid deployment of consideration for the issues and the challenges

that they’re facing within the more granular details that come out as

part of the additional phases of the restart plan.

So, as that question had said, as the province moves through

phases 2, 3 and 4, the concern is really that there doesn’t appear to

have been a lot of detailed work done that has gotten down to the small

business level, to not just the B.C. Chamber of Commerce. I appreciate

that they have a role in all of this. But it’s often the local regional

chambers of commerce, as one example — the local regional CFIB chapters,

the local regional chapters of the restaurant associations and so forth

— that understand the nuances, the uniqueness, the specific challenges

that are faced by members in their backyard.

The concern is really how the engagement with the umbrella

organizations is going to mesh with the critical feedback that needs to

come from the local and regional organizations in a timely fashion so

that rapid deployment of those concerns and challenges, or solutions to

them, can actually take place.

I’ll just read another sentence from the letter, which I think

encapsulates this well. It’s, again, from the chamber of commerce, June

3: “There is real concern from our members that their nuanced

pandemic-related operating practices have not been fully addressed in

the restart plan, and the planned sector consultations must be

coordinated as quickly as possible.”

I’m wondering if the minister could, again, respond to this

concern that the chamber of commerce in Kamloops has raised, recognizing

time is of the essence still for so many of these impacted small

businesses out there.

[3:50 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I agree with the member. It’s very complicated. He’ll agree with

me that our businesses have done amazing work to adjust to changing

circumstances throughout the pandemic.

There are 530,000 businesses in B.C. I wish I had more time to

engage with more. But that being said, in order to be efficient and get

information out, we’ve created a hub-and-spoke model. We created that

model so that MLA offices had a central point to get questions in and

answers out. We created that model so that we could work with the

associations.

I know the CEO of B.C. Chamber of Commerce is a very

thoughtful person who is working as hard as she can with her members to

get the unique perspective from different corners of the province. CFIB,

all these other organizations are doing that important work so that they

can get us that information.

We also staggered the openings in a way that gives us some time to

continue to work on the safety plans with the various associations.

We’ve relied on them a lot. Like I said, the industry engagement table

has over 174 members. I’m sure we could add many, many more. As time

goes on, we’ve been adding. We found that that has been the most

effective way through the representation to get answers and get

questions, get feedback in order to address the challenges. It could be

as simple as: do we need arrows at a grocery store? We’ve now become

used to them. These are the kinds of detailed questions we’re looking

at.

We do have someone within our ministry that is working with some

of the stakeholders. Every ministry has got a list of their

stakeholders, and they’re all engaging. Back to the letter, it was

recommended to us that we talk to the hotel association, the art sector,

which has already been happening, with Tourism, Arts and Culture. It was

recommended that we meet with the B.C. Chamber of Commerce. Of course,

that was an early-on conversation, and we’ve been engaged with them all

the way through. They’ve been a fantastic partner to get us quick

information and feedback throughout the process.

I do agree with the member. There are a lot of businesses — and a

lot of uniqueness in every business. We’ve built a system to adjust to

as many challenges as we’re hearing, to adjust the programming

accordingly.

T. Stone: I would say this. I think that what a lot of these small

businesses are trying to reflect — in this case, through the Kamloops

Chamber of Commerce in the case of Kamloops; I’m going to go so far as

to suggest this is a common theme across the province — would be that

time is of the essence. Notwithstanding light at the end of the tunnel

insofar as a reopening target date — hopefully it becomes a hard date,

if vaccination rates and the other COVID numbers continue on a downward

trajectory — there is a growing sense of anxiety and worry from these

small businesses through their local and regional associations that the

nuances of their challenges, their concerns, their issues are not,

haven’t been, going to continue to bubble up quickly enough.

[3:55 p.m.]

While I think they would all say they appreciate very much the

efforts of the public health community and the folks at WorkSafeBC and

everyone, generally, for trying to respond as quickly as possible to the

pandemic, we are 15-plus months into it. Hopefully, there are lessons to

be learned in terms of how to access more quickly or facilitate the

input of concerns so that the deployment of solutions can be that much

quicker.

I will read one final piece from this Kamloops Chamber of Commerce

letter into the record. It goes as follows:

“The restart plan does not answer many of the questions businesses

have about how the plan will impact them on the ground in the days

ahead, but it does promise sector consultation. Sector consultation is

critical to eliminate confusion and unpredictability. Consultation will

take time, and time is short. The chamber calls on the province of B.C.

and public health to move ahead with the necessary sector consultations

with the greatest sense of urgency.”

I couldn’t agree more with Kamloops Chamber of Commerce in terms

of what’s required here. So I would like to ask the minister if he could

speak to, again, this anxiety that’s building around the sense of

urgency and the timelines of accessing the concerns in a timely fashion

from small businesses, whether it’s through their sector organizations

or directly to government, so that the minister and his staff can

fashion solutions — in concert with the public health community,

obviously — to address those challenges from small businesses as quickly

as possible.

I’d really like to understand what the minister’s sense of the

timing of that is going to be as we move through into phase 2 and then

on to phase 3 and, we’re all hoping, phase 4, as per the

schedule that’s

been mapped out in the restart plan.

[4:00 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: Thanks to the member for the question. There was anxiety when we

didn’t have a restart plan, and then when there’s a restart plan,

there’s anxiety to get ready to roll with the plan.

This entire pandemic has been full of anxiety for people and for

businesses. I agree with the member that there is a sense of excitement

from businesses who finally want to get their businesses back to where

they were — in fact, in a better situation than they were

before.

The letter that the member refers to was written to Dr. Henry, but

I’ve had a chance to go through it. In the letter, they didn’t talk

about any specific concerns. Certainly, if the member wants or the

member would like, we can reach out directly to the chamber to hear

their direct concerns.

Like I said, we created the system the way we did, hub and spoke,

so that all members of this chamber can send direct questions in, direct

feedback in. We can provide answers where we can. I think that it’s

understood that there’ll be guidance that will come out with every

stage. Certainly, the bigger changes are the July 1 or phase 3 projected

stage. I appreciate what the member is saying. I know I feel it, and I

know that many members do feel it.

Again, I’m so grateful to all the associations for working so hard

and in such a thoughtful way to help manage and navigate the anxiety

that many of their members are facing. I appreciate the leadership of

the B.C. Chamber of Commerce in working with all their partners to

collate that feedback and working with us to help ensure that it gets

out.

Hon. Speaker, can we request a five-minute recess?

The Chair: Thank you, Minister. You may make that request, and that

request is granted. We will have a five-minute recess.

The committee recessed from 4:01 p.m. to 4:10 p.m.

[S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.]

The Chair: I believe there’s a member that wants to speak — the minister

or the member. They’re both so polite. “You go ahead.” “No. You go

ahead.”

The member for Kamloops–South Thompson.

T. Stone: Okay. I’ll just say this, in terms of wrapping up this part with

respect to the concerns that have been expressed by the Kamloops Chamber

of Commerce. I very much will report back to them, and I will suggest

that if they’re able to, that they put some specific details around the

concerns that are being raised by specific members and that that be

forwarded, I think the minister said, to the ministry. So we’ll,

offline, figure out…. I see the deputy minister waving her hands, so

we’ll forward that. We’ll make that connection so that those concerns

have a place to go. I do appreciate that.

Again, I know that the concerns relate to the nuanced challenges

that the different sectors have at a local level, which can be very

different in Kamloops versus Maple Ridge versus Nanaimo. I know that the

chamber will be looking for an opportunity to engage, in a more timely

and urgent fashion, to make sure that their challenges are

reflected.

I wanted to just talk a bit about the reopening plan piece, the

safe reopening plans that are being worked on with sectors. Again, I

think that the main challenge that we’re all hearing from small

businesses is: “When are we going to see the details? When are we going

to have a heads-up? When are we going to know what the specific

requirements will be in our particular sector?”

Can the minister, again recognizing that we’ve been in this

pandemic for many, many, many months…? We’re all happy that we appear to

be in a place where things look a little brighter ahead, but there’s

still a heck of a lot of pain that small businesses are feeling — worry,

anxiety that they have — and I’d like to know if lessons learned from

the past are being incorporated into the approach, moving forward, to

ensure that there is a much faster, more robust response to the concerns

of small businesses and the sector associations in the development of

these sector safety plans.

Can the minister give us any timelines beyond phases 1, 2, 3, 4?

What are the other dates or timelines that are at play here in terms of

getting those sector plan details hammered down and out to the relevant

small businesses in the different sectors with as much heads-up and time

as possible so they can begin to take the steps much sooner than later?

That, I think we can all agree, was a significant challenge the several

times that we’ve gone through closing and reopening over the past year

and a half.

[4:15 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: There were many lessons learned through this pandemic. Certainly,

one of the reasons why our ministry is now engaged in working with PHO

and our sector partners was to help facilitate that conversation so that

we can get a desirable outcome. I agree with the hon. member. Getting

information to associations in a timely way, allowing them to be able to

engage and help us create the sector safety plan is going to be

critically important.

In the coming days, we’ll probably get some guidance from PHO,

health guidance. Then what we’ll do is we’ll go to each sector from

there and say: “Based on this guidance, how can we work with WorkSafe to

update the safety plans?” That’s the next step, I think the member was

asking. We’re going to get the guidance from PHO in the coming days.

We’re going to go to the sector associations to say: “Within this

guidance, how can we proceed?”

We expect less changes in the next phase. Restaurants, for

example, will only be extending, I suspect, their hours of operating,

but many of their safety plans will remain. But there will be some

sectors that will have some changes, and that’s how we’re going to

proceed. But we will be engaging further with each sector association,

like I said, in the coming days.

T. Stone: Well, I appreciate “coming days,” but that is not the level of

accuracy or detail or focus that I think small business owners, who have

really been struggling through this pandemic to this point, are looking

to hear.

I think everybody understands that there are sector

consultations that will be underway. I think everybody understands that

the industry trade organizations and associations will be consulting

with their members. But what small businesses are looking for is: “When

am I going to know what I need to do in order to be approved in order to

be able to open or enhance my service, the level of service that I

provide pursuant to the restart plan? When am I going to know what is

going to be required of me?”

Can the minister be a bit more specific, instead of saying “in the

coming days”? There are two critical dates coming up. There’s June 15,

which is phase 2 of the restart plan, and then there’s July 1, which is

phase 3.

[4:20 p.m.]

Phase 3 definitely has a fair bit more opening contemplated within

it than phase 2 does. But within that time frame, from now to July 1,

one would think there’s a tremendous amount of work that’s required in

order to go through the detail in each of these sectors and get that

information out to small businesses in each of those sectors. So can the

minister be more specific than just the coming days in terms of when

small businesses are going to know what it is they need to do in order

to safely reopen as per the restart plan?

Hon. R. Kahlon: Again, I’ll highlight that this conversation is ongoing. It’s not

going to start in a couple of days. We’ve been engaging with various

sectors and associations since the restart plan has been announced about

what possibly could come. We’re waiting for the provincial health office

to give us some updated information. I know that he’d like an exact

date. I’d love an exact date, but we’ve been told it’s the coming

days.

We have been working back and forth with associations. I’ll give

the member an example. The banquet halls, for example, wanted to find

out what the next phase means for them. They listed a whole bunch of

questions. We just provided them a whole bunch of answers. You can have

up to 50 people. You can have a buffet, but it’s got to be done with

these kinds of rules.

[4:25 p.m.]

So as the associations start thinking about where they fit, in the

next phase, they’ve been asking questions, and we’ve been providing

answers. That’s the kind of cooperative approach that we’ve taken, and

it’s been getting a positive review so far. And we’re going to continue

that work.

T. Stone: The minister says he would like some more specific dates, and he’s

correct in saying I would like more specific dates. But frankly, at the

moment, neither he nor I are small business owners in the middle of this

storm. It’s the small business community, small business owners, that

are looking for the clarity of time. They’re looking for more specific

information around the details. They’re looking for the details of

what’s going to be expected of them, with a tighter timeline than just

“in the coming days.”

I’m just again wondering why we’re not in a place, having

announced a B.C. restart plan, which we all know was developed in close

concert with the provincial health officer and her team and the

government of British Columbia and the Ministry of Health, presumably

the Premier’s office — government generally…. How is it that a restart

plan gets developed which has dates that are specific enough to suggest

certain phases of reopening that will take place and high-level examples

of things that will be able to happen in each of those phases, but

there’s no level of detail underneath that, that’s part of the restart

plan to this day?

Now we’re being told that we might get those details in the days

ahead. I would suggest that that’s not good enough, on behalf of

thousands of small business people out there. They need certainty. They

need visibility into what’s actually coming down the pipe here, what’s

expected of them. Their excitement for reopening — whatever that means

to their unique business — should not be confused with worry and anxiety

and stress that has built up on their shoulders and is continuing to get

worse against the backdrop of not having any greater degree of certainty

as to what’s going to be expected of them to actually safely reopen as

per the restart plan.

Has the minister been provided any draft scenarios within his

ministry, sector by sector? Has he been provided any draft scenarios in

a handful of sectors? I’d like to know, on behalf of small businesses

out there, if that work indeed has been underway and is underway and

what it looks like, sector by sector.

Hon. R. Kahlon: Again I’ll highlight what I’ve highlighted several times for the

member, which is that we’ve been working closely with associations

throughout this pandemic. We’ve been adjusting as we go

along.

[N. Letnick in the chair.]

One of the learnings was that we needed to work with provincial

health and work with our stakeholder associations to give them

certainty. I think it’s important for the member to know that,

overwhelmingly, we have gotten positive response on our restart

plan.

[4:30 p.m.]

We just received a letter from the Tourism Industry Association of

B.C., which said:

“Thank you for your leadership on B.C.’s restart plan.

“This accomplishes five things. It provides certainty and

predictability to allow tourism and hospitality businesses to plan for

the summer and beyond in terms of staffing, supplies, sales, marketing,

etc., and outlines details on what can take place and how so many

businesses can prepare for guests and project their short-, medium- and

long-term revenue prospects.

“This plan articulates targets for advancing through various stages.

It allows our industry to understand why or when the province changes

courses. This plan helps work towards restoring confidence and provides

a level of comfort that travelling activities can resume over time while

protecting residents, communities, workers and guests. This plan

provides further direction on revised health and safety guidelines that

all tourism and hospitality workplaces will need to put in place to

ensure compliance with provincial orders.”

This is the type of feedback we’re getting from the associations

that represent important businesses throughout B.C. That’s why the level

of certainty that we were able to get in the restart plan was so

important.

Dr. Henry laid out the metrics, as the provincial health office

saw them, ensuring that there were three-week — I believe the term she

used was “incubation” — periods, knowing that it takes up to 21 days for

vaccines to fully take effect, to fully see where the trend lines are

going after we’ve made some changes and put in metrics for percentages

of vaccine minimums. All this — and dates as well as minimums — I think,

is exactly what the tourism sector and all the business associations

were hoping for.

Again, I’ll highlight some commentary for the member. We’ve been

hearing from all different sectors. They’ve been writing to us and

talking about how much they appreciate the certainty. I mean, I could

read these for days. I think it’s important to acknowledge that the

restart plan did give comfort and structure to all businesses in

B.C.

Now, as I mentioned to the member, we’ve been working with the

different associations and providing them feedback on how they can

operate safely as we move to the different phases. All of that will be

provided to businesses as we go into the different phases so that they

have it and their feedback is incorporated.

I gave the member one example right now, just off the top of my

head, around banquet halls, which have been closed for a long time and

are now just about to operate. They wanted to have some certainty around

the rules, and we were able to provide them that. Those conversations

are ongoing.

Again, I agree that there’s anxiety out there. People are anxious;

businesses are anxious. Workers around going back to work, for those who

haven’t.

The whole purpose of the restart plan was to provide a level of

certainty. We’re going to continue to work with them to ensure that

every time we get to a different level of the restart plan, the safety

guidelines that are required for different businesses are made out as

clearly as possible. If some issues arise, like the pandemic has shown

us, we will adjust.

We’re resilient people, and we’re going to continue to adjust. So

far, people are getting vaccinated. Cases are going down. So I’m feeling

pretty positive about where things are going.

T. Stone: I have received a lot of letters from associations as well. I was

on a round table with the B.C. Tourism Industry Association and a whole

bunch of cruise ship operators and people in the cruise ship sector, as

one example, very recently.

In talking with other folks in the tourism sector very recently,

both myself and our critic, the opposition critic for Tourism…. There

are many organizations and many businesses in the tourism sector and

other sectors that do not share the minister’s rosy optimism about their

futures. If I were the minister, I wouldn’t confuse a letter from the

Tourism Industry Association that expresses great relief that we finally

have a restart plan in the province, after numerous other jurisdictions

around us and across the country had rolled out plans….

[4:35 p.m.]

Clearly, British Columbians were relieved that there was finally a

plan on the table. That relief and that appreciation have been expressed

in a number of quarters. Rightfully so.

The concern relates to the consultation and the engagement that

are happening as details are fleshed out to backstop the different

phases which are contained in the restart plan. That’s the issue that

I’m trying to get at here.

I’ll tell you what one tour operator said to me the other day in

the context of the restart plan and what it means for her business. She

said: “The track record of government on this appears to be ‘decide now

and consult later.’”

If you actually look back over the last 15 months and you look at,

as health measures have rolled out, the back-and-forth we had with

restaurants and no notice being given of restrictive additional measures

being put in place…. We’ve got all kinds of building anxiety and

frustration with actual businesses that are saying: “I have no idea

what’s expected of my business between now and….” Let’s skip over June

15, the phase 2 date, and go to July 1, which, even at that, is only

three weeks away. “I have no idea what I’m going to need to do as a

business because those details are just not available.”

The minister says he can read off all kinds of letters. People are

relieved. Yeah, British Columbians are relieved that there’s actually a

plan on the table, but incumbent on the minister and his colleagues,

government generally, is to actually flesh the plan out now and to do so

as quickly as possible so that businesses have that certainty of knowing

what’s going to be expected of them. That has not been the case up to

this point.

On the whole safety plan issue or concern, again, all these

businesses depending on…. Well, it doesn’t really matter which sector.

They’re all going to have safety plans of some sort that they’re going

to have to flesh out and implement.

Is the minister considering any capacity funding to help small

businesses implement the safety plans that are going to become required

for their safe reopening or their safe expansion of service hours or

service delivery to their customers?

[4:40 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: I sense a bit of frustration from the hon. member around the

positive feedback we’ve been getting from businesses and associations

around the restart plan and how much they appreciate the metrics we’ve

had in place. I would say to him that I’m sure they love them still and

not to take it personally, but we’re going to continue to work with them

and provide good information and work in a good, meaningful way. I think

that’s a good thing for everyone.

I know that one of his former colleagues, Barry Penner, who is now

the lawyer for the cruise ship industry, has raised some concerns around

the future of the cruise industry here in Victoria. I know that’s been

canvassed many times, but again, once restrictions are removed and

people can travel, I’m confident that people will be coming back here

and enjoying this beautiful city. I guess I’m biased. I was born and

raised here. But it’s a great opportunity for those that are travelling

to Alaska to come here.

I think that, of course, we want certainty. That’s why we’re

engaged in this process to work with associations, to work with business

associations, work with PHO to provide that certainty, provide that

feedback in how we create the safety plans and work with WorkSafe B.C.

I’m sure the opposition critic was able to ask questions of the Ministry

of Labour around WorkSafe. I’m sure that’s been canvassed, or if it

hasn’t, whenever that is coming.

Part of the phases is actually easing restrictions. Most sectors

are going to see a lightening of restrictions — not lightening, but less

restrictions over time. That being said, of course, there are supports

in place. We’re going to canvass grants that are available and funding

that is available — of course, PST rebates for anyone that needs to buy

new machinery or new equipment. There is a whole host of supports in

place. The idea, as we move to the phases of restart, is taking away,

not adding — so lightening that load that the businesses have been

feeling. Again, we’re going to continue to engage with them over the

coming weeks to get into those details, as we have been

already.

I’ve highlighted the banquet halls, but there will be many other

examples of associations writing to us with questions, detailed

questions, and us providing detailed answers — same supports we’re

providing all MLAs. All members from all sides of the House have been

taking advantage. We’ve been getting emails from MLAs on all sides of

the House, which is a good thing.

T. Stone: The question was: can small businesses expect capacity funding to

help with the implementation of safety plans which they’re going to

inevitably be required to implement? Can they expect capacity funding to

help them with those costs?

Hon. R. Kahlon: The member is aware that there are small and medium-sized recovery

grant programs available. There is a whole host of other measures —

support with wages, tax credits. There is a lot of supports in place for

businesses as we move through the restart plan. So yes, there are

dollars available for businesses that need support.

T. Stone: Well, recognizing that there are thousands of businesses that are

not eligible for the range of programs that the minister speaks of….

We’ll definitely get into this in detail later on in estimates. But

given that there are lots of businesses that don’t meet the eligibility

requirements, what about them?

We know that the costs of PPE and other modifications that many

businesses had to make to create safe workspaces for their employees,

for their customers, were significant. The costs were enormous. The

government didn’t provide any support on that last time around. The same

businesses are asking: are they going to be able to get some support

from this government — support that they’ll actually be eligible for —

that would help them with whatever costs they’re going to need to incur

in order to facilitate adherence to the safe reopening plan that will be

applicable to their particular business?

[4:45 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: The member talks about “they,” but I’m not sure exactly who he’s

talking about. I’m sure we’ll go into details of who he defines as

“they.” But we do have business supports available — as I’ve

highlighted, the small and medium-sized recovery grant program. We have

tax credits for hiring and rehiring employees, a PST rebate for

machinery. The Canada wage subsidy from the federal government has been

extended to the end of September. There is a whole host of supports that

are available — a 25 percent reduction in liquor pricing for restaurants

that we’ve made permanent now. So there is a whole host of measures

we’ve put in place.

B.C. is devoting almost 3 percent of GDP to provincial COVID

measures. That’s the highest of any province. Manitoba is

second-highest, and they’re at 2 percent of their GDP. We have

significant supports in place. Again, I think that’s why we’re at 99.9

percent job recovery, and that’s during the circuit breaker when that

survey was taken. We’re going to continue to work with all our

stakeholders, work with people across B.C. to make it through, and we

are going to make it through.

T. Stone: Well, we have a lot to cover. We’ll get to the business supports

and the argument that the minister continues to make about British

Columbia being No. 1 in the country when it comes to supports. It

certainly is not the case when it comes to direct relief provided to

business. We’re No. 8 in the country. He should stop lumping that all in

together, because it’s inaccurate in the context of direct relief and

grants provided to small businesses here in British Columbia. We’re No.

8 on that front.

If we all agree that a strong economic recovery, in part, must

involve a significant rebound of business in this province, then there

had better be a recognition that there is a continued need and a

significant need by businesses across many sectors that, coming out of

this pandemic, are going to need this government to step up and support

them and support them at levels above No. 8 in the country.

We’ll get to some questions on that, but I guess what I will take

from his previous responses is that it’s a no from government. It’s a no

from the minister with respect to capacity funding or support for

businesses to help them offset costs related to the implementation of

workplace safety plans. It’s a great big fat no. If the minister wants

to correct me on that, I’ll give him one more opportunity to do

so.

[4:50 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: The hon. member mentions eighth. I mean that would put us where,

Nova Scotia? Newfoundland? I’m not sure where exactly he’s getting the

numbers from. He knows where I’m citing my numbers from. It’s a report

that actually he brought my attention to in question period one day when

he mentioned the CCPA report. I appreciate him highlighting that report

for me to be able to see that we have the highest per capita supports

for people in businesses. I wasn’t aware of it until question period one

time.

That being said, we have a whole host of measures of supports in

place. That’s why we made the 25 percent liquor pricing permanent.

That’s why we have a PST reduction for new machinery that is bought.

That is why we have tax credits for hiring and rehiring. That’s why the

federal government extended their wage subsidy program.

There is a whole measure of supports that are in place. Tourism,

Arts and Culture has financial supports that are going out. We still

have many grants that are going out still to manufacturers, to

businesses that are trying to get online and set up their digital

presence and set up their e-commerce, which has been critically

important for businesses.

We have a whole host of supports that are in place. Like I said,

we’re going to keep moving through the restart plan, encourage people to

get vaccinated, so we can continue to head in a more positive direction

and do all the things that we all want to do and spend the time with our

families and travelling throughout the province hopefully

soon.

T. Stone: Recognizing that WorkSafe does have the power to shut down

businesses with more than one positive COVID case, that particular

business may not qualify for any of the grant programs and the supports

that the minister has mentioned. Again, there are many that don’t

qualify for the circuit breaker. There are many that don’t qualify for

the small and medium-sized business recovery grant.

If that particular business ends up being shut down because of one

positive COVID case, I don’t think anyone would take issue with the

shutdown. But will there be support made available to that business from

this government, so that they can actually get through that period of

time and survive whatever that closure’s impact is going to be on their

bottom-line and their ability to remain open long term?

[4:55 p.m.]

Hon. R. Kahlon: The member will know that that’s more WorkSafe-related, the

shutting down of businesses. Of course, it’s through the provincial

health office, through provincial health order. He’ll know that

government is covering the costs for workers that have to leave their

work, covering the sick time for those workers. Through Health and PHO,

we’ve worked with many large employers that, in particular, had

outbreaks or were prone to outbreaks because of the nature of their

business operation, and they were prioritized to get vaccinated just to

protect the workers but, of course, to protect the environment that

those workers worked in and, in effect, also supported the

businesses.

So we have been doing that work from the beginning — again, a

whole host of measures and supports that are in place. Even businesses

that are doing well can access some of these supports as well. Of

course, it’s a big help for businesses that are struggling, but many

that are doing quite well have had access to many of these programs as

well.

T. Stone: Well, the sick pay provision for workers, which was brought in

recently, was endorsed by everyone in