Volume 4 / PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 4th. Session VERBATIM REPORT FRIDAY, MARCH 21, 1975 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE M. JAMES RUSSELL Number 17

March 21, 1975 The House met at 11:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. _MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape 580 STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. F. ROWE: Mr, Speaker, I wish to rise on a matter of personal privilege. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member for St. Barbe North. IR-1 MR. F. ROWE: Sir, the matter of personal privilege 1 I understand 1 is to be raised for consideration immediately. Last night the Chairman of Committees was in the Chair. The Speaker was not in the Chair. The proceedings of the Committee were somewhat hectic at the time.

I needed a transcript of the tapes in order to get accurately what was said during certain exchanges at this time and consequently this is the most immediate time that I can raise this particular point of privilege. Sir, the circumstances leading up to certain charges by --- certain members opposite resulted from my reference to a demonstration that was held in the lobby of the Confederation Building where I pointed out the dissatisfaction of the students at the College of Trades and Technology and their disappointment over the building of a residence for the College of Trades and Technology.

Now, Sir, the next thing that happened following this was that I was being interrogated and questioned b~ members opposite as to whether or not I condoned or approved of such actions which subsequently turned out to be actions prior to a rec~ption held at the College of Trades and Technology following the Budget Speech. Sir, I said at that time that I did not condone nor did I approve of any civil disobedience, destruction of property or bodily injuries during any demonstration. I have simply stated, Sir, that I felt that the students were Justified in their symbolic act of delaying the reception.

I stated quite clearly that I neither condoned nor did I ever attempt to incite such activity, but I did feel that the students had a justifiable case. Now, Sir, following that, certain charges were made and 1811

March 21, 1975 Tape 580 IB-2 we can probably pass - if the page would pass this to the honourable the Speaker and to the clerk. Certain charges were made, Mr. Speaker, and I refer you to tape 575, IB-1, Mr. F. Rowe, and I will read out, Sir, the verbatim r_eport so that the House of Assembly can hear it as accurately as possible. ' 1 Mr. F. Rovl'e :· I will not have the honourable Minister of Fisheries nor any other member of this Committee, Sir, stand up and put words in my mouth. It is as simple as that. I have not JI advocated everything that is illegal except violence.

Prior to this, Sir, the member for Placentia East said that I condone everything that is illegal except violence. Unfortunately, Sir, and I apologize to the House, I was not able to find that because we had to go through ten or eleven tapes up there earlier · this morning. I never heatd of anything so ridiculous. 11 Shut up! Shut up! Shut up! - Some honourable member. "Mr • F. Rowe : II I simply said that I did not even say 1that I condone. As a matter of fact, I said I did not condone these things.

I simply said that the actions - now listen to this - ''the actions of these students in my opinion were justifiable when the Minister of Education had written them a letter in November promising something for the Spring and they reneged on their promise and they broke their promise. There is nothing legally, morally or anything else wrong with any group of people•in this province symbolically. They did not occupy the place . and close it off for two or three weeks or days or hours. They symbol'ically delayed a rece.ptiort which I attended and enjoyed very much.

They made their point and they were justified in doing so. Sir, the~ the honourable Minister of Fisheries gets up and justifies his advocating civil disobedience in this province. The Minister of Fisheries very conveniently forgets that the constitutional expert in Canada, Senator Eugene Forsey, at the very time, a good Newfoundlander, at that very time said the previous Liberal Administration had every constitutional right to remain in office at that particular time. They got 1812

March 21, 1975 Tape 581 (Morning) PK - l out of office when they constitutionally have to get out of office.'' Then, Sir, we go to the same tape, page IB-3, and we pick up the continuation of the Honourable Member for Placentia East's statement, the last few sentences, Sir. "rt is shocking for the press to record tomorrow that two elected members of the House of Assembly in Newfoundland stood up in there places and said they agreed, they have just as much right." Now, Sir, my colleague for Hermitage got up and essentially made the same point that I did, and defended my particular stand on this issue.

Here is the charge, Sir. 11They are inviting rebellion in every public building in this province. Supposing tomorrow, Mr. Chairman, that the public servants decide that they just do not like the wage offer or what is happening in Treasury Board, they had a letter that they were supposed to get this much money or that much money, Confederation Building should be closed down - MR. CROSBIE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. CROSBIE: On a point of order. Order, please! Mr. Speaker, you know, the honourable gentleman has not said what this - I mean what is happening here now?

He has not said what breach of privilege he is complaining about. He is reading a Hansard to us. Could it be explained what the breach of privilege is suppose to be? MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, to that poittt of order. It has always been the custom of this House that an honourable member is allowed to state his - you know, subject to Your Honour's ruling, and not to the gentleman for St. John's ,!est. My colleague eventually when he is - all he is doing now is outlinjng the subject matter. He is not doing it at any undue length. He is not being dilatory.

Obviously the breaches of privilege concerned are to be found - they are of the type referred to on page 101 of Beauchesne, Citation 111

(1) Wilful misrepresentation of the proceedings of members. That is one of tht! hGlld ... The other le CJ tat Lon 108

(3) Libels on members have been 1813

March 21, 1975 Tape 581 (Morning) PK - 2 constantly punished. And it is obvious, Sir, that to accuse an honourable member of attempting to foment rebellion is a libel. And I submit that my colleague should be allowed to state his point. Your Honour will then rule as Your Honour sees fit on the evidence presented. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair is aertainly willing to hear the honourable member for St. Barbe North, and if needs be will take the matter under advisement, and rule on it as early as possible. MR. F. ROWE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Now, Sir, at that particular time I appealed to the Chair on a number of occasions, on a point of order, to ask the Chair to direct the Member for Placentia East to retract that very serious charge. Sir, the Chairman at that time stated as you can .see from the verbatim report - "I must say . " the Chair does not have the powers of complete recall. In other words he could not remember or he did not hear the honourable Member for Placentia East say these words. the tapes, and this was rejected.

I at that time, Sir, asked for Now, Sir, my point of personal privilege is this, that when an honourable member stands up in this House and accuses other honourable members of inviting rebellion in every public building in this province that is a most serious charge. Now, Sir, I appeal to the Chair under the

section indicated by my honourable colleague, the Leader of the Opposition, I appeal to the Chair to invite the Member for Placentia East to retract the two charges - AN HON . MEMBER: Without qualification. MR. F. ROWE: · without qualification. The one that is documented here - they are inviting rebellion in every public building in this Province - and the one; Sir; I was not able to document in print because I could not find it on the tape up there where the member said that - I personally am approving of illegal action as long as it does not cause, any kind of illegal action as long as it does not cause bodily injury or destruction of property. I aek the Chair 1814

May 20, 1975 Tape 581 simply on a point of privilege to ask the Member for Placentia East to retract these statements without qualifications. PK - 3 1815

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 582 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Unless we get into some debate on this point of personal privilege right now, I shall take it under advisement and obtain a full transcript from the point at which the Hon, Member for Placentia - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Orde~, please! AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I shall obtain a full transcript of the proceedings from the point when the Hon. Member for Placentia East rose to speak until the adjournment of last night's proceedings.

I am not prepared to hear any argument re this matter at the present time. MR. AYLWARD: With respect, Mr. Speaker, I certainly feel if you are going to entertain - MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. AYLWARD: MR. SPEAKER: MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman, to a point of order. Order, please! - you certainly should both sides of the question. Order, please! To a point of order. Order, please! The Chair has ruled that it is not prepared to hear any comments or any discussion re this matter at the present time and shall rule on the matter as soon as possible. MR. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, if I may, to a point of order.

If a question of privilege has been submitted to the Chair, then you obviously intend to rule on it in the absence of any further argument. Well I certainly feel that the other side is entitled to make some submission to Your Honour before you make that decision. SOME HON. MEMBER: Hear! Hear! 1816

March 21, 1975 MR. AYLWARD: MR. SPEAKER: MR. AYLWARD: MR. SPEAKER: MR. AYLWARD: MR. SPEAKER: MR. AYLWARD: MR. SPEAKER: Tape no. 582 Now - Order, please! Just a moment, Your Honour - Order, please! If I may, a point of order. Order, please! This is a point of order, Your Honour. Order, please! Page 2 - mw AN HON. MEMBER: The privilege is - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! It is the custom of this House and any other House I guess, that when the Speaker rises, other members take their seats.

Now if the Chair decides that a valid point of privilege has been raised, the Chair cert.ainly is willing to hear argument re this matter. If no point of privilege has been raised, then that is probably the end of it. MR. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order. Mr. Speaker, what you are now deciding is that when any meJDber raises a point, before you hear any argument whatsoever from the other side, you are going to go out in your Chambers and decide that. I respectfully submit, Mr. Speaker, that the other party is entitled to make a submission on the point raised. MR. SPEAKER: MR. AYLWARD: MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! Re the point of order, Mr. Chairman. Order, please! The Chair has not said that it is not willing to hear any argument re this matter. The Chair has said that it is not willing to hear argument at this present time. Honourable members shall be given the chance at the proper time to express their views re this point of privilege. MR. AYLWARD: Before any ruling is made by the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Yes. 1817

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 582 Page 3 - mw MR. AYLWARD: 0kay, that is what I wanted. SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: This same privilege applies to any honourable member, of course. MR. AYLWARD: If I may, Mr. Speaker, to this point of order again. I want it abundantly clear myself that since I am involved in this, before any ruling whatsoever is made as to the merits or demerits of that, the other side is entitled to present argument. AN HON. MEMBER: Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: MR. AYLWARD: MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Have you all got that? Order, please!

The Chair has said that all honourable members to my left and to my right shall be given the opportunity. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, he is disregarding the rules. MR. AYLWARD: I am not disregarding the rules. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! llCR. SIMMONS: Mr~ Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Hermitage. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a matter of personal privilege - AN HON. 'MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. SIMMONS : Mr. Speaker, my colleague, the Member for St.

Barbe North has set forth the necessary circumstances and information because my matter of personal privilege is based on the same information as was laid out by my colleague from St. Barbe North. But just for the record, I want to rise and say that I, too, would invite the Speaker to ask the Member for Placentia East to withdraw without any qualification whatsoever the charges he made last night as documented by my colleague from St. Barbe North. M.'ll. EVANS: MR. SPEAKER: 1811 In your case, they will throw away the key. Order, please!

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 582 Page 4 PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. HON. L. BARRY (Minister of Mines and Energy) : Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to present a petition on behalf of the people of North Harbour, Placentia West. This is a petition, Mr. Speaker, which was organized by tb.e Lion's Club of North Harbour, members of the Lion's Club and which has been signed by, I believe, just about all of the residents of North Harbour. AIJd the prayer of the petition is to request that the Branch road and community roads of North Harbour be upgraded and paved.

They make the -request for the following reasons: First, the road has already been partially upgraded and can be lilade r~dy for pavement at very little cost to government, Secondly, all of the roads in the area have been upgraded and paved. A large number of men at North Harbour work at the refinery or at Clarenville and paving the road would cut travelling ~enses and prolong car life for these taxpayers. 1819

March 21, 1975 Tape 583 (morning) Finally they say that they cannot understand why the road was not designated for paving last summer when Southern Harbour, Sunnyside, and other roads in the district adjoining were paved within twenty miles of North Harbour. What was that? AN HONOURABLE "!EMBER: Inaudible. IB-1 MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, this petition comes at a very opportune time in that I am informed today that the road is in a very bad condition because of the, I suppose, it is Spring weather, although I say that at a peril, but the warm temperatures have caused the road to become soft and it is very difficult for men working outside the community to pass over this road. As a matter of fact, it is almost impassable Mr. Speaker. I have made representation to the Department of Highways to see what can be done to improve matters in a short term.

I ask that this petition · he tabled and referred to the department to which it relates in the hope that we can have earlier long term measures taken to improve the condition of the roads for North Harbour. MR. WOODWARn: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House support the prayer of the petition of the people of North Harbour in Placentia West. The Minister of Transportation and Communications is not in his seat today, l:,ut we have been hearing over the years a number of petitions And a great numher dealing with the upgrading and the paving of roads.

We look forward to hav:1.ng the Department of Transportation and r.ommunications publicize their five year plan and to designate what areas they were to do some work in. We have not heard it yet. So, Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House do support the prayer of the p_etitioP. We hope that the government will take action to correct all the bad road situations that exist in the province. We look forward to hearing the five year plan that the government have said they wou Id put forward to this province. We hope that the member for Placentia West ,;ill get the paving done in the North Harbour area. HON . E.

ROBERTS (LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION): Mr. Speaker, if we have f i nished on the gentleman's petition, may I present a petition on behalf 1820

March 21, 197 5 Tape 583 (morning) IB-2 of the citizens of Main Brook. I would think the Minister of Municipal Affairs would be particularly interested because it involves the problem ahout which a delegation from the Main Brook Council and I saw him last week. The prayer of the petition, Sir, is that the government take the steps necessary to provide the Community of Main Brook with an adequate water supply. The petition is signed by 211 citizens in the community which is just about every adult citizen of the community of ~ain Brook.

It is a petttion, it is an original, it has been signed in the original by the several petitioners, hut it is one of four copies of the petition that were made following a public meeting which was held on February 10, 1975, a month and a half ago. The petition, Mr. Speaker, put by the petitioners is really quite si.mp le. The Community of Main Brook does not now have an adequate water supply. The water supply which they are using is not adequate. It is not adequate in quantity and it is not a~equate in quality.

Some years ago, I think 19fR if memory serves me, the government made an initial survey to determine what it would cost to provide the adequate water supply. The cost was much higher than envisaged for the proposed cost, and at that time we were looking at a water and sewer system. There has been much discussion back and forth, many delegations, many phone calls, many letters. The matter has now come to the point where it is agreed I think that the community, a water supply would serve it. We do not need to look at the question of a sewer system as well. The delegation met last weekend.

I would say we had a very CDurteous hearing from the minister. The minister has undertaken to update the figures. We have tried the expedient of seeing if we could have artesian wells built to provide a water supply. That proved to be impractical. We are now left with oniy one possible solution, that is to bring water a matter of about two miles from the nearest possible water supply, a pond. It is also going to involve a pumping system, a very expensive system perhaps. It could be $200,000 or 1821

March 21, 1975 Tape 583 (morning) IB-3 $300,ono or possihly even more, but not too expensive when one realizes, Mr. Speaker, that this involves the future of this community, that without an adequate water supply, there will be no community. People cannot live there. People cannot 1822

March 21, 1975. Tape 584 RH - 1 continue to live. They have their homes there. They have their schools, They have a co111111unitY, a viable and fwictioning community but it cannot last with an adequate water supply. Now, I know that the minister has undertaken to have further investigations made with a view to raising the matter for his Cabinet colleagues with a view to seeing whether the government will fund the project this year. I do not propose to press that now, but I have been asked to present the petition and so I do, I support it without any reservation at all, Sir.

We hear a great deal of talk of priorities in government these days here and throughout Canada, AB far as I am concerned, there is nothing, Sir, that can possible be of greater priority than an adequate water supply. We are going to spend $30 million or $40 million in St. John's with substantial assistance from the Government at Ottawa to provide a water supply and that is well and good.

We are spending millions at other col!lllunities throughout the Island and that is well and good, but, Sir, Main Brook's needs, the 600 people in Main Brook, their need on an individual basis is just as great as that of any citizen of St. John's or any citizen of any community in the Province. I support the petition without any reservation and I do hope that the , collDllunityof Main Brook will very shortly get a positive answer from the minister, an answer saying that the costs have been determined, that the government are willing to provide the assitance that is necessary.

I might add in closing, that the people of Main Brook at this time on February 10 said that they were willing as a measure of their concern and of their almost desperation, Sir, to pay, each citizen, $20 per month towards the cost of a water system. I know of no place in this Province; Sir, where the water rates are that high, $240 per year, The average rate at present would be $7 or $8 for a community. I understand the government target rate is $12 per community. The people of Main Brook, Sir, 1823

March 21, 1975. Tape 584 RH - 2 who are not wealth, they are a hard working people, they are mainly loggers who work in the woods industry, they are willing to pay $20 per month. They are willing to accept the highest rate of any community in Newfoundland,if only they can get water. So, I present the petition in the hope that it will be acted upon favourable and will be acted upon quickly. MR. SPEAKER: , The honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HON. B. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, let me, first of all, say that I support the prayer of the petition presented by the Leader of the Opposition.

To further amplify my comments, just let me say, ?1r. Speaker, for the benefit of the Leader of the Opposition 1 as he is perhaps well aware, I think he is, I am very familiar with the area in question, Main Brook, Roddickton, Englee - places that are now resettled, Canada Harbour, Hooping Harbour, Williamsport, that whole area, and spent some considerable time in that part of the Province, and hence I am, cognizant of the needs of the people of Main Brook for a decent water supply.

As .a result of their recent delegation to my office with the Leader of the Opposition, we discussed at length how we could best tackle raising the funds and getting a proper water system there. Moves are underfoot within the department now to have a proper estimate done on a water system, for say, for the community and after those kinds of figures have been ascertained and put together, then this project will be put with the rest on our list for capital projects for 1975 and hopefully, that some work can begin before this year is finished.

REPORTS OF STANDING OR SPECIAL COMMITTEES: }UL SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. HON. E. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the report of 1824

March 21, 1975. Tape 584 RH - 3 matters transacted by the Department of Manpower and Industrial Relations during 1974, as well, the report of the Newfoundland Labour Relations Board for 1974 and the report of the Minimum Wage Board for 1974. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, last evening, la_te last evening, the Minister of Finance asked and as far as I know, was granted leave to table some documents. Have these been distributed? If so, - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Ah! I only have to ask and they come. Well, fine. Thank you, Sir. MR. ROBERTS: twelve hours late.

Typical of the llinister of Finance -. lie is MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Industrial Development. HON. W. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Minister of Finance who is not in his seat here today, I would like to table some - three special warrants which were recently signed by His Honour that cover the Legislative vote, $17,000; the Justice Department, $841,000; Transportation and Communications, $2,200,000. The additional funds were needed in the Legislative to cover salary increases for certain staff.

For justice, this is also salary increases and the collective agreements concluded last year with the Constabulary and the Fire Department and the additional funds for Transportation and Communications were to cover DREE coIIDilitments and overruns in construction. There is a copy here for the Opposition, Sir, if they so desire. 1825

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 585 Page l - mw ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN: MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. HON. B. PECKFORD (Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the answer to a question asked by the Ron. Member for Bell Island a week or so ago concerning legal fees on the West Coast, in relatton to mortgages that were done by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. So I hereby table the answer to that question. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Social Services. HON. A. J.

MURPHY (Minister of Social Services): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table an answer to a question by the Hon. Member for Bell Island on the Order Paper of March 13, with reference to the number of heads of families on social assistance as of January 1, 1973, January 1, 1974 and January 1, 1975. On January 1, 1973, Sir, we had 25,227. January 1, 1974 we had 21,715, a reduction of something like 3,500, Sir.

But tragically on January 1, 1975 there is an increase of approximately 100 on that which is due to a tremendous increase in a lot of areas 6f this province, Sir, of fishermen who were forced to get assistance for their families. I have a prepared statement ready for it on my estimates. I think there were some 1,208 families due to the late season of the ice going and the strikes and everything else. So I am very happy to table this answer. There are copies here for the press and so on and so forth. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to put a question to the Hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, Sir, and ask the minister if he is yet in a position to make an announcement on the funding of the Bell Island Town Council to carry on essential services and to replace old worn out water lines over there so people will not have to bring their water in buckets? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. PECKDORD: Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position yet to announce the action that the government intend to take to alleviate the financial 1826

March :u, 1975 Tape no. 585 Page 2 - mw straits that the town council presently find themselves in. It might be a week or ten days before I will be in a position to make that statement. The wheels are in motion and hopefully I will be able to make the statement at that time definitively on the whole question. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could the Hon. Premier tell the House what action he has taken to fulfill a promise made in 1971 and in 1972 to make the Bell Island ferry service a part of the provincial highway system? Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Hon.

Minister of Mines and Energy;Sir, is within hearing distance of my voice? If he is,the minister, I think, is on his way back to his seat - no, that is not the minister. I will wait for the minister to come in, Sir. I wonder if the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, Sir, co,uld give the House a report on whether or not either he or any of the officials of his department are involved in anyway in the strike of plumbers over here at the Health Science Complex? Are they being given any assistance to try to resolve this problem they have had with this come-from-a.way foreman t~at they have over there? MR.

SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations, BON.E.MAYNARD:(Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations): To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, there has not been any assistance requested from our department. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, would the Minister of Manpower care to inform the House if his department is involved in anyway in the strike at the Marystown Shipyard, If they are being given any assistance to try to resolve the dispute they are having down there with bringing in plumbers into Newfoundland, when we have plumbers in Newfoundland who can do the same work? MR.

MAYNARD: Again, Mr. Speaker, we have not been requested to provide any assistance. As I understand it, the strike at the 1827

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 585 Page 3 - mw Maeystown Shipyard is an illegal one, and certainly we do not get ~olved in illegal std.lees. For the Department of Labour to get involved, it Would mean the gove:rnment condones them. llowever, we have from time to time .helped parties to arrange an arbitration or s0111ething like that. But again we. have not had any requests fr0111 these people. 1828"

March 21, 1975 Tape 586 (Morning) PK - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that there are conflicting reports made by the Minister of Industrial Development and the Member for Port au Port concerning the possibility of a cement plant on the Port au Port Peninsula, would the Minister of Industrial Development care to clarify the situation? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Industrial Development. HON. C. W. DOODY (MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT): I can certainly tell you the situatio~, Mr. Speaker, with regards to the proposed cement facjlity in Port au Port.

I hope that will not conflict with the impressions that the honourable member has received. The situation is that some time ago the Department of Industrial Development introduced a company called Lehigh Cement to the area and they expressed an interest in establishing a facility out there. Subsequent to that we got them together with the BRINEX people who hold a concession for the limestone deposit on an area. knd the two companies together did a feasibility study on the market survey in the Eastern Seaboard of the United States.

Lehigh Cement unfortunately has seen fit to withdraw from the joint project because of the condition of the construction industry in the United States. !hey are over extended, they have invested heavily in other aspects of construction, condominium business. I understand the condominium business down in Flordia is not what it used to be a couple of years ago. In any event, they have found it necessary to withdraw from the project. The feasibility of the plant, the pre-engineering and so on has demonstrated that it is an economic and viable operation.

And with this in mind the BRINEX people have entered discussions with another company, with two actually, both Canadian companies, one of which has undertaken to do a market survey in the Northeastern part of the U.S. to try to get a piece of that market, in addition to their own central Canadian markets. 1829

March 21, 1975 Tape 586 (Morning) PK - 2 It is too early yet to say whether this second attempt will be a successful one. We hope it will. The indications are favourable. But it is too early to say at this time whether or not this second partner of BRINEX's will be more successful than the first one. As I said, Sir, the operation has been demonstrated to be a viable and feasible one. The market conditions are such at the present time as to make it difficult to finance it and to sell the package to the financial connnunity. But there is no question that this problem will be overcome. It is a matter of when.

Hopefully the new partner will be more successful than the original. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member for Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Hon. the Premier could enlighten the House-· if I could get the Hon. the Premier's attention there for a moment. Does the Hon. the Premier now have any additional information concerning Bowaters close downs in the current calendar year? How many do they anticipate? Can the Premier give us a progress report on what is happening concerning Bowaters? And if the market conditions have improved? Or are improving? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. the Premier. HON. F. D.

MOORES (PREMIER): I cannot give a progress report on Bowaters, Mr. Speaker, lfuat I can do is confirm the fact that every­ body knows that they are closing down. I have had contact with the company, they have advised me it is because of high inventories, the recessionary tendencies in the U.S. They certainly have not 1 upon request 1expressed that they were going to have any further close downs this year. And to the best of our knowledge they are not, but that is up to Bowaters to decide, and there is very little we can do about that. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr.

Speaker, can the honourable, I do not know if the Hon. the Premier wishes to answer this question concerning the Linerboard Mill. Have all the employees that were laid off at the Linerboard Mill been recalled? Will there be any major shut downs of the Linerboard Mill this year1 Any cutback in production? Could the minister give us a report on what is happening concerning the Linerboard Mill? 1830

March 21-, 1975 Tape 586 (Mornipg) PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Fisheries. :mt. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what employees the honourable Member for Bell Island is referring to. It has been reported to the Rouse before that the Linerboard Mill will be having some down time during the year, In fact, I think, there is going to be some down time now at the end of next week, for eight or ten days. And it is very likely that there will be down time later in the year also, because as all members of the ·House know the linerboard market is not good.

And as a -matter of fact the only company in the linerboard industry in North Ame:rican that has not had any down time up to now is Labrador Linerboard Limited • All the r.est of them have been hsving down time for a week, some of them as much as two weeks, every month. So there will be down time, The· first down time is going to be in the next week over the Easter period. 1831

March 21, 1975 Tape 587 (morning) IB-1 MR. NEARY: Does the minister anticipate any minor or major pennanent layoffs as a result of a cut back in production? Will employees who are now laid off, will they be recalled when the mill starts up again? MR . CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, I do not lmow of any employee laid off or whom the honourable ~entleman is talking about. I do not know of any other anticipated layoffs. Certainly if there are any employees that were not necessary at the mill or were found not to be necessary and they were laid off, well I do not want to disagree with that.

That would be a management decision. There are no layoffs that I know of nor are there any contemplated. 'MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Social Services could tell us if he is yet in a position to announce his day care progrannne, what assistance that department is going to give people who have applied to establish day care centers. Has he yet found the money in his estimates that he is reported to have said that he could not find this morning on radio1 MR . MURPHY: -He must he one of the greatest radio fans in the country, you know. Mr.

Speaker, no 1unfortunately I am not in a position at this moment to announce it. We haw• a few people who are very anxious to know just what is going to happen to day care money. We have homemaker money. We have the bl ind looking for money. We have so many more looking for money, but unfortunately, Sir, I am not in a position at this time until the actual budget is gone through, to know just how we can allowance it out to whom. All I am wondering if I had a bit of the $10 million that the member for St. Barbe North is going to throw away, I would not mind using that for some of my needs. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Spea ker, another question for the Minister of Social Services. I am r,lad he mentioned the blind, hecause that was my next question. Is the minister yet in a position to make an announcement concerning increased assistance for the blind people of the province as promised last year hy the minister? MR. ~ !RPHY: In audible. MR . NEARY: Over what they are getting now, special allowances for the 1832

March 21, 1975 Tape 587 (morning) IB-2 blind. The minister promised it last year. MR. MURPHY: No, there are no special - the minister promised no such thing. I would like that striken from the record, Sir. That is an absolute - I cannot say it is a lie - it is an untruth. I never made any such statement. I said I would see in the budget if there were monies available to give the blind an increase. I might lay aside here now any reference to a $75 allowance for the blind. If the blind people are in need, they do not only get $75.

They will get the same as any other person to fill the needs of their families or anything else. So, in other words, they come under a substantially p.reater allowance than just $75 as a blind allowance. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Is the minister aware that Miss Elizabeth Madden,director of legislation for the Canadian Council of the Blind in a public statement made recently said that she had received assurances from the minister that an effort would be made to bring the Newfoundland assistance level to a par with the Maritime Provinces?

Is the minister aware of that statement? MR. MURPHY: bring it up. MR. NEARY: I just told you I assured her we would do everythinp. to Yes, but the minister just denied having made any - MR. MURPHY: I never said. I said we would do everything to get it . I did not say we would. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MURPHY: We would do everything we could. MR. NEARY: Does the minister want to speak - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. MURPHY: I have been further in touch with Miss Elizabeth Madden who represents a group. I do not know. I am also in constant touch with Mr.

Eugene Pike of the Canadian National Institute for the Rlind. There are two different groups. I am sure that I do not know what the story is on it, but we have Miss Madden who makes statements of different kinds. I have yet to have a statement from Mr. Pike or anything else on it. So, as far as we are concerned, I assure her, as I assure everybody, 1833

M11rah 21, 1975 Tape Sll.7 (morning) IB-3 th11t Twill do everything in my power to get extra assistance f or them if the money is availabJ,e . That is all I can do. I do not say I am going to get it . I will do everything in my power to get it as I suppose does every minister of the crown . Say, for water and s ewerage, we will do everything jn our power to do it. That is all we can do. MR. NEARY: When can they expect an answer? MR. ~!URPHY: The second Tuesday of next week . MR. NEARY: Okay, Sir, we will be asking the minister another question the seconcl Tuesday of next week.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Arrogance again . 1-'R. NEARY: Sir, I wonder if the ~iniste r of Justice, Sir, would care to inform the House as to the position of a boat known as the ''Shi rley Blanche'' that is held in cus t ody by .the minister ' s department in Twill in gate . \.!hat is the position on this? 'Who is paying the security, the watchmen aboard this ship? When will a dec i sion be tal(.en by the minister's department to dispose of this matter that has 1'een going on now since sometime last year? 1834

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 588 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: I suspect, Mr. Speaker, that the Hon. Member for Bell Island is referring to a matter that is presently before the courts. If he is referring to the matter I think he is, the matter that came before a magistrate in a preliminary hearing in Gander, and the magistrate then ordered the accused to stand trial in the Supreme Court. It is indeed to the Supreme Court and not to my department.

If that is the matter, then it would be highly improper for me to comment on any case that is still pending in the courts of our Province. I am quite sure from that it is the case. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Is the -minister aware that this is a private matter, a private prosecution? MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, that question - MR. NEARY: And is the minister aware that that matter is not before the court? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! That question or matter attending the courts is completely out of order. MR.

HICKMAN: It is, totally out of order. MR. NEARY: No. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am merely asking the minister if he was aware of it? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! That type of question is out of order. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, - okay, I will not pursue it any further, Sir. I would like to point out to Your Honour that the matter is not before the court, the matter is before the minister's department and that is why I am questioning the minister on this matter because it is up to the minister to make a decision. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Order, please! 1835

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 588 Page 2 - mw The Hon. Member for-Bell Island is now proceeding to make a speech from the previous question asked. As such, he is certainly out of order. MR. NEARY: Okay, Sir, I will get back to the Minister of Mines and Energy. I would like to find out from the Minister of Mines what his department intends to do - and I have asked this question three or four years running, three years running - what his department intends to do with a fund of $30,090 or $40,000 that was accumulated by the former administration · through the sale of DOSCO assets and rentals from houses on Bell Island?

What is the minister intending to do about this fund, if anything? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. HON. L. BARRY (Minister of Mines and Energy): Mr. Speaker, if the Hon. Member for Bell Island never took the time to have a discussion with the Mayor of Bell Island, the Town Council of Wabana, - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

BARRY: - the Mayor of Wabana, he would have found out that this government have already communicated with the Town Council of Wabana and have indicated that government are prepared to have these funds released to the Town Council of Wabana for use to benefit the people of Bell Island, the purpose to which these funds are to be put to be worked out in consultation with the Department of Municipal Affairs, this department, and the Department of Industrial Development_ So within the very near future, I understand, there will be a meeting between the Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs, the Hon.

Minister of Industrial Development, myself and the Mayor and other representatives from the Town Council of Wabana to decide the best purpose to which these funds could be put. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question to the minister, Mr. Speaker. Is the minister aware that the Town of Wabana does not represent the whole of Bell Island, just a part of Bell Island? If so, if the money is being turned over to the municipality, would the minister 1836

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 588 Page 3 - mw care to tell us whether any of this money is going to be used to maintain regular municipal services? Or will it be earmarked for pensioneers, recreation and youth and other representative community projects? MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, first of all we are aware that the Town Council of Wabana, the municipal boundary)does not take in all of Bell Island. We are also aware, however, that this is the best vehicle in our opinion for ensuring that these funds are put to a use which will benefit all the people of Bell Island. }tr.

Speaker, I am not prepared to say at this tillle to what use these funds will be put until we have had our meeting with the Mayor and with the Town Councillors of Wabana and until we have had their input into just what tl,eir opinion is as to the best use these funds can be put to benefit all the people of Bell Island. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. Is the minister prepared to consider giving the outside areas, the areas outside the municipality, representation on any co11111ittee that may decide the use of these funds on Bell Island? MR. BARRY: Mr.

Speaker, we are prepared to consider representation from anybody on Bell Island as to how these funds should be used, to anybody on Bell Island, Mr. Speaker. We are not talking about forming any coDD11ittee. We are talking about meeting with the Mayor and the with the Town Co;_incillors with a view to deciding what use these funds will be put. We will consider representation by anybody else on or outside of the council, but we do not see any need for setting up a committee when we have the vehicle, the Town Council of Wabana there, which can be held responsible, Mr.

Speaker, for ensuring that these funds are put to a proper use. Unlike,I might say, Mr. Speaker, incidents that we have had in the past where funds have gone from government without the proper controls and have not been used, Mr. Speaker, to their maxilllum affect - 1837

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 588 Page 4 MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: MR. NEARY: MR. BARRY: Like Ru.ral Development. - either cm Be11 Island or elsewhere. Like the Rural Development Auth~rl ty;. This government are determined, Mr. Speaker, that when the taxpayers' dollars are being spent that they be spent through a body that·can: be held accountable and responsible to the use to which these funds are put. SOME RON. l1El'IBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. BARRY: This. we intend to do in this case, Mr. Speaker. 1838

March 21, 1975. Tape 589 RH - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Justice. Would the minister care to clarify what have now been considered to be strange statements made concerning promotions and seniority and so forth in thePolice Brotherhood. Would the minister care to clarify that situation because the police seem to be terribly upset about certain statements the minister made recently con­ cerning an agreement? HON. T.A. HICKMAN: We have a collective agreement with the Police Brotherhood and we follow the letter of that agreement and we will continue to do so. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Industrial Development, Sir, would care to tell the House whether negotiations for the reopening of the Green Bay Mining Company are going on or if they have ceased 1and if the Green Bay Mining Company now, is there is no possibility of reopening in the future? Does the Minister of Industrial Development care to coI1DUent on that? I am asking the minister about the Green Bay Mining Company. What is the situation there now? Are negotiations for reopening the Company ongoing or are there no negotiations? MR, SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Industrial Development. HON. W.

DOODY: No, Mr. Speaker, there are no negotiations going on now. It has been concluded that until the price of the mineral increases sufficiently in the world market the mine will have to remain closed. It is the matter of the difference between a profit and loss situation and it is predicated entirely on the price that they can get for the ore. The situation is as I just said. The mine is now closed. Hopefully, it will reopen just as soon as the markets repair themselves. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, a question for either the honourable Minister of Justice or th.e honourable the Premier or the honourable Minister of Health, whichever one has the answer, Sir, and I under- ' stand one of them does. Would either one of these gentlemen care 1839

March 21, 1975. Tape 589 to say whether or not they have received representation from anybody on Bell Island concerning a gentleman who was fired recently from the Newfoundland Telephone Company for a breach of the Secrecy Act? Has the Premier's office been notified of it? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Health. RH - 2 HON. DR. A. ROWE: This matter has been brought to my attention yesterday morning - I had been out of the Province for two days - the matter which is being referred to. I have asked that I be provided with full particulars and I have nothing further to say on that at this point of time. MR.

NEARY: A question to the honourable minister, Sir. Would the honourable minister care to table the particulars that he has been handed in the House, so that we can all have a gander at it? DR. ROWE: That will be decided at a later date. I have not even had the result of my investigation yet. So I can hardly say whether or not it will be tabled to the House. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, would the minister care to indicate what action he intends to take on this matter? It involved a couple of the doctors on Bell Island. DR. ROWE: }lr. Speaker, I have heard only nmiors so far. I have no facts of the case.

I have asked for particulars and an inquiry. I can say nothing further than that at the present time. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Justice could tell the House, Sir, whether or not crown prosecutors have yet been appointed for Corner Brook or Grand Falls? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: In your estimates? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Sure, why not? HR. SPEAKER: The honourable Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, the crown prosecutor in - We have had a crown prosecutor in _Corner Brook now, I thought - I disagree with 1840

March 21, 1975. Tape 589 RH - 3 the statement by the honourable the Minister of Social Services that the honourable gentleman from Bell Island continuously listens to the radio. 1 am sure he does not . He missed an announcement - Oh! It must be nine months ago, that a very capable crown prosecutor in the person of Mr. Getard Martin) known as Stan Martin,has been retained when he left my depart­ ment in December of 1973 and has been acting as crown prosecutor on the West Coast of the Province, indeed, and Labrador and he has done work in Centra l Newfoundland since that time .

In Central Newfoundland, I will not name the gentleman, but we have a crown prosecutor who will be assuming duties this year, 1975, in Central Newfoundland and 1841

!larch 21, 1975 Tape 590 (Morning) PK - 1 MR. HICKMAN: I would avail of this opportunity to indicate to the House that for the first time since I have been in political life,lawyers are beginning to show some sense of public willingness to serve the public of this province, and to work for my department as Crown prosecutors at a reasonable salary and to gain the experience that inevitably flows from that position, the exposure that one gets to the courts that would not be available to those in public practice with the same continuity. And I am delighted to see that the legal profession is responding to that need.

And from here on in as far as Crown prosecutors are concerned, and junior lawyers are concerned, I do not anticipate any real problem. If any honourable gentlemen in this House or outside can assist me in persuading my colleagues at the Bar that a great service can be performed to the people of Newfoundland by applying for and becoming legislative draftsmen I very earnestly solicit their support. As this House is undoubtedly aware our chief legislative draftsman,whose work is unsurpassed in Canada as a legislative draftsman 1Mr. R. Austin Parsons was - AN HON. MEMBER: Is that a fact or is it your opinion? MR.

HICKMAN: I know. It is not my opinion, it is a fact - compelled to retire last year at a very early age because of ill health and we have not been able to replace him. May I say for the benefit of all honourable gentlemen,one of the procedures that is required under the Constitution is that when all the Acts are passed here I am obliged after the House closes to submit them to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council with a short reasons, signed,and these Acts are then all transmitted to the Governor-General, and the Governor-General in turn transmits them to the appropriate ministers of the federal government.

This is done ostensibly to see whether or not the Government of Canada will exercise its prerogative of disallowance. What really happens is that these Acts are very carefully considered by the Department of Justice to see if this House have inadvertently invaded the jurisdiction of the Parliament of Canada. 1842

March 21, 1975 Tape 590 (Morning) PK - 2 I was told by the chief legislative draftsmen of Canada1who incidentially is a Newfoundlander, Mr. Ryan, a Newfoundland lawyer named Ryan - from Port- .aux-Basques - that they were never able to find

an Act passed by this Legislature drafted by Austin Parsons that ever invaded, that went beyond the jurisdiction of this Legislature. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. HICKMAN: But this - But no, no, I have been waiting for this opportunity - this gentleman, Mr. Parsons who has done so much work for this Legislature for the past fifteen years, in my opinion, you know, deserves recognition. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKMAN: MR. SPF.AKER: MR. HICKMAN: Inaudible. Order, please! And I was told - Inaudible. Order, please! I am being harassed, Mr. Speaker, Order, please!

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I would ask that Your Honour rule that I am entitled to be heard in silence. And this harassment is throwing me off. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Hon. Minister of Justice is certainly entitled to be heard in silence. I would submit that his is taking an unusually long time in answering this question and also that the thirty minutes for the question period has now expired. HON. MEMBERS: Inaudible. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Industrial Development. MR. DOODY: With your permission, Sir, just before the question period expires.

A little while ago the Member for Bell Island asked a question relative to the Marystown Shipyard strike. I have just been informed that the man,ger met this morning for two hours with the union executive and the membership. The situation has been ironed out, the background reasons for hiring the outside people were explained 1 and the union agreed to resllllle work on Monday morning. The strike down 1843

March 21, 1975 Tape 590 (Morning) PK - 3 there is over. MR. NEARY: Hear: Hear! 1844

March 21, 1975 Tape 591 (morning) ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion that the House do now resolve itself into Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Page thirty-five, the estimates, 612-nl. MR. OTTENHEIMER: If I may now I just wish to get some notes on that subhead here. Could I ask you the page, Mr. Chairman, please? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! If the honourable minister would permit. There is some question as to whether we have in fact arrived at 612. Pardon. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: 611-07. MR. F. ROWE: That is right. That is right. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 611-07 carry? IB-1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Chairmen, just briefly 1 because,if I reca11,1ast night did seem to get off the point for justs couple of hours or so and just off it. However, under this vote which is the capital vote, I recall pointing out to members of the co111111ittee last night what it was, but I will go over it again because in the heat of argumentation it may have been lost. Thie is a vote of $500,000 as a capital expenditure vote. The breakdown is essentially $300,000 for renovations to buildings, the former Sanitorium. This will allow an additional 300 students to be processed for a year.

Most of this is in the areas of medical technology and paramedical technology, nursing assistants. That is where the bulk of the $300,000 will be involved. Then the $200,000 is for equipment, some replacing and some new. That essentially is the $500,000 \lllder that. On motion 07 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 612-01 carry? _MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Chairman, I will give an explanation in general of the material covered here. That of course, it says at the heading there, is vocational training. Really it is vocational traing and adult education.

I recall in the opening statements giving a fairly detailed outline of the adult education programme, a breakdown of numbers in the kind of activities, the academic and non-academic craft training and that. 1845

March 21, 1975 Tape 591 (marning) So, I do not plan to go into that now unless there are some specific matters that people waJ!..t looked at, IB-2 This vote here of course refers to the district vocational schools across the Province. The overail number of students, of people served, "1111 be approximately 5,300, That i .s not counting the 4,000 in pre-vocational progTaimnes. If one counts them. then it beeOJBes about 9•,300. Without countiJlg the pre-vocational it is s.300, They are apprOltimate because with all of these schools there is a certain amoun.t of conµng and going bec:.ause they are abort courses.

The breakdown between the manpower and p~ovincial students would be approximately on the overall year, fifty, fifty, Fifty per eent each one. I have the break41l1ffls for the various schools, and the various courses and there is a great deal obvio1l.8ly of detailed 'information, To the best of my knowledge bonpurable gentlemen may not wish that, but if so, I can read it through or make it available to the111 by handing it to them if they wish. 1846

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 592 Page 1 - mw MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg): The Hon. Member for Labrador North. MR. M. WOODWARD: Mr. Chairman, if I may make a few brief remarks on vocational training, which I think is very important. My chief concern and I suspect the concern of a number of people throughout this province is what type of training or what sort of curriculum will be set up for students to train, to take advantage of employment in the offshore and exploration industry, which is, as we understand today, coming about very rapidly?

Maybe the minister can have a few words and tell the eo11111ittee what steps his department is taking in this respect in conjunction with Industrial Development and Mines and Energy? I know it is a big concern of a lot of people in Labrador, where we have very few skilled trades, who would like to take advantage of getting involved. They hear so much about what is happening, the offshore oil discoveries, the natural gas, the uranium deposits that will be developed within a very short period of time, but no one has taken the trouble, Mr.

Chairman, to see that those people can fit into that type of industry and take advantage of the jobs that will be offered. We have had the unfortunate circumstances over the years where we have had an influx of skilled trades, not only from the Island of Newfoundland but from all across Canada, coming in and our people, which are primarily a labour force, truck drivers and that, are being envious of other people coming in taking the good jobs, getting good accommodations, because they are skilled tradesmen and the industry depends so heavily on them.

We have not only seen this take place in Goose Bay, but I suspect that if you look at the Labrador City-Wabush area, there is a certain amount of discrimination in the ranks of the labour force in respect to skilled trades and unskilled trades. I would like to think in terms, oflmaybe,with our younger generation coming up that this government would see fit to bring that gap closer together by offering in a curriculum at a vocational training school, the type of trades. No, I do not 1847

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 592 Page 2 - mw know if the minister is familiar or if the Minister of Mines and Energy is familiar with what type of skills that people will have to have in order to take advantage of this employment. But i~ is very important. I think the timing should be now. If we .are going to fit our people into that industry we should immediately be looking at a curriculum that is going to be set up in our vocational training schools so the young people can train for those particular jobs.

I do not know what effort the government have taken, but I am sure it is very vital and important, as far as the people, not only in Labrador, but indeed the people throughout the whole of the island, I understand, as I mentioned here yesterday, that very few of our people have taken advantage, although we have had drilling off the Labrador Coast over the last three years, Other than having a cook's helper, and maybe a dispatcher getting involved in employment in that industry, all the other people have been imported, and we have heard very little of it. So maybe the minister on this particular subhead, Mr.

Chairman, can elaborate somewhat on what direction his department or his government are going to take in this respect. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Chairman, certainly the honourable gentleman from Labrador North has raised some very important and very interesting points there.

In general at the College of Fisheries, of course, instruction is given in a wide-range of offshore activities in preparation of seamen, mates, navigation, electrical, electronic technology afloat in these areas, The companies involved in exploration, in terms of the drilling, the actual drilling operations, the companies involved wish to and indeed, to the best of my knowledge, sort of insist in doing their own training, their own on the job training, in running their own training programmes. We too 1848

March 21, 1975. Tape 593 RH - 1 at the College of Fisheries have a wide area of activities certainly related to various offshore technologies. We are also studying, with the recent and encouraging finds off the Coast of Labrador 1 we are studying the possibility of a course at the Happy Valley Vocational School.

In the area of servicing and the technologies or skills required on an onshore basis, on an onshore basis, because as I say, in the general offshore from the marine technology and marine electronics and seamanship, etc., in that broad area, the College of Fisheries is involved and, of course, there have been co-operate ventures with the College of Fisheries and different district vocational schools. As a matter of fact, at the Vocational School in Happy Valley there is a unit especially designed for this. So, that essentially is the situation.

As honourable gentlemen may know as well, there is what is called a Manpower Needs Committee which is a join~ Federal Provincial Committee. It is made up entirely of officials, the actual Committee is, but it has many subcOllDDittees. It is made up of the Deputy Ministers of Education, provincially, Manpower and Industrial Development, somebody from Intergovernmental Affairs and the Minister of Fisheries and then the federal component, people from the Federal Department of Man­ power and a representative of DREE.

Now, while this committee is entirely made up of officials, they have numerous subcommittees in practically all areas of training and employment opportunities. But I certainly assure the honourable gentleman that we are aware of the very important opportunities which hopefully will develop for employment for Newfoundlanders with the development of our offshore through the vocational school system and through the College of Fisheries. We are doing a certain amount now. We are planning to; we are doing a certain amount now in terms of the offshore navigational or marine oriented activities. 1849

March 21, 1975. Tape 593 RR - 2 I point out that from the point of view of drilling and what is associated with that, companies insist on doing their own training and that we are exploring the possibility cf starting a course with particular reference to the onshore skills associated with offshore development. CAPTAIN WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, it surprises me to hear that there are so many imports, more or less, working along on this oil drilling and components. We have oil drilling for so many years now and has there not been a special effort made by the Trade School to train men for this specific purpose?

As far as the marine officers, navigators and mates and cooks and etc. etc., that is an ongoing thing. They are being trained every year, but I would have thought that with this drillin g going on off on the Grand Banks, that some special effort would have been made to accommodate and train those men. There is no reason with the unemployment that we have in this Country today, in this Province, there is no reason why anyone should be brought in to do a job that our own men can be trained to do. HR. OTTENHEIBER: Mr.

Chairman, I should point out that t _raining has been going on the past number of years in these areas. In the offshore technology area, in terms of, you know, work aboard the - what do they call it? It is not - the drilling rigs, work aboard the drilling rigs, what is related, you know, to navigation, to marine electronics, to mechanics, to seamanship, to what is called ship's cooking. in all of these areas training is going on and this is related to the employment opportunities.

But I pointed out, in the actual drilling opera .tions and what is immediately associated with that, these companies insist on doing their own training. They insist on doing their own training, but in the various offshore activities of a marine nature, then we have been 1850

March 21, 1975. Tape 593 RH - 3 training and are continuing to train. What we are looking into and hoping to start in September would be, of course, related to the onshore activities, but naturally there is no sense having a couple of hundred 1851"

March 21, 1975 Tape 594 (morning) IB-1 or this or that, people trained in the onshore technologies, you know, years before there is going to be any employment onshore for them. It is a thing which has to be carefully timed with not so much the exploration but the exploitation because the onshore activity to a very large extent is going to - the timing has to coincide with the bringing the product ashore. In terms of the marine activities, the sea activities, training has been going on on a continuing basis. CAPT. WINSOR: Is the training for a specific type of work? MR.

OTTENHEIMER: For example, in the courses, certainly it is relevant to this. I think there would be two courses, one for 1 let us say,marine electronics for somebody on a ship which is moving and marine electronics on a rig which is usually stationary because from what I understand the electronics is essentially the same. Certainly the needs of offshore marine installations are totally borne in mind. I know that the faculty at the College of Fisheries are extremely aware of this and keep it under continuing review.

The training that is going on in these marine areas is relevant and related to the various skills and occupations required in the employment opportunities which could develop on offshore rigs. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I think my two colleagues raised a very important question, c-ne which I was about to raise. We get in here into a sort of a cross over with the College of Fisheries and we are discussing the salary under the vocational training. Sir, you know, it was this administration that promised in the Spring of 1973 that there was going to be an Offshore Manpower Needs Conference.

Now, since then, we have learned from the minister that they have scrapped that particular idea of having the conference. So, one naturally asks the question, what specifically has the government done in the vocational schools of this Province to try to ·prepare students in order that they may obtain employment in offshore mineral and oil exploration. The minister suggests that they are aware of it and it is borne in mind and all this sort of thing. One question I would like to put to the minister is, you know, what efforts - he stated 1852·

March 21, 1975 Tape 594 (morning) IB-2 that the companies insist on training their own personnel. Now, does that mean personnel from outside of Newfoundland or personnel in Newfoundland or a combination of both? The question I would like to put to the minister is what efforts have the government or his department made to get the various companies involved to train Newfoundlanders where obviously jobs are very badly needed, to train Newfoundlanders either on the job or to have these companies have an imput into the vocational or the technical or the Fisheries College of our Province?

What effort has this administration made or efforts has this administration made to get the companies to train Newfoundlanders, number one,and also to develop programmes within our own vocational or technical institutions so that our young Newfo=dlanders will have a greater opportunity to gain employment in what is a very skilled and technical field?

I re•lize that the personnel of the various institutions bear it ia mind and are concerned and are aware of the job opportunities and the need for training, but what emphasis has this government put on ensuring that companies train Newfoundlanders, number oneland have a certain imput into the make up of the curricnlum of the vocational schools in this particular cast. That is the first question. 1853

March 21, 1975 Tape 595 (Morning) PK - 1 Secondly, Sir, the minister might have answered the question during some stage of the Col!IDlittee, I would only require a brief answer, and I will make the question brief. The minister announced last year this extended day concept for the vocational schools in order to acconnnodate students that would otherwise not be accommodated in the vocational schools. I was wondering whether the 1,000 additional students that was anticipated, extra vocational students, whether that number has been achieved?

And whether the problem has been resolved, that is, the problem of lack of accommodations for students wanting to get into the vocational schools of the frovince? So it is a two part ques -tion! How many extra students have the vocational schools been successful in attracting to the extended day? And has this resolved the problem of students wanting to get into vocational schools? The third question, Mr. Chairman, is the vocational wing concept to existing schools. The minister mentioned this during Committee stage.

And I would like to get some indication from the minister as to the nature of the programmes or the curriculum that is anticipated for these vocational wings on these existing regional and central high _ schools. Whether the curriculum will be similar to existing vocational schools or whether it will be pre-vocational school education that will be .taking place in these particular vocational wings that the minister has referred to? MR. OTTENBEIMER: Mr. Chairman, essentially three questions raisec there with respect to the efforts of the government.

The ~raining of Newfoundlanders for the offshore employment opportunities. I think I have answered that. We are doing that through the various marine technology courses, vocational courses, and short courses at the College of Fisheries. This is for the marine area in terms of the servicing industries inshore, this through the appropriate subcol!IDlittee in this overall manpower needs approach.

There is contact with people involved in the industry in the development of appropriate areas of instruction for employment opportunities which will develop on shore, when in fact, you know, the product is coming on shore or getting close to coming on shore or one can anticipate when in fact 1854

March 21, 1975 Tape 595 (Morning) PK - 2 it will get on shore. With reference to the extended day, which we announced last year in accordance with maximizing the use of our facilities. One hundred additional students were provided for at the College of Trades, and 440 additional ones throughout the district vocational schools for a total of 540.

There were an additional 485 places which could have been made available, and indeed for approximately 200 of those, and these would be for vocational students,it would not be all in one place, it could be one or two in this class, one in that class, and that would be in the vocational schools throughout the Province. So 540 additional places were filled. There was the possibility of 485 additional places. We advertised when there were vacancies for up to 200 and were unable to fill them. As I say I should point out that these are vocational schools across the Province.

It could be that John Smith would apply in such a place to go take such a course, and maybe he would not get in, it would be filled. It could well be that the same course would have been available in a vocational school in another area, and in many cases apparently, you know, John Smith did not go then and take up that place. So in general 540 additional places were used, and there was the potential of 485 additional places. I should point out that last September across the Province we did advertise for these additional places.

Now there was a third matter the gentleman raised, yes, with reference to the pre-vocational wings. 1855

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 596 Page 1 - mw As far as the high school people would be concerned, the purpose here would be a broadening of educational experience, and a kn·owledge of skills required in industry. It is an educational programme and obviously that is what the emphasis will be on. Activities could be in working with wood, working with metals, home economics and industrial crafts in these areas. But I emphasize that the purpose behind it would be a broadening of educational - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes.

This is not to prepare people to go out to any specific job but rather to broaden their educational experience to give challenge, initiative and interest to people whose interests and aptitudes are not exclusively or primarily, perhaps to a large extent, academic to keep them interested and involved. The concept would be that these centres would also be Manpower and Co111111unity Education Centres and that various adult educatia°n programmes in areas could centre around those, including the upgrading, which is undertaken by the provincial department in conjunction with Canada Manpower.

That is ' certainly the upgrading courses and perhaps some additional ones as well so that they would have the educational component and reason for being and then the Manpower - Co111111unity Education one for the adult or non-day school population as well. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I find it rather amazing that the minister mentioned the fact that there were approximately 200 student places not filled when they implemented this extended day programme in the vocational schools.

And the minister has given a satisfactory answer or reason for that and that is that, you know, a student may apply for a certain course if he lives in Cook's Harbour and wants to go over to St. Anthony, and that course happens to be filled in St. Anthony and the opening may exist down in Corner Brook or some other

section of the Province where he cannot afford to pay for his board and lodging and this sort of a thing a little way from home. 1856

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 596 Page 2 - rr.w I might ask the minister in most of these cases, would these be students who would qualify for the Provincial Student Allowance PrograD111e rather than the Canada Manpower Allowance Programme7 Because I think this is where the problem really lies that there is a vast difference between the provincial allowance for students attending vocational schools and that for students attending vocational schools or the College of Trades and Technology, who qualify under the Canada }lanpower Student Aid Programme or whatever, you know, the actual name of it is.

This is why, Sir, that we have advocated that the Province undertake to negotiate with the federal government the possibility of working out a formula whereby various students in the different post-secondary institutions in this Province come under similar and equitable student allowance or student aid programmes. Because really some students are being discriminated against, and I think that the minister has actually given us evidence of this very thing. That, you know, now that the space has been made available, students are not going into them simply because they obviously cannot afford to go to another area.

Now we cannot stick up vocational schools all over the Province, but surely we can formulate some programme in order that students can be mobilized, can go to a vocational school where an opening exists. I would like the minister just to reflect on, you know, what his administration or his department is doing about negotiating with Ottawa in order to formulate a student aid policy for all post-secondary educational students in order that we have an equitable programme no matter which institution or what type of programme a student wishes to qualify for.

Because, I think, we all have to admit that the provincial government simply does not have the resources to put into effect a Provincial Student Aid Programme nor a University Aid Programme equivalent to the Canada Manpower Training Allowance Programme. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Hr. Chairman, essentially what the honourable gentleman is referring to, of course, is different rates of payment between the provincial students and the technical schools, vocational schools and the ~anpower rates of pay. Of course, this 1~ 1857

March 21, 1975 Tape 597 (morning) IB-1 something totally outside the Province's jurisdiction in the sense of what is paid out in Manpower allowances. The Manpower allowances can go anywhere from approximately $50 a week to $135 a week depending upon if the person is married and how many dependents one has. The vast majority of Manpower students would be married. The vast majority of provincial students would be unmarried. Of course, the Manpower allowances are sort of geared to the labour market.

If1 for example, the federal government in all the money it gives for Manpower payments, for payments in Manpower allowances, if that were given or made available to the Province and the Province then added what it made available in provincial allowances and the discretion were left to the Province upon the allowance payment, then obviously one could have a uniformity. But that is just not the case, and the Federal Department of Manpower is very zealous in perserving its own independence there, of paying its own rates to those whom it recommends for training in the various vocational schools.

As I say, if the federal government were to agree to make this money available, then you could get a uniformity, but it has not and indeed it does not appear at all to be willing to do that. Representation has been made on a number of occasions because now in order to qualify for Manpower allowance, in order to be a Manpower student, the person has to be out of school for at least a year.

In some cases - the number of cases could perhaps be exaggerated - there could well be some cases where two people are sitting side by side taking the same course - this would be an example of what could happen and no dot!bt does happen occasionally - you would have two people sitting side by side in the same vocational school taking the same course, one out of school a year and one out of school two years. The one out of school two years would be recognized by the federal government as a Manpower student and woul~ get the federal rates.

The person who had not been out of school over a year, would not be recognized by Manpower as a Manpower student and would not qualify. · 1858

March 21, 1975 Tape 597 (morning) IB-2 On a number of occasions representation has been made to the Manpower people, but they insist upon the one year break between leaving school and qualifying for Manpower. So, as long as these things continue, then there is no way of having a policy there. On motion 01 to 03 carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 04 carry? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Chairman, on 04. Now, there is an amendment to be made. Perhaps I will explain it briefly and ask my colleague, the honourable Rouse Leader, to then m~ke the amendment.

Actually there is an increased amount of money will be there, but the expenditure and the revenue are the same. Through some clerical or other error or some other reason, the amount of $300,000 presently included as expenditure under this subhead should be increased to $2.8 million. The revenue associated with the total vocational training expenditures which presently are shown as $7,750,000 should be increased to $10,250,000 since the amount is 100 per cent returnable with the federal government.

This is what is called the - and the federal government comes up with initials and sometimes you cannot even have acronvms DMI-UIC projects, Department of Manpower and I111111igration-Unemployment Insurance Commission projects. 1859

March 21, 1975. Tape 598 RH - 1 This is a special programme that the Federal Department of Man­ power has made available. The vast majority of people involved in it are unemployment insurance recipients. There are some welfare recipients and we were hoping to be able to broaden the number, to increase the number, and these are courses, usuallyof fairly short duration for six, eight weeks in a vast array of areas. There are basic upgrading courses and these upgrading courses are continuous intake. In other uords, people come and sort of set their own pace.

Then there are, for example, twelve week courses in welding, upgrading; twelve week courses in carpentry)upgrading; twelve week courses preparation for service station attendant; twelve week course~ in brick and block laying; motor vehicle repair, body work, up~rading, twelve weeks; hostess trainin~ and catering, and these are held in centres throughout the Province, practically·every area of the Province. So, I would now ask if the House Leader would move that amendment. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I move that 612-04 be increased by $2.5 million so that it will be $2.8 million.

Just to keep the record straight, although it is not part of the estimates, 10-03 which shows related revenue be changed from $7,750,000 to $10,250,000. }fll. ROWE: nr. Chairman, presumably this is the reason why the stated reason the minister just gave, is the reason why the revised estimates for 612-04, Manpower Training Programmes, is $1,100,000 this year as compared to the estimate of $300,000 last year. That is the reason. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: That is correct. MR. ROWE: Thank you. MR. OTTENlIEillER: (First

part inaudible) and the part of it that was operative in the fiscal year about to end. 1860

March 21, 1975. Tape 598 On motion, 04 as amended, carried. On motion, 06 through 08, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall 613-04 carry? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Chairman, on 613-04, the College of Fisheries - Again I would like to give an overall view of activities and nlllllbers involved in various training programmes RH - 2 at the College of Fisheries.

Here the number of Manpower students, the percentage of Manpower students is very high, approximately eighty per cent which would leave twenty per cent provincial, approximately 1,041 manpower students, 280 provincial and then a small number, 65 or so who would be evening students. As honourable members know, also of course, in the course of a year the number of people being served by the College of Fisheries would be much larger than the actual enrollment at the eollege because there are the travelling schools held in many areas of the Province and practically all over the Province.

These are courses of three and four weeks duration. I will just read out a few of the places, not all of them: Paradise River, Raleigh, Wareham, Old Bonaventure, Morton's Harbour, Beaumont, Wesleyville, Bay de Verde, St. Shott's, etc. I think the general work of the College of Fisheries is quite well known.

They are doing a great deal of work up there now in the upgrading through Manpower, the upgrading area 1 and then they have the departments of electrical engineering technology, food technology, mechanical engineering technology, nautical science, naval architecture and then, of course, the extension service which is for the itinerant schools throughout the Province. MR. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to ask one question on the College of Fisheries.

Last year when I contacted certain officials of the College of Fisheries in order to ascertain, you know, whether or not they were particularly satisified with the grants made to the Fisheries College l 1861

March 21, 1975 Tape 599 (Morning) it was brought to my attention that their basic problem with the College of Fisheries at that time was not lack of money for purposes of expansion or the Fisheries College itself, but their basic problem was the difficulty in getting students to come in PK - 1 to take certain courses at the Fisheries College. In other words the suggestion was made that many of our Newfoundlanders are sort of turning away from 1and not availing themselves of,the courses at the College of Fisheries.

Now that may be in part due to the fact that, you know, many young Newfoundlanders had to leave relatively small distant communities and come into the City of St. John's to study courses in the area of_fisheries, and this may have been alleviated now by the fact that I understand the government are increasing its programme of bringing the Fisheries College out into the field which I think is a co11DDendable idea, and I know in my own district in certain instances the courses that have been conducted by the Fisheries , College in some of the communities of St.

Barbe North have been absolutely invaluable to the fishermen. And presumably this is the same sort of thing thtt is occurring throughout the Province. I wonder if the minister could indicate to the Committee, Sir, whether or not this problem still exists of getting students into the College of Fisheries itself. And if this is so, is the alternative policy or emphasis of the College of Fisheries going to be to go into the field, go to where the fishermen are at, if I can put it that way, and try to give sort of almost on the job training,sort of, progra11U11e11. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Hr.

Chairman, one point I should make and that is that the employment opportunities for graduates of the College of Fisheries are excellent, are absolutely excellent. With respect to the honourable gentleman referred to the difficulty in recruiting students for certain areas 1 ,, the main area where the difficulty was people wlio would go and then would have jobs at sea, and thinking particularly of,you know,at sea aboard trawlers where they are so long and back so long, at sea, you know, for a period of time before they- 1862

March 21, 1975 Tape 599 (Morning) PK - 2 get home. this was where the difficulty was in recruitment, and not because the employment opportunities were not there but because it was a different way of life than life on land. That is essentially it. Now I think that the College has made significant progress there in two ways, (1) as the honourable gentleman referred to and that is the stepped up programme of travelling schools,or bring the College to as many communities as possible.

And also they have a very broadly based programme of going to various high schools on career days and education days, and you know any number of reasons, the College of Fisheries has a very broadly based programme of keeping in touch with high schools, of being available for counselling of high school students, pointing out various career opportunities which would . be available to them, and through d.ifferent courses in the College of Fisheries. So I think these two moves have help alleviate the problem.

But there is no doubtr in . that there is a reluctance on the part of a large number of young people to be interested in employment . opportunities which will keep them at· sea. I would certainly hope that the College will be able to change that outlook because in Newfoundland there are going to be employment oppo.rtunities for people at sea, and they are very good ones, and the pay is quite good, living conditions are good, we are right here surrounded by water, and hopefully that, you know, that attitude will change. But,of course, 1863

March 21, 1975 Tape 600 (morning) all the government or the College of Fisheries or anybody can do is point out the opportunities that are available and encourage and do everything possible to encourage people, but naturally you cannot force them .• IB-1 MR. F. ROWE: M'r.

Chairman, it is a serious problem because basically what we are doing here is changing the whole social structure of the fisheries in this province where people over the centuries have been more or less usedto a kind of an inshore fishery situation where they harvest the pr_oducts. of the sea and at the same time grow vegetables and this sort of a combination.

I thin~ that what we really need here I would not go so fa; as to recommend that George McLean make up a film or something like · that to advertise the opporttmities available at sea, but, Sir, I would suggest that the government could take the ·initiative in. co-operation with the College of Fisheries and really put on a; not hard sell, but a very dynamic programme to encourage and entice and point out the benefits of going to sea, and to point out and make comparisons with other countries of the world where fishermen go to sea· for very long periods of time.

Probably,. as the 1-<inister of Industrial Development suggests, probably when this - I did not want to get into that realm for obvious reasons - probably when ·this whole strike situation is settled to the satisfactjon of both the trawlermen and the companies, if there is satisfaction on both sides, we may have that problem solved. It is as simple as that.

In the event that we conti~ue to have this-problem of students being reluctant to enroll in courses related .to de~p sea fisheries and having to leave home for long periods of tjme, I would suggest that it is incumbent upon the government in comb-ination with the College of Fisheries to put on a very effective advertising campaign to try to attract young Newfoundlanders into this field which if we do not exploit, Mr.

Chairman, if Newfoundlanders do not exploit our own resource, it is usel~ss for this provincial government to call upon the federal government to make certain demands at the Law of ·the Sea r.onference because what will happen, 1864

March 21, 1975 Tape 600 (morning) IB-2 of course, we will make certain demands for jurisdiction over the Continental Shelf or 200 m:lles whichever is the furthest point from land, we make the demands, we get them and the next thing you know it is discovered years in the future that neither Newfoundland nor other parts of Canadapossibly are exploiting the fisheries resource off our shores. So, I hope we are never caught in that very embarrassing position. If we make certain demands for jurisdiction over a certain marine area, we have to ensure that our people are going to exploit that.

I do not think it is none too soon, Sir, for the government to put on this very strong campaign to attract people into that particular resource because it is a resource that will bring money into the pockets of the people involved and will bring revenue, very badly needed revenue, into this Province. If we do not exploit it, other foreign countries will. On motion 613-04 and 07 carried. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Chairman, here we are on the vote for Memorial University of Newfoundland. As can be seen, the total here is of a grant-in-aid, $31 million up from $25 million last year, the revised estimate.

Therefore, an increase of $6 million. I informed the co111Dlittee in my opening remarks that I would give the breakdown of the vote, the various departments of the university, 1865

l1arch 21, 1975 Tape 601 (Morning) and what I will do rather than read read out so many hundred thousand dollars or .s.o many hundred, I will round it out, all right? And most of these things are self-evident. The Faculty of Science, and that is the various Science Departments, chemistry, physics etc., $5.6 million. The physical operations, PK - 1 and that of course is maintenance, heat, furnace and all of these things, $3.5 million.

The Faculty of Arts is pretty self-evident, the various Arts Departments $3.5 million; the Administration which includes Controller's Office, and the Registrar's Office, and the overall administratior of quite a big facility, $2.8 million; the library,$2.2 m~llion; the Faculty of Education, $2.1 million; the Junior Division approximately $2 million~ Then what would come under the general benefits, and that is the pension plan, and the insurance plan of the University, $1.6 million, and that would include insurance as well, you know, disability insurance etc.

The Corner Brook Campus, $1.5 million; the Extension Services of the University, $1.1 million; Computer Services, $991,000; Marine Sciences Research Laboratory, $658,000; what is called here campus services,and that is essentially security, $499,000; the Department of Physical Education, $470,000; Graduate Studies Division for the various departments, $435,000; the Educational Television, and that is basically the E.T.V. for extramural -studies ·, $421,000; the School of Nursing, $415,000; the Thompson's Student Centre, $394,000; the School of Business Administration and Commerce, $365,000; the School of Social Work, $298,000; the Department of Co-ordination, now this means that in certain areas especially Commerce, for Engineering as well, there is a programme whereby students study so long and they are out working and they are back studying and they are out working, and it is that work term concept, $220,000; the Institute of Research and Human Abilities >an_d this is largerly associated with diagnois of learning disabilities, $167,000; counselling services for students, especially underp,raduates, $150,000r the Institution of Social and Economic Research, I think the general work of that institution is very well lmo•"tl, they have studies made into, and publications with respect to 1866

March 21, 1975 Tape 601 (Morning) essentially socio - economic problems of Newfoundland related to the fishery, related to rural problems etc. $100,000; the Centre for the Development of Community Initiatives $100,000, PK - 2 this is a fairly recent centre at the University, and people there work especially with rural communities in helping them to identify their needs and plan programmes, I suppose one would call it a kind of community development, $100,000; for the interest and amortization of Harlow Campus, $50,000, and this is used for internships especially for teachers and sometimes for engineers and for social workers as well, and the amount there is for interest and amortiBation; Vice-President's Research Fund, $50,000, this is an amount which usually will start people in research so that they can get far enough whereby they can then apply to foundations, but it gives them that start; Church College Grants, that is $40,000, and what that comes to is $100 per resident student to the three church colleges; staff recruitment and travel, $35,000, and miscellaneous 1 which would be for emergencies etc, $50,000.

MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate it if the minister cou!d supply me with a copy of that list that he just read out. And I might ask the minister if that does represent the making public of the University's Budget? There has been some statement made recently, I do not know whether it has been made by the President or the Minister of Education if the University is now willing to make public its budget, am I correct in that? Well) the minister can refresh my memory on it. 1867

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 602 Page 1 - mw MR. OTTENHEIViER: At the. opening of the Department of Education's estimates on Tuesday, I stated that when we got to the vote for the university, I would be giving a department by department brea~down of their expenditure. That, in fac_t, is a department by department breakdown· of their expenditure. MR. F. ROWE: If I could just ask s1nother brief question, Mr. Chairman. The total nrovincial budget to the university is $39 million. MR. OTTENHEIMER: That is correct. MR. F. ROWE: T-That is the total university budget l period?

I am thinking of, you know, funds that would come through private corpor~tions such as the Alfred D. Sloan Foundation, the Ford Foundation, the Rockerfeller Foundation and this sort of a thing. What I am tr:ying to get at, Mr. Chairman, is this. What percentage of the total university budget is public money? Is money coming from either the federal or provincial government? Would the minister have that generalized percentage at the present time? !1R. OTTJlNHL'IER: It would be, ~jr. Chairman, a very high percentage. It would be a very high percentage.

Because the amount that is voted here is entirely provincial and this makes up the vast bulk, and there is a certain amount of federal money and of grants, whicl. would come from the federal government. There would be some grants from different foundations. There are a few, but very few endownments and this is unfortunate because many universities have a continuing and predictable source of income from endownments and, of course, there is some revenue in tuition which is a different matter as well. But certainly the provincial government's proportion would be a very, very high percentage.

I would rather have it figured out than, you know, state it without having figured it out mathematically. MR. F. ROWE: Would it be, you know, safe to say, Mr. Chairman, that, you know, the public money put into the university would represent in excess of ninety per cent of the total university Budget1 MR. OTTENHEIMER: Yes, that.is correct. 1868

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 602 Page 2 - mw MR. F. ROWE: Okay, you know, whether it is ninety-two or ninety-five or ninety-eight is irrelevant to the point I am going to make. The point is this, that the vast majority of the expenditure of the university and the budget of the university comes out of the pockets of the taxpayers. It is public money. And it is my sincere feeling, Mr. Chairman, that the university should be accountable for all of the public money that is expended by that university, should be held accountable to the public of Newfoundland - MR.. CROSBIE: Hear! Hear! MR. F. ROWE: - for its expenditure.

The Hon. Minister of Fisheries agrees with me. I mean I can take him seriously this time. He is not being sarcastic. He is being sincere. MR. OTTENHEIMER: It is our budget. We have to vote for it. MR. F. ROWE: Right. MR. CROSBIE: I do not want to interrupt the honourable gentleman but we need to raise the committee. MR. F. ROWE: MR. CROSBIE: I do not think. MR. F. ROWE: Yes, I obviously would like for the minute to - You do not want to carry the vote this morning, Well let it go on record that the Minister of Fisheries does agree. MR. CROSBIE: privilege. I do not want to have to get up on a point of Mr.

Chairman, I move that the committee rise and report the various items that have been approved to date and ask leave to sit again. On motion that the committee rise and report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. CHAIRllAN : Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report having made progress and ask leave to sit again. MR. SPEAKER: The Chairman of the Committee of Supply reports that they have considered the matters to them referred and report having made progress and ask leave to sit again. 1869

March 21, 1975 MR. SPEAKER: Tape no. 602 Page 3 - mw On motion report received and adopted. On motion committee ordered to sit again on tomorrow. It now being 1:00 P.M., I leave the Chair until 3:00 P.H. this afternoon. 1870

March 21, 1975 Tape 603 (afternoon) The House resumed at 3:00 P.M. Mr, Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! .Order no. 4 which is a Committee of the Whole. On motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on the said bill. Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR, CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please! A hill, "An Act Respecting The Newfoundland And Labrador Hydro-Electric Corporation." On motion,

preamble carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause (2) carry? IB-1 MR. CROSBIE: Clause (2), Mr. Chainnan, there is an amendment to add a new clause (e) - this is the

interpretation

section - and to add a new clause (

e) defining Labrador. "Labrador" means all that part of the Province situated on the mainland of Canada. Then to amend the present clauses (e), (f), (

g) and so on. All have to have their lettering changed. (

e) would become (f), (

f) would become (

g) and so on and the re.st of the

interpretation clauses. _AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. _MR. CROSBIE: You have a copy. So, I move, Mr. Chairman, that section (2) be amended by adding a new clause (e). "Labrador" means all that part of the province situated on the mainland of Canada and that the present clauses (

e) to (1) be changed accordingly, (

f) to (m). There are a couple of other minor changes in the clause, typographical errors. Actually there is one typographical error to be corrected. That is in the last clause of section (2), the third last line which says now, the development, generation and production of power, substitute the word or for the word and, the development, generation or production of power. On motion amendment carried. On motion clause (2) as amended carried. On motion clause (3) carried. 1871

}!arch 21. 1975 Tape 603 (afternoon) :-m. <::U.ArRMAN: Shall clause (4) carry? •IP .• CROSBIE: Claus e (4) , Mr . Chaiman, has some typographical errors. Subsection (3) of clause (4) - these just need to be noted I guess. The word agreements is not properly prin ted . Then after Labrador .Hyd_ro in subclause (3) you had to put a fu11 stop. These need to he adopted by ,the committee. Also the typographical errors - these are just nnted . We do not need any changes. On motion clause (4) and clause (5) car r ied. ~!R. CHAIRMAN: Shall clause (F.) carry? Ml!. ROBRRTS: Hr .

Chairman, I think the government wished to move 15-2 An amendment to that as! udnerstand it, but! also wish to move one . It is a bit of a procedural question. We are both talking about subsection(~) . ~y understanding of the copy 1 am been given by the minister i s that in effect the government wished to delete (8) and replace (8) with the present nine . You knw, 1872

March 21, 1975. Tape 604 RI! - 1 just renumber. What I wish to do>and I ask Your Honour's guidance on how we go about it proceduredly,is to delete (8) and replace it with another subsection altogether. MR. CROSBIE: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry? MR. CROSBIE: MR. ROBERTS: If we delete (8) first, then you can move your - Okay. Well, alright, that is in order. I mean - And then mine just says, no member of the House of Assembly shall be eligible to be appointed director of the corporation or to receive any renumeration from the corporation.

If the page would come, there is a piece out of the amendments I wish to propose for the minister. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorry? :AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well, let us get (8) out and then I will move iit and we will have a chat on it. MR. CROSBIE: I move, Mr. Chairman , - MR. ROBERTS: I asked to have those taken - if the page would accept my - that is for the minister. I have copies for the Chair and the Chair will certainly have them. MR. CROSBIE: However, Mr. Chairman, - MR. ROBERTS: Sorry, "Fred", but I asked him to take them over there. MR.

CROSBIE: I would move that subsection (8) of section (6) be deleted. That is the

section that says, notwithstanding the Legislative Disabilities Act, if a membe.r of the House of Assembly is appointed a director, his seat does not become vacant by reason only of his appointment and acceptance of remuneration as a director, and that the remaining subclause be renamed (8). AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. 1873

March 21, 1975. Tape 604 RH - 2 On motion, amendment carried. MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, I would now move that a new sub- section (8) as per the words I just sent up to the Chair to read as follows: No member of the House of Assembly should bi eligible to be appointed as director of the corporation or to receive any remnneration from the corporation. I think this speaks for itself, Sir. The effect of it would be to state positively a rule or principle

whereas now the act is silent. The only legislation that would bear if this clause is not amended in committee would be the Legislative Dis­ abilities Act which may or may not s~rve the purpose, but even if it does serve the purpose, nothing at all can be lost by this further positive reaffirmation of the principle which I understand has been accepted by the ministry, that simply no member of this House shall be eligible to be appot,nted a director of the corporation or to receive any renumeration of any sort from the corporation. I think it is an important principle and accordingly I move the amendment. MR.

CHAIRMAN (Stagg): The llinister of Mines and Energy. MR. BARRY: Nr. Chainnan, if I could speak to that amendment. There is absolutely .no reason for including that in the act. The Legisl .ative Disabilities Act applies. Once the original

section 6(8) is removed which says notwithstanding the Legislative Disabilities Act, it is possible for a member of the House of Assembly ,to be appointed a director. Onc~that

section is removed, then the Legislative Disabilities Act applies and any_member of the House of Assembly can become a director, as I understand it. In doing so, he would forfeit his seat in the House of Assembly. Is that not correct? AN HONOURABLE MEMBER.: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: - in the House. Certainly raise that question. 1874

March 21_, 197 5 . Tape 604 P.H - 3 MR. BARRY: In any event, . Mr. Chaitman, we submit that we cannot support this amendment because it is to t ally unnecessary. Obviously the Leader of the Opposition fee.ls that for his own r easons he wants to make a point, but we see that ther e is not hing to be gained. It is unnecessary,and therefore we cannot support it . MR. MORPHY: It would have to be in every bill that was passed. MR. ROBERTS: bill. It might not be a bad idea to put it in every MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Shall the amendment carry? Those in favour "aye", those against "nay", carried.

In my opinion the nays have it. On motion, clause (6) as amended, carried . On motion, clauses 7 through 14, carried. MR. CHAIRMAN (Stagg): Shal.l clause 15 carry? HR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, I move an amendment to clause 15. 1875

March 21, 1975 Tape 605 (Afternoon) Pk - 1 Add in the fourth line after the words, sole and exclusive right and franchise, add the words, limited to the Island of Newfoundland, I guess we should de them one at a time. All that this clause says is that subject to the rights of any person that exists now the corporation has the sole and exclusive right and franchise limited to the Island of Newfoundland to sell certain power. MR. ROBERTS: Why? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. NR. ROBERTS: The ministry doubtless have an answer. I would like to hear it, Mr. Chairman.

You know, on the face of it, and I realize there may be more later, but on the face of it appears to put us back where we are now where the government some years ago by legislation took an exclusive franchise to the new development, the further development of power sites on the Island, not on the Labrador portion of the Province. This apparently does the same thing, I mean 1what is the reason? MR. BARRY: Mr.

Chairman, as I understand it there is a condition in at least one of the trust indentures, the contracts entered into when the Power Corporation or the old Power Commission went to the market to borrow funds that makes necessary this section, and which has to be considered in light of a further amencment which the Leader of the Oppositioa s~ould have a copy of, in section (25) with respect to the grant of a franchise in Labrador.

It if felt that to avoid problems possible, and in eff~ct are legal technicalities with respect to the wording of the bond indentures, it is felt that rather than make the franchise of the Hydro Corporation apply automatically to all of Labrador that it may be necessary to deal with the granting of the franchise to Labrador separately in the event that there are particular circumstances that have to be dealt with at that time.

As I understand it if it were put in, if Section (15) were left as it is and the writ of the corporation was applicable to Labrador that would iuunediately make it fall within certain restricted covenants in the bond indentures that now 1876

March 21, 1975 Tape 605 (Afternoon) exist that were created when the old Power Commission went out to the capital markets to borrow money. So it is a technical legal reason. MR. ROBERTS: It makes sense to me, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the amendment carry? PK - 2 MR. CROSBIE: In subclause (

a) of that clause, Mr. Chairman, amend certain words there. It says now to sell in the first instance either for consumption., And after the wordi,. consumption, by way of domestic, industrial, or any other use whatsoever. Those are the words to add. And then·it goes on - or for resale all power generated by the Corporation. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the amendment carry? On motion amendment carried. On motion Clause (15) as amended carried. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall Clause(l6) carry? MR. CROSBIE: Clause (16), Mr. Chairman. I would move that the · present Clause (16) be deleted, and that a new Clause (16) be added.

Rather than reading it all I believe the members have got a copy of the s~ggested amendment, which is to do with defining ot_ subsidaries of the corporation, and what is a subsidiary. AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. CROSBIE: Well this is, perhaps the minister - I understand it is some.legal requirement so it is quite clear what is a subsidiary of the corporation. There will be several subsidiaries of course, including the Gull Island Power Corporation. MR. BARRY: Again, ~tr.

Chairman, this has to be looked at in conjunction with a later amendment, (17)(i),for example, lend monies to any subsidiary of the corporation,where they spell out certain additional powers which it was felt useful to spell out rather than just leave the

Section (

i) as it was generally to do all things which the corporation deemed necessary, convenient or advisable etc. There were certain powers spelled out, more specifically one of which deals with - more than one actually - a number of which deal with the 1877

March 21, 1975 Tape 605 (Afternoon) PK - 3 the relationship of the corporation to its subsidiary, and for that matter it was deemed necessary, thought necessary by the law officiers involved in the drafting to spell out specifically who is or who could be a subsidiary of the corporation, and that is why the Section (16) is in there as it is. 1878

Afternoon Session. March 21, 1975 Tape no. 606 Page 1 - mw MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, we are quite prepared to vote for it, but what happens to the present

section 16? AN HON. MEMBER: It comes out. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, but is it to re-surface in another form? You know, presumably, it had a raison d'etre for being in there to begin with. MR. BARRY: The aim applies with the Labrador bit and it is dealt with in

section 25, I believe. MR. ROBERTS: I am not sure I understand it, but I m·ean when we come to

section 25, we will go into it.

Section 25 does not seem to be quite the same.

Section 25 deals with Labrador. jfil. BARRY: The power to sell at retail is already in

section 15, if you look at

section 15. MR. ROBERTS: Yes. You know but the fact remains that

section 16 was put in originally - MR. BARRY: Because - MR. ROBERTS: - but it did not specifically just deal with :.abrador.

Section 16, as it was, you know, in the second reading print .,f the bill deals with, you know, the entire province. in other words you got

section 15 giving the power to sell at retail within ~he Province which will now restrict it to the Island of Newfoundland but

section 16 then dealt with everybody. MR. BARRY: If you look at

section 16 - MR. WOODWARD: Mr. Chairman, I feel that this is a very important bill, but it is not giving the members on this side of the House a chance to see what the amendments are. The amendments are included and posted in the bill that the government people are using, but we do not have the amendments that we are dicussing now. And I suggest that copies should be made available to everyone as the minister made available to me this morning and the Leader of the Opposition is using so that the members can see what is going on and what the amendments consist of. 1879

March 21, 1975 Tape no. 606 Page 2 - mw smm HON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I think my colleague has a point. I have copies of the amendments in front of me. AN HON. MEMBER: They are there. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, but I do not need them thanks, I have them in this. But I got them only a few minutes ago, and I certainly have not had any chance to read them, which, I think, is obvious by the questions I run asking, The bill, I realize, is a very important one. The government tell us it is urgent and yet the fact remains the government have chosen not to call it before this.

It was passe _d second reading a week or ten days ago. Unless there is some urgency that we do not know about, which we could be told about, why cannot this matter stand over? There is lots of business b~fore the House, Your Honour. Why cannot this matter stand over until Monday rather than rush it through with, you know, important amendments? As the minister has indicated, th~se are important amendments. The government may have finished drafting them this morning or they may have drafted them a week ago but the fact remains that the Hause has only seen them now.

So I ask perhaps that they could stand over until Monday, and I will take whatever time is necessary to read them and so will all of my colleagues and then we will be able to debate them with some knowledge as opposed to this process here. MR. BARRY: Mr. Chairman, I did present the Hon. Member for Labrador North with the amended copy before lunch. I realize that that is no great length of time, but at the same time, I submit, that the amendments that are suggested here are not fundamental to the principle of the bill - MR . ROBERTS:. MR. WOODWARD: We are not debating the principle of the bill here.

You must admit that it is confusing to the people who do not have - MR. CHAIRHAN (Hr. Stagg): Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: We have settled the principle of the bill. MR. CHAIRMAN (Mr. Stagg) ·: Order, please! 1880

March 21, 1975 Tap~ no. 606 Page 3 - mw MR. BARRY: If I could, Mr. Chairman. We also have prepared photostatic copies of the amendments with respect to each section, and we are now dealing with

section 17. There are only two other amendments of any substantial size, and when I ~peak about size, I am talking about the amount of printing involved. MR. ROBERTS: We are still on

section 16. We have not gone off

section 16. MR. BARRY: I am sorry,

section 16. Okay, there are three. There is

section 16, 17 and - MR. ROBERTS:

Section 25. MR. BARRY: - 25 that involve any amount of new typing. But I submit that any member here is in a position to read these in a matter of five minutes and see just what is there. There is nothing, as I say, fundamental going to the substance of the bill, but they are matters that for technical reasons and to enable greater efficiency on the part of the corpor;ai'tion, once it is in operation, they would be desirable to hav~ included in the final bill passed by the House. I would ask the honourable members to consider proceeding with it. I should point out also that there is one reason for moving ahead with the bill at this time and that is that 1881

March 21, 1975 Tape 607 (afternoon) IB-1 if the bill is passed prior to the termination of this fiscal year, and if certain arrangments are taken with respect to the relationship of this corporation and CFLCo particularly, the Province could be enabled to save approximately Sl million because of taxation and royalty arrangements between CFLCo and the Newfoundland Hydro Corporation. This is the reason why government would like to see the Hydro Corporation Rill proceed as -quickly as possible, I can understand the - I believe there was some confusion. The honourable Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs or Fisheries had photostatic copies of each

section to be distributed to the members. Our understa,nding was that they would go out as we come to each

section just to point out what is involved in the amendment for each section. But again I can only say I do not see where there is any fundamental amendments to the principle of the bill. I would ask the assistance of the honourable members opposite to get the act completed and through committee at this stage. _MR. RORERTS: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the minister, I could make three or four points which I think are very relevant to this. First of all, Mr. Chairman, the question of the fundamental principle of the bill is not an issue in the committee.

The House disposed of that question at second reading stage. There is no question of that. What we are now talking about is the stage by stage examination of what, by all descriptions, is a very important piece of legislation. r.ranting the fact that $1 million is certainly worth the saving, today is only March 21. Monday is ~.arch 24, a day of happy memory, the day of the Saunders' Memorial we wi 11 call i t 1 perhaps_, and we will have a holiday, a day to remember William P.Saunders. MR . CHAIRMAN: Order, please! AN . HONOURABLE MEMBER: Do not get into that again, MR.

ROBERTS: Yes, a day of solid reckoning that is to come. Mr. Chairman; the fact remains that these amendments of which no real notice has been given - I realize that no real notice is required under the rules - but the fact remains that these are fairly important. 1882

March 21, 1975 Tape 607 (afternoon) IB-2 They are fairly technical. I do not see - I must admit that I do not see any reason why the members on this side - I am the only one who is "learned" in the sense in which we use that. I do not pre tend to understand them. My colleagues who are not as learned in the law as I allegedly am, I am sure would wish to think about the matter. (I wish you would not put that in front of me when I am trying to speak. I am sorry but you know - AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. ROBERTS: Well, I could tell you where to put it but that is not parliamentary. Thank you.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Do not be so ignorant, boy. MR , ROBERTS : Is there any reason why this cannot stand? We are going to meet Monday. AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: No reason. MR. ROBERTS: MR. CROSBIE: Well, if you agree to it, I will not have to speak. Well, do not speak. MR. ROBERTS: Agree to it. He was not agreeing. MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Chairman, we do not want any false issue raised about these amendments. These amendments are just technical, legal amendments prepared by the draftsmen of the bill.

We do not want the public getting any false impression that we are moving amendments that the poor old Opposition have not had time to study, and dire things are being done. We are quite agreed. If the honourable gentlemen want to wait until Monday and study these amendments and peruse then· over the weekend, fine,we will do it. So, I move that the committee rise and report progress and ask leave to sit again. On motion that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. STAGG: Mr.

Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report having made progress and ask leave to sit again. MR. SPEAKER: The Chairman of the Committee of the Whole reports that they have considered the matters to them referred and report having made 1883

Tape 607 (afternoon) some progress and ask leave to sit again. On motion report received and adopted, Committee ordered to sit again on tomorrow. IB-3

March 21, 1975 Tape 608 (Afternoon) On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Shall 614-01 carry? PK - l MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, before dinner I was about to get