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October 17, 1991

35th Parliament, 1st Session

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Hansard Transcripts

The House met at 1003.

Prayers.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

COMPENSATION FOR VACCINE-RELATED INJURY

Mr Frankford moved resolution 27:

That, in the opinion of this House, the government of Ontario should begin consultation with the public and with health professionals, pharmaceutical manufacturers and health-related organizations regarding the implementation of a compensation scheme for vaccine-related injury.

Mr Frankford: I am very pleased to be able to bring in this resolution, which relates to my personal background as a physician, but I would also like to note the extensive help I have had from legislative research which has given me a very good background on some points I would like to make. I would like to point out that it is a resolution, not a bill, so I trust it will stimulate debate. I hope it will be acceptable to members on all sides of this House.

I would like to start off by noting about vaccination that I think we should realize there are strong public health reasons for vaccination programs. Sometimes people tend to forget that we are dealing with childhood diseases, but these are not just childhood diseases I am talking about; they can relate to other vaccines that are given in adult life. We should remember that there is mortality from what are sometimes thought to be somewhat trivial diseases such as measles.

I would like to read an extract from a Canadian Paediatric Society paper in support of a compensation plan for vaccine-associated injuries. It states: "In the 1980s, Canada's childhood immunization programs have been so successful that the target illnesses are seen infrequently, some not at all. Lacking visible reminders of the dangers of these illnesses, parents today are less certain of the benefits of immunization than were parents one or two decades ago and are more concerned about the safety of vaccines being offered to their children.

The vaccines used routinely in Canada are much safer than the diseases they prevent but they are not perfect. Given that vaccines must contain the key portions of bacteria or viruses necessary to induce protective immunity, perfectly safe vaccines may not be attainable."

It is, as I say, an important public policy aspect to have this widespread immunity, and in fact it is close to being a requirement. As the members may know, there are requirements for vaccination around school entry. They are not absolute requirements, but they have considerable force behind them. There are a number of vaccines -- I mention measles, diphtheria, tetanus -- which are close to being absolute requirements. I say "close to being" because parents do have the option of a philosophical exemption. They can have a written statement saying they object and this does need to be notarized.

Although it is close to being mandatory, it is not absolutely mandatory. It is recognized as one of the philosophical concerns of this Legislature that we did not want to force people to get into things, but I think public health physicians would stress to the members how important it is to maintain widespread immunity. We have recently seen in the United States that there has been some resurgence of measles because of inadequate immunity, and this is a real threat.

Having established that it is close to being public policy and having established that there are risks and inevitably some damage, some injuries associated with it, we get into what happens in the case of injury. I would like to stress it is not my purpose to go into detailed discussions of any particular vaccines. I am not trying to make a case for damage from one vaccine or another. I know there have been some rather tragic cases and some law suits.

Part of the reason for bringing this in is that the present situation does require demonstration of tort, and unfortunately in some of those cases which have gone to court no tort could be demonstrated. No negligence was found on the part of the physicians or the manufacturers, so the unfortunate thing in those cases was that no liability was demonstrated, and the injured parties presumably had to pay quite high legal costs and the physicians and the manufacturers had the stress of going to court.

This is why I am proposing that we bring in some alternative scheme. I have not used the term "no-fault" in my resolution, but I think essentially what we are asking for is a no-fault scheme

I might at this point, just to make it more real, mention one case. In my professional career I have not really come across any, but I have this one personal connection. A relative of mine, a young man, joined the British army around 1939 and had not previously been vaccinated against smallpox. He had a profound reaction which has left him permanently disabled with very profound muscle weakness, although this has not affected his mental state and he has followed quite a successful career. But with this profound muscle weakness he has had to have lifetime attendants and he has had to have a modified car.

Now in this case, because it was service-related, it was essentially a no-fault scheme. There is a pension and there has been assistance with activities of day-to-day living. This is an example of what can happen in some circumstances.

Essentially I am asking that some scheme be developed that would do something similar. I am not necessarily saying that we are talking about just a financial compensation scheme. This comes around to the question of comprehensive disability plans which I know have been discussed in this House and which I know have been looked at by the government. I was on the parliamentary assistants' committee that was discussing this topic.

What I am proposing certainly does not rule out developing a comprehensive disability plan, which I hope will come. Partly I bring this resolution forth because I think that in its small way it could help to plan what the approach of a comprehensive disability plan would be. It is a group of disabled people which, as I said, results essentially as a side-effect of public policy. There is a strong obligation for the government or for society to bring in some compensation, because the society in a sense has demanded that they get this vaccination.

In closing, I would like to point out that there are precedents in other jurisdictions. I note there is one in the United States and there is one in Quebec which did in fact result from a legal case around a measles vaccination. In that case the court did find that it was a side-effect of this measles vaccination without any negligence being demonstrated. My understanding is that because of this they felt there should be some sort of no-fault compensation, so they have implemented such a scheme already.

Mrs Caplan: I am pleased to rise in support of the resolution that has been presented today by the member for Scarborough East. I am calling from memory on some of the experiences and discussions around this and a much broader issue, the issue relating to the kinds of injuries that are avoidable that occur within the health system generally.

There has been quite a lot of debate and discussion generated which unfortunately we have not seen presented in this House for any discussion. I welcome the resolution because it gives us an opportunity to talk about what is existing today and what we can do in the future.

I think this issue goes far beyond the simple resolution that has been presented by the member for Scarborough East. He has referred strictly to compensation for vaccine injury. Those cases have been tested through the courts and they have pointed out that in this province, in fact in this country, unless you can prove negligence by the provider, the professional, the institution or the manufacturer, there is no compensation available for the individual, the patient, the consumer who has sustained injury.

I draw to the members' attention that this is the case whether it is vaccine injury, injury as a result of blood products or injury as a result of iatrogenesis. That is a term I became familiar with and I think it is an important term for all members of this House to be aware of. I have a dictionary and I will read the definition. "Iatrogenic: caused by process of medical examination or treatment." Simply put, iatrogenic disease is an illness or a disease which is caused by accessing medical treatment.

Much of iatrogenesis or iatrogenic disease is inadvertent. It is because many procedures carry with them a significant risk of harm. Right now in the standing committee on social development we are dealing with a package of legislation where the concept of licensing the risky and dangerous acts professionals such as doctors, nurses, physiotherapists, chiropractors and others do to people is then developed within the concept of risk of harm.

I refer to the beginning of this debate and would like to point out to members of this House that the now president of the University of Toronto, Dr Robert Prichard, headed a federal-provincial task force that dealt with many of these important issues. I would recommend to all members of this House to read his report, which is entitled Liability and Compensation in Health Care, and I express my disappointment at this time that there has been no action taken by the government in addressing the recommendations of this important report.

The report suggests that there is a problem. We are seeing an increasing number of malpractice and liability suits against doctors, institutions and manufacturers, whether they are pharmaceutical or whether it is in the area of vaccine or other areas. We have seen larger and larger awards. Particularly as inflation has been going in the western world in the last decade, we have seen large awards by the courts.

We have therefore seen an increased cost of liability insurance for providers and professionals and the hospitals, and we have also seen the response from the professionals, which is often defensive medicine. That has had enormous costs in the health system because the providers, wanting to make sure they are providing quality care and doing everything they can, often do many things that are considered unnecessary, wasteful or inappropriate. That is really the call for quality assurance programs, for the development of programs in total quality management, in continuous quality improvement programs, sometimes referred to as CQI.

These are the things that are necessary to start addressing the level of inappropriate care generally within the health system. I use the term "inappropriate," because we are not talking about negligence and we are not talking about malpractice. We are talking about that which just may not be necessary. I notice the member for Scarborough East nodding his head. We understand that.

At the Conference on Quality Assurance hosted by the Ontario Ministry of Health in November 1989 in Metropolitan Toronto, we heard very clearly that the level of inappropriate care taking place in the health system generally was about 20%; that is, of everything we did in the health system, 20% was considered inappropriate.

That does not mean it was not good quality if you happened to have a caesarean

section you did not need. That does not mean the tonsillectomy you had was not perfectly and competently performed, except that it may not have been necessary. That does not mean that the service given was not high-quality service, but it was inappropriate because it was unnecessary or did not meet the standard of appropriate care.

Those standards have been and are being defined by medical practitioners around the world for the first time as part of quality assurance, total quality management, continuous improvement programs around the world. The notion of systemic quality assurance in health care is relatively new. We are just beginning to see that take place, so this discussion of a compensation scheme is extremely important.

The reason it is important is because of the changes that are occurring. We know that within the existing system there is inadequate compensation for persons suffering from avoidable injuries in the health system, whether they are related to vaccine, drugs, devices, drugs like thalidomide or blood product selection, the kinds of avoidable injuries that come from iatrogenesis, as I mentioned before.

How do we as a society respond to that? I think the resolution the member has brought forward is the beginning of an important debate in this Legislature, but I do not think it should be defined just in the area of vaccine. I believe Dr Prichard's recommendation should be taken very seriously by legislators, not only in Ontario but right across this country.

He calls for the development -- not institutionalizing it today -- of a system which would still allow for litigation where there was malpractice. However, he is talking about the development of a no-fault compensation scheme for those people who are inadvertently injured. He points out in his report that the present system is costing about $200 million. That is a lot of money, but that $200 million is only compensating 10% of the actual claims.

Approximately 250 claims are being compensated in Canada today out of an estimated 2,500 deserving claims. Of those, the ones that are being compensated, where you are talking about proven negligence or malpractice against providers or hospitals, in areas such as vaccine there is no compensation at all. The courts have said that unless you can prove negligence or malpractice, there is no entitlement.

The recommendations that are made in this report are extremely significant, in light of the fact that people who we believe should be compensated are not being compensated. The report makes some 79 recommendations, but there are three very significant ones. First, they suggest maintaining tort action for malpractice and negligence against health care providers. Second, they recommend increased responsibility of health care institutions, hospitals and others, for the quality of care provided in them. That is what continuous improvement is about, that is what quality assurance is about and that is what total quality management is about, utilization management and others.

Third, they recommend developing a no-fault compensation system alternative for avoidable health care injuries which have caused personal injuries to individuals. If this recommendation was pursued by the present government, I think it would result in achieving the goals the member for Scarborough East has suggested to us today in the discussion on vaccine compensation. But I suggest to him that the discussion goes far beyond that.

There are many people in Ontario today who are not being cared for and compensated except through a very involved court system, when the injury they sustained was inadvertent and the result of lack of standards, lack of the kind of ongoing quality assurance consistency that would lower the rate of those kinds of inadvertent illnesses.

As I speak in support of the resolution, I would also like to speak in support of the recommendations that came out of Dr Prichard's report. I also urge the member to note that within his own government the responses have been very inconsistent. For example, I am aware of the response to the Canadian Hemophilia Society. The federal government announced a compensation program for those with haemophilia who contracted the HIV virus. This was because of the federal government's responsibility for blood supply in this country. There have been some tragic consequences as a result. We are all aware of that.

When this was announced, I know that the provincial Health ministers right across this country indicated a desire to work with the federal government to make sure that proper support was given to those people right across this country. I was disappointed that the response from the federal minister at the time was not more positive in entering into a partnership relationship with all the provinces to develop a truly national program, as opposed to just a federal program.

However, I say today that Dr Prichard noted in his report that the cost of a system for no-fault compensation, such as this suggested by the member, would be far greater than $200 million a year if we included vaccine, blood products, devices and so forth. This report recommends taking the first steps to getting on and doing it. This report says Ontario should not act alone, because this is a national program.

We are also proud of our medicare and the fact that we share principles with every other province in this country. We know of the numbers of cases of individuals who have suffered from reactions to vaccine. Those statistics are clear.

I would say that right now I very much support the nature of mandatory vaccine, because it is in the public health interest. But the unavoidable individual cases of those who are inadvertently damaged in the interests of public health should be responded to in a compassionate and caring way, and the existing system that is in place today does not allow for that.

It is not just in the case of vaccine. I think very specifically of the drug DES. I think of the devices, intrauterine devices and others, which have been permitted to be used and which are now shown to have caused damage. I think of iatrogenic disease, where people are inadvertently harmed in the health system and face no opportunity for compensation because they cannot prove negligence.

I believe this is an important debate and discussion about making sure the people of this province have access to the kind of compensation they deserve. I also think it would be good for the providers. It would lower their tension and their resistance. One of the things Dr Prichard noted was that doctors particularly are under tremendous stress. That is one of the reasons for defensive medicine. Overall, there is tremendous opportunity in support of this discussion, and I am pleased the member has brought it to the Legislature.

Mr McLean: I appreciate this opportunity to say a few words about this resolution of the member for Scarborough East. I was going to say Simcoe East, but that is me. However, I am supporting the resolution so it could be one of mine.

I want to read the resolution into the record. "That, in the opinion of this House, the government of Ontario should begin consultation with the public and with health professionals, pharmaceutical manufacturers and health-related organizations regarding the implementation of a compensation scheme for vaccine-related injury."

I support this resolution in principle because I believe there is a clear need for some form of compensation system for vaccine-related injuries. We all know that proper immunization of schoolchildren is the law in Ontario and is part of the Immunization of School Pupils Act, 1982.

The Ontario Ministry of Health administers a universal school immunization program to ensure that both children and the public are protected against six serious diseases: diphtheria, tetanus, polio, measles, mumps and rubella. Making sure that children are properly immunized has become a back-to-school ritual, much like shopping for new school clothing, packing nutritious lunches and telling kids how to behave at school.

Even when the best vaccine products are properly administered and used, they can pose minute risks to those who receive them. It should be noted that the medical community has historically had a great deal of difficulty identifying vaccine-related problems because neurological conditions are often vague and not well understood. Because of the uncertainty that surrounds neurological disorders, it is quite possible that children who are born with certain types of conditions may have their conditions attributed to vaccines when in fact they are not vaccine-related. I believe it would be irresponsible to establish a vaccine compensation fund that would be a funnel for inappropriate claims.

Having said that, it is time to recognize that the few who suffer inevitable serious vaccine-related injury deserve compensation from the many who remain free of disease as a consequence of the high vaccination levels. I believe a provincial compensation program is feasible. I also believe social conscience demands its enactment.

To me, the most attractive solution involves the establishment of a compensation system with an administrative rather than a judicial base. This would offer dependable, cost-effective, rapid and equitable compensation for unavoidable serious injuries resulting from mandated vaccines. It should reduce frivolous lawsuits, yet provide compensation for all true victims.

At the same time as we are considering implementing a compensation system for vaccine-related injury, the Minister of Health must look into the need for and mechanisms and scope of such a program. This must be undertaken before the government can have any meaningful consultation with the public, health professionals, pharmaceutical manufacturers and health-related organizations. It should be noted that the Ontario Medical Association recommended this several years ago.

In conclusion, I support this resolution in principle, but the boundaries must be defined before we can begin implementing a compensation scheme for vaccine-related injury.

Mr Winninger: I am pleased to speak in support of the resolution of the member for Scarborough East calling for consultation on the implementation of a compensation scheme for vaccine-related injury.

Where public health policy so strongly dictates in favour of vaccination as a requirement for school entry, compensation should flow when injury occurs. Forcing the families of victims to sue for negligence adds insult to injury. Often the measure of success is based upon the financial resources of the afflicted party, the ability and resourcefulness of legal counsel, the availability and quality of the evidence, the credibility of the witnesses, and finally and perhaps most important, the predilections of the judge hearing the case.

The insurance companies that underwrite the risk for the manufacturers of these drugs and the physicians who prescribe them are the same insurance companies that hire the high-priced legal counsel to defend their clients in court. They are likely to have infinitely greater resources to ensure success in the judicial arena than do the victims' families.

A causal relationship between the use of pertussis vaccine and brain damage has never been definitively established. There are convincing proponents on either side of this vexed issue. The issue in fact was highlighted in the Rothwell case decided here in Ontario, in which a three-month-old child began to receive immunization doses of pertussis vaccine and after the third dose was found to have severe brain damage, rendering the child blind, almost deaf and severely retarded both mentally and physically, requiring constant care.

Notwithstanding that the trial judge found there was no causality between the injections of pertussis vaccine and the ensuing brain damage, Mr Justice Osler, who heard that case at the trial level, stated that had there been a slight difference in the evidence, had there been further scientific advances or a different trial judge, a very different result might have occurred.

Mr Justice Osler went on to suggest that in view of the compensation schemes that have already been enacted in the United Kingdom and the United States, Ontario provide an adequate but not lavish compensation scheme for cases where the victim of a vaccination has enjoyed prior good health, where the vaccine has been administered under public mandate and where catastrophic damage occurs within a limited period of time.

In fact, Mr Justice Osler went on to quote his brother judge, Mr Justice Krever, in another Ontario case involving the Hamilton Civic Hospitals. Mr Justice Krever said: "I confess to a feeling of discomfort over a state of affairs in an enlightened and compassionate society in which a patient who undergoes a necessary procedure and who cannot afford to bear the entire loss through no fault of his, and reposing full confidence in our system of medical care, suffers catastrophic disability, yet is not entitled to be compensated because of the absence of fault on the part of those involved in his care.

While it may be that there is no remedy for this unfortunate and brave plaintiff and that this shortcoming should not be corrected judicially, there is, in my view, an urgent need for correction."

In a similar case in Quebec, the Lapierre case, which was appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada, Mr Justice Chouinard, writing for the majority, acknowledged that special legislation for vaccine victims in France, Britain, Japan, Germany and Denmark provides for compensation regardless of fault and is directed more to the needs of the vaccine victim than to delicate issues of evidence and liability and damages. In that case, Mr Justice Chouinard, speaking for the Supreme Court of Canada, suggested that the obligation to compensate victims independent of fault would be, to use his words, "a wonderful thing."

This case led to a plan in Quebec that compensates victims of permanent physical and mental damage arising from immunization. In Ontario this step would be a logical extension of numerous developments in social welfare that furnish compensation to injured people on a no-fault basis. It would replace or supplement areas of the tort system which imperfectly provide reparation. It would be akin to the workers' compensation system, which operates independently of fault, compensation for victims of crime and the no-fault provisions of auto insurance. There are many precedents for the kind of scheme that the member for Scarborough East is suggesting consultation begin on in earnest.

In Canada, governments have responded to the needs of specially affected citizens whose health has suffered as a result of national or provincial health policies and programs. One example that may immediately come to mind is the federal government grants that were instituted to remove urea formaldehyde foam insulation when it was felt UFFI posed a health risk to those who lived in homes that had been insulated.

Ontario could in fact join Quebec and other jurisdictions that have been mentioned by focusing on the needs of injured victims rather than on narrow legal principles to ensure that the cost of necessary medical services -- this would include long-term care and rehabilitation and all the other costs associated with disability -- be reimbursed on a modest scale, not on a lavish scale. Thus it can be ensured that the families of these innocent vaccine victims will not have to bear a disproportionate share of the cost of meeting the necessities of life for children who contract brain disease following injection.

It would ensure rather that compensation is paid either through a compensation fund established and mandated for pharmaceutical companies or at least spread across society by a government compensation scheme.

Mr Wessenger: I would like to commend the member for Scarborough East for bringing this resolution. I think it brings to the attention of the House the problems of people who suffer through the health care system, the problems we have with our tort system and the fact that the tort system does not work well in providing compensation for victims. I will be supporting the resolution because it calls for a discussion of the matter to see what types of schemes we should come up with. However, I do have some concerns about dealing with the matter on the specific, narrow basis of vaccine alone.

First, there are a very small number of cases in this regard, and I think we have to look at the financial costs of setting up an administrative system or a compensation fund, if that is the process we are going to do, that would add a great deal of administrative cost. We have to be aware that the implementation of this scheme would undoubtedly raise the cost of administering vaccine programs. I am not opposed to the resolution for that reason, but I think we should be aware that there is a cost factor.

Second, I think we have to be aware that this is just a small part of the injury suffered through the health system by many individuals. We have the situation of the victim who got AIDS through receiving blood transfusions. We have other drugs to which there are adverse reactions. So we really ought to be looking at a broader scheme with respect to the whole aspect of compensation rather than just the narrow scope of vaccination.

The other aspect that concerns me is setting up a scheme on the basis of the workers' compensation scheme. The fact is that we still have the problem of determining causation. My friend the member for London South indicated the problems in proving causation with respect to vaccines. I think that is basically a problem. Again, maybe we ought to be looking at a broader type of compensation scheme. I am certainly supportive of developing a broad compensation scheme for people who are victims in our society, a scheme that would rehabilitate them and provide the necessary health care.

In conclusion, I would like to commend the member for bringing this matter to the attention of the House. Hopefully out of the discussions we will take a further step towards providing a better compensation scheme for victims of our health care system.

Mr J. Wilson: I am pleased to rise in support of the member's resolution this morning. I think everyone agrees that some degree of compensation is needed for individuals injured through vaccination. Children maimed by vaccinations are in effect suffering in the line of public duty. Not only are they immunized for their own protection, but also to protect the entire population from disease and from the enormous medical and social costs of epidemics.

There have been discussions involving federal and provincial health officials regarding the feasibility of compensation. Some of the important issues have been resolved and some have not, and we have seen that in the debate at this point this morning.

The problem I have with the member's resolution, although I agree with it in principle, is that it talks of beginning "consultation with the public and with health professionals, pharmaceutical manufacturers and health-related organizations" to implement "a compensation scheme for vaccine-related injury." I think it is premature for us to begin consultations to implement a compensation policy when a consensus is yet to be reached on how to go about this, and so I question the wording of the resolution.

The Ontario Medical Association is recommending an investigation into a compensation scheme instead of the establishment of a scheme at this time. I want to quote from Dr Ted Boadway, the director of health policy at the Ontario Medical Association. He sent me a letter yesterday and in it he talks about a couple of things. He says:

"This is the problem that children who are born with other conditions may have their condition attributed to vaccinations, since vaccination is universal, by parents who desperately would like to find a cause." The member for Simcoe East previously spoke about causation. "You must understand that this search for cause is not motivated by avarice but rather by profound grief." He goes on to say, "These issues can be extremely difficult to decide, and would bedevil any compensation scheme."

Finally he says: "This is why we recommend the 'investigation' rather than the 'establishment' because we have doubts that the state of our knowledge in Ontario allows us to wisely decide the gates of entry to this program. Before you can recommend institution you must have some idea of the gates of entry, or the gates -- or the lack of gates -- will become a threat to the program itself."

I also want to briefly point out a couple of legal questions that I think have to be resolved before implementing any such compensation scheme. Quebec, for instance, has a vaccine injury plan that enables individuals to sue and be compensated, and the question arises, is the compensation money being used at times for unsuccessful lawsuits, and if so, is it being found to be extremely costly for taxpayers?

An additional concern I have is whether you pre-define what constitutes vaccine injury or leave it up to a panel or a series of panels to decide on an injury. Of course, the problem there is that implicit in any such system of adjudication is the notion that adjudicated evidence does not constitute medical evidence. So it is a question of whether we pre-define what we are talking about or allow courts or quasi-judicial panels to decide it.

How would a compensation plan pay out? Would it be like the federal government's plan where they are compensating a couple of thousand haemophiliacs, particularly children, affected by the HIV virus who were infected prior to 1985 when we were not screening the blood supply? They have been paid a lump sum. Does the member for Scarborough East, whose resolution we are debating, have in mind a lump sum payment or a regular payment program? Certainly the lump sum payment in the case of haemophiliacs is considered to be the more compassionate route.

Another concern that was mentioned is whether all the taxpayers pay for such a scheme. Will it fall on the shoulders of pharmaceutical manufacturers? I would argue that it should not, since pharmaceutical manufacturers, in developing the vaccines, are for the most part doing a great public service. Our programs are universal at this point and should not be solely responsible for those cases where injury occurs.

Finally I wonder whether the issue of liability, in the inestimable costs it could present, will serve to jeopardize the future of our immunization program, which could have devastating consequences for the general health of our population and for the quality of life of the people of Ontario.

Ms Carter: I too would like to congratulate the member for Scarborough East and say that I am glad everybody agrees with this resolution. I think they should; it is very desirable. Vaccination, combined with increases in the standard of living and improvements in public hygiene, has probably done more to lengthen life and improve public health than any other advance in medicine.

My grandmother had seven children. Three of them died in infancy from infectious diseases, diphtheria and scarlet fever, I believe. Child mortality figures in particular have been enormously improved by vaccination. Diphtheria, smallpox and polio, which used to be household words, are now largely vanquished and the incidence of some of the less frequently fatal childhood illnesses has also been greatly reduced.

It has already been said that a person who has a vaccination is not just obeying the law or improving his own chances of survival; he is doing a public service. They are reducing the pool of people who can harbour a disease, thus reducing the likelihood that other people, whether vaccinated or not, will get it. Of course, the classic instance of this is the smallpox virus, which was eradicated after a worldwide campaign of vaccination. I can remember when a smallpox vaccination was mandatory for travellers. Now, as a result of universal vaccination, we are relieved of that nuisance.

There is a small number of people who have adverse reactions, some of them permanent, to given vaccines. As far as I know, and as has been said, it would not be possible to determine in advance who those people might be. Thus there is no specific blame to be attached when such adverse reactions occur. I would therefore agree that if vaccination is to be compulsory, and the more widespread and effective it is, then there has to be no-fault compensation for people who suffer damage as a result of receiving vaccination.

The damage is a fact regardless of whether the vaccine was administered properly or whether something was incorrectly done. I can see no point in wasting government money or any other funds on determining whether there was any fault, and I find the third party's pickiness on this issue to be a little counterproductive. Obviously there needs to be machinery in place to discuss negligence, but since damage can occur without negligence this should not be the criterion for compensation.

Quebec alone in Canada has legislation to compensate people. It is time intergovernmental discussions among other provinces in Canada and the federal government bore fruit. Disagreement over details should not stand in the way of the creation of a compensation fund, otherwise blameless individuals will continue to suffer more than they need for co-operating in the search for safer and healthier lives for all of us. I wholeheartedly support this resolution.

Mr Jackson: I am very pleased that occasionally we have new members of the Legislature who bring with them their new ideas and their sense of dedication, but unfortunately they do not bring their full sense of history on some of the important issues before us. In that sense, on the one hand I want to commend the member for Scarborough East for bringing forward this resolution, but I also want to remind the member and his government that a bill similar to this was presented by my colleague Mr Jack Pierce, the member for Rainy River, back in 1986.

From his private member's bill, debated on a morning not unlike this, there was a series of public hearings. First of all, we got the permission of the government of the day to allow it to go to the standing committee on social development, and then have public hearings. What ensued was an incredible education for the members of this House in 1987.

Not only did we meet the Rothwell family and Patrick, the boy who has been discussed here, but we met families from Thunder Bay, where a child had been inoculated for the second time in a month because the medical community in Thunder Bay had misplaced the child's records and that child died. The child's brain actually boiled over during the middle of the night and when they checked with the doctor, the doctor said: "The child's just being colicky. Call me in the morning." The child did not live through the night.

Throughout the entire world there is sufficient evidence that there is cause and effect as it relates to vaccine damage, and in particular with the pertussis vaccine. So when the member for Peterborough talks about pickiness, I want members to know that there is a long history of concern on this issue for members on this side of the House, and in particular Mr Jack Pierce. I have spoken in this House for up to three and a half hours on the issue of vaccine-damaged children in this province and I represent Patrick Rothwell in this Legislature; he is my constituent.

I want to let the members of this House know a couple of facts. We had Bill 98 in 1987. That bill caused a certain protocol to be observed in this province. It said that physicians are obligated under law to inform families of the risks associated with this vaccine. We did not have that law in this province. Parents were going in with a child, with no one to advocate for him except the physician and the parent, who could not articulate his needs as a three-month-old or a six-month-old child. We were not routinely informing people and that is what happened to Patrick Rothwell. The family had no idea that if he had an adverse reaction, it might be related to the vaccine.

We now have that protocol in place, but when we had all agreed that we should inform the patient, the government of the day changed the legislation to say just simply to cause the patient to be aware. In other words, if the pamphlet is in the doctor's office in this province, that is sufficient to cover him legally -- the information about risks with adverse reactions to vaccines. That is not good enough. It is not good enough in most of the jurisdictions in North America, but it seems to be good enough in Ontario.

We are supposed to be keeping a registry of all the adverse reactions with children in this province and yet we know that is not going on. Like the registry we have for women who died during childbirth, there are supposed to be records kept. They are sitting in some file cabinet in the Ministry of Health. Nobody is analysing them and examining them.

Let me tell members the most important aspect of this issue. There are provinces, and states in the United States, that will not use the vaccine we routinely use in this province. Some Third World countries do not use our vaccine but we have a very cheap vaccine. In 1987 Connaught Laboratories was charging $3 an inoculation. It raised it to $8 so it could create a fund for insurance in case it went to court. I have not heard anybody discuss this insurance money that Connaught Laboratories has been stockpiling over the years and how that relates to this issue of compensation.

I think that is an area we should be discussing, but because we have public health care in this province -- other jurisdictions that do not are able to develop compensation schemes by using the cost associated with what is charged for the inoculation.

We should be looking at the kind of research going on around the world. In Japan they are using split-cell approaches to this vaccine to get a much safer vaccine with documented empirical results that show they have fewer adverse reactions causing death.

As my time is running out I want to put on the record, especially on Patrick Rothwell's behalf, that if you open up this vaccine in this province today, there is a warning that says, "The parents should be questioned about the occurrences of any severe adverse reactions after the previous dose." That is the warning. If you look to the drug formulary books they will tell you that sudden infant death syndrome can be connected to this vaccine. It has been reported following administration of vaccines containing diphtheria, tetanus and toxoids.

There are a lot of important issues about this, the issue of compensation. I commend the member for raising it, but in 1987 we were told there would be a compensation plan and discussion.

The Deputy Speaker: Thank you, your time has expired.

Mr Jackson: It is now five years late. Let's get on with it in this province.

The Deputy Speaker: The member for Scarborough East, you have two minutes to reply.

Mr Frankford: I have very much enjoyed listening to the contributions of the members on all sides. It really was my purpose to try to stimulate awareness of this issue, and I quite deliberately restricted it to the question of vaccination, although I am happy to hear the suggestions about broadening it. I thought that since there is this question, as the Conservative Party Health critic said, of injury in the line of public duty, this makes it particularly pressing to do something in this particular area.

I would like to acknowledge the contribution of the member for Oriole and her reference to the Prichard report, which I certainly am aware of. I do hope it is going to be discussed, because it does raise important questions about combining no-fault with tort. I think this is something which is of great interest in a broad range of areas. It gets into automobile insurance and other areas, so I thank her for raising that question.

Since there is not much time, the question of cost has not been raised all that much and I would have liked to spend more time on it but, as the member for Burlington South said, there is insurance. The companies are paying insurance right now. Physicians are paying their liability insurance, which in fact now gets topped up by the government. I think there are funds which could be reallocated into this but, as I say, the resolution is about consultations and I trust all these things will be brought into it.

FUNDING OF GROWTH BOARDS

Mr Sola moved resolution 28:

That, in the opinion of this House, given that there is extraordinary population growth in the areas of the greater Toronto area immediately surrounding Metropolitan Toronto, and that current development plans, such as the Sandringham-Wellindale development in Brampton, and the pattern of immigrant settlement suggest that such growth will continue indefinitely, and given that in 1991 the growth boards, namely, the Peel Board of Education, the Dufferin-Peel Roman Catholic Separate School Board, the Durham Board of Education, the Durham Region Roman Catholic Separate School Board, the York Region Board of Education and the York Region Roman Catholic Separate School Board, were seriously underfunded in comparison to their expressed capital requirements, the present government of Ontario should undertake to develop a capital funding formula particular to these growth boards to take into consideration their extraordinary needs.

The Deputy Speaker: Pursuant to standing order 94(c)(i), the honourable member has 10 minutes for his presentation.

Mr Sola: The reason I had to move this resolution was the receipt of a couple of letters, one dated October 2 from the Dufferin-Peel Roman Catholic Separate School Board and one from the chairman of the Growth Boards' Coalition, Mr Harry Bowes, which was mailed to the former Minister of Education, the member for London Centre, on October 1 this year. Both of them highlight the problems that the growth boards are experiencing.

A little bit of background information to start off with: As we all know, there is an extraordinary rate of growth in the areas immediately surrounding Metropolitan Toronto, and this rate of growth can be described as mushrooming, not growth, because none of the municipalities can keep up with the demand for services the growth has engendered. For instance, in Brampton this new development, Sandringham-Wellindale, will develop a whole community. I will allow my colleague the member for Brampton North to tell us more about the problems that will cause, because they will be causing a few grey hairs in his head, I think.

The growth boards which were named in the resolution requested $796 million for the year 1991 for capital projects and they received a total of $75 million. That is less than 10%. All these boards put together are currently using 3,015 portables. That means that out of a total of 345,000 students enrolled in these boards, at any one time you can have up to 90,000 sitting in portables. That is more than most boards have enrolled.

The extraordinary growth of these boards is just that, extraordinary, meaning that because there are special circumstances, they deserve special treatment. Where else in this province are children taught in such conditions?

I want to give members a breakdown of what the various boards requested and what they received from the provincial government in 1991. The York region separate school board asked for $141 million and was allocated $15 million for capital projects. They are presently employing 365 portables. The York region public school board asked for $62 million and received $11 million. They are employing 726 portables. The Durham region separate board asked for $111 million and received $9 million, requiring the use of 147 portables. The Durham public board asked for $92 million, received $7 million and uses 500 portables.

The Dufferin-Peel separate school board asked for $322 million and was allocated only $25 million, requiring the use of 630 portables. The Peel public board asked for $68 million, received $8 million and is using 637 portables.

What are the problems with the underfunding of capital projects? First of all, there is the growth of portables. As I said, there are 3,015 portables in the growth boards, and taking an average of 30 students per portable, which is what the student-teacher ratio is in the growth boards, that comes out to over 90,000 students. This means that a huge number of children are being educated in structures that were designed to be temporary. Some of these temporary structures have been in place now for over 30 years. Because they are temporary, they are causing problems which have nothing to do with education.

Here I would like to refer to the letter from the Dufferin-Peel Roman Catholic Separate School Board, dated October 2 and addressed to me. It says:

"As you are well aware, the Dufferin-Peel Roman Catholic Separate School Board has faced and is facing a number of critical issues: inadequate amounts and levels of provincial funding; taxpayer concerns about education costs, and others. As you may have noted recently in the press, we are now encountering yet another serious issue -- that of indoor air quality."

It goes on to say later in the letter:

"The report details, among other board concerns, the need for regulated/legislated standards related to indoor air quality; the lack of interministerial consensus on IAQ issues; the complexity in attempting to determine all the variables related to IAQ; the potential considerable cost to the board to install mechanical ventilation units in its portable classrooms if required and the cost to the local ratepayers of studies to determine the nature and extent of our problems regarding IAQ."

They go on to give five recommendations: that the board request the Ministry of Education, in co-operation with other appropriate ministries, to establish regulated indoor air quality standards and to provide adequate funding to ensure that schools meet such standards; that local MPPs be requested to address this issue in the Legislature as soon as possible; that the Dufferin-Peel Roman Catholic Separate School Board establish a task force consisting of trustees, staff and parents to study indoor air quality issues and to provide recommendations; that in order to assess indoor air quality through the system, the board authorize the expenditure of funds, not to exceed $20,000, to expand the study to determine ventilation rates in a representative sample of portable and portapac classrooms, and finally, that the board authorize the expenditure of funds, not to exceed $80,000, for piloting, at St Basil Elementary School and other sites selected by staff according to criteria which will be reported and approved to the board, a variety of mechanical devices and alternative measures, with a view to finding the best solutions related to indoor air quality issues which can be generalized to the rest of the board.

Members can see from just this one letter what problems result from having too many portables and portapacs.

I would like to touch on another issue and just show members what the students are facing in several schools. Bishop Scalabrini, for instance, was designed to accommodate 500 students. Its 1990 enrolment was almost 1,100 and it was forced to use 20 portables. Father Michael Goetz was designed for 1,100. In 1990 enrolment was 1,900. They were forced to use 25 portables. St Martin, which my two daughters attend, designed for less than 700, had an enrolment of almost 1,500, forcing it to use 25 portables.

Loyola Catholic Secondary School, designed for 750, last year had an enrolment of over 1,400, requiring 26 portables. Here is a real interesting one: Our Lady of Mount Carmel, designed for less than 1,100, last year had an enrolment of over 1,400. They were forced to use 15 portables last year, and to date, as I am speaking, they are in the process of putting up their 30th. In one year they have put up 15 more.

I would like to refer now in the last few minutes I have to the letter of October 1 addressed to the former Minister of Education by Harry Bowes, the chairman of the Growth Boards' Coalition. It states, and this was also reiterated by my colleague the member for York North, who is the critic for Education, that the former Liberal government passed Bill 20, legislation which would provide boards of education with the opportunity to put in place lot levies to raise moneys for the construction of new schools.

To date, they have waited over 22 months to get authority to hold public meetings and to pass the necessary bylaws and they are really concerned, because not only are they losing money, but the provincial government is forced to allocate additional moneys to meet the needs.

Mr McLean: I welcome this opportunity to comment briefly on this resolution from the member for Mississauga East. I would like to read the resolution into the record again. It says:

"That, in the opinion of this House, given that there is extraordinary population growth in the areas of the greater Toronto area immediately surrounding Metropolitan Toronto, and that current development plans, such as the Sandringham-Wellindale development in Brampton, and the pattern of immigrant settlement suggest that such growth will continue indefinitely, and given that in 1991 the growth boards, namely, the Peel Board of Education, the Dufferin-Peel Roman Catholic Separate School Board, the Durham Board of Education, the Durham Region Roman Catholic Separate School Board, the York Region Board of Education and the York Region Roman Catholic Separate School Board, were seriously underfunded in comparison to their expressed capital requirements, the present government of Ontario should undertake to develop a capital funding formula particular to these growth boards to take into consideration their extraordinary needs."

I have some reservations about this resolution, because it focuses exclusively on the greater Toronto area and ignores other critical areas of Ontario.

In Ontario, we are in serious danger of having a generation of students go through school in substandard facilities. As many as four students are forced to share lockers because schools are occupied by twice as many students as were intended in some areas of this province. Some schools have little outdoor recreation space because playgrounds and track facilities are covered with portable classrooms. I have some serious concerns about the health and safety of students who are faced with getting an education under such an outdated system.

Under Ontario's current system, taxes raised through commercial and industrial assessment are shared between school boards, based on the number of home owners who list themselves on the tax rolls as separate or public school supporters.

Quoting from the New Democratic Party's Agenda for People:

"The Liberals like to talk about international competitiveness and preparing for the next century. Yet they've broken their promise of 60% funding for elementary and secondary schools, putting the squeeze on quality education and property taxpayers.

"New Democrats propose raising the provincial share of education costs to 60% over five years, providing a solid base for a better education system and lifting some of the load of property taxes. The cost of this initiative over the next two years would be $1.5 billion. That's also $1.5 billion in property tax relief for Ontarians. We want to reverse the punishing increases in property taxes which hit seniors and low-income people especially hard." This is the same government that has cut back on student funds for university.

I suggest that the NDP Agenda for People and the resolution before us today are examples of inadequate solutions to problems created by an outdated system for raising and distributing money for education purposes. I also suggest the time has come for us to undertake a complete review of education funding in Ontario.

In line with the third recommendation of the select committee on education's third report, I believe co-operation with the education community is essential to define the types and level of programs and services that constitute a basic education, and to calculate the component costs of these services. Provincial support for education would be determined by this new model.

These funding reforms would ensure that every school board in the province has sufficient resources to provide equality of educational opportunity for every child. In the interim, no new provincial initiatives should be introduced without adequate provincial resources for their implementation.

In consultation with the education community, the government should look towards the establishment of an option for the creation of consolidated school boards, where both the public and the separate school boards wish to do so. Consolidated school boards would be composed of one joint administrative board and two educational panels, allowing for greater cost efficiencies and more effective use of resources.

I believe enhanced internal and external audit procedures for school boards are necessary to ensure cost-effective use of tax dollars. I recognize the need to establish a separate capital expenditure budget to cover the cost of renovations and repairs of the existing stock. I also recognize the need for government to work with the development industry to build new schools in growth areas of the province. Under this leaseback concept, home builders would retain ownership of the land, build a school and then lease it back to the school board for a specific period.

This would ensure that new schools would be built at the same time as subdivisions, eliminating the need for portables in growth areas.

Perhaps the government should review the education lot levy and allow school boards to issue bonds with preferred income tax rates to finance the local share of capital construction.

Just recently, one of the school board members in my riding had a meeting with the Ministry of the Environment on the reasonable land use policy with regard to school boards in the county. The indication I had from that meeting was that now we are not going to be able to put additions on to schools because of the septic system requirement of the Ministry of the Environment. In a school with an enrolment of 218 pupils, they require an additional 114 acres to put an addition on to that school. In a school in Wyevale with 245 pupils, the acreage required for 350 students would be 61 and for 500 students would be 87.

There are other examples in East Oro, Guthrie and Medonte East of the additional acreage required to put additions on to schools. What they are really saying is that there are going to be no more additions to rural schools, so the Ministry of the Environment and the Ministry of Education had better start looking at the reasonable land use policy applying to the school boards across this province.

Mr Martin: It gives me some deal of pleasure to rise this morning as the member for Sault Ste Marie and parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Education to speak to this resolution.

First of all, I want to say to the member for Mississauga East that he certainly brings to us today a very real problem, one that I do not think any of us does not recognize, one that I do not think any of us has not in some way been lobbied about over the last number of months.

All of us who represent ridings across Ontario that have school boards therein recognize that the funding of education is a challenge that faces this province in a more critical way now than it ever has in its past. However, this problem is not a challenge -- let's call it that -- unique to the greater Toronto area. It is a problem all of us experience across the province. It is not a problem the government has not recognized and is not trying to grapple with and come up with some answers to.

I think it is important to recognize two factors. One of them is that the challenge of education is province-wide and that we must consider the whole province when we look at how we fund education. Not only that but, in looking at the funding of education, we must be very concerned as well about where we raise that money, where it comes from and how we do that. It is a much more complicated issue than simply levying taxes on people who are building new homes and that sort of thing.

This government has responded to that challenge, actually, in two ways. We have launched the Fair Tax Commission, which will allow us to look at this problem in its fullness, in all its factors. We recognize there is a problem in the collection of taxes and how we spend them. There is a demand on the government today for moneys as there never was before, particularly in front of the recession that we have raging.

This is the question being asked by the Fair Tax Commission: Is the current property tax system capable of meeting the revenue requirements associated with local governments' and school boards' program delivery responsibilities while imposing a fair tax burden on property owners? If not, what changes should be made to the property tax system and/or other funding sources for local governments and/or school boards to improve the fairness of their revenue-raising requirements?

I think the operative word here in both the collection of taxes and the spending of taxes is "fairness," certainly recognizing that Metropolitan Toronto has a particular problem at the moment. A number of the boards the member for Mississauga East spoke of were in my office speaking very passionately and eloquently about their own particular situation. However, every weekend when I go home I hear the same story from my own boards.

It is also important to know that the Ministry of Education has launched a discussion around this question in an effort to participate more positively with the Fair Tax Commission. It has started an education reform project and put out a consultation paper that will include all the major players. The focus of that particular exercise will be on providing equity to the learner in Ontario and also being fair and responsible to the taxpayer.

As I said in my opening remarks, I appreciate the opportunity to speak to this. I recognize it as a very important challenge in front of us as a government. I suggest that we as a government are responding in a responsible way. We are looking at the problem in its fullness. We appreciate, invite and will consider seriously any discussion or input that members across the floor and particularly our partners out in the communities might have on this important question.

Mr Curling: What an opportunity to remind this government of its responsibilities. It is very easy. I want to just come from a base, all the time, from their bible or charter, the Agenda for People. They are very familiar with that, because it is a document with which they are guiding themselves to destruction, as a matter of fact, because of reneging.

The member for Simcoe East mentioned exactly the direction in which they felt they would be going and also some of the broken promises of the Liberal government. When we are speaking about broken promises, we just have to see the government across the way. I am very encouraged by the members on the government side who have recognized the importance of lack of funding. Not only have they broken their promise on the operating costs, but they have also reneged on their commitments to capital funding.

We have seen the rapid growth that has taken place, Mr Speaker. I am from the riding of Scarborough North, which I know you have visited very regularly. I encourage many of the members here to visit that wonderful place of Scarborough, specifically Scarborough North, which is an example of the diversity and growth of Ontario and the need for capital funding, especially in the school system.

When the Liberal government was in power in 1990, it allocated to the Scarborough Board of Education grants totalling over $8 million for the construction of two schools. As members will remember, that included child care centres for both schools, quite a forward-looking policy.

The NDP says now that the cupboard is bare. As a matter of fact, they are beyond even thinking properly how to construct the economy. When they looked into that cupboard they said it was bare, but when they reached their hands in there, they found money to pay off the teachers, they found money for Ontario Hydro and the exorbitant salary they are paying Mr Eliesen, and they found money for many other things. But to find money to educate our children --

Mr McClelland: The future of the province.

Mr Curling: The future of the province, as my colleague the member for Brampton North states; no foresight at all, no commitment in that direction. It pains my heart that the cupboard is bare, not for doctors, not for the Ontario Public Service Employees Union, but for our children.

Between 1981 and 1986, Scarborough grew or increased by 9.3%. On a comparative basis the city of York grew by 6% and the city of Toronto by 2.2%. More recent estimates point to even more dramatic growth, with much of our community's population increasingly made up of the many new Canadians who arrive and contribute so well to our population.

The member for Scarborough East nodded in agreement, realizing the urgent need for that funding. I am sure he has visited the portables; if he has not done so, I would encourage him to visit the portables that are there. Many of the students are now studying in portables. They had identified the need when in opposition, then the third party, that this was so needed, so much so that they put it in the Agenda for People.

I would like to clear this up, but I decided not to because I feel they will come to their senses. We have colleagues on this side who are prepared to sit with them to show them where the priorities are, because most times the socialists over on that side talk a lovely talk but they do not walk. It is time for them to walk the walk and scrap the talking. The consultation, the constant consult, consult, "in order for us to consult" is a lot of talk, of rhetoric.

Our children are hurting. For us to compete we must have the equipment and the facilities. I urge them to encourage those ministers who sit close by to change the priority and put the proper funding within the school system.

The Deputy Speaker: The member for Mississauga South.

[Applause]

Mrs Marland: I appreciate the applause, especially from the government members this morning.

It is a pleasure to rise to support the resolution of my colleague the member for Mississauga East. I also congratulate him on the first resolution he has had an opportunity to bring forward in his four and a half years in the House. Since we are on a lottery system, we do not all get to the top of the heap with our lottery draw for this opportunity.

However, the one concern I have about the resolution is that it is limited. I wish it would have gone further into the real problem that exists today for the funding of education in Ontario, not only in terms of the capital cost but also the operating cost for schools and the education systems.

The travesty of what has been going on for the last six years in Ontario is that both the present government and the previous government -- the Liberal government -- have not made education the priority it needed to be, nor have they fulfilled the responsibility with which they are mandated, to give an equal opportunity for education to every child in this province.

During our Conservative election campaign of last year, we actually put forward a very realistic suggestion, and that was that there should be two separate capital funds to address two different needs, one being the construction and building of new schools and the other being renovation and repairs to existing schools.

We can have schools in older areas of new-growth boards and the Peel Board of Education and the Dufferin-Peel Roman Catholic Separate School Board are two very good examples of that, but I would like to give members an example of a school in my riding in Mississauga South, which is one of the Dufferin-Peel Roman Catholic Separate School Board's elementary schools, and it is St James school.

If members were to visit St James school, they would find a facility for education in Mississauga South that they would not believe could exist in terms of its being crowded and with a total lack of facilities for a full curriculum program for those children.

I have stood in this House every year for all the years I have been here and talked about St James school. I have stood in this House and begged every Minister of Education to come and visit St James school and try to understand why each had a responsibility as Minister of Education to make the renovation and repairs to existing stock as big a priority as funding new schools, so that children who are in any part of this province at least have an equal opportunity because they have an equal type of facility. The children in St James school do not have a gymnasium or an auditorium. They have to be bused to outside facilities like church halls to rehearse for school concerts and similar events.

Their physical education program is limited because of not having a gymnasium. Of course, as with so many schools in the region of Peel, a large proportion of the students are in portables. We now have a new Minister of Education and I will be writing my routine letter to him to see if we can yet convince a Minister of Education in this province to care about older schools that need repair and renovation.

I wrote repeatedly to the Liberal ministers of education. I wrote to the member for London Centre, the previous Minister of Education in the current socialist government. As I said a moment ago, I will be writing to our new Minister of Education, the member for Dovercourt.

It is really significant that for the last six years the number of children in portables in this province has increased by 102.6%, over 100% more children in portables today in Ontario than when the Progressive Conservative Party was the government and responsible for education.

We have these horrific figures of children in portables. At this point I would like to mention on behalf of the member for Willowdale that at Brebeuf Secondary School, which is a Metropolitan Separate School Board facility in his riding, 60% of the students are in portables. In the Dufferin-Peel separate school board and the Peel Board of Education in Peel, over 50% of the children are in portables.

At the same time we have all these children in portables, which in my opinion is substandard education in terms of the opportunity of an environment, the cost of education is more and more being transferred down to the lower levels of government, namely, the municipal level of funding. The school boards themselves are now having to debenture and borrow the money to build their new schools. Who pays the cost of that borrowing? The property taxpayers. I have a great deal of concern with what is going on in the province today, and I hope there will be a remedy for it.

Mr Fletcher: I rise not to support the resolution but to show some sympathy for the resolution. As a former trustee with the Wellington County Board of Education, I know too well the problems with underfunding. I have seen the people on our board, the administration work hard with the lack of funding over the years. It is not something that has happened just today. This problem is not a problem that lurks only in Mississauga or somewhere else like that. It is throughout the province and that is something I think we have to address quite clearly.

If members look at the area of Guelph which has seen unprecedented growth over the last few years, that is not just an overflow of people from Toronto; that also brings in people from outside the province and people from outside the country.

The problems in my riding are the same as members would find in most ridings in Ontario: overcrowded schools, busing children long distances so that they can find available space, and administration being pushed out and squeezed out. The problems are there and we cannot just keep throwing money we do not have at the situation. I think my colleague the member for Sault Ste Marie mentioned some of the programs that we are implementing as a government.

When people talk about the quality of education, as I said, being a former trustee I know how dedicated and how hardworking the teachers are in Wellington county. That is why the quality of education in Wellington county is so high; also the administration, which has to work with the lack of funds and try to implement some of the programs the government puts on us.

What it is going to take is some co-operation between school boards and the provincial government, and also co-operation in this House between the opposition and the government, to help us put our programs through so we can start dealing with some of the problems that the underfunding problem has created. We have to realize, as I said before, that this did not start overnight. This started with the extreme right-wing party, when Bill Davis was Minister of Education and was starting to tinker with the system, and it has not stopped since.

When I was a trustee for five years, it was during five years of economic boom and the Liberals were in power and we could not get a penny out of them this way or that way. As I said, it did not start overnight. The problems started there, they continued there and now the member is saying to us to fix it for his area. We cannot do it overnight. We are going to take our time to do it and we are going to make sure that the economy can support our education system before we start throwing more money at it.

Mr McClelland: Let me at the outset address a few comments made by my friend the member for Guelph. His point is well taken. There is a problem that attaches to school boards across the province, and to any that are high-growth areas. I think my friend the member for Mississauga East has tried to focus the issue with respect to the areas in the GTA, because that is where there is a significant problem with respect to growth.

I want to talk very briefly about a point that was raised by the member for Guelph. He said that the former government did nothing. I remind him that the previous government, prior to the Peterson government, had flat-lined capital funding for year after year. In the year I was elected, I say to my friend opposite, it went from $75 million to $300 million. I would say that is doing an awful lot. In the boards I represent, the areas that are contiguous with my riding, more money was spent in the Peel board than was spent previously in the entire province. I think it is important that the record show the former government responded.

I asked the question at that time, "How much is enough?" When it comes to this issue, one could argue that you never have enough. But for the members now in government to have flat-lined what we did in government is really just totally unacceptable. They have betrayed the promise they made that they would address the problem. They have flat-lined. They have in fact done what the Conservative government did and have flat-lined capital funding for schools. I think the member for Guelph should keep that important point in focus.

I want to say to the people of Ontario, particularly those in high-growth areas, that right now school boards are presenting their capital funding proposals to the Ministry of Education. School boards are now presenting their capital needs for the next provincial budget. I would urge every parent who has a child in a portable in the greater Toronto area and indeed across the province, to phone the Premier at 325-1941 and tell him that you are not satisfied that your child is receiving an education in a portable.

Call the Premier at 325-1941 or fax him at 325-3745 and make a phone call for every child who is in a portable. In my area alone that would be some 36,000 phone calls to the Premier's office. I urge parents to do that.

I want to tell members what the Premier said when he was just "Call me Brother Bob," before he became the imperial Premier. He said, "Every time they" -- school boards -- "build a new school in the area a few kilometres northwest of Toronto problems are added right away, which is a direct product of the underfunding of the government. School boards have been wrestling with rapid growth without getting enough money from the provincial government."

A year ago, prior to the election, in the summer of 1990, before he was cloaked in the regal robes he prances around in now, the Premier said, "I'll take care of it." On August 10, 1990, he said, "The Peel Board of Education" -- which includes Huttonville -- "is one of the largest in Canada and has 18,000 of its 93,000 students studying in portables." He promised an NDP government would increase government spending on education, but he would not reveal the details until later in the campaign. The campaign is past. It has been more than a year since he was sworn in as Premier and I have seen nothing happen in the area board. It has been flat-lined.

I take particular exception to that. We took a lot of heat. We did the best we could and we did not do well enough. I admit we did not do well enough, because when it comes to providing adequate funding for our children, you cannot do too much. But the year before the member for York South became Premier, 28 capital projects were funded in Peel. Last year, under the Premier who promised he would take care of this problem, five capital projects were funded. The people of Ontario and Peel cannot accept that in light of his promise. I again urge them to call the Premier, to fax the Premier and tell him, "Bob Rae, live up to your promise."

Mrs MacKinnon: Education has long been of great interest to me and it continues to be now that I find myself as the elected member for Lambton. Many will be aware that I was serving on the Lambton County Board of Education at the time of my election. I well remember during my term as a trustee the many concerns I, along with my colleagues, had at budget time trying to match the dollars available to the programs we were trying to implement. I very well remember looking at the dollar amounts being requested and the dollar amounts projected by the collection of taxes. I need not tell anyone the two never matched; indeed, the budget dollars were far more than the dollars available.

It goes without saying that it is still that way. With the onslaught of this recession dollars for education are still in short supply. It appears to me that at a time of restraint such as we find ourselves in it is necessary for all school boards in Ontario, including Lambton county's, to become more innovative as to how they are spending their dollars.

I cannot support this resolution because in my opinion all boards of education are experiencing population growth. I really believe the boards named in the resolution are experiencing and will continue to experience extraordinary population growth, but it would be very difficult and unfair for any government to fund different boards of education across the province in different ways.

It would be easy for me to present a case for Lambton county to qualify for such extra consideration. There is no need for separate capital funding. Separate capital funding will only make for severe problems of understanding with other boards of education. All boards of education, including Lambton county's, are experiencing a shortfall of funding because of rising costs.

As I alluded to previously, the recession we find ourselves in makes the job that much more difficult. Our government has formed the first Fair Tax Commission, which will be looking for things to help education financing. Also, the Ministry of Education has set up an education finance committee to take a look at the funding of education. Important as education is to all of us, we as a government are doing and have done all that can be done during a very severe recession.

Mrs Caplan: I am pleased to rise in the debate today and I want to congratulate my colleague the member for Mississauga East for raising this issue during private members' hour.

There is a goal we all share in this Legislature. During private members' hour we have a chance to talk about our goals. I think everyone in this Legislature wants the children of Ontario to have the very best education possible. I think they realize that the very best learning environment will enhance the learning opportunities for the children in the province.

We are also concerned, all of us, about an environment which is substandard or less than optimal or unacceptable, as we have heard from the member for Mississauga East in his description of the kinds of substandard conditions in place, particularly in the GTA, because of the very rapid increases in enrolment over the last few years. This has led to a concern that the learning experience will be diminished and that our children will not be having the best educational opportunity we all want them to have.

What should the government do about it? I can tell members how disturbed and distressed I am that there was no speaker out of the government benches from the GTA and no speaker who really understood the exceptional pressures of rapid growth and rapid enrolment increases that the boards in the GTA are experiencing.

We heard calls for innovation at the boards. There is a real opportunity, and I would like to be helpful this morning during private members' hour in suggesting to the new government what it can do to address this. It is their responsibility to set their priorities. They have to be really clear about what their priorities are and then reallocate available resources. No taxpayer in this province wants to see increases in taxes -- certainly I as a taxpayer do not want increases -- but there are some resources that could be reallocated.

For example, they came out with a $700 million anti-recession fund. The beauty of using capital to stimulate the economy in education is that there are no operating implications. Their formula for funding education is fixed. They could have used a substantial portion of the $700 million to build badly needed schools, particularly in the GTA. They could have recognized that need and put their money where their mouth was a year ago during the election campaign. They could have done it. They allocated money but they did not set the priority. They are building noise barriers along our highways.

It is nice to have noise barriers, but is that their priority? Let's put that money towards schools. There are things they could be doing in setting priorities that could be really clear.

We are in a recession right now. During this recession we are seeing increases in vacancy rates. There are also huge operating implications in building more social housing. Maybe some of those dollars should be going into education capital instead. Those are the kinds of decisions that they as the government can make as they go through their allocation process. They are not making them. They are not managing the available resources. They are not setting clear priorities.

They are not sending the message out to the people of this province that they know how to stimulate the economy to get us out of the recession and that they know how to manage the available resources as effectively as possible to achieve the common goals we share. I am very concerned about that.

When I listen to the bureaucratic palaver coming out of the members who spoke this morning, I am really worried. On behalf of my own constituents in the riding of Oriole, the people in the GTA and the people of this province, this government has to get its act together. It has to understand its role. It has to look at reallocation of existing dollars and putting them where its priorities are.

I say very clearly that they have got to do it now. Sending it all off to the Fair Tax Commission and waiting until 1994-95 to take some action is unacceptable. The children of this province need their attention now. The people of this province need their attention now. We are here to help them. They do not accept any of our good ideas when we propose them. At least today they should support this important proposal from the member for Mississauga East and send a message to their government.

Mr O'Connor: I want to thank the member for Mississauga East for bringing this resolution to the House today because I, as the member for Durham-York -- I also live in the riding -- have four school boards. They are the four growth school boards we are talking about here today. I share a lot of the concerns the member has raised.

Perhaps the motion is somewhat flawed, because it does not address the whole education system. In referring to that, I would like to point out the work done by the standing committee on public accounts and its report this year. It pointed out a couple of different problems with education funding. One of the school boards we looked at was the York Region Roman Catholic Separate School Board. Last year they looked at having a deficit of $18 million, a very serious problem. But some of the problems are basically because of funding discrepancies.

Again, high growth becomes part of the problem, and of course their allowance to fund in different ways just exacerbated the problem. They worked quite closely in the minister's office trying to resolve some of these problems. That is what has to be done.

In looking at school boards, we have to take a look at the broader problems right across the province. In public accounts we looked at that. These are a couple of the boards that were looked at by the Provincial Auditor, and the auditor looked at the Lakehead school board up in the north too. They addressed a lot of different concerns and the problem they had was a lack of control of spending and auditing. That needs to be addressed and is something that will be addressed. It is something we have to take a look at right across the province. It is actually somewhat flawed.

The auditor addressed some of the problems at the Ministry of Education regarding inadequate documentation around capital expenditure and forecasting. The ministry has worked with the auditor in trying to meet some of those requirements. It is something that again points out the whole broader issue beyond schools and school boards within the GTA.

I can point out one of the schools in my riding that has an overcrowding situation, which of course causes safety and hygiene problems. The parents there have been calling for a new school for years now -- "Build us our new school" -- and rightly so. There have been a lot of new schools built within the region and they have not received theirs yet.

I also remember last year in the late spring, when the capital expenditures were being submitted by the school boards for approval, that these parents from the school actually took a look at trying to solve some of the problems and trying to restructure the whole system right within the whole town of Uxbridge. That is creative thinking. It is trying to use money that did not need capital dollars and trying to put a little fairness into it.

There was a request put in for $2.1 billion and the only money we had available was $300 million for capital expenditure funding. We have to take a look at that and we have to recognize it. We also have to remember, as the member for Scarborough East mentioned, that we have only one taxpayer. When we go looking for school taxes we have to keep that in mind. That is something we have to take a look at.

Among the different issues raised during our committee hearings was the lack of accountability as far as some of the school boards are concerned, because of the audit committees they have. There needs to be more public participation. Bring in some of the parents and sit down and discuss some of the needs that need to be addressed within the schools and within the school system.

I think the problem is not just within the GTA. It goes far beyond that. We have to take a look at that as a government and recognize the special needs within the GTA. I thank the member for Mississauga East for bringing this resolution forward today.

Mr Sola: I would like to thank all the members who participated: the members for Simcoe East, Sault Ste Marie, Scarborough North, Mississauga South, Guelph, Lambton, Oriole and Durham-York. I accept some of the criticisms and I welcome the suggestions that were made. I think it is time education stopped being a political football, something used during an election campaign to build up support and conveniently forgotten once the election campaign is over.

As we have noted, delay just magnifies the problem. I realize that my resolution was limited in scope because it concentrated on the areas immediately surrounding Metropolitan Toronto. That is the area I am most familiar with and for which I had the most facts. For instance, when the member for Guelph notes that his area is now a growth area, it shows the danger in the NDP government's response that will put education funding on the back of the Fair Tax Commission for consideration.

By the time they finish their deliberations and make their recommendations, we may have several other areas that will be considered growth areas because they are behind in their facilities as far as the number of students is concerned.

If the members accept the principle of the resolution, that we should develop a formula that will look more adequately after the needs of our students, I will be happy. But I would hate to use the limited scope of my resolution for ignoring the problems that have occurred in this province. These problems were there when we had a Conservative government, they were there when we had a Liberal government, they are here under the NDP. Our government tried to do something about it and I hope the NDP will do so as well.

COMPENSATION FOR VACCINE-RELATED INJURY

The Deputy Speaker: Mr Frankford has moved resolution 27.

Motion agreed to.

FUNDING OF GROWTH BOARDS

The House divided on Mr Sola's motion of resolution 28, which was negatived on the following vote:

Ayes -- 25

Bradley, Brown, Caplan, Carr, Hansen, Jackson, Malkowski, Marchese, Marland, McClelland, McGuinty, Miclash, Mills, Murdoch, B., O'Connor, Perruzza, Phillips, G., Ruprecht, Sola, Sterling, Tilson, Turnbull, White, Wilson, J., Wiseman.

Nays -- 26

Bisson, Carter, Christopherson, Cooper, Dadamo, Drainville, Duignan, Farnan, Fletcher, Frankford, Haeck, Harrington, Hayes, Hope, Kormos, Lessard, MacKinnon, Martin, Mathyssen, Morrow, Owens, Ward, B., Waters, Wessenger, Wilson, G., Winninger.

The House recessed at 1212.

AFTERNOON SITTING

The House resumed at 1330.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

BILINGUISME EN ONTARIO

Mais en juin dernier, lors du Sommet de la francophonie ontarienne, le ministre délégué aux Affaires francophones a annoncé que l'Ontario ne serait pas déclaré officiellement bilingue. Plus que cela, les Franco-Ontariens n'ont plus de chance de participer dans le processus gouvernemental puisque le ministre a dispersé le Conseil d'éducation franco-ontarien.

Maintenant, l'ACFO et la communauté franco-ontarienne attendent un signe de vie du Bureau du premier ministre.

TVONTARIO

Mr B. Murdoch: TVOntario says it helps Ontarians develop the skills they require to successfully participate and compete in the world of rapid change and global challenge. For the sake of the public of this province, I hope TVO is not planning to lead by example and teach its viewers to avoid paying taxes, for that is exactly what this publicly funded community channel is doing.

TVOntario owns 97 acres of land in Grey and uses eight of these acres for a tower. The rest is good farm land, part of which is rented out to a farm family and for which TVOntario receives revenue in the form of rent. I realize TVO is relying on the Assessment Act to avoid paying anything towards the wellbeing of its host municipality, but it seems that such a corporation, which prides itself on serving the public, would realize that it is not held in very high esteem when people see it collecting rent and contributing nothing to the upkeep of the roads.

The municipal tax assistance act enables crown corporations to pay an amount in lieu of taxes at their discretion. I would ask that the Minister of Culture and Communications look into this matter and decree that TVO at least pay the municipality for the portion of land that it rents out. How can TVO purport to serve the public when it is seen by my constituents to be unwilling to fulfil its community responsibilities?

ADULT LITERACY

Mr Winninger: I am pleased to rise in the House today to recognize the work of a distinguished Canadian from London, Ontario. Mary Oliver, administrator of adult education for the London Board of Education, recently received two honours for her work to overcome adult illiteracy. In May she accepted the Lamp of Learning award from the Ontario Secondary School Teachers' Federation, and last Wednesday she was awarded the Ivey award for excellence from the London Foundation.

Mary Oliver, a voluntary tutor in 1978, became administrator of the program in 1981 and now oversees a program with 2,000 learners, 140 volunteer tutors and 25 full- and part-time paid teachers. She tells me that the program's success is due to the students' determination and hard work, learning basics with a tutor, then using classroom instruction to refine their skills.

Today's Globe and Mail front page reports 56% of 227 forest products industry employees in British Columbia had difficulty reading at a mid-grade 4 level. Two years ago, an Ontario study found 40% of all adults had below eighth-grade literacy. In London, 20% of the population is functionally illiterate.

The dedication of individuals like Mary Oliver, as well as the $10.5 million in funding for the 184 organizations that provide literacy programs and services for adults throughout Ontario, supports people learning to read and write.

LAND REGISTRATION

Mr McGuinty: A few hours ago I had the misfortune of sitting on the standing committee on government agencies. I describe it as a misfortune for the following reasons.

As members know, the committee was charged with the important task of determining the best way to deal with allegations that a solicitor representing the Minister of Consumer and Commercial Relations had made statements contemptuous of this House's authority, of the committee's authority and of the privilege enjoyed by each member of this House.

Two motions were put forward in committee today. The government's motion, which of course passed, recommends to the minister that she herself conduct an internal inquiry and take whatever action she deems appropriate. The opposition motion could not even be debated, as the government invoked closure after only one member of the committee had spoken.

The result is that this matter of vital importance to all of us here and to our traditions of parliamentary authority will be investigated by a minister whose own lawyer, who we must logically presume was acting in accordance with the minister's wishes, will now be conducting the inquiry. In effect, the minister will be the judge, the jury and the accused.

Our public and our traditions of fairness demand that this matter be reviewed by a committee of this House. The course that the government members of the committee have embarked the committee upon means that this government has no intention of dealing with this matter publicly and fairly. Government members have accused us of being on a witchhunt. We are on a hunt -- a hunt for the facts, and we will pursue those facts relentlessly, rigorously and unfailingly.

WASTE MANAGEMENT

Mr McLean: My statement is directed to the Premier. He is not here, but the Deputy Premier will hear it. It concerns the failure of several ministers to respond to urgent letters from elected officials in Simcoe county.

The warden of Simcoe county has indicated to me that over the past seven months she has written a total of six letters to several officials in the government, including the Minister of the Environment, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and the Minister of Revenue, requesting their consideration of a number of serious situations that have arisen as a result of the county of Simcoe's assumption of waste management responsibilities. To date, the warden has received only two acknowledgements of the six letters.

In the Premier's throne speech he said: "My government will open Queen's Park to those who have never before had an effective voice in the corridors of power. It is a government that will listen to the people and respond to the needs to the best of its ability." Apparently the ability of several of his ministers leaves much to be desired.

I suggest the lack of courtesy exhibited by the ministers in responding to the concerns of the warden of Simcoe county, to individuals in my riding of Simcoe East and even to correspondence from me is forcing the people of Ontario to operate in isolation, without the appropriate direction or guidance from the government. Last week I delivered two letters to two different ministers, the Minister of Labour and the Minister of Transportation, and they immediately got back to me with those.

I tell the Premier I think there is a problem within the ministries of the ministers not getting the letters, and I would ask him to look into it.

CANADIAN WOMEN'S ARMY CORPS

Mr Mills: It gives me a great deal of pleasure to stand in the House today and pay tribute to the Canadian Women's Army Corps as it celebrates its golden jubilee in 1991. I would also like to recognize the fact that the Minister of Government Services attended their 50th anniversary banquet recently.

The Canadian Women's Army Corps was formed on August 13, 1941, to perform services during the Second World War. During that war, 21,614 women, embracing 10 nationalities, answered the call for volunteers. Their commitment, by today's standards, was rather stiff. They made agreements not to marry for six months, to wear their hair above the collar, to abandon all finery and to work long hours and be subject to military discipline.

Time marches on, Mr Speaker, and no one is more aware of that than you and I. Today, most of the former members of the Canadian Women's Army Corps are grandmothers. I ask all members of the Legislature to join in paying a tribute to the members of the Canadian Women's Army Corps, who in the bloom of their life made a significant contribution to ensure the freedom we all enjoy today.

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION

Mr McClelland: When one assumes a new role as critic, it is remarkable what a fresh perspective can bring to old material. I thought it would be interesting, and I hope you will too, Mr Speaker, to review some of the Premier's correspondence from the election campaign of just over a year ago.

This particular letter is dated August 14, 1990, and is addressed to organizations such as Pollution Probe, Greenpeace and others.

These are all statements the NDP supported: "zero discharge of all toxic chemicals into the air and water by the year 2000; a ban on toxic organochlorine dumping by the pulp and paper industry by the year 1993; an immediate ban on municipal garbage incineration; enact the environmental bill of rights immediately; legislation requiring that all containers be refillable; tough packaging laws to eliminate excess packaging; no new nuclear reactors in Ontario, a plan for energy efficiency and a phase-out of existing reactors; an immediate ban on CFCs in flexible furniture foam and rigid insulation." There is an awful lot of use of the word "immediate."

Yes, all of these were statements that the then member for York South made in August 1990. The letter is signed by Bob Rae and ends with this statement: "I hope these commitments indicate to you that an NDP government would take firm, timely and decisive action to achieve the eight proposals you have put forward."

I simply remind the government that the public is watching, and we are still waiting.

HEALTH INSURANCE

Mr Jackson: I call to the attention of all members of the House yet another example of gross insensitivity towards Ontario's seniors by the NDP. The Ministry of Health has decided it will no longer cover the drug persantine as a non-formulary interim Ontario drug benefit after October 31 of this year. Persantine is a continuous-use drug on the market since the 1960s which normalizes platelet survival in patients with prosthetic heart valves and which was covered for many years as a safe and effective medication for angina and other related heart problems. In other words, it is a drug used by senior citizens.

The NDP decision to discontinue coverage of persantine was made without any consideration for the wellbeing of those seniors who will now have to bear great financial difficulty to obtain this drug, or who may even be forced to forgo the drug altogether.

The Minister of Health this week took over complete responsibility for long-term care in Ontario. That minister should be ashamed of her actions, which seriously compromise the health care of seniors. Where is the NDP minister responsible for senior citizens' affairs in all of this? Is that strangely silent seniors' minister even aware of what is going on here?

This is the second time this week I have stood in the House to speak on this government's socialist slight against seniors. We now know that NDP OHIP cutbacks will force seniors to buy expensive, unregulated private insurance. It would now seem that the Premier should just put out a sign on his front office door that says, "Seniors Are Not Welcome."

I call on the Minister of Health to reinstate coverage for persantine immediately. The NDP says it is listening. It is now time for the Premier to begin hearing what vulnerable Ontario seniors are telling him about their critical health care needs.

NON-PROFIT HOUSING

Mr Dadamo: As the member of the Ontario Legislature representing the riding of Windsor-Sandwich, I am pleased to inform members of this House that the Windsor Young Men's Christian Association residence has been given the go-ahead by my colleague the Minister of Housing to begin developing plans for the 50 non-profit housing units for singles as part of the Ontario non-profit housing program.

As well, the very dedicated community-based group is among the first to be selected to produce non-profit housing as part of the Ontario non-profit housing program announced in last spring's budget. The goal of this program is to produce 10,000 affordable housing units right across this province.

The non-profit housing sponsors will take out mortgage loans to pay the capital costs of the housing and the province will subsidize the annual operating costs. The housing will have tenants with a mix of incomes. Those with the lowest incomes will pay rents based on their incomes while those with higher incomes will pay rents based on comparable accommodation in the local private market.

Those eligible to apply for non-profit housing include families, senior citizens, single people and of course people with disabilities and refugee claimants. Once final plans have been approved by the ministry, construction will commence, enhancing our government's goal of economic renewal.

I would also like to extend my warmest congratulations to the executive at the Windsor YMCA for a job well done in securing these 50 non-profit housing units for singles, a welcome addition to my riding of Windsor-Sandwich as well as to the city of Windsor.

INVESTIGATION INTO RELEASE OF DOCUMENTS

The Speaker: On Tuesday of this week, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr Elston) rose on a question of privilege concerning a visit by police officers to his office in the Parliament Building. He was of the view that the visit was preventing him from carrying out his work and that it infringed the rights of the minorities in this House.

This matter is covered by paragraph 45(1)2 of the Legislative Assembly Act, which provides that the assembly may find that it is a breach of privilege or a contempt to obstruct, threaten or attempt to force or intimidate a member of the assembly.

Having had an opportunity to review Tuesday's Hansard and the relevant parliamentary authorities, I find that a situation whereby outside police authorities interview a member in his or her parliamentary office, in the case at hand, does not amount to intimidation or obstruction in the parliamentary sense of those words.

While the Leader of the Opposition has not established, in my opinion, a prima facie case of privilege, this does not end the matter. I am concerned about how this incident affects other areas of the law and custom of Parliament. Therefore, let me make some remarks and give some directions concerning the proper procedure that must be followed by police forces seeking to interview someone in the legislative precinct. In doing so, I am cognizant that there is no rule or precedent of this assembly on this specific point, and accordingly I have carefully canvassed the parliamentary authorities with respect to the practices and procedures in other jurisdictions.

Maingot's Parliamentary Privilege in Canada states the following at page 146:

"The exclusive privilege of the House to regulate proceedings within its own walls must be respected. 'It is well established that outside police forces on official business shall not enter the precincts of Parliament without first obtaining the permission of Mr Speaker.' To this limited extent, the law and custom of Parliament prevails over the general law. The Sergeant at Arms or a member of the protective service should accompany police officers while officially in the building in assertion of parliamentary authority and to prevent police 'fishing expeditions.'"

The second edition of Australia House of Representatives Practice states the following at page 164:

"Police may not enter Parliament House for the purpose of interrogating anyone or executing a warrant without the express consent of the Speaker or President. There are a number of precedents of such consent being granted in the case of police wishing to interview members. In commenting on one such incident, the Speaker stated:

"'To avoid any misunderstanding as to the powers of the police in this building, I draw to the attention of the House that it is accepted as part of the Parliament's privileges and immunities that the police do not have a right to enter the Parliament building without the prior knowledge and consent of the President and/or the Speaker. The police officers who visited the honourable member yesterday sought my permission to do so before coming to the building.'"

It is clear then that police forces cannot, as of right, interview an occupant of the legislative precinct; they have first to obtain the consent of the Speaker.

I might say to members that there has not been a ruling on this point by any previous Speaker of this assembly because there has never been a request to so so. Now that the procedure has been set out in this ruling, I want to caution interested persons that failure to comply with this procedure in the future may constitute a breach of privilege or a contempt.

PERSONS DAY

Hon Mrs Boyd: With the unanimous consent of the House, I would like to take a moment to recognize Persons Day.

The Speaker: Do we have unanimous consent?

Agreed to.

Hon Mrs Boyd: On October 18, 1929, 62 years ago tomorrow, a 12-year struggle to win equality before the law for Canada's women came to an end when England's Privy Council overturned our own Supreme Court and proclaimed that, yes, women were persons too. What the council was ruling on was whether Canada's five million women -- in 1929 almost half the population -- were to be included in the legal definition of this word and would therefore be eligible for appointment to the Senate.

This battle was waged by five indomitable personalities, Emily Murphy, Nellie McClung, Louise McKinney, Irene Parlby and Henrietta Muir Edwards, all dedicated advocates of women's rights. Their vision of the full implications of personhood for women persuaded them to take their case to the highest court in this land, and then on to the Privy Council in England.

It is important that we remember and honour the vision and staying power of Alberta's Famous Five, not only out of respect for our history, but out of respect for the constitutional process being undergone in Canada right now. As we stand at another turning point in Canada's affairs and our country works to resolve pivotal constitutional issues, it is important that women, aboriginal people and other marginalized minority people continue to make themselves heard in the constitutional process. The same qualities of vision, tenacity and clear and original thinking demonstrated in the personhood case are urgently needed today as this country seeks to constitutionally perfect itself.

I know this is no easy task, but the stakes are high and so will be the rewards. As we stand to celebrate Persons Day, we know we will all benefit by those who show the same spirit and determination that propelled Canada's women to personhood.

Ms Poole: The Liberal caucus is pleased to join the minister in celebrating the 62nd anniversary of Persons Day. I know it must be amazing to many members of this House that for almost the first third of this century, women were not recognized as persons under our Constitution and under our laws. As the minister mentioned, it took 12 years of concerted effort by the Famous Five, led by Nellie McClung, to win recognition from the British Privy Council that the concept of persons being limited to men was irrelevant.

Those of us who today enjoy all the advantages of personhood, including the right to serve in this Legislature, owe a great deal to those women who worked so hard for so long to advance the cause of women. As I mentioned, one of those Famous Five women who fought for us to be recognized as persons was Nellie McClung. I am sure members are familiar with the enormous contribution she made to the early women's movement in Canada.

I have a favourite story about Nellie McClung and how she fought for the right of women to vote in Canada. Members have to remember that at the turn of the century, the Dominion Elections Act stated, and I will quote: "No woman, idiot, lunatic or criminal shall vote." Nellie McClung did not think this was too fair, so she and an intrepid group of women in 1914 set out to challenge the Manitoba Legislature. She approached Premier Roblin and demanded that women be given the right to vote. The Premier of the day, Mr Roblin, dismissed their arguments by saying: "Now you forget about all this nonsense about women voting. Nice women don't want to vote."

Nellie McClung and her supporters decided that humour and laughter might be the best way to get action from the government, so the next night, at a theatre in Winnipeg, the women staged a mock Parliament in which all members were women and Nellie McClung was the Premier. However, their roles were reversed in this Parliament and it was the men who were asking for the right to vote. Mrs McClung simply used the same arguments that Premier Roblin had used, in reverse. She said: "If men are given the vote, they will vote too much. Politics unsettles men.

Unsettled men mean unsettled bills, broken furniture, broken vows and divorce. Men cannot be trusted with the ballot. Men's place is on the farm." Two years later Nellie McClung won the first right of women in Canada to have the vote, in Manitoba.

We owe a great debt to women like Nellie McClung and our early pioneers, who not only established that we are indeed persons, but also that we have the right to vote and fully participate.

While the "persons" decision was not a recognition at the time that men and women were equal, it was certainly a pivotal step in the women's movement. It was a breakthrough making way for the battles we still fight today for pay equity, child care, freedom of choice and the ability to live free from the threat of violence in our homes and communities.

Today as we celebrate that remarkable victory, that Privy Council decision that established what really should have been self-evident, that both men and women are indeed persons, let us show our gratitude to our pioneer women who led and blazed the way for the rest of us.

Mrs Marland: It is a privilege to rise on this occasion on behalf of our caucus. Tomorrow marks the 62nd anniversary of the "persons" case, that historic decision by the Privy Council of Great Britain which declared that women were in fact persons and were eligible under the Constitution Act, 1867, to become members of the Senate of Canada.

The Privy Council's decision overturned a unanimous decision of the Supreme Court of Canada in 1928 that women were not "persons who could hold public office as Canadian senators" because of the terms of the Constitution Act, 1867, and the historical incapacity of women to hold office under common law. In making its decision, the Privy Council called the exclusion of women from public office "a relic of days more barbarous than ours."

The decision on the "persons" case was the result of the efforts of five Alberta suffragettes: Henrietta Muir Edwards, Nellie McClung, Louise McKinney, Emily Murphy and Irene Parlby. Today is a fitting opportunity to pay tribute to these remarkable women and to the countless others who have worked to remove barriers to equality for Canadian women.

Certainly, as we look around us at the women in this chamber and in the Legislative chambers across our country, we see evidence of the progress women have made in politics. But we cannot congratulate ourselves yet. Women have not achieved equality in Canada, politically, economically or socially.

In this Legislature, for example, only 28 of 130 MPPs, or 21.5%, are female. In the House of Commons women make up just 39 of 295 MPs, or 13.2%. Women who have been elected often recall how difficult it was to obtain the financial support required to run for office, or how draining it is to juggle political and family life when in many cases they still carry a disproportionate share of the responsibility for raising children and running a household.

Canadian women still make, on average, just two thirds the salaries of their male counterparts. More than 1.5 million Canadian women live in poverty. Most disturbing is the link between poverty and motherhood: 75% of never-married single mothers raise their children in poverty.

All women, no matter what their economic status, live with the spectre of violence. One woman in four will experience sexual assault in her lifetime. Vulnerable women, such as the frail elderly and those with disabilities, are especially in need of protection from violence. I was horrified to learn that a recent study by the Toronto-based Disabled Women's Network shows that 73% of the disabled women surveyed have been victims of violence, while 96% of these victims have experienced sexual assault.

Until women no longer live in fear of attack, until women are not subjected to sexual harassment, until women's salaries equal those earned by men, until single mothers receive the community and financial support they need to conquer poverty, until women can count on men to share the responsibilities for raising children and housework, until all this and much more, we cannot celebrate equality. But we can celebrate the gains we have made since the "persons" case. We can celebrate the fact that today our daughters can become politicians or, if they prefer, scientists, judges, welders or doctors.

Tomorrow morning, LEAF-Toronto will hold its fourth annual Persons Day breakfast. LEAF, which stands for the Women's Legal Education and Action Fund, is a national non-profit organization which litigates precedent-setting equality cases and provides public education on issues of gender, equality and justice. I want to congratulate the members of LEAF for their vital work towards achieving equality for women.

While it is impossible to name the many persons and organizations which have followed in the steps of Henrietta Muir Edwards and her companion suffragettes, we thank them all. While government can and must be a leader in achieving equality for women, it is the work of private citizens like the suffragettes or the members of LEAF which can change public attitudes so that Persons Day becomes an occasion of celebration without qualification.

INVESTIGATION INTO RELEASE OF DOCUMENTS

Mr Bradley: On a point of privilege, Mr Speaker: I have had an opportunity to reflect briefly on your statement which affects the parliamentary precinct as it relates to the use of the police by the government against members of the opposition.

While I appreciate the fact that you have, through your statement, it appears, extended your authority and perhaps the authority of the Clerk in order to be notified of the police coming on to the parliamentary precinct, the concern that members of the opposition have quite obviously is not only the parliamentary precinct itself, but that the police would be coming to the homes of members of the opposition or to other offices outside the parliamentary precinct whenever the government deems it appropriate because some information has escaped from the government.

We have had two examples, at the very least, of members of this House -- the member for Halton Centre and the leader of the official opposition -- who have had visits from the police.

I suggest to you, Mr Speaker, that while it is both technically and in your interest a matter of interest that they are having those visits within the parliamentary precinct, our concern is that every time there is an opportunity to open up information, to have open government, to see democracy flourishing at its best, members of the government will send the police in to investigate members of the opposition or members of the news media or anyone else who happens to come into possession of information that is interesting to the public and that certainly the public has a right to know.

That is the concern that we in the opposition have.

The Speaker: I appreciate the matter that the member for St Catharines has brought to my attention. I am pleased to review the matter once again. I do not believe the authority of the Speaker extends beyond the precinct and the building and the grounds. None the less, I am certainly pleased to review all of the circumstances one more time.

Mr Stockwell: I too would like to raise concerns about that very same issue. I am very disturbed by the actions the government has taken on this and in past practices in connection with the police and the use of the police against opposition parties. I would suggest that if the government today were in opposition and this had taken place, the reaction would have been very strong and very concise.

I am opposed. I think it is clearly harassment and intimidation, no less than harassment and intimidation, by a government that has prided itself in the past on full and open public disclosure. I find it shocking that a socialist government such as the one we have today would even consider sending the police into the opposition parties' offices for a spin document. That is what has been suggested, a spin document.

I have very grave concerns, if it were really a d