Manitoba Hansard — 25 August 1969 (Sitting 8, 29th Legislature, 1st Session)

29-1-8

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Speaker The Honourable Ben Hanuschak Vol. XVI No. 8 2:30p.m., Monday, August 25th, 1969. First Session, 29th Legislature. Printed by R. S. Evans - Queen's Printer for Province of Manitoba

ELECTORAL DIVISION ARTHUR ASSINIBOIA BIRTLE-RUSSELL BRANDON EAST BRANDON WEST BURROWS CHARLESWOOD CHURCHILL CRESCENTWOOD DAUPHIN ELMWOOD EMERSON FLIN FLON FORT GARRY FORT ROUGE GIMLI GLADSTONE INKSTER KILDONAN LAC DU BONNET LAKES IDE LA VERENDRYE LOGAN MINNEDOSA MORRIS OSBORNE PEMBINA POINT DOUGLAS PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE RADISSON RHINELAND RI EL RIVER HEIGHTS ROBLIN ROCK LAKE ROSSMERE RUPERTSLAND ST. BONIFACE ST. GEORGE ST.JAMES ST.JOHNS ST. MATTHEWS ST. VITAL STE.

ROSE SELKIRK SEVEN OAKS SOURIS-KILLARNEY SPRINGFIELD STURGEON CREEK SWAN RIVER THE PAS THOMPSON TRANSCONA VIR DEN WELLINGTON WINNIPEG CENTRE WOLSELEY NAME J. Douglas Watt Steve Patrick Harry E. Graham Hon. Leonard S. Evans Edward McGill Hon. Ben Hanuschak Arthur Moug Gordon Wilbert Beard Cy Gonick Hon. Peter Burtniak Russell J. Doern Gabriel Girard Thomas Barrow Bud Sherman Mrs. lnez Trueman John C. Gottfried James Robert Ferguson Hon. Sidney Green Peter Fox Hon. Sam Uskiw Harry J. Enns Leonard A. Barkman William Jenkins Waiter Weir Warner H. Jorgenson lan Turnbull George Henderson Donald Malinowski Gordon E.

Johnston Harry Shafransky Jacob M. Froese Donald W. Craik Sidney Spivak, Q.C. J. Wally McKenzie Henry J. Einarson Hon. Ed. Schreyer Jean Allard Laurent L. Desjardins Bill Uruski Hon. Al. Mackling Hon. Saul Cherniack, Q.C. Wally Johannson Jack Hardy Gildas Molgat Hon. Howard Pawley Hon. Saul A. Miller Earl McKellar Hon. Rene E. Toupin Frank Johnston James H. Bilton Ron McBryde Hon. Joseph P. Borowski Hon. Russell Paulley Morris McGregor Hon. Philip Petursson Bud Boyce Leonard H.

Claydon ADDRESS Reston, Manitoba 10 Red Robin Place, Winnipeg 12 Binscarth, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 2228 Princess St., Brandon, Man. 11 Aster Ave., Winnipeg 17 29 Willow Ridge Rd., Winnipeg 20 103 Copper Rd., Thompson, Man. 115 Kingsway, Winnipeg 9 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 104 Roberta Ave., Winnipeg 15 25 Lomond Blvd., St. Boniface 6 Cranberry Portage, Manitoba 86 Niagara St., Winnipeg 9 179 Oxford St., Winnipeg 9 44- 3rd Ave., Gimli, Man.

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Boniface 6 Box 629, Arborg, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 471 Home St., Winnipeg 10 11 Glenlawn Ave., Winnipeg 8 463 Kingston Crescent, Winnipeg 8 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Nesbitt, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 310 Overdale St., Winnipeg 12 Swan River, Manitoba 56 Paul Ave., The Pas, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 Kenton, Manitoba Legislative Bldg., Winnipeg 1 777 Winnipeg Ave., Winnipeg 3 116Y:. Sherbrook St., Winnipeg 1

THE LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, August 25, 1969 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. PRESENTING PETITIONS 123 MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the petition of Harko Bhagat et al, praying for the passing of

an Act to incorporate the Brandon University Students Union. MR. SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions; Pres enting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: At this point I wish to direct the attention of the honourable members to the Speaker's gallery wherein this afternoon we have the Princess ofApasquia IndianDaysand her five attendants under the direction of Mrs . Jebb. They are here from the constituency of the Honourable Member for The Pas. We welcome you here this afternoon. Orders of the Day.

The Honourable the Leader of the Official Opposition. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. WALTER WEIR (L eader of the Opposition) (Minnedosa): Mr . Speaker, might I enquire of the Minister of Transportationifhe intends , or if the government intends to have legislation brought in which would prohibit deferred elections in northern Manitoba at this Ses sion ? HON. JOSEPH P. BOROWSKI (Minister of Transportation) (Thompson): No, Mr. Speaker, because we don't expect an election before the next Session. MR. WEIR: Mr. Speaker, might I ask a question of the Minister of Finance?

Can we expect legislation concerning an estate tax rebate at this Session? HON. SAUL CHERNIACK, Q, C. (Minister of Finance) (St. John's): I assure the honourable minister that as soon as the information is available for him he will be informed. While Pm on my feet, Mr. Speaker - or was on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I may be permitted to ask of the members of the House whether it would be acceptable to them if I informally distribute the estimates, which would not of course be debated or dealt with until after the conclusion of the debate on the Speech from the Throne.

I previously announced that the estimates are in the same form as the previous government had submitted them . I thought it would be advisable if we could distribute them informally without actually filing them in the House until after the debate, but I thought there are many new members and that they might like to have an opportunity to see them, so that I would wonder if there's any objection amongst members if I have them distributed. That's the estimates of expenditures. MR. WEIR: Mr.

Speaker, on the suggestion that has been made by the Minister of Finance, am I to understand that there isn't going to be any changes in terms of es timates at this Session? I would hope if we• re getting estimates, we'd get them all at the same time even if they were contained in two pieces of paper. MR. CHERNIACK: It is not my intention to give them both at the same time. I propose to file with the House the estimates as they had been presented by the former government, and in due course I intend to bring in supplementary estimates. MR. WEIR: Mr.

Speaker, would the other es timates be pres ented before we entered into the debate on the old est imates ? his . . MR. CHERNIACK: No, Mr. Speaker. MR. GORDON E. JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): That proposal is agreeable to us. MR. CHE RNIACK: I wonder if the Leader of the Opposition would care to indicate MR. WEIR: We have no objection really to the distribution of the estimates, but we'll certainly be having some thing to say about having a look at all of the estimates at the same time. MR. CHE RNIACK: I have every reason to expect the honourable opposition to have a great deal to say. MR.

WEIR: My honourable friend won't be disappointed.

124 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister then has leave ? MR. CHE RNIACK: Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. August 25, 1969 MR. GORDON W, BEARD (Churchill): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Honourable Minister of Transportation would have a statement in regards to the proposed takeover of TransAir by a company located in Toronto? MR . BOROWSKI: Mr . Speaker, as I indicated- last Thursday was it? - that we are concerned about what's happening and we are looking into the matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SIDNEY SPIVAK, Q.

C. (River Heights): I'd like to address a question, Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable Minister of Transportation. Can he inform the House whether he personally has had any discussi on with the officials of TransAir or the corporation that is propos ing to buy the controlling interest in TransAir in connection with their proposal, and in connec tion with the r:ccent statements that he's made outside of this House. MR . BOROWSKI: Could you state that question again? I'm not sure just what you're getting at. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I assume by leave I can state it again.

Would he inform the House whether he personally has had any contact with the officials of TransAir or those who are proposing to buy control of TransAir, and who have been indicated in the newspaper as purchasing control, in connection with the statement that he made in connection with this purchase outside of this House? HON. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, may I suggest that the Honourable Minister of. Transportation has already answered that in effect by saying that he will be making a statement before long on the aspects. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, with all due respect to the Honourable House Leader, one has nothing to do with the other. I've asked a specific question. I would like to know the answer. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, agaill I remind my honourable friend that the Minister of Transportation has indicated he will be making a statement to the House on all aspects of it, which will include the question of my honourable friend. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. LEONARD A. BARKMAN (La Verendrye): Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day are proceeded with, since the Minister of Municipal Affairs was not present the other day, I asked a question about municipal debentures not being sold or municipalities holding unsold debentures valued at possibly more than $8 million by now. Is anything being done to relieve this situation? HON, HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Minister of Municipal Affairs) (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Member for La Verendrye is quite correct.

As of August 7th, 1969 debentures in the amount of $8, 851, 809. 00 were outstanding, the largest share of this being debentures not sold in respect to the cities and suburban areas in Manitoba totalling $4. 7 million. This appears to be a growing problem all across Canada and all the provincial governments are witnessing similar difficulties in respect to their municipalities being able to dispose of municipal debentures on today's money market. All that I can state at this time, Mr.

Speaker, that due to this problem and due to the fact that it appears to be one which is common all across the country, that this government is taking a very close look at the situation and I would hope the member would persevere, and if the problem continues that we shall in due course come up with a policy that will be satisfact ory to all concerned. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. Has the honourable member a supplementary question ? MR. BARKMAN: Does that mean, Mr .

Speaker, that the government is considering, if no relief is found soon, that they're prepared to take measures that would help finance muni cipalities with unfinished projects ? MR. PAWLEY: We are unable to undertake any specific measure at this time, Mr. Speaker. And again all that I can state is that we are examining this situation and we will, if the problem continues, develop a policy. I'm unable to specify the nature of that policy at this point. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel.

August 25, 1969 MR. DONALD W. CRAIK (Riel): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the House Leader. Can he advise the House when the terms of reference that were given to Mr. Cass-Beg�s regarding South Indian Lake will be tabled in the House as indicated by the First Minister? 125 MR. PAULLEY: Just as soon as we've had an opportunity of looking at them, they will be presented to the House as promised by the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MRS. INEZ TRUEMAN (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs regarding a newspaper

article which seems to indicate that the government intends to bring in its own bill concerning a tax incentive for Winnipeg. Now is this so or is it to be contained in the amendments to the City of Winnipeg Charter as had previously been planned? MR. PAWLEY: The honourable member will have to wait for any introduction of policy in due course in respect to that. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources.

High water is again causing considerable con cern in the Lake Winnipeg area to both farm and other private property owners. Has the Water Control Branch undertaken any emergency measures to help in this situation, as has been the case in previous years? HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, this question is under constant review. I would be pleased, however, to look into the matter further and perhaps expand on my remarks today. MR. ENNS: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Just a simple question.

Have direct proposals of aid, particularly diking aid, been made to the Minister's office in recent days or weeks ? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, not that I'm aware of. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Speaker, I wish to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Youth and Education. In view of the fact that the budget ending March 31st, 1970 calls for a surplus of $619, 000 -- $619, 372, has the government reconsidered its decision not to interfere with the increase in university tuition amounting to $750, 000 per year? HON. SAUL A.

MILLER (Minister of Youth and Education) (Seven Oaks): Mr. Speaker, the figures mentioned by the Member for Assiniboia of 600 and something thousand dollars of surplus, I'm not quite sure whether they're correct or not. I really don't know. But in reply to the question whether the government is at this stage doing anything with regard to the increase in tuition fees, the answer I answered the other day, the government at this time is not contemplating any immediate change. MR. PATRICK: Mr. Speaker, a subsequent question.

Will the government undertake to consider applying at least a portion of its budgetary surplus to minimize the increase? MR. MILLER: Well, we'll have to wattand see about that. I can•t answer at this time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address my question to the Honourable the Minister of Finance. This has to do with an answer to the question that I asked in the House that was given on Wednesday of last week. I was not present and it's contained on Hansard on Page 55.

This has to do with the bank overdraft of the government and there was a similar question asked concerning the Manitoba Hydro and concerning the Manitoba Telephone System a few days later. As I understand it, the Honourable Minister has indicated that he is not prepared ... MR. SPEAKER: Has the honourable member a question? MR. SPIVAK: Yes, I have to be clear of the language that was used. I can read the language and ask the question, or I can frame it in the terminology I'm going to. It's simply a matter of discretion. My purpose is really to elicit information from the Honourable Minister.

I simply want to know why there is a restriction put on members of this House in the manner in which he's answered. Why is it necessary to be secretive, and why is it neces sary for this information to be given outside the House rather than inside the House directly to all the members so that it can in fact.be used properly in the debate as we discuss the

126 August 25, 1969 (MR. SPIVAK cont•d. ) . . . . . question of money and of the public purse. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, might I ask the honourable member if he's raising a question of privilege ? MR. SPEAKER: I do not believe it's a proper question before the Orders of the Day, questioning an honourable minister's activities outside the House. MR. SPIVAK: Well, Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, if I may I will read the Hansard and the remarks of the Honourable Minister in which he indicated that the information would be given outside of this House. That's what he said.

I'm asking why a restriction that information should be given outside of this House and not inside of this House? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, as far as I'm aware, members of the opposition who had the opportunity to ask the same question over many years have not asked this question in the past, and if it is a matter that is for debate, I ce rtainly did not indicate that any informa tion given to them would have to be kept secret by them. And it's ce rtainly not being kept secret.

I pointed out, as I have a right to do, that I feel that this is of no assistance to the management of the province to make this kind of discussion. I was prepared, and I still am, prepared to give the information as had been the practice in the past long before the honour able member became a member of this House, and I am quite prepared to continue that and to make good that undertaking. If my honourable friend wishes to debate the question there are other occasi ons when to do so. MR. SPEAKER: The Honouralie Member for Rhineland. MR. JACO B M, FROESE (Rhineland): Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the House Lead er. Who determines the amount of indemnity that will be paid to the members for this particular Session ? And a second question: who determines whether this be a regular or a special Session? MR. PAULLEY: .. . will make that decision in due course. MR. FROESE: A supplementary question then. How come that newspapers carried an

article some time ago as to the amount of the indemnity that would be paid to members . . . MR. SPEAKER: I would remind the honourable member that the honourable ministers cannot be held acco untable for actions of newspapers. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. Is there any substance to a report that the government is going to grant Hydro a licence to install the high level dam with respect to South Indian Lake ? MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, as I believe has been announced in the press many a time by the Premier and by the members of his Cabinet including myself, the matter is under con sideration and when the decision is made it will be announced at that time. MR. G. JOHNSTON: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Will that answer be coming during the current Session ? As you know, Hydro are anxious to know where they stand. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, we hope the answer will be coming as soon as is humanly pos sible. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR.

SPIVAK: In the absenc e of the First Minister, I'd like to direct my question to the House Leader. Mr. Speaker, I would like to know was there any particular reason why the native leaders were not invited on the "Operation Manitoba" tour to Gillam and to Churchill ? MR. PAULLEY: I didn•t quite catch the question of my honourable friend. MR. SPIVAK: I wondered, Mr. Speaker, whether the Honourable House Leader can inform the House was there any particular reason why the native leaders were not invited to jo in the business community and the MLAs on the trip north on "Operation Manitoba ?" MR.

PAULLEY: No reason at all, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPIVAK: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, I did not hear that. MR. PAULLEY: No reasons why anybody was not invited. The Honourable the former Minister was and I unde rstand he didn't attend. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. G, JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the House Leader. My honour able friend the Member for Wel lington I unde rstand was the "Minister without Portfolio" in his appointment.

I noticed on the notice boards coming into the building he is designated as the "Minister of Cultural Affairs." Is it the government's intention to legalize the creation of

August 25, 1969 127 (MR. G. JOHNSTON cont•d.) . . . . . this department with a staff and a deputy minister? MR. PAULLEY: There has been consideration, Mr. Speaker, for reorganization of cabinet portfolios for a matter of convenience, and the Minister without Portfolio is also desig nated Minister of Cultural Affairs in Manitoba Centennial Corporation in order that people can address certain questions to that particular gentleman. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the House Leader.

I wonder if he can inform the House whether the Standing Committee on Economic Development proposed in the TED Report will be formed this Session and will sit this Session? MR. PAULLEY: This is a matter of policy, Mr. Speaker, that will be announced in due course. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. LEONARD H. CLAYDON (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I direct my enquiry to the Minister of Transport.

Last week he informed us that in the curtailment of the service of the Great Northern Railway that the re-scheduling was on the American side and he thought it would be unnecessary to make further representations. As I understand it .. . MR. PAULLEY: What is the question? MR. CLAYDON: I'll ask the question if you'll give me a chance. As I understand it, there is serious curtailment of service affecting of the people of Manitoba . . . MR. SPEAKER: Has the honourable member a question? MR. C LA YDON: Is the Minister making further representations on behalf of the people of Manitoba? MR. BOROWSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I believe if he'll read Hansard, which he has in his hand, I said the curtailment was on the American side. It is. The re-scheduling is on the Canadian side, therefore it was unnecessary to make any representation. I stand by that statement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR . SPIVAK: Well, I'd like to ask the Honourable Minister of Transport a supple mentary question. Are you suggesting that the service that now will be offered will be similar in kind to the present service that is operating between Winnipeg and Minneapolis-St. Paul? MR. BOROWSKI: Mr.

Speaker, it is my understanding, from speaking to the gentle man in charge of this railway, that this is a case of simply re-scheduled to a different hour. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley. MR. CLAYDON: A question to the Minister of Transport. Are you saying that the service in a reverse direction to Winnipeg will not be altered as well? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. GILDAS MOLGAT (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

Can the Minister indicate whether a cost-sharing agreement has been negotiated withe the Federal Government to provide water and sewage to the residential areas of Churchill. The Minister will recall, or will know that the Federal Government had a "no strings attached" grant for the commercial section. My question now is for the residential area. MR. PAWLEY: I'll have to take that question as notice and give an answer in due course. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources.

Today in Ottawa they unveiled the long-awaited Water Act, and the question is, has the Department, and particularly Water Control, looked at the implications to Manitoba in terms of particularly not what has been catching the headlines, that is pollution problems, but the possible changes in the arrangements of PFRA. It is my understanding that with the Water Act the Federal Government will overhaul its whole water legislation, and while we are of course concerned with pollution, we are more concerned here in the prairie provinces . . . MR . SPEAKER: I believe the honourable member has concluded his question. MR.

ENNS: My question is: Are there any implications to any significant changes to the PFRA arrangements that we have with this government and the F•ederal Government? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I have only received a copy of th'e Federal Government's announcement a very very short while ago and I haven't had an opportunity of studying it. I have formed some opinions on the proposal. It has some implications for us - I think the

128 August 25, 1969 (MR. EVANS cont•d.) . . . . . intent of the general proposal is very good. Specifically the impact of the PFRA, as :he honourable member has asked, I haven't yet had an opportunity to form an opinion on this nor have I had an opportunity to discuss it with officials in the depart ment. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Youth and Education, and I'd like to ask him whether he has yet reviewed the brief of the Manitoba Association of School Trustees from July, 1969, and whether or not he concurs with the brief which recommends a bargaining

schedule between school trustees and teachers? MR. MILLER: Isn't it the brief of July, 1968 that you're referring to, Sir? MR. CRAIK: 1969, Mr. Speaker. MR. MILLER : I think it simply reiterates what was in the brief from 1968. There are a number of points in there. Some of them are very interesting and the government is looking at them. MR. CRAIK: I refer to the brief of 1969, Mr. Speaker, which was presented by them a month ago. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Honourable Attorney-General a question before the Orders of the Day.

I wonder if he could indicate whether any solicitors outside of those who are within the Civil Service have been used to help and assist in the drafting or amending of any of the Bills that have come forward or will come forward this session? HON. AL. MACKLING (Attorney-General) (St. James): I don't recall any, but if you'd like to put in an Order for Return I'll try and give you that information, but I have no recollec tion of any specific solicitors although I know a great many have assisted the governments in the past. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, really in the form of a supplementary question, and probably a ruling, I'm quite prepared to file an Order for Return. All I'm asking is a simple answer to a question. It's either yes or it's no. MR. SPEAKER: The answer was given. The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Youth and Education.

Does the Minister at this session of the Legislature intend to bring in any legislation regard ing further legislation in the field of education that may affect for the year 1970, the school year 1970, the cost control legislation regarding the public schools or other phases of educa tion or legislation regarding the relationship between the trustees and their employees? MR . MILLER: Mr. Speaker, I think I have answered that question once before in this House but I'll answer it again for the honourable gentleman. The answer is "no". MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J.

DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources who is in charge of water conservation and control in the province. I believe this morning he met with a delegation from my constituency to discuss water control out in the Oak Lake, Plum Lake and Plum Creek areas. Would the Honourable Minister indicate to the House just what his intentions will be in that area? MR. EVANS: Well, first of all I suppose I could put it off by saying it is a matter for policy decision.

I would like to say, however, for the edification of the honourable members, that we had a very informative and very productive meeting and we hope that we have resolved the conflict of interest among the residents within your constituency. As you know, there are varying points of view as to exactly what should be done in that area. There are wildlife interests and of course there are farming interests, to name two. We think we're on the way to a resolution of this conflict and we hope, we• re hoping very much that we can make some progress in the not too distant future. MR .

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, a subsequent question. MR. WATT: I might say to the honourable member that there is no question as far as I'm concerned what the procedure should be. What is the opinion of the Honourable the Minister? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Honourable Minister

August 25, 1969 129 (MR. SPIV AK cont•d.) . . . . . of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. A few wee ks ago in Quebec the Pariseau Report -and my pronunciation may be wrong - was filed in connection with secur ity legislation and one of the proposals was that the government would urge negotiations with other governments in connection with an inter-provincial secu rity commission. My question, Mr. Speaker is : Has there been any discussion between this department in Manitoba and their department in connection with their recommendation? HON. RENE E.

TOUPIN (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs) (Springfield): No there hasn't as yet, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Member for St. Boniface . MR . LAURENT L, DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask a ques tion of the House Lead er. Are you contemplating bringing in any legislation to limit all the member s, including the Member from River Heights, to no more than 50 ques tions a day? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address a ques tion to the House Leader.

Will copies of the ·Premier's speech that he made to the Chamber of Commerce in Churchill be made available to members of this House? MR. PAULLE Y: I'm sorry that I cannot answer the ques tion precisely for my honour able friend, but I can assure him if he is interested in reading a copy of that very fine speech that my leade r gave at Churchill, I would unde rtake to see that he gets a copy and anyone else that's interest ed in the same, as I'm sure the former Minister of Industry and Commerce may take a leaf from MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights . MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to ask a quest ion of the House Lead er. Last week I asked the First Minister -and he•s absent today and that•s why I'm addr essi ng it to you, Sir -whether the Air Canada Overhaul Base Committee would be brought into se ss ion to review the finalization of negotiations of Northwest Industries and the Air Canada Overhaul Base takeover. He is not pres ent today; he did not answer it.

There is reason to believe that this meeting should take place, and without getting involved in that, may I ask you to undertake to find out whether this will be convened this week or not. MR. PAULLEY: I will undertake to take the matter under consideration for my Leader, and may I take this opportunity of sugges ting to the Member for River Heights that these are matters that we will be dealing with without any cajoling from him. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: It has been drawn to my attention that we also have with us 80 members of the Joliet te Quebec Choir under the direction of Mr.

Penner from the constitu ency of the Honourable Member for La Verendrye . We welcome you to this Chamber this afternoon and wish you well. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to address a ques tion to the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs . Can he indicate whether there has been repres entation made from the Provincial Government to the Federal Government in order to help the City of Winnipeg wipe out the Pan-American deficit? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, there has been none to my knowledge. MR.

SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a question directed to the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. Can he inform the House of any further developments of the Falconbridge group at Wabowden? -- Interjection) -- I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker, that is the new development known as W-50, near Wabowden of the Falconbridge mining interest s .

There's some rather interesting developments going on the re and we•re -- Interjecti on) -- Yes, I'd like to . lt' ll take a little while but I'm just wondering -- we're hopefully on the edge of an important mining discovery, as I'm sure the members of the North know, and I'm sure the House would be happy to hear about it as soon as anybody else. MR. PAULLEY: . . . of my honourable friends opposite, I think the questions today are questions that are not proper on Orders of the Day.

My honourable friend the Member for Lakeside knows that the Minister of Financ e tabled their estimates; that the Throne Speech debate is nearing its termination. We will be going into es timates and many of the ques tions

130 August 25, 1969 (MR. PAULLEY cont1d.) . . . . . that are asked today would be properly considered when we're in committee to consider of the estimates. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I'd like to address a ques tion to the Minister of Transport. This is in connection with TransAir but not the same item that was discussed before.

Can he inform the House whether any representations have been made by the Provincial Government to the National Transportation Board or to the Federal Government in connection with the announcement by the Federal Minister of Transport that they would look on favour with TransAir's application from Winnipeg to Toronto, or ... from Winnipeg to Toronto? MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, the answer is "no". MR. SPIVAK: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Why not? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR . G. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Honourable the Minister of Transport.

Is his reduction in highway construction in the south, does this include dust con trol on the roads that are gravelled? MR . BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Could you repeat the question? MR. G. JOHNSTON: Well, I'm referring in particular to Provincial Road No. 240 and 227 where there has been dust control in the past and there appears to be none this year. Does the Minister's new order reducing highway construction in the south, does this include dust control as well? MR. BOROWSKI: Mr.

Speaker, if there has been any curtailment of what he mentions, I can assure him it wasn't done by me; it must have been done by the previous administration because I certainly never rescinded any such order. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Leader have a subsequent question? MR. JOHNSTON: In fairness, Mr. Speaker, the dust has arrived since June 25th. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Honourable House Leader a question.

I wonder if he can inform the House whether the Task Force in the North that was discussed and referred to by the First Minister will include a Task Force made up of all members of this House - representing all parties? MR. PAULLEY: The composition of that Task Force will be announced in due course. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR . MOLGAT: We have a question for the Minister of Transportation. I wonder if he's in a position to tell the House now what portions of the Mauro Report on Northern Trans portation he intends to propose. MR . BOROWSKI: Mr.

Speaker, when do you recommend that I propose-- would you make yourself clear? I'm not sure what you mean. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I'm referring to the Mauro Report on Northern Trans portation which the Minister has tabled in the House and which I understand he has had for some time prior to the tabling. My question is: Is he in a position now to advise the House which portions of the report he intends to implement and what the priorities might be? MR. BOROWSKI: Mr.

Speaker, as I've indicated before, money has been spent by the previous administration for the next fi :cal year and it's impossible for me to implement any portion of it, as much as I'd like to. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Well, I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable Minister of Transportation. I wonder if he could tell us whether the Mauro Report that was tabled in the House last week, at least copies of it have been sent to the Federal Government, the National Harbours Board, The.

Hudson Bay Route Association, and the various municipal and federal officials who are involved in Churchill and in the northern community areas? MR . BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, Mr. Mauro presented nine copies to us and we tabled I believe seven of them. One was left for the Premier and a couple were given to the press so it was impossible to do what the member suggests. However, we have asked for a printing and when the printing is in, maybe two or three weeks, copies will be sent to where we think they should be sent, and if there's any requests, of course we'll fill those requests. MR.

SPIVAK: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. Will you undertake to the

August 25, 1969 131 (MR. SPIVAK cont•d. ) . . . . . House to tell us when you do forward it and to whom you forwarded them? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Leader of the Official Opposition. MR. WEIR: Mr. Speaker, may I first of all acknowledge the enthusiasm of members opposite. I appreciate their interest. I'm assuming from the answer earlier of the Minister of Transportation that he would say now that the commitments in terms of road construction of this last year's program are not being changed. MR . BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, I didn't catch the question. MR. WEIR: Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Transportation said that the previous ad ministration had spent all of the money for this fiscal year. The fact of the matter is all of the projects aren't under construction, and I'm assuming by that that he means that the construction program as it was presented are being carried out. MR. PAULLEY: May I suggest to my honourable friend that he can presume whatever he likes, but as far as the answer of the Minister of Transport to the members opposite of this House, it will be revealed. MR. WEIR: Mr. Speaker, my question was to the Minister of Transport. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I'll answer the question. I think the Leader of the Op position has a right to ask the questions since he had something to do with maybe spending some of this money in his own constituency. It's true that all of it hasn't been spent. There's been no changes. However, because of wet weather last year and this year, the project as announced by the Minister didn't go through because it couldn't, so as a result there may be several million dollars left over or unspent due to wet conditions and some of this money that isn't spent will be spent elsewhere - some of it in the south, some of it in the north. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, I have a question to the Honourable Minister of Mines and Natural Resources. I wonder if he can inform the House whether instructions have gone out for a comparative study of incentives offered in other provinces and other countries in connection with the mining industry. MR, EVAN S: The answer is "n o". ORDERS OF THE DAY- MOTIONS FOR PAPERS MR. SPEAKER: Address for Papers. The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if this matter could stand. MR.

SPEAKER: Does the member have leave? (Agreed. ) Address for Papers. The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR . SPIV AK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if by leave I could hav'e this matter stand, please. MR. SPEAKER: (Agreed. ) Order for Return. The Honourable House Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. G. JOHNSTON: I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for La Verendrye, that an Order of the House do issue for a return showing:

(1) The names of lawyers who have acted for the Manitoba Development Fund since its inception and the amount of legal fees paid to each.

(2) A breakdown of the amount paid to each and the date of each such payment.

(3) The amount of MDF loan involved in each case. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, may I suggest to my honourable friend the House Leader of the Liberal Party that this be raised on Private Members' Day? It may be a question of debate, MR. SPEAKER: I didn't quite get the intent of the House Leader. MR. PAULLEY: Under the rules of the House, if there is going to be a debate it reverts to Private Members' Day, and that is my request. MR. JOHNSTON: I have no intention to debate the motion, Mr. Speaker. That•s why I read it at this time . MR.

PAULLEY: Well there will be a debate on it and I am indicating that to my honour able friend, and that's strictly within the rules of the House. MR . G. JOHNSTON: I'm agreeable to presenting it on Private Members• Day if that is your wish. MR. PAULLEY: I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Services, that the debate be adjourned.

132 August 25, 1969 MR, SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. GOVERNMENT BILLS MR. SPEAKER: The adjourned debates on second readings. Proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. BUD SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I waive the right to speak at this time in favour of the Leader of the Opposition for whom I adjourned the debate. MR. WEIR: Mr. Speaker, I just have a word or two to say, in that we have no objection to the Bill proceeding at this stage of the game and will support it at this time.

I haven't had an opportunity to examine it in the detail that I would have liked and there may be some questions of detail in committee that we would like to ask, but we intend to support it at this stage, MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I defer to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition for whom I adjourned the debate. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. WEIR: Mr.

Speaker, my remarks on the last Bill are the same. We propose to support the Bill at this stage. There may be some question of detail that we will want an ex planation on at committee but we are prepared to support it at this stage. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK: I'll be closing debate, Mr. Speaker.

Pin most intrigued to hear what the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition will have to say about this Bill when it is dealt with at Committee level since I have already assured the House that it is word for word the same Bill as was presented by the former Minister of Finance. Nevertheless, I do want to answer some of the questions that were raised by the Honourable Member from Ste. Rose who asked some questions about the Bill. I just want to deal with this.

He enquired as to previous government's commitments to International Airlines, and I am informed that the previous government did in fact make a definite commitment to rebate aviation fuel tax to International carriers.

I gather that letters were exchanged, and I am pre pared to read excerpts from the letters but I don't know that it's necessary, except to indicate that the former Minister of Finance had stated that the province is considering the refund of gasoline tax and requested that invoices be kept supporting purchases made by the companies so that they could be submitted in support of any possible refun d claims that will have been made.

The representative of one of the airlines stated that - again an excerpt- "The abolish ment of this fuel tax will once again make Winnipeg competitive with other airports and allow us to discontinue our evaluating the possible use of alternative facilities." A letter was then sent by the department to some 22 airlines advising them of the procedure to be followed in order to obtain a refund of gasoline tax paid on aviation fuel and this was followed up by a news paper

article which appeared in the Winnipeg Free Press on January 14th, 1969. The estimate made by the department is that the possible loss of gasoline tax would approximate $30, 000. So far the government has received two claims totalling $1,499. 14 from the total. The total is from two companies, but there is some indication apparently that some airlines are holding back their claims in anticipation of pending legislation. I understand that the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Coimcilmayremitor rebate taxation under

Section 50 of the Treasury Act, and apparently that was the proposal and would be the proposal of any sales that have been made from the date of the commitment having been given and the date that this Bill will be passed.

It's pointed out that, according to the Pan American Airlines, in 1967 they spent· some $281, 000 on fuel exclusive of provincial tax - that was one of the questions asked by the honour able Member - and some $50,000 on salaries of three employees stationed in Winnipeg and on airport services provided by local firms, and about $8, 000 on hotel accommodations for pas sengers who were required to stay overnight in Winnipeg because of aircraft mechanical dif ficulties.

Now I presume the provincial government derived some tax benefit other than gasoline tax revenues from the expenditure of these airlines in Manitoba, but it would be difficult to estimate the extent of income and sales tax revenues that would have come as a result of that.

August 25, 1969 133 (MR. CHERNIACK cont'd.) Then there are certain federal charges about which the honourable member enquired, such as landing fees, fuel concession fees and manufacturers sales tax 12 percent on aviation fuel. This again is information that is not within our department's knowledge. The indication of the reason for this Bill and for this form of rebate is to attract foreign carriers to land in Manitoba and to use in negotiations with the Federal Department of Trans port for increased services.

I believe that that answers the questions of the honourable the member and I propose that the Bill be now sent to committee. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I might ask a question of the Minister. Do I understand clearly then that it is the intention to make the rebate retroactive, and could he tell me to what date it will be retroactive? MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I don't believe that we would agree to retroactive legislation on a tax matter.

I would say that I would again check carefully the correspondence that took place and on the basis of the commitment of the previous government, and since I am prepared to honour its commitment, that the rebates would still come before Cabinet from the date of that commitment to the date of the proclamation of the Bill, so that the commitment could be honoured in the form of remissions through the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council for the intervening period. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declar,ed the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Labour.

The Honourable Member for Charleswood. MR. ARTHUR MOUG (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I have gone over this Bill and I agree to its principle. I have reservations on certain parts of it but I believe it is something that we can go over in committee and be discussed at that time. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, if no one else wishes to speak I would like to say a word or two in connection with this Bill, and I appreciate the comments from the members opposite.

I might say quite frankly I was very much intrigued with the contribution made by the Honour able Member for Fort Garr y. It was most revealing, in that he was crticizing this government because we were not going quick enough, we were not expanding the benefits of Workmen's Compensation in Manitoba, and that we were not looking at the humane aspects of compensation.

I trust and hope that he has convinced all of his fellow Conservatives opposite of the error of their ways over the last ten years, for the Party he represents had lthe opportunity during that ten year period of time to make the changes that he says now are insufficient. Indeed, Mr.

Speaker, that government, prior to May 22nd of this year, had the opportunity of doing just what we are proposing as a step at this particular time, and I trust and hope that when we bring in other changes to the Compensation Act that we will receive from the honourable member the support that he says now is forthcoming in respect of this Bill. He asked me the question the other day as to whether or not this would apply to those who were widowed before October 1st when it comes into effect. I want to repeat the answer is yes, they will be taken care of.

So I say to my honourable friend, I'm sure as this session progresses there will be some comments from members opposite relating to statements that we made when we were on that side of the House and we will accept them. -- (Interjection) - My honourable friend who has just interjected was seated up there and he was speechless at that time and I suggest maybe that's a good suggestion for a continuation at this time. - (Interjection)-- That's right, anything I said was not worth mentioning, and I'm glad though to hear from my honourable friend, the member from Fort Garry, his comments in respect of workmen's compensation now.

Maybe he is portraying a new look for the Conservative Party of Manitoba, and it is a new look for us to look over from this side of the House to that side and we appreciate it very much. I thank my honourable friend for his co-operation at this stage of this Bill. I want to say to the Honourable Member for Assiniboia that I too appreciate his contri bution. He made mention of other changes that are necessary, as indeed we agree changes are necessary in other aspects of the Workmen's Compensation Act.

I am sure my honourable friend the Member for Assiniboia is not unmindful of my remarks on introduction of this Bill that these will be reviewed and that it is the intention of the government to have an overall complete review of all aspects of Workmen's Compensation. So I want to say thank you; I say also thank you to the Honourable Member for Charles wood. Possibly if he had've been here previous to the Conservatives being over there he

134 August 25, 1969 (MR. PAULLEY cont•d. ) .. .. . would have been just as disgusted as we were with the attitude of the previous administration to Workmen's Compensation, and I am happy to receive the full support that we are receiving at this time. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable the Attorney-General. The Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask leave of the House to have this matter stand. MR.

SPEAKER: (Agreed. ) The proposed motion of the Honourable the Attorney General. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKEN ZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I beg the indulgence of the House to have this matter stand. MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BARKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a few reservations and questions on Bill No. 17.

While it is perhaps necessary that this Bill should be passed, I feel that if some of the stipu lations in the Bill are going to be misused they could be very harmful to the producer and also to the consumer. My first question is , has the authority to establish a Board changed? Also, what percentage of producers of a certain commodity, whatever vegetable or other commodity it may be, are needed to establ!.sh a Board? I fear that in Bill 17 there is danger of discour aging production because of the wide range of powers in this Bill,: or the wide range of power of a board in this new Act.

Unless this board is directed by able producers of whatever com modity it may be, I think the efficiency of the producers could very well be discouraged. I think there is a great danger that you may have too many board members possibly of the larger type farmer, or on the other hand, it could also be too many of the too small type farmer, and I think this is going to have serious implications on the Bill or on the situation of a producer. Normally, I guess we don't go into different sections but I believe the Minister did and I think it's nearly impossible not to. I only intend to mention a few. But under

Section 27 it leaves very little initiative or freedom to the producer. I think there's a danger here that he can become a real slave of certain situations, and also I think the producer is forced, where he is forced for example to give all the details of his farming operation.

The commission - possibly this is necessary, but it's getting away from-- maybe I come from a too free enter prising area, I don't know, but I think there's a danger here and I believe that-- (Interjection) -- I'm not so sure if the Member of Lakeside was not also involved in this Bill, but I hope he's serious in what he says because I agree with him on the last part. -- (Interjection) -- Right. The producer is forced to sell when, where, on the hour, just about whenever the Board directs him to sell. Is this really good?

Also, the Commission will determine the quality, the variety, the class and what not all completely in their hands, and I feel it's going a bit far. Actually there's even a danger that the farmer is going to become a civil servant in this respect, and my honourable friend nods down there but I think this is terrible. Possibly make living a little better if you'd cut them down to 50 percent of the existing, but I feel this is why we still have a lot of farmers.

This is one position where there's still some freedom left, and this is one position where they may be their own boss, or used to be their own boss and pos sibly we're getting away from it. I think there's a danger in this Bill that we can go too far. As we know, there have been many people who have chosen farming not because of them be coming wealthy in this situation, they are doing it for the sake of freedom. And what happens to the producers exporting outside of the province? There's some questions that I think are hard to answer. I notice under

Section 34 you may have for example an over- zealous inspector who could cause extensive losses to the producer by holding, as the Act says, by manipulating or by storing perishable goods. This is something -- most of our inspectors may not be that way, but you possibly get the odd over- zealous one and the danger is there. I'd also like to point out that under 35A,

Section 4 clearly states that the Minister nor the government can mt be made liable under this Act no matter what the losses are. This is going a bit far - can not be made liable at all. I fear that we• re going to run into trouble with this Bill and I can't say that I'm against it. I think it's time that we have to do something but I believe it's going too far.

1---------- ---- ------------- August 25, 1969 (MR. BARKMAN cont• d. ) . Also under

Section 35B, it gives the magistrate the right to convict even without in formation laid under this Act. Even without any information a magistrate has the power to convict if he wishes to. Now is this really the kind of soci ety that we wish to help form ? 135 Under

Section 37, I believe it was, under

Section 37 it gives wide powers of conviction by presumption. This is a very thin line and you•d get down pretty well undemocratic if it was misused. So, Mr. Speaker, I wish to point some of these things out, and I'm sorr y the Minister is not in his seat, but I do wish and I have concern, and so has everyone in this House I'm sure. We1re thinking of the tariff situation, the many bushels of potatoes in Manitoba right now that we wish could be sold instead of the U.S. potatoes .

Well some of this Bill may be neces sary, but I believe it' s going just a bit too far, and I hope when it gets to the Commit tee stage that we can just mild some of these situations in it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Lakeside, that the debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: The proposed motion of the Honoura ble the Minister of Public Utilities. The Honoura ble Member for Fort Gar ry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, my basic objection to this Bill is one that was outlined on Thursday last by the Honourable Member for La Ver endr ye, Really it concer ns itself with the possible prolife ration of the size of the board and reflects a dangerous direct ion in terms of expansion of bureaucracy which may be unn ecessar y and which cert ainly requires some very careful scrutin y.

The Minister himself when introducing the Bill for second reading last Thursday Pointed out that the fundamental amending sec tion is intended to bring the Public Utility Board Act into line with the Municipal Board Act insofar as the composition of the Board is concerned in terms of maximum and minimum numbers.

And he went on to say that the object of the proposed amendment, while intended to make a change in the composition of the Public Utility Board that would correspond with that provided in the Municipal Board, also has the additional possible use of making it practical to appoint a sixth member of the board to take on a "hear and report" basis unde r

Section 31 of the Act. The Minister said at that juncture that some of the routine applications re garding water rate applications from country points would be con sidered of course under that section, and if the size of the board was expanded in keeping with the provision under the proposed amending section, the demands on the time of existing members who were serving in two capacities would thus be eased.

In fairne ss, Sir, I would point out, as the Minister did, that the members of the Public Utility Board are also members of the Security Commission and they do have the double function and the double demands on their time. Nonetheless, this is a concern I think of many of us in this Chamber, and I'm prepared to suggest that at this junctur e it' s also a concern of the Minister and a concern of the government.

I submit that he has given me no indication that he wants to move in the direc tion of proliferation and I would hope that he will scr utini ze this aspect of the Bill as carefully as possible to prevent extension of burea ucr acy and pro liferation of the size of the board wherever possible. So this is really the area, Sir , in which I wish to sound my alarm. As I say, it' s not orig inal because the Honoura ble Member for La Veren drye ably ra ised the objection and the warning in debate last Thursday.

Aside from that, Sir, I agree that the Bill is basically word for word the same as one that was introd uced by my Party when it occupied the treasury benches in the last Session, and in principle I cert ainly have no objection to the propositio ns contained therein, so at this juncture I'm prepared to subscribe to the Bill in principle with the reser vation that in Com mittee I would hope for close examination of the objection which I've already cited. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Second readings . The Honourab le the First Minister. MR.

PAULLEY: May we have this matter stand, Mr. Speaker, please. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Minister of Mines andl Natural Resources . MR. EVANS pres ented Bill No. 10. The Fisheries Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the indulgenc eof themembers of the House to lis ten to me for a few minutes on the prin ciple of the Bill, inasmuch as I understand that the

136 August 25, 1969 (MR. EVANS cont1d.) . . . . . previous administration, the former Minister of Mines and Natural Resources did net have an opportunity to discuss the principles involved in this par ticular Bill in the last House. Briefly, this Bill is meant to complement existing Federal legislation which established the Fresh Water Fish Marketing Corporation, which in effect is a joint Federal-Pro vincial Crown corporation.

The prime purpose of the Bill before us is to enable that corporation to operate in provincial trade with powers that parallel its powers and responsibilities in inter provincial and export trade. In other words, the federal jurisdiction extends to export trade; provincial jurisdiction extends to trade within the province; and this legislation in effect allows the fish marketing corporation to have powers and responsibilities to do with trade within provincial boundaries.

The new Crown corporation in effect introduces board marketing of fresh water fish produced in the prairie provinces, the northwest territories and a region of Ontario, namely Northwestern Ontario. The corporation would buy the fish directly from the fishermen and sell the resulting fish and fish products for export and to domestic processors and distributors.

It has long been recognized by people in the industry, by members of our community at large in Manitoba, that there are very many special problems and needs in our prairie fresh water fishing industry that requires special consideration, and this legislation in effect constitutes a major step in the reorganization and the revitalization of that industry. Now before I proceed I would mention that there were a number of minor changes in this Bill from the preceding Bill. They are of a technical nature,- however, I'm prepared to enumerate them if honourable members so wish. -- (Interjection)-- I beg your pardon?

We may do this in the Committee stage ? Fine. The objectives of this legislation are first of all to provide the primary producer, namely the fishermen, with a better share of the market value of his fish. Above all this is the primary consideration. Another major objective of the legislation is to expand total sales and over- all production in the fisheries. And thirdly, provide fishermen the opportunity of becoming an economically viable and independent entity in the industry.

It is believed that these objectives can only be achieved by the introduction of a marketing system that will result in higher and more stable prices for the catch at the lake side, and the provision of financial assistance for investment in capital equipment to the fishermen which has not been available in the past. For the information of the members of the House, the fresh water fishing industry of Manitoba produces approximately 30 million pounds of fish per annum of an average catch of about 74 .1 million pounds produced in the designated area of the operations of the corporation.

That is roughly 40 to 45 percent of the freshwater fish that is caught in the three prairie provinces, the northwest territories and northwestern Ontario. This production normally constitutes, I'm informed, a value to the Manitoba fishermen of less than $4 million per annum, The volume of fish caught and the prices paid of course fluctuate widely from year to year.

The number of fishermen in the industry that share this return fluctuates between 3, 000 and 4, 000 persons annually, and it is clearly evident that the income earned by the fishermen is too low, because they receive an unduly small share of the final price paid to the consumer for his produce. I think this is a typical case of an imperfectly competititive industry, Mr. Speaker. It's a situation where on the Canadian-- I would point out that the bulk of our production is sold abroad. I think about 90 percent of the production is sold abroad.

It's sold to a rather well- organized group of importers and on this side, unfortunately, the situation has been one of imperfect competition, where in effect we've had perhaps too many producers and even perhaps too many distributors, so that we've had a very unfair balance. In economic theory terms you're dealing with an imperfectly competitive situation here versus an oligopsonistic situation in the United States, and the failure of this competitive economic system can be overcome by the introduction of this legislation.

The domestic handling and processing of fresh water fish had tended to be inefficient and costly because of the duplication of facilities at the lakeside and at the processing levels. And !'m not suggesting that all these facilities are inefficient but there are many that tend to be, and of course there is the matter of duplication. The duplication also existed at the ex port level, weakening the position of the exporter in bargaining with the importer, that is the Manitoba exporter bargaining with the U. S, importer, which resulted in the reduction in

�-----------------------------------·�---··-·------ August 25, 1969 137 (MR. EVANS cont•d. ) . . . . . export return being passed on to the fishermen. In effect the Manitoba fishing industry has been characterized - and I think this is true of the fresh water fish industry in the other provinces concerned - has been characterized by out-moded business practices and extremely heavy indebtedness on the part of the fishermen. It's also been characterized by rather low and uncertain incomes of the fishermen which has in turn made it difficult if not impossible for the fishermen to improve their equipment.

As many members know, much of the equipment is still owned by the fish companies, and heavy indebtedness to the companies have given the fishermen no choice but to sell their fish to the companies which financed them. For their part the companies found the provision of credit extensive and often the companies lacked the financial strength to hold their product until the best price could be obtained.

By meeting the stated objectives in the proposed legislation we hope to create a new environment which will attract capital investment into the industry and which will, we hope, ultimately raise the levels of income of fishermen to the point where they obtain a much higher standard of living and where they become more credit worthy. In effect the Bill will provide the necess ary provincial powers to the newly created fresh water fish marketing corporation to undertake in the province the function and the responsibilities necessary to meet this ob jective.

The question may arise, why wasn•t this legislation introduced earlier ? And Pm not specifically thinking of the election and all that, but simply there was a matter of federal provincial negotiation which Pm sure my honourable friends on the other side realize had to take place. An interim measure was taken by passage of Order-in-Council, and I needn 't go into that detail, to allow Manitoba to sign an agreement with the Federal Government.

The action proposed in this legislation has been based upon years of study and years, I might add, of correspondence as I understand between ourselves, other provinces concerned and the Federal Government. Finally, the Mclvor Commission was established to study this question of marketing and the Mcivor Commission Report constructed a model of a board marketing scheme in order to e:xamine more closely the problem of economic consequences . And the information I am given, Mr.

Speaker, is that on the basis of the model the committee confirmed the belief that a marketing board was a feasible and economically viable operation, that is the Fish Marketing Corporation, and that on the basis of the estimates and judgments used in the preparation of the economic model it could operate without a direct cost to the government and ultimately the people at any level. It is not the intention of the corporation to duplicate existing facilities in the industry.

In fact it would indeed see k to reduce unnecess ary duplication of facilities and improve the efficiency by streamlining the flow of products to market. Orderly marketing would be planned in consultation with the trade, that is the existing trade acting as the agent of the corporation, and it is my underst anding that members of the trade are now acting as agents of the corpora tion. In planning new investment in processing, refrigerated storage, packaging and trans portation fields, the industry would be assisted by the corporation.

It is proposed, however, that existing plant facilities would be used wherever feasible and it is economically sound to do so. Now we recognize that the introduction of the new sys tem in some instances may not require all the plant pres ently available at the lake level. Therefore, the Bill contains pro vision for the arrangements for compensation to the owner of any plant or equipment used in storing, processing or otherwise preparing fish for market that may be rendered redundant by the operations of the corporation.

It is not intended that any redundancy other than obvious cases of duplication of lake facilities will occur during the transition period to the new system . All existing facilities are required during this period. Now I understand some facilities did go out of operation but this was voluntary on the part of those companies . The Board would have utilized their se rvices if they had so wished to remain active.

It must be clearly understood by the industry that the compensation for redundancy is only being considered by the government because of the very special problems of the industry, and therefore certain conditions must be met before any compensation will be made. Plants therefore may be considered redundant now that the corporation has commenced operating, and if the plant concerned has a previous history of being an earning asset in the trade the onus will be on the owner to prove to the government's satisfaction that his plant is in excess of

138 August 25, 1969 (MR. EVANS cont •d. ) . . . . . the maximum requirements of the corporation because it is wrongly situated or because of the duplication of facilities . However, a plant will not be con sidered redundant if it does not comply with the applicable standards laid down by the Fish Inspection Act of Canada or of our own Fisheries Act, or if the owner refuses or fails to ne gotiate in good faith for the performance of any service for the corporation.

The importance of co-operation of the existing companies during the implementation or the transition period of the corporation's operations cannot be over-emphasized and every measure available must be employed to assure this. If the plant can be utilized for some purpose other than in the in dustry which is comparably beneficial to the owner, it will not be considered redundant. This is stipulated in the Bill and I will mention it now . Claims for redundancy will not be accepted after May 1, 1971, that is two years from the date of implementation of the corporation. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to mention another very important feature of the Bill, namely credit for fishermen. As proposed by the Mcivor Commission, the corporation intends to establish initial prices for each species by grade at the opening of each season, and later to distribute to the fishermen in a final payment any additional earnings obtained through market ing of the catch. The corporation is also empowered to extend short term credit to fishermen to finance the purchase of food and fishing supplies following the established practice in the industry.

In other words, the corporation, the Federal-Provincial corporation is empowered to make seasonal credit available to the fishermen. However, longer term credit will no longer be available from the fish companies since fish companies no longer depend on fis': �rmen direc tly for a supply of fish. Therefore, to fill this gap the Bill before you includes powers for direct lending of funds to fishermen.

It is suggested that a revolving fund be created for the purposes of providing loans to fishermen for the purchase of capital equipment such as boats, motors, bombardiers and other such items direc tly related to their occu pation as fishermen. The loan fund - and I think this is an ex cellent idea - the loan fund, in order to cut down on the duplication of agencies, the loan fund will be administered by an existing agency, the Manitoba Agricultural Credit and Development Corporation. There is a possibility of joint funding of the lending agency by the Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.

This is now being explored by officials in my de partment. This assistance is being sought because approximately 35 percent of the fishermen are treaty Indians and therefore it is felt, and rightly so, that the Government of Canada should share in the responsibility for a program that will benefit all fishermen. Unfortunately, the majority of fishermen do not possess the assets or the credit worthi ness that commer cial institutions require to qualify for a longer term loan. By that I mean from one to ten years, Mr. Speaker.

Recogn izing therefore the distinctive problems of the in dustry, special treatment is deemed necessary in terms of lending policies. To qualify for a loan an applicant must have been actively engaged in the fresh water fishing in Manitoba during at least three years of the five years immediately preceding the date application is made. And for the information of the members of the House and possibly the news media, other qualifica tions for a loan will include: (1) acceptance of loan supervision; (2) repayment by way of a check-off system through the Marketing Corporation; (3) the experience as a fisherman.

Loans may be made to fishermen for the purchase of fishing equipment including shore installa tion; secondly, for the consolidation of outstanding liabilities incurred for productive fishing purposes; and thirdly, other purposes that may be related to the establishment and development of an economic commer cial fishing operation subject to the approval of the directors of the lending agency. One other feature that I would mention, Mr. Speaker, and that is that the legislation be fore you attempts to consolidate all existing provincial legislation.

It brings together existing provincial legislation affecting the management of the commer cial fisheries resources. In cluded is a part replacing the existing Fish Inspection Act of Manitoba which will complement fish marketing aspects of the legislation and which will enable the Federal Fish Inspection Service to service the provincial trade in fish with similar powers that are contained in the Fish Inspection Act of Canada that affects Interprovincial and Export Trade. The Bill also re peals the existing Fisheries Act,

Chapter 94 of the Revised Statutes of Manitoba, the provisions of which are contained either in this Bill or in the Fisheries Act of Canada and the Manitoba .?isheries Regulations. I might add in passing, Mr . Speaker, that the Federal Bill, the Federal legislation in Bill C-148 was passed and proclaimed effective May 1st, 1969, and I am also informed that the other provinces involved in this scheme have passed similar legislation or have taken

August 25, 1969 139 (MR. EVANS cont'd. ) .... appropriate action to participate in the scheme. It is now Manitoba's turn to pass the appropriate legislation, and this is rather ironical because I will give credit where credit is due, that it is Manitoba that has taken the lead in developing this very worth while fishing legislation. Throughout the negotiations with federal and other provincial and territorial representa tives the importance of a smooth transition to the new marketing system has been emphasized.

Preparations on the part of the industry and the corporation for mutual support of the summer fishery of 1969 appear to be successful in providing the normal requirements for this operation. We are actively prepared to support and encourage the existing industry and the corporation in assuring normal service to the fishermen. Our support will be reinforced - the support of the government will be reinf orced by the early introduction and passage of this Bill through the House. In summation therefore, Mr.

Speaker, I am sure everyone will agree with me that this very worthwhile legislation deserves support from all sides. It is something that is very much in keeping with my analysis of our economic system. Here is a case where economic competi tion did not work and we have to replace it with a government set-up, a marketing board com parable to marketing boards which we have established in other resource areas, in other resource areas, in other natural products areas. We found that competition simply does not work. The low standard of living of fishermen is evidence of this. If we pass this Bill, Mr.

Speaker, the results simply will be, by way of summation again I will repeat, will give the fishermen of Manitoba a much higher standard of living; and secondly, in a very real way this legislation will contribute to the economic development of the good Province of Manitoba. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether the Honourable Minister will permit a question ? MR. EVANS: Yes. MR. SPIV AK: I take it that you will.

I wonder if you could inform the House whether you have had an opportunity to discuss the contents of the Bill, or any technical changes that have been mentioned, with any members of the fish processing indus try? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, yes I have had discussion with such people and I believe they are prepared to make some representations at the co=ittee stage of this Bill. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. ENNS : Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Member from Souris-Killarney, that debate on this matter be adjourned. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 8. The Honourable Minister of Finance. MR. CHERNIACK presented Bill No. 8,

an Act to amend the Insurance Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, I can' t say what I have said with other bills that this Bill is identical with the one which was presented by the previous government at the session which was ended so abruptly by it. The only change however is a change which the government itself was going to propose by way of an amendment, and I point it out for those who are inter ested in comparison that the last

section had added to it an additional

section which would come into force on a day fixed by proclamation. If I may have the indulgence of the House to refer to the

section numbers, let me be specific for the information of members .

Section 11 now pro vides that sections 6, 7 and 8 shall come into force on a day fixed by proclamation. The Bill presented at the previous session did not include 8 in that group but it had been intended by the government to move an amendment at the committee session to make that so. I can only assume tfloat it was an oversight, a typographical oversight. Other than that, Mr. Speaker, the Bill is identical with the one which was presented at the last session and not dealt with. I understand that the Bill is mainly for the purpose of clarifying existing legislation.

The items are, in the main, recommendations of the Association of Pro vincial Superintendents of Insurance for enactment by all provinces and it is intended that there become greater uniformity in the application of the Insurance Act. I can assure members of the committee that I'l l see to it that the Superintendent of Insurance or his representative will be present at the committee stage when this Bill is dealt with so that it can be dealt with in detail with his expertise available to members of the committee.

140 August 25, 1969 MR. SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Member for Souris-Killarney. MR. EARL McKELL AR (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, with the assurance of the Hon ourable Min ister of Finance that the Bill is identical to the one proposed last sessi on, our Party are quite agreed to go ahead with this at this time. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question ? MR. CHERNIACK: If I may, without closing debate, point out that it is only identical, it is identical with the exception of that small change which I indicated earl ier.

If the honourable member is satisfied with that, then I'm prepared to close the debate only by sitting down and asking for the motion. Is that satisfactory ? MR. McKELLAR: We can discuss this furt her in committee anyway. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 5. The Honourable Attorney- General. MR. MACKLING pres ented Bill No. 5,

an Act to amend The Pipeline Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER pres ented the motion. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, this Bill is in exactly the same letter form as was intro duced by the previous administration in this House. It is a companion bill to the other two bills that are on the Order Paper for second reading to facilitate the registration of a pipeline, or pipelines, in a standard form easement agreement rather than by filing a caveat based on private agreement. This is a standard form of easement that apparently is in use in jurisdict ions where they have had more use of pipelines.

We unders tand that the pipeline is being held up from com pletion or progress because the regis tration of the agreement has not been able to be proceeded with. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No . 6. The Honourable the Attorney- General. MR. MACKLING presented Bill No . 6,

an Act to amend The Gas Pipeline Act, for second reading. in g. MR. SPEAKER pres ented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 28. The Honourable Minist er of Muni cipal Affairs . MR. PAWLEY pres ented Act No. 28,

an Act to amend The Municipal Act for second read- MR. SPEAKER pres ented the motion. MR, PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, this Bill No. 28, to the best of my knowledge, is identical to the earlier Bill that had been introd uced in the prior session by the previous government. It deals with thr ee different items. First, in regard to the streamlining of certain - the opportunity or the ability of municipalities to raise moneys in respect to the Manitoba Ce ntennial Cor poration this year, coming up 1970. Referenc e to

Section 3 of the Bill pertaining to the particulars in respect to the raising - raising of an amount that is not greater than the amount that would be raised by a levy of four mills on each dollar of the equalized assesse d value of property in a municipality as that equalized assessment value is shown for the year 1969 by the Provincial Municipal Assessor may be expended by the municipality from general reser ve funds .

The second main area of amendment deals with certain recommendations that had been made in order to streamline or to cut the expenses that are involved in auditing pres ently in the Provinc e of Manitoba. These are all procedural changes and all are the same as were in the prior Bill and are required in order to cut down some of the variou s costs that are pres ently in curred in auditing.

The third change deals with local improvement grants and it provides for the provinc e to pay local improvement charges against land that may be required by the provinc e for one purpose or another, that would otherw ise render the land exempt from local improvement levies . There app:uently has been some hardship in the past where the provinc e has expropriated properties and has left quite a sizable amormt of local improvement charges owing over a period of time in the future that have been cut off and this has caused considerable financial difficulty to variou s municipalities. That, Mr.

Speaker, is the main content of the proposed amendments. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the ques tion ? MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honou rable Member from Swan River, that the debate be adjourn ed. MR. SPEAKER pres ented the motio::J. and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 12 . The Honourable Minister of Co:'lBumer and Cor porate Affairs .

August 25, 1969 141 MR. TOUPIN presented Bill No . 12, The Consumer Protection Act, for se cond reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. TOUPIN: The following are the basic principles and the most significant provisions of this Bill.

Part I. Full disclosure of the cost of borrowing and credit purchasing.

(1) Full disclosure of the cost of borrowing or obtaining credit in retai l sales of goods or services where the cost of borrowing and the price exceeds $50. 00 and where the price does not exceed $7, 500, is by this legislation required to be clearly set out by agreement in writing. As the legislation is consumer oriented, sales to corp::>rations and wholesale transactions are not included. The credit sales contract must set out in detail the items of cost making up the sum to be repaid by a purchaser and the detail of the manner in which the payme!lts are to be made .

A true copy of the agreement must be provided to the purchaser and such an agreement is not binding upon the purchaser unless this is done. Similar provisions are mad·e in respec t of higher purchase agreements .

(2) The legislation requires that the extension of variable credit must be covered by agree ment, signed by the borrower, se tting out clearly the rate of charge for the credit extended, the amount and the terms of repayment and the interest rate on payment. in arrea rs . A copy of the agreement must be given to the borrower or variable credit purchaser.

(3) The legislation requires full disclosure of the details of the cost of the loan and re financing by money lende rs in loan agreements. It does not apply to loans on real property, loans of less than $50, 00 or more than $7, 500, on loans to corporations . A copy of the loan or refinancing agreement that is subject to legislation must be supplied to the borrower.

(4) Provision is made by this legislation where by a statement of payment must be ac companied in the advertise ment by a full disclosure of the total price, including the cost of cre dit and the true rate of interest expressed as a percen tage . The principles and purpose underlying

Part I of The Consumer Protect ion Act: A more in formed use of credit and of the cost the reof; a more meaningful degree of disclosure so that the consumer may compare various credit terms available and avoid an uninformed and uswise use of credit.

Part II. Prepayment privileges. The proposed legislation pres cribes that in respect of any credit sale, loan or refinancing contracts to which it applies, the borrower is entitled to prepay the bala nce owing at any time, and on doing so is entitled to a rebate of unearned cost of borrowing. Part m, IV and V dealing with accele ration and forfeiture s, time sales agreements, and chattel mortg-ages .

(1) Provision is made for the courts to grant relief to a borrower in respect to accelera tion of payments under agreement due to default and in respect of se izures and forfeitures of goods relative thereto .

(2) The legislation make s provision in respect of time sales, that is retail sales where the possessi on of goods is transferred to the buyer but not title to the goods until all payments and the costs of credit have been paid in full. In such time sales the following applies: The seller must give notice of repossession se tting out the requirements to redeem the goods and give the purchaser the opportunity to redeem them. Where the balance owing is less than 25 percent of the cash price the sel ler may not repossess the goods without leave of the court.

Where the seller repossesses the goods his rights are limited to repossess ion and sale thereof and no further action is maintainable for the balan ce, and this provision has been carried for ward from The Consumer Credit Act of 1965.

(3) Provision is made whereby a chattel mortgagee may not repossess goods secured by an agreement without leave of the court where the balanc e owing by the mortgagor is less than 25 percent of the total obligation originally secured. Statutory warranties in retail sales. The Sale of Goods Act provides for certain implied conditions and warranties in respect of contract of sales generally, but these could always be avoided by private contracts .

Part VI of the proposed legislation provides ce rtain basic warranti es and conditions in respect of retail sales, notwithstanding any contract that might be made to the contrary. The provision applies whether the retail sale is on credit or for cash. A co�dition that the seller has a right to sell the goods . Further, a warranty that the buyer shall enjoy quiet posses sion and a warranty that the goods are free of encumbrance except as to those the buyer has

142 August 25, 1969 (MR. TOUPIN cont•d. ) .... especially agreed to accept in the contract. A condition that the goods are new and unused unless clearly otherwise described. A condition that the goods sold by desc ription correspond with the desc ription. And a condition that the goods sold by sample correspond with the sample and the buyer will have the opportunity to compare the goods sold with the sample that has been shown.

Part VII. Direct Sellers . The Consumer Credit Act of 1965 provided for a two-day cancel lation period in respect of door-to-door sales where the contract was in writing. The proposed legislation provides for a four-day cancellation period in such sales whether or not the contract is in writing and provides for refund of money paid upon proper cancellation under the terms of the legislation.

Part VIII. Ass ignees . An attemp� has been made by this sec tion of the proposed legisla tion to afford more adequate protection to a borrower where the credit grantor assigns his con tractual interest to another. A breach of conditions or warranties in respect of goods sold may be set off in an action by assignee on the promiss ory note which is taken collateral to a credit sales contract and assigned, A copy of the credit sale agreement must be provided to an assignee with a promissory note which has been assigned and relates to the credit sales contract.

Part IX. The Consumers Bureau. The proposed legislation provides for the es tablishment of a Consumer Bur eau in the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs to administer the provisions of the legislation, including the licensing and the bonding of direct se llers and col lection agents. The Bureau will be responsible for inves tigating complaints or breaches of the requirements of the legislation and for providing information to the public that will assist the consumer to become better informed and more knowledgeable in today's complex retail market place.

PartX. - I'd like to wind up in French, it might be better. - Licensing. These sec tions set out in some detail the procedures for granting and revoking licences of direct sellers and collection agents and for bonding requirements relative thereto. It is to be noted that the provision is made for review by the Co.1rt in respect of decisions made in this regard by the Director of the Consumer Bureau, and which decisions may adversely affect applicants for licences and licencees.

The proposed legislation is a result of a study of consumer problems initiated approxim ately four years ago and of a careful consideration of the briefs and repres entations made to the Standing Committee of this Legislature on Orders and Regulations on the basis of a draft statute prese nted in April 1967. As the principles in many of the provisions of the proposed legislation have been long under consideration and deliberation, the same is now presented for legislative action, Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the ques tion? MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Riel, that debate on this measure be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER prese nted the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Bill No. 27. The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. PAWLEY pres ented Bill No. 27,

An Act to amend The Metropolitan Winnipeg Act, for seco::1d reading, and re1pest ed that it be referred to the Municipal Affairs committee if passed. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. PAWLEY: Well, Mr. Speaker, this is a Bill that - well quite frankly I regret very much that the prior government did not see fit to introduce this legislation.

It's in the same form as the previous piece of legislation, and if there's one piece of legislation that was most missed by the elderly people within the Greater Winnipeg area that was not passed in the last se ssion, this is probably one of the most major pieces of legislation deleted insofar as they were concerned. It was brought very closely home to me d·1ring the campaign in going through the Middlechurch Home which is part of my constituency. Many of the elderly people there ex pressed great concern that this Bill had not been dealt with in the prior session.

So it is my hope that we can introduce and pass this Bill as expeditiously as possible through this House in the interests of the Older people that it is particularly aimed at, and there isn•t a great deal that I can explain about it except it' s basically enabling legislation which gives to the Metropolitan Corporation of Winnipeg the right to set a reduced fare insofar as those that are already in receipt of Old Age Security is concerned. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Ho�1ourable Member for Rhineland.

,------- ------------------ 1 August 25, 1969 143 MR. FROESE: Mr. Speaker, I would just have a few remarks and these are probably in the form of a question more than commenting. I would like to know from the Honourable Minister whether we have any other urban areas or municipalities that are supplying service of this nature and whether they are restricted in their operations in being able to set lower rates. Since this Bill will only apply to the metropolitan area of Greater Winnipeg, what about the other areas? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Riel. MR. CRAIK: Mr.

Speaker, just a brief few words with respect to this Bill. Our group of course is quite prepared and anxious to support this without any hesitation whatsoever or without any delay in order that it can get into operation as fast as possible. This request for this, as I recall, did come from the Metropolitan Corporation of Winnipeg in the initial instance, and in batting order of credits due for its initiation, I want to thank the Ho!lourable Minister for pointing out that the previous government did initiate the Bill its elf. However, we can't take all the credit for this.

We must also pass on the credit to the body which initiated this prior to the previous government, which was the Metropolitan Corporation of Greater Winnipeg, and I of course wouldn't want to proceed any further without proper credit being given to those people who were responsible for that. So with those few words, Mr.

Speaker, may I also add that in addition to the many people that live in the honourable member' s conEtituency, in Middlechurch, I suppose it won•t help them too much in Selkirk itself, but there are many other elderly people living in many homes, private and in multiple homes, who are going to be able to take advantage of the effects of this Bill. And with those few wol'ds we heartily endorse the passi ng of this BiU and certainly hope that the Metropolitan Corporation can do likewise. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATR ICK: Mr. Speaker, I too rise to support the bill.

I know that members of our group are certainly in agreement with the bill and and I know that probably some credit should be given to the previous administration for intr oducing it one stage; but I do feel too that probably that same administration should be severely criticized for not putting the legi slation through the last Session. -- (Interjection) -- I don•t think it was too big a job to do at that time because certainly I know the government at that time would have probably recei ved full support from the other side of the House, Mr. Speaker.

I also would like to say at this time that last Session during the Throne Speech debate be fore the bill was even introduced in this House, I did request the government and thought at that time the government should make some consideration for old age people in respect to transit fares, and as well that there should be some formula in respect to transportation grants in all of the areas. So as well at that time I should say that some credit should be taken by our group because we were pushing for this thing at the last Session. So, Mr.

Speaker, we certainly are in agreement and would not wish to delay the bill at all. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS, (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, if this is credit day and if we're going to be judged on this I wish to state simply that I was the first one in this House to ask the Mi niste r if he was going to do something about that - the previous minister - and all we got, "in due course". MR. SPEAKER P'lt the questi on and after a voice vote declare:d the motion carried. MR. CHERNIACK presented Bi ll No. 22, the Financial Administration Act, for second reading.

MR. CHERNIACK: May I indicate, Mr. Speaker, it' s been pointed out to me that the name of the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture' s name appears on th'e front page of the bill. I1 m happy to share credit with him but it' s not correct. It should have been my name. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker, this bill is in identical form with the bill which was presented by the former government at the last Session and which was not dealt with because of its precipitous haste.

It is a bill which deals with the updating of the three bills referred in it: the Treasury Act with many amendments thereto; the Loans Act and its amendments and the Debt Retirement Act. Mr. Speaker, we had previ ously indicated that we are reviewing the Cabinet structure and the structure of departments, but in this case we felt it was important to deal with the bill which will come before us immediately following this one, and in order _to do that it had to be carried in as a package. What this bi ll does is to bring in a new act for the

144 August 25, 1969 (MR. CHE RNIACK cont•d. ) .... administration of the Departme!lt of Finance. It is, as I say, identical with that which had been proposed by the previous government. Certainly it's a lengthy bill. In Committee we will see to it that the proper personnel are present who will be able to advise on it and answer any specific questions . The main thing it does is extract from the former, or the existing acts, those portions which deal with the Comptroller- General so that it would make it possible to set up a Provincial Auditor as a separate entity reportable to the Legislature. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for River Heights that debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. CHER NIACK pres ented Bill No. 23, the Provincial Auditor' s Act, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. CHER NIACK: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated, this bill will deal with the appointment of a provincial auditor, a post which has been debated many times in the last few years where it was really members of the then opposition, members of o•1r party and of the Liberal party, that were insistent that such a post be created so that there be reporting made to the legislature and complete review be available in that way.

The government of the day argued that it was not a necessary appointment and obviously it became so p·ersuaded because it did in fact prepare this bill which is in the same form as the bill which had been prepared by the former government, pres ented at the last Sessio n and fell by the wayside with all the qthers that did. Ag-d.in, there may be ques tions in detail which I could try to deal with on closing debate or in ariy event we could deal with them in Committee when it is referred to Committee. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. FROESE : Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member from Portage la Prairie that debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER pres ented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. MACKLING presented Bill No. 2, the Statute Law Revision and Statute Law Amend ment Act, 1969, for second reading. MR. SPEAKER pres ented the motion. MR. MACKIJNG: Mr. Speaker, explanation of this bill would take the rest of the after noon.

If my honourable friends would like I'll go into the details, but in effect what this omni bus statute law revision act provides for is for the detailed correction of errors, some slight amendments as are necessa ry and so on from time to time, to improve the wording and the effect of various statutes that are in being. It's the kind of act that should receive deliberation and consideration in Law Ame!ldments Committee where the various details of the changes and corrections in various statutes are elaborated upon. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question ? The Ho:tourable Member for River Heights , MR.

SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member from La keside that the debate be adjourned. MR. SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. MACKLING presented Bill No. 7,

an Act to amend the Re'll Property Act, for se cond reading, MR. SPEAKER presented the motion. MR. MACKLING: The short explanation of this act is similar to the two other acts which I have introduced in respect to the Gas Pipeline Act and the Pipeline Act. In short, Mr.

Speaker, what this government is hoping to do by the passage of these bills which were introduced by the previous administration and not acted upon, was to complete arrangements in respect to the building of a pipeline that app3.rently is very pressi ng in Manitoba, and we as a government are not prepared to fl"..lstrate good private enterprise in this province for political expediency. -- (Interjection) -- MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. FROE SE: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to rise on one point and that is that I want to tharik the honourable the ministers for explaining certian bills .

They might take it for granted that these bills since they were introduced in the last Legislature that an explanation had been given. That is not the case in connection with all bills . Not all bills that come up for sec ond reading past se cond reading, and therefore explanations were not heard and therefore whe!l

August 25, 1969 145 (MR, FROESE cont•d. ) .... explanations are given on sec ond reading I do appreciate this. MR. SPEAKER put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. PAWLEY presented Bill No. 11,

an Act to Adjust Certain Benefits arising out of the Operation of the Group Life Insurance Plan for Public Servants, for sec ond reading. MR. PA WLEY: If passed, Mr. Speaker, through second reading it will be referred to Law Amendments Committee, MR, SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. . . . . . . . continued on next page

146 August 25, 1969 MR. SPEAKER: The adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for Osborne for an Addrass to His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor in answer to his speech at the opening of the sessi on and the proposed motion of the Honourable Leader of the Official Opposition in amendment thereto. The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. MR. DESJA RDlNS: Thank you. Mr. Speaker , I am happy to congratulate you on your appointment as Speaker of this House.

If you need any reassurance let me inform you that I'm sure all the members of this House are convinced that you have the ability and integrity to discharge your duties with fairness and impartiality. It is true that the Premier bent over backwards to be fair, to demonstrate that when it came to sel ecting a person who could eventually become the permanent speaker of this House he wasn't going to be partisan.

I know that you were one of those, Sir, that suggested that the former speaker was well respected and would be an excellent choice; and you, as well as all members who had previous experience in this House had se en enough of the Honourable Member for Rhineland to know that he was also one of the most sincere and straightforward persons in this House, and that he also would be quite acceptable. Now the Premier of this province never tried to grade any of the candidates. This of course is unwise when there are so many certainly that have the necessary qualification to fill the bill.

When you received the call, Sir, it was certainly obvious that you were not too eager to accept and that you would prefer to continue serving the people of your constituency in the way that you had been over the years; and your hesitation certainly was obvious when you had to be forcefully dragged to the Chair, Mr. Speaker. But of course , your main interest was the wel fare of the province and for this we are very thankful.

It might be encouraging for you but I' m sure a little bitembarrassingalso, Sir, to know that you and not the Honourable Member from Swan River , not the former Speaker, but you were the first choice of the former premier. And of course we will remind him that he has pledged himself and the members of his caucus to always support you and assist you in this House - in this Chamber, Mr. Speaker. Now I also wish to congratulate the new Premier of Manitoba who seems to possess all the qualities needed to lead Manitoba and to guide its citizens .

It would appear that after a few years of searching the people of Manitoba finally came up with a premier who will not be only content to follow, will not be a pulse taker but a leader in the true sense of the word. - (Interjection) -- It would seem that - do you only have three that are candidates for your party out there ? It would seem that he's not afraid of changes although I'm sure he will not make changes only for the sake of it. But what I admire most in him, and what has prompted me to give him my support although I do not belong to the same party, is his integrity.

The fact that he is interested in protecting individual human rights and wishes social and greater equality of opportunity to all. This is a joke to the members opposite us but I can assure you, Sir, it isn't a joke with the Premier of this province. I'm also convinced that he is ready to tackle bigotry and prejudice head on if need by, if it should arise, and that he will certainly do every thing possible to try to eradicate it.

He also believes that the people of Manitoba should have greater participation in their government; and for the information of the Leader of the Opposition who I was sure would not be in his seat today, this is what he calls a Social democrat and this is what I call a Liberal democrat. We are that close and I'm sure that he's not more a radical socialist than I am. Any of my friends from opposite me would find it very difficult to classify me in this category. MR. ENNS: The big question is, what were you when you were elected ? MR. DESJARDlNS: I'll show you what I was when I was elected.

I was a person that was free that was asked by the people to use his own judgment and his conscience and I' ve done so . I would also like at this time to congratulatethe new ministers who I'm sure will do very well in their new responsibilities. The mover and the se conder of the Speech from the Throne also did an excellent job, probably the best that I' ve witnessed since I'm in this House, and I'm sure that we will hear some more from them, Mr. Speaker.

I wish the House Leaders of the different parties well, and I'm particularly pleased with the choice of my friend the Honour able Member from Portage la Pr airie as House Leader of the Liberal Party . I'm sure that he will carry out his duties with the same dedication as his two predecessors . As far as the Leader of the Official Opposition is concerned, I do hope that he will have a little more success sitting on your left, Sir, than he had sitting on your right. It is obvious that he will be a little more vocal and that certainly is encouraging.

I even find myself agree ing with him in some of the things that he has said this year - and, of course, I'm referring to

August 25, 1969 147 (MR. DESJ ARDlliS cont'd. ) ..... the kind words he had for Mr . Doug. Campbell who for many years has been "Mr. Manitoba" to many of us. A man who enjoys the respect and admiration of all Manitobans - I should say all Canadians - ev.en those that did not agree with him. Personally he has been my idol because of his sincerity and honesty. It is my belief that he will be missed very much and very often in this Chamber, Mr. Speaker. And the member of this House who early during the last election campaign suggested that Mr.

Camp bell might seek re-election because he wanted to establish a record of 50 years in office, showed crass ignorance and was most unfair. And if he is any kind of a man, Mr. Speaker, I suggest to the present member from Lakeside that he should apologize to a person who will be remembered long after Manitobans have forgotten him. Mr. Speaker, I would like to express my gratitude to the First Minister at this time for the confidence that he has shown in me in selecting me as his Legislative assistant.

It is my understanding, that although I may be called on by him to assist in diverse matters , my main responsibility will be in the field of Dominion-Provincial relations, and that I will be asked to head the new Secretariat of Dominion-Provincial relations. It is indeed a challenge, but it is something close to my heart and I am most anxious to accept this challenge, Mr. Speaker.

The main objective of this Secretariat will be to ensure the Manitoba mosaics , not as a political entity but as a mosaic of people living and understanding democracy and the democratic processes , not only of Manitoba but of all our fair country, Mr . Speaker. The main language in Manitoba must be one that will be spoken in a figurative way of speech, that is the language of understanding and respecting one another. We will not strive for uniformity but unity amongst the different groups in our mosaic.

This Secretariat, Sir, I would hope will promote better understanding and respect amongst the different groups of this province and of the whole of Canada. Let me assure you that this government will not seek to divide the different ethnic groups of Manitoba to derive any political gain but will do everything possible to ensure that here in Manitoba we will have no second-class citizens . We will work with all the ethnic groups and we will surely work to promote justice for all Manitobans regardless of their racial origin.

In saying this, Sir, I have no illusion that this will be an easy task or that I as an individual can accomplish anything by myself and if it is with eagerness that I accept this challenge, it is also withhumility. The government of Manitoba, and I speak for the government in saying this, will do every thing in its power to promote this understanding between all our citizens; but we cannot do it alone. We need the cooperation of all the members of this House and all the citizens of our province.

In the coming weeks, we will be contacting the diff�rent groups in the province in order to learn what they would need to exist and flourish as cultural �:roups in the province. These initial steps , we hope, may lead to a provincial conference of all the different cultural groups in the very near future. These aims of ours we will place above partisan politics. We will not introduce partisan politics in any of our deliberations . And we will not tolerate that anyone else do so.

If the Leader of the Opposition is serious and sincere in presenting his resolution on monarchy - and I have no reason to believe that he isn't - we will be only too happy to consider it. The First Minister stated that I was quite interested in the field of national unity, and he is right. I think that most of the members of this House are aware of this, Sir, and aware that it is high on my priority list. And you, Sir, must know that the views of the Leader of the New Democratic Party on this subject had much to do with my decision to support him in office.

If nothing else, if because of my actions, national unity can take a step , however small, towards becoming a reality, I will be well pleased and well rewarded. But speaking of rewards and payments , it might be disappointing to some people to know that I have received no personal gain, that I ask for no personal gain, that I was promised no personal gain -- (Interjection) -- What was that ? MR. ENNS: A labour of love. MR. DESJA RDlliS: That's right. Of course my honourable friend would not understand what this labour of love is. A man that can condemn Mr . Camp bell and say that Mr.

Campbell is trying to look for a 50-year record -- Would you please sit down and wait till I' m finished please, thank you. MR. ENNS: I think the member has more apologizing to do to Mr. Campbell than any body else has. That deserter of the Liberal Party! And he talks to me about apologizing. I' ll be .•..

148 August 25, 1969 MR. DESJARDINS: Well, now that we have a speech from the fellow that always sticks his foot in it, I can continue, Mr. Speaker. MR. ENNS: I'm only listening to you my friend . MR. DESJARDINS: You can ask Mr. Campbell what he thinks and then we'll have the real ans wer. A MEMBER: Read on. Read on. Read on my ..... MR. DESJARDINS: I was saying that speaking about rewards and payments that it might be disappointing for some of you to see that there was none coming. I know that you'll be very careful, and I welcome this.

Sir, - (Interjections) -- I don't mind if they speak but I'd like to hear one at a time plea se, Sir. Maybe the Member for Fort Garry has something to say this time ? MR. SPEAK ER: May the honourable member continue without interruption. MR. DESJARDINS: But I would also want it understood immediately that those people with their innuendos and accusations will not push me to the other ridiculous extreme either and it will not prevent me from serving Manitoba. I can ill afford to pay for the privilege of serving Manitoba.

This probably can go on for awhile, but unfortunately I'm not in the same financial bracket as the Honourable Member for River Heights and Lakeside and others on this side of the House.

And let's have it quite clear at this time, Sir, that I'm not saying that if after a period of trial my remaining as a Legislative assistant heading the Secretariat of Dominion-Provincial Relations , proves of some benefit to the people of Manitoba, and the Premier wishes me to continue this arrangement , that I will not accept some remuneration to compensate for the reduction in salary that I must expect from my private employment. I know that the Honourable Member from Osborne is also in the same position.

But before some of those members get too excited, before they feel the start of something, let me assure you, let me assure them , that if a sum of money is involved , it will have to be approved by the members of this House . Nothing will ever be hidden from them, Mr. Speaker , and the amount will be so small that even my political enemies will not be able to sell the idea that my decision to support the government was a sellout. MR. ENNS: Call a meeting of your constituents. MR. DESJ ARDINS: Are you going to speak after or would you like to have a chance now ? -- (Interjection) -- All right.

It might be advisable at this time to address a few words that the Leader of the Opposition can read and for the members in front of us, because they seem to be quite concerned about me . The Leader says he can't imagine me as a soft-spoken backbencher ; and if by this he means he cannot see me as a rubber stamp such as we had in the backbenchers a few months ago, he is absolutely right. I don't intend to be, Mr . Speaker. The Leader has also shown concern as to my action in caucus and the difficulties that I might have with other members of the government caucus . Well, I'm deeply touched .

I'm touched by his concern, but may I suggest to him, Sir, that he can better oc cupy himself by worrying about his own political future. And when he is back on the farm , after a hard day of kicking the manure off tractor wheel s, and when he decides to rest and he sits to contemplate his neighbour the blind horse, followed by the goose, he might be well advised to forget about the New Democratic Party and the Member for St. Boniface. First of all, it would be too difficult a decision for him to arrive at to decide who reminds him of what and he would probably have to ask for a referendum .

But may I suggest to him, Sir, - and if he was here I would say, you could very well be that blind horse and the Honourable Member for River Heights could well be the goose following you . And Sir, you know what might happen if you are followed too closely by a goose .

Before trying to antagonize and defy the other members of this House, I say to those two, that of course are out of the House at this time, that you'd better decide fast who in effect will be the Leader of the Opposition, the pres ent House Leader of the Conservative Party or the business tycoon, busy turning out his daily statements from his own political office.

And Sir , they 'd better decide fast because as stated by the First Minister a few days ago, the Honourable Member from Fort Garry is sure anxious to share in the fun, and it appears even my old buddy out there, sitting in front of us, I thin k that he wants to jo in the fun also; but I hope that they will not turn this Assembly into a forum where we will hear their program for the forth coming leadership convention of the Conservative Party. I hope they will spare us this, Mr. Speaker. Now I wish Sir, that the Leader of the Opposition will spare me his concern, and my

August 25, 1969 149 (MR. DESJARDINS cont'd. ) ..•.. honourable friends. I plan, if they want to know, I plan to be just as outspoken in caucus in the future as I was in the past. I will continue to fight for what I believe is right and I will not be intimated by any of my friends from across the aisle. -- (Ihterj ection) -- I beg your pardon? MR. JAMES H. BILTON (Swan River): We won't be with you in caucus. MR. DESJARDINS: You won't ? Well, good-bye; if you're leaving, it was nice knowing you. Now they don't know what a Liberal-Democrat is. Well, I'll try to show them what is is, Mr. Speaker.

And if the First Minister wishes to repeatedly attack me in this House, it is his right. I can discuss with him in a friendly way, or slug it out with no holds barred. It's immat

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-1-8
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 1st hansardpdf 8.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	51fde13303d453b074682f725440ec826ce93f6c

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