VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. Wednesday, May 6, 1981 NO. 34 .. .. .....

May 6,1981 The House met at 3.00 p.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Tape No. 1296 AH-1 Order, please: Yesterday,with respect to the point of order raised by the hon. member for Port Au Port (Mr. Hodder) when the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) wanted to table information under Item (

e) of the daily routine business of the House,n~ ..... .3ly,'Answers t:o questions "for which notice has been given,' this was a matter which I wanted to take under some consideration. I understand that the minister had given an undertaking in the Resources Committee on the estimates of his department relating to the tabling of certain information. I would think that it is perhaps more appropriate if the information should have been tabled in that committee or given to the Clerk of that committee for distribution to the members of the committee.

And certainly we have had precedents in the past where this has occured. I can only assume that 1AnSWerS tO qUeStiOnS "fOr Which notiCe haS been given I techincally relates to the tabling of information or the answering of question~ asked orally of a minister in the House or by way of a written question placed on the Order Paper. However,the minister is certainly not precluded from making a statement on any matter in the House under 'Statements by Ministers' or is a member not precluded from asking a question either by way of notice or during Que"stion Period. ORAL QUESTIONS MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. 3622

May 6,1981 Tape No. 1296 AH-2 MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the President of the Treasury Board. In view of the recent public comments by the Teachers' Association and by the Treasury Board,would the President of the Treasury Board fill us in on what negotiations are taking place today to avoid the strike which has been threatened as a result of the government ':s not negotiating: with the teachers in good faith? MR.SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, as far as I am aware- and I have been out of my office for about, say, forty minutes or something like tha~ -as far as I am aware the last meetings that took place over the dispute between government and the teachers was on Friday last when the teachers met with the conciliation officer who has been in place for some time, the conciliation officer from the Department of Labour and Manpower,and officials in Treasury Board met with the same conciliation officer.

And at that time it is my understanding that the conciliation officer indicated to the teachers' representatives that government would be interested and indeed anxious to car.ry on further negotiations at a subsequent date. But there have not been any further meetings since Friday. Now in the meantime I think it is general knowledge that the NTA are in the process of conducting a vote in regard to the possibility of a strike.

They are not saying they are going on a strike but they are conducting a vote to get a mandate if that is the decision ultimately made,and in view of that I do not think it is to be expected, if one wants to be 3623

May 6, 1981 Tape 1297 EC - 1 DR. COLLINS: realistic and practical,it is to be expected that there would be further meetings until they completed that exercise. We have indicated - at the last meeting the conciliation officer did indicate that government is willing to discuss further at any time, but,as I say, to be realistic, I do not think it is likely that there will be discussions until the present exercise undertaken by the NTA is completed. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hen. the Mr.

Speaker, I wonder does the President of Treasury Board (Dr. Collins) realize how serious this problem really is? If I understand him, what he is saying is that he is not prepared to take any initiative. It appears to me that the Minister of Education (Ms Verge) was saying yesterday that we should be taking any steps to avoid the strike, because there is no plan in effect that they are prepared to release if a strike takes place, and she is still hopeful that a strike will not take place.

Now, will the President of Treasury Board indicate to this House what steps that you are prepared to take on your initiative before this becomes hard and fast on Friday when there is no other choice? I have heard from both sides now that you are prepared to continue to negotiate, which surely, you must realize, is your responsibility, it is the government's responsibility to take the action to avoid this strike. Now, are you prepared to tell this House of Assembly what action you are prepared to take today or tomorrow of an emergency nature to avoid the strike? MR. SPEAKER: DR.

COLLINS: The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition asked me if I was aware of the seriousness 3624 , .

Hay 6, 1981 Tape 1297 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: of this situation. I will put that question down to his being a novice in this Rouse and having no familiarity with the operation of government, but I will nevertheless answer it. I wi~l say that I am very conscious of the serious·ness of the present situation, I am very conscious of my duties, I am very conscious of ~Y obligations and I will just leave it at that. With regard to initiatives, the conciliation process is the essential process here and last evening discussions were held with the - last afternoon,.

I am sorry, not last evening, yesterday anyway, sometime yesterday, ~iscussions were held between officials in Tr.easury Board and the Deputy Minister of Labour and Manpower as to the practicality of making some ne.w move, and,as I have mentioned already, the practicality is that until. NT'A are finishec;l their exercise they are not likely to respond to any new initiative. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. 3625

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1298 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms )1• : The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I was just wondering who I will ask this question to because unlike the situation with the workers at the College of Trades and Technology when they were on strike 1 with the teachers we have three ministers concerned, two directly, the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) and the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) 1

whereas, as I said.with the support staff of the College of Trades and " Technology we simply had the President of the Treasury Board (Dr. Collins) and the Minister of Labour and Manpower. But I will put my question to the Minister of Labour and Manpower and find out, Mr. Speaker, if the minister can tell us what his position has been with respect to the teachers' strike to this point in time. Is the minister doing anything 1 being it is his job to bring parties together, and being the mediator or the conciliator?

So I wonder what action the Minister of Labour and Manpower has taken to this point in time to avert this strike action? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member will be happy to know that every possible step that could possibly be taken by the Department of Labour and Manpower and the Minister of Labour and Manpower has been taken. In other words, the process, as I have explained to the hon. member many tirnes,has been gone through in that the teachers were granted a conciliation board, the board reported,the I teachers rejected the majority report.

There was a majority and a minority report. The teachers rejected the majority report and they carne back to meetings at the negotiating table. They spoke -I believe between the acceptance and rejection vote there were about seven days in between that period and when they went on their convention. And on Wednesday night, the Wednesday before Good Friday,negotiations were broken off 3626

May 6, 1981 Tape No . 1298 so - 2 MR. DINN : at basically the request of the teachers because they wanted to prepare for their convention . They went to their convention and immediately upon returning from the i r convention t hey were contacted by the Departmen; of Labour and Manpower- There were separate negotiations with Treasury Board and with the negotiating committee for the NTA. Last week, I believe last Thursday - I could be corrected , it may have bee n Wednesday night or it may have been early Friday morni ng - contact was made with the NTA and they indicated at that time their decision to take a strike vote and that there was not much sense 3627 ,.

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1299 EL - 1 MR. DINN: at that point in time to continue negotiations,that they had quite a bit of work to perform,~nd they indicated also to us that when the strike vote was con­ cluded that they would be willing to sit down at the table and negotiate again and we informed them at that time that we would be ready, willing at any time that they chose to sit down at the table with them and, of course, set up meetings with Treasury Board if the need arose. MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : for Terra Nova. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon, member MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, the minister simply describes the process that would take place regardless if the minister were here or he were in Timbuktu. What I have asked the minister is as a result :>f the seriousness of this sit- uation, a teachers' strike in this Province,and something that we have never had before because we have never really had a teachers' strike in this Province before, not in the strict sense of the word, so in view of the seriousness of this situation, the question was what specific steps the min­ ister has taken since we have known that the conciliation board offer was rejected? Well, Mr.

Speaker, the minister might get a chance to address that question again· I will give him that opportunity to tell the people of Newfoundland and to tell the teachers of Newfoundland just specifically what he has done 9utside of these normal developments that would take place if he were not around at all with respect to the collective bar­ gaining process. What I would like for the minister to tell hon. members now is with respect to the offer of 9 per cent which the teachers have rejected, was this the initial offer made by the government or was not an offer made by the govern­ ment at all? 3628

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1299 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The han. the Minister of Labour and Manp9wer. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, the han. member went through quite a process there. First of all, he said there was no strike in Newfoundland before of teachers. The han. member obyiously is not aware that there was a strike in 1970. MR. LUSH: That was not a strike. (Inaudible). MR. DINN: It was a rotating strike. It was a strike in terms of anyone who withdraws their service and Mr.

Speaker, the reason they went on strike at that point in time was that they did not have the process that they have right now of of negotiating,they had absolutely no oollective bargaining rights at all ~r ~h~r ri~. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.DINN: Han. members-and the han. member for LaPoile (S. Neary) was in the Cabinet at the time-would not offer them or would not give them or would not allow them to negotiate. MR. LUSH: What (inaudible). MR. DINN: And not only that, Mr.

Speaker, but they were cajoled, they were sucked into going back to work and when they went back to work they got exactly the same offer as government had offered in the beginning. So, Mr. Speaker, the process now is a little bit different. The NTA now has a collective bargaining process which they go through and which they have gone through successfully since 3629

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1300 DW - 1 MR. J. DINN: / 1972, Mr. Speaker, and which they will go through successfully this time contrary to what the hon. member hopes. Now, Mr. Speaker, with respect to what steps! As I indicated to the hon. member, every step that is possible in labour relations has been taken with respect to the teachers' negotiations and with respect to what the Department of Labour and Manpower or the minister of that department could do. There is no other minister who could do any more in the situation. A conciliation board was provided. They got every step in the negotiating process.

Every single step that was requested they got, Mr. Speaker, every single step~ MR. LUSH: No, no, I deny that. MR. J. DINN: And with respect to offers, offers were made by both sides at an independent concilia­ tion board and that board made a report. The fact that they did not accept that report is their right. They have the right to accept or reject, they have the right to strike if they wish. That is a right that was given to them by legislation by a Tory administration of which I am proud. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. member for LaPoile.

Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power). I wonder would the minister tell the House what happens in the case of somebody building a summer cottage or a summer home in a wilderness area? " SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ 3630

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1300 DW - 2 MR. S. NEARY: If somebody built a home, a summer home, a summer cottage in a wilderness area,what would be the procedure in getting that - would it be allowed to stay in the wilderness area or would it have to be removed from the wilder­ ness area? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): and Lands. MR. C. POWER: The hon. Minister of Forest Resources Mr. Speaker, I assume the member when he says .',_wilderness area', means a remote area.

There is only one designated wilderness area in the Province right now and that is the Avalon wilderness area and no cabins are permitted in the Avalon wilderness area. We do have a policy that was introduced last year for remote cottages as opposed to cottages or cottage sites that are accessible by road.

In order to get a remote cottage,you would have to go to the Department of Forest Resources and Lands, apply at the nearest office for a remote cottage~ our department would then take that application and refer it out to two or three departments, particularly Mines and Energy to see if therewere any mineral problems in the area or mineral potential, particularly W·ildlife to see if there were any wildlife problems in that area and,I guess,the Department of Environment and, of course, our own Department of Forest Resources and Lands.

After those referrals come back to the Department of Crown Lands 1 then we wouldmake a decision as to whether or not the permit is approved. If it is to be approved there are two options: 3631 ...... i."

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1301 NM - 1 MR. POWER: If the person does not want to go through the expense of a survey,then we can give a permit to occupy for five years which saves that resident the cost of an expensive survey, especially if it is in a really remote area. If the person wishes to get a lease for fifty years 1 then he has to get a survey done and he can go that route. MR . NEARY: A supp i ementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: A supplementary, the hon. member Would the hon. gentleman care to inform the House if in these remote areas that he is talking about, if, since the regulations have come into effect, people indeed were asked to remove their Summer cottages or their cabins from these areas? Could the hon . gentleman give us some idea if this has happened and how many times has it happened? MR. SPEAKER: Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: The hon. Minister of Forest, Mr.

Speaker, what I just explained was the correct, legitimate proced~re, the legal procedure for getting a cottage lot whetter it be remote or otherwise.If a person illegally occupies Crown land, whether it b~ in an area of remote­ ness or an area that is accessible, that is still against the laws of this Province,to occupy Crown land illegally.

If in such a case that is done, and in the case of remote cottages then that cabin very likely would be posted with a notification that gives the person I believe thirty or sixty days to come back to the department 1 and if that person has not any right to that piece of property then it might be quite possible the case would go to court and a judge would ask for removal of that cabin from that site. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, the hon. 3632 .~

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1301 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: Would the hon. minister inform the House if to his knowledge a helicopter was used at any time to lift a Summer cottage or a cabin from one area to another, and if the hon. gentleman has knowledge of that would he provide the House with the information? MR. SPEAKER: Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: The hon. Minister of Forest Mr. Speaker, I have no knowledge of that happening, a Summer cottage being removed by helicopter. If it has I will certainly get the information, I will check with my department, but I do not know anything about it. MR. SPEAKER: The Capes. MR.

HANCOCK: The hon. member for St. Mary's- Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HANCOCK: I would like to know if or w·hen or vThen will the applications for big game licences be sent out this year? MR. SPEAKER: Recreation and Youth. MR. ANDREl"lS: The hon. Minister of Culture, Mr. Speaker, the applications should be in the mail, I would say1 by the end of next week, which would be approximately ten days. That is my information. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for St. Mary's - The Capes.

MR. HANCOCK: Could the minister indicate whether the price of big game licences has · increased this year or are they the same as last year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. 3633 .·

May 6 , 1981 Tape No. 1301 MR. ANDREWS: There will be no increase in the price of big game licences, $25 for moose and caribou . MR. STAGG: Very disappointed Very disappointed. M·R. SPEAKER: SOME KON. MEMBERS~ MR. CALLAN: The hon. member for Bellevue . Hear , hear! Mr . Speaker, I think it is - NM - 3 I want to ask a supplementa .ry to the same minister - I think it is a known fact that the draw system and the rules and regulations surrounding big game licences haVl!' contributed to a fair amount of poaching in recent years , I want t o ask the minister, are there any individual licences issued this year or are they party licences , two, and thre ·e and £our? 3634 ·~ .. ~.

May 6, 1981 MR. SPEAKER lSilnmsl: Recreation and Youth. MR. ANDREWS : Tape 1302 EC - 1 The hon. the Minister of Culture, Mr. Speaker, that is rather a complex question to answer because there is a computer involved, but basically it is my understanding that a higher priority goes to party licences. In other words, if two people apply for one licence, they would have a higher priority in receiving a particular licence in a particular area, the reason for that being that it is nQt the killing of the game that we consid~~ the sport, it is the hunting and the hunting experience.

So a party licence of two or three has a higher priority than the single applicant, but a single applicant could still get a licence in an area where there would not be enough applicants on a party basis. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the same minister, can he tell us how many qualified hunters or licenced hunters there are who have passed the hunter capability testing programme?

How many hunters are there in the Province at the present time for this season and how many big game licences will be issued this year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. ANDREWS: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take that question under advisement and get the information for the member. MR. H·ISCOCK: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for Eagle River. My question is to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development and I will try not to be too aggressive. AN HON. MEMBER: linaudihlel 1nore aggressive than anyone. 3635

May 6, 19.81 Tape 1302 EC - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HISCOCK: My question to the minister is the Newfoundland and Labrador Sheep Breeders Association had their annual meeting last night; they are a little bit upset by the decline in breeding of sheep in this Province which has dropped d.ramatj,cally. There are several reasons for this. One is the government taking the pasture land in this Province and turning it over to private enterprise. As a result, this has led to a drop.

Could the minister inform us whether his government now after a year has reassessed this programme of community pastures and are going to reinstate them as government-owned and operated? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: No, Mr. Speaker. We have been monitoring the pasture programme since it was turned over to private enterprise last year, private operation. There has been no difficulty with the programme that I am aware of.

Grants have been provided last year and will be again this year, equipment has been provided, and the only discussion that I was involved in in relation to pastures within any particular area was in the Victoria/Carbonear area and that was the only one that I am aware of that has had any difficulty with it, and that had to do with municipal boundaries as opposed to the actual operation of the pasture. MR. HISCOCK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the member for Eagle River. MR.

HISCOCK: Then I suggest that the Sheep Breeders Association then really do not know what they are talking about, and seeing they are into the business, I would assume that they do know. The other problem with the Sheep Breeders Association is that the government 3636 .._., ~

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1303 SD - 1 MR. HISCOCK: is denying veterinarian services to them and also use of the abattoir in Pleasantville. Could the minister inform us in this House if these two services are going to be re-instated and given to the Sheep Breeders Association? MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms): The han. minister. MR. GOUDIE: "'1r. Speaker, I am not aware of any denial of veterinarian services to any particular part of the agricultural industry. We do have one difficulty with ~icultural services but that is with veterinary services in this Province in that we do not have enough of them.

We have a great deal of difficulty recruiting veterinarians for work in this Province. That is one aspect of it. The abattoir in St. John's has been geared to handle hogs and to handle poultry and that has been the extent of it so far. And I might also add, Mr. Speaker, that the Sheep Breeders Association has not approached me with any of these concerns before. They may have gone through the regular channels and discussed these concerns with staff in the department, but it has certainly nat been brought to my attention at this paint in time. If they wish to do that then my door is always open. MR.

HISCOCK: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member far Eagle River,fallawed by the hon. member far Terra Nova (~r. Lush). MR. HISCOCK: With reqard to the Sheep Breeders Association in this Pravince,being a Province very, very dependent upon food from outside, and that one of the few livestock that does prosper in this Province is sheep and has been an historical animal of our Province, does this Province have any programme to aid the Sheep breeders Association in particular with regard to all the federal money that is coming into the Province- 3637 ..

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1303 so - 2 MR. HISCOCK: if it was not for the federal government with rural development, agriculture, particularly agriculture,then there would be no Department of Agriculture. Does the department and does the minister have any special programme in place or is he contemplating bringing one in toplace to help the Sheep Breeders Association? c ·i ~·~ . SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Minister of Rural Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I think it is completely inaccurate to suggest - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

GOUDIE: - there would not be an agricultural industry in this Province were it not for the federal government. We are working under a five year agreement now1 approximately three years of it having expired , cost shared between DREE and the provincial government. MR. HISCOCK: (Inaudible) Province. MR. GOUDIE: I said cost shared, Mr. Speaker, I did not give the ratio. The other aspect of it is that, generally speaking,the Island part of the Province is quite suitable to the raising of sheep.

One of the traditional problems that sheep breeders and sheep farmers have had in this Province over the years has been the difficulty with dogs, roaming dogs in particular, and other wild animals. We do have an excellent insurance plan in place to assist sheep farmers, sheep breeders in the Province to cover them in the event of death and I think the two television stations in the Province did some fairly accurate reporting last year and years before on damage which . occurs to sheep destroyed by dogs and other animals. So there are a number of pro grammes, 3638 ·--=· .

May 6, 1981, Tape 1304, Page 1 -- apb MR. GOUDIE: yes, available to sheep breeders. I have dealt with them in the years that I have been responsible as Minister of Agriculture, and we continue to work with them every day. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: same minister, Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for A supplmentary to the I have spoken to several of the operators of those pasture lands over the last year and they have not worked out as well because there has not been enough money to operate the pasture lands the way they should be operated.

I would ask the minister at this time does he anticipate seeing an increase to the operators of these pasture lands this coming year? MR. SPEAKER: I The hon. minister. MR, GOUDIE: No, Mr, Speaker, there is no plan right now to increase the rates. As I have said before, I am more than happy to meet with any of the groups that have a concern about the operati.on of the pastures, the groups operating them, to discuss rates· or to discuss anything else. But as I said, the only representation made to me, other than one private discussi.on I have had wi.th the hon. member who just asked the questi.on, was from the.

Victoria - Carbonear area and that has been the extent of it. The staff of th.e department have been monitoring the programme on paper. It has been brought to my attention that everything is operating satisfactorily. There had been some difficulty with gaining equipment, or adequate equipment to deal wi.th 3639 . ~·

May 6, 1981, Tape 1304, Page 2 -- apb MR. GOUDIE: some of th.e pastures throughout the Province, and some pasture areas want to have their boundaries expanded, but these are the only problems that have been brought to my attention, certainly no question of insufficient rates. MR. HANCOCK: A final supplementary, please. MR. SPEAKER(Sirnrns l : A final supplementary . The hon. the member for St. Mary~s- - The Capes. MR.

HANCOCK: Yes, there were several pasture lands last year that no suitable proposal was: received on, or the minister felt that the proposal received was too high or whatever, but I am wondering at this time will there be proposals put in on those pas _ture lands this y ear and will the government be looking for people to operate the pasture lands that were not operated last year? And I have two in my own district that were not, there was no suitable proposal received on them last year. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, we have no additional plans this year to open up extra pastures.

Pastures last year which either were not applied for, or in the case where applicati .ons came in and were unsuitable - MR. THOMS: Larnaline too, MR. GOUDIE: Well, there . were s·everal areas, Larnaline being one of them, I suppose. I cannot remember the names of the thirty-five or thirty-six pastures that exist in the Province - have been disposed of -not disposed of - have been used in other ways and government is not considering at thLs point in time opering up any addi .ti.onal pas.tures, or taking any further action on pastures which had not been utilized last year. 3640

May 6, 1981, Tape 1304, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) yields to the hon. the member for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: Mr. Speaker. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary, Just because there was not a suitable proposal received last year does not mean there cannot be one this year, Mr. Speakef. I know on the Cape Shore, in particular, there are a lot of sheep and horses and whatever roaming at large and·it is ridiculous to go over there. I was over there a couple of weeks ago - SOME HON . MEMBERS : Baa. MR.

HANCOCK: Yes, all you can hear is 'baa'. -and you have to dodge those sheep on the highway to get through the settlement. Mr. Speaker, it is not good enough. The people in the communities are complaining about it. I would ask the minister at this time to look at seeing if this pasture land can be tendered on again this year and someone run the pasture land the way it should be operated. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. 3641

May 6, 1981 Tape NO. 1305 EL - 1 MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, what I would suggest, since there is one particular area of the Province under ques­ tion here,is that the hon. member and I sit down and discuss this privately and perhaps I can get some names from him and then see what we will do from there. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER{Si~~s); tains. The hon. member for Torngat Moun- MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Develop- ment.

Back on December 31st, the minister announced that the craft shop in Goose Bay would be closed to the public and he also made an announcement shortly thereafter that it would open in a short period of time. Since that time we have had practically four months gone past and the craft shop is still closed. Can the minister advise when and if that craft shop will reopen? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister. MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, we indicated that as of the first of January the craft shop would close down. In actual fact, the whole operation did not close down.

Craft shop outlets in the various parts of Labrador were still able to take advantage of ordering, at wholesale prices, materials for use in various coastal communities. We also indicated when we closed down the shop the first of January that the review process, the assessment of application, reviewing of these applications, submissions to government and so on, would take a certain period of time or number of weeks to implement. Just prior to the Easter break of the House, we received a report from the Northern Development division centre in the Happy Valley - Goose Bay area. A number of proposals have been 3642

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1305 EL - 2 MR. GOUDIE: received. They have now been analyzed by the department and the department will be making recommendations within the next week or two to government at which time government will make its decision. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has expired. I would like to welcome to the Gall­ eries today,on behalf of all hon. members,forty-five girls and ~uiders from the 7lst and 72nd St. John's Girl Guide Companies. We hope they enjoy their visit. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: MR.

STAGG: The hon. member for Stephenville. Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to report that the Government Services Committee on the estimates - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Speak up. MR. STAGG: Not enough volume? Well, Mr. Speaker, I will.1 start again. It gives me great pleasure to report that the Govern­ ment Services Committee on the estimates which had referred to its five departments, Head lV,Finance, Head V, Public Works and Services, Head Xl, Transportation, Head XlV,Labour and Man­ power,Head XVll,Municipal Affairs,have considered all these departments and nas passed them without amendment.

Members of the committee · are the member for Terra Nova (T. Lush), the member for Kilbride (B.Aylward) 1 the member for Con- ception Bay South (J.Butt), the member for Bay of Islands (L.Woodrow), the member for Carbonear (R. Moores) was a member of the committee but did not attend any meetings,- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 3643

May 6, 1981 Tape No . 1305 EL - 3 MR. STAGG: the member for Eagle River (E. Hiscock) attended meetings, and myself, the member for Stephenville. We will sit again on the next estimates, 1982-83. MR. HODDER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: A point of order, the hon. member It is my understanding - I do not have the exact reference here -thata member is not supposed to cast reflections on the presence or abscence of a member in this chamber and that, Mr. Speaker, would be carried, I think 1 to the committees as well. MR. MARSHALL: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker . 3644

.. May 6,1981 Tape No. 1306 AH-1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. House Leader. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member was not casting reflections on anyone. The hon. gentleman was just merely stating a fact, that was all, and/or his opinion. AN HON. MEMBER: He had to give an honest report. MR. MOORES: To the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order. The hon. member ror Carbonear. MR. MOORES: It seems, Mr. Speaker, that I seem to be the object and the substance of this matter.I would prefer that the matter drop.

I can account for my '1-Thereabouts and I am sure that my electorate will account for it in a few years. Thank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: With respect to the point of order,I rule that there is no point of order but a difference of opinion. MR. SPEAKER: Manpower. MR. DINN: ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS The hon. Minister of Labour and Mr. Speaker, this is in answer to Question No. 57 asked by the bon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) on the Order Paper dated May 4,1981. How many Newfoundlanders are currently employed on offshore oil drilling rigs?

Give the total number of Newfoundlanders hired by offshore oil rigs since January 1,1978 •. Answer: Employed directly with the drilling contractors - total 422, Newfoundlanders, 263 1 that is at the present time now, which is sixty-two per cent 1 and employed directly with service contractors total 506, Newfoundlanders 351 for a total of sixty-nine per cent. Total employment 1 928 at the present time,and 3645 .-. r:

May 6,1981 Tape No. 1306 AH-2 MR. DINN: 614 of them are Newfo~ndlanders, which is sixty-six per cent. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DINN: In 1978,before the regulations came in-record keeping and monitoring of rig employment figures began in 1979 so we do not really have the figures for 1978,but we do know that there were two rigs out there and we have no knowledge of any Newfoundlanders being on them. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame. MR. DINN: And prior years, of course, we had the same sort of a deal.

In 1979 Newfoundlanders directly employed on rigs 420, Newfoundlanders directly employed by service contractors·302,for a total of 722 1 and that varied. In 1980 1 Newfoundlanders directly employed on rigs,total- by the way 1there were 1,300 on the rigs, 783 were Newfoundlanders,which is sixty per cent, Newfoundlanders directly employed by service contract.ors 231 and 93 were Newfoundlanders for forty per cent, total employment 1,531; Newfoundlanders 876 which is fifty-seven per cent.

And we did not count the rig, I believe it wassedco 709 1 which would bring the figure up to over 900 jobs last year as was reported earlier. As of March, 1981 the total number working on the rigs was 422tNewfoundlanders 263 for sixty-three per cent. Newfoundlanders directly employed in service contracts 506, 351 Newfoundlanders, sixty -nine per cent in total employment 66. Total employment from 1978 to present-and as I said we did not have the figures for 1978 so we are talking about 1979 and 1980- 2,212 positions.

Some of these positions reflect rehires from year to yea~ of course,but as I indicated at the present time 1 614 Newfoundlanders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 3646 .-.,..

May 6,1981 Tape No. 1306 AH-3 MR. SPEAKER (Simms): table see this is tabled. Would one of the clerks at the The hon. President of the Council . MR. MARSHALL: ?-1r. Speaker, I have a further answer to the question posed by the hon. member for Lewisporte (Mr . ,Whi tel yesterday 3647

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1307 DW - 1 MR. W. MARSHALL: with respect to the Devine Advertising Company and the observations of the Public Accounts Committee because I think it is very important that I respond to this. The hon. gentleman asked a question yesterday as to whether or not I was aware that a report had been filed apparently by the RCMP six months prior to this, that this was the information that he had gotten. Subsequently, although the hon. member for Lewis porte (l-ir. White) did not cast directly any imputation, in his debate yesterday the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.

Roberts) 1 in saying that he did not know whether or not-he presumed there was not a cover-up,. gave the imp-ression by those statements that perhaps there might have been a cover-up. So I just want to respond further to that because I have further inquired \>lith respect to the matter and I have to report to the House that the informction gained by the hen. member for Lewisporte, I do not know where he got it 1but it was erroneous in that the report was filed some six months ago. It was not filed six months. The situation was that this report has been filed.

It was reviewed,as is customary in matters of this nature, and further information was required, further information was sought from the RCMP,and that information is now in the process of being done. The department is awaiting the final report and the final report has to be received, of course, because both reports have to be received together. And I might also inform the House that this is not by any means an unusual procedure. The Public Prosecution Office often, very, very often - AN HON. MEMBER: What was the date? 3648

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1307 DW - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: The exact date I cannot give you but my information is that the date when the first report was filed was within about two months and it was reviewed - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. W. MARSHALL: Yes. And it \'las further reviewed and another report was asked for. Now the reason why I give this is that this is not unusual, as I say, this is a procedure that is done, and I want to do it because I do not think that - I know the hon. member for Lewisporte (Mr.

White) would not wish it because when you make allegations of - not his allegation butthat of the member for the Strait of Belle Isle(Mr. Roberts) - it becomes rather unfortunate because it gives the appearance then that the Department of Justice in these matters is not completely aboveboard. I can give the assurance to this House, Mr. Speaker, that what has happened is normal and usual, that the report,when it is received,will be dealt with and it will be dealt with, Mr. Speaker, in a way that is completely away from political considerations.

People concerned will not be prosecuted purely for political expediency nor,if there are grounds for it,will prosecu­ tion not be laid for any political reasons. So I want to do it because I think it is most unfair, Mr. Speaker, that a slur of this nature, however unintentional,may be cast. And I want to assure this House that this government has not been in the past, is not now and will not in the future be in the habit of being parties to any cover-ups. And the Department of Justice as administered in this Province, Mr.

Speaker, is on an impartial and unbiased and reason­ able basis as any Province of Canada. 3649

May 6, 19.81 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. HOUSE: MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: Tape 130.8 EC - 1 Further answers to questions? Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Health. On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised by the han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Mr.

Speaker, this is a very serious matter and the expression •slurs 1 by the member who is not in his seat and cannot respond, slurs that were intended - I think he went out of his way yesterday not to cast any slurs and I think in the interest of clearing this up for the House, the information which the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) has now given is really only going to add to the confusion. We now apparently have two reports and I would ask - MR. CARTER: What is the point of order? MR. STIRLING: The ?Oint of order, Mr.

Speaker - I am making the point of order - is that the President of the Council accused the member, who is not in his seat, the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) of casting a slur, and he went out of his way not to do that. And the minister has not added anything other than'about two months ago~ which is denying the RCMP information of six months ago - he has not given us the precise dates that the thing came in,and he has not given us the precise date when additional information was asked for. And rather than clear up the confusion, he has left confusion.

And I would ask him to withdraw any comment that the member for the Straits implied any slur. He has only added to the confusion and I am afraid if we just let the matter go, Mr. Speaker, that we cannot let that statement stand that the ~ember for this side intended any slur. So I would ask the President of the Council to withdraw that remark and be specific and give us the information. MR. SPEAKER: Well, with respect to the information, that is not a point of order. With respect to the words 3650

·May 6, 1981 Tape 1308 EC - 2 .MR. SPEAKER (.Sinun s) : presumably used by the President of the council (Mr. Marshall), ·I have no idea whether or not there was any imputation there contained in those remarks because I will have to see what the full context of the remar~s are and I will have a look at Hansard and rule on it at a later time. MR. HOUSE: Further answers to questions? The hon. the Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, I have the answer to question seven as asked by the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and I herewith table it. That is the one on the abortions and hysteronomies. MR. SPEAKER: MR.

NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. Furt.her answers to questions? On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. On a point of order, the hon. the MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie) promised the aouse that he would bring in information on agricultural limestone at yesterday's session. I let it go yesterday and he has :not brought it in today, and I would like to find out if there is any particular reason why he has not brought that contract with Mr. Maynard into the House? MR. SPEAKER: I would have to rule there is no point of order. 3651

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1309 NM - 1 PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms)_: The hon. member for Lewisporte. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to present a petition on behalf of 244 people in the town of Horwood, in the district of Lewisporte. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR.

WHITE: And the petition reads as follows, the prayer, "We, the undersigned, being users of the public highway that runs from Southwest Arm in Horwood," not Southwest Arm in Bellevue district, "to Two Mile Point in the community of I Horwood, and the public highroad which runs from Rogers Cove to Homes Cove, wish to express our concern and displeasure over the deplorable condition of both portions of highroad. These roads have been neglected for too long, eighteen years, by the government.

We, the undersigned, are of the opinion that our tax dollars should be spent on improvements of those roads instead of other unnecessary government projects." I would agree with them,of course. "The roads are in such poor condition that it is not worth the danger to our safety to drive over them except for emergencies. Every time a vehicle goes over the roads the owners face the risk of hundreds of dollars damages or the risk of destroying his or her vehicle. It is deplorable that the roads have been allowed to deteriorate to such an extent.

At least with the previous Liberal Government we could have looked forward to the possibility of election pavement, such as it was .1' "The time for action is now. We are not second class citizens so why should we be treated as such." Mr. Speaker, I would like to support this petition on behalf of the people of Horwood. For too long now the road in that community, leading from that community to the main road in Gander Bay 1 has indeed been neglected. The people 3652 ...

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1309 NM - 2 MR. WHITE: there perhaps have been a little silent in the past but I can guarantee you that they intend to be more vocal in the future about this road. The main road from Rogers Cove to Homes Cove is on the Gander Bay Highway and the member for Gander (Mrs. Newhook) knows what I am saying, when there is a great deal of pressure on to get this road upgraded and paved.

Soon, maybe soon, the Fogo ferry will be diverted to Farewell, maybe, and that will put additional pressures, additional traffic on that main road and I do call upon the government, on behalf of the people of Horwood, to include in their programme this year the up­ grading and paving of the Horwood Road, as well as the Rogers Cove to Homes Cove Road. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition to the petition. MR. STIRLING: I was hesitating because I assumed that somebody from the other side would certainly want to support that petition. There is a need to do something about dirt roads.

I am pleased to support the petition so ably presented by my colleague. It is not the first time that petitions of this sort have been presented. All over this Province, Mr. Speaker, all over this Province people living on dirt roads have just been not treated properly, not .only in this district but every other district where there are dirt roads.

The last incident that we had was in the district of Bellevue, where people were promised action on dirt roads and yet when the budget comes down there is no promise, no indication that money is now going to be spent to do the kind of job that needs to be done all over this Province. And it is just a further indication, Mr. Speaker, a further in­ dication of the frustrations that people all over the Province are feeling because this government 3653 .-.•

May 6, 1981, Tape 1310, Page l -- apb MR. STIRLING: is just not managing our economy, just not developing the extra incomce that we need, and are just sitting on their hands and hoping that something is going to happen, that suddenly we will become rich. Well, Mr. Speaker, it is not good enough. These people are not being treated properly, the people in Horwood deserve better treatment, the people on d·irt roads throughout this Province . have just been ignored by this government. It has absolutely no priority in their thinking, they are not concerned with people issues at all.

If it does not have the taste or scent of oil, not a nickle is being spent. And the money that was used to subsidize CN, just a fraction of that money could have been used to upgrade this road and pave this road as is required on dirt roads all over this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, I would hope, and I think it is significant that we do not have a minister left -yes, two ministers, two ministers out of the seventeen - in the House during a petition being presented in this House on behalf of people in vari .ous parts of this Province. It is an insult to the people, and it is an insult to this House of Assembly, Mr.

Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR. SPEAKER {_Simms l : Further peti .tions? MR. WOODROW: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Is this to the same petition, the hen. member? MR. WOODROW: A new· petition, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A new petition, the . hon. - MR. HODDER: A point of order, Mr .. Speaker. 3654 ,.

May 6, 1981, Tape 1304, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER (.Sinuns) : A point of order has- been raised by the hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, something concerns me and I want to bring it to the attention of the House. I want to refer to Beauchesne, Page 103,

section 316 (c). No.w, the hon. member for Stephenville (Mr. Stagg) on a number of occasions in this House has referred to the absence of specific members of the House. Now, this particular

section says: '~Besides the prohibitions contained in s.o. 35, it has been sancti .oned by usage that a Member, while speaking, must not refer to the presence or absence of specific Members n· . Now, Mr. Speaker, I brought that point up here in the House. I was ruled against, Mr. Speaker, that there was no point of order 1 But I contend th.ere was a point of order and I think it was a very serious one. Because if this is allowed to happen, then the hon. member, any member that goes to his district for a meeting, or goes anywhere else for a meeting, Mr.

Speaker, or has any public business to do in his district, well, can have his name smeared and have slurs put upon hi.s prese .nce or absence by members opposite, and the member for Stephenville has done that on a number of occasions. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ' A breach of order has to be raised at the time at which. it has occurred, and MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: with and ruled on. MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: I did, Mr. Speaker. Yes, and it was dealt Well, from now on - If hon. members do not agre .e with a ruling, as you obviously are aware, there 3655

May 6, 1981 , Tape ~3l0, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Simms): is a procedure that can be followed. But the Chair is called upon to act in the interest of the House, to rule on points of order as they are raised. I ruled on that parti.cular point of order . So this is not a point of order at this pt<>int. MR. WOODROW: Mr . Speaker . 36 56

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1311 SD - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. WOODROW: The hon. member for the Bay of Islands. Mr. Speaker, I have a petition. I would like first of all to read the prayer of the petition: 'We, the undersigned, support the efforts of the Western Newfoundland Historic Trust to have the Brake's property which is located in Meadows, Bay of Islands, restored and designated by the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador.' Mr. Speaker, this is a continuation of a petition I presented earlier in the House and on that petition we had 226 names. We have today on this petition, Mr.

Speaker, 307 names making a total of 533 names. Mr. Speaker, since I presented the petition, I made another visit to the property in question and I must say that although the property is dilapidated, it certainly opened my eyes as to what our past has been. And this property, if restored, Mr. Speaker, will give young Canadians an idea of what mode of living our forefathers had to go through and hopefully give them an appreciation of what they have now. I would also like to state, Mr. Speaker, that I have talked with the present Minister of Recreation and Culture and Youth (~1r.

Andrews) on this and I feel sure he will give this matter his full consideration. In the meantime, Mr. Speaker, I have another letter here which I want to read into the record concerning the Brake property. And the letter is sent to Mr. Michel Lavaseur: 'Dear Mr. Lavaseur: I have reviewed your Canada Community Development Project application relating to the proposed restoration of the Brake property in Meadows and I am pleased to offer my support for this worthwhile project.

Since the Brake property is the last mercantile premises of its kind left in the Bay of Islands area, 'it is well worth pre~g and should prove to be a worthwhile educational experience to those visiting the site as well as an interesting tourist attraction for the region in general.' 3657

May 6, 1981 Tape No . 1311 so - 2 MR . WOODROW: 'Good luck with your application and please keep me informed of your progress . ' And this letter, Mr. Speaker, is signed by the former Minister of Recreation, Culture and Youth, the han. Ron Da~~e. Mr.

Speaker, even after this property is bought it is ·going to take a lot of cash to restore it and the people concerned, those of us who are trying to get it restored, we hope to get things like Can.ada Works grants and ~~hat ever other means of money ~~e have at our disposal , so I hope that 1-1e will be able to get a start on the restoration of this prope .rty, in fact, this present year . MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : M.R. SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr . Spe.aker. Further petitions .

ORDERS OF ~HE DAY This being Private Members ' Day and according to Standing Order 53 1 I now call Motion No. 6 moved by the hon. member for Bay Verte - White Bay: · The hon. member for Baie Verte - White Bay. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear . 3658 ..

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1312 EL - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I actually ended up with two sets of notes for introducing this motion today. I had a set of notes ready yesterday but of course I had to reconsider and make another ,set of notes today as a result of some of the utterances and statements made in this Province yesterday by the Prime Minister of Canada. Part of the original notes that I had made, Mr.

Speaker, before I heard the words of the Prime Minister,were that I though that this resolution, as it appears on the Order paper, should be a resolution that could easily re­ ceive the unanimous agreement of this House. I do not believe, I do not think that anybody can say that there was anything political in the resolution in any of the Whereases, in the body of the resolution. I do not believe that anybody could say that the resolution actually took a political swipe at any particular person or party. The resolution, as it appears on the Order ~aper, Mr. Speaker, I believe is simply a statement of fact.

There can be no disagreement with the facts,I do not think, as they are stated in the resolution on the Order raper. The resolution, as it appears on the 6rder ~aper 1 does not con­ demn anybody. Some might say that is wrong, it probably should, but I do not think the resolution, as it appears on the Order ~aper,condemns anybody. The resolution, I believe the way that I have drafted it, is a conciliatory resol- ution. It is conciliatory in tone and I believe it is concil­ iatory in the structure. The resolution I do not think contains any confrontation.

I do not think the re- solution contains any Fed bashing, which has been a very common phrase in this Province lately. The resolution contains no name 3659 .~

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1312 EL - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: calling, it contains Done of those things but yet, I believe it is fair to say, Mr. Speaker, that the resolution has some guts to it, tt has some resolve to it. I believe it is based on justice, the resolution is based on a perception of equality. The resolution is based a perception of sharing ,so I do not l:lel-ieve that it can be said that the re­ solution condemns anybody or is very political in tone or struct~ ure or anything of that nature. I believe, Mr.

Speaker, it is app­ ropriate that we look at all the clauses of the resolution be­ cause the debate hopefully will center around all of them and the first clause, "WHEREAS the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador has a moral and legal claim to the minerals on the 6ontinental Shelf", it ism~ understanding, and we will know more as the debate goes on,but . it is my understainding that there is no disagreement on that in this House at this part­ icular time. The second clause, "AND

WHEREAS the Federal Government does not recognize our claim", now, Speaker, surely there can be no disagreement with that. Every­ body knows that•·.the present Federal Government does not re­ cognize our claim to those resources, to those minerals. 3660 . .

May 6,1981 Tape No. 1313 AH-1 MR.RIDEOUT: ''WHEREAS the Province has the regulations and expertise necessary for the wise development of such offshore minerals"-T suppose there can be some debate on that ,whether the Province has the expertise available and the proper regulations in place,but I believe that by and large most people would agree that that is a reasonable statement. ''WHEREAS the Hibernia oil and gas fields can have significant negative impact on our society and our environment" - I do not believe there can be any disagreement from anybody in this House on that particular statement.

I think all of us at one time or another,either here in the House-or before committees only last week when we were dealing with the Department of Mines and Energy-there was a lot of concern expressed by members on both sides of the House with the possible negative impact of that kind of development,so I do not believe there can be any disagreement on that. "WHEREAS the Province needs revenues and jobs from offshore oil and gas to better our society' 1 -I do not believe there can be any - AN .HON .MEMBER: (inaudible) MR.

RIDEOUT: I do not particularly like Well the resolution says that there could be negative impact and I said, Mr. Speaker, I do not believe there is any disagreement on th~t; it was certainly expressed in committee only last week. "AND

WHEREAS the Province needs revenues and jobs from offshore oil and gas to better our society~'-! do not believe you will find very much disagreement with that. IIWHEREAS the government of this Province has shown that oil and gas development under our regulations with oil at eighty-five per cent of world prices would make us a "have " Province for three years of a twenty year 3661

May 6,1981 Tape No. 1313 AH-2 ,, MR. RIDEOUT: development you know, there is not much disagreement on that. These are the facts of the matter as we have them before us and members on all sides have seen them by attending various symposiums and so on. "WHEREAS under our regulations, 25 per cent of each dollar earned is shared with the federal government"- that is our regulations as they are right now, this day - "and thirty-five per cent goes to the companies developin g the resource;'whi .ch, of course, Mr. Speaker, under our current regulations leave fort y per cent for the provincial share. "AND

WHEREAS this percentage is reasonable and consistent with revenue sharing currently being enjoyed by other producing Provinces !'-again, Mr. Speaker, that is a fact. Nobody can deny that. That is the percentage of share that other producing provinces have in place right now. MR. STIRLING: AN EOi:T .~·iLI:BER: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Oh, oh! We do not have a quorum. Order, please! The member did indicate that we do not have a quorum. I will ask the clerk to count .... Order, please! We have a quorum. I will ask the hon. member for Baie Verte (Mr. Rideout) to continue. MR. RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The Opposition is so interested in hearing what the debate is on this the leader even decides to call a quorum call. Now I was down to the last, '"NOW THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED;' Mr. Speaker 1 and I was making the case that I did not believe that the resolution was provocative or confrontationist in any way. And the last statement,"NOW THEREFORE

BE IT RESOLVED that this hon. House urge the federal government to reconsider its position on offshore minerals and recognize the Province's legitimate 3662

May 6,1981 MR. RIDEOUT: of them:• SOME HON . MEMBERS: Tape No. 1313 AH-3 rights to ownership and control Bear, hear ! MR . RIDEOUT: It just says, "Reconsider and urge ." There is no heavy,confrontat iona l language, no heavy provocative language whatsoever, I do not believe, Mr. Speaker, anywhere in that resolution . And these were the kind of introduc+-,.,ry comments that I was prepared to make <:md the kind of speech I was prepared to make up until , of course, last night 1 and then a few other things happened to interfere with that process. Since I prepared those comments , Mr.

Speaker, we have had the Prime Minister ' s visit,as I have indicated earlier, a.nd this resolution therefore, even though nobody could plan for it in the beginning,is probably more timely now than we could have perceived back in February when it was first put on the Order Paper . 3663

May 6, 1!181 Tape 1314 EC - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: I saw the Prime Minister on three major newscasts yesterday evening, Mr. Speaker. I saw him on C.B.C. Here and Now programme yesterday evening, I saw him on the C.T.V. Late Nigh t News last night and I saw him on the C.B.C. National News programme even later than that again last evening. So I saw three major newscasts yesterday in which the Prime Minister spoke on various things related to the country and to the Province but one, of course, which was of special interest because of ~his Resolution today. Mr.

Speaker, it is obvious to me, having watched those three major newscasts,that the Prime Minister of this country is a real Dr. Jekell and Mr. Hyde, there is no doubt about that. I saw him on Here and Now yesterday evening, Mr. Speaker, and the Prime Minister was the essence of compromise. He was the essence of compromise on the Here and Now programme yesterday evening. He said - and I made quotes while I was listening to him, this is one thing he said, that 'The Premier is elected to defend the interests of the people of the Province', he said that yesterday evening.

And he then said­ which must have made the Opposition shiver in their shoes, Mr. Speaker- that Peckford 'is doing a good job ' . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: Now, that must have been something to shake some shoes on the other side. That went right out across the Province. So he was the essence of compromise. You would say that things were really rosy. Then carne the news cuts last night, Mr. Speaker, cuts of the speech to that now famous fund raising dinner that some of his colleagues on the other side had some very choice words to say about yesterday. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR .

RIDEOUT: But there were cuts taken from that speech last night and you would never say, having watched the Here and Now programme and seeing the news cuts last night, that you were listening to the same Prime Minister talking 3664

May 6, 1981 Tape 1314 EC - 2 MR. RIDEOUT: about the same Premier. There is no way you could come to that conclusion on the Late News last night. But, Mr. Speaker, as far as this Resolution was concerned, I was more interested in what he had to say about the offshore resources. I knew more about the Late News last night, Mr. Speaker, than some han. gentlemen on the other side. At least I got home in time enough to see it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. RIDEOUT: Now, Mr. Speaker, I was more interested in what he had to say about the offshore resources because of this particular Resolution today. Now, Mr.

Speaker, there has been much talk lately from the gentlemen on the other side about confrontation p~licy. Every time you hear them opening their mouths lately, you hear about confrontation policy. And they got·their own brand of confrontation last night, Mr. Speaker. They got their own brand of confrontation from the Prime Minister of this country. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: The whole nation, everybody was watching the C.T.V. National News last night; the whole nation saw last night.

We saw him as Prime Minister, we saw him as leader of the federal Liberal Party, we saw him turn to the Leader of the Opposition, we saw him turn to the leader of the Liberal Party in this Province and call his name. We saw that on the C.T.V. news clip last night. He called the leader's name and he said, 'You say you own it, 'Len' and I say you do not.' SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. RIDEOUT : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. RIDEOUT: what I saw last night - MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Hear, hear! There is what we saw last night. Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker, I can only report Order, please! 3665

May 6, 1981 Tape 1314 EC - 3 MR. RIDEOUT: - and that is quote, unquote on the C.T.V. National News, 'You say you own it, 'Len' and I say you do not.' Now, the question is, Mr. Speaker, how can you compromise with that kind of attitude? How can there not be confrontation with that kind of attitude? That is the real question. And that confrontation came from none other than the friend of the gentlemen opposite.

Now, I would say that after that the only course that is open to the Leader of the Opposition now is to do what he told C.B.C. radio back in' February or something he was going to do, or if he ever had the chance he would do it, and that would be to bargain away for other things our right to the offshore. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. RIDEOUT: Now, he told that, we all heard it on the news broa~t in this Province that he would be willing - what is it he said? -'to take advantage of the offshore development, to use that as a negotiating tool rather than a declaration of war'. SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON.

MEMBERS: MR. RIDEOUT: media of this Province. Hear, hear! Oh, oh! That is what he said in the news Now, Mr. Speaker, that is the only avenue left open to him. In other words, after what the federal leader said to him last night, the only thing you can do, Mr. Speaker, is bend over and buckle down to the federal policy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR . RIDEOUT: And that was the challenge that the Prime Minister, the leader of the federal Liberal Party, issued to the Leader of the Opposition, his counterpart in this Province, who hopes to become Premier of this Province one day. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

RIDEOUT : Now, Mr. Speaker, there were other 3666 ...

~¥ 6, 19..81 Tape 1314 EC - 4 MR. RIDEOUT: interesting things developed in the statements yesterday, and a vital part of this Resolution, Mr. Speaker, 3667

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1315 DW - 1 MR. T. RIDEOUT: A vital part of this resolution deals with revenue sharing. I want to talk about that for a while. What does the Prime Minister say about revenue sharing? We know what our regulations are. Mr.

Speaker, the Opposition, for almost over a year now,have been gloating in this House and around the Province about the Prime Minister's election statement made, I believe it was in February last year when he was here in the Province, when he said that Newfoundland would get 100 per cent of the revenue until we became a 'have' Province.A lot of people, I have heard them say it here in the House, I have heard them say it publicly that they were quite happy with that, that was a good situation. Well, last night, Mr. Speaker, we got the definition of 100 per cent.

We have been saying it for some time on this side, 'What does the 100 per cent mean? 100 per cent of what?' But last night we got the definition of 100 per cent. The Prime Minister said it himself: It was 100 per cent of the 45 per cent pro­ vincial share that Alberta gets now. And, of course, that is going to be reduced now, Mr. Speaker, by the national energy policy to 43 per cent. There is nobody saying it cannot be reduced to 38 per cent next year or to 20 per cent the year after that. That is what he told us, that is what the 100 per cent means. Now, Mr. Speaker, there are three things wronq with that.

We get nothing extra out of this formula thRt he suggested while we are struggling to achieve the 'have' statu~not a thing"extra do we get; the equilization dollar slides away on the one side if the oil revenues come in on the other side. Alberta gets 100 per cent of their 45 per cent now, to be reduced to 43 per cent if the national energy policy comes in place. 3668

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1315 DW - 2 MR. T. RIDEOUT: They get that now as of right. What are we going to get as of right if the Prime Minister has his way? The CBC did not ask him that question last night. What do we get as of right? Alberta is getting their share now. They are getting 100 per cent of their 45 per cent, which will be reduced to 43 if the national energy policy goes through. What are we going to get? That question has not been asked, that question has not been anSWb.ed. So I have to say what will become of us? What will happen to us after we achieve the 'have' status?

Alberta will still get their 45 per cent - they are 'have' now - or their 43 per cent, whatever it is. Once we achieve that point,are we going to be slashed in half? Are we going to be told that we cannot have that much anymore? Now, Mr. Speaker, none of things the Prime Minister said last night have been pro­ posed in writing to this Province. The last thing that we had in this Province was the proposed Maritime Energy Agreement and I believe that that was 1975 or 1976. There has not been any proposal in writing along the lines that he made last night.

We have said, this Province has said consistently that we are prepared to share our wealth with other parts of Canada, our regu­ lations spell it out. There have even been more liberal up to this point in time than the federal regulations. So we are prepared to share - that is not the point. We do . not want to be faced with mathematical problems. It is a philosophi- cal principle that has to be dealt with here, Mr. Speaker. And it has to be dealt with, it must be dealt with and it has not been dealt with up to this point in time. Throwing mathematical figures at us is not going to bring about any solution.

There was no talk in his dissertation last night about control, no talk about 3669

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1315 DW - 3 MR. T. RIDEOUT: the rate and type of develop- ment. These are questions that we cannot address and that we cannot do anything about, Mr. Speaker, unless we have the ownership of the resource. Will they suck it out as fast as they can? We do not want that to happen. Now these are questions that must be addressed and they were not addressed in the Prime Minister's statement last night . Now, Mr. Speaker, that is why the statement by the Prime Minister last night to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Stirling) was so important, 'You say you own it and I do not!' In other words, 'Take us to court'. Well, if you go to court, Mr. Speaker, we may win, we may lose, I do not know. I happen to believe we have a good case from what I have seen. But other provinces of Canada did not have to go to court. Alberta, Saskatche­ wan, Manitoba did not go to court in 1930, Mr. Speaker. There was a political settlement arranged, there was a political will to do it, and it was done at the time by a Liberal Government in Ottawa. Now what is the problem today? What is the ?roblem today? The problem is not talking, Mr. Speaker.

The problem is that we have not had a proposal since 1975. They have stuck to their guns, the Maritime Energy Proposal is the only one we had. We had them come down here last night, threw a bunch of mathematics at us and nobody dared ask him the question, 'What happens when you achieve 'have' status?•We know what the situation is in Alberta, they still get their 100 per cent of their 45 per cent, we know that. Does New­ foundland still 3670 r.

May 6, 1981, Tape 1316, Page 1 -- apb MR. RIDEOUT: get the 100 per cent of its forty-five? It might be forty-three by then, Mr. Speaker. It might be twenty by then, because of the national energy policy and because of the Frontier Oil Exploration Act that is before the House of Commons now. This is a philosophical principle that this Province has to stand firm on.

We have to stand firm on our ownership because without the ownership, Mr. ·speaker, there is no way that we can manage, control the rate and type of development and thereby lessen the impacts, the negative impacts on this Province when that particular resource is gone. So,Mr. Speaker, I cannot see how there could be any political disagreement on this. The motion is a very conciliatory motion.

Unfortunately I had to deal with the very provocative statements, especially the confrontation and the challenge that the Leader of the Liberal Party of Canada, the Prime Minister, threw at the Leader of the Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador (Mr. Stirling). Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to move the resolution. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER(Butt): Windsor - Buchans. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! The hon. the member for Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: Now, Mr. Speaker, it is obviously very difficult to take

part in this debate on the resolution just presented by the hon. member without remembering that a year ago that hon. member was energy spokesman for this Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: One has got to remember that. (Inaudible) and I do not want either, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 3671

May 6, l98l, Tape l3l6, Page 2 -- apb MR. P.LIGHT: Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER(Butt): MR. FLIGHT: I do not want either, Oh, oh.!· Order, pleas .e !- Now, Mr. Speaker, let me say this: I am not sure, I tried to make my own mind up on the hon. member's performance this past -since he crossed and joined the government. But it seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that he feels very insignificant sitting where he is sitting. And this side of the House has made no attempts, as he knows since he crossed the House, to draw attention to the fact that he crossed, that he. was a turncoat, as some people say, right?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT: He crossed on a phoney issue, Mr. Speaker, and he is more and more being recognized as the hon. member who cros·sed the House on a very phoney issue. Now, it is not our fault, it is not this side's fault, Mr. Speaker, that the member feels that he has to draw attention to himself by bringing in this kind of a resolution, a resolution that is couched in politics. Now, let me deal with.this resolution as he did, clause for clause. I am only going to pick a couple of clauses. This resolution is sloppy, badly put together, and it contains untruths. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh~ Oh! MR.

FLIGHT: Listen to the

WHEREAS, Mr. Speaker. "AND

WHEREAS the Province has the regulations-" ' I can accept the regulations - "and the expertise necessary for the wise development of our offshore" ·. Now, Mr. Speaker, I had the privilege,by the invitation of the Newfoundland Government, accompanied by the Leader of the Opposition, to attend a petroleum symposium in this Province , and the expertise 3672 .. f.'

May 6, 1981, Tape l316, Page 3 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: from all over the world regarding offshore development and oil development was present. And not only, Mr. Speaker, did it become very apparent that we do not have the expertise as a Province to deal with some of the things that will have to be dealt with out there - I mean, the only expertise we have is confined to the Petroleum Directorate. Now, hon. members can take the Petroleum Directorate, the listing of the salaries, and we can look at what some of those people did prior to be~ng appointed, and then you have to wonder whereby the expertise.

But here is the important point, Mr. Speaker: Speaker after speaker after speaker after speaker at that symposium stood up - they had no axe to grind, they were not part of Mobil, they were not representing the federal government, they were not representing the provincial government, they were people, experts, probably the greatest experts in the world, invited by the Petroleum Directorate to give their positions, to address themselves to the technical problems that we are going to face. And speaker after speaker, Mr.

Speaker, got up and not only said that not only did Newfoundland not have the expertise, but the expertise ­ might not exist in the world to bring in the offshore the way that the hon. government is saying they want to bring it in, re the pipeline concept. It might not exist in the world. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: We have been fed, the people of this Province, Mr. Speaker, for years, have been fed on the theory we are going to have a pipeline, a pipeline in. Now, Mr.

Speaker, speaker after speaker stood up at the Petroleum Directorate and to a point where the Petroleum Directorate and their spokesman could 3673

May 6, 1981, Tape 1316, Page 4 -- apb MR. FLIGHT: not take it any more - and Mr. Cabot l-lartin out of frustration had to get up and insult some of the experts who had come because he could not accept the fact of life, the fact of life being that either we may be prepared - and it is our decision and I am quite prepared to be party to making that decision. We are going to have to decide that the production of offshore is delayed by ten or fifteen or twenty years, or twenty-five years, to give us the time to develop the expertise that will allow us to bring that oil ashore by pipeline . And it is not only the ice, M.r. Speaker. 3674

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1317 NM - 1 MR. FLIGHT: member who was present at that symposium was the hon. member for St. John's West (Mr. Barrett), And it is not only the ice that creates a problem with the pipeline concept, it is the temperature of the water, the depth of the water. They are not convinced that that oil can be brought ashore by pipeline without having to put in pumping stations all the way. It is unbelievable the kind of a thing they might have to look at. And that expertise 'and that technology is not in place in the world, let alone in Newfoundland, and then a clause says,'we have the expertise'.

So, Mr. Speaker, you know you could go on and on and take the resolution apart on that basis. But I do not intend to deal with the resolution anymore, Mr. Speaker, I intend to amend the resolution. MR. NEARY: You do not intend to do what? MR. FLIGHT: I do not intend to discuss the resolution as presented. I intend to amend the resolution and Mr. Speaker, I am going to move a forthright amendment in keeping with the hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr. Rideout) that says we do not want partisan politics to get in this debate, we want to discuss the issues - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.

FLIGHT: - we want to discuss the issues as they are. And, Mr. Speaker, I hereby move, seconded by the hon. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder), that the resolution be amended by deleting all the words after "whereas" and replacing them with the following: "WHEREAS the position of the House of Assembly is that offshore mineral oil and gas resources are owned by the Province, and;

WHEREAS the wise and controlled development of offshore resources is important to the future of the people of Newfoundland and Labrador, and; 3675

ay 6, 19.81 Tape. No. 1317 NM - 2 MR. FLTGHT: "WHEREAS the Prime Mi.ni.ster has expressed a wi.llingness to discuss either a political or a court settlement," and that is key, Mr. Speaker, a lot of people, a lot of Newfoundlanders across this Province last night heard - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. FLIGHT: I do not mind the member taking a line or two out of context. But a lot of Newfoundlanders heard the Pri.me Minister of this country, and a lot of people - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR.

FLIGHT: - and it was proven less than a year ago, as the hon. member knows, that a lot of Newfound- landers are prepared to take MR. MARSHALL: MR. FLIGHT: Mini ·ster • s word •. MR. SPEAKER ()3utt) : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. FLIGHT: AND

WHEREAS MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: Finish your amendment. - prepared to take the Prime Order, please! Oh, oh~ Order, please! Oh, oh~ Order, please! I have to ask the member if he would read the amendment so I can make a decision on whether it is in order or not. MR. FLIGHT: Well, I will continue on with the whereases, Mr. Speaker. AND

WHEREAS the Prime Minister has expressed a willingness to discuss either a political settlement or a court settlement;

BE IT RESOLVED THEREFORE that this House reassert its pos·ition that we own the offshore resources; AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the provincial government express its willingness to meet the federal government to consider a co- 36i6

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1317 NM - 3 MR. FLIGHT: operative and joint development of the offshore resources so that the controlled development can take place for the benefit of our people while the question of ownership is being resolved. MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : writing please. Council. MR. MARSHALL: I so move, Mr. Speaker. On a point of order. May I have the amendment in The hon. the President of the Mr. Speaker, that amendment is so blatantly out of order the wonder of it is that it could ever be proposed. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL : It is not, Mr. Speaker - Oh, oh! - it is not permissible, Mr.

Speaker, to negate the main motion with an amendment. MR. MORGAN: Do not be so stupid, boy. MR. MARSHALL: You cannot, Mr. Speaker, and I quote Beauchesne, page 154, "Form and Content of Amendments". And you will find there, Mr. Speaker, that you cannot bring in an amendment. vAn amendment proposing a direct negative,though it may be ' covered up in verbiage, is out of order ;• Mr. Speaker, what the hon. gentleman are doing with this, which is their wont because they are embarrassed by the resolution passed by the hon. member - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. S. NEARY: Do not be so childish.

Grow up boy, grow up. -3 6 7 7

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1317 NM - 4 MR. MARSHALL: This is a tactic, Mr. Speaker, Instead of•The hon. House urge the federal government to re­ consider its position on offshore minerals and recognize the Province's legitimate right to ownership and control of them', it is for'the House to reassert its right to ownership~ It has nothing to do, Mr. Speaker, with the federal government reconsidering its position on offshore. The hon. gentleman has gotten right at the nub of the problem that confronts this Province in the resolution which he,has passed.

The bon. gentlemen there opposite wish to try to erase it and obscure it from the minds of the public, As such they can attempt to do it but they cannot do it outside the rules of this House, Mr. Speaker, and propose an amendment which so obviously in its terms negates the present motion.And let it be known that they are trying to do this, Mr. Speaker, not just as a tactic, but to try to obscure their position which is contrary to the interests of all Newfoundlanders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Port on the point of order. MR. HODDER: Hear, hear!

The hon. member for Port au To that point of order, 3678 .....

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1318 SD - 1 MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, there is nothing in the amendment which was brought in by the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight),that negates the motion by the member for Bay Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout). Mr. Speaker, we sought the advice of the clerks on this and the main motion - the 'Whereases' are not as important as the main motion. The main motion of the member for Baie Verte-White Bay reads: 'BE IT RESOLVED that this hon.

House urge the federal government to reconsider its position on offshore minerals and recognize the Province's legitimate right to ownership and control of them'. MR. STIRLING: We are not changing that. MR. HODDER: We are not changing that, Mr. Speaker, we say: BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that this House reassert its position that we own the offshore resource. So Mr. Speaker, the hon. House Leader (Mr. Marshall) there opposite - MR. STIRLING: A good try 'Bill'. MR. HODDER: - is just trying to waste the time - MR. STIRLING: A good try. MR. HODDER: - the· twenty minutes which the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr.

Flight) has to respond in this debate. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! To the point of order; first of all let me say that the Chair is in a little bit of a difficult situation because I think we are treading a very fine line here and it would appear, you know, at a glance that it does ,. . negate the resolution brought in by the hon. member for BaieVerte- White Bay. However, I want to give the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans the benefit of the doubt so I will just take a very brief recess to confer with legal advice at th.e table on the amendment. MR.

FLIGHT: Recess does not come out of th.e time. MR. SPEAKER: That is right. The recess does not come out of the time. RECESS: 36/9

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1319 EL - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! Is it agreed we proceed? With respect to the amendment moved by the hon. member for Windsor­ Buchans (G. Flight), I would like to quote the following auth- orities and direct members' attention to that. I might say to hon.members at the outset of this matter, that it is one of those questions of degree which always presents a difficult problem for the Chair. First of all, I quote Standing Order 36 which states,'A motion may be amended by leaving out certain words, or

b) by leaving out certain words in order to insert other words,or

c) by inserting or adding other words.' This amendment falls into category b).

Secondly, Beauchesne, Fifth edition, page 153, paragraph 425 says, 'The object of an amend­ ment may be to modify a ~uestion in such a way as to increase its acceptability or to present to the House a different pro­ position as an alternative to the original question ~hich must, however, be relevant to the subject of the questio~ It appears to me that the purpose of this amendment coincides with references in Beauchesne,that the object is to effect such alteranions in the motion that could obtain the support of those who would not support it in its original form.

So, it appears to me within the general principal and the purpose of the amendment as referred to specifically by Beauchesne in paragraph 425.And,finally,I quote Sir Erskine May, Parliamentary Practices, Nineteenth Edition, page 387 and I quote "The object of an amend­ ment may be either to modify a question in such a way as to in­ creaseits'acceptability, or to present to the House a different proposition as an alternative to the original question. The latter purpose may be effected by moving to omit all or most of the words of the question 3680 ......

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1319 EL - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Butt): after the first word and to subs- titute in their place other words of a different import. In that case the debate that follows is not restricted to the amendment, but includes the purpose both of the amendment and of the motion, both matters being under consideration of the House as an alternative proposition.' Thus, having considered the matter, I rule that the amendment of the hon. member for Windsor­ Buchans (G. Flight) is in 'order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor- Buchans.has about eighteen minutes. MR.

FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr.Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, let me in the little time that is left, get to the nub of the matter. There is something I want to say here. And I want to put aside once and for all the ownership - the contest of ownership. Mr. Speaker, this Opposition stands four square on ownership. We own the offshore. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: The Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, accepts the concept that we own the offshore. The, Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador accepts the concept that we own the offshore. 3681

May 6, 1981 Tape 1320 EC - 1 MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, let us not waste time in this House any more determining the position of the Opposition. We own the offshore. And the hon. member is right, Mr. Speaker. The Leader of the Opposition last night told the Prime Minister that we own the offshore. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: Let me say, Mr. Speaker, I do not particularly care - and I am speaking for this Opposition - I do not particularly care at this stage what the position of the federal government is on offshore. Everybody has positions on everything. Our position is we own the offshore, Mr.

Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: And here is where this Province is being led down the drain, Mr. Speaker, and here is where there may be a terrible injustice being perpetrated on the people of this Province by the present administration. We also know, and more and more Newfoundlanders are getting to realize,that if the ownership was resolved tomorrow, if there was a resolution of the ownership tomorrow in this Province's favour, that you would then have to go into a joint agreement. We would have to develop that offshore jointly with Ottawa even with the ownership resolved. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we just saw something a few days ago that indicated to the people of this Province whether we should or should not have - >-Te have hung our hats on the success of that offshore. We saw a budget, Mr. Speaker, that told the people very plainly - MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: - that the only way we can address the needs of the people of this Province, the only way we can maintain basic services in this Province, the only way we can maintain our roads, is if we get the revenue from offshore. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! MR.

FLIGHT: Well, whether he likes it or lumps it, the Premier has hung the financial credibility of this 3682

May 6, 1981 Tape 1320 EC - 2 MR. F·LIGHT : Province on offshore. Now, Mr. Speaker, if there is going to be a salvation, there can · only be a salvation one way, it has to be developed. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: We have to have the revenue from that offshore. If we are in a position, Mr.

Speaker, if the government thinks - and I can see myself concurring - if the gov~rnment thinks that we can say to Mobil, 'Look, go away and come back twenty-five years from now because we have all the money we want to run our Province, we can provide the water and sewer services, the oil will not spoil, leave it there; we do not agree with Trudeau, we do not agree with you: go away until the political atmosphere in this country changes twenty-five years from now' - now if we can say that to our people, then I would say, to hell with Mobil 1 to hell with the federal government.

But we cannot and that budget of a few days ago, Mr. Speaker, told the story. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT: The government's dealing with the workers in the Trade School told the story. Now, Mr. Speaker, what I am saying to the people of this Province and the members of this House of Assembly - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, pl-ease! MR. FLIGHT: - is that we have to have a negotiated settlement on the offshore. Now,what is wrong, Mr. speaker? I challenge the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr.

Rideout) when he stands next Wednesday to tell me what is wrong with this: Had that oil been discovered on the Gaff Topsails, Mr. Speaker, there would have been none of this political kerfuffle this past five years. If that oil was discovered on the Gaff Topsails we would have gone into 3663

May 6, 1981 Tape 1320 EC - 3 MR. FLIGHT: developl!lent. All the consti- tutional arrangements governing royalties and governing profit sharing would have been in place. I challenge any member on the opposite side to tell me, had that oil been found at the Gaff Topsails, would we have gone through what we are going through? Well, Trudeau has said to the 500,000 Newfoundlanders last night that you can have control of the offshore; we will treat it the same as if it was on land, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: That is right. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT: Now, Mr. Speaker, Mr.

Trudeau said that you can have control of the offshore, develop the offshore, have the same profit sharing on the offshore as if it was developed on land. Now, how can the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout) go back to Baie Verte? How can he stand up in LaScie and convince the people of LaScie that we can get any better deal on oil than if it were on land? Well, let us put away the rest, let us put away the political nonsense. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: I will tell you, Mr. Speaker, what is happening in this Province.

And it is happening more and more, and you would be ~urprised how the attitude has changed in the past six months, Mr. Speaker. AN HON . MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: There is a real concern because of the _fed bashing. Because of the confrontation stance of this government, Mobil may indeed be looking at putting an infra- structure in Halifax, they may indeed be gearing up to be in a position to control the development or to invest their money, they may indeed. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. FLIGHT: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MOORES: fisheries. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us assume - Oh, oh!

We would not make a fool of the 3684 .. ,,

May 6, 1981 MR. FLIGHT: please? MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : MR. MOORES: Fisheries. MR. SPEAKER: in silence. MR. FLIGHT: Tape 1320 EC - 4 Could I have order, Mr. Speaker, Order, please! We would not make a mess of the Order, please! The hon. member wishes to be heard . Order, please! Well, Mr. Speaker, let us go out and ask the people _ of Newfoundland - again I go back to the old theory, Mr. Sneaker, who cares, who will care? The Petroleum Directorate has told us that based on their projected level of yearly production, based on the known reserves, the oil would only last in Hibernia for twenty years.

Only three of those twenty we will not have to get equalization for. Now, who in Newfoundland cares, Mr. Speaker, whether we own the offshore after all the oil is gone? Who cares whether we own a piece of real estate 200 miles offshore under 4,000 or 5,000 £eet of water? The concern of the average Newfoundlander in this Province, Mr. Speaker, is that this government negotiate and develop that offshore in a way where the financial benefits, every last cent, accrues to Newfoundland, and they could not care less about the ownership. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: And there is evidence, Mr.

Speaker, there is evidence that this is not happening. There is evidence every day, and more and more people- the business conununi ty of this Province and this city, Mr. Speaker, is becoming more and more nervous about the way that this government is dealing with the pffshore. 3685

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1321 so - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. FLIGHT: Mo~e and more they see the possibility of the profits that they want to make being made in Halifax. And let me say something else, Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt in anyone's mind who attended that symposium and listened to the experts of the world 1 that the production method out there is going to be by tanker. There will be no pipeline come ashore to bring that oil ashore, unless we are in a position to put off production for twenty-five years. Are we? Are we in a position to put off the production for twenty-five years?

If we are not we are going to produce it from the wellhead by tanker. And if the government is capable of bringing Come By Chance into production,we can use 100,000 barrels a day. The other 100,000 barrels a day is going to head to the Eastern Seaboard. Now, Mr. Speaker, tell me, can that operation be done, can that kind of production programme be done from Halifax? Can it or can it not? Can it be done from Halifax or can it not? Mobil has put $450 million already into exploration, untold billions, Mr. Speaker, in order to get into production.

Do you think they are so stupid, do you think the people of Newfoundland have no respect for a company like Mobil or a company like Abitibi­ Price or any of the major companies? Do you think the people with that company are not as smart as some of the ministry over there? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. FLIGHT: Do you think, Mr. Speaker, that while they watch the petty politics, the purely petty politics - the Premier believes and his members believe that he has an issue that they can win an election on, and they can wipe out the Opposition? Well, Mr.

Speaker, he had better start doing some polling - use the offshore and ask the people out there in Lewisporte and in St. Anthony 3686

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1321 SD - 2 MR. FLIGHT: and in Deer Lake and in Badger what they think, what they want from their offshore, Mr. Speaker. And there is a real danger, Mr. Speaker - DR. COLLINS: Very much like the Upper Churchill. MR. FLIGHT: The Lower Churchill is a good example. This government, Mr. Speaker, hoodwinked the people of this Province for nine years on the Lower Churchill, wasted billions of dollars ~ AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. FLIGHT: - hundreds of millions of dollars, Mr. Speaker, and hoodwinked for purely partisan reasons and are still doing it, and what did they find out, Mr. Speaker?

They found out they did not have the money, the expertise, the political will or anything else to develop the Lower Churchill. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. FLIGHT: So what did they do? What did they do a year ago? They went to Ottawa, cap in hand, Mr. Speaker, to use an old phrase, cap in hand, and said, We want to develop the Lower Churchill, we recognize we can only do it with your support, with your expertise, with your kind of support And we drew up LCDC, a great corportation that one day may develop the Lower Churchill. But · who made it possible, Mr. Speaker?

Is that concept not workable with the offshore? Would the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) not be prepared to have a 51/49 controlling interest by way of making all the decisions like LCDC? No. MR. MOORES: Yes or no. MR. FLIGHT: You can do it with the Lower Chuf1chill, you cannot do it on the offshore? Do you know why you cannot do it on the offshore? What would this Premier have done, Mr. Speaker? MR. r.100RES : No, that is not what he meant. 3687

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1321 SD - 3 MR. FLTGHT: We found out five years ago that there was oil out there. Well,this Province has been here for 400* We have had prime ministers who had to cope with managing this Province. What would Brian Peckford, having assumed the leadership from Frank Moores, what would he have done if there was no offshore out there? We would still have had to have li~ as a Province. What would he have done? What issue would he have hung his hat on? How would he have maintained the services, Mr. Speaker? MR. PATTERSON: (Inaudible) going to ottawa with your tin cup. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, the Premier and every one - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: of his quislings believes in their hearts that they have an issue, a political issue that they can win an election on. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. FLIGHT: B·u t , .Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. member's time has expired. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No leave. MR. SPEAKER: There is no agreement. ' The hon. the President of the Council. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I only .h.ave a few moments, I deserve to be heard in silence. On the opposit~ side I do not expect to be understood but at least to be heard. Mr. Speaker, the amendment which has been allowed as, Your Honour in his wisdom h.as allowed it- MR. STIRLING: Questioning the Speaker now. MR. MARSHA:(..L: No, I am not questioning the Speaker. It is a ~llous ruling that the Speaker - the Speaker always 3688 r.·

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1321 so - 4 MR. ~1ARSHALL : makes good rulings, the Speaker always makes a good decisi9n but I am so happy that Your Honour in your wisdom has seen fit to allow the amendment because it allows the Opposition once again to embarrass themselves on a very basic issue before the people of this Province. SOME HON . ~1EMBERS : MR. MARSHALL: in his remarks - MR. NEARY : MR. MARSHALL: Oh, oh! The hon . gentleman there opposite (Inaudible) last night in your (inaudible) . - and I do not propose to deal at great length with them , ~tr. Speaker , 3689

May 6,1981 Tape No. 1322 AH-1 MR . MARSHALL: 'what they want to do, the hon. gentlemen there opposite, they want to say,'we own the offshore and we just want to leave it at that, we believe we own the offshore.' Now,that is what he said. Is he prepared,are he and the members of the Opposition prepared to go to Ottawa and say to the federal government,Because we own the offshore we want the same rights from the offshore as Manitoba got in 1930, Saskatchewan got in 1930, as Quebec after Confederation when it did half of its territory? Would they go to Ottawa, Mr.

Speaker, and say they are going to disassociate themselves - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Butt): Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: - from the federal party if they do not stand for the proper position for the development of Newfoundland? What the hon. gentleman wants to do, he proposes a programme, Mr. Speaker, the same type of programme that they had before, that is the give-it-away programme and the programme which is going to put ourselves down the road to disaster and make ourselves tenants in the - MR. HANCOCK: (Inaudible) last night than you have in the last five years. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, I ask - MR. SPEAKER (Butt) : Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: - tenants in our own land as we have been in the case of the Upper Churchill. Now, Mr. Speaker, I propose to address myself to the main resolution,which I am permitted to do, and I want to· first of all congratulate the member for Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr. Rideout) for bringing in this resolution and particularly congratulate the member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Ridedut) for the fine speech 3690 ........ < •

May 6,1981 Tape No. 1322 AH-2 MR. MARSHALL: which he made in the House this afternoon. More than any person in this Province, Mr. Speaker, the member for Baie Verte -White Bay · (Mr. Rideout) has shown where he stands on this issue, where he stands as a Newfoundlander. He had the courage of his cQnvictions, Mr. Speaker, to make the stand which he took and he took the stand. If other Newfoundlanders in the Liberal party would take stands similar to that - I am not suggesting they come over here, Mr.

Speaker, because we are very choosy, but if the hon. gentlemen would take stands which are similar to the hon. member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout), we would have a united Newfoundland on this and we would be much further ahead in the development. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, let it be understood on this matter which is before us and which is very topical today 1 that the position of this government has always been that the appropriate means of resolving the offshore dispute is through the constitutional process. In order to implement the constitutional process, Mr.

Speaker, there obviously have to be discussions,so the hon. House is well aware of the fact that this government is quite prepared at any time to have discussions toward resolution of this matter by a constitutional process and that this is the only acceptable manner to this government. The route of court is not acceptable 1 as has been threatened to us. No~ when we say discussions, I want to make it quite plain, when we say discussions we are not willing to negotiate in the way that the hon. gentlemen there opposite want to negotiate. We are not prepared , Mr.

Speaker, when there is any blood in this government or any breath,to negotiate away inherent rigbts basic to Newfoundlanders. And we cannot afford to do that , Mr. Speaker, anymore than 3691

May 6,1981 Tape No. 1322 AH-3 MR. MARSHALL: we can afford to negotiate the volume of oxygen that we breatrn every day, that we require. And the analogy, Mr.

Speaker, is exactly the same because this is what this Province requires and this Province is prepared at all times, has been ready, willing and able to discuss matters leading to a constitutional resolution of this matter but certainly is not willing, Mr.Speaker, to negotiate a)Nay the inherent rights of the people of this Province that the bon. gentlemen - I do not say they are anxious to,but they would in their own ingrained stupidity, as they have shown by the amendment that they have led into this House, Mr. Speaker.

And I will tell you why, I will give you one of the reasons why we are not prepared to negotiate and what we mean by negotiating away things. We are not prepared, Mr. Speaker, to see the Province of Newfoundland in the years to come, the Island of Newfoundland become like Bell Island was. We know what happened .on Bell Island, Mr. Speaker. The directors of DOSCO at the time, spurred on by the shareholders of DOSCO at the time 1 took as much as they possibly could as quickly as they could, realized what profits were there and they left,as the bon. member for Harbour Main - Bell Island (Mr.

Doyle) knows, they left a very unfortunate if not a disasterous situation behind them. There was, Mr. Speaker, no 3692

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1323 DW - 1 MR. W. MARSHALL: control, the shareholders of Dosco, Mr. Speaker, that is what resulted. Now,what is going to happen here SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! MR. W. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, I only have the alotted time, hon. members can get in the debate if they wish to. But, Mr. Speaker, what is going to happen here if we start negotiating away basic rights such as ownership and control? Nhat will happen is the rate of development will be set by the federal government. That is, in effect, what will happen. And, Mr.

Speaker, it is a fact of life that the majority shareholders in Canada are Ontario and Quebec. Quebec has seventy-five seats, Ontario has in access of eighty-five, I believe.So they have by far the majority of seats in this country. And, Mr. Speaker, it is obviously in their interests, it is in their interests, Mr. Speaker, to exploit that resource. If we take the condi­ tions of the present day it is obviously in their interests to exploit this resource as quickly as they possibly can.

Because,. understandably, the oeople of Ontario and the people in Quebec are interested in maintaining the way of their industrial life which is, Mr. Speaker, directly dependent nowadays on matters like oil and gas. So, Mr. Speaker, what will happen if this Province has not got controlf You can believe you me it will be that the rate of development will be determined­ Now this is just one instance- the rate of development will be determined by the federal government. The federal government, obviously 1 is going to respond,as we have seen in the past,to the majority shareholders,as it were,in the 3693 . '

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1323 DW - 2 MR. W. MARSHALL: Canadian nation, that is Ontario and Quebec, and they will take the resource as fast as they can without - now they will have some heed certainly to this Province, they have to, sort of like a patronizing heed as they have shown in the past towards people who they regard as perpetual recipients of welfare. They will have a certain regard, they are not completely heartless that way 1 but their main concern has got to be, Mr. Speaker, those seats in Ontario and Quebec.

And the hon. gentlemen there opposite know that I speak the truth and that is one of the major, major problems. We are not going to create another Bell Island in the Province of Newfoundland. We are not going to put the Province of Newfoundland as another Bell Island. I am giving an example of what happens. The hon. gentle- man full knows what the situation is. So that is one of the major reasons, Mr. Speaker, why we must have - now we must have control of our destiny and at the same time, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : Order, please! MR. W.

MARSHALL: - atthe same time,apart from the revenues as members of the Canadian nation , of course we will shar~. And I bitterly resent the accusations made from time to time by the Right Honourable gentleman, the present Prime Minister of Canada 1 insinuating that this Province and these people are not willing to share. They share, Mr. Speaker, and they have sharedamply over the years. They are sharing every year to the tune of $500, now $600 million from the Upper Churchill resources that go into the Province of Quebec. And here again we are prevented from going through the Province of Quebec. Why?

We are part of the Canadian nation. The same thing is going to happen. We are prevented from going through the Province of Quebec because the Province of Quebec has seventy-five seats. And the federal government 3694

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1323 DW - 3 MR. W. MARSHALL: is not going to jeopardize its position there. I mean, it is a fact of life. Now,we are willing to share. I was somewhat amused yesterday to see the Prime Minister on Here and Now, As I saw him,he was talking about the share of the federal government being 10 per cent in Alberta and they were trying to get it up to 11 per cent or 12 per cent or 13 per cent. Well, Mr. Speaker, under our regula­ tions,with us having ownership and control,the share which the federal government will have will be 25 per cent. So all he has to do, Mr.

Speaker, all he has to do,if he does not wish to have the battle he has with Alberta, is just give us the oil and gas and we will give him 25 per cent. We are quite prepared to share. We are prepared to share Mr.

Speaker, but we are not prepared,when we realize that the Government of Canada,which is our federal government, is dictated .to now1 as it has been since 1867 1 be it Liberal, be it Tory or whatever shape it may be- we are not in this Province ever again going to have our destiny dictated by the Provinces of Ontario and Quebec which is what is going to happen if the hon. gentlemen there opposite have their way. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL : loves that . '1R. FLIGHT: MR. MARSAHLL: MR. SPEAKER I ' BAIRD) : MR. MARSHALL: Hear, hear!

Ah,now, the hon. gentleman (Inaudible) I will get on to the separatist­ Order, please! - in the middle, Mr. Speaker~ You know, Mr. Speaker, you respond to people- well,! will not say it. You do not respond to people-really you should not say with people you have contempt for you do not respond to so I will not say it . But I do not have contempt for the hon. gentleman personally, but I do' have contempt, extreme contempt for his ideas,Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is all they can say. The move made by the hon. the Prime Minister yesterday 3695

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1323 RA - 4 MR. MARSHALL: when he was speaking, the move­ he said ' negotiate or take it to court' . With the will­ ing concurrence of the members opposite they would have us negot,iate ard negotiate it all the way and I say tJ:ere is a marked distinction between discussions and negotiations of basic , inherent rights. But let us take the matter o f court. The hon. gentlem.en there opposite have ~ aid f rom time to time - AN BON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) MR. MARSHALL: - the hon . gentlemen there opposite have said from time to time 1 their statements yesterday were consistent.

" We believe we own the offshore but we should take it to court" . We believe, Mr. Speaker, instead of that - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER(Simms): Order, please! MR. MARSifALL: - Mr . Speaker, we believe instead of that , that ownership and control of 3696

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1324 EL - 1 MR. MARSHALL: our resources,which are the re- sources under the seabed and belong to this Province, that they should be, even if it is necessary, which apparently it isrthat the Federal Government should confirm them simply by passing legislation in the same way they were prepared to pass legislation for the benefit of Manitoba and Saskatchewan and Quebec, Andthe wonder of it is, Mr. Speaker, that they will not do that. Now, why will they not do it? And let us not be deluded.

The fact of the matter is,and the reason why they will not do it is because we have seven seats, Quebec has seventy-five seats, Ontario has eighty-five seats. Mr. Speaker, it is a fact of life but we should not, Mr. Speaker, be treated - MR. STIRLING: (Inaudible) MR. MARSHALL: Is there any reason that the hon. gentlementhere opposite can tell us why we have to be treated any differently than the other provinces of Canada have in the historical makeup of Canada? MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! I would ask the Leader of the Opp- osition to restrain himself. MR. MARSHALL: We have always, Mr.

Speaker, as I say, been willing to talk and discuss. But we will never in this government,while there is any breath to breathe in it or any integrity in it1 andthere will be until the day it goes, which will be a long period of time, we are not willing to negotiate away inherent,basic rights basic to the survival of this Prov- ince - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: fare. Hear, hear! - and the economic and social wel- 3697

May 6, 1981 Tape NO. 1324 EL - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, I look at and I do not desire to get on with the statements that the hon. the Prime Minister comes down here-~nd the hon. gentlemen there opposite would like to characterize it as being a holding out of the olive branch and maybe it is, but if the Right Hon­ ourable gentleman, the Prime Minister of Canada wishes to take a different tack than he has taken in the past, I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, the most appropriate means of doing that is by communicating from the head of the national government to the head of the provincial government and not to a meeting of party hacks which was financed by the contractors who are supporting the Liberal Party. down to it, Mr. Speaker, - AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : MR. MARSHALL: And , Mr. Speaker, when you come Hear that 'Morgan'. Order, please! I do not see, Mr. Speaker, any evidence from what the hon. the Prime Minister has said, any evidence of any conciliatory manner. I have heard it re­ ported, although I did not listen, Mr.

Speaker, to what he said, I am not in the habit of wanting to particularly spend my even­ ings listening to a speech by the hon. gentleman 1 but when he gets on the - when he is reported on the public airwaves of this Prov­ ince as calling his couterpart power hungry, I guess we know Mr. Speaker, who is in a confrontational position. I do not think that there was any more cynical statement that has ever been made bya leader of the federal government than what was reported by the hon.

Leader when he said, ' if the Premier wants to put his power through Quebec 1 let him::. string lines through Quebec' , or words to that effect. I believe that is what he is quoted as saying. 3698 , ..

May 6, 1981 Tape No. 1324 ~ EL - 3 MR. MARSHALL: That, Mr. Speaker, is a stat~ment of extreme cynicism. It does not, Mr. Speaker - MR. HANCOCK: (Inaudible) MR.SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: It does not indicate to me, Mr. Speaker, a statement of a man who is of a conciliatory nature who wishes to 1 in his words 1 negotiateJ we say discuss in good faith to give the people of this Province the same rights as they have in other provinces. It does not indicate- 3.nd what about that particular situation, Mr. Speaker? Where do the Opposition stand on that?

That is a national disgrace, the very fact that the Minister of Justice (Mr. Chretien) ,the other day when he was down,stated that there could be no power corr­ idor through Quebec until we had an agreement. Now, Mr. Speaker, there has been presented to the Federal Government a letter of intent from the Power Authority,State of New York 1 and what is happening, Mr . Speaker, with respect to all of this?

It all translates very sadly back once again to the position where we have only seven seats in the central govern- ment and Ontario and Quebec are pulling the strings or boarding up the boundaries or whatever have you.And it is rather unfortunate, Mr. Speaker, when one gets up on this side and speaks for provincial rights from time to time the hon. gentlemen there opposite, the only solace they have is to say, anti-confederate,against Confederation and all of these part­ icular things. Mr.

Speaker, we are as much Can­ adians as the hon. gentlemen there opposite, would that the hon. gentlemen there opposite were as much Newfoundlanders and exhibited that they were as much Newfoundlanders as the gentlemen on this side. 3699

May 6, 1981 Tape No . 1324 EL - 4 MR. MARSHALL: I had somebody, M:t. Speaker, just say to me yesterday that he had vo.ted Liberal on several occ­ asions, he is an independent voter 1 but he said he does not, he cannot se.e with the stand of the Provincial Liberal Party with respect to our offshore resources,how he could ever call himself a Newfoundlander and cast a ballot for them again while they maintain their present position. And that is it, Mr. Speaker. If the hon. gentlemen want to say that we are 3700

May 6, 1981, Tape l325, Page 1 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER(Baird): MR. MARSHALL: anti-Confederate­ Oh, oh_! Order, please! -I would like to turn it around on a positive basis and say it is time for the bon. gentlemen to be pro-Newfoundland - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: - and to be for Newfoundland and at the same time they can be for Canada. But beli _eve you me, Mr. Speaker, let me say this in closing, number one, this government has always believed that the constitutional process is the manner for the resolution of this particular matter.

The fact of the matter is that the federal government is attempting - there is no little significance to the fact that the Right Honourable Prime Minister yesterday on TV mentioned the SIU case. I am sure he is too busy to know all of the labour relations matters that are before the courts from time to time. So we know what the bon. gentleman there opposite, what their intent is. But the fact of the matter is, Mr. Speaker, we believe discussion, number one, we believe through the constitutional process that this matter should be resolved, and, Mr.

Speaker, the way in which . this particular matter has been addressed by the bon. gentlemen there opposite certainly leaves them lacking now as never before. Because we have only seven seats in Ottawa, we require, need the support of all Newfoundlanders in this great matter which is so vital to our economic and social well being. We do not require weasle words which come from the Opposition, as they come, we do not - Mr. Speaker, to hear of them getting ·UP at their do last night, which, as I say, was paid for by 3701

May 6, l98l, Tape 1325, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: were their friends - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. MARSHALL: those contractors who Hear, hear~ The hon. gentlemen said they were their contractors, were their friends, who were bound and determined to get them back into power in the hopes that they will get such things as the Public Tender Act, and what have you, amended. But to see, Mr. Speaker, Newfoundlanders getting up and applauding a spectacle like that makes one wonder how they got the gaul to reside in this Province, let alone purport to attempt to represent the interests of Newfoundlanders.

If the hon. gentlemen there opposite want to represent the interests of New£oundlanders, let them take a stand for Newfoundland, Mr. Speaker, let them take a stand for Newfoundland so that we can do someth~ng to counteract the fact that we have only seven seats in Ottawa as apart from the two Central provinces of Canada. So, Mr. Speaker, that is our position. I congratulate the member for Baie Verte White Bay (Mr. Rid