I LE GISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA Monday, 26 April, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon . D. James Walding (St. Vital): Presenting Petitions ... Reading and Receiving Petitions ... Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Co mm i ttees. MI NISTERIAL STATEMEN TS AND TABLING OF REP ORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consu­ me r and Corporate Affairs. HON . EUGENE KOST YRA (S even Oak s): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to inform the House today that copies of Bill No. 2, The Residential Rent Regulation Act, will be distributed to all members this afternoon.

In view of the high level of public interest in this legislation, along with copies of this statement, I am including copies of news releases that will be issued thi s afternoon. It has been previously indicated that the Bill will provide for the setting of threshold rent increases by regulation. I now wish to inform the memb ers of the House that the threshold for rent increases, retroactive to Janu­ ary 1 st, 1982, and for the balance of 1982 is proposed to be 9 percent. This figure takes into account two factors, increase in actual operating costs and an economic adjust me nt.

The govern ment has agreed that this will be the threshold set out in regulations after the Act is passed and proclai me d. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. GARY FILMON (Tuxedo): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We, on this side, thank the Minister for his announce ment and for providing the information that has been enquired about and alluded to in many dis­ cussions thus far since the proposal of this Act was put forth as part of the govern me nt's promises during its cam paign.

We, as always of course, support a fair and equitable system of rents for those who live in the residential rental market in this province. I know that we, along with many thousands of Manitobans who will be affected, both tenants and landlords by the imp lem entation of this Act, are anxious to read it, review it and bring forward our comm ents for the benefit of the government in reviewing and dealing with this legislation as it goes through the House. So, we thank the Minister for the announce ment and we're looking forward to reviewing it and bringing forth mo re definitive co mm ents in the near future. MR.

SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ... Introduction of Bills INTR ODUC TION OF GUES TS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, can I direct the attention of honourable mem bers to the gallery where we have 70 students, Grades 8 and 9 standing of the John Henderson Junior High School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Rams ay and Mr. Lynch. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Finance. On behalf of all the honourable memb ers, I wel­ come you here this afternoon. ORAL QU ESTIO NS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. BUD SH ERMAN (Fort Garr y): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Honourable the First Minister and I would ask hi m, Sir, notwithstanding the im portant announcement just made by the Minister of Consu­ me r and Corporate Affairs whether, in view of the announcement ma de on Friday by the Minister of Energy and Mines with respect to layoffs and cut­ backs at the Man For project in Northern Manitoba, it's the intention of the First Minister and his government to continue to ma ke major announ cements of that kind outside the House rather than inside the House? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HO N. HOW ARD PAWLEY (Selkir k): Mr.

Speaker, I understand the concerns expressed by the Member for Fort Garry but I want to advise the Member for Fort Garry that I do believe that the Minister did what was ri ght under the circumst ances. The Minister travelled to The Pas, he spoke to the workers that would be affected directly by the layoffs so that they would indeed find out the news first. I thi nk, Mr.

Speaker, that is very im portant, in our society, that when indeed the livelihood of me n and women are being affected that they should hear it first from govern me nt, not through the news, not through statements in the House but, when we're dealing with a matter as serious as that, that it should indeed be provided by the Minister to those that are affected directly. I' m pleased to advise you, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Energy did indeed advise the people that were involved directly, so they would get the news first and not receive it secondhand by way of a report from the Legislature.

So, insofar as the workers the m­ selves, I think it was the best course of action, Mr. Speaker. MR. SHE RMAN: Mr . Speaker, there is no quarrel with the principle of telling the workers first. The question is whether it is the intention of this government to arrange the ti metabling of such announcements in the future in such a way as to preclude that announce­ ments being made in the Legislature particularly on . the last day of the working week when the Legislature is recessing for the weekend.

Is it the govern ment's intention to ignore the mechanics of tim etabling for such announ cem ents that could be put in place to ensure that the workers were infor me d first and the Legislature was also informed sim ultaneously? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I think this government 1817

Monday, 26 April, 1982 propor tion ate to other governme nts has, indeed, taken advantage of providing more state ments in this House than has, indeed, been the case before.

In sofar as the Friday annou ncement, I believe the Min ister, indeed, issued that information here at 12 :00 o'c lock, not ahead but at the same time that the workers as a whole wo uld receive that information from the local media and ttie Min ister, I think, proper ly honoured the understariding that he had given to those he had spoken to on Thursday in The Pas that they wou ld, indeed, hear that news not after but at least simul­ taneous with the release of the information here.

I think the Min ister did the right thing insofar as the families that, indeed, must be very worried and very upset by what is the inevita ble result of the slowdown re the lumber and pulp indus try that he made that kind of arrangement. In fact, I would commend him for having done so, Mr. Speake r. MR. SHE RM AN: Mr. Sp eaker, a final suppleme nt ary.

In conti nuin g to do the right thing as the First Min ister puts it, and with which the opp osition has no quarrel, will the First Minis ter undertake in this Ho use to assure that the rig hter thing will be done in future and that the elected represe ntati ves of the peo ple who have a question period at 10:00 o'c lock on Friday mornin g and who are not in a po sition to ask que stion of the government after 11 :00 o'c lock on Friday morn­ ing for the remainder of that week, are proper ly advised of major and sign ificant announc ements of this kind affecting the well-being of many hundreds of Man itobans and the economy of this pr ov ince?

MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Spea ker, I would remind the hon­ ourable mem ber this is no t a program or a policy announc ement. It was an announc ement pert aining to the la yo ff of empl oyees at Man For. So far as it being a po licy or prog ram, it certai nly was not and therefore I think it does fall into a differe nt realm altogether than that of an annou ncement pert aining to a polic y or pr ogram.

Ins ofar as the timing, it's my underst anding that the local news outlet in The Pas wo uld not have been able to release that information before 12 :00 o' clock; cer­ tainly they wou ld not have been able to release it in time to head off the news that had been released during the question period on Friday. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Mem ber for Turtle Mount ain. MR. A. BRIAN RANSOM (Turtle Mounta in): Mr. Spea ker, my question is for the First Min ister. I wonder if the First Min ister will advise the Hous e what day the Budge t will be brought down? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, the date is not deter­ mined pre cisely but it will be ap prox imately the mid­ dle part of May. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, will the First Min ister confi rm that ther e will be a sales tax increase in the Budge t? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I turn to you whether or not such a question is in order. I believe it not to be in order. A question of Bud get is certainly out of order.

The Min ister knows full well the difficult circumstan­ ces under which we are work ing in regard to the prepar ation of Budget, but I'm not going to get into spec ific questions pert aining to whether or not some­ thing will occur arising from the Bud get. That is why the Budget will be tabled in the pro per manner. The Min ister, however, does know of the difficult choices that are confro nting us in every respect . MR. RAN SOM : Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker. While in Opp osition the New Dem ocrat ic Party stro ngly op posed the ad valorem tax. Since.c oming to gov­ ernment they have raised that tax twice.

I wonde r if the people of Man itoba can expect any relief from that or will this be another broken promise? MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Spea ker, I do ask you whether or not questions pert aining to information in the Bud get are in order in this Chamber? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. I believe the honour­ able member is entitled to ask the sort of questions that he has. The members of the Treasury Branch are free to answer them or not to answer them as they fit. The Honour able First Minister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Sp eaker, Budget questions will be answered with the delivery of the Budget in this Cham ber and I' m certainly not going to be answering yes or no to the spec ific questions pertai ning to whether this or whether that will be in the Budge t. That information will be prov ided by the Mini ster of Fina nce when he, indeed, does table his Budge t in the normal way at the no rmal time, Mr. Sp eaker. MR. SPEA KER: The Honour able Mem be r for Roblin-Russell. 1818 MR. J. WALLY McKE NZIE (Roblin-Ru ssell): Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I have a question for the Honour ­ able Min ister of Health.

I wonder can the Honour able Min ister of Health advise the House, and espe cially the students and teachers, parents and trustees in Inte r-Mountain School Division if it's fit, safe and proper to re-open the Gra ndview School tomorrow after the th ree-day examination of the possi ble health hazards? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minister of Health. HON. LAUR ENT DESJ ARD INS (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, the latest information was handed to me just as I enter ed this House. So with leave of the House to give the information, i'm ready to read the short memo that I have, but I have to ask leave at this time. MR.

SPEAKER: Does the Min ister have leave? (Ag reed). MINI STERIAL STATE ME NTS AND TAB LING OF REPOR TS (Cont'

d) MR. DE SJARD INS: The Department of Health, Med­ ical Public Health, Dr . W.G . French and Dr. Eric Sigurdson of Dau phin continue to maintain the lead

• Monday, 26 April, 1982 role in the investigation and action at the Grandview School. Environmental Management Division staff are continuing to provide a support service. On Friday, April 23 and Saturday, April 24, 1982 Environmental Management Division staff, local Pub­ lic Health Inspectors in Dauphin and Air Pollution Control staff of Winnipeg established continuous monitoring for carbon monoxide. Drager tubes were also used for carbon monoxide, nitrous oxide and carbon dioxide. Detectable levels were not recorded. On Sunday April 25, 1982 Don McLean, Assistant Deputy Minister of Health advised Dr.

Sigurdson who had been requested to attend a school board meeting at Grandview at 2:30 p.m. to decide on school open­ ing. It was agreed that teachers should return Mon­ day, April 26, 1982 and students on Tuesday, April 27, 1982. On Monday April 26, 1982, Dr. French advised the results on students indicating a need to investigate carbon monoxide levels and carbon dioxide levels in the school in more detail, particularly the stage and music room areas due to abnormal Carbic C Hemo­ globin levels. Thi s diagnostic evidence became avail­ able only on April 26, 1982.

On receipt of thi s information the Environmental Management Division, the Dauphin inspection staff are proceeding to the school to continue monitoring, and Air Pollution Control staff from Winnipeg are proceeding to Grandview today to continue the con­ tinuous monitoring equipment and investigate the carbon monoxide source in more detail. Thi s includes the ventilation system which may require immediate improvements and the use of the school incinerator. The Mechanical and Engineering Division of Labour and Manpower is being requested to inspect the heat­ ing and circulation systems.

Environmental Manage­ ment Division staff is maintaining close liaison with Medical Public Health and further action will be taken in response to the medical direction. The medical review is continuing. ORAL QU ESTIONS (Cont'

d) MR. SPE AKER: The Ho nourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HA RRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Natural Resources. Information over the weekend leads me to believe a meeting took place between members of the govern­ ment and officials of the Peguis Indian Band having to do with the longstanding flooding problems on the Fi she r River and the Peguis Indian Band.

I wonder if the Minister can confirm whether the government has agreed to depart from the practice that has been the case over many years to fund up to 40 percent of the flood damage costs incurred by the Band and indeed in future construction projects involved in the reliev­ ing of the problem. Can the Minister of Natural Resources confirm that obligation has been assumed by this government on beh alf of the people of Manitoba? MR. SPEA KE R: The Ho nourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON . AL MACKL ING (St. James): Mr. Speaker, in respect to the matters that the honourable member raises.

It is true that recurring problems again result from flooding of the Fisher River and a meeting was held in respect to that issue with the Band. My col­ league, Mr. Uruski was present during those discus­ sions; my Deputy Minister was there. I believe that the understanding the honourable member has indicated in respect to a 40 percent sharing was the position that was articulated, but that matter has not been finally discussed. There has to be discussion, I assume, with the Band and Department of Indian Affairs and so on.

It will come back for further review but, cer­ tainly that area of sharing was under consideration or will be under consideration. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to him or indeed to the Minister of Agriculture who was present at the meeting. I think both the Ministers can confirm that the practised date has been that the Federal Gov­ ernment has assumed its 100-percent responsibility in these instances, just as it assumes 100-percent responsibility in the flood costs occurred on the Rousseau Indian Reserve; that's located in the consti­ tuency of my colleague, the Honourable Member for Emerson.

What I'm asking for, is this a major policy departure or, indeed, is it going to start taking the Federal Government off the hook in a different way, if it so happens to be in the constituency of an NOP elected member such as the Minister of Agriculture, or will the Rousseau Indian Band be the recipient of 40-percent provincial costs of future flooding in that location as well? MR. MACKL ING: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member can be assured that no way do we as a gov­ ernment want to reduce the amount of cost-sharing that the Federal Government has been obliged or felt morally obligated to provide in the past.

We certainly do not want to reduce the amount of assistance that the Federal Government should be providing in respect to projects within the province which would include that area. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a further supplementary question. Can the Minister confirm that it has been the practice - and we've had a great deal of flood expe­ rience; we've experienced a great deal of damage - that in those areas that were 1 DO-percent federal responsibility, i.e. Indian reserves, that the Federal Government picked up 100 percent of the cost? 1819 MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I'm not in a position to reflect with precision what the past policy guidelines were. The honourable member says it was 100 per­ cent, l_'m not familiar with that, but I can indicate that it will be our intention to ensure that the Federal Gov­ ernment pays as much money under any settlement proposal or any development proposal in this situa­ tion as they would in any other. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, one final question.

I would hope firstly, and I ask the question to the Minister, to the government, that it not now develop a multi­ geared program of assistance with respect to various regions of the province, depending on their location,

Monday, 26 April, 1982 and secondly, the question is: why are we prepa red to increase our provincial commitment, in this instance of flood costs at the time we're reducing, or asking the municip al officials to reduce the traditional provi ncial commitment to the valley dykes in the commun ities of Morris, Let ellier, St. Jean, St. Adolphe and Emer son with which the Min ister is qu ite fam iliar? It seems to a contr adiction.

In this case the province is pressing for reduction of its obligations; in the case of the Peguis Indian Band we are seemingly accepting a far higher, 40 percent higher, obligation than heretofore has been the case. MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I don't accept the position that the honourable member is sugges ting that this govern ment has adopted. He knows that I have had a further meeting with the communities in respect to the valley dykes and the province is funding on the same level as it did in the past -that is 50 percent .

The only reduction in funding occurred as a result of the stated policy inten tion of the Federal Go vernment. Pursuant to that matter, while I have the floor, I' ll indicate that at the request of those commun­ ities I have written a letter to the Min ister responsible in Ottawa and have been in telephone conv ersation with him about the contents of my letter. What he has indicated in the course of his question as being the Man itoba pol icy is not the Man itoba pol icy. We are continuing to fund 50 percent of the cost of the valley dykes.

In respect to the Peguis and the Fisher River prob­ lem, I've indicated that in no way do we want to depart from the maximum participation from a cost point of view of the Federal Go vern ment. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Turtle Mountai n. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, in the weekend press there was a situation outlined involvi ng the Federal Tax Depar tment and their seizure of assets of a cou­ ple from St. Jame s. On the surface, the description of the situation is one that I find rather alarming.

Although I know that the Min ister of Finance for Man itoba has no direct respon sibility, I wonder if the Mini ster could advise the Hou se whether or not he has taken up on himself to have some sort of investigation done to satisfy himself that this procedure used by the Federal Go vern ment has indeed been done in the proper fashion and that the rights of the people involved have been protected? MR . SPEAKER: The Honou rable Min ister of Financ e. HON. VIC SCHR OEDER (R ossmere): Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker. Yes.

I have asked my depar tment to con tact the federal qepar tment involv ed to ask for an indica­ tion as to what exactly did happen there and I ex pect to get a report sometime in the near fut\Jre. I might say, that with respect to this specific occurrence, I don't think it wo uld be appropria te to be releasing any information because of the fact that the tax-gathering type of opera tion of the Federal Gov ernment is some­ thing whjch is considered to be information which is confidential as between the Revenue Depar tment and the taxpayer.

I have also been in touch with the law firm which is acting for the particular taxpayer. I haven't had com­ munications back from that lawyer but certainly I wo uldn't be prepar ed to make any statement about this specific case without the appr oval of the individ­ ual involved. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Sp eaker, I want to make it clear that I' m not asking the Honour able Min ister for spe­ cific information; I' m asking the Honou rable Minis ter if he will conduct sufficient investigation to assure himself and hence to allow him to assure the Hou se that the investigation has been done according to law and that the rights of the people involved have been prope rly protected. MR. SCHROEDE R: Yes, Mr . Sp eaker, I can give the honour able member the assurance that invest igation can be carried out and that I will report on that issue to the Ho use. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for St. No rbert. MR.

G.W.J. (Gerry) MER CI ER (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker. my question is to the Fi rst Min ister. In view of the Fi rst Minister's election promise in writi ng, gua­ ranteed and signed by him, to the effect that Man itoba New Democr ats would provide security from layoffs, up to 1 2-month's notice or compensation to employees wo uld be required, my question to the First Min ister is: is he implementing this promise with respect to the ManFor layoffs? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able First Minis ter. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Sp eaker, that similar kind of ques­ tion was posed a week ago by the honourable member.

I indicated to the honour able member that it perta ined to chan ges in The Emp loyment St andards Act, and that was a matter that the Min ister of Labour had under his review at the present time: that the commit­ ment re changes to The Em ployment Standar ds Act, in order to be more equ itable, was one that we did accept to undertake during our term in office. MR. ME RCIE R: Mr. Sp eaker. my supplemen tary then is to the Min ister of Labour. Does he intend to intro­ duce amend ments to The Em ployment Standards Act to implement these prom ises at this Sess ion of the Legislature? 1820 MR. SCHROE DER: Mr .

Sp eaker, the Member for St. Norbert keeps referring to these election prom ises.

I refe r him to a copy of the speech that his leader made in Rossmere in 19 77 where he was promising bal­ anced budgets, which they didn't produce; where he was promising assistance for people to obtain hous­ ing, which he didn't produce; where he prom ised inn er-city renewal which he didn't produce; where he prom ised, indeed, that they were going to do some­ thing to build more nursing homes and senior citizens homes and the first thing they did when they came to power was to freeze construction of senior citizen's and nursing homes. So, Mr. Sp eaker, I wou ld just ask the member to give us time.

We have fo ur years; we

• Monday, 26 April, 1982 expect that we will, in fact, be able to implement all of our promises, unlike the previous government, which was able to deliver on very few of theirs. MR. SPE AK ER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR . ALBERT DRIED GER (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the Federal Agriculture Minister's statement on Friday in Vita that it is unlikely that he will bail out provincial stabiliza­ tion, livestock stabilization programs; and

whereas the hog stabilization in place right now terminates in December, could the Mi nister indicate whether he's now prepared to proceed with a Stabilization Pro­ gram for the hog producers so that it will be in place when the present program ends? MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HO N. BILL URUS KI (Interl ake): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I should mention to the honourable member that we've had initial discussions with the Manitoba Hog Producers' Marketin g Board and producers indi­ vidually as well.

I've indicated to them that and I've given them our support for their position towards a national stabiliza­ tion plan. We have indicated we will want to review with them and discuss further, any future proposals they might have with respect to an ongoing stabiliza­ tion program in this province. MR. DRIEDGE R: To the same Minister, in view of the Minister's statement at a hog producers' meeting some time ago that he would be prepared to work out a cost-sharing formula with the hog industry, could the Minister indicate what kind of formula he is proposing? MR. URU SKI: Mr.

Speakerrl want to assure the hon­ ourable member that we will want to sit down and discuss the implications and any views the Producer Board might have with respect to any future program. There have been no direct work or details developed at this point in time. There have been preliminary discussions with them vis-a-vis the present Stabiliza­ tion Program which we are now funding because there wasn't adequate funding provided by the pre- vious administration. · MR.

DRIED GER: To the same Minister, is this Minis­ ter going to consult with hog producer groups for their input into this program or is he going to just contact certain individuals as he did when he imple­ mented his beef stabilization program? MR. URU SKI : Mr. Speaker, the honourable member makes an assumption which is totally out of place and inaccurate. He doesn't wish to accept the statements I have made in this House whereby we have accepted basically, the principles of a plan that was proposed by MCPA dealing with various levels of insurance. We have modified it somewhat, but we have consulted with them.

The Manitoba Farm Bureau made presentations to 1821 the Cabinet and MCPA is a member of the Manitoba Farm Bureau. I've had meetings with various pro­ ducer groups as well as other organizations, as well as producers.

I don't accept the principle and the assumption of the honourable member that there has not been con­ sultation and, in fact, the producer groups which have been established by our government in five regional committees, will be discussing the very details and best ways to advise us as to be able to implement this plan and the producers will be directly involved in this program by attending meetings, by having the advi­ sory groups, they will be involved in making their own program.

We have established the principles of the program, but the producers will be involved in advis­ ing us as to the best way to implement this program. MINISTE RIAL STATEME NTS AND TAB LIN G OF REPO RTS (Cont'

d) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DES JARDIN S: Mr. Speaker, I've received the latest bulletin on the Grandview situation I'd like to share with the House because there are some changes. "Results of the blood tests arrived and carbon mon­ oxide showed up in all of the tests. At this time it has not been determined why carbon monoxide was present on those days.

It should be noted that blood samples were taken randomly, specifically blood samples were taken from three students only." On Sunday afternoon it was decided to open the school today for teachering service as I mentioned earlier, and bring the students in on Tuesday. In light of the results of the blood tests, the superintendent is unsure of the action the Board will take. The Board will be meeting at 3:0 0 p.m. today to review the matter.

Apparently there are two alternatives that are open to the Board; keep the school closed until the cause of the carbon monoxide is determined - and this would entail making arrangements for alternative facilities to house the students - or, open the school and monitor the condition of the air and if carbon monox­ ide is detected, close the school again. The superintendent, Mr. Graves, advised that a government official is on his way this afternoon to test the condition of the air in the school. ORAL QUE STIONS (Cont'

d) MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. ORI EDGE R: Mr. Speaker, I have one more ques­ tion for the Minister of Agriculture. The Federal Agri­ culture Minister was promoting the supply manage­ ment for beef at the Vita meeting. Could the Minister indicate whether he supports the concept of supply management in beef? MR. SPE AKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. URU SKI: Mr. Speaker, we do support the aspects of providing producers with a stable return based on the cost of production. In terms of Canadian produc-

Monda y, 26 April, 1982 tion , supp ly in terms of re ducing supply is not a prob­ lem because we in Cana da, have yet to be able to produce enough beef to feed our own peo ple. It would have to be a program that would encourage the increased supply of beef in this country prov ided, of course, the incentive would be that prod ucers wo uld be able to realize a return to cover their costs of production and some return for their labours. We cer­ tainly would have no dif ficulty with that. MR. SPEAKE R: The Honou rable Mem ber for Minne dosa. MR. DAVID R. (Dave) BLAKE (Mlnnedosa): Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker.

On Th ursday last the Acti ng Minis­ ter of Agricu lture took as notice to two or three ques­ tions I asked of the Min ister. I wonde r if he's had an oppo rtun ity to look at those in relation to the re build­ ing of the stockyards in Brandon. MR. UR USKI: Mr. Speake r, I did have those ques­ tions recorded. I could only comment generally because I was away at anothe r engagement and didn' t go back to the office when I came here.

But I could tell the· honourable member that we certainly are co­ operating with the Manitoba Pool Elev ators and if there is any way that we can prov ide them with help - in fact, we've allowed some of our staff to assist them in looking at details that they are now pursuing - we are doing so to try and co-operate with them. MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mem ber for La Vere ndrye. MR. ROBERT (Bob) BAN MAN (La Verendrye): Thank you, Mr . Speake r.

I direct my que stion to the First Min ister arising from answers to quest ions I posed to him last Wed nesday, with regards to the questions asked by the Mem ber for St. Norbert today. I wo nder if he could confirm to the House that ManFo r is a wholly-owned Man itoba company? MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable First Min ister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr . Sp eaker, I believe that's a matter of record which the honourable member has access to just as well as members of the Treasury Bench. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr . Sp eaker.

I wonde r if the First Minis ter could confirm that no legislation is req uired with regard to layoffs in this particular instance . since it is a wholly-owned Manit oba Crown Corpo ration and that in this particu lar instance we don't need any legislation and the govern ment is not pract ising what they pro mised. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Sp eaker, I want to comment to the honourable member that I can reca ll the days when it was suggested by hon ourable members across the way that we were interfe ring with the operat ions of Man itoba Crown corpo rat ions, re quiring them to undertake certain actions and laws that were not necessarily applic able with the laws of the Province of Man itoba. Now it'seems to me, Mr. Sp eaker, that we've gone full circle and I'm hearing rep rese ntations across the way that we do that which we have been condem ned for in the past. MR. BAN MAN: Mr .

Sp eaker, in light of the promises made with regard to providing at least 12 months notice of layoff before any layoffs would occur, is the First Mjnister saying now that was, as my colleague put it, just a pro mise? That in this particular instance they have a concrete avenue of app roaching this and practising what they're preac hing? Is he saying to the people of Manitoba it's okay if the government does it, i f we lay off peo ple at Man For or lay people off in Crown corpo rations, but the private sector better not do it and we're going to go after those people? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Spe aker, members across the way do not appea r to yet understand that this govern ment is moving very quickly to implement its pro mises. We have a four-year mandate. We've already, Mr. Sp eaker, impl emen ted 10 of the 15 main commitments we made during the campaign. I wo uld inv ite yo u to compare that record with the four-year record of the previous governme nt. We're implementi ng the Eme rgency In terest Rate Relief Program; the Rental Control Program; a res­ tored health care system; income stabilization for beef; const ructi on of sen ior citizens homes; new northern polic ies that are under way.

We're also implemen ting the Main Street Program, the expan­ sion of Pharmacare; the expansion of children's den­ tal care and Farm land Protect ion legislation. 1822 Mr. Speake r, if you compare that with the very dis­ mal record of fulfil ling campaign commitme nts in 1977, with the very good start that this govern ment has accompl ished in the first four to five months of its governme nt, then I think, Mr . Sp eaker, that Man ito­ bans are in a very clear position as to which party indeed, is taking election commitments in a serious way. MR. BAN MAN: Mr. Sp eaker, a supp lementary to the First Minis ter.

On Wednesday he said there was quite a differe nce between the termination of jobs because of bankru ptcies, or layoffs . At that time he made a distinction and left a distinct impress ion in this Ho use that if there were layoffs which would occur because of a lack of activity in the economic field, that was tota lly different and in that particular instan ce, their election pro mise would be carried forward. What he is tel ling us today is it doesn't matter if it's layoffs, shut­ downs or any th ing, the y are not ready to fulfil! that pro mise. MR. PAWLEY: Mr .

Sp eaker, I can not help if the hon­ ourable member will want to believe what he wishes to hear. But I wou ld refer the honourable member to the com ments this morn ing by the Mayor of The Pas, who certainly is no political friend of this govern ment, that ex pressed the -( Int erjection)- well, he ran for your nomi nation in The Pas in the last election - Mr. Speaker, who said -( Int erjection)- well, Mr.

Sp eaker, if the honourable member is advising me that the Mayor of The Pas is a friend of this govern ment, then I am in deed pleased because it means in the space of some five months we're winning converts from the other side of the Cham ber.

--. . - Monday, 26 April, 1982 Mr. Speaker. what I do wish to refresh the mental powers of the Member for La Verendrye with, is that my Minister of Energy - and I again want to congratu­ late him for this, attended -( Interjection)- Mr. Speaker. if the honourable members would like to hear the response to the Minister's question - the honourable member did meet with the leadership of the union and others in The Pas. He outlined various alternatives that were available. It's my understanding, Mr.

Speaker. and I think indeed that this is an example of very responsible labour-management relationship under very difficult circumstances which the workers understood; which the Mayor of the Town of The Pas understood. They agreed that the government had no alternative but the approach it did undertake in the long-term interests. in the viability of the ManFor. Unlike, Mr.

Speaker, the situation which, indeed, I understand is there by way of documentation, when the previous government were advised in August of 198 1 that the inventory was far surpassing the demand, I believe it was by a ratio of 14 to 1, the former government simply advised at that time it wasn't in the public interest - of course, that was three months before the election of No vember 17 - to undertake any changes. MR. BAN MAN: I wonder it the First Minister could confirm that every time in the last several months that the Minister of Energy has gone to The Pas , he's been announcing layoffs? MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, ifthe honourable member -( Interjection)- Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Energy nor anyone on this side of the House appreciates having to announce layoffs. What I do, indeed, prefer as to previous approach those announcements are made to the workers themselves and to the local peo­ ple involved with municipal government at Le Pas; they're not made from a distance, Mr. Speaker, they're discussed with those that are most vitally affected. Mr. Speaker. various alternatives are discussed, joint committee is formed of management and ...

I know that honourable members don't like joint management-employee participation. They'd prefer to say confrontation but, that's not the way of this government, Mr. Speaker, that's not the way of this government. Mr. Speaker. what we are attempting to do, and this is of mutual interest to both the workers and Manfor in Le Pas. is reduce the ratio of inventory to demand in order to ensure the long-term viability of the opera­ tion at The Pas.

At the same time, the Minister. as he's mentioned in this House on different occasions - maybe the Member for La Verendrye was not present at the time - is working in order to bring about the necessary funding in order to provide modernization of the ManFor operation. the sawmill operation to ensure increased employment and viability in the years that lie ahead. So. Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member wants to talk about our record in The Pas, I invite him to com­ pare our approach to the - let me say, Mr.

Speaker, that I don't want to be unkind to the honourable members across the way - but, somewhat irrespon­ sible conduct of the previous government in respect to the ManFor situation. MR. BANM AN: I wonder if the First Minister could inform the House that under his approach, we now have the highest unemployment rates in the Province of Manitoba and we have growing welfare case loads within this province and that we are seeing a record number of bankruptcies, not according to the figures that I've put forward, but according to the figures that the member's colleagues in Ottawa are spouting.

In order words, we have had a dramatic increase in bankruptcies and unemployment since they took office. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, we fully understand the difficult situation that Canada is confronted with today and as a result of that, the Province of Manitoba, the result of the international recession. We also understand the impact that high interest rates have in respect to the total Canadian economy, the effects on individual provinces and particular regions such as Manitoba, regions of this country that are affected by high interest rate policies, the dislocation of capital that results from that.

We understand that very well and the honourable member's facts may or may not be correct. But I point out to him that. indeed, by way of some clear contrast with our sister Province of Saskatche­ wan bankruptcies in 1981 in Manitoba exceeded the number in Saskatchewan three to one. So, if the hon­ ourable member wants to bandy around figures I invite him to do so.

But what we are confronted with is the impact of the recession 19 80, 1981-82 upon Can­ ada, upon Manitoba; unfortunately Manitoba got an earlier taste of recession, because of their policies that had been adopted in 1978-79, than the rest of the Canadian population. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Time for question period has expired. Orders of the Day. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. COM MITTEE CHANGES HO N. ROLAND PENNER (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, may I announce a couple of changes please, with respect to Committees.

There will be a meeting of Law Amendments Tuesday, May 4, previously scheduled for Economic Development ManFor with that Com­ mittee to be rescheduled. Again with respect to Esti­ mates in the House following Health at the beginning . of next week I would assume, Finance instead of Edu­ cation, with Education to follow. ADJ OURNED DEB ATE ON CRO W RATE RE SOLUT ION MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, may I ask you please to call the adjourned debate on the motion of the Hon­ ourable Minister of Transport on the Crow rate? MR.

SPEAKER: On the proposed Resolution of the Honourable Minister of Government Services stand­ ing in the name of the Honourable Member for Por- 1823

Monday, 26 April, 1982 tage la Prairie. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Portage la Prairie, who took the adjournment, had intended to speak today but he is attending a meeting discussing the Crow in Portage la Prairie an d, hopefully, will be back tomorrow to discuss it. MR. SPEAKER: Is there any other memberthat wishes to speak on this Resolution this afternoon? The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. MURIE L SM ITH (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to address the actual Resolution on the Crow and I'd like to draw to the attention of the House that the Resolution on the order books is objecting, not to change, but to the method of change, to the unilateral action in which the Federal Government has intro­ duced this proposed change in the Crow rate and to the socially and economically unjust effects of that change. In their proposal they wish to remove the statutory grain rates and yet there is no parallel obli­ gation recognized that the CPR plow some its profits back into the railway development field.

Meanwhile we have seen from the CPR and in the course of time since there was the introduction of Crow rates and the parallel special concession to the CP R, millions and millions and millions of dollars flow out of the country as the CPR made investments around the world and did not plow back into the Canadian economy -spe­ cifically into the railway system -the profits that they derived from that original grant from the Government of Canada. Mr . Speaker, we recognize the need to improve railways. What we're querying in this Resolution, Mr. Speaker, is the method of improvement that's been proposed.

What we're concerned about, Mr. Speaker, iri addition to the method is the question of who bears the burde.n of this change and who reaps the benefit from it. The Liberal have been chastising all and sundry; they've been saying look forward not back­ ward. Our Conservative friends seem to say, it I can judge from the metric debate, look backwards, what has been is okay. What we're proposing is that it's important to look at where we've come from, where we're at and then decide where we're going and how we're going to get there. Let's look at the past in regard to the Crow.

The CPR received a deal from the people of Canada in terms of land with no tax. That looked good; we've benefited from that; we got a railway across the country which did -as the members opposite have spelled out in great detail and a deal of persuasiveness, I might add ­ help to build the country, to open it up to settlement. The farmers benefit in their turn from the other half of the bargain, Mr. Speaker; they benefited from a Crow rate, a regulated rate for the transportation of grain and we all benefited from that.

The prairies were pop­ ulated; we developed a viable agricultural industry here on the prairie and the volume of Canadian exports and the money that was available for the development of Canada went way up. The manufacturing industry did suffer some slight disadvantag ei from this arrangement and that is some­ thing we should look at, Mr. Speaker. But I submit that if we wish to help the manufacturing industry we must look at th.e problem in proportion and not assume that a complete elimination of the Crow rate will automati­ cally benefit that portion. Let's look at the present.

We have to acknowledge that each industry has its special problems, Mr. Speaker, the farming indus try has some very special problems. It exists in a context where its costs are steadily going up; its costs for fuel; its cost for machinery; its cost for chemicals, and its costs for credit, Mr. Speaker. Meanwhile, the price that the farming industry receives for its product stays rela­ tively stable; there is very little farmer control over that price. Meanwhile, the costs are shooting up in general and they're very unevenly distributed, Mr.

Speaker, because of the vast land area that farmers must work in and the very different distances that they must transport their crop to the markets and to the eleva­ tors. So, Mr. Speaker, in the farming industry some kind of managed marketing is necessary and some sort of public subsidy is necessary if, Mr. Speaker, we're going to preserve this industry for the greater benefit of all Canadians. Mr . Speaker, many farmers receive inadequate return for the labour that they put into their effort and that situation will be aggravated by the solution pro­ posed by the Liberal Government.

The solution pro­ posed is unjust, Mr. Speaker. They have with the stroke of a pen declared that the farmer should take a big cut in the benefit they get from their industry. Meanwhile, Mr. Speaker, they have set up a commit­ tee that makes recommendation to moderate the negative effects of that change. But, Mr. Speaker, setting up a committee in advance of making that decision might have made sense, then the farmers would have know what the trade-offs were. But, Mr.

Speaker, to set up a committee after the decision has been made to remove the Crow rates is, I submit, no guarantee to the farmers that they are going to receive a fair deal. It's not a process that I respect, Mr. Speaker, and I suspect it is not a process that the farmers of the west should agree to. So let's look to the future, it's important, Mr. Speaker, that we plan for change, that we not intro­ duce sudden shocks to any sector of the economy such that their ability to adjust and to make plans, to make adjustments, is minimized. We must plan for balanced regional development, Mr. Speaker.

After all that's what a lot of the rhetoric was about in the recent constitutional debate and yet, immediately on the passing - well before the passing of the Constitution repatriation - what are we finding, Mr. Speaker? We're finding a Federal Government callously willing to remove one of the necessary props that the western farmers have require d to or der to get a fair deal I n Confederation, Mr. Speaker. They have set the cause of balanced regional development backwards rather than fmwards. 1824 The changes they're proposing are aggravating the imbalance that we already have.

Even within the prairie region, Mr. Speaker, the effects of this change are not balanced. Manitoba and Manitoba farmers will suffer the most. It is estimated that the loss to the Manitoba economy will be in the neighborhood of $90 million. Saskatchewan will be affected moderately and the Province of Alberta will be affected

Monday, 26 April, 19 82 only sligh tly. The real purpose of the change, Mr. Speaker, has not been to assist the farmers. or I suspect even to gi ve them a slap in the face, though that may seem to be the effect, the purpose of the change is to move coal, sulphur and potash to ports mor e cheaply. Of course, the rai lways must be im proved to carry out this task. Mr . Speaker, the question we must address ourselves to is, how?

Over the years the Canadian Pacific, the other benefit ting partner to the early agreement when the Crow was established, the C.P. has built up an enor ­ mously profitable trans-national investment company; C.P. has in vested its profits abroad; C.P. has not re­ invested a reaso nable share of its profits in railway mai ntenance and in railway im provement. It's been estimated that funds in the neighb orhood of $2.3 bil­ lion, the amount required, Mr.

Speaker, to upgrade the railway in Cana da, that funds of that order, that have been gen erated internally in Canada, are being invested abr oad, and have been invested abroad. The mega sellout deal of the 18 80s is coming home to haunt the Federal Government and costs the people of Cana da, particularly the farmers of western Can­ ada, the ru ral com munities of western Can ada. The Lib erals in Ottawa are sti ll telling us that pro­ gr ess will result, Mr.

Speaker , they are saying we should move into the 20th Centur y and prepare for the 21s t Centur y; that we should look to the positiv e side, to the fact that we will im prove and incr ease our man ufactu ring sector, that we will in crease our capacity to process our raw materials. Admittedly, desirable goals and goals which I spend a lot of time promoti ng but, Mr . Speaker, the question is, how much will this measure im prove those ind ustries, those activities? How much, because is it a good bar­ gain to gi ve away 10 on one side in order to retain one on the other? It's not a good bargain, Mr. Speaker.

The beef industry could prosper from these changes but in the order of one tenth of what the gr ain ind ustry will lose. The memb ers opposite have said a lot about the CSP, the Ha rrowby oil crushing plant, saying that someh ow, by adopting a "don't change the Crow approach," that we're somehow jeopardi zing their chances for survival. Mr. Speaker, the futur e of the Harrowby crushing plant, as they have told us them­ selves, depends a great deal more on whether or not the Man itoba Government is going to match the Sas­ katchewan and Alberta subsid ies than it is going to depend on change s in the Crow.

Tho se factors. Mr. Speaker. are the ones that are affe cting the com peti­ tive ability of CSP . not the Crow rate. We've been told that the Port of Churchill will gain. Tha t may very well be tr ue, Mr . Speaker, but the ques­ tion we still must ask is not whether it will gain but how much it will gain and how much it will gain in propor­ tion to other things that are lost. Let's examine the !ruth of the matter, Mr. Speaker, all is not what it seems in the debate over the Crow.

There is going to be a slight in crease in beef production but I remind y.1u. eastern Cana da and Br itish Columb ia have inc entiv e programs in place for the beef ind ustry; we would have to match those in order to be comp eti­ tive. Alberta is going to be the chief benefactor in the beef in dus try because they cu rrently have a com parative advantage. They say we'll have lower cost feed gr ain in Mani­ toba. There will be some impr ovement because of that but because of the li mi ted size of our markets here in Man itoba the prices will not generate a big impr ove­ ment. Th ere were in place, Mr .

Speaker, between the years of 19 77 and 19 80. lower feed gr ain prices in Mani toba and yet there was no, I repeat, no incr ease in beef production. Why? Th ere were other factors that were involved; there was a lower consumer demand for beef. If we wish to export our beef to the Un ited States, Mr. Speaker, the extra transportation cost that we're going to have to add to our product will lower the price that the farmers receive and the net benefit to the Man itoba farmers may, in fact, be negative.

The loss of farm in come is going to be in the neigh­ borhood of 10 ti mes gr eater than any gains that can currently be projected from an impr oved man ufactur­ ing sector and beef industry sector. Think of the effect that will have on our rural commun ities. 18 25 Our man ufacturing sector could receive some imp etus. I kn ow that the Chamb er of Commer ce representatives are incl ined to feel that the slo w developm ent of man ufact uring in Ma nit oba can be solely attributed to differential transpor tation costs. Well, Mr.

Speaker , I wish the solution were as simp le as removing the Crow but I can tell you if each farm family has $500to $1 000 less to spend, that it will have an im pact on our local manuf acturers and our local industry on a scale that must be taken into account. Mr. Speaker, what we're calling for from the Federal Government is a willing ness to plan for balanced development that would harmon ize the needs of the manuf acturing sector and the farming sector of the producer and the consum er; a plan, Mr . Speaker, that would not play the strong against the weak. Mr.

Speaker, that is the purpose of this resolution, to call int o question the method of change and the reliabil ity, if you lik e, of the li beral promises that they're tryi ng to gi ve a fair deal to the west. I submit that the way they're going about it, Mr. Speaker, is not well desi gned to bring about a good benefit for the west, therefore I urge you all to vote solidly in favour of the resolution. MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Memb er for Virden. MR. HARRY GRAHAM (Virden): Would the Honour ­ able Mi nister submit to a question? MRS . SMIT H: Yes. Mr . Speaker. MR.

GRAHAM: In the int erests of retaining the Crow rate and beef production in Cana da, does the Mi nis ter also want the retention of the Feed Freight Assistance Program as well? MRS. SMI TH: Mr. Speaker, could I have the mem ber opposite repeat the question please? MR. GRAHAM: The Honour able Minis ter wants to retain or keep a level of beef production and has spoken in favour of retai ning the Crow rate. Do es she als o want to reta in the Feed Freight Assistance Program?

Monday, 26 April, 1982 MRS . SMITH: Mr. Speaker, what we want is a fair deal for both the gra in producers and the beef producers. The retent io n of a spe cific program is not the issue; the issue is whether there's a fair deal negotiated. So, Wf'! would be wil lin g to look at the total package and see if both the gra in farmer and the beef producer have a fair oppo rtunity to main tain the ir industry and get a good return. The retention of a si ngle factor is not at issue. It's the total package that's important. MR.

GRA H AM: Then, the Honourable Minis ter would want to tie the Feed Fre ig ht Assistance Program in wit h the Crow rate and reta in both, is that correct? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Health. MR. DESJARD INS: Mr. Speaker, the former Speaker certainly knows that this question is out of order. We've allowed the fi rst question. The question asked after a speech is just for clarific ation, not to invit e somebody to start another speech. We've invit ed our friend to

part icip ate and I think that we should refrain from start in g this procedure because there'll be no end to speech. This is in vitin g another speech. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Is any other member prepared to speak on the resolut io n? If not, it wil l stand in the name of the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. DESJARD INS: Mr. Speaker, before calling the next mo tio n, I'd like to inform the House that we'll receive a visit from the Li eutenant-Governor at 4:30 p.m. to pass The Paramutual Tax Act. Mr.

Speaker, I'd lik e to move, seconded by the Hon­ ourable Minis ter of Tourism and Econom ic Develop­ ment that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MR. SPEAKER: It's moved by the Honourable Minis ­ ter of Health and seconded by the Honourable Minis ­ ter of Econom ic Development that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself in to a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented. MATTER OF GRIEV ANCE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain.

MR. RANSOM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I'm takin g this opport unity to speak now, Mr. Speaker, because this government is break in g the trust that was placed in them by the people of this province last November. This government, Mr. Speaker, is show ing fi rst of all, that they can't be trusted to observe the trad itio ns of this House. Mr. Speaker, they're show in g that they can't be trusted to provide accurate information to the people of Manitoba and to the public, to the capital markets as well. Mr. Speaker, they can't be trusted to consult in a manner whi ch they sa id they would be consult ing.

They have said that they would have an open-door polic y wit h the people of Mani toba. In fact, we're see in g after five months that it is not work in g that way, Mr. Speaker. They can't be trusted to carry out their election promises wit h respect to econom ic development, employment and taxati on. The one thi ng we're fin din g, Mr. Speaker, that they can be trusted to do is to practice patronage to an extent that wouldn't have been thought possible to li sten to them a year ago when they were in oppos itio n. Mr. Speaker, let me first deal wit h the quest io n of the trad itio ns of the House.

Last Friday morn ing, the Crow Resolution was called by the Government House Leader as it had been called on a number of occasions. It was stand in g in the name of one of our members and as has often been the case in the House, the member asks that a Bil l of Resolution be allowed to stand. Trad itio n says, Mr. Speaker, that unless notice is giv en then that opport unit y to let the Bil l of Resolution stand is granted. Indeed, Sir, I believe your own comment or rul ing on the issue showed that to be the case, Mr.

Speaker, when you sa id, and I quote: 1826 "I t is a long standing pract ice and tra ditio n in this House that if a member is not prepared to speak on a parti cular mot io n that day that the House allow the matter to stand over wit h another member eligi ble or entitled to speak on that particular item if he wi shes to do so. When no one else wi shes to speak the matter stands in the name of the member who has adjourned debate. However, it is the entitlement of the House if they so wis h to insis t that the matter be dealt wit h and come to a vote if there is no one wil lin g to speak. Those are the rules.

That is the practice that we have continued." Indeed, Mr. Speaker, as you po in t out, the govern­ ment did have the ri ght to do what the Government House Leader called for but tra ditio n demanded that they should giv e notice pr io r to di sallow in g the debate to stand or to be adjourned by another member. There was never any in di catio n giv en to this House that it was necessary to conclude debate on the Crow Resolut io n by a spe cific date.

Indeed, this is sue has been going on for a great length of tim e and there's new information that continues to be made known vi rtually day by day, certa in ly week by week as more and more di scussion takes place in the country and new studies are undertaken. It only became evi dent on Fri day that the deadline which the honourable members opposite were work­ in g to was the Saskatchewan election. Mr. Speaker, what they were attempting to do was to force a vote, and in not bein g able to force a vote, Mr.

Speaker, at least they had hoped prio r to that, that they would be able to have members on this sid e of the House stand, speak on this issue and perhaps say something that they mig ht be able to explo it to the advantage of the ir colleagues in Saskatchewan. No w that was not a charge that we would have laid pr io r to last Fri day morn ing, Mr. Speaker, but when it became evident on Friday morn in g that they wanted to force a vote on this issue even though, for example, Mr.

Speaker, the Minis ter of Agri culture had not spoken on this Resolution, a Resolution that is that im portant to the agri cultural commun ity and the Min­ ister of Agri culture hasn't spoken and their House Leader wants to get up and force a vote to be taken

Monday, 26 April, 1982 without any notice having been given. Had he even stood the day before, Mr . Speaker, and said we're not going to allow this debate to stand any longer, then the Opposition would have been put on proper notice and we would have had no choice but to proceed the debate or let the issue come to a vote. Well, Mr . Speaker, the Member for St. James doesn't seem to understand the tradition but you, Sir, under­ stand the tradition and you put it on the record, Sir, on Friday, February 23 when you said that, indeed, this is the tradition of the House.

To have that sort of thing put forward by the Government House Leader, Sir, I find most disturbing and to have it happen on the same day that the Minister of Ene rgy and Mines is making a statement to the press which he denied to this House prior to that, at the same time as the Gov­ ernment House Leader was accusing the Opposition of not debating but of going into the halls and talking to the press. At that same moment, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Energy and Mines is making a statement to the press outside of this House. Mr . Speaker, that in itself is bad enough.

But, Sir, I would draw to your attention the fact that I have had a written question on the Order Paper for over two weeks dealing with the very question of layoffs at Man For. Sir, that question was placed on the Order Paper in written form asking that government about layoffs at Man For and what was being done to mitigate the problems that it was going to cause for people laid off. This government chose to ignore the fact that there was a question on the Order Paper and go outside of the House and make that information known to the press. Mr.

Speaker, there is no question in my mind but what the government could have made that announce­ ment on Thursday rather than on Friday. There's no reason in the world why they couldn't have had that announcement made at 2:0 0 o'clock on Thursday afternoon. The Minister could have risen in the House here, made a statement at the same time as the infor­ mation was being released in The Pas, the employees would have had the information at the same time that the people who are responsible for governing this province would get the information in this Chamber so, Mr .

Speaker, I regard that as absolutely inexcusa­ ble on the part of the government, especially when it's combined with the display that we saw concerning the Crow Resolution. I'm findi ng , Mr . Speaker, that we're having that sort of unilateral action on the part of the government even though they may have the right to do it. Tradition has said that they would not and we see again today, Sir , when the Government House Leader rises in this Chamber and makes a unilateral announcement about the order in which Estimates are going to be handled without ever having a word said to the Opposition.

I realize that it's the government's prerogative to call the order of Estimates in the House but it's tradition, Mr. Speaker, that the Government House Leader at least consults with the Opposition House Leader and sees whether or not that might be convenient for them. That was not done and we're finding that it is becoming more and more prevalent in the way that this government is handling the House. Sir, we know that the Legis lature has been in Ses­ sion now for over two months.

We're told that there are major bills yet to come and we haven't seen them yet, and I expect that some of those major pieces of legislation are going to come very late in the Session. Again, something that when that party was in Opposi­ tion, they decried very strongly that our government should bring any piece of legis lation in late in the Session. Well, Mr. Speaker, we're seeing how they are managing the Business of this House. Mr .

Speaker, in the area of information distribution, we have dealt with this question before but it must be stressed again and again that, to begin with, one of the first actions that this government took was to begin to politicize the Information Services Branch of the government by making it report to a political appointee in the Premier's office, something that has never been done before.

Government Information Services has always reported through the Civil Service and the Director of Information Services has reported to another civil servant, not to a political appointee in the Premier's office, to the very person who served as the Premier's executive assistant when he was Leader of the Oppo­ sition. That person was quickly elevated, Sir, to a salary well in the range of $40,000 a year and now has the Information Services reporting to him. One of the first things we say, Mr.

Speaker, was that information was being released from the Department of Finance with respect for example, to the spending Estimates of the government. Press releases were put out showing that the government was planning to have a 14.4 percent increase in spending, changing the base on which the spending Estimates had always been calculated in the past, because had the informa­ tion been put out in the way which it has normally been put out, Mr . Speaker, it would have shown of course that there was a 16.9 percent increase.

I know, Sir, that this sort of misinformation was not put forward by the professional staff in the Depart­ ment of Finance because those are very competent professional people, Sir, and consistency means something to them. They know the way that the information has been presented in the past has always been print over print. When this government took hold of the Information Services then they changed the system to try and ma ke it appear as though their expenditures were not going to be as large as they really are.

Well, Sir, it might have looked good at the time, they might have gotten a headline or two at the time, but in the long run of course it's going to look very bad for them because, Sir, I'm confident that before this year is out we're going to find that far from a 14. 4 percent increase, Sir, that this government is going to incur increases in spending in the neighbourhood of 20 percent. 1827 We already have seen many items that have been placed before the House now that were not included in the original Estimates tabled, even though the gov­ ernment knew that they were going to have to make provision for those.

They turn up almost every week, for instance, last week, Sir, we discovered that $6 00, 000 which had been budgeted to go towards the Music Building at Brandon University is not being budgeted in the up-coming year even though we're told the commitment still stands. Well, Sir , I'm not sure how a commitment of that nature stands when

Monday, 26 April, 1982 the money isn't included in the Estimates. We saw another example with the presentation of the prospectus which the Min ister of Financ e made to the capital marke ts.

Agai n, Sir. let me make it abso­ lutely clear. we're not talking about misinformat ion put forward by the professional staff of the Depar t­ ment of Fin ance, we're talking about inf ormation put forwar d by the Min ister of Finance and we' re ta lking about a situation, or where perhaps his colleagues have not made it known and did not make it known to the Min ister of Financ e, some of the changes in their policies that had taken place.

Because that prospec­ tus, Sir, would lead people to believe, pot ential inves­ tors to believe. ther e was for instance a Memor andum of Ag reement in place between the government and Interna tional Mineral with respect to the development of a potash mine; that there was a Memorandu m of Under stan ding between the government and the Alumi num Comp any of Canada with respect to the development of an aluminu m smelter in the province and, indeed, there was reference made to two or three other large projects as well.

What we discovered later, Sir , was that in fact that Le�ter of Intent and \hat Me morandum of Und erstand­ ing were no longer in place and that the informat ion which had been provided to the capital marke ts was, in fact. inaccurate. That, perhaps, was understand­ able because when the original prospectus was filed, when it was written at least, those things were true, Sir, because this government, the party now on this side of the Ho use, was in government and that Letter of Intent and that Memor andum of Un derstanding, etc .. were in place.

So when the prospectus was filed on the 23rd of December then those peo ple filing it at the official level had every reason to believe that those stateme nts were correct. But there was a supple men­ tal filed in March. Sir, and by that time the Min isters in this government knew full wel l where those negotia ­ tions stood and they knew tho se statement s made in the prospectus were not accurate.

Sir, we req uire of people filing a prospectus with our own Securities Commission in Mani toba, if any one of us were to file a prospectus for a comp any in Man itoba trying to encour age some investment, we would find that with in The Secu rities Act, for instance. it says that a prospectus shall provide full, true and plain disclosure of all mate rial facts relating to the security pro posed to be issued. That's fairly straight­ forward, Sir. but the prospectus filed by the Min ister of Finance would no t me et the criteria set down in this provin ce's Securities Act. It further says.

Sir, with respect to additional infor­ mation that, if a statement req uired to be contained in a prospect us would otherwise be mis leading the prospectus shall contai n such additional information, whether or not expr essly req uired to be contai ned in the prospectus. as may be necessary to make the required statement not misleading in the light of cir­ cumstan ces in which it is made. Again. Sir, we would require people seeking poten­ tial investors in this provinc e to do something which the Min ister of Finance has not seen fit to do when he goes abroad seeking to borrow hundreds of millions of dollars.

Sir. we will have mor e to say about that document in the futur e. but I draw to the attention of the Hou se the fact that figures dealing with the real gross provincia l product from 1976 to 1980 have all been changed from the prospectus filed in Jun e to the prospectus filed in December. It happens, Sir, that all of the figures relating to NOP years are up and all of the figures relating to Con servat ive years are down.

Sir, when we get to deal with the Estim ates of the Min ister of Finance we will be questioning very care­ fully what has happ ened to cause the revision of fig­ ures some five and six years into the past to the extent of 100 percent or more. Then, Mr. Sp eaker, we have the government's dis­ semi nation of informat ion concern ing the Crow rate debate.

I think it's probably fair to say that we are seeing civil servants used to present information to the public in this case in a way that I don't recall civil servants being asked to present information before, in that the in formation being presented is very selectiv e. It is not an effort, Sir, to place all of the informat ion relevant to the Crow rate debate before the public. What we have seen and what we are seeing is an effort by the government to place only that information before the public which is supp ortive of the govern­ me nt's position.

Sir, that begins -( Int erjection)- well the Member for Da uphin says, that's all there is, and that is an attitude of course which reflects the thinking of many of the members op posite. I won't say it reflects all of them, but there is only one positi on and that is the position that's taken by the N.D. Party. That pervades many areas, Sir, many areas where this govern ment doesn't acknowledge there are other legitimate posi­ tions that can be taken and that information points to other positions.

Ins tead, we have a situation wher e the Member for Da uphin says, there is only one posi­ tion and that's his position. Well, I don't subscribe to that, Sir, and I believe the public of Man itoba will not subscribe to that as wel l.

I hope this isn' t a trend that we' re going to see from the government, we will have this type of biased information being put forward through the Civil Service, entir ely legitimate of course for a po litician to stand and make his or her case·to the public, but when the Civil Service is involved to put forward only that information which is sup portive of the government position. then it becomes questiona ­ ble, Mr. Sp eaker, and we' re going to be watching that very carefully.

I'd like to comment a bit about the question of patronage with this govern ment as wel l, Sir. 1828 During the time that we were in govern ment ther e were many occasions when the New Democ rats spoke so strongly against the so-called political appoi ntees of the Cons ervative Government and of the patro nage that was practised by the Co nservat ive Govern ment, and we admit it.

Along with some of the members of the NO P, for instance, the former Member for ln kster who was still with the NOP for part of that time. acknowledged that a government had the right to appoi nt people to boards and comm issions and even to sen ior civil service levels, to appoint peo ple who were compa tible with the government's position and we didn't espe cially take except ion to that, Sir.

There were many peo ple in the New Democratic Party at that time that did take excep tion to it and so now when the y come into government we see wher e they really stand on that issue that, in fact, they have prac­ tised patronage to a greater extent then I would ever

- - Mo nday, 26 April, 19 82 have thought, Sir , in listen ing to their spee ches in this House and their comments in this Ho use for the four years previous. For instance, the appointment of the former Member for Seven Oaks as the Chairman of the Telephone Board and the former Member for St. Johns as the Chairman of Manit oba Hydro. The hiring of the member of this House, the former Member for The Pas, into a Dep uty Min ister's position in the govern­ ment.

Former Member for Radisson, Harry Shafransky, hired in as a Special Assistant to the Min ister of Transpor tation; former Mem ber for Rup ertsland, Harvey Bostro m, given a consulting cont ract. Mr. Speaker, the se members op posite -(In ter­ jection)- I hear the Mem ber for Thom pson say what about C. Smith?

What he doesn't acknowledge is that there is a civil service structure in the provinc e; there is a merit principle applied, or there was during our administrati on, when people could apply for posi­ tions and be selected and if they happened , Sir, to have some pol itical background that did not keep them from being emp loyed. For instance, when Ha rry Marden was hired to work for the gove rn ment, he was hired to a bulletin position through the Civil Service, Sir, and what did we get in the Ho use?

We had the members op posite stand and say that he wou ld be fired when they took over as govern ment. -(I nter ­ jection)- Wel l, I wo uldn't say that he was fired because I think that he probably realized the th reat that had been made by the New Democr ats when they were in opposition and took the oppor tun ity to go elsewhere for emplo yment. That's the sort of think that we'r e getting from the members op posite.

We' re seeing them hasten to change appoi ntm ents to the Boards and Comm is­ sions, Sir, in a way that was not practised before, peo ple getting letters saying: "Wel l, your appoi nt­ ment ex pires the end of Jun e," for instance, "but do you have any intention of stepping down earlier than that, because we may wish to appoint someone in you r place." Every thing is being done to get their people into place.

This is something that we would expe ct to happ en over time as a normal course of events, but what I don' t ex pect to see it done by peo­ ple who decried the same type of thing when they were in oppo sition. The same sort of thing applie d to advertising con­ tracts. The criticism that was levelled at the for mer government for its advertising contr acts and then we see this governme nt tur n about and very quickly awar d cont racts to the advertising firm that hand led their information, that handled their campaign during the election campaign.

That's fine, Sir, except they give the excuse of, well, we had to do it in a hurry, we didn't have much time and so this was why we gave it to this particular company. If they simply would come out and acknowledge the fact that; Yes, this advertis­ ing company handled all our business during the election and we won the election and therefore we' re going to reward them, then the public would know where they stood and we wou ld have an honest ans wer from the New Democr ats. Mr. Speaker, the members op posite prom ised con­ sultation.

They prom ised an open door policy, that they would be prepared to listen to the public; they promis ed, Mr. Sp eaker, that they would have an open door policy, that they wou ld consult with farm ers and they wou ld consult with farmers and they wou ld con­ sult with busi nessmen and they wou ld consult with labour, giving the impression that these pe ople would have real inp ut into what this govern ment was going to do, that in fact the y weren' t going to take decisions without going to the people who were to be affected by it. Well, w hat are we finding, what are we finding, Mr. Sp eaker?

Not that there is real consu ltation. Ask the Man itoba Catt le Producers if there is real consu lta­ tion over the development of the Beef Assistance Program. Ask the Man itoba Farm Bu reau if there was real consult ation over the developmen t of that. Ask the hotelmen or the Restaurant Association if there was consu ltation with them before they brought in the increases in the minimum wage. Sir, consu ltation, we are learning, is simp ly allowing someone to put for­ ward a position and you say: "Thank you very much," and then you go ahead and do exact ly what you in tende d to do before.

Tha t's wha t's being demons tr ated . -(In terjec tion)- Wel l, we hear again, you do what's right. You see, the Member for Flin Flon says: "You listen and then you go ahead and do what's right." The Member for Da uphin says: "Wh at's right is what we think." So there it is, Mr. Speaker. Those two members have summed the entir e situation up better than I could because it's not consu ltation at all. You give them the oppor tun ity to exp ress themselves and then you do what's right and that happ ens to be what the New Dem ocratic Party think s. I don' t think that's going to wash, Mr. Sp eaker.

I think the public is beginning to see what is meant by this government when they talk about consulta tion. They listen and then they go ahead and do what they intended to do to begin with, Sir. That's exact ly what they do. That's not really consu ltation. What I find even more alarming than that, Sir -a nd this was demonstrated in the speech that was given by the Mem ber for Gimli - it's been implicit in what others have said but it was ex plicit in what the Mem ber for Gimli said, and that is that the elected farm leaders of this province really don' t rep resent what the farmers think.

The Man itoba Catt le Producers happen to rep res­ ent about 14 ,000 producers and they have a system for electing their directors and for electing their pres­ ident. There are some 18 commodity groups, I believe, within the Man itoba Farm Bur eau, each which elects their own people and put their structu re toge ther in one over all umbrella organ ization that rep resents their interest. But, Sir, because the views put forwar d by those organizations don't happen to fit with tho se of the government the Mem ber for Gimli stands up and says, they don't really rep resent what the public thinks.

Now that's a very danger ous attitude, Sir , for a government to begin to take, that when they pick and choose between the representatives of the people which ones actually represent the pe ople and wh ich ones do not. 1829 Wel l, Sir, they choose to think, for instance, that the National Farmers Union rep resents the public even though the y may have perhap s 200 members and there's the dif ference, you see. The Member for Thom pson says that's the same way we op erated, we

Monday, 26 April, 1982 said the National Far mers Uni on didn't repr esent the views of the farmers. That's correct, they don't. But we never said that they don't represent the views of their members, the y do represent the vi ews of their members. The Man itoba Cattle Producer s happen to rep resent about 14 ,000 produ cers and this govern­ ment stands and says, they don't represent those pro­ ducers. Wel l, Sir, that's a dan gerous kind of an att i­ tude for the government to take, for a political party to take.

In the area of promises, Sir, prior to assum ing respon sibility for govern ment the Member for Thomp son says that we don' t ackno wledge anything about the Nor th, Sir. I can assure the Member for Thomp son that if he looks at the record he will find that there was far mor e economic activity going on in the North with respect to the basic industry from which the wea lth of the North flows, and tha t is min ­ ing, during the period of our administration. Si nce tak ing over we have seen no thing but layoffs in the North under the govern ment of these mem bers opp osite.

When they were in opposi tion, Sir, they made a great many promises and they said that it was due to the mana gement of the Cons ervative Government, the Con servat ive Govern ment was responsible for the state of the economy in the provinc e. There are so many of these promises made, Mr. Speaker, it's diffi­ cult to keep them all sorted out. Here's one from Se ptem ber 6, 19 80, for instance, where "Go vernment restraint policies are to blame for Man itoba's contin ued poor economic performance," Opp osition Leader Howard Pawley says.

Well, Sir, what do we hear now about who's respo nsible for the economic situation in the pr ovince? Is it the restraint policies? Because surely that govern ment has the oppor tuni ty to turn those restraint policies around. They could turn them around, but now they'r e saying oh no, it's not the restraint poli cies of the govern ment, it's Reaganomics now that's respo nsible, the y're responsible, and the Federal government is responsi­ ble and the mu ltinationals are responsi ble, but not this government. They'r e not taking responsi bility.

Well, they made promises before they were elected , Sir , and during the election and I can quote here from another of their camp aign documents, this one was entitled : "So me thing to Come Home to, a Ho me - emergency interest rate relief program," and the y go on. They talk about a "two-year prog ram will ensur e that no Manit oban is fo rced to lose their home, farm or small business due to abnormally high interest rates ," no Man itoban. Can you imagine, Sir, the impact that that kind of promise had on the public faced with very difficult econo mic times?

We ackno wledge that but when someone came along and said, no ho me, no farm and no busine ss will be lost, Sir, then that was promise that had a very comp elling message in it. They went on to say, "Ge t mor atori um legislation designed to allow time to reassess refinancing options will be part of the program," I don't know whether it will be or not, Sir, it's a promise that's made but we haven't seen any sign of it.

And this, Sir, is another statement at the end of this pamph let, "The NDP is comm itted to turning around economic decline of the last four years but emergency action is required now, with your suppor t it will be done." Now, doesn't that have a power ful ring to it, Sir , it will be done. We ll, here they are in government.

They began, Sir, they were promising an emergency Ses­ sion of the Leg islature, an emergency Session to deal with the Inter est Rate Relief Prog ram and to deal with a beef prog ram and when the former Leader of the Opp osition, the present Premie r, ap peared at a me et­ ing at the In terlake he said, "And this is not some­ thing that's going to drag on into weeks or month s, this is some thing that's going to be done right away." What happ ened with in days of getting elected? Wel l, Sir, the y decided that we really don' t need legis­ lation for this. Maybe we can accompl ish this through another means.

So their attention was taken away from the promise that they were going to have an emergency Sess ion of the Leg islatu re.

Now, after the Ho use was in Sess ion for six weeks we discove red that indeed, there did have to be legislation, and there did have to be regulations passed before they could pay out a nickel so all those promises were mean ing­ less in terms of the urgency that they attached to it and in terms of the sign ificance of the programs that they brought forward , because there is a very com­ pel ling promise that was made, Sir, and you can find it time and time again in the mate rial that that govern­ ment put forward ; time and time again, no farm, no business and no home is going to be lost as a conse­ quence of high interest rates.

What have we determined to date about the applic a­ tion of that program? Last week I think there was a possibility that seven small businesses were being recommended and that anybody that grossed more than $350, 000 a year wasn't going to qualify; that any farmer that grossed mor e than $70, 000 wasn't going to qualify?

Sir, I ventur e to say that the vast majority of the agricultur al produce of this provinc e comes from farms where they gross more than $70, 000 a year - I don' t have the exact figure - but there is no question that viable agriculture in this provinc e is based on farms that produce mor e than $70, 000 a year and those people are in difficulty. There are sales taking place in the countr y virtually every day at an unpr ecedent ed rate; there are farm­ eq uipment dealers going out of business; there are farmer s going out of business; there are peo ple phon­ ing saying what is this government going to do?

They made promises; no farm, no business and no home will be lost. What have they been offer ed? Ther e hasn't been a dollar paid out, Sir , ther e hasn' t been a dollar paid out and they've been in government for over five months. They promised the people of Manit oba; they prom­ ised them. The y'r e breaking that promise and they'r e breaking that trust. At the time that they'r e breaking the promises they made they're doing things that the y never promised to do.

They never told anybody the y were going to raise the sales tax, that wasn't part of the bargain; the y never told people that they wer e looking at unfreezing Hydr o; they didn't tel l peo ple that they were going to end the Crown Land Sale Policy. -( Inter jection) - That's right. Even down to the details of something as small as returning aban­ doned rights-of-way we find the ideology of the gov­ ernment oppo site standing in the way of them doing some thing that was already under way. They stopped those things, Sir, and they are doing noth ing, they are 1830

Monday, 26 Apri l, 1982 doing noth ing to earn, to keep the trust that the peo­ ple of this pr ovince put in them last Novem ber 17 th. MR. SP EAKER: The Honour able Member for La Verendr ye. MR. BAN MAN: Go lick your wounds. MOTION presented and carr ied and the Ho use resolved itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour ­ able Member for Flin Flon in the Chair for the Dep art­ ment of Health and the Honour able Member for The Pas in the Chair for the Depar tment of Econ omic Dev elopment and Tourism.

CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY -ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND TO URISM MR. CH AIR MAN, Phil Eyler (Ri ver East): Comm ittee come to order. We are considering Item 2.(d) (1) under the Depar tmen t of Economic Dev elopme nt and To urism. The Member for Sturgeon Cr eek. MR. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr . Chairman, I believe we were down as far as In dustrial In frastructure and I only had one question left on it and was to ask the Min ister if there is presently any requests for the In frast ructure Program from any of the towns or municip alities? HON. MUR IEL SMI TH (Osborne): Mr.

Chairperson, there are the con tinuing programs with the outstand­ ing balance still paya ble to the R.M. of Russell. There are two other commun ities that we' re currently having discussions with but we prefer not to name them at this stage. MR. JO HNSTO N: Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, if the Min ister could possi bly answer a question that I was intend ing to ask regarding the Techn ical Research Centre in Winnip eg and the Food Centre in Portage la Prairie.

There was a structure where they had their Boards and then there was the Man itoba Research Council Boar d and then the Man itoba Research Council making recommendations to the Min ister and it was becoming a bit conf using in that it had a lot of Boards that seemed to have to be responsible to. Is ther e any move to have the Boards of those two cen­ tres respon sible to the Min ister or the Dep uty rather than to the Man itoba Research Cou ncil? MRS . SMI TH: Mr.

Chairperson, these Boards are set up under MAC which is currently under the Enterprise Mani toba Agreement and we have a desire to expand the scope of MAC as a Board that will look at science and te chnolo gy policy for the entir e province and include wider representa tion than it currently has. We also are interested in retaining the type of service that we' re getting from the techno logy Boards since the Ent erp rise Man itoba Ag reements either term inate next year or a longer sort of wind -down period can be negotia ted with the Federal Go vern ment.

At the 1831 moment we're thinking it's prematu re to try to make major shifts in the structure. What we are doing actively is planning for the options that will be avail­ able to us at the end of the Ent erp rise Man itoba Ag reement and to work in some kind of stability so that the technology centr es can, indeed, function and that the MAC Boar d can carry out the wider tasks that we see appropria te to it. Now, in order to bring all that about, we will work with the current structure for the time being, but plan for the transition to a wider mis­ sion and a more stable basis. MR. CHAIR MAN, Ha rry M.

Harapiak (The Pas): 2.(d )

(1) Salaries-pass; 2.(d)

(2) Other Exp enditur es­ pass; 2.(d)

(3) Grant Assistan ce-pass; 2.(

e) Economic Dev elopment and Tourism; 2.(e )(1 ) Salaries. The Mem ber for Stu rgeon Creek. MR. JOHNS TO N: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Min ­ ister is plan ning to give us any sort of outline as to the Tourism program for the prov ince this year? In other words, am there any major changes to Tourism? MRS. SMI TH: Mr . Chairman, the marketing compo­ nent of the program will concentr ate on prim ary markets in Canada and the U.S. We'r e hoping to increase vis itation to the pro vinc e in the neigh bour­ hood of 3 percent to 4 percent and increase visitor spend ing by about 14 percent.

There will be a fair amount of in-province promotion cont inuing, some special initiativ es in specially markets and for some off-season advertising. We will continue our consu­ mer promotions at govern ment and travel shows and at travel trade consor tiums. There will be an ongoing awaren ess progr amming activity and our Outr each Take a Good Look Man itoba Show, although we may have a different title for it, I'm not too sure at this stage. The Destination Man itoba Program will be moving along. We hope to activate the programs Two, Th ree and Six tha t have currently no t been in opera tion.

I can say, in general, that we'r e looking for devel­ opment of the awaren ess by the peo ple in the tourism industry of themselv es as an industry and of how development for each one can benefit the others. It's quite an exciting industry in the sense that there's a great diversity of activities in it and people who seem to enjoy the work a great deal, but they've perh aps suffered in the past from not seeing themselves as a total industry and not always wor king as effect ively toge the r to bring about advan ces.

But I see that a lot can be gaine d from wor king co-operatively with that industry and I think the launching of the Destination Man itoba Programs Two, Three and Six will give a boost to the industry that everyo ne should benefit from. MR . JOHNS TO N: Did the Min ister say the Take a Go od Look Man itoba program? I didn't catch whether it was going to be on or off. MRS. SM ITH: I said it would be on, but it might have a different title. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Member for Emerson .

Monday, 26 April, 1982 MR. DRI EDGER: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to make a few comments and draw to the Min ister's atte ntion some concerns that we have, for example, in the southeast of Man itoba. Actu ally with the Port of Entr y at Middlebro, we have a lot of Am eri­ cans coming in and using that appr oach into the Whiteshell development.

We have some good poten­ tial in that area at Lake of the Woods, the only port that we have on Lake of the Woods on the Man itoba side and Moose Lake, the development out there and somehow as these people come into the Canad ian side there is very little that we offer them in terms of any pot ential in the southeast.

We've counted as many as 10 0 boats on Bir ch Poin t during the fishing season at a given time and we have very poor facilities in some sense for our tou rists out there, and we have very li mited development in the Moose Lake area and I wou ld like to see whether this Mini ster - I realize that part of the development comes under Natu ral Resou rces, if I'm correct but I think possibly the promotion end of it certainly is some­ thing that comes under this depar tment here.

We've had complai nts at various times that even on the to ur­ ist brochures. etc. that the southe ast area has been om.itted on some of the ma ps, some of the promo­ tional work that is there. I'm wonderi ng if the Min ister could indicate her feel ings on the concerns that I've raised. MRS . SM ITH: Mr. Chairpe rson, the Whiteshell is one of the prio rity destination areas under Des tination Man itoba and under Prog ram 6, priv ate oper ato rs can certainly apply for monie s to assist with upgrading and expans ion.

I supp ose the unspoken question as to whether an information centr e should be opened there for the American touris ts is something that we'll be looking at. There's need for develop ment of better information centr es, higher visibility, better quality at the entr y from the States on Highw ay 75 and also improvement on the entr y point on Hig hway 1 from the west.

The se have not got onto the short list for capital development this year but they are a high prior ity from our department's point of view and I think this particular location that the me mber has drawn our atte ntion to will certainly be thrown into the mix and looked at in terms of prio rity for upcoming years. MR. DRIED GER: Does the Min ister have any infor­ mation as to how many people cross under the tour­ ism aspect at the po rts of en try in the southe ast?

Why I ask this question, it might be that we' re.just spe culat­ ing that ther e is a lot of traff ic coming through there in the tou rism area, but if the Min ister has some figures it might give us an indication as to whether some of these projects are warranted out there or not. MRS . SMI TH: Yes, Mr.

Chai rper son, that's the kind of information, of course, the depar tment needs to make their recommendations and the y tell me that we have that information - not here at the moment, it could be made available - but it's the col lection of that kind of data tha\'s necessary in the planning process and there's been a mo ve to collect harder data to assist us with our planning. MR. DRIED GER: Mr.

Chairman, to speak in response or to speak in favo ur of the further development in the southe ast, when you consider the traffic situation on some of the major highways that are going into the Whiteshell, the No. 12 Highway, which is a good highway; it's being rebuilt and restructured in pl aces, has very little traffic on it and it's a very nice drive out there.

We have some great pote ntial in there in the southe ast, even in the winter recreation end of it which I think is something that is being overlooked to some degree; we have great ski trails and snow tob­ oggan trails up in that area and I think promotion, even for people from the city here, to make use of the facilities or the oppor tun ities, if we did have the fac ili­ ties, I think there's a lot of pot ential there. I wou ld just like to draw that to the Minister's attention that the se thi ngs are needed ther e.

We are that close to the border and we have very little to offer to our American friends when they come across. I think with a little bit of promotion we can entice a lot mor e people to come across and spend some of their mone y that we all like to have. MRS . SM ITH: Mr. Chairperson, I know that I can count on the co-operation of the honour able member to acq uaint the people in the area, the local people inv olved in tourism, to take advantage of some of the programs in Program 6.

There has been a move on the part of the department to advertise mor e all year­ round activitie s and certainly the winter recreation activities the me mber refers to, do come under that umbrella. It is an important area for drawing in out-of­ countr y visitors, let alone out-of-province and, of course, the mor e we can do that the mor e outside mo ney we can bring into the economy. So, I take the honourable member's suggestions and recommenda­ tions seriously and we certainly do what we can to promote tourism in that area. MR. DRIED GER: I thank the Min ister for the encou­ raging words along those lines.

I'd just like to indicate to her that there is an association, I believe it's called Southe ast Tourists' Assoc iation that is wor king there right now. It's under the chairmansh ip of Lawrence Nor dstrom from the Spr ague area and the se are the people who have been very concerned and have been trying to work towards getting some mo re promo­ tional work done in that area; I'll certainly refer them to get in touch with the Min ister's department to pos­ sibility me et and expr ess their concerns on a first­ hand basis. 1832 MRS . SM ITH: Yes, Mr . Chairperson.

Un der the Des­ tination Man itoba Prog rams there are several that are in oper ation now, one of which does give organ iza­ tional supp ort to the tou rist industry associations thr oughout the province.

We deal with the central group but they, in turn, have all the ar.ea, the regional tou rist organizations, and we hope to improve our co-ordinating and we cer tainly see those organ iza­ tions as very necessary and important to the devel­ opment of tourism because it is so much a collection of small-scale priv ate-sector actors and I think that the Tourism Association helps bring their activitie s together and ensur e that we have a good package for the tou rist.

• - - - -- Monday, 26 April, 19 82 MR. DRIED GER: I just have a fina l comment. I'd like to just indicate some of the feel ings that have become promi nent from time to time from the people there. It wou ld appear that their feeling is that mo st of the action is all directed at the Wh iteshell or the Falcon Lake-West Hawk areas and the lakes along there. If the re's anything left at all you know the crumbs, they get channel led off into the southeast corner.

I would once again like to indicate that with the group that is func tioning there right now and myself, we'd like to feel that you should prio rize possibly some of the projects in that area and not treat it as an afterthought somewher e along the line. MRS . SMI TH: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, I think the member has done a good job of sensitizing me, at any rate, to the oppor tun ity in that area. I think, as I said before, that is one place where we can bring outside mone y in, as it were; I think that certainly is a desirable goal of the industry.

As some of our older tou rist areas become full and you start to get the group that want to get more into the wilderne ss or want a less crowded environment, I think areas such as the sout heast will really come into their own and we'll do everything we can to assist. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. JO HN STON : Mr . Chairman, I'd like to ask if ther e's been any thought of having a Touris t In forma­ tion Centr e somewh ere closer to the city on Highw ay 75.

I know we have one at the border at Emerson but the success of the Infor mation Centr e that was put on the west side of Winnip eg from the point of view of people being able to see it, people stopping and receiving information on where to go in the provinc e, was just very dramatic - I think tripled or even more than that, as far as people stopping were concerned. We just have the use of a trailer on the east side or a small Infor mation Ce ntre on the east side, I believe at a service station for an Infor mation Centr e.

Are there any thoug hts to expa nding those two, one in Fort Gar ry and the one on the east side from the point of view of the tourists getting better information? MR S. SMI TH: Yes, Mr . Chairperso n, both locations are identified as areas that need a Tourism Infor ma­ tion Centre. The re's not a plan to do it this year; it'll be something that will be seriously consider ed for next year. The re are th ree locations being considered at the south end of the City but there's no decision as to which is the preferred one.

The re are a lot of factors to be taken into consi deration relating to land purchase, visibility, access, other services available to tourists and there's also some oppor tunitie s of possi ble co­ oper ation with the Federal-Provincial Art Programs. With regard to the west end of the City, I think the point as been well made that we could pr ofit from having a centr e there. We'l l have to weigh the pros and cons of putting one there ahead of an improved one at the border of Saskatchew an.

In the best of all possible worlds, we'd do them all imme diately but the reality of the situation is we'll have to phase them in but, the locations that the honour able member has identified are certainly the ones that we are looking at. MR. JOH .NSTON: I had the oppor tun ity when I was in No va Scotia on a conven tion, to take a look at some of the tourist centr es that they have in Nova Scotia and the new one s that they have built, and even their old ones have put us to shame.

When I think of the trailer down at the corner, going to Morden or Wink ler, which does a good job and the young people work ing in it do an excel lent job, but the Inf ormat ion Centr es, or better still, they're called Tourist Centr es, the re was good parking, rest areas, coffee, information, wel l staffed and good comm unication in them to assist the trave ller in all ways.

No w, fully realizing that Nova Sco tia is almost an island except wher e it joins New Brunswick - Mani­ toba is structu red a little differently - and the Mini s­ ter indicates that there is a budget problem this year for expansion of Infor mation Centr es, is it being looked at to have better Tou rist Centr es thr oughout the Pr ovinc e of Man itoba? MRS. SMI TH: Yes. MR .

JO HN STON: The Tourist Centr es in Nova Sco­ tia were hooked up to an information centr e of hotels, etc. and there is a separate organiza tion associated with the tourist branch in Nova Scotia that was recommende d to this provinc e by TI AM; is the Mini s­ ter giving that any consideration? MRS . SM ITH: Yes, Mr.

Chairperson, I've been in quite close discussion with the people who are promot ing this, in fact, it's probably one of the key ways that we can cope with the tighter comp et ition we're going to get on a Convention Centr e because here we use a variety of hotels and if we want to be able to accom­ moda te large convention groups, speed and eff i­ cienc y, flexibility in the bookings and arran gemen ts will be of immens e assistance to us.

We've asked for a precise costing of the service that is currently avail­ able in No va Scotia and some description of the soft­ ware required in order to make such a service oper a­ tional, as wel l as some project ion as to the costs that we could recover from such and investment, and I exp ect that prop osal will be ready to be presented for next year's program. It sounds like sometimes a com­ puter service adds a frill but, having looked at what such a system could contri bute to the ind ustry, my incli nation at the moment is to be very favo urably disp osed towards it.

But we can't, of course, mak e a firm recommendation until we have some of the tigh­ ter analysis and the cost projections. 18 33 MR. JO HN STON : Well, the figures that had been present ed to the govern ment previously showed it to be a fairly ex pensive structure or set up and it certa inly didn't appear to be paying its way as fast as some of the projections that had been given to us.

In No va Soctia there were all kinds of smaller resort hotels, as I say, all around Nova Scotia and the number of hotels that would actually receive the benefit for that kind of expe nditure in Man itoba would be fairly strictly limited to the Winnip eg hotels. There are not that many out­ side of Man itoba that would be able to take advan tage of it. I wou ld like to think that the re's another way rather than that particu lar structu re and I believe ther e have been presenta tions by, I think, the Ho tel

Monday, 26 April, 19 82 Association that there is ano ther type of reservation service that could be put in initially that would be much less costly. Has the Min ister had that brought to her attention? MRS. SM ITH: Well, Mr . Chai rperson, it's the way with so many of these proposa ls that, when you hear about them initially, you either feel very very positive or very very negative, but the stance that I' ve adopted towards this proposal is that, first of all, I want to understand what it can do and what it can't do and what the cost would be and what the pot ential gain from it.

Proba­ bly, in the short run, we can accomplish the same by put ting on some extra staff at peak times. Ther e may we ll be, as the industry develops and we have a greater diversity of facilities throughout the pro vinc e, that there' ll be a cross-over point where cost of hiring extra peo ple and training them and having them in place when you need them, and this type of a syste m would make sense. It's in order to get that kind of analysis and projection that I wo uld not like to take a firm position on it at this time.

It's an interes ting appr oach and certa inly for the convention business when you get a great, how should I say, your business comes in very large surges and your ability to ser vice a convention and, in fact, to attract conv ention group s back year after year may hang on giving them effec­ tive good service. Now how you can mea sure the effect ivene ss of such a progr am, whether there's another way perhaps to charge its benefits to the industry, all these thi ngs wo uld need to be looked at.

Ini tial repo rts from Nova Scotia are that it's wor king out to be fairly costly, but we don' t know what factors they'r e taking into their analysis and, ther efore, it's premature of me to really say, other than that it's interesting and we will be looking at it in much sharper detail. MR. JOHN STON: Well, I would certainly hope that the Min ister's prior ity of information centr es and good rest areas for tou rists would be very close to the top of the list or before that one. Mr. Chairman, the media advertising; certainly we know the advertising company that had the cont ract has been changed.

I know ther e have been different reasons asked about in the Ho use, etc., but I can only say the tourism was the highest it's ever been in Mani­ toba in 19 81 and it was moving up conti nually the last three years. The advertising agency we had, had a very good understanding and had done a tremendous amount of research regarding the travellers in Mani ­ toba with the depar tment. I know the depar tment suppl ied a tremendous amount of the informa tion. Is there any reason why that agency was change d and why it wasn't tendered? MRS . SMI TH: Mr.

Chai rper son, the reasons for changing are that in the creative field, it's custom ary to have several agencie s bidding and it's also custom­ ary to change off and on in order to get the benefit of a fresh appr oach. This particular contr act was not ten­ dered because we're into a time squeeze if we were going to be ready in time for the peak tou rist seaso n. We really didn't have time to go through the te ndering process, but we hope to use the tenderi ng process regularly in futu re. MR. JOHN STON: What is budgeted for media adver­ tising this ye�r? MR S. SM ITH: The total budgeted, Mr.

Chairperson, is $1, 17 5, 700.00. That's up over $1 ,069, 700 last year. MR. JOHN STON : Is there any sort of breakdown - the Min ister might not have it - between television and the print ed media? MR S. SMI TH: Mr . Chairper son, we don' t have a breakdown on that basis. MR. JOHN STON: Is it the intention to have the summer and spri ng or - let's go this way - the fall, wint er and spring advertising programs? MR S. SMI TH: Mr. Chairperson, there's two main phases of advertising, a combined fall/winter appr oach and a combined spri ng/summer. MR.

JOHN STON : Has there been any increase in the grant to the seven regions Interlake, Central Plains, EastMan, Pembina Valley? MRS. SM ITH: Mr. Chairperson, there's been a 10 percent across-the-board increase. MR. JOHNSTON: And it works out on the same for­ mula they had before? MRS . SMI TH: Yes. MR. JOHN STON: And the Tourism Indus try Associa­ tion of Man itoba, I mentione d the regions, is ther e an increase to the central office of TIAM? MRS . SMI TH: Mr. Chairperso n, it also has gone up 10 percent, the same form ula as last year. MR. JOHN STON: Mr .

Chairman, I was in the Esti­ mates of the Min ister of Resources and I've been in the Estimates of the Minister of Northern Aff airs to ask two spec ific questions and I'd like to have the Min ister maybe give me some idea of what work has been done with those two departmen ts. The campgr ounds in the Province of Man itoba, there is no increase in the parks budget for any upgrading of the campgr ounds in the prov ince.

I have the Ha nsard where the Min ister told me there had been no mon ies set aside for upgrading of the campgrounds. 1834 Ther e are several roadside parks along our high­ ways and ther e is no money available for upgr ading those roadside parks. The Minister of Northern Affa irs, I asked him if there was any funding in the Norther n Ag reement and, of course, the Northern Agreement as far as I know, has not been signed yet, but has there been any funding basically for econo mic develop ­ ment for the North and certainly as far as the tourism is con cerned for campgrounds in the North?

Man itoba has a tremendous amount going for it in to urism and has a tremendous growth as we've all been saying for many years and it has been moving up. We don' t have mountains; we don't have the ski resorts that some of the other provinces have but we do have a very beautiful province with a lot of water

I . - Mond ay, 26 April, 1982 and a lot of sand and a lot of thin gs to be seen. One of the first priorities I would like to see and I was hoping to see is that we started to have roadside parks that gave comfor t to the tourist and Man itobans while they're travelling throughout their provinc e and the best damn campgr ounds in the world I think. If you could ever have your advertising say that the camp grounds for tourists in the Province of Man itoba are second to none it wou ld help attract people to come and see all of those beautiful areas of Man itoba.

There doesn't seem to be any mo ney set aside any­ where for Capital Expe nditur e to upgrade, build new camp grounds -and it might be in Destination Mani­ toba, the upgrading, but that would be I think in the area of private camp grounds.

But, the provincial, the ones that are taken care of by the Min ister in charge of Parks and the roads ide parks and co mfor t stations, the re doesn't seem to be any mo ney available in budgets anywher e to upgr ade tho se situati ons because they are becoming one of the most important and one of the one s that, when I travel through Mani­ toba talking about tourism to people in diffe rent areas, one of the first things that would be brought up was campgrounds, better facilities for the tou rist Has there been any discussion with the other Min is­ ters to try and find some way to upgr ade the facilities, other than hotels and motels.

I know the prog rams are available under Destination Man itoba and I believe they are going to be moving ahead with them, but what about the camp ground s and the roadside parks that the provinc e have responsi bility for, and work ing with the private one s to upgrade them? MRS . SM ITH: We ll, Mr. Chairperson, there wasn't a great deal of co-ordination prior to the Estim ates but we've moved into a consu ltative relationsh ip now.

The program th ree of Destina tion Man itoba, which per­ mits public development in tourism, could cover these programs and I guess if we'd had that program oper ative for a few years we would, in fact, have upgraded parks. They can cer tainly be consider ed under that prog ram.

We do recognize the to urism pote ntial in the north and also its role as an important source of economic development, so I can assure you that we will be looking at that But, there were no plans certainly coming from our depar tment that we inhe r­ ited that put a heavy emphasis on that, so the co­ ordination and the plannin g with my colleagues has yet to be done. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour is 4:30 p.m. we'll interru pt the proceedings for Private Members' Hour. The Comm ittee will re-convene at 8 o' clock this evening ESTIMATES - HE ALTH MR. CHA IRMAN, Jerry T.

Storie (Fli n Flon): The Comm ittee on Health will come to order please, con­ tinuing with the Estimates. The Honour able Minister of Health. HON. LAURENT DESJARD INS (St. Boniface): Mr. Chairman, I was saying that the official Health critic of the Con servative Party and myself had a discussion of a possible agenda for the next two days. Of course, we don't run the Comm ittie and I would like to propose it to the Comm ittee to see if this wou ld be accepta ble and then we will govern ourselves accordingly.

I intend to immediately start with giving some ques­ tions that were left unfin ished under the Alcohol ism Foun dation and then, Mr. Chairman, it will be under the item, Dental, which is the only thing left of the depar tment proper. I want to make a general state­ ment on that and then proceed with this with the under stan ding that there might be a possi bility that we might move, if not this afte rnoon, probably this even ing, to the Man itoba Health Services Comm is­ sion.

Then we would go line-by-line like we've done before with the understan ding that we would keep the big th ree, that is the Personal Care Homes, the Hospi­ tals and Medicare until the very end and I could assure the members of Commit tee that, under no circum­ stance, will that be taken ton ight No matter how far we have gone we would adjourn before going into Personal Care, Ho spital and Dental; I don't think the re's any fear of that, but just in case.

Tomo rrow afte rnoon we would start wherever we're at But the main point is, because of the interest and because it affects so many cons tituenc ies, at 8 o' clock tomo rrow I would table and give a copy to each member of the Ho use and copies would be available for the press, of our Capital program. Now, that will not be discussed at the time, it is just to give members a chance to look at it and then when we would deal with Hosp itals and Perso nal Care Homes then, of course, it could be debated at that time. If that meets with the app roval of the members of Comm ittee we will proceed as such. Mr .

Chairman, I had some unfin ished business under Alcoholism Foundation. It 's just a statement that I was going to make, some informati on, and I might say, a correction. The Alcohol ism Foundation, in co-operation with the Motor Vehicle Branch - excuse me, I' m talking about the Im paired Dr ivers' Prog ram for second offe nders now -have in the past year developed a special program of education and interv ention for impaired drivers who have been con­ victed of a second offe nse.

The program ran as a pi lot project in the Winnip eg region for appr oximately six months and has recently been extended to include Br andon, Dau phin, The Pas and Thomp son. The pro­ gram is still considered, by both the Alcohol ism Foundation and the Motor Veh icle Branch, to be on a trial or pilot basis and at the present time is not being extended to first offender s due to the need for further eva luation of the prog ram and limitations of present staff and resources. The AFM will be repor ting to me shortly on some recommendations for further devel­ opme nts to include first offenders.

The education and inter vention program is designed to inform convi cted drivers of the physical and mental affects of chemi­ .cals on the human body, and particula rly, their ability to oper ate a motor vehicle after consumption of alco­ hol and other drugs. The drivers are referred from the Motor Vehicle Branch to the AFM for individual couns elling followed by a day-long seminar. At the conclusion of the semin ar the driver returns to the couns ellor to discuss the client's perce ptions of his/her use of alcohol. The counsellor attem pts to determine with the client whether alcoholism treatment is required.

The results of this intervie w are forwarded to the Motor Vehicle 18 35

Monday, 26 April, 1982 Branch afte r being discussed with the client. If the client decides, after the education the y have received, that they would like help with their alcohol consump­ tion problem, they may be ent ered into one of the several different alcoholism trea tment programs available. If not, the client is under no obligation. The AFM is not inv olved in determining whether the client receives their driver's license; that is hand led by the Motor Veh icle Branch officials. The full details and outline of the program are available from the AFM.

Then there's a correction and added information that I'd like to give on the Youth Prog ram. I wish to present some information which will clarify any con­ fusion there may have been regarding our discussion of the Alcoholism Foundation's Man itoba Youth Pro­ gram. This is an out-patient prog ram for persons up to age 18 who are exper iencing problems with alcohol or drugs. The program commenc ed last Aug ust and since that time has seen over 300 young people.

There is a present caseload in the area of 19 0 in the program which cons ists of information and therapy sessions three times per week for a month, and then follow-up sessions for as long as is req uired. The confusion during the debate on the Estimates concern ing the ages of the participants. The informa­ tion I gave with regard to the average age was incor­ rect. It turns out that the average age of the youth in the program is 16 years, not 14 years.

The breakdown is as follows: 11 percent are age 14 and younger with only 1 percent under 12 ; 37 percent are age 15 and 16 ; 43 percent are age 17 and 18 ; 9 percent are 19 years of age. This presents an average age of 16 years. This is a non-residential program which is cu rrently func ­ tioning at the Sherburn and Portage Aven ue location. Mr. Chairman, that is the information I promised to give to the Ho use that wasn't available and now I'd like to make a short state ment on the Children's Dental Services before we start dealing with this item. Mr.

Chairman, in accordanc e with the Thr one Sp eech, the Children's Dental Health Program will be expan ded in '82-83 to include the present 13 -year­ olds who turn 14 on or after Jan uary, 19 83, in those school divisions currently cove red by the progr am. Co nseq uently, the private dentis t, through the Mani ­ toba Dental Assoc iation, will conti nue to provide ser­ vices in the 10 -2/3 school divisions currently covered by them and the department will conti nue to provide services in the 17 -1/3 school divisions currently covered by the department.

It is estimated that this program exp ansion will cost appro ximately $439, 000 which will be fund ed b