VOL. 3 'PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE Or ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6~00 p.m. TUESDAY, JUNE 27, 19}8 NO. 101

June 27, 1978 The House met at 2:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker.in the Chair. HR. SPEAKER: Tape 4824 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY HINISTERS HR. srEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker., I YOt.!ld like to ask all ·members of the House to join:Yith me on the government side in an expression of deepest sympathy to the families of the men DW - 1 and women who died on Friday morning's tragic plane crash on the Bauline Line. The death of four members of the Historic Monument's Board is undoubtedly the loss for Canada as a whole.

All of these individuals Yere .prominent in the study of Canadian history and Yill I am sure be dearly missed by the associates as well as the public at large. I would tdsh to pay special tribute to Mr. William Manning who,: as many of you knoY,was a tireless Yorker in many community activities,including the KQights of Columbus ·and the St. John's Regatta Committee. Mr. Manning was elected the first Mayor of Torbay six years ago and worked hard to see improvements made in his hometown. It was only on Thursday past that Mr.

Manning saY the realization of one of his lifelong ambitions,the designation of Torbay. as a national historic site. I know all members join me in extending deepest sympathy to the families and friends- of all the victims of this plane crash during this time of bereavement. i-1!t. ·sPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W.N. ROWE: Mr. Speaker,of course it goes without saying that Ye on this side of the House would want to associate ourselves very much Yith the words of_sympathy and condolences­ expressed by the Premier in connection with this very tragic· plane crash on Friday.

The House Yill recall, Sir, that it was . with a great deal of shock that each member here on Friday heard the news; At that time, of course ,it Yas_ mere rumour and Ye did not

June 27, 1978 Tape 4824 MR. H.N. ROWE: know who was involved or what names· were involved in the crash.l~e did rtot know how many people were killed. Sir, it was a shock and a tragedy not only for the ten individuals involved-it is always a terr±ble thing·.when one individual- loses his or her-·. life. - but, Sir, also in this case we had a group who were dedicated to the preservation of things historical in the Province and that,in addition to the lives last, will be a sad loss fo'r everybody who treasures and wants to treasure historical monuments and historical sites in this Province.

Sir, the ten m,r - 2 who died,as the Premier mentioned,were a combination of Newfoundlanders and mainlanders and I too «ouldlike to particularly associate myself with his remarks concerning William Manning,the Mayor of Torbay. Sir,everybody who had anything to do with politics,! suppose, municipal or provincial,and certainly anything to do with Signal Hill knew William Manning well and had nothing but respect for him and what he stood for, what he was trying to do for his community and for Newfoundland and Labrador as a whole. Sir,it was a very sad 1day, -~one that nobody wants to ever see recur in this Province.

Sir,I would like to join with the Premier on behalf of·'.my colleagues here in m&king certain that a message of sympathy and condolences is sent from this House to the families of each of the individuals who so tragically lost their lives in that crash. I am sorry? MR. S • ·NEARY : MR. W. N. RO.WE: I would like to know '~hy it crashed. Yes, of course. Obviously there will be an investigation by the Department of Transport or,if not, and. perhaps in addition to. a magisterial enquiry so that, as I mentioned earlier,we do not see the recurrence of this sort of thing again for whatever reason it might have been.

So ,as I say, we join.: in expressing our sympathy and our condolences to the widm~s, husbands, 'ddowers and families, children of the people who so t_ragically and sadly lost their lives .in that crash, Sir.

June 27, 1978 ~. SPEAKER: l!R. STRACHAN : Tape 4824 DW- 3 The hon. member for Eagle River. Mr. Speaker by leave I would like to express a tribute to the pilot, Mr. r~rald Eichel; if that is permitted. He was a very close friend of mine who f.lew the Labrador Coast for many years, five and a half years, and I would like to pay tribute from everybody on the, Labrador Coast since many people have called me._ He was the pilot, in fact, who flew me in the last election campaign - flew with us and stayed at our home I would like to pay tribute to him as an excellent pilot.

He showed the skills that all bush pilots show and I ::hink that the crash hopefully will not be a reflection _.on his skillls because I know him as a tremendous pilot and I would like to express my appreciation of him. l!R. S. NEARY: ~fr. Speaker, {1Lf1D

June 27, 1978 Tape 4825 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, if I may I would like to turn to another matter, Sir. It is always a very proud moment for Newfoundlanders when anybody in this Province wins arnational award or an international - -· award. Well, Sir, over the weekend hon. members have probably heard that two national awards came to Newfoundland, one to Marystown , and one to Corner Brook. VOCM's subsidary station CHCM in Marystown won another award called the Community Leadership Award for Canadian Radio.

The award was presented .at The Radio and Television News Directors Association which was .held this past weekend in· Vancouver, and the award is for efforts of CHCM in Marysto\"m to have the federa 1 government conduct an inquiry into the sinking ·of the trawler Cape Roya~. Mr. Speaker, the other award was also a national award called the radio Dan McArthur Award this award went to CFCB Radio Station on the. l~est Coast in Corner Brook.

And it was ~oton for a documentary in connection with the seal hunt,and I am surprised that the hon .. the Premier,who has been so active in the pro-Seal Campaign, did not leap to his feet this afternoon to congratulate Radio Station CFCB in Corner Brook for winning the Dan McArthur Award for a decumentary on the Seal Hunt.

As I say, Sir, these are really proud moments for Newfoundlanders.When we can win an award in the Atlantic region ·we always feel very happy and proud, but when we can take on the rest of Canada, Sir, and beat out the radio stations in the whole of Canada ·and have two awards come into Newfoundland at that same time - and I believe this is the second award, by the way, for CFCB who also won an .award for their coverage of the sinking of The William Carson.

They won a couple of Atlantic provinces awards, and this is the second time within a year that they won the national award. r am sure the House would not want these events, Sir, to go unnoticed and I would hope that somebody on the other side would second my motion to extend our sincerest congratulations to Radio Station VOCM, especially its satellite station CHCM in.Marystown, and Radio Station CFCB in Corner Brook, and especially to the particular newsmen who had

June 27, 1978 Tape 4825 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: to do with putting together these documentaries and these community leadership items. So, I hope, Sir, that both sides of the House will congratulate today these two radio stations. SOME HON •. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR: HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, if I may on behalf of hon. gentlemen on this side of the House join with the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) in firstly congratulating Radio Station CHCM,the first station on the South Coast of Newfoundland, the first radio station to be established on that Coast, And that in itself was a tremendous accomplishme~t because prior to that the majority of listeners along the South Coast · were under a steady barrage from radio stations in Cape Breton and in fact New Carlisle and other places. When I was a boy in Grand Bank we got our news from CFCY, I think it was, in Sydney, or CHNS in Sydney..

CHCM has shown a great deal of community leadership, not just in their efforts to persuade the Minister of Transport in Ottawa to initiate an inquiry .into.The Cape·Royal, but practically every worthwile cause on the South Coast that requires some leadership and organization and one finds CHCM very much in the fore. CFCB again proves beyond reasonable doubt that the private radio stations: _,and the private media can,when called upon so to do with much less cost or that much less cost than some other areas,present and provide excellent documentaries on matters of importance and public interest in this Province.

We extend to CHCM and the staff at Marystown our congratulations on a job well done in receiving an award that goes beyond the Provincial scope in its nature, and also we congratulate the management and staff of Radio Station CFCB in Corner Brook again for doing such a good job ·

June 27,1978 Tape ::o. 4826 AH-1 :-rR. HICK:.·lAN: on behalf of this Province in bringing our_message to the att.ention of people beyond our shores. NR. SPEAKER: i"lR.I·I.ROlvE: PRESENTING PETITIONS Hen. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I have the distinct honour and privilege of presenting tod.:ly. a petition containing some nearly l,5CO names in this one petition. I understand there are several others being circulated or have already been circulated containing many more names from the students at !1emorial University.

I believe, Sir, ~~e have the honour today of having several students from that university looking in on our proceedings so it is an opportune time, Sir, to present it. I re'ceived the petition only a short few minutes ago. The petition reads as follows, Hr. Speaker: "To the hen. House of Assembly;

Whereas measures introduced in the 1978 budget concerning changes in student aid ;;ill tend to place a tremendous financial burden on graduates from ~emorial University ,and •.,·hereas these· changes wlll cause a substantial decrease in. enrolment at the University based on financial rather than academic qualifications,and

whereas the increase in the operating budget for Hemorial University is insufficient to cover inflation in salaries and costs,and

whereas this minimal increase will decrease the quality of education at Memorial UniversirJ,and

whereas tuition and residence fees will be forced to rise,therefore we the undersigned respectfully petition .the .goverru:~ent of the Province of Newfoundland :2nd Labrador to reconsider the allocation of funds in these areas of the budget and respectfully request that the zover=ent increase its support of university education.;' And as I say, Sir, this one petition, and I think there are several others, this Ot'-e petition contains about nearly l, 500 names and I have of cou=se appended my o~m r.ame to it as well.

Sir, we have outlined on this side of the House our policy and our position regarding education in this Province on many occasions .l~e have done so uhen ..,e received [)etitions protesting the cutbacks on teachers in this Province and any other cutbacks in the quality tlrf1?

June 27,1978 Tape ~o. 4826 AH-2 :·JR, t<, ROivE: of education or .anything that even tends towards decreasing the quality of education in ·t•lis Province, Our positi<in,Sir, has been stated, I have stated it publicly and I do so here again, Sir, that not one student who has the ability to do so, uot one student should be turned away from the doors of Memorial University or the Trades School or any other institution of higher education for that matter, but we are talking about the university here, not one student should lle turned away, Sir, who has the ability because of financial reasons.

If, Sir, we once Gdmit that fir4ncial considerations can determine whether a man or a woman or a boy or a girl of talent and skill is going to get the .best education possible or not,then, Sir, I do not think we cieserve to call ourselves a civiliz~tion at all. We have to makP. sure, Sir, that the best that our young people have to offer get the best in training that can be obtained in Newfoundland or in Canada llecause, Sir, unless '~e do so Newfoundland and Labrador will· be doomed to deteriorate and go down in quality, the quality of life and the quality of our economy increasingly as the years go by. i•!r.

Speaker, it has now become a truism and trite to say so but it has to be said: we in this Province are graduating approximately one half the rate of university students that they are graduating across . . Canada generally and about one quarter.the rate, Mr. Speaker, of students graduating from university in provinces like Ontarian or Alberta.· The same figures apply to Trade School, Technical College and the same figures apply to~I believe,graduation from grade Xl itself.

Sir, if there is a future for Newfoundland and Labrador, and I firmly believe there is, an economic future, or I would not be in this House today or ever, if there is a future, Sir, and I believe there is, it.has to depend on the solid training and education and the.gainulg of qualifications and skills by our young people. That. is why, Sir, I support this petition so adamantly today and have no hesitation to doing so. As I say there may be several more which will come m and ~re will rise in our places, at least on this side of the. House, Sir, and support them wholeheartedly as well.

Our future, Sir, is with these

June 27, 1978, Tape 2827, Page 1 -- apb MR. W.N.ROWE: young people who have taken the trouble to sign their names here and have turned out today in these numbers, who marched on the Confederation Building two or three months ago and who, I am sure, will continue to .make their feelings known. It is an important issue, an ·issue.which should not be allowed to die because the future of this Province, Sir, depends on the young people of talent and ability getting the training and 9:ualifications that are necessary to make sure our economy carries on in a viable fashion. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I rise, Sir, to wholeheartedly support the prayer of the petition so ably presented by my hon. colleague the Leader of the Opposition, the petition which was signed by 1,500 students at Memorial University condemning measures recent.ly implemented by the government to increase the student aid and which the students rightly point out could conceivably cause a decrease in enrollment at the university. Mr. Speaker, I do hope that the governmentwill reconsider this matter, Sir, because it is a very, very serious matter.

So often we hear politicians get up and say that the best investment that we have in this Province, the best resource we have is our young people. Yet it seems to me, Mr. Speaker, that every time government sees fit to cut back, to tighten their belts, they always cut back on the young people, they cut. back on the students· at· the· university. When the government refuses to grant the university additional increases that they request, it reflects on the tuition and the enrollment fees of the students who attend that university. •.-

June 27, 1978, Tape 4827, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the situation has been bad enough. Before this year young Newfoundlanders, young men and women in this Province have been discouraged from attending the university already because of the huge debts that they incur while at the university that they have to start paying once they graduate'and. get out in the world. And usually when they graduate, Mr. Speaker, they go out and they. get married and then they are ·saddled with an $8,000 or $10,000,and sometimes much more than that,$10,000 or $12,000 debt that they have to start paying back.

And if they do not pay it back thei·r names are put on the Credit Bureaus, in the credit agencies downtown and the life is harassed out of them until they make some kind of an arrangement to pay it back, and this is not right, Sir. It we stay on the course that the government is on now we are going to end up with an elitist university - SOME HON. MEMBERS.: That is right. MR. NEARY: - and that is the last thing we want in this world, Sir.

I agree with my colleague, that in no way should young men and women in this Province be turned away from our post-secondary educational institutions because of money, because of their financial circumstances. Mr. Speaker, it is hard for these young people to understand government plowing money into all kinds of business and industry that fails, plowing money into things that can be considered to be extravagance and waste like the Norma· and Gladys affair, the luxurious helicopter services we have in this Province and paying out money for renting office space in this Province. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Order, please! I as sure the han, gentleman is aware, as are all other han. members, that, obviously, one can speak in support of the petition but general areas of

June 27, 1978, Tape 4827, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: debate and matters outside of the particular subject matter would not be relevant at this time. The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: No., Sir, and I' thank Your Honour. But it is hard for these students to understand, Mr. Speaker, why the government can plow millions piled up on millions of dollars into industries that fail and when they have. to cut back because of their mistakes and their extravagance and waste the very first ones. they hit are the students in this Province, and that, Sir, is morallY wrong.

I would hope that the government - and if the han. gentleman wishes to. get up and have a few words in support of this petition and then go down on the eighth floor and·try to persuade his colleagues to reconsider this matter, well we would be very glad to hear from the han •. gentleman. But ·I hope it does not turn ·out like the spruce budworrn spray programme when the han. gentleman condemned it one day and got rapped on the knuckles by the Premier the next.· Now, Mr. Speaker, I have no doubt at all, Sir.

The students have already gone to to the Premier, they carne and they met with the Liberal caucus - they had already met with the Premier and the Premier gave some kind of indication, I believe, that there might be a light at the end of the tunnel and in the Fall of the year when .we review the situation well, it may not be quite as harsh as was originally outlined in the Budget Speech. Well, I will be curious now and anxious, Sir, to hear what the han. gentleman has to say. Will he get up now and whip the carpet out from under the feet of the Minister of Finance, the han. House Leader? tl L{/1

June 27, 1978 Tape 4828 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: If the han. the Premier does that I wi 11 say, ''F,ear, hear! Well and good1'' Because, Mr. Speaker, it would not be the first time that ministers in the han. gentleman's Cabinet have made fools of themselves and then the matter had to be rectified later on by the han.· the Premier by reversing the decision. This is one time that we would hold with the han. the Premier, if the han. the Premier will reverse this decision, reconsider this matter, and not wait until the Fall of the year because these students·want to register now.

And if the han. gentleman will get up and say,'We.are going to reconsider this matter.We are not going to inflict these huge debts on the students who want to attend post-secondary educational instutions in this Province' he would get probably .the unanimous support of the House, Sir. Certainly I can tell the han. gentleman without.even consulting with my colleague, the leader of the Opposition that we would support that kind of measure,. would we not? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, yes. . MR; NEARY: I believe the han. gentleman would get 100 support from this side of the House, but do not try and bluff the students.

If the han. gentleman does not mean it, do not get up and run a bluff, and say we might.consider it or we are going to do it- SOME'HON; MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR; NEARY: - in the Fall. We are fed up with this government bluffing. So let us hope the Premier will get up and make a firm commitment today _ SOME'HON; MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR: NEARY: - that these students can go ahead and register at the University that they will not have to pay higher tutition and residence fees in the coming academic year. SOME'HON; MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ·sPEAKER: The han. the Premier. 'PREMIER.MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, in rising to support this petition I never thought would live long enough in this House to see the member for laPoile (Mr. Neary) lecture a la the professor on the subject

June 27, 1978 Tape 4828 PK - 2 Premier Moores: of Memorial University. I think, Sir, it is probably the first positive sign we have seen in that regard, and I would suggest, Sir, his opening remarks, Sir, ~1here he supported the petition of 1,500 people as opposed to the content which he never dwelt. upon had more of an impression on the hon. gentleman than did the content itself. ·soME.HON: 'MEMBERS: PREMIER'MOORES: .. SOME . RON: MEMBERS: · . 'PREMIER.MOORES: • SOME HON. MEMBERS : .. PREMIER . MOORES: Hear, hear! However, Sir, - Oh, oh! - having said that - Oh, oh!

Well, Sir, I do not see where the spruce budworm came into that petition, and the hon. member as he waved that flag·and the red flag of the debts of the future, I will strongly recorranend once again as playing fair politics as opposed to being reasonable and looking after the petition itself. ·soME.HON: 'MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES: The fact is, Sir, that the Students Union and their Executive have met with me on two occasions. They have made quite an impression because.they are a very capable bunch.

They put togeter a pink paper, and as I said at the time I hope it· is not philosophically symbolic because the content of it basically was extremely good. The thing is, Sir, that government on this side or anywhere else)I would suggest~want to make sure that the young people of our country and of our Province have the full advantage of a university or a post-secondary education whether it be in technical, vocational,or the university itself education. At the present time the monetary ci.rcumstances we have in this Province for young people attending university is the best in Canada.

Obviously we want not. to ~place hardships on people ~1hereby they run up debts that they cannot pay back. We as .a government will do our utmost to make sure that all those who want to attend university can do so. However,as in all

June 27, 1978 Tape 4828 PK - 3 Premier Moores: aspects of society there are obligations that ·one must pay back for the benefits of society. The fact is, Sir, that the curriculum at the Trade School and at the Vocational School, I thin~ particularly has to be looked at as to what are the .opportunities in the future are going to be. Do we just carry on with more .of the same? And possibly the same for the university and the emphasis on what courses?

But irrespective of what has come up, Sir, as far as the detail of curriculum is concerned, what comes up regarding monetary policy is concerned, and as I say it is the intent of this government to ensure that any student with the ability who wants a further education will have that opportunity, the fact is also, Sir, that.the people who are attending these institutions today are going to be the leaders in the very near. future, not the distant future, They are the people who should be given the opportunity-_not just for education at the academic level, but also the exposure of what the opportunities are going .to be in this Province and in this .country in the future.

And for that reason, Sir, I· support the petition . . SOME HON; MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ·MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Port au Port. MR; ·HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to support the petition supported by 1,500 students at Memorial University. I would just like to say, Mr. Speaker, that if we are in a situation where we are more generous than the rest of Canada,then the rest of Canada is wrong, because for some reason or other - .AN HON; .MEMBER: It is not true. · MR; ·HoDDER: - since the priorities {I tf 1~

June 27,1973 Tape . ;~o. 4829 AH-1 :IR.i!ODDER: in education and priorities in the Province seem to be mixed up. lfuy is it, ~1r. Speaker, that cer~ain students in this Province can leave high school, spend a year out and go to,say,an adult education institution, be paid to go to school or paid to go to vocational school W"hile a student who decides to go to university to try to learn or to get a hi.;her education must pay the way himself? Notv I think that possibly we have gone too far thinking about jobs.

The situation now is to try. and force people into areas whereby they are being educated in order to find a job '"hen they get out and we have forgotten that we need the university, •re must encourage students to obt;;dn a university education and to forget about the job aspect of the university educZ~.tion. Because 11e need to train students v7ho can come out - I might say t:1is, :·lr. Speaker, that ·.ve m~st promote intellectual development so t;1at students can coMe out and tc:.ke

part in any type of education. From year to year different types of skills, different types of j cbs are needed, We must in tliis Province as in other provinces of Canada encourage more people to go to university so that they can take advantage of the changing society in which '"e live; t1e must train students to reason, analyse and to be able to tackle a wide variety of skills.

I The other tiling about this particular situation that has caused students to pay more money at the present time is when I went to university,in 1959 I think it was, there \Tere 700 students at the university; half of those students came from Corner Brook and Grand Falls and another third of them came from St. John's and the rest were people who were lucky enough to get in from the outports to university.

Over the last feH years this has changed and more and more students form the rural areas are able to get into university even though it costs them more i·» many cases than it does those people from the Avalon Peninsula area. Ngw, l·l;:. Speaker, the more ve tax the students, the more we make him pay,the more cl.ance there is that students 'vill drop out of university. I have already seen .instances in my district whereby students are not going back·. to university this year because they cannot afford to go back or they are afraid of the costs and everything else involved. II tf~

June 27,1978 Tape No, 4829 All-2 :·IR. HODDEit: ~lr. Speaker, I think that lve :::tust set our priorities. I know that the economic situation is bad in this Province and I knmv that we have great public debt and I know that ~Ve have to have money for water and sewer and all that sort of thing but, ~lr. Speaker, we should not cut back on education; this is not the place to cut back.

I fear that if this trend continues,where we pay people in the vocational schools and force people to pay to go to university,then I think that in the future you will find less and less people going to university, I think that would be a great detriment to this Province because I believe that the future of this Province is in the university students.

As the Premier said, I believe the university students will be the leaderlj of the very near tomorrow but I will hark back to one thing, 11hat has happened with this la.st cutback is. and I think it was said in the prayer of the petition, that financial rather than academic considerations will decide wh-ich students will attend university and I think, }1r. Speaker, that would be a great disgrace to this Province, that would be a great tragedy. HR. E. ROi~E: l1r. Speaker. i1R. SPEAKER: Han. member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. HR. F.ROw"'E: Mr.

Speaker, 1 have great pleasure in supporting the petition on behalf of 1,500 stt:dents from Hemorial University. It is sad really, Sir, I will just take a quote from the budget here, "In 1978-1979 changes will be introduced in the present policy so that students will be required"- HR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) HR. F. ROvlE: Now, :!r. Speaker, I 1vill spar with any member opposite but not with that han. member from Bonavista South (Mr.Horgan) so I will ask for the protection of the Chair. l·lR. SPEAKER: int(;rruption. ;..;_:. HO:l.l-IElillER: l·!R. F. ROiffi: l!R.CA:.LAN: l·lR. F.

RO\-IE : The han. member :1as the right to be heard witbout (Inaudible) Sir, I will repeat if I can get the silence. Name him, Hr. Speaker, name him. I will repeat,· Sir, " In 1978-1979 change a will { llf8-l

June 27,1978 Tape No. 4829 .\H-3 :·!R.F.IWiiE: be introduced to the ?resent policy so that students ;;ill be required to borrow $700 per semester under the Canada 5 tudent Loan Programme before becoming eligible for the provincial as:.i.:;t:mce. This :::h;m:;e •dll bring our policy in line with that follo~1ed in other· Atlantic provinces." No\J; Sir, that

June 27, 1978 Tape 4830 DW - 1 MR. F.

ROWE: may sound good on the surfacetthis policy ~~ill bring us in line with that fallowed in the other Atlantic Provinces~· Sir, we cannot go along with that $100 increase per semester that students have to borrow when we know full well that we only have one half the national per capita average of our students attending university and when we know full well, Sir, that we have only had full-fledged university for twenty- . eight years compared with the other Atlantic Provinces and other mainland provinces. that have had universities for hundreds of years and have the benefit of these universities for their students going into society.

Sir,we were at an extreme disadvantage by very virtue of the fact that we did not get a university until 1949. And we have a lot of catching up to do, Sir, and anything that we can do to assist students in a financial way to get through this university, Sir, we should do because we are behind to start off with in that respect. Now·, Sir, one thing that worries and concerns me is this inequity as far'as the students at Memorial University are concerned.

When I was a spokesman for education I used to bring this topic up many a.time.that we have too many of our students coming out of high school and attending a post secondary educational institution on the basis .of the amount of money he or she can get in the way of a salary or an allowance. For example,! know students who are going to the College of Trades and Technology not because they want to go to the College of Trades and Technology but because they know they can get more· money, more ·allowance ··to put them through there.

And we have inequity, Sir, when 1~e compare the Fisheries College, the Vocational School, the College of Trades and Technology and Memorial University. l~e do not have any standardization whatsoever of financial assistance to these students. And we have gross inequities· existing from one institution to another and I am afraid, Sir, that we have too many people coming out of our high schools and going to the educational institution not of their choice but going to a particular institution because of financial necessity. I am afnaid

June 27, 1978 Tape 4830 DW - 2 . MR. F. ROWE: Sir, that is not the way to train people and educate people to enter into our society. Sir, the fact of the matter is. that we have too many of our students not going to unive~sity,wanting to go to the university but not going because they know ·full well that when they get out they will kave a monumental debt on their hands 1 a ·monumental debt. That is one problem.that the students have to contend with and they ~re scared of, but the other problem:; Sir, and I would like to - I have to .close on this one.

I would like to speak to it a little while longer,But I feel very strongly the students who are going to our university should get more guidance in terms of what particular faculty or department they wish to go into. Because I am afnaid, Sir, that we are piling students into certain divisions, c.ertain departments, certain faculties and they do not have a job apport unity tvhen they came out. They came out with a huge debt. and no job.

I do not mean force them into a department or force them out of a department 1but they should be made aware of the job potential once they get out of the university and I think·that is very, very important, Sir. So, Sir, I whole-heartedly support this very, very important petition. SOME RON • ME?-!BERS : MR. SPEAKER: }ffi. LUSH: Hear, hear! The han .... member for Terra Nova. Mr.

Speaker, I rise to support this petition presented on behalf of 1,500 students, students who are concerned about the direction of education in this Province and concerned about the quality of education and the disastrous results which are apparent from the change in the student~aid and the student loan structure. Mr. Speaker, there is absolutely no way that this Province can afford to have its educational development,intellectual development of its young people tied ~o the wealth of the parents of the young people of this Province.

Certainly that should not be a consideration-fhe consideration for education in this Province should be intellectual ability and any

June 27; 1978 Tape 4830 DW - 3 }!R. LUSH: student who has the ability to profit and take advantage of a university education must be afforded that opportunity,.must· be afforded that right and there is no way, Mr. Speaker, that this Province should agree to a universal application of the Canada Student Loan. It 'cannot be applied universally b.ecause of our special problems 1 one, 'the high unemployment rate among young people, the difficulty for young people to get a job ·in this Province makes it mandatory that there will be

June 27, 1978 Tape 4831 PK - 1 MR. LUSH: special considerations with respect to the loan plan for students of this Province. It is very difficult for young people to get a job, and because of that that they are not going to be able to get back to the university unless there is some flexibility in the .student aid programme for the students of this Province. Secondly, we have less students attending university, a less percentage of our total population than any other province of Canada.

Thati·is another reason why that we cannot have the Canada Student Aid applied to this Province as it is in other provinces of Canada. 14e cannot do it, Mr. Speaker. There must be special consideration for this Province in view of the high unemployment, and in view of the fact that a large percentage or that we do not have the same percentage rate of students attending university as is the case in other provinces of Canada. Mr.

Speaker, the new arrangement the government is now proposing is going to put our students head and ears in debt, and that is why our enrollment is falling off at the University because students do not want to saddle themselves with this extra burden. I think. in the brief that the students presented to the Premier that they show that under the old system that they would receive - they would have rece.ived under the old system a total loan of $4,500 which meant that when they finished university they would be paying back $58 a month.

Under the new programme, under the new system, under the structure whereby the government is ,demanding that students borrow $700 a semester, under this new system it means that the students would accumulate a total loan of $7,000, just about double the amount under the old system,$4,5ooas opposed to $7,000, and for a monthly payment of $91. Just about doubled, Mr. Speaker, and that is a tremendous financial burden to put on the students of this Province to go from $58 a month to $91 a month.

And there. is no wonder, no wonder that students are not going to university when they look at that kind of debt, ~1 hen they look at that kind of financial burden that is going to be placed upon them. Mr. Speaker, I would hope that the government would reverse this decision immediately to make university accessible to our students, not on the basis of wealth of their parents, not on the

June 27, 1978 Tape 4831 PK - 2 Mr. ·Lush: basis of money, but on the basis of intellectual ability. MiL SPEAKER: The hen. the member for St. John's Hest.. DR; . KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support this petition signed by, I believe, 1,500 people on behalf of, I am sure,a great many more both presently at Memorial and who would like to go there· ;but cannot presently afford to go. AN HON; MP~BER: There are other petitions, too~ DR. KITCHEN: The fact is that this Province sends very few people to post-secondary institutions.

The latest research that I have seen indicates that compared to Nova Scotia one-third of our young people go to university and similar institutions as go from Nova Scotia, and the Nova Scotian aver.age is the Canadian average pretty well. He are well behind in the number of young people ·who go to university and to vocational schools.

So there is a great need, in my opinion, to encourage more people to go to post-secondary institutions. would not want to discourage people from going. to the College of Trades or the vocational schools or the College of Fisheries because that is very, very important, and for far too long have these institutions borne, in my view,the dirty end of the stick in education, the non-prestigious part,whereas we should be building up these institutions as well as Memorial. But it has got to the point now where Memorial students find it very difficult, and the people who go to Memorial are changing in their nature.

There are fewer people from poorer families, fewer rural people, and fewer people from very small communities, They tend now to be, as mentioned by my colleague, very much people who are from larger and larger centres. And the reason is that because people from smaller communities cannot afford to go. Now then what would this cost? Hhat is being asked really is that - what the government has done is forced people to borrow $250 more instead of giving a grant for $250.

And this means if a person is suppose to borrow $250 a semester, say they go two semesters a year for five. years, that is ten semesters usually to get a five year degree, that would be $2,500 that that person \ l t{-~1

'. June 27, 1978, Tape 4832, Page 1 -- apb DR. KITCHEN: has to borrow over and above what he would normally have to borrow if he were given the grants. You are talking about $2,500 per student.

And per year, from the point of view of the government paying it out- the average student, say a couple of semesters $250, $500 for each student, $500 per student that the government would have to give him in grants instead of the student borrowing loans, $500, and if you have 10,000 students, Memorial has only 8,000, that is about $2 .million a year,. $8000 times 500 that is $4 million a year, $4 million and not all of these, of course, would be eli9ible for the total amount so you are probably talking about a sum considerably less .than $4 million a year, perhaps about $2 million a year. MR. SIMMONS: DR.

KITCHEN: very good. The same as the Action Group. The same as the Action Group, About $2 million a year maybe. I am not sure what the figures are because I do not have the numbers in front of me. But we are not talking about many millions we are talking perhaps about a couple of million dollars per year,at most $2 million. Now, where could they save this money? Without getting into the Action Group and things like that,I think money could be shaved off the education budget to provide for that. Let us look at Memorial's budget itself. I believe Memorial University is over­ administered.

I could save money tomorrow morning if I fired out some of those vice-presidents. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear; hear! DR. KITCHEN: We could do the same thing with the Board of Regents. That huge Board of Regents could be lopped and could meet much more efficiently and it would save travelling expenses and so on. I believe that a university like Memorial couid very well be forced

June 27, 1978, Tape 4832, Page 2 -- apb DR. KITCHEN: by this. government to disclose its budget so we will know, all of us will know· in the House of Asembly, precisely what it is they are wasting or wisely spending their money on. And if the. money is not available from Memorial's. budget .then it · might very well be available from some other part of the educational budget other than Memorial. And believe ·you me, .I can find ways to shave money off the education budget besi·des doing what the government did by taking it away from the extra teachers. You do not need to do that.

You could look ·at some of the money that is being spent on certain specialist teachers in this Province, some of the specialists - I will not name them as .there are ·some good specialists, but there are some other teachers that this Province cannot afford. I believe we should look at, and look at very carefully the education budget and trim where necessary, and I am sure that we can trim the $2 million necessary per annum to support this petition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice followed by the hon. members for Lewisporte and Grand Falls. MR. HICKMAN: If I may have but a quick word.

I am somewhat at a loss in following the hon. the member for St. John's West (Dr. Ki.tchen) because my understanding is that this petition ~ AN HON. MEMBER: Are you supporting this? MR. HICKMAN: I am supporting it but I am not quite certain where the hon. the member for St. John's West stands. Because the petition as read by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition asks for an increase in the grants to Memorial w~ereas the hon. member for St, John's West is suggesting that if we want to shave some money off we should cut back' further on the grants to Memorial by shaving off the extravagance -·and he nods

June 27, 1978, Tape 4832, Page 3 -- apb MR. HICKMAN : his head in agreement. Am I correct in my

interpretation of what the hon. gentleman has said? DR. KITCHEN: MR. HICKMAN: (Inaudible) • Yes. Right! Now, Mr. Speaker, this is a very vexing problem and one that does not lend itself to easy solution but there are certain facts that we must bear in mind. The hon. member for St. John's West drew to the attention of the House that we have considerably less number of students attending university than in Nova Scotia. He did not say, and I wish he had, and I think it is very apropos this petition, as to what the cause for it is.

It surely is not money because our grants to students are considerably higher than those in Nova Scotia. For instance, in the three Maritime Province where they have a uniform student loan plan, and a uniform student grant plan as initiated by the Maritime Provincesof Higher Education1 Committee, the first $1,400 of need is under the Canada student loan, the next $1,000 is a provincial grant and the next $400 is a Canada student loan for a total maximum of $2,800 to all single and married students.

They make no distinction in the Maritime Provinces, the so-called affluent provinces of the Maritimes between married and single. In Newfoundland, what we are proposing in this year's budget commencing in September is the first $1,400 of need would be a Canada student loan and then a provincial grant of $2,000, precisely double that of any of the Maritime Provinces,and the next $400 Canada loan. In addition, in this Province there is a grant of $500 more for married students which means that the maximum for Newfoundland is $3,400 for single students and $3,900 for married students,

whereas in the Maritime it is a total of

June 27, 1978, Tape 4832, Page 4 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: $2800. Yet, that substantial increase that we have in this Province over the Maritimes still leaves us with the problem that the hon. the member for St. John's West has raised, that in the three Prov;inces where their grants are rather miserly compared to ours,

June 27 ,19i3 Tape 4833 AH-1 they have wore students going to university. So I would suspect, Mr. Speaker, that it' is not just addressing ourselves to ••hat this Province :1as the fiscal capacity to pay but also there have to be some other reasons besides the cost of going to university for the less interest or number of applications we have from :1ewfoundlanders as compar~d to our sister provinces. I think it is also worthy of r.ote that the tuition ttt Hemorial is below that of any ~laritime ·university. A.'l HON.NEHBER: (Inaudible) NR. · !-:I CK:·iAN : .·Yet with all of those combined, Mr.

Speaker, and bearing in mind our fiscal capacity to pay,the Maritime provinces seem to be attracting more students than we are. Maybe there is a·more diversified programme. I do rtot kno~'· But whatever it is, t-fr. Speaker, the student loan one has not helped us even though t·le are far mo'Ee generous than it has helped them. HR. SPEAKER: Hon.member for Lewisporte. l!R.l-IHITE: Hr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition presented by the Leader of the Opposition today signed by 1,500 students. It is a very important matter, Mr.

Speaker, and if I might refer to one thing that the l!!inister of Finance just mentioned: He talked about the number of students attending university in Nova Scotia as compared to Ne\~oundland and the amounts of money available to each. I suggest to the Hinistcr of Finance that if the unemployment rate in Newfoundland were down to nine per cent as it·:Es in Nova Scotia you would· get more people going to university because they could afford to do so. ru'i :iON .:-!El·lBER: Hear, hear! MR. WHITE: Hr.

Speaker, if there is ever a time in i,e,,.foundland ••hen we meed to pay more attention to the young people today than we ever did before it is now. The population figures will she~; tnat the people in the gallery and the people going to university represent fifty per cent, over fifty per cent of the population of this Province is under the age of twenty-two, -twenty-three years . How, is the time :'lr. Speaker, when we shoul<.! be payinG attention to those young people

June 27,1978 Tape No. 4833 AH-2 HR. \;l{ITE: because !f we do not we are going to be in serious trouble a decade down the road. Now essentially what has happend in Newfoundland over ti1e last eight or ten years, Mr. Speaker, is that St. John's, the urban area of St; John's has been taken care of in terms of post-secondary education, the urban area of Corner Brook has been taken care of lvith the Regional College,and what you are left with, ~r.

Speaker; is an area in between, essentially the rural area of Newfoundland who has once again been discriminated against, the rural areas 9nce again discriminated against at a time,i1r. Speaker, when the traditional incomes of Newfoundlanders has been reversed ,and that in- rural areas of the Province is where the economic base of this Province is being stabilized and is being held up. It is the rural areas that are keeping this Province going at the present time,yet at every turn this government gives the rural areas the knife. It is the same with education, Hr.

Speaker, and unless we realize that >Ve are going to be in serious trouble in this Province. He do not want to turn it into a university of the rich and urbanites; we want the university to be a.place where people can attend from all over thi~ Province and not be sacrificed because of that. So I say, Mr. Speaker, and I agree ;dth the member for St.

John's Hest ~Jr.Kitchen) that it is not money to the administration that we are talking l:bout,i.t·iS xoney to the students because we must get the studer.ts back into the universitY. and stop this declining enrolment that we have going on now because ~e are faced '"itll a large population of this Province ~·:!10 do not have ver;· much to look fonrard to unless ;;e deal with it a<1d deal with it seriously in tl1is House. SO:lli liON .i'IEHSERS: ?·lR. SPE.\KER: ;·:R. LUNDRIGA;;: Hear, hear! Hou. member for Grand Falls. Hr.

Speaker, I coulti possibly sum up my conunents by just associati..."lg my rer.1arks ;;ith the :nember foJ: St. John's \Jest (Dr.Kitcher) '"hom I believe made a pretty non-political state;.knt. :rmv some of us in taking

part in our debate today or in response to the petition presentation-

June 27,1978 Tape 11o, 4333 AH-3 :·lR. LU:<DRIG~-l: I hope I am ·not accused of being sort of associating vit:l the professionals t{hen I say this, but I think they have been rr,ore sort of vocal in a·negative sense than they have been constructive and I think the meraber for St. John's ~·lest (Dr. Kitchen) summed it up when he said, I think this is what he said at least to me, was that we should be looking at the priorities of spending of the dollars that we are spending at the university. Liow the :nember for Letnsporte (Mr. 1-.'lri.te) referred to the unemployment statistics and the unemployment proble:n.

I believe it is a fact that if we had a full compliment .of people at the secondary institutions in our Province today, comparable to the national average,and a full compliment of students retained in our pre-secondary system or our primary,elementary and secondary school system ) \ t.tq3

June 27, 1978 Tape 4834 DW :.. 1 HR. LUNnRIGAN: the national average and on a full compliment·. of student retained in our pre-secondary system or our primary elementary and secondary school system.that we would see a very substantiBl difference in the unemployment rate.

Because many of the people who are on the unemployment rolls and the unemployment statistics are there by virtue of the fact that they are not properly in secondary institutions or post secondary institutions and that is one of the reasons why the rate is so high in this Province~ ~ut more importantly I want '·. to say that we are this year spending $46,672,000 at the university, $4if million at Memorial University of Newfoundland and Labrador.

So·; far this year it is practically gone unnoticed, practically nobody has talked about it ,we have not had a debate on it ~and maybe it is about time that we had an open commentary on the priorities of the university spending. Now one of the things I have just briefly broached, and I j us"t want to raise it again~ls this, that we are spending $8 million of that S4 7 million, $.8 million of that total budget goes to the eduaation of approximately fifty-five to sixty students at r1emorial UniversitYj that is the _Medical School.

Now I understand from conversations with professional people that we are pretty well satisfied in this Province t~ith respect to the medical needs in terms of the abundance of doctors. About $8 million~ Now if you will subtract· the capital dollars from the $46 million you are looking at a big large chunk of the education dollar spent in post secondary education going for fifty-five.· or sixty students. Now I question that,! do .. not say it is wrong,! do not say we should dump it out,I do not say we should eliminate the Medical School, but.

I question the priority when the preponderance of the education dollars at l1emorial are going to fifty-five or sixty students • l-lhether they are in. the priesthood, the medical system, educators, or whatever the heck they are in 7 there is some.thing wrong tvith that kind of a system. Now there' is tvhere I would like to raise my concern and that is that so far the university -and I am a former colleague·· of two. of my colleagues across the way who have spoken this

June 27, 1978 Tape 4834 RT-2 :-m. LIDIDRIGAN: afternoon, Trinity-Bay de Verde and St. John's l~est - I question, despite the fact that I might incur the wrath of some of my administrative colleagues at the university, the people who are in charge of the system, the lieutenants,if you want, I question that we are getting the full value for the education dollar that goes into post secondary education at Memorial. And that is about the type of thing that I think we should air,· we should talk about. The students are quite proper in bringing forward their concerns.

I have been part of the quiet revolution at the university when I was a student for quite a number of years, and subsequently as a member of the. faculty_ I was not very shy in speaking out and I think this is quite proper for the students to. demonstrate their concerns, bring it forward, articulate it;.if they do not do that I think there is something wrong with them if they cannot come forward and pressure Government, pressure society for their concerns and their needs.

But the thing I would like to advise them about through the medium of the House of Assembly is to start to question the university as well in terms of what is happening to the education dollar. Perhaps they will discover that it is all being spent quite wisely, that everything is in the proper hierarchy of needs. I doubt it very, very sincerely. This is why .. I think the member for St. John's \~est (Dr. Kitchen) raised the question about re-directing the spending patterns at the university. I think maybe that my colleague, the Minister of Finance, misunderstood him somewhat when he responded there a minute ago.

But that is the kind of question I would l!ke to raise. I will raise it more vociferously as times goes on and I would to encourage my colleagues to raise the same _question. ~m. SPEAKER : Han. member for Hindsor-Buchans. HR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably presented by the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, I recall not that long ago when Memorial University, or a college it was at the time with two to three hundred people enrolled, the feeling outside of St.John's­ I found out since that it might have been wrong - but the feeling outside

June 27, 1978 Tape No. 4834 RT-3 MR. G. FLIGHT: of St. John's t·ms that it was then an elitist universit~ Practically every student graduati~e outside of St.John's in rural Newfoundland went to Mount Allison, Acadia, or Dalhousie, and they believed that the reason they could not get into Jiremorial was that they could not afford it. Well now we have found out since that apparently l(emorial could only .accommodate two or three hundred students and therefore we were forced to go to the ~~inland to university. Well, Mr. Speaker, there was a feeling then that Memorial may have been elitist.

Maybe it was not but I agree with the House Leader that there is a danger that it will become an elitist university. Mr. Speaker, I understood that ~emorial was conceived and built during the fifties and sixties to take care of the needs of Newfoundland students, our young people graduating from Crade XI all across the Province who had the acacemic wherewithal to go to university. That supposedly was the purpose. It appears to a lot of people now, l1r. Speaker, that we are starting to compete. We want an international university. We are competing with Cambridge,

June 27, 1978, Tape 4835, Pagel-- apb MR. FLIGHT: Harvard, Oxford, and whether or not that is necessary, whether we can afford it, and whether or not that approach is what is causing the administration of Memorial to price the students out of the university. Mr. Speaker, it costs $3,000. Any student from rural Newfoundland today who wants to attend two semesters, do a year in university, it will cost him $3,000. The maximum student aid they can get is $1,800 - $900 per semester. Now, regardless they must come up with $1,200 and, Mr.

Speaker, there are a lot of .families right at this time who cannot come up with that $1,000 or $1,200. The Premier indicated in his speech of support that no Newfoundlander would be turned away from the doors of the university. Well I do not know where the Premier has been because I can introduce him to dozens of young Newfoundlanders who not only have been turned away because they cannot afford it - they were not turned away, they were not silly enough to apply when they knew what it cost.

I can introduce him to young students who have . credits towards their degree and have to quit because they could not afford to continue. I can introduce him to students who stayed out for one year to earn enough money to go back. Added to their student aid it would allow them to go back if they worked a year but because they worked a year the bank called the loan, put the student in a position where he was no longer eligible for future student aid and now he is looking at being. eight or nine. credits short of a degree. No way is he going to go back to the university, he cannot afford it. And, Mr.

Speaker, there is something else that should be remember here, that when a student does go to Memorial and does get a degree, if he is sitting around looking for a job,which he will be doing and he is doing in this Province right now, the interest

June 27, 1978, Tape 4835, Page 2 -- apb MR .. FLIGHT: starts to pile up so he comes out with a $4,500 or $5,000 debt and by the time he gets into a position to start paying it it is $6,000 or $7,000 or $8,000. Mr. Speaker, we might as well face the fact that there are hundreds and hundreds of young Newfoundlanders in this Province today who cannot, even with the programmes that ar.e available, .cannot attend university. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. FLIGHT: And what about the family that has two or three sons and daughters who want to go to university when it costs .$1,0.00 to subsidize one?

Where is that $3,000 coming from? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. FLIGHT: That is right. That is right. So let us stop this nonsense of saying there are no young Newfoundlanders today who cannot go to university. There are hundreds and if this trend continues there will be thousands. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I was waiting because I thought the minister was going to want to speak ·on this one, the Minister of Education • . P.REMIER MOORES : (Inaudible) MR. S:IMMONS: I want to hear what he had to say to see if there was anything new on the subject. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: The Premier is in a nasty mood. I am sure he· is missing Bally Haly but he can go down no¥7 that he has punched in his five minutes in the House. .MR. NEARY: We should get a little green carpet.on the- MR. SIMMONS: He can go down.any time he wants to now. It must be hard, it must.be tough being in the House more than five minutes a day.

June 27, 1978, Tape 4835, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER MOORES : With you here, yes. MR. SIMMONS: Yes,with me here especially·· since I do not play golf with him. ·PREMIER MOORES: (Inaudible) MR. SIMMONS: Ah, go back to _Bally Haly, boy, for goodness sake, at least you make some sense down there. MR. LUNDRIGAN: (Inaudible) . MR. SIMMONS: Dignity from Grand Falls. MR. WHITE: MR. SIMMONS : three - MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker - thank you, Mr. That is right. Mr. Speaker, we have heard from Advise on who is right and who is wrong, and what petitions are right and what petitions are wrong. MR. WHITE: MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR.

NEARY: except the Social Credit. MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. SIMMONS: The people will decide that. (Inaudible) Criticizing everybody now (Inaudible) You are quite finished,are you? Mr. Speaker, we have heard from three members of the government side so far. A nice little patronizing speech by the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan). He is in a nice soft, patronizing mood today; he gave the children at the university a nice little lecture, a nice little talk, a nice little talk. Of course, the member for Grand Bank, Mr. Speaker, I wish he would read this pink paper.

I wish he would read it he has his facts all snarled up, Mr. Speaker. Every university student would like to have a minute or two with the financial wizard over there to find out how he gets $3,400 as the maximum. They would like to know how he does it because they would like to do it too. His figures are way off, Mr. Speaker, way off, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of dollars off, way off, and it is

June 27, 1978 Tape 4836 IB-1 :-JR. SH!MONS: that kind o£ misinformation, Mr. Speaker, coupled with a bit of patronizing that makes this problem all the more aggrevating. Now the most positive statement made, and it was kind of missed today, Mr. Speaker, the most positive statement made in this entire exchange was by the Premier. I do not know if it escaped people or if it was written off as so many more weasel words or what but I found what he said encouraging. He supported the petition. The other two, Mr.

Speaker, actually did not support it and I wish they would not stand up and break the rules of the House because they were not in support of it and they should not have stood, the member from Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) and the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Hickman). It was clear from what they said that they were against the petition. But the Premier did say, Mr. Speaker, in no uncertain terms that he supports the petition. I went along to make sure of the words that he was supporting. He supports an increase in government support: He said that. He said he su~ports the petition.

Either he is a man of his word or he is no.t. He told us today in this House and it is on the record now, he supports the petition. The petition asks for two things, that the allocation be reconsidered as it affects University students and that there be an in- creased amount of government support. supports that. He said he So I suppose we can fully expect, Mr. Speaker, that within the next day or so the Minister of Education, and· that is why I was waiting because I had hoped he would put into words the concept that the Premier announced.

So I suppose in the next day or so if we take the Premier at his w_ord, we can hear an

June 27, 1978 Tape 4836 IB-2 :m. SIMNONS: announcement by the Minister of Education or the Premier of the detail of this increased support that the Premier has announced today or am I misreading his support. Is it weasel words he gave us today, Mr. Speaker? Was it a convenient thing to get up and say in words he supported it? Can we read into it what he has said, namely, I support the petition. I, he says or says the Premier support increased government support. If that is what he means then in the next few days, Mr.

Speaker, we will hear the details of that and how much this $700 has been cut back and the entire details to allow students around this Province and potential students, Mr. Speaker, to make their plans for the Fall. So I ask the Premier now to follow through not as he has done in the case of the Grand Falls Hospital with lots of words and no action.

But to follow up his words of support today with so~e action in the next day or so, an announcement, a mailing out .to the students, some communications to the University, to the student council over there, to let all concerned know what it is exactly he means by standing in the House today and giving his support to this petition as I certainly do. l·fR. SP.EAKER: Before recognizing the hon: member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan),I would welcome to the House on behalf of hon. members three gentlemen from the community of Cormack; the Chairman of the Community Council, Mr. Rick Woodford, the Vice Chairman, Mr.

Howard Hewitt and an additional member of the council, Hr. Melvin Rideout. I hope hon. members join me in welcoming these three gentlemen to the House of Assembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. (I~ 6 (

June 27, 1978 Tape 4836 IB-3 l1R. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, as a former student of both campuses of Memorial'University, the old and the new,and as a fo~mer school teacher but especially, Mr. Speaker, as a former student of the University for several years I want to stand and speak in support of this petition presented by the Leader of the Opposition on behalf of 1,500 concerned s~udents at the University, a University that was built as a memorial, Mr. Speaker. Well it looks like it is bein~ downgraded in recent ~imes. Mr.

Speaker, these students are asking that government not make it any more difficult for them to attend university by forcing them to borrow more money. Mr. Speaker, I know the plight of these students,! think. As a student there myself I remember going in one year and having to stay out for a couple of years in order to gather up enough money to go back again.

During the Summers,because we did not have the semester system at that time, I would find myself working down in the lumber woods to try to get a few dollars or working in provincial parks or marking Grade XI and XII exams in Wolfville, Nova Scotia and doing everything in the world that you could do to scrape a few dollars together so that you did not have to go back to University in the Fall depending on your parents to finance you throu~h another year. I think, Mr.

Speaker, I borrowed $1,000 in a student loan during my time at the University and I did not think the world was going to last long enough for me to pay it back, that

June 27, 1978 Tape. !'lo. 4837 JM - 1 MR. CALLAN: one thousand dollars that dragged on and on and on. I have taught with teachers, a man and his wife just a few years ago who had to delay. starting their little family because .each of them had gone through university four or five years straight .and were burdened with student loans, the man and the wife,Hhich took them, 11r. Speaker, a couple of years of their first couple of years of teaching to live, buy a fr.~~ groceries and to pay off the loans that they had accumulated. ~r.

Speaker, I think that every Newfoundlander in this Province has the right to a fair and decent chance to get a university education if he or she so decides that is wr..at they ~~ant to do. I think, ~r. Speaker, that any attempt by government to make it more difficult for students to attend universities and avail themselves of the opportunity that is there, to perhaps improve their lot in life, perhaps improve it to give them a better chance at life than their parents be.fore them had I think any attempt by government to stifle that opportunity is a. bac!~1ard step. It is :tot ?regressive, Mr.

Speaker, by any stretch.of the immagination. It is not progressive. It should :tot ~one from a Progressive Conservative Gove~~ent because it is retrogressive. !.:hen you lao:, around, !!r. Speaker, and when you listen to t:1e radio and hear the announcements of the few :11iles of paved road that are going into a few PC districts you wonder why arc not these few million dollars being put where t:1ey would be best spent, giving the young people of our province the chance that they '.-lant and t:1at· they deserve, the leaders of tomorrow a chance to get a decent education. lfP.. SPEAKEP.: :r.:t. RIDEOUT: !-!r.

Spe.:.ker, I support the petition. The hon. member for Baie Verte-l.fuite Bay. :rr. Speaker, I cannot let this opportunity pass without saying a word or two in support of the prayer of the petition presented by my colleague, the Leader of the Opposition on behalf of 1,500 or so students at the university especially, ~!r. Speaker, coming as it does on the heels of petitions numbering I suppose in 7,000 or 3,000 of our fello~~ tlewfoundlat'lders who have seen fit over the past t(cjo3

June 27, 1978 Tape No. 4837 J11 - 2 ~!R. RIDEOUT: number of months since that dreadful! day in :·larch when we had the Budget, thousands of people all. around the Province who have sent in petitions protesting about cutbacks in educational expenditure in other areas. So this petition, Hr. Speaker, is just another l,SOO,and I understand. more to come,added on to the 7,000 or 8,000 or 10,000 people who have already shown their displeasure with government policy with regards to spending on education in the Province and if the government does not have the message by now, ~1r.

Speaker., then I wonder what is wrong that the message has not gotten through already, Now I. sympathize with a number of opinions that have been expressed this afternoon and that is why I think the hour or. so that we have spent have been well spent in talking about the cut backs in education and the extra money that students in this Province have been forced to borrow. I sympathize with a number of the points that have been raised by'other speakers especially on this side of the House as unfortunately not too many have spoken from the other side. But I ~~ould suspect, Mr.

Speaker, .that there are names on that petition from every single political district in this Province and therefore I would think that the onus would be on every member to sho~~ at least their thoughts or give some form of support to the prayer of the petition. The financial burden, Mr. Speaker, placed on students of this Province - •rc can compare apples and ,apples or we can compare apples or oranges which is ~Jhat the 11inster of Justice wants to do t~hen he talks about expenditure and student loan levels in other parts of the Atlantic region. tve can talk about that all day but the simple fact remains, l1r.

Speaker, that students in this Province have to borrow for an ordinary five year programme up\mrds to $10,000 and therefore be $10,000 in debt by the time they come out of the university. If they get married a couple of years after they come out of university then the family unit is in debt anywheres around $20,000 and if they get another $30~000 or $40,000 mortgage then they are buried before IISoLf

June 27, 1978 Tape No. 4837 JU - 3 ~fR. RIDEOUT : they are four or five years into their career. So , Mr. Speaker, \ve are certainly placing an onerous financial burden on the students of this Province. I know we have to expect them to borrow some but I think

June 27,1978 Tape No. 4638 All.-1 HR.RIDEOUT: that we have to have a careful look at it especially in view of what is happening with regards to Canada Hanpower Training Programmes in the vocational schools and the technical colleges and so on. It seems to me that the university students are coming off on the short end of the stick, and this particular policy, Mr. Speaker, that we have seen enunciaged ·in the budget does even worse than that~it put.s a· student in the rural area of this Province coming off on the shorter end of the stick,if that is possible. Students living in close proximity to St.

John's and Corner Brook will not find it as f~.ancially severe to go to university as does a studerit living in Roddickton or anywhere else in w-nite Bay and other rural areas of the Province, These are the students that are going to suffer more financially. Again as I have said on other pet~tions presented in this House on other educational matters that the inequity between the rural and the urban centers of the Province becomes more severe under the policy annunciated and followed by this present administration. Mr.

Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition and I hope that the l1inister of Finance will give careful consideration to the prayer of the petition. MR. SPEAKER: i-!R. STRACHAN: Hon.member for Eagle River. Hr. Speaker, I support the prayer of this petition especially so since I represent a part of this Province where it is extremely difficult for many people to come to university• Many times they are leaving home for the first time and they face fairly high costs. ~here is a strange mixture in Labrador and we have some people who can be covered by certain grants

whereas other people cannot, out what we must ·guard against is creating an elitist university. I knovr from my own background ~laving been educated in Britain that there was nothing worse than to have a university which catered only to the five per cent of the country, the very rich,and the ordinary people had to struggle all the time to try and get into university. The demands on their family and the demands on themselves financially · arc overburdening. ~he people, the young people, the students, the grade elevens who go on into university should not be burdened by high costs or going into debt right at the

June 27,1978 ~1R. STRACHAN: Tape ~o. 4338 AH-2 beginning of their lives, putting themselves seriously in debt. I am sure that ti1e mon.ay which is going to be raised by raising the fees cannot be a tremendous amount and I am sure that there are many, many other ways in which the cutbacks or .the cutback financially or the raising of money financially can be done rather than taxing the ordinary student. Of course,this very system penalizes those students who can least affort it and therefore it is in essence an elitist tax, an elitist penalty on students.

It is a penalty which can only be felt generally by the· ordinary people, the ordinary student from t!-,e ordinary· family. The additional money is no burden to those who are rich and welloff so what we are doing in essence, as the budget did in many ways, what we are doing is hurtinr the ordinary people, the ordinary individual, the ordinary person who does not have a great deal of money, who is trying to struggle to give himself an education.

And an education basically is a right to all, Lducation is not something which is a privilege, it is not something which is ·only given to the privileged; it is a right to everyone, all should obtain it regardless of financial means or regardless of whatever background they come from, especially those people from Labrador,~.any of them who come to university leave Labrador, leave small communities for the first time, they have extreme difficulty in trying to maintain .themselves at university.

I talk apart from the native ~eople who are covered by a certain other kind of grant and so on although there are many mistakes in that system as we discussed before, where iohere are brothers and sisters some will obtain a grant and the others will rtot. But I feel stron~ly that the method of taxing, and that is exactly what it is, taxing the ordinary student by raising tuition fees at?-d resident.ial fees. is a retrograde step in education, it is a step which is not necessary.

If we are trying to raise funds from elsewhere then surely there must be other mechods of doing it and I also believe that · some of the extravagances, the waste, some of the conditions under which the university has been operating in the past could be trimmed. There are many other ways of getting at the source of this rather than hitting the only people that this government wants to hit and that is the ordinary

June 2.7,1978 Tape No. 4838 AH-3 NR. STRACHlu.'l: student. What we are seeing here is that whenever extra money is to be raised then the ordinary people are going to have to raise it, they are going to be taxed. I think this is totally

June 27, 1978 Tape No. 4339 :-ffi. STRACKA,..'1: they are going to be taxed and I thinl~ this is totally ~~eng. It may c~eate and is leading dovm the road towards an elitist system of education which I am totally opposed to, totally against. I think that this is a right that every citizen, every person in this Province should have,to send their children to school or the students themselves go to university and I think. that the imposition of such a taxation foro on students is totally and absolutely .,~eng and retrograded. petition. m\. SPEAKER: Hr.

Speaker, I support the prayer of this The hen. 11inister of Education foliowed by the hon. gentleman for Fortune-Hermitage. J}f - 1 :rn.. W. HOUSE: Hr. Speaker, in rising to speak to the petition I wish to associate myself with the remarks of the Premier at the beginning and for that reason I had not intended to speak to the petition.

I think our total philosophy is to assure that no student is prevented from getting an education and that is the total philosophy behind the student aid programme as it is .envisagedby the Canadian nation, Canadian Government. lve have I think in the past been the Province which have had the best student aid programme because contrary to what people think it is not just a loan programme. The loan programme up to this year was'$900.00 per semister and then students qualified for grants depending on their need and that could go as high as $1,000 per semester.

This year of course that has changed a little as it has gone to $700.00 to put us in line with the rest of the ~!aritimes. As far as •·1e are concerned ,this is still one of the better student aid programmes although I am assured now that Ontario has a different programme of 1~hich I do not have the full details.

But apart from that we have one of the better student aid programmes but we do have problems and the problems of course is the fact of employment of our students in the summer where they cannot get adequate funds and then of course they have the parental allowance and some of the poorer students as a matter of fact are better off than the students 1~ho are

June 27, 1978 Tape No. .4839 JM- 2 HR. HOUSE: on the borderline because a student who qualifies for the full grant and loan seems to be better off-than those who are borderline, tvho can just get advantage of the loan which is $700.00 per semester beginning in the fall. One of ·the things was mentioned also by speakers on the other side was the fact of the student aid for people going to various trades programmes and that is true.

That is one of the, anomalies in the old student aid programme; a student comes out for a year and if he goes to a vocational school or a trade school and can qualify for a Manpower allowance he .gets his total way paid or just about; he g~ts a very substantial grant. We have brought this matter up with the Federal Government on several occasions and of··,course, They are firm i.n their status, the status of student aid for university and that they will provide $900.00, up to $900,00·per semester in loans.

But what we have been trying to do and we still have an active committee and the council of ministers is trying to get them to share in the loan and the grant and of course we are not having very ouch success with it. We recognize the hardship, Hr. Speaker, that is forced on students and I have been studying the paper that they have 'presented and of course we tvill be looking at it in the coming year. petition. '1R. SPEAKER: ~1R. J. WINSOR: Certainly in principal I do support the The hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage. Hr. Speaker, I t.;ould like to support this petition so ably presented by our leader.

The minister says tve have one of the better programmes. I do not see any reason why we should not have the best. He are throwing t!1.e onus back on· the 3reat middle class population ,.;ho have to pay for everything and ui thout the middle class people v?here '"auld tve be as that is tvhere our gross provincial product comes fro~ really, t~e efforts of.these people. Unfortunately if anythin?, • tl5 I 0

June 27, 1978 Tape 4840 RT-1 I would say without fear of contradiction that the middle class parent today has his back against the wall as much as anybody or more so because he has to.pay the most of everything, the most taxes, and you are asking for an extra $250 on a student's loan for university.

I know personally that certain young men and young women who are going to university or who were intending to go to university without asking their parents who really know the financial picture and most families unfortunately have to discuss it over the dinner table and usually the father or the mother says, "I am sorry, you cannot have that new bike and it looks like your sister cannot go to university because we are going to have to dig down a little de!!per".

So the child, if we can call him a child after they leave Grade XI, says, "Oh well, I will apply to the Trades and Technology School, or Vocational School, go in for beauty culture, or something else, secretarial science or any of the courses that they do give". This is a retrogressive movement as far as I am concerned. I do think that for the extra - I am guessing at the figures - around $2,000,000 that it is going to cost the Government to pony up and keep their level at what it was before - $450, I think- this would be the right move.

There are many dollars spent in many ways by. the Government that could better be directed in this direction because our future lies with those students out of l1emorial University, I am quite sure, for the backbone of our Government and if.we want better Government t.l1an we have today we have to look to the university. I therefore have much pleasure in supporting the petition. ORAL QUESTIONS HR. SPEAKER: Han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. IL ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would direct a question to the Premier. It is the same question really that I directed to the hon.

Minister of Labour on Friday, and before directing the question, Sir, I want to stress the point that we are not talking about a question of guilt or innocence at this particular stage in proceedings, Sir. \o!hat we are talking about, Sir, is a matter of grave allegations of

June 27, 1978 Tape 4840 RT-2 impropriety and irregularity having been made in sworn testimony by at least two and maybe several senior civil servants, former and present, in respect of two ministers of the Crown, one happens to be the ~~inister of Labour now and one happens to be the Minister of Industrial Affairs now, but concerning these I ministers when they were ministers of Public t~orks. Now, ~r.

Speaker, what I would like to ask the Premier is, does he not think that it is a proper thing to require that these ministers be suspended at least temporarily from their positions of important public trust tintil such time as these very serious allegati.ons of impropriety and irregularity are cleared up? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: First of all, and I hope the Honse bears with me because the reply has to be lengthy because of the seriousness of the question and the so-called allegations.

The fact is, Sir, that on Friday, as I understand it, the question was asked of the Minister of Labour regarding his possible resignation due to the testimony given at the enquiry into the Department of Public Works.

I would suggest, Sir, that his reply, and I have talked to him about it and I have looked at Hansard as to ~•hat he had to ·say, I would suggest, Sir, that his reply suggested that before any resignation was talked about in this House or elsewhere that he would quite rightly confer with me regarding any such move or if such a move was even necessary, rather than to debate it in this House upon a question from the Opposition.

Sir, as far as I am concerned, .I think it is fair to say that the Hinister of Labour is not only basically a friendly and courteous person, and even though some members may not understand that, the fact is that last H~ek ~;rhen this became an issue he was in New York talking to ASARC.O about the Buchans situation upon - not instruction, but certainly·with my knowledge and others, and since that I have talked to. the Minister over the weekend regarding the testimony given at the Public Horks enquiry. Hell, Sir, at that meeting I had with 1( S I~

June 27, 1978 Tape 4840 RT-3 PREHIER HOORES : the Minister he assured me in no uncertain terms that there was no wrongdoing. Sir, I suggest at this time, what is it that we want in this Province. We. have established an enquiry to look into any potential wrongdoing in the Department of Public Works. ·Sir, possibly the mistake some people 1-i'ould say the Government made was in the establishing of the enquiry itself. But, Sir,

June 27, 1978 Tape 4841 IB-1 PREMIER HOORES: the attitude that has taken place for many, many decades in this Province and is starting to get a bit uncomfortable from the member for LaP~ile (Mr. Neary).Obviously, Sir, he i~ starting to inter~upt again. The fact is, Sir, that the attitude regarding - MR. NEARY: No, I do not like (inaudible) cover up (inaudible). 2fR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order!

PREMIER MOOREE: -political enquiries and he says, the attitude towards coverup, the reason, Sir, and the difference between this government and the one he was associated with is that we establish enquiries to find the truth and do not hide them under the bushel as was done in the past. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER MOORES: Now, Sir, I do not like the allegations in this House that people are - MR. SIMMONS: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has come up. MR.

SHIMONS: I can appreciate the Premier wants to stonewall this one but the issue he is talking about now is one we would like to debate and if we will allow the same time to this side of the House we would like to debate it. But I think, Mr. Speaker, with all respect the Premier is now way off the question. The question was whether he thought- I believe the word•though~ or 'think' was used - whether he thought the two min-isters ought to be suspended or otherwise vacate the position until th~ matter has been cleared up. It is a fairly specific question. The answer_is either yes or no with some qualification.

But this harangue, this lecture about what has gone in the past and what a great government this is and that kind ~f stuff, this obvious j(c; I~

June 27, 1978 Tape 4841 IB-2 MR. SIMMONS: attempt at st6newalling, Mr. Speaker, ·is beside the poin~; very much beside the point. And I suggest, Mr. Speaker, it is very irrelevant and he is abusing the rules of the House in a most unprecedented manner. And I think he ought to be called to task, Mr. Speaker, and asked to answer the question or sit down. That is the rules of the HoUse, Mr. Speaker. He is abusing the rules. He is very irrelevant at this point in time and he is reading from a prepared text,I gather,from this side of the House. MR. HICKHAN: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. J:!R.

SPEAKER: To the point of order. The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKHAN: When the hon. Leader of the Opposiiiori asked the question he very responsibly,and I suspect the hon. member for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) did not hear him or if he did he obviously disagrees with him, very responsibly said that this was a very serious question. and the

preamble as was again. on Friday was reasonably lengthly. When the hon. the Premier stood in response he suggested to the House that again in response to the question from the hon. Leader of the Opposition and the alleged ser~ousness of it ai put by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition that with the leave of the House he would have to. be rather lengthly in. his reply. And it is precisely and absolutely what the bon. the Premier is doing. You know,the hon. gentleman for Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir if he does not like the answer that certainly does not,I suggest,give him the right to rise on. a point of order and say because I disagree with the answer that I now want""to cutoff the answer.

June 27, 1978 Tape 4841 IB-3 HR. SPEAKER: On the point I will read and then make a brief comment upon

section 181 in Beauchesne, subsection (1).

"Questions must be answered briefly and distinctly, and be limited to the necessary explanations, though a certain latitude is permitted to Hiriisters of the Crown whenever they find it necessary to extend their remarks with the view of clearly explaining the matter in questio~" Obviously there is a quite subjective element there, "though a certain latitude is permitted to Ministers of the Crown whenever they find it necessary to extend their remarks with a view of clearly explaining the matter in question." I will point out of course that debate as such is not permitted in the answers· or in the questions.

Having pointed that out,the question of length is obviously relative and the more important or delicate the matter the more it is capable of perhaps misunderstanding then I suppose to a certain extent the more aperative this part becomes and that is that a minister may find it necessary to extend their remarks with a view of clearly explaining same. So with reference to that - but I do emphize that debate during the question period is out of order. The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, possibly, Sir, if I could be heard tn silence I might be briefer than I was obviously being in the last part of the reply. The fact is, Sir, that the enquiry was appointed because of

June 27, 1973 .n: - • all3gations tl1at v.·ere mad.a, :lOt just against: any ministers of the crmm but rather against co:1tractors, against people in the department, of possible ~Vrongdoings in the 11hole structure.

For that reason, Sir, ;.;e appointed a public enquiry for the public to know what <,;as happening and to get all the evidence before an impartial body to make a decision. c:o1v, Sir, I do not think anyone in this House,even though it s·eems so on occasion~wants people to be guilty until proven innocent and that seems to be the case not only 1dth individuals but also ,I would suggest, Sir, with people outside. I think it is wrong to associate guilt with someone until that is proven. In other words,someone is guilty until proven innocent in the political arena today.

I suggest, Sir, that members of the Opposition know what I am talking about as well as people on this side of the House that by innuendo, by bringing up embarrassing political so-called "questions" you are watching families being affected. whether -'you like it or not it happens to be true .., :-m. NEARY: (Inaudible) the former Premier (Inaudible) • MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! PREl1IER l-!OORES: Hr. Speaker, the member for LaPoile seems to be very sensitive in this area but that is his problem and not ours.

I would suggest, Sir, that the fact is that families are affected by this sort of innuendo, that it is a political smear because, Sir, the enquiry has been set up to find out the truth. The fact is that when the enquiry report is in anyone who is guilty will pay the full consequences whether they be civil servants, contractors or members of this government. That has been stated very clearly. Now, Sir, it may not be understandable to some of the members on the other side but the fact is - AN HON. ME~IBER: Watch your blood pressure.

PREl1IER MOORES: I am watching my blood pressure and I suggest, Sir, the member will have - No, I will not say that, Sir. But the fact is that it is only after a member or a person or anybody is proven guilty will this government act, not when their enquiry is going on to find out

June 27, 1978 Tape No. 4342 J:·I - 2 PRDUER MOORES :. the facts, to find out what is happening. Haybe, Sir, the Opposition would·like people to be guilty before the evidence is in and I suggest, Sir, that that is the wrong approach. ,\ny scandal, Sir, ( if any, that take place in this Province whether they be the member for LaPoile, members on the governnient side, the Leader of the Opposition, whomever they maybe the fact is, Sir, that if there are any scandals - 'IR. NEARY: A point of order, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR.

NEARY: Sir, to the hon. gentleman there are no scandals involving the member for LaPoile, no scandals at all and if the hen. gentleman wishes to put up evidence to prove othel:'vise let him do it. Never mind his smear tactics and his character assassination that he has been carrying on in this House for the past several months, the king of the smear tactic in this House. 11R. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must point out that .this particular matter is not one on which the Chair has any ruling. If the hen. Premier has not completed,I would express the requirement that he bring his .answer to a conclusion.

PPF.1IER ~100RES: Yes, Sir, I will and the example I just gave is a hypothetical one of anybody in this House or outside - '1P .• NEARY: (Inaudible) • PP-EHIER MOORES: - who are involved and if you read the Hansard you will find exactly uhat I said. I said any members on the government side,even the member for LaPoile if I may go to that degree, Slr. But the fact is, Sir, that - !!R. ::rEA'W: The hon. gentleman is up to his eyeballs in scandal, up to his eyeballs. i·!R. SPEAKER : PRE:liER ~!CORES: :·!R. NEARY: i!R. SPEAKER: P~HE:t l!OOilES: Order, plaase! W:1.o is? The hon. Premier. Orc!er, please!

Sir, I ask that the hen. member ·~ithdraw that remark.

June 27, 1978 Tape No. 4842 J:f - 3 :m. SPEAKER: Order, please! TI1e non. gentleman to my left is within his right to require the withdrawal of the allegation of the hon. gentleman to my right and I ask him to withdraw it. lffi. NEARY: Of course, Sir, and I hope the hon. the Premier, Sir, will. be asked to withdraw his statement he made - }1R. W.N. ROWE:' ~- NEARY: MR.. SPEAI'...ER: HR. NEARY: :··!R. SPEAKER: The same statement as he made. His same statement and· apologize. Order, please! You cannot say through the back door, Si~, what you - Order, please! Order, please!

Any time any hon. member on either side has a point of order to make will they please inform me - l·!R. NEARY : I made - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Chair is speaking or at least the person in it and the rules are applied to an equal degree and in an equal manner both to the right and to the left. If there was any allegation made by an hon. gentleman to my left with r~spect to an l1on. member to my right, a direct allegation or an innuendo,because one cannot say indirectly what one ca~ot say directly then obviously the matter has to be drawn to my attention. Frequently when - MR. NEARY: !·!R. SPEAKER: I did.

If the hon. member will please permit! Not permit - you know,I do have the right and the House does have the right to require no interruptions .• the On a point of order then certainly the rule is

June 27, 1978 Tape 4843 RT-1 MR. SPEAKER: same irrespective of which side it is on. With respect to the previous point of order some minutes ago,it was not my understanding at the time that there was an allegation,even an indirect allegation on the part of the hon. gentleman to my left, an allegation of scandal on the part of anybody to my right. That was not my understanding thereof and that was the reason I ruled as I then did.

There is no more on that that I can say,but I do wish to repeat that suggestions that the ruling is in any way affected or influenced by which side it originates on that that is inaccurate and hon. members often~perhaps in the heat of debate~may say things but I think that is something that they really should avoid. The hon. Premier has completed his answer? PREMIER.MOORES: Has there been a withdrawal? MR.SPEAKER: I had thought the hon. gentleman had but I may have been mistaken. Now if the hon. gentleman has not withdrawn, then I ask him to withdraw. HR. S. NEARY: Oh, I withdraw, Mr. Speaker.

I was provoked into it, Sir, and if the hon. gentleman keeps it up he will get ten times back for every one thing that he fires across this House. He will get ten back in spades including the ring. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!. I must point out to hon. members that differences of opinion can be very, very sharp and very precise but during the Question Period I really cannot allow, and I do not see how the House can properly function,if members are to shout back and forth at one another and suggest if you say this I will bring this up and that kind of suggestion. t'll_.

S • NEARY: It started over there. 'ffi. SPEAKER : Order, please! I am not writing a history of it. Where it starts or not is not my responsibility in that sense in documenting where matters start but what I am endeavouring to ao - r·!it. NEARY: (Inaudible) right directly to (inaudible).

June 27, 1978 Tape 4843 RT-2 MR • SPEAKER : Order, please! Order, please! lfuat I am endeavouring to do is to provide a forum in which the House can progress and in which' the rules can have the, at ~east, minimal acceptance which is,in my opinion at least,absolutely necessary for· the Rouse of Assembly. If the hon. Premier has not completed his answer,I would again repeat the stricture I made earlier and that is to require him to bring it to an end very soon. PREMIER IIOORES: Right, Sir, I will.

The fact is, Sir, what the essence of the question and the reply is that when the enquiry has made its findings' that is what should be acted upon by the Government · and not any allegations or testimony until such findings have been made. HR. W. ROWE: Supplementary, Hr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: MR. W. ROWE: Supplementary, hon. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Speaker, by way of a pr.eliudna'ey to the supplementary question is to. say that I find the Premier's. answer totally incredible., Sir. 1-Ihy was it not delivered by way of a ministerial statement, Hr. Speaker? He' had a prepared text there - MR. S.

NEARY: A Gary Callahan special. HR. W. ROWE: using the Question Period like this. Mr. Speaker, let me emphasize by way of a preliminary, it is not a matter of guilt, Sir, and if families happen to be dragged in because they happen to be related to a Minfger of the Crown then we are all very sorry about that,but ministers have a public trust to uphold and cannot be thought to be influence-·peddling or breach of that public trust. Now, Hr.

Speaker, I would ask the Premier - I would assume that the Premier has said, "No", but I want clarification of it. l~ould he not agree, Sir, that if the lowliest clerk in the Government was implicated by an enquiry and that clerk had some responsib:Uity over public funds in any way, shape or form, Sir, would he not agree that that public servant would be suspended, would be suspended not because he is guilty or ·innocent, or because he has been proved to be guilty and has to go to jail, Sir, but because his integrity '

June 27, 1978 Tape 4843 RT-3 MR. W. ROWE: has been brought into question by sworn testimony,in this particular case of high-ranking, responsible civil servants, Mr.· Speaker, and it is for that reason that that clerk in the Civil Service would be required to be suspended until the matter has been cleared up and settled one way or the other.

And would he not agree that if that rule applies to the lowliest clerk in the Government, Sir, then it should apply one hundredfold to a l-linister of the Crown who has the greatest public trust of any possible public servant,in this case an elected official of the Crown; would he not agree, Sir, that the rule regarding suspensions which would apply to a public servant should apply at least one hundred times as greatly in respect of a Minister of the Crown who has the greatest of public trust to uphold in this House? HR. SPEAKER: Ron. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, in that regard I believe and I believe very sincerely that taking a person at his word, and the ministers and people involved in this particular .situation are prepared and ~•ill give testimony, I think it is critically important that people are not guilty by association before the actual facts and the judgement I has been made in this case by Justice Hahoney. I think, Sir, it is no more wrong in this case - as a matter of fact, probably less so,at least in my opinion - than when the Bell Island enquiry was going on the member for LaPoile (Ifr.

Neary) did not resign in between nor was he suspended from anything. ~. s. NEARY: I "'as not a minister. 1-!.R. w. ROWE: And there were no allegations. ~. s. NEARY: Point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point. of order has come up. ~1R. s. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we cannot allow that to stand on the public records. I was not a minister. II S '1-- -1---

June 27, 1978, Tape 4844, Page·l -- apb MR. NEARY: There were no allegations or charges made against me, I did not break the law in any way, shape or form and if I did the Minister of Justice would have laid charges against me long ago. That is a smear tactic, a typical example of the type of character assassination that we are getting from the Premier. It is a weak defence. ) MR,. W.N .ROWE: It is a different situation involved.· MR. NEARY: It is a completely different situation.

The Premier can put up all the srno~e screens he wants, but all he is trying to do is smear, cover-up, weasle his way out of a situation where the dragnet is closing around him and he knows that he is in trouble. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN:· Mr. Speaker, this is not a point of order. The hon. member does not wait until the hon. the Premier finishes his sentence. MR. W.N.ROWE: He wrote it for him. He knows what he is going to say. MR. HICKMAN: What I do know is what the hon. the Premier did not say. The hon. the Premier - MR ..

NEARY: (Inaudible) my credibility - PREMIER MOORES : Listen~ Listen! Listen! MR. NEARY: I will tell you that right now. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ Order, please~ Order, please! The hon. Minister of Justice continue. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) before the year is over. PREMIER MOORES: That is only to stop me from going for you. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ I leave the Chair for fifteen minutes. II S 1-3

June 27, 1978, Tape 4844, Page 2 -- apb MR. HICKMAN: Period for today. MR. SPEAKER: ) That is the end of Question I adjourn for fifteen -minutes. I cannot really see how I can preside with the kind o:e language that is going back and forth.

June 27, 1978, Tape 4845, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There was a point of ord~r before the Chair which had not been disposed of before I adjourned. The point of order is not one which the Chair can make any ruling on, not like a point or order in the technical parliamentary sense, difference of opinion or a matter of if different members havedifferent views that can be debated under relevant motions but not a matter for the Chair's jurisdic.tion. Previous to that the han. the Premier was giving an answer to a question.

Before recognizing him, if he has not concluded his answer, I would point out to han, members on both sides what I regard as the absolute need for han. members to co-operate with the Chair in the maintenance of the rules. I have said it before, I will say it again, I know of no other way of putting it, and that is there are fifty-one of us here and one, just by being in this particular seat cannot unaided keep the order and decorum of the House. It requires participation and co-operation of han. members on both sides collectively.

Having said that, two futher things: Number one, the answers by the han. the Premier certainly did get into the area of debate and I think that is a factor to be borne in mind; and the interjections of han. gentlemen to my right were quite out of order and quite improper and if han. members on both sides will endeavour to restrain their emotions and think what they wish but say only what is permitted to be · said,then I would think the entire House would benefit therefrom. The han. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: No, I have finished the reply, Mr. Speaker.

June 27, 1978, Tape 4845, Page 2 -- apb MR. SIMMONS: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. The hon. the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker·, on the same subject a question for the Minister of Labour and Manpower whom I think we can depend on not to be so tender as the Premier on this subject. What surprises me most of all, I say to the minister as a

preamble,is that th.is line of questioning of the past few minutes has even become necessary. There are all kinds of precedents, Mr. Speaker. The principal of the Vocational School in Burin,Mr. Thee Etchegary, a man who was the subject of a number of allegations, was suspended from his position until such time as he was cleared, and let the record show that he was cleared, Mr. Speaker, and has since been appointed to a federal appointment in the last two or three weeks. So there is no shortage or precedents for what our questions are implying today, Mr. Speaker.

Now we fully expected the lecture on guilt and innocence and the stonewall approach but that is not what I am asking the.Minister of Labour and Manpower, What I am asking him, Mr. Speaker, is whether or not he does not feel the need to vacate the position? It is a position of public trust and I would think he is having very real difficulty performing that position now given the public nature of the allegations against him. Could I ask the minister, Mr.

Speaker, whether he has given thought to the matter of resigning or being asked to be relieved of his responsibilities in Cabinet until such time as this matter has been cleared up? MR. SPEAKER: .The hon.the Minister of Labour and Manpower.

Tape i~o. 4846 Ah-1 June 27,1978 1!R.ROUSSEAU: first of all, rfr. Speaker, I guess there are fifty- one of us in the House and fifty heard a lot of things,but I heard a lot of thi1•:;s all weekend too and I am very happy with the things I have heard from people. I think the Premier put the position quite clearly and until I am proven guilty of something, proven guilty of something then I will resign my position. Until I am proven guilty of something it is not my intention ~o do so,as the Premier suggested. SOHE HON. MEI1BERS: HR. SIHHONS: HR. SPEAKER: Burgeo-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIHHONS: Hear, hear: A supplementary.

A supplementary, the han. member for Now they are all part of the stonewall approach over there, Mr~ Speaker, they all applaud that kind of thing. We are not talking, Mr. Speaker- let me say once again to a fairly intelligent member on that side of the House, the Minister of Labour­ we are not talking about guilt or innocence, and I point .again to the Etchegary example I am talking about his ability to perform in his position now. I am not talking about whether he will be vindicated. I ho~e as a friend of his that he will be vindicated; that is not the issue, Mr. Speaker, far from the issue.

The issue is whether he can now, in a position of public trust, whether he can perform adequately his assignment as a Minister of the Crown in view of the public nature of the .allegations, due to the fact that he bas to work with a number o.f people on his staff and in view of the fact that he requires public trust to carry out these responsibilities. ·Anci I ask the minister, not relating to guilt or innocence, that is not the issue, Mr.Speal~r. I ask him whether he feels that he can now just as adequately perform in his role as he could have without the presence of these public allegations? l'!R.

SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR. ROUSSEAU: Hr. Speaker, that is a hypothetical question and I do not know. I know that within the last hour or so that I had a talk, an non-official one,obviously,with one of the heads of one of the largest labour unions in the Province and the first question

June 27,1978 Tape No. 4846 AH-2 i·lR. ROUSSEAU: he asked me was, "'lou are not resigning ,are you?" and I said,"No" and he said "Good': so until somebody proves that I cannot occupy my position as Minister of Labour without public trust then obviously the Premier is going to have to take some steps. Right now we do not know that. r.•at is a hypothetical question. MR. WHITE: NR, SPEAKER: HR. WHITE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member for Lewisporte. Mr.

Speaker, the ttinister of l1anpower has not been back in the House since - not for any length of time ,only on Friday when a couple of questions were asked him with respect to the enquiry that is now under way,and presedents,will show that although enquiries are under way questions can be asked in the House with respect to them. I would like to ask the Minister of Hanpower and Industrial Relations, Hr. Speaker, whether or not when he did give orders that contracts should go to various people or various contractors in St.

John's, whether or not he gave specific orders to his officials with the knowledge of other ministers or with the Premier's knowledge ? Who knew when the minister was giving those oraers wno the contract should go to? Who knew about this beside himself or did he ao it on his own? HR. SPEAKER: Tl1e hon. minister. HR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated in the House on Friday~ it was my intention to appear before the enquiry and I will give those answers at that time. HR. NEARY: NR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. Hr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman should be aware that this is the highest court in the land, that any answers to questions should be given to this parliament, to the legislature. The members of the House come first, come before anything else. This public enquiry is appointed by this House, by the !dinister of Justice,and the minister should answer to this House. What we are asking is if the minister was acting when he said "Leave it to me", if the minister was acting under instructions from the Premier or if he had consultation with any other

June 27,1978 bllt, . NEARY : Tape No, 4846 AH-3 ministers in tile government in connection with these alleged crimes that have been committed? Was ti1e minister acting under instructions from the Premier of this Province or from any of his colleagues? ill\, SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR. ROUSSEAU: Hr. Speaker, as I indicated on Friday,again it is not my intention to answer anything in piecemeal.

I will stand before the enquiry, sit before the enquiry as long as the enquiry wants me to, I will give the answers aa I recall them because some of the things that I have been reading in the newspapers are •:.ot my way of recalling certain conversations that are alleged. So I will do that when the time comes at the enquiry but not in piecemeal fashion; I will do it the whole way. HR. WHITE: a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. }ffi, SPEAKER: A supplententary, the hon. member for Lewisporte and then I will recognize the hon. member for St. John's West. HR. WHITE: l1r.

Speaker, my supplementary is to the Minister of Hanpower and E:dustrial Relations. It is giving him an opportunity to clarify himself with respect to a previous statement that he made in the House and that was on Narch 10, 1977,

June 27, 1978· Tape 484 7 IB-1 MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I think if the minister would check his files and come up with the March 10, 1977 statement when he said that everything was fine and dandy in the Department of Public Works, that there were no problems at ~11, that no specific instructions had been issued for contracts to go to anyone. He stood up in the House and said that. Now we have his deputy minister at the time making a completely different statement. Mr. Speaker, should we not hear about this?

And I ask the minister, a senior official, is he going to let all this just go by wi~h the House expected to close in a week or so? Is he not going to tell the House? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. HR. ROUSSEAU: No. Obviously I am not going to let it go by, Mr. Speaker, nor am I going to answer it in piecemeal fashion. I will answer it before the commission that was set up by this government and I will answer as long as the commission wants to stand there and question me. I am prepared to'. so do. And that is the position I have taken. That is the position I am going to live or die with. MR. W. ROW~: Mr.

Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. w. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, the minister should realize, Sir, that he is reponsible to this House as~ member of the ministry, as a member of the government. He is responsible to this House. He should not treat the House with contempt, Mr. Speaker. Now, I will ask the minister this: Is the minister going to make a Ministerial Statement in the next day or wo or as quickly as possible once he recollects his thoughts and looks back over the record and II\ 3 o

June 27, 1978 Tape 4847 IB-2 HR. W. ROl~E: so on in order to let this House know whether in fact the allegations which were made against him and his colleague or concerning him and his colleague at the public enquiry, Sir, were they true or were they false ·as far as he is concerned, Sir?

He is a minister of this government responsible to this House, Sir, and it is very important that we, as members of this House and through ~s. the public, know whether the minister's position is that these statements made by the officials are wrong or whether they are correct,because if they are correct, Sir, th•n I would ~ubmit that we are going beyond mere ministerial responsibility. We are gone into another sphere altogether. I will ask the minister more for his own good than anyone else's is he going to make a Ministerial Statement fully clarifying his position to this hon. House, Mr.

Speaker, on this ve~y serious matter. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. MR. ROUSSEAU: The minister has said, Mr. Speaker, for the sixth or seventh time, in two sitting sessions the minister intends to appear before the enquiry and the minister intends to speak his piece at the enquiry. The enquiry is set up for that. I think it would be presumptuous, inappropriate and discourteous to the enquiry to speak in the House on an isolated question until the enquiry and the commission and the commissioner have the opportunity to put whatever questions he deems necessary and appropriate. 1 { s 31

June 27, 1978 Tape 4847 IB-3 ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. SPEAKER: Order 7, the adjourned debate on Bill no. 50 adjourned by the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans (Hr. Flight). HR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, when the debate ended in the last sitting I had,I think,ten or twelve minutes left to speak. AN HON. MEMBER: Fifteen. HR. FLIGHT: Fifteen. I intend to clue up very quickly, Sir. I want to reiterate what I said before. The regional governm•nt is not the most important issue in this House as far as I am concerned. It is incidental in a way to my constituency.

One day Central Newfoundland may indeed look at regional government but I would assure the minister that he will have more opposition to regional government in Cantral Newfoundland if regional government is attempted to be brought around with this kind of a bill. Mr. Speaker, every speaker that has spoken in this debate up to now has indeed supported the concept of regional government. Every member who spoke on the other side of the House supported bill 50. Let me say now, Sir, that regional governent and bill 50 have got nothing in common. Regional government and bill SO are two entirely different things, Sir.

Bill 50 is not consistent with the way that regional government should be implemented. There are clauses in bi~l SO that would frighten an ordinary citizen away from regional government. The member for St. John's West Mr. Speaker, said bill 50 was conceived in sin. Well maybe it was con~eived in sin, Sir, but it will be accepted and reared and nurtured with distrust and suspicion. It is a bill, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Municipal ll s 3 1..----

June 27, 1978 Tape 4847 IB-4 MR. FLIGHT: Affairs is bulldozing through this House, a bill which will create a regional government, a bill that had no input at all from the people to whom that regional government will most apply. It was opposed by most of the. elected councils, the city ~f St. John's, all the elected to*n councils except now this past couple of days we hear of a council or two that are going along with it. And I would suspect.that the minister has had some hurried meetings with so~e of these councils and has probably bulldozed them into accepting regional government or talked them one way or another into relaxing their stand a little. liS 3 ~

June 27, 1978 Tape 4848 IB-1 !:fR. FLIGHT: Only one has come out totally in support of regional government and another has given 9ualified support. Mr. Speaker, if the minister was smart, Sir, he would re~lize that'his bill is off to a bad start. It has got a strike against it, Mr. Speaker: Regional government will only succeed if the parties involved are prepared to co-operate, the councils of the towns involved. And, Mr.

Speaker, w~th the kind of opposition that we have seen to this bill obviously the minister. cannot expect very much co-operation from the various towns, municipalities, that will be under the umbrella of regional government. As a matter of fact the opposition may manifest itself .into non co-operation in total non co-operation with the regional government.

I would not be surprised looking at the kind of opposition we have seen in this House and the kind of. opposition we have seen coming from all the towns and the ·people that will be involved in regional government, I would not be surprised if the minister might have a difficult time naming, appointing or getting elected a regional council. They will know what to expect. They will know they are not wanted.

They will know that the private citizens of the area that they are expected to govern used every means at their disposal to oppose bill 50, asked to have the bill tabled, deferred until they could have some input. And no, Sir, the minister will not relent. He is going to push this bill. through and in pushing it through if indeed he succeeds he may be setting himself into a position where he may not be able.to find people. I do not know why anybody would want. to serve on a regional board knowing that the people H 53 f

June 27 • 1978 Tape 4848 IB-2 MR. FLIGHT: they are about to serve did not want them. And that has been made very clear in the Northeast Avalon this past two weeks • that the people of the North·east Avalon · and their representatives are not happy and not content with reg~onal government as is proposed to be implemented in bill 50.

And the minister may if he does succeed in bulldozing it through, if he does succeed in ramrodding it through and he intend~ to insist and push it through without any consideration for the requests of the people most aff1ected he may find himself with a can of worms on his hands in the serise that the people involved will not accept regional government by the way it has been legislated onto them. And, Mr. Speaker, I would think that is a fairly healthy concern for the minister. So, Mr. Speaker, I will windup my remarks by simply saying that bill 50 is not consistent with ones idea of good democratic government.

Bill 50, the clauses in bill 50 are not consistent with the way that regional government should be implemented. There is no way that the people of an area should be deprived, particularly in this case. If the minister was not aware of the opposition, if the people concerned had had no way of getting to the minister and letting him know they were opposed to the bill, then I could understand the minister going ahead and shoving a bill through. But he has had two weeks of total opposition to this bill from every community in the Northeast Avalon and he still insists come hell or high water it is going through.

They are going to have it whether they like it or not. Well in most cases they will not like it. And, Mr. Speaker, as I say that kind of legislation, that kind of tactic is not consistent with what one would expect .;-.

June 27, 197'8 Tape 4848 ~!R. FLIGHT: of good, democratic government. And, Mr.Speaker, I cannnot, Sir, support and wili not support bill 50 in the state as it is presented to the House under the legislation as we have it. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for St. John's South. DR. J .. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support bill 50, the bill dealing with regional government in. the Northeast Avalon area. And I do not think anyone has c9mmented to date on the change in the name or perhaps if they have I missed it. I think the previous bill was called the regional government for the St. John's area

whereas· it was thought more appropriate in reviewing the bill over the past year to call it the regional government for the Northeast Avalon. I think that this is certainly acceptable to all peoples in this area. At least I have never heard any comment to the contrary. Mr. Speaker, this seems to be a very strange debate. At least one would have expected it to have gone a different way. I have never really seen a bill get quite the buildup that this one did if one would

June 27, 1978 Tape No. 4849 J}t- 1 DR. COLLINS: go by what was written in the papers, what people were quoted as saying, what the hon. members opposite