Social Services Committee

2020-10-20

Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees

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October 20, 2020

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Steve Crocker, MHA for Carbonear - Trinity - Bay

de Verde, substitutes for Sherry Gambin-Walsh, MHA for Placentia - St. Mary's.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, Paul Dinn, MHA for Topsail - Paradise,

substitutes for Helen Conway Ottenheimer, MHA for Harbour Main.

Pursuant to Standing Order 68, John Haggie, MHA for Gander, substitutes for

Christopher Mitchelmore, MHA for St. Barbe - L'Anse aux Meadows.

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Assembly Chamber.

CHAIR (Trimper):

(Inaudible) everybody back to this Estimates of Education. It's part two. We're

continuing on from where we've left off. We'll think of this as a recess and

we're back and continuing.

We're going to forgo any kind of opening remarks, any kind of introductions. I

would ask the Clerk to remind us all where we are in these Estimates. What we're

going to do is work through them. We have 60 minutes and, unfortunately, that is

it. That is all the time we will have.

I would ask people to keep your remarks brief, concise and let's make sure that

we have an opportunity to look at everything that everyone wants to see in here

and that the department has an opportunity to explain.

With that, Madam Clerk, I'll ask you to remind us where we are and we'll get

started.

CLERK (Russell):

3.1.01 to 3.6.01 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

We'll continue on with the questions in this

section only, please. We won't be

voting on each section. I'll wait until we've concluded and then we'll vote on

the whole entire Estimates of this department.

I'll turn it now to Mr. Pardy.

MR. PARDY:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I can't really recall if I have any further questions in that section, because I

think I was ready to proceed on to the Post-Secondary.

CHAIR:

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Dinn – either Dinn.

MR. P. DINN:

No questions.

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Okay.

Mr. James Dinn.

MR. J. DINN:

I think we're good and we'll go to Post-Secondary.

CHAIR:

All right. Thank you very much.

We'll move on to the next

section then, please. I'll ask the Clerk to introduce

that.

CLERK:

4.1.01 to 4.4.02 inclusive.

CHAIR:

Okay. Mr. Pardy.

MR. PARDY:

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4.1.01, I'm assuming this pertains to the ABE program. Can we have the enrolment

for the public versus the private?

CHAIR:

Keep your hand up.

Can the Broadcast spot the – just keep you hand up, Candice. There you go.

They'll spot you.

Does Broadcast see the lady with the hand in the air? Assistant Deputy Minister.

There it is. There you go.

MS. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

Good morning.

For 2019-20, our PTIs registered 1,669 ABE students and our community-based

organization registered 108, for a total of 1,777. So 94 per cent were in the

PTIs, the private training institutions.

MR. PARDY:

Okay, good.

How many College of the North Atlantic campuses do we have in the province?

MS. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

We have 17 campuses.

MR. PARDY:

Seventeen campuses.

I don't need to know what the enrolment is, but I'm sure there's quite a

variation in those. Can you just give me what the spectrum would be from lowest

to highest?

MS. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

Sure. The September 24, 2020, enrolment for the College of the North Atlantic's

17 campuses was a total of 5,814 students, and the range was from 23 to the high

of 1,012.

MR. PARDY:

Okay.

I'm assuming the 1,012 is Prince Philip?

MS. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

Actually, my mistake. 1,012 was Distributed Learning. The total highest was

1,810, and that was Prince Philip Drive, so 1,810 students at Prince Philip

Drive.

MR. PARDY:

Okay.

I'm fully aware of the 27 pay periods, but when I look at the Salaries in

4.1.01, the actuals were considerably more than budgeted last year.

MR. GARDINER:

That actually is Salaries for the post-secondary review that's under way, so

money transferred in to pay for the salaries for the people completing the

post-secondary review.

MR. PARDY:

Okay.

Bob, am I to assume that this year's Salaries budgeted higher is basically due

to the 27th pay period?

MR. GARDINER:

Yes.

MR. PARDY:

Okay.

Transportation and Communications.

MR. GARDINER:

The same answer, Craig. It's money that came over to the department from Finance

to cover off the post-secondary review.

You'll find the same thing for Professional Services and Purchased Services.

That's where the money the came in. There was nothing budgeted there but because

of the post-secondary review, the money was supplied by Finance. It was budgeted

in Finance and transferred to the department.

MR. PARDY:

Good.

Moving on to 4.1.02. I think it might have been referenced last year, that we

had three seats in the veterinary school.

MR. GARDINER:

Three seats per year with a four-year program for a total of 12 seats.

MR. PARDY:

Does that satisfy our needs in the province for veterinarians?

MR. GARDINER:

I'll defer to Candice. Typically it had, but I haven't been involved in it in

the past four years.

MS. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

My response to that would be at current time it does. We have not had any

significant inquires that have come into the department to indicate otherwise.

MR. PARDY:

Okay.

On the Grants and Subsidies – I'm sorry to bounce back to the first

section

again. 4.1.01, on the Grants and Subsidies, you spent significantly less in that

last year.

MR. GARDINER:

Craig, basically that money is primarily budgeted for ABE, but when students

sign up for ABE, in many cases they're federally funded through the Labour

Market Development Agreement, the LMDA. If they're not eligible for that, then

they're paid for out of provincial funding. Every year there's a balance between

how many LMDA are funded and how many are provincially funded. In this case,

there were more LMDA clients than there were provincial clients.

MR. PARDY:

Okay, good.

4.2.01, on the Operations, when we look at the Regular Operating Grant, we spent

about $10,000 more last year. That's on the Grants and Subsidies.

MR. GARDINER:

You're looking at MUN's operating grant?

MR. PARDY:

MUN's, yes.

MR. GARDINER:

When you're looking at MUN's operating grant, obviously you need to look at both

the Regular Operating Grant and the Tuition Offset because it's all revenue that

goes to Memorial. If you look at the total amount, the $309,354,000 versus the

$309,059,000, how you arrive at those numbers – the difference in '19-'20,

'20-'21 – like all the ABC's and departments, MUN in this case is responsible

for $1.6-million savings for an attrition management plan and $694,000 reduction

in normal operating grant. That then is offset by the additional $4 million for

the tuition freeze, which is all part of the operating grant.

Also this year, severance was paid out for Memorial because of the collective

agreement stipulations. So government actually paid the severance, which

normally Memorial would've done, and then Memorial is paying back to government

over the next five years $2 million a year. Instead of Memorial taking the hit

in one year, it's spread out over five. That also is reflected, a $2-million

decrease, which is normal money that Memorial would be spending anyway on

Now you're coming into –

MR. PARDY:

MR. GARDINER:

The Physical Plant and Equipment would simply be $2.4 million for deferred

maintenance as White Paper money and then any construction infrastructure

projects that have been happening, like the Core Science Facility and the

Holyrood Marine Base. The Battery wouldn't be down there now, because that's

finished. There would've been money down there a number of budgets ago for the

Battery financing.

MR. PARDY:

Assuming there's a mortgage on the Battery, do we know what the amount of the

mortgage would be on the Battery owing?

MS. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

No.

MR. GARDINER:

That's something, Craig, I'd have to get for you.

MR. PARDY:

Okay.

Is the operation there of that Battery self-sufficient?

MR. GARDINER:

Candice can speak to that, but I know four years ago when they bought the

Battery and redeveloped it, the plan then was that it was self-sufficient and

actually it was a bit of a revenue generator.

MS. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

(Inaudible.)

MR. GARDINER:

Yes.

MR. PARDY:

I know on the Premier's mandate letter it had asked to improve the public

post-secondary infrastructure. I'm just wondering: Is there anything in this

budget that would be addressing that mandate at this point in time? I know that

everyone is concerned about the aging infrastructure at MUN, and just I don't

see it here anywhere.

MS. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

I guess, more generally, certainly there is funding related to the Holyrood

Marine Base new main building, $10.5 million. Certainly, we're sunsetting toward

the end of the Strategic Infrastructure Fund program, through the Animal

Resource Centre and the Core Science Facility. I guess the main thrust of

funding in this particular budget would be the Holyrood Marine Base new base

building.

MR. PARDY:

Thank you.

CHAIR:

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Dinn.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

In 4.2.01, you may have just answered this, but it appears the ministry has

shifted $4 million from the Regular Operating Grant in the previous budget to

the Tuition Offset Grant in this one. Why was this done?

MR. GARDINER:

Jim, if I understand your question correctly, there was no money shifted from

the Regular Operating Grant. The decrease in the Regular Operating Grant would

be reflected in the $1.6-million attrition and the $694,000 operational savings,

as well as the $2-million severance that I just explained. The $4 million in the

Tuition Offset would be new money. That was started to be reported like that

probably five years ago.

So the $64.4 million last year was for Tuition Offset, and government has made a

commitment to provide Memorial with $4 million – that's the figure that's been

used now for probably seven or eight years – to maintain the tuition freeze.

That $4 million is an actual increase for the Tuition Offset.

MR. J. DINN:

In 4.2.02, the Battery Hotel, do these generate income for the university at

all?

MR. GARDINER:

The Battery would, based on the rental that they have for some of the space they

have down there, and the Genesis Centre, et cetera. Of course, they have some

graduate residences there as well. When that was bought and refurbished, the

plan was, and still continues to be, that it would be actually a revenue

generator and it wouldn't cost Memorial any money.

MR. J. DINN:

Do we have any breakdown of the revenue that it has generated since it's been up

and running?

MR. GARDINER:

We can get that for you, Jim.

MR. J. DINN:

Please, yes. That would be great.

In 4.2.02, the minister's mandate letter mentions the need to improve public

post-secondary infrastructure, yet here we see that over a third of allocated

funds were not invested in Physical Plant and Equipment at MUN. Even more, we

see additional decrease of $10 million in this year's budget compared to what

was actually spent in 2019-2020. Would the minister name which projects were

affected by the lack of funding and how? Were there cost savings, project delays

or cancellations, et cetera?

MR. GARDINER:

The short answer to that, Jim, is no, there's no project inadvertently affected.

The money that you see that was not spent this year was money primarily for the

Core Science Facility that was carried over to this fiscal year. It's just a

matter of flowing the money when it's necessary. There's been no decrease in the

amount allocated for those projects.

MR. J. DINN:

And with the Core Science Facility, I know before the construction of the new

mental health facility, when they were looking at doing, I guess, the flood

mitigation. There was a concern at the time that those on the hospital side that

they could potentially flood the Core Science Facility. This was even before the

construction really of the new mental health facility. This is when they were

doing a review of the berms or the walls that were built near the bridge there.

I'm just wondering what measures have been put in place or is there a cost now

added to the Core Science Facility to try to make sure that that asset, that

building is not the recipient of unwanted water?

MR. OSBORNE:

I believe that's a question better directed to Transportation and

Infrastructure. They would manage that project.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

Has the Core Science building – have they even turned their attention to this? I

know that the director, at the time, was concerned, didn't realize that that was

going to happen. This is about three or four years ago.

How much money has been spent on the Core Science building?

MR. GARDINER:

The total price tag for the Core Science building was always $325 million.

MR. J. DINN:

Significant investment.

MR. GARDINER:

Absolutely.

MR. J. DINN:

Significant investments have water come through it as well.

I would certainly appreciate that and I'll certainly ask Transportation and

Infrastructure, but still ...

Would TI be responsible for that or would MUN be responsible for that, doing an

assessment of what, if any, risk it poses? I'm just trying to get an idea

because I would assume TI is dealing with the construction above and the

mitigation measures, but on the building itself, on the Core Science building.

MR. GARDINER:

MUN is managing the construction of the Core Science Facility. Any implications

from the mental health facility and any water issues would be handled by TI.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, thank you.

In 4.2.02, could the minister provide information on the source of federal

revenue and are these grants or loans to be repaid?

MR. GARDINER:

All the money you see there would be federal money. In some cases, like the Core

Science Facility, it's not reflected in this document, but it is a loan that MUN

would be repaying and have plans in place to repay over 25 years.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

In 4.3.01, we noticed a significant drop in Grants and Subsidies allocated to

capital construction at the College of the North Atlantic this year. What was

this money invested in over 2019-2020 and why have the projected investment

Oh, my mistake.

Okay, carry on. We'll deal with 4.3.02 then, Physical Plant and Equipment.

You're right. Different heading, wrong number.

There was a significant drop in Grants and Subsidies allocated to capital

construction, what was this money invested in over 2019-2020 and why has the

projected investment amount declined so substantially?

MR. GARDINER:

The short answer to that, Jim, is the projects that have been funded through the

Strategic Infrastructure Fund are concluding. For example, the Heavy Equipment

Centre of Excellence in Stephenville is concluding, so those types of programs

are coming to an end. So as the construction completes, obviously the funding is

no longer – well, the funding is spent.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay.

Also, I'll point out in that same

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Mr. Pardy.

MR. PARDY:

Yes, back to 4.2.01, the new science building, have we costed what the

maintenance going forward will cost on this infrastructure to MUN? I know it's

new. I'm just wondering what the projected cost of maintenance would be.

MR. GARDINER:

I don't have that in front of me, Craig. It's something that we could probably

get. But I would suggest it would be offset by, for example, the Science

Building not being used and the plans for that. That has been factored into

MUN's ongoing costs, but I don't have anything in front of me right here.

MR. PARDY:

You're talking about being offset by the old Science Building.

MR. GARDINER:

The old Science Building, correct.

MR. PARDY:

Yes. Is there a plan for the old Science Building?

MR. GARDINER:

There's nothing definitive. There are some discussions on whether it should be

torn down or maybe refitted, but that plan is still in the works.

MR. PARDY:

Okay, good.

MUN references probably the highest enrolment they've had this year over some

time, which is good. I wonder: Did they dropped the minimum qualification? It

was always, was it not, 70? I think they dropped it for this year.

MR. GARDINER:

Yes, that's correct.

MR. PARDY:

So I'm assuming that would play a

part in the enrolment increase.

MR. GARDINER:

We've actually had that discussion with the president. The numbers, actually, of

students that would not have met the 70 per cent average that would normally be

required is not that substantial, but they are doing a bit of a deeper dive on

that just to monitor it.

MR. PARDY:

Okay, good.

The tuition freeze is great, but I've always contended that there are other

aspects that would leave – that MUN would be getting the money in the absence of

being able to increase the tuition. I always wondered about the extreme high

cost of student textbooks for MUN students. What would be the markup on those

books, the student textbooks? Would there be a markup that MUN would be getting

on those texts? Because it is outlandish, the cost of the student textbooks.

MR. GARDINER:

Yeah, I wouldn't have that, Craig.

MR. PARDY:

No, okay.

MR. GARDINER:

I wouldn't know what the markup is.

MR. PARDY:

We said in the K-to-12 system that face to face was the ultimate and we all

concurred with that. I would venture to say that it is the ultimate in

post-secondary education as well. What was the rationale for not opening MUN for

face to face, either in the fall or, in particular, more so the winter semester?

MS. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

The rationale has always been to ensure alignment with public health guidelines

that are in place at the current time. So paramount to any discussion that we've

had with Memorial, the college and the private training institutions, since

March, has been the safety of students, faculty and staff.

MR. PARDY:

Totally understandable. I agree wholeheartedly with that.

I just wonder: Why the distinction between the K-to-12 system and

post-secondary? Just for my own learning.

MR. GARDINER:

Craig, I think one of the main differences would be in the K-to-12 system, as

you can appreciate, we have 260 schools and it's localized. So, for the most

part, the students that are attending a K-to-12 school are in the same community

or certainly a neighbouring community. Not lost on us is the fact that

approximately 30 per cent of Memorial's students come from outside Newfoundland

and Labrador. So that would be significant in terms of bringing those

individuals, not only from Canada, but from international as well.

MR. PARDY:

Good, yeah.

If I may jump to 4.4.01. I asked about the delinquency earlier about the tuition

freeze, but I think this is more fitting now when we're talking about the

student loans.

MR. GARDINER:

That's information we would have to get for you, Craig.

MR. PARDY:

Okay.

MR. GARDINER:

I don't have that at the top of my head. But I will say is this, it's typically

not high from a provincial perspective, because most of the money that goes out

from a provincial perspective is in the form of grants. Again, there's a

collection process that is involved that Finance handles, but we can get you

some numbers on that.

MR. PARDY:

Okay. That's good.

I yield back to my colleague.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

Just one question at this point in time. My colleague brings up the fact that

the admissions average had been dropped. I'm just curious as to why they did

that? Would it be in recognition of the impact of COVID-19?

MR. GARDINER:

It simply comes down to the fact that, and the same with the K-to-12 system,

they don't want any student to be disadvantaged because of COVID-19. So, yes, it

would be because of the COVID-19 pandemic.

MR. J. DINN:

Okay, thank you.

That's it.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Mr. Pardy.

MR. PARDY:

Thank you, Sir, Mr. Chair.

MUN has seen an increase in enrolment. Has the College of the North Atlantic

seen similar?

MS. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

Yes, the college has seen about 6.7 per cent of an increase in this fall's

enrolment. I do caution, though, of the 5,841 or the 5,814 I shared with you as

the enrolment, around 780 of those are actually train-outs from last semester.

That's the other concern here for institutions is they have to ensure – not just

in terms of enrolment of new students, but they have to ensure that students who

may have been impacted by the COVID pandemic in the past year that their issues

and needs are addressed as well.

MR. PARDY:

Can you explain train-outs?

MS. ENNIS-WILLIAMS:

Basically what it means is that there were individuals who may have been slated

to graduate or complete a certain term in the spring, and because of the COVID

pandemic and any impact there they have had to become obviously a priority for

the College this semester.

MR. PARDY:

Thank you.

Shall the total carry?

All those in favour,'aye.'

SOME HON. MEMBERS:

Aye.

CHAIR:

All those against,'nay.'

The total is carried.

Madam Clerk, I guess I can turn for any final remarks. I'm thinking all my

little details.

Yes, I'll turn to the minister.

Thank you.

MR. OSBORNE:

Thank you.

I just wanted to thank Committee Members and all staff in the department for

coming back for a second day of the very exciting process of Estimates.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

Mr. Pardy.

MR. PARDY:

Just a little anecdote. I echo what the minister had stated, how exciting they

are.

When I first became an administrator in Clarenville, I remember one of my first

sessions when I went into the building; we had trouble with the furnace back at

that time. I remember our maintenance expert from the school district came in

and met with the crew from North Atlantic. As an administrator, when I listened

to the exchange between – and listened to our maintenance person who was hired

in that school district, he knew as much as the people who were going to service

and maybe even more.

Why I share that little anecdote was that one thing about these Estimates is

that when you ask a question, it's obvious the answer that you get back, you

have people who know what they're referencing and they know their stuff. That's

quite evident in the Estimates that we've had here.

I commend you on what you do. You appear to be at the top of your game. Good

stuff.

CHAIR:

Thank you.

The Member for St. John's Centre.

MR. J. DINN:

Thank you, Chair.

Again, thank you for the work you do. Newfoundland has such a vast geography and

the needs that face schools in St. John's are not necessarily the needs that

face a school up in Nain. It's a huge area, a vast number of needs.

Any time, Chair, that you're dealing with young people – multiple needs, they

come from different backgrounds. To try to come up with a system that meets all

of those needs is challenging at the best of times to allocate resources, and

also to govern post-secondary as well. It's a huge undertaking.

Thank you for the work you do and for the answers you provide.

CHAIR:

I'd like to thank you all. I find it can be a little dry but it certainly is

informative. I thank you all for your attention.

With that, I need a motion to adjourn.

MR. HAGGIE:

So moved.

CHAIR:

Thank you to the Member for Gander.

This is adjourned.

Do we have a next meeting? No, we don't. I have one more to witness.

With that, we'll vacate the premises, please, and allow the folks to come in and

clean up for us for another session at 1100 hours.

Thank you.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.

Document details

Collection	Newfoundland and Labrador — Committees
Citation	2020-10-20
Type	committee
Volume / chapter	committees_standingcommittees_socialservices_ga49_2020-10-20sscdepartmentofeducation.html
Language	en
Format	html
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	52649ee012dcde48f3faf76f1aeb3e3c7599ab72

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