June 7,

HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY PROCEEDINGS

Vol. XLII No. 57

The House met at 2:00 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER (Dicks): Order, please!

Statements by Ministers

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It gives me great pleasure today to inform the House that the

hon. John Crosbie has accepted my invitation to serve as Chancellor of Memorial

University of Newfoundland.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER WELLS: In accepting the appointment, John Crosbie

has yet again agreed to serve the people of this Province in the same tireless

manner in which he has served, not only this Province but this country, for more

than a quarter of a century. Mr. Crosbie's efforts on behalf of the people of

Newfoundland and Labrador, and indeed the people of Canada, are well known, and

while any elaboration of them at this time isn't necessary, for information

purposes I do so briefly for the record.

After having served briefly on the St. John's City Council,

Mr. Crosbie was first elected to this House in 1966, the same time that I was,

and where I had the pleasure of working closely with him for five years. He

served as a minister in the Cabinets of both Mr. Smallwood and Mr. Moores.

In 1976 he was elected to the House of Commons and served as

a minister in various portfolios in the administrations of Prime Ministers Clark

and Mulroney. On June 25, 1993, he decided to leave public life when the next

general election was called, having completed by then twenty-eight years of

public service.

Mr. Crosbie's earlier education included studies in St.

John's, Newfoundland; Aurora, Ontario; and at Queen's University, Kingston,

Ontario, where he graduated with first-class honours in political science and

economics, winning the University Medal in political science.

He studied law at Dalhousie Law School - `the' law school, in

some judgements, anyway - graduating in 1956 as the University Medallist in Law.

He was awarded the Viscount Bennett Scholarship by the Canadian Bar Association

as the outstanding law student for that year. During 1956-1957 he undertook

postgraduate studies at the Institute for Advanced Legal Studies at the

University of London and the London School of Economics. He was called to the

Newfoundland Bar in 1957, and was awarded an honourary Doctor of Laws Degree by

Dalhousie University in May of 1984.

Mr. Speaker, the role of Chancellor is to keep and preserve

the statutes, liberties, customs, rights and privileges of the University and to

promote its well-being and that of its members.

The Chancellor is a member of the Board of Regents and the

Senate, and serves as chairman of convocation. All degrees are conferred by the

Chancellor, or at least, in the name of the Chancellor.

Mr. Speaker, anyone knowing John Crosbie's history could only

agree that this eminent Newfoundlander is well-suited for the role of Chancellor

of Memorial University, and I am grateful to him for accepting the invitation to

serve in that capacity.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I'm very tempted to accuse the

government of one of the most blatant political patronage appointments they ever

made. A former Liberal member, a former Liberal Cabinet minister. But I shall

restrain myself from that because I know that isn't the case.

It would, however, be interesting to see - I would like to be

a fly on the wall when the Minister of Education has his first meeting with the

Chancellor, if he ever gets a chance to have it. That would be interesting to

see. Or with his - I gather the President of the University is the

Vice-Chancellor, if I recollect. Is that true?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. SIMMS: I believe Mr. May used to be the Deputy

Minister of Fisheries when Mr. Crosbie became the federal Minister of Fisheries,

if I'm not mistaken.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. SIMMS: Federally.

AN HON. MEMBER: No.

PREMIER WELLS: An earlier time.

MR. SIMMS: Anyway, aside from all of those asides, let me

commend the government on their choice. All of us, of course, most of us on this

side, for sure, know Mr. Crosbie fairly well. I certainly had some occasions

over the last few years as Leader of the party to deal with him. I think this is

a very deserved recognition of a considerable amount of dedicated public

service. I think that is number one, and the first thing that probably has to be

recognized. As the Premier said in his statement, of course, he has agreed to

once again serve the people of this Province in a very prestigious manner. And,

knowing John Crosbie as I do, I assure the government and the Premier that he

will work, as the Premier says, in a tireless effort to improve the lot of

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians through his new role of Chancellor at Memorial

University. We, on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, I can assure the

Premier, are most supportive, and commend the government for this particular

appointment.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. the Member for St. John's East

have leave to address the House?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave.

MR. SPEAKER: Leave given.

The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to rise and join in congratulating the

government on the appointment of Mr. Crosbie as Chancellor of Memorial

University. Mr. Crosbie and I may have disagreed over the years on policy issues

and these types of political differences, but Mr. Crosbie has, to bring to this

position, a great deal of energy, ability and international and national

contacts which are so important to the role of the Chancellor.

As many people know, one of the sub-texts of the role of the

Chancellor is to promote the University internationally and also financially,

and perhaps increase the contributions to the University by other bodies, other

companies, by international donations, by increasing the prestige of the

University, and I am sure, Mr. Crosbie's prodigious energy and talent and

ability will be brought to this task as he has brought it to every other task

that he has undertaken, and I think that is a very good appointment.

Oral Questions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Thank You.

Mr. Speaker, I have some questions for the Minister of Health

but I would like to put a question on a separate topic to the Premier, just a

short question.

From discussions the House Leaders have had, I am now

advised, it appears as if the sitting of the House is going to conclude in the

next couple of days; we will probably be settling most of the business that

government needs to deal with and the House will then close for the summer

recess. Now that that has been made clear, with only a couple of days left, I

presume now the Premier has his decision made with respect to Bill 1, Hydro

privatization, so I would like to ask him now a straightforward question - a

fairly straightforward question: Will he tell the House and the people of the

Province, does he intend now to call Bill 1 before the House closes in the next

couple of days?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: In the circumstances outlined by the

Leader of the Opposition, which I understand has come about as a result of

discussions between the two House Leaders, that they are looking at possibly

cluing up some other matters that need to be dealt with on a more urgent basis

and probably closing by Thursday or Friday of this week, in those circumstances,

no, Mr. Speaker, the Hydro bill wouldn't be called for this sitting; when it

will be dealt with, will be for government to decide in the future.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I have a new topic and I would

like to direct my questions to the Minister of Health.

One of the ways that hospitals in this Province have been

trying to deal with the financial restraint imposed upon them by the government,

in particular through budgetary cuts, has been to replace permanent employees

with casual employees. In fact, in some cases, Mr. Speaker, it seems that

permanent employees have been laid off, and then they have been re-hired as

casuals in some instances, I am told, even though most of those people will

still work the full complement required each week; indeed, I am told, by the

way, that some employees have worked as many as 100 hours a week during this

past year - nurses.

In addition to that, Mr. Speaker - and I hope the minister is

aware of this - it has come to my attention now that over one quarter of the

nurses employed in this Province are now listed as casual employees. I would

like to ask the minister: Does government support this shift, this movement,

towards casual employees as a way to save money in employee benefits? Is that

something you are advocating?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, there are a fair number of

casuals in the system now, and the reason for that is, when people are needed

they are called to work, and having a permanent person who comes on regular

shifts when not necessary is often not an appropriate way to handle the

situation that develops from time to time. In some areas we do have casuals and

we, in general, support where casuals are.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition on a

supplementary.

MR. SIMMS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I say to the minister there are a lot of changes going on in

the health care system that I think are driven primarily by fiscal restraint,

and many people in this Province, including myself, are concerned that very

little, or no consideration, in fact, has been given to the impact on health

care. Let me offer another example to the minister to see if he is aware of this

one.

After last year's budgetary cuts, there was a period of

several months when the intensive care unit in Twillingate didn't have one

permanent nurse on staff, and yet that is where you have the most critically ill

patients. In Twillingate their primary care depended on casual employees who

were called in on short notice, and in my view, Mr. Speaker, that is very

dangerous.

I want to ask the minister this: Has his department done an

assessment of the impact of the use of casual employees on the delivery of

health care in this Province, and presuming that he has, would he table the

findings in the House?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member referred to

Twillingate. There is not much point in having permanent people come to a unit

where there are no patients, and that is the problem.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Leader of the

Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: So the answer on the Twillingate issue, as the

minister said, is there were no patients in the intensive care unit during those

several months. Is that what he is saying? We will find out.

DR. KITCHEN: (Inaudible).

MR. SIMMS: No, it isn't what I am - you just said it, but

I am going to find out if that is accurate, and if it is not accurate I will be

asking the minister tomorrow to withdraw those comments and apologize to the

House for misleading it.

Mr. Speaker, let me ask the minister a final question. I am

talking about casual employees, and this is a concern that a lot of people have.

We all know, and I am sure the minister understands, that casual employment is

not a very attractive career option for people, because they can't get loans,

they can't get mortgages, they can't get credit for other major expenditures and

so on because of the very nature, lack of security with casual jobs. With those

kinds of prospects facing them, my concern is that the nursing profession in

this Province is going to find it very, very difficult in recruiting new

recruits if this is the trend towards casual employees. I'm sure the minister

understands that and I'm sure he must have concerns about it.

I want to ask him: Is this a trend that the government is

encouraging for jobs in the health care system in this Province? Is that what

he'd like to see done?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health.

DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, it's not so much a trend. Where

certain procedures are not taken, or where a ward or part of a hospital is not

highly used or where there are only a few patients, there's not much point in

having a full staff in that particular area; and that's what has been happening

in some parts of the Province. Rather than having a full crew on, what you do is

you have some on, if you need them, permanently and then you call in people as

the demand increases. That seems to be a perfectly reasonable way to operate

health care.

The health care system doesn't operate primarily to provide

permanent jobs to any one profession. It's there to take care of the sick in the

best way possible using the funds that we have. That's the problem and that's

what we're trying to do. So, it's good to have casuals where casuals are

appropriate, and in some cases casuals are appropriate.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, my question is to the President of Treasury

Board. Yesterday the Minister of Education gave several reasons for cancelling

public exams this year. One of the reasons was that there was no guarantee that

exams would be marked. Now let me ask the President of Treasury Board, if the

minister's statement indicates that the government doesn't expect, nor do they

want, a settlement to the strike before the end of the school year?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, we have been working diligently

and are still working towards achieving a negotiated settlement in terms of the

collective bargaining with the Newfoundland and Labrador Teachers' Association.

We will continue to pursue that course and I hope that we're successful. Mr.

Speaker, that is the prudent course to follow at this point in time.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Menihek.

MR. A. SNOW: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, if schools don't reopen this year, the

government will save approximately $80 to $100 million over this school year in

operating the educational system. Now a lot of people think that you and the

government will find this cash, this windfall, if you'd like to call it that, as

irresistible. Now hopefully you can convince us, the people of this Province,

that that is not true. What new initiatives have you taken to get an agreement

with the NLTA?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, without getting into the details,

the numbers the hon. gentleman are using are totally incorrect, and I could

perhaps at some point in time sit down with him and go over the numbers, but

they are totally incorrect.

Mr. Speaker, it is my fondest wish that before the school

year ends that we have a negotiated settlement to the teachers' strike and that

they are back in the classrooms before the end of the year. That is my objective

and I am not going to comment on the speculation as to what happens if we don't

get an agreement three weeks, six weeks or two years down the road. It's pure

speculation, Mr. Speaker, and it would be pure folly for me to respond in that

way.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Menihek, a final

supplementary.

MR. A. SNOW: Mr. Speaker, a few weeks ago the minister

spoke optimistically about the better than expected performance of the

provincial economy during this first quarter. Now since the teachers' strike

will undoubtedly have a negative impact on our provincial economy and consumer

spending - I am sure the minister is aware of that - have you taken into account

what effect this will have on the performance of the economy in the second and

third quarter?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of Treasury Board.

MR. BAKER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we are taking that into

account.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford -

Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have some questions for the Minister of Education.

Yesterday the minister announced the cancellation of the public examinations.

Many students whose records of achievement may be classified as borderline have

concerns about their final evaluation and how it will be calculated. Will the

minister be issuing precise guidelines for the tabulation of student marks; how

will borderline students be assured of fair treatment; and will there be an

appeal procedure readily available to students?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I made clear yesterday that in

due course all of these things will be revealed. We have to put a process in

place to make sure that no student is treated unfairly.

The disadvantage that the borderline student will have is

that he is not going to be able to solve all of his past problems in one fell

swoop, as sometimes would be the case if there were a public exam. I expressed

concern yesterday that the one particular group that might indeed be impacted on

a bit negatively in this would be the student who is depending on that final

mark in the public to pull himself or herself out of a bad year. That is a

little bit difficult one to handle.

As far as an appeal process, the same appeal process will be

there as would have been there in any other year, and every effort will be

made... The results, the marks, will ultimately end up in the department, and it

is the Department of Education which will be awarding a diploma based on these

marks just as soon as we can get them.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Waterford - Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the minister knows that there

are approximately 115 to 120 different courses in the senior high school

curriculum, and that only eighteen of these courses were scheduled to be

evaluated by way of public examinations. Does the minister, therefore, intend to

proceed with the balance of the evaluations without the use of teacher in-school

marks, and if he does intend to get the in-school marks, what procedure is he

going to put in place to ensure that they become available?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, in a normal year there would be

at least three different components used to give a final mark. It would be the

in-school marks; it would be, for the eighteen or twenty courses which are in

the publics, the public exam; and it would also be the teacher's evaluation of

the student. You try to mesh these three, and then you would come up with a fair

evaluation of what the student did.

Now, this year we are sure one component will not be there;

that is the public exams. We are not sure as to whether or not the teaching

component will be there. Who knows, maybe tomorrow or the next day we might have

a negotiated settlement with the teachers. If we don't have that negotiated

settlement then we are going to have to go on simply one component, which is the

in-school marks, the results of the quizzes and tests.

Now the vast majority of cases where the tests were written

are available at the board offices, especially boards that are computerized,

that has been fed through the school system and it actually stays in the board

office. In the vast majority of schools in the Province students did receive

written reports. I say, the vast majority, because there are schools which don't

give that, so there are always exceptions.

If we have to we will try to base the mark on the in-school

exams, but to try to compensate for the other two components we will be using

the computer system in the department to go back three years - in the case of

Grade XII - or two years or whatever, because it has pretty well been determined

that a student's performance in future years - not 100 per cent, it is not

totally accurate - but generally speaking, you can track a student from Grades

X, XI, XII to get some indication as to where he or she is.

Before the hon. member gets up and says so, I will have to

say that there are always exceptions. There are exceptions to every rule. But

generally speaking, educators, as the hon. member, being one, will know, using

that as a part of the overall system - you wouldn't take one item alone - but

bringing it together, I am confident that if the teachers don't go back, we can

give a diploma which will be accepted by the universities in the Atlantic region

and yes, it will be accepted in Ontario and British Columbia, anywhere in the

world. Because it will be a diploma exactly like the diploma that students have

received for the last twenty-five or fifty years, but it will be based on

certain criteria which are educationally sound, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I have some questions for the

Minister of Finance. We are now into the third month of this fiscal year. As the

minister knows, in compiling his Budget he looks at the economic performance up

to the end of the calendar year of 1993 - that would have been the latest

quarterly report that he had available to him, with some updating of any data

that might be available. Can the minister tell us now, really, six months since

that data was compiled, does he see any appreciable change? We've had some

indication that the economy may be performing a little bit better than we had

predicted. Would the minister like to give us an update on that now?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. member is

certainly right; he understands the budgeting process. When our Budget was put

together, we were looking at real numbers up to the end of the last calendar

year, and beyond that it was simply projections. Since that time, a number of

things have happened.

First of all, in the first quarter of this calendar year

there have been some improvements beyond what we expected in the economy. There

have been more full-time jobs created in the private sector than we had

estimated. There is better spending activity than we had predicted. So the first

quarter of the calendar year turned out to be a little better than we had

estimated; therefore, we changed our growth projections that were in our Budget

recently, upwards, more in line with the Conference Board of Canada and their

projections.

Since then we've also had extra information from this fiscal

year beyond the first three months of the calendar year which also seems to

indicate that things are getting better and government revenues perhaps will be

better than we had estimated in the Budget. I would like to tell the hon. member

that the final numbers for April were significantly better than we had expected

on just about all fronts. I'm hoping that May, when it is put together - early

indications are that it is good - but when it is put together in the next two or

three weeks we will see a continuation of that positive trend.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, that is certainly encouraging

news from the minister. We are pleased to see that. Would the minister tell us,

though, what does he see as the implications of the ongoing strike of the NTA,

and I guess the insecurity of other public servants in view of the ongoing

negotiations, prolonged negotiations, with other public sector bargaining units?

Obviously, there is a lack of consumer confidence as it relates to public

servants and teachers who are a little concerned about spending, and that

relates itself into a lack of corporate confidence of businesses that don't want

to invest and move forward.

Can he give us something to look forward to? Can he tell us

that this situation is not going to overall affect us in the long-term? Does he

predict that we will see real growth? The predicted 0.6 per cent for this year -

I think he just indicated that would go up. Can he give us a guess, as well, I

know he is not going to give us a real number; he answered the question the

other day - our deficit was predicted at $24.6 million. Where does he see that

now?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, there is an awful lot of

substance to the question and I am not sure if I can answer all of it. First of

all, we have put our projections up to 1 per cent rather than .06 per cent in

terms of growth, and that will be looked at again once we get more numbers from

this current fiscal year. I would suggest to him that the main point at which we

would reassess would be perhaps October, when we have the mid-year results, when

we have a longer trend to look at, and further adjustments at that time being

made.

I would like to point out to him that a lot of what's

happened, and I am sure he knows this, has revolved around a matter of trust

rather than reality, and when things started to get really bad about three,

three-and-a-half, four years ago, we went through a very rough time with our

public sector unions and our approach was that in the fall we would sit down

with them, go over the numbers and say look: our numbers are much worse than we

had projected. What is the solution to this? And the hon. member knows what we

have gone through on that, and obviously, this could not happen year after year.

There would have to come a point when things don't continually get worse but you

have to come to a year when things start to get better. I believe this is the

year that things have started to get better and I hope that people in the

Province would develop some kind of confidence from that turnaround.

In our negotiations with the public sector unions, we have

gone through that scenario with them, that if, in the Fall, when we become

confident of our numbers, when we become confident that this is really happening

and the amount, and we could actually change our numbers, then we perhaps may

not want that about 2.5 per cent from them that we have been talking about, so

some decisions would be delayed until then, anyway, in that process. Obviously,

as the situation improves - our $24.5 million deficit on current account was

based on the supposition that we would get $50 million from total compensation

so, as our revenues improve, we will keep to that target of $24.5 million, but

not take as much from the public sector unions. If it reaches that level where

we have the $50 million or $60 million improvement in revenues, then you will

see our current account deficit dropping, so I could give him an accurate answer

probably at the end of September.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

If members would stop talking across the House. We had a very

well-conceived question and a wonderful answer, but I don't think all the

members heard it, and I would like to give the hon. gentleman, the Member for

Mount Pearl, and the minister the due attention they deserve.

The hon. the Member for Mount Pearl.

MR. WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Just a very quick question and a very brief answer, Mr.

Speaker.

The minister partially answered it I think, and if I

understand him correctly, he said that if conditions improve, then he will be

asking for less from public sector, leaving the deficit as was projected, which

I think is imminently sensible. Let me ask the minister: Are there any

short-term programs to deal with the unemployment situation; we can't wait until

October to find out if we are in good financial position. Does the minister,

does the government, have any plans to deal with the unemployment problem in the

short term?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes - a short answer.

MR. BAKER: No.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. BAKER: It didn't work.

Mr. Speaker, at this point in time, no; at this point in

time, we have seen an increase in the number of jobs in the private sector in

the Province, I am hopeful that will continue throughout the year. If, a little

later, we see the necessity for an emergency program, then I am sure the

Minister of Employment and Labour Relations will be coming to Treasury Board

with his urgent request and I am sure it will be looked upon in the normal way

that we look at those things in Treasury Board, but what we are hoping is that

as the job-creation in the private sector improves and increases as it seems to

be doing, and if that continues, hopefully there will be no need for an

emergency job-creation program this year. I would like to add that there are

other things happening in terms of other programs, federal programs and so on

that may, later on in the year have some impact on that decision, but we have to

wait and see what that impact is.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to ask a question of the acting Minister of Tourism

and Culture - the acting, acting minister. I ask the minister if the Department

of Tourism and Culture has any plans to carry out much needed work, such as

exterior painting and roof repairs, to the historic sites in the Province, and

especially, the Cape Bonavista Light House this year?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The detail of that

particular question, I don't know, but I certainly will undertake to get the

answer as soon as possible.

MR. SIMMS: That's the best answer you ever gave.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Bonavista South.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Speaker, I've have a couple of more

questions here, maybe I could just read them into the record and if the minister

would be kind enough to get back the answers to me before the closing of the

House or I can table them -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. FITZGERALD: Okay. Mr. Speaker, it is my understanding

that the historic sites at Bonavista will not open until July 1. Since the

tourism shoulder season has proven successful in the past, I ask the minister,

why the delay in opening those tourist attractions this year? Also, Mr. Speaker,

several bus tours have already passed through the town of Bonavista and they

have been refused admission to the tourist attractions there. I ask the minister

why this is allowed to happen when your department has a full-time tour guide

supervisor on staff, who is willing to open the historic sites but has not

received permission from your department? I ask the minister, would he check

into this and provide us with some answers before the House adjourns?

MR. SIMMS: A good question.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations, if he wishes to reply at this time.

MR. GRIMES: Mr. Speaker, just so that the record in

Hansard shows, we will give the undertaking to try to get the answers later

today, if at all possible, but certainly as soon as possible.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My first question is to the Premier. The Province has had the

Argentia re-use study since last Fall, you've had applicable departments input.

The Argentia Development Corporation and others home have been waiting since

mid-March because they were given to understand that by mid-March they would get

a letter from your office stating the Province's philosophy about the

redevelopment, management and other intentions concerning Argentia. When can we

hope to receive your government's paper, Sir, on their position?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: All of the correspondence has been

answered in full. Not only has the correspondence been answered, in fact, when

anything has been done and when the government has taken other actions, for the

most part - I can't say that it has happened every time, but for the most part -

we have either sent copies of the correspondence to the Argentia committee or

we've written them to explain what's been happening. Frankly, the committee in

Argentia has been kept pretty well up to date, to the best of my knowledge. They

certainly have for anything that I've been involved in. The Minister of

Industry, Trade and Technology is taking a particular responsibility for this

problem. He isn't here today, he's at meetings in Fredericton, I think.

MR. ROBERTS: Yes, he will be here tomorrow.

PREMIER WELLS: He will be here tomorrow so if he wants to

ask the minister at that time, where the matter now stands, I'm sure the

minister can inform him.

MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. the Member for

Placentia.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It was a positional

paper that they were waiting for from the Province.

My next question is to the Minister of Finance. The pension

division in the Department of Finance has had correspondence with the US Navy

concerning registration of the pension plan for civilian employees at Argentia.

The pension division claims the plan must be registered under Newfoundland law

while the US Navy says it is not subject to provincial laws. Have you accepted

the position of the US Navy on this matter or are you still insisting that the

plan be registered?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, I don't have the answer to that

question right now but I'll look into it and get back to the hon. gentleman.

MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the Member

for Placentia.

MR. CAREEN: While employees at the Argentia facility are

very concerned that the Americans may find a way to provide minimum pension

benefits after the base closes, I was wondering if the Province - are they

pursuing a matter - when the minister finds out - on a purely legal

technicality? Do they think it is necessary in order to adequately protect the

pension plan? Is there anything the Province can do on its own, or jointly with

the federal government, to prevent the Americans from cheaply discharging their

responsibilities to the Newfoundland civilians in Argentia?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER WELLS: I can only tell the member that I think he

is off base on the pension thing. My recollection, Mr. Speaker -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)

PREMIER WELLS: The base proposes to shut down in October.

My recollection, Mr. Speaker, is that under the ordinary

rules there are some 100 at Argentia that wouldn't qualify for pensions. The

American authorities have, in fact, agreed to extend the severence benefits. The

pension issue, I know, is being dealt with. The federal government has been

involved and so has the provincial government.

To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, the Americans are

living up to the existing legal obligations. As the minister says, we can take

the convoluted question as notice and provide an answer tomorrow.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Kilbride.

MR. E. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the Minister of Employment and Labour

Relations, dealing with some proposed changes to the Workers' Compensation

Appeal Tribunal he announced yesterday at a press conference.

The minister knows full well that employers' councils,

employers' groups, employees themselves, injured workers and employee

associations like the Federation of Labour, have been lobbying the minister for

some time to make changes to the Workers' Compensation Appeal Tribunal. The

changes that all of those groups have suggested to the minister have been these:

That they hire a full-time employer rep, a full-time employee rep, and a neutral

chairperson. Did the minister consider the stakeholders who were involved in the

tribunal? Did he consider those recommendations from the industry, and from the

stakeholders?

The second part of the question, Mr. Speaker, is: Based upon

the new proposals made by the minister, is the minister or government

considering having the review commissioners that he has proposed to bring in -

he has suggested by Cabinet - hired by the Public Service Commission?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Employment and

Labour Relations.

MR. GRIMES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I appreciate the couple of questions and will try to provide

brief answers.

As was indicated yesterday in the press conference, where we

announced these significant changes, and as will be spelled out as we debate

this particular issue, it is clear that the view I presented yesterday on behalf

of government was that we feel very strongly that we did listen to the

representation, and we understood the basis whereby all of those interested

parties would have preferred, their stated preference would have been, that

there be a full-time tribunal.

The review of it on our part, in comparing it with other

similar types of review panels and adjudication procedures, is that there is no

reason that we can understand why there needs to be a three person decision

making process at the review stage. If the representatives of workers and

employers really want to have a real impact into what kinds of decisions are

made with respect to workers' compensation and entitlement for individual

claimants, they need to put their efforts into making sure that the appropriate

policies are developed at the commission itself, because those policies form the

basis of the decisions that are rendered.

There is, by virtue of legislation, a role on that board, the

Workers' Compensation Commission Board itself, for both employers'

representatives and employees' representatives in equal numbers, so that they

can have the input there that they should. In our view they should continue to

increase their efforts to try to make sure that they really influence the

regulations and the policies that provide the framework for the decisions in the

first instance, rather than be concerned about the review of less than 5 per

cent of the decisions that ever get appealed. We are concerned about all the

decisions, but that is the view that we will put to those people, and so on.

With respect to the commissioners, Mr. Speaker: It is true

that we are interested in looking at some mechanism to find, where there is an

expression of interest, what types of people are there, other than the normal

pool of lawyers who would sit in this review commissioner role. We will find an

appropriate position, but these positions, just as ADMs within government,

deputy ministers, and so on, are not public service positions. They are review

commissioners appointed by Cabinet. We will find an appropriate way to find an

expression of interest to make sure that we do appoint people who will be

acceptable to everybody in the system on the basis of qualification and

demonstrated impartiality, which is the real ingredient for making these

decisions.

MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has elapsed.

Notices of Motion

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I give notice that I will, on tomorrow, ask leave to

introduce the following bills:

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Highway Traffic Act."

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Department of Works, Services

and Transportation Act."

A bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Tendering Act."

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Petitions

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Fortune - Hermitage.

MR. LANGDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I have a petition on behalf of 205 people from

the Town of Gaultois, and I want to read the petition.

To the hon. House of Assembly of Newfoundland and Labrador,

in Parliament assembled;

WHEREAS we, the undersigned affected residents who depend on

ferry services, who are petitioners, who are citizens of Canada;

WHEREAS the electors of Fortune - Hermitage, residents of the

Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, residents of the Town of Gaultois, draw

attention to the House of Assembly to the following: That the affected residents

who depend on ferry services will suffer the consequences with the downgrading

of ferry services or operations;

THEREFORE your petitioners pray that the House of Assembly

will take such action as it deems advisable to upgrade and maintain the present

level of ferry services.

Mr. Speaker, the reason for the particular petition that we

have in front of us today is that some time ago Marine Atlantic, in conjunction

with Works, Services and Transportation, went to the south coast to present a

number of options to the people in the isolated communities whereby they might

be able to improve the service to the people along the coast.

After the Minister of Works, Services and Transportation,

officials from his department and people from Marine Atlantic met, the residents

of Gaultois met and they felt that they did not want any downgrading of the

ferry service. The minister has assured them, and assured them in the meeting

that was attended by the councillor as well, that there would not be any

downgrading of the service. In fact, we have a great service to the Town of

Gaultois, and over the last number of years, since we have had the new ferry in

service, we have had no complaints. That is basically what the people are asking

for, that the service be maintained.

Not only did the minister agree to maintain the services, but

he also issued a challenge to the people that were there, to give him a proposal

whereby the people of Gaultois might be able to avail of or use the recreational

facility that is in Harbour Breton over the winter months. I understand that the

committee is already working on that proposal, to do that so that the young

people from the school and the young teenagers from Gaultois, can at least on

two nights a week be able to attend the festivities and the sports that go on in

the Connaigre Arena on the Connaigre Peninsula.

I want to commend the minister for suggesting that to the

people of Gaultois without their even prompting him to it.

The people of Gaultois also understand that the residents of

McCallum on the south coast, and the residents of Rencontre East, and up into

the Member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir's district, in Grey River and Franois,

that these people have terrible service along the coast. It is the intention of

Marine Atlantic, in conjunction with the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation, to improve services to these people so that they will at least

have ferry service once a day.

It has come over my desk recently, and I guess other members

from the south coast as well, where Marine Atlantic has already indicated that

it is going to introduce a modified service along the coast this year, where the

boat will go from Hermitage to Bay L'Argent, and then from Hermitage up to Port

aux Basques. So Hermitage becomes the port of call, so to speak, and the service

centre for the south coast, the Bay d'Espoir area. I am pleased with that;

however, I am looking forward to even a more improved service, and that is what

the minister and Marine Atlantic are ensuring.

A note in passing: When we met with the people from Rencontre

East, they said to the minister: - I think there was one person in particular -

There was one time last year when we were waiting eight days to get a letter and

to be able to get mail in and out of the community. Obviously these people

deserve a better service than that, and they will in conjunction with Marine

Atlantic and the Province.

Mr. Speaker, I support the petition. I also want to say, in

doing so, that the people of Gaultois do not have to fear a downgrading of the

service. At least we will maintain what we have here with the hopes of improving

an already viable ferry service to the Town of Gaultois.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Placentia.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I am glad to rise today to support the member opposite in the

prayer of the petition for the people of Gaultois, that their service will not

be downgraded any more than it is.

The minister, a number of weeks ago, told me they had met

with the people up on the coast, and before any decision was going to be made by

the provincial government, they would again get back to those people in their

communities, which is fair. Those people up on the South Coast have been

subjected to Marine Atlantic's attitude over the decades. I've seen it, I was

there myself. CN Marine or East Coast Marine and Ferry Services, or whatever

they were called - the people on the South Coast were subjected lots of time to

strange schedules, but that was the only way they were able to get out. Marine

Atlantic over the years has taken a narrow-minded view, and I hope with the

minister's input, the people will be able to avail of services, as they should

be, at this point in the 20th century.

I remind the member opposite that there used to be an old

saying: There are three ways to do things, the right way, the wrong way and the

railway. I hope that doesn't prevail. I hope the minister will be able to put

forward the best needs of the people, and I'm sure he will.

Marine Atlantic has a narrow-minded view. They are that

narrow minded they can look through a keyhole using both eyes. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. EFFORD: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to be able to say

that working with the people on the South Coast, working with Marine Atlantic,

and the officials of the Department of Works, Services and Transportation, it is

our goal to improve the service along the South Coast; not only working with the

people of Gaultois, but all the other communities there, and keeping in mind the

needs of every community, not putting one community in front of another

community. We are taking in the concerns of all the people along the South

Coast.

I understand the reasons why some of the people of Gaultois

would be concerned. Because when you go to a community and you present the

options, as we did, to all the councils and the groups of individuals in all of

those communities, naturally the fear from people outside of those meetings

would be: If there are changes going to come possibly we could lose some of our

service. That is not the intention of the department. The intention is to work

towards improving the service along the South Coast.

Now, when you see and talk to some of the people up there on

the South Coast, in Rencontre East, getting the ferry service only two to three

days a week, and sometimes not that, depending on the weather conditions,

putting a piece of mail in the post office and going back a week later and that

same piece of mail is still there because the services haven't been there to

take it out of the communities, it is time in 1994 that we take the concerns of

the people with great interest and move towards improving that services.

I want to say very clearly that the people at Marine Atlantic

- the hon. member opposite spoke about the negative attitude. I have not seen

that. The people of Marine Atlantic, the people of all those communities, and

the people of my department are now working towards, and have already

implemented, some of the new services.

I look forward to working with the people of Gaultois in the

next year - the children of that community want to get out for the recreational

purposes - putting the extra services on so they can avail of the services as we

do, people who don't live in isolated areas. We experience and take for granted

that we can get aboard our vehicle anytime that we want to, and move about in

any mode of transportation. All we are saying is that we want to be able to

provide to the people on the South Coast, as close as we possibly can, a service

that is equal to what we have, the service that we take for granted.

The hon. member can be assured that as minister of this

department I will do everything in my power to ensure that they do not get a

downgrading but they get an improvement of services.

MR. SPEAKER: Before proceeding to Orders of the Day, I

wish to point out that the hon. Member for St. John's East has two private

motions on the Order Paper. That is not permitted. That is contrary to our Order

38(c). I would ask the hon. member to clarify his position with respect to the

two motions. One I believe was on St. John's busing, the other on the

Newfoundland pony.

The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, I understand that it is up to me

to indicate which one should be deleted from the Order Paper. I would delete the

one that is now standing and substitute the one that I gave notice of yesterday.

MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave to withdraw

the motion concerning busing?

All in favour, `aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye!

MR. SPEAKER: Leave given. The one on the Newfoundland

pony will stand.

Orders of the Day

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, before we actually get into the

business of the afternoon, the House might want to know what the House Leaders

have cooked up as the menu for today, if that's not mixing the metaphor.

I am going to ask the House to deal first with Motion 1,

which I understand will be dealt with quickly with a minimum of debate, then we

will go on to Order 18 which is Bill 28, The Literacy Council bill. My friend,

the Member for the Strait of Belle Isle district will be the minister

responsible for that, and then, if we get through that, as I hope we will, we

will go on to deal with the NLCS bill which is Order 15, Bill 24, that stands in

the name of my friend, the Member for Gander, the Minister of Finance, and if we

are still going strong at that stage, I will ask that we deal with Committee and

third reading on Orders 3 and 4, that is, the two bills that we dealt with

yesterday at second reading.

Now, I understand that once the debate gets going, the House

Leaders and perhaps my friend, the Member for St. John's East, could join us; we

will meet behind the Chair to discuss the business for tomorrow and thence on

in. That's the

schedule we plan to ask the House to address, so with that said,

I ask Your Honour to call Motion 1, Mr. Speaker, which stands in my name.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader, I

didn't hear which you wished to have called after this motion, which was the

second matter you wanted to move to after this motion? The first order of

business -

MR. ROBERTS: Motion 1, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: Yes, Motion 1, then after Motion 1?

MR. ROBERTS: Order 18, Bill 28.

MR. SPEAKER: Order 18 would be the second one.

It is moved and seconded that a Select Committee be appointed

pursuant to Motion 1.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I don't need to say very much

at all on this motion except to make the point that the Commissioner of Members'

Interests, Mr. Mitchell, filed a report, I guess his first annual report, with

the House on April 25, and in that, he raised a number of issues that, in his

opinion, ought to be addressed by the members of the House, by the Legislature,

so this motion is designed to set up a mechanism whereby these issues can be

examined by a Select Committee which, as always, will represent both sides of

the House; the Committee will bring in whatever recommendations they wish, the

matter will come back to the House and the House will then decide what further

action is to be taken; so with that said, I move the motion, Sir.

MR. SPEAKER: Anybody else on the motion?

The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Mr. Speaker, I just want to make one comment.

Ordinarily, a Select Committee motion would include the names of the Committee

members. Given that we are dealing here with issues involving members' interests

and we have had representation from all three parties in considering these

matters from previous occasions, I just would want to have some indication as to

how it is proposed that the - you know, how many members the Committee would

have, how they are to be chosen, etc., and perhaps this should be part of the

motion unless there is some private understanding of which I haven't been made

aware, and I would want to have that matter clarified, Mr. Speaker, before

voting on the motion.

MR. SPEAKER: Anything further?

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Yes, just very briefly, Mr. Speaker. As I

understood it, the government wanted to appoint a Select Committee to address

the concerns raised in the report of the Commissioner; we agreed, we thought it

was a good idea, we were asked to supply some nominees from our party to sit on

the Committee, we have done so and it is not my recollection that a motion like

this when it is moved has the names included in the motion.

MR. ROBERTS: No, sometimes not.

MR. SIMMS: Yes, but most often, as I recollect, they are

appointed after the motion is passed and the Committee is appointed, but anyway,

it doesn't -

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, my friend, the Leader of the

Opposition and I for once are reading from the same text. It is my understanding

of the rules and practices of the House that a motion to name a Select Committee

does not have to have the names in it although it may if the mover so wishes. In

the event it doesn't, as is the case here, the Speaker will name the Committee

on the advice of - I guess me, but I consult, obviously, with others in the

House. I have consulted with my friend, the Member for Grand Bank and, Mr.

Speaker, if the House wishes, I would give the names of those I propose to send

forward; we would ask the Member for Fortune - Hermitage to chair the Committee,

the Member for Bonavista South, the Member for Eagle River, the Member for Fogo,

the Member for Humber East, the Member for Humber Valley and the Member for

Terra Nova; that is four from those who sit to Your Honour's left and three from

those who sit to Your Honour's right, which is the normal representation that we

followed in dealing with that. Of course, any member of the House may take

part

in debates of a Select Committee and make points, ask questions, what have you,

except the restriction is that only members of the Committee may actually vote

on the report of the Committee.

With that said, Mr. Speaker, I move the resolution.

MR. SPEAKER: In response, I don't know that there is a

requirement in our rules, subject to correction, that the motion itself must

name the committee, so in the absence of an express order, I don't think there

is any difficulty with the motion as such. I presume from the debate, the House

is ready for the question.

All in favour of the motion, `aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye!

MR. SPEAKER: Contra-minded, `nay'.

Motion carried.

MR. SIMMS: Usually move the member (inaudible) also.

MR. SPEAKER: Yes. Do the members wish to - well, there is

no motion before the House to appoint the Committee at this stage.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I move that the members whose

names I just read out be appointed to be the members of the Committee. I would

add, the only reason they are not in the motion is that I had not completed

consultations with my hon. friend opposite when at the time the motion was put

down. It is no more mysterious than that, Sir.

MR. SPEAKER: Yes. The motion is that the Member for

Fortune - Hermitage be appointed the Chairman and that the Committee be

constituted of other members, including the Members for Bonavista South, Eagle

River, Fogo, Humber East, Humber Valley and Terra Nova.

All in favour of the motion, `aye'.

MR. SIMMS: (Inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I wonder would the House Leader

agree to amend his motion to appoint the Member for Humber East as the

Vice-Chairman? I think that was our indication. At least -

MR. ROBERTS: I have no problem. I understood committees

named their own Vice-Chair,but if it is appropriate - I mean, certainly, the

Vice-Chair would come from the Opposition side of the House.

MR. SIMMS: Well, we can move it anyway, so -

MR. ROBERTS: I would think it is normally left to the

Committee, Mr. Speaker, in my understanding, but whatever is appropriate. We

certainly have no difficulty with the hon. member being the Vice- Chair.

MR. SIMMS: It's just as well to move it now (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: The motion before the House is to appoint a

chairperson with six committee members.

MR. SIMMS: And I amended it (inaudible).

MR. SPEAKER: So we will -

AN HON. MEMBER: The motion is amended.

MR. SPEAKER: The motion as amended would have the same

membership with the Member for Humber East being appointed the Vice-Chairperson.

All in favour of the amendment, `aye'.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Aye!

MR. SPEAKER: Contra-minded, `nay'.

Motion carried.

MR. SPEAKER: The Committee is appointed with the

Chairperson and Vice-Chairperson as indicated.

The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, would you be good enough to

call Order 18, Bill 28, the Literacy Council bill, for my friend, the Minister

of Education.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting The

Literacy Development Council Of Newfoundland And Labrador". (Bill No. 28)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, before introducing second

reading, I would like to pay tribute to the hon. the Member for Bellevue, who

played a significant role in having this legislation prepared and presented to

this House of Assembly. The Member for Bellevue had a substantial amount of

discussion with myself and the Premier and other members of government over the

past months and tried to encourage us and tell us that this was the right way to

go to attempt to deal with some of the literacy problems in the Province. I

would certainly want to pay tribute to the hon. member for all the work he has

done.

This bill would create the Literacy Development Council of

Newfoundland and Labrador. It is our intention that the Council would operate at

arm's length from government. If hon. members were to look at clause 3, and I

will just touch on some of the objects of the Council when it is place. "The

objects of the council" - and I won't go through all of them - would be, in

3((b): "to assess and respond to the literacy needs of the people of the

province as those needs are perceived by community committees, local

organizations, private citizens or other groups and to ensure that quality

literacy programming and services are provided."

One of the problems we have with the literacy programs that

are being presented today in the Province is a lack of co-ordination. It seems

like there are a lot of dedicated, well-meaning groups of people, including

government, who are trying to attack the literacy problems. There seems to be a

lack of co-ordination, Mr. Speaker. An observer would almost get the impression

that we're all going off in a dozen different directions. So one of the duties

of this council would be to co-ordinate literacy programs and services in the

Province through the promotion and fostering of co-operation among agencies and

organizations providing literacy programs, services and interdepartmental

co-operation. If you were to look at government, you would find that in the

Department of Education there is a substantial amount of money being spent on

literacy. You will also find that in the Department of Social Services there's a

considerable amount of money being spent on literacy, in Justice and in all the

departments of government but there is not as much co-ordination as we would

like to see there. So this council will foster co-operation among different

agencies and also will foster interdepartmental co-operation.

The powers of the council are listed out on page 4 of the

act. The powers of the council would include the power to institute a strategic

provincial plan for the provision of literacy programs and services and the

utilization of technology for deliverance of those literacy programs and

services.

Mr. Speaker, we can no longer rely on just a teacher in the

classroom. We have to get into all the new technology and there are a lot of

programs. One of the programs which is being used substantially by the

Fishermen's Union is the Plato program, which hon. members are aware of, and the

use of computers and other technology in literacy programs is becoming more and

more prevalent all the time. The distance education -

MR. MURPHY: (Inaudible).

MR. DECKER: Yes, my friend, the Member for St. John's

South, referred me to the Labourers International and their mobile unit, where

again, they're using technology in the teaching of literacy and we have barely

scraped the surface on what can be done with literacy through distance

education, Mr. Speaker. So the powers of the council would be to institute a

strategic provincial plan whereby we could utilize technology in delivery of

literacy programs.

This council has the authority to enter into agreements with

government, a government department or an agency of government and this would

include both Federal and Provincial Governments,of course, Mr. Speaker. The

council could enter into an agreement with persons who carry on a trade, a

business or commercial activity or any other commercial business or industry.

The council could enter into agreements with the educational

institutions or community groups, any group or organization which is promoting

literacy in the Province. The council would be able to provide facilities and

grants, enter into agreements for research, conduct research related to all

be conducted by or on behalf of the council. The council will be empowered to

accept and disperse grants and gifts and bequests to the council - and to fix,

receive and collect payments for services and research, Mr. Speaker.

On page 6 of the act, in clause 5, it points out that the

council shall apply to be a registered charity for the purpose of the Income Tax

Act. At one time we thought about having a separate foundation but after

discussing it with the legal people we discovered that we could accomplish the

same purpose without going with a separate foundation. If we had had a separate

foundation we would have had to put in place trustees and there would have been

a substantial amount of administration involved with that, so the council,

itself, will be able to accept donations.

I should point out, Mr. Speaker, that one very practical

thing, which we'll see in the not-too-distant future, is the Peter Gzowski Golf

Tournament. They have been making a substantial contribution to literacy in this

Province. They have their annual event every year. But where the old literacy

coalition has disappeared there is no council or organization now which can

receive these monies, no group which has a charitable organization status. So

this new council will be able to accept donations from anyone who wishes to make

a donation to the cause of literacy, and one of the sources for such a

contribution, I would suggest, would be the Peter Gzowski Golf Tournament.

As the membership on the council now, we want to make this

council operate arm's length from government. One reason is because we are so

fair in everything we do, but I tell hon. members, that is not the only reason

we want to make it arm's length. If it is not arm's length from government, it

will not be able to take advantage of many of the grants and much of the

assistance which would be made available from other levels of government, for

example, the Federal Government. If this council were not arm's length from

government, there are a lot of grants that it would not be able to accept from

the Federal Government; however, the first council shall be appointed by the

minister and shall consist of a chairperson, and not less than seven and not

more than eighteen voting members - that is the first council - however,

vacancies on the first council and subsequent councils shall be filled from the

membership of various agents represented on the council. It shall consist of

three members who shall be advisory, non-voting, and one of them shall represent

the Department of Education; another shall represent the Social Policy Committee

of the Executive Council, and there shall be another member who is an employee

So the Provincial Government will appoint two non-voting

members; that is the subsequent councils, after the first one. Four members

shall be appointed to the council who shall represent business, industry,

labour, and shall be appointed by the respective organizations and associations.

There shall be one member-at-large, appointed by the council itself, and that

member shall represent the general public. There shall be a member who is a

member of the Council of Colleges, an institution of presidents, which will be

appointed by that organization, and there will be four members who shall

represent the volunteer community-based literacy delivery agencies, and who

shall be appointed by the respective organizations - organizations such as the

Laubach and different organizations make a tremendous contribution to literacy

in this Province, and they will have the right to appoint people.

The executive director of the council, who shall be an

advisory and non-voting executive director member - the executive director will

be a member of the council, of course, he will not be able to vote.

The first chairperson of the council, again, shall be

appointed by the minister; however, subsequently, the chairperson shall be

appointed by a 75 per cent majority of the voting members of the council, and

where no nominee for chairperson is supported by a 75 per cent majority of the

voting members of the council - where we don't get the 75 per cent - then the

minister would have the right to appoint one of the two candidates who received

the highest number of votes on the council. It is highly unlikely that will ever

happen, but in the event there is a deadlock, then the minister would break the

deadlock. Then the act goes on to explain the terms, the length of service and

all of that.

I believe, in introducing this piece of legislation, it will

probably go down in history as certainly one of the better things that has been

done by the Department of Education in the last few years. Illiteracy in this

Province has been a substantial problem. We have been trying for the last 100

years to address it. We have tried a lot of things. I believe that this will

involve all the different agencies out there, agencies of government and

non-government. It will evolve into an organized attack on illiteracy. I

certainly believe that this will be a council that will be around for a good

many years, and I hope that this council will work itself out of a job as

quickly as it possibly can.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Waterford -

Kenmount.

MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, I want to offer a few comments

on the bill that is before the House, Bill 28, "An Act Respecting The Literacy

Development Council of Newfoundland and Labrador".

Mr. Speaker, the objective of this bill is quite commendable.

In fact, as the minister has just said, it is a bill that will, if it is

implemented in the way it is written, and the program is carried forward with

the intend that the minister has said, has the potential to do great service for

so many Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who today suffer the problems

associated with illiteracy.

Mr. Speaker, the legislation attempts to respond to, and to

assess, the literacy needs of the people of the Province, and it seeks to advice

and support if the communities, community agencies, private citizens, and

corporations in an attempt to assure that quality literacy programs are

developed, that they are implemented, evaluated for effectiveness, and

appropriately co-ordinated with all other educational agencies.

Now, Mr. Speaker, the minister in his opening comments drew

reference to the co-ordination. It is correct to say that there are a number of

government departments that are concerned with the literacy needs of

Newfoundlanders and Labradorians. Certainly, his department is, and so is the

Department of social services, but other departments are concerned as well; the

Department of Justice as it effects the penal system, for example. There is a

great challenge in our penal system with problems associated with illiteracy. If

you look at the educational standards of those people, the majority in penal

institutions are people who have great literacy needs and for whom opportunities

aren't always available.

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to say that we support any

attempts by the ministry to implement interdepartmental co-operation. It says in

Section 4, that they are going to implement and institute a strategic provincial

plan. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is something that is good to hear. This is a good

strategy, it certainly is commendable and it is something that is somewhat

overdue.

Mr. Speaker, the bill recognizes the need for governments of

all levels to promote and foster an understanding of the literacy needs of the

citizens and to implement strategic steps towards the development of a

provincial plan.

I was also noting, and want to comment on,

Section 4 (a), the

last part of it where it says that they are going to utilize the use of

technology. We have to recognize, that in this Province today the difficulties

with literacy often are not solely associated with communities that are a

distance from urban centres. There are a lot of literacy problems in all

communities and at all age levels. However, we have to compliment the government

on the use of their distant education programs. I understand that there are

sixty-six centres now in this Province which have distance education and these

centres are having a dramatic impact on making programs available that might not

otherwise be available, and having them made available with the use of

instruction that would be available in all of the larger centres.

Today with technology we can make available to citizens and

community groups throughout this Province the programs that are developed by the

Department of Education in association with other departments, programs that

will try to address the need for improvement in the quality of education, and

programs that will address the types of educational services that are needed by

so many people in our population.

I am pleased to say that this program recognizes that the

computer age is here. It recognizes the use of audio and visual techniques. It

is along the right line of thinking as far as I am concerned, and as far as my

experience would lead me to believe; and I have read somewhat on technology

education. Certainly this is one of the programs - I said to the minister

before, distance education is a great idea and it is working well.

Now, there is still a lot more we could do. We haven't

finished the mandate, you might say. There is a lot more we could do, a lot of

different programs we can offer. But, Mr. Speaker, these are steps in the right

direction.

I also say to the minister, in saying that, that we should

also be looking at using some of the schools to offer these programs here for

the community. We haven't done enough in this Province yet in community use of

schools. We are way behind other provinces in the community use of schools. Now,

I say that because many school boards and many principals and teachers still

have the idea that schools are for 9:00 a.m. till 3:30 p.m., 4:00 p.m or 5:00

p.m. That is pass; that is out if date. We have to use the schools as a

community base for education every hour today that we can possibly use it, on

weekends. We have the resources there. They are owned by the people of this

Province.

It has always been a sore point with me as an educator, when

I find that schools are not being used on a Saturday, or when I find that a

gymnasium could be used for a program dealing with adult education, or a program

dealing with some community use. I certainly believe that schools have to become

more integrated into the total community. We can't have the Department of

Education out in some community looking for a place to operate when the

taxpayers of this Province already own a facility. It doesn't make any sense.

Therefore I say to the Minister of Education, in developing

these programs and trying to get them across the Province, that we have to

integrate it as well with our concept of what education is in its totality. We

can't just say we have the day school system, then the building closes down and

we then close the doors, lock it up, teachers go home, and then we say: Nothing

happens here until tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. I say to the minister, do all he can to

make these programs accessible to people, but let's make sure as well that the

buildings are made accessible to people.

I say to the minister that when I was the principal of a

school in Mount Pearl, I think it was the most extensively used school probably

in the region when it comes to community use of the school. I support it because

I think that the school buildings belong to all the taxpayers and they should

have access to them. The day school students first, but let's use it for other

community uses after that.

I also want to comment a little bit on some of the

percentages you hear sometimes. It bothers me sometimes when I hear people talk

about how 44 per cent of the people of this Province are functionally

illiterate. That concerns me, because what they have done is they have taken

Grade IX as the bench mark. They've said: If you have a formal education that is

less than Grade IX then you fall into the category of being functionally

illiterate. If you have more than that then you are not. That is a very

simplistic approach. It doesn't acknowledge informal education, it doesn't

acknowledge many of the people who were our parents. To say to some of our

parents that they were illiterate would be a tremendous insult. To say, for

example, to my father, who is eighty-seven years old that he is illiterate,

well, he would find that to be quite insulting, although his formal education is

Grade III. He ran a business all his life, did quite well, and had a high

priority on education both for himself and for his children. So, sometimes we

have to be very careful with numbers.

My main point really is to say that when we use these kinds

of statistics we often have them interpreted to be somewhat negative to the

school system. While we know that the percentage is indeed 44 per cent - that is

not being disputed; its

interpretation is being disputed - we also have to

remember that if you take the age group of fifty-five years and older, people

who finished their schooling, shall we say, in the early fifties, these people

for the most part, did not finish a high school education; so therefore they

would be categorized as functionally illiterate. However, in the school system

today most students do finish a Grade IX standard of education. That is not to

say that all students who graduate from our school system - I wish I didn't have

to say this, but there are students who graduate from our high school system who

are not sufficiently functional in a literacy sense. It is sad, but that does

occur, in spite of the programs that we have in place for students who are

having learning difficulties.

Mr. Speaker, I want to refer to

section 5, and that is the

part that calls for the council to be registered as a charity for the purpose of

the Income Tax Act. That is indeed commendable, because this will mean that

people like you and I who might want to make a contribution to the literacy

development program of this Province would be able to do so, and we would be

able to get some benefit for ourselves, if that is what we want to do. So the

possibility is there. It will tremendously help fund-raising efforts, and if we

can get people to contribute on that basis then we should encourage it. It is

commendable to have it there, and I trust that when they apply for registration

that they won't have any difficulty. I know that the minister and others will be

supporting that initiative.

I do have some difficulties with

section 6, dealing with the

membership. I subscribe to the premise that eighteen members is an unwieldy

council. Somewhere between seven and eighteen would be a more functional number.

I know the minister has the number put up high, probably to take care of

circumstances, but I would encourage the minister not to appoint eighteen

people. To appoint eighteen people to any kind of a governing body very often

will mean that you have eight or ten who really, really work at it. So I say to

the minister, appoint the eight or ten who are really going to make it work, and

get on with the job. It is better to have eight or ten dedicated volunteers

working diligently to fulfil the mandate than it is to have eighteen who are not

going to have the same kind of commitment. I would like to see the number less

than eighteen because that number doesn't function well, in my experience.

I also have some comments regarding what I don't see here. I

see representation from the Department of Education, the Social Policy Committee

four members from business, industry, labour, a member at large from the public,

and the President of Colleges, but I don't see a guarantee here of some

representation from the real stakeholders, the people who are working with this

kind of a problem from day-to-day. I would like to see, in the council, some of

the people who we are trying to help, in other words, the stakeholders

themselves, some of the people who are functionally illiterate in this Province,

some guarantee that they are going to have some representation on this council.

I say to the minister, in his closing comments, I would like

for him to see if he could address that difficulty. Because if learn anything,

then we have to learn that a made-in-Confederation-Building council or proposal

to attack the illiteracy problem is not necessarily going to be the one that is

going to work. There has to be a sense of ownership. If we could learn from our

years of not talking to the fishermen of Newfoundland about fisheries management

in the Province, or what has happened to the way in which we address the needs

of our native communities, then we would have learned that you can't expect to

have a good functioning council dealing with illiteracy unless you're going to

have a guarantee that the people who you're trying to work with indeed have some

say and some vehicle. They shouldn't have to feel intimated by a bunch of Ph.Ds,

teachers, college presidents or whatever. We should make this literacy council

for the people and make it be developed by the people so that we can address

their needs, not what we perceive their needs to be.

So I'd like to suggest to the government, that you look at

the representation and include in

Section 6 some guarantee that the people who

we're trying to help indeed have some voice in developing the policies that will

be brought forward.

The other point I want to make has to deal with subsection

(5) of

section 6. This is the requirement of 75 per cent to elect a chairperson.

Mr. Speaker, I know of no other body where it would take 75 per cent of the

membership to decide on a chairperson. I've heard tell of two-thirds of the

members and I've heard tell of 60 per cent. What this means is if there are ten

members on the council, eight members have to agree on who the chairperson is

going to be, or if there are eighteen members fifteen of them have to agree.

Now, Mr. Speaker, the probability of that happening is not very good.

So I'd like the minister to think again about this. When I

read it first I said there must be a typo error here. This must be 55 per cent,

50 per cent or whatever. Most places just require a very simple majority or an

absolute majority in some cases. In other words, plurality or an absolute

majority. I ask the minister to think about that because again we want to do

this piece of legislation right. These are technical things but it certainly is

going to have an impact on how it's going to function.

A couple of final comments. I want to look at

section 8,

subsection (2). In

section 8, subsection (2) it says - after saying in

section 1

that the council shall hold at least four meetings in any given year - it says:

The chairperson may call a meeting of the council at any time. Mr. Speaker, I

would like to suggest to the minister that he should have had an expression in

there, `with due notice', because I wouldn't want a situation to arise where a

few people would get control over the council, they would call meetings without

due notice or call meetings at inappropriate times. I've seen that happen in

municipalities before the act is changed to guarantee that the mayor could not

call meetings without due notice.

There were some instances where meetings were called and a

group got together and said: We've got a majority here now. Let's convene a

meeting and go and make some decisions. Well that's not good enough. Everybody

in a council should have a minimum of so many days notice; however, recognizing

that in certain circumstances there has to be provision for emergency action and

emergency responses if things happen that need to be decided in some haste.

Mr. Speaker, I agree with

section 11, the one dealing with

the inclusion of all the employees under the Public Service Pensions Act. The

rest of the sections here are pretty standard provisions. Also I agree with the

manner in which the financial statements will be prepared and the way in which

it would operate at arms length from the ministry.

Mr. Speaker, in concluding, I just want to say that the

challenge of an industry in this Province is tremendous. Regardless of whether

we talk about the stats, whether it's 44 per cent or whether it's 28 per cent,

whether the great majority of the people who are having difficulties are in the

forty-year and over range or whether they are in the age group that would be

younger than that, regardless of what it is, we recognize that the challenge to

the Ministry is to put into place those mechanisms that will help us address the

problem, to coordinate the approach.

The only comment I would have is that back in

section 3(

c) where it says, "to coordinate literacy programs and services in the province,

through the promotion and fostering of" - come down to (ii) - "interdepartmental

cooperation..." Then if you take the word "and" and you go back to your first

clause it says you are going to promote and foster austerity. I just wanted to

point out that I don't want the Ministry to understand that this is a mechanism

whereby we can save money, but a mechanism whereby we can coordinate the use of

money. We can get better and more education for our dollar, which is what we are

talking about, I trust, and a better coordinated approach. So, we are going to

get better opportunities for our citizens on a continuous basis. I hope that ten

years from now we will look back to this day and say that this was the approach

that we were following and it was the right approach.

I commend the Member for Bellevue who I know was very helpful

to the Ministry in developing this piece of legislation. He has a great deal of

experience in adult education and in learning programs for adult learners; very

knowledgeable. I want to commend the minister for instituting this particular

piece of legislation and devising the programs that are here.

With these comments and with the suggestions I've made, I'm

happy to be able to support this piece of legislation.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for Bellevue.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, it is indeed a great pleasure

for me to stand in this hon. House this afternoon and speak to this legislation.

I guess since I was elected to this House five years ago there have been a few

occasions when I've felt very, very proud to be a member of the House of

Assembly.

I remember the first Speech from the Throne of this

government back five years ago. To have a paragraph in the Speech from the

Throne talking about the literacy problem and that this government was committed

to implementing a plan for literacy in this Province, was a very proud moment

for me. The second time was in a Budget speech where we had earmarked specific

money for literacy in this Province.

That is something I spent eighteen years trying to accomplish

as a public servant in this Province and got very little recognition. I found

that if you didn't specifically set out monies for literacy, that it normally

wasn't spent. There had to be money set aside specifically for literacy

programs.

I'm also very, very proud that this legislation has been

brought before the House. In my understanding, it is the first legislation to be

brought to any House of Assembly anywhere in this country. I think the Minister

of Education should be very, very proud this afternoon to speak to this

legislation. We've had various kinds of legislation but we've never had this

kind of legislation brought to any House of Assembly anywhere in this country.

I think we also need to give credit to a number of people.

Some time ago there was a committee appointed of our caucus to look at the whole

issue of literacy. I had the distinct pleasure of chairing this committee, but

the committee was made up of the hon. Member for Fortune - Hermitage, the hon.

Member for Stephenville, and the former Member for St. George's.

First the committee wrote a discussion paper outlining some

of the problems, some of the needs, and the future directions that we thought

literacy programming should take in this Province. Then we consulted with all

the stakeholders, which is very important. We sat down with all the people who

were involved in literacy programs in this Province and we got the feedback. I

and give some credit to the hon. the Member for Kilbride who I think, used to

be, I don't know if he still is, the Vice-President of the Literacy Coalition.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. BARRETT: Used to be. And we consulted extensively

with the Literacy Coalition, Bob Evans, who was the Chairperson at the time, and

Bill Barry, who was the Executive Director. We did a lot of consultation with

this particular group because this group represented most of the literacy groups

that were in the Province.

I am sure that there are people in this Province today who

are very, very proud of this legislation. There are a lot of people over the

years who have put in a lot of time; I think of a Mrs. Day in Garnish,

Newfoundland who was a volunteer with the Laubach literacy movement for many,

many years. As a matter of fact, I got her involved in literacy education some

ten years ago and I am sure that she is very, very proud of this legislation.

There are people who work with the Division of Adult

Education who committed their lives to the promotion and delivery of adult

education in this Province, and who spent a lot of time promoting literacy. It

was only sixteen years ago that you could have a meeting on Merrymeeting Road in

a telephone booth. We have come a long, long way, I can tell you that. There

were only two or three people in this Province crying in the wilderness and, as

a matter of fact, every time the topic was mentioned - and the hon. the Member

for Waterford - Kenmount makes a good point - every time it was mentioned, it

was always the statistics that were attacked and I never did dwell on the

statistics. But if you travel around this Province as much as I did - and I had

the distinct advantage of probably being in 99 per cent of the communities in

Newfoundland and Labrador, and I think that was a great honour and a great

privilege. But when you travel around and you meet people in this Province and

you come across people who had difficulty with reading and writing - I couldn't

care about statistics, as long as there was one, it was important that we have

programs. So forget about the statistics, because the statistics are not

reliable and every time you bring it up, there is always a scapegoat not to do

something and I never did dwell on that.

When I think of other people, as a matter of fact, the son of

a former Speaker of this House of Assembly, his picture is on the wall next to

Mr. Clarke - John R. Courage, `Jack' Courage who was involved with the Division

of Adult Education, he is retired now, after having spent practically all of his

lifetime promoting adult literacy in this Province and did a lot of literacy

training, particularly with the disabled community.

I also think of Roy Batstone from Corner Brook, who later

retired but went on and became the National President of the Laubach Literacy of

Canada, not only made his mark in terms of Newfoundland, but also in terms of

the rest of Canada.

I also think of Bill Shallow, who used to be the Director of

the Division of Adult and Continuing Education; Bill has practically devoted his

life to the promotion of this cause. I also like to think that if there were one

individual - and I am not being political here today, I wouldn't dare be

political.

MS. VERGE: Don't get nasty about former ministers.

MR. BARRETT: No, I am going to praise the former minister

and it is not the Member for Humber East, I say to the member. Actually, there

have been some great ministers and one minister that I have to always say was a

great Minister of Education, and who later was a Speaker of this House, and is

now a Senator representing Newfoundland, a man for whom I have a great deal of

respect, one of the true adult educators in this Province, a man who had a

vision, a man who knew where he was going and knew how to get there. And we did

have some discussions when he was the Minister of Education about this type of

legislation, and I am sure that if he had stayed on as the Minister of

Education, he probably would have implemented it years ago. As a matter of fact,

he used to be the Director of Adult Continuing Education for the Province of

Newfoundland and Labrador and, of course, I refer to a man whom all of us, I

guess, at some time or other now, even, look towards for his wisdom and his

expertise; and he is, of course, Senator Gerry Ottenheimer. We made great

inroads in adult education in this Province when he was Minister of Education. I

am sure if he had stayed on there, he would have implemented this kind of

legislation.

I agree with the Member for Waterford - Kenmount in terms of

the representation on the board, or on the council. I think it is very, very

important that we have representatives of the people, the learners themselves.

As a matter of fact, this Province was renowned for the involvement of the

learners in the educational process. Back years and years ago, I don't know how

many years ago, but we had the first learners' conference in this Province. We

had it at the school over near St. Clare's and we had one hundred and some

learners from around the Province who attended the conference. They told their

story about what it was like not to be able to read or write, or to be

under-educated, and out of that came great leadership, great people who became

leaders in terms of advocacy in this Province.

And there are all kinds of people - I remember at one time

going into a community in this Province, walking into a school and meeting a

gentleman I knew. I asked him what he was doing there. I said, `You are teaching

a business course, are you?' He said, `no'. I said, Well, you are doing a

business course? He said, `no'. I said, `Well, you are doing adult basic

education?' He said, `no'. He said, `I am here learning how to read and write.'

This was a famous businessman who had made millions of dollars. He never did

learn how to read and write but always had people around him who fulfilled that

function. He was retired from his business, and he said, `I am only back here

now so that I can spend my leisure time in learning how to read and write.'

I can stand here and tell you stories of hundreds and

hundreds of people, people who didn't want to let anybody know they were unable

to read and write, for whom we arranged private tutors and people to assist

them. From the Burin Peninsula of Newfoundland to just about every part of this

Province, I had the experience of working with people, and I can assure you of

the satisfaction you get from what these people are able to accomplish. If you

visit another country and you don't speak their language, you know the

difficulty you have, and these people have the same kinds of difficulties trying

to live in the society that we live in.

A lot of these people are community leaders. Believe it or

not, a lot of these people are very articulate, very vocal people involved in

fisheries committees and all kinds of committees in their communities. I often

wonder what would have happened if these people had had a little bit of

education. Just imagine the things they could have done with their lives if they

were able just to read and write. The things they accomplished with the handicap

they had, and then to overcome it and to make fantastic contributions to their

communities and to the Province.

I think the most important part of this legislation is in

Clause 4, subsection (a), to institute a strategic provincial plan for the

Province for literacy programs. I am sure the hon. the Member for Kilbride, when

he speaks, will agree with me, that we have a lot of fantastic programs going on

in this Province, and I don't think there is anybody in this Province today who

can tell you the number of programs and where they are taking place. There are

very few people in this Province who are aware of the kind of programs

available.

There is also a lack of co-ordination of those programs. A

lot of expertise has been lost. I know of one individual with the Central

Newfoundland Community College, Mr. MacDonald, who has developed a lot of

programs, a lot of materials and expertise in that particular area, and there is

no mechanism for sharing that sort of expertise with the rest of the Province.

There is a lot of money being spent and I think the hon. the Member for

Waterford - Kenmount pointed out that it is not the intention of this

legislation to cut back on expenditures in literacy, but I think the intention

of this legislation is to make sure that the money we are spending right now is

spent in the right way. There is a lot of money coming in from the Federal

Government now to the fisheries, the NCARP and all the various programs that are

available. They are all going off on their own tangent, developing their own

programs, when the expertise is already available and it is not necessary to

develop programs all over again.

One of the problems - and the Federal Government, some years

ago -and I have to compliment the Mulroney government. I guess it was seven or

eight years ago they brought in a new agency of government, the Literacy

Secretariat, that did a lot of tremendous work across this country and provided

a lot of money for literacy - not (inaudible). One of the problems of getting

the Federal Government involved in any kind of a program is that - and I've sat

in meetings in Toronto and across this country where representatives from the

various provinces got together - and you always hear Ontario and Quebec saying:

Hands off, we don't want anything to do - we don't want the Federal Government

involved at all. If you are going to be involved, it is going to be in terms of

a national organization, but we don't want you involved in the delivery of

programs, because that is a provincial responsibility.

As a result, the money that was allocated for the Literacy

Secretariat, a lot of it went for research, a lot of it was duplication of

research that was done in the provinces, and the money wasn't well spent. I

would like to see an agreement, and I think that this council can work with the

Federal Government, to ensure that the money that is coming into the Province is

spent wisely. I have to compliment and pay tribute to the Mulroney government in

terms of the things that they did and for taking the initiative. I'm not one of

those politicians who, the only time I get up, is to criticize. I think we have

to recognize the positive things that are happening around us.

I don't think this piece of legislation will make the CBC

news this afternoon. It is too bad. There is probably not even anybody in the

media

section right now. There are a lot of things that happen in this House

that are not very newsworthy that is of very negative form, but I tell you, this

piece of legislation is probably one of the biggest - we said that the Hydro

bill and the power utility bill was one of the best, most important pieces of

legislation. In my mind, this piece of legislation is probably the most

important legislation that will be passed by this House of Assembly this

session, and probably the most important one since Confederation.

Because we are talking about something that will affect the

lives of a great number of people. We are also talking about people who are not

out protesting, they are not out marching on Confederation Building looking for

programs. All these sectors of society, if we are talking about teachers or

talking about all the organizations, they are well organized. They are well

organized in terms of representing their views to government and they normally

get action in terms of the types of programs they want, but these people are not

the people who are banging on the doors. I think we should pay tribute to the

Minister of Education this afternoon.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. BARRETT: If he does something wrong, I'm the first

one to criticize him, as he knows. I think that this was an idea for a long,

long time. One thing about this Minister of Education, no one will ever

criticize him for not taking action.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) not being flexible.

MR. BARRETT: He is very flexible, but there is one thing

about it - if he decides to do something, he runs with it and he will do it.

The other person I would like to pay tribute to in terms of

this legislation, a person who has made it his personal mission since he got

involved in politics a second time around and, of course, I speak of the

Premier. Without his support - and one of the reasons I ran for the Liberal

Party, you probably could say that was my reason for getting involved in

politics. When I met with the Leader of the Opposition at that time and decided

I was going to run for the Liberal Party,we had talked about these general

policies and this kind of legislation. That is one of the reasons I ran for the

Liberal Party. I'm very proud to stand here this afternoon and support this

great, fantastic Liberal legislation. Thank you very much.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Member for St. John's East.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to have a few words to say on this legislation,

and I was listening with interest to the Member for Bellevue discuss, for the

most

part in a non-partisan way, his views on literacy and his commitment to it.

He ended it off in a rather partisan way in calling it Liberal legislation. This

legislation is attempting to promote something that has been a serious flaw in

governmental action in this Province since the time of Confederation. And I say

it was a flaw of the Liberal administration from day one, after Confederation;

to not take on, as a part of the social revolution that was taking place with

Confederation, with the availability for the first time of significant amounts

of monies by way of transfer payments to allow new approaches to programs; to

not adopt, as part of its strategy from day one, a commitment to eradicate

illiteracy in the Province of Newfoundland, the empowerment of each individual

by knowledge of the word and the ability to read and use the word in written

language, in written form - as a part of the empowerment of people to

participate fully in our Province and in the new country of which we became a

part.

I say that because whenever there have been popular

revolutions, if you want to call it that, whether they be in South America or in

Cuba, or in China, the old order is changed, democracy takes hold, in one form

or another, there is always a major effort undertaken by the new empowered

people's government - Nicaragua is a very good example in recent years - to

empower the people through literacy. This wasn't done by the Smallwood regime,

after Confederation.

I remember, my first involvement in the issue of literacy in

a public way, was back in 1976 when I was, at a time, a freelance journalist

doing commentaries on education in Newfoundland. I decided to take a look at the

issue of literacy, and I have to say to the Minister of Education, there was

nobody in government or in university who could tell me, so I could talk about

it, what the literacy rate in Newfoundland was. There was no discussion about

it. I phoned various government officials, the Department of Education, went to

the university, and had to come up with a definition of illiteracy, try and

apply that to what other education statistics people knew about at the time, to

be able to come up with a figure as to what percentage you could use. This is a

benchmark, really, for the rate of functional illiteracy in the Province of

Newfoundland. That was 1976.

We have progressed from there to today, and I commend the

minister for bringing forth the legislation. It is a culmination of an awful lot

of people's efforts, as has been mentioned by previous speakers. I remember, in

the year or so after I first spoke about the issue on radio, it was left pretty

well to the voluntary sector to get involved and to take action. I remember

Teachers on Wheels was one of the first voluntary groups that got involved in

providing, I guess it was sort of more or less a peer-type assistance in

reading. They weren't professionally trained, the teachers of literacy. They

didn't have education degrees or specialities of any kind, but they had a lot of

advocacy skills. They had a lot of commitment and a lot of interest, and I

think, over the years, all sorts of individuals have gotten involved.

Frontier College is another organization that, I guess from

the very early days, played a great role in bringing literacy to working people

in construction camps across the country, railway camps. Frontier College had

trained a lot of people in community development skills and abilities as well.

All of these organizations played their role in putting together what became

known in this Province as a literacy movement almost, the Coalition for

Literacy, all sorts of groups, whether they be the adult education groups which

are officially involved in the process, individual community groups such as the

Rabbittown learners group, which was community-based and did a tremendous job in

bringing mostly women, I say, but women and men, in a particular area of St.

John's, bringing together people around issues of literacy. They did a lot of

other things as well, but they had tremendous success in empowering people to

not only learn to read and write but to, by that process, start taking some

control over their own lives and having other opportunities available to them,

whether through education, employment or even the involvement in creating their

own community organization.

So there has been a tremendous amount of effort made over the

years. I had the pleasure of attending out in Grand Falls last year a provincial

meeting of the Literacy Coalition at the Max Simms camp, where all the literacy

groups from around the Province were involved in a two- or three-day conference.

It was a pleasure to see so many different groups and so much enthusiasm and

advocacy for the idea of literacy and helping others in the community to learn

these skills.

I'm glad to see that all of this effort has coalesced into a

piece of legislation which I hope will be able to continue to further the

commitment to literacy by so many groups and individuals, and now by government.

I recognize that over the last couple of years the government's commitment has

been reiterated on each year, I would say, coming forward to this point.

I do have a couple of concerns and I will voice them for the

record and for the minister. Existing programs that are there through the

community college system, the adult basic education system that is there, they

have highly qualified, highly trained, specialized individuals who have skills

that ought to be - we ought to not lose them. We ought to make sure that those

people are included and continue to provide the services that they are so

capable of providing. There is a great deal of enthusiasm and interest and a lot

to be gained by some of the peer learning exercises that go on, the community

advocacy work that goes on. I think that has contributed to what has been called

a movement. I think we must not forget that there are also professionals who are

already on the staff of community college institutions who are providing the

service, who have dedicated their adult careers to developing these skills and

making sure they are available to people. I would not want to see government's

commitment to literacy be watered down by merely providing a level of funding to

an organization like this.

When the minister started his speech he indicated that he was

creating an arm's length council, organization, to take charge of the activity.

My concern would be that there is a tendency, and perhaps an invitation

sometimes, to pass on the responsibility as well from government to this arm's

length agency and to give the responsibility to them and take it away from

government. I wouldn't want to see that happen. I think that the right

combination is to harness the advocacy groups, the skills and the interests and

the enthusiasm of all of the advocacy groups, provide a vehicle to bring

together the resources from foundations and contributors and other financial

sources, as well as government. I think that is a good thing. I think the

fundamental responsibility to ensure that our people have an adequate level of

literacy skills available to them still rests with government.

The thing we have to remember is that the people we're

talking about here, who fall into the category of being illiterate, are quite

often the result of the failure of the education system itself to meet the needs

of those people. Sometimes it's the failure of the economic system to meet the

needs of those people and to give them the opportunity to obtain the literacy

skills that they need to participate fully in life around them. Sometimes they

are people with learning disabilities who have been unrecognized by the system

on the way through. The system has failed to take into account the particular

needs of some individuals and only in latter years, when they're older, when

they're adults, do they come to realize that what has held them back is not a

lack of intelligence, not a lack of initiative, not a lack of commitment, but in

fact some sort of learning disability recognized by science and by educational

specialist.

So I think we have to recognize that the responsibility

ultimately does rest with government, and I wouldn't want the creation of an

arm's length body to be an excuse for government to default from that

responsibility and say: Well we've given them a certain number of dollars, let

them deal with the problem.

I want to say, Mr. Speaker, in supporting, in principle, the

legislation, I have some quarrel with a number of the sections here. I think

some of them can be resolved by the council itself. Perhaps if the council is up

and running for a little while and they have concerns about the structure, about

the way it's working, the minister, if he is as flexible as his backbenchers

claim he is, I'm sure he would be willing to consider making amendments to the

legislation.

I do see in clause 6, certainly the opportunity for any

number of learners or participants to be involved in the council through

sub-clause 6.4, "additional members, in accordance with the same terms, may be

appointed by the council." Certainly the advocacy groups that are on the council

would very likely be the ones to promote the involvement of the learners in the

council and the councils activities. I would in fact prefer that approach to

then having the minister, from his distance, trying to appoint learners in the

system when the advocacy groups, the unions or the agencies that are community

based and volunteer based, would very likely have closer access to people who

may well be suitable members from the learner group to participate in the

council.

So I welcome the governments effort here, but I have to put

forth these notes of caution. Hopefully the minister, when he closes debate,

will address some of them and make it clear that this is not intended, and is

not going to happen, while he's minister, that the responsibility is going to be

sloughed off on somebody else and government is going to back away from it.

I look forward to seeing how well the council is able to

accept a mandate here and to work with the various groups to engage the problem

and try and get as close as we can to complete and full literacy in the

Province.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Education. If he

speaks now he will conclude the debate.

MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to thank hon. members who

took

part in this debate. There have been some excellent suggestions made. There

has been a lot of credit and praise which I certainly welcome. There have been

also some notes of caution expressed which I will attempt to deal with in a - I

don't want to prolong this too much.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member for Waterford - Kenmount made

reference to a use of distance education, and I certainly would accept his

thoughts on that; they were excellent. Reality is, Mr Speaker, we could put a

school on the moon for one student. It can be a viable school, it would be

expensive but it can be done. If we can put a school on the moon we can

certainly put a school on the Grey Islands and we could put a school in the rest

of this Province.

The hon. Member for Waterford - Kenmount spoke about the

community use of schools, and that's an excellent point. He will know that this

administration has been trying to push that. Now I almost get the impression

that in the last years we have almost stepped backward.

I remember when I was a boy growing up that the schools

seemed to be used an awful lot more for -

MR. TOBIN: Did you grow up?

MR. DECKER: When I was a boy. I can delete the growing up

if that is causing a problem.

MR. ROBERTS: Chris, you're doing well, just quit while

you are ahead.

MR. DECKER: When I was a boy, Mr. Speaker, I remember the

school was used for community purposes a lot more than it is now or that is the

way it seemed to me; maybe I am wrong. The hon. Member for Waterford - Kenmount

is quite right when he talks about that.

In keeping with that community use, I have to take issue with

the Member for St. John's East - and I want to do this as kindly as I can - when

he suggests that just after Confederation there was not much attention paid to

the illiteracy problem. I don't know if the hon. member is that much younger

than myself or not, but I can tell him that just after Confederation there was a

substantial attack on illiteracy.

The Adult Education Program was quite prevalent in the '50s,

again when I was a boy. I won't say when I grew up, I will say when I was a boy.

I remember Dr. Florence O'Neil, who was an institute on adult education in this

Province and she had a very active program going which reached all over the

Province.

I remember the hon. Member for Waterford - Kenmount spoke

about his father. My father went from Grade V to Grade XI under the program

which was put in place which Dr. Florence O'Neil administered. So there was a

substantial attack on adult illiteracy. The hon. member would have to recognize

that we did make some substantial attacks on illiteracy in this Province

starting with the Memorial University on Parade Street into which the Smallwood

administration poured millions and millions and millions of dollars. I can

remember the program to build schools throughout this Province which the

government had.

So I don't think it is right to just brush it off and say

just after Confederation that we totally ignored illiteracy. The attack that was

put on illiteracy in this Province by the Smallwood adminstration was

unsurpassed in the Dominion of Canada, probably unsurpassed in the whole of

North America. The attack was there and I don't think we can write it off that

easily.

The Member for Waterford - Kenmount makes the point about the

75 per cent requirement for the council. Now remember the people who serve on

this council are going to be from all different organizations, and we thought

that the chairperson of that council would have to have the full support of all

members. That's why we put it at seventy-five, but I am quite prepared to

consider sixty-six or whatever, but we want to make sure that the chairperson

does have support. In my experience, with any committee or board on which I have

served, usually when a person is elected as chairman, the loser or the runner-up

will move that it be made unanimous. So more often that not it is 100 per cent

as opposed to just 60 per cent. My mind is open on that, but the intent was to

make sure that the person who is there is not hamstrung, but that he or she has

full support -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. DECKER: We don't intend to appoint. We would only

interfere if there were a problem, and that certainly would not be done.

MR. SULLIVAN: (Inaudible) you don't get 75 per cent.

MR. DECKER: Yes, if there was a deadlock and someone

didn't have 75 per cent, then the minister would have the right to break the

deadlock. I would like the hon. member to think about it before we start any

amendments on this because it is extremely important that the person have full

support of the membership of that council.

The Member for St. John's East also spoke about the existing

programs in the community colleges and so on. We don't intend to in any way

abolish these programs. We recognize that there is a place for community

colleges, there is a place for the professional teacher, and this legislation is

not in any way interfering with that.

The arm's length from government: The hon. member is

concerned because we are going to be shrugging our responsibility off to an

arm's length committee. I would suggest, had we not made it arm's length, the

hon. member probably would have been up complaining because there is too much

government interference. So where do you draw the line?

The hon. member will know, I think it is on page 10 of the

bill, clause 20: `The council shall, not later than June 30 in each calendar

year, submit to the minister a report concerning the work, an audited financial

statement, management letters, and the financial statements referred to shall be

signed by the chairperson.' Even though it is at arm's length, the government is

ultimately responsible for it. So we are trying to strike a balance there where

we can take advantage of people who want to contribute, other levels of

government that want to contribute. We are trying to strike a balance without

having the nose of government stuck into everything, and at the same time have

an operation which we do have some control over.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member for Waterford - Kenmount made

some points about the 40 per cent functionally illiterate, and I would certainly

agree on that. It is a moving target. It used to be Grade VI and now it is up to

Grade IX. But if we are going to talk about the informal education, I would have

to agree with the hon. member that our people are most likely second to none in

this country, and in most cases they are illiterate, especially the older

people, because they did not have the opportunity. That doesn't explain the

functional illiteracy we find with people who are coming out of Grade XII today,

but that is a totally different problem.

With these few comments, Mr. Speaker, I would move second

reading.

On motion, a bill, "An Act Respecting The Literacy

Development Council Of Newfoundland And Labrador," read a second time, ordered

referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 28)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Government House Leader.

MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, would you be good enough,

please, to call Order 15, Bill No. 24.

Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act Respecting

Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services Limited". (Bill No. 24)

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance.

MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

This is a bill to facilitate the sale of Newfoundland and

Labrador Computer Services. This process should be finished before the House

comes back in session in the fall. As a matter of fact, we would like to see a

successful conclusion before the end of June, but it may, in fact, go into July.

This is a very necessary bill with regard to that privatization.

What it does is clean up the legislation to allow the

privatization to take place, in other words, by deleting references to

Newfoundland and Labrador Computer Services from a number of acts. I will just

go through them very briefly: The Conflict of Interest Act, we want reference to

that company deleted; the Freedom of Information Act; the Government Money

Purchase Pension Plan Act, because after privatization they will have their own

pension plan; the Provincial Preference Act, they will be a private company

operating in a private environment; the Public Service Collective Bargaining

Act, because they presumably will have their own mechanism and they will no

longer be a public service; the Public Tender Act; the Public Sector Restraint

Act, and the Reciprocal Taxation Agreement. These are deletions that we want.

Clause number 10 deals with the fact that no matter which

consortium we reached agreement with in terms of our discussions, we would have

to make some kind of commitment for awhile to continue to use that company to

provide services to government and some of government's agencies. So what we are

saying is that in terms of this sale, and the agreement that comes out of this

sale, the Public Tender Act would not apply to the acquisition of these goods

and services, because that is an integral part of the privatization, that that

company would continu