... PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. FRIDAY, JULY 10, 1981

_...,. ··-- July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3220 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in -the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! -- SD - l MR. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER: A point of privileg~, Mr; Speaker. A point of privilege, the hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, my point of privileae has to do with an

article quoted in today's Daily News and Mr. Speaker, it has to do with a matter that I. raised in Question Period yester~ay.And I am delighted that somebody in the media picked up my line of questioning finally but certainly disappointed that they misinterpreted ·what I was saying. ~he article, Mr. Speaker, the subject is, 'Terra Nova MHA Tom Lush brought up the question of mobility rights for people who live in his district and ,their ability to work at the Upper Salmon hydro project •. Now, first of all, Mr.

Speaker, I was not talking about my own district in respect to mobility rights, I was talking about all of the districts in this Province which are not premitted to 'work on that site. And,secondly, I was not talking about the ability of the people of the Terra Nova district; quite the contrary, I was talking about their rights. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is quite a difference when one is talking about ability .. and talking about rights. I would not want the people of the Terra Nova district to think that I was talking about their abi:lity to work on the Upper Salmon - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Prima facie case. MR.

SPEAKER: -?i:i.I!I.~ __ f,Acie c<;Lse? MR. LUSH: - I was talking about their right, I was talking about they were denied the right to work there and I want to get that straight in the record this morning, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: A prima facie case, Mr. Speaker. 855~

... July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3220 so - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : Yes, that comes as close ~s anything I have ever heard to a prima facie case. However, I think I will have to rule that - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: - it is similar to points of privilege that other members have raised in the past , that the member has taken the opportunity to clarify remarks that were attributed to him in the media. Is that correct? MR .. LUSH: Yes, Mr. Speaker. MR •. SPEAKER,: MR. WINDSOR: MR. SPEAKER: Therefore no prima facLe case. Mr. Speaker. Before I recognize the han. Minister of Development {)ott.

Windsorl.,who has a statement, I understand, I would like to bring to the attention of all han. members that one of the longest serving members of our parliamentary press gall,ery will be leaving us next week on his retirement, and I refer to Bren Walsh of the CBC. Bren was educated here in St. John's at St. . Bonavent .ure College. He worked with the Newfoundland Public Service for seven years, first with the Department of Finance and then with the Vital Statistics 'oivision of the Department of Health.

In the early l9 _4Qs he worked with the Wester n s·ta.r in Corne!!:' Brook and as a freelance journalist for a pe~i~d of .time. He worked as a new reporter with CJON from 19 _51 to 1958 and has been with t.he CBC since 1958 , some twenty-thr ·ee years. In i957 , for that one yea r, Bren , along with Art Harnett and Jim McGrath B5Rn

'~ July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3221 m-1 MR. SPEAKER (Sn1MS): together published a weekly paper called the Newfoundlan:l Weekly. He also covered the National Convention dealing with Confederation as a newsnan and has covered each and every session of the legislature s:i.ru:::e Confederation, first at the Colonial Building an:l then at the Confederation Building. His last day at COC will be iuesday when he will be retiring and I '\Olld like to, on behalf of the rrenbers 1 thank him for his many years of dedicated service and wish he and his wife Lydia much happiness an:l geed health in the years ahead. SCl>IE HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, a:ar! MR. SPEAKER: The oon. the Pranl.er. PREMIER PECKFORD; Mr. Speaker, I canrot allow this opportunity to pass withalt making at least a brief cannent upon Mr. Walsh's retirerent fran this House in a fomal capacity or in an official capacity. The first thing that c~ to mind - I did not krow, Mr.

Speaker, that you were going to do this this rro:ming - l:ut the first thing that came to mini when you mentioned the gentlenan' s name was I remanber one t.irre getting off, I think it was a helicopter or a plane during a campaign we all remanber clearly on this side of the House, and there were about seventy­ five or eighty people near where the helicopter came down an:l when we got off the plane an:l your truly started to shake a feN hands there were quite a few people wtD passed by rre, 'We!lt along and said, '!bW do you do, Mr. walsh?'.

SO I guess that is a good indication of the kind of reputatiotl that the gentleman h3.d in the sense "t:h:tt they ~ew him and he had a fairly high profile as it related to news around the Prov:i.ru:::e. And I think, speaking for this side of . the House - an:l I am sure I speak for hon. rrenbers opposite - that we are losing a very objective, resp:Jnsible reporter frcm the Newfoundland scene. We only hope that toose younger reporters arrl journalists who renain will take their example frcm the \\Ork that Mr. Walsh has done .And perhaps we have rot seen his greatest \\Ork.

I understand that he is in the process of producing a book and we look forward with a great deal of anticipation to its ?Jblication and to what will be contained in there amut our land an:l amut our Province. • SCME HCN. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 8561

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3222 EL - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Leader of the Opp- osition. MR. STIRLING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On this side, I too would like to share with the.Speaker ;:md with the Premier the good wishes for Bren Walsh.

I first came under Bren's scrutiny when I was a city councillor and I found that Bren Walsh is one of those unique people who truly qualifies, in my opinion, as a professional in that Bren could very seriously disagree with either your point of view or your presentation, out it ·never found its way into his news coverage, that he could write a report and give you fair and equal treatment even though he personally would not necessarily agree with your policy or your ~pproach.

And I think you are going to see that in his new book,which I believe is coming out in two volumes and is going to tell the other side of the Confederation story. And I am sure that he would not mind the plug for his two books- or book in two volumes-·)ecause he is going to tell the side from the point of view of what the other alternatives might have been, the Responsible Government alternative and the whole question of how this was brought about.

And it will dig into certain things that have never been brought out and I am ·sure that it will be a very interesting historical point of view and you will see in it, I am sure, some of Bren's personal views . In reference to the fact the Premier mention~q that jact that when he was getting off the plane every­ body was saying,' Oh, look.

There is Bren Walsh, ' that, of course, from the Premier's point of view would be unforgivable,and it is probably an indicat~on of Bren Walsh's good wisdom that for the next year or so he is moving,irnmediately after his retirement, to Arizona so that he does not come under the wrath of being better known than the Premier of the Province because that is 856?

.. July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3222. EL - 2 . MR. STIRLING: not t~lerat~~ in this ·Province at the present time, Mr. Speaker. SO~ HON. MEMBERS: oh, oh! M!{. SP:eAKER (Sinuns) : Order, please! .. MR. STIRLING: I think, Mr. Speaker, in all of the good things that the Premier could have .said about Bren Walsh, the most significa~t thipg that he remembers is that,in the middle of an election campaign, Bren Nalsh was better known than the Premier. Now, Mr. Speaker, whe-n history -recor-ds the contrib­ ution of both,r think that you wi.ll probably find that Bren Walsh will still hold his own with any Premier, including the present Premier, Mr . Speake .r. SOME liON. MEMBERS : Hear. hear~ 856::1

July 10, 1981 , MR. SPEAKER (Simms): MR. WINDSOR: Tape 3223 PK - 1 STATEMENTS .BY MINISTERS The Minister of Development. Mr. Speaker, ·-I have a nwnber of statements to make this morning, very brief ones. First of all 1 I am very pleased to announce today the appointment of Mr. Ivan Palmer to the position of Assistant Deputy Minister of Development in the Department of Development. In this position, Mr. Palmer will be responsible for all promotional activities of the department as well as prospect development, oil and gas services, economic analysis and research.

He will be working closely wi~h the various Development Corporations within the Province and will spearhead government's initiative with respect to research and development. Mr. Palmer has been with the department for over six years and most recently served as Director of Special Projects. In that capacity he has been directly involved with the Labrador Sea and Lake Melville Ice ~~nagement programme and has been a key figure in our dealings with the aluminum industry. Prior to joining the Public Service in 1974, Mr.

Palmer held positions in research and production management with two large Canadian companies with m~jor exposure to the petrochemical industry. Mr. Palmer's will be.effecti~e on July 20, of this year. I would also like to note at this time that Mr. Palmer will be replacing in that position Mr. Pat Duggan,who has tendered his resignation with effect from July 17. I would like to at this time express, on behalf of government, our sincere gratitude fof his service and U564

July 10, 1981 Tape 3223 PK - 2 MR. WINDSOR: dedication during , the past five years and to wish him well for his new career. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear -! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. STIRLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, As always we are pleased to congratulate the promotion of anybody in the Civil Service. We think we have · one of the finest Civil ~ces in Canada, and we congrat'"~ate them, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. WINDSOR: Further statements? The hon. Minister of Development. Mr.

Speaker, it will be recalled that during this current session of the House of Assembly I introduced a bill which gave effect to the amalgamation of the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation and the St. John's Housing Corporation. I am pleased to announce today my colleagues in Cabinet have approved the dissolution of the St. John's Housing Authority and its consolidation with the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation. This legislative action with respect to the St. John's Housing Corporation and executive action as it relates to the St.

John's Housing Authority, together with the repeal of the Corner Brook Housing Corporation Act, will result in a consolidated and uniform approach to housing policy and portfolio management throughout the Province. Mr. Speaker, it is .in mv opin,:hon, fair to state that the multiplicit y of housing authorities, corpor~tions and agencies has caused a great deal of confusion in the public mind as to the responsibility of these various agencies in the deli very of services to the public. It is my expectation and hope that the creation of a single housing agency will resol ve many of these difficulties. t156S

July 10, 1981 Tape 3223 PK - 3 MR. WINDSOR: I should like· to .Jake this opportunity to pay tribute to the present and past'members of the boards of the St. John's Housing Corporation, St. John's Housing Authority, and Corner Brook Housing Corpor~tion. Their knowledge and expertise, coupled with their independent and objective judgment on housing matters generally ·,· have been greatly appreciated by my colleagues in government.

While it will be envisaged that the amalgamation and consolidation of existing housing agen~Les into a single agency will result in temporary dislocation, I can assure hon. members of this House that all employees affected have been guaranteed ,either by way of legislation or Cabinet direction 1 that salaries and benefits shall not be affected by these decisio:qs. In conclusion, Mr.

Speaker, the consolidation of these various housing bodies will bring the total rental housing portfolio of Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation to in excess of 5,500 units, adding the Cowen; Heights and 0 'Leary Industrial Park Development of St. John's Housing Corporation to NLHCs pres ent holdings will bring the total residential land serviced to . date to some 5, 600 units and the total industrial land service to some 440 acres. The total lands now under the land banking programme of the corporation wilL be brought in excess of 9,000 acres. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! . ' MR.

SPEAKER: (Simms): The hon. Leader of the Opposition, about one minutes. 855R

July 10,1981 'l'ape No. 3L24 ah-1 MR.STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, thi~ miqht appear on the surface as a consolidation when in actual fact, Mr.Speaker, I believe that this is a mistake and I believe that the government will come to regret it and the people who are in public housing will c::ome to regret it. Mr. Speaker, I may have a little more knowledge of this than most people again because of my background ·and association with some of the people who are involved with the housing authority.

The people who were administering the housing authority- it was being administered in a truly independent manner.And what will now happen , is that you will see political influence of the worst order coming into the assignment of units in public housing. Public housing, the administration of it should be independent and separate and the Housing Corporation,which has to do with the development of land and sale of lots and some of the other units around might have a common interest, but the Housing Authority,bringing that into the department is not going to do a thing, Mr. Speaker.

It is a mistake, it is going to cause - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Sintr's): Order, please! MR. STIRLING: - all of us a lot of headaches and problems . And, . Mr. Speaker, it is being rushed through, the legislation is not ready 1 and why it is being done in the dying minutes of this sitting I do not understand. Mr. Speaker, it is a move in the wrong direction and it has the same aspects of the rushing into Grade Xll without adequate preparation. It is a headlong rush without proper investigation. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Oh, oh! Order, please!

Further statements? The hon. Mr. Speaker, just by way of a 8567

July 10,1981 Tape No. 3224 ah-2 MR. WINDSOR: comment to correct the hon. gentleman,legislation is not required. It is done by Order-in-Council and it has been well thought out and is already in effect. Mr. Speakerr in an effort to obtain information from people exiting Newfoundland and Labrador concerning their opinions and attitudes about their travel while in the Province, an attitudinal survey was conducted during the Summer of 1980.

The study, which was conducted at six major airports and two major CN ferry terminals 1 was jointly funded by·the Provincial Department of Development and the Federal Department of Regional Economic Expansion under the Tourism Development Subsidiary Agreement. Financial assistance was also obtained under the Canada Employment and Immigration Commission's Summer Youth Employment Programme. I am announcing today the key findings of this survey. Although a wide range of responses were obtained to a wide range of questions in the survey, data gathered can be integrated and summarized under four main headings.

These provide the most pertinent information for tho .se concerned with different aspects of the tourist industry in Newfoundland and Labrador. Under the heading Activities People Like To Participate in While On Vacation affirmative responses included outdoor activities .such as going to the beach, fishing, visiting parks, social activities and visiting historical sites. In response 856A

July 10, 1981 Tape 3225 EC - 1 MR. WINDSOR.: to the .

section entitled Factors 11 ffP.c:tinq __ necisions _T•l'h~Jee_ to vacation, resoondents saw var.;:o+-.i nn Clestinations which were safe places to visit and having a countryside worth exploring, unique local customs, plenty of good accommodations, restaurants and uncrowded vacation areas as being most attractive. When asked about Newfoundland as a Vacation Destination, respondents saw the Province's friendly people, _.atmosphere and culture, historic attractions and surroundings · conduciv~ to camping as being the biggest factors contributing to our Province's vacation appeal.

People also felt they received good overall value for their vacation dollar during their stay in the Province. On the negative side, Mr. Speaker, limited night life, scarcity of good restaurants and the limited number of local events were seen as detracting from our appeal as a vacation destination. Finally, in responding to the

section of the questionnaire on 'I·ravelling in Newfoundland and Labrador, positive observations included park fees are reasonable, travel literature is readily available, restaur~nt food is reasonably priced and transportation to the Province is easy to arrange. Major.factors which are perceived .a!? detracting from the Province's appeal to tourists under this heading were the small number of historic attractions which have been developed to date, scarcity of handicraft shops, poor park facilities in some areas, inferior roads, scarcity of road signs and facilities on the C.N. ferries. U56q

July 10, 1981 Tape 3225 EC - 2 MR. WINDSOR: The main thrust of the survey's findings point towards Newfoundland's major ·vacation appeal being made of its scenery and sites, culture, lifestyle, people, environment, geo9raphy and atmosphere. While people are generally pleased with their stay in the Province because of these factors, they express displeasure over the lack of certain types of infra­ structure. Vacationers generally prefer to see Newfoundland on their own without the help of escort­ type services but demand comfortable accommodations throughout the duration of their stay in the Province.

They are also interested in visiting historical sites and buying local handicrafts and would like to see the Province giving more priority to developing these. It should be noted that many of the weaknesses in Newfoundland and Labrador's ability to provide a satisfying vacation experience are being addressed by the Tourism Development Subsidiary Agreement. A five year development plan is being developed, implemented by DREE andthe Province and cost shared between the federal government and the Province. Advice is also sought from the Canadian Government's Office of Tourism.

The impact of this agreement was only starting to be felt during this survey. One final note of caution with regard to these results is that the respondents mainly consisted of those on family vacations using their own cars, and businessmen on business or combined business­ vacation travel. Participants in group package tour activity are not adequately represented in this survey ~57n

.: July 10, 1981 Tape 3225 EC - 3 MR . ;.TINDSOR: to provid~ . a definitive indication of the developme .nt in particular for this type of tourism activity in our Province . Information on visitor satisfaction from package tour activity will be collected ona modest sc ·ale this year as part of the Tourism regional plan study now underway and being funded by the agreement. Ni th the exception just no -ted 1 it can be stated that g~•crally this survey adequately represen ts the feelings of our visitors about our Province as a vacation destination.

It points out that t.he efforts being made by the Tourism branch of the Department of Development are on balance , accurately di .rected towards capitalizing upon our strength of people, lifestyle , unique historical significance, etc., and reducing or eliminating the 1-1eak.nesse s existing in the quality of our tourism plant manpower training, ·etc. ti511

July 10, 1981, Tape 3226, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Sirnms): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has two minutes. MR. STIRLING: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I believe this is the best indication that this government has absolutely no control over either the House - what is happenin~ - or what is happening in the Province. He~e we have a four page statement on a survey that was done - no conclusions, no nothing - announcing a five year programme that the federal government is now funding - they are trying to find ways to spend the money, way behind the

schedule - and we have a one-minute statement on how they are going to disband the Housing Authority, we have a one­ minute statement from the Minister of the Environemnt (Mr. Andrews) saying we do not know what happened to the environmental spill. We do not have a statement this morning saying what happened to the water bomber that crashed, and what are we going to do about the serious forest fire problem caused by that; we got a government that is interested in wasting time, Mr.

Speaker, we have a government that has business on the Order Paper, still over twenty-seven bills on the Order Paper that need to be looked at, a committee that has not even met on these things and here this morning we get a lecture by the minister, an abusive Ministerial Statement, to give us the results of a survey that was done. MR. HODDER: Trying to make himself look good. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, that is indicative of the kind of stuff that is coming out there this morning. MR. NEARY: You are trying to qet a little mileage, you are trying to get a little mileage for yourself. 857?

July 10, 1981, Tape 3226, Paqe 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Simms): MR. NEARY: You will never make it. MR. STIRLING: Or,der, please! "You will never make it. Mr. -~peaker, ·this same minister comes in and announces that we are going to spend $250,000 to help finance one of the largest corporations - trying to persuade them to come into . this Province - to see whether they can do a feasible study. ·He · does not give us what commitments, he does not give us any of the details, but he gives us four pages of MR. HODDER: Garbage. MR. STIRLING: - gobbledygook that was available to anybody who wanted to go out and pick it up.

Now, Mr. Speaker, that is an indication of the kinds of priorities that this government have: Not a nickle to be spent on provincial parks, not a nickle to be spent on creating anything - MR. SPEAKER: Order! MR. STIRLING: - and they come in and waste the time of this House this morning with a four page statement of nothingness - Mr. Speaker, an aouse of this House, an abuse of the rules, an abuse of the government. They just do not know what they are doing, Mr. Speaker, they have lost all control; they are just sitting out waiting for the day that the House is going to close. Well, Mr.

Speaker, they are going to have to wait a little longer. MR. NEARY: That is right. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: MR. SPEAKER: Social Services. 857::1 Hear, hear! Further statements. Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of

July 10, 1981, Tape 3226, Page 3 -- apb MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, due to the postal strike, emergency arrang~ments have been made to distribute social assistance cheques. Individuals who receive service from the St. John'~ Social Service District Office and who are affected by the strike will be able to pick up their cheques at the District Office, Government Building, Harvey Road - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. HICKEY: MR. STIRLING: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: raised by the hen. the - MR. HICKEY: 9:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m. - MR. SPEAKER: the Leader of the Opposition.

We cannot hear him. _what j,.s that? Speak up. Order, please! Order! I cannot help that. On a point of order, Mr. A point of order has been during the hours of Order~ Order! A point of order, the hon. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, the minister did not have the courtesy to provide a copy of the statement so my colleague who is our spokesman could follow it. Could you ·adjust the sound or get his colleagues to quieten down so that we can at least hear it, since he did no~ have the courtesy of giving us a copy~ MR. HICKEY : The light is on here. MR.

SPEAKER: Well, there is nothing in the rules that says that the minister has to provide a copy, there is nothing in the rules about the quality of the member's voice. I cannot do anything about that. Maybe the sound operator could adjust the microphone. 8574

July 10, 1981, Tape 3226, Page 4 -- apb MR. SPEAKER(Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, individuals serviced by the St . John '5 Office ca .{\ pick up their cheques from 9:00a.m. to 4:00p.m., commencing at 9:00 a.m. Wednesday morning, July · 15, 1981. Individuals serviced by District Offices in areas not ~57~

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3227 IB- 1 MR. HICKEY: affected by the strike rray receive cheques through the · regular postal service. In other areas,cheques rray be picked up at the Social Services District Office serving .their ccmnunity. Appropriate identification must be srown. Iniividuals wlxl are unable to pick up their cheques in person may auth:lrize in writing another person to do so. Such person 111USt ~so smw appropriate identification. MR. ::..t'.t:AKER (SIM-15 ): has about thirty seconds. MR. BENNEITT: The ron. manber for St. Barbe Mr.

Speaker, I w:mld like to say I am pleased that the minister is taking action to make sure that people get their cheques on tim:. Airl I 'lo.Ould like also to add I am sure that !IDSt certainly I shall be back and forth and .if there is anything that I can do to assist in roy district - it is far away; I know probably the minister does have alternate rreans of getting cheques out because the people over there do need SCil1e way of getting their cheques. With the high cost of living and all the rest they certainly need th::Jse cheques.

So I am happy to see that the minister is roaking arran:Jatents to have cheques delivered. If there is anything I can do certainly and anyone else, I am sure ,in the districts_, you will get my co-operation. ORAL OOESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The ron . manber for IaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the ron. the Premier. ~ the ron. the Prenier indicate to the House whether or not the federal government, the !lOst recent offer that was rrade by the Prirre Minister of canada in connection with the offsh:>re, if the federal goverrment rrade this offer at the First Minister's Conference on the constitution that was held in September, 198 0, over the question of jurisdiction, if the Prime Minister offered the coastal provinces to set aside the ownership question and get on with the job and negotiate the other rratters in connection with the offsrore ownership? 'Vblld the ron. e57R

JUly lQ 1 1981 Tape No. 3227 IB-2 MR. NEARY: gentl.E!I:l'ail irrlicate whetbar that offer was made at the First Ministet Is Conferenc;e on the constitution in September,l980? MR. SPEAKER (SIW-18) : The bon,_ the Premier. PREMIER PEX::KFORD: the hen. member is talking about. MR. NEARY: I do not know what offer To se~ as.W.e the c:lWilership. PREMIER PECKFORD: The Prime Minister · is still reflecting on the resp:mse he will provide this goverment to the letter that :J; sent him '!IDfH four or five weeks, I· guess, or ITOre saying that I am prepared to sit down and to discuss the ~le offsrore question.

During_ the constitution - so we do not know if there is an offer or not - they ~e nuances, style, tone in his speech. _ Ani I have examined toth the speeches that the Prime Minister made toth to the llberal dinner that he attended and before COC, the CBC programre. I have the transcripts of toth. But in the spirit of co~peration and reasonableness we have gone the extra mile to try to irrlicate to the federal goverment that we want to see this matter resolved and we are prepared to sit dc:lWil and see ~ther there is that kind of roan to resolve it. During the constitutional discussions last year 1 8577

July 10, 1981 Tape NO. 3228 EL - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: one of the problems we all had was that the Federal Government did not put anything on the table. That was the problem.

Each time it carne ur before the Ministerial rneetings,and then went to committee from the Ministerial meetings,back to the Minist­ erial meetings, back to the committee; the only people to put anything on fue table was Newfoundland and that is why it went back and forth from the Ministers' meetings to the committee meetings because a response from the Federal Goyernrnent was needed in order to take a vote in ·the pubi{c SE;!rvant committee so that then that could be recommended to the ministerial meet­ ing which then could be recommended to the First ~1inisters meeting that was corning up.

So there was never · anything offered, and whether there is something offered now or not, we are still waiting to find out. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms ) : for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplerne~tary, the hon. member Mr. Speaker, I cannot challenge the statement the hon. gentleman just said,but my understanding, Mr. Speaker, is that the Prime Minister, on behalf of the Government of Canada,offered to have the ownership question set aside at that Constitutional Conference and the majority of coastal Provinces would not agree .

And I am asking the han. gentleman now if this Provine~ ~as on~ of the Provinces that disagreed with setting aside the ownership question, getting on with the job and neg­ otiating the other conditions involved in the offshore. And I will mention some of the other things in a supplementary question . MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: The only thing that was suggested at an y of those meetings was the Maritimes Agreement. So, one has to look beyond whether the jurisdiction was going to be laid to one side and put in abeyanc~ you have to look behind 857A

.· -; July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3228 EL - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD : that to see what the follow-through was to doing that. It is no good for us to say we are going to set aside an argument we have in this House to do something else if we do not know what that something else ts. So, you have to look behind the sup erficia~ concilliatory thrust . of putting some ­ thing in abeyance if there is nothing to come after it .

The Province of Nova Scotia, during those meetin~s, went on thei .r own and tried to negotiate an arrangement and that went on for about four or five days and the long and short of it was that they were unable to resolve and oome 'up with an arrangement that was acceptable to both sides . So there was a difference of op ­ inion on how to approach solving the problem. From our point of vi ew, because of the ministerial and public servant meetings all during the Summer, the Federal Government was not prepared to move at all. Nova Scotia felt 857~

.~7'· July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3229 SD - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: for a whole range of reasons 1 not the least of which was that they did not think their case was as good as ours anyway, legally, and because they had a rapport with Mr. Reagan and Mr. MacEachenthat they should try again to negotiate something out. : But they fail~d and broke off negotiations about five or six hours before the end of the constitutional meetings that were held on television. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker Supplementary, the hon. member for Mr.

Speaker, I was hoping to get an pnswer from the hon. gentleman on whether or not the hon. gentleman agreed or disagreed that the ownership question should be set aside, if this Province agreed with that and went on and negotiated the terms and conditions of a settlement of the offshore question. The hon. gentleman did not give me a straight answer.

So let me ask the hon. gentleman this question; the Prime Minister at that same constitutional conference in September,l980, as I understand it, offered a system of administrative arrangements involving bother the federal government and each coastal province whereby the offshore resources could be developed.Now did the hon. gentleman agree with that or disagree with that,or does he now agree with it?

The Prime Minister offered coast~l.provi~ces- first of all, he said, they should get maximum benefits from the offshore resources and accordingly offered a system of administrative arrangements involving joint 'parti ·cipation both by the federal and provincial governments · to develop the offshore resources the hon. gentleman's position on that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. What was PREMIER PECKFORD: I thought I had answered the hon. member when I sai~ that.you have to look behind, putting the other thing in abeyance, and what was offered was the us 19 n

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3229 SD - 2 P·REMIER PECKFORD: offer of the Maritimes agreement, which is as the hon. member descri.bed 1 except for saying it wasofmaximum benefits to the Province; it was not maximum benefits to the Province.

It worked ou-t to federal ownership of oil and gas and everything that goes with it; the administrative arrangements would be a board of federal and provincial - this is nothing new, thi -s was cut back iD 19 77 or 1978 - which was an advisory board and the .l-1inister of Energy in Ottawa still had all the power,so that this joint board had no management power at · all and ·all it · could do was advise the federal Minister of Energy.

The revenue split would be the revenue split that was in existance with ownership residing with the federal government, which would mean 17 Fer cent or 20 per cent for us here in the Province and the remainder split between the federal government and the companies with the majority going to the federal government. So there was nothing new in the proposal at all and all the Prime .. ~~~l~ter said,both in the private meetings and in the public meetings and during the whole Summer, was that •our proposal still stands on the Maritimes agreement' and that was it.

And, of course, that was unacceptable to us so the whole offer of putting something in abeyance, putting the jurisdictional ~hing in abeyance, wasjust an academic question because what lay behind it was still Maritimes agr~ementand we saw nothing in it,· 8581

-..·­,, July 10,1981 Tape No. 3230 ah-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: no sharing of responsibility, no reasonable sharing of revenues between the two levels of government. MR.NEARY: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): member for LaPoile. MR.NEARY: A final supplementary Mr. A final supplementary. The hon. Mr. Speaker, it seems to me that the Prime Minister opened the door at this Constitutional Conference for negotiations. The key to success w~~ negotiations.

For instance - arid the hori. gentleman might care to comment on this- did the Prime Minster suggest that once the ownership question was set aside that the matter of deciding or defining a 'have• Provin .ce, what is meant by a'have'Province, that that would be the subject of negotiations before a technical definition could be given?

And did the Prime Minister also state at that Constitutional Conference~because the Premier and this government have led us to believe that the first time the statement on the offshore was made was at the Liberal banquet when in actual fact the first time it was made was at the Constitutional Conference and the Premier of this Province was aware of it- he also indicated at that constitutional meeting that coastal provinces should receive the same kind of revenue as are derived by provinces from onshore resources until they become a'have'Province, and after that point it would have to share the increasing portion of their revenues with the rest of Canadians, did the Prime Minister make that offer and ask for negotiations to define such terms as'have 1 Province, etc., etc., and was not the key to the whole thing negotiations and have not the government here procrastinated and delayed the resolving of the offshore problems to get productiongoing by not sitting down and bargaining in good faith? 1358?

.· July 10,1981 Tape No. 3230 ah-2 MR. S~EAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: The Prime 'Minister has made a number of political statements before cameras and he has made a number of statements away from the cameras and it is really hard to get a handle on it. ·-That is why I have a letter outstanding to the Prime Minister. But in the actual negotiations themselves or the talks themselves on the constitution the Prime Minister 'emphatically - and every First Minister can vouch for thi~- emphatically said it is the Mariti~es Agreement or nothing and no negotiation.

Now if the Prime Minister had .of said that he was willing to negotiate from that position of the Matitimes Agreement to somewhere more,then obviously we would have had room to sit down,but there was no indication at all. As a matter of fact the indication was clear and unmistakable, Maritimes Agreement or nothing. There was no indication of changing the status of'have' provinces to any great degree except before the cameras. And Nova Scotia proved this 1you see.

Nova Scotia went ahead at the same time and negotiated because they do not have the same legal position as we did and could not reach an agreement, could not reach an agreement any different from the one that we had reachedwiththe federal government three or four years before. It was exactly the same as where we had left off back in ~sa~

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3231 . EL - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: '74 - •7s. -·There was no movement at all, no flexibility at all. But in the spirit of reasonable­ ness, we have gone back to the Prime Mini.ster now and asked him to sit down. So, if the Prime Minister ·in fact in his political statements ·is serious and is sincere, well ~hen write me back and say,'tet ns sit down.' That is al·l he has to say, • Let us sit down. So I am still waiting to get that response back from the Prime Minister now.

But at that time, no, the Maritimes Agree- ment was all of it and that was totally substantiated and valid­ ated by the negotiations Nova Scotia had, be.cause Mr .Hac:cEachen and Mr. Reagan were trying. to bring a resolution to the dispute be­ tween Nova Scotia and the Federal Government and Mr. MacEachen having a fair amount of clout within the.cabinet,in talks with the Prime Minister thought that he could do it that way. And, of course,it did not work out. The other thing that the member foF LaPoile (S. Neary) says, which is completel~-:- and implies is that somehow development has been held up.

Development is not held up at all because of the dispute. Development is not held up at all. Mobil Oil, the operator for the consortium on the Hibernia field,are still doing a number of appraisal wells and they have not applied for a development permit or applied with a development plan. Perhaps they will this Fall, this Winter, or next Spri~g, but to this time they have not because they are not ready to do so becau·se they still have to do some more del­ ineation anc appraisal wells. So that is where'it is.

But we are, as a Province, prepared, given the political statements made by the Prime Minister,to take him on his word, sit down and see whether, as reasonable people, we can agree to a responsible way of dividing up the revenue and managing a very difficult resource which can prove to be the salvation to our financial,economic e5B4

July 10, 1981 PREMIER PECKFORD: next century. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 3231 EL - 2 social and -cultural needs for the A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the member for Mr. Speaker, first of all I want to say that I am not satisfied with the · answers given by the Premier and I will debate this matter during the Late Show on Thursday cominq. But I do have, Mr.

Speaker, I do have here in front of me a reply to a letter that I wrote on March 25th to the Prime Minister,and _I had the reply delivered to me yesterday by hand from the Prime Minister's Office,and the statement con­ tained in this letter do not agree with the statements just made in answers to questions given by the Premier of this Province. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, when I table this, I am going to send this over to the Premier because I feel now that it is an historic document. It is an historic document which should provide - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER 'i MR.

NEARY: neqotiations that could This is debate. Order, please! The hon. member for LaPoile. - the basis of ~ discussion, pf ~58~

.. July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3232 m-1 MR. NEARY: resalve this ITatter. This is a very :important letter and I 'I'.Duld cOnsider it to be a historic document. And I am going to give the Pranier a copy because the contents of this letter do not agree with the -statement just ITade by the mn. the Pranier. Could I have a Page take this across to the Pranier? MR. SPE1\RER (SIMMS): If the mn. member has a supplarentary ,I 'I'.Duld ask him to ask it now •. MR. NEARY: No, I just nerely wanted to make the point that I will be debating it during the rate ShOw. MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PED<E'ORD: MR.

SPEAI<ER: PmrrER Pro<FORD: Oh, yes. That is right. That is right. NJw, Mr. Speaker - The mn. the Pranier. -I reserve the right here-and I will not sit down unless Your Honour orders it- that if the h:ln. :member for IaPoile (Mr. Neary) can stand up and

preamble a supposed question which en:ls up rot· to be a question, then I have the right to respond in due course. And, yt:Xl know, it is a sad cxmteltary on things that the member for IaPoile 'I'.Duld do it this way. The rreth:>dology leaves a lot to be desired. If the federal gove=rent, if this is the way they try to do business well then obviously rot very much is going to get resolved in this country. I guess it is like the silly telegram I received from the DREE minister, pushed into it by the MP for Gander-'I'Wi.llingate tw:J days ag::;, on rroving ll"Oney fran Corner Brook to Gander on an industrial park.

I guess it is like the b.Jsiness of today we will be doing a very historic activity in this Province and we will be swearing in and making official the new Lieutenant-Governor 1 Dr. Paddon, which was an excellent appointment. But the rreth:>dology by which it was done was that this Province was not inforrred about it until after, and here we have the sane thing. I have a letter as the First Minister of this Province on the desk of the Prime Minister 1 whJ is the First tlSBR

July 10, 1981 Tape lb. 3232 IB-2 PREMIER PEX:KFORD: Minister Of Canada 1 and r'DW I have to see sarething insidious care fran t:re OpfositiOn in sc:xre way trying to derrean - sa1E HCN. MEMBERS: MR.

SPEAKER (SIMMS) : PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh, oh! ·­ Order, please! - tryinJ to datean, trying to reduce, somehJw ti:ying to take away the very, v~ strong support that this governrrent has for its position as it relates to the offslDre and hydro transmission a.nd fisheries, the very strong ~ support that this goverment has in the Province on tiose issues, a.nd tre fe:ieral goverment insists in various ways and techniques through these issues to try to sanelDw lessen and derrean a very, very substantial issue for the ~ple of this Province. sa1E HCN. MEM3ERS: Hear, hear! SGlE HCN. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order!

Order! MR. STIRLING: Mr. SFeaJcer, I have a question for the Pranier if he can only get h:irosel.f settle:i down row. He is gone back to his usual outbursts. sa1E HCN. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. STIRLING: He is the only one allowed to set the staroam for ignorance a.nd discourtesy. sa1E HCN. MEMBERS: MR . SPEAKER : has a question? AN HCN. MEMBER : MR. STIRLING: Oh, oh! Order, please! The ron. reader of the Opposition Ib :oot try to copy. I WJUld :oot try to copy the Pranier. Mr. Speaker, the question that I have to ask - SGlE HCN. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! MR.

STIRI.IN;: - the Premier is arising out of that loss of =ntrol in which he fourrl himself last week saying 8587

July 10,1981 Tape No. 3232 IB-3 MR. STIRL]N;: one thing in the House and another thing in Corner Brook. Arrl I ..oUld urge him = ·to get himself un::ler control. One of the other things that tl58A

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3233 SD - 1 MR. STIRLING: he said 'last week and the ques~ion I have for the Premier, -Mr. Speaker, is does he realize the amo~nt of disbelief that he has caused throughout the business community in this Province when he said-that he is quite satisfied with the level of exploration, that it is just about right, he is keeping it under control - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! MR. STIRLING: - and that he does not intend to allow the economy to heat up anymore tha ·n it is at the present? Does the P~emier realize the disbelief?

And in the same way as he corrected his position on Corner Brook, would he now like to correct his position on the exploration and the heating up of the economy dealing with the offshore? MR. HODDER: I will tell you what, the economy of Three Rock Cove is not heated up very hot. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Opposition can try as they like, but this government is committed-and they will not change their v~ew on this- is committed to the gradual development of our offshore oil and gas so that the peopl~ of Newfoundland benefit from it. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear. PREMIER PECKFORD: That is the story, Mr, Speak .er • we are going to develop it and we are going to maximize the .. benefits for this Province for the people of this Province. And as we do that, as Petro-Canada now puts its three or four rigs off Labrador and we have our three or four rigs off the Island 1 we will increase our exploration activity. But I am completely sadden by the fact that the Leader of the Opposition (~r.

Stirling) does not realize that there are thousands of square miles out under exploration permit, thousands of square miles,and under those permits the companies are forced to make certain well commitments, research and ~58~

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3233 SD - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: development commi tmerits, education and training commitments. And the amount of acreage that is out now is not a sell-nut; to put out any more acreage would be,and we do not intend to sell out a lot of our resources so that everybody else in the world benefits from it except us.

And we are not going to do it,and the Liberal Party and the Liberal Opposition can try all they like to drag us back to 0 68 or ''69 and the Upper Churchill, they can try to drag us back to ERCO, th.ey can try to drag us back to how the abused the fishery, they wil"l not succeed in this Province. SOME ' HON. ~: MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms l : the Opposition. MR. STIRLING; Hear, hear. Supplementary, Mr. Speake.i· Supplementary, the hon. Leader of It is very difficult to drag the Premier back prior to 1940 because he is now the arch anti­ Confede~ate that he would have been in 1940. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh.

MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: side of the House SOME HON. MEMBERS; MR. SPEAKER: MR,. 'STIRLING: Order, please! · Mr. Speaker, we have allowed - Oh, oh. Order, please! ~Mr. Speaker, the members on that Oh, . oh. Order, please l· have allowed, at the time that the Premier and the M.i:nister of Mines and Enel:'gy ('Mr. Barry) , had in their possession a letter confirming that the National Energy Board Act would be changed back in December,, they had that in December,and for six months they asked for the cross-Labrador - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh, ~ssn

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3233 so - 3 MR. SPEAKE~ (Simms).: Order, please! MR. MARSHALL: A point of ord.er, Mr. Speaker. MR, . SPEAKER: A poi.nt of order has been· raised by the hon. the President of the Council. -- MR. MARSHALL: The ho.n. Leader ~f the Opposition (Mr. Stirling) is making a speech. Tllis is the Question Period. MR. STIRLING: What did the Premier just do without even a question? MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleasel MR. MARSHALL: I knoW', Mr. Speaker, 'he is smarting under IJ591

July 10, 1981 Tape 3234 EC - l MR. MARSHALL: the answe;r: he received, but the proceedings say he is supposed·to ask questions, not . make speeches. MR. SPEAI<ER (Simms) : Well, I was_presuming the hon. the Leader of the Opposition was using some reference to a letter as a

preamble. I was going to allow him that brief

preamble, but I would ask him to ask his question because there are others who wish to ask some, I believe. Opposition. MR. STIRLING: The hon. the · Leader of the Yes, Mr. Speaker. On the basis of historical information that we get, we find out that the information given by the Premier in a glib statement like he just did 1 he sometimes has to correct later. PREMIERPECKFORD: What is the question. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. STIRLING: The question, Mr. Speaker, is based on the report that was tabled in this House with a great flurry by the Minister of Mines and ~nergy (Mr.

Barry), and it maybe is why the Minister of Mines and Energy is not here for the last week dealing with his bills. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! .. MR. STIRLING: The report indicates a vast distinction betweep exploration and development and it recommends that the exploration be stepped up, considerably stepped up, and the Premier used those same figures in the Governors' Conference. PREMIER PECKF .ORD: MR. SPEAKER: MR. STIRLING: What about the question? Order, please! Is the Premier now rejecting the concept as put forward by the Minister of Mines and Energy 1359?

. I July 10, 1981 Tape 3234 EC - 2 MR. STIRLING -: and as-pu~ . forward by the Premier at the Governors' Conference that the number of jobs in exploration - let us not talk about development, develop­ ment and exploration are two different stages - SOME HON. MEMBERS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : MR. STIRLING: Hear, hear! Oh, oh: Order, ple _ase! - and this should be the policy, Mr. Speaker.

Is the Premier now saying that he is abandoning that position as .. tabled by . the Oil Directorate and as he used in the Governor's Conference of stepped up exploration, increased exploration,but controlled develop­ ment , is he now abandoning it and is he now merging it all together because, in fact, he has lost all control over everything? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Because the Leader of the Opposition asks a question and gets an answer which shows him in a bad light, he should not get desperate and then get sort of personal and try to say that the rremier and the government have lost control of everything. Do not do that because, Mr. Speaker, nobody responds to that kind of comment from a leader in this Province, from the alternative Premier, from the gentleman who is trying to take my chair. Nobody responds to that kind of accusation and the Leader of the Opposition should know that.

It is a.nasty and unfair and something that people do not want to listen to, that kind of nasty comment. Now, as far as the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) goes - talk about nasty - why did not the Leader of the Opposition ask where the Minister of Energy is today rather than get up and make ti58l

. I July 10, 19Sl Tape 3234 EC - 3 PREMIER PECKFOR!,): a snide remark? Where is the Minister of Energy (Mr. Barry),· Mr. Speaker?· He is in Ottawa trying to co-operate with the federal government on energy matters - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear 1 hear! PREMIER PECKFORD: {Inaudible) spea.Jdng with Mr. Lalonde t• That is where the Minister of Energy is, on Her Majesty's business to try to get ~mme co-operation and reasonableness on energy matters for this Province and for this country. NOW, that is where the Minister. of Energy happens to be.

Now, to deal with the substance of the question, comment and speech that the Leader of the Opposition made, let me jlist say that we·wish to increase the amount of exploration ti594

July 10, 1981 Tape 3235 · PK - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: activity gradually,but we are not going to do it on a boom-and­ bust situation. We are dealing with a very explosive, potentially explosive developrne?t, and we want to be careful and we want to be sure we are going to do :it · .right and not lose control of it. And that is the reason why we are saying we increase exploration,but we do it on a· gradual basis, and in doing it that way we both protect our own social and cultural fabric and allow for training and education to occur so that the maximum number of jobs is available to the people of this Province.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. member for Windso~~Bu~. MR. LUSH: Have some jobs for those people just laid off by DOMAC, forty-five of them. MR. FLIGHT: In keeping with the subject we are on, Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier what is his position with regards to the Corne By Chance sale? Does the Premier stand behind the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) and is it his policy and is he prepared to support this policy that no development plans from Mobil will ·be approved unless those development plans includes the reactivation of Corne By Chance? MR. LUSH: DOMAC. MR.

SPEZU<ER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: How many times, Mr. Speaker, I mean we have regulations that,as Minister of Energy three or four years ago,were tabled in this han. House in which we indicate that one of the conditions of permits for development has to be the amount of spin-off that that development will have for the Province directly as it relates to using some or all of that resource, oil or gas, to be processed and developed in this t15SS

·. •.. July 10, 1981 Tape 3235 PK - 2 PREMIER PECKFORD: Province,and obviously the two go hand in hand. The regulations say that, :the Petroleum regulations say that, we have said it from time to time. And in our negotiations with Petro-Canada and other people who wish to use the Corne By Chance oil refinery,that it must be linked to the offshore and to our ability to maximize sPin-off industries for this Province, especially when you have one already existing and does not have to be built. That is a far cry from the way things were done in the past, Mr.

Speaker~ but I suppose that is why we are on this side of the House and the gentlemen are on the other side. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. FLIGHT: MR. SPEAKER (S:imrns): for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member Mr. Speaker, the Premier did not answer the question and he knows he did not answer the question. He is avoiding it, he is skating around it, and he is using weasel words and playing games. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh ! MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order, please! MR.

FLIGHT: So I ask the Premier if he knows that one of the conditions in the letter of intent written by Petrocan in 1980, was if they did not have_a plan to reactivate the Come By Chance oil refinery in place at the date of purchase, the day before yesterday,they would mothball that plant for a period of time. Now would the Premier tell us what period of time we are looking at that they are prepared to mothball that plant? Hibernia will not be available for six or seven years at the best. What period of time is Petro-canada prepared to mothball that plant for? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. ti59R

July 10, 1981 Tape 3235 PK - 3 PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr . Speaker , we are trying diligently,aggressively, every day to ensure that the Come By Chance oil refinery when it opens, opens - MR. FLIGHT: You are doing nothing . PREMIER PECKFORD: - permanently and based upon resources from wherever we can get them . Petro -C anada is now trying to negotiate with Venezuela, with Mexico for a supply of crude and we are not going to open the refinery until we know it is going to be opened and managed for a permanent 1 long -term 8597

July 10,1981 Tape No. 3236 ah-1 PREMIER PECKFORD: time .and not like the Liberal initiative which saw the Come By Chance oil refinery open and then close. When we open things they stay open,and that is the way we are going to do it. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: We are doing it'on the iinerboard mill, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh' MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: That .Liberal white elephant had . to be transformed by a PC administration into a great paper mill. That is what had to be done, Mr.Speaker, a great, great, paper mill. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

PREMIER PECKFORD: And then, Mr. Speaker, 'we took the white elephant at Long Harbour - SOME HON-MEMBERS: Oh, oh' MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: - we took the white elephant at Long Harbour apd saved the consumers of electricity in this Province and the taxpayers $147 million. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR~H -~ What a bluff and a lie. MR. SPEAK ER : The time for Oral Questions has exp ire d . PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR.· GOUDIE: Mr.

Sneaker, I want to present four reports, Auditor General's report. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. GOUDIE: The Newfoundland and Labrador Crop Insurance Agency Reports for 1979 and 1980 1 and the ti59A

July 10,1981 Tape No. 3236 ah-2 MR. GOUDIE: Livestock Owners Compensation Board Reports for 1979 and 1980. MR.SPEAKER (Simms) : Any further reports? The bon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker;-at its inaugural meeting, the recently reconstituted Committee on Privileges .and Elections electea myself as Chairman and the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) as Vice-Chairman.

As Chairman therefore I now ·want to table a report from the Committee, to which there was unanimous agreement by all members of the Cornrnittee 1 concerning the matter recently referred on the point of privilege raised by the hon. member for Port Au Port (Mr. Hodder) concerning the suspension of the bon. member for Carbonear (Mr. Moores). MR. SPEAKER: Any further reports? ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN ~1? .. S!':!:'AKER: The bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, last week the hon. gentleman from Grand Bank (Mr.

Thorns) - he is not in his seat this morning- asked questions pertaining to four companies that were buying fish from fishermen along the Burin Peninsula and refused to supply unemployment insurance ~ts to these fishermen.

As a result of tne action taken by the Departmen~ of Fisheries provincially by means of threatening the companies to take away their licences if . . . they did not comply with ~he regulations of granting unemployment insurance credits -, I am. rr::ki _ pleased to inform the House, and the non. gentleman who is not in his seat right now 1that as a result of our actions the four companies concerned from St. Pierre and Miquelon have now agreed, are now in the process of arranging unemployment insurance credits to the fishermen concerned. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! tl59~

July 10,1981 Tape No . 3236 ah-3 ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Order 31 BiU No. _74. Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Amend The Nel..-foundland And Labrador Hydro Act, 1975, I I (Bill No. 74) MR. SPEAKER (Simms): Debate was adj .ourned yesterday by the hon. Leader of the Opposition who had spoken for about three minutes. MR. STIRLING: bill,and the confusion The bon. Le 1 ader of the Opposition. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This Bs on

July 10, 1981, Tape 3237, Page 1 -- apb MR. STIRLING: caused by this bill yesterday, is an·indication of the inability of this government to manage. And I would like to clarify a point that was made ye~terday, and it is a very important point, and that is that the minister introducing this bill, and it should have been introduced by the Minister of Mines and Energy(Mr. Barry), and it should have been introduced much earlier in the session, Mr. Speaker, the minister introducing the bill, the President of the Council(Mr.

Marshall), assured us that we were talking about granting an increase of something like $50 million, $50 million of an increase to Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. Last night he corrected to say it really is $250 million instead of $50 million. An increase of $250 million instead of $50 million, he corrected it last night. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that indicates- I do not know if.anyone is listening, I do not know if anyone cares, I do not know, late in the Summer, now that Question Period is over whether or not everybody has gone off to get the interviews for the Ministerial Statements, I do not know what is happening in the corridors- but, Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is that this government does not know, they really do not know what is happening with Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. They just do not have a clue.

The President of the Council, in putting through this bill yesterday, did not know whether we were talking about $50 million or $250 million, additional carteblanche that he was giving• Now, Mr. Speaker, municipalities all over this Province applied for little bits and pieces of water and sewer projects, little bits and pieces of giving people a decent quality of water, ~601

July 10, 1981, Tape 3237, Page 2 -- apb MR. STIRLING: decent living conditions, and they were told by this government that we cannot find a way to raise the money, we cannot use any more of our credit, we will only allow you to us.e $37 million of our credit. And, Mr. Speaker, "this morning, not yesterday but this morning, they have now changed from g~anting Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro an additional $50 million of that credit to going to $250 million of tha ·t credit. Mr.

Speaker, $250 million of additional credit has been taken out of this House of Assembly, has been taken away from the Cabinet and given to Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro: Because it has to be guaranteed by the Province. And they are so badly informed, Mr. Speaker, that the Acting Premier here yesterday, and the acting Minister of Mines and EnergyGrr. Marshall) assured me, when I spoke in the few minutes of that debate, that we were only talking about a $50 million increase. Now, does anybody in the Province care?

Have we gotten so used to $10 million, $1 million, $500 million, have we gotten so used to those figures that nobody cares that the Pr .esident of the Council (Mr. Marshall) was so badly prepared in introducing this legislation that he let go intentionally until the end of the session - we are well past the period when the House would normally dGO?

July 10,1981 Tape No. 3238 IB-1 MR. STIRLING: have .adjourned because ~ expected, Mr. Speaker, that the legislation muld be approached in a reasonable and rational manner- and ~ ~e assure:i, oh no, that is just a nornal increase, $200 million to $2?.9 million,only to cane last night and say, 'Oh no, listen, I do not want to misinform you. That really is $250 million. Arrl I do not want you to have the wrong .impression. I want to be fair, tha.t the information that was given to me as I prepare:i it, I really did have that .impression and I checke:i it afterwards but no,your critic was right, it is $250 million' .

Mr. Speaker - MR. CARI'ER: What time (inaudi.Ple)? MR. S'l'IRLIN;: I have fifty-seven minutes or sarething like that. You have got the patien:::e to wait, w: are going to be here for another Ironth or so. I have another appointnent. You see, Mr. Speaker, I thought that in the spirit of co-operation that -.;.,e w:re going to put through some essential bills this Iroming, that w: were going to get ~y fi:an the ministerial garbage and that the House muld likely close in the next couple of days. But n::;w, Mr.

Speaker, it is obvious that this goverment has absolutely no control over the ministers and so I have to serrl my apologies to the Masons wtx> have invi te:i rre to an opening this Irorning, and I intende:i to attend but it is obvious now I carmot attend because w: have to deal with this !l'ajor discrepancy and that I will have to be dealing with this because it is the only opportunity in the debate. So I have to write a note to tell my secretary to apologize to the Masons that I will not be able to attend th;! opening of their project. DR. COLLINS: MR. STIRLING: Were you invite:i to atterxl? Yes, I was. DR.

COLLINS: (Inauli.ble). MR. S'l'IRLIN;: No, not like the usual situation. What is that? The Minister of Finance (Dr. COllins) 1 if he had any control over it nob:xiy fran this side muld ever be invited to anything ~GO~

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3238 m-2 MR.~: J::e::a~ . in his thinking he is part of that split in the cabinet, the cabinet that is so split down the middle between the arch right wing Conservative and the refonn Liberals that straye:l into the.P.C. Party at a time when the opportunity was ripe for them. So, Mr. Speaker, let us get back to the bill. MR. MARSHALL: Ref~ Liberals is a contradiction in tenns. .At the present time I am calling b::>usehold bills and (inauiible). MR. STI~: ··No, Mr. Speaker, -we have lots of time.

We have accepte:l the challenge of the government, the govermrent that really does not care what happens to the business of this House or the business of this Province. Mr.

Speaker, this bill, the Newfouniland and labrador Hydro Act, was being slipped in with a lot of other b::>useb::>ld bills, a lot of other items that -were just going through in a routine rranner, little bits and pieces of fixing up legislation,like the governrrent increasing fees for certain things here fran 0.0 dollars to five dollars, been collecting it for p,.o years illegally because this governrrent did not realize that they do have to come to the House of Assembly. AnJ., Mr. Speaker, the !lOSt illlportant control that this House of Assembly has on the ti604

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3239 EL - 1 MR. STIRLING: qovernment is the control of money. It i~ so important that only the government can introduce a money bill. It is so im­ portant that a private member cannot introduce a money bill. It is so important that an Opposition member .cannot introduce a money bill. It is so important, Mr. Speaker, that only th~ government c~n introduce a money bill. · And this government in­ troduced a money bill in which they made an error, a slight error, mind you, an error of $200 roillion.

They are giving Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, qivinq Newfoundland and Lab- rador Hydro the power .to borrow $250 million in addition to the $200 million they now have, $450 million. Now, what is the total that we are going to borrow for the Province this year? In order for the government to get the right to !SPend that, borrow that $200 million,it must come here to the House of Assembly, must prepare a budget, we debate it for seventy-five hours, the combination of the Budget and the expenditures, the estimates. We debate the government's own bill, own request for $200 million, we debate that.

It has to come before the House of Assernbly,and we are giving a carte hl~nche, carte blanche to the Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, 39Y tQ ~ound- land and Labrador Hydro,' .You go ahead and you can borrow $250 million! In addition, $250 million. Take it out of the hands of the House of Assembly. Take it out of the hands of the House of Assembly altogether.

We have to expect that the government .. brings into this House 1and the minister, the President of the Council (W.Marshall). the man who introduced it.~ pf all the people in the world- h~must be embarrassed to tears that he made a colossal boo-boo of $200 million and gave me the inform­ ation in good faith yesterday. It must be embarrassing to tears for that man who in 1974, 1975 disassociated himself from the ·. 860S

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3239 · EL - 2 MR. STIRLING: government .that had in it his colleague, twelve of his present colleagues headed up by Prem­ ier Moores, had then the Minister Peckford, he was in that government, he disassociated himself nXm a government that did not have ~ight control on its expenditures. At that time he was talking in terms of how the Province was near bankruptcy and .how this authority should not be given to the Cabinet,and how the House of Assembly should be the only one that had the authority to give the kind of spending estimates. Now, Mr.

Speaker, Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro have been given a mandate by this Province-and they have some very competent people. I am not criticizing the competancy or the planning of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. What I am talking about here is a question of prin­ ciple, and the principle is do we trust Newfoundland and Lab­ rador Hydro to give them the authority to do things that we will not trust the government or the Cabinet to do? We require the government and the Cabinet to come into this House and to get approval and to debate. Mr. Speaker, we are creating monsters that we are setting off by themselves.

The oil directorate, the Petroleum Directorate and our own version of Petro-Canada that we are creating, giving them spending authority, allowing them to go and do their own thing 1 because they do not have ,' - '- 860R

July 10, 1981 Tape 3240 EC - 1 MR. STIRLING: to face the House _of Assembl~ the spending of the people • s money, this government ~ , and I cannot believe that the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) who will get up and say, Of __ course, ' This is just routine, Mr. Speaker. We.have that money already committed, it is already spent. Money is going · to be spent on the Upper Salmon, it is going to be spent on transmission, it is going to be spent on Cat Arm. It is already spent.

That is the money that Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro has already had the ·auth9rity to go ahead and spend and we are j~st going through a routiile; __ and the routine, whether it is $50 million or $250 million, what difference does it make?' No doubt the President of the Council is going to become very well informed. Mr. Speaker, I have had to admit to my colleagues surprise that for political reasons, when somebody starts to give an answer from the other side, they act as if they are in a constant political campaign as they see their support slipping away from them.

They are frightened that they are going to go back to the days in the wilderness and they are frightened to death. So every day instead of giving the people the full information - the government has a responsi­ bility to give both sides of a situation, to give all of the-information, to let the people who are paying the bills, the taxpayers, to let them judge. But this government has qotten into the trap that it is okay to give them the political answer, the political information.

Like the Premier who saw nothing wrortg with making a statement here in this House of Assembly that said, 'Does the Leader of the Opposition realize that Corner Brook is not a viable municipality?' That is one statement in this House. Then on a tape, 8607

July 10, 1981 Tape 3240 EC - 2 MR. STIRLING: a -voice t.~pe which was played in Corner Brook, his voice was· heard saying, 'I did not say that Corner Brook was not a viable community.' Well, you see, the President of th~ Council (Mr. Marshall) seems to have fallen into 'the trap of thinking that that is okay now.

When he disassociated him's elf from the Premier of the day and his colleagues in Cabinet,including Premier Peckford and twelve of the others who are there now, when he disassociat~ti himself with that and said the Province was on the verge of bankruptcy and that the House of Assembly should never give up that authority, he was then being a man of principle and integrity and he was stating what he could not live with and he was looked upon as an honourable man.

Now he seems to be taking the position that as long as you put it into a pure political tone, as long as everyone recognizes it as just pure political nonsense, he can get away with the kind of thing that he did here yesterday in which he brought in, in introducing another bill - because the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook), these ministers do not have the courage to face the Opposition in dealing with their own bills. The President of the Council decided that it was alright for him to read that clause and give the credit to the member for Bonavista South (Mr.

Morgan) when he knew as a fact that the people of .Bonavista themselves at that public meeting, and the colleagues .on this side of the House had insisted o:r,t it, that in a speech on that bill I had set it out. And the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Andrews) said that he would intervene. He thought it was alright to brush over all of that and call it a great P.C. reform being brought in by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan). He also thought it was alright, no problem, glossing over the fact that the Public Accounts B60A

July 10, 1981 Tape 3240 EC - 3 l.ffi . STIRLING : Committe~ had found that a member had actually contravened the Public Tendering Act - four from that side, three from this side. And now, Mr. Speaker, this is the ~arne kind of p~oblem that will allow the President of the Coun cil (Mr .Mars hall) to say, 'Oh, it is okay to give Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro $250 million carte blanche .' Now, Mr . Speaker, if they want to raise the financing for the Upper Salmon, they should have to come back through this House of Assembly, because they are using up our credit . This government has got up in this House so many ~60~

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3241 SD - 1 MR. STIRLING: times, they have gotten up in this House so many times and said, 'We have limited resources', and they said to the people throughout the Province, they ha,ve' s~d to -the people in rrn.micipali:t;:;i.e§l that no, you cannot have a water and sewe~ project because we do not h~ve the credit. No, you cannot have a good road because we do not have the credit. You heard my colleague from St. Mary's .- The Capes (Mr. Hancock) tell the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) that they might have to close down a fish plant because the roads were in such a bad state and the Minister of Transportation says, . 'I do not have any money. I cannot use. up the credit, Mr. Speaker, I cannot use up the credit of the Province'. And we have had people on Social Services, we have the example,and we have not heard an answer yet from the Minister of Health (Mr. House) and the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey), when we attended a CNIB function. MR. MARSHALL: Does this relate to the Hydro Bill? MR. STIRLING: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, it relates to the most important aspect of the hydro bill which, if the President of the Council (~r. Marshall) was not the President of the Council, if he were a backbencher or if he were on this side, either this side or that side, the President of the Council would not allow this bill to go through without making the same points and that is that the - we are talkiLg the credit of the Province, we are talkinq about tying up an additional $250 million of the credit of the Province and giving it over to Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro to spend as they will. MR. HOLLETT: That is right. MR.

STIRLING: Now, Mr. Speaker, let me separate out the two because it has to come from somewhere. Where is the minister going to take the credit of the Province?Because ~51 n

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3241 · so - 2 MR. STIRLING: .we were told by the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) that it . would take $90 million of the credit of the Province and it is the same kirid of credit. The municipalities wanted to b'Orrow $90 million in order to put in their water and sewer services, they cut them back to $33 million, they wanted to borrow· more- one hundred-and-something million dollars - they cut them back to $33 million of loans that would be guaranteed by this Province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, we are us~ng th .at same credit now for Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro and we are going to put up, turn over, $250 million to Newfoundland Hydro which they will borrow and which th .e PI:'ovince will guarantee. Now, Mr.

Speaker, let th .ere be no doubt, I am not criticizing Newfoundland Hydro and their personnel and the'competence of their personnel, they may have better personnel and they may have better financial advisors but the truth of the matter is,that we are turning over $250 million because Hydro is going to need it over the next fifteen or eighteen months and they do not like the idea of having to come here and justify it. And .it is passed over. Mr.

Speaker, if that same amount of money could have been given to the people, for example, in Be:J. .l.evue, apd all the districts in Bellevue th .at ar'e looking for I:'oads and looking for water and sewer, they could have borrowed the money and' put it in, put in those benefits the people need. MR. HISCOCK: Pinsent Arm power, Norman Bay, down the Labrador ·do not eve!l hi:rv.e linaucl,i ;blet, MR. STIRLING: All of Labrador, Mr. Speaker, all of Labrador t! 6 '11

O oo July 10,1981 Tape No. 3242 m-1 MR. ST:IRLINJ: has beel1 totally ignored and if it were not o for the federal funds caning into labrador this Province ~uld write it off completel:¥· None of that ooney, Mr. Speaker,has been given 00. Labrador. Mr. Speaker, you can c;p to the St. Barbe area in Newfourrlland, on the Northern Peninsula where, Mr. Speaker, in the district that the membei- for Baie Verte-White Bay (Mr. Rideout) represents, up in the .Roddickton area, have desperate road conditions. He could use sane of thcit credit. Because, Mr.

Speaker, those are the things that the ooney cannot be used for twice. we have been told that we cannot use it. We cannot use that ooney. An:1 now, Mr. Speaker, yesterday we were told that it was only going to be $50 million, Today $250 million. MR. MARSHALL: MR. FLIGHT: o We can explain (inaudible) • You will not be explaining it today, Sir. You will not be explaining it this day. MR. STIRLING: • WO:m you introduced the bill was the tirre to explain it. When you introduced the bill was the tirre for the minister to explain it or the governrrent to explain it. So, Mr.

Speaker, it is the way in which it was done that i.Irlicates that this goverrment has no idea of what Newfoundla.Irl and labrador Hydro is doing. They have referred to the Public Utilities Board, Mr. Speaker, the question of setting consumer rates 1 or the rates for Newfouniland and Labrador Hydro that they sell to a retailer and they in turn sell to the conSUlter. Mr. Speaker, there is a great deal of negotiation going on row. If the Pranier can eventually put it together with Quebec, there will be the sale of sane power to the ·New England States.

Goverment has ab:urloned its :POsition of having it all used in Newfouniland and Labrador, abandoned Iabrador again. What they are now doing is trying to sell to New England. Well, Mr. Speaker, under the present legislation - and we brought it up in this House at the time that the legislation 'laS being changed - the Public Utilities Board does not have the authority to look into what other incane or expenditures that Newfoundland anC. Labrador Hydro has. tJ61/

July 10,1981 Tape No. 3242 IB-2 ~-~: Tre PUblic Utilities Board cannot check into those profits. So, Mr. Speaker, if we made $100 million on sales to the States, at the present ~ the Pllblic Utilities Board could not take that into consideration in setting the CO.Il.SU!ter rates. That is a fact, Mr. Speaker, ItDst ~e do not realize it. But here .in this bill we are giving $200 million extra to Newfoundlard am I.al::!rador Hydro. Newfounlland and labrador Hydl:o owns CE'I.Co.

We are tt>t allowed to find out in this House, they will rot even admit in this House what . it is that is still outstairling am what the cost to the people of Newfoundlam am Labrador is. 'I'he Minister of Mines am Energy (Mr. Bal:ry) in his arrogant manner just sq.ys, 'Oh, we will find out sc:mewhere else. We will rot let you krow' • And this is the place, Mr. speaker, the only place wl"Ere there can be any control on this Jtind of thing. Mr. Speaker, the minister by rrJW should have done his lxlrew:>rk. He should have. done his ~k before he int:roduced the bill ~y, a bill in which-up until row ' . t161:l

-:· .··;, July 10,1981 Tape 3243 PK - 1 MR. STIRLING: Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro has had $200 million as their _ ~e of credit, if you like,without coming back to the Province. They could borrow up to $200 million, guaranteed by the Province. Now.they are looking for an additional $250 million and the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) in introducing it did not even know that is what he was talking about. He thought we were talking about $50 million. Mr.

Speaker, the other myth that has been going on in this Province, the other thing that comes into the same category as the information given in the House different from the information given in Corner Brook by the Premier, ~s that for the last six months the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador, the people of Newfoundland and Labrador have been paying the cost of sending out little household mailers talking about a fair deal, getting a transpor~ation corridor across Quebec for our hydro. Mr.

Speaker, we brought up in the House that was never, never once the request of either this government in their five year plan or Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. But it was nice and simple to sell. ·~n the same way as the Premier got himself in trouble out in Calgary for his comments. he got himself in trouble in Corner Brook. And now, Mr.

Speaker, the people of Newfoundland and Labrador are beginning to realize that in the same way as the loss of the denominational educatio~ syste~, the lost of the Labrador boundary, all of those polit3,.cal emotiona .l things, were all done to play on the emo:tions 1pure politics day by day, and that is in the same context as_ , the Trans-Labrador hydro corridor. Now they are saying, Mr. Speaker, well,that is not want we really wanted, no that is not what we wanted, that is not what we really wanted; that is if you listen to the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) one day, and the Premier another e s 1 4

July 10, 1981 Tape 3243 PK - 2 'MR. STIRLING: day. One day they .are saying, oh yes we can make long-term sales to the United States, committed long-term sales. When the New England governors are around that is what they are talking about,long-ter~ sales. But privately the Premier writes a letter in which he talks in terms of not wanting to see long-term alienation of our hydro sale. That is what he privately writes. Publicly when he is talking to the governors,it is long-term sales.

Publicly, in Newfoundland,he is talking in terms of okay . in Newfoundland we are goinq to develop Newfoundland industry, we are going to develop ~abraaor industry. That is what he is saying one day in the House, the next day in the House he is saying we have a letter of intent to sell to New York. One day irt the House the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) is saying, we want authority for $50 million. The next day he is saying, oh,I am sorry, that was a mistake, $250 million. Just a little mistake, $250 million. That is the inconsistency, Mr. Speaker.

We have the government of a province · w!iich goes every day for the pure politics of it- like they thought '•,. ~ ~· . •' that in Corner Brook, Mr. Speaker, the people in Corner Brook would be the only ones to hear the message that they put on a tape and sent out denying something which the Premier had said here in the House of Assembly, thought they would get away with· --~tout there, pure politics, Mr. Speaker. But the peopl~ are _ beginning to-question. T~ey get up in the House of Assembly and talk about we are not going to overheat the economy.

People al~ over the Province on the verge of bankruptcy, and he is talking about oh we are not overheating the economy. Mr ·. Speaker, there is no question, lJ 6 '1 s :' .......

July 10, 1981, Tape 3244, Page 1 -- apb MR. STIRLING: there is no question they are not going to overheat the economy, the economy here is in such a deep freeze that you would need a blow torch to overheat the economy, to ge .~ it up to zero. MR. FLIGHT: The economy of Buchans Junction is not being overheated by offshore. MR. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance(Dr. Collins) is so delighted to say that this year our Gross National Product is going up because last year it was down 5 per cent. DR. COLLINS: MR. STIRLING: Gross Provincial Product. Gross Provincial Product, yes.

The Gross Provincial Product may be up, but, Mr. Speaker, ~e is not talking about the loss of 5 per cent last year that you have to try to catch up to. And he is still in the never, never land that the Province is in, Mr. Speaker. The Premier gets up this morning and makes a great speech, excellent speech, about equality of rights, developing our resources, our heritage. Now, Mr. Speaker, if we had not heard the same thing for two years we would begin to think,by God, that guy has something to offer. Well, Mr. Speaker, where is it? Where are all those jobs? Where is all the development?

Where is it going to come from? And then we are left in a position on this Hydro Bill where we are asking the Go~ernment of this Province to give $200 million of our credit,carte blanche, over to Newfoundland and Laorador Hydro and they can go ahead and spend it. MR. NEARY: How much, $450 million or $200 million? MR. STIRLING: They had $200 million and they have that spe~t. t16 ·1 R

. •' ····: July 10, ~981, Tape 3244, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Now they are going to give them $200 million more. MR. STIRLING: Now they are going to give them $250 million more. MR. NEARY: MR. STIRLING: justified. MR. FLIGHT: million next year for Cat Arm. MR. STIRLING: T~at is $450 million. And it may all be They will want $300 But it may all be justified, Mr. Speaker. There is no question all of that money may be justified. But the principle that we are talking about, and which the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall} used to be so concerned about, was taking the authority out of this House of Assembly.

Because if we give it to Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, if we give the authority to Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, and we give the credit, who is going to have to pay for it? The person who is going to have to pay for it is the same person who has always had to pay for it in Newfoundland and Labrador, the poor, the working citizen, the borderline guy who pays for everything.

Because he will not get it for his water and ~ewer services, he will not get it for his roads, he will not get it for the fish plant connections, he will not get it for the road construction because the credit of the Province is now up to its limit. And ~he President of the Council is still going on predicting, based on the situation as if it had not changed. Mr. Speaker, we could be, right now, on the verge of the worst fishery that we have ever had in the Province. Right now, from the reports from all over the Province, it looks like the inshore fishery could be a failure this year. But the President ~ 6 •] 7

...... ;} July 10, 1981, Tape 3244, Page 3 -- apb MR. STIRLING: · of the Coun~il goes on with his projections , the same as· he iqnored the fact that the fishermen were on strike two years ago, and at the end of the period he sai~, 'Oh, yes, we were out because that strike that was ongoing, that we could have predicted, yes, that rea~ly happened, and, oh, yes, H61R

r .... .~ July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3245 EL - 1 MR. STIRLING: we are out in our projections'. Mr. Speaker, the biggest problem that we have in this Province,that people are beginning to realize, is that it is not the inte~t that is wrong with this government, this government has a good intent. They intend to do things for the benefit of Newfoundland and Labrador. They cannot help it, ~tr. Speaker, if they do not know what to do with it. They ·know they want the power. They really do want the power. They want the power, for example, over the offshore. They want the power over the forests.

They want the power over the spruce budworm thing. You saw what happ­ ened out in Gander. They have given all of their authority over to the contractor who was doing the spray progr~e. He lost a plane ~load of spray and there is nobody on board, they do no intend to put anybody on board,who works for the govern­ ment or who can tell them anything about it. And that is the kind of control they are exercising. They do not know what to do with the power when ·they get it. That is the problem, Mr. Speaker. It is that this government just does not know how to manage. They cannot manage the House of Assembly.

They cannot manage the economy and they cannot manage the hydro. Because, Mr. Speaker, as was very well said yesterday by the Minister of Development, we do not make deals. There could not be any­ thing truer said by a minister than the Minister of Develop­ ment (N.Windsor) said yesterday.'We do not make deals', because in order to make a deal, Mr. Speaker, there has to be some kind of an agreement.

The governor that was visiting at the Governors Conference ,tried to tell the Province, tried to tell the Premier in the most polite way possible that the great­ est asset that the governors and the Premiers might have would t16 1 ~

... _. J ·.,;.: . July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3245 EL - 2 MR. STIRLING: be their abiiity to wo~k together and to make agreements together. And he was very sorry that the Premier of Quebec was not there. Mr. s.peaker I t .his government has a great failing in that they do not look beyond ~he next curve. They do not look beyond what can be happening as a result of their immediate actions. And let us talk about the transport­ ation of hydro across Quebec. The government's approach has been to say to the Federal Government, force Quebec to give us a corridor.

Now that they have that corridor, they say, well, that is not really what.we wanted. We really wanted the Fed­ eral Government to force Quebec to use their grid system. Now, Mr.

Speaker, some of the facts of life that all of us in Canada had better recognize,and certainly all of us in the Province of Newfoundland had better recognize,and moreso than anybody else this government had better recognize,is that for whatever reason,the people of Quebec elected a separatist government, they elected a separat­ ist government.~nd the Minister of Fisheries(J.Morgan) one day, said, well I believe that they are away from that, until my colleague here from Windsor-Buchans (G.Flight) read him an

article out of a paper that indicated that in their first meet­ ing they reaffirmed their need to separate. Mr. Speaker, I was fortunate enough to be a hpst for.a group of fifty young students from Quebec who are presently visiting Newfoundland. They are learning to speak English, a c::roup of .very in.telligent,articulate, with some difficulties with the language, but articulate in that their ideas they are putting together, they make their points very well. Mr. Speaker, those young people from Quebec are tot­ ally committedto separatism. They are totally committed to t16~n

I ' . . ... • ,1 : .. ).. • ~ ,-. July 10,1981 Tape No. 3246 ah-1 ~1R. STIRLING: . having Labrador separate from Canada _~nd if they are indicative of the thinking in Quebec amongst the· young people, we had better face up to t.he fact that a separate Quebec will be a real possibility withi~ the next ten to twenty years, a very real possibility w~thin the lifetime of all of these projects that we are talking about, Mr. Speaker. \ie are t.1.:i..king about a five to six year construction phase. With the way that this government has delayed thinqs, it may be ten years.

We had better be prepared in th.;.::; Province for the fact that we may be dealing with a. separate Quebec with the transmission of hydro across Quebec. Now, Mr. Speaker, you tell me what authority a federal government is going to have or a national energy board is going to have over a power corridor in a separate Quebec. And, Mr. Speaker, you are going to have to accept the fact that that is a real possibility, in arranging the financing for this project. So, Mr. Speaker, we have a choice.

And I have·urged this government before and would urge Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro,to seriously consider the choice of having a Labrador to Newfoundland to the Atlanti9 Provinces route. It used to be called the Anglo Saxon route and in these days it is now called the Cabot route. But, Mr. Speaker, if we do not have that alternative,this short­ term,stubborn-thinking government may be cursed ten times more than any administration ever was about a long-term contract,if they lock themselves into something in which they have to pass through a separate Quebec. · Mr.

Speaker, force is not going to work, force has never worked long-term successfully anywhere, it is foreign to our nature. A firm position , yes, a firm stand, yes, but force, no. And force is not going to work. Force is not working in Northern Ireland .. They tried force and you see the result of force. You try to force these young IJ621.

July 10,1981 Tape No. 3246 ah-2 Mg. STIRLING: people who are trying to learn safety programmes in th7 Mota~.~ycle Safety Council, you force them off the Confederatiah Building pa.rking lot which is there and they should use it MR. NEARY: It is theirR. MR. STIRLING: It- is theirs. It is their inheritance. You force them away from doing something in a responsible manner and that frustr~tian will finally came aut somewhere else. It has to came aut, Mr. Speaker, because sooner or later right will win out. You cannot force that kind of thing. Mr. Speaker; one of the real problems in dealing with this government - MR.

MARSHALL: (ianudible) MR. STIRLING: Would you like it in a lower tone? Would you like it in a lower tone? Does it sound much better? MR. MARSHALL: Yes, much better. MR. STIRLING: You would then start doing your homework. You would then not bring in ill-prepared legislation. You would then start telling the people the whole story. You would then give them other than the politica~ story. You would start telling them what they real+y should be told and that you do not have the nerve to tell them. MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible) MR. STIRLING: I see. There is only one way that the member would be completely happy, t162?

July 10, 1981 Tape 3247 EC - 1 MR. STIRLING: and everybody knows there is only one way ne would be completely happy. and that is because he is still back in the 1940s. He would like to go back to 1934 as it was prior to Commission of Government, pecause the member's heart- and soul is in his fierce loyalty to an inc .ependent merchant class ·. AN HON. MEMBER: MR. SPEAKER (Bair~ ,) : MR. WARREN: problem. MR. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: bill at hand. MR. STIRLING: That is not very relevant. Order, please! It is very relevan~ to the What is the problem, Mr. 'Speaker? I think we are straying from the Mr.

Speaker, I recognize that the Speaker would like to get this dealt with very strictly, tightly, based on the bill, but they gave all that up this morning, Mr. Sneaker. The government showed how they can- they have no sensitivity to anything, anywhere, and they showed that this morning with their lack of sensitivity in bringing in those garbage Ministerial Statements at a day when their House Leader was attempting to close the House. They showed it in their lack of sensitivity by doing - DR. COLLINS: (Inaudible). MR. STIRLING: Okay. MR. NEARY: 'Leo' will have a £ew. words for you when .he aets back. MR.

STIRLING: The Minister of Finance, (Dr. Collins) I know, will not miss the opportunity to get involved in this. MR . NEARY: If he had his way there would be no House of Assembly at all, you would shut her down and let him run the show. t162~ ·----· _ ..... -...• ,. '"1'· - ••

"1 July 10, 1981 Tape 3247 EC - 2 MR. STIRLING: As a matt.~r of fact ·, Mr. Speaker, I think that the member for LaFoile (Mr. Neary) has put his finger on what is the real problem in this bill. MR. NEARY: not my finger. MR. STIRLING: I nave put my whole hand on it, Maybe his foot on it. The whole problem, Mr. Speaker, is that this government would like not to have to come to the House of Assembly for anything, because it is embarrassing to members on their own side that they have to bring in and look for the authority of this House of Assembly in dealing with money matters. Well, Mr.

Speaker, that is the very reason for the long years of tradition that the government cannot spend money without coming to this House of Assembly. And what they are doing in this bill is they are trying to do by an indirect means what they cannot do by a direct means; they are trying to take the authority from this House of Assembly and give it to Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro is growing so big and . taking on such importance that it may become a complete entity unto itself. I am sure it resents having to come to this House of Assembly and go through this routine.

They do not have to appear anymore in any of the estimates, they do not have to justify anything. And they would like to have - as a matter of fact, this year if this bill is passed, we will have given them the authority to spend more money than we have given the Government of the Province. We have given the authority to the Province to borrow $200-and-something million after long debate and producing a budget, and that we are doing here in this debate this morning. The minister t3624

JuJ.y 10, 1981 Tape 3247 EC - 3 MR. STIRLING : attempte~ _to slip through in the last minutes of this session a bill which may be totally justified but it is the problem of their having lost touch, not having it under coQtrol, not knowing whether it was $50 million or $250 million . That is the problem, Mr. Speaker, that is part of the basic problem in dealing with this gov~rnment. .... MR . MARSHALL:. (I.na .udible) . MR. S'l'IRLING:. . .. Do not ':fF.lt !lung U? on ~that? MR •• ..MARSHALL: ···-(Inaudible). MR . STL'U.ING: I understand that the President of the Council (Mr . Marshall) is embarrassed. He would ~~ke _ ~!_ pass it off and say, 'Do not get hung up on that: ··r t162~

' ~· July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3248 SD - 1 MR. STIRLING: We thought·that we had a few more routine bills to deal with and then that the rest of the bills would be carried over to a Fall session and that we were nearing the close of the House that ob~iously is not the case. Ministers came in with nonsensical statements this morning wasting the time of the House, we have a new Lieutenant-Governor being sworn in this afte~noon,so it is business as ~sual next week. So, Mr. Speaker, in the few minutes that I have left let me sum up what the objections are that I have to this bill.

First of all, I think it indicates the whole lack of management ability and lack of know-how of this Province, of this government, of this PC government, to manage the affairs of this Province. It indicates that they are running things so loosely that they did not know that this bill was a request for $250 million instead of $50 million,yesterday. Now we have a situation in which the credit of the Province is being used for priorities that are not the priorities of the people of the Province. MR. TULK: Shockin~, shocking affair, MR.

STIRLING: ~e.. are proceeding with Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro on a collision course with Quebec, a collision course that can only result in costly delays and niay oe setting ourselves up for a situation which we will be very sorry for ten or twenty years down the road. Mr. Speaker, we hav~ to develop Newf·oundland and Labrador Hydro, the only place that they can expand from this $250 million is with the Lower Churchill Development Corporation.

As a matter of fact, if this government had been on the ball and used the credit that has been offered to them by the Government of Canada, they could have had the Lower Churchill developed, they could have established markets from around the world, we would not be tl62R

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3248 SD - 2 MR. STIRLING: at the stage of talking about one alumimun smelter plant doing a feas'ibility study after they have been in power ten years. We would be having a petro- chemical industry going with Come By Chance. Well,this government does not think big enough, they want all the power and once they get the power they do not know what to do t-ri th it. They are like a dog chasing a car once ne .cat~ _nes it, what is he going to do with it? -· The government is the same way. MR. -TULK: They are trying to :at the car. MR.

STIRLING: They do not know what to do with it once they get it. MR. NEARY: My little Chihuahua _ caught a Volkswagen and took it out and buried it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. TULK: The same thing. MR .. STIRLING: Mr. Speaker, this government has mismanaged this House. ·we have legislation that has been carried over-should have been brought in two years ago that was not brought in. On the Order Paper at the present time, Mr. Speaker, we still have Bill No .. 42, the Urban and Rural Planning Act, which still has not been printed. Mr.

Speaker, it may be that they did not have the nerve to take away the Crown lands from the cit~ of St. John's and then bring them under the Urban and Rural Planning Act. They did not have the nerve to do it this time. Mr. Speaker, we are now down to the ·point where they were slipping through a bill which looked liked sort of a routine increase, increasing by $200 million, $225 million· They did not know that ~627

.;·J ·, .•• ~ July 10, 1981, Tape 4249, Page 1 -- apb MR. STIRLING: they were giving away $200 millio~ additional credit to Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro. And it is the principle that-t believe Newfoundland and Labrador -~ydro, for their capital expenditures, should have to do what the Province does, and that is come to this House of Assembly for approval by project, and this would get . the control back in the Rouse of Assembly, Mr. Speaker.

This government has moved to take away the authority of the municipalities, this government has moved to give more and more authority to the ministers, this government has moved to have the House of Assembly something which they would only have to open to put through some routine legislation and would not have to answer to. That is the whole theory, the whole approach that the government is using. They are, based on the fact that starting with the number one man he has to be boss - MR. NEA RY: Now they will accuse you of filibustering. I will 'ret _you you will hear the President of the Council(Mr.

Marshall) this evening on radio and television saying you are filibustering. Just watch! And nobody will believe a word he says. Everytirne he shows his face on televi -sion we get more votes. He is the best man we got. I wish we could get him on television more often. MR. F LI G HT ~·· I wish we could get him out to rural Newfoundland for awhile. MR. TULK: .MR. SPEAKER(Baird): MR. NEARY: And let him have a look. Order, please! If we could only take him out of the St. John's cocktail set for a little while and get him out in the rural parts of the Province. MR.

STIRLING: I think all those asides were very good, Mr. Speaker. I am sure if the Speaker were not in the Speaker's Chair, he could throw in a tl62R · .

July 10, 1981, Tape. 3249, Page 2 -- apb MR. STIRLING: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. STIRLING: MR. NEARY: few of his own. ilear, hear! As a matter of fact - Who L~- telling who what to do over there? Is he telling the Premier what to do or is the Premier telling him what to do? MR. STIRLING: No, Mr. Speaker, part of the problem that this government has is they ._ MR. FLIGHT: Education(Ms.Verge). MR. STIRLING: o'clock flight. MR. TULK: There go~s the Minister of She has to catch her one Catch the plane now, she is going to catch the plane to go to Corner Brook. MR.

HOLLETT: No, they have the government aircraft warmed up now. MR. STIRLING: I should read for the Minister of Education a headline corning out of the Corner Brook papers. I wonder if the Minister of Education would say that that also is a distortion? MR. NEARY: She is going to have a bad weekend. When the town council gets a hold of her she will have a bad weekend. MR. TULK: MR. STIRLING: She has had a bad two years. Mr.

Speaker, I think that the ·way th "is government is handling this bill is indicative of what people are beginning to be suspicious of all around the Province,in that nobody knows who is really running it. The Premier is very concerned that he is, and then the government ministers all want to give the impression they are. I wonder why it is that on a day when we are giving $200 million spending authority to Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro, that the min ister responsible is not here? Do they think that this is just going to be a routine matter? ~62q

July 10, 1981, Tapes 3249-SQ, Page 3 -- apb DR. COLLINS: q~ audiblel. MR. STIRLING: ~he Minister ·of Finance (Dr. Collins) obviously l).as some kind of wish. When he was a baby he must have flanged his h_~ad against the wall to enjoy the relief when it stopped. Because w~en he asks for the return of the Finance critic,he is askin9 for hilllself to come and get set .UJ;I a9ain. Because every time that he tangles with the 'IIleJt\ber who is the critic on Finance, he comes off not second best- but he can only be a guy who likes to be whipped to pick a fight with - and that applies, I guess, to all of us.

Anybody who picks a fight with the expert who is the critic on Finance, he must enjoy being punished. And he is -~ow being coached by the wit from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) so maybe I will pause to hear - DR. COLLINS: get some sense into the debate. MR. STIRLING: N?, we are just trying to Get some sense into the debat .e? Oh, I see. Well, the Minister of Finance would have ·r -- t163 n

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3251 EL - 1 MR. STIRLING: appreciated a little story that was told by a minister of the cloth at a gathering of a group of visitors and he told it about the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) . But I do not know if I" have the time to tell it and I - DR. COLLINS: I think it would be as germain as your other remarks so why do you not tell it. MR. STIRLING: By leave? '·'ould the Minister of Finance like little one? SOME HON. HEr-1BERS : By leave. MR. STIRLING: According to this minister of the cloth he said that the minister in searching - DR.

COLLINS: This is the best point you are mak- ing in your whole speech. MR. STIRLING: Okay, thank you very much. At least we have gotten through to you. He said apparently, that the Minister of Finance in going around all over the place- this was told by a minister of the cloth so I think it is al­ right ~ gO.~~~ .around to Alberta, he got all the money he could out of Alberta and somebody gave him an idea and he apparently met with a visitor from God who was here on earth and said to him - MR. FLIGHT: I have been here. MR. STIRLING: No, no. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! AN HON. MEMBER: His name was Peckford. MR.

STIRLING: No. DR. COLLINS: Do not spoil the story. He is easily distracted, so do not spoil it. MR. ,S';'1:1':T, T)'rr:;: He said to him, is it true that in nP-aver a cent of money in heaven is worth a million dollars of money here on eart~? tl631

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 325.L EL - 2 DR. COLLINS: Did you say cent or incense? MR. STIRLING: Cent. One cent. Yo~ were talking about sense a minute ago. And the visitor from God said, yes he said, it is true, just like a minute of time - MR. MARSHALL: I have lost"the point now. MR. STIRLING: Well, I know be7ause anything longer than about thirty seconds is about half the member's time span. And he said, yes, just as a minute of time in heaven is worth a million years on earth. So, according to the minister of the cloth - DR. COLLINS: on, I think I heard this one. You need not go further • . I think I heard it. MR.

STIRLING: it. MR. NEARY: MR. STIRLING: that. MR. NEARY: MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER (Baird) : withdrawn. MR. BENNETT: MR. SPEAKER: MR. BENNETT: Okay. That is good. We will save No, give us the pun-ch· !_i!l~(l.!i~udibie): . ~o, -- ~~· He heard it. Let. us forget No, give us the punch .Line. Leave is withdrawn now, Mr. Speaker. I understand that leave has been Mr. Speaker. · The bon. member for St. Barbe. Mr. Speaker, I think it was only yesterday I heard some hon. minister suggest that it takes two to tan~l~.

Noo/, it seems to me, with the legislation that is still oefore the House of Assembly and with the garbage Min­ isterial Statements that are coming into the House of Assembly, that most certainly proof of the pudding is in the eating and it takes two to tangle. Now the only thing that I 1:163?

July 10,1981 Tape lb. 3252 . m-1 MR. BENNEl'I': want -to inform the hon. House is that I want to go lx:!ne for Christnas. I want to go h:::me for the Christmas holidays and apart fran that there is no way that the governrrent, the ministers, the House of Assanbl:y -there is no way, Mr. Speaker, that these bills can go through this Hpuse of Assanbly witlxmt carm:mt. MR. NEARY: Boy, they are ver y·aet-=rinined on this side 1 they are very determined, MR.

BmNE.Tl': In the beginning we saw a lot of, in my opinion~ insignificant bills that were not of such a valuable nature as this particular one ~e before us now, Bill 74, giving Newfoundlarxi and labrador Hydro authority to use up $250 milllion of our Province's credit. I am of the opinion, Mr. Speaker, that the governrrent had hoped that we ~d not debate this bill and that we ~d not debate many others of similar nature. I w:>uld stay and debate this bill, Mr. Speaker, as long as anyl:Gdy else stood on the floor of the House of Assanbly I w:>uld stay and debate this bill in the House of Assanbly.

I think it needs to :b~ air _ed -~-o~ the public and,if we continue to talk about it,urrloubtedly it will get to the people of the Province. The reason, Mr. Speaker, that I want it to get to the people of the Province is because the people are being denied so many other services •vhi.le roney or our guarantees are going for develo~t in other fields. wren people elect a governrrent -\-~hen you are establishing any type of business ycu choose, you select, you employ a wanager. Running a country is a similar vein, is a simi-lar approach. You employ a wanager to run your affairs.

The people employed government to run t_hei:;; ;3-ffairs. Govern!rent is supposed to be wanaganent of this Province, are supposed to be the wanagers. In the ;last ten years we have seen our provin::ial debt escalate. It is nearly $6,000 per capita, for every man, '1'01\ail and child. It has gone past the $3 billion mark. Arrl now we are adding t363~

July 10,1981 Tape~- 3252 IB-2 MR; BENNEIT: to ·tl:)at obligation arother $250 million. We en:Jorse a rote, this geverment endorses a rote on behaJ..f of the people of this Province, their~ guarantee, while they have plunged this Province into eternal debt. I a!II in the middle of read.i.n; a book that _was written r~volving around the depressj,on years, the dirty thirties so--ea.lled.

This govetnrtent, ,M!:', Speaker, ~y flogs ottawa rut if one were to read that book that I a!II in the middle of reading at the nranent,~ \Oll.d understan:i, I am begi:nr)ing ~f to umerstand, .lXl'il fortunate we are to have a stable couri.tzy like Canada that can cane to the rescue and that can help us and can a:xre up with ideas: t3634

___ J..:_.,_ July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3253 SD - 1 MR. BENNETT: in their administration to stave off spiralling inflation, spiralling inflation that the people who live in Newfoundland have to suffer, they find it very difficult to bear up under. I would suggest t~at all hon. persons in the House of Assembly, Mr. Speaker, should read and try to relate these times today with the times that were experienced that I very vaguely remember but some hon. gentlemen do remember,the dirty '30s. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CARTER: MR. NEARY: times are hard times. MR. BENNETT: Hear, hear: Partially caused by Liberal antecedents.

And you will remamber that the Tory Tory times are hard times, I have heard it ever since I have been big enough to hear it. MR. CARTER: Let us hear it for Squires. MR. BENNETT: There is a difference, Mr. Speaker, when one handles money,there is a difference. There are two ways to look at the handling of money, you spend it or you invest it. Now I am not denying that investing in Newfoundland Hydro is not a good investment, but it i? ~ertainly, Mr. Speaker, a long-term investment.

I am of the opinion,and I think most people will agree, that we have a lot of resource that could be of a short-term nature that we could invest $250 million in. I represent a district that must surely be among the most highest unemployed in the Province and ·probably among the highest unemployed in Canada. MR. LUSH: What? Probably? MR. BENNETT : Yes, the district I represent. In the center of the district we have a fishing development, Fishery Products in Port de Choix, and a few years ago that little community was among the highest per capita income in Canada, right in the center of my district.

Still,when you take the rest of that district the average gives you a 863S

July 10, 1981 Tape No. 3253 · so - 2 MR. BENNETT: high unemployment figur~ for that district. Government does not seem to b.e able to get a handle on that type of investment. If only some of these $250 million guarantees could be going into the development o,f fishery onshore~ Everytime we speak about the development of the fishery Mr. Speaker, the goverrunent comes back and they flog the fede .ral authorities. They yell, •we· a:re held up on the offshore licencing. Go and talk to your buddies in Ottawa•, they say.

They do not have the time to talk about the things that are within the .ir own capabilities ~; ha.D.dle. They .do not have time to talk iibout the things that they are responsible for, that could create jobs for people in the Province. Yesterday mo~ing .. I would suggest that probably I g"et as many telephone calls from my district as any member in the House of Assembly.

Yesterday morning the !~rst four calls I had from my district were from young people looking for ernployment,and not necessarily only young people, having called from my district very early in the morning wondering where they can go in Canada t.o get employment knowing full well they cannot get it t363R

July 10, 1981 Tape 3254 EC - 1 MR. BENNETT: in Newfoundland. As a result, I asked for the statistics, I did ask for the employment statistics on emp1oyment in Canada and, of course, again we find Newfoundl~d has the h~ghest unemployment figures for Canada. I would like to suggest that we most certainly have more resource to be developed. We have ample timber that we should be spending some of our $250 million globs of money to develop, let our sawmills get to work and let our pulp industry develop, let our lands get to be developed. All of this is denied our people.

They are not allowed to go and develop any of these things, but still we are allowed to put $250 million- an extra $250 million into Newfoundland Hydro's hands for them to do with and spend just how they see fit. Undoubtedly, Mr. Speaker, Newfoundland Hydro has the expertise to handle this funding probably better than the government does.

I can understand now why Newfoundland Hydro, of course, have the expertise in place that can justify advancing that kind o.f money from creditors, but it is unfortunate that government are, in my opinion, so incapable of handling such funds, it is so unfortunate that government, the people of the Province have to endorse the note; $250 million extra on top of $200 million that has already been guaranteed, and still communities in' rural Newfoundland a~e still not able to have a decent electric service to their communities.

And I am thinking o~ the · small community of ·Ba+r~d Harpour where out of seven families who live there, five of these gentlemen served overseas. Five of these gentlemen who live in Barr-• ·o Harbour served in the armed forces during the Second World War. They carne back and have been tax contributors to the government and voters and good living people, and still this Province does not see fit to provide them with the ~637

"· July 10, 1981 Tape 3254 EC - 2 MR. BENNETT: amenities of life such as a decent hydro system. They are· still down there with an old broken-down diesel engine that they have. to main.,. tain and upkeep themselves and pro~ide fuel for, and they just cannot afford tb run it any more than five hours a day: consequently, they cannot have the services of deep freezes, electric StOVE;!Sr electric heat. These people cannot have this service, still they were prepared to lay down their lives for this country, this Province, these people, this government.

They served years in the·navy and the army and still t~is government cannot find a meagre few dollars to give these people the services they so t363A

July 10,1981 Tape No. 3255 IB-1 MR. BENNEIT: we can find $450 million for justly deserve. But still Newfoundlan:l Hydro. Ani I think, Mr. Speaker, the governrrent sh::>uld take another look, take a secon:l look at some of the priorities that they established. These people who live in Barr 1 d Harl:our are human beings too, they are taxpayers. They are orowinq older. They served in the Second ~rld War, all five gentienen who live there.

Ani this governrrent does oot see fit to give these people the services that they have already paid for through taxation down through the years an:l through the service to their country. we have used up an::,ther $450 rnil;Lion of the · Province 1 s credit while . the govermrent inflicts tax on the backs of people in rural N~oun:llarrl on property. People have already paid to have some of these services provided. In =mmities arourxl rural Newfourrllan:l they have already paid the price an:l still the governrrent inflicts another property tax on people that they have to bear up uroer.

Governrrent pc:l\'ler in use, in action, goverment power, giving the power to inflict tax on people, giving the government the power to advance people 1 s cash, people 1 s ITOney for further expansion of electric hydro while we do without- governrrent power. You know, I am certainly happy that this government cannot encourage ottawa to go to wrld prices on oil where we wuld be paying four dollars a gallon for our gasoline for our cars. we are already overtaxed.

The highest unerplpynent, tPe highest oost of living, the highest provincial debt, the I!OSt inefficient goverrnrent in the history of canada, in my opinion, I!OSt certainly in the history of NewfouOO.lan:l that I rerember, that I k:now anything al:out. And I have a long rrarory, Mr. Speaker. I have a very good rrarory and it goes back very far. It goes back allrost as far as ITOst ron. gentlemen who are in the House. And we all rerrember better tirres. MR. FLIGHI': HoW old are you ·man? MR. BENNEIT: My colleague in front is asking ne ~63q

July 10,1981 Tape No. 3255 IB-2 MR. BENNETT: how . Old I am. I ·was born in ] 926 i£ that is aey c;oruDlation. I said earlier in a ~ in the HollSe of AsSembly that I am certainly not a senior nenber in the House of Assanbly but I am CIIIl:)ng the .senior ~s ...men it cares to :lilem:J a resident of the Province ani kn:Jwing conditions as they have existed ani how they presently exist ani ranenber:ing am~ read an awful lot abJut ~strations and. goveJ::nmen:ts down through the years, and the things I 864n

July 10,1981 Tape No. 3256 ah-1 MR. BENNETT: that were done and things that