VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT ., ... HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, ARPIL 6, 1978 NO. 19 I : ' I r r.

April 6, 1978 Tape 632 EC - 1 The House met at 2:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPF..AKER: Order, please! I am pleased to welcome to the House of Assembly this afternoon seventeen students in the BJRT pro~ramme which is being conducted by the Department of Education in conjunction with Manpower at 77 Bond Street. They are accompanied by their teachers, Mr. Cyril Greeley and Mr. Bill Smith . SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, }fR. SPEAXER: A point of privilege, the hon. member for LaPoile. r-'R. NEARY: So, l{r. Speaker, I want to raise a very iiiTpottant matter. }!R.

SPEAKER: I will hear the hon. gentleman. MR. ~1 EARY: Mr. Speaker, I want to rlraw a matter to the l . ~ attention of the hon. members of the House- and I am sure that the hon. the Government House Leader will approve- and that is, Sir, that P~dio Station VOCM has won another award for its excellent news re~orting. The VOCM news department, Sir, is the winner of the 1977 Atlantic Provinces Community Leadership award. The award is given to a news service for outstanding community involvement and excellence in news reporting.

This time it was one of the subsidiary stations, I think CHCM in ~·arystown, that was chosen because of its influence in setting up an inquiry into the sinking of the trawler, the r.ape Royal. VOCM has won eleven awards, Sir, from the Radio/Television News Directors' Association of Canada, three of which were for community leadership. I want to offer congratulations on behalf of members of this side of the Rouse, Sir, to the VOCM network, especially the Marystown station that was so persistent in bringing about this ~oyal Commission of Inquiry into the Cape Royal sinking. ,. f11S '·

April 6, 1978 Tape 632 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: Bu~ for the persistence of the news staff, Sir, of that station, we would not have had that Royal Commission of Inquiry. And I am sure that the han. members on the opposite side would like to join with me in congratulating the news staff and the management of VOCH on winning their eleventh award, three of which were in community leadership. SOl1E l!ON. HEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.. HICKMAN : Your Honour. !ill. SPEAKER: The hon. the ¥~nister of Justice. ~ill. HICKMAN: Hr.

Speaker, mayi,on behalf of hon. members on this side of the House, join with the hon. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) in extending congratulations to Padio Station CRCM in }!arystown, and I would hope that a letter of congratulations will go to the ~~nager, Mr. Russ Murphy, in Marystown for their community leadership. Their efforts with respect to convincing the Hinister of Transport in Ottawa to establish a Royal Commission - a is very commendable indeed.

I belated Royal Commission of Inquiry into the loss of the Cape Royal For the information of hon. members, Radio Station CHCM's influence carries far beyond the South Coast. The ratings show that they have a very substantial listening audience, particularly amongst former Newfounrllanders,in the Province of Nova Scotia, and I quite frequently visit their station in Marystown at their request. -~d the letters that come in, particularly from Cape Breton, indicate what an influential station for good CHQ~ is. They have an outstanding staff.

They are always interested in the welfare of the Province, particularly so ( the South Coast of our Province ,and even more so the industrial heartland of Eastern Canada, the Burin Peninsula. SOME RON. !IDIBERS: Hear, hear! HR. SPEAKER: Before calling the first routine order, I wish to draw the attention of hen. members pursuant to

Section 29(1) of the Parliamentary Commissioner(Ombudsman's)Act - }111.. ~lEARY: Hear, hear!

April 6, 1978 Tape 632 EC - 3 ~. SPEAKER: - that a letter of transmittal and copies of the third annual report of the Parliamentary Commissioner have been delivered to my office today and will be distributed within the next few minutes. ..

April 6, 1973 Ta;;>e o33 Di~ - 1 PRESENTI~G PETITIO~S HR. SPJ;;AJ.<ER: The non. member for Port au Port. ;m.. dODDER: I beg leave to present a petition on bellalf of the 142 residents of the community of Port au Port West- Aguathuna-Felix Cove. The prayer of the petition is that "Whereas several places on the road through Felix Cove is in a dangerous condition in that it runs by a r1igh cliff and that cliff and the side of the road is crumbling into the sea,and

whereas many of the aangerous parts of tne road are on a hill wnich is slippery in winter and school buses and the general public use the road continously,and

whereas conaitions are such that should a school bus or vehicle slide or hook into this area it would no doubt go over the cliff~ we the undersigned ask the Department of Transportation and Communications to permanently repair through Felix Cove in those places where the road is bad condition and ·.;e feel that temporary repairs are not sufficient in this case~· Mr. Speaker, I think the prayer of the petition just about says it all. The road is a very important road 1 and about two-thirds of the people of the district pass over this road. There is a school very near the

section which is in bad conaition~the Bishop O'Reilly High School,and that is a feeder school for many communities in that particular area and all of those children are bused through that area each day~ This problem arose last year when residents of the area oecame concerned and at t11at time I wired the Hinister of Transportation and Communications and temporary repairs were done to tnat

section on the road,! believe some car wrecks were put down and some gravelRnd one thing and another to bolster up the road, but this is not sufficient because the road needs to be taken in somewhat from the cliff. Me~ers might remember that last year an RCMP car went over the cliff in tnis particular area. I believe they ~<ere answering a call and this was the area. Neither one of them was seriously injur~d but it goes to show, and there have been other cars go over the cliff in this area as well. There are guard rails there but the road has crumbled underneath -t~1e

April o, 19 78 Tape 633 DW - 2 }rR. rlODD~R: guard rails and thece is a whole

section of the road, perhaps for about two miles there,there are areas where the road needs to be moved,but there is one particular

section of road,perhaps 1,000 to 1,500 feet,where definitely the road has to be moved back. I would ask the minister to take heed to this petition and do what- ever necessary to repair that

section of the road and I ask that the peti- tion be tabled and referred to the department to w-hich it relates. l•lR. SPEAKER: Han. member for naie Verte - ~1lite day. MR. RIDf:.OUT: l:'lr. Speaker, I rise to ;;ay a few words in support of the petition so ably presented by my colleague for Port au Port. Mr. Speaker, this must be certainly one of the most reasonable peti- tions that l1ave ever came before this House certainly this session. All petic ions ma:; oe reasona:Ole but this one is dealing with safety aspects as far as the condition of tne highway is concerned. The people point out,rightly so,that tne

section of road refer~ed to is travelled daily by school buses and sa on and that the road has tended to deteriorate and wash aut. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is a very reasonable request nade to, l would hope, a very reasonable minister that this problem be corrected immediately. You know,it is only a couple of miles of road in- volved. _Thepeople are not screaming and bawling about a major reconstruction job ask~ng far pav~ng and anything of that nature•rnev are asking that the safety c:.spects of that particular piece of high,~ay be corrected.

And I think i~ is a very reasonable request.! think it deserves the support of,and I am sure it has the support of every 1aember of this House =d I would hope that the minister would act on it a~d insure that the people of that particu~ar area are providea witn a safe piece of i1ight~ay over which the±!! children can get back and forth to school. A..'i HON. HEHnER: Announce it, 'Bill', announce it. t SOME dOH • HEMBERS ; Hear, Hear! ., . ~"· PRESEtlTING REPORTS BY STAJ DING Al."lD SPECIAL COHMITTE:t;S MR. SPEAKER: non. member for 3urgeo - Bay d' Espoir.

April o, 197<.1 rape 633 Jj'..l - } }ir. Speaker, it is my duty unt!er Standing Order 84(

a) as Chairman of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts to table the ~ ommittee' ~ report to the House for the fiscal period ended March 31, 1976. Members will •recall tl;at I tabled ·tae Committee's first report to the iiouse,the one I have . ~f last year. • t 9 • J

A~Jril 6, 1978 Tape ~To. 534 - l ~lere,on :iay 25th. of last year, t~at docUi!len~ contained nc;t only the Co=ittee's report for the fiscal period ended :!arch 31, 1975 but in addition transcripts of t::e Co=ittee hearings. The report ~•hich I am today tabling does not include the transcript of ~1earings. These have been omitted fro;J t!1e actual report 'oecause of tl:e sheer volume involved and the consequent a.~1kwardness and considerable e:.cpense of inclucling tham in a sin<Ola document. In any evEnt, :rr.

Speaker, t:1e transcri~ts of the individual committee hearings have already been circulated to aembers of the House anti already are part of the Iiouse records. The present report contains a sUEmary of the Co=ittee' s hearings, together Hith its findings and reco=endations to the :louse. ~1embers of the :rouse will be interested to !mm,• that there are approxi1aately thirty to forty separate findings, and a total of t••enty-three reco=endations. All t:t·7enty-three of the reco~endations represent the unanimous view of the Co=ittee, and all but one of the findings represent the unanimous view of the Co~ittee.

TI1e twenty-three reco~endations nay be broken t:o'-m. as follm;s: eleven are directed tO".'ar<ls a departoent of government- five to Finance, three to Public ~~arks, one each to Education, Fisheries and Justice; nine are directed towards gov~rnment involv.ing principally proposals for legislative change, one is directed to ::he Auditcc- Cen'lr:l.l anc! two, 'loth r:-latb.~ to t~e Cor.r.~itte.e' s operation,~rc ~1irectcd to>:·:ard t~c. ~louse's Internal Eco:1.ocy Co:nm.ission~ ~{one of the cventy-t ~ :re2 rcco~n:..!<ltions ~;oulci r~quire action by the .Iouse in the fi=st ir.s~ance, althoug~-:. :"hose reco=eudations to ;,;ovcrru-cent: j?rO?Osing legislation \vould ~lti=~ely of course have to be consitlcred by the ::ouse.

Finally, ::r. Speal:er, I ••ar.t to record tl.e Co=it tee's appreciation to you, }!r. Speaker, to the Auditor General, ::r. ::O'.<lcy, to the ilansard staff, and to -.itnesses •,.,iho appeared before tile Co=ittee for t!1eir help a:1d ca-a.,eration. In particular I <:a."lt

.'.tJril 6, 1973 Tape :7o. GJL~ :~. sr:r:~o:rs: to note the tremendous contri~ution uade Jy the Co1:m1i ttee Clerk, :~r ~ han Pe~ney, ~vho is now retiring from that position. :-Iea::, hear! :r:r.. SI:!:iO~S: As I said, :rr. Penney is retiring from that ~-,osition and ;;~Te certainly wisn hio T.v .. ell in his other endeavours t:1e Clerk of the clause, l:iss Duff. P~rsonally, C:r. Speaker, I want to pay tribute to the Conunittee ;::,embers for their dili;:;ence and their determination to fully examine the matters under investigation.

StJecial recognition is due my Vice-<:hair:aa."l, the we!:lber for Haunt Scio (Dr. 'tlindf'or), who deserves nuch of t!1e credit for the success fo the Conunittee to date. TI1ank you, :rr. Speaker. :lear, hear! ~!I'.. SPZAKER: The han. l1inister of Justice. :!R. :UCICL~: :1r. Speaker, as Minister of Finance, I table the Public Service Pension Regulations, the ~~mbers of the House of .~sembly(Retiring Ablowances)Regul~tions, the Public Service Pensions (Ho!:le C:J.re) ?.egulations. I have two he::e, I do not i;:now "!l.ow they came on my desk but I will table them anyway.

One is I guess on behalf of the ~1inister of Consumer Affairs and the Enviro=ent, The \·las te l!aterial Disposal Area of ~lew \·lorld Island East Regulations, ~,_d T!e Forest ~ire Liability and Compensation Regulations,l977. A.::Sc"'I:.S TO QUESTim;s POll \IHIC:I :;OTICE l:L\S 3EE~l GIVE:~; The bon. :linister of l:ealth. HR. H. COLLINS: Hr.

Sr'eaker, question nui:!:ber seven, in the nn.ne of the han. member for LaPoile C·~r. ~Teary), ~o ask the hon. ;[inister of liealth to lay upon the table of the House the follmdng infor:rration: Since January 1st., 1977, and as of the current date, what is the total - ~ value of amounts which have been paid by the Ne~~foundland Hedical r r Care Commission, as fees or as retainers, in respect of services render~d or to be rendered by legal counsel for or in behalf of

~\pril 6, 1973 1..::~~ : ~o . 634 3 ::R. ~. C~LLI~T S. tor ecch firn of barristers and/or solicitors, t~e total aBou~t ~h3t :-..t!s b~en in c!:..tring t~1e saii1e period. P...nd the ans~vc;r, ~1r. Spe2.1::.er, is th£ p2yne.nts t:o solicitors by t~e 'ie>,;four,dland llec!ical Care Co=ission, Jaauary 1st., 1?77 to da ~"', n::tou:1ts to $535. TI"le total pa;-::te:-.t '·J.:'.S :::o.c!e t:o th e fi~ of S terlinf;, ~.ya:1, P.eid, ~!ells, ~1arri:;.~to:l :i~cl Andrc-: .Js. • r t.

April 6, 1978 Tape 635 (afternoon) PK - 1 Mr. H. Collins: Question No.

B,in the name of the same hon. member: During the fiscal year which began April 1, 1977, and as of the current date, what are the names of those persons who were granted bursary assistance during their years of study of medicine or of dentistry or of fields of specialization ~ithin each of those disciplines who, upon graduation, indicated to government in any manner that they did not intend to honour any undertaking made ~ith goverTiment at the time when such bursary assistance was rendered by which they undertook to repay government for each such person and the names of the schools of medicine or of dentistry that he attended and the total amount of bursary assistance that government had paid to him?

And the answer is, Since April 1, 1977 the number of students under bursary contract for medicine or dentistry training ! who upon graduation indicated that they did not intend to honour ,1 t' their undertakings is none. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. Premier, Sir.

Since the announcement was made in the Budget Speech, and announcements made outside of the House by hon. ministers, especially the President of Treasury Board, that 300 permanent civil servants would lose their jobs in this fiscal year, and in view of the fact that the axe has been hanging over the · heads of all the employees in the public service, and they are tormented and troubled and in deadly fear that their particular jobs may be in jeopardy, and the whole public service is completely demoralized as a result of these announcements, ~ould the hon. the Premier indicate to the House if and when notices of those to be laid off, when these notices will be going out? t . ~ I MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, as I think nas been explained many times, and the same holds tru~ of the teachers situation, a great many of the people when there are X number of people,whether it is

April 6, 1978 Tape 635 (Afternoon) PK - 2 Premier Moores: 200 or 400 or whatever the figure is, are to be laid off, that means in fact that those positions are going to be closed out,but most of that, Sir, is done by attrition; in other words, people retiring the position will not be filled. And what this means is that it is not a matter of laying a great number of people off, it is a matter of hiring less people on. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the han.

President of the Treasury Board in a news release today is quoted as having said .that notices would go out to members of the public service, but that did not necessarily mean they were going to be laid off . Would the han. Premier care to indicate what the President of Treasury Board meant by that double talk? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: The President of Treasury Board can well answer for himself, Mr. Speaker.

But as I understand it, and I can be corrected on this,,if that is the case where a job is necessarily cancelled, where you have some one notified in that job because of the union agreement and because of the association, NAPE and CUPE in some areas, but particularly NAPE, I think, in this area, is where someone is notified they are laid off; in fact, union seniority, and civil service seniority come into play, and these people even though they are out of that job, in fact, come and fill another job, and it is the new people who come on with junior status that in fact are the ones who are not employed rather than the person who may get notice and get reassigned to different positions.

MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the han. Premier indicate to the House if the Treasury Board will go over the list of public servants and eliminate the made jobs, in other words, the political appointees that have been made in the last five or six years, if they will be terminated before . • ' ' ;· i t

April 6, 1978 Tape 635 (Afternoon) PK - 3 Mr. Neary: the permanent civil servants are laid off? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, the number of political appointments that were made in this government over the past thirty years, I suggest if we did that very few who could be called P.C s would be the last to go, Sir. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the han. Premier indicate to the House if Mr. Syrett, the gentleman who was on the carpet yesterday, is still an employee of the government? If so, would the han.

Premier indicate in what capacity this gentleman is employed at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Premier. PREMIER MOORES : Mr. Speaker, I have no idea. I would assume he is not,The Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation,I am sure,can answer that. But to the best of my knowledge he is certainly not employed in the position ~hich he previously held. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Would the Minister of Tourism or the Minister of Rehabilitation care to answer the question? Is Mr. Syrett indeed on a payroll of either one of these departments? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation. MR. T. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, the gentleman was suspended after the court case was over. He was notified that his services were to be terminated, given the required number of days under the wage and working agreement, and obviously given the opportunity during those days to present any arguments he might have against our action.

April 6,1973 Tape No. 636 /ili-1 :·2.. SPEAKER: lion. menber for Fogo followed by the ~1on. gentlemen for Lewisporte and 1:e.:ra iioll'a. CAPT. \l!NSOR: i.fr. Speaker, I have a question for the i·iinister of Tourism. Can the minister inciicate to the House if ~1d when there will be hunter's tests for certification taking place on Fogo Island? And I might interject, Change Island as well. HR. SPEAKER: The han. einister. liR. HORGA:{: :·fr. Speaker, there will be these tests carried out on fogo Island, Change Islands, St. Brendm1 1 s and Greenspond.

Tests on all these island communities tvill be carried out around the end of tile I:lonth or the first week in l!la.y. CAPT. WINSOR: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary. irR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. CAPT. WINSOR: Can the minister also indicate to the liouse if there will be a big game licence seasou again on Fogo Island this year the same as last year? :-1R. SPEAKER: Han. i·finister of Tourism. MR. HORGAN: Hr. Speaker, the information from the .

J. management people in the Wildlife Division indicates that we will be able to have a big gam~ licencing again this year on i for carr]ing out the wishes of the management division of the I Fogo Island, I would like to say at ttis time that the information from the management division commends the people of Fogo Island 'riildlife over the past couple of years to enable the licence system again this year to be open for Fogo Island. )lR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for Baie Verte-wnite Bay. ciR.

ItiDEOUT: I wonder if ti1e miuister could tell me whether or not the department has any immediate plans to conduct the hunter safety test on the Baie Verte Peninsula and where ti>ose tests might take place~

l..pril 6 ,197 3 Tape No. 636 AH-2 :m.. SPEAKER: l:ion. ;·:.inister of Touris;n. :.fR. WRGAN: l~. Speaker, I will take that question under advisement and give information on it tomorrow. l!R. SPEAKER: Hon, me~ber for Lewisporte. l.C.~. l'iHITE: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture and it stems from the present uproar ti1roughout Central Neufoundland 'With respect to Cro;m Lands and in particular ti1e temporary permit situation and the caoin situation. or not he wculd cor • .;ider extending the ::arc:1 31st d~.s.Jline for L :e cbtainin:; of te;nporary perrJ.its in vie1; of the lar;;e ;:,umber of people l>ho vere not aware of that deadline1 not intend to extend the deadline,what procedure is going to be followed after this? :·!R. SPEA.'<ER: r:~e .l lon. minister.

UR. liA'nlARD: :·lr, Speaker, I think the number of complaints ti1at are coDing in are related to :1unting and fishing cabins which are used te:nporarily mostly throug hout the year 1 or at least most of the complaints coming into my office are on that particular subject. The permit to occupy and the requirement for a lease were not meant to apply in the first place to ~emporary hunting cabins and tetlporary fishing cabins along the shore and this sort I overzealous in trying to apply the rules, We have the whole thing I ,, of thing.

I suspect that some of our staff were a little bit under consideration now and I should be .making a statement on it within the next three or four days. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. llR. SPEt,KER: A suppl~entary by the original questioner. :·IR. \,'RITE: ar, Speaker, ~rould the minister tell the House if the regulations do not apply to the temporary hunting and fishi ng cabins,then who gave his officials instructions to tell the people out in Central ~lewfoundland that cabins they had been using for years in the woods and for fishing, many of those

April 6 ,1975 Tape .ic . 636 A;i-3 :-!R. : .liTI: cabins ectuall}" save d lives because of dang ers in hunt ins and so on , would t. e minister tell the Eouse w:to have ais officials the authority ~o tn::eaten various people trJoughout the area, aud I can get affidavits to prove it, and also , :1.r. S-peaker, "'' o ga·:e his officials authority to warn that t e cabins would be burned within a period of tioe and when c: is l>urni.:lg ;.:ill start? ~ HO: . NEHBER: Shmue , s ' ame ! :·:R. ~ORGru'l : <~.

S e ake r , the authority to inforce the Cro;,'Jl Lancis Act came fro1:1 tlti.s House of \sse::~bly t roug. various acts that ha ve Lee n passed over c:1e years so t ssume that tue aut' ority given this :ouse of Assembly can be ·carried out by ar.yone io the staff . The minister does not chomge

an act, the F.ouse of Assembly does and all tdalllbers are quite \\'ell aware of that . 'Furthe= o re, :1::. Speaker, r::.y people c!o not tell anyone t hat t 1e:ir cabins are GOi ng to be burned or that t heir cauijs are 0 0ing to be removed . I That is done by t he courts after prosecution is effected under the I act. IR. CA.LLAN: A supplementary , Hr. Speake r. ~ l I t·' f~ , .. ,- ~· j

April 6, 1978, Tape 637, Page 1 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary. The hon. Mr. Speaker, on the topic of Crown lands and so on, I wonder is the minister aware of the fact that applications for Crown land have not even been opened, the envelopes have not even been opened three months after they have been received by the officials in the Division of Crown Lands? Is the minister aware of that? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: I am not aware of it no, Mr. Speaker.

If the han. gentleman has some specific examples I wish he would bring them to my attention. MR. SPEAKER: One additional supplementary. The han. gentleman for Bellevue and then the han. member for Conception Bay South, I believe, had a supplementary as well. MR . CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, obviously if a receipt for the one dollar or whatever fee enclosed with an application is not sent out within three months it has not even been opened. But to pursue it a little bit further, in view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that there is obviously a shortage of staff in the Division of Crown Lands - that apparently is quite obvious.

Applications take as high as two and three years - in view of the fact there is a shortage of staff, how does the minister explain the fact that the liaison officer, a Mr. Winsor, was taken out of that department and put over with the Action Group? And will that position be filled by some other person? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the position is being filled through the normal channels while Mr. Windsor is with the Action Group. I do not know how long I ~f>'

April 6, l978, Tape 637, Page 2 -- apb MR. MAYNARD: ~~- Winsor is with the Action Group, however long that might be. I do not know when we will get a person on staff but it should not take too much longer to fill it. MR. SPEAKER: I have indicated that I would recognize the hon. member for Conception Bay South, for a supplementary, and then - I presume all the other gentlemen are asking supplementaries as well? - then the other three hon. members. ~. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, on the supplementary. I am sure the han. minister is aware that one gentleman than many members of the House dealt with in Crown Lands was Mr.

Robert Winsor whom the minister and his colleagues have now changed apparently to the Action Group. I am sorry to say that this position does not seem to have been filled, at least I am wondering what the position is. Is he going back there? I was told by one civil servant it would be two years. Does that mean you are phasing the Action Group out in two years or what is it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I just answered that question. Obviously the hon. member was not listening very well. I said that Mr.

Winsor's position is being filled and we hope to have a person in that place within the next few weeks, or as soon as possible, to fill the important position that he held in that department. I have no idea how long Mr. Winsor is going to be with the Action Group, presumably as long as he wants to be there or as long as the Action Group continues. SOME HON. MEMBERS : For years, and years, and years. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon, member for Conception Bay South followed by the ' '· ....

April 6, 1978, Tape 637, Page 3 -- apb MR. SPEAKER: and Lewisporte. hon. members for LaPoile MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Again to the Minister on Crown lands, and it is in connection with an application that has been in, and could be approved, from a gentleman in my own district, in fact, where he has applied for Crown land.

It is going to cost him, I think, $1,500 to have it surveyed, maybe $1,000 to have it fenced if he does it himself, and he wants to spend some money, obviously, in farming, it is an agricultural grant, but he is not permitted to build a building on it in order to hold his equipment. I am wondering if the minister is not aware of this specific complaint because I have written him and no doubt he will be examining it, but I am wondering what is the policy in this regard, not only for the man I am referring to but anyone else.

If they have a Crown land agricultural grant and they are intending to go at it in earnest, how can they have equipment and so on without putting a building on it to house it? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. MAYNARD: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of that particular case, but I will have a look at it. However, there are various types of leases issued and approvals given for Crown land leases.

Some leases specify specifically that it is for farming with no buildings, other leases permit buildings for farming purposes, there are other leases that permit residential buildings and farm buildings, it depends entirely on what the person applied for initially. Or,there may be some problem with timing which is inside my department whereby the Planning Division, possibly Municipal Affairs or the local council will not allow buildings in the area. I . \

.... April 6, 1978, Tape 637, Page 4 -- apb MR. MAYNARD: could not say, but it depends entirely on the provisions of the lease and the application and the area, the type of development that is allowed in the area. I·

April 6, 1978 Tape 638 EC - 1 MR. RIDEOUT: A supplementary, ~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Baie Verte - White Bay and then the other hon. gentleman on supplementaries. MR. RIDEOUT : Mr.

Speaker, I wonder would the minister explain how it is that people who have applied for a residential lease on which to build on a piece of Crown land and have gone through the process and have received permission from councils to do so during the past couple of years, but have not yet received their lease and so on back from his department, how it is that those people have already been taken to court and have been fined $200. m~. NEARY: Hear, hear! AN RON. MEMBER: That is right. Come on, 'Ed'. ¥.R. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Forestry and Agriculture.

"!R. !"'.AYNARD : Well, if the person applied for a lease and has not received it or the lease has not been approved, obviously they are violating the Crown Lands Act by building on it. The local council has no authority over Crown lands and has no authority to give a permit to build on any piece of land that belongs to the " Crown unless the Crown first authorizes it, and the only authorization I ·' can come through a lease.

So regardless of how many permits they may have had from a town or community council or a local improvement district or whatever, that does not give them the right to occupy land until the Crown says so. ~m.. RIDEOUT: A supplement2ry, ~fr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Baie Verte - Hhite Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: !1r.

Speaker, in view of the fact that councils throughout this Province - and some have told me that they were ~ot advised of the changes in the Crown land regulations regarding leases - in view of the fact that councils are as!:ed their opinion on whether it is proper by the Crown Lands Division, ~~hether they have any objections i t

April 6, 1978 Tape 638 EC - 2 HR.. RIDEOUT : to settling on those lands, in view of the fact that councils have always been in the past given permits once they have been told by Forestry and Agriculture, 'Look, we have processed the application to the point that you people have no objec~ions so you can go ahead and give them;• and in view of the fact that councils ~•ere never told that they could no longer do that, does the minister have any plans to undo the damage that has been done to people in rural areas who have already been taken before court, prosecuted and fined? MR..

SPEAKER : The hen. the llinister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR.. MATIIARD: Hr. Speaker, there has not been any change in the law in the last fifty years regarding councils bein~ able to give a permit to build on Crown land. They have never been able to give a permit. AN HON. HEMBER: (Inaudible) object to it? MR. MAYNARD: Oh, they are able to object now, they are able to give a permit now. Once an application comes in to the Crown Lands Division, it is immediately sent to a n~ber of different agencies, one of which is the local municipal council.

Now if that application is for agriculture or for residence or for commercial purposes or whatever,and the local municipal council feels that that should not occur within their boundaries,then they have every right to object to it, and the Crown will not normally issue a lease or a grant within the .municipal boundaries if the local council objects to it. It is the same thing, of course, with the Planning Division of Municipal Affairs or the Department of Health, the ~epartment of Transportation and a number of other agencies.

Quite often ar application is turned down by the Crown Lands Division but not normally because of Crown lands regulations; it is normally because of regulations of other agencies, other departments or the local council itself. Now we have over the last few years, I believe starting in 1974, been making developwent lands available to ~ . i. I­ I

April 6 , 19 78 Tape 638 EC - 3 }ffi.. MAYNARD: council. tn other ~1ords, it' a council in any area of the Province comes in to us and says, 'We have a plan to develop fifty homes in this certain part of town and a few commercial lots and this sort of thing; ..,.e want a grant to that land,' we will give the grant to the council specifically for that purpose. It is very easy then for the council to sell the land 1n lots to the local people and it is much easier that way.

We have been trying to encourage municipal councils aiound the Province to prepare plans and come in and get a block of land~- and once they are getting it surveyed it is a matter of slicing it up and then dispensing it themselves. So that means that that application only has to go out to the agencies once,

whereas if each individual comes in from the town, each one has to go to all the agencies. SOME liON. ~filERS: Oh, oh! ~- SPEAKER: A final supplementary by the hon. j member for Baie Verte - White Bay and then the hen. member for LaPoile. .I

,\;::::-il 5' 1978 Tape ~To. 639 :·::! - 1 :·!R4 ~IDEOUT : I just Hao:!t to give r.otice for t!le :ainister's info=.ntion th<lt I '~ould like to have this held over for the Late Sho.,, . . \ supplementary, ::r. Spea!:ar. :~. SP::;J'-=:r.: The hon. =nber for LaPoile has got a S'..!pplenentary, and t!~en I reco:;nize the han. !'tenber for !.e,~isporte for su;pleuer..taries, and the:t ti1e ~1on. mewber for Terra ::ova ou ne'' subjects. :IF.. :r::A2Y . r:r. Speaker, t~is is a very serious satter o:.~tsiJ.e t!:e City of St.

Jo~;.n's, in the rural ar2.as 1 this mati:er o£ :ro ·,.n~. land applications and the •.. .-hola ?rovince see~ to be in a uproar over th~ policy now trat is being followed by the cinister issuin6 ultimatums to people and dra:;;:;ing people into court, hauling i=ocent ·,r:.cti;-..s into court ~ :bile they are waiting for t!:eir applic;:;tions t:o be processed i)y the Cro;;n Lands Division of the 0epartlllent of Forestry aad Agriculture. .\nd in view of ti:J.e fact, :rr.

Speaker, that in one case t:1at I l;nO\V of, in ~osc Jlanc: te, \·Jhere a person was v.·aiting for his approval of his application for a piece of Cro<."n land and later was told that what was nanging it up was the Depart~teut of :Iealth for water and sewerage, and during the time he was waiting for t.'1e application to be processed, '"hich is a;,out a yaar and a "-alf, ;.rater and aewarage has no·_, :,ee.a put in the community of F-Dsa !llanc:--.e.

And that particular gentleman '"as hauled into court recently and fi~ed $200 and all the other people along that Coast who had built homes and houses on Cro•,;n land have been taken to court and fi~ed $200 an.! wa<le looi: li~e co=on cri::inals in t!lis rrovincc. ' 7ould the ::tinis ter tell the aouse who issued these ul ti:Jatums to take these p.ooplce L-.to court, l·:ho :1ave built :1ouses pendbg the approval of their applicatio~ by the Cro<.T.

Lanes Division of the ~inistcr's depart~ent: And \:hy C.oes it talce so long? ~·nty .ioes it take tuo and three years ,and four years in some cases, to process one of these applications ,.;hen the . ~ minister assured the House a fe1;r years ago that the minister was going to streamline his department and these applications ~1ould be processed

April 6, 1978 Tape No. 63~ :JR. :!:CARY: in a matter of montbs~ ! !:!\. SPE .. •\XER: T~1e hon. :Iinister of Forestry and Agriculture. :z-~. ~lATilA...~D: l-lr. Speaker, the last part of t:1e ilon. ;,entleman's question he ans>>'ered hi;:::self. He said t:lat the application took a year and a half because the Department of Health 1.-ould not approve an application. :'ow that said nothing >vhatsoever a::,out st:::c-=lining the Depart:::~ent of Crmm Lands.

I£ the Department of :1ealth feels that in a certain area that t:1e se~;erage system cannot ~e put in acceptable to their standa~ds or there is no sewerage system in the town or the water could be polluted, t:1e drinking ·•ater for other parts of the town 1matever, they can ;,ang up an s.pplication and we are not going to issue a lease to that piece of land until the Department of Healt!1 says so. There are a number of cases where this happens.

A3 far as taking to people to court is concerned, our staff,\·:het~~er they are Forestrj and Agriculture or in t!1e Lands Division, have the authority under the act: to euforce the Crown Lands Act:. And when they kno~ that there is a viglation of the act, the same as when any officer of the Cro•Nn knows that there is a violation of any act of this Legislature,they might take action, They talce the court and assesses the situation and applies whatever penalty they feel is necessary at the time.

That is no different in Crown Lands t:-.an it is in hunting for Il'.Oose or fishing for lobsters uitr-.out a licence or anyt!1ing else. ~'R. ;TEl1.~Y ~ A final supplem~:ttary, Sir. ----- ::'... SP!: .. :LC.ER: I have indicated I "ill hear th~ hen. ::~ember for Le~V':i.sportc ~·lith e. final supple::te:ntary. I should .3tick \·Yit~ that. :':" .. '1'1!ITE: --·------ '!e recognized me, 'Steve'. There have been such a laro;e nunber of supplenentaries on this, and I am a~·iare that t:1ere are other rne~bers \.;ishing to :;et in, it <dll not preclude ';,.on. !'!embers from getting back to the subject. But I did

April 6, 1973 TJ.;e ~-lo. 53? - 3 ir.ciic:.te t:•at I ,.;oulcl hear one frow. c~e :.on. :nelilber for La!'oile, a fL-l.al one-t:le one I already heard, not an addicional oue- th£n a final one. fro1:1 ~he ~ 'l. on. ::J.embcr for Le':·7ispozotc, and t~en the han. JaCober for Terra :<ova on . a new subject. ~!r. Speaker, ;;hen I asked the first question to t~1e ::~initer :iiti"• res,>ect to th:.s !?articular topic, :1e inciicatad t:1at the temporary hunting and fishing cabins :.;ere ~ot intanded to be included uncer this new restriction, this ne~; leu.

Can t:1e :J.io.ister tell the :louse r11hetl1er or C.Ot ~le ?lans to in£or:::1 :1.iS officials of t:tis because as late as this =rning I kno~; of people w-:10 were tol d that they had to tear doun their cabins or would be brought before court, As late as this uorning, )~. Speaker, that happened. And at the same time would the minister tell the :louse ,,;,en he plans to hire adciitional staff at the Gander Forestry and .\.griculture office to handle the ~00 applications tl1at are on the desk not even opened? 80fJ on t:le desl~ not opened! AN :ION. !1E:fBER: Shame! Shane! !lR. SPSA:C::R: The hon.

Hinister of Forestry and Agriculture. . .1 HR. l<I!ITE: Hell the staff should be aware by this time tl1at thcoy are not to tak a any action in regards to tcr:-.;::·orary hunting and fishing cabins, wherever they may be, until such time as a more precise definition can be applied to them.And it is pretty hard to define what is a temporary and what is a permanent structure I guess. As far as the number of staff in the Cro;.-:1 LanC:s Divis:.on are concer:t~d,we feel tho.t ~1 e do at this tine have adequate staff.

There may ])e backlogs i:l. certain regional offices at cert.:~in poL:~s in time 1 but I should point out to han. !!'e:::';)ers that Hithin tl:e l-ast t:~o years we bave decentralized the Crmm Lanus Division of t~''" Department. ::e nOT.¥ have offices in Goose 3ay, Corner llrook, · ~ .i ,

April 6, 1978 Tape 640 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Mr. Maynard: Gander, and a regional office here in St. John's which I believe is serving the public fairly well. It is not as good as we would like to have it,obviously, and I suppose to take on the number of staff that would be the ideal situation would increase the public service that much more, and I do not think it is necessary at this point in time, in this time of restraint to increase our staff too much. However,we do have at the present time a management and organization review of the Crown Lands Division being carried out.

And if that review suggests that more staff was needed to push the applications through, and to get them filled, along with all the other duties of the Crown Lands Division has, then we will certainly do that. MR. SPEAKER: I have indicated that I would recognize the hon. member for Terra Nova followed by the hon. members for Eagle River and Carbonear. MR. T. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, in view of the tremendous labour unrest in the Province in recent weeks in particular, I want to direct I' r a couple of questions to the Minister of Labour and Manpower.

I I( tc • L; wonder if the minister can inform the House as to what is happening with respect to the Labrador situation, the strike between IOC and its workers, the situation which seems to have brought a complete standstill in Labrador West with the QNS 'and L Railway workers out on strike, also effecting Wabush Mines. I understand they have laid off fifty-nine people, and if the railway workers are out much longer it is possible that they are going to have to lay off more men and possibly close down the whole operation. So can the minister tell us what is happening with the negotiations?

Is there a settlement in sight? Has the minister taken any action in this respect? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: Sir, all I can tell the hon. member is that the minister has certainly being on top of this from day one,pbviously, as he is with the Baie Verte situation, and tried to be. And the . i

April 6, 1978 Tape 640 (Afternoon) PK - 2 Mr. Rousseau: situation in Western Labrador is the Iron Ore Company of Canada operations in Sept Iles is on strike. According to the collective bargaining process they went through all of the procedures and are legally in 2 position to strike, and have taken a strike vote, and have struck the company at Labrador City. At Sept Iles, the Iron Ore Company of Canada is also on strike.

One must realize that the problem here does not exist only with Labrador City and Wabush, but exists with Schefferville, Sept Iles, The Quebec North Shore knd Labrador Railway, and Point Noire, Point Cartier of the Wabush Mines operation in Quebec. Talks have been ongoing from the first day that a request was made for a conciliation officer. I have directed two people from the department-because of the distance and because of the number of labour contracts we have this year on the Island part of the Province, for the most

part 125 - I directed my de.puty minister~ Mr. Blanchard 1 and my Director of Labour Relations,Mr. Noseworthy,who normally does not get involved in conciliation proceedings to handle the situation up there because they are going back between Quebec and Newfoundland, and there is also a federal mediator involved, or a conciliator, so you have three jurisdictions. The Quebec North Shore and Labrador Railway is not on strike.

The problem is that the Quebec North Shore and Labrador Railw·ay is operating, but they are carrying non-company merchandise; in other words, they will not carry any of the things that will continue operations at either the Iron Ore Company of Canada and Wabush,because the Quebec North Shore and Labrador Railway employees will not cross the picket lines by the steelworkers at the Sept Iles operation, so the trains are running, and talks are being held, and we are very hope~ul this week that some progress will be made. I think this is a very important week.

The talks started on Tuesday, I believe, again in Sept Iles involving both Wabush Mines and the union there, Local 6285 and Sept lies with the Iron Comapny of Canada 5795, and their unions. So the talks are progressing and I hope this week that we will have something concrete from it. I ' ' I. . ~ J {,

April 6 1978 Tape 640 (Afternoon) PK - j MR. LUSll: A supplemencary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. tusa: Can the minister ve·rify chat c.he reasons for the scrike, che two major reasons, have to do wich healch and safety measures and W'ith concract.ing out? MR . SPEAKER: The han. ~linister of Labour and ~~npower. MR. ROUSSEAU: I think that the hon. member realizes full well that during a situation in which negotiacions are going, a strike situations, that the minister normally does not say what is going.

I get a report every day or every ~o days, a reporr from m7 conciliation officers, but I can report. .chat: 1o1hen I la.st reported there were some forty items outstanding on language; the majority of those have been cleared up and they are not a problem . The monetary package is not on the table at all in any instance throu~hout the who~e Quebec ~orth Shore iron ore operations, and also that

April 6,1978 Tape No. 641 P.R-1 :·IR. ROUSSEAU: the question of contracting out appears to be the big question in Seven Islands anti the question of occupational health and safety appears to be the big question in Labrador City. The monetury ;:ackage is still not on the table but the t•m h:f_a i~""~~ within tc1e proper context 100uld appear to be contracting and occupational health and safety. 6RDERS OF TliE DAY On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of the 1-ihole on estimates lir, Speaker left the Chair. COMNITTEE OF THE WHOLE :-fR. CHAIPJ·!AN: Order, please!

Transportation and Communications, Heading XVll, ,Page 1C9. Hen. l1,inister. ;-IR>. ::JOODY: Hr. Chairman, I do not know if this is significant or not but my desk mate has just left. They are all leaving. There they go, . I .\,_'< HON. :tE:·lBER: (Inaudible) HR. DOODY: Good, .;cod! As long as we keep enough people around here to make this an interesting session, Your Honour would be quite pleased. I will not take too much time on a

preamble, ~rr. Chairman, because I am sure that the committee want to ~et iuto the estimates themselves and into tile vote. I siwply 1mut to say i.::. open:U1g that I arJ quite pleaseu to have this opportunity to becol!le involved in the Departn:.ent of Tra.."lsportation and Comraunicatioils, It is a ne\v era for me really. I have not i1ad this opportunity to becoll!e exposed to people, to groups, to the Province for a numbar of years having been somewhat isolated in that gray,dismal ground of Finance, Treasury Board,with apologies and respect to my successors. t

April 6,197<3 Tape :;o, 641 AH-2 :-IR. DOODY: I compl~ent my ?redeccssors of this ?articular department for the work t:-.at they ::ave done. I had no idea that it was such an in~olved and sucn a com?licated area of responsibility until I ~ove in there a few weeks a3o.

The exposure,as I sa;, to so many problems of so many people in this Province simply o:ie.:Jonstrates the vast strides that we have yet to ::~a:•e in te=s of transportation and in co!.l.lllunications ~1ere in this Province. lie i~ve made obviously fantastic strides since Confederation and we nave maae ~reat inroads into the problems that t:1e Province had faced at that time.

In many areas unfortunately the Province is still far behind the rest of Canada. ~e have attempted to do perhaps in the twenty-seven or twenty-eight years or so of Confederation '"hat the other provinces have had a hunC::red (y12ar head-start on us and to that degree I suppose we are that I } '~uch behind both in terms of repayment cf debt and in :erms of infrastructure placement. ~~~t was taken for granted just a few years ago, l1r. Chairman, as a normal set of circumstances in the Province of ~ewfoundland and Labrador is no longer the case.

Peopl.; in every community feel,and rightly solthat tl:cy have a right to what many of us take for granted, reasonable communications, opportunities to hear what is going on and to see what is going on in the rest of the world and the rest of Canada, t:1e right to be able to move from place to place at reasonable cost and in reasonable confort under reasonahle degrees of conditions,driving cor.ditions in terms of roads, in terr.:s of rail, in terms of air.

And thi<> is indeed a responsibility that we share with tne Government of Canada and indeed if it had not been for the assistance of the Government of Canada and indeed for the ongoing assistance of the Government of Canada we would not have had the opportunity to put in place the amenities t:lilt we have here now- , Aud we look forward to that continuing relationship with the federal govern9ent to carry us on r . ~ , ' _, • [ •

Avril 6, 1978 Tape ~a. 642 :m- 1 :JR. DOODY: even further. :-Je realize that t:1ere are certain areas of responsibility that are strictly tl1ose of the Government of Canada under the terms of union. ~ .. re. k::ow that there are areas of rail and coastal service and of the gulf service that are 9 strictly speaking and legally speaking, the responsibility of the Govern1nent of Canada. I think it I:Jay 'Je time for us ?erhaps to start thi~l~ing of reshaping our thoughts in tha~ direction and to ask for some input into that decision making process by the Governncnt of Canada.

Obviously if we do that h'e are ;;air.:; to have to be prepared to pick up part of the tab, part of the price of perfo~ing these services. And so the Provinces during the next few years,I would suggest, l.fr. Chai=an, is going to have to =ke some pretty taught decisions as to '1hich direction ''e t;ant to :;o and tvhere t!e uant to put those dollars that are available for transportation and comw~nications. We cannot think only in terns of roads. 'loads are certainly the ~st obvious and the cost apparent and the nest necessary part.

But strangely er.ough those areas of the Province that have the best road service relative to other parts, or those from •;hom ''"'e get the mast complaints, the :nos t petitions, the :::os t demands, t !1e most expect<: tions, or the hi3hest degree of exposure to expectations come from the Island part of the Province tvhich is indeed so far advanced in terms of co~unications, in terms of !"oad net...arks, in te~s of air transport, as to !Je in an entirely different t;orld, just s.s ve here on parts of t!:e Island are so far behind. parts of Or.t~rio, .,~2n you look at parts of our !':o:ovince, t!-.e ::.J:!jor lane'. ''·'ISS of the ?ra,:ince, the Lahr~dor

section of the Provi'!Ce, th:tt is al-::o~3t ir. :1. diffcre!\t century and I thin:c that ue in th~ Province have durin;; the coming :'aars acd in •rery few years, have got to come to grips with the tr.>nsportation and co:::r:.mnicrrtion ;;;ro0l8:::.3 in ter= of the "hole ·Province and t~e have got to look at that tt.J.jor " l l s ; .. •

Lpril o, 1"'" ........ Tape :lo. 642 :i:~ ·- 2 ::1.. DOODY~ part of tile land mass of t:~e ?rOvL~.ce ~•hich is in Labrddor &•d I do not ~ean t~is as a pious certainty. I t:1.:i.n~;; it is su=.Jet~i:lg t~:at ~1as ~een n.eglec tad Zor too lo:a:1g. Per!1a;>s there have not been enough people. ::.aybe there l1as not been enough I do not knmv lvhat the ans, ,•er it.

I do aot ~now why tl1e proi:leJ:J is as acute as it is. :ut I do l ~::ow t~at it is u;J.ly durin~ relatively recent years that any ~r~at recobnition of the tr~~sportation and co~unication protleil5 in I.a!Jraclor have carne to t~1e surfac~. .::Jlti :::,3t is one of the ~lings that has really been broug:lt to cy sttention, as I a;:; sure it ;las ~een to r.;.y predecessors, but it ::as soUict:ling that I can say in all honesty that I :1ad not fully raalized until t:1e past fe,J :veeks ·,;hen I :U.ve beEr: e:tposed to the hugeness of tl1e pro blew since I have tal: en over the res pons i:,ili ty for that departme .. t.

I l~ou it is a horrendous one. I knmv it is not one t!·.at ;1e can do on our own in terms of a Trans-Canada 1Iigh~vay. I !~now that that is t!1e sort of thing •Je have to do ·..;ith the co-<:>peration of the Gover=ent of Canada. It has been suggest~d by one of our colleagues here in t~is :1ouse that tl:at s:1.ould have been included in the ':er::ils of "C"nion. ~lobody can argue with that truism. TI1ere are many things that should have been included in the Terms of Union. The unfortunate fact is that it was not.

I think that it is a good lever end a good arc;ument to start ~;or king alor.g these lines. ~ ·!e have presented to the Govern.".lent of Canada, ·ln in collaboration with the Governnent of Quebec, a very detailed and very involved plan which demonstrates - and there may be people who would smile at this - but demonstrates the economic feasability of a Trans- Labrador !ligh~1ay. The consultants, and I <"as as cynical as ;I:CS t people 11han they started, demonstrated t~e fact that it ~•as a feasi'ble and reasonable i I J. . ;

.'.pril 6, 1973 T.qe :;c. 642 - 3 plan in ter~ cf t~e develcpnent of Cenada as a nation to put in "ffect a Tn.ns -Labrador lligh;.;ay. AnC:. unfortu;:ately it ::as taken us,I think, ar:cl I acknowledge a £air share of t~1e guilt, it has taken us far too lor.g to put into effect some of t:1~se t~1i~:;s.

April 6, 1978 Tape 643 DW - 1 MR. DOODY: I think that we here on the Island part of the Province have taken too much of the cake on a short term effort.

I think that we have looked at tnings in too narrow perspective.! think that the future of this Province as a w[-.ole has got to be expanded in terms of ti1e Province of a whole and we have got to look at our future not only in terms of the fishery resourcetwhich has been mostly related to the Island and partially to Labrador,but in terms of providing the opportunties to the people in Labrador to attract more people anti to develop those things that tne people there now have and can use.

The Government of Canada is starting,fortunately,to recognize that.! think that this thirteen airstrip program which they are putting in place during the next few years is a major step forward.! think it is only a partial step,it is only a little toddley step;these airstrips are not really sufficient to do anything really in a big way to alleviate the physical isolation of th~ coast of Labrador,! think they will be a tremendous asset in terms of the morale and the knowledge of the people in that area that they are not forgotten and not cut off.

It may very well be as some of the arguments that I have heard that they lila.Y be only used for a couple of montlls of the y~ar during a break-up season or during a freeze-up season. I think that may not be true.! think that under proper conditions and with the proper kind of maintenance and the proper kind of attention they could very well be an all year-round operation and I think that that is a major and important thing. Obviously air transport in that area is gain!> to be of far more importance in the short-term than road transport.

And I think that the money that is invested in air transport in the coastal part of Labrador,and indeed in Labrador generally,is going to be far, far more rewarding in terms of human values and actual terms of economics than money that is paid into a half-hearted and inefficient coastal boat service which is spasmodic at best •. And I suppose it is only the mercy of tue good Lord that ••e have a harsh winter on the coast of Labrador or it would cost the Governuent of Canada two or three times .I ... . f

April b, 1978 Tape b43 J.Jw - l HR. DOODY: as much to keep that service going for the rest of the year whicn would make it. _ ~?-ight now we ilave the excuse I suppose of having a freeze-up which relieves us of some that responsibility.But for too long I think we have we in the Province, tne Government of Newfoundland,have been only too happy to slougb. tne responsibility off on to the Government of Canada under the te~s of union.

The Government of Canada are pb.ysically v<:.ry far removed and they can look at the fine print in the contract and say tb.at that is really their responsibility and so they will make a stab at it and do what they can.

I think that in small way we are going to have to try to get ourselves involved in there supposing it'is only on a small percentage basis 1 supposing we only make a token contribution tm;ard, tlte operation,and it will give us b.ere in the Province some input into what should be or what we feel should be instead of saying that the Q.'l or the HOT or the .Harine Services or whatever new body ve find to bounce the potato in'tut that,I think,is the sort of area that we have to follow in that particular situation.I think that we have to grapple with it and that we certainly are ~ot attempting to do so to date and we are certainly not attempting to, really do so seriously during the present set of estimates.

I think that the communications area of the department is one that is of major importance,.

It is one that has just been recently established~o.:.e that has far more irr.pottance perhaps in this Province tb.an in many of the Provinces of Canada. fhe radio - tele- vision, the satellite possibilities ,tne possibilities of provincial input into the ownership of satellites~the opportunities of taking advantage of these ownership entities to beam our message to our people and cut off that sense of isolation •. , ~le recognize the fact that we want to keep our lifes~le here in this Province,all parts of this Province.Jn order to do that we have got to recognize the fact that we are in the twentieth century, that people in the t:>'entieth century want to have the amenities or at least part of the amenities of life.I think that witll the ?roper •· I

April 6, 1978, Tape 644, Page 1 -- apb MR. DOODY: communications and the proper transportation system, We here in this Province are in the weird and wonderful position of being able to take advantage of the best of both worlds. I think that the money that is spent in the Transportation and Communications

section of our budget will give us here in Newfoundland the opportunity to become,really, a part of Canada, to become part of the Western World, to be able to communicate with ourselves and with all parts of the Province, and still have our own unique lifestyle down here on the East coast. The challenges are huge. The money is missing. We do not have enough money to handle all the problems. We may not have the money for years to come, but we have to recognize the problems and we have to grope with them. We have the situation in the Baie Verte area, the health hazard situation.

That is not one that can be ignored, it is one that has to be grappled with. The money has to be found. It cannot be done in a year or two years; it may take three years or more to put in the pavement that is necessary to cover up the dust problem in that area. What we have to do is do it in a series of reasonable, sensible,well-calculated and well-thought-out steps and use what ever other agencies are possible. It has been suggested that liquid calcium will keep the dust in place while we try to catch up with what should have been done, perhaps years ago. The neglect in St.

Mary's district,where there was not a mile of pavement done until a few years ago; the isolation of Buchans which is now a socio-economic problem, which perhaps one can say should have been looked at some years ago but which I .I -.t I

April 6, 1978, Tape 644, Page 2 -- apb MR. DOODY: is now one that this administration has to face and deal with; the Burgee situation, with the help of DREE we are cutting off that particular isolated area; the ferry services in the Province which many of our people, particularly in the Northeast area are concerned about and I am certainly concerned about, and the Bell Island situation. All these things, Sir, are real problems, problems that have to be faced and ones that have to be dealt with.

The air services situation is one, I think, that has got to be expanded and pressed on further because for us here in this Province with its huge land mass and its relatively small population, that has to be the most sensible and reasonable form of transportation that we are going to find, certainly in the short-term, and one, I think, that the Department of Health and other departments would be very much in favour of. But, Sir, as I have said, these various areas and these various items I will try to elaborate on to the best of my ability as we get into the subheads of the estimates.

I will crave the indulgence of the House as I may have to pop out from time to time to crave the advice of the officials of the department who are expert in various areas. With these few opening comments, Sir, I throw myself at your mercy and we will get on with the details. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Committee rise,and report no progress. We have no confidence in the government, we will not pass the estimates, t- • -'

April 6, 1978, Tape 644, Pag.e 3 - - apb MR . NEARY: Mr. Chairman . MR . W.N. ROWE: Close the doors . MR . CHAIRMAN : Order, please! The Chair can only recognize one hon . member at a tim~ . MR . NEARY : Well, the hon. gentleman yielded, Your Honour, so I move the Committee rise . MR . CHAIRMAN: Order, please~ The Chair is not aware that the hon. member has yielded. MR . RIDEOUT: Mr . Chairman, I will move tllat the Committee rise and report progress and ask leave to sit again. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh , oh! MR . CHAI.ID1AN: Order, please ! Order! Order!

When the question is being put hon. members are aware that the Chair has precedence and that hon. members should not interrupt. .I I .. ~ ! • '

April 6, 1978 Tape 645 EC - 1 ~. CHAI~-~: (Dr. Collins) Those in favour 'aye', contrary 'nay' - MR. NEARY.: }fr. Chairman, a point of order. ~-ffi.. C1!AIIU1AN : A point of order has been raised. ~.NEARY: Hr. Chairman, who can vote when Your Honour is putting the question t•hen five members of this Rouse came through the doors? The member for Harbour Grace ( ~r. Young), the n:ember for St. John's East Extern (!~r. Hickey), the member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey), the member for Green Bay (Mr. Peckford), the member for St. John's East (Mr. Marshall), and the member for Trinity North (Mr.

Brett) came through the door, Your Honour. 'MR.. CHAI~.AN : Order, please! A point of order is not in order whilst the question is being put, and I have not completed putting the question as yet. In my opinion the 'nays' have it. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman. MP.. CHAIR.M.AN: The hon. member for Baie Verte - lfuite Bay. r'R. RIDF.Ot1T: Thank you, r~r. Chairman. Now, ~!r. Chairman, I agree with the minister, we should try to get down into the headings of his department as soon as we can.

Certainly before we do that there are a few general comments that I would like to make in response to the few opening remarks that the minister had made and raise some new subjects. r I The minister certainly in his opening remarks, Hr. Chairman, raised a number of good ideas, maybe a lot of idealism with regard to the development of transportation in this Province. And on most of the counts I can certainly agree with some of the ideas and idealisms suggesterl in the remarks by the minister. I only wish though, }!r.

Chairman. we could see some of the long range plans that the minister referred to sort of exemplified into government goals and laid down so that we know without any doubt where we are going in this Province with regarc1. to the development of a transportation policy.

April 6, 1978 Tape 645 EC - 2 }ffi. RIDEOUT: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would submit to the Committee that this Province needs a well thought-out, a well defined transportation policy and that up to this point in time we certainly have not had that type of approach by this government. We cannot continue on an ad hoc basis with regard to the development of our transportation links in all forms by sea, road, air and so on around this Province, and I do not believe that it is too harsh, Mr. Chairman, to say that the government's policy on transportation has in many respects been based on political expediency.

I do not believe it is too harsh to say that. I have not been around the political arena very long, but I have fought some of the wars and I have seen the examples in Exploits, for example, I have seen them in Bonavist ~ North, I have seen them only last Fall in Twillingate district, ald you cannot develop a transportation policy that is going to have the necessary effect that it must have if we are to develop the economy of this Province based on political expediency alone. So therefore, Mr.

Chairman, I would have to say that we have to have a well thought-out, well defined transportation policy for this Province. We need a transportation policy that has projected goals and objectives. What happened, Mr. Chairman, for argum~t sake, to the five or six year master plan that this government was professed to have had when it came to office five or six years ago? What happened to the five or six year master plan with regard to upgrading and paving of highways in this Province? I know we talk about cutbacks, we talk about restraints and so on, but transportation, Mr.

Chairman, is certainly a vital part of the infrastructure that is needed for the development of the resources of this Province. I do not think anybody, for example, looks at the Department of Transportation and Communications in the social sense that you would look at Social Services or the Department of Health. Transportation is almost, I suppose you could say, a resource department. Certainly the development of the necessary i J I t - ~ t ·I

April 6, 1978 Tape 645 EC - 3 ~!R. RIDEOUT: transportation links in this Province, the development of the necessary infrastructure is going to have a long-term effect upon the development of the resources of this Province, so therefore the Department of Transportation is vital in those respects and must be looked at in that very li p,ht. For example, the transportation of fish and fish products.

We hear a lot about the Department of Fisheries and the growing fishery and how the future of ~re~~foundland is dependent on the fishery - rightly so, I agree with that - but the transportation of fish and fish products, Mr. Chairman, can be done more efficiently, more effectively, more cheaply if we have in this Province a ~~ell developed transportation system, a ~•<=11 developed system of paved roads, good roads to provide cheap transportation and so on. Now that will have, I would submit to the Committee, an economic effect on the development of this Province.

And, Sir, is not that the goal that we are talking about? Transportation has to mean more than just snow clearing in the .I And if that is the case then the significance of the Department of Wintertime or Summer maintenance of gravel roads and so on. vie have to have a well thought-out, well defined policy saying where we are going, how we are going to get there and when we can expect to get there. We have not had that in this Province up to this time,as I have suggested to the Committee already. It has been development of transportation policy strictly on an ad hoc

April 6, 1978 Tape :1o. 646 ;.rr! - 1 :tR. !',ID:'!:Ol'T: basis, nostly on a political basis, and the effect has not been the type of effect that has been beneficial to the Province a,; And, Hr. Clainaan, I !:lentioned the fisr:eries just as an exa~ple. Certainly the same is true of the develop~ent of our potential in the forest industry, transportation of forest products around the Province, through the processing centres and so on, the tourist industry.

Tr:msportation i1aa connotations for the Hhole development, the development of the 1~hole economy of t!~is Province and that is 1-rhy it is important that "e have a ~;ell thou~~t out and well defined transportation policy. )!o'' no doubt progress has been nade in some areas.

It 1muld be foolish of ~ to ~et U? here and su:;gest that it f:as not. !7e have nade extreoely good progress in DREE agreements, for example,building the high~1ay dmm the ~orthern !'eninsula, ~;hich 1..rill be of great econo!'!ic benefit for that particular are of the Province, 6te LaScie Highway ' for example, the Bonavista North I t Loop Road and so on. We have been able to utiltize those ninety - ~ ten dollars to develop and to build very inportant pieces of road in this 2rovince. And, l!r. Chairman, that brings another question.

In doing that we should have been able to free some of the provin.:iu.l dol:!.ars that ordinarily 1·7ould t.ave :u·.d to 0e sper-.t on Coing e1ose ro~ds, becall3e if we did not ~ct ~ ~~~E n~reemcr.t, the :-rort::ern Pcmi:J.sula Liighway ::;till !1ad to be do:1c, granted it would not :..ave. :..eer1 do ~-~ ~ as fast, or ?rob~.bly not up to sucl1 a stanclarcl.

T'.1e ;Jonavista :'lo:;:t;, Lao~ '?.cad C·/Ould still have had to ae done, the LaScic Eic:;l1way a."l.ci all of thel:l would still l1ave l!ad to be done. dollars, then that should have meant that a lot of the millions of t ' i But because of the fact that '~e \vere able to ;;et the DREE agreeweuts, because of the fact that ~Te l·Tere able to get the ninety ·· ten " dollars that this Province would have had t~ provide out of its o1m resources to spend on those roads, uhich certainly are c::e priority

,\pril 6, 1978 Tape :lo. 646 :rr-. :UDEOUT: roads or would :•ave been the priority roads in anybody's imagination, a lot of the dollars that tl1is Province "ould have had to find frot:l its o1m resources to spend on those roads should have been able to find itself into the rebuilding and reconstruction of the other less important trunk roads and those =jor ones I have mer.tior.ed, in this Province. Jut, cir. Chair-;nan, that is wher~ our transportation policy is fallin;?; dotm. It has not happened <.:ith ~ny degree of planning.

That has happened on an ad hoc basis, that has happened on a political basis and so on. And tcu~t is l>hat we have got to get a•,ay from and that is 1vhy it is so vital, as I have been trying to point out, that we have a ,,·ell defined transportation rolicy that is going to benefit this Province, not only wnat ,_,e can get out of DRI:E but r,rhat 11e can do on our own froo our own resources as 1,;ell. ~~o doubt about it, Sir, we need a policy that reflects a long-term plan to upgrade and pave every major road in the Province. It is not going to happen overnight.

Ciobody over here is naive enough to expect that it will, nor n2.ive enou:;h to demand that it should 1 but we have to have that plan. And that is >1hy I am interested in knowing what happened to that great master plan that 1·1as supposed to have been developed so::te five or six years a:;o, 1·:here every major road in the Province 1vas supposed t o kno1·7 <here it ,.,as on the priorit:y list. '·That happened to it? Did it disappear after an election or l''hat? Every ::Jajor ro2.d il' t:1e Province Fas supposed to l:no1v 1vhere it was. ~T o, in 1978 this is '>'hat 11e 1dll ·,e doing.

In 1979 this is what 1-1e uill be doing, based of course on our ability to do so. But that great master plan seems to have disappeared and I would submit that it is what is needed in an overall transportation policy for this Province, a policy that would see the reconstruction and paving carried out on a priority

.\p:.-il 6 , 1978 '!'ape :io. 646 :~ . RIDEOt.'T: bas~3, ~:r. C!-tai'!."tlan, t:.ac :Jould en!-tance t!-te economic developcea~ of t~e Province , based on ?tiority and based on the development of t he resources, Hhether it be the fishery resource o :.- t~c forastry res ou rce or : he tou:.-iso resource or l·thatev er i.'l t he vari ous pa:rt s of t:he Province . !t is not based on fou r or five =ilcs of pavement for no pE:.-~ic~lar reason . !t is impot"t:m t !:-> c::e peor>le ~~!lo live : :te r e end <.~en ~·le c-.n :;et a rouncl co <loins 11: ccrtairo.ly PC ou:;h t to do it . ha?;:>ened in this Pr ovince . :~r.

Chair::lan, as I h:ve su'l:;ested, ever:: part of t.'l:.s Provi:lce s!:ould knott che r c it is on th e ?rio ritie s scale . Pa ouc;ht to ':no·~ ···!:at t.~e :;oals are . 1·/e ou;;h t to know :lP.:~founcl.:::.d, based on - in cei~oo ts of cou rse with the ·~hole l!cc::.ot".ic devP.l0?'"12!'.t ?ri-Or iti"'S of the P::ovince. :\.nc t:::e::~ ·:e s:~ould se t about adhering to them in an orderlv and olannP.rl ~~ner, . . ~ -I i

April 6, 1978 Tape 647 (Afternoon) PK - 1 Mr. Rideout: not departing from them for political purposes or other purposes or whatever but have the master plan and follow it and then we all know where we are, and how we are going to get there. Now, Mr. Chairman, having said that I want to spend a few minutes on this Trans-Canada Highway deal, a few general comments before we get into that particular heading. Nobody will argue, Mr. Chairman, that upgrading and paving of this Trans- Canada Highway is not vital. It is absolutely vital to this Province. It is the major road across the Island, the only one we have.

We do not have the railway for passenger services, but this Trans-Canada Highway without any argument is vital and necessary to the development of this Province. And there is no doubt, Mr. Chairman, that it has been downgraded over the past number of years, and I would say that government has let it happen. A blind man, Hr. Chairman, could have seen what was happening to our Trans-Canada Highway. SOME RON • MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: A blind man could have seen five or six years ago f' ,. what was happening to the Trans-Canada Highway in this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

RIDEOUT: Statistics were telling us about the vast increase, the enormous increase in rubber tire traffic across the Island. We knew that there was a decrease in the amount of freight on the rails and so on. We knew it was coming across the Island in rubber tire vehicles, but we turned a blind eye to it.

And for five or six years the Trans-Canada Highway just went downhill and downhill and deteroriated worse and worse each year, until last year,after cries from the people of this Province and the people who were using it, the government began to wake up and think that, yes,the Trans-Canada Highway certainly is in bad shape, and we have got to try and do something about it. But they let six years go by, Mr. Chairman, before they started at all, or we can only judge by what is being said publicly and what has

April 6, 1978 Tape 647 (Afternoon) PK - 2 Mr. Rideout: happened publicly over the past year, Ehev have let six years go by without spending any substantial sums of money on the Trans-Canada Highway at all. MR. F. WHITE: Too many by-elections. MR. RIDEOUT: And maybe too many by-elections. But the result is now, of course, that it is going to cost us more to reconstruct and upgrade that Trans-Canada Highway than if we had been spending the necessary dollars on it all along. MR. LUSH: They were suppose to be doing it. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Chairman, you will not find me defending the position of the federal government when it comes to the upgrading and reconstruction of our Trans-Canada Highway, you will not find me defending them at all, In fact you would find me saying they are not putting enough into it. I do not mind saying it on the public record, and I do not mind saying it publicly. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: But the whole issue, Mr. Chairman, the whole issue has been clouded by the efforts, as far as I am concerned, of people to make political Brownie points at the expense of this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: No way! MR.

RIDEOUT: First of all they were cries that it was built below standard. Now, Mr. Chairman, that is not true. The Trans-Canada Highway was not built below standard. That really is a slap in the face to the present Deputy Minister of Transportation and his predecessor. It is not true that the Trans-Canada Highway in this Province was built below standard. It was built to a minimum standard, because the first Trans-Canada Highway agreement was a fifty-fifty deal and it was all we could afford. It was all we could afford to build it to a minimum standard. It was built - AN RON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

RIDEOUT: The first deal was. AN RON. MEMBER: He does not know. MR. RIDEOUT: The first Trans-Canada Highway, well that was all we ·' I ~ "

April 6, 1978 Tape 647 (Afternoon) l'K - 3 Mr. Rideout : could afford was the minimum standard. w·e could not build it to the top of the stand ard. We could not afford it, because of the deal . But when we got the 90- 10 deal, ~- Chairman, when we negotiated and got the 90-10 deal,then the sections of the Trans-Canada Highway that were built under that agreement were certainly built to top standard . AN BON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). HR. RIDEOUT: I may be wrong . The minister will get a chance to get i nt o t he debate later on .

I. am not saying I am infallible, but that is what I have been told; the Trans -Canada Highway was not built under standard. It was built to the minimum standard in the first part of the bu.ilding because that was all we could afford, and in the latter deal it was certainly built much better than the first part was built . Take, for example, Mr. Chai=an the piece of Trans- Canad a Highway f rom Badger to Deer Lake . I t is one of the best pieces of Trans - Ca!lQda or TCH in this Province . MR . WHITE: One of the few. this Province. That is still good today. You W1l1 find a scattered ! .t MR.

RIDEOUT: Ye.s, probably one of the few good pieces of TCH in bump, yes. You will find a scattered b u~p in any piece of highway . But it has not deteriorated like you will find on the West Coast from like you would find sections- .ander, Glover town, that are a - pieces I I Georges Brook going o.n to Port aux Basques. It has not: deteriorated '\

April 6,1973 T"-pe tio. 648 A.ll-1 i·lR. RIDOUT: that wera L.H.lilt a long tilae ago under the old fifty-fifty agreement. ~~. Chairman, I am s~ill convinced that this foolish escapade that we saw last year with tl1e efforts to get funds fro~ tile federal government cost this Province tremendously. The foolishness for example of our ~linis~er of Transportation, ~hrowing in !lis hat with the Atlantic Provinces to negotiate a deal on Trans-Canada Highway upgrading.

Hhat nonsense to tl1row our hat i...."'l with the Atlantic Provinces. \{as the minister foolish enough to think ~hat tve .,.ere going Co get­ you know this old adgage of strength in numbers, and you go, the four of us toget;1er and we =y Jet a bette:!: deal. I would submit, ilr. Chai=an, that there was enou;;h evidence, our economic conditions, the ilaportance of the Trans-Canada Highway to tilis Province, the downgrading of ti1e raih;ay in this Province, ~; etvfoundland nacl a case unlike any other pro·.rince of tile Atlantic Provinces.

But what did we do? ';le threw our i1at in ;·,ith those people and we \;ent and of course Ottawa stuck to the fifty-fifty thing and there it stood. Those peo~le obviously thought t~1ere was strenr;t:1 in goir.6 together also ,but wl1en they saw they were not going to get anything better one by one the y began to fall off and sign their agreements with Ottawa and we were left where we are now1 I~ here we should have been a year ago when those negotiations started, going on our own with our own case, our owT. strong case that t.;e had to :lake. .\.nci if that was not baJ cnou6h, :·rr.

C:taimaa, the publicity hound that \·;ent to Ottawa attempting to u~:;otiate a pacl:age on our behalf did ,,tore <lama:;e to our case than probably wor~s can ever say. liere, ~1~re! :·IR. RIUEOUT: :;egotiatiug in the press \.fith Otta;;a, Toe arrogance and conceit and the egoistical approach by a minister

April 9,1978 Tape i:\o. G48 AH-2 :IR, RIDEOUT: on behalf of t his Province. ~m. NEARY: Ti1e deposed and rejecteJ l'inister . :·IR.. RIDEOUT : I am talking about the deposed minister now, not the ?reseat ~inister. AN HON.l1E~E R : (Inaudible) ~.R.. RIDEOUT: Blabber-mouth. A blabber-mouth approach. i1R, :·lORGA ... 'i : I do not even hear you, HR. lGDEOUT: Publicity hound. I ~~ not suggesting for one minute that tile minister is not a hard worker. I have a lot of respect for the minister,but in this particular case t i1e minister blew it. He blew it. ,\:l l:iO". 11E:rBER: Ha is not a negotiator. dR.

RIDEOUT: He is not a negotiator, t11at is righr-. Imagine the minister being responsible = a conciliator Y.'ith union and management. Just imagine it - and talkin g ~bout the r!tinister's colleague. lve lost so much, :lr. Chairman, by tl1e approacn. ~1R. SL'1MONS : The company would go on strike. ~ID.. RIDEOUT: Yes. The company would go on strike. lle lost so much at the approach by this minister, the blabber- mouth approach, the publicity hound approach~ negotiating ia the press, So cuch so, l1r, Chairman, that the Province was told to get rid of him,t~ld that we do not want to see him up here again.

We cannot negotiate with a man like that. Hr. Chairman, we can look around us, otner ~inisters of this gover~1ment have ~ot been like that. Other ministers have made substantial progress and brought home ta..>gible results in diplomatic negotiations with Ottawa . ~J e hav~ seen DREE agreements signed and subsidiary agreements signed. We did not hear the bang, bang, bang confrontation in ti1e press on them every day. . ·~ ~1R. }!ORGAN : who designed (inaudible) f.

April 6,1978 Tape No. 648 Ah-3 HR. RIDEOUT: So!:!e of them. Some of them were signed. The minister may not have negotiated - SOi·!E HO~l. !·iEHBERS: Oh, oh! UR. RIDEOUT: How many agreements did the present l1inister of Tourism sign on DREE roads? ilR.ii.ROHE: Hone. ~IR. RIDEOU"T: How many? :.-1r. Chairman, the truth i1urts. He is listening now because the truth hurts. Other ministers went up there and in a verJ diplocatic and proper fas hion negotiated good deals for this Province. ilut they did not do it by the bang, bang confrontation or situation. HR. lrti!TE : Through the Evening Telegram. i•IR.

RIDEOUT: They did not do it through the Evening Telegram or the ~vening news. It makes ,;cod political Jlrownie ;;>oints, :rr. Chairman, but it brings no dollars into this Province. It does not help the Trans -Canada Highway. kld then, Hr. Chairman, lo and behold what j did we see? We saw this Province signing a fifty-fifty deal I anyway. After all the negotiations, after all the strained 1-, relations, after a full year lost of political wafflc,waffle betwee-.:. the Province and Ottawa. MR. HORGA..'I: Power politics _.He does not know anything about power politic"· MR. RIDEOUT: After all that - Hr.

Chairman, I am not going to bother to ans~:er the ministfr. I made my -:.ecision clear on that in t~1e beginning. "~~ter all ti.1at this government i1aci. the guts to sign a fifty-fifty deal anyway. Anti or. what basis, Hr. Cl:ain1an? l·iLat basis did they sign a fifty-fifty agre£Dent? On tl:e basis of i10pe. They were hoping that t!J.e Sullivan Comt:Us.sicn will make rccmillllelldatic::s that will force Ottawa to increase their

_ ... April 6, 1978, Tape 649, Page 1 -- apb MR. RIDEOUT: Ottawa should be forced in some way into increasng their share for that, but they are signing that agreement on the basis of hope. Now, Mr. Chairman, if that report was not due until next year and another construction season was going to be lost, then there would possibly be some reasonable - people could agree to that. When is the Sullivan Commission Report due? My understanding is any day, a few days. MR. NEARY: This month. MR. RIDEOUT: This month? So why rush into it? We wasted a year anyway.

We want work to begin this year, but could not it have waited for another few days until the report was in the hands of the people in Ottawa? Then if the recommendations were there it would not be necessary to sign this reopener clause. What does the reopener clause say, Mr. Chairman? Both governments have to agree to reopen. That is a nice one to sit on. Maybe Ottawa will never agree to reopen it and we are stuck anyway. So after all year, after a wasted year of negotiations we end up signing a fifty/fifty deal anyway, postponing the inevitable.

The doomsday approach, do so much of it now anyway and we will see what we can get down the road. And, of course, to add insult to injury the last year of the agreement we are going to end up paying seventy-five per cent ourselves when the minister sid we could not afford to pay twenty-five per cent. We are going to end up paying seventy-five per cent ourselves anyway in the final year of the agreement. That is the type of situation we ended up in, Mr. Chairman. I understand my time has elapsed so I will have to come back to this and other matters a little later. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! r.:. ,

April 6, 1978, Tape 649, Page 2 -- apb MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. member for Mount Pearl. MR. N. WINDSOR: Mr. Chairman, just to deal with a couple of points made by the han. member for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout). Dealing first of all, Sir, with the Trans-Canada Highway situation,nobody, Sir, will deny the deplorable condition of that highway at the moment. It is the only road across the Island, of course, and many areas of our Province are heavily dependent upon it.

The han. member talked about standards of highway construction though we all know very well the slogan, Finish the Drive in '65 and the great push that was put on at that particular time. But I do not want to talk about that as much as I do about the standards of design, Sir. In any standard design you have a minimum and a maximum tolerance level. You would design for either minimum standards or maximum standards, normally, possibly in between those standards. I am of the opinion that when the Trans-Canada Highway was built the minimum standard was the one that was used.

But that, Sir, is not even the main problem with our Trans-Canada Highway at the moment. The main problem is that that highway when it was designed was designed for the projected traffic volume that was forseen at that particular time. So that traffic volume particularly, in fact - let me go back a little bit. In designing a highway when your main consideration is the number of tractor-trailer vehicles that travel over that highway in any given period, it is one of the main factors that you consider in designing the strength of your subgrade and your pavement and so forth.

Nobody, Sir, could foresee at that time that CN were going to take the policy that they i t- ' > .

April 6, 1978, Tape 649, Page 3 -- apb MR. N. WINDSOR: have over the past number of years, clear policy, attempting to take freight traffic from the rails in this Province and put it on the highway in tractor-trailers. They have done it with our passenger service, Sir, and I am convinced that they are making every attempt to do it with freight traffic. Sir, the tremendous increase in tractor-trailer traffic in this Province over the past number of years is unquestionably one of the main factors involved in the rapid deterioration of the Trans-Canada Highway.

For that reason, since CN is a federal agency, Sir, I think that the federal government have a tremendous responsibility in this reagrd and should certainly give every consideration to this Province's proposal for a ninety/ten deal. MR. NEARY: Who allowed the Trans-Canada Highway to get torn the way it is? The government is responsible for the Trans-Canada. MR. N. WINDSOR: Certainly we have a certain responsibility formaintenance, but any federal government also has some responsibility when they take action that is directly responsible for the rapid deterioration of that road. MR.

NEARY: Who has the responsibility for regulating the traffic? MR. N. WINDSOR: On the highway? MR. NEARY: Yes. MR. N. WINDSOR: I would say the Province - MR. NEARY: Of course. MR. N. WINDSOR: - in the first instance does. MR. NEARY: Well, then it is the Province is the one that allows it to be torn up. MR. N. WINDSOR: The Province does not control what traffic is coming in here. . '

April 6, 1978, Tape 649, Page 4 -- apb MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. N. WINDSOR: When a !ederal agency takes a policy that dictates that that traffic volmne on that highway increases drastically, then certainly they have a responsibility not only for upgrading, but of maintenance. MR. NEARY: Cannot the Province force tqe freight back on rails by just cutting down on the Trans-canada? MR. N. WINDSOR: No. MR. NEARY : Of course it can. MR. N. WI NDSOR: No. MR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) • MR. NEARY: Oh, lis.ten to lippy, lippy. Listen to lippy. · ~

April 6, 1978 Tape 650 EC - 1 MR. N. WINDSOR: The hon. member, Sir, talked about the proposed 50/50 deal with Ottawa. The hon. gentleman knows full well that for the first year it is a 75/25 deal and scales down from there. I agree with his point that it may lvell balance out at a 50/50 deal; however, he also is well aware of the fact that there is a clause in there - the hon. minister made it very clear the other day that there is a clause in there that opens that contract for renegotiation following the tabling of the Sullivan Commission report. AN RON. MBffiER: Provided both governments agree. MR..

N • Y.'INDSOR: Provided both governments agree. But it is not by any means a closed deal. It does mean that some work will get underway in this Province this year. It means that 75 per cent of the cost of any work this year will be paid by the federal government and it means a heck of a lot of creation of employment - work for construction companies in this Province this year. Somewhat in line with the discussion on the Trans-Canada Highway, Mr. Chairman, would be consideration of the Trans-Labrador Highway, and I do not want to take away anything from what my hon. colleague from Naskaupi (Mr.

Goudie) will undoubtedly be saying about the Trans-Labrador Highway, Sir - AN HON . ME?'ffiER: And Menihek. ~lR.. N • lflt-Tf)SOR: - and the hon. member for Menihek (~r. ~ousseau) and perhaps the hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan).

Give them full marks - I am sure they will have more to say about it and they are much more qualified to talk about Labrador than I am, but I ~•ould like to say, Sir, that having looked briefly at the report on that proposed highway that it would appear to be an extremely desirable thing and it would benefit not only Labrador - it would benefit Labrador, . ~ .I certainly, because it would open up the interior of Labrador, it would tremendously increase the level of communications in the area - but it would certainly facilitate a tremendous flow of traffic, tourists and

April 6, 1978 Tape 650 EC - 2 llR. N. WINDSOR: so forth through Labrador heading to and from the Island part of the Province via the Northern Peninsula Highway which is ,,.ell underway to being completed. Sir, I just want to talk for a moment - and I would ask the hon. minister to address himself to some of these points when he speaks - talk about highways and transportation, Sir, in the Northeast Avalon region which is more directly related to my district of Holliit Pearl.

I do not want to talk directly about Nolliit Pearl at the moment, I will get into that in a future debate - in the Throne Speech debate or something. But I •·mnt to talk about the region, Sir. Sir, in the Northeast Avalon region ,.,e have a population something in the order of 250,000 people within a fifty mile radius of the city of St. John's. Nearly half the population of this Province lives within a fifty mile radius of St. John's.

Sir, I want to give you some figures for what percentage of the budget of the Department of Transportation and Communications spent on highway construction and improvement over the last three years was spent in that region. In the year 1~74 - 1975, 7.2 per cent; in the year 1975 - 1976, 10.7 per cent; in the year 1976 - .. 1977, 19.8 per cent. And, Sir, that is in a region that serves primarily ~ ' one-half, or nearly one-half of our population. And, Sir, I would ask the han. minister to consider that perhaps greater priority be put in this area.

Now, I am not denying the importance of some-of the roads that the hon. member mentioned who spoke earlier~ the Bonavista Loop Road, the Northern Peninsula Road and so forth. Unquestionably these people have a right to paved highways. I am talking about increasing or improving existing paved roads; hon. members in rural areas are talking about paving gravel roads and putting in a . ~ I decent standard of road for people to drive on day in and day out. There is no question that those areas need, and justifiably so, a higher

April 6, 19 78 Tape 650 EC - 3 MR. N. 'IVINDSOR: priority than we can elaim in this particular area. But, Sir, I tb.ink we have to have a good loott at this particular area nqw. There are a number of very seriOus problems that are developing, and if they are not taken in hand in very shQrt order, we are .going to have a very serious traffic problem in this area. When yau have nearly half yaur population in this confined area, the amount of traffic, obviously, is going to be more serious than you Will find in rural areas.

A case in point, the Kenmoun t Road, for instance, which is used now by thousands and thousands of people daily travelling to and from the city. In the peak hours it is just unbelievable what you have to experience out there. I am talking about people travelling from Conception Bay South or from }~unt Pearl to the he.art of the city.

As an example, crt Monday morning of this week, I think it was, l: left my home at twenty minutes after eight and arrived in this building at twenty-five minutes to ten. and I did not stop anywhere, I did not take any s'ide roads - I drove directly out Topsail Road, otit the Kenmount Road and down the Prince Philip Parkway - better than I

April 6, 19713 Tape ;;0 • 651 :1;1 - 1 HR. ~. W'TNDSOR: a.."1 :1our and a :-:.al£ -:a 2;~t to t~!e office.. And it tool~ Ule an hour .:1nd ten :J.i.nut-2s to 6et l1o:J.e. ~:R. DOOD~. Lio t~1e Liinist:er a favour by not getting into that one this .:f::eraoon 1 but I 11ill at a lat.:e.r date. And we !:.ave already discussed c;1at :hat is a pro';:;le::J., :::~e lzvel of service and the suof,i clesring OtJerations on Comrr:.ontJe~lt~:. ... '....ver..ue. :::t is one uf t.:~2 ~ost critical hills in the area and I ~1ave discussad it ~·:ith t:.e minister and ,,;e will ;,e discussing it even furtl:er.

I have mentioned some figures of dollar3 and cents that were spent in this area i.l'l the last three or four years . . \ :1i~h portion of those,by the Hay, 1;ere spent on the !iarbour Arterial J.o:J.d, which I support. It is going to tal•e an CJ.wful lot of tractor trailer traffic of£ Topsail !toad ant! ~~eDIJOU....""lt Road, traffic going fro::J. the port of St. John's ::a rural areas by the Trans-Canada :Iighuay and to Donovans Industrial and so fortl1. But the Ilarbour Arterial Road in itself, Sir, does not fullfil its complete role.

Unless· the C:rosLtmm arterial road is built then that Harbour Arterial :e:.oad ,;111 be only half as effective as it really should be. oc:,er t:1an tractor trailer traffic, tl1e main flou of traffic in tl1e i region is from North to South, not from East to Hest. So you have a tremzndous problem of people from the Southern Shore area, from the area the l1on. member for Ferryland (:-lr. C. Power) r.opr::!sen::s, ~ .. from l~ilbride area, and from llount Pearl ns •,;ell, travelling "o l.

Con5ecleration Iluilding and the Hemorial l:niversity :md the f' , Trad.~s Colle:;e an(! very shortly tl"-.e l!ealth Sciences Comple:: is going ~o Gvcn increase that further. ,_':'nless t~u~.t cu.ter ri:1g ro2.d is built, you uill never upgrade the roaois in t':le City of St. John'.s to a :otnnJard that would accomro10date the amount of traffic th<1t we nm.J have and that we certainly '"ill have even greater increases in that regard in the future. Sir, ''e have heard a lot of talk about an i •

April 6, 1978 651 ~r.r - 2 · :·!R.N.WINDSORo:: outer ring road; obviously that is the ultimate solution. It is going to take so!f.e time undoubtedly to builcl a high=y that is zoing to cost that ouch. 'r.le City of St. John's is basically designed, if yo:.~ ever look at an aerial plan or a map of the City of St. John's, you "ill see it is 'basically a ring radial type c•::mfigurn tion tm . .,-, planners talk about with che central core bei~g the harbour and 'later Street area and you have radial type roads leauing from that to the suburban areas of t:te city.

Prince Philip Park;.;ay,in front of this building, <lhen it 1-1as built t<as basically an outer ring road, that is wha~ it w·as designed for. And no1-1 it is rig.'1t in the middle of the city and 1-1e are now talking about builc.ling another outer ring road uhich uill take high speec! traffic around the city and greatly reduce t!1e anount of traffic 1nthin the city streets itself, travelling just froo one side of the city to the other. So just those few remarks, ~!r. Cheir=n. I woulcl ask the hon. minister if he 1·7ould make a few co=ents on those when he speaks. l'1R. RIDEOUT: :·!r.

Chai=an, I just have a couple of more points that I 1vant tc get into before the minister starts to respond to some items that we have raised and we will get those off. I dealt with the Trans-Canada High11ay situation and a general policy for transportation 11i thin the province. Also, ::r.

Chairman, there has been a nu:-.~ber of iJOir:ts coT:1.a to my attention this ?ast £e"i·T days as S?okesv..a:t for trar..sportationiu this party. ~··!iti.i. r~f;.s.rds to this La~r~Cor Coast to tra~sport e~~ip~ent i~to snall connunities to carry out road work in those co=:.~nitie;; alor.g the Labrador Coast and som., of !:he stories that ;tave rec~ntly ~een cor:oing to me about th.is Labrador .I barge I would hope t:1at the ·.:rinister could reply in some detail after "e 'brin;; up a fe! ·; po ir.ts on it.

'·? "::" il ~. , 1 97:1 T.:p~ ~!o . ~ 5 1 .r.: .

J :~ . ~D GOlJT: t.':is barge is und er cile aes olut e cont::- ol of be ::i .;;ll;.;ays ' ivisio ~ .. ~ Deer Lat-e . :lo•.; I :io not ko.o« -::hat logi s tical s.anse t ~\ at: m.al~ e s ~'-I t ;uy ir.fo= atio n tells !:!a th c -·.is ::a r g i s ur.der t:!': con t::-ol of ::r . ·.:~s . ~ob ert s ;; :o· is ::: "' _ do no t kno,; ~h a t i1 is :: i t.!.e U:, - ist rict su? e rvis or , o r so= t:. i:::12; I s upr.ose li::e t~:J.t , ·n -eer · 1.:!!. . :lot• I cio not ·mo., wl::at lc ~~: istical se:1se i:a : mak.o.s ·-u;: Ull:f'~:J.y 1 ~e ~!t a c. 2s i :. uay I unde r sc.:1nd that tha t is t:·ul situat:.o:l.

I ~nc.;.;!rs a d a.:.so t!: at c..'le epar t!:!ent cc:H:r :act:s ou t: t.."le tatoing ·

., April 6, 1971:i Tape 652 DW - 1 HR. .tl.IDEOU'i:: services for this particular barge every year and that they let a contract out to some person who i1as a vessel that can do ti1e job and he goes down there and he spends X numuer of days towing this barge waerever it is necessary up and down the Labrador coast. 'Ihis year I am told that the barge has to be brought into Harystown for repairs, But instead of having that done when tile work .,.as completed down there this year, ,.;hich seems to me would be the most efficient and logical ~,·ay to do it to tow it into harystown tllis fall so that the work could be carried on during the winter and it could be carried back again in the spring, the barge was left in Goose Hay and now somebody has to go down there in the Si'ring,special trip down, still has to be towed back to ~larystown and then to•ved back down the Labrador coast again after the repairs are carried out.

Of course the obvious question is this, Mr. Cnairman~ when are the communities along the Labrador coast going to be able to avail of tile services of that barge so that the necessary road construction can be carried out in those communities ? It is a very - ·you know,we have all kinds of problems in transportation along the Labrador coast especially as far as air services and that go •. My colleague from Eagle River, I am sure,will deal with these in ·.acre detail later on.

But tllis barge is very important to tile communities along that coast,' The only vay that they Cllll get the machinery in there is by bringing it iu on this paricular barge. So, you know,the inefficiency of the syst.:m to allow that piece of vital equipment to atay over tile winter period frozen in the ice in Goose Bay area,when they knew full well it had to come to Harystown-that was decided last fall. It i1ad to come for repairs.

It could not operate another season without them - i1ad to come to Harystowr: for repairs-Now we lLave to go down there in the s;>ring of the year when the navigation season opens,tow it oack up,~ave the repairs done and,I understand,tow it back down again so that it can go to work.~ow what kind of sense Jees that make? To me it loes not make very much sense as regards to planning and especially as far as providing those .people on the coast with the barge so that they can work done on their roads along ti:le coast this

April u, 1978 Tape b.:i2 DW - 2. hR. RID !:.OuT : year. And also, Mr. Chairman, I would like tne minister to make note of the i{orth West River bridge. I under- stand tnat there is - even though this was supposed to be done in a DREE agreement,I understand that there is a lot of i~,there is a great deal of cost overruns when the tenders came in,and nothing has been settled so far as to whether or not this vital transportation link is going to get off the ground or not this year.

So I would like the minister to fill us in on what is happening with regards to negotiations to get the ~ortn West River Bridge off and running this construction season. Now, Nr. Chairman, for the next few minutes I w=t to return a .i.ittle closer to home.I think I have probably covered tne most general areas that I wanted to cover in my opening remarks and my other colleabues will be bringing out their own points as we go along.iS.ut I want to return a little closer to home.

The minister in his opening ' remarks made reference to the absolute necessity of upgrading and paving l roads on the Baie Verte Penninsula because of the recognized health hazard • f to people living on that peninsula due to asbestos contamination of the road dust. And I agree, Hr. Chairman, with the minister~or with some of the points made by the minister in his remarks that,you know~eve'\1 though it i.s a recog- nized and admitted nealth hazard by the greatest of authorities,that still does not mean tnat the problem can be solvec overnignt.~one of us expect that, out we are very sensitive, Hr.

Chairman, to commitments 1anci des;:>ite the lone; hare: i.>attl£< that we had to ,;et any co=itumts ~o:e are very sensitive to commi t...ents •. -lnd tnere is no doubt about it ,commitments have been t.:ade to spe:.:ai suostantial sum.;; of money in tl1at part of ti1e Province this year. ;-low there is no good getting into old hassles of the last session or the session before an<l say like it should have been s>·.ent anyway and that kind of stuff • '.l:hefact is it was not.But the government has finally accepted the recommendations of the Selikoff report . :t was presented in this building in December the final draft of the re;>ort came to g.:vernment as we.ll as it ala to tne rest ot us ~ti•e union, company and myself and .so on in January with tl1e writ ten recommend- ~tionR ~ttar.h~d to thPm. ~nd from a transoortation asoect one of the west ~"~ortant

April 6, 1978 Tape 6S2 Dl{ - 3 HR. RIDEOUT: recommendations \las that certain roads on the .t:iaie Verte Penninsula be upgraued anci paved. ciow it tooi: a long tillle for that to sink in, Hr. Chairman, but it f::.aally s.mk in and it appears that the govern:Qent has accepted the I . I . ,. J ~ .

April 6, 1978 Tape 653 (Afternoon) PK- 1 Mr. Rideout: principle involved that those roads have to be done. And as I said in the beginning,we know it cannot be done in one year, we know it cannot even be done in two years, but we want to know beyond any doubt what the plans are for doing those roads and we want them done as quickly as possible. I think it is fair to say that, and I would be derelict in my duties as the representative of that area if I did not say it. We want them done as quickly as possible, but recognizing the fact that it cannot be done overnight. Back in December, Mr.

Chairman, the Selikoff report - I may be close to twenty minutes - back in December the Selikoff report finally went to Cabinet. Now before the report went to Cabinet it was still the contention of the minister of the day that he still did not know what Dr. Selikoff was talking about. You know, that is another debate and I will not get into it. But the report finally did go to Cabinet in December. As a matter of fact, I believe it went to Cabinet on December 17. Up to December 16 the minister was still saying that I see no reason having n.ot I l' '· heard from Dr.

Selikoff or have not had recommendations from him and . : so on, that we should do anything above the ordinary with those roads. But, but, but MR. MORGAN: I was waiting all year (inaudible). MR. RIDEOUT: I am not criticizing you for that. But, if the recommendations come in then we are certainly going to have to look at it and do something about it. The minister talked about a $20 million upgrading and paving programme for the Baie Verte Peninsula. Well certainly that would include every inch of road on the Peninsula, and in time it will have to be done.

But the minister talked about a $5.5 million to $6 million for this year, in the coming year,to pave Seal Cove to ·l .I Wild Cove and Baie Verte to Fleur de Lys and Coachman's Cove, and every resident there knows that, Mr. Chairman, every resident on Fleur de Lys and Coachman's Cove, Seal Cove and Wild Cove,and we were as proud as peacocks because the Minister of Transportation told us. Now that was the day before the Cabinet meeting, even though he had not accepted the

April 6, 1978 Tape653 (Afternoon) PK - 2 Mr. Rideout: fact, even though there was still some doubt about whether it would be accepted and so on. But the day after the Cabinet meeting,December 17, the minister was interviewed and the headlines were "Morgan decides to pave roads". I will read a few passages from this that will probably drive the point home. MR. MORGAN: Quote properly now. MR. RIDEOUT: I will quote properly. I will table it and the minister can read it himself.

"In a surprise change of heart Transportation Minister '; - the han. member for Bonavista South - "says paving of roads on the Baie Verte Peninsula where asbestos dust is posing a health hazard" - this is difficult to read because it is not a good copy - "will get underway in 1978. Engineers will begin testing what needs to be done early in the New Year" - I understand they have been at that - "with a view to getting much of the paving work included in the 1978-1979 estimates,Morgan said last night". Now that is what we are doing now, right? ~he 1978-1979 estimates. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR.

RIDEOUT : With much - hold on now,it is explained a little bit better than that way down in some quotes, "Top priority will be given to two particularly asbestos dust laden roads,the one from Fleur de Lys to Coachman's Cove and the road from Baie Verte to Seal Cove to Wild Cove. In the past,stating government has no proof paving of the roads in the area is required from the area's population's heaith, Morgan indicated last night that this move to commence paving was prompted by the recent visit by New York occupational health expert Dr. Irving Selikoff".

And then they go on to talk about the dust counts and so on. The second last para:graph,"He has mentioned the $20 million figure for the work that needs to be done but last night said there could be a $5 million expenditure in the next year". Now, Mr. Chairman, we want to know.-$5 million is a substantial amount of money; I would say it could possibly do though · I have no way of knowing 1- but $5 million would go a lonR way to doing the work what needs to ~e done on those two roads. i I j I r

April 6, 1978 Tape 653 (Afternoon) PK - 3 MR. RIDEOUT: I want to know while we are doing those estimates how much money is earmarked in the estimates for the upgarding and the paving of those roads on the Baie Verte Peninsula. Two different days, the day before the Cabinet meeting, the day after the Cabinet meeting the minister then beyond doubt~and I hope that the minister is not going to get up and say it is a misquote, because I am coming to the conclusion that it must be a government of misquotes; every time you quote something, Ah, it is taken out of context. MR· MQRGAN: r did not sav 'misouote'. .I I l' f • t o l .t

April 6, 1978, Tape 654, Page 1 -- apb MR. RIDEOUT: not so far, not so far. I hope the minister does not do that. I know that there had to be liquid calcium put on some parts of those roads this year and other roads on the Baie Verte Peninsula. I know that, because you will not be able to do it all even if you wanted to, I wo~ld submit. But are we going to get the $5 million or $6 million spent on those roads this year instead of dragging it out over four or five years? With $5 million or $6 million this year and $5 million or $6 million next year, the job can be completed.

I do not think it will take that much over two years, my sources tell me. Are we going to get that? Or are we going to get the bandaid approach? A million this year for two roads, a million next year for two roads, a million the year after for two roads and five or six years down the road you may get the job done. Now is that the commitment? I think we have a right to know, Mr. Chairman. The people down there are anxiously waiting.

I asked the present minister in this House shortly after the session opened when he intended to call tenders and he told me,hopefully,very early in the season so that work could get underway without any undue delay, and I know the minister will do that. But unless you have some money to spend, then the calling of tenders very early is not the important point.

We want to know how much money is going to be spent on those roads, and if it is anything short of $5 million then the special consideration, and the special grant, the special Cabinet allocation that the former minister was walking about, if it is anything less than that then I will challenge the minister - and I am sure that I will be backed by people on the Baie Verte Peninsula - I will challenge the minister, Mr. Chairman, to honour his public commitment to those people

April 6, 1978, Tape 654, Page 2 -- apb Mr. Rideout: and resign. I will challenge the minister if there is anything less than $5 mil~ion allocated in the Budget for those roads - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. RIDEOUT: - then the minister's public commitment, not once or twice, but a dozen times during the whole debate on the health hazards on the Baie Verte Peninsula, not once but a dozen times the minister made that commitment. He made it in the House. I checked Hansard, it is in the record. He made it to G.ele~ations, he made it on the air, he made it in the print media.

So if there is anything less than $5 million in the estimates for that work this year. MR. MORGAN: Do not be so foolish . MR. RIDEOUT: Do not be so foolish~ Mr. Chairman, that minister made the commitment. ~IR. NEP.RY: He did not know what he was doing. MR. RIDEOUT: That minister told a delegation from Seal Cove and Fleur de Lys that if Dr. Selikoff recommended beyond any doubt that it must be done hewcul~ go for a special Cabinet allocation. AN RON. MEMBER: Right on! MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order. Mr.

Chairman, I '1ave to ~],arify it ~ because the hon. gentleman is now putting in the record incorrect information about statements made by myself. MR. E.IDEOUT: That is not incorrect. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, the fact is I a~ en a point of order foi . clarification - the point is that I did say publicly and I did say in the House of Assembly that if any concrete evidence was put forward by Dr.

Selikoff's report indicating that there was any health hazard or danger to health as a result of a possibility of -.sbestosis, in road dust on the Baie Verte Peninsula roads that I would take the matter to my colleagues in Cabinet. I also said that the government would deal with the matter as MR. NEARY: A quorum call. Your -Honour has to rise the Committee when there is no quroum. I \ I· j

April 6, 1978 , Tape 654, Page 3 -- apb MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG) : Order, please! Continue on your point of order. MR. NEARY: Is there a quorum? MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): Yes, we have a quorum. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG) : Fourteen is a quorum. \-le have fourteen. MR. MORGAN: We have a quorum. Okay, Mr. Chairman. Stop playing games on the other side in the House of Assembly . HR. RIDEOUT: Fourteen is a quorum. MR.

MORGAN: They can ma.ke their abusive attacks , but they cannot listen to the information from the other side of the House. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! Order, please! You cannot interrupt when another person is speaking unless you are recognized. I will ask the han. minister to continue on his point of order. MR. MORGAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The point I was making is when they want to get infon11ation of the Hcuse,correct information they leave the House. The fact is that the information given by me was stated publicly and also in this House on record in Hansard.

I said that the government would give the matter special consideration based on the fact that it could be a potential health hazard. I also said that government would attempt to find funds to commence the paving of roads this year. MR. CHAIRMAN: (MR. YOUNG) : Order, please! I would ask the hon. minist~r to make his point of order a little shorter, please. MR. MORGAN: Well the point of order, Mr. Speaker, I want to clarify the statement that has been made which is not true, ana I am o:ivi _ne> fn!" the record of this House the correct information. . ~ MR. RIDEOUT: On a point of privilege, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I will hear the point of privilege.

April 6, 1978 Tape 654, Page 4 -- apb MR. RIDiBOUT: Mr. Chairman, I am all for hearing the minister clarifying, but he will have twenty minutes to make a speech the same as I have. And I would submit that the minister is using the guise of a point of order to make an explanation of the charges that I have made. Now the minister will have twenty minutes to do that after I sit down. It is not a point of order. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, there is no point of privilege. And my point of order is still on the floor. AN HON. MEMBER: Well let us have a ruling. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Chairman, the point I am making -:-Mr.

Chairman, if the non. gentleman wants to make accusations about statements made by me I want these statements tabled in the House of Assembly. lolR. RIDEOUT: You have got twenty minutes to reply. MR. CHAIRMAN (MR. YOUNG): Order, please! I feel I can rule on the point of order which will also explain your point of privilege. I feel it is not a point of order it is more or less a point of explanation, and I would ask the hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay to continue. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman, - I .I MR. MORGAN: Table the evidence. ! MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman, what - MR.

MORGAN: If I was anntPtll in the Evening Tele:;ram, table the evidence. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Chairman, look at the Bonavista Yahoo going ·-of.f his head again. The minister - well I cannot say that, it is ·I unparliamentary - the minister who had the gall to tell a delegation of five people fro~ Seal Cove and Wild Cove that if it is recommended beyond doubt by Dr. Selikoff that there is a health hazard in your area we will find the money or I will resign from the Cabinet. That is right. MR. RIDEOUT: Five people can back that up. MR. MORGAN: That is right! I did say that. MR.

RIDEOUT: The minister who had the gall to tell a delegation

April 6, 19 78 Tape 655 IB-1 ~1R. RIDEOUT: including the parish priest from Fleur de Lys and Coachman's Cove, the same thing. And then he asks me to table my evidence. MR. MORGAN: I did not say $5 million though. MR. RIDEOUT: The minister said $5 million or $6 million in here. HR. ~!ORGAN: Give evidence. MR. RIDEOUT : That is the evidence and the minister has said it to people, to those delegations that I am talking about. Now weasel out of it, Mr. Chairman. He weaseled out of one resignation the other day when the Premier c:.ame back and cracked the whip and you have not heard him since.

Well weasel out of this one. There are enough people down there to take the minister to task for this. Mr. Chairman, this is a very, very important situation. I thought the minister appreciated it and I thought that we could count on his substantial support in Cabinet as he told us he would. Now if it is $1 million or $1.5 million for those roads, then I would say that that is not good enough in view of the situation that exists down there. We do not want all the money. We do not expect it to be done in one year but we want a substantial start made, and I think we deserve it.

And this minister or the former minister has led us to believe beyond any doubt that we are going to get it. I would hope that the minister who has inherited his portfolio and who is a member of that r.ahinet will not let us down, and will make sure that 'ie get our fair share. Pe are not talking about upgrading a road for a fish plant's sake or anything else, as important as that is, we are talking about uograding and paving a road to save peoples' lives. Now, how can you argue against that? That is how important it is and for anybody to try to weasel out of a commitment on that, !·fr.

Chairman, is despicable beyond words. well expired. Now I understand my time is pretty I would like to call a quorum, Mr. Chairman.

April 6, 1978 Tape 655 IB-2 MR. ~EARY: No quorum, Mr. Chairman. You have to rise the Committee when there is no quorum. AN RON. MEMBE1l.: There is a quorum call, }!r. Chairman. MR. HICKl!AN: No, no quorum call. MR. CHAIRMAN: I have not heard a quorum call. A quorum call. MR. ~EA.'l.Y : l~en a quorum call is made in Committee of the !~ole, Sir, Your Honour has no choice but to rise the Committee when there is no quorum. MR. HICKMAN: On a point of order. There was no quorum call as Your Honour so properly pointed out.

There was an hen. gentleman who tried to make a quorum call from outside the confines of this .'.ssembly. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Chai~n, to that ~oint of order, Sir. There was a quorum call. My han. friend got up and counted the House after I called a quorum and according to Beauchesne, Sir, Your Honour has no choice when there is no quorum in the House but to rise the Committee. And Your Honour can send for the record, can send for the transcript. MR. CHAIR}I'..AN: Order, please! I will wait for three minutes and then I will call a quorum. MR. NEARY: No, Mr.

Chairman, under the rules of Committee of the ~tole on Supply, Sir, Your Honour has no choice but to rise the Committee. AN ROIL l!ID!BER: Call order boy. -"-"'R. CRAIRNAN: Order, please! I have not recognized the hen. member. ~- :10RG.!\N: !-fR. NEARY : MR. CHAIR}I~T: ~!r. Chairman - I am up on a point of order. Sit down 'Yahoo· . ~~~~~=-~~~~~~~ I am sorry I cannot hear a point of order. three