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December 13, 2001

37th Parliament, 2nd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

vol. A

Hansard Transcripts

vol. B

Votes and Proceedings

Orders and Notices

Hansard Transcripts 2001-Dec-13 (PDF)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ONTARIO

ASSEMBLÉE LÉGISLATIVE DE L'ONTARIO

Thursday 13 December 2001 Jeudi 13 décembre 2001

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

NIKKEI HERITAGE DAY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LE JOUR

DU PATRIMOINE NIKKEI

GRAVESITES OF FORMER

PREMIERS ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001

SUR LES LIEUX DE SÉPULTURE

DES ANCIENS PREMIERS MINISTRES

NIKKEI HERITAGE DAY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LE JOUR

DU PATRIMOINE NIKKEI

GRAVESITES OF FORMER

PREMIERS ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001

SUR LES LIEUX DE SÉPULTURE

DES ANCIENS PREMIERS MINISTRES

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE POLICIES

ACHIEVEMENTS OF PREMIER

ONTARIO MUNICIPAL BOARD

ACHIEVEMENTS IN

TORONTO-DANFORTH

SANTA CLAUS PARADES IN

DUFFERIN-PEEL-WELLINGTON-GREY

CONSTRUCTION LABOUR MOBILITY

ACHIEVEMENTS OF PREMIER

AUTOMATION OF SOCIAL

ASSISTANCE SYSTEM

EID UL-FITR

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE

ON JUSTICE AND SOCIAL POLICY

MOTIONS

HOUSE SITTINGS

COMMITTEE

SCHEDULE

VISITORS

TRIBUTES TO THE PREMIER

LEGISLATIVE PAGES

ORAL QUESTIONS

CANCER TREATMENT

HOME CARE

COMPETITIVE ELECTRICITY MARKET

CANCER TREATMENT

AFFORDABLE HOUSING

EMPLOYMENT STANDARDS LEGISLATION

ONTARIO DRUG BENEFIT PROGRAM

ONTARIO'S LIVING LEGACY

MUNICIPAL WATER AND SEWAGE

SYSTEMS LEGISLATION

TOXIC WASTE TRANSPORT

PROGRESS OF SANTA CLAUS

HEALTH CARE FUNDING

PROBATION AND PAROLE SERVICES

SPECIAL EDUCATION

LABOUR DISPUTE

LEGISLATIVE USHERS

PETITIONS

SCHOOL CLOSURES

CHILD CARE

CRUELTY TO ANIMALS

LONDON HEALTH SCIENCES CENTRE

ADOPTION DISCLOSURE

ORDERS OF THE DAY

REMEDIES FOR ORGANIZED CRIME

AND OTHER UNLAWFUL

ACTIVITIES ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LES RECOURS

POUR CRIME ORGANISÉ

ET AUTRES ACTIVITÉS ILLÉGALES

COMMUNITY CARE ACCESS

CORPORATIONS ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LES SOCIÉTÉS

D'ACCÈS AUX SOINS COMMUNAUTAIRES

HEALTH PROTECTION AND PROMOTION

AMENDMENT ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 MODIFIANT LA LOI

SUR LA PROTECTION ET LA PROMOTION

DE LA SANTÉ

VISITORS

COMMUNITY CARE ACCESS

CORPORATIONS ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LES SOCIÉTÉS

D'ACCÈS AUX SOINS COMMUNAUTAIRES

Thursday 13 December 2001 Jeudi 13 décembre 2001

The House met at 1000.

Prayers.

PRIVATE MEMBERS' PUBLIC BUSINESS

NIKKEI HERITAGE DAY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LE JOUR

DU PATRIMOINE NIKKEI

Mr Wettlaufer moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 140,

An Act to proclaim Nikkei Heritage Day / Projet de loi 140, Loi proclamant le Jour du patrimoine Nikkei.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): The member for Kitchener Centre has up to 10 minutes for his presentation.

Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener Centre): This is another bill that I'm presenting in the interests of my interest in multiculturalism, but in no

way do I want to take away from the importance of this particular one. While it celebrates cultural diversity, it also celebrates the Nikkei heritage. I would like to start off by reading part of a

letter that I received from Betty Moritsugu, who is the chair of Nikkei Heritage Day, 2001. She says:

"Dear Mr Wettlaufer,

"On behalf of the committee, thank you very much for considering a private member's bill this session to establish our heritage day as a provincial observance.

We are also most grateful to the Honourable David Tsubouchi for supporting your proposal....

"The name of the day: we have called it Nikkei Heritage Day from the outset seven years ago to make it clear, at least within our community, that this is a

celebration of Japanese-Canadian heritage with no direct connection to current-day Japan. (`Nikkei' means `overseas Japanese' and is used by us to mean the Canadian variety, of course. `Nikkei'

also is a short word that easily fits newspaper headlines.) `Japanese Heritage Day' does not make that distinction, which is why it has not been used from the start. If absolutely necessary,

`Japanese-Canadian Heritage Day' could be used, but for publicity and promotion purposes it is somewhat cumbersome.

"Nikkei Heritage Day is not celebrated on the same day in September each year. Rather, for the convenience of the attendees, it is held on the Sunday nearest to

the anniversary of the Japanese-Canadian redress settlement of September 22, 1988. We hope the floating date of the observance will not clash with the terms of provincial recognition."

Japanese immigration to Canada began in 1877. It was not unlike other ethnocultural immigrations to Canada. They came here for the prospects of greater wealth

and opportunity. They brought with them their talents, whether they be agricultural or fishing, but also craftsmen and traders. Many at that time were unskilled, but those who came to Ontario were

not unskilled. They were the professionals of their day.

The initial immigration was young, male and single, but later these young men brought their wives over, they had children and they put down roots. By 1941, 60%

of the Japanese community was Canadian-born. While many of them, as I said before, were low-skilled, the others were not low-skilled. Nevertheless, all of them held down low-paying jobs. They

didn't receive any more than a half to two thirds of the pay that whites received in comparable jobs.

In 1922, the federal government had limited the number of fishing licences that would be issued to Japanese, therefore limiting their opportunities. The

Japanese, whether they were born here or whether they came here as first peoples, the Issei, were subjected to racism. They were considered slightly better than blacks, but they were considered

definitely less than whites. Early immigrants to Canada were denied the right to vote, with the exception of the few military veterans after World War I.

We have the second generation, the Nisei, who were born in Canada. They were not unlike other Canadians. They wanted what the whites wanted, they were motivated

by materialist values, success in chosen careers, and many of them earned university degrees. Nevertheless, the good jobs were still closed to them.

I'd like to focus for a moment on the cultural shock that all immigrants have. Parents come here and they know their own culture. The children don't know the

culture, especially those who are born in Canada. But in the Japanese culture, the kin the family, was most important. Women were submissive to men, marriages were arranged, children were supposed

to be submissive to their parents' authority and their conduct was always according to the dictates of family honour. Imagine the culture shock. But the Nisei put family traditions behind them and

adopted Canadian practices.

Then of course, we had World War II, and this is where I think my interest stems from this issue. About 15 or 20 years ago, I was travelling on a highway out

west and it happened to go right beside where the Japanese Canadians were interned. These Japanese Canadians lost all of their property, they lost all of their assets; the William Lyon Mackenzie

King government of the day didn't have enough money, it said, to pay for the internment of these immigrants, so their own assets were used to pay for it.

I looked at the conditions that the Japanese Canadians suffered in this internment camp in Canada, and it was not unlike those conditions that Canadians suffered

overseas in concentration camps, in internment camps. I thought, how is it that this happened right here in Canada?

After the war, most of the Japanese were moved from the west to Ontario. They were dispersed throughout Canada, but most of them came to Ontario. Four thousand

of them were actually deported to Japan. The Japanese Canadians, the Nisei, were absorbed into the social fabric of Canada. They were integrated. They intermarried.

Then, of course, we have the Sansei, who are the third generation. They, as well, have become even more integrated and have intermarried even more. They are the

grandchildren. They receive formal instruction in Japanese folk arts in order to learn their Japanese culture, again, much like other cultural groups who have come to Canada, because folk arts are

no longer an automatic part of their culture.

Once victims of racism, bias and few in number, the Japanese Canadians have succeeded in life like very few others. In one of the books I was reading, I couldn't

help but recall the 1976 Grey Cup game. I remember Bill Hatanaka running back a record-setting punt return in the Grey Cup game. But there are many other Japanese Canadians who have succeeded

beyond all belief.

Yuki Yoshida, who is from Montreal and Toronto, won an Academy Award in 1977 as the co-producer of a short-subject live-action movie.

Our own David Tsubouchi, who is Chair of Management Board now and has served in many other capacities, is a success story right here in Ontario.

We can't forget the martial arts and the discipline that the Japanese Canadians have brought to this country. My own daughter took one of the forms of martial

arts. There is no doubt in my mind that the discipline of that martial arts training has contributed to her success.

Where once the Issei, the unskilled, immigrated to Canada, we now have a new generation of Japanese, the Shin-Ijusha, coming to Canada. They are the best

educated and most highly trained overseas immigrants coming to our country.

Toyo Takata ends his book Nikkei Legacy by saying, "No other community of Canadians faced a greater challenge and endured. Indeed, they triumphed." I don't know

if any other community of Canadians faced a greater challenge, but certainly they faced a major one, and they did endure and triumph.

Mr James J. Bradley (St Catharines): I appreciate the opportunity to participate in the discussion this morning on what I think will be a

non-controversial and multi-partisan debate, I don't say non-partisan, I say multi-partisan, because all members of the Legislature will want to join in the support of this legislation,

An Act to

proclaim Nikkei Heritage Day.

The member for Kitchener has outlined a history which is checkered in this country, a history of Japanese Canadians in this country: checkered because of the

early experiences and the experiences during wartime that people of Japanese descent had within the confines of the country we know as Canada; indeed, within North America.

To jump right into one specific issue, I've listened to some of the interviews that have taken place with people who have been elected to various offices in

Canada and the United States. I was watching the other day, about a month ago, I suppose, an interview with a Japanese American legislator on that occasion, who described the experience of his

family, the circumstance being that here were people who were in Canada and were of Japanese descent and were good strong Canadians, who were placed under suspicion by the government and by many in

the population simply because they happened to be of Japanese descent, although they resided in Canada. Canada is a country that over the years, and particularly in recent years, has welcomed

people from all around the world. We expect, and we have found this to be the experience, that overwhelmingly the people who come here become part of the Canadian fabric. They are individuals who

contribute as individuals, rather than as people of a particular descent or ethnicity, though we always hope and encourage, in our country, that they will share their heritage with others.

Certainly the experience of many Japanese Canadians, particularly in wartime, in the Second World War, had to be one that was tempered with a lot of

disappointment. Even in communities such as St Catharines, I am told by people of Japanese descent, good friends of mine in St Catharines, they were told they weren't wanted. There were people

within the communities who did not want people of Japanese descent in St Catharines and in other communities. I found that astounding I suppose because that era had passed as far as I was

concerned. I was particularly disappointed to hear that and, as I say, astounded to hear that.

There's an old saying, "Some of my best friends are...," and coincidentally some of my best friends indeed are people of Japanese descent, very good friends of

mine whom I encountered through growing up and in high school in St Catharines, as personal friends and people who have worked on my campaigns over the years. So I've had a pipeline to some of the

history of Japanese Canadians. Although there is not a concerted effort to reflect on a daily basis on those experiences, if you're prepared to ask, people of Japanese descent will share with you

what they experienced, particularly during time of war.

We recognize that during a time of war things happen that are very difficult for people who happen to be of an ethnicity where perhaps their ancestors, perhaps

even some of their relatives, in another country may be at war with us. But to see people taken from their homes and put in internment camps simply because they were of a particular ethnicity, in

this particular case Japanese, as you reflect on that today, you reflect with a good deal of concern and sorrow that in a democratic country such as Canada, which supposedly welcomed people from

around the world, that would be the case.

The member for Kitchener mentioned voting rights. He will correct me with a nod or a no -- was it not until 1947, I notice, that voting rights were granted to

people of Japanese descent after the war? Here again are people who have been Canadians first. When I speak to my friends who are of Japanese descent, when you cross a border to go to a hockey game

or something of that nature, of course they say "Canadian," because they are Canadian. Everything about them is Canadian. There is not a denial of ancestry at all, but they are Canadian, just as

all of us adopt that Canadian mode, particularly as we're here for longer periods of time.

Japanese Canadians, as other Canadians, and as my friends in the Japanese community, would not want me to stand in this House and extol the virtues of the

Japanese as though they're the only people who have done these things, but I'm going to tell you that from a position of being shunted aside and treated not particularly well in their early days in

this country, to today, we have seen the kind of integration, the kind of progress, the kind of involvement in various aspects of out community that we would want to see for people of Japanese

descent.

The member focused, and he did this with another bill that he brought before the House, on the role that individuals from one community, as we say, have played

in this country. Many countries in the world over the years -- it's changing now -- have excluded people from other countries. They've really wanted to be a country where the people were all of one

ethnicity. Others were looked down upon and there were immigration barriers that were set up.

Canada, and to a certain extent the United States as well, being in the New World, have welcomed people from other countries. So when you walk down the streets

of Toronto or Montreal or Vancouver -- I say this because it's usually the larger cities immigrants tend to come to to begin with; that seems to be the tendency -- you will see that we have people

from around the world in this country now.

We benefit immensely from that. I know it's a hard adjustment for some, particularly for those who live in communities where everybody looks the same and may be

from a similar background. They sometimes wonder whether this is the route we should go. Of course we recognize the huge benefits that immigrants have brought to this country over the years.

Jim Coyle, in one of his columns in the Toronto Star some time ago -- I clipped it out and I saw it the other day; I was reviewing it -- talked about what they

said about each group as that group came to Canada, how they tried to peg them as being lazy or radical or something of that nature. He mentioned all the different groups that had come, and what

they said about the Irish, what they said about the Scottish, what they said about the French when they came to Canada, or people of Polish decent or any other country. The point he was making was

that the complexion of Canada is changing over the years and people are saying things about the new wave of immigrants now that he points out were said about immigrants years ago.

We've found that all have come together in Canada. We've become an international country. We have wonderful connections with other parts of the world. Certainly

our relationship with Japan is a strong relationship, but again I emphasize that although people of Japanese decent may have relatives in Japan, my experience is that as with others who have come

to this country, they are Canadians first.

We want to encourage people to share that culture. One of the great advantages we have in this country is that we do that. While we ask people to be Canadians

first, we ask them as well to share their culture and their history with us. We learn so much about others in the world by having them come to our country and not simply assimilate -- although, as

I say, we want people to be Canadians first -- but become part of the education process about people and their culture.

The Japanese culture is rich in tradition. There is, I think, a better understanding of it today than before because of many of the documentaries we get to see

on television, particularly with PBS in the United States, TVOntario and the CBC, which do documentaries on various people who have come to our country, or we're able to read about those

individuals.

It is important in a country that while we may not dwell excessively on the past, we recognize what happened in the past and the lack of justice that was part of

the history of Japanese Canadians in this country. There was an effort in 1988 to try to redress that and I thought it was appropriate. Again, there were people who were resentful of that

particular effort, but I think that when there has been a wrong perpetrated upon one particular group in our country, it's important that we indicate our sadness about that and indicate an apology

as these things have happened in history. It doesn't mean present-day Canadians should have a guilty feeling; it is, however, important they be aware of what has happened in the past so that, we

hope, it will not happen in the future.

It was a difficult time. When I talk to people, particularly elderly people who tell me what happened, as a Canadian I feel a good deal of regret about that.

Imagine, simply because you happen to be from a particular ethnic background, you are taken from your home, you lose many of your assets, you're often separated from those you love, you lose the

friendship of those in your community and you are interned in a particular camp. Even though you are a Canadian, you happen to be a Canadian who may have come from a country or whose ancestors may

have come from a country which was at war with the United States, Canada and much of the western world.

So I want to say to the member that I'm pleased he brought forward this bill today. I think it's going to be important that the Sunday closest to September 22

each year is proclaimed Nikkei Heritage Day. The act will come into effect when it receives royal assent. I find it hard to believe, though I cannot speak on behalf of all members of the

Legislature, that we would not have unanimous consent of this House for this piece of legislation. I think it's not simply because we are attempting to pander to any particular group or to court

favour with any particular group. I think it's because it's positive for this country and positive for the people who have come to this country from Japan.

Our relationship has grown over the years. If you talk to Canadians, you will find that many of their children are now in Japan. One of the things they're doing,

through computers, through the Internet, through e-mail with one another almost instantly. I'm not a master of technology, but we can even see images of people.

Mr George Smitherman (Toronto Centre-Rosedale): That's an understatement.

Mr Bradley: "An understatement," says my colleague.

We can even see people on a screen. This is something the member for Kitchener and I as youngsters would have heard about as, shall we say, science fiction. But

today we have the opportunity to communicate instantly of course with writing, but also with our voices and pictures so we can actually see the person at the other end. That's the marvellous part

of being able to communicate. I say that, because I know a number of my friends have children who are living in Japan today.

So that relationship grows stronger. People who have gone on exchanges -- the Rotary Club, for instance, has an international exchange program -- have found it a

fascinating country, a wonderful country to visit. The warmth of the welcome they receive is truly marvellous.

So I think it's important that we in this country, in this province, recognize the heritage of the people who came from Japan to our country. I think this bill

will do so, and I think each time of the year on that day we will be allowed to reflect on that heritage in a very positive way.

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): I rise to speak not just for myself today, but on behalf of the New Democratic Party. Although this is

private members' hour and sometimes we vote differently on some of the issues before us, I would say we all support Mr Wettlaufer's bill before us today, Bill 140,

An Act to proclaim Nikkei

Heritage Day. I think this is a long time coming, actually, and I'm very, very pleased to see it before us.

I want to pay tribute for a moment to the National Association of Japanese Canadians. I don't know if many people here are aware of the work they do in our

communities. I'm sure Mr Tsubouchi, who is here with us today, would be very aware of this association and the work that they do. They have a mission statement, and their mission statement is:

"To promote and develop a strong Japanese Canadian identity and thereby to strengthen local communities and the national organization; and

"To strive for equal rights and liberties for all persons; in particular, the rights of racial and ethnic minorities."

Their vision is for "a strong, unified community founded on diversity and committed to human rights for all for the enrichment of Canada." Their priorities are

to advocate for human rights, to strengthen communication, to build bridges, to strengthen Japanese-Canadian identity, to do effective fundraising -- always important -- and to strengthen local

chapters, and they have done tremendous work.

Perhaps we're not aware of the work Japanese Canadians have done on the issues around human rights. They've been a very strong voice in that area by developing a

strong public voice and profile on human rights issues, with priority given to Canadian issues, group issues and Aboriginal rights. Again, I'm not sure if people are aware that Japanese Canadians

have worked and continue to work very hard on equality and Aboriginal rights. They have worked very hard over the years to make people aware of their own history -- not just the history -- to

present injustices. They are out there supporting groups or seeking resolution of historic wrongs by supporting and resourcing a national human rights committee with a proactive strategy and

communications plan.

They have a tremendously strong organization. They have local chapters that sponsor and resource outreach initiatives at the local level, and provide technical

assistance, knowledge and experience to support local activities to develop a varied program of activities with a wide range of appeal.

So this organization is out there doing all kinds of tremendously important work. Because of this bill before us today, we have an opportunity to pay tribute to

the National Association of Japanese Canadians and thank them for the work they are doing now and have been doing, sometimes very quietly, but very effectively, often in the background. But they're

out there, and they're a very strong organization.

We've talked a little bit about the evacuation of Canadian Japanese or Nikkei from the Pacific coast in the early months of 1942. I guess it was one of

Canada's greatest shames in our entire history. On the eve of Pearl Harbor, we had about 23,000 people of Japanese descent in Canada, primarily in British Columbia. A lot of the Japanese Canadians

were foresters and fishermen, miners and merchants. They were treated -- and we know this is well documented -- with suspicion and hostility, and they were targets of ongoing, unremitting

discrimination and sometimes were subjected to great violence. Then, as we all know, in the sad history of the war, when war was declared on Japan in December 1941, there was a huge outcry and a

push to literally rid British Columbia of what they called the Japanese menace. This became a huge outcry, and tensions mounted. Then in 1942, the Ottawa government caved in to this racist outcry

and interned Japanese citizens.

I had the incredible privilege and joy, so to speak, to share living quarters back in the early 1980s with the well-known writer Joy Kogawa. Everybody here,

I'm sure, is very aware of her famous book, Obasan. I lived with Joy when she was writing that book. She would disappear for hours and hours and hours a day. I had no idea at the time what she was

writing. I knew she was writing something very important. She had that writer's look about her all the time. She was frequently preoccupied. We were very close friends, and still are. She's a tiny

woman, too. We shared clothes and spent a lot of good times together. Then when Joy --

Mr Garry J. Guzzo (Ottawa West-Nepean): You might take some credit for it.

Ms Churley: Yes. I want to pay tribute to Joy today. If you haven't read her book -- she's written several other books, and books of poetry,

since then -- I recommend that you do so. Her book, Obasan, which was published in 1981 -- I guess this is what she is best known for -- tells the story of what happened through the eyes of a

child. She tells the shameful story of the internment of Japanese Canadians during the Second World War. This book is considered by many to have been a catalyst. I know there are many other people

from the Japanese Canadian community who can claim credit and were catalysts as well, but I believe her book -- and many others share this view -- was a catalyst for the eventual redress in 1988 of

the wrongs done to Japanese Canadians.

I want to read some of the things Joy said when she was talking about her book, and what happened to her family when they were dragged from their homes,

separated and put in camps. She says:

"Betrayal is part of the human story. We take a group of neighbours and demonize them. During the Second World War, we Japanese Canadians were the demonized

people of the day. Our entire community was uprooted and relegated to the cesspool. The racism I imbibed as a child was profound. For years I was proud to be `the only Jap in town.' It was an

invisible racism, my self-perception was of unworthiness, inferiority, ugliness. The watchword when I was growing up was assimilation. We were quite successful at getting lost."

She says that her book is strongly autobiographical and, like Naomi in the book, she said, "I became a person who would not speak, would not ask a question,

did not expect to be heard."

She goes on to say, however, talking about her heart-wrenching experience -- we can't even imagine what that must have felt like -- "`You can't compare the

events of the European Holocaust with what happened in North America.' She would ... compare the Holocaust to the atomic bombings. Both spawned `the sense of hopelessness that flows from an evil

that is unimaginable.'"

Again I would recommend to people, if you have not read this book, Obasan, please read it. There are other tremendously well-written novels and accounts of the

horrible events that took place and what our Canadian government did to the people of Japanese descent in the war.

Since September 11, concerns have been expressed by the New Democratic Party, and others who have written about it, about racial profiling; concerns about some

of the things that have happened in this country, in this province and indeed in my own riding to people of Arab decent or to people who some think look like Arabs, to people of colour; some of the

terrible racist things that have been done to them personally. People have been spat upon, have been physically attacked and their property damaged; the fear that people have been feeling since the

events of September 11.

Of course, nobody is talking about or even contemplating doing to the Arab and Muslim community what we did to Canadians of Japanese descent during the war,

but the incidents that have happened and the kind of fear and in some cases loathing that has exhibited its ugly head since September 11 has certainly brought back some of those memories and fears

and concerns. We learned a lesson from that time to never, ever take such horrible action in this country again toward any of our citizens.

But there is still concern about the federal Liberal Bill C-36, which many of us believe strips Canadians of their civil rights. When we're talking about these

issues, there's always a balance. Certainly after the horrible terrorist attack in the US, all people, including people of Arab and Muslim faith, believe that the balance needs to be tipped at this

time, to some extent, between our civil rights as people of this country and the need for our safety and security. I don't think there's anybody who argues with that, including our Arabic and

Muslim citizens, because many Muslims and Arabs died as well in the attacks on the US. But we have to be very, very careful to not tip the balance too far in favour of security, as I believe Bill

C-36 does, which is why our New Democratic caucus in Ottawa struggled so hard to get amendments to get a sunset clause made on the bill. We must constantly be very, very careful to not tip the

balance too much in favour of security because innocent people can get caught up in that web of security and be held in prison, not being able to exercise the civil rights that we're all used to

and depend on and expect in this country.

I want to end by saying again to Mr Wettlaufer that I'm very pleased to have an opportunity to speak to this bill today and very pleased that the bill is

before us and very pleased that I've had the opportunity on behalf of my caucus today to express my appreciation for the incredible contribution that our citizens of Japanese-Canadian descent have

made to this province and indeed to this country.

Hon David H. Tsubouchi (Chair of the Management Board of Cabinet): I'm pleased to see, first of all, the students from St Maria Goretti school

in Scarborough who joined us for this very important discussion.

A couple of years ago I was in Thunder Bay, travelling and doing a few speaking engagements with my good friend Jim Doherty. Jim, who is associated with the

military museum in Thunder Bay, asked me to visit the military museum, and we dropped by. The first thing I saw as I walked into the room was a scale model of the POW Camp 101, which my father was

placed in during the Second World War. I explained the story to the people in Thunder Bay. A few months later, at the request of Mayor Ken Boshkoff, I attended Thunder Bay again. There they

presented me with a print of a flower growing through the barbed wire, along with the actual barbed wire that surrounded the POW camp that my father was in. By the way, my colleague Michael

Gravelle from the Liberal Party was there as well. I want to express once again my heartfelt thanks to the people in Thunder Bay, because that was probably the most meaningful presentation that I

have ever been at in my life. I passed it on to my father, who appreciated it as well.

Many other speakers have talked about the relocation, and the relocation, through my father's eyes -- he was telling me that the Mounties knocked on the door

and told him he had to leave the next day with only the possessions that he could carry. Can you imagine trying to decide which of your possessions you needed to take, aside from warm clothing for

the cold winters that we have in Canada? The only thing that I have left of my grandfather's is a very tiny sake set that they were able to keep.

They were herded like cattle and quite frankly, as the speakers have said, all our property was sold. None of the money was given to the Japanese Canadians; it

was all confiscated. Like my mother, Fumiko Takahashi, and my aunt, Haruko Bando, they were taken to internment camps, Lemon Creek in their particular case.

I wanted to express something about the POW camp. I want to start by just giving a quote from a book called POW Camp 101, written by Bob Okazaki, who

unfortunately passed away last year. This is the quote: "The end result of the evacuation program was the complete eradication of our Japanese community from Canada's west coast. The evacuation

dragged our community down into a whirlpool. While we were held back, other minorities began to politically and economically excel. Those of us who could become leaders were oppressed and subdued.

Now, some 50 years later, the Japanese Canadian society I once knew no longer exists." That's a really sad commentary on the conditions.

I might say the reason why my father, Tom Kiyoshi Tsubouchi, whose prisoner of war number was 606, born Canadian along with my uncles on my mother's side, John

Akira Takahashi and Hideo Takahashi, whose numbers were 578 and 579, all born Canadians, were in that POW camp was that if they decided you were a leader in the Japanese Canadian community in BC or

if you were in a group of protesters -- who were not protesting the confiscation of their property or the relocation and transportation into internment camps but the fact that they were being

separated in Vancouver before the transportation; that's the only issue they were protesting -- you were placed in a POW camp, as my father was.

My grandfather, Chozo Takahashi, at the age of 55 was the very first Japanese Canadian to die because of the transportation. He died in Winnipeg. My uncle

Akira wanted to get off with him to see to the funeral, but they wouldn't let him do that so he was buried in a pauper's grave somewhere around Winnipeg. Despite all this, the Nisei community, the

Japanese Canadians, were pretty philosophical about it. I guess there's an expression they use in Japanese, Shigata ga nai, which basically means, "What can you do about it?" Despite all the wrongs

that were committed against my father personally, he's a very proud Canadian, as are members of the Japanese Canadian community. They're very proud to be Canadians and they continue to be to this

day.

I'll end by quoting from a book called Maple, which is a group of Tanka poems, which is a form of Japanese poetry which, by the way, was translated by my

Remarks in Japanese.

Which means:

The frequent moves and relocation were unavoidable.

Such are the evils of war.

With hope,

Toronto is now final home.

That's the way the Japanese Canadians view Canada, that this is their home. They're proud to be Canadians.

From the bottom of my heart, I thank the member from Kitchener Centre for taking forward this bill, which not only has meaning to the Japanese Canadian

community in this province, but has great personal meaning to me. Thank you, Wayne.

Mr Toby Barrett (Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant): Before I begin, I would ask members to recognize the students of Holy Cross academy in

Woodbridge.

Applause.

Mr Barrett: Thank you, Speaker, for this opportunity to address Nikkei Heritage Day. I know some may wonder why I, as the member for

Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant, would feel it so important to address this bill. I do not have many Japanese Canadian constituents. I only know two families, the Kobyashis and the Hinatsus, in my hometown

of Port Dover. The families moved to Port Dover, a commercial fishing town, for some of the reasons we heard Mr Tsubouchi outline this morning. These families have had a great and positive

influence on Port Dover.

Secondly, when I worked in Toronto back in the 1970s as a farm boy -- at that time, you had a put a bankroll together if you wanted to keep farming -- I was

literally adopted by the Hatashita family. People who were involved in marshal arts back in the 1970s would know the Olympic reputation of Frank Hatashita and his contribution to judo. I rise in

the House to honour the reputation of those several Japanese Canadian families that I have known personally. It is important to me to indicate my respect for their contributions and, through these

families, to thank all Japanese Canadians and to indicate my support for a Nikkei Heritage Day.

As we know, Japanese Canadians are a very important part of society in Canada. Despite suffering through property and monetary losses at the hands of our

federal government during World War II, Japanese Canadians, as Mr Tsubouchi has indicated, have gone beyond that and continue to make significant contributions. I think of architecture. I mentioned

judo and other martial arts and of course Japanese food, which is a very important part of my diet.

As I indicated, my hometown of Port Dover has benefited immensely from the influence of the families, the Hinatsus, the Kobyashis. Even after he retired as

game warden, Les Kobyashi continued to monitor the pier at Port Dover well into his eighties.

I spent a number of years in company with the Hatashita family. Frank Hatashita tolerated me in his home, not because I knew anything about judo -- it's

probably just as well. He had a pretty fierce reputation and I was not seen as a threat. I know many people had a great deal of respect and fear of Frank Hatashita. Frank Hatashita loved to cook

Japanese food, and I loved to eat it. There are many other stories about Frank, and I can discuss these with the Honourable David Tsubouchi later.

We know it was 124 years ago that the first Japanese person set foot on Canadian soil, by boat of course across the Pacific, landing in British Columbia. I

think back to a beautiful painting Frank Hatashita had of his commercial fishing boat that was seized. Frank Hatashita had an affinity to my hometown, Port Dover, a commercial fishing town. Both my

sisters married commercial fishermen, and to seize someone's boat is akin to seizing someone's farm. I can only begin to imagine the devastation on that man to lose his boat.

One aspect of Japanese culture -- I did a fair bit of reading with respect to both architecture and landscape architecture and a few years ago I built my own

house. I also did a fair bit of what I refer to as bulldozer landscaping, much of it based on the concept of "form follows function." It's a principle I picked up from my association with the

families I've mentioned and I have found that it has served me well in political life as well.

The Japanese cherry is another gift from overseas. The blossoming cherry trees of spring have special significance, many now a permanent fixture in much of

Ontario and Canada and truly a testament to nature's beauty. Thanks to Les Kobyashi, again of Port Dover, we have a grove of cherry trees that have been planted over the years. I had the pleasure

of showing these trees to the Honourable David Tsubouchi a number of years ago.

We have heard mention of self-defence -- aikido in its many forms: judo, kendo, karate. Again, Port Dover has an outstanding judo club and has had for a number

of years.

I regret time does not permit me to continue and I will wrap up by indicating that we all owe a debt of thanks to Japanese Canadians for their many

contributions. I call on this government to recognize the legislation that's put forward today, and I personally thank the positive contributions that Japanese Canadians have had both on me and on

my community.

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I'm very pleased to be able to speak in the limited time that has been left. I am proud to be

able to stand with respect to the act to proclaim Nikkei Heritage Day. Certainly the history of this goes back to Pearl Harbour in World War II and also Hong Kong. I could share a personal note,

that my father served in the Canadian army. About the time of Hong Kong, when they were recruiting in Winnipeg, where my family is from, he tried to get accepted for the Winnipeg Rifles who went

over to Hong Kong. He wasn't accepted for service and he subsequently served out east, where he was accepted for service. It obviously would have had a profound effect on my life, because I might

not even have been here.

I would say this on two fronts, one from my local experience with the people of Japanese heritage: it has had a profound effect on me. The people at Izumi

restaurant do great charity work throughout the city of Barrie with respect to fundraising for people and the Barrie and District Association for People with Special Needs. The investment that has

been brought into the area gives some backbone to the economic base of Simcoe county. There is the Honda plant, and other Japanese investments from different companies. Looking at the contribution

they've made, it's been significant not only from a social perspective but also from a business perspective.

There is my interest in Japanese politics. I studied it at McMaster University with great interest. I think it's a fascinating study in terms of the Japanese

political structure and their history.

I want to share, for all the people who are listening here today, that there's a tremendous book out by Pierre Berton, Marching as to War: Canada's Turbulent

Years, 1899-1953. He has in there, I think, a very objective account of what happened to the Japanese people who lived in this country and were citizens of this country. He views it as, here we

were fighting in World War II for peace and democracy, and we were interning 23,000 people from their homes and putting limits on their mobility across the country.

The greatest tragedy is that this program that was put in place by the federal government through Mackenzie King and Louis St Laurent did not end until 1949,

four years after the war ended. So the prejudice and the views that were held in that day certainly were not helped by the government of the day in terms of dealing with a policy that was the

antithesis of what it was fighting for in World War II.

The Acting Speaker: Response?

Mr Wettlaufer: I'd like to thank the members from St Catharines, Toronto-Danforth, Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant and Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford, and the

Chair of Management Board, the Honourable David Tsubouchi, for their contributions to the debate this morning.

The comments relating to modern-day immigrants suffering the same insults, and particularly how since September 11 the members of the Arab and Muslim community

have suffered, really bring home the importance of what I'm trying to do here today, and that is not just to recognize a very important ethnocultural group in our community, but to celebrate the

cultural diversity we have in this country and in this province.

We had a terrible period during the war and immediately subsequent to the war. Brian Mulroney, the Prime Minister of Canada, said on September 22, 1988, when

the federal government redressed, or certainly attempted to redress, the wrong of that period, "I think all members of the House know that no amount of money can right the wrong, undo the harm and

heal the wounds." We know that. The Chair of Management Board said there is tremendous pride among the Japanese Canadian community in being Canadian. He outlined his own family's suffering, and in

spite of that he talked about the pride his own father and his own uncles have in being Canadian.

No one is trying to right a wrong, but it's to recognize the pride that Japanese Canadians have in being Canadian and in being citizens of this province.

The Acting Speaker: Thank you. This completes the time allocated for debating ballot item number 39. I'll place the questions relating to it

at 12 noon.

Hon Rob Sampson (Minister of Correctional Services): On a point of order, Speaker: I think it is important for you know that from the city of

Mississauga we have Christ the King Catholic school here watching this very important debate and I'd like to welcome them.

GRAVESITES OF FORMER

PREMIERS ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001

SUR LES LIEUX DE SÉPULTURE

DES ANCIENS PREMIERS MINISTRES

Mr Peters moved second reading of the following bill:

Bill 143,

An Act to preserve the gravesites of former premiers of Ontario / Projet de loi 143, Loi visant à conserver les lieux de sépulture des

anciens premiers ministres de l'Ontario.

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): The member for Elgin-Middlesex-London.

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): The first Premier of Ontario after Confederation in 1867 was John Sandfield Macdonald. Macdonald was

known in his ministry for considerable distinction. He was frugal, yet creative. Despite opposition assertions to the contrary, he was no puppet of the Prime Minister of Canada.

Our second Premier, Edward Blake, served for two years. One of Blake's distinctions was that he not only served in the federal House of Commons and as Premier

of this province, but also went on to serve as an MP in the British House of Commons.

Under Sir Oliver Mowat's leadership, Ontario truly came of age economically, socially and politically. Agriculture was modernized, the importance of industry

was recognized, educational and scientific areas were cultivated, urban problems were addressed and for the first time trade unions were accepted as part of society.

Our fourth Premier, Arthur Sturgis Hardy, is probably best remembered during his days as the commissioner of crown lands because it was through him that

Algonquin Park was established.

Sir George Ross was very active in making sure the public education system was overhauled and improved. He also started to deal, for the first time, with the

controversies existing between the public education system and the separate schools.

Sir James P. Whitney was our next Premier. During Whitney's term, the administration began Ontario's first publicly owned hydroelectric system. I won't comment

on what's happening to that today. He set the University of Toronto in a firm financial position. He passed groundbreaking workmen's compensation legislation. He also created the Ontario Railway

and Municipal Board, which I know my friend Mr Colle is most interested in. He also enacted fair but tough liquor legislation.

Sir William Howard Hearst played a very important role because he much expanded this province. In 1912 the Keewatin territory was added to Ontario, which

increased the size of this great province of ours by 56%. I think probably the greatest thing under Hearst's leadership was the enfranchisement of women; women were first allowed to vote. He also

enacted prohibition, established a department of labour and authorized the construction of the Queenston hydroelectric plant.

E.C. Drury was very active in the agricultural community and was involved with the United Farmers of Ontario. His administration was noted for its important

social legislation and also its strict enforcement of the Ontario Temperance Act.

George Howard Ferguson personified Ontario in the 1920s: a mix of 19th century values and 20th century ambitions. As Premier, he set the beginning of the great

industrialization of this province.

George Stewart Henry during his tenure provided this province with its first highway system, and paved highways increased from 670 kilometres to almost 4,000

kilometres.

My favourite, because he's from my riding, is Mitch Hepburn. Mitch implemented a number of populist measures, including auctioning off all the government

limousines and selling off the Lieutenant Governor's quarters. He was active in the iron ore industry and helped make improvements there. But probably his greatest accomplishment was the compulsory

pasteurization of milk.

Gordon Daniel Conant served for a brief period in 1942 and 1943. He was very productive in the Legislature but unfortunately could not heal some differences

within the Liberal Party.

Harry Nixon also served as Premier of this province, and I think one of Nixon's lasting legacies is the fact that his son continued to serve in this

Legislature and his granddaughter, Jane Stewart, continues to serve the people of Canada today in the federal government.

George Drew was the Premier who acted as both Minister of Education and Premier. For many of us, he was the beginning of the Tory dynasty that lasted in this

province for so long, as we all know. He's the man who set it off.

Thomas Laird Kennedy -- his grandson, Ted Chudleigh from Halton, is a member of this Legislature today -- was a homespun man, and he was popular and respected

among the farmers of this province.

Leslie Frost's government initiated progressive legislation in health, education and human rights, and encouraged growth in the private sector through fiscal

policy and public investment.

John Parmenter Robarts was a strong advocate for individual freedom and defended provincial and human rights. He also laid the groundwork for the community

college system and helped open up two more universities in this province.

Frank Miller, whose son Norm serves in this Legislature today, was very active and involved in the Ministries of Health, Natural Resources, Treasury and

Economics, and did much to help lead this province.

These are individuals who I firmly believe deserve recognition. No matter what political stripe they wore, these were individuals who led this province and

helped to shape it. I think it's of extreme importance that we pay tribute to these individuals, that we say thank you to these individuals.

Before I came into the Legislature today, I walked down the halls. You walk up the front stairway and you start to see the portraits of the former Premiers.

You walk down the hall on the second floor to the Premier's office and you think of the countless hours those individuals put into this job and what they did to try to improve things. To them we

say thank you.

One of the things that truly bothers me as a Canadian is that we often don't realize what we have in our own backyard. We don't think about our own heritage

enough. We see the great flag-waving in the United States, but we don't do that in Canada for some reason. We think our history is trivial, but it's not trivial. We've got a great history, a

history that is worth promoting.

My intent with this legislation is that we take that step and move forward to recognize those individuals. For myself, it started with a visit to Mount

Pleasant Cemetery. I was touring this wonderful cemetery on Yonge Street north, and as I went through I saw a Canadian flag and a small plaque at the gravesite of Mackenzie King. It struck me that

we're recognizing the Prime Minister and the other Prime Ministers because of federal legislation that Roger Galloway, the MP for Sarnia-Lambton, helped to put forward in 1998. It was enacted in

1999. I thought that if the federal government could recognize the contributions of former Prime Ministers, we as the province of Ontario should be working toward recognition of the former Premiers

of this province.

You can just imagine some of the great debates that have taken place in this Legislature since it opened in 1892, and the Premiers sitting there and having to

answer in question period. If the walls in this very chamber could talk, the stories they could tell. I think every one of us recognizes that.

I know there is some concern about one aspect of this legislation, and that is some privacy issues. It certainly was never my intent to go into a cemetery

without dealing and working with the cemetery. It certainly was not my intent to act against the wishes of any family member who may have some concerns. But I don't think they will, because I think

we should all be proud of the contributions those individuals have made. We should recognize them not only for this generation but for future generations.

In many ways we do need to understand the past and look at the past to know where we're going. I see this as a step forward, where we as a province will

recognize those contributions, where we can say thank you to those individuals who have served this province with distinction as Premier and we can say thank you to their families too, because

every one of us knows the hours a politician puts in. We need to say thank you and we need to pay tribute. It's my intent, with the preservation of gravesites of former premiers of Ontario, to give

these premiers the recognition they truly deserve.

Mr David Christopherson (Hamilton West): I'm pleased to add my voice in support of the bill. I think that it's well intentioned. Quite

frankly, a lot of people would find it surprising that we don't do this now. Here we are, on the brink of 2002, and there really isn't this kind of recognition.

The reason I wanted to speak to this was just to add a personal experience. Not that long ago I was in Kingston with a friend and we were travelling around and

came across a sign that said, "The Gravesite of Sir John A. Macdonald," of course the founding father of Canada, of Confederation. It piqued my interest. We pulled over, walked up and looked at the

site, and I was really disappointed. I say this because I'm sure it's something we've all experienced from time to time.

After a few minutes of looking at the site and, quite frankly, how pathetic the site was in terms of the recognition deserved by such an important, crucial

historical figure as Sir John A. Macdonald, the first thought I had was, "You know, the Americans would do this a lot different." They might go to a little further extreme than we would, because we

have different approaches to patriotism and our history, but nonetheless, the point in my mind was, "This is so sad."

We want to do so many things on the world stage, and have done so in the past. I see some young people here today. In the future, hopefully they'll be leading

our nation into even greater glories, if you will. To begin that process without even properly recognizing Sir John A. Macdonald really bothered me. That's why I wanted to take a moment to come in

here and speak to this, because it bothered me.

It bothered me that as a society we didn't care enough about our history and have enough pride in our history to ensure that we reflected proper respect and

remembrance of the first Prime Minister of our nation. To apply that here, to ensure that Premiers, whether one personally agrees or disagrees with their policies, are recognized, that that office

is respected, that the office of Premier is an important part of our parliamentary tradition and certainly a key role in our governance structure -- again, we as Ontarians should take some pride in

our history. We can't expect the following generations to have the feelings about Ontario and Canada that we have without giving them some significant symbols of what that has meant to previous

generations.

All I really wanted to do was put on the record that I'm glad Mr Peters brought this forward. I commend him for doing so. It's one of those small things that

will not likely appear in a whole lot of media, but it's the right thing to do. I think Mr Peters -- I'm assuming this will pass at the end of the day -- will have left his mark by ensuring that as

a people and as a society we are leaving our generational markers in place for future generations to learn from and be respectful of. Again, my congratulations to Mr Peters. I'm glad this is here;

it's the right thing to do. It's long overdue.

Mr Frank Mazzilli (London-Fanshawe): It's certainly a privilege to rise and speak on this bill, as parliamentary assistant to the Minister of

Tourism, Culture and Recreation. I want to thank the member for Elgin-Middlesex-London for coming up with this initiative and this idea. As he said, the federal legislation, which did virtually the

same thing with some more complexities to it, was only done a couple of years ago so this isn't a situation where somehow in this country this was being done in other provinces or at a national

level; it's something that's been neglected by everyone. I also want to thank him, not only for the initiative of the bill but for the history lesson itself, through his 10-minute speech, one that

I certainly found very informative.

Ontario at the present time does have the Ontario Heritage Foundation provincial plaque program, which is different from what is being proposed by the member

from Elgin-Middlesex-London. In fact, that plaque program recognizes Premiers, and there are plaques for 14 Premiers in this province. However, they're located either in their birthplace or in

their constituency. As you look through the

schedule that the member has attached to his private member's bill, it's somewhat different. People obviously choose their resting place in locations

that are not, in some cases, their birthplace, that are not in the constituencies where they have served throughout their time.

Part of the educational program that I received through your speech was the pedigree of the former Premiers and how that is still represented in this

Legislature today through the grandchildren and children of those Premiers. After hearing the member from Elgin-Middlesex-London, it's a wonder that some of us who do not have that type of history

in our bloodlines, if you will, have ended up here. At some point, that may also change.

The one thing that the ministry has acknowledged, and the member from Elgin-Middlesex-London will acknowledge, is when the federal program was initiated, it

started out with $500,000, and that has quickly gone to some $1 million. So these are initiatives that will have to be looked at. The bill certainly does not explain how and who will pay for

certain items of preservation. I suspect that once the government takes on these initiatives, the taxpayers of this province will have to look at those issues.

One thing I will say is that the member has come up with the initiative and the thought of respecting and acknowledging former Premiers of this province, and I

believe in that concept. I'm certainly proposing that the ministry have a look, and if they need to write a government bill that does the same thing, I would be supportive of that initiative, where

it does require money to be spent.

I know my seatmate Norm Miller from the great riding of Parry Sound-Muskoka, where his father represented this Legislature as Premier of this province,

certainly wants to speak to this important issue. All in all, I want to congratulate the member from Elgin-Middlesex-London. I think we can work through the issues of privacy and funding for this

important initiative, and I hope that at some point in the near future, we can have

an act that will respect former Premiers of this province.

Ms Caroline Di Cocco (Sarnia-Lambton): It is with great pleasure that I rise and speak today on my colleague's bill requiring that the

Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation mark gravesites of former Premiers of Ontario. I believe that my colleague Steve Peters has brought forward this bill because he has a commitment to

heritage. As the critic for culture and heritage for the Liberal caucus, I would also like to state that I certainly have a very strong commitment, as does Dalton McGuinty and the Liberal caucus,

to heritage and culture.

I believe it's these small steps that we as legislators can bring forward, these types of bills, that actually leave a legacy for our future generations. I

want to thank Steve Peters for bringing forward this bill. A few years ago, as Steve indicated, in my riding, we commemorated -- or we unveiled, if you'd like; I don't know how else to put it --

the gravesite where Alexander Mackenzie is buried. He was the second Prime Minister of Canada, and he also was an MPP, a member of provincial Parliament. There was a year when he was both MPP and

MP and he served in both capacities at the same time.

What it showed us in Sarnia, what it did by having this gravesite as part of a national heritage designation, if you want to call it that, was it gave the

opportunity for the community to understand better some of its roots. Not only did we as a community look at the history of this second Prime Minister -- most of the community didn't know the

second Prime Minister of Canada had been a resident of Sarnia and had worked and lived in Sarnia-Lambton -- it provided us, as people in Sarnia-Lambton, the opportunity to take a look at where we

come from, what helped to build us as a community, what helped to build us as a nation. It had a remarkable impact, in my view, in helping us, as residents of that area, to better understand that

past and to look at where we are today.

I took a look at one of the clips I saw from the London Free Press on December 4, which was a thumbs-up and talks about how "Peters's plan must not be buried."

It says, "Our past is often ignored. Let's hope somebody pays attention to Steve Peters tomorrow.... [As] it stands, anyone stumbling across the St Thomas grave of Mitchell Hepburn wouldn't know it

marks the resting place of an onion farmer who hated pomp, appealed to immigrants and led Ontario from 1934 to 1942."

I believe it's important, fundamentally important, to us as a society to ensure that we preserve our past. Steve Peters has already spoken about some of the

achievements of the past Premiers in Ontario, so I won't reiterate that. He already said that for the record. But one of my biggest concerns in this province is that this whole aspect of culture

and heritage seems to be dealt with, in my view, with a great deal of indifference in this Legislature, on a bigger scale. That concerns me a great deal, because I think indifference to heritage

and indifference to culture lessens us as a society. Unfortunately, we're losing much of our heritage here because we don't have a Heritage Act that has teeth. That word is not spoken; I don't

believe it has been spoken in this Legislature for all the time that the Conservatives have been in power.

Culture and heritage has had the deepest cuts as a ministry, deeper than that of the environment. First was culture and heritage and second was the

environment, which indicates to me the priorities, or lack of priorities in those sectors. It's an unfortunate non-understanding, in my view, of the value of culture and heritage.

I believe that ministries in a government are like a mosaic, and I'm going to use my analogy of how I believe we should be treating all the various ministries.

What I believe is that a mosaic is made up of many, many parts. Some of the parts are larger, some of them are smaller, some of them are more colourful and brighter, and some of them are less

colourful and bright, but we need every single piece to complete the whole picture. That's one of the rationales, that although culture and heritage are not at the forefront of the urgent

priorities of the province, they should nonetheless be important, because it is important as a part of who we are as a people.

This initiative by Steve Peters, I believe, shows not only his commitment to history but his commitment in preserving that sense of identity that we need. We

always talk about, as Canadians, we don't have a sense of identity. But we do. We just unfortunately either take it for granted or we treat it with this terrible indifference. I'm going to say it

again: I want to thank Steve for his initiative, and I'm hoping that this Legislature will pass this bill for third reading, because it certainly will leave a legacy that will be felt and be

appreciated much more in the future than it probably is today.

I want to talk a little bit about some of the losses of heritage, losses of identity that we're seeing day to day in this province because we don't have the

political will to really address this whole aspect of heritage with any substance. We have our first Parliament buildings, for instance, in the riding of my seatmate that many groups are trying

desperately to save, many groups are trying desperately to attain funding to assist, because we also have to put some dollars into the preservation and maintenance of our heritage in this

province.

This is the only province that doesn't have a provincial historical museum. We have seen a number of the community museums across this province being literally

devastated because of the deep cuts, and many small museums that preserve that history of those small communities have been whittled away, with $5,000 taken away here, $10,000 taken away there.

It's impossible for them to maintain that service because there's always this sense, "These museums should be making money." Well, there's another service that they provide. They're not a business

in the way other businesses are, and one of the, if you want to call it, very narrow perspectives that I often see is that certainly the government knows the cost of running these small museums,

but unfortunately it doesn't equate the value of what it is to have a museum in a small community.

In my view, in these instances it's being penny wise but certainly pound foolish long-term, because this is also a part of an industry that creates a tourism

attraction. If you have a sense of identity in our communities, if you have a strong sense of history in a community, that's what makes that community interesting. That's also what makes the

province interesting. It makes it unique from another community. It gives it a sense of identity. So the long-term intangible benefits as to the value of having that sense of identity will also

translate into a very strong economic return as time goes on as another industry in the areas.

I was up in Moosonee, for instance, in James Bay. I needed a day or so to relax, and I took the Northlander up to Cochrane and then from there I took the Polar

Bear Express and went up to Moosonee. It was my couple of days of quiet and enjoying the area.

I was speaking to someone from the Ministry of Tourism, and he mentioned to me how there is now this initiative just recently to promote tourism in Ontario.

Then I equated it back to my trip that I took up to Moosonee and also the constant fear that the Northlander may be shut down. We know there's a

section in the new budget bill that was passed to

allow the Northlander commission to be able to regulate whether or not they're going to shut down the Northlander. I've certainly heard the debate.

So on one hand we want to promote tourism and we want to promote these, if you want to call them, unique niches that are nowhere else in the world, yet the

actual infrastructure that's going to take you there is in a precarious state today. That's because there isn't this holistic approach. I believe it was Jane Jacobs who said that when you take one

piece out of this habitat, there are many other things that are going to be impacted by it.

When I was up in Moosonee, I noticed that there was a huge history of the Hudson's Bay Co in Moose Factory. But it was in terrible disrepair. It had fallen

into disrepair, and one of the reasons, of course, is because there has been no fiscal support to maintain that after -- I believe the last time was the centennial year. So there doesn't seem to be

any interest to develop and maintain that heritage infrastructure or the heritage identity of this province, but there is the big push to promote or to market the tourism niche. In my view, one

will fail without the other.

Having this initiative of preserving as a beginning -- and again I commend my colleague -- this provincial history at least starts to give us a bit of a

sampling, across the province, of how we have evolved politically in this province and some of the gains that were made. One of the interesting aspects about this kind of provincial history is that

we're dealing today with many, many of the debates and discussions that were dealt with in the 1800s and early 1900s. It's interesting, because when I was reading about John Sandfield Macdonald,

the first Premier, he talked about how he feared Toronto's domination of his St Lawrence Valley region. He had this sense that Toronto was going to take over in priority.

There was another one here that I also thought was quite interesting. It's about Sir Oliver Mowat and the fact that under his leadership, Ontario came of age

economically, socially and politically. Agriculture was modernized, the importance of industry was recognized and educational and scientific areas were cultivated. You could take those words and I

believe you could put them in today and they would still be relevant to what government is trying to do and the intent of what every party puts forward as a platform.

I certainly hope this Legislature will pass this bill. I want to say this is a good step forward. I'd like to see a lot more initiatives such as this. Thank

you, Steve.

Mr Michael Prue (Beaches-East York): There is absolutely nothing in this bill that would cause me or should cause anyone else to vote against

it. It is a bill that will help to preserve the heritage of this province. It will help to recognize people who need to be recognized. It will help to recognize people who need to be recognized. It

will help the general public to understand the final resting place of many great individuals and, I think just as importantly or perhaps more importantly, to have a sense of the historical

perspective of those people in the life of this province.

Heritage, unfortunately, has never been a high prerogative of this government -- or any government, I would say -- in Ontario. One can go all around the

province and find places where heritage has not been accorded the degree of commitment that one would expect and in fact that one sees in many other places in the world and even many other places

in Canada. One need only go to Quebec City to see the whole development of their heritage, of the downtown and lower town of Quebec City, to understand how the preserved heritage in that

municipality and in Quebec itself, as a province, has been restored, kept and nurtured. It's a whole joie de vivre about not only who they are today but who they have been over the centuries.

I am glad to see that this may be one small step that will get Ontarians thinking of how important heritage is to our community. Unfortunately in our community

over the past, buildings have been torn down or modified so that they can no longer be enjoyed or understood. The legislation in this province in terms of heritage is extremely weak. As of the

passage of the new Municipal Act, municipalities have no more authority than they have had for 149 years in terms of preserving their heritage. All they can do is delay the destruction of heritage

buildings by six months -- nothing else, nothing more, period. That is sad.

In this province, historical bodies have been starved of money. There is no money to plaque, there is no money to educate the public, there is no money, or

very little money, to do the work of explaining to Ontarians and Canadians and people around the world the uniqueness of this province: how this province has played its role in Confederation, how

this province has been home to hundreds and millions of new immigrants, how this province has developed from what was a wilderness just a couple of hundred years ago when the first people came. I'm

not talking about our native people -- they were here already, of course -- but when the first European settlers arrived, this was very much a wilderness. Life was very hard and it was a very

difficult place in which to live. But they carved out of that wilderness the place we see around us, the wonderful place we call Ontario.

This province is also a sad place where museums are forced to close because there is no money. It's already been stated that museums are not even opened. We

are the only ones without a provincial museum to talk about our heritage and our past. Museums are closed. I think recently of the heritage museum in Toronto that had to close called the Pier, down

on the waterfront, I guess about a kilometre from this location. It had to close for the mere amount of about $100,000 because there was no money left in the municipal coffers to keep that museum

going. Things have been underfunded to such an extent that a museum and heritage site of international recognition in the east end of the city called the Brickworks has never been able to fully

open. It has a park surrounding it, but the buildings lie in ruin. There has never been any money to maintain them or fix them up or get them going again.

The original Parliament buildings have never been properly dug up and only now are attracting some interest. Fort York is having highways go all around it and

has never been able to develop, although that was the site of one of the great defences of this country in 1812.

In this very Legislature, I don't think we have paid enough attention to heritage. There was a bust of Agnes McPhail, who was not only the first woman to be

elected to the House of Commons in Ottawa in 1921, where she served with distinction for more than 20 years, but she was also -- and many people do not remember this -- the first woman elected to

this Legislature in 1945. No woman was elected to this Legislature until 1945, and she was one of two elected that year. There was a bust of her outside the Premier's office. I don't know what

happened to it but I understand one day someone brushed by it and it fell over, was damaged and had to be removed. It has been broken now for many years. There is a process that has to be

undertaken to restore that bust and to get the necessary funds, but it involves legislative committees and money and it involves debate in this Legislature to replace it, and it has never been

done. I hope the Legislature, hearing the debate today on the importance of heritage and the importance of recognizing Premiers, might also recognize that remarkable woman, the first one to be here

in this Legislature, and find the necessary funds as well to make sure that bust, that statue, goes up in its rightful place.

The Premiers, of course, all should be remembered. It is much more important to remember them in the local municipalities from which they came, much more

important for people to see it than merely to read about it in history books, and much more important than merely to have the portraits hung here on the walls. Of course, the portraits are already

here on the walls. Those who are lucky enough to come into Queen's Park, those who have a tour of this building, will see the portraits of all of the Premiers. They hang on the wall and everyone is

proud and everyone is happy to see them here. But in the far-flung areas of the province where the Premiers might be buried, very little is known.

My colleague talked about going to Kingston to Sir John A. Macdonald's gravesite. I have myself visited the gravesite of another Prime Minister, Lester

Pearson, in Quebec overlooking the Ottawa River. It's a very simple grave; there is no real plaque or monument or anything that would signify that that man, who was a great Prime Minister of Canada

-- there is nothing there.

There is nothing really there about the Premiers of this province either. They must be acknowledged and there must be plaques placed at or near the gravesites.

But I am also suggesting that if the Legislature can find the funds, there should be a grove or an area somewhere here in Queen's Park -- and there's a lot of land -- where a duplicate plaque

should also be put. I think that would be a really good idea so that all of them are available to people who may not ever come inside the Legislature but could see those plaques when they were out

walking in the park or in among the flowers, the things that people often do around this park.

There was a good accounting by Mr Peters, the member for Elgin-Middlesex-London, of the Premiers. I don't intend to go through all of those, but in the time

left to me I would say I was doing some research about some of the Premiers and wondering what to say. I came across one about Premier Whitney which I thought, in view of the announcements

yesterday on privatizing electricity, might be of interest to the members opposite and maybe some others watching.

I read directly from a quote from the Honourable Brenda Elliott, what she had to say about Premier Whitney and electricity back in 1996. I would like this to

be remembered about Premier Whitney, and perhaps an opposite plaque might, in 20 or 30 or 50 years' time, be said of someone else.

She says: "In the early years of this century, how to develop the electricity potential of Niagara Falls was the hot issue at Queen's Park. Everyone had an

opinion, but the controversy ultimately boiled down to a struggle between two groups. One group supported the development of Niagara Falls by private sector interests. The other favoured developing

Niagara Falls with public money.

"Ironically, it was the Liberals of the day who supported private sector power. The Conservatives, led by James Whitney, supported publicly funded development

of the falls.

"In the provincial election of 1905, the public power supporters -- led by Whitney's Conservatives -- were elected, despite warnings from prominent financial

papers in New York and London that these people were dangerous radicals, perhaps even socialists. Imagine that.

"One of the members of Whitney's cabinet was a young minister without portfolio -- Adam Beck -- whose name became synonymous with the cause of public power. In

1906, despite continuing controversy, the government pushed the Hydro bill through the House and Beck was named the first chairman of the Hydro-Electric Power Commission of Ontario."

I'm going to have to skip down to the end due to time.

"That magical moment, 90 years ago, serves to remind why we are here tonight. The electrification of Ontario and the part that Ontario Hydro played in that

process are important aspects of our past. And they are part of our collective heritage, as a province and a society.

"For nearly a century, Ontario Hydro has provided high-quality service to the Ontario public, bringing the countless benefits of electricity to the people of

this province. For that we must all be grateful.

"On behalf of the Premier and the government, as well as the people of Ontario, I want to take this opportunity to thank the Ontario Hydro board, its

management and staff, for their tireless commitment to serving the people of Ontario. You, and your colleagues who have preceded you, have made our lives better -- and brighter."

I was talking about James Whitney, and I hope the plaque somewhere says something good about his having done that. We need to save our past. This is a good

bill to do a little part of that. I welcome it, I support it and I thank Mr Peters for his initiative.

Mr Norm Miller (Parry Sound-Muskoka): It's my pleasure to rise today in support of Bill 143, which has been put forward by Steve Peters from

Elgin-Middlesex-London. Of course this bill is of personal significance to me as my father was Premier of this province back in 1985.

My father did many things. It was always mentioned that he sold cars. He was a chemical engineer. He was the member for Muskoka from 1971 to 1986 and he served

in the government, first as Minister of Health, then as Minister of Natural Resources and as Treasurer -- he was probably best known as Treasurer for five or six years -- and he was Premier for a

fairly short length of time, starting in 1985. Even though he was Premier for a short time, there was nothing he was more proud of than being Premier of this province.

I think it is very fitting that all those past Premiers, all 17 or 18 of them, be recognized and their contributions to this province recognized. That's why I

very much support this bill put forward by the member for Elgin-Middlesex-London. I know he's very much interested in history. I believe he has a degree in history and that's probably why he

developed an interest in this specific bill.

In 1999 there was a federal program that was started to recognize the gravesites of Canadian Prime Ministers, and that was the National Program for the Grave

Sites of Canadian Prime Ministers. They have a brochure so that those interested in finding those sites can do so, and there's a Web site and other means of assisting people who are interested in

the history. There were complaints from people trying to find out about many of our past prime ministers and that's why that bill originated. There is a cost, I think a reasonably significant cost

in the case of the federal program. I believe it has cost about $1 million, but the ongoing cost to run the program is something like $100,000 per year.

This bill requires the Minister of Tourism, Culture and Recreation to mark the gravesites of former premiers of Ontario, and permits the minister to make

agreements for the care and preservation of these gravesites, including marking them with plaques and with the Canadian and Ontario flags. As I think of my father and how proud he was of being

Premier of this province, I'm sure he would love to have his gravesite marked in such a way. I just think of how proud he was to have had the honour of serving as Premier of this province.

It should be noted that the Ontario government currently has the Ontario Heritage Foundation plaque program, which recognizes important events, buildings and

people, including former premiers. In fact, 14 of them have plaques marking either their birthplace or somewhere in their constituency telling about them. So the Ontario government has taken some

efforts to remember our history, but this would be an important addition to that existing program.

Another important aspect of this program, as put forward by Mr Peters, is that it would only be done in consultation with the families and with the direct

support and cooperation of the families of the deceased, so there has to be that co-operation.

It is also worth noting that this program can be introduced immediately. It does not need legislation to go forward. That's certainly worth noting. It is going

to be a positive way of commemorating Ontario's history. It is also worth noting that Bill 143 may conflict with the Cemeteries Act, so that's something that would have to be dealt with, and there

are additional resources required to implement the program.

As you look down the list of all the past Premiers -- John Sandfield Macdonald, Edward Blake, Sir Oliver Mowat, Arthur Sturgis Hardy, Sir George William Ross

and Sir James Pliny Whitney -- many had unique lives and contributed greatly to the development of the province of Ontario. I think it is very much worthwhile remembering that history.

It's interesting to note there are three located in Mount Pleasant Cemetery alone: Sir William Howard Hearst, Sir Oliver Mowat and George Howard Ferguson,

three former premiers in that one cemetery.

The member from Beaches-East York said that the Ontario government doesn't recognize history, doesn't contribute to museums. I'd just like to relate that my

own personal experience has been --

Mr Prue: I didn't say that. They don't do enough.

Mr Miller: Don't do enough. In my experience in Parry Sound-Muskoka, I've been to the Parry Sound museum three or four times since being

elected, in the last nine months. It's a very active museum. I'm usually there to announce some form of funding through a government program. I'd just like to mention my experience has been

different.

In closing, I'd like to thank Mr Peters for bringing this bill forward. My father would be tickled pink. I'd like to personally thank him for bringing it

forward. It's a great way of remembering all that the past Premiers have done for this province and I hope it is implemented.

Mr Joseph N. Tascona (Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford): I'm pleased to speak on this initiative. I would say it's a positive initiative that's been put

forth by the member. It doesn't need legislation for it to actually come in place. Be that as it may, I want to mention that the Ontario Heritage Foundation, which is a non-profit agency of the

government of Ontario, has been established and has done great work with respect to preserving, protecting and promoting Ontario's rich and varied heritage. Most likely that would be the agency to

implement this piece of legislation if it goes forward.

An Act to preserve the gravesites of former premiers of Ontario is the initiative we are looking at here today. The Ontario Heritage Foundation already has a

provincial plaque program. I'd like to make reference to some of the initiatives they have because one touches close to home, which is my riding of Barrie-Simcoe-Bradford in Simcoe county. The only

Premier to have unveiled a plaque commemorating himself was the Honourable E.C. Drury, Premier during the administration of the United Farmers of Ontario from 1919 to 1923. It was unveiled in 1962

at Crown Hill in Simcoe county. I also know the family of the Honourable E.C. Drury, certainly Bob Drury, who served with distinction as the warden and also the reeve of Oro-Medonte, and other

members of the Drury family who are in Simcoe county.

As part of the plaque program of the Ontario Heritage Foundation -- I know the member is from this area of St Thomas -- there are even plaques for animals.

Jumbo, the famous circus elephant, was killed by a train in St Thomas in 1885. There's a plaque in St Thomas commemorating that. That's part of the work that has been done by the Ontario Heritage

Foundation.

The local marking program that they also have at the Ontario Heritage Foundation is part of the work. I think the public should be aware of the tremendous work

that is done by the Ontario Heritage Foundation in terms of bringing about, promoting, preserving and protecting our heritage. Certainly there are ways to participate in that. I know they've got a

Web site and other means of being connected in terms of the programs they provide, which have probably enriched the history and culture of any riding in any part of this province.

This is an initiative on Ontario's heritage that, as I said before, is a positive initiative. The former Premiers of Ontario -- the member from Muskoka spoke

very eloquently about his father, Frank Miller, who was one of that our Premiers name. What we need to keep in focus is the tremendous sacrifice that any person makes, in particular our Premiers,

with respect to entering public life in terms of the challenges they face and the good works they do. Being a father of four young children, I think it's important for our young people that we know

and emphasize our heritage, so they have a background and a rooting in our province and appreciate what has gone before, so that we can learn from our history in terms of moving this province

forward.

Mr Peters: I'd like to thank everybody who has participated in the debate today and, most importantly, my colleague from Parry Sound-Muskoka,

because he lived the life and seen the contribution his father made to politics. We also heard how proud he was of his father, that he had served as Premier of this great province.

Bill 143 would recognize the 18 graves of former Premiers and would also forever recognize future graves of Premiers living right now -- we've had 22 Premiers

serve this province. And nothing was intended to the Premier at all; it's sheer coincidence that we're debating this bill today as the Premier is about to depart this Legislature. We thank the

Premier for the contribution he has made in serving the citizens of Ontario.

Of interest too -- and the member from London-Fanshawe spoke about it -- is the prominent role the London area has played in bringing forward Premiers in this

province. You look at Robarts, Peterson, Blake, Ross and Hepburn -- all within about 20 miles of each other. Those great seeds that were planted in the London area have served this province over

the years.

I would ask that everybody support this bill, because this is a bill that truly does recognize those contributions of former Premiers in a non-partisan way.

More importantly, it will preserve for future generations how important it is to recognize the past.

With that, I will close. To all my colleagues and to everyone in Ontario, I wish the best through the holiday season and into 2002.

The Acting Speaker: This completes the time allocated for debating ballot item number 40.

NIKKEI HERITAGE DAY ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001 SUR LE JOUR

DU PATRIMOINE NIKKEI

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): I'll now place the question related to ballot item number 39.

Mr Wettlaufer has moved second reading of Bill 140,

An Act to proclaim Nikkei Heritage Day. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

Pursuant to standing order 96, this bill will be referred to the committee of the whole House.

Mr Wayne Wettlaufer (Kitchener Centre): Mr Speaker, I'd like to have this go to the standing committee on general government, please.

The Acting Speaker: Mr Wettlaufer has asked that this bill be referred to the standing committee on general government. Agreed? Agreed.

GRAVESITES OF FORMER

PREMIERS ACT, 2001 /

LOI DE 2001

SUR LES LIEUX DE SÉPULTURE

DES ANCIENS PREMIERS MINISTRES

The Acting Speaker (Mr Michael A. Brown): We'll now deal with ballot item number 40.

Mr Peters moved second reading of Bill 143,

An Act to preserve the gravesites of former premiers of Ontario. Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion

carry? Carried.

Mr Steve Peters (Elgin-Middlesex-London): I seek unanimous consent to refer Bill 143 to the standing committee on general government.

The Acting Speaker: Agreed? Agreed.

All matters relating to private members' public business being complete, this House stands adjourned until 1:30 of the clock.

The House recessed from 1201 to 1330.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE POLICIES

Ms Caroline Di Cocco (Sarnia-Lambton): As this is the last day we sit in this legislative session, I'd like to recap some of the effects of

the extreme neo-Conservative policies in my riding and across this province.

In 1997, it was the Conservative government that created the largest toxic hazardous waste dump in Canada in St Clair township. Today, Ontario is the only

jurisdiction in North America that does not treat hazardous waste before it is landfilled.

Sarnia-Lambton has seen 14 schools closed because of a flawed funding formula created by the current Conservative regime. Parents, students and members of my

community have watched helplessly as one school after another closes, tearing the heart out of neighbourhoods.

Today, 70% of people who need home care need it because they are released from hospital too quickly, yet home care has been cut. Yet Cabinet Office's costs

have increased by 116%. This government has borrowed $10 billion for tax cuts and added $22 billion to the debt.

The ultimate question after six years of uninterrupted, unprecedented growth: have we seen an improved health care system, a stable and improved education

system or better environmental protection? The answer unfortunately is no.

ACHIEVEMENTS OF PREMIER

Mrs Julia Munro (York North): I'm pleased to be able to take this opportunity to reflect on the achievements of our Premier, Mike Harris, and

his commitment to York North during his time as party leader and Premier.

Mike's 20-plus years at Queen's Park have included more than 11 as leader and six as Premier. Mike has always spoken and acted consistently on the issues

affecting us all: eliminating the deficit, cutting taxes, creating a more efficient and accountable government, increasing health care spending, and enhancing community safety.

In my riding of York North, families have benefited from the Premier's direct approach. My riding of York North has always figured prominently in setting the

course of action for our province and our party. In March 1990, at the annual general meeting of my riding association in the Sharon arena, Mike spoke to our membership about becoming leader of the

party. Five years later, in March 1995, he spoke to us at the Briars. This time Mike was leader and I was the candidate for Durham-York. In June 1999, he chose Newmarket to announce the election,

and ours was the first campaign office he visited. Just a few days before his announcement, he spoke to us at the home of Mike and Leah Springford in King township.

Under Mike's leadership, we have all made great strides. I'm sure all of you will join me in expressing our thanks to Mike Harris for his dedication to the

people of Ontario. Thank you, Premier.

ONTARIO MUNICIPAL BOARD

Mr Mike Colle (Eglinton-Lawrence): People all across this great province are fed up with the Ontario Municipal Board, this government's

anti-democratic dinosaur that overrides local taxpayers' and local governments' decisions in favour of developers who routinely bypass local councils and go directly to their friends at the dreaded

OMB, where the same special interests, with their deep pockets, can afford to spend millions of dollars hiring the best lawyers and consultants money can buy to impress the nameless, faceless OMB,

which even Judge Kennedy in London recently blasted, saying they denied the people of London natural justice. Even the OMB in London sent a lawyer to court in support of a developer's application

against the good citizens in London.

The OMB has become a huge money pit as a result of the increased powers given it by this government. It routinely overrides and disregards the wishes of the

people, whether it be in allowing a development on Niagara fruit land, development in High Park in Toronto, demolishing affordable housing or building apartments on beautiful Reservoir Hill in

London.

It's time to rein in this anti-democratic dinosaur and give our communities back their voice in planning and shaping their local communities.

ACHIEVEMENTS IN

TORONTO-DANFORTH

Ms Marilyn Churley (Toronto-Danforth): I live in and represent an incredible community: the riding of Toronto-Danforth. I could stand here

today and talk about all of the bad things that have happened in my community as a result of the so-called Common Sense Revolution, but what I want to talk about today and congratulate the citizens

of my community on are our successes in fighting the Harris destructive agenda.

Our community, all of us working together, were successful in keeping the Riverdale Hospital open, despite this government's attempts for two years to shut it

down. We won that fight. We fought the Harris government and we won it together.

We, together, in the community of Riverdale and East York stopped the closing of 11 schools that the Harris government wanted to do. We got together as a

community and we fought back and we fought back hard, and those schools are still open, thanks to the good work of the people in my community.

We were successful in keeping the NDP's financial commitment to expand the South Riverdale Community Health Centre. The minister of the day from the Harris

government finally went ahead and continued to give that funding, which of course would have fallen apart once the NDP left office, but the government did listen to us and provided that

funding.

Finally, because I don't have time to go any further than this, we were successful in getting a third councillor in East York due to the hard work of the

residents of East York after the forced amalgamation. Frances Lankin, Michael Prue and myself, working together with the citizens, fought the Tory government and we got the third councillor in

place.

I congratulate the citizens of my riding for being able to take on the Harris government, fight back, and win.

SANTA CLAUS PARADES IN

DUFFERIN-PEEL-WELLINGTON-GREY

Mr David Tilson (Dufferin-Peel-Wellington-Grey): One of the many pleasures I have in representing the riding of Dufferin-Peel-Wellington-Grey

is the fact that I get to participate in a number of different and unique Santa Claus parades held throughout the riding.

In the past month I've participated in six parades, with the seventh and final one happening this weekend in Holstein. The only parade I was unable to

participate in this year because of a conflict was in Arthur.

Some parades are large, detailed affairs, while others are intimate local events. Both seemed to be enjoyed equally by the audience. The Holstein Santa Claus

parade is always a unique experience that is enjoyed by young and old. In Holstein, the parade is non-motorized, so every imaginable sort of transportation is used to entertain the crowd.

If you haven't had the opportunity to attend this fun day, I would encourage you to do so this year. As a father of a three-year-old just discovering the

excitement of this holiday season, I would recommend the fastest way to get in the Christmas spirit is to join or watch a Santa Claus parade.

To all of the organizers in Bolton, Orangeville, Shelburne, Erin, Grand Valley, Arthur and Holstein, thank you for taking the time to put together these

wonderful symbols of the season.

To all the members of the Legislature, Mr Speaker, and to you, as well as the constituents watching from home, I would like to wish you all the best of the

holiday season. May your homes be filled with family and friends as you celebrate this wonderful time of year. Merry Christmas and happy new year.

CONSTRUCTION LABOUR MOBILITY

Mr Jean-Marc Lalonde (Glengarry-Prescott-Russell): My statement today is addressed to the Minister of Labour. Minister, last Monday you held a

press conference in Ottawa on the Quebec-Ontario construction labour mobility agreement that you signed two years ago. From day one I have told you, Minister, that Quebec would never respect this

agreement. I think this was just a big publicity stunt. Now you agree with me, and I quote: you said that the agreement doesn't work.

Well, Minister, when I told you that I had hundreds of examples of Ontario construction workers who were having problems working in Quebec, you didn't take me

seriously. Here are a few examples.

On the Champlain Bridge in Ottawa, Ontario heavy-equipment operators were let go when they reached the middle of the bridge. They couldn't continue working.

How about the Ontario construction workers who were fined $2,000 each for having construction tools in their cars parked on the Quebec side while working on the Ontario side? I could give you

hundreds of examples such as this.

The solution is to stop all Quebec contractors from working in Ontario. You must do it now, before the bridges are closed again by the Ontario workers.

Minister, bring back Bill 17, and don't tell me you can't enforce it, because right here I have the proof that this bill can be enforced.

ACHIEVEMENTS OF PREMIER

Mrs Tina R. Molinari (Thornhill): It is my pleasure today to pay tribute to our Premier, Mike Harris, for the great job he has done in putting

Ontario in the right direction.

Mike Harris began his term as Premier in 1995, campaigning on a number of promises, one of which was tax cuts for Ontarians, and he delivered on the tax cuts

and many more. Setting the standard of keeping promises through his six years as Premier was unprecedented. He has changed the face of politics by being a politician who actually did what he said

he was going to do: more jobs; tax cuts; 600,000 people off welfare; back-to-back balanced budgets for the first time in close to 100 years; the first Premier in over 40 years to win back-to-back

majority governments, a testament to the people of Ontario's belief that our government, under his leadership, would keep the promises we made.

When our world changed on September 11, it was Premier Mike Harris who showed the strong leadership that was needed at such a difficult time.

Premier, in your final days as Premier in this House, you once again have shown your leadership by fighting for not only the health care of the people of

Ontario but also the people of Canada. You are the only leader who has been helping working families in this province. I would like to thank you on behalf of all Thornhill residents and Ontarians

for the outstanding job you have done in serving this province. I've been proud to serve under your leadership.

AUTOMATION OF SOCIAL

ASSISTANCE SYSTEM

Mr Michael Gravelle (Thunder Bay-Superior North): I want to inform the Legislature and the public today about the shocking increase in

taxpayers' money that's being spent on the automation of the province's social welfare system. To say the costs are spiralling out of control is a massive understatement. We already know that

ministry payments to Accenture, formerly Andersen Consulting, have reached a staggering $193 million. We also know that that money was well in excess of the cap that the government committed to

spend on the project, and in fact the payment should never have been made until still-unproven savings were confirmed.

But it now turns out that the Accenture rip-off is just the tip of the iceberg. We have since discovered an additional $280 million in costs associated with

this failed automation project paid out to firms such as MFP Financial. So while the government says it can find no more money for health care, they paid out almost half a billion dollars to

unsuccessfully automate a system that still doesn't work and has garnered no clear savings for the government.

It gets worse still. We've just learned that the ministry will be hiring more outside consultants to operate this new system for an additional three years.

Apparently, this is happening because the ministry's own staff have somehow, inexplicably, not been trained to operate the new and still problem-plagued system.

Minister Baird, you've got to come clean on this scandalous boondoggle. How many more millions of dollars are you going to rip off from taxpayers to justify

this disastrous project? The bill to taxpayers keeps going up, administrative costs are rising, and there are no savings attached to this venture. This is a mess. It must be exposed and it must be

stopped.

EID UL-FITR

Mr Bob Wood (London West): Over one billion Muslims throughout the world have been observing a month of fasting and inner reflection during

Ramadan. Ramadan ends with the sighting of the new crescent of the moon, and is celebrated by the festival of Eid ul-Fitr.

Literally the festival of breaking the fast, Eid ul-Fitr is one of the two most important Islamic celebrations. Eid ul-Fitr is a day of joy and thanksgiving.

At Eid ul-Fitr, people dress in their finest clothes, adorn their homes with lights and decorations, give treats to children and enjoy visits with friends and family. A sense of generosity and

gratitude colours these festivities. Although charity and good deeds are always important in Islam, they have special significance at the end of Ramadan. As the month draws to a close, Muslims are

obligated to share their blessings by feeding the poor and making contributions to mosques.

Eid ul-Fitr also honours the universal values that are embodied in Islam -- love of family and community, mutual respect, the power of education and the

deepest yearning of all: to live in peace -- values that can bring people of every faith and culture together and strengthen us as a people and nation.

I know I speak on behalf of all members of this House in extending our best wishes and greetings to the Muslim community in Ontario as they celebrate this

auspicious occasion. To our Muslim friends: Kullu am wa antum bi-khair. In Arabic that means, "May you be well throughout the year."

REPORTS BY COMMITTEES

STANDING COMMITTEE

ON JUSTICE AND SOCIAL POLICY

Mr Carl DeFaria (Mississauga East): I beg leave to present a report from the standing committee on justice and social policy and move its

adoption.

Clerk at the Table (Mr Todd Decker): Your committee begs to report the following bill, as amended:

Bill 98,

An Act to proclaim May as South Asian Heritage Month and May 5 as South Asian Arrival Day / Projet de loi 98, Loi proclamant le mois de mai Mois de

l'héritage sud-asiatique et le 5 mai Jour de l'arrivée des Sud-Asiatiques.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Shall the report be received and adopted? Agreed.

Pursuant to the order of the House dated December 12, 2001, the bill is ordered for third reading.

Mr DeFaria: I beg leave to present a report from the standing committee on justice and social policy and move its adoption.

Clerk at the Table: Your committee begs to report the following bill, as amended:

Bill 105,

An Act to amend the Health Protection and Promotion Act to require the taking of blood samples to protect victims of crime, emergency service

workers, good Samaritans and other persons / Projet de loi 105, Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la protection et la promotion de la santé pour exiger le prélèvement d'échantillons

de sang afin de protéger les victimes d'actes criminels, les travailleurs des services d'urgence, les bons samaritains et d'autres personnes.

The Speaker: Shall the report be received and adopted? Agreed.

Pursuant to the order of the House dated December 12, 2001, the bill is ordered for third reading.

MOTIONS

HOUSE SITTINGS

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Education, Government House Leader): Pursuant to standing order 9(c)(iii), the House shall continue to meet until

midnight on Thursday, December 13, 2001, for the purpose of considering government business.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry?

All those in favour of the motion will please say "aye."

All those opposed will please say "nay."

In my opinion, the ayes have it.

Call in the members; this will be a five-minute bell.

The division bells rang from 1348 to 1353.

Clerk of the House (Mr Claude L. DesRosiers): The ayes are 83; the nays are 8.

The Speaker: I declare the motion carried.

Hon Mrs Ecker: Mr Speaker, I would just like to ask on behalf of all the members here if your staff would let us know how the page is doing

later today.

COMMITTEE

SCHEDULE

Hon Janet Ecker (Minister of Education, Government House Leader): I seek unanimous consent to move a motion -- which has been circulated

across the floor -- without notice, relating to committee meeting times during the winter adjournment and to have the question on the motion put without further debate or amendment.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is there unanimous consent? Agreed.

Hon Mrs Ecker: I move that the following committees be authorized to meet during the winter adjournment, and notwithstanding prorogation, as

follows:

The select committee on alternative fuel sources, to consider matters relating to its term of reference pursuant to the order of the House dated June 28,

2001;

The standing committee on finance and economic affairs, from February 25 to 28, 2002, inclusive, and from March 4 to 8, 2002, inclusive, for pre-budget

consultations, and on April 4, 2002, for the purpose of report writing;

The standing committee on justice and social policy, for up to two weeks, to consider the following bills: Bill 10,

An Act to revise the Limitations Act; and

Bill 31,

An Act to facilitate the making, recognition and variation of interjurisdictional support orders;

The standing committee on the Legislative Assembly, to consider parliamentary reform, pursuant to the order of the House dated October 15, 2001; and

The standing committee on public accounts for up to 12 days during the month of February and during the first week of March to complete report writing,

consider private members' public bills and to consider the annual report of the Provincial Auditor; and

That the committees be authorized to release reports by depositing a copy of any report with the Clerk of the Assembly during the winter adjournment or between

the second and third session of the 37th Parliament, as the case may be, and that in any case the Chairs of the committees shall bring any such reports before the House not later than the first

sessional day reports from committees may be received when the House next meets.

The Speaker: Mrs Ecker moves that the following committees be authorized to meet during the winter adjournment:

The select committee on alternative fuel sources, to consider matters relating to its term of reference pursuant to the order of the House dated June 28,

2001;

The standing committee on finance and economic affairs, from February 25 to 28, 2002, inclusive, and from March 4 to 8, 2002, inclusive, for pre-budget

consultations, and on April 4, 2002, for the purpose of report writing;

The standing committee on justice and social policy, for up to two weeks, to consider the following bills: Bill 10,

An Act to revise the Limitations Act; and

Bill 31,

An Act to facilitate the making, recognition and variation of interjurisdictional support orders;

The standing committee on the Legislative Assembly, to consider parliamentary reform, pursuant to the order of the House dated October 15, 2001; and

The standing committee on public accounts for up to 12 days during the month of February and during the first week of March to complete report writing,

consider private members' public bills and to consider the annual report of the Provincial Auditor; and

That the committees be authorized to release reports by depositing a copy of any report with the Clerk of the Assembly during the winter adjournment or between

the second and third session of the 37th Parliament, as the case may be, and that in any case the Chairs of the committees shall bring any such reports before the House not later than the first

sessional day reports from committees may be received when the House next meets.

Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? Carried.

VISITORS

Mr Mike Colle (Eglinton-Lawrence): On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I'd like to welcome to the House staff and students of Vaughan Road

Academy, including the brother of one of our pages, Andrew Persaud. His brother Raymond is here also from Vaughan Road Academy.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): We do have a number of members who -- we will probably treat this like a budget; we don't introduce all the

members, because there are too many. It would take all afternoon, and I'm sure they would rather listen to some other things. But we do welcome all our colleagues who are here.

TRIBUTES TO THE PREMIER

Hon Robert W. Runciman (Minister of Economic Development and Trade): Mr Speaker, I believe we have unanimous consent for each party to make

some brief remarks on the occasion of the Premier's last day in the Legislature and for the Premier to speak in response.

The Speaker (Hon Gary Carr): Is there unanimous consent? Agreed.

Hon Mr Runciman: It is a great honour and privilege for me to rise today on behalf of the Progressive Conservative caucus to pay tribute to

Premier Mike Harris on what is likely to be the last sitting day of the Ontario Legislature with Mike Harris as Premier. This is a day to say thank you to a Premier and a leader for a job well done

and to recognize the significant contributions he has made to our province. So there is, of course, an element of celebration today.

But there is also a touch of sadness, especially for me as a fellow member of the class of `81. I'm starting to feel old. There are just two of us left on this

side of the House who were elected in March 1981 and have been in this place ever since, over 20 years, almost 21; a long time. I want to say a few words about those early days.

Mike Harris was recognized as a comer from his first days at Queen's Park. Premier Davis gave him the opportunity to be a parliamentary assistant and to train

at the foot of a politician who knew the secrets to advancement: the member for Sarnia, Andrew Brandt. That tutelage paid off when on February 8, 1985, Mike Harris entered the cabinet of the late

Premier Frank Miller, a wonderful man for whom all of us had the greatest respect.

Mike Harris served as Minister of Natural Resources, and I sat beside him in my capacity as Minister of Government Services. One thing that struck me back then

was his air of understated confidence. It was the confidence of someone who listens hard to understand the aspirations of the quieter folks who really make Ontario work. It's a powerful strength

that others have underestimated at their peril and to their regret.

After the Liberal-NDP accord of 1985, Mike Harris served as our party's House leader. Those who were here at the time will vividly remember that that was a

difficult and disheartening time to be a Progressive Conservative MPP. After the 1987 election, it got even worse. We were down to just 16 seats, our leader had been defeated, and many of us had

been re-elected by the smallest of margins: 198 votes in my own case. But Mike Harris as our House leader was a tower of strength and a source of inspiration during those dark days.

Then in 1990 he took on a job that few people aspired to, leading a third-place party mired in debt and with few prospects. Sound familiar, Howard? But Mike

Harris did take on that job, and almost immediately, David Peterson decided to call a snap election before our new leader had a chance to raise any money or find any candidates or come up with any

new policies. We all know how that turned out. Premier Peterson was right that we wouldn't have time to develop a detailed policy platform, but Mike Harris made the crucial decision to fight that

election on the one clear promise to cut taxes. In that campaign he earned the name "The Taxfighter," a badge of honour to this day.

No one would have predicted the outcome of that election, not even my friends in the current third party. But one important thing that I think of, again in

retrospect, is that Mike Harris was underestimated. There's a story from that election that the late Colin Vaughan, a CityTV reporter, filed a report on the first day of the campaign as Mike

Harris's tour bus, dubbed "Taxfighter One," pulled away from Queen's Park. Colin closed his report by saying, "There goes Mike Harris. Who cares?" Well, I think Mike Harris has always had a talent

for being underestimated that has served him very well.

I also think that the period between 1990 and 1995 was a critical period if you really want to understand the success of the Harris government after 1995. Mike

Harris led a caucus of 10 veterans and two newly elected, enthusiastic rookies. You'll remember that, Mr Speaker. We were still in third place, but I can tell you quite sincerely that our leader

instilled and developed in our caucus, in our staff and in our supporters a sense of vision, a sense of mission, a sense of teamwork and a recognition of the critical importance of going out and

talking to and listening to the people of Ontario.

Mike Harris led by example. He led by example in showing a respect for the views of ordinary Ontarians who for too long had been lacking in elected leaders. I

believe that's been his key to success all along. As an aside, Mike Harris was an extremely well travelled party leader, and it may have been that familiarity with the names of the rivers, lakes

and bays of the province that inspired Mike Harris in May 1991 to read into Hansard the name of every body of water in Ontario. On that occasion, the Taxfighter was attempting to prevent passage of

the NDP budget, with its tax hikes and $10-billion deficit. That may go down as the last great filibuster in this House. It was very inspirational, Mr Speaker, as you remember.

This emphasis on keeping in touch with the people on Main Street goes to the heart of Mike Harris as an MPP and as a party leader and to his success as

Premier. He always remembered that it was the people of Nipissing who sent him to Queen's Park and the people of all the communities, large and small, across Ontario who put him in the Premier's

office. They trusted him to represent them, and he was committed to making sure that trust was honoured. That, I believe, is the heart of what Mike Harris is about: a promised made is a promise

kept.

By the time Mike Harris ran in 1995, the biggest political hurdle he or any other leader had to overcome was the strong feeling Ontarians had that it simply

didn't matter who they voted for. Over the previous decade, they had been fundamentally and systematically let down by all parties, who said one thing to get elected and did quite another once in

office. That undermined the credibility of the process in the minds of our citizens. Mike Harris restored that confidence by seeking clear mandates, forcing honest debates and by keeping faith with

the millions of Ontarians who gave him their trust. He said what he was going to do. He made no apologies for it. Even when the experts said, "It's impossible; it'll never happen," he told everyone

who would listen. And when he was elected, he did exactly what he said he would do.

Support or oppose his policies, everyone must concede you always know where Mike Harris stands and you can always count on him to keep his word. In 1995 that

was radical, that was new. I believe Mike Harris has fundamentally changed politics in Ontario, and in Canada as well.

Ontario, because of Mike Harris's leadership, has changed. Because of Mike Harris, Ontario is a better place. I'm just going to briefly mention a few of those

highlights: 192 tax cuts since 1995, more than 800,000 new jobs, nearly 30,000 new business start-ups, more than 600,000 Ontarians off welfare, the largest single expansion of parks and protected

space in our history, the elimination of the deficit and breaking the yoke of onerous taxation, and much, much more. All of these things form a lasting legacy.

But I also want to speak of another legacy, a legacy which is personified by the presence with us today of Premier Harris's two sons, Mike Junior and Jeffrey.

All of us in this chamber today, I believe, got into politics not because we sought the spotlight but because we wanted to make a difference. We wanted to make our neighbourhood and our hometown

and our province a better place for ourselves, for our families and for those who come after us, to secure a brighter future for our children. I say through you, Mr Speaker, to the Premier, there

can be no greater legacy than to know that you have made Ontario a better place for your own two sons and for all of our children and for the generations of Ontarians that come after us. Premier,

you have ma