Vol-1 NL. 4 PRELIMINARY UNED [TEL) TRANSCRIIT hOUSE OF ASSEMBL( FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 A.M. - 1:00 P.M. FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 26, 1982

November 26, 1982 Tape 2752 NM - 1 The House met at 10:00 A.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, p1ease ORAL QUESTIONS: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am amazed. This is Friday and no heat shield again today to try to get the weekend press. They have given up apparently. Mr. Speaker, these are very poor times for the Premier to he out of the Province. I do not think I could think of a worse time. You have a crisis in the fishery, a crisis in the forest industry, and the Premier is qallivantinq around Europe. Only a skunk, Mr.

Speaker, would run away from problems when we are into the worse situation we have ever had in our whole history in the economy, and only a skunk would run away from his responsibilities and his duties. Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) . I am forced to ask him because the Premier is over gallivantinq around Europe with the information - MR._BAIRD: lie is supporting the scalers. MR. NEARY: Could I have silence, Mr. Sneaker? MR. BAIRD: You do not deserve silence. MR. SPEAKER: Order, p1ease We] 1. the hon. gentleman will find out in a minute if I deserve silence or not.

The question I am going to ask has to do with the hon. qentiman's own riding. The Premier is over gallivanting around Europe I I 5773

November 26, 1982 Tape 2752 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: with information that he was given last Wednesday by Bowaters about drastic measures that are going to Lake place in Corner Brook, on the West Coast, that will effect the whole West Coast 4 of the Province, and he is gone off to Europe with that information. And out in Corner Brook, the people out there a do not know what is happening. The employees are calling me. Other people in Corner Brook are calling me - SOME lION. MEMBERS : Oh, oh MR. NEARY: - to find out What 5 going on.

Now could the Acting Premier tell the louse what is going on, what information Bowaters conveyed to the Premier last week at their meeting in connection with something drastic that is about to Lake place in Corner Brook. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, first of all I know that all of the people, sarticularly in the rural areas of the Province who are depending to a great degree upon the income that is derived from the seal fishery, will welcome the words and note the words made by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) , that the hon.

Premier is gallivanting around Europe when he is trying to save - md you know, a skunk and all of this type of thing, because he is over trying to protect the seal fishery of this Province in Europe a very, very I might say necessary viSit, Mr. Speaker, that was arranged by the Premier, And even the great hero of the 4 lion, member there opposite, the one that he makes an apology for day after day a Iter da\', no loss a personage than 5774

November 26, 1982 Tape 2752 NM - 3 MR. MARSHALL: the Prime Minister of Canada himself, thoughL it meet and right that the Premier should be over there od L ho h 5775

November 26,1982 Tape No. 2753 ah-1 MR. MARSHALL: with the Premier being over there, Ihat he could lend a great deal to the situation to avoid the problems of the seal fishery and preserve it in this Province. So I am glad that the hen. gentleman interprets tha L as gallivanting around. I also, Mr.

Speaker, want to say again that the hon. gentleman, just loves to make statements of the nature that he has made and I can say that they arc with respect to the question that the hon. gentleman has asked, you know, the way in which he frames his questions, geared for sensationalism, geared for his own base political purposes regardless and completely careless of the effect that may have on people in this Province be they the seal people who work in the seal fishery, the fishermen, the logger, the people who work in the pulp and paper industry, the people who work in the mining industry, he does not care, Mr.Spcaker, just as long as he can spew his little innueridoc and make the kind of statments that he made.

Now, Mr.Speaker, I can state that the people from Bowaters and that did have a discussion with the Premier. And incidentally as far as the Premier ir concerned even though he is very busy over in Europe he is in daily contact with the affairs here,in this °rovince. MR. HISCOCK: By satellite? MR.MARSHALL: No, by telephone and by other mechanisms pretty well on an hourly basis. And the situation is that there have been meetings and ministers are going to be meeting further with J3owaters within the next few days. And I am not in a position at 5776

November 26,1982 Tape No. 2753 ah-1 MR.MJ\RSIIALL: this time, I do not think it seives the public iritcrestto make any more dofinitive statement other than that. ARY: Mr.Speakor. MR.SPEAKER(Russ(-,

U) The hon.Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr.Spea]-er, the hon. gentleman may not like the way I phrase my questions but I have to repeat that Only a louse and a skuik would run away from the disaster that is pending in Coiner Brook. MR.SPEAKER: Order, 1lease MR.MARSJIALL: A point of order. MR. SPEAKER: The President of the Council haa a point of order. MR.MARSFIALL: Mr. Speaker, we overlooked this before in the hun. gentleman because that is his 5777

November 26, 1982 Tape 2754 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: style, but it is in Beauchesne that one member is not allowed to refer to another member in that manner and I think, particularly in these circumstances. The Leader of the Government happens to be over in Europe for a stated purpose, a purpose that everyone * agrees with, not only here in Newfoundland but in Canada, with the exception of the hon. gentleman and I think the hon. gentleman must withdraw those remarks, Mr. Speaker. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Opeaker. MR. SIEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr.

Speaker - SOME lION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Ordei , please! MR. ROBERTS: When the hon. gentlemen opposite are quiet, let me say a word or two. It is, of course, up to Your Honour to rule what is Parliamentary or not. The books are filled with expressions that have been found to be acceptable and they are filled with expressions that have been found to be unacceptable. It is not up to the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) to decide, but the Government House Leader quite properly may raise a point of order. My hon. friend, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) has used etrong language; a it is not vulgar, it is not offensive. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, Hase! Order, pleuse! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if hon. gentlemen opposite wish to let me say what I am allowed to say, I would like to carry on without the barrackinq of these gentlemen. 5778

November 26, 1982 Tape 2754 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: I know we have hit a tender spot, I know Lhey a'e ashamed that the Premier has left the Province at this time, but that is beside the point. The point I wish to make, Mr. Speaker, is that the language is strong, it is not intemperate. MR. REID: It is vulgar language, contemptible. AN HON. MEMBER: Only a skunk would say it. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, if the gentleman from Trinity - Bay du Verde who is bothering us would be quiet, I would like to finish my few remarks. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! MR. ROBERTS: The language is strong, it is not intemperate.

My friend, the Leader of the opposition (Mr. Neary) feels, vEry obviously, that the Premier's conduct is most reprehensible and all he is doing is expressing that in acceptable but strong language. I suggest, Sir, these words are riot unparliamentary and that my hon. friend, the Opposition Leader, ought to be allowed to carry on with his que:tion and then we will see what answer, if any, we get From the other side. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The Question Period seems to have gotten off to a very poor start.

I must admit that the hon. the Leader of the Opposition perhaps should confine himself to the limits within the Question Period and I refer to Beauchesne, Page 129, which says, "In putting a question a member must confine himself to the narrowest limits. In making a question, observations which might lead to debate cannot be regarded as coming within the proper limits of a question. The purpose of a question is to obtain information and not to supply it to the House.' So I would ask hon. members to adhere to that. 5779

November 26, 1982 Tape 2754 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, could the hon. the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) , tell the House - because the people in Corner Brook know there is something going on; they have been calling our office, they have been calling me at home and in the office to try to find out what is going on. I am told that the Premier had a meeting with Bowaters and this was confirmed by the Government house Leader. Now, would the hon. gentleman tell the House 5780

November 26, 1982 'lope No. 2555 NJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: what inormation was conveyed to the Premier last week and why is he not here in the Province? • Because, Mr. Speaker, we hear different figures being bandied about in Corner Brook ranging from 100 up to 800 or 1,000 • people :o be laid off. We hear reports about cuts in production rancjing anywhere from 10 per cent up to 30 per cent, now, Mr. Speaker. So, could the hon. gentleman tell us just precisely what information was conveyed to the Premier and why the Premier is not here to deal with this matter?

Because jobs in Corner Brook are just as important as jobs in the sealing industry. MR. WM. MARSHALl,: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the President of the Coucil. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, we are well aware that jobs in any sector of this Province are just as important in one part of the Province as the other. The situation is as I have explicitly said, the Premier has had conversations with the people from Powat?rs it is not Unusual for the Premier, I might say, to have conversations with people from either Bowaters or any Jorge employer from time to time in this Province.

Mini sfers of this government will be visiting Bowaters in the very near fuLure, the Premier is in constant contact with the situ ft.ion. I do not wish and I do not think, Mr. Speaker, it is in the public interest at this particular time to make any statement with respect to what went on in the conversations. These conversations • are a matter of discussion and when it is propitious to do it - and when I say propitious I mean in the best interest of this Province and the best interest of everyone concerned - then a statement will be made.

In the meantime I would suggest to tho hon. gentleman that he does not attemot by squirting his own little bits of political interest 5781

November 26, 1982 Tape No. 2755 MJ -2 MR.WM. MARSHALL: in his trying to further himself politically, that he doe:; not by his questions aggravate any potential situation or at the same time, Mr. Speaker, cause concern in quarters of this Province until such time as a problem becomes realistic. MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is attaching motives to ily line of questioning. I believe that is against the rules of the House, Mr. :peaker.

My only motive for asking these questions is that the Premier has information that he has carried off to Europe with him, that he should have been consultinq with the city council in Corner Brook and the unions in Corner Brook and the people of Corner Brook.Instoad of withholding the information and covering it up he should have been holding discussions to try to stave off an impending disaster in Corner Brook. Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the hon. gentleman if the Premier reported the discussions that he had to the Cabinet and to the members of the House of Assembly from the Corner Brook area, the four members who represent that area in this house, has that information been conveyed to Cabinet r to the MHAs who represent that area in this House? MR. WM. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR._SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, { have nothing iurther to acid to what I said. The lect of the matter is all of these matters are it matter of deep concern.

You know, any matter with respect to industry in this Province, to 1n and 5782

November 26, 1982 Tape 2756 PK - 1 jobs security is a matter that is of great concern to the government of this Province, to tho Premier, and to the ministers, and to all members of the caucus, and any attempt by the hon. gentleman them opposite to give a different impression is completely and absolutely without any foundation whatsoever.

I can only repeat to the hon. gentleman what I have already said that there have been conversations between the Premier and officials of Bowaters, that meetings are going to be takirg ploce between representatives of the government and Bowaters, that it does not appear at this time that it is in the public interest to make a report but as soon as it is a report or an announcement or a statement or what have you, will be made. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.

NEARY: What a shameful dereliction of duty for the Premier to have this information and to allow the people of Corner Brook to suffer while he gallivants around Europe. Mr. Speaker, it is a shame[ul dereliction of duty. Now lot me ask the hon. gentleman if the Premier was told by Bowaters that in due course, next Tuesday or Wednesday, they would he holding a news conference to make some announcements? And we have been unable to find out from the hon. gentleman what these announcements may be.

And this is the real reason the Premier wanted to oct o'iF of the Province so he would not be here when bad newswasbeincj announced. Could the hon. gentleman tell us if,indeed,that is so, that Bowaters will be calling a press conference, a news conference next week? And the Premier should be here in the Province when that news conference is called. Will there b,indeed (a news conference next week to announce good news or lad news or whatever news 5783

November 26, 1982 Tape 2756 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: it was that Bowaters conveyed to the Premier that he is withholding from this House and the people of this Province? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I can only respond now with the measure of contempt that I feeland I am sure most people would feel with statements made by the lion. gentleman about any member of this House, be it the Premier or any member opposite,galiivanting , as he says, around Europe when situations that he is alleging,which may or may not have foundations,are occurring.

Of course, that is the type and manner and way and we are all used to the hon. member getting on that way, but when he gets on that way, when he is talking about matters so deeply affecting the livelihood of persons in this Pravince , I say it is beneath contempt that the hon. gentleman is acting in this way in the course of his questions. MR. SIMMS: Irresponsible. MR. MARSHALL: But, Mr. Speaker, all I can say,once again with respect to Bowaters.I am not in a position to make any statement as to what Bowaters will or will not say.

I mean,whatever Bowaters will or will not say will be said by Bowaters and would not be said by the government of this Province. * 5784

November 26, 1982 Tape 2757 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: I am not at this point in time prepared,because I say sincerely, and he can impute whatever he wants to, Mr. Speaker, with anybody 4 in this government or in this House, or in this Province, but I say that it is purely and simply a matter of considering and balancing the public interest at this time that we shall say no farther with respect to it except to say that meetings are ongoing and the government is executing its responsiblities in this area in a responsible fashion as it has in all other areas. And we will do that, Mr.

Speaker, despite the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) and the members there opposite. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, these ongoing meetings the hon. gentleman is talking about, the Premier should be here to attend these meetings. And the hon. gentleman can sit on the information all he wants. The people of Corner Brook are demanding to know (ust exactly what transpired between Bowaters and the Premier and they are entitled to have that information, and not have it with- held from them the sarile as the information was withheld on the budget. And, Mr.

Speaker, I remember in July, a representative of Fishery Products made a similar statement to that the hon. gentleman just made, when he blasted me; he said, "Fishery Products Chairman blasts Neary." MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. SPEAKER. Order, please The hon. President of the Council on a point of order. 785

November 26, 1982 Tape 2757 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, there is a time and a place for speeches in this House. Sometimes the speeches are good, sometimes they are tasteless, In most cases when the hon. gentleman gives a speech it is tasteless. So I think, Mr. Speaker, that we can be spared from his tasteless speeches during the Question Period. The Question Period is for asking questions. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) appears to be getting into the realm of debate and I would ask him to be a bit more concise with his question. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is not the first time that I have been accused that my statements have been unfounded and irresponsible. Nir. Monroe made a similar statement in July. The fact of the matter is the Premier should be in this House and in this Province - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please Order, please MR. NEARY: - with the crisis we have in the fishery and in the forest industry. MR. SPEAKER: Order, pleasc Order, please Does the hon. Leader of the Opposition have a ques! ion? MR.

NEARY: Yes, I want to ask the Minister of Education, who represents one of these districts out there in Corner Brook, on the West Coast, if indeed the news is drastic? If there is a drastic set back in the economy of Corner Brook? Will the hon. Minister of Education undertake to persuade the government to reverse a decision I 5786

November 26, 1982 Tape 2757 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: made to have the Fisheries College located in St. John's? Will the hon. minister, under whose department comes the Fisheries College, try to persuade the government to reverse a decision made by the Premier to have the Fisheries College located in St. John's, and have it located in Corner Brook? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Thc hon. Minister of Education. MS. VERGE: Mr. Speaker, I thought the member opposite was supporting Port aux I3asques as the location for the Fisheries College. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Heor, hear MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.

ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, that,of course, would differentiate him from the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) who is known for not :upporting her own constituency, would it not? Let me ask a question of the Minister of Health who has been sitting there all week watching - MR. CARTER: Some people are polite, that is more than we can say about the hon. gentleman. MR. ROBERTS: - watching, Mr. Speaker, the health services of the Province 5787

November 26,1982 Tape No. 2758 ah-1 deteriorate around his ]iead. No doubt he was aware before it was made,the announcement by St. dare's Mercy Hospital here in St. John's, yesterday, of quite drastic layoffs and curtailments in the services they are offering. I wonder p if the minister could first of all share with us a little of his knowledge and teLl the House why St. dare's has been so badly hit. It would appear that St. Clare's,which is one of the essential base hospitals in the Province, St. Clare's has been worse hit than any other hospital in the Province,based on what we know publicly.

And,of course, the minister may know more that we do, but could he tell us why St. dare's has been so very badly hit, and why it appears to have been singled out for such drastic treatment? MR.SPEA}CER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Health. MR.HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, the hospital budgets were all determined on a fairly scientific basis during the year with boards submitting their budgets and , of course, the government officials , the Department of Health officials assess Lng them and tryinq to live with the money we had.

And, of course, what we did was take the base budgets and sort of added something in the vicinity of 15.5 per cent to it. MR.ROBERfS: What was the date of the budget? The 1981-:2 Budget? MR.HOUSE: The 1981-82 budget, yes, and added about 15.5 per cent to that and took into consideration various other problems and came up with the figure for all the hospitals. At the same time we did that we wrote the hospitals,in June,tellinq them that this was the amount of money they had. I believe St. Clare's has the second highest budget in the Province. We gave

November 26,1982 Tape No. 2758 ah-2 MR.11OUSE: them the figure and said that this would be the total figure for this particular year. I again wrote them in September and said the same thing. Now what had happened in previous years was the hospitals had a severe shortage of nurses.

Every year since I have been minister,I guess, and every year that I can remember there has been a shortage of nurses in the Summer and a lot of the hospitals, of course, when they could hire nurses they hired them.So St. dare's and a few others hired perhaps a completely full staff and , of course, they exceeded their budget and now they have to take measures to cut back to live within their budget.

And what St. dare's is doing - I met with them yesterday incidentally, the day before yesterday, and what they are doing is having a short- term layoff now to try and meet the budget requirement within this fiscal year. MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister, lie appears to be saying,ind I want to be sure that I understand it, that St. Claire's overhired, that they hired more people than they wore authorized to, or more people than there was money available to pay. He is nodding affirmatively.

Hansard will not pick up an affirmative nod I say to the minister, but it will pick up his words. 4 5789

November 26, 1982 Tape 2759 PK - 1 Let me then ask him this he said, his officials, the government which he represents in this matter, took the base budget, the 1981-1982 year's figures and added 15.8 per cent and that is whit the hospitals have been given. And I gather, perhaps h ~ could confirm this as well, Mr. Speaker, the hospitals have been told recently that what they were told in April month they were going to get is all they are going to get and that is what has caused these layoffs, of course.

Now the base budget,was that the actual expenditures in 1981-1982,that fiscal year, or was it the authoritized expenditures? And the minister I know will agren that these are two very different figures, Every hospital in the Province for years has had a cushion, as has the Department of Health,huilt into the estimates, Mr. Speaker, in the sense that a hundred positions are authorized and yet all hands know Lhat 100 will be 1,200 person months and all hands know that there will not be 1,200 person months of employment because of difficulties in recruiting.

So could the minister tell us whether that 15.8 per cent was applied to the authorized expenditure levels or was it applied to the actual expenditure levels? MR. SPEAKER_(Russell): The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I think it is to the actual expenditure Levels, but I believe it took in a certain peak month, and it took in what they call additions, the accumulative affects of what they did last year.

In other wordsa hospital was given a base budget.Jf they could not hire, and last year there were a lot of cases where they could not, they did not get all of the money, because they did not hire, certain amounts of money,, We actually spent all of the money. 5790

November 26, 1982 Tape 2759 PK - 2 MR. HOUSE: But it was,I thinkbased on what they actually spent last year and not what they were budgeted for. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again I thank the minister. So it comes out it is not a 15.8 per cent in their budgets it is a 15.8 per cent increase in their actual expenditures incurred last year. So would the minister then agree that what has happened is the number of authorized positions has in effect been cut?

Because last year if 100 positions were authorized and only 90 were filled, the only money spent was for the 90 positions. And he put a 15.8 per cent increaoo on those 90 positions. So far I think he will concur that wnat I have said is correct.

Now given the increase in wages which is beyond the control of the hospitals because of the contract signed by NHA and with the government's knowledge and blessing and with the hospitals knowledge and blessing, and given the increase in supplies which the hospitals must purchase, the cost of which they have no control over, it would follow, and I want the minister to confirm this, that hat the 5791

November 26, 1982 Tape 2760 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: government have done is cut the authorized staff complement of the hospitals in the Province and St. Clara's, which apparently is worse off than other hospitals, is worse off - and the minister perhaps could confirm this because it had been able c to recruit far less of its authorized complement last year than had any other hospital in the Province. Is that what really has happened? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I do not think that is the case.

They were able to recruit as many, I think, as most other hospitals list year. The fact of the matter is I do not think they started early enough in the year to take into considerabion that they had to live live within the budgeted anounts. I guess they took some- what of a calculated risk. The fact of the matter is it is not as simple as just saying, 'We will take the base amount and just add 15.5 per cent. There are a lot of procedures they go through. MR. ROBERTS: Oh, I know that, but I want to hear what the minister says. MR.

HOUSE: They go through assessing the medical needs, the surgical needs, and their equi'went and dressings, that sort of thing, software materials, and I think they do it as scientifically as they possibly can. I do not think anybody is blaming - most hospitals will say, of course, they do not got their fair due, but when you consider that we have put, I believe, something like - the hospital budget has gone from $60 million to $288 million in ten years we have to realize that, You know, it does not seem that there are too many 5792

November 26, 1982 Tape 2760 EC - 2 MR. HOUSE: people hurting in the Province. And I will say, Mr. Speaker, right now, even with these layoffs - and these are short-term - we are going to have more people in the health field now than ever we had before and more beds oPen than we ever had before. So I think,basically, hospitals were treated reasonably fairly, as reasonably as could be. You cannot equate two hospitals and say they are exactly alike. St. Clara's, I think,cJtS as i said, the second largest budget, very close to the Grace, very close to Western Memorial. MR.

ROBERTS: The Health Sciences is surely the largest. MR. HOUSE: The Health Sciences is the largest. The Health Scinces, of course has the main building and the Miller Centre, which is also filled, and it is, I guess, the crisis centre of the Province. MR. ROBERTS: It is the base hospital for the whole Province. MR. HOUSE: Pardon? MR. ROBERTS: It is the base hospital for the whole Province, the only tertiary care unit in the Province. MR. HOUSE: Right, and there are about - well, the Janeway, we coil that a teraiary one also for the children.

I think about 60 per cent of the people from outside the city limits are occupants of that particular hospital. So I do not think we can say, you know, that the base that we started from was not adequate, bocause it took a lot of other things into consideration. I rserve, incidentally, the right to correct if I have made an error in that I am pretty certain we go from the base of the real 5793

November 26, 1982 Tape 2760 EC - 3 build in the other things. MR. ROBERTS: MR. SPEAKER (Russell) Strait of Belle Isle. expenditure last year and Mr. Speaker. The hon. the member for the p MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I appreciate what the minister says and if he has inadvertently misreinembered then we would appreciate the correction. It should be noted though, he has changed completely the ground on which he is defending this action and he did not 5794

November 26, 1982 Tape No. 2761 MJ - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: either confirm or deny, but I suggest it is correct, that the number of authorized staff positions has been reduced.

Now, let me come back to another word or phrase the minister has used, I believe, two or three times in the course of the information he has given us this morning: He has spoken of short--term layoffs and he has told us the hospitals are laying off staff to reduce over-expenditures and he has told us they incurred over-expenditures because they hired more people than there wis money to provide for therr and he has also shifted the blame to the administration of St. dare's. His words were, I think, 'They took a calculated risk, they did not begin to cut back as early as they should. Fair enough, sobeit.

But I want him to tell the House how these could be considered short term expenditures. Is he telling the ilouse that hospitals next year will be given enough of an increase not only to allow them to meet the extra costs which they must meet in staff and in supplies - the services and goods which they purchase - but they are going to be given enough extra money, enough extra staff positions to enable them to provide jobs for the 160 people who have been given short term layoffs?

I suggest to the minister that most of these layoffs will be permanent, or a great number of them will be prmanent, they have been told they are laid off until 31, March because that,of • course,is the end of the hospitals fiscal year, the same as the government's year. How could he say they are short-term? • Can he give the hospitals any asrurance now that they will be provided in the next year's estimates with enough money to enable them not only to carry on at their present levels but at the increased levels which these people represent? MR.W. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER(RusseLl): The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, we have not made any 5795

November 26, 1982 Tape No. 2761 MJ - 2 MR. W.HOUSE: final decision on next years budget for hospitals or for anything else for that matter. The fact of the matter is we have to look at things in total perspective and, bearing in mind what I said at the beginninq about the exces:;ive costs of hospital care and how it has escalated in the last number of years , you have to bear in mind one other thing; that the health field, as a lot of the other social field;, is becoming almost insatiable. So, you know, you caonot :;ay how many of these will be lonq- term layoffs or what not.

The fact of the matter is I pot • note here this morning and I was talking to Sister Lucy • couple of days ago - basically the major number of layoffs is going to be between December 3rd uid the Christmas period. MR. E. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) that is when they are closing all of their beds. MR. HOUSE: That is when the major layoff is going to be, for the period of about five weeks during the Christmas and the January season when the hospital is pretty well down for the Christmas season. p 5796

November 26, 1982 Tape 2762 NM - 1 MR. HOUSE: The remainder will be off until the end of March. What happens then we do not know, it will depend on the budget and we will have a handle on it by that time. But I cannot say that there will not be any layoffs, I cannot say what the level will be. But generally speaking, you know, if we follow the form that we have in past years it will be a reasonable increase. And you have to bear in mind too, Mr.

Speaker, that all of our health and social programmes have been predicated on the basis of established programmes financing, or funding, which was done in the last five years on a very generous percentage increase per year. And when you look atof course,what happened this year, we got around 10 per cent in that EPF- or less than 10 per cent in that, but 10 per cent in equalization and EPF, we have got to trim our budgets to take care of this.

If we had gotten a reasonable increase, the same as we did in the last five years, I daresay we would have been able to find $7 million or $8 million to be able to take care of these short-term problems. But as it stands now we are sticking with this dollar figure and we are in touch with the hospitals every day, and we are reasonably assured that there is going to be a hiqh level of care. The quantity will suffer somewhat in St. Clare's,and the Janeway, incidentally, but the quality will remain high. And as I said, there are more beds in use in the Province now than at any other time in our history. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please The time for Question Period has expired. Before we proceed with other business, I would like to welcome two groups of students to our galleries today, fifteen students from St. Boniface 5797

November 26, 1982 Tape 2762 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : High School on Bell Island, and their teacher Loui; Benoit. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, heart MR. SPEAKETh. And fifty-five students from Mary Queen of the World School, in the district of Mount Pearl, accompanied by their teachers, Glavine and Quinn, and I welcome you people to the galleries today. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to table two reports, the Annual Report of the Northern Oceans Research and Development Corporation, and the Annual Report of the Gander Development Corporation. NOTICES OF MOTION: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Revise The Law Respecting Innkeepers". MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, 'An Act To Amend The Co-operatives Societies Act'. 5798

November 26, 1982 Tape 2763 PK - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Municpal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act". SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, 'An Act To Amend The Pharmaceutical Association Act. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, "An Act To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act, 1978, No. 3", and "An Act To Amend The Retail Sales Tax 1978, Bill No. 2". MR. SPEAKER: Are there any other Notices of Motion? ANSWERS TO QUEST]ONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER : The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I table the answers to Question No. 111 appearing on the Order Paper of Thursday, June 3, asked by the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) in relation to the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation.

The answer to Question No. 100 asked by the same hon. member in relation to again the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation, the amount of legal work undertaken by that corporation. Now the answer to Question No. 69 in reference to the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation, the amount of work undertaken by that corporation in Labrador. The answer to Question No. 121 by the same hon. member for Bellevue, all of these are from the same member, Mr. Speaker, dealing with the amount of overtime and extra assistance in the Department of Mines and Energy for the fiscal 5799

November 26, 1982 'rape No. 2763 PK 2 MR. WINDSOR: years 1980-1981, 1981-1982, 1982-1983. And I have the answer to Question No. 126, again from the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) ,dealinq with Newfoundland Fibreply Limited, their Board of Directors and Shareholders and so forth. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: Motion 2, Bill No. 68, Mr. Speaker. On inot ion that the House resolve itself into a Committee or the Whole to consider certain resolutions relating to the guaranteeing of certain loans under The Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please We are discussing the resolution concerning Bill No. 68.

November 26,1982 Tape No. 2764 ah-1 MR.CHAIRMAN (Mr. Aylward): The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to prolong this debate,1 merely want to throw some figures on the table of the House to refute what hon.gentlemen like the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) ,who now has his own little index system over on his desk. He spends all his time now, his officials spend all their time tryinq to figure out how much money was spent in Liberal districts so that he can come into the house and attempt to embarrass members on this side of the house.

Most of the figures given out by the hon. gentleman yesterday had to do with maintenance and these costs would go on anyway. MR.DAWE: That is not true. MR.NEAPY It is true, most of it is maintenance. I challenge the hon. gentleman now, I challenge the hon. gentleman to stand in his place in this House and show the House where one foot of pavement has been laid in LaPoile district since 1975. I challenge the hon. gentleman to do it.

But the people in Grand Bay West, who have been looking for pavement for the last seven years can look up in the hon. gentleman's own district and they can see country lanes being paved and roads being paved to Summer cottages. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear I MR.NEARY: And they have a legitimate request to have the road to Grand Bay West paved in a community where people live and commute back and forth to work. Mr.Chairman, Lhe hon. gentleman should, instead of trying to embarrass members of the Opposition, he should hang his head in shame for the extravagance and the waste that he is responsible for.

And then he 5001

November 26,1982 Tape No. 2764 ah-2 MR.NEARY: was aided and abetted , of course, by the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr.Dinn), who got up and started to read from the list of the bill that we have in front of us, municipal loan authority, started to read off names of communities in Liberal districts, Mr.Chairrnan. Well let me set the record straight.

Last night we got out the old calculator and we added up the number of communities on that list that are in Tory districts, the amounts of money that are spent in these communities, the number of comrnuniies where water and sewer projects are going ahead in Liberal districts, and we added up the total amount spent in Liberal districts. Now here is the truth of the matter, Mr.Chairman, just listen to this Tory towns, a total of over seventy listed in that Act that we are passing now to approve loans and guarantees, seventy Tory towns- .5602

November 26, 1982 Tape No. 2765 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: —as a matter of foot there are seven:y-four, over seventy - as opposed to seven Liberal towns. Seventy-four versus seven. Now if that is not lopsided I do not know what is. MR. L. BARRY: You only have one tenth of the seats. MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon MR. BARRY: You only have one tenth of the seats. MR.NEARY: I see. Now the former Minister of Mines and Energy is using his own argument which is a different argument.

Yesterday members tried to embarrass members on this side by telling us about all the money that being spent in Liberal districts, in Liberal towns. The argument put forward now by the member is trying to justify the little political trickery and political games that were being played over there yesterday, now the hon. gentleman is trying to justify it. Anyway, on that list is seventy- four Tory towns for a total of over $32 million, seven Liberal towns for total of $2 million. MR. F. STAGG: That is not bad MR.T.LSUH: Just look at the percentage. MR.

NEARY: 'That is not bad,'some hon. gentleman said over there. 'That is not bad.' Well, it is not good either and it explodes the argument, the deceit that is being spread in this house by hon. ministers who have nothing better to do with their time then to try to play little political games with the member for Terra Nova (Mr. T. Lush) and the member for Bellevue (Callan). MR.T.LUSH: I am going out today to find the roads. The actual fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, md the record speaks for itself, these figures speak for themselves, hon. gentleman can take their 5803

November 26, 1982 Tape No. 2765 MJ - 2 MR. S. NEARY: calculator,. the same as we did last night and they can add up the totals and they will discover. I will just repeat just in case hon. gentlemen ever want to use that argument again, ever want to get up to play their political games and political trickery again in this House: On this list there are seventy-four Tory towns for a total of $32 million, seven Liberal towns for a total of $2 million. Now, Mr. Chairman, if that is not pork barrelling, if that is not playing politics with water and sewage projects, Mr. Chairman then I do not know what is. MR. L.

SIMMS: That is not true. MR. NEARY: What is not true? MR. SIMMS: These figures you are using are not accurate. That is last years prolects and a lot more of those towns were in liberal districts at that time. MR. NEARY: Oh Now the hon. gentleman now is going to use a different argument again. Now, we heard what the Minister of Transportation (Mr. R. Dawe) said yesterday and we heard what the Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. J. Dinn) said now does the former Speaker want to make his contribul:ion to this debate?

If he wishes to make a contribution then I would welcome him to get into the fray and never mind sniping at members from his seat in this House, which is against the rules and the hon. gentleman should know better as a former Speaker of the House. So, there is the truth of the matter, Mr. Chairman. MR. SIMMS: You are not representing your districts properly. LJ t Cl p I. JL)

November 26, 1982 Tape 2766 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: I beg your pardon? 1R. SIMflS: You are not representing your districts properily. MR. NEARY: Oh, I see. MR. CALLAN: You cannot use that argument for that one. That is the Premier's line. S MR. NEARY: If I had the time MR. ROBERTS Tell us about Placentia West. MR. WEARY: Yes, that is right. If I had the time I would give the hon. gentleman a good argument on that one too, but I do not have the time; we want to get on to some of the other bills and some other members wish to comment on this bill.

The fact of the matter is that when the estimates are being drawn up and when communities are being selected for water and sewer projects, the list should be tabled in this house. The list of highways projects should be tabled and the list of municipal projects should be tabled, water and sewerage and road paving and so on. And, Mr. Chairman, the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) , I am sure, approves of that, because I remember when the hon. gentLeman sat on this side of the house, the hon. gentleman argued -- MR. TOBIN: lou cannot go back that far. I MR.

NEARY: Well, the hon. gentleman may be back here sooner than he thinks, if the roof keeps falling in the way that it has in the last several weeks, the hon. gentleman may be over here sooner than he thinks. As a matter of fact, I am happy to say today, the news I heard this morning that an NDPCr in the Northwest Territories is going to cross over to the Liberal side of the House. 5805

November 26, 1982 Tape 2766 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: I have no doubt if things keep happening in this Province - SOME HON. MEMBERS. Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, could you ask the Government House Leader to reotrain himself while I am speaking? MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylwarcl): Order, please! MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I have no doubt at all that within a short time with the way things are happening in this Province, with the state of the economy, the financial mess that this administration have gotten the Province into, the skunkish way that the Premier is treating the people of Corner Brook and the people in Burin where a fish plant is going to close- he runs away from his responsibilities, shirks his responsibilities and runs away, which is an action in my opinion, lower than a skunk, taking all the information with him in his inside pocket and will not give the people any information, will not hold meetings to try to stave off these impending disasters in the fisheries and in forests and in the paper mills; he is prepared to wait for the axe to fall and then rush in at the last minute and try to turn himself into some kind of a folk hero.

MR. MARSHALL: That is not relevant. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, this is relevant. MR. MARSHALL: You said aU that before hundreds of times. MR. NEARY: Well, I am going to say it again. MR. ROBERTS: The people of Corner Brook are going to be saying it again and again too. MR. NEARY: The people of Corner Brook are not very happy about the shabby way they are being treated ;I.

November 26, 1982 Tape 2766 MC 3 MR. NEARY: by thtir members and by this administration, their monbers sitting on information and will not even meet with the Mayor or the 4 5807

November 26, 1982 Tape 2767 NM 1 MR. NEARY: town council or the union, or the Chamber of Commerce, to discuss these matters, to try to stave off an impending p disaster, instead of that he runs away with the information. I doubt if he has told his Cabinet. I presume he has told it the Cabinet, and told the members for the district what is going on. They should send out an SOS and get the Premier back in this Province at once. MR. ROBERTS: By satellite. MR. NEARY: Send it by satellite, an SOS by satellite if they can. Get him back in the Province where he should be at this time. MR.

STAGGi The member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) (inaudible) soon be coming over. MR. NEARY: Is that so? MR. ROBERTS: I think the Premier has been gone for a long time. MR. NEARY: Gone in more ways that one for a long time. MR. HODDER: They had to send him away or keep him in a strait jacket, one of the two. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I hope that when we present argument and debate from this side of the House in future that the miniuters will not get up with their little cardex ststems prepared by their officials.

They must have more to do in the departments than to watch te'ephone bills and put together little cardex systems. MR. DINN: You do not like to hear the truth. MR. NEARY: We like to hear the truth. The hon. gentleman was out when I just gave the House the truth. MR. DINN: Oh.

November 26, 1982 Tape 2767 NM - 2 MR._NEAP.Y. Seventy-four Tory towns listed, $32 million; seven Liberal town $2 million. MR. DINN: You do not count the ones that were Liberal before the last election. MR. NEARY: Well,if I counted the ones that were Liberal before,that would be 100 per cent. MR. DINN: Well I meant that was when the money was spent. MR. NEARY: I see. That is when the money was spent. Mr. Chairman, I know that Burin is a Liberal town and will be a Liberal town again. The hon. gentleman has shirked his responsibilities and his duties so badly in the last few days, he has shown his true colour.

He has shown that he puts his party before the people of Burin. He puts his party and the Premier and his - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh'. MR. NEARY: No doubt he carries a picture of the Premier iround in his wallet all the time so he can take it out every day and kiss it, Mr. Chairman. He has the coloured picture, the one like we have down at the airport. MR. ROBERTS: What really is bad is that we are paying for it. MR. NEARY: And we are paying for these I 4 pictures - MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: member his time has elapsed. MR. YOUNG: Order, please'. - these doctored pictures.

I have to inform the hon. Your time has elapsed.

November 26, 1982 Tape 2767 NM - 3 MR. NEARY. Well,I will have another round after my colleagues, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, my colleague has exposed the shoddiness of the government 5010

November 26, 1982 Tape 2768 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: on this issue as on so many others. And they can laugh, you know, if they want to snicker and laugh, let them, that is up to them, but all I need to say is that the facts speak for themselves. The Minister of Municipal Aff irs (Mrs. Newhook) I think is a prisoner of events. She is not master of this situation. I do not think for a moment - MR. YOUNG: Garbage! Garbage! MR. ROBERTS: - if the gentleman for Public Works (Mr. Young) would become private instead of public the debate could go on a little more effectively, Mr. Chairman.

What I am saying is I do not believe for one minute that the Minister of Municipal Affairs is guilty of perpetrating this type of rank and arrant discrimination. The most that we could aay of her is that she has not had the courage to do what she ought to do which is to speak out against it publicly. I have no doubt she has spoken out. MR. DINN: It is a shame. MR. ROBERTS: Yes, it is a shame. I say it certainly is a shame.

The minister came into public life with high ideals and with a marvellos record of public service behind her, and came in anxious and fully equipped to make a contribution to the affairs of this Province. It is a matter of regret, which I have heard expressed by admirers and former admirers, more of the latter than of the former, admirers and former admirers of hers throughout the Province that she has become party I to this rank - it is not gerrymandering; gerrymandering speaks only of electoral districts, we will see that in a year 4 or so when the government brings in the new Electoral Act - MR.

MARSHALL: They show this discontent very easily. MR._ROBERTS: Yes, they certainly did. They certainly did, Mr. Chairman. 5811

November 26, 1982 Tape 2768 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: Let me deal with that. You know,wc can talk about lots of people who won elections and then felt that that wiped away everything. I heard on the radio this morning Mr. Clark , a gentleman who knows a little bit about winning and losing elections, referring to Mr. Richard Nixon, he was using it in a sense uncomplimentary to Donald MacDonald. But all I need to do, since it has been put in my mind by Mr. Clark , the gentleman whom those opposite wish to see as Prime Minister of Canada , that, Mr.

Nixon won a very large election in 1972,just as large as this hon. crowd opposite won in 1982 here in Newfoundland. Mr. Chairman, if they want to be - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. ROBERTS: - bipartisan I could point out that Mr. Trudeau won a ]arge victory in 1980 in this country. There is some considerable evidence that if an election were held today he would not win any kind of victory. 4 5012

November 26,1982 Tape Nc. 2769 ah-1 MR.ROBERTS: We are not going to find out, I suspect go will have to wail, a year or two to see what will happen. But if hon. qentlemen opposite really believe that winning an election ecuscs all the arrogance and excuses all the chicanery and all the improper conduct that they wish to indulge in1 then they are ontitled to that belief. All I will say on this side is that just reinforces my desire to have the conduct of the government exposed to the people through the means of television and radio in the House and that of course is why they will not allow it.

Now let me come back, Mr.Chairman,to the point I am making. I said what I have to say about the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs Newhook). She is a fine member, a fine person; I just find it a matter of regret that she has allowed herself to be used in this way to be part of this rampant - MR.STAGG: Be nice. MR.ROBERTS: I am being very nice. I say to whoever opposite said to be nice that I am speaking in the kindest possible terms. I am not saying what many people throughout the Province are saying about the Municipal Affairs Department. Now I just want to speak about three situations in my own constituency.

The minister is thoroughly familiar with these. The has had a number • of letters from me over the years, she and her predecessors. If hhr , r , ont - loman from St. John's West (Mr. Barrett) could control himself- I know he is communing with his minister and I have no doubt they are communing on important thoughts which would be the first important thought his minister has run across in some time. I wondr if the gentleman 5813

November 26,1982 Tape No. 2769 ah-2 MR.ROBERTS: from St. John's West (Mr.Barrett) could commune a little more quietly with his minister. I am all for him communinq whatever passes between the two of them I am all for it. We are paying handsomely for it. And I do not mean the salaries we are paying, I mean the 0 price we are paying in this Province for the incompetent administration of the financial affairs of this Province.

I can only say that the hon. gentleman from St.John's West is close to the front benches and that is a considerable improvement, Sir, over what we normally see in the front benches in this Province. The Premier would be well advisedin my opinion,when he comes back from Europe , when next he visits us, immediately to replace the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) and make him the Parliamentary Seretary and let the member for St. John's West becoirie the Minister of Finance. That sort of change would be a considerable improvement.

The only people who would suffer in that result might be the medical profession if in fact the Minister of Finance returned to his lirat love. 5814

November 26, 1982 Tape 2770 EC - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Now, Mr. Chairman, I heard a remark the other day about my friend from Stephenville (Mr. Stagg). I am told he has moved to St. John's and one of his colleagues in our mutual profession, who has a high opinion of my hon. and learned friend, said, 1. 'Have you heard that' - naming him - 'has moved to St. John's?' I said, 'Yes, he has a big job in the government now, he has moved to St.

John's from Stephenville. 'Yes,' said the man, 'from Stephenville.' And I said, 'What does that mean?' And he said, 'Well, it means a substantial improvement in the intellectual ability of each community.' Now, Mr. Speaker, let me come back to these three particular situations - MR. STAGG: That is not what it says in my book. MR. ROBERTS: It took awhile for hon. gentlemen opposite, some of whom are not too bright so it takes awhile, but they do get it. My friend from Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) and my friend from Grand Bank (Mr.

Matthews) , who has made a mark on the House in his time here, I am glad they saw it and I am grateful to them. MR. MATTHEWS: I do not expect you to know where Grand Bank is. You hardly knew where your own district is. MR. ROBERTS: Well, that is true. That is why I have been elected six times down there, which is five times more than the hon. gentleman has been or will be elected. MR. MATTHEWS: If they knew you they would not elect you. MR. ROBERTS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, we will leave that to the Strait of Belle Isle citizens, Any time the government wish to call an election, I am quite happy to put my fate in the hands of the district of the Strait of Belle Isle and the electors therein, 5815

November 26, 1982 Tape 2770 EC - 2 MR. ROBERTS: They have sent me here six times. They may or may not do it a seventh time, that remains to be seen. I do say the gentleman from Grand Bank (Mr. Matthews) is in his first and last term in the House and he knows that, his electors know that,and so do we all. Now, W.

Speaker, I do want to say a word about three areas in my district, two of them communities and one an area embracing a number of communities, where the need for water - and I hope the minister could divert herself from whatever she is doing and at least listen to what I am saying; whether she responds to it or not is for her to say. The community of Conch and the community of Raleigh have both been seeking assistance from the government for a number of years now, their councils, to enable them to install water systems - not water and sewer systems, but water systems.

Conche has beLween 500 and 600 people, Raleigh has rather more, 600 to 700 people. Both are prosperous fishing communities, both have a large number of fine, new homes, new schools; they are in every way viable and prosperous communities and communities that provide fine places for people to live and raise their children. Neither of them has a publicly funded water supply. Delegations have come to see the minister on many occasions, letters have come in from the communities; I have written many times, I have spoken to the minister and to her predecessors, nnd b

November 26, 1982 Tape No. 2771 MJ - 1 MR. E. ROBERTS: and each year, for whatever reason, no money is allocated. Now, I am not going to dilate upon the reason, I have my own views and so do the people in Raleigh and in Conche,but I simply want to make a very brief but very heartfelt plea for those people. In Raleigh, the only publicly available water system is now, as it has been for some time,seriously polluted. In the interest of delicacy { will not describe the pollution, but the minister'a officials are well aware of it; I believe she too is.

So I simply say to her that if she has humanity and any concern for these people I would hope we would see reflected next year in the amounts made available. Given the way government have allocated money elsewhere in the province,there is no justification for a failure by the government to provide some money to these communities. The amounts involved are not terribly large when viewed against the other amounts that are being spent. I do not for a moment resent the amounts of money that are being spent anywhere else.

I know of nothing in the Municipal Affairs field that is more important than providing people with an adequate supply of decent drinking water. It is not very much to ask in this day and age and I know there are many demands on the treasury but there is a larga chunk of money cut out for Municipal Affairs both in direct expenditures and by means of the loans which are guaranteed by the government under the authority of the legislation we now have before us.

And I would say to the minister, and I know she would agree - she has (lot a heart and she has got a head - there is nothing that is of greater importance to people than having an adequate supply of pure and decent drinking water. Once we have it it becomes irrelevant and unimportant, we just take it for granted. I often ask my constituents,- they have seen, over the years that I have known them, a Lot of progress - 5817

NOvember 26, 1982 Tape No. 2771 MJ - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: and I ask them what is the last thinq they would do without, the paved roads in the places where we have them or the electricity or what have you' And inevitably the answer I get - and I can say to any hon. gentleman who represents a rural area to ask his constituents the same question, what would they last give up, what would they least want to give up of the so-called modern progress - and the nswer is inevitably water, piped water, running water, a public water system. MR._CHAIRMAN d): Order, please! I have to inform the hon. member, his time haE elapsed.

MR. ROBERTS: May I have a minute or two more by leave? MR._CHAIRMAN: By leave? A minute or two by leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. MR. CHAIRMAN: By leave, the hon. the nsrnber for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. N. WINDSOR: Let us hear every word. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, my friend from Mount Pearl (Mr. N. Windsor) has asked me to say something . I could only say that I can lead a horse to water -T can only lead half a horse, in the case of the minister, to water-but I cannot make him drink. Now, I am not talking to him, I am talking to an important minister, the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs.

H. Newhook). The situation - MR. S. NEARY: Development. MR. ROBERTS: Yes. The Minister of Development's (Mr. N. Windsor) record speaks for itself, lie has become Minister of Development and we have had disaster after economic disaster and he fiddles and now Bowaters is next. You know, where does the line end? Where does the litany S

November 26, 1982 Tapo No. 2771 MJ - 3 MR. E. ROBERTS: of disa5ters end? The first place it could end is taking the minister out of the portfolio and putting in somebody with some energy, some ideas, some initiative and some couraqe. V 4 5819

November 26, 1982 Tape 2772 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, let me come back to the situation of the people of Conche and of Raleigh. The minister is well aware, I believe, of the situation. I would ask her if she can find time in the next few months, with or without me - I would be delighted to accompany her if she wishes, but if she prefers not to that is fine. I am not offended 1 nor will anybody else be - to go to those communities and to meet with the people there. Neither of them has an adequate supply of drinking water. They find it very difficult to understand.

They see the television, they read the newspapers, they hear, they travel, they know what is going on, they are unable to understand why they have no assistance from the governmenc when compared to some of the other projects that are being funded by this government throughout the Province. Now they have formed their own conclusion as to why that is so. And of course that was reflected on April 6th. too, reflected in increased votes against this government in those communities. But that is not the point I want to stress. The point I want to stress is that their needs are there.

These are men and women and children. They are NewfoundlanderS and they have the same rights and the same desires and the same needs as any other part of this Province. So I want to say to the minister simply as eloquently as I can, as eloquent as that may be or as uneloquent as that may be, help them. Do something for them. Help them. It is not a lot of money. And I want to add to that very briefly the situation with the unincorporated water - what is it called? - the water service districts Only $500,000 was allocated this last year and it is the most valuable $500,000. It should be doubled or tripled.

A year or two or three, at that level of expenditure - 52D

November 26, 1982 Tape 2772 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS. $1 million or $1.5 million- would probably meet the needs. These are the water service districts in the small unincorporated communities * where the government provides I believe it is $1500 per home, is it? MRS. NEWHOOK: Yes. MR. ROBERTS: I thank the minister for confirming it. I think the people pay $100 and then the government puts up $1500 and that is lumped together and it is used to provide a little water system.

Now, you know, small little communities, the only way they will ever get water is through that,and I am sure the minister has asked for more money for it over the years. $500,000 is not very much. Maybe we could do each year - what do we do? - about 5 out of the 50 projects, that kind of number? MRS. NEWHOOK: We do more than that. MR. ROBERTS: There are more than 50. I am Sorry. MRS. NEWHOOK: No, no, we do more than 5. MR. ROBERTS: Okay. But I was more concerned with the proportion. I meanif there are 100 we do 10.

We do a very small proportion of those which are eligible under the rules to receive help because there is not enough money. The minister will agree with that. $ MRS. NEWHOOK: We do about 50 per cent of the ones that are eliqible. 5821

November 26, 1982 Tape 2773 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: About 50 per cent of the ones who are eligible. Well,how come there has only been one in my constituency ? That means all of the others are being done, That perhaps makes it worse. MRS. NEWHOOK: You know.we look at all of the requests from all over. MR. ROBERTS: Yes. Well, you know, I am concerned about what is going to come next year, Mr.

Chairman, What is passed is past, but there are a number of communities in my district that look for help to it: Green IslanO Brook, Green Island Cove— Green Island Cove got some help this year, Green Island Brook needs it - Croquet, Ship Cove, I could name others, but you know they are not big places. But, you know, if you need water it does not matter if you live in a city of a million or in a community of one hundred, your need for water is exactly the same.

So I would simply say to the minister- you know, she is human, she knows how people live, women, mothers, ladies who have small children and cannot wash the clothes, you know, that kind of problem. And that is what we are talking of. It is a small amount of money. Look, Mount Scio House, if we closed it would pay all of these places. You know, it is relatively insignificant - but for all that is sacred will she try to get more money this year for these people, not just in my district, but every district where the need is there. Surely to heavens in Newfoundland and Laboador in 1982 we can provide people, Mr.

Chairman, with a drop of water fit to drink. That is not too much to ask in a Province that does the kinds of things we do. 5822

I November 26, 1982 Tape 2773 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: I thank the Committee, Sir, for their forebearance I appreciate it. I hope the minister will-whether she wants to respond now is up, of course, to her, 4 I will gladly listen to her if she wants to- but I would hope that she will respond to these requests. These are people who have real needs, very great needs, and only the government can help them. And the thought that the government is denying them for partisan reasons is despicable and I do not believe that of the minister. But I will say that the events will tell us what happens.

As always, actions speak louder than words, Sir. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to have a few words on this particular bill because it ties in with an issue that I have been onto now for several days. 5823

November 26, 1982 Tape 2775 NM - 1 MR. CALLAN: Of course,fortunately for the good people of this Province, people now are beginning to see throuqh the Premier's tactics and evasiveness. The Premier is very evasive As tle Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) pointed out this morning, the Premier is a master at evading issues, evading crises and problems, taking all the glory but when something comes along, as the Leader of the Opposition was suggestinq this morning, the Premier decides, "Well,I will have to run away from that and hope that by the time I get back that people will have gotten accustomed to it, and they will not be blaming me. Because I was not here when the announcement was made or when it happened." The same thing happened, Mr. Chairman, last year leading up to February 15th., and following February 15th., when the Ocean Ranger went down.

There 'as no sign of the Premier on television or anywhere else in any way sympathizing with the families who lost their friends and husbands and Sons and so on on the Ocean Rag the Premier was noted totally and completely by his absence in the media. He put somebody else up front, namely the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall) . Did the Premier put the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) up front when he announced his biq pre-tendering last Winter, which as the Minister of Transportation described was just before the budget, when actually it was just before the election call?

Did the Premier put the Minister of Transportation up front and let him announce this pre-tendering? Oh,no The 'romior loves to take the glory and so there was no sign of the Minister of Transportation when the Premier was on one of his routine news conferences. 5824

November 26, 1982 Tape 2775 NM - 2 MR. CALLAN: So anyway, Mr. Chairman, let me ask the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) is it going to be necessary for me to cross the House and shake it out of the minister,the list of roads programme? MR. DAWE: If the hon. member for Bellevue would like to try it he is certainly welcome to. MR. CALLAN: Is it going to be necessary for me to cross the House and shake it out of him? Is he too stubborn? What is the minister covering up, Mr. Chairman? That is the question. Why? AN HON. MEMBER: Liberal reform. MR. DAWE: This is a new experience.

I have not been threatened in the House before. MR. CALLAN: Why, Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman, did the Minister or did not the Minister of Transportation deliberately mislead this House? Let me ask that question. Let me read it once more. MR. SIMMS: That is unparliamentary. MR. CALLAN: I know what is unparliamentary. MR. SIMMS: You cannot say indirectly what you cannot say directly. MR. CALLAN: I got kicked out of this House a few months ago for calling the Premier a liar. MR. DAWE: You deserved it. 4 MR. CALLAN: Naturally. I accept parliamentary procedure. MR. SIMMS: You would not call him a skunk, would you? MR.

CALLAN: But anyway, the people out in the boondocks, Mr. Chairman, the people out in the district of Bellevue, when they talked to me after, 5825

November 26, 1982 Tape 2776 EC - 1 MR. CALLAN: they said, 'It is awfully strange democracy.' I said, 'What?' They said, 'It is awfully strange democracy. The Premier lied, told lies, and you reminded him of his lies and you were the one who had to leave the House. Obviously it should have been the Premier.' This is what people said to me. DR. COLLINS: You corrected them? MR. CALLAN: And, of course, I explained to them about parliamentary procedure. DR. COLLINS: It was your perception that he lied. He did not actually lie, it was just your perception that he lied. You explained that to them. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Chairman, I am glad that the good doctor that we have in the House - because we have a very sick economy - I am very glad that he spoke. The doctor says that it was my perception that he lied. It was my perception that he lied. Mr. Chairman, 'Hospital closing and the Premier' - this letter to the editor, Mr. Chairman, signed by Raymond N. Gosse, Whitbourne, Mayor at the time, was put in the newspaper. It is a letter to the Premier, which he published.

He says this: "Dear Sir: It is with both disbelief and disgust that I find it necessary to address this letter to you publicly, disbelief because it was but a few short months ago that you sat in council chambers at Whitbourne and with your assurances buried our fears that our hospital would ever close 'as ionq as you were Premier of this Province'" -quotation marks, a direct quote by the Premier, quoted by the Mayor of the Town of Whitbourne. "' I, " says the Premier, ' 'am not in the business of closing hospitals, I am in the business of upgrading them.'"' I, says Mr. Gosso, "with my own 5826

November 26, 1982 Tape 2776 EC - 2 MR. CALLAN: ears, hoard you when you met with the hospital committee and repeated your promises of not only keeping this facility open but also of upgrading the outpatient clinic as well.' So he expresses disbelief and disgust - "and disgust," he says, "because obviously, Sir," talking to the Premier, "these were the hollow words of a common politician hustling votes. We thought you to be above this. We were proud that at long last we have a leader, someone who would tell it as it is, someone 4 5827

November 26, 1982 Tape 2777 P1< - 1 'who would defend our right to be first-class Canadians " - they thought - "l3ut,you Sir" - to the Premiez- "have done what a dozen Trudeaus were unable to do, you have destroyed the faith your fellow NewfoundlanderS had placed in you. MR. YOUNG: Why are you readinu )ear Abby? MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! MR. CALLAN: It would have been honourable MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I have to inform the hon. member his time has elapsed. MR. STAGG: Table the letter. Your time has elapsed. MR. CALLAN: That is tabled,my friend,in every home in Bellevue. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to comment briefly with regard to water and sewerage in this Province. I suppose I am probably one of the most fortunate members in the house that I have $13 million - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. IIISCOCK: - I have approximately $13 million being spent on water and sewerage projects in my district, thanks kindly to the federal government under Coastal Labrador DREE agreement.

Wit1- regard to that I would like to comment upon what is happening with regards to the installation of some of those water and sewerage projects. For example, Cartwriqht is now going to be going into itr third phase of water and sewerage, and when the Bottom, or what is known as the Bottom in Cartwright, the people wrote JL

November 26, 1982 Tape 2777 PR - 2 MR. HISCOCK: me and asked me if they were going to be getting water and sewerage, I automatically assumed that it would be part of the five phases going into Cartwright. So I wrote the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) and said,"Cartwright is imposing a property tax on all citizens of Cartwriqht and the Bottom of Cartwright wants to know if they will be getting water and sewerage because they are down on back of the clinic?

And the answer that came back from the Minister of Municipal Affairs said,"No,we are going to impose property tax on them but they are not going to get any water and sewerage services. Also now that the hookups are going through Cartwriqht,some of the houses are quite far away from the main line or the main road and the people are responsible for hookinq up these themselves. So what you are going to see is a reoccurence of Makkovik, where a house is probably worth $10,000 or $5,000 and the hookup cost will probably end up in the range of $5,000 or $10,000.

Yet the Minister of Municpal Affairs is not dealing with that and having it as part of the contract. They are saying, "No individual houses are responsible for their own hookup. With regard to another

part in the community, water and sewerage is being installed in Forteau. And with regard to being installed in Forteau, what is happening there? Again a property tax is being imposed on the people of English Point. They wrote the Minister of Municipal Affairs and asked , now that they have to pay pronerty tax would they be getting the benefits that they have to pay for, like water and sewerage? And the answer, of course, is no. 5829

November 26, 1982 Tape 2777 PK - 3 MR. HISCOCK: So here is the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. Newhook) allowing municipalities to have guaranteed loans and imposing property tax, and yet they have to go around and not service the full community. The same thing is also true for LAnse-au-Loup and all of the other communities all along. 1 5830

November 26, 1982 Tape No. 2778 MJ - 1 MR. E. HISCOCK: I want to bring to the attention of the minister that $13.5 million is being spent, 90 per cent of that is federal government money, yet the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. II. Newhook) is saying to k these communities that are qettinq these benefits from the federal government, you have to impose property ta:, and so these communities have agreed. But the most pressing problem as the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. E.

Roberts) pointed about the pollution of the water in Conche, the most pressing need in my district, and the minister knows this also, is in record to Black Tickle. Black Tickle only has surface water, they do not even have wells because of the cjeology of the area, and the government has probably spent at least $250,000 going in and drillinq artesian wells only to find out that all of them have come up dry. The residents have said, You are not going to find any water.

I have told them what has happened in the past but no, they went in again this year and spent probably $50,000 drilling more wells and finding that again they are dry. And what happens now in Black Tickle, they only have surface water, small shallow wells, they have to boil their water before using it in any way, th"re is a higher proportion of gastroenteritis, stomach complaints in that community, next only to Davis Trilot on the Coast. Black Tickle is the one that most needs immediate attention with regard to the water. We are not asking, they are not asking for the sewage facilities.

They are asking for something basic and that is water and I cannot help but think about the vast territory of Labrador and all its hydro potential and all the water that is running into the seas and the Lower Churchill and the Upper Churchill and the other one and all water and yet here you have l: places like Davis Inlet and Black Tickle that do not even have fit water. 5831

November 26, 1982 Tape No. 2778 NJ - 2 MR. E. HISCOCK: So, Mr. Chairman, I hope that the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs. II. Newhook) will address the serious health problem with regard to Black Tickle as well as other areas in this Province and 5032

November 26,1982 Tape No. 2779 ah-1 MR.I1ISCOCK: put more money into this area because, Mr.Chairman, if we do not look after the basic things like water thcn what type of society are we? When we find out, Mr.Chairman, that we are spendinq money, $2.5 million in Labrador on air subsidies for helicopters instead of combining and using Labrador Airways, $2.5 million, Mr.Chairrnan, some of that $2.5 million could be used for water and sewerage.

And also I want to point out with regard to certain loans under the Local Authority Guarantee Act that there are many, many places in this Province, as members said before me and will continue to say, and a lot of these communities are asking how do the/' get. this cost sharing?

You want to get sixty/forty with regard to roads in the municipalities, they want sixty/forty on other municipal things,so they apply to the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs Newhook), They apply, the councils put theirmoney up front, the local residents say,okay, if it means property tax then we will invoke property tax if that is what it means to get water and sewerage and to get half decent roads within the local districts. They go to the Minister of Municipal Affairs with their money and say, Would you please cost share these projects? And what is the answer? No. No,is the answer.

I believe last year probably about 50 per cent of the communities that asked and had their money up front, and the communities were willing to have property tax because they wanted the facilities, but the government said no, and the same thing also with regard to loans to the municipalities. I am amazed really sometimes at the perception of our people in that if they are getting water and sewerage when an election comes the government of the day reminds 5033

November 26,1982 Tape No. 2779 ah-2 MR.HISCOCK: them that they have water and sewerage and say since I have been elected you have water and sewerage and all this. And the people sort of say, yes, you as the member or the minister or the Premier at that time, we got water and sewerage under your term t of office and therefore they try to return the person as a favour for getting the water and sewerage. But do the voters realize that all the government is doing is guaranteeing the loans to the municipalities, only guaranteeinq the loans?

The people themselves are paying them through the property tax and whether we had a government or not it would be the same thinq, that they could form a small - wellit is a local government - but because of the legislation they have to go through the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs Newhook). So, Mr. Chairman, here are the people in the Province thanking the government for water and sewerage when in actual fact all they do is guarantee the loans. I- 5834

November 26, 1982 Tape 2780 NM - 1 MR. HISCOCK: And when they come forward with more money on a 60/40 cost sharing, the answer, Mr. Chairman, is the government says no to 50 per cent of the municipalities and councils in this Province. 4 They also say to the councils too, last year in the Municipalities Act, the big act that was proclaimed as being the cornerstone for the 'BOg for this government, and that would not have to be changed, as soon as it was brought in, within six months they brought in major changes and now, Mr.

Chairman, one of the cornerstones is that,"If you can collect more taxes,municipalities, the more taxes you collect and cut down on costs for the provincial government, we will have an incentive basis. And the incentive will be the more taxes you collect, we will match that on a proportional basis." MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please'. The hon. gentleman's time has elapsed. MR. HISCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for St. Mary's- The Capes. MR. HEARN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: hear, hear MR. IIEARN: Mr.

Chairman, I am sure 4 that hon. members on both sides of the House realize that at any one timeespecially in recent years, we get a tremendous amount of requests for funding for municipal projects, and that at any one time only a certain amount of money can be allocated for such projects. In listening to the hon. gentlemen opposite,they seem to wonder why there seems to be a discrepancy between the amount of money spent in what they 5835

November 26, 1982 Tape 2780 NM - 2 MR. HEARN: call Tory districts and what is being spent in their districts. Perhaps the reason should be clarified, there is an old saying, "It is a long road with no turn, and if we go back a few years and we look at the so-called Tory districts, very little money was spent. The reason why we are spending so much money now is because those districts have been neglected for so long. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

HEARN: Not only were the districts that are now recognized as Tory districts neglected, not only were they neglected when they were held by Tories, the districts that were held by Liberals were neglected, Mr. Chairman. MR. YOUNG: Harbour Grace is one of them. MR. HEARN: Well Harbour Grace, I can give you two that I am very familiar with, the district of Ferryland and the district of St. Mary's-The Capes, where until 1972 practically nothing, not a jot or an iota, as a former Premier used to say, was spent in relation to road pavine, or water and sewer projects. MR. ANDREWS: They had lousy members, flunky members.

MR. HEARN: Since 1972, 126 miles of pavement has been laid in St. Mary's-The Capes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, heart MR. HEARN: I could add the number of miles that will be added the next three or four years, I will not, I will leave that up to the hon. Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) However, before 1972 not an inch of pavement in the twenty years the Liberals were in power MR. WINDSOR: Shame Twenty years.

November 26, 1982 Tape 2780 NM - 3 MR. I-lEARN: Even though for twenty years that district was represented, almost all of the time, by a Liberal member. MR. WINDSOR: Shame'. MR. TEAPN No water and sewer more 5837

November 26, 1982 Tape 2781 EC - 1 MR. HEARN: whatsoever. The same thing in the district of Ferryland, held by the hon. the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power), the same thing occurred there. Not a cent was spent even though for practically all that time the district was held by Liberals. But, of course, there is a reason for it. If you remember, the Liberal leader back in those days did not like the people of Ferryland district or did not like the people of St. Mary's - The Capes, simply because they did not support him in his fight for Copfedcration.

He said, 'I am sitting on the chest,' famous words that turned out to be famous last words because he is no longer on the chest and the money is now flowing into those districts, thanks to our qovernment. So when the boys across want to complain about us spending money in certain areas, we are only catching up, evening out. Mr.Chairman, it is about time that the members across realize that this government is trying to bring Newfoundland up on par to other provinces.

We are trying to provide the various outports with water and sewer, with pavement, we are trying to make sure that all of them are treated equally, and in order to bring them up to par we have to put a little extra in the districts that wern not held by tben. Now we are spending money in the Liberal districts and we have a good reason for it, perhaps not so much to satisfy the political whims of the people who hold the districts right now, but we want to make sure, Mr.

Chairman, that after the next election we do not have so much to do ourselves when our own members sit in the seats that are now held by these people. 'Ihank you very much. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear

November 26, 1982 Tape 2781 WC - 2 S MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) Bellovue. Mr. Chairman. The hon. the member for MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, when my ten minutes ran out earlier, I was quoting the Mayor, a former Mayor now, actually, but he was the Mayor at the time, of the Town of Whitbourne, the first inland town to be settled in all of Newfoundland, a town where the Premier was conceived and, of course, born at the Markland Hospital about two or three miles away from Whitbourne. Anyway, I was quoting. I want to read this into the record, Mr.

Chairman, because students in ten or fifteen years time will not remember that this was a letter to the editor or that the Premier was sent a letter of this kind. But students of political science or whatever will be able to read what the former Mayor said. He was disgusted and he was filled with disbelief, lie said, "It would have been more honourablo, Mr. Premier, to explain to us" - the council - then the difficulties your qovernmcnt may have had in keeping this hospital open. Why did you not lay it on the line?

Why did you not tell us that we do not have the money and here is why' and SO on and so on -- but no, you pulled a colossal hi nil. At least 5839

November 26, 1982 Tape No. 2782 MJ - 1 MR. W. CALLAN: he said, we would have had an opportunity to explain to you in detail why we need that facility improved upon not downgraded. We would have been able to explain some of the difficulties we anticipate in travelling to medical centers in St. John's, the increased traffic of the Suminertimes and the unpredictable and treacherous driving in the Winter. We would have shown you proof that our needs were legitimate and our concerns real,but since you have relieved us of our fears we saw no need to dwell on grizzly facts and figures. We believed you.

You lulled us into a false sense of security, says the Mayor of Whitbourne to the Premier. 'However, you denied yourself of the opportuntity of seeing and hearing our concerns, something your experts with all their statistics and human trends are unable to give you. Then you, Sir, must bear the responsibilities of this decision and the consequences that will surely come of it. Not only have you done that which you said you would not do,but you have not explained to us exactly what you have planned for us. ' This new clinic - I was asking the Minister of Health (Mr. W.

House) behind the curtain yesterday afternoon - when the Premier was out in Norman's Cove during the campaign, the big rally that had about fifteen buses there from all over the Province - AN lION. MEMBER: Why was h not (Ileatod? MR. Fl. YOUNG: T say the miori ty wonted to see him. MR. CALLAN: The Premier lost his majority in his district this time around as well, I have reminded the Premier of that already. 5840

November 26, 1982 Tape No. 2782 MJ - 2 MR. Ii. YOUNG: Did you lose any votes? MR. W. CALLAN: A point of order, Mr. Chairman. I would like for the Minister of Public Works (Mr. H. Young) to listen because I know I am hitting a sore point but if he has the common decency to listen I would appreciate it. But anyway, Mr.

Chairman, what I was saying is that the Premier when he was on stage with the P.C. candidate, Bas Jamieson, that night - and the press were ther it was covered live, I can verify this, anybody can - he Lurned to Baa and he said, ' You qot most of that money in your pockct now. ' What a political gag for a premier of a province to pull on 400 or 500 people.

What an insult to their intelligence. lie turned to him and laughed and said, 'You got that money in your pocket now, have you not?' Anyway, Mr.Chairman, lot me get back to the letter - the money of course was supposed to be for the new clinic that was supposed to have been built, that Bas supposed to have had in his pocket - 'however, ' he says, ' you denied yourself the opportunity of seeing and hearing our concerns. Not only have you done that which you said you would not have done but you have not explained to us exactly what you have planned for us.' I will just skip tTho ne::t. paragraph. 'Mr.

Peckford, I liken you to a man who dabbLes in abstract act; he never knows S what he has created 56/41

November 26,1982 Tape No. 2783 ah-1 until he has finished-if ever. Lastly,Sir, this serious breach of trust goes further than Markiand hospital and our desire to retain that which has served us well during the past forty-six years. It may serve to show the people of Newfoundland that perhaps it would be better for all concerned if control of our offshore resources were placed in the hands of the federal government perhaps you are not the man we thought you to be. Perhaps this offshore resource is more than you can handle.

We, Sir-and I know this for a fact, this man was out West- "We , Sir, are the people who gave you your strong mandate, we are the people who chose to suffer rather than give in to the federal government, we are the people who must leave this Province looking for our daily bread. I beseech you, Sir, not to undermine us. Show us that our trust in you is well founded. Prove that you can be faithful over big things by being faithful over this issue and reverse your decision.' And, of course, everybody knows the decision. Sicjned by Raymond R. Gosse, former Mayor of Whitbourne. Now, that Mr.

Chairman, is a good response to the remark that was made by the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) , the good doctor, when he said that it was only in my mind that it looked like the Premier was not being truthful with the people out in Whitbourne and area. Jleic is another one, Nr.Chairman. MR.MARSHALL: It was in the Daily News,was it? MR.CALLAN: It was the weekend edition of the Evening Telegram, the Tory one,i{ you want me to tell you which one since somebody mentioned the DailyNews.

Saturday June 12th, 1982, "Dawe says Premier betrayed Committee." Not Dawe the Minister of Transportation,who for some unknown reason 5842

e November 26,1982 Tape No. 2783 ah-2 MR.CALLAN: will not table his list of roads programme. This is Stan Dawe. Mr.Chairman, does anybody know who Stan Dawe is? Stan Dawe, Mr.Chairman, is the same man, the man who was Chairman of the Markiand hospital improvement Committee, he was the same man who chaired that big Tory meeting in my backyard in Norman's Cove, the one that made the National and the Journal, the same man. here is a Tory saying 5843 4

November 26, 1982 Tape 2784 PK - 1 MR. CALLAN: that the Premier betrayed the Committee." Dawe said, the Markland Hospital Improvement Committee was appointed in 1979 at a public meeting to demand a new out-patient clinic. Dawe said the committee had two personal commitments from Pockford. He said, 'On April 6', - Remember that day? I do - 'On April 6, 1981" - that was four days before voting day in the Bellevue bi- election - 'The Premier said that his government was opposed to downgrading hospitals, and Msrklarid Ihspital will not he closed.

And on March 30, 1981 the Premair nit with the Conmittee and said, 'The out- patient clinic will be built within two years.' That was March 30, 1981 it was going to he built within two years. These are just to exanples, Mr. Chairman. There are others. MR. MARSHALL: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR._CHAIRMAN(McNicholas): The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman was speaking out of order the whole time because he was speaking - MR. CALLAN: It is strange you did not stand. MR. MARSHALL: - really of letters in the paper.

The former speaker - not the former, former speaker, but the former speaker was indicating with his vast knowledge of the rules that it is out of order to be reading from letters. And he quoted Beauchesne, and the reason for it is that it is out of order because you are supposed to express your own opinions and express your own intellect - MR. TOBIN: He has no opinions. MR. MARSHALL: That is what I said to the former, former speaker, we will have to let the poor fellow go on because he obviously has no opinions of his own to express. MR. CALLAN: Do not be ignorant. MR.SIMMS: Speak for yourself, boy!

Speak for yourself. 5844

November 26, 1982 Tape 2784 PK - 2 MR. CALLAN: I wonder how many people - MR. OTTENHEIMER: listen, flow! MR. SIMMS: Name him, Mr. Chairman. Name him. MR. MARSHALL: I would like to talk to this motion, Mr. Chairman. SOME lION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: During the course of this debate the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) made reference again to the matters which came up before the house this morning in Question Period with respect to the Premier.

Now let me say first of all that the hon. gentleman feels that the Lvader of this government going over to Europe and attempting to protect the seal fishery of this Province that there is something wrong with it, you know, he calls him all sorts of pejorative names, 'skunk', and gallicanting around' and what have you. And the hon. gentleman used this House for the purpose of attempting to incite people, as he usually does, with respect to things, completely careless of the concerns of people who are gainfully employed in this Province, to spew forth his own political advantage. S S 58/45

November 26, 1982 Tape 2785 NM - 1 MO M7flOU,sr 1 So at this time,you know.thorc are one or Iwo things I want to dispel, because you do not make statements like he makes in this House about critical matters that are before this House in a careless fashion the way that the hon. gentleman did. And he,and the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts),I think,on one occasion, were heaping scorn on the fact that, you know, the Premier is in touch with the situation. Now I can ay, Mr.

Speaker, unlike the hon. gentleman there opposite, the Premier, as all members of this administration, very much cares about the affairs of this Province. And I can tell this Committee, if it does the gentleman there opposite any, that on a daily basis, as I saLd,the Premier rings, and at eleven o'clock this morning, which was approximately forty-five minutes ago,I went down to the Premier's Office to have a scheduled conversation with him about various matters that he keeps in touch with.

And I think the hon. gentlemen there opposite might be interested to know that, at that very time when I was speaking with the Premier, the Premier was meeting with the Chairman of the Bowaters organization, the world-wide organization. Now this is the gentleman supposedly having no concern whatsoever with respect to the affairs of this Province.

As a matter of fact this is one of the intentions of the Premier, when the Premier goes over to Europe or to major centres like that, he does, as a matter of course I would indicate, most times meet with people who have a very deep interest in this Province, in the industrial affairs of this Province and what have you. 5846

November 26, 1982 Tape 2785 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: So I am not qoing to comment one way or other any further with respect to the substance of the thing except to put the lie really to the imr'resson that the ion, gentleman is trying to create that the Premier is not concerned. When he is over there on the seal fishery,he is over there meeting with the Chairman of Bowaters and he is very much concerned with affairs.

And that is not to say one way or the other I am not going to comment any further other than to say that the Premier had a meeting with officials of Bowaters a while ago and the matter, as I say, I refer the gentleman to the Question Period. But I think it is totally irresponsible of the people there opposite, just purely and simply for the purpose of their own political future, to atter.rpt to make statements that they are careless of, that they do not know the facts with respect to, and they do that from time to timer 5047

November 26, 1982 Tape 2786 CC - 1 MR. MARSHALL. 'I also to cast the type of very serious innu(ndo that they were prepared to sow at the time to the elfect that the Premier, 'Oh, he is over gallivanting around Europe.' Well, now, he happens to be over protectine the seal fishery that the hon. gentlemen there opposite do not think too much about. He happens to be talking to the chairman of Bowaters. Also, this iFouse night like to know, he is talking this afternoon with the hoods of a certain oil company which has interests off thc shores of this Province - SOME HON. MEMBERS: hear, iiear MR.

MARSHALL: - because it is necessary to talk about that. So he is talking about that as well other concerns over there. So to try to sow that particular type of attitude, you know, I mean, it almost makes you shiver and shake and, you know, slink away from tho lunks who would make statements like the hon. aentleman made just purely and simply, I would say, for the purpose of trying to put himself in a certain political position and cast certain innuendoes which are totally, absolutely and completely irresjonsible for the gentleman there opposite. And for the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Noary) to get up and make statements along those lines, Mr. Chairman, as I say, you know - well, the facts speak for themselves. It just goes to show that he is as irresponsible - he is coming into the House now- so I will say he is es irresponsible in his position as interim and temporary Leader of the Opposition as he always was when he was with his friend, Mr. Smallwood and his overnment,when he was sitting as an Independent or an Independent' down there farther,when he was assigiici to the backlenches by the former Leader of the Opposition and as he presently is now. So if he wants 5848

November 26, 1982 Tape 2786 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL. to cast innuendoes along that way perhaps he night be man enough now to get on his feet and (jive what any reasonable person would in the circumstances, an apology. SOME HON. MEMBERS: hear, hear MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. w MR. CHAIRNAN (Aylward): The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, 1 do net know what the hon. gentleman said because I was busy, I just came back into the house, but let me say this, I caught the last part of what the hon. gentleman said about the long distance telephone call, that he had his telephone call with the Premier today. Well, Mr.

Chairman, let mc say this to the hon. gentleman, the hon. gentleman now can play all the political tricks that he wants and he can make all the innuendoes and he can play all the political games that he wants, but the fact of the matter is that the Premier of this Province left to go on a sealing expedition and now, because he is being caught in an embarrassing situation, now he may change his itinerary and change his agenda a little bit to meet with the Bowaters people in London. He may do that, Mr. Chairman, but he will only do it after I raised it this morning during the Oral Question period. Mr.

Chairman, as I said this morning, the first thing that the Premier should have done when he got this information was he should have a called the Mayor of Corner Brook and the city council and the uniors and the Legion and the Chambers of Commerce together. 5849

November 26,1982 Tape No. 2787 ah-1 MR.NEARY: And instead of running away like a coward, running off to Europe on a sealing expedition, he should have met with these people and he should have levelled with them, he should have levelled with the groups in Corner Brook. And now, Mr.Chairman, he is caught like a rat. They are over there now like drowning rats. It NR.SIMMS: ToLaity irresponsible. MR.NEARY: Totally irresponsible. If I had not raised it this morning the urgent phone calls would not have gone out from this Province this morning if I had not raised it. MR.SIMMS: Skunk Skunk Sliincy.

MR.NEARY: Yes, less than a skunk. Only a coward, only a traitor would betray the people who supported the Premier, gave him tour seats in this house. Mr.Chairman, the hon. gentleman is supporting a man who is lower than a skunk at this moment, who would run away from the people, run away from the people that supported him. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR.NEARY: Mr.Chairman, they can shout and bawl all they want over there now. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR.DINN; Will I send over the Mifflin Report?

MR.NEARY: They can shout, and rant and rave, and crow and bawl all they want, but the fact of the matter is- SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR.NEARY: Mr.Chairman, could I have silence please? MR.CHAIRMAN(Aylward) : Order, please MR.NEARY: Could I have silence? Mr.Chairman, the people of Corner Brook deserve better treatment from this administration than they got. 5550

V November 26,1982 Tape No. 2787 ah-2 SOME lION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.NEARY: Do hon. gentleman realize that it was a week ago - Mr.Chairman, could I have silence,please? MR.C1IAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! I would like to remind hon. members that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) has asked to be heard in silence. MR.NEARY: If not would, Your Honour, name the hon. gentlemen, Mr.Chairman? Would you name them if they do not follow your instructions? This is too serious a matter for hon. gentlemen over there to snicker and laugh at.

It was one week ago Wednesday past, a week ago Wednesday past, since Bowaters conveyed that information to the Premier and he did not lift a finger, one week ago Wednesday past. And, Mr.Chairman, now he has gone off. We were told in this house the other day by the Government House Leader (Mr.Marshall) that the Premier was leading a delegation on the seal ban in Europe. [he said nothing about the Bowaters situation. This is only an afterthought, this is only incidenta'! Now that he is being caught in an embarrassing position - MR.STEWART: Do you want to close down the seal fishery?

MR.NEARY: No, F api not happy, I am rather sad about it. I am rather sad to see people of this Province treated in such a shabby way, I 5851

November 26, 1982 Tape 2788 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: Hr. Chairman, people who gave this House on the Tory side, gave the Premier four members, who have been sitting on this information for over a week and will sit on it for another week. The hon. gentleman this morning told us that meetings were going to take place in Newfoundland. He knew nothing about the meeting overseas. The I'remier did not even bother to tell his Cabinet before he left obviously. They cannot fool us, Mr. Chairman, they cannot fool us like that. We know the politicial trickery and the political games they are playing. MR.

TOBIN: We have a very responsible Premier. MR. NEARY: Oh, we have a very responsible Premier. The very responsible Premier runs away like he is coward. Shirks his responsibility and runs away like a coward. MR. TOBIN: Are you against the seal hunt? MR. NEARY: No, I am not against the seal hunt. The seal hunt is important. MR. TOBIN: You said the other day, "Close up the fish plants. Bar them up." MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman is supporting the party that is presiding over the demise of the fish processing sector of the fishing industry in this Province.

The hon. gentleman is supporting that administration. MR. DINN .. Tell us about the building supplies on Bell Island. 5852

November 28, 1982 Tape 2788 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Now, I will tell about all the pay I got from the Avalon Telephone Company while I was a minister. MR. DINN: Did you? MR. NEARY: Ye;. Want me to tell the hon. gentlemen that? MR. DINN: It never happened. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I ask - MR. DINN: Mr. Chairman, I challenge the hon. member to go outside and say that. Go outside and Say it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Ileac, hear: MR. CH1tIT?M]'fl (Aylward) MR. DINN: to go outside and say that. MR. NEARY: silence? Order, please: I challenge the hon. member Order, please'. Mr. Chairman, could I have SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR.

NEARY: - Could I have silence, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please: MR. NEARY: CouLd I have silence? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh'. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please I would like to remind members 4 on both sides of the House that the Chair is having difficulty in hearing the speaker and if they would keep their comments down,please to a reasonable level. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. 5853

November 28, 1982 Tape 2788 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Anyway the fact of the matter is, just to get things in the right perspective, the other day - or a week ago - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, could I have silence, please? MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) Order, please MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman is not in a barroom now. MR. TOBIN: ITo, and you are not either. You are a cowardb Why do you not go out and say what you just said SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please MR. NEARY: Is that parliamentary, Mr. Chairman?

I ask you to ask that hon. gentleman to take that back. Mr. Chairman, that is an unparliamentary word, I ask you to ask - MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the hon. - MR. NEARY: No, I am asking Your Honour to ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw. MR. CHAIRMAN: Did the hon. member make a remark that he would like to withdraw? MR. NEARY: It is unparliamentary. MR. CHAIRMAN: Did the hon. member make a remark that he would wish to withdraw? MR. SIMMS: The hon. Leader ought to sit down if anybody wants to respond. MR. NEARY: Well go ahead, respond. MR. SIMMS: You are not allowed to monopolize the House. 5854

or 4 November 26, 1982 Tape 2788 NM - 4 Mr. Chairman, look I am not qoing to be sidetracked. MR. CHAIRMAN (Ayiward): Order, p1ease You asked that the hon. member withdraw an unparliamentary remark. He has qonc back to his scat so lie can make a comment. The hon. member made a remark while he was in the House there that was not parliamentary and I would ask that he withdraw it. MR. TOBIN: Mr. Chairman, if I made a comment in reference to the hon. member that is unparliamentary, I unqualifiably withdraw it. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR.

STAGG: A Point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: A point of order, the hon. member for Stephenville. MR. STAGG: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) I think uttered the word coward" in 5855

November 26, 1982 Tape 2789 EC 1 MR. STAGC,: reference to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) , I think that is a very apt description of the hon. member who is here today calling other people 'louse 'skunk and'lower than a snake's belly and all of these things he interprets as being parliamentary. Someone describes him quite adequately as a coward arid he protests Meth inks he doth protest too much, Mr. Chairman. SOME lION. MEMBERS: hear, hear MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : To that point of order. Tt is a difference of opinion. MR. NEARY. You cannot allow that to stand on the public record, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: There is no point of order. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Well, then, are you going to allow the hon. gentleman to say indirectly what he cannot say directly? Because that is what he did. MR. CHAIRMAN: Are you on it point of order? The hon. the Leader of the Opposition has a point of order? MR. NEARY: I tell you what, Mr. Chairman, I am not going to allow myself to be distracted. Because this has been the policy of this administration, they are always setting up smoke screens and they are trying to distract from the real issues in this Province. Mr.

Chairman, over one week ago, the Premier of this Province was given information by 4 Bowaters and lie has been sitting on it over since, and he intended to sit on it until next Wednesday or Thursday. When Bowaters made up their mind they were going to have a news conference. 5856

November 26, 1982 Tape 2789 EC - 2 MR, IIEARN: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. MR. CIIAIRMAN1ward): On a point of order, the hon. the member for St. Mary's - The Capes. ME, 1IEARN Mr. Chairman, the member is jmpuqninq that the Premier has done nothing about infor- mation passed to him. He has no way of knowing that that is the case and I presume that he is quoting something which may not be correct. MR. NEARY: To the point of order, Mr. Chairman. £48. CHAiRMAN: to f ft it pa i.n fr of order, the hon. the Leader of the Oppositioo. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, since when does the hon. rookie become an expert on the rules of this House? SOME lION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, that is not a point of ordi' . Tho hon. members are trying to harass me now because obviously I am (jottilig to them, I am hitting a very sensitive point. MR. ChAIRMAN: to that point of order, I rule it is merely a difference of opinion between two hon. members. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Thank you, Sir. Now, if I may 0 be allowed to carry on, Mr. Chairman, uninterrupted. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 4 MR. NEARY: Your honour, could I have silence, please?

MR._CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order! 'Fhis is a very serious matter, Mr. Chairman Over one week ago, the Premier of this 5857

November 26, 1982 Tape 2789 EC - 3 MR. NEARY: Province met with Bowaters and Bowaters conveyed information to the Premier. Now, Mr. Chairman, we wou]d have known nothing about that meeting if I had not asked questions about it in this House this morning. The Government house Leader (Mr. Marshall) confirmed that a moetinq had taken place. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh: MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I ask to be heard in silence1if you do not mind. Would you remind hon. gentlemen they are not in a bar-room now, Mr. Chairman? MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylwarcl): Order, please! Order, please! MR. NEARY: Now, Mr.

Chairman, it is obvious that the Premier did not intond to deal with this situation until Bowaters had their news conference next Wednesday or next Thursday. Now, we still do not know what kind of information they conveyed to the Premier it may have been good news, we do not know; 4

November 26, 1982 Tape No. 2790 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: only the Premier knows,and what did he do? lIe ran away to Europe with the information in his head and when he left this Province we were told by the Government House Leader (Mr. Wm. Marshall),who made p a Ministerial Statement in this liouse,that the Premier was leaving to lead a Canadian delegation on the seal ban in Europe. That was not a true statement, by the way, because the Premier was not leading a delegation but that is another matter, I am not going to get into that now.

The minister said nothing about meetings with Bowaters and now as an after thought incidental to his trip about the sea's in a phone call this morning, the hon. gentleman said, 'Well, I am going down to meet with the representative of Bowaters. MR.CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! The hen, the members time has elapsed. MR. NEARY: I will get back to it again. MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution carry? MR.W. CALLAN: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Chairman, I was sidetracked actually earlier by the Minister of Pinance (Dr. J.

Collins), and I did not intend to get into that; at all, but I did 4 have a couple of clippings in my pocket for a rainy day and the minister gave me the golden opportunity to avail of using thorn. MR. STEWART: By-election in Belluvue. MR. CALLAN: That was an excellent newspaper we put out there, Mr. Chairman, the one that the hon. gentleman is showing interest in even though he is not in his own seat. But anyway, we did win that 5859

November 26, 1982 Tape No. 2790 MJ - 2 MR. W. CALLAN: by-election on April 6, 19811 by 694 votes and we won it, Mr. Chairman, in spite of the fact that the Tory candidate, Jim Peddle from Dodge's Cove, was campaigning door-to-door three months prior to the calling of the election.

Now, who's payroll he was on, whether he was on the provincial payroll, or the Tory payroll, I do not knc, but he was knocking on doors for three months leading up to the time when I tendered my resignation from the Officer of the Leader of the Onposition, sent it up to the speaker, when the Speaker got it the next day the Premier called the by-election. But anyway we did win it by 694 votes in spite of the fact that the Tory candidate who is still ] assume - is he still on the gove'nment payroll?

In these times of restraint, is he another one of those Tory appointments who is draining the taxpayers of this Province? Is Jim Peddle still on the payroll of the provincial Department of Fisheries? We know that harold Collins is and some of the other political appointments. MR. TOBIN: Your other leader, who is he employed by? MR. CALLAN: Johnson's Insurance. 1' LW 4 5060

November 26, 1982 Tape 2791 PR - 1 MR. CALLAN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) is in his seat now. Let me read once again for the Minister of Transportation, and let every member hear, let every member in the House of a Assembly determine whether or not the minister misled the House. On June 22 , and here is Ilansard, the Minister 'I of Transportation stood in his place and he said, 'Mr. Speaker, a number of weeks ago in this hon. House I was asked a question about the tabling of a list of Capital construction projects', June 22, 1982.

That was almost a month after the Budget was presenrod on May 29. MR. YOUNG: That was not Budget day. MR. NEARY: Go out, boy,and crawl in the sewers. MR. CALLAN: And he says, 'I was asked about tabling a list of capital construction projects', and he said, 'And I indicated at thit time that that list was in the process of being finalized. A number of weeks ago it was in the process of being finalized , said the minister on June 22. I said at that time a couple of weeks ago 'That it was in the process of being finalized and as soon as it was finalized it would be presented to this hon.

House as had been the practice last year', said the Minister of Transportation, 'Last year, the year before and the year before that.' In other words, as has been the practice for three consecutive years', and he says, 'it will be the practice again this year'. And he said, 'it will continue to be the practice, Mr. Speaker. It will a be continued to be the practice, Mr. Speaker, and as soon as that list has been finalized I will table it'.

So let me ask the Minister of Transportation once more, I asked him yesterday and in typical Premier fashion he got up and for five minutes completely side-stepped the question- not only that question, I asked him a couple of others completely side-stepped it 5861

November 26, 1982 Tape 2791 PK - 2 MR. CALLAN: went on to reread the Ministerial Statement that he had road a couple of days earlier. And it was rather funny,I thought, Mr. Chairman, I thought it was rather funny to see people like the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) congratulating the minister on his ability to completely side-step a question, not answer it in any way, shape or form and to go on and make a speech about something that was totally, totally different from the matter that I had raised. a a. 5062

November 26, 1982 Tape No. 2792 MJ - 1 MR. W. CALLAN: So let me ask members on both sides of the House, Mr. Chairman, what did the minister actually do on June 22nd? Did he deliberately mislead this [louse? Did he lie to this House? That is the question. MR. S. NEARY: That is right. MR. CALLAN: lie was going to table it in a couple of days. I ani askinq,T am not accusing the minister, I am asking. In all fairness now, politics aside. I moan,when the minister said he was going to table in a couple of days, that is more than five months ago. MR. C. TOB[N: I thought there was somethinq (inaudible) MR.

CALLAN: He said he was going to do it in a couple of days, that is five months ago, we have been back in this particular sitting for nearly a month, for three weeks,and the minister still has not tabled it. MR. NEARY: jr. Chairman, is there not sonthinc in this House that says you have to be in your own seat when you open your mouth. MR. CHAIRMAN y1ward): No, the rule of this House is that you are not allowed to open your mouth while other people are speaking. SOME [ION. MEMBERS: Hear, hoar! MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So anyway, Mr.

Chairman, there is nothing else here relevant. Is the Minister of Transportation (Mr. B. Dawe) going to table that list or is he going to be tarred with the same brush as the Premier is across this Province? MR. R. DAWE: I should lie be so lucky. 5863

November 26, 1982 Tape No. 2792 MJ - 2 MR.W. CALLAN: It took a while, Mr. Chairman it took a while but the people across this i'rovince are finally seeing the Premier for what he really iS, a side- stepper, an arm waver, a preacher, a man who does not want the television cameras brought into the house - MR.S.NEARY: Who runs away uncle r pros sure. MR. CALLAN: - who runs away under pressure, who side-steps issues, puts somebody else UI) front to take the heat until a week or two later when he thinks everybody has forgotten the matter. MR. NEARY: The even runs down to the Super Bowl MR.

CALLAN: Well, the Ocean Ranger will not be forpotten for a long time to come, Mr. Chairman, and the Premier may have hid at the time but, Mr.

Chairman, it seems passing strange to me that at the time on February 15th, the night that the Ocean Raner went clown, at that time the Petroleum Bi rectora to had the services of one inspector, one, at the time when this government was saying thatwe have the best rules and regulations and we have the best system in place than any country has over had, we have learned from the North Sea disasters and experience, we have learned from the experience in other countries and we have a hand he on thin a , ' it aoe!iis passing strange to me, Mr. Chuirman, that there was only one inspector. .

J½nd what appears to me to be more passing strange is that just as the Ocean Ranger inquiry started hearings i ri this capita I c i ty, 555Lf

November 26, 1982 Tape 2793 EC - 1 MR. CALLAN: right in the midst of that we hoar a public statement on the media