LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 2 June, 1987. Time - 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: PresenHng Petitions . . . Reading aqd Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports bf Standing and Special Committees . . . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills . . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 55 students from Grade 9 from the West St. Paul School under the direction of Mr. Terry Bobychuk.

The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable First Minister. We have 18 students from Grade 9 from the Ross L. Gray School under the direction of Miss Sheila Norman . The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Emerson . We have 50 students from Dakota Collegiate under the direction of Lorne Barske. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Riel. We have 25 students from Grade 11 from the McClung Collegiate under the direction of Miss Betty Mueller. The school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Pembina.

On behalf of all the members, we welcome you to the Legislature this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Planning and Priorities Committee of Cabinet - no. of staff hired MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable leader of the ~ Opposition. , MR. G. FILMON: Ttiank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Acting Premier. I note from a Civil Service buUetin that has recently been issued that the government is advertising to hire a number of ·people to staff positions in the Planning and Priorities Committee of Cabinet.

Firstly, the Executive Director, Health and Social Policy unit, at a salary between $47,000 and $58,933 per year; a Special Projects Coordinator, Salary betweeen $41,500 and $55,680 per year; and several policy analysts . My question to the Acting Premier is: What will be the total number of staff that will be hired by the Planning and Priorities Committee of Cabinet? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for that question.

As it is detailed and as it does apply directly to the Premier's Estimates, I think those questions are more appropriately dealt with in the course of his Estimates. Planning and Priorities Committee of Cabinet - total salaries and budget allocation MR. G. FILMON: I wonder, Madam Speaker, given the intention of filling in staff for a major new Committee of Cabinet, a major new bureaucratic structure, whether or not the Minister, the Acting First Minister, can indicate what will be the total salary allocation for this unit to service the Cabinet, and in whose budget will it appear.

Will it be in the Premier's budget; has it been budgeted for in the Estimates that we currently have? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I've already indicated that this would appear in the Estimates of the Premier, and that is where all that information will be found . There was reference to this reorganization during the Throne Speech. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Speaker, is the Acting Premier indicating that that amount for this new bureaucratic structure, this new unit _of service to the Cabinet, that the amount is included in this year's Estimates? HON. M. SMITH: Yes, Madam Speaker.

Brandon General Hospital - closure of beds - how many layoffs MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon West. MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Health. Late last week with the consent and with the approval of the Premier and the Mem.ber for Brandon East, and an honourable · members opposite, the Minister of Labour approved the closure of 49 beds at the Brandon General Hospital. I'd like to ask the Minister of Health, how many layoffs will be involved as a result of these bed closures? I said Health, didn't I? A MEMBER: You said "Labour ." MR. J.

McCRAE: Madam Speaker, I apologize if I inadvertently directed my question to the Minister of Labour . I guess it's because I direct so many his way. The question was for the Minister of Health and it has to do with the layoffs that will be involved with the closure of 49 beds which this Minister approved of last week, 49 beds at the Brandon General Hospital. Will the Minister advise this House how mahy layoffs are involved in that closure? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Zero. 2657

Tuesday, 2 June, 1.987 Brandon General Hospital - how will savings come about MR. J. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, it's expected that the closure of the 49 be(ls will involve the saving of some $400,000.00 . How do those savings come about if there 11ren't layoffs? HON. !-- Dl;:SJARDINS: The only layoff will be exactly as .1 stated before, by attrition or people would be transferred in the community, and there won't be a single layoff. MR. ,I. McCRAE: Madam Speaker, the Minister didn't address the question which was how will those $400,000 savings be achieved? HON. l,..

DESJARDlt,!S: A lot of it, a big chu_nk of it wiU -(Interjection)~ I don't think that's part of that this year. MR. H.. ENNS: 0.ne strip of bacon and one sheet a week. HON. L. DESJARDINS: I don't think that's part of that this year. Most of it will be that there will be no one hired to_ replace people who are on holidays and so on. Brandon General Hospital - will closure Qf bedll reduce elective sur§Jery MR. J. McCRAE: Will the closure of two wings of the hospital in Brandon result in reduced numbers of elective surgeries? HON. l,.. DESJARDINS: That could be.

It could be, I would imagine that if there 's less beds; there c.ould be a reduction o1 elective surgery, that's possible. ll:lrandon General Ho .. pital - where do · go.vemm•nt priorities lie MADAIII SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Member for Brandon West with a question? ~R. J. McQllAE: I direct it to the Minister of Health or the Minister of Labour, or whoever wants to answer over there.

Over the las.t four or five years, this government has gi)ten away to their la~our friends - certainly in the rillanito .ba Federation of Labour - somewhere a~ound $ l million tor the Manit .Qba: i;.abour propaganda <;entre; L w.onder it the Minister. of Labo.ut or the Min_ister. o.f Heaitti wo~ld .. like, t<> tell us wtiere. the priority is when 3:.5. percent 1 • i{lcrease this year is given .. to ..

Brandon <>.en~r,al H05pital, and that hospital is expected to li.ve within that kind of budget, without any dl;lficit; no deficit is a!loweq . when funding o!· 3.5 percent increase .is given to Brandon General Hospital; where is the priority of this ·government when $1 million goes to their labour friends and we have to cut beds in my community? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourab,e Minister of Labour . HON. A.

MACKLING: Madam Speaker, the honourable member asked the same question during the course of the review of the Estimates in the Department of Labour last night, and I pointed out to him then, and I point out now, that this government has consistently maintained funding for health in excessive levels across the country. We have maintained . our spending on education and on social services, and we have resisted what other Conservative Governments in ·this country have done, taken a knife and slashed social programming, slashed expenditures in respect to vital ·• health services .

Madam Speaker, we've done this at a time when a Conservative Federal Government has c;ontinued to cut back on spending for health and secondary education. We've done that; we've maintained ttie course; we've (llaintai _ned the faith of our constituency, the people of Manitoba to maintain those services. MAl)AM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. May I remind honourable . members that q~estion period is not a time for debate. Infant death - investigation re whose jurisdiction mother under MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. M.R. G. MERCIE.R: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Community , Services, whom we asked last week whether or not her department, rather than the Northwest Child and Family Services, had jurisdiction over a 16~year-old mother of a three-week ol.d infant who died as a result of child abuse?

I would ask her now, Madam Speaker, in view of the statements . by the former chairman of the Northwest Child and Family agencies that the government was re,sponsible. tor the mother and that the government office did not provide adequate aid to the 16-year-old mother; and, in view of the fact that his suggestion that I.he Deputy Minister of Community Services has not bo.thered to check up on th.e facts; would she advise the House whether she has investigated that , matter and whether · ·or not she can inform the House as to whether her department or the Northwest Child and Family · Service a.gencies had jurisdiction over the . mother?

MADA,. . t;PEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Ser.vices. HON. M. SMITH: Madam~ Speaker, there is a jurisdictional issue with regard to the mother and, in 1 that case, it is true that Thompson had jurisdiction . The. elements of the case that led us to take strong action was a protection aspect for the services to the entire family, and that had been under Northwest. We also had concerns about communication between agencies, but all of these factors, including the matter raised by the member opposite, wili be thoroughly reviewed. 2658.

Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 Infant death - tabling of investigation report MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman , when can the House expect the Minister to table her investigation and report into this whole matter? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I identified the process we follow in reviewing individual cases, and what the factors are that we look at in terms of when we report. I also indicat~d that the review of Northwest and the review of direc forate procedures, we hope to have completed within two to three months. Awasis Agency - report re investigation of MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, I had asked the Minister some months ago to do an investigation of the Awasis Agency and certain allegations that were against it, including the non-reporting of abuse cases. There are now statements by child abuse workers which indicate or imply that the number of abuse cases are being underreported by Native agencies. Could the Minister investigate whether she has completed her investigation of the Awasis Agency and the 14-year-old girl who was allegedly raped and assaulted, and whether or not she is looking into the suggestions that the number of abuse cases are being underreported?

HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, there is no evidence of underreporting but, if any comes to light, we will take action. With regard to the individual case, we are awaiting again some information, but it will be completed shortly. Safe Grad - television advertising program with narrow audience MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

My question is to the Minister responsible for the ~ Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. , We have, in many schools in this province, a program called "Safe Grad," a program which is sponsored by students and their parents for the graduating members of a class in order that the drinking take place under very controlled circumstances and that they do not drive automobiles . Will the Minister please explain why a province-wide television advertising program is going on promoting "Safe Grad," when the audience that would be attracted would be very narrow , only the Grade 12 students and their parents?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for MPIC. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Indeed, I'm very pleased to advise that MPIC has been involved in Safe Grad since, I believe, 1982. With respect to the advertising, I would imagine that all Manitobans should be interested in our young people having a safe graduation. As to the timing, I'll take that question as notice . Safe Grad advertising campaign - justification of money spent on MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A supplementary question to the same Minister.

How does he justify the expenditure of that kind of sum on an advertising campaign, when premiums for owners of automobiles this year increased from 9 percent to 30 percent? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Madam Speaker , I don't know exactly what the contribution towards this effort is from MPIC.

I do know there are a number of groups that are involved in this exercise, but I would think it would be clearly evident to anyone that the saving of one life through a Safe Grad exercise would save Manitoba Public Insurance possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars, so I think that whether it be $2,000 or $20,000, it is money well spent. Safe Grad advertising - costs of MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A final supplementary to the same Minister, Madam Speaker. Would the Minister table the costs of all the production and the media transmission costs of these advertisements? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Madam Speaker, the Safe Grad Program, if MPIC is the lead department or agency responsible for that program, I will gladly table that. Otherwise, I will seek that information and provide that to this House. MACC - policy re Federal Farm Debt Review Panels MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose du Lac. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Agriculture. Has the Minister given any direction to MACC, or has MACC developed a policy regarding negotiations with their clients when they appear before Federal Farm Debt Review Panels?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister bf Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I'm not sure that we have provided any additional guidelines to MACC in the last number of months, but I can advise my honourable friend that since the time that we set up the voluntary review panels, over two years ago, we had advised MACC that they would be treated no differently than any other lender before that committee, and they were to in fact comply and work with that committee, even though it was on a voluntary basis. So we expect that the corporation would, in fact: (

a) if they cannot come to a voluntary negotiated settlement with a client, that they would participate fully in the review process, whether it be with the Federal Review Panel or the Provincial Review Panel. 2659

Tu~sday/ 2 June·, 1987 MACC - how many agreements reached MR. G. CUMMINGS: I wonder if the Minister could tell us how many agreements MACC has reached after appearing before panels . HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I will have to take that question as notice because I'm not certain as to how many actual cases, which were initiated by MACC, in fact , would have gone to a panel; or I will attempt to provide as well information for my honourable friend about information that they had settlements without going to panels , so I will take the specifics of that question as notice .

MACC -:. not meeting deadlines re panels MR. G. CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker, can the Minister explain to this House why MACC appears to be deliberately sabotaging negotiations? They ' re procrastinating , and they're simply not prepared to present a position when they go before panels . Is this a direction from the Minister, or is he aware that this is happening? Why can they not meet deadlines the same as other creditors appearing before those panels? HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, if my honourable friend has information that he wishes to bring to my attention about the corporation not meeting deadlines , or not negotiating in good faith, I wish that he would bring those specifics to my attention and we could , in fact , deal with them on a case-by-case basis . I don't accept, unless I have proof that the corporation is, as he alleges, sabotaging negotiations; I don't accept that premise . But if there are cases where that in fact that is occurring, I would want to know about that so that we could take corrective action .

MACC - appear before Agriculture Committee of the House MR. G. CUMMINGS: A new question to the same Minister, Madam Speaker . I think it hinges around whether or not the Minister agrees what the word "sabotage " means because MACC is so often reluctant to have a position when they appear before panels , then the panels can simply not reach a conclusion .

Because of these charges and various other concerns that have been presented , I wonder if the Minister will be prepared to ask MACC to appear before the Agricultural Committee of this House so that we can examine their policies and the direction that they've been given? HON. B.

URUSKI: I hope the honourable member 's vague allegations that he's placed on the record today are not the same kind of allegations that he's made to the press about the buy-down program which he says that Manitoba farmers have to pay thousands of dollars up front in the buy-down program to gain any benefits, Madam Speaker, know ing full well that those kinds of comments are inaccurate . Madam Speaker, the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation just came through the Estimates of this House, in which we spent some 30 hours . We did debate those Estimates .

If the honourable member , in fact , did have allegations , that was clearly the time to bring them forward in this House. · As I've indicated earlier, Madam Speaker, if there are specific allegations , not the kind of vague innuendo that the honourable member appears to be putting on ' the record, are there , I will be pleased to invest igate them . Crown corporations - investigation of salaries MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My i question is to the Minister of Crown Investments .

As reported in yesterday 's Free Press , Madam Speaker, the firm of Thorne Stevenson & Kellogg has been hired by the government to do an investigation and a review of salaries of heads of Crown corporations . On January 16, 1985, Madam Speaker, the Cabinet approved a structure to deal with the salaries of Crown corporation heads, and I'd like to read the three aspects tha t were approved by Cabinet.

" (1) the salaries of all Crown corporations ' chief executive officers be approved by Cabinet upon the recommendation of the Minister responsible for the Crown corporation, together with the Minister of Crown Investments; (2) that the determination of employee compensation below the level of CEO be delegated to operating management and the board of directors subject to government guidelines, as communicated to the board by the Minister of Crown Investments ; and (3) that all compensation packages approved by the boards of directors be forwarded to Manitoba Crown Investments ." I'd like to ask the Minister , Madam Speaker , could he tell us, or indicate to the House, why this latest study was important , or why it was needed when , in fact , there is a structure in place to deal with salar ies of heads of Crown corporations?

MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Crown Investments . HON. G. DOER: The study that the member opposite indicates and reflects on has been tabled by the Minister of Crown Investments . Last summer those facts were , made public and the relationship between the various 'CEO's have been put on the public record .

We did, at a request of a newspaper reporter, update those figures, which are of course public , and did indicate that a number of specific CEO position salaries . were under review ; and, furthermore , that we were reviewing the whole structure dl the CEO's salaries , Madam Speaker , in terms of relevance to the marketplace , the provinc ial economy and the economic realities of the provincial economy, and the economic · strengths of the Crown corporations as part of our Manitoba infrastructure . Hayes Management Study - tabling of MR. L.

DERKACH: Well, Madam Speaker, a former - study by the management firm of Hayes Management 2660

Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 was done by MTS to review the salaries of Crown corporations and, according to our information, that particular study did go to the Minister responsible for Crown Investments . Can the Minister indicate what happened to that study and would he be prepared to table that study in the House? HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker, I'd like to understand the question. Did the member opposite indicate a study in MTS, dealing with au CEO's of all the Crowns? MR. L. DERKACH: Madam Speaker, I think the super Minister knows what I mean. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. MR. L.

DERKACH: I'm simply indicating if the study by Hayes Management . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. MR. L. DERKACH: . . that was contracted by MTS was done. HON. G.DOER: MTS? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. As the honourable member well knows, we refer to each other by proper titles . Thank you. The Honourable Minister of Crown Investments. HON. G. DOER: Madam Speaker, the member opposite has asked two questions. One, is the relationship of salaries for all the CEO's, and two, is a specific question on a Hayes study In MTS. There are two different issues there.

The study that we have contracted for is in terms of all the Crown corporation CEO's and that study, when it's dealt with, and the restitts are concluded, in terms of the decisions to be made, I'd certainly be willing to share with the House when all the decisions are made based on the study, because ultimately Cabinet and the government must make the decisions based on the data they receive. Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation - no. of all-risk contract cancellations MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Agriculture .

I would like to ask him how many all-risk contracts did Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation cancel this spring because farmers had not paid the all-risk premium by the deadline that was imposed by the corporation? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honorable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I go on recollection. I believe that information was provided in Estimates during that time. If it was not, I will take the question as notice and provide that information for my honourable friend . 2661 Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation - conditions re cancellation of all-risk insurance MR. G.

FINDLAY: I would like to ask the Minister under what conditions can the Crop Insurance Corporation cancel the farmers all-risk contract , when his all-risk premium is completely paid up? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I'll take that question as notice and ask the corporation as to what their operating policies insofar as cancellations, whether or not there are other factors that are considered in terms of future contracts.

One of those might be, of course, the whole question of uninsured causes, which deals with the question of management and the m.1mber of claims, where a corporation could, in fact, as a result of consistent claims and poor management, would say that there's a consistent loss and . . . in the corporation because of identified poor management practices would, in fact, cancel the contract .

But I will take the specifics and ask the corporation if there are other details, other criteria which they use to assess a future cancellation of a contract because I do consider that as very, very much a last measure that the corporation would employ. Manitoba Crop Insurance Corporation - deadline extension for premium payment MR. G. FINDLAY: I'd like to ask the Minister if the Crop Insurance Corporation is presently, or is considering granting extensions to the deadline for premium payment for farmers that are before the Federal Debt Review Board or in front of the Provincial Mediation Board . HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, the corporation did provide some extensions in certain cases if premiums were in fact paid by certain deadlines . I'll take that question as notice and just find out what their current policies are. But I believe, Madam Speaker, those issues were in fact raised and discussed during Estimates . If they were not, I guess my honourable friend's forgotten about those issues. Education tax rebate - details of policy re MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina . MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Agriculture.

Madam Speaker, the Minister of Agriculture and his colleague, the .Minister of Municipal Affairs, have been working on the policy by which farmers will receive the $500 rebate on education taxes paid. Can the Minister indicate when he expects to announce the details of that policy and the method by which farmers will qualify for that $500 rebate? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture.

Tuesday, 2 June; 1987 HON. B. UflUSKI: Madam .Speaker , our discussions with municipal · officials and secretary-treasurers are near completion and staff are working on the final details. It's my hope that the announcement will be made within the next two weeks or so. Education Tax rebate policy - available for munici·pal meetings MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

Given that the policy will be ready in approximately two weeks and has been worked on for some several months now, does the Minister of Municipal Affairs expect to have that policy available for discussion at the municipal meetings that start in mid-June so that councillors can express their support , or lack thereof , for the policy that he is about to put in place? Will they have that opportunity to discuss that at the municipal meetings? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs . HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Madam Speaker .

I have every expectation, along with my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture, to have all the information out to municipal offic ials prior to district meetings and we look forward to their support in this respect . Education tax rebate policy - payment to retired farmers MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, a question then for the Minister of Agriculture .

Madam Speaker, will the policy which the Minister of Municipal Affairs expects to be announced within the ·next week or so, will it include the payment of property taxes, the rebate of education taxe·s to those farmers who are retired or may be renting land to their sons or neighbours? Will that be part of the policy that is to be announced? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture . HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I ask my honourable friend to be patient for a little longer and the details will be announced.

As well , I'd like to indicate to him that we've had ongoing discussions with municipal officials and there were some concerns expressed about some of the difficulties in delivering the program - and we anticipate that there will be some difficulties . However, the executive of the Union of Manitoba Municipalities has indicated that they are prepared to deliver the program , notwithstanding some difficulties that may arise because there are a number of categories that have to be dealt with. But I ·ask my honourable friend to be patient and he'll receive the details in the next while .

Cobalt treatments - delay in receiving MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Gladstone . 2662 MRS. ·c. OLESON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Health . Is there a delay in obtaining cobalt treatments in Manitoba? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , I'll have to take that as notice . Cobalt treatment - reason for delays MRS. C. OLESON: A further question to the Minister.

A constituent of mine has complained to me that her brother , who was to begin a series of 30 cobalt treatments in mid-May , and lasting two months, has been told that he might be able to begin in the middle of June . Can the Minister tell us why there are such lengthy delays in getting treatment? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker , I already said that I would take the question as notice . What I would appreciate is getting , if the member could send me the name, that I'll treat confidentially, of the people , I'll check. Cobalt treatment - how many waiting MRS. C.

OLESON: While the Minister is taking that as notice and looking for that information, perhaps he could also find out how many other people are waiting long terms for treatment of this kind. Planning and Priorities Committee - where are salaries within the Estimates MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Speaker . Earlier in the question period, I asked the Acting Premier about the buildup of the bureaucracy in the Planning and Priorities Committee of Cabinet.

She indicated that the cost of that bureaucracy was included in the Estimates of the Premier 's department, Executive Council. Madam Speaker , the Planning and Priorities Committee has hired a secretary, Mr. Mendelson , at a salary in excess of $70,000.00 . They're advertising for an Executive Director at a minimum salary of $47.7 · thousand ; they're advertising for a Special Project Coordinator at a minimum salary of $41 .5 . thousand, plus a number of other poli ljY analysts . This amounts to $160 ,000 plus the policy analyst, which would undoubtedly take it well over $200,000 .00.

Yet I see that there is only an add itiona l $102,000 in Administration , Salaries in the Premier 's department. I wonder if the Acting Premier could indicate where those salaries are within the Estimates of the Premier's department. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services .

I. Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I think again, the detailed discuss ion can go on in the Premier's Estimates. But, as said in the Throne Speech , government has taken the Economic Resource Investment Committee and its resources, and the Social Resource Committee, and converted them into two different committees; one under the Treasury Board, where Michael Mendelson is assigned, and the other - and please note Michael Mendelson is with the Treasury component - the other is the Planning and Priorities Committee.

To the best of my knowledge the dollars and tthe staff will appear under the Premier's Estimates, but it's really a redeployment from ERIC and SAC. Planning and Priorities Committee - re layoffs in favour of additions MR. G. FILMON: Would the Acting Premier indicate whether other staff will be laid off in favour of these that are being added? HON. M. SMITH: Madam Speaker, I'll take that as notice . Workers Compensation Board - injured workers sent to U.S. for CAT scans MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H.

ENNS: Thank you, Madam Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board . My question, Madam Speaker, is: Can he confirm that the board routinely sends injured workers across the line to American health facilities for tests, particularly those involving the CAT scan machines,

whereas ordinary Manitobans, as the one just alluded to by my colleague , the Member for Gladstone, are being asked to wait four, five, six and seven months. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for Workers Compensation . HON . H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, it is my understanding that it is not a routine matter to be sending people over across the border for some of the tests. We know that there are some requirements for doing CAT scans when there is an urgency and we can't meet the needs here in Manitoba .

There are some of those tests conducted in the states, but only in specialized cases, when the urgency is very great, that facility is utilized across the border . MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker, just so I understand the urgency, what urgency the Minister speaks of. I believe the urgency is monies that the Workers Compensation Board has to pay out while a worker is injured; it may not be a medical situation. The Workers Compensation Board, in attempting to save money, will pay for Manitobans getting these medical services in the United States . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a supplementary question?

MR. H; ENNS: Yes, Madam Speaker . I want to ask the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board, can he give us some indication of how many cases have been referred to American health facilities in the last little while? HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, I'll have to take that specific question as notice. CAT scans in the United States - unfair to some Manitobans MR. H. ENNS: A supplementary question, Madam Speaker, directed to a new Minister , to the Minister of Health.

I wonder - I ask the Minister of Health , if he thinks it's particularly fair that some Manitobans in need of special tests have that paid for in American facilities, while others do not? MADAM SPEAKER: Would the honourable member care to rephrase his question so it does not seek an opinion? MR. H. ENNS: Madam Speaker , Manitobans, when injured on a job, requiring specific medical tests have them paid for done in American medical facilities, because of the long delays that we face here in our own system .

Ordinary citizens who require the same kind of tests are asked to wait five, six, seven months or, as the Minister knows, often go across the line, and have those tests done and pay for them in their own money. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question for the Minister of Health? MR. H. ENNS: I'm asking the Minister of Health whether he thinks that is a fair situation? MADAM SPEAKER: That question seeks a personal opinion. CAT scans in the United States - is policy denying access still in place MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, I'd like to pose a question to the Minister 91 Health. About 18 months ago, or 15 months ago, the government announced a policy whereby Manitobans could no longer go to the United States for CAT scans and tests for which delays, inordinate delays, are imposed upon Manitobans through the health care system in Manitoba. Is that policy of denying Manitobans access to CAT scans in United States still in place? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . HON. L. DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, I don't know of any change in these policies. The polic ies were that 2663

Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 certain tests , r:iot all of them , certain tests under certain conditions would not be acceptable . I agree that all this should be investigated. I'm kind of surprised at my honourable friend from Lakeside because two days ago he wanted to know why we weren't paying the bills of somebody going to Mayo Clini e, but we'll check the whole th ing and let you know. CAT, scans in the United States - all Manitobans equal MR. D.

ORCHARD:- Madam Speaker, given that it's obvious the policy of the Workers Compensation Board is to allow workers , injured , to go to the United States for CAT scans and other diagnostic tests , would the Minister not consider chang ing the policy in the Department of Health in allowing every Manitoban that opportunity for CAT scans in the United States when they are forced inordinate delays of time by using the Manitoba system? Would he not consider that all Manitobans are equal and that the Workers Compensation claimants should not have a privilege that other Manitobans don 't have? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Madam Speaker, the aim certainly would be to treat everybody the same, certainly as much as possible. ., I am not responsible, the Department of Health is not respons ible in setting up the policy for t he Compensat ion Board, but there has been some discussion between the Ministers responsible to make it more unifo rm, and Autopac also, because there are certain areas that are certainly not the same. Some people seem to be entitled and a larger payment for certain things; that is being looked at, at th is time . MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker , a question to the Deputy Premier .

Does the Deputy Premier consider the policy whereby all Manitobans are paying for CAT scans given by the Workers Compensation Board in covering the deficit in WCB, that those same Manitobans should be given the opportunity to have their CAT scans paid for in the United States when they're not available through the health care system of the Minister? HON. L. DESJARDINS: We're certainly not going to start increasing the facilities to go to the United States, not at all. We want to go in the other direction .

And my honourable friend knows well that we've ordered , that there are more CAT scans coming, and they will be set up fairly soon . There'll be four in the Greater Winnipeg area and there should be one in Brandon. MR. D. ORCHARD: Madam Speaker, then is it the Minister of Health 's policy that until those new CAT scans are available for Manitobans , that he will continue to d iscrim inate and allow Worker Compensation patients to go to the United States and have the ir costs covered , while the rest of Manitobans, through the Department of Health, either do without the test , wait or pay for it? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: The policy of the Compensation Board is not the responsibility of the Department of Health . and that is done in certain areas . I have stated - nothing was done when you were in power - and I'm stating -that we're looking at the . . . A MEMBER : We didn 't have those waiting lists either. HON. L. DESJARDINS: You had no CAT scan at all, how the heck can you . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. L. DESJARDINS: I didn 't say that word . So, i anyway, I said that there are meetings with the different • Ministers to try to have more uniformity.

There are also fees to different providers of services that are not the same . We know that and we're looking at it to try to rect ify that ; we're looking at a lot of things in the department. I don 't know why you're shaking your head, it's true . MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has exp ired. ORDERS OF THE DAY HOUSE BUSINESS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. J. COWAN: Madam Speaker , first , on two matters of House Business .

Madam Speaker, as you are aware, earlie r in the Sess ion, on March 5, the Opposition House Leader and myself agreed to a sequence for the consideration of the Estimates of the various government departments , and tabled that sequence under the rules as provided for in our Rule Book . The rules, also, Madam Speaker , according to

Section 65(6.3), allow for a change in the sequence either by mot ion or unanimous consent. I have had discussions with the Member for River Heights and with the Opposition House Leader , the Member for St . Norbert , in respect to some recommended changes in the sequence which I would like to place before the House at the present time.

As it stands now, Madam Speaker, we would be going into the considerat ion of the Estimates of the Department of Business Development and Tourism today, followed by Employment Services and Economic Security , and Consumer and Corporate Affairs , and the rest of the list as tabled on the 5th of March .

What has been agreed to by unanimous consent is that today , instead of Business Development and Tourism , we will consider the ~epartment of Consumer and Corporate Affairs ; followed by the Department of Employment Services and Economic Security on a subsequent day; and then followed by that, when they are finished with their review , by the Department of Bus iness Development and Tourism ; and the rest of the list would stay the same . So I'm seeking unanimous consent for those changes to be made under the rules provided for. MADAM SPEAKER: Is that agreed? (Agreed) 2664

Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 HON. J. COWAN: Having received that, Madam Speaker, I'd like to thank the Member for St. Norbert and his colleagues , and the Member for River Heights, and the members on this side, indeed, for their cooperation in making those changes , particularly the critics who are involved . The Member for Riel has been most , most helpful, Madam Speaker, and should be singled out for special attention . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. J. COWAN: Si!riously, I do want to go on the record as expressing our appreciation for all the cooperation we've received in this regard .

Also , Madam Speaker, I believe there's a disposition on the part of members not to go into Private Members' Hour today, by leave , to forego Private Members' Hour. MADAM SPEAKER: Is that agreed? (Agreed) The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. J. COWAN: I, Madam Speaker , therefore move, seconded by the Minister of Agriculture, that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty .

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty , with the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Urban Affairs; and the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet in the Cha ir fo r the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs . CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Baker: Committee , come to order. The opening remarks from the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, please. HON. A. MACKLING: Thank you , Mr. Chairperson .

I'm getting a copy of these remarks made and I'll have it for the critic just as soon as it arrives, or I'll give him this copy after I finish . Mr. Chairperson, fellow members, as Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, I'm pleased to make the following remarks regarding development in the department during 1986-87 . As well, I will briefly touch upon new initiatives for 1987-88 .

Consumer and Corporate Affairs has a number of functions, but its general mandate is to strike a balance in the marketplace, providing public protection while, at the same time , setting basic rules of conduct for industry standards. My department strives to provide Manitobans with the information, the mechanisms and the confidence that will give them a sense of intelligent command over their consumer decisions .

The corporate side of Manitoba Consumer and Corporate Affairs involves both the administration of laws which regulate certain industries such as insurance, real estate, a variety of licens ing statutes, and direct commercial services such as business incorporation . 2665 Although small in numbers - the department has approximately 100 employees - we administer 21 provincial acts through the Consumers ' Bureau , Insurance, Corporations and Business Names Branches, the Public Utilities Board and the Securities Commission .

Preventing problems and getting consumers and business people together to solve problems are the methods used by the department to effect the rights and responsibilities as detailed in Manitoba law. Department staff are dedicated to dealing with consumer inquiries, providing suggestions and dealing with complaints from individuals and groups of consumers throughout the province. As an example, the Consumers' Bureau received over 2,600 written complaints in 1986-87, resolving approximately 2,000 through mediation . Corporations and Business Names dealt with 38,000 over-the-counter inquiries and requests.

As well , this branch handled more than 54,000 telephone inquiries , an 18.8 percent increase over the previous year. Automation of the record-keeping system in the Corporation and Business Names Branch neared completion . The initial input of data has now been completed. As well, all documents filed since August 1, 1986, have been microfilmed . Microfilming of the branch's 80,000 active files is progressing satisfactorily . The securities capital markets are utilized at a level considerably above average which marks the continuation of a trend .

The Securities Commission cleared a total of 870 securities issues of all kinds in 1986 - an increase of 21 percent over 1985. As well, amendments to The Securities Act, Bill No. 38, in 1986, helped Manitoba maintain uniformity with the Ontario act in the area of takeover bid provisions. The branch is currently awaiting the final drafting changes on the Ontario regulations to remit the branch to blend in the province's own and bring the legislation into force .

Enabling Legislation was passed to bring one step closer the establishment of a plan to compensate loss claimants when a general insurer becomes insolvent. As well, legislation was passed to allow a spouse to force cancellation of an insurance policy on his or her life where an insurable interest no longer exists . With respect to current departmental issues, there are several areas of concern, some new, others ongoing . My department is completing the final arrangements for a General Insurance Compensation Fund which will pay claims in the event of an insurance company 's insolvency.

The plan should reduce the possibility of an insurance company failure by implementing increased capitalization levels and higher regulatory standards . As well, the superintendent of Insurance continues to work with industry officials on formulating a compensation program for life insurance . The travel industry has developed a default protection plan which reimburses travellers who have lost their money as the result of the financial collapse of a travel wholesaler or retailer.

While the plan is a benefit to consumers, I feel the travel industry has not adequately informed the public of the availability of the plan . I've met with industry officials to express my concerns and have encouraged them to actively promote the program in the future . I believe progress is being made with our federal counterparts regarding financial institutions . However,

Tuesday; 2 June; 1987 we have concerns with the recent bilateral agreement that was signed between the Federal Government and Ontario. This agreement appears to open the door for Ottawa to get into the securities field which, until recently, had been strictly provincial jurisdiction . A number of provinces are concerned about the Federal Government's involvement and as a result, my department , along with my provincial counterparts, are keeping a close watch on this issue . I am also concerned about the role of financial planners in today's society .

Financial planners handle millions of consumer investor dollars yearly but are virtually unregulated. This is an issue that is not unique to our prov ince . I remain in touch with my counterparts in other provinces, as well as with industry representatives, as we discuss the future role of the financial planning industry in Canada . This pasfyear , I've spoken out on Bill C-22, the bill amending the Drug Patent Act . My government's concerns are well-known to the Opposition .

We believe these amendments will result in an increase in drug prices for consumers as well as governments through Pharmacare and other similar programs. I will appear before the Senate Committee studying the amendments to voice our concerns . The increase in the flow of securities issues being sold under a prospectus is being maintained . Through the early months of 1987, our Securities Comm ission has noticed a 60 percent increase over the comparabie period for last year in the category of commercial prospectuses .

Further amendments to The Securities Act will be brought to the Legislature, designed to broaden the net regarding improper insider trading and increase markedly the penalties to be imposed for such activity. As I believe I've demonstrated , Consume r and Corporate Affair 's primary objective is to protect Manitoba's consumers while maintaining a marketplace in which businesses can compete fairly.

This is an industrious mandate for a department with such limited human and financial resources; but from a more positive perspective, our circumstances have forced us to take a hard look at how we are utilizing our resources . We've discovered how to use what we have more effectively and more creatively . I'd like to close by noting that a growing number of consumers are taking a more proactive approach.

We support this initiative with our Community Outreach programs and services , because it stands to reason that the more responsibility Manitobans assume for their own welfare , the more consumer conscious they become. As that consciousness grows, the pressure on government should be somewhat relieved, allowing resources to be targeted to the most needy .. Mr. Chairperson, I have presented to this committee a brief overview of my department 's achievement in the past fiscal year, as well as our goals for '87-88 .

I refer Manitoba Consumer and Corporate Affair's Spending Estimates to your committee for review and passage . MFI. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. The Member for Riel. MR. G. DlfCHARME: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. First of all, maybe what I should do is determine the procedures. Generally, I have general comments to the Minister in regard to different items that have come up and different items that were mentioned in last year's comments by the Minister . As you probably appreciate , in the Estimates there isn 't too much difference between last year's and this year.

There is only one line in the Estimates that I have a question on, and I do have some questions on the report. So how would you like to deal with them? In what procedure? Would I go through and make some comments , and if you'd like to reply to my comments , because in the Estimates the line-by-line is going to take about a half a minute?

To the Minister , in his statements last year, in '86 , when we went through this for the first time - and, first s of all, I must mention that it is indeed a pleasure for l me to go through the Estimates of Consumer and ,_l _• Corporate Affairs because I probably fit in line as being J an insurance agent , a realtor and part of a corporation . I I may have a little bit of a confl ict but I enjoy this type · of ... Mr.

Min ister , in your comments last year, you mentioned the automation of the corporations and business names, entering of information, etc ., into the system , and information would be in the fiscal year '86-87.

You mention this year that it's going along very well, and I quote last year, "The new system will improve the branch 's service to the public by allowing a shorter response time on name searches as well as simplifying filing requirements ." J ~ j I, as an individual who believes in this computerized system and who probably tried the system out about •1,-·-_ a week-and-a-half ago - I sent my son down to register a name - and I can appreciate what they go through. I think it's a real need . ~ My question to the Minister right now is that maybe he could give us an update on where it's at.

I know that they 're entering the information now. They have the hardware . Could you tell me whether Mr. Khan, who is organiz ing this, is still entering the information , or maybe give us an update on it? HON. A. MACKLING: The honourable member is quite right. At last year 's Estimates review I did indicate the ongo ing initiative in respect to computerization, the development of a much more, hopefully , efficient system for the Consumer and Corporate Affairs Branch . Initial funding was provided for and the work is ongoing . There have been some glitches , or whatever you want to term, in the system .

I think this can occur with all new systems . We have some measure of disappointment and dissatisfaction with what appears to be the costs of the system ; and we are looking lit that with advisors on these systems and in-house assistance from the Treasury Branch . We're hopeful that the system, as all automated systems , will prov ide the kind of service 1 which we feel is necessary for the branch . ,. Mr. Khan is ongoing as directo r. He's seconded to work with my Deputy Minister in the development and the review of some of the initiatives that we are discussing for a subsequent legislative Sess ion.

I'm not in the position to go into extens ive detail about those '

Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 policy thrusts because they haven't been taken forward as proposals yet to my colleagues . MR. G. DUCHARME: So the position that the individual was doing, the computerized, so no new position has been created or you've then brought someone in to now take over that position, to set up - I'm not knocking the computerized system; I'm all for it. I appreciate the position of the department and of all computerized systems that there can be problems with any of them. All I'm saying is: Has any new position been created to help along witl'i this particular scope? HON. A.

MACKLING: I just wanted to confirm - as I've indicated, we asked Financial Services, or Treasury Branch, to assist in a review of the system and its costs and its efficiencies . We've asked Manitoba Data Services also to assist in a review of the system to make sure that it is working the way it ought to work with the efficiencies we expect should be there . We haven't created any new position for that. Myron Pawlowsky will be moved into an Acting Director 's position while Mr. Khan is under secondment.

I should introduce my staff : Don Zasada, the Deputy Minister ; and Fred Bryans, Director of Administration; Myron Pawlowsky; and Karen Garney. MR. G. DUCHARME: You mentioned the costs. What was the original budget to set it up, or did we have it spread over two or three years? What was the original budget to set up the computerized system? HON. A. MACKLING: The overall cost was an estimate of $790,000 to be spread over three years . MR. G. DUCHARME: Can you tell me what it's costing a month. right now? HON. A.

MACKLING: I'm given to understand that the operating costs are $15,000-17,000, but that includes the input costs and on-line costs . MR. G. DUCHARME: Do we have any idea what it will be over and above our estimated cost? HON. A. MACKLING: Those costs, $15,000-17,000, are considerably more than what we anticipated · and we are waiting to get the analysis from MDS and Financial Services . MR. G. DUCHARME: And you 'll be providing us with that at some time? HON. A. MACKLING: I don't know how quickly I'll have that. It may be months before we have it. MR. G.

DUCHARME: Also, you mentioned , and I'm glad you mentioned it because it was a bill that I felt the industry had worked on. Your Bill 42 that you brought in last year was the collapse of general insurance companies, and I was wondering - you did give us a little update - how is the Canadian Council of Superintendents of Insurance, a new program, how is it working or where is it at now at this present time? Maybe Mr. McGill or somebody else could answer that . HON. A.

MACKLING: I'm given to understand that, while the agreement is not complete, the superintendents are working and, I gather , progressing in getting resolution to complete the program and put it in place. MR. G. DUCHARME: Maybe while Mr. McGill is presently here, you did bring up about the financial lenders in regard to something to protect the consumer. I know that in the life insurance companies, there hasn't been one in 60 years gone under, but will this fit in the same as some proposed meetings now between the superintendents to come up with something for the life insurance companies?

Would the lenders also be in the same type of category or financial investors, I should say? HON. A. MACKLING: In respect to the Life Insurance Compensation Fund, that's not going. In respect to financial planners , that's an entirely different matter . We will be meeting with them and pursuing our objectives there as well. MR. G. DUCHARME: Just to go on then, I'm going to probably, as I say, come back and forth a little bit . But you also mentioned in your report last year, and we were involved in the controversy of the bill and we involved a Dr.

Nicolaou, his particular report, and we did receive an interim report on him in regard to the gas prices. Could the Minister tell us: Will the finalized report be coming forward? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, I met with Dr. Nicolaou just the other day and his report is close to completion . He was still awaiting some final information from one of the large petroleum companies. It is at a stage though where I will be in a position in the very near future, hopefully, to brief my colleagues on the report.

We will naturally spend some time considering that report as a government but, in due course, it will be available to the public and it would be made available to the Opposition, but it's taken a considerable time. It's a very significant study and report, and it will be the subject of a good deal of government evaluation before we make a decision as to follow-up in respect to it. MR. G. DUCHARME: Now, talking about The Trade Practices Act, I guess the primary person who did most of the expertise work on it was Mr. Ian Anderson. I was wondering - have we had any claims? How is it going?

Have there been some people come forward to that to put in claims, etc., on The Trade Practices Act? HON. A. MACKLING: No, I'm not aware - there was one application by an anti-smoking group who wanted me to secure the approval of my colleagues to an inquiry in respect to the whole area of tobacco industry advertising . While that is a valuable concern, we didn't think it was appropriate for the inquiry route. Rather it would be more appropriate for government study and initiative on a broader field, including the Department of Health . There have been ongoing 2667

Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 discussions and concerns across the government generally in respect to those issues, so there was no pursuit of an inquiry in that instance . , That's the only one that I recall, other than the gas inquiry itself. MR. G. DUCHARME: Yes, another question that came after, there was a little bit of discussion last year, and it's going on and on and we're going back .to what the reason was for the introduction of the bill to protect the consumer on insurance . One of the major reasons was the Northern Union Insurance Company.

The Minister said at the time there was some up-Io­ date information available . I have not received it, but I would ask the Minister if he would now provide some type of information, because I know it's been probably three to four years since February of when this happened . I was wondering - has he got up-to-date information on where they stand and when anybody's going to receive anything? I believe it's Dunwoody . HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised that Dunwoody and Company are making quarterly reports to the court. and we could obtain copies of the reports .

I gather that they report on the monies that they've received and disbursed and the ongoing issues that are subject to litigation . MR. G. DUCHARME: The reason why I asked - and I guess it's from the industry itself - is there any hope at all for the agents? Most customers , unless they were involved in some claims. were probably reimbursed by the insurance agents for the time on risk that was left. Most agents who decided that they wanted to stay in business and keep their name, they generally picked up the difference in the premiums .

I was wondering - is there any chance or is there any possibility of any monies coming to these agents themselves? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised that Dunwoody has taken assignments from individuals and, should there be recovery , then the monies would be available to the agent . MR. G. DUCHARME: What is the length of time that these assignments are in order, not being illegal? HON.

A~ MACKLING: I understand that one of the difficulties that Dunwoody has in getting a clear confirmation as to the amounts that were owing to the company by agencies who had collected premiums and hadn't remitted to Northern Union but, in respect to the legal lifetime of the documents of assignment, they would be indefinite and would be subject to the common-law rules of action on them, I assume , which may have a statutory limitation. I don't know. MR. G. DUCHARME: Yes, I'm just going to go to one other item since Mr. McGill's here, and then he can go. I know he's a busy man. HON. A.

MACKLING: They're all busy though . MR. G. DUCHARME: I know they are, but I'm going to try - there's no sense me holding him up for one 2668 question, okay. My question is, and to clarify it, on The Fire Prevention Act, maybe he would know something in regard to - and we realize that 2 percent of the insurance premiums on property go into The Fire Prevention Act . · To the Minister, the balances seem to fluctuate and so it must be quite an active balance or active fund . ln'83, for instance , the balance is about $1.3 million; in'84, $2.2 million ; in'85, it was $1.7 million; and in '86, about $1.7 million.

I know that you've probably spent, in'83 to '86, about $8.9 million . Could you tell me where the funds go to? HON. A. MACKLING: The funds are used to finance the Fire Commissioner's Office, and also there was a specific and significant amount used in respect to development of the Fire College in Brandon . MR. G. DUCHARME: Could you tell me how much went to Brandon? HON. A. MACKLING: Staff here are not in a position to be precise in the amount, but it was $2 million or $3 million, I recall. I could get the exact figures, if you like . MR. G.

DUCHARME: Other than Brandon, what would be other things that it would go to? HON. A. MACKLING: The money goes to the Fire Commissioner's Office and I know that - I'm putting on my Labour Minister 's hat now because the Fire Commissioner's Office comes under that portfolio - they do spend money in respect to mutual aid districts , fire programs of various kinds and the financing of the office . MR. G. DUCHARME: Would it go to any fire prevention '• funds and things like that? HON. A. MACKLING: Sorry, I didn't bring that information with me, and staff here . . .. MR. G.

DUCHARME: To the Minister , what about the FRED system? Does it come into play at all with that particular fund? HON. A. MACKLING: There have been arguments advanced that the funds should be used to finance the FRED system; however, there are arguments that no system should be out there that does not have direct - both municipal participation, but some municipal funding . So that question remains unresolved. MR. G. DUCHARME: Would this be the pla::e· to ask what the FRED system would cost per month for the municipalities , for 55 holder ~ in municipalities? What it is per month? HON. A.

MACKLING: I wouldn't guess at the amount right now, quite frankly. As I say, that's under my other portfolio, but . . . MR. G. DUCHARME: But you would get that for me. Mr. McGill can leave as long as the Minister doesn't mind. c

Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 HON. A. MACKLING: No, that's fine, thank you. MR. G. DUCHARME: Just some general information, that it was also mentioned, I think , in the same report and it was discussed, and the Minister is probably getting a little tired of me mentioning the lemon law that I mentioned last year. I did ask some questions in the House and he did mention it in his opening remarks last year. I think the comments at the time by the Minister is whether there will be a chance to analyze the Ontario program.

This is the program that I covered quite extensively in my opening remarks in regard to the one in Ontario and the one in California, that it dealt mainly at that time with new veh icles. I know there have been cases in Canada in regard to new vehicles . The reason why I'm bringing it up again is because there was also the problem that probably falls under Consumer Affairs in regard to probably the safety of all automobiles when they're sold from one party to another. I know it was brought up to the Minister in charge of MPIC in rega rd to the Autopac write-off s, and he was working on that at the time.

There's also the other case of the private sales , not just the Autopac ones, but between one individual and another. Right now there's no requirement for safety inspections to be carried out when you sell from one individual to another. We know that sometimes when the provincial government calls in an automobile, if it's in one spouse's name, they'll just change it to the other spouse and avoid the safety check and just register it again.

It's a couple of years before they get caught up again. , There are quite a few automobiles out there that are unsafe and, when people come to register a vehicle, you know that they 're legally entitled to register a vehicle. I was wondering whether the Minister has had any chance to talk in regard to the whole concept about safety vehicles on the highways or whatever they are in regard to the Highways Minister or the Minister in charge of MPIC , because now , as of April , I think he 's respons ible for all safety vehicles.

I think it's something that's very, very important and I know it's not completely in his jurisdiction , but it is something that deals with consumers and it's something that we could probably control a little bit better than what we're doing. , HON. A. MACKLING: I thank the Honou rable Member 1.for those concerns. 1~ To deal more specifically with th e new car follow-up or arb itration in respect to complaints, that whole area , we are endeavoring to monitor the Ontario development which is developed by the Motor Vehicle Dealers' Association and is a voluntary system there .

It's not · legislated, mandated by legislation, but it is a two-year trial. We would rather it be shorter so that we could loo k at the results because I think tha t one would be generally convince d that sort of development makes , sense. You might say th at in the new home field , as a consumer matte r, the Home Builder s' Association have a warranty prog ram. Recently I pa rticipated at a : ceremony where we prese nted an item - the 10,000th new homeowner participant in that warranty program.

So I rea lly believe, and as I've indicated to th e industry, where they can do tho se thing s themselves and provide market satisfaction , customer satisfaction , that's eminently desirable. The government , on behalf of the public , should be intervening where it's necessary to intervene because industry has failed to look after the problems. We understand and we don 't know how fully fleshed out this program is yet , but the Honda Motor Corporation has indicate d that they are going to establish a warranty program that will provide protection for buyers of those automobiles .

We understand that will be set up in Manitoba as well as ot her parts of Canada. In respect to new motor vehicles , generally, I had a meeting with the Motor Vehicle Dealers' Association and indicated to them another consumer concern, and that was in requiring that the moto r vehicle dealers put the recommended sticker prices of the manufacturer s' recommended prices on the vehicle so that customers, when they look at new vehicles , will have an appreciation for what the manufacturers ' recommended list price is.

We feel that should be a matter of information that is available to the buying public without having to search elsewhere for that information. We've indicated, because those concerns were passed on by consumers, that we would like to see them do that without the necessity of compulsion and they certainly did not indicate opposition to it. In respect to the repair and return to the road of badly damaged vehicles , in respect to the Autopac write-offs , my colleague, John Bucklaschuk, has indicated that initiatives are being pursued in respect to that. My department has had some involvement with Mr.

Bucklaschuk in reviewing the appropriateness of the kind of intervention that 's necessary. I understand that should be coming forward this Session , whatever is necessary to strengthen the position of regulating the extended lifetime of any vehicle that has been initially written off by Autopac. So that area will still be something that will come forward to the Legislature . I think I'll leave it at that. MR.

G, DUCHARME: The reason why I mentioned about the used vehicles is because I notice that even dealers - and I've already mentioned private sales of private people , spouses to spouses, to avoid their cars being taken off the road. There 's the other problem . We know that salesmen with dealers who are selling cars as a private sale to avoid not passing a safety certificate, so what they'll do is they'll sell the vehicle privately from a salesman to another individual instead of selling it through the company. It's a concern of mine because I personally see them come in the office.

I personally see some of these automobiles that are on the road and people not realize what they 've gone through. I know that the Minister has commented on the MPIC . MPIC has an advantage because they'll be able to control them. They'll be able to control on the computers whethe r this vehicle was written off through the serial numbe rs, etc. , but whether they control it or not, ther e has to be some system. If they sell that vehicle to somebod y who is going to repair it and then that person turns arou nd and sells it privately right now, there isn 't any con trol over it. 2669

Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 That's what they 're really going to have to straighten out. Just some general information on fees, and I've gone through and checked some fees out over the last several years . It concerns me, the increase in fees. I know the Minister hasn 't been actively involved in the real estate business, so he hasn't had to register too many mortgages in the last few years , but in'82 and'83, for instance, they were $6, and in '85 and '86, you notice they're $16.00. Now it might not sound like much, but there's an increase of 167 percent.

In the register of land titles in the real property,'82 and '83 was $7;'85 and '86 , it was $17 - 143 percent. To incorporate with share capital, in '76 , it was $135; in 1985-86 now, it's $220, about 63 percent. To incorporate without share capital, in '76, it was $18; in 1985-86 , it's $50 - 178 percent. A licence or trust or loan corporation fee , in '76, it was $50 ; in 1985-86, it's $100 - 100 percent. Licence fees for underwriting brokerage investment, in '76, it was $350; 1986-87 is $750 for 114 percent.

Another one that I noticed this year - and it was quite alarming - was the amount of a securities licence, from '86, it was $100; this year, it's $300 and it's 300 percent. Now I know, by some of the estimates , that we do have to increase some of the fees. I was wondering why or when you were setting up or when you're reviewing - you said you were going to be reviewing some of your information - why we do not have a graduating increase in the type of fees that are on stream?

If they're the right fees now, why do we not now have a gradual increase on a year-to-year basis and determine the costs so that , all of a sudden - it might not sound like a lot, but when a staff person has maybe 20 people on staff or 10 people on staff , it's a small business and all of a sudden now he's looking at, instead of $1,000, a $3,000 bill announced, boom, in a short period of time, and he comes up with them in January. That's why I'm saying is that now, if we are going on stream , we do look at these types of fees that we not bring in some type of gradual increase every year. HON. A.

MACKLING: I agree with the honourable member that fee increases ought to be carried out or at least reviewed and , where necessary, the increases should be on a regular basis and not postponed such that, when an increase does take place , it' s a marked increase. I think that the idea of regular review and, where necessary, the more moderate increases makes eminent good sense. That's certainly what we will strive for as a department.

Within the department, there were areas where, although increases had taken place, there wasn't really a hard look at providing for a fee structure which really provided for reasonable compensation back to the taxpayers generally for the kind of particular services that were provided to an industry. So there have been significant increases in some areas such that we intend to try and recover a reasonable percentage. Now it won't be the same percentage in every instance of the cost of the operation.

For example, in securities, although the honourable member didn't mention securities, there were significant increases there because we felt that 2670 industry, while the public generally benefits from the fact that industry has available to it a financial securities mechanism that will check and determine the worth and make sure that securities issuing is done properly and reasonably , and therefore investor confidence will be maintained in the area, nevertheless it's a rather specialized area .

Those who use those services should be paying fees which really cover the bulk of the costs of the operation of that regulation. We've looked at that in respect to the broad cross section. Now in respect to consumer services on the other hand where it's a very broad service, we have relativ ely no fees . I don't believe that we charge people in respect to the general consumer area, except where they are licensed under a particular act, like the Direct Sellers and so on .

There again, we've looked at trying to make those costs meaningfu l so that at least we rec over our costs of operation of providing for those licences. We take a pragmatic approach, but I agree that we should be looking at them on a regular basis. MR. G. DUCHARME: Just to get into some other tax increases, because we're dealing with both Consumer and Corporate, there's the corporation capital tax.

The banks - we'll be accused of being friends with the banks, but fortunately I am on the side to deal with both this particular day - for instance, in'81 -82, we had an .8 percent increase; and in'82-83, it was 2 percent; in '86- 87, 3 percent. So we are looking at people saying that some of them aren't paying their shares - a 275 percent increase. Then we go to the corporation capital tax for the loans and trust companies. Theirs in'82-83 was .6 percent;'85-86 was .9 percent; '87-88 was 3 percent, which over 1982 , five years, is a 500 percent increase, just for the record, and bringing it on.

You can make your comments but I'm just saying that it concerns me that how long do we keep doing this? I've tried to pick on both sides. These increases , and the tax increases especially, when you see those types of numbers , are alarming. HON. A. MACKLING: Well, the tax field is certainly not under my responsibility as Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. I commented about fees , and I think fees should be reasonably structured to recover the basic costs of the service in most instances.

But in respect to any tax, if you have a 1 percent tax and you change it to 2 percent , i t still may be a very small tax but that's a 100 percent increase. I agree that the percen tage change can look staggering, and yet the practical effect may not be all that arduous in a particular industry. But that is not under my portfolio. I'm not Minister of Finance . MR. G. DUCHARME: Philosophically , we could be going on like that for a couple hours, so we won't. HON. A. MACKLING: That's right. MR. G. DUCHARME: I have just some other increases that probably bother me if you're talking about consumers.

We talked about the gas prices and I know, when the doctor comes back , I hope he reveals information that shows that when they did have the

Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 bill that they have in Nova Scotia - and I brought it up during the Trade Practices comments , and I made those comments . They've had that bill for a long length of time where they still have continually shown that through control that the Minister has talked of, through regulations - you don 't want to control them completely. In that particular province , if you look at the gas prices , they have stayed the highest retail margin in Canada consistently . I know right now in Manitoba , we've got the third highest tax percentage p~ p price in Canada.

Yet we're the third least profitable retail margin in Canada . I just made some inquiries to try and find out where we were , because it seems that we're getting stories from all over the place on who is to blame in this particular game . I'm not trying to jump back and forth to the doctor's information . I hope in his report that he covers some of these inaccuracies that we seem to be getting . HON. A. MACKLING: Well , I think that the honourable member is right .

There is a lot of misunderstanding about the problems that we face of what I think is an intransigence on the part of the industry to accept the fact that when the basic commodity that the industry relies upon to make its finished product - it's a very basic element - that if your ingredients , the raw product, costs you considerably fess, then the end price should reflect that reduction . Crude oil prices dropped dramat ically. The retail prices did not reflect that . The industry argued, well , there was a through-put period, a long period .

They argued 90 days or better but when the gasoline was going up in value, they argued the other way, that they could increase the prices much more quickly because, you know, the through-put time was much less. I had meetings with the major petroleum companies and I have to indicate that the information that was exchanged was very candid .

Sometimes I could say that there was almost a little bit of hostility in the air in the exchange I had with some petroleum companies because I indicated to them my concern that there wasn't the degree of competition that I felt might exist between the major oil companies , that they seemed to universally reflect a high price in Manitoba . That didn 't sit very well with some of the representatives from the oil companies and we had to agree to disagree . I'm hopeful and quite confident that the report that Or.

Nicofaou brings forward will shed a good deaf of light on that relationship between the crude price changes and the retail pump price changes and how they should be working in harmony but haven 't been in parts of Canada where competition is fess by virtue of the circumstances of the industry . MR. G. DUCHARME: I hope that the report by the docto r will probably answer a lot of concerns. To the Minister, maybe next time he wants to go and talk to the oil people , they weren't as candid with me, so maybe we'll go together or something next time .

I also go on to something else that was brought up on the floor and , unfortunately , was in rega rd to the Consumer Corporation of Canada . Maybe that was that unique serv ice that was threatening to be lost and maybe he's got some update for me. I'll go on record as disappointed . I know the feds cut back on their 2671 fund ing for that and that doesn't make it good that they cut it back. I'm convinced that it's a very important consumer need. I know it saves your particular people a lot of work because I know, even in your report, you mentioned your workings with them.

So if you hadn 't worked along with them and hadn 't

part icipated a lot with them , you probably wouldn't have mentioned it in your report. We know that it's gone on record that it helps 400-500 Manitobans monthly , telling the consumer in unbiased , objective answers to questions they face every day. I did do some phoning to find out why the feds had cut off some of the expenditures. The only answer I could get was that they had a national office to handle - they do support a national office. I did check with Alberta and Alberta contributes $20,000 and a free office; Ontario is $50,000 a year; Saskatchewan is $10 ,000 and a free office .

I think the Minister was down to contributing $10,000; they needed $12,000 .00. I don't know whether he did maybe help them out with their office space . I think he was ment ioning it at the time, or there was a rumour that you were going to help them out with some office space . HON. A. MACKLING: In respect to the grant to the Consumers ' Association and its continuance , our grant has not been reduced ; as a matter of fact , it has increased , but not to the extent that they would like . The increase will go from $10 ,000 to, I think, $10 ,400 , in round figures.

In respect to the work they do, I'm on record as being very pleased with the kind of work that body has been able to do over the years , It's particularly helpful in the consumer product evaluation , because I think it's something that really becomes a little awkward for a government department to be saying Maytag is good and Whirlpool is no good, or our results indicate that Maytag is a better kind of washing machine to get than Westinghouse, or whatever.

That sort of thing is an area where it's better, I think, that government isn't making that evaluation , that there be people who are volunteers , disinterested in any commercial or monitoring aspects. Funding is an extremely difficult matter for our government .

The honourable member appreciates the agonizing that has taken place in respect to monies for every department , whether it be in Highways, or in Health, or in Education , we are not delighted by the fact that members of the Opposit ion can ask questions in respect to government areas where, because of tight funding, institutions have to look more carefully at their budgets and they tend to blame the Provincial Government . If the honourable member , and I'm sure you have, looked at the dollars in this department, they are very lean .

We have, in particular areas, cut here and cut there in order to satisfy the overall government requests to find ways to do more with less dollars . When I said that in my remarks, that is not exaggeration . There just isn't additional money from which we can draw to facilitate the Consumers ' Association and to go to my colleagues and make a case for additional funds where the Federal Government has withdrawn , i s doubly difficult. I indicated my concern , I gave suggestions to the Consumers ' Association as to where alternative sources

T~esday, 2 June, 1987 of funding may be realized . They are pursuing them and I wish them every success. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, D. Scott: The Member for Riel. Mf:1. G. DUCliARMI,:: I agree with the Minister that they dq provide that national voice on consumer issues and they provide it here where you do have to have that other · voice either being the person who is manufacturing the product and/or the government who is m~king regulations. I think that is probably why they are a unique group and, if I was the Minister who's on record ., I and my !!taff wouldn't want to lose such a group.

You certainly could use them when you do get into those circumstances of wanting other opinions. Mr. Minister , you also mentioned in your Estimates of '86, and: again you mentioned it today, you're not completely convinced - and this is the travel industry - that what they have come up with is completely to your liking. I have to agree on that particular matter because, when l brought it up in the House and you mentioned last year, the Unitour Vacations was forced to declare bankruptcy resulting in some consumers losing money they have invested .

You had mentioned that your department IA(as concerned about future bankruptcies and was investigating how the government can help Manitoba consumers . You also mentioned discussions had taken place with the Association of Canadian Travel Agencies. You did mention today in your opening remarks that these discussions have taken place and I imagine they're ongoing . You're going to keep these discussions and probably try to keep a handle on what 's happening , considering the latest type of bankruptcy that's occurred. I know that's one of the Esprit Vacations Ltd .

I think these ones we've mentioned, along witti the type of bankrupicies , the Strancl Holidays ones, the travel failure of Sun Flights, Skylark in'82, affecting probably thousands and thousands of travellers has probably brought a big concern that, Mr. Minister, I think it's probably time to establi .sh some type of bill re tn:1vel like they do in Ont1:1rio and British Columbia, the same type of maybe some type of regulation dealing with this industry , the same as we deal with the insurance and the same as we deal with the real estate, the same as we deal with securities .

I, like you, do not want to overregulate these people , but there is the scare out in the streets and you do get a lot of people who don't understand that they can buy an extra insurance to cover them . Maybe it's not explained properly to them . I know that in Ontario they've had it ior probably 10 or 12 years and, if there aren't going to be any.claims, they've paid out proqably in the last 12 years something close to $12 million in claims which is probably closE! to $1 million a. year to people who probably invested a lot of money to take a trip. As you realize, it's very expensive to travel.

In Ontario, delving out the money does not even count the less publicized functions in closing down of agencies in financial trouble before the problem occurs, or the volunteer closures that probably resulted in Ontario as a result of discussions with their travel registrar . The travel registrar probably could work as he's done in those provinces more closely with the 2672 police fraud squads to clamp down on the criminal activities in the trave .I industry and there are some .

The job would also be to scrutinize financial statements, especially to look for those to be underfunded and living off the consumer payments, the cash flow that really isn't theirs. The cash flow that a lot of realtors if they didn't put in trust accounts could probably live off and some do, but also, in this particular case, trust Ounds are not required . Maybe you do have to have the regulation to find out that this party when they are in trouble have to come up with new financing to get back in the black, maybe produce a letter of financial guarantee or the alternative is to close up.

I'm not here to close up anybody. Most travel agents out there are excellent, however, they are competing with some that maybe are not what they should be and not following some rules . I just think it's about time we came up with some responsible legislation like we do in the other industries. I know your staff does handle consumer complaints, but they should also handle the investigation, hanclle the complaints, the powers to inspect, to go right in and inspect the licensed ones, check the credibility of their advertising .

I know that you do check some complaints in advertising , certify that their money held in trust is in trust - they should be bonded - be able to impose penalties. We . do not have those polA(ers now and to some travel agents out there, they'll say, where's this guy coming from, I thought he's one to help us out. Well, that's exactly what it's always been . You help people out by having these regulations and not to impose any restrictions, buy everybody who goes in there, and our job is to probab!y protect the consumer, and I think that's one thing that we should be doing.

I reviewed the bill that has been put out , reviewed quite a few bills that have been put out, especially the one in Ontario and it's quite an extensive list of regulations. I think it goes from (

a) to (

m) and I'm not going to take the time today to read it all out, and I know that the Minister has had his staff look at these types of regulations that are necessary. I don't know, you did mention a little bit, that you were concerned, are they on a stand-by, or what will be the way of you monitoring, that some of these that organize charters and stuff like this , are doing it and doing it right. HON. A.

MACKLING: To deal with the question the critic poses at the very end, we will be talking with the industry and asking them to confirm the use that's being made of the insurance provisions and satisfy ourselves that the industry is fulfilling the mandate that they had to look after the industry because they know that if the industry is embarrassed by any repetition of failure, where consumers lose, the industry as a whole suffers. They 're conscious of that fact, and lliam impressed by a concern of industry spokespersons that they do want to ensure that the public is protected .

I think there is still too much, not indifference, but lack of concern to the point where they put themselves out to ensure that consumers have been fully briefed as to the availability of insurance and that they satisfy themselves that the insurance is reasonably affordable. They advise me that it is quite likely that rather _than one agency, as is now presently available to provide the insurance,

Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 there may be a second agency or a third that will be available , and that would make the costs of the insurance protection much more competitive. It appears that may be a part of the concern as to why individual travellers haven't been taking out the insurance that otherwise would be available.

We are disappointed - I think I speak for everyone, generally - that the concept of a national insurance funding was not pursued, because it would have meant that, for a relatively small amount, a token amount on each person's tr1vel arrangement, it would provide a very effective national program, and that fell apart for the reasons I've described earlier . We will continue to raise our concerns nationally at Ministers ' meetings, that we should give consideration to a national program being developed .

But in respect to the Manitoba scene, we will continue to monitor that and, if the industry doesn't attend to the problems and exercise the obligation that's theirs, then we will consider regulating. I might say that I find the honourable member 's arguments very hard to rebut. There's no question , but these people are taking on a position of trust . They take people's money and they take their fond dreams and expectations for a break from their otherwise activity, whatever that is. Where that dream is frustrated and the money lost, it's a traumatic experience in the lives of people.

It is a burden and these people, generally speaking, appreciate the fact that they're in an industry where there are growing numbers of people who invest considerable sums in maybe once-in-a-lifetime trips or trips for special and unique occasions . It's a fairly lucrative business for the industry . They appreciate, I believe, the concern we have as government . We have assured them that we are not going to regulate at the present time, but they have no assurance that we're not going to regulate if we feel that the self­ insurance provisions that they've developed are not satisfactory .

So we will be monitoring that, and I say to the honourable member, while he's a Conservative, he speaks in this area like a New Democrat .- (lnterjection)­ No, I'm being very serious - that we're for enterprise - private enterprise. We're for the human initiative that's necessary in private enterprise, but it has to be responsible where they're in a position of trust - there is an even greater responsibility - and where it's necessary that you regulate that responsibility, and I agree with that. MR. G. DUCHARME: I'm not trying to claim to be a New Democrat . . . HON. A.

MACKLING: You're a closet socialist, that's what you are. MR. G. DUCHARME: No, but there are times when you have to compete fairly and I'm saying everybody should abide by those rules. There's nothing wrong with someone making money and that's what the whole game is about . All these people aren't there because they love travel so much that they don't make any money in it. And you're right, you mentioned about the amount of money someone puts down - you can go 2673 to China or Japan - $15,000 .00. You can imagine it's quite a cash flow out of some of these, and I'm saying that we have to protect that cash flow.

A lot of those people don't understand when they go to a shop what they're signing or what they're doing. If someone's competing out in the marketplace and they can cut off the insurance fee of $500 for the trip, they 'll say, hey, I'm saving you $500, and we know that happens . All I'm saying is that most people don't understand and the ones who are trying, the good free enterpriser, who 's competing in the marketplace and doing a good job, he's not competing in the same rules . I should have actually asked the question when Mr.

McGill was here and I didn 't, but I mentioned to the Minister, I think I wrote him about a month ago in regard to the Laurentian Mutual Insurance Company in regard to whether there'll be some act amended to permit them to do business in Manitoba. You mentioned that you expected a bill to be coming forward so that they could operate with a provincial licence and not with a federal licence. Will we see this, this Session? HON. A. MACKLING: It's certainly my intention to address that problem .

I'm hopeful still that, depending on the speed with which the system will reflect our good intentions, we'll still be able to deal with that this Session. I'm just giving my Deputy Minister, kind of like the shot - I haven't seen a bill with a draft in it. MR. G. DUCHARME: I have nothing to gain to keep pushing it. I don't sell any of this type of insurance, so that 's not why I'm pushing it. HON. A. MACKLING: No. MR. G. DUCHARME: It's just that it came to me from there and apparently we are the only province that has not agreed to allowing more .

Anybody who'd looked at the statements in the last - I think it had even shown that they were probably one of the 10 top companies in Canada. You know, they're not coming here without good background and good . . .. I also did talk on the drug. We're on the separate side of the issue on that one, which normally we are . I don't agree with a lot of the comments that were made on both sides. I don't agree with the resolution that it even be brought forward to the House. But we've all had our kick at the cat on that one, on Bill 22.

I know you made your comments and you mentioned that you were appearing at the Senate hearings. There will be quite a few people probably appearing at the Senate hearings and they'll get another chance to kick it around . We both have talked on the Sunday closing by-law , so I know that's in our jurisdiction. I won't make any comments today on that. Mr. Minister, the Main Estimates contain very little changes. So we'll do that at the end, and I've got some questions just on the annual report and we'll be just about finished . I guess it would be on page 8 of the annual report.

On page 8, I was reading through it again and it has Consumers' Bureau; it has mentioned about "Bedding,

Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 Upholstered and Stuffed Articles " and "Hearing Aid Act " - I'm using those examples . When was the last time - and I noticed these are some of the duties that you 'll be going through a lot of these acts - a study was made to see whether all the acts are up-to -date or are no longer required , because things have changed over the years? Are a lot of them still required , like , say, the bedding , uphol stered and stuffed articles? HON. A..

MACKLING: I am given to understand , in that area , there is a divided constitutional responsibility and role, and the Federal Governmen t plays part of the role and we play another part of the role to protect the consumers in respect to products that involve those areas . If we could get agreement by one jur isdiction , it would be delegated with all of the responsibility , one or the other . Either the Federal Government or our~elves could take on the complete responsibility , but it's still necessary to have this legislation . MR. G.

DUCHARME: I was under the understanding that the Federal Government were also involved In this . I wasn't aware that we Still required both to do that. HON. A. MACKLING: It's my understanding , yes . MR. G. DUCHARME: The Hearing Aid Act and Regulat ions? HON. A. MACKLING: The director of the Consumers' Bureau is the chairperson of that board . The Department of Health has more direct involvement with the ongoing monitoring of the hearing aid use and adequacy than does the Consumer Affairs Department, but dealers are licensed and required to meet the standards that are provided in that act .

It's st ill a necessary act . At one stage , I recall that there were very, very flagrant abuses in this area and as a result of the widespread public concern that something be done to regulate the abuses that were taking place , particular of seniors , that this legislation was developed. One could argue that now the industry is functioning pretty well , maybe the regulation could be set aside, but should that happen , perhaps the same sort of problems would emanate, so I think that the legislation still plays a very useful role . MR. G.

DUCHARME: And what type of complaints do you get from the embalmers and funeral directors? HON. A. MACKI.ING: That's a deadly question . Again , it's an area where we do get consumer concerns in respect to the quality of the services prov ided, the type of service that is provided and whether or not the ,person is qual ified to provide the service in Manitoba . Again, it's an area where , if there wasn't regulation, the likelihood of more people being vict imized by unscrupulous business people would be more likely. And it doesn 't cost us very much. MR. G.

DUCHARME: Page 9 of the same report just to keep going , mentions supply and consumer information to buyers and sellers, borrowers and lenders . Do.you also supply consumers information to librar ies, high schools , etc .? · HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, we do supply pamphlet materials to libraries and other educational facilities . MR. G. DUCHARME: Also mentioned in the same, it's the next one , is providing a forum for hearing , investigat ing and mediation of consumer complaints . Could the Min ister tell me when you are provid ing a forum , what do you do in this regard? HON. A.

MACKLING: While staff are just readyi ng a response for that, let me just confirm that in respect to the earlier question . It was advised there were 110,000 brochures distr ibuted to schools , consumer groups and organizations , municipal offices , and for displays and other presentations .

In respect to the Consumer Affairs Branch role in respect to complaints , a complaint is made to the branch ; a consumer officer will .respond to the complaint ; and in most instances, if there is - there may be a lack of unde rstanding on the part of the complainant - if there is substance to the complaint , we'll communicate with the other party involved , the business involved, and seek to solve the complaint through mediation . In most instances , that is the extent of the involvement.

Where the complaint Involves something that could not be resolved by mediation , then of course the consumer officer may recommend to the indiv idual that they seek relief through the cour ts, through engag ing a lawyer if it's someth ing that 's unresolvable by , mediation or otherwise. If it's a frivolous complaint they 'll be so advised as well.

There are instances where , i f the complaint gives rise to the determin ation by the Consumer Affairs officer that there is a very serious public wrong involved , then the director and others will review it and we have sent detailed information to the Attorney-General 's Department and the Winnipeg Police where necessary or the RCMP, if it's a matter in rural Manitoba , for action on the part of the public authority , the appropriate pol ice author ity. MR. G.

DUCHARME: In regard to the last , on functions of Consumers ' Bureau , speak ing to consumer business and service organizations , how do you go about telling service organizations that you'll come and talk to them, or does it come from the members that all of a sudden , out of the air, say we'd like to talk to you, or do you let these people know that you will go out and speak to their groups , and speak to the service groups, etc .? HON, A.

MACKLING: The branch has an outreach program and Individual consumers become aware of the role of the Consumer Affairs Department in government, and become concerned to share the kind of information they have received with others and ask whether or not it's possible for t#iat information to be shared in a broader base and then also the department maintains a volunteer program where consumer volunteers assist the department in providing consumer information and outreach In respect to the general consumer program . MR. G.

DUCHARME: I know I did ment ion already about the Canadian Consumers ' Associat ion, and I know you 've mention it in your information sheet , the 2674

Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 Jhird paragraph on the left column. If they do discontinue , which I hop e they don't, will you have to probably provide more information to libraries, or would you say that role that they're providing will not be one that you'll rea lly get involved in because of what the Minister had said earlier , that they act as an independent body? Will they create some expense to you if they get out? HON. A. MACKLING: That is hard to quant ify, and I know the Consumers' Association believes that there would be a significant impact on our department, should they close their doors.

They may or may not be assessing the situa tio n with precision . It's hard to determi ne. . There is an area that would be a problem to us, and '. that is the product monitoring. I think what we would ·have to do is, through some additional involvement of volunteers because we do have our own volunteer program, look to address tha t gap in what otherwise we would be handling. But we're not expecting them ;to shut down. We're hopeful that they will find alterna tive jfunding. 1 MR. G.

DUCHARME: I hope they don't either . t In complaints, the second paragraph , 1985-86 home .ren ovator complaints, and I noticed in newspapers - ; I didn't bother bringing them - you see such headlines as, "Seniors Bilked ." I know there was one in April , a bad one. There's been mention in the report of an ' incre ase, and I had asked last year about penal bonds and whether the amounts have been changed , but I '. guess the ones we're having the problems with don't · even bother having penal bonds. I noticed the increase in the seniors , and maybe it's because there 's more money available for them to do that. .

Does that consumers ' group go out and speak to ' the senior citizen groups that are in the areas , because they seem to have the groups. They're a type of an area that easily - they're always looking for people to come out and speak to them. I'm wondering whether you people, when you hear about these types of vandals around taking the seniors to task on home renovations, · do you go out and speak to them? HON. A.

MACKLING: Yes, we have with us Karen Garney, who heads up that volunteer program, and that : is the major area of communication priority with senior . consumers, and a good deal of effort is carried out in communicating with them. I've also indicated my concerns publicly and the media has , I think , done a reasonable job of again , reporting on those concerns. In the home renovation : field, the member's quite correct.

The news stories reflect cases that we have referred to the police where . there was unscrupulous conduct on the part of people who were taking advantage of seniors, falsifying · condi ti ons of homes and selling proposed renov ations , at exo rbitant fees. As a result of the investigations by police , charges were laid in a n umb er of cases . So we ' are very concerned about the abuse in that area and ha ve been very anxious to communicate those con cerns. In the last year, during Crime Prevention Month, there were consumer presentations made to the Age and Opportunity Centr e, the St.

Vital Senior Centre, the Selkirk Avenue Senior Centre , the Smith Street Senior Centre, Fred Douglas Lodge , the Main Street Senior Centre and - I can 't read that last line - but anyway a very active concern and involvement there . We have asked the RCMP in the rura l area to be particu larly sensitive to the con cerns we have out there. MR. G. DUCHARME : The reason why I asked the question is because I know the City of Winnipeg has a couple special officers that all they do is work with the seniors, and we can all appreciate that a lot of them will not come forward . They're scared to come forward.

I know , even on police matters , they're very nervous in coming forward, and I'm glad you 've made us aware that we do go out and talk to them because that's basically all it takes. HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised that we work closely with the two City of Winnipeg police officers that the honourable member has referred to, and we're also involved in the Officer Training Program so that the new officers are well-versed in the interest and concerns of the Consumers ' Bureau. MR. G.

DUCHARME: I'd just like to mention, in the next paragraph, it mentions decreases and complaints in regard to home furnishing , mail order s, etc ., while increase is recorded in automobiles, travel agents, credit cards. Just to mention that I didn't read this till after I started my questions on the trav el and the automobiles, so I guess we're on the same wavelength there that they are increasing .

Page 11, the last three lines, starting with "As well," under " Speaking Engagement " - " ... staff training for Credi t Unions, Caisse Populaires and car dealerships ." - what do you mean by that, that you have participated in staff training? HON. A. MACKLING: We make it known and invite ourselves to participate in staff training where credit unions , caisse populaires and car dealerships have training programs for staff, so that we can give them information, understanding and knowledge of The Consumer Protection Act and how that can be employed and what the rights are of consumers in respect to that act. MR. G.

DUCHARME: Page 12, maybe tell us, Item 1, you r Speaking Engagements , what's your staff that you have who goes out on speaking engagements , do they combine staff, or what is the staff who goes out and speaks to these people? HON. A. MACKLING: I'm advised that we have 11 officers who can be used and are called upon to provide and fulfill speaking engagement s and functions. There are 12 volunteers who also are able and they are willing to participate in speaking engagements when called upon. MR. G. DUCHARME: On the same page , what do you mean by " Carry over from previous year"? Maybe you cou ld explain .

You say 542, 697 . What do you mean by that? 2675

Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 HON. A. MACK LING: They are just long-standing , out st anding files wher e, say, it was a home renovatio n or some thing and t here was an ongoing argument about it, it wou ld remain an open file, while there was in the view of the Consu mers ' Bureau officer who had the file, a possibility of doing something further with it, rather than close it out and some of these things take a long time to resolve . I'm given to understand that since there are a significant number, it 's not that there's a lot of long old files but this is at the cut-off period.

These files are still outstanding , so they may be relatively short term . MR. G. DUCHARME : So really, then, the numbers from one year to the other really don 't mean anything. Okay. I don 't mean they're not problems but they don't- how long do we keep on file complaints outstanding? How long do we keep them generally? HON. A. MACKLING : There can be instances where the time when the file is opened and before resolution is upwards to two years. MR. G. DUCHARME: We have a car dealer that you hear nothing but complaints on but, as I appreciate, your bond and your dealers are through the Motor Vehicle Branch.

Is it not? You don't have anything to do with that at the present time? Would you get in touch with the dealers - I'm talking about the Motor Vehicle Branch - and explain to them we've got all these complaints on this individual over a long period of time? HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, we would get involved. MR. G. DUCHARME: When also it says at the last one, before Charges, Outside Special Activities, what does that mean? HON. A.

MACKLING: In most instances, it may be that the department, while not directly involved, is indirectly involved in assisting another department in a comparable interest or issue, or it may be something that the Deputy Minister has asked for to pursue an interest that may not be directly with the Bureau but departmentally significant. MR. G. DUCHARME: The last bit of information with regard to reported , on page 23, you mention that your revenue - and I guess this is why you're increasing your fees - your revenues are up about 9 .4 but your expenditures are up 18.2. I didn't compare it to last year's.

Is that normal? HON. A. MACKLING: The honourable member is referring to the total Consumer and Corporate Affairs legislation and profit development? MR. G. DUCHARME: Yes, that's correct. HON. A. MACKLING: The revenue there is up. MR. G. DUCHARME: It was at $20 million and HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, it's up about . MR. G. DUCHARME: 9.4 fro m the year, 18 to 20 and then - I'm looking at the stat ement and it hasn 't changed that much, and I'm saying that the first two lines re revenue and expenditures are up. There 's quite a significant difference, and I was wondering what it was. HON. A.

MACKLING: I'm given to un derstand that the increase there would larg ely be - well there are some small increases , volume or small fee increases. The bulk of it would be the fire insurance tax , the corporate fees and the securities fee changes -(Interjection) - the expenditures? The expenditures side is main ly the election costs that fall under the departments involved. MR. G. DUCHARME: Under departmental total s, I looked it over and it didn't jive at first.

I guess it's a typographical error and you put brackets where there shouldn 't be but, if you look over unde r variance, the 57.4, that would not be an underexpenditure. That would be an overexpenditure, would it not, Publi c Utilities Board? You've gone from 702 to 759. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, that's right. The brackets shouldn 't be there . MR. G. DUCHARME: Because you total it up, it's 70.1 . Okay. HON. A. MACKLING: But all that , in respec t to the Public Utility Board , is fully recoverable from the parties . MR. G. DUCHARME: Then the only question I have that finishes - to go through if you want to go.

Can we just pass them as - just one question and then we can just pass the whole thing through. I'm talking about under the operating expenditures and such. On page 38 , the only real difference is Other Expenditures are going from $299 ,000 to $464 ,000.00 . That's the only large difference from the budget from one year to the other . Is this due to the . . HON. A. MACKLING: Is this Corpo rate Affair s you 're looking at or what? MR. G. DUCHARME: Consumer and Corporate Affairs (

V) on page 38 , right at the bottom on the left hand side , $464 ,100.00. HON. A. MACKLING: This is in the Supplementary Information? MR. G. DUCHARME: No, it's in the Main Estimates under Corporate Affairs. If you go, it's $464 ,100, and they're at $299,000 ... MR. CHAIRMAN: A saving of almost one hundred­ and-some thousand dollars. HON. A. MACKLING : That's in the system developm ent with the new automated system. MR. CHAIRMAN : You spent money last year, and you didn 't spend it this year, is that it? 2676

Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 HON. A. MACKLING: That's right. MR. CHAIRMAN: Administration and Finance 1.(

a) to 1.(d). inclusive, were each read and passed. Resolution No. 35: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $639,700 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs, Administration and Finance, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1988 - pass. Appropriation No . 2. Consumer Affairs, 2.(

a) Salaries-pass; 2.(

b) Other Expenditures-pass; 2.(

c) Grants-pass. Resolution No. 36: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $798,200 for the Consumer and Corpo rate Affairs, Consumer Affairs, for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March, 1988- pass . Appropriation No. 3. Corporate Affairs, 3.(

a) Corporat ions Branch:

(1) Salaries-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures-pass. Resolution No. 37: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $3,006,500 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs for the fiscal year ending the 31st day of March , 1988 - pass . I neglected to read (

b) and (c). (

b) Salaries $229,900; Other Expenditures $37 ,200 - pass. (

c) Manitoba Securities Commission : Salaries - pass; Other Expenditures-pass. (

d) Public Utilities Board:

(1) Salaries -pass;

(2) Other Expenditures-pass. Thank you very much . SUPPLY - URBAN AFFAIRS MR. CH AIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee of Supply , please come to order. We've been considering the Budget Estimates of the Department of Urban Affairs. We are now on Item No. 3.(

a) Urban Policy Co­ ordination, Salaries; 3.(

b) Other Expenditures; 3.(c)

(1) Canada-Manitoba Winnipeg Core Area Agreement: Payments to Other Implementing Jurisdictions . 3.(c)

(2) Payments to Other Provincial Departments - the Member for Charleswood. MR. J. ERNST: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When we left off yesterday afternoon , we were discussing a number of points that were contained in the White Paper on changes to The City of Winnipeg Ac t. We had dealt with a number of the planning issues . The next issue that I'd like to deal with, Mr. Chairman , is the stateme nt , " The province should provid e leadership in the management of environmental and resource-related issues." I couldn't concur, Mr. Chairman, more than that.

What's been happening with respect, and particularly with respect to Shoal Lake , is that there hasn't been any leadership shown by the Prov inc ial Government. There hasn' t been any leadership shown by this Minister with respect to that issue. The issue of Winnipeg's water supply , of the danger th at' s been presented by potential developmen ts in the area of Shoa l Lake over the past five or six years , has been a very great cloud hanging over the citizens of this city. The potential cost to the city for water treatment in the area of $100 ,000 , capital cost , Mr.

Chairman, still won't give the City of Winnipeg a reasonable water supply even after tre atment , not the same as they've enjoyed for the last 50, 60 or 70 years . Mr. Chairman , in 1919 , when the City of Winnipeg's water supply opened at Shoal Lake and started flow ing to the City of Win nipeg , the citizens of Winnipeg since that time have enjoyed probably water that's the envy of every major city in North Americ a. Now, Mr.

Chairman, this Minist er has not shown the kind of leadership that should be shown, and I'm surprised that he would put in the White Pape r a statement , such as " The province should provide leadership in the management of environmental and resource-related issues ," because they haven't indicat ed their support for that kind of situation. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said "support " because they have, but they haven't shown the kind of leadership that's necessary to get the issue resolved. Five or six years, Mr. Chairman, things have been hanging ove r the heads of the City of Winnip eg.

No action has res ulted . We've had , as I indicated yesterday , blackmail threat s or blackmail-type threats by the sol icitor for the band ; we've had gold mines proposed for the area of Shoal Lake ; we 've had other resource extraction operations planned and/or threatened and/or actually put into place. All of those things have a serious effect on the water supply of the City of Winnipeg, and yet there seems to be no action taking place . Mr.

Chairman, The Environment Act that was introduced the other day is proclaimed to be the be all and the end all of environment acts for Canada, since the flagship of env ironment acts for this country. Yet that act contained no reference to the water supp ly of the City of Winnipeg , no reference to the fact that it could be protected , forever and in perpetuity and at no cost to the citizens of Winnipeg or the citizens of Manitoba or indeed the citizens of the rest of this country . Mr.

Chairman , our leader has suggested that one option to deal with the socio- econom ic problems of the band, Band No. 40 at Shoal Lake, given that they 've had their source of income cut back because of mercury poisoning in the lake, is to move the band. There are many, many lakes surrounding Manitoba . There are many, many opportunities in an environment almost identical to that existing presently at Shoal Lake .

The opportunity is there for the Province of Manitoba to say, notwithstanding the fact that they are technically residents of the Province of Ontario, the proposal that they have for cottage lots is in the Province of Manitoba. I think the Minister could well have taken a leadersh ip role and gone to the Federa l Government, to the Ontario Government and to the city, for that matt er, and said, look , we can get together.

We can try and move the band to a more appro priate location that may be better served in terms of cotta gin g opportunities and certa inly not as detrimental to the water supply of the City of Winnipeg . So, Mr. Chairman , I th ink that could well have happened . Well, we'v e had the threat of othe r issue s besides the cottage-lot development in Shoal Lake. We've had gold mines; we 've had I believe a Tantalum mine over the past few years and , I think , Mr. Chairman , some leader ship could well have been shown there again by 2677

Tuesday, 2 June, 1987 meeting with the Province of Ontario, to sit down with the m and to say, look, we have a problem. We need to protect this most valuable resource. People fight wars in othe r parts of the world, Mr. Chairman, over water supplies. Here we have the finest, cleanest, purest water supplies anywhere to be found in the world, piped directly to the City of Winnipeg and yet we don't seem to be able to come to any kind of a resolution to protect that water supply from its potential pollution. Mr. Chairman, last year during Estimates , we had a very lengthy discussion about this particular issue.

At that time, the Minister indicated the province had a number of positions they had proposed, they were going to advance. Well, we've heard nothing over that period of time, Mr. Chairman , in almost a year. We've had no indication publicly at least what those positions are; what the province has been able to do; what it proposes to do and it has shown no leadership in this respect. Certainly, Mr. Chairman, we've got to do something and we've got to do it quickly . There needs to be a resolution to this matter. We cannot continue on.

We cannot have the water supply of the City of Winnipeg continuously under threat, because one of these days it's just going to happen and then there will be, Mr. Chairman, all kinds of havoc wreaked upon the citizens of the city. We collectively, as legislators, whether it be municipal, provincial or federal, will have to shoulder the blame for inaction and lack of leadership that has been shown up to this point.

So I would hope that the Minister, by making this statement in his White Paper, is going to carry that through and that there will be indeed leadership in the management of environmental and resource-related issues, leadership that has not, certainly with respect to the City of Winnipeg, Mr. Chairman, been evident over the past few years. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. G. DOER: Mr. Chairman, I find the remarks of the hono