VOL . l PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT NO. 52 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. ~ 6:00 P.M. THURSDAY, DECEMBER 2, 1982

December 2, 1982 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Sp eaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER (Ru ss ell) : MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Tape 2984 Order, pleas e! ORAL QUESTIONS PK - 1 The hon. Leader of the Opposition . Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) was promoted as making a statement today on his trip to South CaroQina. Is the hon. gentleman going to make a statement? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Development. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, the hon. House Leader (Mr.

Marshall) 1 I understand 1made a statement to this House yesterday which basically has laid down the position as it is at the moment, and I think that is quite sufficient. MR. NEARY: Oh,very good! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR . WARREN: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Goudie). First let me go on record as saying that personally I am quite pleased that the minister did siow us histrue colours in speaking on behalf of the Native people of this Province publicly on radio and television the night before last.

In view of the statements that the minister made to the media, could the minister advise the hon. House if he has received any representation from the Native groups of this Province asking for direct funding of Native money from Ottawa to come directly from Ottawa to the Native Association instead of through the Provincial Government? MR. SPEAKER: The Minister or Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. 6278

December 2, 1982 Tape 2984 PK - 2 MR. GOUDIE: No, Mr. Speaker, there has not been any formal request to that effect, although in discussions with groups representing the community of Conne River,which receives funding under one agreement, and with individuals from other communities in Labrador under the second agreement, there has been the suggestion that perhaps funding should go straight to the communities. But as it exist now under the two agreements in place,the federal/provincial agreerrents, there is no mechanism by which to bring in that type of a measure. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, in view of the minister's statement, and to quote him from the paper, he said, "If that is what the Native people in this Province wants,to deal directly with Ottawa, then I as one person would have no great problem with that." By the minister's corning out and rnakinq such a statement publicly, is the minister now convinced,after the representation and letters that he has received from the different Native organizations in this Province,that his department has not been administering the Native funds properly to the Native people?

MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: No, Mr. Speaker, there is no suggestion of that type of allegation in the answers that I gave to reporters over the last couple of days, 6279

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 2985 so - l MR. GOUDIE: butrather the statements that I made were based on discussions with two gentlemen representing the community of Conne River about a month and a half ago, and they were Mr. Gerry Wetzell and Mr. Calvin White,who more correctly represented the Federation of Newfoundland Indians at that time. and also in discussions last week with a delegation of three who were representing the Labrador Inuit Association, one of them being the present President of the association, Fran Williams.

And the expression of interest on their part that they would prefer to deal directly with Ottawa in terms of providing programmes directly to the Native peoples above and beyond the regular provincial government programmes already in place. But -there certainly was meant to be no admission on my part that the provincial government was not effective or not acting properly in terms of administering the agreements which are in place. As a matter of fact , we think we have.

But disputes which exist now come as a result of frustration on the part of some Native groups who, in my opinion, want to implement programme:, which if not the programmes themselves being outside the conditions of the agreement,then the numbers of dollars associated with these programmes indeed wou~d be outside. MR. WARREN: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : for Torngat Mountains. MR.

WARREN: Supplementary, the hon. member Can the minister advise if there was a submission made by one of the Native groups to Cabinet in mid-June and 1 furthermore, can the minister advise us if he received a copy of a letter that was written by one of the Native groups to the federal Minister of Indian Affairs on July 9th, 1981, suggesting to the Minister of Indian Affairs that they wished for the federal government to take over 100 per cent of the involvement of the Native funds? Can 6280

December 2,1982 Tape No. 2985 so -2 MR.WARREN: the minister confirm whether he knows anyt~ing about this letter or anything about a proposal or submission to the Cabinet in June? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR.GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker, I do not recall specifically a piece of correspondence of that date or of that nature. But I do know in discussions with representatives of the community of Conne River, especially 6281

December 2, 1982 Tape 2986 NM - 1 MR. GOUDIE: on one occasion in company with my colleague, the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Andrews), who is the member for that part of the Province, whereby suggestions were made, and I am under the clear impression that the community of Conne River would much rather deal directly with Ottawa on all matters relating to Native people,as they define them, than they would deal with the provincial government, MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr.

Speaker, the minister said publicly a few days ago that if he received a request he would be taking his concerns to Cabinet, hoping to convince Cabinet to give the Natives this authority to deal directly with Ottawa. I would like to ask the minister how far is the minister prepare·d to go in Cabinet to convince his colleagues that this is the proper approach,for the Native people to deal directly through Ottawa? How far will the minister go in Cabinet? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE : Mr.

Speaker, again I think I should point out that in the statements that I made to the media on this particular matter, I indicated that I had received verbal requests from two groups in the Province, specifically Conne River, and a general discussion with representatives from the LIA 1that they would prefer to deal directly with Ottawa. To this point in time there has been no written request or written proposal from either group to me formally, but I understand that there are written requests coming in.

In relation to the question how far would I go in Cabinet to convince my colleagues, as I have said to the media, I do not know how much convincing 6282

December 2, 1982 Tape 2986 NM - 2 MR . GOUDIE: would be necessary when and if this issue is brought to Cabinet . First of all I have to hav e a formal request from the groups involved, and,secondly, I ca n only speculate on what the discussion might be . It is conceivable,! sup pose,that there would not need to be any convincing at all, it might be just a matter of approving . I really pannot speculate on that . What I have said is that if this is the ~-1ay the Native peoples want to go, I am prepared to support them in that and bring their concerns to Cabinet as a whole, and see what happens from there .

I cannot really speculate on what the decision might be . MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hen . member for Torngat Mounta ins . MR . WARREN : Mr . Speaker, I am sure that in a very short time the minister will be receiving requests from the Native groups . I will assure him of that . 6283

December 2,1982 Tape No. 2987 ah-1 MR.WARREN: I think then that will show really how far the minister will go. I wish to direct my next question , Mr.Speaker, to the Minister of the Environment (Mr.Andrews), the Minister of the Environment who also represents a native groups in this Province. Does he agree with th. , Ainister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr.Goudie) that the Native people in this Province should deal directly with Ottawa instead of with the Province? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The han. Minister of the Environment. MR.ANDREWS: Mr.

Speaker, by rights I should not be answering this question,but if the House is interested in my personal opinion I do believe that there is room for some dialogue now between the N~tive peoples in Newfoundland and the federal government and ourselves. MR.TULK: Mr.Speaker. MR.SPEAKER: The han. member for Fogo. MR.TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the acting Premier, the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall). I think he is the corridor. I wonder if we could get him? He is on his way in, Mr.Speaker. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.TULK: Mr.

Speaker, a couple of days ago I asked the acting Premier , the President of the Council, if the Burin fish plant was a viable operation and I think I also pointed out that I had been told that the Burin fish plant was making money. I have also received several calls in the last couple of days saying that in fact the plant was doing well. I would like to ask the minister if this is in fact the truth and if he has inves~igated this matter now to find out if indeed it is true? Is the 6284

December 2,1982 Tape No . 2987 ah -2 MR .TULK: Burin fish plant,in other words,a viable economic operation? And it is as a matter of fact true that che Burin £ish plant is the only fish plant making money or perhaps the one making the most money of any of the Fishery Products plants? MR .NEARY : Hear, hear! A good question . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon . Preside nt of the Council . MR .MARSHALL: Mr . Speaker, I can say that this government regards the community of Burin, the town of Burin and the fishery of Burin to be extremely viable .

It has been viable for decades now and we anticipate that it will be viable in the years to come . With respect to the specific question that the hon . gentleman has asked with respect co specific information with respect to Fishery Products'affairs,I can tell him 6285

December 2, 1982 Tape 2988 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: that the entire matter of Fishery Products' affairs are the subject of high level discussions between the federal government and the provincial government, C.D.C., Fishery Products and the banking interest concerned and the entire fishery Products matter is a matter, as I have indicated, of great concern. So to the specific question on the Burin plant, I am not privy to Fishery Products day-to-day financial records myself so I cannot specifically answer the question.

But I will say to the hon. gentleman that this government regards certainly the community of Burin and Burin itself to be, as I say, a very viable entity based on the fishery and we know it will continue for many, many years and decades to come. MR. TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): MR. TULK: The hon. the member for Fogo. If the minister does not have the answer to that question, perhaps he can answer another that is as important to the workers in Burin. Fishery Products have said that they will employ 350 of the Burin workers in the plant at Marystown.

I would like to ask the minister if he has investigated that statement to see if it is indeed true. Would he also perhaps tell the House if there are any employees presently laid off in Burin and if those employees have to be rehired before anybody is rehired from the Burin acr-ea? Would he answer that, please? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Cou)'lc,il,, M;IS, 1'11\RSM:J:,L :_, Mr. Speaker, the entixe ~.itw- ation with respect to the ~nswer to the hon. ~ember's 6286

December 2, i982 Ta,pe 2988 ;EC ~ 2 MR. MARSHALL: question is that from Fishery Products, as he now has indicated, 350 people would be hired in Marystown if the plans which Fishery Products have enunciated actually go into effect. Now, whether or not the plans of Fishery Products actually go into effect anywhere in this Province is going to depend upon the assessment of the affairs of Fishery Products itself, and our looking into the situation in all of its detail, and it is subject, as I say, to very high level negotiations at the present time.

What the han. gentleman is asking me now is with respect to statements made by Fishery Products and, Mr. Speaker, I am not responsible for the statements made by Fishery Products, and what transpires with Fishery Produc.ts is a matter which will have to be determined and which will be determined as a result of input which this government will have into that decision. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the member for Fogo. MR.

TULK: I would expect that the minister, knowing for the past couple of weeks that this plant is going to close-·when he heard it in the media, at least he knew it then-would have started by now to investigate and have some of the answers to these questions, or at least have done some preliminary investigation. I am told, Mr. Speaker, that those people who have seniority in the Burin plant cannot transfer that seniority to the Marystown plant. 6287

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 2989 MJ - l MR. B. TULK: In other words, Mr. Speaker, if they do indeed get hired in Marystown they will be at the same level as somebody hired only a year and there are people in Burin,as the minister probably knows- I hope he knows­ who have thirty years of seniority in the Burin plant.

I would like to ask the minister if he has investigated that to find our if indeed the people who are in the Burin plant at high levels of seniorit~ have a great number of years of seniority, can trans~~r that seniority to the Marystown plant or if indeed they do get hired,which is highly unlikely 1 I believe,in a great many cases, if they are starting off at day one? MR. WM. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The han. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The Opposition in addressing itself to some very concernina times in this Province seems to be prepared to ask questions based on rumours.

I would like to know what other rumours that the hon. gentleman has heard.· I cannot respond to that, Mr. Speaker, except to sav and repeat again that the entire matter of Fishery Products' involvement is a matter of very high level discussion at the present time and what he is talking about now is really a hypothetical case because what he is doinq is acceptingthe decision of Fishery Products 1 or the enunciated decision of Fishery Products last weekend,as a fait accompli and that is not a fait accompli, Mr.

Speaker, because,as I repeat again,the entire affairs of Fishery Products are the subject of these negotiations. MR. T~JLK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: If those rumours are on the go,and the minister has no knowledge of what is happening, what else 62BB

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 2989 MJ - 2 MR. B. TULK: can you do but accept what has happened as a fait accompli? But let me ask him another question. The other day I asked him in the House,and I would have hoped that by now he would have had some answer, to this question: I asked him in the House if indeed the expansion that had to go on at Marystown was going to cost more than it would to carry out the renovations and repairs to Burin. I understand - again I would ask the minister if this is true - I understand that Burin technically speaking can process to a much greater degree then can be done at Marystown.

Now I would ask him the question again~ Has he looked into the matter of whether indeed it will cost ···•ore to carry out the necessary expansion at r-1arystown than it will to carry out the renovations and repairs that are needed in Burin? Has he done that? MR. WM. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I can say that obviously that is one of the factors that will be looked into and is being looked into in the course of these particular high level discussions and negotiations that are going on with respect to this particular matter. MR.

TULK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: The minister is basing all of his answers on the fact that there are ongoing negotiations, ongoing meetinqs. T would like to ask him who is involved in these negotiations and where are they taking place? The Minister of Fisheries (Mr. J. Morgan) is not in the Province - I presume he is over in Europe somewhere, it could be Asia 6289

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 2990 SD - 1 MR. TULK: I do not know,but he is out of the Province -- would he tell us what people are involved in those negotiations, where they are taking place and just how high levcJ they are,or are they in the minister's mind? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : MR. MARSHALL: The hon. President of the Council. I have already indicated that, Mr. Speaker. From the line of questioning the hon. member is giving, I can say thank God for the people in Newfoundlan <:c the official critic of the Opposition is not involved in it. Who is involved with these negotiations?

I have already indicated that: The federal government, the provincial government, the Canadian Development Corporation,which has a large concern in Fishery Products, the Bank of Nova Scotia which has financed Fishery Products(and all of the aqencies of this government which are available and which through the Fisheries Department and the Department of Development, can give and lend any assistance with respect to this matter are being employed and utilized. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. My hon. colleague is asking a very valid question.

The minister keeps repeating in answer to all the questions from my colleague that high level discussions are taking place. Now we know the Premier is out of the Province, we know that the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) is out of the Province, so who is representing the provincial government in these negotiations and these discussions that are taking place on the high level that the hon. gentleman is talking about? MR. SPEAKER: MR. MAR SHAL L: The hon. President of the Council.

These negotiations are being co-ordinated through the Department of Fisheries, the Department of Finance and the Department of Development in this Province anc . permanent officials are involved in this and ministers are involved in it. Every effort is being made 6290

December 2, 1982 Tape No . 2990 so - 2 MR . MARSHALL : with respect to this matter as in every other matter by the Government of thi s Provi nce to se cure the fishery and the other indu strial endeavours in this Provi nce . MR . NEARY: Supplementary, Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (Russell) : Supplementary, the hon . Leade r of the Opposition . MR . NEARY: Mr . Speaker, these are just weas el words . ~'lould the hon. gentleman identify the ministers so we can direct questions in the absence of the Premier and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr . Morgan)? We would like to direct questions to the ministers involved .

Would the hon . gentl eman identify the ministers who are involved in these high leve l discussions? MR . SPEAKER : MR. t-IARSHALL : The hon . President of the Council . Mr . Speaker, I already have if the hon . gentleman , you know, had cared to lis ten . The Pr em ier himselc is involved and I suopose it is the subject of discussion between him and Mr . Rompkey when they were over in Europe . But I know he has been in contact with him about that . I said the Department of Fisheries , the Departme nt of Development, the Department of Finance have been involved with it and : 6291

December 2, 1982 Tape 2991 APB - l MR. MARSHALL: do not need to translate surely to the hon. member which ministers are in charge of those departments. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) MR. LUSH: The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs, and I want to follow a line of questioning that I was following about a week ago when we were talking about the reduction in the amount paid by the government with tax incentive grants, the reduction by five cents.

Now, of course, that councils throughout · Newfoundland have been notified of the government's intention, and I expect the minister has been in touch with the councils, I wonder if the minister can indicate how the councils throughout · the Province are going to absorb this loss, how they are going to take on this financial burden, Mr. Speaker, whether there are going to be layoffs by the councils, whether there is going to be a reduction in services to municipalities throughout Newfoundland, or whether there is going to be an increase in taxes by the municipal councils to absorb this loss? MR. SPEAKER: The hon.

Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, all municipal councils are autonamous bodies, they do not necessarily have to come to me to advise me as to how they prepare their budgets or what difficulties they have. They will come to me perhaps sometime during the year if they find that they are in financial difficulties, but they do not consult me previous to that. MR. YOUNG: Right on, my dear. Right on. MR. SPEAKER: MR. LUSH: The hon. member for Terra Nova. I think the minister was on 6292 ~-· -· ~ i J

December 2, 1982, Tape 2991, Page 2 -- apb MR. LUSH: television recently commenting on this particular tax decrease, or the amount of money that the government would be decreasing their contribution by, and the minister indicated that municipal councils would have to increase their taxes. Does the minister still stand by that statement? MR. SPEAKER(Russell): The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I do not think I said that. What I did say was that the municipalities would have to cut back in their expenditures the same as every department in government. MR. NEARY: MRS. NEWHOOK: MR.

NEARY: MRS. NEWHOOK: increase their taxes. MR. NEARY: MR. YOUNG: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. LUSH: Or increase taxes. I said, if necessary. Oh! I see. If necessary they might have to That is the same thing, Let the lady answer the question. Oh, oh! Order, please! The hon. the member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, we are just getting the real indication now how this is going to affect the municipalities. We have all read and heard about the City of St.

John's going to lose $1 million as a result of this government measure, and we know the minister's view on it now, that municipalities will have to increase taxes. That is the procedure being anticipated by the government. Just a very brief question to the minister; how many councils throughout Newfoundland are affected by this particular measure? The minister indicated, I think, a couple of days ago that there are two systems of financing councils. We have this one, the tax incentive grant, and there is another one. So how many councils would be affected by this particular measure to 6293

December 2, 1982, Tape 2991, Page 3 -- apb MR. LUSH: decrease the government's amount with respect to the tax incentive grants? How many councils throughout Newfoundland, how many municipalities affected by this measure? 6294

December 2, 1982 Tape 2992 NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS . NEWHOOK : Mr. Speaker, there would be about 90 municipalities out of about 310, and these are municipalities which are now receiving the tax incentive grant. This is a new grant that was implemented in 1980 and I would like to say, Mr. Speaker, that previous to 1980 we had no municipality in our Province that received more than $150,000 a year. And at that time the total cost to government was something like $11 million. Now in 1980 it was increased by 148 per cent, our grants to municipalities.

And the cost today in grants and subsidies is something over $50 million, $53 million to date, Sir, in 1982. MR. YOUNG: MR. SPEAKER: MR. LUSH: Right on~ Right on~ The hon. member for Terra Nova. The minister has indicated that we have 310 municipalities in the Province, 90 of which are funded by the tax incentive grant, that system, Could the minister indicate how the remaining 220 are funded? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I just said that there would be 90 affected by the cut.

I did not say, but I will say now, that all municipalities, the whole 310 of them, receive the general assistance grant. grant that all municipalaties receive. Now that is the major It is only these 90 which have the property tax in place in their municipalities that receive this tax incentive grant, and this is over and in addition to any other grants that they receive. They receive a road mileage grant, they receive a number of grants. As we say 1we have a cost-shared programme 6295

De~ember 2, 1982 Tape 2992 NM- 2 MRS . NEWHOOK: in regard to roads, we have a cost share .d programme , 60/4.0 with fire equipment, and \ve have quite a number of other grants that municipalities receive, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER {Russell) : MR. LIJSH : The hon . member for Terra Nova . With respect, Mr .

Speaker, to the general municipal assistance grant , with respect to that grant can the minister indicate whether or not there have been any reductions in that grant, whether councils will lose any monies, whether municipalities throughout 'Newfoundland will lose any monies under that partic ular grant, the general municipal assistance grant? t-1.R . SPEAKER: The hon . Minister of Municipal Affairs . MRS . NEWHOOK: Mr . Speaker, 6296

December 2, 1982 Tape 2993 PK - 1 MRS. NEWHOOK: that grant has not been changed by one cent. It increases,as a matter of fact,according to these population and the round mileage and other things. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. YOUNG : Give it up, 'Tom'! MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary • Mr.

Speaker, it was my understanding that several councils receiving funding under the General Municipal Assistance g~an~ and there is a proportion of that grant, without getting into the technicalities which the minister is aware of,called the short-fall grant, and there are several councils throughout Newfoundland, maybe as many as 50 per cent of them, have received notice from the government that they have been overpaid, that they have received repayments ranging from $500 to about $12,000, and they have been requested to pay this back to the government. So, Mr.

Speaker, can the minister indicate what happened here that possibly 50 per cent of the councils throughout Newfoundland have received statements from the government saying that they have to pay back to the Department of Municipal Affairs amounts ranging from $500 to $12,000? MR. SPEAKER: Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: MR. NEARY: MR. WARREN: MRS. NEWHOOK: it with with a yes or no. MR. YOUNG: Do not answer it- MR. SPEAKER: 6297 The hon. Minister of Municipal Mr. Speaker Yes or no? True or false? Mr. Speaker, I cannot answer That is right. That is right. The bon. member for Terra Nova.

December 2, 1982 Tape 2993 PK - 2 MR. TULK: Will she answer with shades of grey? MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, the question again: I will just ask the minister if she is aware that that had happened, that her department has sent out statements to as many as, as probably as high as 50 per cent of the councils throughout Newfoundland saying that they owe money to the government under this municipal assistance grant or more specifically the short-fall grant? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The bon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, there has been some notices sent out but nothing like 50. per cent.

I do not knew, there might be twenty or so where mistakes !1ave been made 1 where miscalculationG have been made with regard to the short-fall grants, and where they have been miscalculated, where the municipalities have been overpaid 1 then that has to be taken back. And there are other instances, Mr. Speaker, where they have been underpaid and we are giving them additional money. MR. YOUNG: Right on~ Right on! SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, I understand that the criteria used in arriving at the amount of money that any council should receive is basically under three compotents 1population 6298

December 2, 1982 Tape 2994 EC - l MR. LUSH: being one, road mileage being another, social assistance being another. In other words, there are some of the same components used here that are used in deciding the equalization and the EPF grant, and it looks like the Province made a mistake in the same way that the federal government did. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. LUSH: So I am wondering now whether the Department of Municipal Affairs is going to show the same magnanimity as shown by the federal government by forgiving these overpayments to councils? MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Municipal Affairs . MRS.

NEWHOOK: The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, these bills that we sent out to these municipalities were sent on the advice of our Auditor General, Sir. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final question, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, I am rather intrigued by the hon. the minister's answer that if necessary they will have to increase their taxes. Now, out of these eighty or ninety councils, surely the minister has seen the balance sheets the minister has seen the budge~for the year.

Could the minister tell us now how many of these councils will,in fact, have to increase their taxes as a result of the government cutting back assistance to these municipalities? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs. 6299

December 2, ~982 Tape 2994 EC - 2 MRS. NEWHOOK: Mr. Speaker, I received in my basket on my desk today the first, number one, budget from the 310 municipalities . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, please! The time for the Question Period has expired. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, pursuant to the Statutes And Subordinate Legislation Act, I table copies of the Gazette between 18 June 1982 and 26 November 1982. MR. YOUNG: ll!r. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. YOUNG: I present the annual report of the Public Service Commission for 1981 - 1982. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: MR, NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Opposition. MR. NEARY: Oh, oh! Order, please! 0 0 0 fl!r. Speaker. The hon. the Leader of the I move under Standing Order 23 that the regular order of business of this House be suspended for today to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely, the partial close-down of the Bowaters mill in Corner Brook and the resulting layoffs of some 700 direct employees and the loss of another 1,300 indirect jobs.

If you want a debate now, let us have it. 6300

oe ·cernber 2, 1982 Tape 2994 EC - 3 MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr. Speaker, all I can do is draw to Your Honour's attention that the same matter was brought up yesterday and it_ would appear that the reasoning Your Honour 111ent through yesterday 1'-'0Uld be applicable today. 6301

December 2,1982 Tape No. 2995 ah-1 MR.OTTENHEIMER: I believe also that in the Standing Orders there is something to the effect that the same topic may not be brought up twice in the same session. There is a Standing Order to that effect. MR.SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! The motion made under Standing Order 23 by the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Nearv) ··ras indeed the same motion that was made yesterday. All hon. members are aware it is not necessarily the urgency of the matter but the urgency of debate for that matter.

As I pointed out yesterday,there is a place on the Order Paper under Orders of the Day or the Address in Reply should government wish to call that. And I have to say that this matter is not of such urgency at this time to allow me to permit a debate. ORDERS OF THE Dl\Y SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Motion the bon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Remove The Anomalies And Errors In The Statute Law, (No.2)" carried. (Bill No. 77) On motion, Bill No. 77 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR.OTTENHEIMER: Motion 4.

Motion the hon. the Minis .ter of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Insurance Companies Tax Act," carried. (Bill No. 79) On motion, Bill No. 79 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR.OTTENHEIMER: Motion 5. 6302

December 2,1982 Tape No. 2995 ah-2 Motion the hon. the Minister of Public Works and Services to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Department Of Puhlic Works And Services Act,l973," carried. (Bill No. ".'0) On motion, Bill No 78 read a first time, ordered read a second time on toi tor row. MR.OTTENHEIMER: Motion 6. 6303

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 2996 SD - 1 Motion, the hon. the Minister of Municipal Affairs to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act," carried. (Bill No. 81). On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The City Of St. John's Act," read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow by leave. Motion, the hon. Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Retail Sales Tax Act, 1978," (No. 2), carried. (Bill No. 83) On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Retail Sales Tax Act, 1978," (No. 2), read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow by leave.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act, 1978," (No. 3), carried. (Bill No. 84) On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Tobacco Tax Act, 1978," (No. 3), read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow by leave. Motion, the hon. the Minister of. Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Co-Operative Societies Act," carried. (Bill No. 82). On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Co-Operative Societies Act," read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow by leave.

Motion, the hon. the Minister of Development to introduce a bill, "An Act To Revise The Law Respecting Innkeepers," carried. (Bill No. 80). On motion, a bill, "An Act To Revise The Law Respecting Innkeepers," read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow by leave. Motion, the hon. the Minister of of Health to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend the Pharmaceutical Association Act," carried. (Bill No. 76). 6304

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 299!5 SD -2 on motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Pharmaceutical Association Act," read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow by leave. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act," carried. (Bill No. 64). On motion, a bill, "An Act To Amend The Criminal Injuries Compensation Act," read a first time ordered read a second time on tomorrow by leave. Motion, the hon. the Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act To Permit The Continuance In The Province Of Carino Company Limited," carried. (Bill No. 85). 6305

December 2, 1982, Tape 2997, Page 1 -- apb A bill, "An Act To Permit The Continuance Of Carino Company Limited", read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. (Bill No.85). MR. OTTENHEIMER: Motion 2. On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions pertaining to the imposition of a tax on insurance premiums, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR. CHAIRMAN(Aylward) : Order, please! Motion 2, a ·resolution concerning Bill No. 74.

RESOLUTION "That it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Insurance Premi um s Tax Act, 1978." MR. CHAIRMAN: Opposition. MR. NEARY: The hon. the Leader of the Corning events cast their shadows before them. Your Honour almost made a slip that time that down the road will b~ so true, when he said, 'The bon. minister' . MR. CHAIRMAN: (Dr. Collins) was up. MR. NEARY: I thought the Minister of Finance There is an old saying in Newfoundland, Mr. Chairman, that is being repeated more often these days than probably ever before.

And after listening to the bills, after listening to what we are forced to debate in this House in the way of legislation, it would make no wonder that people are repeating over and overagain every day that a Tory government was never any good. MR. TULK: Tory times are hard times. MR. NEARY: Tory times are hard times, and that a Tory government was never any good. 6306

December 2, 1982, Tape 2997, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: Now, Mr. Chairman, I want the message to go out from this House that the government two days in a row refused to debate the Bowaters situat ion . Th egovernmnet refused to allow a debate yesterday and they refused to allow a debate today on the Bowaters situation . They have refused to debate the crisis in the fishery, they have .refused to debate the high unemployment amongst young people in this Province, and the statistic s will be released today by the Newfoundland and Labrador Youth Advisory Council . MR . SIMMS : MR . NEARY : MR . SIMMS : MR .

NEARY : No, they will not . They will. Tomorrow. Well, tomorrow . Mr . Chairman, they called me yesterday . They are coming to see me this afternoon at 5:30 to give us the statistics that they told me '1-!0Uld knock your eyeballs out . They are devastating, 6307

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 2998 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: the statistics are devastating. The government have refused to debate the economy and the financial mess that they have gotten this Province in. So is it any wonder that people are saying that a Tory government was never any good? Is it any wonder that people are saying that Tory times are hard times? Just listen, Mr. Chairman.

The government calls the order of business in this House and the government will not debate the state of the economy, they will not debate what is happening in the fishing industry, the mining industry, the forest industry and the pulp and paper industry in this Province, and they will not discuss unemployment. But here is what they are forcing us to debate, just listen to the likes of this, Mr. Chairman:

An Act To Amend The Law Society Act - now, that is important -

An Act To Amend The Prisons Act - that gets number one priority over a debate on the economy. MR. G. WARREN: Over Corner Brook. MR. NEARY: Over Corner Brook, over Burin, over the closing of the fish plant in Burin.

An Act To Amend The Prisons Act,

An Act To Amend The Wild Life Act,

An Act To Amend The Livestock Act,

An Act To Repeal The Fur Farms Act. MR. W. CALLAN: The Wild Life Act, will that control the ministers and keep them on the job? MR. NEARY: Well, maybe we will need more legislation on prisons and wild life if they keep going the way they are going. - and

An Act To Revise The Law Respecting Innkeepers. Now, these are all heavy items, Mr. Chairman. These are typical of the topics that the government is forcing us to discuss in this House while the economy is crumbling down around their ears. They want to talk about, they want to amend the Prisons Act and they want to amend the Innkeepers Act and the Wild Life Act. And the House is closing tomorrow, as I understand it. I think the government should keep the 6308

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 2998 ~1J -2 MR. S. NEARY: House open until Christmas Eve. It is up to the government to kee'9 the House ooen, .Mr. Chairman. MR. T. RIDEOUT: Nere you a party to an argument to let your colleagues go to Ottawa? Tell the tt:uth boy. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we are a party to nothing. It is up to the government to keep the House open. MR. RIDEOUT: If you do a deal, do it like a man. MR. NE.~Y: Mr.

Chairman, it is up to the government to keep the Bouse open, it is up to the government to call the order of business in the House.and r would suggest that the House be kept open until Christmas Eve, if necessary,to debate these urgent matters. Now, Mr. Chairman, I do not blame ·the government for avoiding debating these matters in the House because they are embarrassing to the governm~nt.

The Bowaters situation is a source of embarrassment to this government, I \vant to set the record straight on a misleading statement that was made in this House yesterday, designed to dec.eive the members of the House and people of this Province,that had to do with our raising the matter last Friday. I want to set the record straight and I want to lay on the table of this House - MR. G. TOBIN: Do not you be caught out on the West Coast. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Oh, Mr. Chairman. If I were the hon. gentleman I would not be caught out there or in Burin either according to the messages, 6309

December 2, 1982 Tape 2999 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: according to the signals that are corning from the hon. gentleman's district - MR. RIDEOUT: MR. NEARY: He will be out in Burin with all his colours flying. Mr. Chairman, listen to this, his is a quote from the tapes of Bowaters press conference in Corner Brook yesterday, December 1st., 1982- MR. CALLAN: Never to be elected again. MR. NEARY: - as transcribed by the city of Corner Brook, and this is a gentleman by the name of Jones who is a CBC reporter, putting a question to the President and General Manager of Bowaters.

Jones: "One other question, the government is talking about some proposal on the table in South Carolina. Are you familiar with these proposals and if so are any of them acceptable to you?" Mr. Clarke, the President and General Manager of Bowaters, Mr. Clarke says: "There were no proposals." That was his reply, an actual tape. There were no proposals. And Jones says, the CBC reporter, "You are not aware of any?" And Clarke said, "No." MR. WARREN: Say that again. Read that again. MR. RIDEOUT: Who said there were any? MR. TULK: Who said? MR. RIDEOUT: We never. MR. TULK: He did. MR.

NEARY: The statement that the - MR. WARREN: Read Hansard. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman departed from his statement yesterday and made wild and irresponsible accusations. Now if anybody should apologize to the people 6310

December 2, 1982 Tape 2999 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: of this Province for giving deceitful information, for political trickery, and political games, the hon. gentleman should be the one to apologize to the people of Corner Brook. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, please! .1!-[R. NEARY : Mr . Chairman, in addition to that let me give the House some additional information. On the meet~ng that, took place between the government and Bowaters on November 18th., over two weeks ago- MR. WARREN: Fifteen days ago. MR. NEARY: -over two weeks ago, the Minister of Education (Ms.

Verge),who represents one of the Humber districts was in attendance at that meeting. There were three people present representing the government, the Premier, the Minister of Education representing the Humber districtJ and the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power), the member for Ferryland. The three of them were present. And, Mr. Chairman, did they do anything? When they were given this information,did they do anything? MR. TULK: MR. WINDSOR: furor you caused. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. NEARY: No. They did not cause the kind of Hear, hear! Twelve days later the Minister of Development (Mr.

Windsor), the Minister of Education, and the Minister of Forestry hit the panic button and they took off for South Carolina. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Untrue. Untrue. 6 311

December 2, 1982 Tape 2999 NM - 3 MR. NEARY : That is true. MR. WINDSOR: Lies: Lies! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I ask you to ask the hon. gentleman to withdraw that, withdraw 'lies'. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The hon. member has not called the hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) a liar. 6312

December 2, 1982 Tape 3000 PK - 1 AN HON. MEMBER: That is right. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : I understand it, if the hon. member is called a liar - MR.NEARY: You cannot say indirectly, Mr. Chai:rman, what you cannot say directly. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. NEARY: Lies is the same thing. And I ask Your Honour - MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Anyway, Mr. Chairman, if I cannot get a ruling we have set a new precedent in this House. So we will just watch what will happen now. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! SOME HONl. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! Order, please!

If the hon. Leader of the Opposition does not agree with the ruling of the Chair, there is a procedure by which he can appeal it. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Chairman, I have too many more ,important things to do right now. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: The hon. Minister of Development (Mr. Windsor) and two other ministers panicked and took off for South Carolina. MR. WINDSOR: Not true. · MR. NEARY: But let me tell this House, Mr. Chairman, that in addition - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Can I have silence, Mr. Chairman?

I would like to see the rules enforced for a change in this House. 6313

December 2, 1982 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: Tape 3000 Order, please! Oh, oh! Yes 1 for a change. Hear, hear! PK - 2 You have an bon. gentleman over there barking, he is not in his seat, Mr. Chair,nan. MR. ·CHAIRMAN: There are bon. gentlemen on both sides barking. I wish to remind all bon. members that while any speaker is on his feet that they are to obey the rules of the House and the bon. member is permitted to be heard in silence. MR. NEARY : DR. COLLINS: MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: The bon. Leader of the Opposition. Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. Mr. Chairman, a point of order. A point of order, the bon. Mr.Chairman, I think it is a well recognized rule in parliamentary procedure that when Your Honour,whether he be the Speaker or the Chairman of Committees 1 is giving a ruling or otherwise addressing the House,all bon. members have to take their seat. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! DR. COLLINS: The bon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) stood throughout the ruling Your Honour just made and I would like Your Honour to call it to his attention for future reference. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR. YOUNG: on it. MR. CHAIRMAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR.

CHAIRMAN: That is not a point of order, There should be a ruling made To the point of order - Oh, oh! Order, please! 6314

December 2, 1982 Tape 3000 PK -3 MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): To the,point of order which was raised by the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), there is an understanding in the rules of this House that when the Speaker or the Chairman of Committees is giving a ruling on a point of order that all members sit,·and I wish to bru1g it to all members'attention once again. MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN : MR. NEARY: Thank you, f-ir. Chairman. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. Now, Mr.

Chairman, ip addition to those ministers that were present when the meeting took place between Bowaters and the government, three representatives from South Carolina, from Bowaters were there at that meeting on Novemb.er 18. \~hy did not the hon. gentleman put his proposal for the thirty· day moratorium to them then when they were in this Province? The fact of the matter is there were no proposals. The government did not lift a finger. They were shopL~g, Mr.

Chairman, that Bowaters would hold their press conference, as they told the Premier they were going to do, and then the government would come out and express shock, and attack Bowaters. They were hoping that the House would be closed, 6315

·~ December 2, 1982 Tape 3001 EC - 1 MR. NEARY: but when the matter was exposed on Friday past they hit the panic button. Mr. Chairman, what we want now is not little political games and political trickery from the minister. Mayor Hutchings put it in its proper perspective today when he said the politicians should stop playing games with the Corner Brook situation. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! Order! MR. NEARY: I was talking to Mayor Hutchings before he made that statement, in case the hon. gentleman is not aware of it. MR. CHAIRMAN: elapsed. MR. WARREN: MR.

CHAIRMAN: Mountains. Order, please! The hon. member's time has Shall the resolution carry? Mr. Chairman. The hon. the member for Torngat MR •. WARREN: I will begin, Mr. Chairman, by asking again for the protection of the Chair while I am speaking for my ten minutes. Mr. Chairman, \'le have a bill trying to be passed in this hon. House for increasing taxes. We have said on this side time and time again that we are not in favour of increasin<1 taxes, we are not going to vote for it and as well He conde1TU1 the government for bringing it in. My hon. colleague from Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush) this afternoon asked several questions of the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mrs.Newhook) concerning taxes that are levied on some ninety municipalities in this Province. 6316

December 2, 1982 Tape 3001 EC -2 MR. WAIU\EN: Now, Mr. Chairman , I am sure there are five or six hon. members L~ this House who have served on town couneils \'lithin the Province. In fact, the hon. the member for Carbonear (Mr. Peach) is presently the Mayor of the Town of Carbonear and a member of this House. Mr. Chairman, I am sure that the h0n. member must have a lot of difficulty sitting on the government side in this House knowing that there a:re measures brought in by this government. Asking the town councils to increase their taxes, and here he is, the mayor of a town, \vho has to pass this along to his constituents. 6317

December 2, 1982 Ta pe 3002 NM - l MR. WARREN: The hon. member is wearinq two hats and I am sure it must be very, very difficult. I must say that I would not like to be in his position, because it is very, very difficult being in this han. House defending the government, which he is part of, and then going back to the Town of Carbonear and having to say, "Look, you have to bring in taxes." And I am sure, Mr. Chairman - MR. TULK: finding it difficult. MR. WARREN: Being the man that he is he is - he must find it very, very difficult.

I would n.ot like to be in his shoes half the time because it is very, very difficult to have to do it. It is bad enough for an hon. member from the Opposition side. At least then the people would say you are fighting for them, but I am sure the member is finding it very, very difficult. I am surprised, Mr. Chairman, that with the House closing tomorrow the han. member has not gotten up and defended the government's tax increase in particular as it relates to taxes to municipalities. I am surprised, Mr.

Chairman, we only have tomorrow and then the House is going to recess, and the han. member, who is a mayor of one of the largest towns in this Province, has not had the intestinal fortitude to get up, because I would like for the han. member to get up and defend this government, and at the same time I would like for him to tell his constituents why this tax is necessary and why the people of Carbonear are going to have to come up with an extra - I think thehon. member said and extra $30,000 or any extra thirty-odd thousand dollars, that the Town of Carbonear has to come up with. 6318 I

December 2, 1982 Tape 3002 NM - 2 MR . TULK : Is that right? · Did you hear him on the radio? MR. WARREN : Yes, on the esc radio one morning I listened to the hon. member. He made a good speech there on the radio and he was talking about his concern - and he is concerned , the hon . member is concerned - but I would like for him to explain to us how does he expect the taxp ayers in Carbonear to come up with an extra $30,000 and at the same time defend this government in the way it is wasting money .

I am sure the hon. member would love to say, "Look , we will not increase these taxes in Carbonear , we will sell f.!ount Scio House instead ." The government could have done that and then the people in Carbonear would not have to pay extra taxes . MR. TULK: believes that . MR. WARREN: You know what? I think he really I am sure the hon. member does the hon. member is a faithful servant to his constituents both as a politician on the provincial scene and as a politician on the municipal scene. 6319

December 2,1982 Tape No. 3003 ah-1 MR. WARREN: It must be most difficult for the hon. gentleman to wear two hats and represent the same nP.onl8. So, Mr.Chairman - MR.BARRETT: If I had a head like yours I would wear a hat all the time. MR.WARREN: The only difference between myself and the hon. member for St. John's West (Mr. Barrett) is that he combs his hair different than I comb mine. ~1R. TULK: He has learned how to cover it up. MR.WARREN: Mr. Chairman, why should we have an increase in taxes? I know the hon. Chairman cannot answer me back directly,but I am sure the hon.

Chairman of the Committee is finding it very, very difficult in Kilbride knowing that he is a member of a government of forty-four members that have brought in tax increases in this Province. MR. AYLWARD: MR.WARREN: No difficulty in Kilbride. Mr. Chairman, I should relate probably to one of the many, many hundreds of telephone calls I have received and our party has received within the past two weeks. I am just reminded of one telephone call that I got yesterday evening about eight thirty. DR. COLLINS: MR.WARREN: He is not having any difficulty.

I am some glad that the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) spoke up,because the person who called me was a teacher in the Minister of Finance's district , a teacher for seventeen years. In fact, I could almost tell when he was knocking on her Qoor what she said to him,but I will not say that anyhow. When she culled yesterday she said, 'Look, I called up an ho'n. member of the Cabine·L:- DR.COLLINS: All the people in my district loved it. 6320

December 2,1982 Tape No. 3003 ah -2 MR.WARREN: Oh, yes, but not this one . If we remember back ten or twelve years ago, it was the teachers who put Joey Smallwood out of office and, I will tell you this much, it is going to be the teachers who are going to put the Liberals back in office . Because the teachers now are so disgruntled with this government that - MR .HOUSE : MR .WARREN : Name them ! Name them! There are about twenty-five in one little town in the minister's district who are disgruntled .

In one school alpne a.l,most all of the teac hers are so disgruntled with this government , and the mini ster in particular, that the minister wo uld loose his nomination if there were an election called tomorrow . So you see, Mr . Chairman , all the people in Newfoundland and Labrador are just completely turned off with this government . The only thing, Mr .Chairman, is we just finished an election five or six months ago and we have another two or three or four year s before we have another .

The Premier is probably thinking , 'We will give out the bad things this year, we will sock it to them this year, and we will sort of polish it up down the road .' But it is too late, no way can this government undo the things that the y have done . And I believe this government should take this bill £rom the Order Paper, disregard this bill, 6321

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 3004 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: and the same thing with the increase in the sales tax in Newfoundland to 12 per cent. Mr. Chairman, I believe that the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) should have the intestinal fortitude, he is a man of high calibre,­ the House is going to close tomorrow - of getting up stating that those two bills are withdrawn from the Order Paper and tell all the businesses that, 'Look, we are sorry we brought in the 12 per cent on adult clothing, we are sorry we increased the sales tax from 11 per cent to 12 ~er · cent, we are sorry we took the exemption off heating fuel, we are sorry for all of these things, so we are going to withdraw them.

What we are going to do instead is sell Mount Scio House, cancel the renovations to the Confederation Building, - we already have the government aircraft down there lying idle - so we are going to get some money through those avenues instead of taxing the people. Mr. Chairman, I know my time is very short, but I just want to mention to the Minister of Finance that the stupidest thing that has been done was to bring in this silly form on the sales of clothes to larger than usual children.

I had an opportunity this morning of going into a department store and at the cash register in the department store there was a bunch of little forms from the Department of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Is my picture there? MR. WARREN: No, your picture is not there and it is a good thing it is not. DR. COLLINS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : MR. WARREN: You miss it, do you? Oh, oh! Order, please! The hon. gentleman's time has elapsed. I am sure I will have time to tell my story afterwards, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister of Development. 6322

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 3004 SD - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I just want to respond for just one moment to some of the false innuendoes and charges laid down by the·Leader of the Oonor;i_'":inTl ('\r. Nearv) - MR. BARRETT: That is going to take more than a moment. That could take all day. MR. WINDSOR: - in his customary manner, Mr. Chairman. I cannot deal with all of them but I will deal with the current ones that came up a few moments ago.

Let me first of all put into perspective the series of events that have taken place surrounding the misfortunates in Corner Brook relating to the Bowaters mill. As the hon. House knows 1 officials from Bowaters did indeed come to St. John's back on the 18th of the month and met with the Premier and other ministers and advised us of the serious problems that they were facing and of a decision that indeed the Board of Directors had taken.

Now our position on that was, well, this is most unfortunate and we would like to have some time to look at this and to see just what can be done about it and what the implications are and what the impact is going to be on the community, particularly the community of Corner Brook· Now, Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman says that well some ministers panicked and ran off to South Carolina. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, long before the hon.

Leader of the Opposition came into this House with very little information and started making statements based on rumours that he heard from whatever sources 1 perhaps some information that he was given which was confidential information if indeed he was given that information, if it was not simply a figment of his imagination, the fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, that at least two days before the hon. Leader of the Opposition came into this House with that we had already reserved our reservations to go to South 6323

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 3004 so - 3 MR. WINDSOR : Carolina. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, that last was Thanksgiving Day in the United States and that most companies,including Bowaters 6324

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 3005 MJ - l MR. N. WINDSOR: took Friday off and everybody took the long weekend 1 as happened here three or four weeks ago. So there was nobody in South Carolina that we could get together with then, but the Board of Directors were meeting there on Monday and Tuesday and it was possible indeed for us to get there and to get some of their key people together in Greenville at the one time. Andthat is precisely why the visit was made to South Carolina when it was.

In the interim,we did approach the people in Corner Brook to get the information,and the reaction that we got there was that'all of the information is not yet available there, they are trying to compile i~ and this, Mr.

Chairman, by the way, was the reason why the company asked us not to disclose the information that was given to us on the 18th of the month,be~ause they had not yet formulated all of the decisions that they were going to make in relation to the individuals who would be displaced in Corner Brook,and they wanted to ensure that when they came out and said that'we have taken this terrible decision and here are the details of it, These are the people that will be displaced and this is the impact on them and this is what we are going to try to do about it to help these people and to help their families in these very trying times.• Now, Mr.

Chairman, that would have gone very well. The government respected as we do in every case, confidential information that is given to this government by corporations or other governments,or whatever, as the case may be. We respect that information and we keep it confidential. Now, it is unfortunate the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. S. Neary) does not act likewise. If, Mr. Chairman, he was going to be a responsible Leader of the Opposition, if he did indeed receive some information 6325

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 3005 MJ - 2 MR. N. WINDSOR: that had any basis in fact, if he did indeed receive some information that was le~ked from a source that had that information and that it was therefore dependable information, if he had any responsibility in his body at all, if he cared at all about the people of Corner Brook and the families of the people working at Bowaters then he would have taken the responsible action of going to the Premier and saying, 'Mr. Premier, I understand there is a serious situation about to take place. Can we discuss it with you? Will you tell us what is going to happen?

Is this true ? What do we do about it?' But, no, no, no. No, that is not the way he will do it, Mr. Chairman. MR. T. RIDEOUT: Yes, no coverase in the press then. MR. WINDSOR: There is no politics there. So he chose to play politics with the lives of the people of Corner Brook to try to make a few petty Brownie points by corning out and saying, 'Look what I have heard~' Well, Mr. Chairman, government heard long before the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. S.

Neary) and we took the necessary action in arranging meetings with the company in North Carolina, we requested the information from Bowaters in Corner Brook, the Premier has talked to the Chairman of the Board in England,and regardless of what the hon. gentlemen might wish to say - AN HON. MEMBER: Oh what Cathy White says wasted . MR. WINDSOR: Well, you know, I do not chose to listen to certain sources in the media. And, Mr. Chairman, everything that possibly could be done during that interim period was done. The objective, Mr.

Chairman, was first of all to find out exactly what if anything could be done, to find out exactly what indeed was going to take place so that we had the details, the company was able to get the details put in place and formulate their definitive plans as it related 6326

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 3005 MJ -3 MR. N. WINDSOR: to the individuals in Corner .Brook and so that people \vho were not going to be affected would not go through a week or so of anguis.h, as they did as a result of the irresponsible actions of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. S. Neary). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WT!mSOR: And that, Mr. Chairman, has don~ nothing to alleviate the situation in Corner Brook. Nobody \vill remain in their job because the Leader of the Opposition irresponsibly came into this House of Assembly and disclosed \vhat he thought was valid information or \Yhat he thought was rumours or \Yha·tever the case may be. So he 6327

December 2, 1982, Tape 3006, Page 1 -- apb MR. WINDSOR: has accomplished nothing, Mr. Chairman, except what he did do when we went to South Carolina, and when the Premier talked to the Chairman of the Board and requested, 'Look, this government needs more time to look at this problem. We need to look to see if there are any alternaives to closing that machine, we need more time to deal with the situation and to put contingency plans in place~' No, no. Instead of having that opportunity, Mr.

Chairman, when we went to talk to the company to say, 'Please defer your decision for a month', the answer was, 'Well, it is too late. The Leader of the Opposition has already made it public so we may as well deal with it now'. So, Mr. Chairman, if here had been an opportunity for us to defer this decision to give us the time to do something about the problem at hand, then the Leader of the Opposition(Mr. Neary) has taken it from us and as a result we are now faced with a situation where the decision has been made, it has been announced publicly and the action is moving forward.

So we now only have a four month period of time in which to deal with a decision that has been made. Instead, perhaps, we could have gained a month or so to deal with the problem before a final decision was made by the Board of Directors. So, Mr. Chairman, I say the Leader of the Opposition is, indeed'· Public Enemy No. 1 in Corner Brook. And if he wants to make some brownie points, I ask him to go to Corner Brook and try to make them, and we will see how ~he people of Corner Brook look on his irresp'onsible actions. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. CHAIRMAN(Aylward): MR. LUSH: Hear, hear!

The hon. the member for Terra Nova. Mr. Chairman, it is one thing to levy a tax, it is one thing to increase a tax, but it is quite another thing to defend a tax. And, of course, 6328

December 2, 1982, Tape 3006, Page 2 -- apb MR . LUSB : nobody likes to be in the position of having to defend a tax , but there are times ,there have been governments 1~ho could defend an inc rease in taxes . But,unfortunately, this government is not in that position . They cannot defend the increases that they have had to levy in taxes in this fiscal year. Because, Mr .

Chairman , the fact of the matter is that the situation '"as created not by the people of this Province, not by the people 111ho are now forced to pay through the nose, not by these people, the situation was created by the government by its mismanagement and by its lack of any kind of fiscal policy , by its lack of any kind of economic policy to develop this Province . That is the 63 29

December 2, 1982 Tape 3007 EC - 1 MR. TULK: position we are in and naturally they cannot defend it, naturally they cannot tell the truth. So consequently, of course, they have been digging a hole for themselves, Mr. Chairman, by getting up and suggesting that the tax measures will not affect those on fixed incomes, will not affect senior citizens. I suppose there are people who would suggest that this particular tax that we are now talking about will not affect senior citizens. Is there anybody naive enough to believe that there are no senior citizens who buy insurance, car insurance?

I expect that car insurance is included in this. There might be senior citizens not buying life insurance and that sort of thing, but I would expect that there are some who possibly ., even in late years in life, buy certain types of insurance. And we are talking about life insurance. I think the only thing excluded in this bill would be insurances related to medical insurances, health in­ surances and this sort of thing, but I think outside of that, general insurance, car insurance are all included. So, Mr. Chairman, this is not a luxury item when you start talking about car insurance.

This is a compulsory insurance because it is made compulsory by .the government that every person must have, must buy an insurance, Mr. Chairman, with respect to - MR. BUTT: Accident insurance - MR. LUSH: Right. MR. BUTT; - sickness insurance, life insurance and small boat insurance marine insurance. MR. LUSH: So automobiles l'/Ould be in 'cluded in this. They are included in this, Mr. Chairman, so it is a compulsory item, because 6330

December 2, 1982 Tape 3007 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: people do have to have insurances today. So we have taxed just about every­ thing that we can tax. Hr.Chairinan, as I have saio, it is one thing to have to increase a tax, it is one thing to have to levy a tax, it is another thing to defend it. And this government, of course, we realize their position, you cannot defend the indefensible.

Because this situ­ ation was made by the government and now we are asking the people to pay for the mismanagement and for the lack of policy, any kind of economic policy by this provincial government, and now we are asking the people of this Province, the poor people, those on fixed income, senior citizens, to pay for the blundering and for the mistakes of the provincial government. That is what we are asking, Hr. Chairman.

That is what we are asking the people of this Province to do, and it is no wonder that they have got up and made their feeble and their lame speeches in trying to defend the various tax increases, the various tax measures that they have levied on the people of this Province. Mr. Chairman, to suggest that it is not going to affect the poor, that it is not going to affect senior citizens is incredible! It is ridiculous to suggest that senior citizens do not purchase furniture, that they do not purchase clothes, that they do not ~urchase cars. Senior citizens, Hr.

Chairman, purchase as much as anybody with respect to furniture, refrigerators, televisions, certainly they do, 6331

--- December 2, 1982 ~ape 3008 PK - l MR. LUSH: and they purchase it as much and as often as most people and to suggest otherwise is just simply ridiculous. support this tax increase, So, Mr. Chairman, I cannot I cannot support it, this particular one on insurance and it is one that we have missed. We are talking about many instances 1 particularly with automobile and other types of motor vehicles, we are talking about a'compulsory item. This is not a luxury item, it is compulsory.

And I suppose hon • members opposite would. say that there are senior citizens who do not have cars-· they do not have cars, they do not have trucks - and the poor throughout the Province, and others on fixed incomes, they do not have cars, they do not have trucks. So, Mr. Chairman, there are a few people in this Province unaffected by this tax measure that the government is trying to force upon the people today, very few people who will not be affected by this particular tax measure. Very few people, Mr. Chairman, who will not be affected by 'this, another financial burden, Mr.

Chairman, forced upon the people of this Province in the area of insurance. How they are going to be able to take it, Mr. Chairman, is beyond my comprehension, how the people of this Province are going to be able to absorb all of these tax increases, The insurance rates them­ selves, the insurance premiums, Mr. Chairman, are enough to contend with. The insurance premiums have been going up and up for the last five years. in the tax. And now we have an extra increase So, Mr. Chairman, we have left nothing out. There is very little in this Province today that is not taxable. What is it that is not taxable today?

What is it? Can hon. members name what is not taxable today? DR. COLLINS: Food. MR. LUSH: Food. Yes, and I expect it is getting pretty delicate there. 6332

December 2, 1982 Tape 3008 PK -2 MR. LUSH: I expect i:t; the governm.ent brought it in, they would bring it in so stupidly that they would not know what was food, Mr. Chairman. They would probably tax meats and nothing else, or tax vegetables and nothing else. And t.;hen one realizes, Mr. Chairman, the little thought that went into this,the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) suggesting that this tax was going to become effective immediately! Mr. Chairman, did the minister not understand today that we are living in a technological world and that it was just impossible for many of the retailers, the business people throughout the Province to bring in this tax immediately,that 6333

December 2, 1982 Tape 3009 NM - 1 MR. LUSH: cash registers are programmed, and to bring th~t in that day was stupid, Mr. Chairman, stupid, and causing all kind of headaches. Did the minister not know by bringing in two different taxes the problems he was going to cause for retailers throughout the Province when most of their cash registers were only programmed for the one tax? All kinds of headaches, Mr. Chairman.

If the minister knew what he was up to, if he understood the business world in Newfoundland today, if he understood the problems of the little retailers out around the Province, then he would have given a time for it to become effective, let us say,for example,on the last of November. This would have given the people an opportunity to gear up for it. But, Mr. Chairman, he stupidly, blatantly, brings it in right away, effective today, Mr. Chairman, and that is the kind of thinking, that is the kind of foresight that we have seen demonstrated by this particular government.

And now today we have to pass this tax measure on insurance, many parts of which, Mr. Chairman, are compulsory. And I talk about the automobile part of the insurance, this is compulsory. Very few people in this Province today will be able to escape the effect of this measure today. Most of the people in the Province today, I would not want to put a percentage to it, Mr. Chairman, but a large number of people are going to be affected by this particular tax measure, this bill dealing with insurance. So, Mr.

Chairman, as I have said before, I know it is difficult for the government to defend because you cannot defend the indefensible. They cannot tell the truth, Mr. Chairman, why they have been forced to bring in these taxes. They cannot tell the truth so they have to use, 6334

December 2, 1982 Tape 3009 NM - 2 MR . LUSH : Mr . Chairman, mumbl e-jumb le in the way they have been doing it and to say that these tax measures are not going to affect the poor, the senior citizens, and those on fixed incomes . And I \o7ou~d suggest , Mr. Chairman, these are the people who are going to hurt tbe most . These are the people who are going to find it most burdensome. These are the people who are really going to find the hardship imposed by these increases in the taxe s, the retail tax, and this particular one that we are dealing with today. Nr. Chairman, this need not have been.

If this government had been doing their job, if they had been coming forth with their programmes, their policies for economic and financial development, developing this Province in the way that they should have, taking the responsib~ty that a government is supposed to take , Mr. Chairman, honouring the mandate that the people of this Province gave them, they would not have had to impose the se taxes. 6335

....., December 2, 1982 Tape 3010 EC - 1 MR. LUSH: What have they been doing, Mr. Chairman? What have they been doing in the last ten years? What have they been doing? That is the question that we must ask ourselves. And when we answer that question it is readily ascertained v,rhy it is that they have had to bring in these tax measures. Because the truth of the matter, Mr. Chairman, is that they have been doing nothing. Doing nothing!

They have been experts, they have been specialists, they have been superb specialists in laying blame and shifting blame, in diversionary tactics, in putting up smoke screens, and red herring. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : elapsed. MR. LUSH: MR. CHAIRMAN: leave to continue? SOME HON. MEMBERS: I>IR • CHAIRMAN : MR. NEARY: MR. CHAIRMAN: Opposition. Order, please! The hon. member's time has So soon, Mr. Chairman? By leave? Does the hon. member have No. No. Mr. Chairman. The hon. the Leader of the MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I started to say before my time ran out that people in this Province are repeating over and over and over again on a daily basis, everywhere you go now, if you go to the super­ market, if you go to the shopping malls, if you go to your district, if you are travelling on a plane, if you go to your doctor's office or your dentist's office, you are sitting down and hearing people say every day that a Tory government was never any good. And it has 6336

December 2, 1982 Tape 3010 EC -2 MR. NEARY: been proven n01·1, Mr . Chairman, these people are correct. MR. CALLAN: No better than the town council in Paradise. They should resign. HR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, that is not just partisan politics on my part. That is not just being Liberals versus Tories, that is an established fact.

Go back over the history books, go back into history, delve a little bit into your history and you will see that a Tory government was never any good, that a Tory government shirks its responsibility, a Tory government cannot seem to govern, ~>Thether it is federal or provincial, they cannot seem to govern the Province, they cannot seem to govern Canada. Mr. Chairman, a Tory government has al~o1ays been the type of government that people feel they cannot trust. They can never trust a Tory government. Ordinary people feel very strongly about that, that they cannot trust a Tory government. And no1v, Mr.

Chairman, it has been proven. We see a situation here in this Province where the Tories 1o1ere given forty-four seats, they were given a strong mandate in an election where they asked for a mandate to negotiate an offshore agreement. Now, have they negotiated an offsho·re agreement? No, Mr. Chairman, they have not. As a matter of fact, they have done anything but negotiate an agree­ ment. They have continued their squa.bbling and fighting, they have continued to remain 6337

December 2, 1982 Tape 3011 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: on the attack even though they know in their hearts that there are only two items that are barring a negotiated settlement offshore, revenue sharing and management of the resource. MR. STAGG: Mr. Trudeau. MR. NEARY: Two objects: Mr. Chretien and If the hon. gentleman is talking about objects, he should throw in the Government House Leader, the Minister of Energy (Mr. Marshall) in this Province. We will never get an agreement, there will never be a negotiated agreement offshore until that gentleman is removed from the negotiations. But, Mr.

Chairman, they have no intention of resolving this offshore agreement, no intention at all. They do not want their issue in the next federal election to disappear. They are carrying on the federal campaign and they do not want an agreement. They know these two items are negotiable. Mr. Chretien was on the radio again today crying out for somebody to negotiate with, to get in a room with, Mr. Chairman. MR. STAGG: Where is he crying? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chretien cannot negotiate by himself. He cannot sit down to a table by himself or get in a room by himself, it takes two to tango.

And so he needs somebody to negotiate with. Now is this government carrying out their mandate? No they are not. Now did they t~ll the people the real reason for the last election? No, Mr. Chairman, they did not. The real reason for the last election was not the offshore. They are not interested in settling that, they want to carry that into the federal campaign. Mr. Chairman, the real issue in the last provincial election was the budget. The government could not bring down a budget, and when they did bring it down we accused them of cooking the books. 6338

December 2, 1982 DR . COLLINS: an election period? MR. NEARY : DR. COLLINS: Tape 3011 PK - 2 tvhy do we not do that after After the election? Yes . You are only suppose to do that before an election, are you not? MR. NEARY : Mr. Chairman, that is a good question . MR . STAGG : Your time is up . MR . NEARY : The reason they did it was because they had deceived the people in the election . It was a phoney election , a phoney issue. They had already dec eiv ed the people, they could not admit then after the election that they could not balance the budget . DR .

COLLINS : It would have been as well to admit it then as now . MR . NEARY : So that was another deceit . That was another way that they betrayed the people who elected them , a $60 million deficit in current account . They withheld information on the closing of fish plants in this Province . They withheld in£ormation on Bowaters. And DO\-' the Minister of Development (Mr . Windsor) got up today and told us the meeting with the Premier - Mr . Chairman, I can hardly believe this - the Minister of Development said, yes, there was a meeting but it was private and confidential. Private and confiden tial ! Mr .

Chairman, the future of the whole Nestern part of this Province a private and confidential matter between the Bowaters officials from South Carolina and the Premier 6339

.J December 2, 1982, Tape 3012, Page l -- apb MR. NEARY: and the Premier and a few of his privileged ministers, the privileged few, only the three of four of them who knew about it~ I doubt if the Minister of Development{Mr. Windsor) knew about it until I raised it in this House. The Premier did not even take his Cabinet into his confidence. He did not trust his Cabinet.

He did not take the unions, the Mayor and the City Council of Corner Brook, and the Chambers of Comme~ce, and the service clubs and the Legion in Corner Brook, he did not trust them enough to take them into his confidence, another example of deceiving the people. MR. TULK: If they wanted to keep it quiet, why did they not come over as they did with the security at Mount Scio House? MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the bon. gentleman suggested, why did we not go behind the curtain.

Why did not the bon. gentleman, if he knew about it, take us behind the curtain and tell us like the Premier took us behind the curtain to tell us about security at Mount Scio House? MR. TULK: M):l.. STAGG: woodshed. MR. TULK: briefings? MR. NEARY: we had. Yes. Take the hon. gentleman behind the Do you remember the offshore Yes, the offshore secret briefings Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Premier and the administration are paranoid, they are paranoid and they are not to be trusted. They do not know what they are doing. They have the Province in a mess. They have the economy in a mess.

The have the fiscal matters in this Province in a mess. They do not know what they are doing. They are paranoid and they are not to be trusted. They are 6340

December 2, 1982, Tape 3012, Page 2 --apb MR. NEARY: incapable of governing. The Premier and some of his ministers may be nice fellows, and they may be well-meaning, and they may have good intentions, but they are not to be trusted with the authority to run this Province. And that is one of the reasons why, Mr. Chairman, we are hearing more now every day from people who are asking this question, or making this statement, 'A Tory government was never any good,' and that 'Tory times are indeed hard times.' And we have not seen the worst of it yet, Mr. Chairman.

How much more information is the Premier and his ministers sitting on, covering up? How much more? I have a few more goodies in the back of my head, Mr. Chairman. MR. BARRETT: They must be some lonesome. MR. NEARY: I have a few more that I will deal with in due course. And I can tell this House that the Premier and his ministers are sitting on information that is devastating to this Province. And now everybody will want to know, 'What is it? l'i"hat is it?' MR. TULK: Are you going to tell them? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, they are not to be trusted. This crowd are not to be trusted. The people nti longer trust them.

Their believeability, the government's believeability and their credibility has been so badly damaged-and the Premier's image and his credibility and his believeability in the last few months has taken a drastic nosedive in this Province. You do not hear hon. gentlemen now boasting about polls. You do not hear them boasting about polls now. MR. DINN: MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: polls now. trusted. You did not have one done, did you? Go out and do one. The hon. gentleman should see the Mr. Chairman, they are not to be 6341

December 2,1982 Tape No. 3013 ah-1 HR NEARY: Young people who are longing for employment, are looking now and saying - MR.STAGG: Let them look in Gdansk. MR.NEARY: The young people are becoming born-again Liberals too, Mr.Chairman, born-again Liberals. They are just flocking to the Liberal party. The young people who look to the government for jobs - now today or tomorrow the statistics to come out from the Youth Commission in this Province are devastatins - they know it is hopeless . At a time in their lives when they should be working, no hope of ever getting a job. Mr.

Chairman, they are becoming born-again Liberals. They do not trust the government any more. The nurses do not trust the government, the teachers do not trust the government, civil servants do not trust the government, Mr. Parsons in the Federation of Labour does not trust the government. Nobody trusts the government, nobody trusts them. They are not to be trusted, Mr. Chairmqn. They are incapable of governing, they do not know what they are doing, they are paranoid. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dr.McNichol~): Order, please! The han. member's time has elapsed. MR.NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

So it is any wonder that more people are making a statment that a Tory government was never any good. MR.STAGG: MR.CHAIRMAN: MR.STAGG: MR. Chairman, Mr. Chairman. The han. member for Stephenville. Thank you, I was not going to speak on a tax bill that generally has little relation to the subject of the offshore or the government's performance, 6342

December 2,1982 Tape Jllo. 3013 a:h-2 MR.STAGG: but as is usual in these matters debate can be wideranging and the rules indicate that practically anything goes and it is almost the same as the Throne Speech debate. Now the Minis·ter of Development (Mr. Windsor) earlier outlined in some detail,and quite well,the role that the Leader of the Opposition (1>1r.Neary) haa played in the latest problems that v1e have had in this Province, particularly as it relates to the BO\vaters situation.

Now there is no doub·t that there is a realization coming across this Province at the present time that the Leader of the Opposition's hasty,intemperate and devious act last Friday in this House \vill rank really among the most dishonourable things that any politician has ever done in this Province. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 6343

December 2, 1982 Tape 3014 NM - 1 MR. STAGG: That is where it ranks. Now whether the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is able to use his considerable powers of persuasion, because he has had a lot of experience at persuasion- he has been in the House for approximately twenty years so he does have some debating skills- he is going to have to draw on all of his resources on this one. Because the facts, as I understand them, Mr.

Chairman, and the truth will out, is that the government had this whole issue very much in hand as far as knowledge of it was concerned, were doing whatever could be done,because we are, after all, a free enterprise society, a free enterprise system, and private companies are able to make decisions and government is not able to overrule them, and government was doing everything within its power, with its considerable power as far as persuading and intervention at the highest level was being scheduled, and what happens? What happens is that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) through sources unknown, and I expect that it is somebody within the Bowater organization that gave him that information, and whoever that person is who gave the hon. gentleman the information - MR. YOUNG: Will never trust him again. MR. STAGG: - will never trust him again, no, unless that person is sick. The person who gave the hon. gentleman the information must be sick because what did happen is that there was a premature announcement made and it may in fact have been a self-fulfilling prophecy.

When you prophesize disaster, and people start thinking about it, eventually some of these things come to pass. Now it is possible that everything would have happened in the same way as it did happen. MR. NEARY: MR. STAGG: Oh,go on~· That is nonsense. That is a possibility. 6344

December 2, 1982 Tape 3014 NM - 2 MR. NEARY: Take your medicine, boy. MR. STAGG: There is a very distinct possibility, Mr. Chairman, that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) had his day of infamy. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. RIDEOUT: down, my son. MR. NEARY: MR. STAGG: Hear, hear! If I were you I would rather go You would rather - The Leader of the Opposition's day of infamy, not on December 7th., the day of infamy in the United States is December 7th., Pearl Harbour day, when the Japanese were negotiating peace - MR. RIDEOUT: I am sorry, 'Fred'. MR. STAGG: Well, my hon. friend have at it, I do not mind.

I have my own train of though here. I do not mind assistance from my colleague. The day of infamy in the United States is December 7th., 1941, when the Japanese were negotiating peacein Washington while their bombers were approaching Pearl Harbour. And the President of the United States at that time used the time-honoured phrase, "a day of infamy". Well, what was last Friday? Last Friday was November 26th., 1982, a day of infamy for the Liberal Party in this Province, when the Leader of the Opposition precipitated the close-down of the Bowaters operation in Corner Brook. MR. NEARY: Lies. Lies. Lies. MR.

STAGG: The Leader of the Opposition_brought it on the Provilince. He cut the feet out from under the government. Government was attempting to do what it could witin its limited power, trying to do what it could responsibly, and the Leader of the Opposition paraded in here· 6345

December 2, 1982 MR. STAGG: MR. NEARY : MR. STAGG : Mr. Chairman, Tape 3014 On Firday morning - That a boy, Hitler. I must be hitting close, 6346 NM - 3

December 2, 1982 Tape 3015 SD - 1 MR. STAGG: because I am hearing it come over. 'Hitler' is the latest thing. Yes, Hitler, Goebbels and Joe McCarthy, 'Are you now or have you ever been,' and so on. These are the familiar tactics of the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary). Well, the West Coast of Newfoundland will not forget - MR. RIDEOUT: That is right. t-iR.

STAGG: - and the West Coast of Newfoundland will not be allowed to forget, because as a politician on the ~lest Coast of this Province I will not let it die, and I know that ·the members for Corner Brook will not let it die, that there is no friend for the West Coast of Newfoundland to be found in the Liberal Party of this Province. T believe the hon. member's colleagues are not proud of what happened. He has one colleague, one lone colleague on the West Coast of Newfoundland, the member for Port au Port (Mr.

Hodder), who, I think it is safe to say, got elected in April of this year largely on his own efforts, he certainly did not get any help from the Liberal Party. Through his own politicking - MR. HICKEY: He got the money from the federal Liberals. MR. STAGG: He got the money, did he? Well, he evidently had something that aided him in getting elected when all around him were falling. But I suggest that the hen. gentleman's leadership in this matter has severely curtailed the credibility of the ~~be~a~ ~a~ty on the West Coast. Mr. Chairman, how much time do I have left - three or four minutes? MR. CHAIRMAN (Dr.

McNicholas): Four minutes. MR. STAGG: Four minutes. Well, I commend to the reading of hon. gentlemen an

article called 'The Hibernia Impasse'. 6347

December 2, 1982 Tape 3015 SD - 2 MR. STAGG: The member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) gave me this article. I think we are all going to refer to it. It is written by one Ralph Surette, S-u-r-e-t-t-e. Mr. Surette is a free-lance writer living in Nova Scotia. And I commend it to the reading of all hon. gentlemen and I will refer to it as part of my copious notes ·, Mr. Chairman, I will just refer to it, I will not quote from it directly because that is in contravention of the rules. I Hill just read one

section here. It says: 'Last Winter Newfoundland proposed a management scheme in which an impartial third party would have the final say whenever Ottawa and the Province are in a deadlock over matters of offshore management. The Province accepted the idea of a declining share as revenues increased but a decline that would be slower than in the Nova Scotia agreement. It offered to put aside the question of ownership on the seabed.' Now this man, writing for the Globe and Mail, the newspaper in Canada, Mr. Chairman - AN HON. MEMBER: Far ahead of The Daily News. MR.

STAGG: Yes, and far ahead of most newspapers in Canada. It is an opinion setter, they do not put things in that are written by incompetent journalists. And what does this man say, this free-lance writer now living in Nova Scotia? He said, 'These are reasonable proposals.' Now that is the proposal, by the way, which is in this analysis of the impact 6348

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 3016 MJ - 1 MR. F. STAGG: of a Nova Scotia type offshore agreement on Newfoundland, our proposal is the January 25th proposal. MR. S. NEARY: Again . MR. STAGG: Yes, again. ,The hon. gentleman says, 'Again' because he does not want to be reminded of it. It is part of the reason - AN HON. MEMBER~ MR. STAGG: He has not even read it. He does not want to read it. No, he does not want to read it because it shows what a good group of Canadians we are.

It is the main reason why the hon. gentleman is accompanied by ten ghosts over there, the ghosts of the ten Liberals who were defeated on April 6, 1982. 'These are reasonable proposals' - says this man.

He has ·no particular axe to grind, he has no reason to be on Newfoundland's side - 'so reasonable in fact that one insider in Newfoundland government circles points out, 'If some people realized what he is proposing, Peckford would be in trouble with his own militant supp9rters. ' Now, I have said to hon. gentleman before what they should be saying is that the P.C.s in Newfoundland have not gone far enough, like Sandy Cameron said in Nova Scotia said recently, 'They are giving away the farm', and so on.

That is what hon. gentleman should be saying,but instead they have no policy, they hope disaster rains down upon the Province and if they can facilitate it- as the hon. gentleman from LaPoile (Mr. S. Neary) did in the case of Corner Brook -if they can facilitate it, if they can accelerate it in any way they will do it,not unlike what brought down a previous Leader of the Opposition of the Liberal Party, Mr. Chairman, when the government of the da~ in 1977 or 1978 was in some trouble in the Province, was 6349

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 3016 MJ - 2 MR. F. STAGG: at a low ebb, and the then Leader of the Opposition tried to accelerate the decline by releasing police reports on a very sensitive matter. Then who ended up on the losing end? SOME HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. STAGG: It is a mug's game, Mr. Chairman, and it is the sort of thing that will ultimately end up in defeat, bon. gentlemen will be defeated. And the unfortunate thing about that - we do not really mind bon. gentlemen beinq defeated-but if along the way - MR. J. HODDER: Why are you so unfriendly today? MR. STAGG: I am argry. I was not angry when .

I stood up, but the more I think about it and the more I develop this line of argument, I get angry. I get angry at bon. gentlemen who think that by shouting and screaming ano caterwauling that they can·make me sit down. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): MR. STAGG: Order, please! Order, please! The only person who can make me sit down is the Chairman,who will indicate to me that my time is up. MR. CHAIRMAN: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. T. LUSH: MR. CHAIRMAN: Nova. MR. LUSH: Order, please! The bon. rrembers tjJre is up. Hear, hear! Mr. Chairman. The bon. the member for Terra Mr.

Chairman, before I got stopped by the clock ,I was developing an argument .related to why the government had to increase these taxes, why they had to burden the people of this Province with their increases in taxes and still another tax,Mr. Chairman, an item of which is compulsory, a compulsory tax on a compulsory item. 6350

Decembe~ 2 1 1982 Tape 3017 EC - l MR. LUSH: I was suggesting that this was brought about by the government's mismanagement and in developing that theme, 11r. Chairman, I had suggested that this government had done nothing~ I asked the questions su~gesting that they had done nothing and ~·as commenting on their tactics. And the member who just spoke, 11r. Chairman, was the epitome, the quintessence, the quintes~al epitome of what I was demonstrating. I was saying, Mr. Chairman, that this government were experts, they were experts at shifting blame, laying blame. t1R. TULK: profession.J.ls. MR. LUSH: Oh, yes.

They are the Everything that has gone wrong, Mr. Chairman, everything that has gone wrong in the last five years - MR. TULK: Repeat it for the gentleman from Burin - Placentia West (Hr. Tobin) . MR. LUSH: I said he was the epitome, the quintessence of what I was demonstrating. And I coined a new word, I believe. I said that he was the 'quintesmal' epitome, ·but I think that is a new word. But, Mr. Chairman, they have specialized for the past five years in laying blame. Anything that went wrong in the economy was blamed on the federal government. Well, one can only get away with that for so long.

That is not a bad tact.ic, it is a diversionary tactic, putting up smoke screens, red herring. That is not a bad tactic. As a matter of fact, many governments use it, but it is not a bad tactic, all things being equal. It is not a bad tactic when the government are doing things. It is not a bad tactic when the government are providing jobs, when they are developing the economy. A government could then get 6351

December 2, 1982 Tape 3017 EC - 2 MR . LUSH : away with this ta ctic, thi s diversionary tactic of laying blame, shifting blame . But when it has gone on for ten years, I am afraid the people can see it for what it is . And I would suggest, ltr . Chairman , that this government has had its day with respect to laying blame . For the pa st three or four years it has been Otta,.,.a , they have been the culprits, the federal government, they have been responsible for every economic woe in this Province, they have been the bad wolf, ~~ . Chairman. But the latest one , Mr .

Chairman , is to blame the Le ader of the Oppo sitio n (to~ . Neary) for \o~h at has happened in Corner Brook . Now, is that not the most ridiculous thing that anyone has ever heard? Now, Mr . Chairman , do they think the people of this Province , do they believe that the people of this Province are green enough and are stupid enough to beli eve that silly , asini ne argument? The people of this Provin ce, 6352

December · 2, 1982 Tape 3018 PK - 1 MR. LUSH: the people that they are underestimating, Mr. Chairman, they have underestimated by a long shot. They have underestimated by a long shot the intelligence of the people of this Province to suggest that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) by his industry, by his diligent approach to political matters, that he was able to find this out and know that the government were sitting on this information and,for him' to expose the government,to expect that the people of this Province will they somehow lay the blame on the Leader of the Opposition. What nonsense!

What stupidity! What an asinine argument! Mr. Chairman, they have completely estimated the intelligence of the people of this Province. But, Mr. Chairman, we probably should not advise them of that. We should not inform them. We should let them go on because the people out there now are laughina. They are laughing at the stupidity of this government, this arrogant government who have, and members of which have been getting up here over the past six months in their arrogant 1 haughty and hoity-toity fashion trying to defend, Mr.

Chairman, the increases in taxes by advancing stupid, incredible, and asinine arguments. And the last one 1 as I said, Mr. Chairman, the last one got to be the latest, got to be the latest when they suggest that the Leader of the Opposition 1 by his informing the people of this Province that he had information relating to the disaster that was taking place at Corner Brook,for them to try and make the people of this Province believe that because of his discovering this that somehow this prevented the government from moving in and advancing some plans. Well, Mr.

Chairman, the problem is what the people of this Province will say, They will be forever grateful to the Leader of the Opposition for his 6353

December 2, 1982 Tape 3018 PK - 2 HR . LUSH: discovering this . Because, t-1r . Chairman, there is no doubt about it 1 if the Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) had not discovered this the people of t.his Province would not have been informed properly and adequately as to the real inefficiency of this particular government . So, Mr . Chairman , I think their days are over when they can play political games with the people of this Province . SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! HR . LUSH : They have seen it, they have seen it for too long now, Mr. Chairman, this posturing and this playing of political games .

The chickens have come home to roost , and the people of this Province are finally seeing the truth .. They are fina lly seeing the truth . And, Mr . Chairman , as I have said ,when they look at what this government have been doing over the past ten years - HR . TULK : That is right . MR . LUSH: - when they see what they have been doing : First of al l, Mr . Chairman, they started closin g down jobs , they starting closing dow n industry, and what they could not close down directly is now closing down and falling dO\IIn indir~ ·:tly around their ea>: ;. ~o 63 54

December 2,1982 Tape No. 3019 ah-1 MR.LUSH: what they did not voluntarily close down, what they did not close down in terms of what they had direct control over,they are now causing to fall down and close down industry over which they have no direct control but control indirectly the policies of this Province effect indirectly. Now we find that as a result of the lack of management and ·the lack of any economic and financial development policies and programmes that industries are falling down around their ears, they have us in a mess.

And, Mr.Chairman, the people of this Province are beginning now to get the proof, they are now getting evidence which substantiates the fact, Mr. Chairman, that a Tory government is no good for the Province of Newfoundland , it has never been any good and it will never be any good. They are getting that message now, Mr.Chairman, they are getting it. I am sure members opposite now daily with that expression. their ears must be ringing They must be ringing daily because that is all I hear ~ it is all I hear.

I never realized it before, but now I know why that expression about Tory governments came into being and now I can see the facts that substantiate it, that a Tory government is a no-good government, Mr Chairman, and that Tory times are hard times. People are really beginning to see that now, people who did not go through it, our younger people who did not go through it but now, Mr.Chairman, they are beginning to see it.

And this government has never demonstrated that saying or there has never been a government, I should say ,that has demonstrated this saying more than any other government throughout the modern world. Because, Mr.Chairman, as I have said,when one asks the question , What have they done over the past ten years ? the answer is nothing 6355

Decmeber 2,1982 Tape No. 3019 ah-2 MR.LUSH: but a big zilch, a big zilch, Mr. Chairman. All they have done is increase taxes and increased just about everything, every fee, everything that the government administers, everything the government controls have all been increased from rabbit licenses to insurance premiums. 6356

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 3020 so -1 MR. LUSH: That is what they have done, Mr. Chairman, increased everything over \vhich they have control from rabbit licences to insurance premiums. So, Mr. Chairman, that is what they have done and in-bet\-1een they have been doing some posturing, in-between they have been trying to give the impression that they are doing something like setting up royal commissions, setting up studies, developing five year plans, developing blue prints for development, doing all of this, Mr. Chairman. MR. TULK: All in blue. MR. LUSH: And the strangest thing is, ~tr.

Chairman, they have developed those five year plans, those six year plans, those seven year plans, the funniest thing is they never develop a three year plan. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): MR. LUSH: SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN : Order, please! The hon. member's time has elapsed. By leave, Mr. Chairman. No. I hear a no. Shall the resolution carry? MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, I \vant to speak to this bill as well.

I want to point out that there is a \vell known principle in this bill which, I believe, every person in this Province kn_ows and which has been pointed out to us very clearly in this tax bill and all the other tax bills passed in this House in the last ten years, certainly in the last four that I have been here, and that principle, Mr. Chairman, used to be written in glass in this Province everywhere you looked and that is the principle that Tory times, Mr. Chairman, are hard times. MR. STEWART: We heard that yesterday. 6357 •

~ December 2, 1982 Tape No.3020 SD - 2 MR. TULK: Tory times are hard times, Mr. Chairman. I notice that the Chairman shakes his head. Mr. Chairman, it is true 1 I can assure you. Every possible tax that this government could increase they have increased - every possible tax that they could find they have increased. Mr. Chairman, they have increased rabbit licences, land grant taxes and you can go on down the line. The Premier tried to keep a promise that he made in 1979 that he would not increase the retail sales tax. Mr. Chairman, he increased every other indirect tax there was, even a floating tax on gasoline.

Now,Mr. Chairman, the Tories have mismanaged this Province to the point where they have to increase the sales tax to 12 per cent, the highest retail sales tax in Canada. What cover do they do it under, Mr. Chairman? They do it under the cover of restraint. They have to cut back, they have to balance the .budget. Mr. Chairman, ther~ is a very good letter which is going to appear, I believe, in one of the newspapers, if it has not already. It is a letter written by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) in which he points out some of the things that could have been done to save money in this Province.

I am not going to go through them all but I will g~ ·through some of them again. 'Why not,' as he says, 'cut back on the fleet of cars in the government motor pool - $500,000. Why not cut back on the reclassification of salaries of political appointments?' and so on. 'Why not move the Premier out of Mount Scio House~ Why not try to save the money that we wasted in the Murray Premises? 6358

December 2, 1982 Tape No. 3021 MJ -l MR. B. TULK: What about the enlargement of the office of the Premier's Chief of Staff. I >vent through all of those the other evening, Mr. Chairman, but they bear repeating because they show that the Premier and his government are willing - MR. J. BUTT: telephone bill? MR. TULK: MR. BUTT: MR. TULK: MR. BUTT: MR. TULK: What about the hon. members Sure,why not? Yes, why not. I am willing if you are. Why not cutback? Why not? Mr. Chairman, we came into this House and offered an number of concessions to that side.

We said, 'Here are the ways you can do it.' And they say, 'No, we do not want to do that. We want to live in the lap of luxury but we want the ordinary people of this Province to take it on the chin.' Some members on the other side even believe, Mr. Chairman, that the ordinary people of this Province, the people who are really going to take the brunt of this burden, the ordinary people can well afford it. And of course we are talking of the member for St. Mary's -The Capes (Mr. L. Hearn). Mr. Chainnan, here is a part of his speech on November 29th. He says, " Mr.

Chairman, because when we look at people on low incomes or fixed income~ we are looking at old age pensioners,for instance, people on social assistance, we are looking at a monthly income per person of less than $500." He goes on to say, "Where did the increase tax place?" -where does it happen? -"On goods that are taxable, hardware, furniture, etc. How many television sets, cars, refrigerators, etc.,do people on fixed incomes buy? Very, very few. Consequently, little or no effect. Adult clothing, anybody who is getting $5,000 6359

Dec .~mber 2, 1982 Tape No. 3021 MJ - 2 MR. B. TULK: or $6,000 a year or less does not spend much money on adult clothing," - oh, all they spend it on ·is food - "Consequently, the effect once again, minimal." He says, "The people who are buying the cars, the people who are buying the clothing, the people who are buying the furniture are people who are middle income or relatively well off. Consequently, these are the people who can afford to spend the money." Mr.

Chairman, I would ask the hon. gentleman - he had the courage to stand in this House and say those words - I would ask the hon. gentleman, to again stand in this House and either say them or take them back because, Mr. Chairman, the people in the middle income tax bracket today in this Province are the people who are really finding the smart of every tax that is in this country, The people who have to get out day by day and make a living, those are the people who are finding the real smart of this tax and every tax that this government has put in, the ordinary people of this Province.

I do not mind telling the fellow who is paying a high mortgage that I know where that comes from and I do not mind laying the blame there. I know where high interest rates come from in this country and I do not mind laying the blame. But this government has done nothing to alleviate anything that any other government or any other institution has done. The truth is that they do not care about the ordinary people of this Province. They do not want to put money back into the economy so that people can spend. They may have been far better off, Mr. Chairman, instead of raising that sales tax if they had lowered it.

The minister may find by the end of March that by raising the tax and raising every tax that he can find, creating a bad picture of the economy,he may very well find that he 6360

December 2, 1982 Tape 3022 EC - 1 l-1R . TULK : may very well find that he has se t in place a psych ology in this Province where people will no longer spend . What is going to be the effect of that? Be may, in fact, have reached the point where SSA , \-'hich is a regressive tax anywa~· he may have reached the point where there is a diminishing return on every point you raise the sales tax dollar . He may have reached that . So he may end up doing nothing anyway only just pushing this economy farther down the drain . Th at is , in fact , I think, what he has done . Because people in this Province are scared .

They are scared to spend even if they have the money . Mr . Chairman, the truth is , as we are saying on this side, that everything in this Province is falling in around the government 's ears . The eco no my is falling down around the ir ears . Fish plants in this Province a.re closing, they are in a terrible mess, and the government sits on its laurels and does nothing . They hear about the closing of a fish plant , one of the oldest fish plant s in this Province employing some 750 people , they hear about it where? According to the President of the Council , the Acting Premier (Mr .

Marshall) , they heard it in the media . NO\>J, Mr . Cha irman, there has to be some ­ thing wro ng \nth a government that hears about a ma jor industry in this Province from newspapers or from the media . They are not on the ball enough in the fishing industry in this Province to even know that it is falling dO\m around their ears, let alone do anything about it . Hr. Chairman, the truth is that in the fishery in this Province there are a good many areas where unless some swift action is taken , 6361

December 2, 1982 Tape 3022 EC - 2 MR. TULK: and taken by this government and the federal government - there is no doubt about that, the federal government has to have a part, but this government has to have a part as well. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! The hon. member still has two minutes left. I am sorry to interrupt him, but, it being 5:00 P.M. on Thursday, I have to inform the House that there are no questions for debate on the Late Show today. The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr.

Chairman, the truth is - and I will conclude on this and get back at it later - the truth is that the fishing industry in this Province is failing down around the government's ears, and the sad part about it, Mr. Chairman, is that it is falling down around t~e ears of the people who depend on it, namely, the fishermen and the fish plant workers. And they are not even aware of what is happening. Mr. Chairman, it almost makes you believe - I cannot believe that of the gentlemen on the other side because, unlike them, I believe that they are good Newfoundlanders.

I do not stand in this House and tell somebody on the other side that he is a traitor to Newfoundland, as that crew has done to this side. I believe they are good Newfoundlanders -· but it \·Jould almost lead you to believe, Mr. Chairman, that they do not give a damn about the fishing industry anyway, that it is oil and gas or nothing. It is oil and gas or perish. That seems to be their attitude. The whole industry is falling down around their ears and they do not even know about it. And the real trouble is, Mr.

Chairman, that in the rural parts of this Province we may be facing one of the 1vorst disasters - and I do not want to spread 6362

Pecember 2 1 1982 Tape 3022 EC ·· 3 MR. TULK : gloom and doom - but we may be facing one of the worst disasters since the Great Depression, particularly on the South Coast of the Province where many o£ the me~bers of this House come from . The whole fishing industry fs bottom up and about to go down the drain . Mr . Chairman , I would like to get back to say a fe\.; more words on a number of things that have been raised in this House . I would like to get back to say a few more things about some of the accusations that have been made with regard to the Leader of the Opposition ( ltr .

Neary) on this side and the Bowaters affair and the Burin affair and so on, and I trust that I will have the time to do it. 63 63

December 2, 19 .82 Tape 3023 PK - 1 MR. CHAIRMAN (A ylward) : The hon. member for St. Mary's- The Capes. SOME HON. MEMBEF'S: Hear, hear! MR. HEARN: Mr. Chairman, I just want to put a few things in perspective.The hon. memher who just spoke made reference to the comments I made some days ago, comments that I have no intention of taking back because when I stand in this House I utter the truth and the facts, but then I do not go and distort them, neither do I distort the statements made by the gentleman opposite.

For quite some titne we have been hearing the members opposite accusing the government of raising the necessary taxes, the necessary funds that we need to keep this Province going,on the backs of the poor people. My statements last week were made quite clearly to show that the poor people of this Province have not the resources to· support this Province in relation to revenue raised by taxes.

What I stated was that the people .who are on fixed income, on social services, getting pensions,etc.,that their income is so low that the money that they to spend bn materials which are taxable is very, very small in comparison to that of people who are better off. What I was trying to clarify there, and I will clarify now, is that the revenues that we have to raise will be raised mainly from people of relatively good income.

Now I am not saying that I agree with taxing those people either, certainly I do not agree with taxing the ordinary worker, and by all means I am very much against ~axing the people on low incomes, as we all are. But the point is 1 Mr. Chairman, certain necessities and services must be provided, in order to provide such services you have to have funding , and in order to get funding you have to raise money. 6364

December 2, l982 Tape 3023 PI< - 2 MR. HEARN : The leading econanists in the Province will tell us that the only logical possible steps we could have taken at this time are the ones that we took . So I would like for the hon. gentleman to get these things in perspective . I come from a district that anyone in the House will recognize is as rough a district as you would expect in relation to services that have to be provided . We are a long way behind . I knmo~ what it is like to live with ordinary people, with the working people, because everybody in my district is an ordinary worki:qg person .

But I do not come in here and try to make hay on their backs, I go out there and try to do somethin g about it . We have had problems with our fish plants , but I went out very, very quietly and worked with them to try to alleviate the problems , not to come in bene and make a pile of accusations . SOt>tE RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR .

HEARN : I would like to suggest to the hon. gentleman,and perhaps to people in general,that if we look over the remarks that have been madein the past few weeks we can all realize only too well that we are going through extremely hard times and that the people who are really suffering are the people out there . But what are we doing about it? 6365

December 2, 1982 Tape 3024 EC .,.. 1 MR. HEARN: On this side, we have stated quite clearly that we are attempting in 'every way to do what we can in relation to the problems in the fishery and in relation to the problem with Bowaters. We are trying to do it conscientiously. What do we get from the other side? All we get is a pile of criticisms. They are prophets of gloom and doom who qo out and upset the people - MR. TOBIN: That is right. MR.

HEARN: - instead of corning in here with some solid suggestions saying, 'Look, if you want to do something to alleviate the situation out there, here is what you can do.' How many worthwhile suggestions have come from that side of the House? It is great to be able to criticize,but if you cannot criticize positively, especially in the face of the serious situations we are facing right now, I .suggest critic isms would be better kept to themselves. Mr. Chairman, nobody realizes more than rnyself,in the district that I am in, the problems that w·e have today in this Province.

Nobody realizes the effect of this extra taxation, the effect of layoffs, the effect of plant close downs, the effect of poor fisheries on the ordinary people than myself. I consider myself to be one of them. So the gentlemen across do not have to accuse me of slighting the poor people. I have no intention o£ doing tha,t. I carne in here to work for the poor people and this is exactly what I intend to do. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : The han. the member for Fogo. MR .

TULK: M~, Chairrnan 1 !1: thin!~: the hon,. gentleman should also realize something, that I have never 6366

December 2, 1982 Tape 3024 Et: