1973 Legislative Session: 2nd Session, 30th Parliament

HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes

only.

The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY

(Hansard)

MONDAY, APRIL 2, 1973

Night Sitting

[ Page 2041 ]

CONTENTS

Routine proceedings

Ocean Falls Corporation Act (Bill No. 164).

Hon. Mr.

Williams. Introduction and first reading — 2041

Ocean Falls Corporation Appropriation Act (Bill No. 165).

Hon. Mr. Williams. Introduction and first reading — 2041

An Act Respecting the Fluoridation of Water Supplies. (Bill

No. 170).

Mr. McGeer. Introduction and first reading — 2041

Committee of supply: Department of Commercial Transport

estimates.

Mr. Fraser — 2041

Hon. Mr. Lorimer — 2042

Mr. D.A. Anderson — 2042

Mr. Richter — 2044

Hon. Mr. Lorimer — 2044

Mr. Williams — 2045

Hon. Mr. Lorimer — 2046

Mr. Chabot — 2046

Hon. Mr. Lorimer 2046

Hon. Mr. Hartley — 2046

Mr. D.A. Anderson — 2047

Hon. Mr. Lorimer — 2048

Mr. D.A. Anderson — 2048

Hon. Mr. Bennett — 2048

Mrs. Jordan — 2048

Mr. Phillips — 2049

Mr. Smith — 2050

Hon. Mr. Lorimer — 2051

Mr. Richter — 2052

Mr. D.A. Anderson — 2052

Department of Provincial Secretary estimates.

Mr. McClelland — 2053

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2054

Mr. Phillips — 2055

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2056

Mr. Wallace — 2057

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2057

Mr. Fraser — 2058

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2058

Mr. Chabot — 2058

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2059

Mr. Phillips — 2059

Mr. Smith — 2059

Hon. Mr. Hail — 2059

Mr. Radford — 2060

Mr. McClelland — 2060

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2060

Mr. Smith — 2060

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2061

Mr. Morrison — 2061

Department of Travel Industry estimates.

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2062

MONDAY, APRIL 2, 1973

The House met at 8:30 p.m.

Introduction of bills.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Lands, Forests and Water

Resources.

HON. R.A. WILLIAMS (Minister of Lands, Forest and Water Resources):

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.

OCEAN FALLS CORPORATION ACT

MR. SPEAKER: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor transmits

herewith a bill intituled the Ocean Falls Corporation Act and

recommends the same to the Legislative Assembly, Government

House, March 30, 1973.

Bill No. 164 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be

placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting of the House after today.

HON. MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present

a second message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.

OCEAN FALLS CORPORATION

APPROPRIATION ACT

MR. SPEAKER: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor transmits

herewith a bill intituled the Ocean Falls Corporation

Appropriation Act and recommends the same to the Legislative

Assembly, Government House, March 30, 1973.

Bill No. 165 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be

placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next

sitting of the House after today.

AN ACT RESPECTING THE

FLUORIDATION OF WATER SUPPLIES

Mr. McGeer moves introduction and first reading of Bill No.

170 intituled

An Act Respecting the Fluoridation of Water

Supplies .

Motion approved.

Bill No. 170 read a first time and ordered to be placed on

orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the

House after today.

Orders of the day.

House in committee of supply; Mr. Dent in the chair.

ESTIMATES, DEPARTMENT OF

COMMERCIAL TRANSPORT

On vote 41: Minister's office, $9,5000.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Cariboo.

MR. A.V. FRASER (Cariboo): A few short questions to the

Minister, through you Mr. Chairman. First of all, the

commercial transport department is pretty well the police

department of the Department of Highways. I might say, in first

comment, that things in this department have improved quite

considerably over the last 12 or 18 months but there's still

room for lots of improvement.

I'm particularly concerned about the logging truck industry

in the province. If they can't operate economically, our whole

timber industry is affected. In some cases, it seems to me that

there are some excessive tickets issued to this

section of the

highway traffic. I specifically refer to cutting back on

extended route permits that have always existed. I know that

they were introduced at one time to look after this industry.

When they finally have to get back to the ordinary regulations,

it's going to have a very hard effect on the logging truck

hauling.

In the interval, it seems that everybody is after these

people, who are mostly individual operators owning their own

units and trying to make a living. It's a tough living. They

have to work from 4 o'clock in the morning till midnight to

make things go. Maybe there's something wrong in the rates

they're getting.

I can't understand why the scales are always issuing no end

of tickets. If the scales of the commercial transport

department don't get them, the RCMP get them for other

infractions that are, in my opinion, quite minor.

The greatest amount of logging hauled over our highway

system is done in the wintertime. In the interior of the

province, in the wintertime, I'm sure that these people are not

affecting the roads to any degree. They have six feet of frost

as an average. Everybody is excited about the damage that

they're doing to the roads but I can't see how they do that. I

realize that the Department of Highways have some inadequate

bridges that they're trying to protect, but my answer to that

is, "Fix the bridges."

I would like to hear, through you Mr. Chairman, what the

Department of Commercial Transport sees as the future for the

logging truck industry, as it pertains to operating on public

roads in the province. I'm not talking about private roads.

There's no problem there.

[ Page 2042 ]

I'd also like to know, Mr. Chairman, if any discussions have

taken place to invoke what we call "industry weighing." That

would mean that the logging trucks would be weighed where they

unload. They're all weighed there now for stumpage purposes

through the forestry department. Why can't the regulations be

enforced that way, so that these people will not have the

double enforcement of going through the weigh scale system.

Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Commercial

Transport.

HON. J.G. LORIMER (Minister of Commercial Transport): I

think that the problem you've raised exists in certain areas of

the province. I'll be the first to admit that there have been

certain problems in the Quesnel area. It's more a problem of

personalities, I think, than of hauling logs.

One of the basic problems is that most of these loggers are

contract loggers working for companies. They have a contract

under which it's very difficult for them to make the payments

on the truck and so on and so forth and carry legal limits. As

a result, in order to make their margin of profit, they

overload their trucks and are eventually picked up and charged,

as you say.

The answer may possibly be that the contracts signed by the

loggers with the major companies should be looked at. It seems

to me that under the contracts being signed, it's almost

impossible for a contract logger to make a good living if he

has to make large payments for trucks and so on.

The trucks are allowed a certain weight depending on the

number of axles in the vehicle. They have a fairly wide

tolerance — it's 1,500 pounds over an axle in most logging

trucks. I suggest that most loggers and truckers can tell

pretty well, within a reasonable number of pounds, what their

weights are.

I realize that it's a problem in certain areas. I don't

think the solution is to increase the weight limits. I don't

think that's the answer. Once you increase the weight limits,

then you're up against the problems of strengthening bridges,

highway construction and so on. Then it's also a question of

safety. I don't anticipate any major change in the next short

while regarding the limits.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Second Member for

Victoria.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON (Victoria): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like

to make some inquiries regarding the purchase of equipment under the various

votes of the Minister of Commercial Transport. The problem arises in light of

the regrettable practice of purchasing without tenders, which took place in

the case of B.C. Hydro buses. As there are two areas

in these votes under Commercial Transport where motor vehicles are being purchased,

I'd like to find out what procedures will be followed: whether tenders will

be called; whether there will be handing out of contracts to government controlled

corporations in other provinces without information in the hands of the public

about these contracts; or whether we can expect normal, straightforward tendering.

I raise this issue, of course, because of the problem that

exists with B.C. Hydro buses. We had a situation there where,

despite requests…

HON. MR. LORIMER: If you had stayed in this afternoon, you

would have heard the answer.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Yes, I heard.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Perhaps you'd like to comment on whether

or not a bus is a commercial vehicle and whether we're

discussing commercial transport. Would you like to comment on

that?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The matter which the Member is

referring to was canvassed last thing this afternoon. However,

he may allude to it as long as it's relevant to his comments

about these estimates.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, whether or not a bus happens to be

commercial transport or not is the question I'm posing to you,

Mr. Chairman. I would say it is. As you know, quite often until

the Minister has finished his full estimates, there are things

which come up again and again. And I presume I can continue my

comments on this area as a bus happens to be commercial

transport.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, certainly, so long as they allude to

these estimates, and so long as they don't repeat arguments or

questions that were already canvassed this afternoon.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, the problem is, Mr. Chairman, that

it is very difficult to get information on this. I have sent

letters to the Minister requesting the specifications, for

example, of the Hydro contract, and I have not received the

information requested. I have requested that the correspondence

be made public on the Hydro contract, the correspondence between the government and the various companies concerned and

once again, it hasn't been made public. It hasn't been

released.

Here we have an issue where we have many millions of dollars

of public money handed out to a corporation in Manitoba which

has been under very sharp criticism in Manitoba for the fact

that the

[ Page 2043 ]

contracts are given without tenders there.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. I would point out to the Hon. Member

that this subject was canvassed in some depth late this

afternoon…

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Oh, I know it was.

MR. CHAIRMAN: …under the estimates of the Department of

Municipal Affairs, and I would ask him to relate his comments

directly to the estimates that are before us, Commercial

Transport.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, again my question goes back to the

first question I posed. Do you regard buses as commercial

transport, Mr. Chairman?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The point is, Mr. Member, that you must

discuss the areas of administrative responsibility in this

particular department as they are outlined in these

estimates.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Yes, but is it commercial transport?

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would point out to the Hon. Member that the

Chair is not called on to make that kind of judgment as to

whether a bus is commercial transport. The point that I am

called upon to determine is whether or not you are discussing

matters relevant to these estimates.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I will then proceed

on the grounds that in my assumption a bus is commercial

transport, and I trust I will not run afoul of your ruling, Mr.

Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, providing they are under the

administrative competence of this particular department.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: So, in any event we have here contracts

that are dealing with vehicles…

HON. D. BARRETT (Premier): No, this department doesn't

purchase buses.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, if you will look Mr. Premier — you are so well

versed in what your Ministers are buying — you will find two items under these

votes on this, dealing with the purchase of machinery and equipment — No. 029,

motor vehicles and accessories. What I want to find out is whether

this differs, or whether or not we are going to have the same underhand

method of purchasing that took place in the case of B.C. Hydro buses.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would draw to the attention of the Hon.

Member that the administrative responsibilities of this

department do not include the purchase of buses. They do

concern registration, the Weighscale Branch and so forth. I

would ask him to keep his comments relevant to the actual

responsibilities of this department.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Right, Mr. Chairman, and under this

Engineering Branch and Weighscale Branch there are two items

for the purchase of motor vehicles and accessories. They total,

not an enormous amount, but a certain amount of money. What I

want to know is whether or not in this area we are going to

follow good practices, business practices, good government

purchasing practices of sending things out to tender, or

whether or not we are going to follow the procedure established

in the case of B.C. Hydro where the public was required to pay

substantially more money to satisfy political objectives of the

government. I feel, in my view, it is a perfectly legitimate

question to put under these two items.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I would say that the Hon. Member may

discuss the specific items contained under here, but not speak

of the thing in a general sense, applying to other departments

or other purchases by the government.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, it's under the same Minister. I

raised the question because we have been thoroughly

dissatisfied by the failure to provide information on other

purchases. I would like to know in future, in dealing with

these two estimates for the year coming up, the fiscal year

ending March 31, 1974, whether or not we are going to have

tendering for the tax-paying members of the public of British

Columbia who might be interested in tendering, offering to

supply, or whether or not we are simply going to be in the

situation of handouts to Manitoba-owned companies or other

companies controlled by NDP governments elsewhere…

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I don't think that the comments

are particularly relevant to the estimates. We are considering

vote 41, I would point out, and the point that you were going

to discuss this under, I believe, would come up more

appropriately under vote 43.

[ Page 2044 ]

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, fine. I thought that the Minister's

estimates for the Department of Commercial Transport would

cover the Engineering Branch and the Weighscale Branch, but I

would be quite willing to repeat my arguments later in the

debate if you wish. Would you prefer that?

MR. CHAIRMAN: If they are germane to these particular

sections when they come up.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Fine. I'll repeat them then, Mr. Chairman, as soon

as you get to vote 43.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Boundary-Similkameen.

MR. F.X. RICHTER (Boundary-Similkameen): Just a few remarks

and questions in relation to this department, which I had the

privilege of administering earlier. In many people's minds this

is not a very important department, but I must say that is is

an extremely important department because of the safety factor

which is paramount in the administration of this

department.

Now this applies to a number of very important pieces of

legislation: the Railway Act , also in relation to and in

conjunction to the Motor Vehicles Branch — motor carriers, et

cetera…the safety of those trucks…the air brake courses

in which the drivers must have certificates which qualify them

for the use of air brakes; the Pipelines Act — and of course we

have those installations, aerial tramways and ski lifts which

come under the Railway Act .

Now, in relation to the regulations and the examinations

under the Railway Act for the operation of ski lifts, aerial

tramways such as that at Hell's Gate on the Fraser Canyon and

the area of mining tramways and the railways themselves, I

wonder if the Minister could tell us something about what has

happened in the past year in relation to the examinations that

have taken place on the various railway lines.

I know this applies mainly to the B.C. Railway — also various

railways in relation to amusement parks, the railway over at

Fort Steele, and so on — but what has been the experience in

the past year in relation to these railways? I know the area

between Fort Nelson and Fort St. John is difficult terrain to

go through. I know that there is an equally difficult terrain

going through from Fort St. James through to Deas Lake.

In the field of trucking, what is happening in relation to the growth of the

trucking industry? Now, when I was in the Minister's particular area of jurisdiction,

we did have a very rapid growth in the use of commercial vehicles. Of course

this is an area which is getting a lot of attention today because of the fact

that their loads can be set off at various way points, maybe some considerable

distance from railways.

This is going to be a growing industry. Is the Minister

getting pressure to increase the size of vehicles over the 8

foot 6 inches? Also is the Minister getting pressure from

people wanting to move rather wide loads, such as boats and so

on 14 feet wide, mobile homes and also modular homes? I think

that is enough questions on that one.

Now to pipelines. Certainly I had an experience in relation

to pipelines. We had rather an area of neglect over a number of

years in getting a set plan of all the various pipelines,

whether they were main pipelines or whether they were just

feeder lines coming into main lines. The department was

undertaking a rather extensive mapping programme. Has this been

completed? Or are you making good progress along this line?

Now, I think probably my main concern tonight in relation to

the proposed pipeline to supply natural gas to Vancouver Island

for, let us say, a number of reasons is the environment, the

saving of the ecology, the use of a B.C. resource, and to give

a supply of domestic natural gas to the people here on

Vancouver Island. This seems to be a particular part of British

Columbia that is difficult to give some of these services to.

Nonetheless, in my mind it is important that people be afforded

the opportunity to have a source of supply.

The aerial tramways in relation to the ski resource were

growing very, very rapidly. Has this growth continued, or has

it decelerated? Because we are getting enough areas for skiing

for the amount of skiing pressure that we have.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Commercial

Transport.

HON. MR. LORIMER: Regarding the driver training programme:

the programme is continuing in the same way as it has been. It

may be that it needs further beefing up; it may not be adequate

for the number of jobs that seem to be coming available for

truck drivers. We are looking at that and the programme that

you are familiar with is still continuing.

Regarding what we have done on railways: in the annual

report that was filed we have all the particulars of what went

on. In the British Columbia Railway there was a considerable

mileage of ties removed and replaced. There were a number of

improvements last year in the weight of the rail. I haven't the

particulars of the whole situation right with me but they are

in the annual report.

The commercial vehicle growth: it is true that it is growing

very rapidly and the growth of 1972 over 1971 was quite large.

Of course, the pressure to move wide vehicles is very extreme

at certain times of the year and to date we have resisted all

pressures. There

[ Page 2045 ]

has been none allowed up until now.

The mapping programme on pipelines is continuing but is not

completed. The question of the pipeline to Vancouver Island is

still a question of discussion — I'm not able to make any

announcement tonight regarding the plans for the pipeline for

natural gas.

Now, the ski lift is another problem. It is a big problem in

that there are many more going in every year, as you know, and

that is continuing. Now, as far as the Second Member for

Victoria (Mr. D.A. Anderson) is concerned, I'll just mention

that I'm surprised at him raising the questions that were

covered at great length this afternoon. For his own

information, a bus is a commercial transport vehicle but a bus

trolley coach is not.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for West

Vancouver–Howe Sound.

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS (West Vancouver–Howe Sound): Thank you,

Mr. Chairman. There are a couple of serious questions to be

asked about this particular vote. A year ago we had no Minister

and we still don't have one, I guess. We had no secretary and

we still don't have one, but we had a Ministerial executive

assistant at the salary of $12,960 a year. Now, this year we

have no executive assistant but, strangely enough, for all

these non-people the office expense has risen from $350 to

$2,500 and the travelling expense for these non-people has risen

from $3,500 to $7,000. Mr. Chairman, I think it is demanding of

an answer from the Minister when we have no Minister receiving

a salary, no secretary, no executive assistant, yet suddenly

the office expense has gone up almost tenfold and the travelling

expense for these people has doubled.

I know the answer will come back, "Oh well, these are all

worked out." But you look at the Minister of Municipal Affairs

and he has an office expense and a travelling expense for his

staff. I just think it is wrong that we have votes placed

before this committee with no people in the Minister's office

at all and yet somehow or other we are going to spend $7,000

moving them around the province or around this country.

This is the kind of budgeting and the kind of financial

estimating that we should not be having in this province at

this particular time. It is a lot of money — not very much in a

$2 million budget, but it is still a lot of net dollars for the

expenditure, without any real indication of the purpose of the

expenditure in these estimates. Maybe the Minister can answer

the question as to why we are spending $7,000 for travelling

expense for non-people.

In preparing myself for the debate on this department I read back over the

speeches of the Hon. Member for Surrey (Hon. Mr. Hall) who spoke so

eloquently on the Department of Commercial Transport. Having carefully

reviewed them I think I can distill them into a few pointed questions like,

What are you doing about the safety of commercial vehicles in this province?

You can talk about all these flexible load limits for axles and so on, but can

you assure us that your department is really on top of the safety problem?

Through my constituency increasing numbers of these logging

trucks are moving on the rather dangerous highway between the

Pemberton Valley and Squamish. Anyone who has driven over that

highway will know it to be a mountain road with sharp bends, a

very narrow road surface and in some places no shoulder at all.

I must commend the drivers of these vehicles for the skill they

display in moving along that highway. Nonetheless, it is

dangerous and the number of vehicles using this are increasing

year by year. It's creating a serious safety hazard because

there are also vast increases in the number of private

passenger vehicles moving along these roads.

I think we are entitled to know the extent to which the

Department of Commercial Transport is maintaining surveillance

on highways of this kind. How often are we checking the

vehicles that move along these highways? Fortunately there have

not been many fatal accidents, but to what extent do you

maintain an examination of the condition of the vehicles and

the certification of the drivers?

We have throughout the province — turning to another matter

under this department — a number of weighscales. I am sure they

are very actively engaged but I must say that in my experience

almost every time I go past one there is a sign saying,

"Closed." If you look at the one on the south side of the Deas

Island Tunnel, it seems to be perpetually closed. You follow

the sign and it says, "Move forward to next axle. Stop. Back

up. Bring papers. Go to jail. Move to Park Avenue…

(Laughter). It's like a Monopoly game. I wonder if it is run

from the Minister's office in Victoria or if there really is

anybody who makes that weighstation function. Maybe it is part

of the non-people we have in the Minister's office.

Maybe this seems humorous, but the fact of the matter is

that without these weighscales and without competent, constant

supervision, what happens to all the vehicles that move past

when they are closed? Where do you catch them? I have heard

many speeches by the Member for Surrey (Hon. Mr. Hall) when he

was in Opposition, before he was gagged, speaking about the

opportunities there are to bypass these weighscales by taking

devious routes through the municipalities in the lower

mainland. I think we are entitled to know what the Minister is

doing to rectify these serious problems that the Member for

Surrey earlier laid before the previous Minister. Perhaps some

of the non-people in this office can answer these

questions.

[ Page 2046 ]

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Commercial

Transport.

HON. MR. LORIMER: The answer to the first question as to why

these figures are here, is a difficult one to answer. Dealing

with the second question…(Laughter). In the Horseshoe Bay

area and Pemberton area, we do have portable weighscales set up

periodically and the area is patrolled reasonably well. There

is no permanent scale there, that is true, but there are

portable scales out there.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MR. LORIMER: It varies but they are probably averaging

about once every two weeks. That's not necessarily every two

weeks — it may be twice one week and then three weeks, and so

on. It is scattered.

The other question about most of the scale offices being

closed most of the time: I don't think it is that accurate, but

I know they are closed quite frequently. It is a question of

the number of people to man them that causes them to be closed.

They are opened at staggered hours in order that people will

not know ahead of time when a station is closed and when it is

open. The problem in that is that there is not enough staff at

the present moment to have these stations open 24 hours a

day.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Columbia

River.

MR. J.R. CHABOT (Columbia River): Just a brief question, Mr.

Chairman, relative to the safety of the British Columbia

Railway. I am rather surprised, of course, that the Member for

Fort George (Mr. Nunweiler) isn't raising this question, but in

view of the fact that he's not prepared to do so, I will do so

on his behalf, because he has made some serious allegations and

charges about the efficiency and safety of the B.C.

Railway.

I'm wondering whether you consider, Mr. Minister, through

you Mr. Chairman, that the trackage is inferior, the rail is

too light, the bridge structures need examination and

replacement — whether you are prepared, Mr. Minister, to go

ahead with the investigations he has suggested, whether an

enquiry will take place relative to the safety conditions of

B.C. Railway. Those were serious allegations. I'm wondering

whether this is a fact and, if it is a fact, when an

investigation will take place.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Commercial

Transport.

HON. MR. LORIMER: Well, the railway is being inspected regularly. There's,

no railway that's completely safe. I'd like to see a lot of improvements on

the railway, and they're coming about piece by piece — rail by rail, tie by

tie. There has to be improvements; some of the bridges have to be replaced.

It's not as good as it's going to be, but it will be improved continually.

MR. CHABOT: A supplementary question, Mr. Chairman. The

Minister has stated that some bridges on the B.C. Railway are

unsafe. I don't think you should be allowing train crews to

travel over those bridges if they're unsafe. I want to know

which bridges are unsafe and when those bridges will be

replaced. Also, if the track is too light to carry the tonnage

which is presently being carried on the B.C. Railway, when are

you going to improve the trackage — the size of the trackage —

or cut down the size of the trains?

MR. LORIMER: I did not say that the bridges were unsafe. I

said that the…

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MR. BARRETT: You don't want the answers eh?

HON. MR. LORIMER: I understand there was a bridge that caved

in there a year or so ago — Blueberry Creek or something. But in

any event there are improvements that have to be made and will

be made on the whole run. The Blueberry bridge, I understand,

has to be replaced due to the fact that it caved in last year.

But as far as the rest of the railway…it's safe for the

loads that are running, and it's being improved.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Public

Works.

HON. W.L. HARTLEY (Minister of Public Works): Mr. Speaker,

that ex-Minister of Labour really has a very empty ring in this

voice tonight. Very empty. A good bit of the B.C. Railways runs

up through the Yale-Lillooet riding.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

HON. MR. HARTLEY: Yes, those rotten ties. You bet. That's

right. Mr. Speaker, the ex-Premier instructed the Member for

Cariboo (Mr. Fraser) to get up and say we were lying. And then

that very night, a train runs off and goes through a home and

almost kills a baby in bed. This is what was going on with

those fellows…last year everything was hunky-dory. They

couldn't get their train rolling in 20 years

[ Page 2047 ]

— we've had less than six months and here they're trying to

hold us responsible, and we are responsible.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

HON. MR. HARTLEY: That's right. No I thought, Mr. Chairman,

that they really stooped to a low — they wait until one who has

walked out and then they said that was a lie about the track.

The engineer who took me over that railroad died a very short

time after of a heart attack at age 37. So I agree we have a

great responsibility to see that we have a first class road

bed. But these gentlemen and one lady argue with a very hollow

voice on these matters when they completely ignored the

conditions for 20 years and then expect us to repair it

overnight.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

HON. MR. HARTLEY: We know we're good. We know we have a

first class Minister of Commercial Transport, but give us a

little more time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Second Member for

Victoria.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Not a point of

order — come on!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the Hon. Member for Victoria be seated,

please.

MRS. P.J. JORDAN (North Okanagan): The Hon. Member for

Yale-Lillooet (Hon. Mr. Hartley) accused the former Premier of

instructing Members of this House to lie, and I would ask him,

on his behalf, to withdraw that statement. I'm surprised that

the Chairman let it rest.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It's not a point of order.

MR. CHABOT: It's a point of order and you better believe it

is.

MRS. JORDAN: Mr. Chairman, if we go through Hansard , we'll

find numerous occasions where you have asked for such

statements to be withdrawn. I would ask you to ask that Member

to withdraw that statement.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would rule that it's not a point of order. I

recognize the Hon. Second Member for Victoria.

MR. CHABOT: That Minister doesn't know what the truth is

anyway.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, order. I'll ask the Hon. Second Member

for Victoria to proceed, and I would ask the Hon. Members on

both sides of the House to please not become personal in their

comments.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: The point that I want to raise under the

Department of Commercial Transport is the question of

conversion to propane in an attempt to cut down on air

pollution, particularly in the greater Vancouver area. It's

something that follows up the budget of course, where there

were certain tax concessions given.

Interjections by some Hon. Members .(Laughter).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I ruled that there was no point

of order, I asked the Hon. Second Member for Victoria to

proceed.

AN HON. MEMBER: Wild Bill from over the hill.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Mr. Chairman, back in February — early February of

this year, a Mr. Price, who is chairman of the taxation sub-committee of the

Propane Gas Association of Canada, sent us all a letter. There is one sentence

in it which I think is relevant here. It was: "that we know that fleets of taxis, buses, in-town delivery trucks

and government vehicles account for more than 25 per cent of the traffic in

urban areas, and correspondingly, are responsible for that amount of vehicle-caused

air pollution."

The questions I would like to put to the Minister, in view

of the fact that there is a substantial amount of air pollution

caused by commercial vehicles and government vehicles…

I had a conversation with Dueck in Vancouver, and they told

me about the propane fleet that they have. They told me that

the pollution is much less than gasoline and much better than

diesel — the efficiency of the engines is no power loss if

proper carburetion is used. The mileage, they said, would be

about the same per gallon as gasoline and better than diesel.

Engine life would be about the same as diesel and three times

as long as with gas. Safety, they say, is the same — it's no

more explosive than gas. Indeed, in a tank it is safer than gas

because of a closed system. They pointed out that capital costs

are actually less.

This is borne out by material I received from a company, Mr.

Chairman, which was looking forward to tendering for B.C. Hydro

buses, but was unfortunately barred from doing so by the

preference for no tenders from our Manitoba NDP friends. The

Wells Wayne Corporation can deliver a bus in B.C. at $43,943

maximum cost in B.C. — that's the diesel one — yet a propane

one is $39,943 — a $4,000

[ Page 2048 ]

difference which shows that propane definitely has a

substantial advantage in terms of capital costs. Unfortunately

neither figure had much relevance to B.C. Hydro, because they

weren't allowed to tender in any event. But capital cost is

down over the other methods.

Dueck went on to tell me that the General Telephone Company

converted all its vehicles — 2,000 to 3,000 — to propane. There

are 1,600 buses in Chicago which are propane powered. They

talked about the State of Washington which is beginning to

convert to propane.

So my question to the Minister, as a bus is a commercial

vehicle and presumably buses are involved in this case, is what

steps other than the tax concession are being made to try and

make sure that we get more use of propane in commercial

vehicles in British Columbia?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Commercial

Transport.

HON. MR. LORIMER: There's no authority on the Minister of

Commercial Transport to order anyone to use propane fuel in

commercial vehicles at the present time under the Act. The

reduction of taxation which is proceeding in being discussed in

the House under the bill before us has made it somewhat

interesting to some companies to go into the propane field. But

as a Minister, I have no power to order anyone to use

propane.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Second Member for

Victoria.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Under the general heading of Commercial

Transport, I wonder if any studies are being done. Is there any

interest being shown by his department? I'm sure that that

would be preliminary to granting you, Mr. Minister, through you

Mr. Chairman, powers under this House for any orders that might

be made. But are studies being done on this so that air

pollution, particularly in large urban centres, can be cut

down? Certainly we don't expect you to indicate that you're

ordering people to do this thing, although, of course, you

could perhaps influence B.C. Hydro — had you not rushed into

your earlier contract without tender.

HON. MR. LORIMER: Well, up to this time apparently, there

are no studies going on, but I will certainly take it under

advisement. It might be a reasonable idea.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Leader of the

Opposition.

HON. W.A.C. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to say how pleased I was to get a memo.

It isn't perhaps usual to comment on memos in the House, but

this one will do no harm, so I think I should quote it. It's

from the Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Hartley) to Mr.

W.A.C. B.: "You can't say we didn't have good communications,

can you?" Signed.

I want to thank the Minister of Public Works or the Speaker

or whoever's responsible for putting the intercom in my office,

because I can listen to these debates. I listen to them all the

time.

I want to say that I was amazed at my good friend from

Yale-Lillooet (Hon. Mr. Hartley). I asked him to stay in the

House because I would bring it up.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MR. BENNETT: Oh, yes. But you're out sometimes too. And

that's why you put in the intercom. If you didn't expect the

Leader of the Opposition to be out sometimes doing his work,

why did you put the intercom in my office? It was there without

my request. You did it and I thank you for it. I'm not finding

fault there.

But, I do say that in my whole 30-some years in public life

in this province at no time did I ever suggest that anybody

tell a lie. I never told a single one of my colleagues, anybody

in the Opposition, anyone in my constituency, anyone in the

province anywhere to do so. I am amazed that my good friend

from Yale-Lillooet would say that on the floor of the House. I

am sure he must have been just kidding along or something.

But if he meant it, then he should either withdraw it — he

should withdraw it anyway — or say it out in the hall. And I'll

tell you this: I'll never withdraw in stopping an action,

because I'll sue him right away.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I am sure the Hon. Minister of

Public Works will be pleased to hear that he was mistaken. I

recognize the Hon. Member for North Okanagan.

MRS. JORDAN: Mr. Chairman, before I discuss this matter with

the Minister, I'd like to clarify a point: do federal

government vehicles register in any way with your Department of

Commercial Transport when they're operating in British

Columbia?

HON. MR. LORIMER: We'll get it for you.

MRS. JORDAN: Perhaps I might tell him why I wish to ask. I

really want him to do a little blackmailing.

We have a very tragic situation, which I am sure

[ Page 2049 ]

has been duplicated in British Columbia, but I happen to be

involved in one where a young university student was struck by

a federal vehicle in downtown Vancouver. He suffered

concussion, went to the hospital, was hospitalized and released

after a few days. He went back to his studies, had a relapse,

was re-hospitalized and is now home recuperating after quite a

serious area of concern and may well have residual health

problems.

In British Columbia, as the Minister is aware, we have

no-fault insurance and in such an incident the young man would

have been compensated immediately. This is not the case with

the federal government. On behalf of his family I have applied

myself and have also directed them to apply to our Attorney General (Hon. Mr. Macdonald) for some assistance. The

Attorney General's department has stated that the only recourse

that he is aware of is that they must use litigation.

Now these people are orchardists and are not financially

well off. The thought of going to court and embarking on

litigation is distressing to them, both financially and

emotionally.

What I really would like to ask the Minister is, if I give

him the details of this case and if there is a registration of

federal vehicles in British Columbia, would he please (1) use

that registration in order to secure a legitimate and well

advised settlement as by our own B.C. Insurance board for this

boy without litigation and (2) could he use it as a vehicle to

insist that the federal government carry the same no-fault

insurance or something comparable so that when people in

British Columbia are involved with either a car accident or a

personal injury with any federal vehicle, that they don't have

to use the recourse of litigation and all its costs and

problems?

HON. MR. LORIMER: As your solicitor I would recommend suit;

but as the Minister, I would say that I am quite sure that the

federal government doesn't go through our department when they

bring their vehicles into this province.

I will be very happy to look into the case if you give me

the details so that we can proceed.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for South Peace

River.

MR. D.M. PHILLIPS (South Peace River): Mr. Chairman, I have

a couple of questions for the Minister of Commercial

Transport.

First of all, I'd like to say that the weighscales in our

area are very seldom closed. As a matter of fact, I think they

work overtime. I don't know whether it's to protect the

highways or to make sure they get those dollar bills at the

border. We have a very strategic border crossing at Tupper and

with the…

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR. PHILLIPS: Coming in from Alberta — it's on the

Alberta-B.C. border.

With the amount of growth that is taking place in the Yukon

and up in the Mackenzie area and the oil drilling that was

taking place before this government sort of put a halt to it,

we have run into some problems there at the border, Mr.

Minister.

It seems to me that these truckers can haul heavy loads all

the way from Edmonton and Calgary. When they get to the

Alberta-B.C. border, bingo! They come to a grinding halt. I've

had phone calls in the middle of the night to see if I could

get some of the stuff moving.

One of the problems, of course, is that British Columbia

controls about 83 miles of the Alaska Highway. From then on

they have to go to Whitehorse to get extra-wide passes and so

forth. I'd like to ask the Minister if he would get together

with the Department of Highways and see if we can't get

together with the Alberta commercial transport people so that

these loads can move from Edmonton right through to Whitehorse

without running into these snags.

There's going to be a great deal more truck transport over

this route, Mr. Minister, as the Yukon develops. If the

Mackenzie pipeline goes ahead, we're going to have some real

problems.

I realize that there is one bridge…and you are going to

have to get together with the Minister of Highways and make

sure that that bridge is replaced. Because if I get phone calls

in the middle of the night I'm going to get somebody's phone

number and I'll just be transferring the messages on.

Another thing I'd like to bring to the Minister's attention,

Mr. Chairman — and this I've argued in this House before — why

can't we do away with "H" plates for farm trucks? Why is it

necessary for a farmer who wants to haul his own grain to be

licensed with an "H" plate, particularly on a 3-ton truck? I

don't think it's necessary to have this rigamarole. I've

claimed for some years that I didn't think it was necessary and

I'd like to see it completely done away with.

The trucks and equipment are getting bigger — a 3-ton truck

now is about equivalent to what a 1-ton used to be, it seems to

me, when you are hauling merchandise. The roads are improved,

the tires are improved — everything in the truck's improved.

I'd like to see this particular form of taxation done away with

completely.

Now my friend from the Cariboo (Mr. Fraser) mentioned

logging trucks. Sometimes we think that there are men on the

weighscales who harass these logging truck operators — and in

my area there are certainly more individual truckers than

company-owned trucks. I think maybe next year we should

[ Page 2050 ]

start early early in the fall — when the logging season

starts, and it's a relatively short season. Last year it was

shorter because of the wet fall. These fellows have to go like

the merry winds in the winter in order to keep the payments up

on these big trucks. I think next fall we should instigate some

sort of alarm system whereby the first time that the weighscale

man finds one of these truckers overloaded he sends out a

signal maybe to the Deputy Minister or to the MLA so that

when he gets caught and he comes crying on our shoulders we'll

be able to say, "Well, you were warned so many times." Maybe

even the Deputy Minister could send him a warning.

These fellows are certainly going to haul as many logs as

they can. They're going to make as much money as they can. They

find it hard to understand why they have to be penalized,

particularly as in many cases they are not going over a bridge

and the road is frozen so they could carry ten times as much

without really hurting the road surface at all.

I'd like the Minister to advise me whether he is getting

good cooperation with the federal officials in the Yukon on

loads moving up the Alaska Highway.

Another thing I'd like to ask the Minister about, Mr.

Chairman, is if he would bring in some sort of rules and

regulations with regard to moving mobile homes. In Alberta they

will not allow mobile homes to be moved unless the pilot cars

comply with certain regulations, such as the size of the light

and two-way radios et cetera. Mobile homes, I think we'll all

have to agree, are here to stay. As long as mobile homes are

here to stay, they're going to be moved from place to place.

That is the very idea of a mobile home.

Mr. Minister, I think we should have certain safety

regulations — specifically, any car acting as a pilot car

should have a two-way radio in it. It may happen, when there's

a bend in the road and the pilot car is ahead of the mobile

home, that there's an accident on the road or a heavy flow of

traffic coming. Maybe this comes under the Motor Vehicle

Branch, but I think it should really come under your

department, Mr. Minister. Maybe you would advise me if you will

take some action in that regard.

The other thing I'd like to ask you, Mr. Minister is this:

are you going to be in charge of the new British Columbia

government cable television setup? Is that going to come under

your department or some other department? Would you answer

that?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The Hon. Member's last comment

is not in order. I recognize the Hon. Member for North Peace

River.

MR. D.E. SMITH (North Peace River): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have just a few questions for the Hon. Minister concerning

his duties with regard to commercial transport.

The first one I think I should address to the Hon. Minister

is what are you doing about the supply of natural gas to

Vancouver Island? When can we anticipate that that event will

take place? What is taking place with regard to the idea of a

natural gas pipeline to service Vancouver Island? It's one of

the important parts of the province. The question has been

asked a number of times and, while I wasn't in the House a few

minutes ago, I haven't heard an answer to it yet.

HON. MR. LORIMER: I'll answer it again.

MR. SMITH: I think that is one question to which all the

residents of British Columbia would like an answer. Secondly, I

would like to concur with the remarks of the Hon. Member for

South Peace River (Mr. Phillips) concerning the problems of

inter-provincial highway regulations.

As you know, Mr. Minister, we live very close to the

Province of Alberta. A large segment of the trucking volume

that comes through our area originates in Alberta, particularly

with respect to the delivery of mobile homes and, in more

recent months, the delivery of pipe for a pipeline construction

project. There is a problem with respect to the regulations in

Alberta and the regulations in British Columbia.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I believe the Hon. Member for

South Peace River just posed that question and the Minister…

MR. SMITH: No, not in the same light. He talked about mobile

homes. I'm going on to something else here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If you're going to add something to it, go

ahead.

MR. SMITH: The problem is that in some areas there is more

latitude in our regulations than in Alberta's; in some other

areas, the reverse is true. We run into the situation where

trucks are stopped at the border for indefinite periods of

time.

What I'd like to suggest to the Minister is this: surely to

goodness there must be some way of communicating with the

Province of Alberta and trying to get regulations a little

closer to the same standard. I'm not suggesting that we relax

our regulations because I realize that the protection of

highways is of prime importance. But at least we should have

some means of communication between the two provinces so that

if a load leaves Edmonton and its destination happens to be the

Territories, it will have reasonable assurance that it will get

through the Province of British Columbia without any

problem.

[ Page 2051 ]

The other thing is that we have permitted trucks working

beyond our provincial boundaries to go through the Province of

British Columbia on a permit basis. They come in from Alberta,

through northern British Columbia and on up into the

Territories. But Alberta is not really cooperating in a

reciprocal manner. This, of course, is making a lot of the

truckers from our part of the country very unhappy.

They see trucks with Alberta licence plates on a permit

system going through northern British Columbia to a job in the

Territories, but if some of our truckers have to go back

through Alberta, up over the Mackenzie highway and back up into

the Territories again, there's no reciprocal arrangement

sometimes. They feel that this is not really in the best

interests of interprovincial relationships.

There's one other problem that I would like to bring to the

attention of the Hon. Minister. This concerns the operation of

the weighscales in Fort Nelson. We have a scale there which is

not operated on a 12-months-a-year basis. There is intermittent

operation of the scales. It is serviced by personnel from Fort

St. John or Dawson Creek, who intermittently go up and open the

scale for a period of a week or 10 days, sometimes less than

that.

I'd like to draw it to the Minister's attention that in the

Fort Nelson area there is less than 20 miles of provincial

highway that is used by the trucking firms operating out of

Fort Nelson up into the unsurveyed areas of northern British

Columbia and beyond there into the Territories, particularly

during the winter months. I think the truckers have a

legitimate beef.

For instance, they come in from a rig move from maybe 200

miles up into the Territories. The weather has been bad and

they've picked up a lot of mud on their outfits. The Cats that

they're hauling are all mudded up. They're overweight — there's

no question about that — with the ice and all the rest. When

they get within four miles of Fort Nelson, the Department of

Commercial Transport is sitting there waiting for them, nails

them all and levies a pretty substantial fine against them.

When they travel only a very few miles of provincial

highway, it seems that we should exercise a little bit of

discretion in those particular situations It's very easy for an

overzealous inspector to go out there. For instance, he may

have a report that Commonwealth is moving a rig from the

Territories to Nelson. That inspector will know that between 20

and 40 loaded trucks will be coming out. As I said, at certain

times of the year they pick up a lot of mud and ice. They get

within four miles of Fort Nelson and bang! They get nailed. All

of them are fined, some with substantial fines.

They feel that it's a little unfair, to say the least. I believe it is too,

and we should exercise a little bit of latitude there. If it's the policy of

the department to operate a weighscale in Fort Nelson, it should be

done on a regular basis all the time. Then the people will become accustomed

to knowing that if they come in overweight, they're subject to a fine, even

when it's in the middle of winter and all the roads are frozen.

Other than that, exercise a little latitude — have your

inspectors exercise a little latitude when they're dealing with

some of these people. Really, at that time of year, they do not

hurt the roads. I agree that there's a problem in break-up —

when the roads are beginning to break up and it's soft. But in

the middle of winter there's absolutely no problem. The frost

is down to a depth of 10 or 12 feet. There's no way that they

will hurt any of our highways there.

The only problem we may have is with a bridge or two that

they have to cross. But in the main, they use ice bridges in

the winter. So even there, there's no problem as to a bridge

structure that could be hurt by an overload.

I would just bring this to the Minister's attention. I know

that the Deputy Minister is very aware of the problem. He's

tried to cooperate with the people up there. But we do have a

problem with people sometimes being a little overzealous in

their application of the rules — drawing these fellows right

strictly to the letter of the law and causing them, I think,

undue hardship, As a result, it costs them a lot of money in

excess fines.

We're not really in the business of maintaining a lot of

highway in the Fort Nelson area. With the fines that we levy, I

think we come out on the credit side of the ledger to a far

greater extent than any money we put back into that area in

road maintenance at this time.

[Ms. Young in the chair]

If he would, I'd like the Minister's comments on: the

Vancouver Island natural gas problem; the cooperation — or lack

of it — between ourselves and the Province of Alberta; and

this matter of the weighscales in Fort Nelson. Thank you, Madam

Chairman.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Minister.

HON. MR. LORIMER: Thank you, Madam Chairman. The pipeline to

Vancouver Island is under active discussion by the Government.

I'm not able to make an announcement on it tonight.

MR. SMITH: Can you give any indication where you're at?

HON. MR. LORIMER: It's a matter of Government policy. There

will be an answer in due course but not at the present

time.

The weighscale at Fort Nelson has been in operation since

last fall on a regular basis. It's not

[ Page 2052 ]

full-time, there's one man there, but on a regular basis

since last fall. I might just point out that the weighmasters

are carrying out the instructions of the department through the

regulations. I am sure they are generally using discretion.

In addition to the weights, they are also allowed an

additional tolerance. So before there are ever any tickets

given, the overload is quite substantial. These aren't given

out lightly. The complaints that we have received, when we

followed them through, we found they were in most cases quite

exaggerated, on the individuals that we did check up on at

their request.

Now I think the other question was cooperation with

Alberta, which was asked by the Hon. Member for South Peace

River (Mr. Phillips). We are having discussions on certain

areas of cooperation regarding a number of matters within this

jurisdiction. We expect that there will be more cooperation in

the future as a result of our conversations.

In most cases our weight limits are higher than the Alberta

weight limits. It just appears that our weigh scale people are

a little more active than the Alberta weighscale people because

they can get through Alberta but we pick them up in B.C.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MR. LORIMER: That's true. In other areas, our widths

may be narrower than Alberta's. I think in general we allow

heavier weights.

For the Hon. Member for South Peace River, I think we will

try to do something for him on the "H" plate for farmers who

are hauling their own produce. We'll have to look into that. We

will certainly study that aspect; I think it's a good

suggestion.

MR. PHILLIPS: What about the mobile homes safety?

HON. MR. LORIMER: We allow them up to 12 feet. Oh, the

safety part? That is a question of the people who are driving

the warning cars or the wide-load cars who have their two-way

radios — that might be fine, but basically the problem is that

in that event what they're preventing is people from moving

their own vehicles with their own wide-load car in front, a

function that they can probably do quite safely. But if there

are examples of where something has occurred, I'd be pleased to

hear about it.

MR. RICHTER: Madam Chairman, if I might direct a question to

the Minister.

During my tenure of office I found that there were a number

of loose ends in the Department of Commercial Transport,

particularly in relation to motor vehicles. Is the Minister

giving any consideration to the amalgamation of the

Motor-Vehicle Branch, the various carrier plates under the Motor Carriers

Act , and consolidating it into one full-fledged department? I

am sure that the department could gain great status this way. I

am sure there would be a closer coordination between all these

branches, bringing it into a meaningful department, in that you

would deal with all matters in relation to licensing, car

inspections and so on. I think this has been something that has

just been left hanging. I think this is the time now to move

into that area.

HON. MR. LORIMER: This matter is under serious consideration

at the present time.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Member for West Vancouver–Howe

Sound.

MR. WILLIAMS: Madam Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would

indicate whether his department investigates any of the

derailment accidents on the British Columbia Railway.

HON. MR. LORIMER: I'm advised we don't to go every one. We

go to any where there are any injuries or serious matters

involved. We don't go to every one.

MS. CHAIRMAN: Shall vote 41 pass?

Vote 41 approved.

Vote 42: general administration, $111,706 — approved.

On vote 43: engineering branch, $200,928.

MS. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Second Member for

Victoria.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: This is one of these votes which has

motor vehicles and accessories. I'd like to know what steps are

being taken to make sure that any purchases of motor vehicles

or accessories will be done by tender; what steps are being

taken to make sure that these are not given out under any

excuse whatsoever, be it speed or anything else, to companies

which may or may not have special interests to the government;

what attempts will be made to make sure that when a contract

does take place or a sale does take place, Members of the

Legislature who request information on the sale from the

Minister receive such information. In other words, what

guarantees can we get or what statements of intention can we

get from the Minister regarding contracts for vehicles to

assure us, that they are receiving fair value for money, that

they are receiving vehicles which have purchased fairly and

honestly; where all British Columbians who pay taxes who might

want to supply are given the opportunity to supply; where a

deci-

[ Page 2053 ]

sions regarding what purchases will be made will be made on

the basis of price and service, and not on some other

considerations that might strike Ministers as being desirable

at one time or another?

HON. MR. LORIMER: All vehicle purchases under this

department are brought through the Purchasing Commission as

provided by the Purchasing Commission Act.

Vote 43 approved.

On vote 44: weigh scale branch, $1,187,682.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Madam Chairman, I would like to know

whether this will be entirely under the Purchasing Commission;

whether there is any opportunity here for Ministerial latitude

which might lead the Purchasing Commission to be circumvented

and lead to contracts which would be done without tender and

without any guarantee that they are in the best interests of

the public.

,HON. MR. LORIMER: All purchases under this department are bought through

the Purchasing Commission as provided by the Purchasing Commission Act .

Vote 44 approved.

ESTIMATES, DEPARTMENT OF

THE PROVINCIAL SECRETARY

On vote 181: Department of the Provincial Secretary

Minister's office, $48,430.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Member for Langley.

MR. R.H. McCLELLAND (Langley): Thank you, Madam Chairman, I

have only a few brief questions.

First of all, I'd like to put in a plug for "Douglas Day." I

would hope that since the Provincial Secretary (Hon. Mr. Hall)

and the cabinet saw fit to go to the Langley area on November

19 last year, their first time as the new cabinet, I would

hope that they would go there forever more, because it's an

historic occasions.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

HON. MR. BARRETT: "Forever more," we heard it!

MR. McCLELLAND: The citizens of my community, Madam

Chairman, are seriously concerned about that. They feel that

it's an historic occasion and they'd like to make sure that the

Government recognizes it. So perhaps a commitment from the

Minister would be in order at this time.

One of the reasons we don't have too many questions for the

Provincial Secretary — and maybe it's just an interesting

coincidence — but three bills were brought down today dealing

with pensions and that rather stifles the most important areas

of discussion in the Minister's department. I suppose that is

just an interesting coincidence.

However, they are civil service pensions, teachers' pensions

and school district and regional college pensions. We are not

allowed to discuss those this evening, and they are very

important areas of concern in the Minister's department.

I would ask though, Madam Chairman, through you to the

Minister, when we might plan to see the legislation that the

Minister has promised with regard to collective bargaining by

civil servants? I know that many people are desperately anxious

to see that legislation and find out just what the Minister has

in mind for this area of concern.

I wonder too, does the Minister still plan to go ahead with

the right to strike for civil servants, even though it seems

from all surveys that the public doesn't agree with the right

to strike for civil servants. Are we going to go ahead with

that proposal just the same?

I'd like, Madam Chairman, to ask the Minister a couple of

questions about some of the recent statements that he's made in

the Press, one of them most recently in Harrison Hot Springs

with regard to the electronic media, in which the Minister

spoke to the British Columbia Association of Broadcasters and

complained rather bitterly that the broadcasters weren't

carrying out their function with regard to the dissemination of

news not only from the Legislature but from the announcements

that the provincial government makes from time to time through

the Provincial Secretary's department, I suppose.

The Minister said that sometimes the government's efforts to

inform are thwarted by the media. For instance, he said some

government announcements and news releases are given wide

coverage but others are virtually ignored.

I wonder if the Minister might comment on whether he thinks

the electronic media in any way need to be upgraded from his

point of view, or whether he needs to develop a course of some

kind to teach the electronic media what's news and what

isn't.

He also says that the government has a responsibility to

inform the public and there should be full disclosure of

information. Well, I'm sure the media agrees with that, but

perhaps some clarification on that point might be in order.

If I can get a little parochial for a moment, not long ago

the Minister also said that he intends to fight the Treasury

Board for money for immediate construction of tertiary

treatment sewage plants in the

[ Page 2054 ]

lower mainland, and I wonder how the fight is coming —

whether or not you are getting anywhere with that problem. He

also said that he believes that the province should foot the

entire bill and I wonder how he is making out with that fight

as well.

Madam Chairman, a recent letter from the Minister to a

Victoria resident who is in the printing business, having to do

with bids for extra jobs for the Queen's Printer, came to light

recently and I'd like to quote from that letter. The Minister

says to the writer:

"All material that has to be printed is given to the

Queen's

Printer to print, and what he is unable to produce in the

Queen's Printer shop will be put out to bid. Companies that are able to

produce the material that we require will be invited to bid."

I wonder, Madam Chairman, if the Minister could explain to

us whether that kind of selective tendering is going on all the

time or whether he would consider putting these kinds of bids

out to open tender.

The Minister has also said in his letter that the criteria

of union shop and B.C. companies will always be operative, and

that's highly commendable. But I think that the selective bid

practice is certainly a retrograde step in the Province of

British Columbia and we should ensure that all of these

contracts go to open bids rather than selective bids.

Madam Chairman, I would also like to ask a brief question

about two other items that come under this Minister's

jurisdiction, the alcoholism foundation and the narcotics

foundation. Grants to those two organizations amount to a total

$625,000, up from $600,000 last year. Will the Minister be

consulted if these two foundations are closed down as we've had

some indication they might be? Will it be with consultation

from your department since you administer the funds, or will

you have an opportunity to review the operations of those

foundations before they are closed down, if they are in fact to

be closed down? Perhaps you would comment on whether or not

it's within your jurisdiction to keep these foundations

operating.

Madam Chairman, the Provincial Secretary also has to do with

the Provincial Elections Act , and I'm wondering whether before

the next election there will be changes in the enumeration

procedures. It seems to me that there were too many eligible

people left off the voters' list in the last election. It was

quite regrettable. Will the department be revising the polling

divisions within those districts? Once again, some ludicrous

situations popped up during the last election, particularly

with regard to polling divisions. Many people, I'm afraid, just

forgot about voting rather than fighting all of the red tape.

Once again, are there going to be changes in the elections Act

with regard to enumeration procedures and to the revision of

polling divisions and polling districts before the next

election?

I have some more questions, Madam Chairman, but I'd like to allow someone else

to ask some questions beforehand.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Provincial Secretary.

HON. E. HALL (Provincial Secretary): Dealing with the

questions of the Member for Langley (Mr. McClelland) in the

order they were presented to us.

First of all, we intend to keep Douglas Day going. We have a

very pleasant day there and I should tell you we anticipate a

cabinet meeting in many places in the province over the next

many years. We'll be in Williams Lake for their stampede, for

instance. Those things are near and dear to the kind of

Government that I have the pleasure of serving as Provincial

Secretary.

Legislation. Mr. Member, I hope to be in a position to stand

in my place very shortly to bring and introduce a message from

His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. I don't think we'll have to

wait 20 years or even 20 days for that to happen. It'll be very

shortly and I frankly am not going to say much more on that

subject because the legislation is coming.

You mentioned and inquired about my speech at Harrison Hot

Springs. I didn't complain bitterly. Those are your words; I

never complain. I've been in this business long enough to know

that's not the way one operates.

I did talk about responsibility. I talked about

responsibility of government to inform and the responsibility

of the media to inform their readership. Judging by the

applause that I got when I sat down, I think the message was

well received and accurately construed. My speech, I think,

stands on its merits.

Fighting for tertiary treatment, fighting for an improvement

in the timetable. I think I'm correct in saying that I've won

the first battle and we have improved the timetable. When

you've improved the timetable to get that in you've also, of

course, won half the battle for tertiary treatment. So I'm

quite happy with my batting performance within Treasury Board.,

It's probably even out of order to answer those questions

because they are not within my administrative responsibility,

but I'm certainly intent as an MLA in this House on making sure

that we improve considerably on the promises of yesteryear.

Bids on jobs. I wish you had read the whole letter out —

it's a very good letter. I point out that where we have a

clause in our policy that allows preference for British

Columbia bids, we will also have the same kind of clause for

union bids as long as the public purse does not suffer

unduly.

As far as selective or open bidding, I think you are really

putting a construction on my words that…maybe it's my fault

for not being too clear. I also think you are looking at the

question of administration in a very narrow way. The Queen's

Printer is a knowledgeable person. Our department has been

[ Page 2055 ]

existence for a long time. They know the kind of print shops

that are able to do the kind of work that is required, and the

bid list is always open to amendment. We're getting letters in

constantly to put people on the bidding list who have never had

an opportunity to bid before. That's what I meant in that

letter. I think that's a good policy and certainly there is no

suggestion at all that it's a selective list. It's simply that

in that very complicated art, the graphics art, the Queen's

Printer knows whereof he speaks.

Regarding the Alcoholic and Narcotic Addiction Foundations.

I think it is fair to say that in my office, for the first time

ever, the alcoholic and the narcotic addiction leaders met all

the cabinet ministers involved in the solution of those awful

problems — together in one room for the first time. That took

place last October-November; there are four Ministers directly

involved.

What we are attempting to do is to make sure that the money

that I administer by virtue of a specific vote, together with

the money that the Minister of Rehabilitation (Hon. Mr. Levi)

pays out, together with the money that the Minister of Health

Services and Hospital Insurance (Hon. Mr. Cocke) pays out,

together with the responsibility of the Department of

Education, is used correctly. We all know what our left and

right hands are doing, and there is some coordination and some

administrative efficiency applied to this thorny problem.

On top of that, we have decided to approach, if you like,

the ideology, the methodology that is really at the root of

this problem. And even as I speak, the three Ministers are now

discussing some of the coordination that is required.

I think it is fair to say that I will be answering your

question directly; I will be part of the decision making

process. Certainly there will be no alteration or closing down

of these things or withdrawal of funds until we have gotten

together and put together the four Ministers responsible for

gathering the solutions to this problem. No decisions are made

until we got full cooperation, full concert, harmony and

accord with the foundations mentioned.

Your last question dealt with the Provincial Elections Act .

I couldn't agree more with your criticisms regarding

enumeration and polling divisions.

There is a constant updating of polling divisions or polling districts which

always seems to come in a rush at the end. I fully anticipate a brand new Provincial

Elections Act . I fully anticipate a redistribution of some sort over the lifetime

of this parliament. We are, however, still in the early days of our first full

session since the election.

I can assure you that all MLAs, party leaders, staffs and so

on will be asked to comment and give ideas on this most

important piece of legislation by which we all get here. Your

comments, as a new Member, perhaps will be even more

appreciated than those of people like myself who have got long

in the tooth.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Member for South Peace River.

MR. PHILLIPS: Madam Chairman, I have a couple of questions

I'd like to ask the Hon. Provincial Secretary.

I have an

article here, Madam Chairman, from the Vancouver

Province March 9, 1973. It's entitled "No Grant So No Tour for

Elgar Choir": 'British Columbia's famed Elgar Choir, now in its

49th year, must cancel an overseas farewell tour planned for

June because the Secretary of State has refused a grant,' says

leader Charles E. Findlay."

Madam Chairman, the question I'd like to ask the Provincial

Secretary is this: did this choir apply to the provincial

government for a grant? If they did: what was the amount of the

grant requested; why was the grant refused; did the Provincial

Secretary go to the Secretary of State on behalf of this choir

and ask for assistance so that this tour could take place?

If a grant had been made, out of what fund would it have

come? We appear to have funds to donate to City Stage, which is

a hilarious noon-hour "seduction" type of operation. They were

given a grant in 1972, according to an

article here dated

February 12: "Ray Mickel, managing director of City Stage at

591 Howe, said in a press release that grants from the B.C.

Cultural Fund, the Vancouver Foundation and the Koerner

Foundation enabled the theatre to re-open."

This particular lunch hour theatre has been described as

being "lewd, offensive, dirty-minded, questionable, outrageous,

morbidly sexual and in the worst possible taste." Yet…

HON. MR. HALL: Are you advertising it or criticizing it?

(Laughter).

MR. PHILLIPS: Yet we're able to make a donation to this

"hilarious noon-hour seduction" programme from our cultural

fund, but here is the Elgar Choir which was not able to take

its yearly overseas trip. Surely to goodness, there must be

some leveling factor among the grants from this cultural

[ Page 2056 ]

fund. Madam Chairman, I wish the Provincial Secretary would

give us some guidelines as to what type of operation is going

to receive grants from this cultural fund.

This doesn't seem to be in very good taste. I must say that

I haven't seen the show. The

article also says "filthy but, oh

so funny." I haven't seen the stage play. I wonder if the

Provincial Secretary saw this before he made the donation from

the cultural fund.

Madam Chairman, we have sat in this Legislature well over

the 40 days. I would like to make a recommendation to the

Provincial Secretary on behalf of anybody who lives out of the

lower mainland or out of the City of Victoria and attends this

Legislature. At the present time we receive a cost of living

allowance for 40 days only.

I'll admit that there's been some talk in this Legislature

and in the paper lately about the cost of a democratic system

and the cost of speaking in this Legislature — which I don't go

along with. I think that when the day comes that we have to…

MS. CHAIRMAN: Order, Hon. Member.

MR. PHILLIPS: ….have closure in this Legislature and

put a price on it…

MS. CHAIRMAN: Order. You are out of order. That was…

MR. PHILLIPS: Well, I'm talking to the Provincial Secretary,

Madam Chairman, about…

MS. CHAIRMAN: That is covered in vote 1.

MR. PHILLIPS: It comes under his provision.

MS. CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, you're out of order.

MR. PHILLIPS: I would like to ask the Provincial Secretary

if he would consider…

MS. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Member, you are out of order. Would you

kindly sit down.

MR. PHILLIPS: Well, how come I'm out of order?

MS. CHAIRMAN: Because that is covered in vote 1.

MR. PHILLIPS: No, it was not covered in vote 1. I'm talking

about MLAs salaries and costs of living.

MS. CHAIRMAN: It was provided for in vote 1.

HON. R.M. STRACHAN (Minister of Highways): On a point of

order. When the Chairman is on his or her feet, you are

supposed to sit down.

MR. CHABOT: Stand up to make a point of order.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: You can't stand up when the Chairman is

on his or her feet. As a former substitute Chairman, he should

know better.

MR. PHILLIPS: Well, there's another point I'd like to ask

the Provincial Secretary about, Madam Chairman. The role of an

Opposition Member is becoming much greater, due to the

fantastic workload that this socialist Government is bringing

in. We find that — I won't say that we don't have a Government

now that we can trust, but we want to keep them honest, I'll

put it that way, Madam Chairman. It requires a great deal more

work than the previous Opposition had to do. A great deal more

work.

MS. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Member, I thought that we had settled

this problem before.

MR. PHILLIPS: Well, I'm talking about secretaries for the

MLAs. Doesn't that come under the Provincial Secretary?

MS. CHAIRMAN: That is under vote 1.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR. PHILLIPS: Under the Speaker? Well, I thought it was the

Provincial Secretary. I'm sorry.

MS. CHAIRMAN: It's under the Speaker's Office.

MR. PHILLIPS: I'm sorry, Madam Chairman. Well, I'll sit down

and maybe rephrase my question.

HON. MR. HALL: Madam Chairman, I have no wish not to answer

questions about the funds. You realize that first of all, the

funds are under the administration of the Department of Finance

and the arbiter of the "yes" and the "no" is the Treasury

Board., But you're quite right; I made it clear that

applications should come through my office so I can follow

them. From that point of view, I certainly want to advise

you.

You've put your finger on the problem that faces the

cultural fund or any other grant: who is to say what is good on

the one hand, or what is bad on the other. You say that City

Stage is bad and something else is good.

MR. PHILLIPS: I didn't say that.

HON. MR. HALL: You have quoted a newspaper

article that said

City Stage was bad. Fair enough. I don't want to get into a

hassle. The point is that that

[ Page

2057 ]

shows you where the difficulty is. Frankly, that's why we

have a committee that's independent to try to make

recommendations on the merits of the case as they see them.

City Stage was warmly recommended by many, many people

highly regarded for their advice and reputation in the

performing arts. So the City Stage got a grant. We've made

literally hundreds of grants, and I really don't want to get

into a discussion about each and every one of them. But I'll

make the time-honoured proposal to you that we will table in

the fall all the grants that were made out of the funds.

As far as the Elgar Choir is concerned, yes, they were

turned down by the federal Secretary of State. They have come

to us to inquire about the possibility of getting some money.

They have not presented us with a firm proposal. When they do,

we'll be able to judge it on its merits. Just because they've

been turned down by one group, doesn't mean to say we should

automatically pick it up.

Quite honestly, we know that we're going to be inundated

shortly with applications in all the funds and in the general

grant vote to the Provincial Secretary's department for many of

the LIP-sponsored activities in this province. The federal

government is quite obviously pulling right out and leaving

people high and dry in many good programmes. Again, you and I

could probably have a debate sometime on what is a good

programme and what is a bad programme. As a specific point, it

would be interesting for us to have a debate about what is a

good "cultural" activity and what is a bad "cultural"

activity.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Oak Bay.

MR. G.S. WALLACE (Oak Bay): Mr. Chairman, I'll be very

brief. I wished to raise the same point regarding the question

of grants. I'll stand corrected if the Minister would wish it

raised under a specific vote, either 196 or 200, as the case

may be.

The one which might better come under vote 200 concerns the

fact that here in Victoria, at 207 Government Street, we have

the Emily Carr residence, which is the birthplace of Canada's

greatest lady painter.

Some five years ago, Mr. Chairman, the Jaycees (Junior Chamber of Commerce)

in Victoria, as a centennial project took on the renovation and the refurbishing

of the Emily Carr Home. This, like so many other renovation projects, ran far

beyond the estimated costs. I think they were looking at $50,000 and they've

already spent $65,000 and still have more money to spend. There have been other

problems with the City of Victoria and I don't want to take the

time of the House to go into all the details.

Beyond question, Mr. Chairman, this is a historic residence

and a very important part of the history of this province and

certainly the history of Canada. I'm not denying that perhaps

the federal government should be much more interested than it

obviously is in helping the Junior Chamber of Commerce, but be

that as it may, Mr. Chairman, the federal government is not

meeting its responsibility to a very vital part of Canada's

history, and this being the case I would hope that the

Provincial Secretary would look at this very sympathetically.

It's quite possible from his answer to the previous question

that the same applies here. The Junior Chamber of Commerce has

not applied to the provincial government.

May I say that I am not speaking on behalf of the Chamber of

Commerce. I read this in the newspaper and it seems to me a

very valid and realistic way in which someone in government

should come to the rescue of this particular building.

The other point I just wanted to raise, Mr. Chairman, was

the question of another choir called the Orion Male Choir of

Victoria, which is travelling to the world-wide musical festival

in Wales this year as a representative of Canada. The Orion

Male Choir has already been turned down by the Canada Council

and by the Secretary of State Department. It is committed to a

trip to this festival in Wales which, I believe, is this

summer. I'm fully appreciative of the Provincial Secretary's

point that he can well be inundated with requests but, Mr.

Chairman, this is the oldest established male voice choir in

Canada. It was established in 1892 and is presently the B.C.

community choir champion choir. I do feel that while one could

find endless numbers of projects to which the government could

give money, these two particular examples that I have quoted

really do rise above just the parochial interest. We have the

Orion Choir which is somewhat unique, as I say, in being the

oldest established choir, and we have the Emily Carr residence

which is not just a Victoria Or even a provincial emblem but is

something very historic for the whole of Canada. I wonder if

the Provincial Secretary could comment on his thoughts.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Provincial Secretary.

HON. MR. HALL: The Emily Carr house, first of all. Five

years ago the Victoria Jaycees entered into agreement with the

federal government for restoration and we have not had an

application or communication with them since. But we have a

fund, an Archeological and Historic Sites Protection Act , and

an active committee — an advisory board — which has got a

number of experts on it. We have a couple of dozen sites under

review now, and certainly that's an important one. They should,

of course, if they feel

[ Page 2058 ]

the federal government has finished their agreement or

whatever is the case, come to us.

Similarly, the Orion Male Choir, if it's representing B.C.

in a championship of some sort, the money is provided to do

that kind of work. Now whether they meet the obvious

requirements that would have to be instituted at some

decision-making level, I don't know. I have some trouble

accommodating the statement that they are the champions of the

community choirs — a number have made that claim. But certainly

if the Orion Male Choir wants to go to Wales they should make

an application and let it stand on its merits.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Cariboo.

MR. FRASER: I would like to know how much money was spent

last year in the Department of the Provincial Secretary on the

restoration of Barkerville. I might say all the work has been

excellent but I would like to know how much was spent last year

and how much is budgeted for this year. Last year in

Barkerville there were almost 200,000 visitors to this historic

site and I certainly hope this restoration work is going to

carry on. I know the Parks Branch are involved as well as your

branch, Mr. Minister, but I'd like to know if the capital money

is in there again this year.

While I'm on the subject of Barkerville, I'm looking for

some Clydesdale horses that the government owns. Mr. Chairman,

to you, Mr. Minister, I believe they come under your

jurisdiction. These lovely animals were scooped away to the

Kootenays to Fort Steele a year or so ago…

HON. MR. NIMSICK: I'll give you a couple for breeding

stock.

MR. FRASER: I understand they are flourishing and

increasing, but I would like to request, Mr. Chairman, through

to the Minister, to take half a dozen of them up to Barkerville

for two or three weeks. I don't see why they all have to be in

one location. I don't think it will break the government to

take them up. They have facilities at Barkerville for them. I'm

referring to the summer tourist months when they'd be a great

attraction. Thank you.

HON. MR. HALL: We spent $200,000 last year, Mr. Member. This

year we are estimating a slight increase to $205,000.

Clydesdales: I'm not an expert on Clydesdales. I do know, however, that there

is a programme being established this year because of the R.C.M.P. Centenary,

which is focused on Fort Steele. I presume that the horsemen will need horses

and that they are going to be a very live part of the celebration

of the 100 years. Now whether or not the musical ride will be done on

Clydesdales I don't know. (Laughter). You've heard the Member say that he will

lend you two for breeding stock and I guess he's going to talk to the Minister

of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Stupich) or something. But it's a good point and we'll

see what we can do.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Columbia

River.

MR. CHABOT: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I see in the

annual report that the Minister is the official organizer of

official visits and functions, I'm wondering whether he was

responsible for the arrangements and the facilities that were

provided for the trip to Olympia, because I understand that the

Cadillac was taken out of mothballs. I'd also like to know just

how many Ministers were in that vehicle (laughter) because I've

received reports on that tour that eight or nine Ministers came

out of a Cadillac (laughter) and some people said it looked

like the Beverley Hillbillies. (Laughter). So I'm wondering

really whether you allowed this great number of people to enter

the Cadillac and leave the Cadillac in front of the parliament

buildings in Olympia.

Next, Mr. Chairman, I'm glad to hear that the Minister is

considering changes to the Election Act , Because I look at your

annual report on page U-22 and lo and behold who do I see going

into a poll but Farley Mowat. He's not a British Columbian, is

he? Here he is going into a poll. Thank God there are going to

be changes to the Election Act .

Also since you've been Government there's been an

acquisition of rare, exquisite and expensive paintings. There

are two paintings of Emily Carr purchased and one by Edward

Shrapnell, acquired from an owner in Australia. I am wondering

whether the Minister would tell us just what was paid for these

paintings and where these paintings are hanging.

The next point that I would like to raise is that the

Minister, Mr. Chairman, when he took office, said there was

going to be an examination of the orders-in-council from August

30 to September 15. He said this:

" 'In the short time I've been in my desk I've realized that

the last two weeks of the outgoing government need

investigating and I've asked my staff to present me with copies

of all the orders-in-council passed quite correctly and quite

properly in terms of the authority under which we operate.' The

Provincial Secretary said he has already referred the orders to

Education Minister Eileen Dailly and Resource Minister Williams

for further study. Hall refused to be more specific but he said

that the government could rescind the cabinet order if it

wished."

I'm wondering if there have been any orders-in-

[ Page 2059 ]

council rescinded, changed or anything of that nature, and

whether his elaborate investigation has brought out any

misdemeanor on the part of the former government.

Also I'd like the Provincial Secretary to tell me just how

many handicapped people have been engaged by the civil service

between September 15 to December 31. How many were engaged

between January 1, 1972 and September 15, 1972, if you have

that information.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Provincial Secretary.

HON. MR. HALL: The Emily Carr paintings: I can't give you

details of the price paid for each of the paintings. I could

get that for you. The paintings are on display in the Archives

and Museum complex on the other side, and we hope that they

will also travel and be made available in displays around the

province from time to time.

Orders-in-council: yes, we conducted a search. We're not

suggesting misdemeanors — that was your word. We wanted to find

out what had happened in that interregnum period, if that is

the correct expression, and we were also confirmed in our

suspicions. Some of the decisions made showed a complete lack

of understanding about who won the election, and what you

should have been doing in those two weeks and what you did

do.

MR. CHABOT: A supplemental: You didn't answer the question

of how many handicapped workers you have engaged. I want to

know how many orders-in-council were rescinded that had been

passed between August 30 and September 15.

HON. MR. HALL: I'll have to ask if the Member would be good enough to

place the question about handicapped persons on the order paper. I'll make sure

it is answered. As far as the orders in council…none were rescinded per

se as a result of my investigation. The investigation took place because, as

I said, we were anxious to know just exactly what the government was doing in

the period August 30 to September 15.

AN HON. MEMBER: How many appointments were made?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for South Peace

River.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Order.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I recognize the Hon. Member for

South Peace River.

MR. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I mentioned before

and I would like to mention again to the Provincial Secretary

about all these…I'm sure this doesn't come under Vote 1

because the literature is headed, Deputy Provincial Secretary.

I am referring to these great passes that we get. We get a

whole sheaf of them. We can travel on anything except the one

thing we want to travel on. I'm sure all your backbench Members

from up-country would appreciate having a pass on an airline or

something so they can get home.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I would request the Hon. Member

to bring this up under consideration of Vote 1.

MR. PHILLIPS: The passes come from the Provincial

Secretary.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. While it is so that these

sections are administered by the Provincial Secretary's

department to some extent, the fact is that there is a special

vote and we would ask you to bring it up then.

MR. PHILLIPS: There's no vote for these — they're all

free.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Vote No. 1. I otherwise rule you out of

order.

MR. PHILLIPS: I sure am having a tough time tonight.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for North Peace

River.

MR. SMITH: One question, Mr. Chairman, to the Hon.

Provincial Secretary. I raised a matter earlier in the year and

there seemed to be an indication we might be doing something

about it, and that is the matter of the celebration of 100

years of service to Canada and the province by the RCMP. Is

there a special programme going to be laid on; if so, will it

be mid-summer or could we have any details?

HON. MR. HALL: We just recently received the full itinerary

from the RCMP officer in charge of the celebrations. I am

having it copied and all MLAs will receive a copy of it

together with specific mention of their ridings and so on. That

will soon be in your possession, just as soon as I can get back

to the desk and sign the things off. It is in the works now,

Mr. Chairman. I think, if I may say, I think your leader

already has a copy, as indeed does the leader of the

[ Page 2060 ]

Liberal Party and the leader of the Conservative Party.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. First Member for

Vancouver South.

MR. J. RADFORD (Vancouver South): Mr. Chairman, I rise to

discuss what has been an urgent concern to more than 30,000

people employed by the Government of British Columbia. I am

referring to the long overdue introduction of collective

bargaining rights.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The Hon. Member is out of

order. He cannot discuss legislation during consideration of

the estimates.

MR. RADFORD: It's not in yet, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, the point is, you cannot discuss

legislation either proposed or the need for legislation.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. RADFORD: The first speaker got up, Mr. Chairman, and

discussed it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall vote 181 pass?

Vote 181 approved.

Vote 182: General administration: $161,526 — approved.

On vote 183: Central microfilm bureau: $278,438.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Langley.

MR. McCLELLAND: Mr. Chairman, just a quick question with

regard to temporary assistance with the central microfilm

bureau. A substantial increase in temporary assistance from nil

to $45,000; could you explain that Mr. Provincial

Secretary?

HON. MR. HALL: It is to provide staff for microfilming of a

backlog of land registry work in New Westminster, in Vancouver

and in Victoria, a four-year project which commenced in the 1972-1973 fiscal year.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall vote 183 pass?

Vote 183 approved.

Vote 184: Postal Branch; $2,062,184 — approved.

Vote 185: Provincial library; $341,640 — approved.

Vote 186: Provincial archives; $276,460 — approved.

Vote 187: Library Development Commission; $560,640 —

approved.

On vote 188: Library and library association grants:

$900,000.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for North Peace

River.

MR. SMITH: On this particular vote, Mr. Chairman; I realize

that throughout the province you make grants to libraries.

Could you give me the

schedule you use; is it on a per capita

grant or based upon the number of people that actually belong

to the library association in the respective area; or on what

basis do we determine the amount of the grant to the respective

libraries throughout the province?

HON. MR. HALL: There is a

schedule drawn up by the Library

Development Commission which is set up by Act with members of

the community on it. That

schedule lists every library and

library association that qualifies for the grant but there has

to be…it is not a flat grant in terms of population. They

have to produce a library service that is up to standard.

We are having some trouble, for instance, at the moment in

the Sunshine Coast. Once that standard is met then we will

support it. We have another system of starting grants which

takes care of the smaller communities. The list of grants is

extensive, starting off with public library associations right

through from Alert Bay to Powell River, alphabetically, and

goes on with the municipal and regional library grants.

If you would like, Mr. Member, I will table the list of

grants with the criteria at the top of the list.

MR. SMITH: Thanks very much.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall vote 188 pass?

Vote 188 approved.

On vote 189: Queen's Printer; $10.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Where is he?

MR. CHAIRMAN: There is something wrong with this one. It

appears that vote 189 would seem to be for considerably more

money than that. No pardon me, $10.

[ Page 2061 ]

HON. MR. BARRETT: Do you want to put it up, Mr. Attorney

General?

Vote 189 approved.

Vote 190: Government House: $86,168 — approved.

Vote 191: Agent General's office and British Columbia House,

London, England: $282,131 — approved.

Vote 192: Indian Advisory Act ; $46,038 — approved.

Vote 193: Assessment of Class 13, Workmen's Compensation

Act ; $1,200,000 — approved.

Vote 194: Unemployment Insurance (Civil Service): $2,415,000 — approved.

Vote 19 5: Incidentals and Contingencies; $100,000.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Columbia

River.

MR. CHABOT: Could the Minister elaborate on this expenditure

of $100,000 as it is a substantial increase, and tell me what

it covers?

HON. MR. HALL: Incidentals and Contingencies basically cover

government entertainment and also the premiums on government

air insurance for all civil servants. This appropriation is

properly described, I think, by the words incidentals and

contingencies. The cost of Government entertainment at the

cabinet level is charged to the vote.

From this vote is paid also the cost of the free issue of

statutes, legislative papers, et cetera to those authorized by

order-in-council to receive them, pursuant to the Public

Printing Act . Of course, as you know, many of you have

requested more copies of the work that we do and that has

necessarily meant that we must inflate that figure from its

previous one on the left hand side of the page, The annual premium of $4,800 to cover the cost of aviation

insurance is also charged including conveyance to and from

airports. I think that summarizes the $ 100,000 in that

vote.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall vote 195 pass?

Vote 195 approved.

Vote 196: Department of Provincial Secretary. Grants, et

cetera; $1,750,000 — approved;

Vote 197: Grants in Aid of construction of homes and

recreational centres; $6,850,000 — approved.

Vote 198: Grants re Alcoholic and narcotic foundations;

$675,000 — approved.

Vote 199: Capital Improvement District Act , $250,000 —

approved.

Vote 200: Archaeological and Historic Sites Protection Act

$630,000 — approved.

HON. MR. BARRETT: …to protect the founding convention

site of the Social Credit Party. (Laughter)

On Vote 201: provincial emergency programme, $750,000.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. First Member 'for

Victoria.

MR. N.R. MORRISON (Victoria): Mr. Chairman, as a Member

who's been involved with civil defence for quite some time,

particularly with the air section, I would like to suggest

again that one of the most vital items involved in civil

defence and which also has its use towards peacetime use, is

the ability to find landing strips near small communities. I'd

like to recommend that to the Minister's consideration for this

year. We found that one of the biggest problems in the air

section was finding places to land near small communities for

emergency service.

Vote 201 approved.

Vote 202: Provincial Elections Act , 129,540 — approved.

Vote 203: Public Inquiries Act , $100,000 — approved.

Vote 204: Civil Service Commission administration, $637,634 — approved.

Vote 205: grants re civil service — gratuities under

Sec. 77

of Civil Service Act and other government employees, $100,000 —

approved.

Vote 206: retiring allowances — Civil Service Act ,

Sec. 70,

and other government employees, $250,000 — approved.

Vote 207 — Civil Service Commission, civil service

schedule

bond, $19,000 — approved.

Vote 208 — Superannuation Branch administra-

[ Page

2062 ]

tion, $480,874 — approved.

Vote 209 — civil service superannuation and retirement

benefits, $18,175,000 — approved Vote 210 — Members of Legislative Assembly Superannuation

Act , $65,000 — approved.

Vote 211 — Public Services Medical Plan Act , $1,425,000 —

approved.

Vote 212 — Public Services Group Insurance Act , $231,772 —

approved.

Vote 213 — Municipal Superannuation Act , $53,500 —

approved.

ESTIMATES, DEPARTMENT OF

TRAVEL INDUSTRY

On vote 232 Department of Travel Industry, Minister's

office, $18,616.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Travel

Industry.

HON. MR. HALL: I don't mind the vote going through, but I do

want to introduce to the House a new Deputy Minister. He has

not had the privilege and pleasure of sitting here as Deputy

Minister although he has served this government for many, many

years. I just want to pay my particular respects if I may, Mr.

Premier and Mr. Chairman, to the Deputy Minister of Travel

Industry, Dick Colby.

Vote 232 approved.

Vote 233 — general administration, $39,422 — approved.

Vote 234: Community Recreation Branch, $606,470 —

approved.

Vote 235 — Travel Division, $3,433,832 — approved.

Vote 236 — California and London offices, $101,234 —

approved.

Vote 237 — Film and Photographic Branch, $390,792 —

approved.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Chairman, I move the committee rise,

report resolutions and ask leave to sit again.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the committee reports resolutions

and asks leave to sit again.

Leave granted.

Hon. Mr. Macdonald files answers to questions.

Hon. Mrs. Dailly files answers to questions.

Hon. Mr. Strachan files answer to questions.

Hon. Mr. Barrett moves adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

The House adjourned at 10:48 p.m.

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