Fifth Session, 41st Parliament

(2020) REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS

(HANSARD)

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY,

SECTION A

Virtual Meeting

Thursday, July 30, 2020

Morning Meeting

Issue No. 17

ISSN 2563-3511

The HTML transcript is provided for informational purposes only.

The PDF transcript remains the official digital version.

CONTENTS

Committee of Supply

Proceedings in

Section A

Estimates: Ministry of Advanced Education, Skills and Training

Hon. M. Mark

S. Sullivan

D. Clovechok

B. Stewart

S. Cadieux

J. Thornthwaite

L. Throness

THURSDAY, JULY 30, 2020

The committee met at 9:31 a.m.

[N. Simons in the chair.]

Committee of Supply

Proceedings in

Section A

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF ADVANCED

EDUCATION, SKILLS AND

TRAINING

On Vote 12: ministry operations, $2,366,498,000.

The Chair: Good morning, colleagues. Good morning, all those who are

watching from near and far. Welcome, everyone.

I’d like to begin by recognizing the territory where I am

speaking from, which is the territory of the

Lək̓ʷəŋin̓əŋ-​speaking

peoples, today known as the Songhees and Esquimalt Nations. I’d also

like to welcome everybody from across British Columbia, in the

territories of Indigenous peoples, north and south, east and

west.

I’m really pleased to be able to participate and hear the

estimates of the Ministry of Advanced Education.

Would you like to begin with some opening remarks,

Minister?

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you for acknowledging the Indigenous territories where

people are joining us from, near and far. I am at the Legislative

Assembly on the traditional territory of the

Lək̓ʷəŋin̓əŋ-speaking

peoples.

It is my honour to present the 2020-21 spending estimates for the

Ministry of Advanced Education, Skills and Training. Before I begin, I’d

like to just pause for a moment to acknowledge the production that

people might not see from home — how many players are involved to get us

wired up and miked up, with the lights on and the sound checks. It is

quite a production, as we cope with COVID.

Just to also acknowledge my dream team: Deputy Minister Shannon

Baskerville; Assistant Deputy Ministers Nicola Lemmer, Bindi Sawchuk and

Kevin Brewster; executive lead Tony Loughran; and other executive

directors who are joining us.

Thanks to the members opposite for allowing me to provide a few

brief introductions to today’s estimates. It’s hard to believe that

we’re in year 3 of our four-year mandate already, and what a year it has

been. The global COVID-19 pandemic has affected all of our lives in ways

that we couldn’t even imagine: the way we work, who we spend time with,

and even how we get our groceries have all changed. Post-secondary

education is going to look different for a while, but we are all working

together to make sure it is as accessible as possible.

I’d like to take a moment to recognize our post-secondary

institutions, which are under immense pressure and are working every day

to ensure that students are able to continue learning. Our institutions

are more than physical spaces; they are communities led by faculty,

staff, tradespeople and, of course, students. Ensuring that students can

access and be successful in their post-secondary training and education

is my ministry’s highest priority. We are opening doors, which had been

closed, to ensure that all British Columbians can access affordable

education and skills training.

[9:35 a.m.]

This includes the implementation of the declaration on the rights

of Indigenous peoples, as well as the calls to action of the Truth and

Reconciliation Commission. Indigenous people are empowered to

participate in the workforce and are building thriving careers to

support themselves, their families and their communities through

post-secondary and skills training. I have visited these communities and

have seen firsthand the transformative power of education. This includes

targeted programs for Indigenous teacher training, driver training for

people in the north, and trades training programs.

Continuing to invest in post-secondary education skills training

will support our economy and empower people to participate in the

workforce. Access is key and at the heart of everything we do. We will

continue to be committed to moving the dial and opening doors for

affordable education close to home.

Last estimates we talked about how Budget 2019 eliminated the

interest on B.C.’s government student loans, answering a major call to

action. Instead of worrying about growing debt, we want students to

focus on learning and for graduates to put their knowledge to action. We

made life more affordable for students by a record investment in open

educational resources — over $3 million in 2019. Students in B.C. have

saved $18 million in textbook costs since the project began, answering

another call to action.

This year, in Budget 2020, we’ve gone a step further to open doors

to even more students with the launch of the B.C. access grant, a

long-standing call to action based on research and advocacy. The B.C.

access grant provides up to $4,000 to help with upfront costs of tuition

for more than 40,000 students, about twice as many as within the former

program of the past.

Budget 2020 continues investments in 2,900 tech and engineering

spaces, a major enabler for B.C.’s tech industry, which has advocated

for homegrown talent. We also invested in training for health

professionals, early childhood education and skills training. We’ve

increased funding for tuition, free adult basic education and

Over 1,300 former youth in care are following their dreams because

of the provincial tuition waiver program. Students face unique stress

and challenges, and COVID-19 added an unprecedented challenge for all

students. That’s why we expedited the launch of Here2Talk, B.C.’s 24-7

mental health counselling and referral service, to post-secondary

students. A major call to action from mental health advocates and

students, both of whom helped design this service.

We are delivering on our promise to ensure students have a place

to live when they go to school. We have been investing $450 million in

the construction of approximately 5,000 student beds over six years, a

key pillar of our ten-year housing action plan. Since 2018, we have

worked with communities and our public institutions to fund 1,975

student beds, an increase of 1,419 percent, from the 130 beds that the

former government had funded.

In 2019, we continued sexual violence awareness campaigns that

have run in August and January annually. We are also making sure that

health professionals in every corner of the province have the training

they need, so that communities can access health care close to home. In

2019, we listened to communities in the north and announced the

first-ever nursing program in the northeast and the first-ever northern

medical diagnostic sonography program, answering a call to action, which

we are proud to deliver in 250 communities.

In September 2019, we opened Camosun College’s new health and

wellness centre, and just a month later announced the college’s

sonography program, a first for Vancouver Island. We also broke ground

for the new health care sciences centre at BCIT and announced funding

for medical specialist programs. Affordable and accessible skills

training ensures no one is left behind so everyone can share the wealth

of our strong economy.

We are providing skills training for people over 55 and support

for people who face multiple barriers to employment. We’re investing in

skills training and employment programs for young people through the

workforce development agreement. These programs support vulnerable and

underrepresented people and help them to get the skills and employment

supports they need to get good jobs. It means hope and opportunity for

vulnerable populations facing employment barriers — survivors of

violence, mental health challenges and homelessness.

Our government also continued to invest in trades training to

ensure that the trades are recognized for their value to our province

and our economy. Our investments mean that we are turning the dial to

ensure more women, Indigenous people and youth realize the benefits and

advantages of crossing the finish line and getting their ticket and

their red seal.

[9:40 a.m.]

We know that education and skills training is key to our economic

recovery, and we will continue to invest so that people can study close

to home, follow their dreams and build our province back

better.

I look forward to responding to questions from the members

opposite.

S. Sullivan: Thank you, Minister.

I am joining you from the traditional territories of the Squamish,

Musqueam and Tsleil-Waututh. I’d also like to acknowledge the Métis,

Inuit, urban Aboriginals and non-status Indians who have made their home

here in Vancouver–False Creek.

Thank you to the minister for making her staff available for a

briefing by Deputy Minister Baskerville and her team and for making her

senior ministerial assistant, Michael Snoddon, available on call. I’d

like to commend the minister on their professionalism.

I’d especially like to thank Dion Weisner and Nick Heinemann, my

senior legislative research staff, who managed all the details of this

session. I can tell you the citizens are very well served by the

confidence, commitment and energy of the staff to keep the wheels of

government turning.

I’ll be asking some questions for the first hour, followed by

questions by several members of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition and then

members of the Third Party. If there’s time at the end, I will ask a few

final questions.

My first questions are about the impact of COVID on the ministry.

It has been a wild year, and I know the minister has had a lot of balls

to juggle in the air.

My question is about how COVID has impacted government revenues,

expenses. I’m especially thinking about any fees for the post-secondary

institutions or the private training institutions. I know there’s a cost

recovery there. Were any of these deferred? If so, can the minister

break down the total amount they deferred, how many institutions were

involved and the average amount per institution that was deferred? And

when will the deferred amounts be paid to the ministry?

[9:45 a.m.]

Hon. M. Mark: The post-secondary sector will experience financial challenges due

to reduced tuition revenues from declining domestic and international

student enrolment. My ministry is working closely with each of the 25

public post-secondary institutions to estimate and understand the

impacts.

My ministry will not be in a position to estimate the financial

impact until the fall enrolment numbers are confirmed in late September

2020. Until then, we are monitoring the situation closely.

S. Sullivan: Can the minister confirm post-secondary institutions are not

eligible to post deficit budgets? I’m wondering: if there is a

significant shortfall in revenue at B.C.’s post-secondary institutions,

is the minister prepared to aid them financially? Or what options do

these institutions have? Will they be required to increase fees and

tuition or, potentially, lay off staff and faculty to ensure a balanced

budget?

During our briefing, the ministry staff said they won’t know

enrolment until later in the school year. Is the ministry currently

operating with the assumption that post-secondary institutions won’t

require increased financial aid? This would be a question.

[9:50 a.m.]

Hon. M. Mark: I will be working with each of the public post-secondary

institutions for the budget forecasts once the fall enrolment numbers

are confirmed and the budget has confirmed the financial implications.

We will be working with the Minister of Finance on options. That

includes seeking approval, if necessary, from the Minister of Finance

and at each of the institutions on what the forecast will be.

It’s too early to speculate on the financial implications at this

time. At this moment, there are no increased fees.

S. Sullivan: Thank you, Minister.

Now, I don’t need to have any certain figures. I mean, this is

estimates. So we know that there is a lot of wiggle room. Has the

minister been briefed about preliminary figures of what the revenue, the

expenses, potential shortfalls and the status of the institutions will

be in terms of their final budget? I’m just hoping that I could at least

get a sense, an estimate, as we say, of the financial situation both of

her ministry and of the institutions.

[9:55 a.m.]

Hon. M. Mark: To the second part of the member’s question, there is no impact on

the ministry’s budget at this time. I have been briefed at a high level

but not institution by institution. My staff are working closely with

each institution and monitoring — it is a very dynamic situation on how

enrolment looks for the fall — to see where the losses or gains in

revenues will be.

As you may or may not know, students enrol, but who actually

attends by the end of September pays their tuition. That is how dynamic

it is, and we won’t know until the end of September.

[10:00 a.m.]

S. Sullivan: Okay. I’m just trying to get some sort of sense. I know that it’s

too early to know for certain what the numbers will be, but I know that

all institutions and all ministries are constantly doing updated

budgeting. So has the minister…? I know that the minister is obligated

to share that at estimates.

Is the minister saying that she has not been briefed even on the

estimated budget and revenue implications, expense implications for the

ministry and for the institutions? I don’t need to get any details. I

just need to get estimates of what these answers are.

Hon. M. Mark: I have received a high-level briefing about the potential forecast

scenarios. It’s too early to speculate without final enrolment numbers

being confirmed. It’s like this every year. We won’t know until students

show up.

I appreciate that you want to look forward and have that certainty

and affirmation. So do I. There is a lot of uncertainty because of

COVID. But year over year, the institutions have different scenarios

based on their semesters and enrolment, and we won’t know what the

revenue looks like and what the budgets look like until students sign up

and get to class.

I appreciate the member’s question. We are seeing strong enrolment

numbers. Therefore, I’m seeing…. I want to be optimistic that the

numbers look like they’re going up.

S. Sullivan: Well, all budgets, even the budgets at the beginning of the year,

are estimates, and they are subject to lots of changes. There’s constant

planning that goes on and constant readjustments.

I guess I’m not getting any numbers at all, any estimates. So I

think that I’ll just go to more philosophical ap­proaches. I will

move into a different area.

First of all, I do want to just acknowledge that the most striking

part of the ministry service plan and budget is the drive for Aboriginal

academic participation and excellence, and I acknowledge the minister

for her strong passion and commitment to this.

[10:05 a.m.]

There are two theories about how to achieve participation and

excellence for populations that haven’t traditionally been part of that.

One is to funnel resources into larger institutions, which have certain

advantages, and the other is to put resources into smaller, stand-alone

institutions.

I’m quite fascinated by the debate that’s taking place in the

United States between the public college system and the Black colleges,

for example. It’s a very interesting debate on what is the best way to

integrate and to have great achievements. The larger institutions have

these advantages of scale, but the smaller institutions can be more

responsive to individual needs and cultural issues.

My question to the minister is about the funding. She has been

very…. I want to acknowledge the minister on her efforts to carve out

funding for Aboriginal participation and excellence. How much is she

funding larger institutions with these broader mandates? And how much is

going to smaller, stand-alone institutions that have Aboriginal-focused

mandates?

I do know that…. Well, my concern is…. In the future, will

ministers have the same passion she does? Will that just be a line item

versus the smaller groups and how they don’t need to be convinced that

this is important, because that’s their mandate?

Does the minister have any division of how much is going to larger

institutions, mainstream institutions, and how much is going to

stand-alone Aboriginal-focused institutions?

[10:10 a.m.]

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you, Member, for the question, and thank you for

acknowledging my passion to move the dial on reconciliation. I think the

Truth and Reconciliation Commission has laid out a framework on where we

need to go. I’m very proud of the work that my ministry has done with

the declaration on the rights of Indigenous peoples and the calls to

action to address the gaps.

Teacher training is a big part of moving the dial. Investing in

people in the trades to reduce systemic poverty. The theoretical

question that you’re asking…. I really value trying to move the dial and

being very pointed on where we provide that training.

Some technical things that you’re asking. NVIT, Nicola Valley

Institute, is a provincial public post-secondary institution. Their

operating grant was $7.8 million. NEC, Native Education College, is

funded $2 million through Vancouver Community College. We also fund WSN,

which is a part of the Nisg̱a’a final

agreement, at $300,000 per year. For the Aboriginal service plan, we

invest $4.4 million. We invest $1.75 million for the Indigenous

initiatives.

I guess what I would say to the member is…. I inherited the file.

I inherited a mandate letter from the Premier. We were mandated to move

the dial on reconciliation. I have mandated the institutions to move the

dial, and that’s working closely with nations. That’s identifying the

needs of what nations want when it comes time to training. That’s the

self-determination piece of acknowledging rights. Implementing the

tuition waiver program was intended to address reconciliation, knowing

the number of children and youth in care.

I could probably spend your whole hour responding to this

question. I think, fundamentally, I would share…. There are 25 public

institutions across the province. I expect them to work as an ecosystem.

I want to create as many winning conditions for students to study close

to home.

We invested in Indigenous housing at College of New Caledonia

because we recognized that students are travelling hundreds of

kilometres away from their nation. They may be the first person in their

family to go to a community college. The model that we shaped was to

invest in not only having student housing but having an

Elder.

Those are the initiatives that we’re trying to take on. I think

the self-determination piece is…. We can’t have a one-size-fits-all to

Indigenous education when we know that there are over 200 individual

nations plus our responsibility and mandate to support Métis Nation as

well.

I hope that helps.

S. Sullivan: Thank you, Minister.

I had noted, when I was going through budgets, that some of the

stand-alone institutions have not received any funding increase at all

in the last three years. So I assume that most of this funding is going

to the larger institutions. I just think it’s important to recognize

that some of these smaller groups do provide a very, very unique and

important…. It may not be connected to a First Nation. It may be more

related to urban Aboriginals.

[10:15 a.m.]

I have a whole bunch of questions that are more details of her

ministry, but I understand the minister does not have any estimates now

of the changes that are happening. If she has received high-level

briefings, they are not of a kind that can be shared. So I am going to

shift more to other questions of policy.

Recently more than 100 leading academics, writers like Noam

Chomsky and Margaret Atwood, have warned about the impact of cancel

culture on universities. At UBC, the chancellor, who is about to

celebrate his 30th anniversary of volunteering and fundraising, had to

resign because he had liked the wrong tweets. UBC itself cancelled a

speech that had been organized by a gay Vietnamese child of refugees

about his experience with cancel culture. UBC has recently announced it

would cancel future speakers organized by students of, or connected to,

the UBC Free Speech Club. These students, young people, have been

actually targeted by people at the university.

Now, this goes against the tradition of the university of exposing

students to different ideas and to rigorously supporting free thought

and free speech and academic freedom. Some governments around the world

are tying public funding to a policy of openness, of exposing students

to a variety of opinions and to academic freedom.

My question to the minister. Has she considered implementing such

a policy that would ensure academic freedom in British

Columbia?

[10:20 a.m.]

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you to the member opposite. We have no intention here in

B.C. to tie money to academic freedom. I appreciate the policy question,

and I’m happy to have a brief with the member at a later date with

respect to estimates.

There are no decisions financially, related to our budget, to this

question. But I do want to underscore

section 48 of the University Act

on what I’m not allowed to do. A primary role as minister is to not

interfere with academic autonomy and freedom of the institutions. There

is no budget impact or decisions being made at this moment. There is no

intention to amend the University Act or the colleges act, and our role,

especially as the elected, is to respect the academic

independence.

S. Sullivan: The reason I’m not asking budget-related questions is because the

minister has not been able to give me any budget information. Clearly,

the Minister of Finance, who had committed that the ministries would be

disclosing whatever they knew…. That’s not happening right now. So I am

going to ask….

I only have time for one more question. I’m going to try to fit in

two, which I hope the minister can…. These are very detailed ones. The

Society of B.C. Veterinarians worked with the Ministry of Advanced

Education to conduct a labour market study, which demonstrated a serious

shortage of veterinarians in B.C. B.C.’s regional veterinary university,

the Western College of Veterinary Medicine, has 20 extra available seats

that B.C. can secure today.

[10:25 a.m.]

One of the questions is: why is the minister leaving qualified

B.C. students unable to get an education at this college at the rate of

$12,000 in tuition? Instead, if they go, they’re going to have to pay

$55,000 per year. I know this is supported by Minister of Agriculture

Lana Popham and recently retired chief veterinary officer Dr. Jane

Pritchard.

One other question is about the COVID recovery funds for the

Thompson Rivers University campus in Williams Lake and any new funding

for a First Nations program at the Williams Lake campus as well. If the

minister is able to give me just a few responses on that, I’d be very

grateful.

Hon. M. Mark: I just want to respond to the member opposite for his comments.

He’s repeatedly said that I am not providing detailed information. I’m a

bit disappointed that the member is suggesting that.

This process is estimates for the ministry’s budget, not the

institutions’ budgets. We’re here to discuss Budget 2020-2021. The final

numbers are not confirmed. It’s speculative, and to go on

Hansard with suggested or estimated made-up numbers is not

prudent and not responsible.

The institutions plan well in advance for their budgets because of

the way the semesters are broken up. We are aware that there will be

impacts. The Minister of Finance has made it very clear that there will

be impacts due to COVID, but we don’t know with certainty what those

numbers are at this moment.

If the member is referring to UBC, I’m aware, as UBC presented its

information to the public, what they’re forecasting. That is their

process to work with the board, and it was their choice and their

independence to do so.

I will happily give the member opposite, especially as the

representative of the official opposition, updates as we know them. But

at this point, we don’t have the details to lay out for 25 public

post-secondary institutions.

I will respond to the questions of veterinarians and the TRU

question in just a moment.

S. Sullivan: Mr. Chair, is that…?

The Chair: I think we’re waiting for the second part of the answer,

Member.

S. Sullivan: Okay. I note that the time is moving on. Can we move to the next…?

Perhaps we could get that later, when the questions…. I’d like to be

able to move to….

The Chair: Are you asking that the minister provide the answer in

writing? Would you like to move on to the next question?

S. Sullivan: Perhaps. Or even toward the end of the session when I have other

questions.

The Chair: Minister, it’s your prerogative, I suppose.

[10:30 a.m.]

S. Sullivan: I’m conscious of time, and I want to make sure all of my fellow

MLAs get their questions in.

The Chair: Yes, I know the feeling. It’s all good.

Hon. M. Mark: Member, it’s entirely your choice. We can respond at the end or

give you a written response to the veterinary question, the TRU

question, on First Nations funding. It’s entirely your time.

S. Sullivan: Thank you.

The Chair: Thank you, Minister.

I think we are moving to the member for Columbia

River–​Revelstoke.

D. Clovechok: Thank you to my colleague from Vancouver–False Creek for the

opportunity today, and also, thanks to the minister for the opportunity

to have a conversation about a few things.

The minister may know that during estimates with the

Transportation Minister, I confirmed that the addition of the CBA

agreement in relation to the Trans-Canada Highway project had added

around $35 million to the overall cost of the project and that the

creation of this agreement was about jobs training and apprenticeships.

With that said, even though the agreement has excluded thousands of

workers who are not part of the NDP’s chosen unions….

My first question. Will the minister please tell us how much of

the $35 million has been allocated to her budget for

training?

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you to the member for the question.

As the member may be aware, CBAs are within the responsibility of

the Minister of Finance. I’m responsible for the Industry Training

Authority, and their budget — it’s one of my Crowns — is $98.9 million

annually.

D. Clovechok: So I’m to understand, then, that none of that $35 million,

although it’s focused on apprenticeship training, which I would assume

goes through the minister’s ministry…. None of that money has been

allocated to the minister and her ministry, even though that ministry is

responsible for the training.

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you, Member, for the question.

We provide $99 million to the Industry Training Authority to

deliver on-demand trades training programs throughout the province. The

CBAs are the responsibility of the Ministry of Finance.

D. Clovechok: I certainly understand the point that she just made. But if the

$35 million has been allocated for apprenticeship training and

continuing education training, then is the money associated with that

training coming out of the minister’s direct budget, or is it going to

be coming from the Finance Minister?

[10:35 a.m.]

Hon. M. Mark: Member, you’ll have to ask the Minister of Finance that

question.

D. Clovechok: I find it a little perplexing when the Minister of Advanced

Education, who is responsible for the apprenticeships, doesn’t have an

answer as to how those apprenticeships will be paid for. Again, let me

try it a different way. Will the apprenticeships that are associated

with the CBA agreements actually be the responsibility of this

minister?

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you to the member.

The Industry Training Authority works with the B.C. Infrastructure

Benefits Corp. They work together to make sure that the appropriate

apprenticeship training is in place. But the ITA does that within their

$99 million budget. The $35 million that the member is asking about is

best asked of the Minister of Finance. The ITA does not receive extra

funding. They facilitate the training across the province within their

$99 million.

D. Clovechok: That still doesn’t answer my question of where that $35 million is

going. But we’ll move on from that. On the record, then, it would seem

that the minister does not have any access to those dollars. So it’s a

bit of a mystery where those dollars will go.

[10:40 a.m.]

Moving along. Given the minister is responsible for advanced

education and training and apprenticeships and continuing education, I

wondered if the minister could tell us and share with us, to date, what

post-secondary institutions her ministry has been in contact with in

terms of delivering CBA training, whether it be continuing education or

apprenticeships for the project.

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you to the member for the question.

I just want to clarify a point around the training. When we’re

thinking of the trades and the apprenticeship system, 80 percent of the

training is on the job; 20 percent is in-class instruction. The Industry

Training Authority funds the in-class training component.

With respect to the member’s question around training for CBAs at

institutes, there are lots of layers to that question that we’ll have to

follow up with greater detail. There are public institutes, there are

private institutes, and there are different training facilities. So

there are lots of layers to that question that I’d be happy to get in

writing for the member.

D. Clovechok: I would appreciate that information as soon as I possibly can have

it.

Given that this project is going to be in the ground this fall,

the question I would have, then, is twofold. Can the minister give us an

understanding of how her ministry has reached out to Indigenous

communities in that particular area, which is in my riding — either the

Shuswap, Ktunaxa or the Métis people — to look at apprenticeship or con

ed training?

[10:45 a.m.]

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you to the member for the questions, though. With respect to

the twinning of the highway, the ITA works with the BCIB, the B.C.

Infrastructure Benefits Corp., to help build relationships with the

nations. I’m sorry. I didn’t catch all the nations that the member

opposite addressed.

The ITA’s apprenticeship advisers act as conduits to build those

relationships and work together to identify the trades training

needs.

The Chair: Member, after your question, let’s take a

four-and-a-half-minute break.

D. Clovechok: I understand the role of the ITA very well, actually. My question

is: how, then, has the ITA reached out to the Shuswap, Ktunaxa or Métis?

As it is one of the key components within that CBA agreement, the First

Nations will have the opportunity to have those training opportunities.

So I understand their role. I would like to know where we are with that

reach out and what’s going to happen with that.

The Chair: While we await the answer, let’s resume at 10:53. We are in

recess until 10:53.

The committee recessed from 10:48 a.m. to 10:53 a.m.

[N. Simons in the chair.]

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you for the break. It gave me a chance to do a quick consult

with the CEO of the Industry Training Authority, Shelley Gray. We will

get a detailed response to the member in writing.

I think that the spirit of self-determination is to understand

what the needs of the Ktunaxa, the Métis and the Shuswap are, knowing

that they will be unique. I don’t have the details on hand, but I’m

happy to follow up as quickly as possible to get you the details of what

the advisers are doing up in your territory related to the twinning of

the highway.

D. Clovechok: Well, thank you for that. I look forward to that information. In

time, I would love to have the entire rest of the day to chat about this

with the minister. But I don’t. I’ve got colleagues stacking up behind

me.

Last question, two parts. I want to go back to something that was

a little kind of glazed over. I’d just like to know if the minister, the

ITA or the BCIB…. Have they reached out to the local colleges and spoken

with them about the apprenticeship training?

The second part of that question is: given that this project is

slated to start this fall, how many actual apprenticeships have been

secured, either through the ITA or whatever means that are appropriate?

How many actual apprenticeships are there in relationship to the work

actually starting this fall?

[10:55 a.m.]

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you, again, to the member opposite. I don’t wish to be

repeating myself, but I’m not responsible for the administration of the

community benefits agreements.

As the minister responsible for the colleges and institutions and

the Industry Training Authority…. The ITA is always working with the

public institutions that do deliver trades training. We’re always

looking at in-demand seats and apprenticeship opportunities. That is

fully within my purview, but I do not have the details for the member on

how many apprenticeships are working on this project. I suggest that the

member opposite raise those questions with the Minister of

Finance.

B. Stewart: Minister, thank you for your time today. It’s

appreciated.

I guess that while I’m giving out thanks, I should let you know

that we were thrilled by the recent announcement by UBC — the downtown

campus that was announced on the old Kelowna Daily Courier

site. That is a great addition and very visionary of the people that are

part of UBC in terms of their overall….

I just wanted to let you know that that is really a game-changer.

The downtown campus and the way that the city of Kelowna has been

growing has been…. We’ve been working on this for a long time in terms

of the innovation centre. The synergies that are presented help

diversify the economy, and the addition of UBC in 2005, the medical

school…. They’ve all been great additions. I think you probably know the

numbers better than anybody in terms of that, and we do want to see that

continue to develop.

The other thing that I wouldn’t want to miss is the investment at

Okanagan College, which has created its own set of pressures. Both

campuses are close to a population of around 10,000.

I just want to talk to you about capital investments. Out of the

$504 million that is scheduled in your ministry, I’m just wondering what

portions of that are coming to UBC Okanagan and Okanagan College and for

what projects.

[11:00 a.m.]

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you to the member for the question, and thank you for your

opening remarks around the expansion of UBCO’s campus. My in-laws live

in Kelowna.

The innovation centre is amazing. They’ve got one of the best

rooftops in town. I wasn’t there for the announcement, but I know that

the mayor and local officials were really ecstatic about the growth and,

as you say, just looking into the future and diversifying the economy —

very supportive of that.

A big value of mine is to bring opportunity closer to home. I’m a

Lower Mainland–Vancouver MLA. But I’ve got deep roots in the north, and

I really always want to see those opportunities outside of

Hope.

[11:05 a.m.]

To the other questions that the member has asked, there have been

recent capital projects at Okanagan College. There’s the health sciences

building replacement. It was a total of $18.9 million, with $15.4

million from the province. That’s going to be a 2,800-square-metre

health sciences centre with integrated learning, etc.

UBCO has student housing — it’s called the Skeena student housing

— with $25 million in the budget, $18.7 million from the provincial

government through our B.C. housing loan program.

There are a couple of projects at the business planning stage. At

Okanagan College, there’s a health and wellness centre and a centre for

food, wine and tourism. Last but not least, I’m hoping to have some good

news in the fall with respect to student housing at Okanagan

College.

Hopefully, that helps.

B. Stewart: Minister, I had the opportunity to tour the new health sciences

building. I had been a part of the Trades Training Centre. It’s a great

building.

One of the things that I’ve heard from the institutions here in

the Interior, including UBC Okanagan college as well as TRU, is still a

shortage of physical and occupational therapy programs and training. I’m

just wondering. Is that something that the ministry is looking actively

at?

I know that these things take years to get to fruition. I’m glad

to hear about the wine and tourism centre, as you can imagine. But I do

think that this shortage and collaboration between KGH and IHA, as well

as all those institutions in that area, is…. There’s a shortage of it.

That is what I’m told.

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you for the question. I appreciate the question from the

member opposite.

I’m aware of the need for more health professionals — such as

occupational therapists, health care assistants and nurses — in

communities across the province. In 2019, I announced the first

diagnostic sonography program in the north, the first occupational and

physical therapy program in the north and the first bachelor of nursing

program in the north. I guess why I’m mentioning that is to underscore

“the first.”

[11:10 a.m.]

Building out these programs across the province takes partnership.

It’s working with the ministry. It’s working with the Ministry of

Health. It’s working with the health authorities. It’s making sure that

the institutions have the capacity.

I can assure you that in the last three years, since I’ve been

minister…. Sometimes people have brought forward things to my attention,

but they haven’t done the partnership work and laid out the plan and

presented the proposal.

At this moment in time, I’m not aware of a proposal that has been

brought forward from Okanagan College or Thompson Rivers University. I

don’t have that level of detail in front of me right now. My ministry is

happy to follow up with the Ministry of Health to look at this, as well

as the institutions, to see how we can move forward.

I can assure you that people were jumping off the ground at UNBC

to have the opportunity to have those opportunities close to home. It

was eight years of advocacy.

We’ll follow up. Thank you for the question.

B. Stewart: Minister, thank you for that. I think that the success of creating

universities across the province — like UNBC, UBC Okanagan, TRU,

Vancouver Island University and on and on — has shown that there is a

thirst and an appetite for a higher level of education in those areas. I

know that the funds are not unlimited, and I do appreciate

that.

I don’t know if you’re aware that Okanagan College has the highest

First Nation student population in the province. I only found that out

because I was on the campaign team for the trades training centre. It’s

important because of the fact that we do want to make certain that

they’re able to help in their communities.

I guess the concern, or the storm clouds that are out there, is

with the student population at these institutions. Where is the

shortfall of the revenues, of these institutions in the Okanagan Valley,

going to come out of in your budget? I’m told that it’s in the

neighbourhood of…. It could be as much as in the hundreds of millions of

dollars, in terms of revenue from student registrations.

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you to the member for the question. I have addressed this

question already.

It’s premature to speculate on what the numbers look like. We

won’t know until the fall, when students…. Some students apply to a

number of universities, not sure where they’re going to get accepted,

whether they’re going to make the move or not. It’s not until the final

stages, at the end of September, when they’re actually attending the

school, that we’re going to know the exact numbers.

I have stated previously to the official opposition critic that it

is irresponsible to just throw out numbers. I appreciate that you’ve

heard numbers, but I, as minister, don’t want to throw out numbers. I do

want to throw out that what we have heard is that the domestic enrolment

forecasts are strong. I have anecdotally heard, from presidents across

the province, that the enrolments are looking strong.

B. Stewart: I wanted to thank the minister for that. I appreciate her

forthright answers there and look forward to the outcome being a

success.

The Chair: Member, thank you for your questions.

S. Cadieux: Good morning, Minister. Hello to your staff behind the

scenes.

Can the minister give me the number for the annual provincial

funding for the Police Academy at the Justice Institute?

[11:15 a.m.]

Hon. M. Mark: Nice to see the member opposite.

The Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General provides the

Justice Institute of British Columbia with a $1.9 million annual grant

to operate the Police Academy at the JI.

S. Cadieux: Is that a change from previous? My understanding was that the

Ministry of Solicitor General provided guidance in terms of content but

that the Ministry of Advanced Education provided, essentially, the block

of funding for the JIBC to actually operate the academy.

Hon. M. Mark: There hasn’t been a change. Our ministry provides the operating

grant to the JIBC of $13 million. The $1.9 million grant is provided

directly from the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor

General.

S. Cadieux: Given the Justice Institute does fall under Advanced Ed overall,

does the minister know the maximum number of recruits the Justice

Institute can put through in a year? I understand, as well, part of the

funding for the Police Academy ends up being through tuition. But at the

current allocation and the current structure of the JIBC, is there a

maximum number of recruits they can train?

Hon. M. Mark: To the member, we will get that in writing for you, if that’s

okay. We don’t have the level of detail with us on hand, but we will

contact the Justice Institute right away and get back to you.

S. Cadieux: Thank you, Minister. That would be fine.

The minister will be aware of the transition that is underway,

which the province has approved, for Surrey — for their police to move

from the RCMP to a municipal force. With that, there’s going to be

significant pressure on the Justice Institute.

[11:20 a.m.]

Can the minister tell me the content and what discussions she has

had with her colleague the Solicitor General in relation to the need for

additional funding for the Justice Institute, given that the green light

to move forward has been approved by the province and that the board for

the police in Surrey has been appointed by the Solicitor

General?

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you for the question. To your one question…. Have I met with

the minister? I have not met with the minister to discuss this, but our

ministries are working closely together. We’re working closely with the

Ministry of Solicitor General to determine what the training needs are

and the budget implications of those training needs. We’re in the

planning stages, but it’s ministry to ministry at this point.

S. Cadieux: Well, thank you. That’s interesting to hear. The Wally Oppal

report clearly states that there will be an annual increase demand of at

least 30 percent for the Justice Institute, which is significant, and

that’s an “at least.”

The question, then, falls: how will the Justice Institute be able

to meet that demand? Obviously, there will need to be additional funding

from the province, whether that be through the Solicitor General’s

ministry or through the Advanced Education Ministry. Regardless, that

money will have to come from somewhere.

The plan for the Surrey police transition has the need for those

recruits to be trained within about the next 18 months, being generous,

assuming their plan gets delayed somewhat. That’s a significant ramp-up

and would need to be covered in this three-year budget plan. Does the

minister have, in her three-year budget, additional funding for the

Justice Institute to meet the increased demand?

[11:25 a.m.]

Hon. M. Mark: Thanks to the member for the question.

The Justice Institute, PSSG and our ministry are working on the

plans of implementation. As the member appreciates — and I appreciate —

there is a tight time frame. The Minister of Solicitor General and I

would have to go for a joint treasury request and ask for the funding.

At this moment in time, there’s no funding currently in my budget, but

our ministries are working together to identify the training needs, the

capacity and working on the plan as we speak.

S. Cadieux: That will be a good one to take forward because this is going to

be significant.

There are eight pages of the Wally Oppal report that specifically

reference the need for the Justice Institute to be adequately financed

to be able to accommodate a transition of this size, meaning more than

800 recruits are going to need to be trained, whether that be for Surrey

or to replace the ones they draw from other precincts in the Lower

Mainland. That’s going to be a significant increase over what the

Justice Institute has been able to train to date.

Certainly, between the Wally Oppal report for the province that

outlines this as one of the significant risks to the transition that is

being proposed for Surrey and also the Peter German and Bob Rolls report

for the municipal chiefs of police that was prepared in 2017 about the

inadequacies of the Justice Institute training to begin with, there are

some significant challenges on the horizon for the Justice Institute and

for the province to accommodate in order to accommodate the transition

for Surrey. At the moment, 80 percent of Surrey residents are not in

favour of this transition to begin with.

The Surrey city budget is being significantly pressured by the

transition, and certainly taxpayers are saying they have no ability to

pay for more. There are significant costs for the province and for this

ministry in relation to the Justice Institute. So I’m glad that the

minister is working with the Solicitor General and that the ministries

are working together on this, but certainly the transparency on the

costs that the taxpayers of the province are going to pick up, whichever

ministry that’s going to be through, it sounds like that’s going to be a

joint application to Treasury Board for money that doesn’t exist in the

budget. That’s a significant concern.

I appreciate that the minister is working on it. I’m surprised she

hasn’t actually had any actual conversations with her colleagues on it,

given the political ramifications of this decision to allow Surrey to

move forward. But I appreciate that she’ll get back to me on the

questions I raised at the beginning, regarding the number of recruits

that are currently trained or able to be trained with the current

allocation at the Justice Institute.

[11:30 a.m.]

I look forward to, through the coming months, getting a clearer

understanding for the constituents of Surrey, both my own riding and all

of the others, of what the implications of this transition actually mean

to the taxpayers of British Columbia.

I appreciate that at the moment, the minister doesn’t have answers

to any of the questions, but hopefully, having raised them here today,

the level of importance or transparency on this issue will be evident to

government and they will look forward to producing that clarity for the

residents of British Columbia in the future.

With that, I will end off on my questions and thank the minister

and her staff for the answers.

Hon. M. Mark: I’d like to acknowledge the member’s comments. My constituency is

very different than yours. You are facing something that I am not. This

is a file that’s predominantly led by the Solicitor General.

With all due respect, I completely value transparency. Telling the

member opposite that I didn’t meet with the minister is to be

transparent that…. I may not, but our staff are working hard. I want to

acknowledge the work of our staff on this file and the issues that have

been raised. And to also recognize that we are…. There has been a lot of

discussion about the pandemic, but the pandemic does have an impact on

people’s capacity to meet, and raising this with me is exactly what

estimates is all about. I’m happy to have my staff follow up and get

some details to you as quickly as possible.

Thank you for that, for advocating on behalf of your

constituents.

J. Thornthwaite: I’ve just got one question. What is the government doing to

support colleges and universities to deal with the added safety expenses

to deal with COVID as well as the additional technological requirements

to teach and support students in a virtual environment?

[11:35 a.m.]

Hon. M. Mark: Nice to see the member opposite. Thank you for the

question.

The public post-secondary institutions are managing their costs

for cleaning supplies within their existing budgets, as well as managing

the tech-related online expenses within their existing

budgets.

With respect to my ministry, we’ve invested $400,000 specifically

for open education resources that are available at no cost to students

and instructors across a wide range of subject areas. This will help,

just so that institutions don’t have to recreate the wheel on the

delivery of popular curriculum and that they’re sharing and pooling

their best practices together.

Institutions are also working with BCNET on joint procurement to

obtain reduced-cost access to software and hardware. Essentially, it’s a

bulk purchasing venue for the institutions to purchase from.

L. Throness: I have a simple factual question for the minister today about

early childhood educators. I’m wondering, for the latest period of

record, how many training spots in total there are in the province for

early childhood educators. I’m wondering how many students are actually

occupying those spots. Third, I’m wondering how many qualified early

childhood educators we actually have in the province.

It’s a three-part statistical question. I’m wondering if the

minister can address those for me.

[11:40 a.m.]

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you to the member opposite for the question.

I’m deeply passionate about addressing the qualified piece of

early childhood educators. I just want to recognize the important work

that they do across the province.

We often say it’s not babysitting. We want ECEs to be trained and

qualified, and there’s a breadth of training that is offered through

certificates or diplomas. We’ve been piloting a work-integrated learning

model, where students are getting the training on the job with children

— what a concept — and then spending 20 percent of their time in the

classroom. We’re really trying to turn the dial on the way we offer

training.

To the first question that the member opposite asked, in 2019, we

funded, through our block funding, 1,800 seats.

To the second question, government announced targeted funding

investments, as you’re likely aware as the critic. This was $7.4 million

over three years to fund 800 new seats. Maybe our 2(

b) question, this

year we’ve committed $3.2 million to fund 349 FTEs.

On the third question, around how many ECEs are qualified across

the system, this falls within the responsibility of the Ministry of

Children and Family Development. We will work together to get that data

to you and follow up in writing, if that’s amenable to the

member.

L. Throness: Thank you for that answer. Perhaps I don’t understand

fully.

What I’m wondering, in the second part of the question, is: how

many people are actually occupying the 1,800 seats that the ministry

funds? I’ve heard that in some cases, it’s oversubscribed. I’ve heard

that in other cases, there are empty seats. I’m wondering how many seats

last year were actually filled with students.

[11:45 a.m.]

Hon. M. Mark: Thank you to the member opposite for the question. For the 1,800

students that I mentioned for 2019, we will have to get you that level

of detail on how it translates into seats.

I guess what I would just like to point out…. People at home who

are reading Hansard or listening might not understand that

there are public post-secondary institutions and there are private

post-secondary institutions. The publics don’t all offer ECE programs.

Some of them offer them at different levels.

The details to your answer, we will get back to you in writing, if

that’s okay. Again, because the level…. Most of the certificate and the

diploma course offerings would be at places like Douglas College or

Camosun College. Capilano University offers a degree. The range of the

ecosystem across the province varies.

When the member raises the issue of oversubscribed or some empty,

I think just also to point out that our ecosystem varies by region. Our

government is really trying to bring opportunities closer to home. So

we’re very happy to be at the College of the Rockies. It’s a big deal

for them to have early childhood educators there, and I’m glad that

we’ve invested. But the need and range across the province

varies.

We will get those numbers to you on utilization. Hopefully….

Sometimes the oversubscribed is a good sign. The undersubscribed means

that there’s always work to do to raise awareness about the importance

of various professions, like ECE or the trades.

S. Sullivan: I do have a number of questions, but I don’t think they seem to be

fitting in the estimates. Perhaps I need to get a clarification from the

Clerk.

When my questions are about the forecasted expenditures — of

course, we’ve had COVID intervene — I would like to know a range or a

percentage or a trend. Is that appropriate? It seems to be that

different estimates are handling these in different ways. I just want to

make sure I’m doing this properly, so if I could get a clarification

from the Clerk. What am I able to ask? Am I able to ask about a range of

percentages or estimates? Or what direction from the forecasted

estimates?

My sense is that…. This process is not called “certainties.” It’s

called “estimates.” I think estimates would be fair game, but I’d like

to get the Clerk to identify that.

[11:50 a.m.]

The Chair: Thank you, Member. I recognize your question is

on….

The minister is here to answer on Vote 12, and where there’s a

breadth of opportunities to answer questions, the minister doesn’t

have to do any projections beyond what is stated in Vote 12

specifically. So you can continue to ask questions, and the minister

can continue to provide answers as she sees fit.

S. Sullivan: Yeah. I’m just referring to parliamentary procedure 12.7.3, “Scope

of Debate,” ministry questions about plans and proposed spending and

relevancy from point 4. It does seem that these questions are

relevant.

I’ll try another approach. B.C. has about 59,000 international

students. Are there any updated projections for the international

student enrolment and the financial implication that means to

post-secondary institutions? Are there any plans to cover the published

shortfalls?

Recently the minister assumed that 60 percent of international

students have stayed in B.C. Is this minister working with the

assumption that all those will return to school in the fall? What is the

ministry doing to help to prepare post-secondary institutions for 40

percent of international students not showing up in the fall?

[11:55 a.m.]

Hon. M. Mark: To the member’s question. I want to speak very briefly to the

remarks that were made earlier, just to clarify Vote 12 and the

process.

I have the authority to talk about our budget, to put it into

context. To speak about any of the public institutions’ budgets, with

their own different revenue sources, is not within my responsibility,

and that’s what I want to clarify. UBC, SFU, Okanagan College can all be

getting different revenue sources from a variety of means. So that is

the inappropriate part — talking about their budgets.

As I’ve said before, I’m completely happy to update you, as the

critic, as I get more information. But I think we’re all in the middle

of COVID and waiting to see what the numbers are going to look like. I

want to remain optimistic. I think measures are being taken by the

provincial health officer and WorkSafeBC to get kids and students back

on campus so that they’re safe.

That work is being done by the public service, all in tandem,

because we can’t forget that the pandemic hit and we moved a dial. We’re

trying to move that dial back so that people feel safe. We want to also

send the message that this is temporary until we get a

vaccination.

To the question of international students, this has come up quite

a bit. There were 78,000 international students. Anecdotally, we’re

hearing from the public post-secondary institutions that they’ve

retained 60 percent. As the member knows, due to the borders, we haven’t

had the opportunity to open up the doors. We’re seeking that counsel and

direction from the federal government.

We’re working with the ministry of immigration to do our level

best to maintain, if not increase, the numbers of international students

here in B.C. Some of the measures that have been taken…. The federal

government has agreed to provide visas to students to register at

institutions and study remotely in their home countries. So they are

trying to work innovatively and through technology.

Another measure the feds are taking is that they’ve issued

specific guidelines for international students to come to British

Columbia. These guidelines are fresh off the press from the federal

government. They acknowledge across the country that we do want to

welcome students back. We see the benefits of international students in

British Columbia and the diversification of what they bring to

community. Hopefully….

There are many of our students that want to study abroad. So we

all have the same interest to mitigate the loss of opportunity for

students. It’s not just international. It’s domestics who are all facing

uncertainty on what’s to come in September.

The Chair: Colleagues, thank you for all your questions and the answers

this morning.

S. Sullivan: Chair, can I clarify one issue?

The Chair: If you take less than 43 seconds.

S. Sullivan: Yes. I just want to make sure my MLAs are going to have valuable

time this afternoon. We’re not really asking for speculation. We’re

asking just for clarification on published data. There has been this

huge issue called COVID that has intervened, and I just wanted to make

sure that we get value time from the afternoon.

This is all about forecasted expenditures and clarification for

any changes, any trends, any percentages. We don’t want to have the

minister on record for speculation or anything. I just hope to set the

framework there for the afternoon.

The Chair: Thank you, Member. I’m sure we will stick to Vote 12 in the

afternoon.

Hon. M. Mark: I move that the committee rise and report progress on the

estimates of the Ministry of Advanced Education, Skills and

Training.

Motion approved.

The Chair: Thank you, Members. We’ll see you after lunch.

The committee adjourned at 12 noon.

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