Manitoba Hansard — 16 March 1992 (Sitting 30A, 35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-30a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Third Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 39-40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLI No. 30A • 1 :30 p.m., MONDAY, MARCH 16, 1992 Printed by the Office of the Q.-s Printer, Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Memb ers, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACOUAY, Louise DERK ACH, Leonard , Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Ciif EVANS, Leonar d S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste .

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burro ws Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Ain Aon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River PARTY Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

1248 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, March 16, 1992 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Oscar Lathlln (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Arthur Desjarlais, Joseph Cote , Chris Desjarlais and others requesting the gove rnm ent show its strong comm itment to aboriginal sel f-go vernmen t by considering reve rsing its position on the AJI by supporting the rec omme ndations within its jur isdiction and implemen ting a sep arate and parallel justice syste m. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition o f Maureen Kaiser, Linda Jeff rey, Andrea Badgley and others requesting the Minister of Jus tice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code to prevent the release of individuals where there is substantial likelihood of further family violence. Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of G.M.

Ralph, Bolena Hunek, Lena Haddad and other s requesting the Minister of Ju stice call upon the Parliamen t of Canada to amend the Criminal Cod e to prevent the release of individuals where there is a substantial likelihood of further family violence. Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Michelle Frankton, Dawn Pullon, Darcy Norm and and oth er s requesting the Minister of Justice call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code to prevent the release of individuals where there is a substantial likelihood of further family violence.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the w ill of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: The Aboriginal Justice Inquiry was launched in April of 1988 to conduct an examination of the relationship between the justice system and aboriginal peopl e; and The AJI delivered its report in August of 1991 and concluded that the justice syste m has been a massive failure for aboriginal people; and The AJI report endorsed the inherent right of aborig inal se lf-government and the right of aboriginal commun ities to est ablish an abori ginal justice syste m; and The Canadian Bar Association, The Law Reform Commis sion of Canada, among many others, also rec ommend both aboriginal se lf-go vernment and a separate and parallel justice syste m; and On January 28, 1992, five months after releasing the report, the provincial gove rnment announced it was not prepared to proceed with the majority of the recommendatio ns; and Despite the All-Party Task Force Report which endorsed aboriginal se lf-gove rnment, the provi ncial go vernment now rejects a separ ate and parallel justice system, an Aboriginal Jus tice Commission and many ot her key recommendations which are solely within provi ncial jurisdiction .

WHEREFORE your petit ioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the gove rnment of Manitoba sho w a strong com mi tme nt to abor iginal self-go vernmen t by conside ring reversing its position on the AJ I by suppo rting the rec omm endations within its jur isdiction and implem enting a se parate and parallel justice system. (Mr. Lathlin) * * * I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and com plies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read ?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

1249 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 16, 1992 The bail review provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that accused offe nders, including those suspected of conjugal or family violence, be released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and The problem of conjugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all Canadians and req uires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk, particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the province of Manitoba may be pleased to req uest that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to permit the courts to prevent the release of individuals where it is shown that there is a substantial likelihood of fur ther conjugal or fam ily violence being perpetrated. (Mr. Reid) I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read ?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that : The bail review pro visions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that accused offende rs, Including those suspected of con jugal or family violence, be released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and The problem of conj ugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all Canadians and req uires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk, particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the province of Manitoba may be pleased to req uest that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to permit the courts to prevent the release of individuals where it is shown that there is a substantial likelihood of fur ther conj uga l or fam ily violenc e being perpetrat ed. (Mr. Chomiak) I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: The bail review pro visions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that accused off enders, including those suspected of con jugal or family violence, be released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and The problem of conj ugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all Canadians and req uires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk, particularly women and children, be protected from further harm.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the province of Manitoba may be pleased to req uest that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to permit the courts to prevent the release of individuals where it is shown that there is a substantial likelihood of fur ther conjugal or fam ily viole nce be ing perpetrated. (Mr. Clif Evans) *

(1335) MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABUNG OF REPORTS Hon. Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table with the House the Annual Report of the ministry of Natural Resources for the year '90-91. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister responsible for The Fitness and Amateur Sport Act) : Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial statement.

One week ago, it was with great pleasure that I rose before the members and, on behalf of the mem bers and citizens of Manitoba, took the opportunity of congratulating Connie Laliberte and her Fort Rouge rink of Laurie Allen, Cathy Gauthier, Janet Arnott and Arlene Macleod on winning the Scott Tou rnament of Hearts Canadian women's curling championship. It is with that same great pleasure that I rise again today to extend congratulations to Manitoba's new Canadian men's curling champion s-- Vic Peters

March 16, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 1250 and his rink from the Granite Curling Club, Dan Carey, Chris Neufeld, Don Rudd and fifth man, John Loxton. While the Peters rink had previously served notice in Manitoba curling circles as a provincial runner-up on several occasions and has had some success on the major bonspiel circuit, it was the rink's first Brier.

To their credit, in what was perhaps regarded the strongest ever Brier field, the Peters rink completed round robin play in first place and then treated curling enthusiasts to a thrilling, strategically played final against former world champion Russ Howard. Like the women before them, the Peters rink has brought pride and distinction, through curling, to themselves, their families, the Granite Curling Club and the province of Manitoba.

The Peters victory now gives Manitoba its 23rd Brier championship and duplicates the feat of 1984 when rinks skipped by Connie Laliberte and Mike Riley won both the Canadian women's and men's championships. Both went on to the World Curling Championships in 1984, and I would ask all members to join me in extending best wishes to Connie Laliberte, Vic Peters and their rinks as they move on to represent Manitoba and Canada at this year's World Curling Championship s in Garmisch-Partenkirchen, Germany, on March 28 to April5. On one other point, there were two other teams that deserve recognition in the House today.

The Canadian University Athletic Union women's volleyball championship was determined over the weekend, and the final featured both Winnipeg universities. The University of Manitoba Lady Bisons eventually claimed their third consecutive national championship with a four-set victory over the University of Winnipeg Lady Wesmen. I would ask all members to join me in congratulating the members of these teams as well for excellent seasons and for providing Manitoba with national recognition through the outstanding women's volleyball programs of both universities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Cllf Evans (Interlake}: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to also add our congratulations to Vic Peters and his rink from the Granite Curling Club. As we are certainly aware, it is the first time since 1984 that Manitoba has captured the Canadian championship and to represent Canada in the world curling spiel in Germany this upcoming week or two.

For those of us who were able to follow Vic Peters rink throughout the week, we noted a splendid performance, ending up in first place overall, getting a buy into the final, and if we were able to watch yesterday's game against Russ Howard, the previous world champion, or a world champion of his own, I am sure that many of us spent quite a bit of time in front of that TV chewing our nails as, I may add, I did, for sure. We on this side of the House offer our congratulations, not only to Vic Peters and his rink, but to Connie Laliberte and her rink and wish them all the very, very best.

I think we are aware that not only do we have excellent representatives in the curling, but we have excellent ambassadors representing not only Manitoba but Canada in the upcoming world championships. On behalf of our side, we offer our very, very best congratulations and best wishes for the upcoming worlds. *

(1340) Mr. Guizar Cheerna (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, we would also like to join with the members of this House in extending our best wishes to the Manitoba teams. While I was talking to my Leader, I was trying to come up with the correct pronunciation of Connie Laliberte, and I think I corrected myself there. I would like to extend our best wishes to Vic Peters and the rest of the team. They have done a wonderful job, and they have given a good name to the people of Manitoba.

Also, as the minister has mentioned, Connie Laliberte won the Canadian championship in 1984, and both Vic Peters and Connie will be representing Manitoba by the end of this month in Germany. Mr. Speaker, we would also like to extend our best wishes to the other two teams, the University of Manitoba's team for volleyball-win. We wish them the best of luck and again would like the minister to convey our best wishes to both teams. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance}: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the first Quarterly Financial Report of the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and CHizenshlp}: Mr. Speaker, it is with pleasure that I table Issues, Trends and Options: Mechanism s for the Accreditation of Foreign Credentials in Manitoba, the Executive

Summary. I also have a statement for the House.

1251 LEGISLA TIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 16, 1992 Manitoba is an exciting and dynamic commun ity with many proud traditions. Perhaps our greatest tradition is that of welcoming the people of all race s, religions and cultures. The multicultural fabric of our provi nce has been rewoven again and again, bec oming richer and mo re di verse in its composition. Mr. Speaker, I have just tabled the executive

summary of the report prepared by the Working Group on Immigrant Credentials. This report will guide us as we take steps to help immigrants use the skills and talents they bring to our pro vince. As we approach the 21 st Centu ry, people from every country, every continent around the globe are still choosing to come to Canada and to Manitoba. In the past, immigrants have been recognized as a resource of immens e value to our future growth and development, and this view has not changed.

What has changed Is our society, and many areas of our educational institutions, trades and professions are on the leading edge of modern technologies, theories and practices. Our ability to keep abreast of these changes has created problems in being able to set standards to assess the offs hore credentials of newcomers. This problem Is a serious one that needs to be reso lved. The failure to address it adequately robs our new immigrants of access to a better future and deprives the greater commun ity of the pote ntial benefits of their contributions.

This awareness has led us to take positive measures, such as our creation in February 1991 of the Citizenship Division of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. By bringing the Immigration and Settl ement Services Branch from Family Services and the Adult Language Training branch and Working Group on Immigrant Credentials from Education and Training into one opera tion, we created a vehicle which has the ability to mo ve decisively to meet the needs of the immigrant population in Manitoba. Already we are experiencing positive results of this reorganizational move.

The Worki ng Group on Immigrant Credentials recently delivered to me this comprehensive report on their findings, and we ha ve been able to reac t qu ickly to the recommendations. As a res ult, Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to announce we have comm itted $150,000 in new mo ney towards the imme diate implemen tation of many of the rec ommen dations outlined.

Throu gh this funding and the redirection of extensive internal resources of the department, we have est ablished an Immigrant Credentials and Labour Market Branch within the Citizenship Division of Culture, Heritage and Citize nship. * (1 345) One of the report's strongest recom mendations is the est ablishment of a central clearing-house with internat ional, national and pro vincial links to assess fore ign credentials. The branch will be just such a clearing-house.

It will begin by es tablishing a data bank which allows educ ational institutions and credential granting bodies to access information from for eign degree-granti ng institution s. This data bank will be an imme nsely important resource in the scree ning and evaluation of of fshore credentials presented to us. The branch will immed iately begin developing a directory of how credentials are granted in the various trades and professi ons. Steps will then be taken to ensure this directory is made available to every Canadian em bassy, consulate or other fore ign post around the world .

The data bank and directory will be further supported by a credential assessment officer. The officer will assis t immig rants in accessing information about having their own degrees and credenti als recognized in Canada. The credentials assessment officer will also work very closely with Immig rants, helping them access training opportu nities with additional training as required to meet Canadian standards of certification in their field. Throu gh this new branch, we will begin working imme diately with variou s institutions at all levels to facilitate the process of how credentials are granted.

The branch will be responsible for identifying the demands of Manitoba's various labour markets. It will work close ly with business, trade and Industrial sectors to identify growth areas and provide effective support mechanisms. This will include a strong em phasis on Iden tifying specific skill sh orta ges and then propo sing immigr ant recruitment plans to meet those shortages . It will work to est ablish ties with educational institutions, pro fessional and trade associations and comm unity organizati ons, taking appropriate actions to bring this initiative into full opera tion.

It will not be an instant overnight fix. It is an import ant first step in opening doors for immigrants. We are confident that this branch will help us to better utilize our human resources right here in Manitoba. These resources, Mr. Speaker, cannot

March 16, 1992 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA 1252 be overlooked if we are to improve Manitoba's place within the Canadian economy. Thank you. Ms. Marianne Cerllll {Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to respond to the minister's statement about this very important issue for newcom ers to Manit oba. Not having their credentials and prior experience recognized in Canada has been one of the key issues among the multicultural communities.

I would just like to encourage the government to make sure that this system becomes truly a way of assisting people and does not become anoth er barrier, another bureaucratic barrier and amount of red tape that they have to wind their way through. A credentials and skills evaluation network is available in other jurisdictions.

I would encourage the government to spend the money to purchase the computer system so that Manitoba can access that, also to tie this in with other immigration policies like the focus on the investor class, which may decrease the number of professional immigrants who we have coming to Manitoba, to tie this program into other programs like English language training, English as a second language training, so that when people come here and have the academic qualifications, but what is really the barrier is that they need to improve their English, to see that this is also provided for and that programs which have been taught at Red River are reinstated to support this kind of a positive initiative.

We will be watching to see that the full range of recommendations made in this report are implemented, specifically the ones that are going to deal with the professional and trade associations that are providing a variety of barriers and are not regulated in any way in this province. We will be lookin g forward to see ing the go vernment implement the many recommendations in this report. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux {Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, for far too long many Manitobans' talents, expertise and skills have been wasted by both the federal government 's and the provincial government's failure to recognize the importance to bring on stream some sort of a body that would allow individuals in Manitoba who are qualified to be able to compete on an equal footing. I welcome, and the liberal Party welcomes, in fact, the working paper but do have some concerns. I know, for example, the minister, later on this evening, is going to be meeting with some individuals who were invited to present this particular working paper.

In talking to one of the groups, Mr. Speaker, I was told that in fact they were not contacted in terms of having some sort of input into the working paper. I hope and I trust that the government has gone out to the communities, as they have gone out to the communities now to present the working paper, but previously went out to the different ethnic communities to get the input prior to coming up with the paper. • (1 350) Mr. Speaker, the Liberal Party had introduced a resolution a couple of sessions ago in which we acknowledged the need to have some sort of a data bank.

I commend the minister on taking such a positive action. I think It is long overdue. In fact, we look to the province of Quebec where they have had it now for a number of years, and through that data bank, they have gone a long way in recognizing some of the very important credentials that the foreign individuals or immigrants bring to Canada. My colleague, our Health critic, had made reference to a particular program that would have seen physicians accepted and going out to rural Manitoba, something that in fact the provincial government in Alberta has accepted but the current Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) has refused to accept. There are areas in which we believe that the government can go and work a lot more, put more resources in terms of ensuring that we are not wasting the skills that we have here in Manitoba. We would encourage the government to do whatever is feasibly possible and look forward to in fact reading over the report and seeing if she has consulted the community at large so that all Manitobans would benefit from it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon. James Downey {Minister responsible for The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial statement, and I have copies for distribution.

Mr. Speaker, I wish to report to the Legislature today of a signing of an historic Northern Central Hydro Electrification Agreement. The agreement signed today is to supply unlimited hydro landline electricity to nin e communities in northeastern Manitoba, specifically, the seven First Nations of Oxford House, Gods

1253 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 16, 1992 River, Gods Lake, Red Sucker Lake, Garden Hill, St. Theresa Point and Wasagamack, as well as two northern commun ities of Gods Lake Narrows and Island Lake. The agreement was signed by Canada, represented by the Minister of Indian Affairs, Honourable Tom Siddon, Manitoba Hydro represented by Bob Brennan, President, and by myself on behalf of the Province of Manitoba . This agree men t is cos t-shared at a ratio of: Canada, 75 percent; Manitoba, 15 percent; and Manitoba Hydro, 10 percent. The agreement was also signed by Chief Jack Flett of the St.

Theresa Point First Nation as witness to the agreement on behalf of the seven First Nations and the two commu nity councils of northeast Manitoba. The project is scheduled for completion in 1997 with an estimated cost of $1 17 million. This project will provide considerable emp loyment to our pro vince over the next five years, with many of the jobs being done by northerners. In addition to training and em ployment, we expect much of the construction of the landline to be done by northern entrepre neurs and businesses resulting in positive spin-offs to the local communities.

The scope of the work includes an environmental impact study currently underway, the design and construction of a high- voltage transmission line with related transformer stations, subtransmission lines and distribution systems. Actual construction will include approx im ate ly 344 kilom etres of transmission line, 178 kilometres of distribution lines, four transformer stations and the upgrading of an internal distribution system, the removal of diesel generating plants, including fuel storage facilities and restoration of sites. * (1 355) I applaud the co-operation betw een the four parties, Mr. Speaker.

This project will provide considerable employment to our pro vince over the next five years. Many of the jobs, as I have said, will go to northerners. The skills developed and enhanced during the term of the project can in turn be applied in these commu nities to produce positive spin- offs for those northern communi ties. This is long overdue and will ma ke vast improve ments to the standard of living and quality of life in each of these com munities.

We are pleased to finalize negotiati ons with Canada and Manitoba Hydro to provide this much-needed service to northeast Manitoba and to obtai n the co-operation and support of the people of this region. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. EliJah Harper (Rupertsland}: Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to respond to the ministerial statement. I believe the project is long over due. What I would like to say is that it was not up to the gove rnments to make it happen . Everyt hing that we have achieved as abori ginal people in this country has been up to the aboriginal people themselves.

What the minister is announcing is initiatives that should have been done a long time ago. We should not even have to beg for these ser vices. These are hu man rig hts that should be gu arant ee d automatically to the aboriginal peop le. These resources come from the North , right beside our comm unities. They flow through the commu nities, yet the services and the quality of life that we get from these resources are bene fitted by southern people. It is a shame.

In 19 86, we announced for a hydro development together with the federal gov ernment, and the federal go vernment did not act, did not co-operate with u�ot just only hydro dev elopment. I give you an example of the treaty land settle ment, which I initiated here in this pro vince as a minister of this gove rnment. I passed an Order -in-Council, and wha t did the federal go vernment do? Nothing-they sat on it. What is happening today is because of our initiatives as aboriginal people in this country. We are talking about unity, working together as aboriginal people.

That is why it is happening today, not just because of kindness and generosity of the go vernment. It is the generosity and the kindness of the abor iginal people who shared the land and resources, why everybody else is living prosper ously, the standard of living that exists in this country. In the meantime, our co mmunities are suffering. It is about time-and credit should go to the people, our Indian people. It is about time they get someth ing.

I would like to say with those few words-! know, as I said earlier this morning, that the elders would not want me to speak with anger but rather to be apprecia tive and thankfu l. On behalf of the aboriginal people, we would like to work with you and work on those proj ects so that we have an involvement in the decision-making process as part of our self-go vernment and respect that. That is all

March 16, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1254 we ask for, nothing more and nothing less. Thank you. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. J ames): Mr. Speaker, it is truly one of the great ironies of development in the North and hydro development in particular that while various governments have built dams to ship power across the continent, the communities themselves that have paid the price for that power have not been electrified and have not had the benefit of the same services which they export.

That is an irony which is clearly not lost on the aboriginal community that populates most of the communities in the North. It is not an irony which is lost, I believe, on those fair -minded Manit obans who have seen development in the North, have seen the legacy of injustice, the legacy of hardship and of friction between nor thern communities and various governments and Manitoba Hydro, and through their obligation to the Native people, the federal government. * (1 400) Mr. Speaker, I simply want to Indicate that certainly we applaud this improvement which will come to these communities.

We all join comments, and as the minister says himseH, it is long overdue. Everyone acknowledges that. We look forward to the environmental review process which, this as well as all other projects, should and will go through. I know that the communities themselves rushed to have the services. They obviously will support, and I know they have in the past, a full environmental review. Mr. Speaker, with respect to the job creation in the North, that is a promise which was made with Limestone. That is a promise which is being made with Conawapa. We see it again here in print.

We look forward to the training initiatives, to the announcement of the training initiatives which will train the people in northern Manitoba to take the highly skilled jobs to come out of this type of project, this type of investment with skills for the future, because that was not the case with respect to Limestone. We fear that is not the intention of this government with respect to Conawapa, and we want to have the government of the day put some teeth into that commitment on behalf of northern Manitobans.

Finally, it is, I think, importantto recognize that this government has already been committed for a year and a half to a $5.8-billion project, and roughly the same amount of money, about $1 17 million, has already been spent in preparing for Conawapa. Just now, we are getting around to spending that money to electrify and provide services to these communities. It is far too late, but we look forward to the end result, in fact, the coming to fruition of the commitment to create jobs and economic benefit to northern Manitobans. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Department of Government Services RCMP Investigation • Leasing Branch Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, one of the most important issues dealing with the public is the public trust dealing with the Government Services Department and the leasing offices of Government Services. Mr. Speaker, we were informed last week that members of the RCMP visited 17 00 Portage Avenue to conduct investigations at that particular location. My question, therefore, is to the Premier. Can the Premier inform Manitobans of what the RCMP is investigating at those offices?

What is the nature and scope of their investigation at 1700 Portage Avenue in the Government Services leasing department? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services): Mr. Speaker, I am glad to get on the record. Rrst of all, I will give a brief

summary. We had an indication that there might be some irregularities in the administration of the consulting contract connected with the government lease from Manitoba Housing on Broadway. The irregularities appear to have occurred within the department and have no relation to the landlord. Once this came to our attention, we began looking into the matter and ordered an internal audit investigation. After reviewing the results of the audit, the advice of the legal counsel, we turned the information over to the RCMP. Now, with the RCMP involved, the matter is under criminal investigation.

I cannot provide further details to the member; however, I can confirm that the employee involved with this contract has been reassigned to another area of the department until this matter has cleared up. Also, the internal audit report has been turned over to the Civil Service Commission for their review

1255 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 16, 1992 and their recommended action. I can assure you that we acted imme diately upon hearing and learning of this alleged probl em, and my department will conti nue to pursue this matter rigorou sly until it is resolved, Mr. Speake r. Internal Audit - Leasing Branch Mr. Gary Doer (Leader ofthe Opposition): As the minister has indicated, an internal audit has led to the RCMP being called in by the go vernment.

Given the fact that the leasing department of gove rnment has such great contact with the public, and because of the issue of leasing, te ndering and the whole issue of its interaction with the public of Manitoba, I would ask the minister whether he will be releasing the internal audit that led to the RCMP investigation in that this is a very important public office. It is very important that the public knows the nature and scope of the investigation so that we may address ourselves accor dingly. Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services): For the sake of the individual involved and the department-! have already expressed that there is criminal investiga tion, RCMP, and also the Civil Service Commission is looking at it-it would be unwise atthis time to release that particular audit. There will be many times during the process and after the com pletion of the RCMP. They have asked us to co-operate with them fully. We have done that and will continue to do that. RCMP Investigation - Leasing Branch Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, the RCMP, as well as interviewing a number of people, took blueprints from a number of different buildings in Gove rnment Services and leasing department. Is the minister able to advise the public, through this Cham ber, of what buildings are under investigati on? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister of Government Services): We are investigating one particular individual. That is what the RCMP are doing. The individual is involved in seve ral buildings, howe ver, we are mainly looking at one individual. That is what the RCMP investigations are carrying out at this particular time.

Social Assistance Employment Creation Strategy Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, today the Social Planning Council issued a report with rec ommen dations on child poverty in Manitoba. I think all of us as legislators should be, and are, concerned about the gro wing problem of child poverty in Winnipeg and Manitoba. Twenty-two percent of Manitoba children live below the poverty line, which is the highest rate out of 10 pro vinces in Canada. Twenty-e ight percent, or more than one in fo ur, in Winnipeg, live in poverty.

We know that this report and their research says that this results in higher health costs for children, and one of the future problems is decreased employment productivity of these children as adults. However, while this gove rnment has spent $90 million this year on social assistance, this money is still maintaining children in po verty, not getting them out of it. Can the Minister of Family Services tell us what his go vernment is doing to increase job creation programs to help people get off social assistance instead of cutting back on income supplement program s as they have done? Hon.

Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I would advise the member that we have not cut back on social allowance payments, but we annou nced an increase in that in No vember, an increase which I think is nearly twice the rate of inflation and compares quite favourably with at least one other pro vince that has made a rate adjustment. As far as Job creation progr ams, we did announce in the budget, a Partners withY outh Progr am, which we will be giving further clarification to in the near future . I did meet with the Social Planning Council within the last few weeks to look at the report.

They have now formally made it public, and the report is before the department for comment. I would also men tion the federal go vernment, in a recent announcement, has announced that they will be coming forward with a program for children which looks very similar to our CRISP progr am. It is a program that we have encouraged the federal gove rnment to work on and bring forward, and we are looking forward to the details of that plan.

March 16, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1256 CRISP Benefits Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Family Services now join with the Social Planning Council and many other groups in our society in striving to elimin ate child poverty and reconsider what is effectively a cutback in the CRISP benefits which they have cut back every year in office since 1988? Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, of cou rse , we will have an opportu nity to look at the budget line by line and discuss the detai ls of that, but I have just indicated to the member that the federal gove rnment has announced a new program for child poverty and for low-income families, and the deta ils, which have not been completely enuncia ted at this time, appear to be that they are bringing forward a program quite similar to CRISP. As well, they are going to have a program which deals with nutrition for low-i ncome families, and again, they are working on the details of that.

We have had an opportunity to meet with federal officials within the last few weeks, and I expect there will be more information forthc oming in the next few months. Mr. Martindale: We welcome any federal initiatives which provide impro vements, but what we see from the provincial gove rnmen t instead is cutbacks in their progr ams. Benefit Cap Mr.

Doug Martindale (Burrows): I would like to ask the Minister of Family Services why his gov ernment is planning on putting a cap on social assistance levels and punishing people on social assistance, giving them less income instead of more, especially people on social assistance in the city of Winnipeg. *( 1410 ) Hon. Har old Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I just indicated that rather than put a cap on social assistance funding, we gave a substantial increase to social assistance recipients with a 3.6 percent increase in the general assistance funding.

Again, I would point out, it compares quite favourably to the 2 percent that Ontario gave to their social service recipients. As well, in these difficult eco nomic times, we created a new progr am, a program for the disabled, which is going to have a cost to go vernment of some $8 million. We also are bringing forward legislation that I believe the member is going to suppo rt whereby we make the availability of social assistance com mon throughout the prov ince. No matter where you live in Manitoba, you are going to be able to access social assistance by the same rules and at the same level.

Seven Oaks Youth Centre Closure Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second OpposHion): Mr. Speaker, on Friday my critic released parts of the Suche report, which the minister has had for a number of weeks, on the Seven Oaks Ce ntre . He released that report because consistently every year, with a variety of ministers, my party has raised concerns about the Seven Oaks Centre .

I raised them with the then Minister of Social Services Muriel Smith in 19 87, and at that point said Seven Oaks is a closed custody setting, and it is an entirely inappropriate setting for a child who has been molested sexually or physically. Nothing was done. We now have had several reports, most recenUy the Suche report, with more incidents this weekend being reported about the Seven Oaks Centre. Will the minister tell us today what is going to be done about the Seven Oaks Centre? Is he going to close It as It should have been some years ago? Is he going to put those children finally in appropriate placements?

Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, yes, we did talk about this last Friday when your critic for Finance , and whatever else, brought this issue up. The Suche report was a report comm issioned by this gove rnment, and I have had it now for three weeks. It is before the government for study. I belie ve the member would like us to deal with that report in a responsible way. What the member is doing is picking certain recomm endations in there and saying: Would you do this now and consider this later?

We are going to take a little bit more time to study this report in detail and come forward with a formal response to that report. The member raises issues about the Seven Oaks Centre , and of course , her critic was the director of that centre during the early part of the '80s. There were a number of issues that we could get into about the management and the manner in which the

1257 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 16, 1992 centre was run at that time, but I think we will not do that, because I do not think these things should be personalized . I can te ll you that changes have taken place. At the time he was director, there were 65 to 70 children there. We have downsized it considerably, and today there are only 24 children there. This is a centre that is there for use by the agencies when they take children into care. It is used by the police, and I would like to go into some more detail on this, and perhaps I can with a subsequent answer. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, since 19 74 such facilities as Seven Oaks in the United States have been declared illegal to opera te. Child Advocate Reporting Process Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): One of the recom mendations in the Suche report is the need for a children's advocate reporti ng to the Legisl ative Assembly. It was rec ommen ded in 1983 by Judge Edward Kimel man. It was recommended again in the AJI. We are now told by this minister that, no, it is going to report to him, and I would like to know from the minister why. Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (Mnlster of Family Services): Mr.

Speak er, I will respond on the Child Advocate in a moment. There is also an Ombudsman's report to do with Seven Oaks, wher e he has identified certain practices in the medical unit, certain reporting procedures and other recommendations that he acknowledges in his report which we are moving on. I do not want the member or her colleague to fe el we have not done anything. There has been considerable work done as far as Seven Oaks is concerned.

On the Child Advocate, yes, this is one of the reforms which we announced last June, and I would remind her again that this government has announc ed a number of reforms in child weHare . We are going to bring forward legislation to create a Child Advocate . We have looked at the legislation that exists in two other jurisdictions in Canada, namely, Ontario and Alberta where a Child Advocate exists. In both cases, the Child Advocate reports to the minister.

We have asked in those jurisdictions whether the system is wor king, whether the advocate is there to look after the interests of children and whether it is working appropriately and the answer is yes. We will get a chance to look at this legislation in the near future, but we have looked particularly at the Alberta mod el. Again, I would respond in saying, in both cases, they do report to the minister and that the syste m does work. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, Ms.

Suche in her report says, and I will quote: Many children indicated that if their rights were violated by a resid ential care facility, they would be re luctant to raise concerns with the same worker who arranged the placement. That is exactly why the children who need the protection the most are telling this minister that they do not want to deal with ministerial channels. They want to have an advocate to protect them. Can the minister please give us one reason why he is re jecting the Suche report and is asking for the Child Advocate to report to him when it should report to the Ombudsman? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr.

Speaker, I would say clearly we are not re jecting the Suche report. We have the Suche report before a working group of gov ernment. The member is zeroi ng in on one component of that report. We will be giving a formal response to that report in the coming weeks. A major recommendation is the creation of a Child Advocate . We are procee ding with that. As the member has point ed out, previous gov ernments were advised to do that. Previous governments were asked to cre ate a Child Advocate . It is this gov ernmen t that is acting on it. It is this go vernment that is bringing these reforms in.

I have indicated that we have looked at that process in other provi nces, and are modeling some of our legislation after what works in those jurisdictions. The member is rea ding selectiv ely when she says that the child who has been abused or misused by a social worker or somebody in the system-that is not who the Child Advocate is going to be. The Child Advocate is somebody who is detached from that. The Child Advocate is somebody who is going to look after the interests of that child. I would urge her to read that report Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

March 16, 1992 LEGISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1258 Seniors Programs Funding Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Speaker, more likely than not, the memb ers of this House are familiar with the saying that to those who have more, more will be given, and to those who have less, even the little they got will be taken away from them. Out of a total provi ncial opera ting budget of $5.25 billion, one-tenth of 1 perce nt-not 1 percent, one-tenth of 1 perce nt-is allocated to the Seniors Directorate . This is the least of all gov ernmental allocations.

Despite that, this pro vincial budget has cut almos t 13 percent out of the least of the lea st of all the allocations. Can the honourable Minister responsible for Seniors explain to this House and to the seniors of this province why he allowed his colleague to do this cut to the distress of the senior citize ns? Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker, first of all, I sort of agree with the saying by the honourable memb er.

However, in this particular case, the minister approached myself in consult ation , and in this particular sense, the grou p that he is refe rring to had a surplus in 19 89 of $28,000. At that time, they got a grant from the Province of Manitoba. Now, they have a surplus of $248,000, and now we have given them $75,000 a year plus the $30,000 that comes out of the Seniors Directorate . 55 Plus Program Funding Restoration Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Speaker, this is notthe firsttime thatthere has been this subtle assault on the base funding of senior citize ns. Mr.

Speaker, my supplem entary question to the honourable Minister responsi ble for Seniors is, has the honourable minister taken any step to mitigate this cut by re storing the 55 Plus to its original status as an indexed social program ? • (1 420) Hon. Gerald Ducharme (Minister responsible for Seniors): Mr. Speaker , there is no indication of 55 Plus being cut at this time in this budget. Mr. Speaker, he wants to get into funding. Conti nuing Care program s increased $7 million over '92-93. Is that hurting the seniors? Also, Mr. Speaker, Pharmacare , mentioned by the member from Flin Flon (Mr.

Storie) across the ro om, personal care homes, increased in the budget this year by $75 million in the Health budget. Seniors Programs Government Commitment Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Given all these cuts which, to my mind, is financial abuse of senior citize ns' welfare , how does the minister reconcile this with his so-called gove rnment's commitmen t to the welfare of seniors in this pro vince? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister responsible for Seniors): I just explained, in the Pharmacare budget which contains a vast amount of money for personal care and Pharmacare, in that particular part of the Health budget, he will see that the increase is $75 million this year. I do not call that abuse-$75 million, Mr. Speaker. If he wants to go back to the original concept that we talked about in regard to surpluses, MSOS is ge tti ng an inc rease in fun ding from our department-the secretariat, up to $30,000. That will not be lowered. Handl· Transit Cost-sharing Agree ment Ms.

Jean Friesen (Wolseley): My question is for the Minister of Urban Affairs. The demand for Handi-Transit in Winnipeg conti nues to rise, due in part to the changing demographics of our society and also because of changing social attitudes to the kind of lives that are possible for people with disabilities. In the last four years , there has been a 19 0 per cent in crease in the dem and for Handi-Transit, and the pred ictions are that this will rise between 10 percent and 15 percent per year.

The city is now prepared to expand access to legally blind peopl e, but the Prov ince of Manitoba has refused to share any additional costs. My question for the minister is: Could the minister indicate whether he disagrees with the city's position on expanding access to legally blind people or whether it is simply part of the larger Tory strategy to send the bills to the middle-income homeowners of Winnipeg? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable memb er's first part of the ques tion is out of orde r; the honourable minister, with the second part of the question. Hon.

Jim Ernst (Minister of Urban Affairs): Mr. Speaker, the qu estion of Handi- Transit, the

1259 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 16, 1992 question of all transit in the city of Winnipeg, is within the purview of the Winnipeg City Council. We will provide, during '92-93, approximately $146 million of support out of the provincial government to the City of Winnipeg from a variety of different sources. It is the responsibility of City Council; if they wish to expand their Handi-Transit service, that is entirely up to them. We provide a certain amount of money, fixed grants and some cost-shared grants over a wide variety of departments.

If they wish to expand their services in any area that they have jurisdiction, they are more than welcome to do so. Ms. Friesen: The supplemental question is: Has the minister sought advice on the implications of his refusal to continue to cost-share this program for challenges under the Canadian Charter of Rights and the Manitoba Human Rights Commission? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, we provide 50 percent cost -sharing on the deficit of the transit system in the City of Winnipeg, subject to an upper limit. We have provided that for any number of years.

If the City of Winnipeg wishes to expand its Handi-Transit service, wishes to Increase its deficit in that area, tha t is entirely up to th em. For audit ed expenditures, we provide 50 cents on the dollar. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, will the minister then at least make a commitmen t to the House to examine the long-term projections for Handi-Translt use in Winnipeg and develop, in con junc tion with the city, at least some long-range planning for the disabled people? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, the Department of Urban Affairs and the provincial government does not run transit in the city of Winnipeg.

The City of Winnipeg Council runs the transit system. If they make a choice, as is their responsibility to operate a transit system in the city of Winnipeg for whatever segment of society is in need, that is their choice, but it is also their responsibility. Commu nity-Base d Health Care System Government Polley Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples}: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Premier. This government has recently announced its intention to move many health care services out of the hospital and into the commu nity, and we support that commu nity-based approach.

In fact, we have been calling since 1988, and the majority of Manitobans do support that approach . Can the Premier tell this House how their policy on commu nity-based health care is going to be implemented when they have only increased the health promotion area, which is a major component of the com mu nity-based care, only a modest amount that is only going to catch up with the last year's cut? Can the Premier tell us in simple language how the people are going to have some confidence in the commu nity-based care ? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier}: Mr.

Speaker, the member wants to ask detailed questions on the budget of me at this time, in the absence of the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchar d); I suggest to him that he would be well to wait for the return of the Minister of Health so that he can go into detail.

What I can tell him is that this government has increased funding in health care this year over last year by more than $1 00 million, which amounts to 5. 7 percent, has put su bstantial incr eased resources in the area of home care, which is commu nity-based health care , which is our lowest cost alternative for intervention, for support of people, seniors in partic ular, to keep them living in their homes. pnte�ection) Mr. Speaker, I am sorry, if the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Doer) wants to ask more questions, I am sure that he is entitled to do so under our rules, and he could get up and ask those questions rather than inte�ect. Having said that, we are putting substantially more money into health care and substantially more money Into home care to ensure that there is commun ity-based care . I would invite him to ask his detailed questions of the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) at a future time. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, we are not questioning the 5.6 percent. We are simply asking the focus of the policy direction. Public Health Organizations Funding Mr.

Guizar Cheema (The Maples}: Can the Premier tell this House how his government is going to create an effective partnership with health care organizations when they have cut the external agencies funding by 16 percent, 23 percent in the area of health child development, and 16 percent in the area of health promotion ?

March 16, 1992 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1260 Mr. Speaker, we want a simple answer in terms of policy direction, not 5.6 percent funding, what the Premier is stating. Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I find it interesting that the tack that is being taken by the liberal Party in this House is not to indicate what their priorities are in terms of the overall approach to government, because the fact of the matter is, if anybody in their own house, in their own household, on their farm, in their small business, in their professional prac tice, in government were to take the position like the liberal Party which uses the Burger King slogan, "You can have everything you want," you cannot.

What you have to do is choose priority- • (1 430) An Honourable Member: We remember the old Wendy's slogan, "Where's the beef?" Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, all of the beefs around here are in the opposition benches. The people who practise negativism daily in this House-take now, when health care gets 5.7 percent increase , three times the rate of inflation, substantially more than is being given in liberal and New Democratic provinces in this cou ntry, then they go to try to pick away and say, oh, but this one got a little less, and this one got a little less than this one.

The fact is, if you are going to keep the hospitals open, if you are going to build personal care beds, if you are going to improve home care in this province, you are going to have to choose priorities. You cannot fund everything. Every person who walks Into the Liberal ca ucus is told, sure, we would give you more money. Then we would have to raise taxes. That is what they do not tell them; we would have to raise taxes. The Liberal Party is the party of higher taxes along with the New Democrats . We will not raise taxes in this province because people are taxed up to here-n o more. Mr.Cheema: Mr.

Speaker, we were simply asking the focus of the policy direction, and the Premier should know that his Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) is the only minister in this cou ntry who has the co-operation from the opposition- Mr. Speaker: Question, please. Community-Based Health Care System Government Priorities Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): It is a very serious thing, and probably this Premier should listen. I have a question, a question about the honesty that- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, over the course of the last several days, members of the opposition parties, both parties, have been trying to leave a certain intention with respect to motives. I would point out to you specifically Beauchesne 409(7) It says, and I quote: "A question must adhere to the proprieties of the House, in terms of inferences, imputing motives or casting aspersions upon persons within the House or out of it." Mr. Speaker, too many of the questions over the last several days emanating from the benches opposite have called into question motives and have cast aspersions on members of the government.

I think the members opposite should be called to attention when they phrase questions in that fashion. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Second Opposition House Leader): On the same point of order, I am somewhat surprised at the government House leader when he talks in terms of consistency. H there is anyone who is casting motives, one would suggest that it could possibly be the Premier (Mr. Filmon). His own- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I had recognized the honourable member on the same point of order. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, the member for The Maples was just calling for some honesty.

He was not saying that the Premier was being dishonest. There was nothing intentional. I would refer to the government House leader when-in fact, the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard ) made reference to the critic saying, be a little bit honest- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Inkster has made his point. The honourable opposition House leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Yes, on the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, I would point out that our list of unparliamentary

1261 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 16, 1992 language in Beauchesne lists references of both honest and dishonest as both being parliamentary and unparliamentary. A great deal depends on the context. I think we have to recognize that perhaps in this House we have a different set of rules than members of the public. I would note that the chief of medical staff at Brandon General hospital recently called the government-said it was not being honest with the people, Mr. Speaker. In the House, we have a different standard, and it may be that a warning should be issued.

I am not sure in this case that the member for The Maples (Mr. Cheema) was intending to be unparliamentary, but indeed it could be read both ways. Mr. Speaker: In regard to the point of order raised by the honourable government House leader in regard to the honourable member for The Maples, the honourable government House leader did not have a point of order. The honourable member for The Maples, kindly put your question now, please. *** Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Speaker, will the Premier explain the conflict between the govemm enfs stated goal of commu nity-based health care and the shift in this budget toward tighter control by the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) and officials brought down by the cut to external agencies, and that includes the agency's cut for seniors? From this $10, 000, they will have to pay rent and heat. It is a very serious matter. At least the Premier could have the courage to tell the truth. Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier): I would just suggest to the member for The Maples that this government is increasing expenditures in health care by more than $1 00 million, a 5.7 percent increase. In that increase, there is substantially more money for many critical areas of health care . H the member for The Maples suggests that every time anybody asks for more money of the Liberal Party or the New Democratic Party, they are going to be told that they could have more, then he had better also tell those people that he would have to raise their taxes in order to do so.

The Liberal Party by its line of questioning in the House is demonstrating that it is the party of higher taxes in this provi nce. The public knows and understands that you cannot have it both ways. You cannot demand more spending without more taxes and, Mr. Speaker, that is exactly what the Liberals do, that is exactly what the New Democrats do, and the public is tired of it. They do not want to be told that they are going to have more things given to them and then have it all taken by way of higher taxes as the New Democrats did throughout the '80s in this province.

Child Guidance Clinic Service Repl acement Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): One of the concerns raised by members of this side of the House on many occasions is that as the government has starved local school divisions, they force local school divisions to cut teac hers, eliminate programs and fragment the delivery of programs. Now that the new funding formula has taken away some of the admin istrative costs from Winnipeg School Division No. 1 , it has forced subur ban school divisions to pay for the child care clinic.

Can the minister indicat e what plans, if any, the government has to assist these divisions in meeting these costs in order to prevent fragmentation of this valued service to children of Manitoba? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): I certainly agree that the service provided by the clinicians of the Child Guidance Clinic is an important one. However, any claims that this province has lowered its support for clinician services are totally false. Mr. Chomlak: That is why I did not make that claim, Mr. Speaker.

Will the minister outline what her plans are to deal with the fragmentation of services that may result as a result of the change of this funding formula and which may force divisions to go it alone away from the Child Guidance Clinic? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, any decisions are local decisions made by individual school boards. I would like to remind my honourable friend of the support that this government has had for clinician services in the next school year. In the first place , we have reduced the ratio required per eligible clinician, and secondly, we have increased the clinician grant. Mr.

Chomlak: My final supplementary to the same minister: Will the minister reconvene her Finance Comm ittee in order to look at these problems like the Gimli intervention cent re, the rural program for

March 16 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1262 vocational services and this clinic, in order to deal with these matters in a holistic sense and not a one-by-one crisis sense, that every time one of these progra ms has to be cut, the minister has to deal with it? Will she reconvene her Finance Comm ittee to deal with it? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, I want to correct what I believe the honourable memb er has put on the record. Ther e has not been a cut by this govern ment for clinician services. In fact, there has been an increase . What has happened , Mr.

Speaker, is there is simply being no longer a differentiation between the administrative grant and the salary grant. The grant is now put together and increased . • (1 440) Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corp. Interest Rates Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speaker, a week ago the Minister of Agriculture talked in this House about how great things were getting for farmers. He predicted a rosy future, that there may even be a GATT deal. There may be higher prices. There may be a good crop even. Meanwhile, the farm economy is still in shambles all around him.

Last week, the budget saw cuts in agriculture at MACC; at the Mediation Board, some 20 percent; the agriculture research grant to the University of Manitoba, some 1 0 percent; and services for hard-pressed farmers throughout the pro vince. I would ask this minister whether he can indicate to this House why he did not ensure that farmers, at least with loans at MACC, cou ld take full advantage ofthe lower interest rates which the minister said are going to help the farm economy, by allowing a recalculation or write-down of existing loans based on the existing lending rate at the present time.

An Honourable Member: Who is going to pay for it? Mr. Plohman: You would pay for it for the- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The question has been put. Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speak er, the member put quite a few commen ts on the record in his

preamble. I would hope that he was not implying that because things look a little brighter in the farm commu nity, this is bad. I hope that he was not implying that. Mr. Speaker , he did indicate that there were some reductions in different segments of the agriculture budget. I want to re min d the memb er, the agricu ltur e bud get has gone up over $20 million-[interjection] Oh, it is money going directly to farmers, and suddenly the member is not in support of that.

I would like to tell that member that over the course of the last six or seven years, the amount of money in the pro vincial agriculture budget that goes directly to farmers was about 36 percent in the days that he was in government. Today, it is 75 percent, 75 percent of the agriculture budget, and it has gone in tota l. That budget has gone from $70 million to $1 35 million. That is a substantive increase , almost a doubling in the budget and over a doubling in the amount of money that is going directly to farmers, so we have substantive ly helped farmers at a time when they need it, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Plohman: Mr. Speaker, this minister does not care about the farmers who are in trouble, those- Mr. Speaker: Question , please. GRIP Program Premium Levels Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Will this minister explain to this House why he cannot get his act toget her, why he is creating more confusion by not yet announcing the coverage levels and the premium levels for GRIP, which must be announced by the 15th and the contract be signed by March 15 ? Why is he not getting his act together and getting that announcemen t out for farmers? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr.

Speak er, with regard to the GRIP program , there are still a numb er of decisions in this ongoing deve lopment. We would have liked to have had that information out. I wanted to have that information out six weeks ago. I would like to remind that member, certain other provinces in this country decided to do some drastic changes which prevented us from getting those announcements out. Mr. Speak er, this province has led the charge to keep the IMAP price up at a respecta ble leve l. Other provinces that are represented by his type of gove rnment want to bring the coverage down to the farmers.

This province is pushing to have the best

1263 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 16, 1992 level of support for the farmers of Manitoba, and those announcem ents will be made very soon. Mr. Plohman: Can the Minister of Agriculture promise Manitoba farmers, as Saskatchewan has done and just annou nced this past week, that premium levels under GRIP will be reduced for this year over last year, that premium levels under GRIP will be reduced for this year over last year , and offset penalties that are currently in place in his program will be remo ved as they have been in Saskatchewan ? Mr. Findlay: Mr.

Speaker, I am rather shocked at that memb er 's qu estion , trying to indicate Saskatchewan did something positive for its producers. The total cost of the GRIP program to the Saskatchewan go vernment this next year is going to go down by $22 million. It is going to increase the premiums to its farmers by $1 4 million. He is offloading the cost of the premiums onto the farmers of Saskatchewan. There are two principles that the farmers of Mani toba defini tely wanted in any re venue insurance program. One was individuality, the other was pred ictability.

The prov ince of Saskatchewan has taken away both of those principles, taken them away from the farmers so there is no predictability, no individuality. They have offloaded the cost of the premiums of that program from the government onto the producers of Saskatchewan. Port of Churchill Government Strategy Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, last week a letter was sent to the Minister of Highways and Transpor tation from his Saskatchewan counterpart.

This letter confirmed the Province of Saskatchewan's con tinuing interest in sitting down to work out strategies that will ensure the Port of Chur chill's future. Also, the federal Minister of Transpor t has recently indicated the federal governmen t's interest in working for a solution to resolve this long-st anding impasse for our port.

Now that the Saskatchewan and fed eral governmen ts are interested in working out a partnership arrangement, will the Minister of Hig hways and Transp ortation initiate formal meetings that will call tog ether officials from the Canadian Wheat Board, CN Rail, the Port of Churchill, the federal gov ernment, as well as the pro vinces of Saskatchewan and Manitoba to iron out details of an agreement? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr.

Speaker, I am glad that the member also has an inside track with the minister from Saskatchewan, because I have a copy of that letter that was sent to Corbeil, so obviously the lines of commu nication are quite open. Mr. Speaker, I have to take some of the questions from the memb er for Transcona with some skepticism , because when I heard him in the House here the other day indicating that the Province of Manitoba should take and help CN and the federal gov ernment maintain the line to Churchill, I nearly flipped out of my chair.

I cannot believe that he would be making recomme ndations that we should take and accept offloadi ng from CN and the federal government in terms of maintaining the line to Churchill. My position has always been very strong, that the federal go vernment, CN ha ve their own responsibilities. They should look afte r those responsi bilities. I will continue to put that position forward when I deal with them. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) , and the proposed motion of the honour able Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) and amendment thereto, and the proposed motion of the Leader of the Second Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) in further amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable member for Sturgeon Creek. Mr. Gerry McAlpine (Sturgeon Creek): Mr. Speak er, it gives me great pleasure to rise today to respond to the 19 92-93 budget presented by the Minister of Finance. Mr.

Speaker, the recession that has rocked the world, Canada and Manitoba continues to plague the people of our province as they struggle to make ends meet in these trying times. Howeve r, the light can now be seen at the end of the tunnel as the economy of Manitoba and most of our trading partners have turned the corner and begun their climb to economic renewal .

March 16, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1264 At this point, I would like to thank and congratulate the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) on his diligent, masterful and caring ethics in preparing this government's fifth budget for Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, as a small businessman, I can attest to the hardships that the people and businesses of Manitoba are going through in the past few years.

The light at the end of the tunnel will continue to brighten and grow as our government continues its sound financial management, keeping spending under control, and our will to attract and encourage business to our province remains strong. These hardships that we have experienced, through no fault of our own, in many instances can be looked upon as positive in making us better people and better business people. These experiences can now be used for gain in the days and months ahead as our province pulls out of the recession. Mr.

Speaker, the budget presented by our government is designed with the interests of the people of Manitoba in mind. It is a budget that will help speed the recovery of Manitoba's economy by stimulating investment and leaving money in the pockets of the consumers of our province. This recovery has not been easy. Faced with static revenues, decreasing federal transfer payments, the need to maintain social programs at a level that meets the needs of a slowly growing economy, our government has been forced to make difficult decisions in the past years by prioritizing and controlling our spending. * (1450) (Mrs.

Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) However, these have been decisions that have benefitted our province and left us in a position to emerge from the recession with an economy that is in tune with the competitive world economy. In fact, Madam Deputy Sp eaker, projections by the Conference Board of Canada show Manitoba to be leading the country in terms of its growth rate in 1992, well above the national average. Our credit rating as a province is second only to one other province in Canada which, I might add, is another Conservative-run government.

Madam Deputy Speaker, Manitoba has many natural advantages that will benefit and aid our economic recovery and growth. Th ese advantages, whether in the areas of natural resources, the health care industry or any other field will provide for a strong base from which to create and take advantage of economic opportunities to create jobs for Manitobans. The role of government in the economy is to create a positive environment for investment within, in order for the provincial economy to be able to grow.

Prioritized government spending has meant that in our first budget, we were able to reduce taxes and set up the Fiscal Stabilization Fund to aid our province through the tough years. Madam Deputy Speaker, since this first budget, we have continued the fight against high taxes, and we are very proud that in the next four years, we have been able to maintain a freeze on personal income taxes, corporate income taxes and the provincial sales tax.

It is often said that once a government is elected, they forget about the people whom they represent and were elected by, that they do not listen to the people whom they govern. Madam Deputy Speaker, this government cannot be accused of not listening to the people of Manitoba. The people of our province have said over and over again, to all levels of government, no more taxes. This government has listened to the people whom we govern.

There is not a single province in the country, no matter what the political stripe of its government, that can state they have matched or even come close to this recorG-five consecutive budgets with no increase in personal income taxes. This is not an accomplishment that should be taken lightly. What this has meant, Madam Deputy Speaker, is that instead of paying increasing amounts to the government in taxes, the money has stayed in the pockets of the consumers of the province to be invested or spent as they want it.

Madam Deputy Speaker, becaus e of the commitment of our government to creating a positive climate for investment, the province of Manitoba has increased its reputation as being one of the best locations in Canada to invest. This reputation has also become known worldwide as companies from other countries, such as Medox from Britain, look at Manitoba as a place that not only is competitive in terms of its tax structure, but also is capable of provid ing a skilled and well-educated work force, a high quality of life and a central time zone.

1265 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 16, 1992 Madam Deputy Speaker, another area where our government has listened to the people of the province is in the area of funding the vital human services. The dep artments of Health, Family Services and Education and Training are where the people of Manitoba want their tax dollars to go. We have made these departments the spending priorities of our province. A total of $3.5 billion is to be spent this year on these three departments, including increases that are three or fou r times the level of inflation.

In the Departmen t of Health, an additional $1 01 million was injected . This represents an increase of 5.7 percent, three times the level of inflation, a level that is much greater than the 1 percent the NDP in Ontario have foreca st. This funding increase will allow the Manitoba health care system to maintain service del ivery desp ite the limited financial resources of the gove rnment. As well as ensurin g that services are delivered in a cost-effective manner, the ref orms taking place in the system are designed to better reflect patient needs and preferen ces.

By moving services to a more co mmu nity-based system, costs will be contained and the provision of services maintained . Madam Deputy S peak er, in the area of health care, I have particular concerns when It comes to the care of the elderly. I am proud to say that this budget addresses my concerns through increases to both the home care and personal care home budgets, as well as to geront ology. Almost 37 percent of my constituency is of the age of 55 or older.

This is representative of the aging of the population In gen eral, as more people live longer and the average family remains small compared to two generations ago. Madam Deputy Speaker, if the costs of our health care system are to be contr olled, then one area that must be examined carefu lly for more efficient means of service delivery is the area of the care of our aging population.

This segment of the population does not represent a group of people who have fulfilled their duties in life, but rather is a strong vibrant group that still has contributions to make in terms of teac hing life experiences or gainful emplo yment. Madam Deputy Speaker, another area of interest to me personally is that of disease preve ntion, and health promotion and prote ction. The prevention of disease and promoti on of health will have the effect of reducing the level of dependency of the elderly as they age, resulting in lower health care costs and a healthie r population.

This can be achieved through proper nutrition using pure whole foods as a form of therapy. Aging in society today is taken as a matter of course and acceptance without question. However, through whole food nutrition, regene ration of our body systems is not only possible but most prob able. With the proper management, with nourishment of our body syste ms where regeneration is achieved, disease is no longer an issue or is at least considerably reduced. The body heals and overcomes disease , not an ything else, but it needs the help of whole, unpolluted foods to achieve this.

It is un for tun ate that very few medical practitioners use nutrition as a form of therapy. Why is that, we ask? That is because they do not unde rstand nutrition. It is not what they are taught in medical colleges today. As a matter of fact, I am told they are taught very little about nutrition, but they are attempting to get an increase of nutritional studies to 15 hours in their seven or more years that it takes to graduate from medical school . That to me is a disgrace if we are going to overco me Illness and disease in our society.

Madam Deputy Speake r, medical doctors can only prescribe drugs in their prac tice, not foods, foods that support witho ut side effects, unlike prescribed drugs. H we are working with nourished and Jess tox ified bodies, our bodies can put more into over coming disease and make regener ation possible. That is what is important in health care , and that is what is importan t in reducing health care costs. Let us create health in our society instead of treating disease. I was plea sed to see that our government increased its commi tment to this

section of the heal th care field , especial ly in the area of pre vention, as I feel that this is an important area If Manitoba is to decrease its overall cost in the health care field in the future, especially in terms of the elderly. After all, a healthy person does not need the services of a doctor as often or the expensive trea tments. Madam Deputy Speaker , as I mentioned earlier, the care of our aging population will be an important portion of contr olling future costs. The admittance of the elderly to personal care homes and hospitals must be carefu lly examin ed to ensure that people who are admitted are actually in need of the

March 16 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1266 additional level of care. The admittance of the elderly to personal care homes or other institutions could be examined through the use of a risk indicator or profile in order to estimate future needs in the system and provide care to those who need it.

Madam Dep uty Spea ker, to supp ort and encourage the deve lopment of cost-effective and efficient services, our gove rnment has est ablished the Heal th Services Imp rove men t Fund and increased the funding to the Health Services Deve lopment Fund to provide incentives to health care institutions that dem onstrate improved quality and efficient services. While we are talking about services, I would like to congratulate the minister and the Working Group on Breast Cancer Screening on their findings and recomme ndations with respect to breast cancer scr eening.

These recom men da tions and expressed concerns with this very serious issue affecting so many Manitoba women is music to my ears. • (1 500) It is no surprise to me that from the working group's findings not only does breast cancer scre ening not reflect positive practices, there is the sugges tion that additional exposure to X-rays increase the incidence of breast cancer. When we consider our health care funding, we must look at the different therapies which are carried out without question and insist on the accountability by the med ical practitioners for the well-being of all Manitobans.

Next to the af flicted, the people-like the people of Manitoba-have the biggest stake in this matte r, after drug companies, various charities, as well as govern ments. However, governments are only using tax dollars to fund their part; therefore , the people are picking up the entire cost. To take steps of this nature as a means of impro ving the quality of health care in Manitoba, it will be a positive direction in contr olling our health care future budgets. I heard that a few years ago that the average cost per cancer patient ranges from $50,000 to $75,000 and rising in the U.S.

What it is today in Canada or Manitoba, I do not know, and I wonder how many people do not want us to know either. We cannot continue on this path of funding expensive, ineffective health care . We must look for other effective ways to rely on for a great part on conscientious and caring people in that field. Those people have a big responsibility.

They must help us look for oth er effective ways which will create health, not to try and fund a system that is like trying to stop a racing locomo tive going down the track to total destruction, but one that is motivated to improve quality of life instead of being motivated by money. I will give you an example, Madam Deputy Speaker. We all know the expense today of finding a cure for cancer. It is a multibillion-dollar industry, we are to ld. Those closest to this issue are the likes of the Canadian cancer associa tion, the American cancer association and the National Cancer Institute .

How much would they say the costs are? Madam Deputy Speaker, we know there are three accepted forms of therapy for treating cancer today accepted by these institutions, surgery, radiation and chemotherapy. We have all heard about them, yet it is documen ted that a person who chooses any one or more of these three therapies lives an average of three years. A person who chooses not to use any of the three therapies lives on average of 12.5 years. Expensive , I ask? You bet. Effect ive, I ask? It does not sound too effective to me. So why are we doing it? I do not know. Let me give you more.

In 19 75, the respected British medical journal, Lancet, re ported on a study which compared the effect on cancer patients of (1) a single chemotherapy, (2) multiple chemotherapy, and (3) no treatm ent at all. No treatm ent at all proved significantly, and I repeat significantly, a better policy for patients' survival and for quality of life . In 19 88, a Swedis h study fou nd that mammogr ams and early detection of breast cancer did not reduce death. Dr.

Lars Janzon of Sweden's Malmo General Hospital studied 42,000 women before concluding in Octo ber of 19 88, British Medical Journal, that mammo grams should be restrict ed, just like the report of our own Manitoba working group on the breast cancer scree ning said in March 1992, fou r years late r. Now that I have your attention, I want to address oth er areas of the budget, so I will move off health care for the moment in spite of its importance to me.

1267 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 16, 1992 Madam Deputy Speaker, society today is in a real struggle for survival. People are put in these various unfortuna te situations, in many cases through no fault of their own. Maybe they could have avoided their problems if they had taken greater responsibility themselves, rather than just accepting what they were dealt. Ther efore , for such people, our gov ernment also increased the level of funding to the Department of Family Services by an additional $51 million, an increase of 8.7 percent. That is four times the rate of inflation.

These additional funds will be directed toward several new initiatives and the expansion of several others. That, to me, suggests a caring gove rnmen t with which I am proud to be associa ted. An office of the children's advocate will be established to ensure that children in care are protected and well treated. Madam Deputy Speak er, the wife abuse shelter system and related services will be enhanced under this budget to provide for better care and counselling. Daycare operating grants are to be increased .

As well, an additional $40 million will be put into the social assistance budget to meet the additional demand that is being put on the system as a result of the recession. Our government has continued its su pport for Mani tobans with disabilities by increasing the supplem entary benefits by $8 million. It is often inferred that companies, when looking to set up shop in a pro vince, look at the education institutions available to supply the work force. In Manitoba, our government has maintained that education and training are a priority if we are to attract business and remain competitive.

This budget increases the funding to the Department of Education and Training by $52 million. This represents an increase of 5.5 percent or three times the level of inflation. Madam Deputy Speaker, an increase of $2.5 million has been put into new training progr ams at the pro vince's commu nity colleges, and additional resources have been provided for training through the Work force 2000 progr am. This additional funding reflects a renewed focus on equipping students with skills that are more relevant to the work force.

Our gove rnment has also increased funding to the university system by 3 percent and to schools by 6.8 percent. These increases to education and training represent a continued effort to equip our youth for the future by prov iding them with em ployable skills that are needed in the marketplace. As well as maintaining funding for education and training to assist our youth in attaining skills, our go vernment has broa dened the opportu nities for employment for our youth . Our gove rnment has maintained the CareerStart program and Student Tem porary Employment Program, or STEP.

In addition to this, our go vernment has also est ablished, through the budget, the Partners with Youth progr am. This program will assist young people between the ages of 16 and 24 years to establish and create their own opportunities for work and will be co-sponsored by business, local gove rnmen ts and nonprofit organiza tions. Clearly, Madam Dep uty Speaker, our gove rnmen t has remained com mitted to the programs and services that Manitobans value as priorities.

Our gove rnment believes that this total increase of $204 million was necessary at this time to maintain these services and put support where it was most needed. Sinc e 19 88, this governmen t has made competitive taxation one of its primary tools for promoting economic growth . Measures to improve Manitoba's tax competitiveness have focused on holding tax rates and pro viding targeted tax relief. This is in contrast to most other provinces where tax burdens have generally increased.

Initiatives include increases to the payroll tax exemption from $1 00,000 to $600,000, elimi nating the tax for many small firms, a payroll tax credit for empl oyer-sponsored generic training, reducing the effect of the tax rate from 2.5 percent to 1. 95 percent. Let us look at some of the programs contained in a budget that I am particularly proud of. The temporary Manufacturing Investment Tax Credit will encourage expansion and upgrading of Manitoba's man ufac tu ring and processing indus tries.

Investments will be eligible for the new 10 percent nonrefundable credit, including new manufacturing plants and equipment purchased for first-ti me manufacturing or process ing in Manitoba. • (1 510 ) Keep in mind that money must be spent on new equipment in order to trigger this tax credit. New equipment means new economic activity, new economic activity that will no doubt result in more jobs.

March 16 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1268 Here is an excellent initiative to create new man ufac turing and en cou rage exis ting manufacturing to expan d, in an area, I might add, that employs 11 percent of all Manitoba workers and had a total value of shipme nts last year of over $6 billion. Now, because of Manitoba's competiti veness within the manufacturing sect or, I see this as a particularly good and wise initiative.

In fact, manufacturing is an important indicator of the vitality of Manitoba's economy , contri buting 10 percent of gross domes tic produ ct and accounting for 11 percent of empl oyment. This industry is the largest goods-producing sector in Manitoba and is exposed to more international competitio n than most sectors, and analyzing, comparing small and larger typical manufacturing operatio ns in Winnipeg, Brandon and several Canadian and American cities in terms of their operating costs and taxes in the budget docu ment, tells the story quite well.

For small manufacturing, Manitoba fared very well with operating costs in Winnipeg, running lower than Regina, Calgary, Vancouver, Montreal, Halifax, Toronto, Chicago and Minneapolis. Brandon did even better with operating costs lower than Winnipeg's. When taxe s and operating costs are deducted from identical gross sales figures, Winnipeg and Brandon demon strated their competitiveness. Winnipeg's net income exceeded Vancouver, Calgary, Regina, Toronto, Montr eal, Halifax, Chicago and Minneapolis. Brandon's net income was higher than Winnipeg's and Fargo's net income.

Larger manufacturing firms presented a similar picture. A common me asure used to assess tax burdens is the effective rate , defined as total taxes as a portion of pre-tax net income. Winnipeg and Brandon were both below average when it came to effective tax rates for both large and small manufacturing firms. Lower market costs and moderate overall effective tax rates are positive factors for Manitoba firms. Manitoba manufacturing firms can compete with firms in other jurisdictions both in Canada and the U.S.

Over the past few years, while other provinces have increased a number of taxe s, Manitoba, I am proud to note , has held the line and even reduced some taxes as indicated in the budget. If these trends cont inue, the competitive advantages for manufacturing firms in Manitob a will con tinue. I would also like to talk about the new Manitoba Research and Development Tax Credit. Again, money must be spent to trigge r this tax credit. This 15 percent nonrefundable tax credit has been introduced to encourage research and development in Manitoba.

Qualifying expendi tures are for scientific research and experi men tal development carried out in Manitoba. Other important initiatives contained in our budget include the Payroll Tax Credit for Training Costs, a payroll tax credit to encourage the private sector 's investment in training. This initiative provides Manitoba firms with a credit to offset qualifying emplo yer-sponsored training and development costs. The credit, previo usly restricted to goods-prod ucing firms, will be extended to centralized operations and se rvice-oriented firms.

Another excellent initiative involves the tax cut for 1- 800 tol l lines. To help im prove the competitiveness of business telecom munication services in Manitoba, the PST on 1- 800 toll line charges will be elim inated eff ective May 1, 1992. Our government has also acted to assist the transportation sector of our economy. We realize the Impo rtance of the railroad transportation industry and have moved to increase the competitiveness of railway companies operating in Manitoba by reducing the locomo tive railway diesel fuel tax from 13 .6 cents to 12 .6 cents per litre effective July 1 of this year.

Additionally, the tax of aviation fuel will be reduced from 5.8 cents to 5 cents per litre effective July 1 of this year. I might point out that this new rate is a full 2 cents per litre less than Saskatchewan and has the same rate as Alberta. Mining taxation is another area I would like to address; here a comprehensive package of three initiatives that will assist mining exploration and esta blishment of new mines. The temporary 1. 5 percent refu ndable tax on mining profits est ablished in the 19 89 Manitoba budget has been extended .

Under The Manitoba Corporation Capital Tax Act, com panies that capitalize explo rat ion and dev elopment costs have those amounts included in their capital tax base . The cor porate capital tax will be amended to allow a deduction of these items. This aligns Manitoba's treatment with that of 01her pro vinces.

1269 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 16 , 19 92 A mining tax holiday will be implemen ted for companies mining new mines in Manitoba after January 1 of next year. Qualifying mine operators will not be requir ed to pay the mining tax until their profits for mining tax purposes equal their capital outlays in opening th e new mine. Mining companies which significantly increase their exploration activities in search of new mines in Manitoba will be entitled to a deduction equal to 150 percent of exploration expenditures in a given year that exceed the average of those expenditures In the previous three years.

This ince ntive is in effect from July 1, 19 91 . These mining tax changes will encour age expl oration and development of the mineral reserves in Manitoba and should have a particular benefit in Manitoba's north. I exp ect northern memb ers opposite to be responsible and welcome these initiatives within their constitu encies. However, from the dem onstration we saw last Friday from the member for Flin Aon (Mr. Storie) in the House, I have some concern. Their cons tituents should also have the same concern about them. While I am on the topic of being resp onsible, I would like to talk about the deficit.

I am very proud of the accomplishm ents of this government in holding the line on the deficit. As members know , we did this by transfe rring monies from the Fiscal Stabilization Fund. A move, as I mentioned earl ier, was criticized by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Doer) who, after repeatedly calling on this gove rnment to spend funds from the rainy day fund we had the wisdom to est ablish in 19 89, has turned to the duke of duplicity by criticizing us for investing the money to hold down our deficit.

Well, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would encou rage him to mail a copy of our budget to his friend Bob Rae, the $1 3-billion man, and mark it a lesson in fiscal respons ibility. Not only did we manage to keep the deficit down, but we did so by increasing spending in Health, Education and Family Services. * (1 520) The memb er for Concordia (Mr. Doer) also suggested that this go vernment spend more money on highways and hospitals. For some reason the member has chosen to have selective amnesia.

He has forgotten that this gov ernment presented its fifth budget in a row last Wed nesday where highways construction spendi ng will exceed $1 00 million. I say exceed $1 00 million. When it comes to hospitals, I would like to remind my honourable friend of our record . Let us look at the approvals for health facility construction plans for 199 1 -92 fiscal year.

Here is our record : $1 82.5 million for 21 major hospitals and personal care home replace men t, expansion or renovation pro jec ts; several smaller proj ec ts will be accomm odated through the contingency fund; $329 million has already been invested in Manitoba hospitals and personal care homes since this gov ernment came into offi ce; and $487 million worth of projects Is in the architectural drawing stage. I am proud of our government's track record considering these difficult times. I might add, Madam Deputy Speaker, we too listen to our constitu ents. They say reduce the debt and no more taxes.

We are listening, unlike the NDP gov ernments in the prov inces to our east and west. In Saskatchewan the NDP gove rnment came to power on a tremendous high. Throughout the el ection campaign Roy Rom anow and his candidates consistently told their audiences that the cupboard is bare , and in the midst of the campaign Romanow himseH charged that the deficit of the province was dramatically larger than the Incumbent government was estimating. In other words, the NDP campaign exhibited firm commi tted knowledge about the seri ous lack of resou rces of the government.

In spite of this knowledge, they campaigned on the basis that the expanded sales tax could be elimin ate d, no increases would be necessary and a series of funding Increases could be had. In particular, the Premier promised Increased funding to mu nicipalities. This was followed by a major cut after winning go vernment. Throughout the campaign the NDP promised increased funding to both Health and Education. After winning gove rnment, the people have been told neither require more money. That is a gov ernment of broken promises and broken faiths and the well of goodwill is rapidly being depleted.

That Is what Manitobans could expect if the opposition sitting opposite were in gove rnment. Heaven forbid, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the sake of all Manitobans. Madam Deputy Speaker, I feel that our budget supplies what Manitoba needs in order to pull us out of this recession and lead Canada into a prosperous future. This budget fulfills the needs of Manitobans by control ling spending yet maintaining and increasing funds to the priority services of Health,

March 16 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1270 Education and Family Services and also holds the line on the deficit. Madam Deputy Speaker, of the record of this government and its commi tment to working with Manitobans to build our province into a place where not only will businesses invest and create jobs but where people will enjoy a quality of life surpassed by none, the bottom line of this budget is not represented by just a dollar figure alone but rather by the effects it will have on the people of Manitoba.

Quality of life is just as important, which cannot be achieved by throwing money into a system alone ei ther. They too though mu st accep t the responsibility, as Manitobans working in partnership with government, to Improve their own quality of life for the benefit of all Manitobans. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr. Paul Edwards (St. James): Madam Deputy Speaker, it gives me some pleasure to stand and speak today on the budget which has been presented by the Finance minister for the upcoming fiscal year.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I will have some general commen ts overall with respect to the budget, and then I intend to make some specific comments with respect to the areas that I have the privilege of being the critic for the second opposition party for, most notably in the areas of Justice, Natural Resources, Urban Affairs and Environment.

Madam Deputy Speaker, generally speaking, let me say that the budget in my view is premised on a set of assumptions and a philosophy which is fundamentally wrong but which is understandable coming from this minister and this government, because they have been following that line since coming into governm ent. Indeed, I think they promised openly in the 1988 election when they first came to power that they would follow that line.

To me, it defies common sense to understand why they cont inue to toe that line, and that is the economic philosophy that says that if you put money in the hands of the corporate elite and the investors, that money will trickle down to the voter, the common or the average person. That is the theory. It is called, by reputation, the trickle-down theory. Madam Deputy Speaker, the only trickling down which Manit obans have seen under this government is the trick ling down of jobs to Mexico and the southern United States. That is this government's form of the trickle-down theory.

The theory is worked out by this Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) in his idea of promoting investment in this province by, in fact, putting those dollars in . the hands of corpora tions, many of whom do not even have head offices here in Manitoba, have done business in Manitoba, but there Is no guarantee that the dollars that he purports putting into their hands will end up in this province.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we have suggested in our party a philosophy of using government dollars, using the power of expenditure and of revenue raising by the provincial government to target Manitobans into putting money in the hands of Manitobans. That is the point. That is what is going to bring us out of this recession is putting dollars in the hands of Manitobans to spend money in Manitoba. An Honourable Member: We decreased taxes and you voted against it. Every year we decreased personal taxes. You voted against it. Mr.

Edwards: Madam Deputy Speaker, this minister-! see him, he is getting a little exercise in his chair. I am so pleased, because I certainly want his attention. let me just go over one of these suggestions. It is just one of many suggestions made by our Finance critic, but l think it makes sense. I hope the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) would be humble enough, would be open enough. He Is always calling for suggestions. Well, here Is one. I hate to give credit to former Conservative governments, but I am going to have to because I recall Sterling lyon.

You know, it is a rare day that I look to Sterling lyon for guidance. * (1 530) In 1979, he reduced the sales tax and he did it for a short-term period, and he did it for a reason. He did it to give the econom y a spurt. I recal l his argument at the time, because I was working in retail sales at that time. I recal l what he said. He said, we will not lose revenues by reducing the tax for a short period of time because that reduction in tax will be more than made up by the increase in sales.

I see across the way today many members who were in the House at that time, and who certainl y would have known that policy and presumably supported that policy. Can there be a better time; a more important time to take that lesson of giving1he economy a kick -start in terms of retail sales, something the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) is

1271 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 16 , 19 92 always crying about, as he should be, the lack of retail sales, the lack of retail sales tax revenues which are generated by that, a key component in determining the state of the economy? It is a good time to take that lesson. The beauty of it is that the revenue ramification is only triggered by a purchase in the province of Manitoba. It can only be triggered by that. Dollar for dollar, it is an investment which you will see the return of only by a purchase in this province, an increase in the revenue sales of this province .

That is the only way it can be triggered. There is no loss in terms of the efficiency of that tool in getting the economy going. I do not profess to have the aca demic training that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) does in economics, but it was good enough for Sterling Lyon. I would assume that part of the current Minister of Finance's studies would have inclu ded studying the economic plans of the former Premier of this province. I would assume that he is aware of that tool, that he has studied it and that he has turned it down, and I would like to know why.

I cannot believe that he would not have assessed it completely and looked at it as a tool to give this province the spurt we need, because he keeps saying and others keep saying: Well, we are almost coming out of this recessi on, so we are almost at the door. Something is going to happen. We are almost coming out. Well, this is the time for the kick-start. This is the time we need it. We need it right now. What is a better time than now to have that kick-start and get the economy fully out of the recessionary mode?

I acknowledge that he has some problems in the sense that we are not in control of the Bank of Canada nor are the western Premiers or other Premiers. The Bank of Canada sort of does what it wants and that is a problem. I do not blame this Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) for that. It is tough to deal- An Honourable Member: It is awfully big of you. Mr. Edwards: It is big of me. I know the minister says it is big of me to acknowledge that. I note that the recent philosophy of the Bank of Canada is, do not let the dollar drop.

We have to increase interest rates to make it more attractive on the currency market, so our dollar will stay up. I personally, Madam Deputy Speaker, think that is wrong-headed. I think the former policies of the Bank of Canada have been wrong-headed with respect to getting the dollar up in the first place. I personally think that we should be a nation conce ntrating on expor ts. Ou r expor ts will increase , we will become a more attractive place for purchases, if our dollar goes down.

I do not say that it should go way down, but I do not see that we should be increasing interest rates at this point with inflation virtually nil. We should be increasing interest rates to keep the dollar propped up-it is not my view of it, and I acknowledge that the Bank of Canada has that view. So it becomes a little difficult for this Minister of Finance to work around that. However, here is one suggestion that he has control over, and I look forward to his response to that suggestion first initiated by former Premier Lyon, and I recall his speeches at the time.

He was indicating-! notice I have caught the ear of the Minister for Energy and Mines (Mr. Downey). I am glad to hear that because I know he was in the House back then. I know he will remember the financial tragedies of the Lyon era, taking the debt offshore at a particularly inopportune time, costing us many, many millions of dollars as Manitoba taxpayers. But there was an idea that worked. People responded to that short-term reduction in retail sales tax in 19 79 in droves, the minister will recall. I believe he took 3 percent off for three months.

In any event, people said: Usten, I will make the best deal I can on a purchase , a major purchase now, save that 3 percent; better I have it than the government have it. They responded in droves. I recall it. I was working retail sales, and it skyrocketed for that period of time. pnterjection] Skyrocketed-the minister thinks I am talking about Starbuck. Now Starbuck is a very fine commu nity, but I was not talking about Starbuck. Mind you it is a very nice commun ity. I have been there a number of times. An Honourable Member: Have you? Mr. Edwards I certai nly have.

Starbuck is just west of our fair city, a lovely commun ity. I am sure that the people of Starbuck would be thrilled if a similar agenda was undertaken by this Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), as had been by the former Premier Lyon in the regard I have just spoken about.

March 16, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 1272 Madam Deputy Speaker, so the trickle-down theory is wrong-headed. It has been proven that way around the world, most clearly in the United States and under the Mulroney administration here. It just does not work. So really from there you have to jud ge this bu dget as fundamen tal ly wrong-headed. The rest of my commen ts are direc ted to the details, but that principle is at the root of what is wrong about this budget.

From that, all of the theories which are worked out in various departments, we can pick holes and talk about pro blems which I will do and go through it department by department, but the basis upon which this government is proce eding at root is wrong. It is bound to cause the difficulties and further difficulties for Manitobans when we are blindly adherent to that type of philosophy which favours the rich, favours the corporati ons. I am not one who says that business should not make a profit. I know, as I do not think many union leaders know, but I know that no profit, no jobs.

If business is not able to make an honest decent profit, they will not stay in business. Those are the rules of the game. Everybody understands that except the NDP, Madam Deputy Speaker, who never have understood that, who say, no, we are going to tax you to death, because you do not need a profit. You can just keep paying and paying and paying. Well, they leave or they go out of business, and then the government says, cries the blues. Where are you going? How oome you are going? You are deserting us. Well, they will desert you. If they cannot make a profit, they will desert you.

You are right, they will desert you, because there are all kinds of other places where they can make a profit. So I am not one to say that business should not make a profit. Business has to make a profit. That is the fundamental economic lesson which the NDP has never oome to grips with. I think it is because ultimately they do not mind seeing business leave, because they think they can run it better than business. They think, well, you know, so they leave. Okay, ICG, we will take over. If you want to make a profit and you do not like our tax, I mean, that is okay, because we are just waiting to take over anyway.

That is the wrong-headed approach of the New Democratic Party and, at root, it is out of sync I believe not only with econ omic reality, but with what the people of this province understand and want, Madam Deputy Speaker, from a government. The people of this province want a government that both understands the advantages of private enterprise and the limitations. That is a balance which needs to be struck on a daily basis in decision making by any responsible provincial government. Madam Deputy Speaker, we see in this House, and we are appropriately situated right in the centre , we see the two extremes.

We see the Conservative government that certainly sees the advantage of profit and of private enterprise. No doubt about that. They certainly see that, but that is all they see. They do not see the limitations, the need. Ultimately, the purpose of business, the purpose of government in control ling and regu lating business is to serve the public. Now, the people in business are cert ainly part of the public, but we are here to serve all Manitobans of all economic means from corner to corner to corner in this province. That is our job.

The Conservatives fail to see the people in this province who do not make profits. The only people they see are the people who are in business and hoping to make profits. Well, most of us are just trying to earn a living, making a wage, trying to do our best to live a decent life, meet our obligations, our financial obligations and our family obligations. That is what most of us are trying to do in this province.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we need a government that is prepared and willing to work with business but also to understand that business has its limitations and ultimately is not able to serve the public good and the public need without the input and assistance and regulation of government. • (1 540) Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to touch specifical ly on some of the glaring mistakes which I believe have been made in this budget. I do not pretend to be, in my comm ents, addressing all of them. It would be far too lengthy a speech for me to be able to do that.

My Leader has gone into much greater detail than I will, but let me key in particularly on the area of training and lifelong learning, which our Leader has so eloquently spoken about' on many, many occa sions for many years. I had the privilege of speaking on it many times, asking many questions of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Praznik), the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness). Now the Labour

1273 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA March 16 , 1992 portfolio, critic portfolio, has gone to my colleague the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). Madam Deputy Speaker, look at what this government is doing with respect to the young people in this province and the people who are unemployed in this province. They need a job, and you know what, if they do not have a job, they will do one of two things. They will stay here and end up on unemployment insurance, ultimately perhaps welfare, social assistance, with all of the social evils and ills that that brings. They will do that, or they will leave.

They will go somewhere else where they think they have a chance to get a job. We have to recognize that the average Canadian worker, in a life of working, is now going to make four or five significant changes in what he or she is going to do in any given career. The days of doing one thing, for one employer, for a lifetime are gone, and the average Manitoba worker knows that full well.

The job of government, in co-operation with business, is to bridge the changes for people, so that people can become trained in new technologies and in new duties and go on to new challenges and not have the disruptive effect of layoff, of unemployment insurance, of welfare, of having to move to look for better horizons. We want Manitobans to stay in Manitoba, and our job is to bridge those difficult periods in their lives. If we have any challenge before us as legislators in the current age, it is that.

It is to allow people that transitional period, that transitional time between jobs, between careers, because nothing is secure in the current marketplace . It is a highly com petitive, highly transitional mark etplace today. Cur rency floats constantly between jur isdictions, does not respect any boundaries, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the marketplace has shrunk and shrunk and shrunk.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we are going to be left out in the cold, not only in this country but in this province, unless we can hold our skilled workers and hold our population, indeed increase it by providing that kind of sane, civilized, progressive system whereby people are allowed to maintain income security while moving from task to task, job to job, perhaps employer to employer.

Yet, education and training assistance in this province is cut 30 percent; yet, commun ity college funding is $500,000 below the 199 1 level; yet, we see the inner-city employment initiatives, the Core Area Initiative, abandoned in this budget. The inner -city initiative, a specific program which provided learning opportunities for young people, is eliminated altogether. Where are these people going to go? As I have said, they are going to go one of two places. They are going to go onto the unemployment rolls, or they are going to leave the province .

I think this government would prefer that they left, and that seems to be what the government is saying. They are not saying, hey, stay in Manitoba, raise your children in Manitoba. We will do everything we can to help you bridge this difficult time, because it is a difficult time. Things are changing, we know that. We know you need some help. Stick with us in Manitoba, and we will see you through the transitional periods. That is not what they are saying. They are saying, well, you cannot cut it, sorry.

We are giving some money; we hope it trickles down to you, but hey, if you have to leave, you have to leave-too bad. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) That is the message in this budget, and It is more than tragic. In my assessment it is incredibly short-sighted for the long term in this province. Look at the people we are losing. We are losing the young people. We are losing people, many of whom have come and gone to our universities, and then they lea ve because they see better opportunities elsewhere. Often they do not want to leave, most often they do not want to leave, but they do.

They leave for better opportunities in other provinces. Mr. Speaker, turning to one of the specific areas that I have the privilege of being the Liberal critic on, and that is the area of Justice, I note that the Justice budget has increased over a number of years. Since I have been monitoring it as a critic, it has increased quite dramatically in terms of the dollars. However, what are the themes that one can draw from the way that the dollars are spent? It is not all bad. There have been many improvements in the justice system. Mr.

Speaker, it would be hard not to improve on the justice system after the legacy o

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-30a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 30a.pdf
Language	en
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