April 28, 1997

GOVERNMENT SERVICES ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of

Assembly.

CHAIR (Mr. R. Wiseman): Order, please!

I guess it is time we get started.

My name is Ralph Wiseman. I am the MHA for Topsail

and the Chairman for the Government Services Committee. I am told we do not have

to conduct elections because we are not a new Chair; we were the Committee last

year and things have not changed.

I guess we will follow the normal procedure that we

have followed over the years; we will probably meet until 10:00, which is three

hours from now, and probably take a break, if everybody is agreeable, at 8:30.

We normally have the minister's opening remarks for

fifteen minutes and those who are responding will have fifteen minutes to

respond; we will move back and forth between each Committee member for ten

minutes if they have questions. If they do not, then we will just stay until all

the questions have been asked and satisfactory answers have been given.

I will begin by having the Committee introduce

themselves, beginning with the Vice-Chair.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am Jack Byrne, Vice-Chair and

MHA for Cape St. Francis.

MR. FRENCH: I am Bob French, MHA for Conception

Bay South.

MR. SMITH: Gerald Smith, MHA for Port au Port.

MR. OLDFORD: Doug Oldford, MHA for Trinity

North.

MR. SPARROW: Anthony Sparrow, MHA for Placentia

& St. Mary's.

CHAIR: I want to welcome the minister and her

staff. Minister, if you wish, you may introduce your people and proceed.

MS BETTNEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

To my right is the Deputy Minister, John Abbott. I

think most of you are familiar with two faces you would recognize from last

year's proceedings: Terry Murphy, the ADM for Transportation and George

Greenland, the ADM for Works. Seated behind me are two new faces who would not

have been at last year's proceedings: we have Gordon Murphy directly behind me

and to my left - Gordon is the Director responsible for Finances and Human

WITNESS: He is Terry McCarthy, you said Terry

Murphy.

MS BETTNEY: Did I say Terry Murphy?

WITNESS: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: Okay. Terry McCarthy - I will

correct it for the record. Sorry, Terry.

MR. McCARTHY: No problem.

MS BETTNEY: Now then, would you like me to

proceed?

CHAIR: Yes, go ahead. You may lead off with a

fifteen-minute statement if you have one, or whatever you choose to do with that

fifteen minutes.

MS BETTNEY: Okay. I would just like to make a

few comments by way of an overview for the 1997-1998 Budget for the Department

of Works, Services and Transportation.

Having looked at all areas of our Budget and gone

through the program review process, for the most part the 1997-1998 Budget for

my department reflects business as usual with a few exceptions. You will note

from the Budget document that we are no longer maintaining cabin roads as a

Budget decision this year; we have parked two Canso water bombers, again in an

effort to save money from our operational budget. By way of additions to our

Budget, we have expanded the food-lift subsidy for Coastal Labrador and

including Great Harbour Deep, and we have expanded, of course, our

responsibility for marine services in assuming responsibility for the Labrador

Coastal Services from the Federal Government.

We have also expanded highway construction and we

have that budget augmented with the announcement of the Labrador transportation

initiative and the total now for the budget for the Island and Labrador is $97

million. We are making other incidental, in a sense, but other operational and

administrative changes within the budget to save in the order of $5.9 million

out of our operational budget of $133 million, and that includes combining some

functions at headquarters in terms of some of the divisions and closing the

stock room, saving on maintenance and building maintenance as well. So overall,

as a department, coming out of the budget exercise, we had to issue fifty

lay-off notices to our staff; however, I mention at this point, that because of

the voluntary departure program, we are now able to retain some of those staff

as well. So we are making adjustments to accommodate the efficiencies that are

required in the budget, and we will be dealing with the human resource issue as

we go, depending on the resources we have on hand.

We have, as members are aware, completed a detailed

analysis during the past year of all of the highway needs in the Province, and

we will soon be releasing a multi-year roads development plan for the Province.

We have the basis of that established in the assessments that were done of all

the provincial roads in the Province, but through our review of the Newfoundland

transportation initiative, also of the highways and the regional trunk roads.

As a result of our program review, we are, of

course, going to be just focusing in on our core services. We consider them to

be highway construction and maintenance, our ferry services, building and

property management. The key issue for us and the challenge will be to determine

what the best way is to deliver those services. In that regard, of course, there

has been an issue that has received considerable attention during the last few

days with respect to information that was provided to our employees in the

information circular that was distributed last week. We are going to be doing a

detailed analysis of the cost-effectiveness of using the private sector to

deliver some of these services over the coming months.

One final area we will be addressing as well over

the coming year is the continued maintenance and snow clearing of provincial

roads that are within municipal boundaries. As you heard during the discussions

again, I believe, during last week, there is an allocation of funding within the

Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs this year to accommodate

agreements that we can work with municipalities for them to assume

responsibility for provincial roads within their areas. This is an initiative

that we will be working in conjunction with the Department of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs to try to achieve, within the context of the money that has

been reserved for that purpose with the Department of Municipal and Provincial

Affairs.

Finally, on one of our other major functions, ferry

services, we plan to maintain the same service levels as we have in the past

year for our ferry services. However, this also assumes that the rate structure

that was implemented a couple of years ago will also be maintained, unless there

are offsetting savings to compensate for the rate increases that have been

planned for.

Other than that, gentlemen, I think those are some

of the highlights as I see it of the 1997-1998 budget for my department. As I

said in the beginning, it reflects very much just a business as usual approach

to the major functions of the department, with the difference, I guess, or the

comment I would add, being the areas that we are looking at on how to deliver

service will be something we will continue to study over the year, but do not

have a direct budget implication for 1997-1998.

CHAIR: Thank you, Minister. Before we go on, I

should mention that when you do speak or ask a question, could you please first

identify yourself so that the recorder upstairs can pick up the recording? Okay,

Jack, if you want to respond you are on.

MR. J. BYRNE: Basically, I have a number of

questions I was planning on asking, I have pages and pages here, as I normally

do, but Bob French is our critic, so I am going to let him start the

questioning.

MR. FRENCH: I guess, Minister, the first

question I would like to pose to you tonight is: What amount of money has been

paid out to settle the Trans City lawsuits to the various companies, which

companies, and how much money each one received?

MS BETTNEY: I am going to have to refer that

question. I would not have that information at hand tonight. It may be something

we have to get back to you on. John, would you - pardon?

MR. ABBOTT: (Inaudible).

MS BETTNEY: Yes, I would not consider that to

be a question that I would respond to here. I presume that the Minister of

Justice would be the appropriate responder to that question.

MR. FRENCH: The reason I raised the question

here, Minister, is that in the Estimates meeting for the Justice department, my

colleague, John Ottenheimer, asked the Minister of Justice what the pay-outs

were and who received the money. The minister said he did not know and that the

money for the Trans City affair was paid out to the Department of Works,

Services and Transportation, and that question should be asked of the Department

of Works, Services and Transportation. So that is why I ask the question here.

MS BETTNEY: I can only say to you, my senior

officials here are advising me that we have not paid out money with respect to

this particular issue, so I simply do not have the information to be able to

respond to you.

MR. FRENCH: So it is not being paid out through

your department, then?

MS BETTNEY: Not to my knowledge, and you are

looking at the senior officials of the department who are confirming that.

MR. FRENCH: Well, because that is what was -

again, just to repeat myself - but that is what Mr. Ottenheimer was told in

Justice by the minister that the money was being paid out through your

department and that it was a question that was better asked of Works, Services

and Transportation than it was of Justice. That would include, of course, legal

fees and penalties. So you would have no idea of what that -

MS BETTNEY: No, Sir.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

CHAIR: So, Bob, did you request that through

the Public Accounts Committee?

MR. FRENCH: No, no. When the Estimates were

done, because we figured it was a legal question - John raised a question, as I

said, of the minister, and then the Minister of Justice, Mr. Decker, referred us

back to this committee here. Okay, I will give him that answer and we will carry

on.

Minister, I would like to start on page 64. I will

start with 01, Salaries. Which portions are going to be, or have been,

eliminated to reduce salaries by $172,300?

MS BETTNEY: That reflects a reduction of eight

positions in Administrative Support.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, maybe if I could ask probably

at a later date if you could supply me with a list of exactly what positions

they were?

MS BETTNEY: Yes, we can supply it. I do not

believe we would have that detailed a listing here tonight. Okay?

MR. FRENCH: No, well, I figured you would not

anyway.

Professional Services have been or will be

eliminated to a reduction of $19,000. Exactly which professional services would

they be?

MS BETTNEY: This item refers to an estimate for

arbitration costs. We have been assigned responsibility for those costs and that

is where we have captured it under Professional Services.

MR. FRENCH: Professional Services increased by

$59,000 - that is on line 05 in the 1996-1997 Budget. It was $1,000 and it went

to $60,000.

MS BETTNEY: Perhaps I could ask the deputy to

respond to that one.

MR. ABBOTT: In 1996-1997 we undertook two

studies in the department and that was the amount we spent there.

MR. FRENCH: Would that have been studies of the

department?

MR. ABBOTT: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: John, could you be -

MR. ABBOTT: The two that we did; one was for

looking at our management function to see - in terms of getting ready for

program review and the second one is for Air Services, and the same thing,

looking at what options we should explore during the program review exercise.

MR. FRENCH: What actions were taken to reduce

Information Technology by $269,200?

MS BETTNEY: That amount that we have allocated

in 1997-1998 is an amount that again we have been allocated by Treasury Board,

and we will be making the necessary adjustment to fit that particular allocation

in our budget.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Which purchased services have been contracted to

effect an increase of $56,300?

MS BETTNEY: Which item are you referring to?

MR. FRENCH: That is 06.

MS BETTNEY: 06?

MR. FRENCH: It has gone from $218,100 to

$274,400.

MS BETTNEY: That is an estimated increase in

our printing services for the department for 1997-1998.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

In 01, the next one down, the salaries increased by

$43,100. That is in 01, Salaries, $306,600 from $263,500.

MS BETTNEY: I believe, and I can ask the deputy

to confirm this or to correct it if there is a problem with it, but my

understanding is that we were holding vacant positions in this particular

division during 1996-1997 which reflected the reduced expenditure over that time

period, and our salary allocation for 1997-1998 reflects what we feel we will

need in the way of employees back to its normal level for that time period.

MR. FRENCH: Would you have any idea, Minister,

of what type of individual you would be hiring for this? What would this person

here be doing?

MS BETTNEY: It would be a general

transportation policy analyst. We tend to have a general position. We also have

some specialized positions in the area of air and marine, and I guess in roads

as well. Then we have a generalist position as well.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Grants and Subsidies have been or will be

eliminated to effect a reduction of roughly $5,400. I just wonder why that was -

just under Grants and Subsidies.

MS BETTNEY: The Grants and Subsidies allocation

covers the grant to St. John's City Council for the HUB disabled transportation

system, and it also covers our participation in the Atlantic Provinces

transportation group.

I do not know if there are other aspects of the

grants and subsidies that are significant. Primarily, it is those two where we

provide an operating grant to TAC, which is the Transportation Association of

Canada, and the operating grant to the HUB, and then our involvement in the

Atlantic group.

MR. FRENCH: How much would our grant to the HUB

be?

MS BETTNEY: Our grant to the HUB transportation

is $94,500.

MR. FRENCH: And we are reducing that by...

MS BETTNEY: No, that is held constant from last

year.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. So the $5,400 would be -

WITNESS: That is a reduction in the fourth item

there.

MS BETTNEY: Okay. I believe last year we hosted

a provincial meeting for the Atlantic transportation group, and that is probably

why it was a bit higher than it has been budgeted for this year.

MR. FRENCH: Page 65, in Salaries, the salaries

have gone up by $134,100 and I would just like to know which positions will be

added to increase the salaries by that amount.

MS BETTNEY: I think one of the things you will

see as a constant throughout our presentation here is that under the revised

budget figures for 1996-1997 consistently we are coming in under what was

budgeted for 1996-1997, and that was very much a conscious delivered strategy on

our

part in terms of trying to save money as we were going through the year

knowing that we had a very tight budget. Therefore, when positions became vacant

for whatever reason, we tried to hold them as long as we possibly could without

refilling, and consequently our budget figures for the end of the year went

down.

In this particular instance, we are talking about

the budgeted figures for salaries under Administration for Road Maintenance

going back pretty well to the original level that was budgeted for 1996-1997. We

saved in operating salaries, overall last year, $3.5 million by just taking the

measure that when it became vacant, we would try to hold it as long as we

possibly could without refilling, and that was our overall savings under the

Salaries caption. So as I said, as you go through this, you will see from time

to time that we were down on our revised figures but in our budget for this

year, we are budgeting to go back to what we considered to be the level that we

need.

MR. FRENCH: So, would we have any indication of

how many positions this $134,000 might be, and exactly what they might be?

MS BETTNEY: I will have to ask one of my

officials--Terry or Gordon, if you can comment on that?

MR. McCARTHY: I do not have the information

right now. It is something I would have to get.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Would you send that to me,

Terry? You know, we are probably going to run into a few things as we go through

tonight for which we do not readily have the answers, so you could just add that

to the other one and when you have them all together, if you would be kind

enough to send them over to me?

MR. J. BYRNE: Could I ask a question, Mr.

Chairman?

CHAIR: Go ahead, Jack.

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes, when the (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: No, no. This could save time. I

mean, it is either deal with it now or deal with it later back and forth. I

mean, you are dealing with this page now and having to finish with it and come

back to it - you know, it is up to yourselves.

CHAIR: Well, you are handing your time over to

Bob and if Bob wants to give up his time now, he has only about five minutes, so

if you want to take the remaining five minutes with the (inaudible) that is fine

by me.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Well, the next question I

have is on 2.1.01.10, I guess, Grants and Subsidies. There are Grants and

Subsidies there for $200,000. May I ask what they are for?

MS BETTNEY: These are Grants that we provide to

local roads boards and it also includes the Subsidy that we provide for snow

clearing and grooming on the trails in Labrador. This is held at the same level

as we provided last year.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. I wonder if I could have a

list, Terry, of the local roads that will be covered off under this?

MR. McCARTHY: I can provide that for you;

actually, it is a grant to mainly isolated communities like Franois, McCallum

on the Coast of Labrador, for local roads boards.

MS BETTNEY: It would tend to vary from year to

year, depending on the particular project for which the community was applying

to us.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Support Services, salaries

again, there is an increase of $132,200, probably if you could send me, Terry,

the - I guess you would have to look up what positions they are and so on, which

would make the increase. So if you would be kind enough to send me those.

In Traffic Engineering And Signs, Salaries again

are up $38,200. Is that just one position we are creating? You know, are we

looking for some kind of a person in signage and so on? You know, it says: work

related to highways signage, pavement markings and, for the love of God, send

somebody up to Foxtrap and put the lines on the road before I am killed or my

wife is killed or somebody in our community is killed - while I am on that one.

MS BETTNEY: Yes. This is a bad time of the year

for line marking on roads.

MR. FRENCH: I know. I know it is, and in

Foxtrap, you cannot see them, Minister, I am telling you, and Ralph can attest

to that, too.

MS BETTNEY: The figure that you see in Salaries

for 01, reflects a reduction of one position from what was budgeted last year.

You will note that it was $435,800 budgeted for 1996-1997. We have reduced that

by one position, but again, specifically which position, we will have to follow

up with you.

MR. FRENCH: It says Revenue - Provincial,

$175,000. I am just curious as to what that revenue is.

MS BETTNEY: I am going to make a guess at that

one now. I believe it is revenue we receive for purchase of signs from

municipalities. Am I on with that one?

WITNESS: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: Okay, yes. We do provide signs to

municipalities upon request, but they pay us for the cost of those signs. This

is the estimated revenue associated with it.

MR. FRENCH: The next page, 2.1.04.03,

Transportation and Communications. The budget for Transportation and

Communications was exceeded by $25,000 last year. I just wondered what would

generate that.

MS BETTNEY: Okay, gentlemen, who would like to

respond to that?

MR. MCCARTHY: That is mainly travel, telephone,

those types of charges. Travel costs for our transportation workers depend on,

sometimes, how many breakdowns you have, how many times you have to send a float

out, or things like that. The figure varies a little every year. If we overrun

in this area we transfer it from somewhere else.

MR. FRENCH: Supplies - which have been or will

be eliminated to save $1,096,200.

MS BETTNEY: Maybe what we are talking about

with these supplies is the supply of gravel and asphalt for summer road

maintenance. That reflects a decrease in what we will have available for road

maintenance this summer.

MR. FRENCH: Just to ask a question. Would that

affect, I guess, the quality of some of our roads? We are going to reduce here

by 33 per cent.

MS BETTNEY: It will certainly affect the

condition of the roads that we maintain if we adhere to this. We are in the

process now of developing a maintenance plan for our roadwork for the summer.

When the officials have completed that, I will be reviewing it to see that we

are able to meet the priorities we need to have. I am hoping we will be able to

do that within the context of what we have allocated here, the $2.7 million.

MR. FRENCH: Purchased Services has increased by

$34,000.

MS BETTNEY: I did not particularly look at that

one specifically. Terry.

MR. MCCARTHY: Purchased Services mainly for the

hire of the equipment. It is actually a decrease from last year's budget. We

have taken a decrease as part of some of the general cut in this maintenance

area. Again, last year we managed the money and only spent the money if we had

to.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

CHAIR: Okay, do you want to rotate? If the

other members have some questions? Do you have any questions? Go ahead. I am

recognizing you, Gerald. We can come back then to -

MR. SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, there are three points I want

clarification of. In your opening statement you referenced the cabin roads.

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. SMITH: What exactly are these cabin roads,

and how was that money administered?

MS BETTNEY: There are a number, 363 kilometres,

I believe, of roads in the Province that we have designated as class 4 roads.

They fall into a couple of categories. You would typically recognize them as

cabin roads, and that is why I referred to them in that manner. They could also

be roads that were by-passed by new roads and intended to be abandoned but, for

whatever reason, were not completely abandoned. We were continuing to provide

maintenance to them.

The manner of maintenance that we would have

provided to these class 4 roads was a couple of gradings during the summertime

for summer maintenance and in some cases we were actually providing some snow

clearing on some of these roads as well. This whole item represented over

$500,000 in our budget this year. The department felt that in dealing with its

priorities and attempting to arrive at some degree of consistency in terms of

class 4 roads that we would withdraw completely from providing maintenance both

summer and winter to any class 4 roads in the Province that fit roughly those

two categories. Now, there will be some anomalies. We will deal with those as

they arise and are brought to our attention but for the most part we should not,

during this year, be providing either summer or winter maintenance to what we

would know as cabin roads and other roads that should have been abandoned when

the full-time year-round road was established.

MR. SMITH: I am curious as to how the money

would have been administered, because you said there were 370 kilometres -

MS BETTNEY: Three hundred and sixty-three

kilometres is our best estimate of the volume of roads that we have under this

category.

MR. SMITH: Three hundred and sixty-three

kilometres, $500,000, obviously there is no way that was there any sort of

ongoing - you mentioned things like snow clearing and gradings. There is no way

you could do that - was this on a request basis like from a region? Or was it

budgeted out for the - I did not know anything about them, and the first I heard

of these cabin roads is when they were eliminated from this year's Budget. That

is why I am curious and the thing that really intrigues me is that one of these

roads is in my district and I know what I have gone through since 1993 trying to

get anything done with the road. I guess I am more concerned right now as to -

if that $500,000 - if there was some money there I could have been getting for

the last three years that I did not get.

MR. McCARTHY: The money was budgeted in our

general maintenance program. There was no separate category that singled out the

different classes of roads. All the maintenance budgeted is in this heading you

see there, Maintenance and Repair. It is not in ice control, it is all in that

budget. That is why there was $500,000 taken out for those cabin roads and that

is why some of the figures are adjusted, to reflect that change in the budget,

taken out of these roads.

MS BETTNEY: That would have been a prorated

Budget expense, I would suggest to you, and this is our estimate of what we will

save in maintenance by not having to provide the resources to maintain those.

MR. SMITH: The thing that intrigues me, the one

on your list that is from my district, The Blue Beach Road, for as long as I

have known, it has been classified as a fisheries access road. Whenever I have

gone to get repairs on that road in the past, the procedure always was to make

the request to the Department of Fisheries and Aquaculture who would then

contract the Department of Works, Services and Transportation to do the

necessary work. It was my understanding that there would somehow be an internal

exchange that would look after it. Now, I am just wondering, if that was the

situation with that particular road, I mean, are we just talking about - is this

just a paper exercise here? I am really confused about this whole issue because

I know in my case the only one that is on my list, I really do not - when it was

classified as a cabin road that was really a -

MS BETTNEY: Surprise.

MR. SMITH: Yes, it is.

MR. McCARTHY: Fisheries access roads were not

supposed to be included in the list and for the most part they were not but

there were a few that got on the list, like Blue Beach. I recognize it as a

fisheries access road but that has since been taken off. I have not given it to

the minister yet but that will come off the list.

MR. SMITH: So that was -

MR. McCARTHY: That is a fisheries access road.

MR. SMITH: Okay, so that takes care of - so

that was put there in error on that list?

MR. McCARTHY: Correct.

MR. SMITH: Okay.

Minister, you also referenced in your opening

statement the agreement with regard to secondary roads right now between your

department and Municipal Affairs. How exactly is that to proceed? The money for

that is not carried in your budget, that is carried in the Department of

Municipal and Provincial Affairs?

MS BETTNEY: That is correct.

MR. SMITH: How is that whole process supposed

to work?

MS BETTNEY: Minister Reid, I believe, spoke to

this in the House last week when he was announcing the infrastructure program.

There was a category in the infrastructure works which represented $2 million

which was allocated to the Department of Works, Services and Transportation to

indicate that the money, that $2 million, has been reserved for these kinds of

agreements with municipalities to effect the transfer of provincial roads. In

addition to that, we have indicated as a department that we are going to secure

and find within our existing resources $3 million additional, so that there will

be a total of $5 million available for working arrangements with the

municipalities to take over the responsibility for provincial roads.

Essentially, what I am doing when I am talking to

communities on this subject is encouraging them, if they are interested in

pursuing this, to contact primarily the Department of Municipal and Provincial

Affairs. They can also contact my department. We will be working co-operatively

with the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs to work out substantive

arrangements around these agreements, and any other aspect of agreements that

the municipalities are negotiating with the Department of Municipal and

Provincial Affairs.

In terms of how people should proceed with it -

either a direct contact to the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs or

to my department. The process will be that we will work in conjunction with the

Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs to address the overall needs of

communities in relation to their financial arrangements. One aspect of it will

be the provincial roads piece, and what kind of agreement we are able to work

out to hand over responsibility for those.

MR. SMITH: Thank you. One other item, if you

could. The air ambulance program. Last year there was a review process, I think

the gist of which was to examine this whole thing from the point of view as to

whether or not privatization was a viable option. Here this evening, I think

your Deputy Minister mentioned in response to one of the questions from my

colleague that one of the studies undertaken was in relation to this. I wonder

if you could tell us, in terms of the review that has been taken with regard to

this whole program, what the department's plans are. I would imagine for this

year, judging from the fact that we do have the allocations in the budget, it is

going to be status quo, but does this mean we have given up on privatization as

a viable option?

MS BETTNEY: At this point, we have included it

in the budget with the same financial allocation. That reflects the fact that we

believe we will have to spend the same amount for Air Ambulance services in

1997-1998 as we have spent in the past. When we were going through the process

of examining the Air Ambulance Service to determine whether we would privatize

that and put it out to tender, a couple of the factors that were associated with

it changed in midstream, more or less.

Over the last month-and-a-half we have been

informed that the flying hours under pressurized conditions for the King Air air

ambulance, which is the main aircraft that provides air ambulance out of the air

services division, has now changed, and that it is possible, with a refit, to

extend the life of the King Air for air ambulance purposes.

When we started on this process of looking at the

air ambulance service and how we should deliver it, one of the driving factors

was the fact that we expected to have a very limited flying life for the air

ambulance, for the King Air. Now we have to consider how that changes, how we

are approaching this. We are still in the process now of just re-examining where

we will go with this.

I would suggest to you that we will make that

decision in the near future, but I cannot, obviously, pinpoint when it will be

made. Our budget position reflects the fact that we know what it costs us to

continue to operate it ourselves. We would not expect to have to pay more for

the service. Until we make the final determination now what to do with it, based

on the new circumstances we are presented with, we will simply continue on.

MR. SMITH: Thank you, Minister. That is it for

me.

CHAIR: Doug?

Do you want to start back, Mr. Byrne, on the other

heading?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

CHAIR: I understand that now the two of you

will, for efficiency, together ask what questions you have.

MR. J. BYRNE: Back and forth, the same page.

CHAIR: You are going to just identify yourself.

MR. J. BYRNE: Jack Byrne, the Member for Cape

St. Francis. Minister, the explanation you gave with respect to Salaries, on

page 65, how it decreased from 1996-1997, what was budgeted, and then increased

again for 1997-1998. If a person wanted to be a bit cynical, in the three

headings there, Administration, Support Services, and Traffic Engineering and

Signs, with the amount of cuts in the administration, in government these past

few years, one could say there is a number of people who have been let go, and

more people being hired back on, in those positions. What is the possibility of

that having been happening in the Department of Works, Services and

Transportation? When I say that, I mean, if you are going to be cynical and

political.

MS BETTNEY: Really, as I indicated to Mr.

French, what we have tried to do within the department over the past year, given

the constraints we were operating on, was get along as best we could. But we

recognize in budgeting for the next year that there are certain positions we do

have to have a staff complement for. The increase is not, as you can see, an

increase over what was budgeted originally. It just retains the status quo, to

all intents and purposes.

MR. J. BYRNE: The point I am making is that

with the cuts that have been there, people could have been let go in the

department - this could be happening in every department, I do not know - but I

know I see a lot of new faces around this building when there are people being

let go every day. People could be let go, the budget brought down, and people

hired back in - politically-hired type of thing, is what I am saying. Is that

happening or not? Yes or no?

MS BETTNEY: No Sir, that is not happening, to

my knowledge.

MR. J. BYRNE: I hope not. A few other

questions. In your opening remarks you talked about the Labrador coastal

service. I would just like to get an explanation from yourself how you expect to

see the long-term benefits to the Province and the people of Newfoundland and

Labrador, in particular, with the costs of that service.

MS BETTNEY: Are you talking the whole Labrador

transportation initiative?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, basically, the money - the

Labrador coastal service has just been privatized, has it not? Not privatized,

but down-loaded to the Province, certain parts of it?

MS BETTNEY: We have accepted responsibility for

the Labrador marine services, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, that is what I am asking.

Can you explain how you can see that benefiting the people of this Province in

the long haul?

MS BETTNEY: We received from the Federal

Government a sum of $340 million in compensation for accepting responsibility

for the marine services in Labrador. We recognize that in accepting that

responsibility there is an ongoing cost associated to providing marine services,

but marine is only one part of the transportation infrastructure in Labrador.

There is a road network that is both existing and planned, and there is also an

air service as well.

The benefit that we see with this as a province is

that by having this funding up front, and it is a full up-front payment of $340

million, plus the also in-kind benefit of the vessels that we would receive

responsibility for, permits us to develop a much needed transportation road

network in Labrador which has long been desired and needed in Labrador to

provide for transportation needs for people and the movement of goods and

supplies.

We know that the sum of money we have received from

the Federal Government is sufficient to do two major portions of the road work

that is required, and still maintain and fund the level of marine service that

will be required during the development of the road network. You will see a

changing marine service in Labrador as the road system gets developed, because

there will not be a need to provide the same kind -

MR. J. BYRNE: How much does it cost to operate

that ferry service, at this point in time, yearly?

MS BETTNEY: Now, I am not really fresh on the

details of the figures associated with the existing services.

WITNESS: (Inaudible) $13 million.

MS BETTNEY: Okay, the deputy minister tells me

that the existing service - and yes, that would reflect the contract that we are

assuming from the Federal Government with Marine Atlantic - is in the order of

$12 million to $13 million.

MR. J. BYRNE: How many years before this new

road network and new system is in place?

MS BETTNEY: There are two components to it. The

road network that runs from Goose Bay to Labrador City will be completely

upgraded to an all-weather gravel standard within three years. The road network

on the coast, which also affects the marine service and the requirement for

marine service, will be completed, we are estimating, within six years. At that

point there will still be a gap in the middle which we have committed to funding

and completing somewhere in that time frame and post- six years, so six to ten

or twelve years, I would suggest.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you have twelve years at $15

million a year.

MS BETTNEY: Pardon?

MR. J. BYRNE: You are looking at $15 million a

year for twelve years; that is $180 million, is it?

MS BETTNEY: No, the requirement for marine

services is going to change, I would suggest to you, even within the six-year

time frame where the coastal access route is being developed, but particularly

at the point where you have access from Red Bay to Cartwright. Then you are

going to see an entirely different requirement for marine service on the Coast

of Labrador, so six years is when you get to look at a different level of

service requirement.

MR. J. BYRNE: Once those roads are constructed

then you have road maintenance and snow-clearing and what have you, and the cost

involved with that. I just have the question, if there is going to be as good a

deal as you might want us to believe.

The other point I would like to make is that the

same type of a deal was structured or cut for southern Newfoundland. There was

supposed to be so much money, $50 million or $60 million, or whatever it was, to

be set aside with the interest being used to operate the system, and that money

was used last year to balance the budget - the year before last - so depending

on how the government handles this, this could be a pretty bad deal for

Newfoundland.

MS BETTNEY: I do not think there is any way you

could look at this as a bad deal for Newfoundland when we are receiving, in

cash, in one year, $340 million which we can then manage financially to accrue

the benefits that we will need to put into the development of transportation in

Labrador.

MR. J. BYRNE: Time will tell, I suppose.

The next question: You mentioned in your opening

remarks, municipal roads, and the funding for municipal roads. I had a question

to ask - how much was there - but it has been asked already and answered: $5

million - $2 million plus $3 million.

Back in 1993-1994, when I saw the 1994 Budget come

down, there was one sentence in the Budget that I picked up on and I knew what

was coming down the road with respect to the downloading to the municipalities

of the connector roads and what have you; so I approached the towns in my

district to put forth - I met with the Department of Works, Services and

Transportation to work out a deal with the department for the towns to take over

responsibility for certain roads. Now the Town of Logy Bay - Middle Cove - Outer

Cove - and you are familiar with this, and the deputy is familiar; everybody is

familiar with it - there were three roads down there that worked out an

agreement that the town was willing to take over responsibility for these. One

of these, of course, is the Marine Drive in Logy Bay - Middle Cove - Outer Cove,

and with the Cabot Celebrations coming on this year, the road is in desperate

condition. I met with you last Fall and told you and whoever about this, and

seeing that there is $5 million there now - and also the Town of Flatrock,

WindGap in Flatrock, is at the point where you are doing the normal speed limit

on occasions you could be driving dangerously; the road is that bad. It is

almost as bad, I suppose, as the Marine Drive in areas.

What kind of priorities are those roads going to

get, in light of the fact that they were probably the first two towns to come in

and work a deal with Works, Services and Transportation?

CHAIR: Is this a lobby? You are lobbying?

MR. J. BYRNE: I am asking questions -

CHAIR: I was curious.

MR. J. BYRNE: - legitimate questions to the

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation with respect to roads in the

Province.

MS BETTNEY: This area is a high priority for

us. We will be working at the officials' level to try to arrive at these

agreements with these communities as well as others, particularly on the Avalon

Peninsula as well. We are looking at having to really be strategic in how we

focus our resources. That is why we have put aside this funding in the budget

this year, to try to encourage communities and provide some incentives for them

to be able to assume these roads that are within their own communities. That

will sort of free up, to some extent, our resources to be able to focus more on

the community access roads, the secondary roads and the Trans-Canada Highway.

MR. J. BYRNE: These are two towns that you do

not have to encourage anymore. The deal has been struck. The department

officials have been down and have done a study on the roads to see what was

needed to be done; and agreement has been made that the roads would be taken

over when this work is done.

MS BETTNEY: I would suggest to you then, that

we will be following up with the Department of Municipal and Provincial Affairs,

and that we will have further discussions with the towns in question over the

coming weeks, months.

MR. J. BYRNE: My colleague here has a question,

I think, at this point.

MR. FRENCH: Minister, the road network in

Labrador, when it is completed. What is the estimated cost of the total road

network for Labrador?

MS BETTNEY: I am sorry, I missed your question.

MR. FRENCH: What is the total cost of the

completed road network in Labrador? We mentioned, I think, $341 million dollars

here from the Federal Government, and we mentioned like $15 million or $12

million a year to maintain the coastal service until we get up to a certain

point. Overall, to complete the Trans-Labrador Highway, what is the estimated

cost to do that road?

MS BETTNEY: The estimated cost for the two

pieces that we consider we have funding for in the Labrador agreement is $190

million. That acknowledges that the connecting piece between Cartwright and

Goose Bay will require an additional $177 million. That is not considered to be

included in the funding we have received. However, the $190 million reflects the

coastal access road from Red Bay to Cartwright, and the completion of the

upgrading from Goose Bay to Labrador City - Wabush.

MR. FRENCH: So we are still going to have to

come up with that extra money to complete it?

MS BETTNEY: Yes, for the piece that is the link

in the middle. We have acknowledged and said right from the beginning that we

will have to find the $177 million that is required to complete the

Trans-Labrador Highway when the other pieces are finished.

MR. FRENCH: When the combined councils were in

for meetings I think they met with possibly yourself and I think they met with

Cabinet. They met with our caucus, I know that. They were talking about the

whole network of roads in the Labrador region. It was a fairly high price tag on

it. Have we done an estimate to exactly what the total road networking in

Labrador will cost?

MS BETTNEY: That is what the figures I just

gave you represent, what we have estimated, and it is, I think, a fairly

reliable estimate.

MR. FRENCH: So it is roughly $500 million.

MS BETTNEY: Three hundred and sixty-seven

million dollars, I believe, is the total. I am looking at $60 million for the

Goose Bay to Labrador West piece. That is the existing road, bringing it up to

an all-weather standard; $130 million for the Cartwright to Red Bay piece, and

$177 million for the link in the middle. Does that add up to $367 million?

MR. FRENCH: Three hundred and sixty-seven

million dollars.

MR. J. BYRNE: You mentioned funding in your

opening statement and ferry services in the same funding as last year, but when

you were speaking, I just had the feeling, for some reason or other - I do not

know if it was your comments or not - but one statement you made was it is the

same funding for this year as for the past year. I am wondering if we are going

to see movements now to actually privatize more of the ferry services around the

Island.

MS BETTNEY: I should make a correction. I

believe my comments were that we would be able to retain the same service levels

as the ferry service from last year. I believe that the funding you will note in

the Budget has a decrease in the actually dollars that are allocated, but we are

confident, as a department, that we will be able to work within that and still

retain the same kind of service level to those communities which are serviced by

the ferries, assuming again, that, it also includes the rate increases that were

planned a couple of years ago for, I believe, a five-year implementation.

MR. J. BYRNE: So this funding that you are

speaking of now, I know you do have some private, I suppose, people doing these

rounds now and you will contract out to those people; so, will you have any

government services that is now being done by the government, and paid for by

the government, that we will see be privatized, in the next few years, with

respect to ferry services to the islands?

MS BETTNEY: With respect to ferry services

right now, we have a combination. We have the Southcoast ferry service which is

operated by the private sector, and we have the number of other services

including Bell Island and Fogo, Change Islands which is run by our own

department.

The Budget plan that we have here with the finances

and everything else that we have estimated, does not make any provision for, or

presume, any privatization or any efforts in that area. It simply puts forward

the same service-delivery mechanism that we have right now; it presumes that we

can make some internal efficiencies to save some money, retain the same level of

service to the communities but, we are out actively working with communities

which are serviced by ferries right now, to try to better improve the ferry

service to meet their needs. We have actually designated one of our

transportation planning staff as a community liaison officer with the

communities that are serviced by the ferry system to work with them to try to

determine more closely what needs they have, and how we can better accommodate

them within the context of the monies that we have allocated right now.

MR. J. BYRNE: But the question really is: Are

there any discussions within the department now, along the lines of further

privatizing government services with respect to ferries?

MS BETTNEY: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: No?

MS BETTNEY: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, good.

Let us go back to page 66, Grants and Subsidies

under Maintenance and Repairs. Which grants and subsidies have been eliminated

to reflect the reduction of $93,300?

MS BETTNEY: That $93,000 figure reflects the

last payment that was made to the City of St. John's for roads that they took

over the responsibility for, so the last payment was made in 1996-1997. There is

no further provision in this year's budget.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. In this same section, 09,

Allowances and Assistance, you had budgeted, I think, $150,000 and up to

$225,000. Why were the allowances over the budget by $75,000?

MS BETTNEY: That reflects a couple of accident

claims that we had to pay out in 1996-1997. We have again allocated a block

amount in 1997-1998 which we would expect to be average or normal, but last

year's experience was different. It went a little bit higher.

MR. J. BYRNE: When you say accident claims,

could you be more specific?

MS BETTNEY: I will have to ask one of my

officials for some specifics here.

MR. McCARTHY: We do get sued from time to time

for traffic accidents. Sometimes we settle out of court, and sometimes we are

found liable in some cases. There are other claims. Sometimes we do damage to

fences and some properties sometimes during their operations, so it is those

types of liabilities that we incurred that are paid out of this heading.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

With respect to Snow and Ice Control, Salaries, I

suppose the same explanation as previous for the increase there.

MS BETTNEY: Yes. The Salaries reflect just

vacancies, but also a milder winter where we had to have less of a recall on our

resources, and therefore, less cost.

MR. J. BYRNE: Nine hundred and twenty-five

thousand dollars worth.

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Let me see. Supplies, 2.1.05.04.

Why have supplies been reduced by $80,000? Well, salt and sand, I would imagine;

because it was a good winter?

MS BETTNEY: The budgeted figure is reduced for

1997-1998.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: Again, it is simply an estimate on

our part that we are going to make fit.

MR. J. BYRNE: Purchased Services, 2.1.05.06.

Why has Purchased Services increased by $1,067,000?

MS BETTNEY: There is a

section of the Labrador

highway which previously had been maintained by CF(L)Co. They are not going to

be providing that maintenance this year. We have assumed responsibility for it,

so we will be now contracting that maintenance, as we do the rest of the

Trans-Labrador Highway.

MR. J. BYRNE: Why would they not be having

responsibility for that now if they did it in the past?

MR. McCARTHY: When the highway was opened five

years ago on a year-round basis, we negotiated an agreement with CF(L)Co. to

provide the winter maintenance on the

section of the road from Churchill to Ross

Bay Junction. Basically, that agreement was founded on - they used to have a

siding in Esker and they used to have to keep their Esker road open. I think

that place burnt. In lieu of rebuilding the place, they agreed to give us winter

maintenance on the road for five years, but at the end of five years we would

take over and then provide the year-round. We provide the summer maintenance

now.

MR. J. BYRNE: Amount to be Voted, .02, Revenue

- Provincial, $1,990,000. What is the source of this revenue?

MS BETTNEY: (Inaudible).

MR. McCARTHY: Two sources, mainly revenue from

community councils where we provide the snow clearing service for them at a fee,

and some work we did in Gros Morne Park for Parks Canada.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you.

On page 67, Administration, 2.2.01.09, Allowances

and Assistance. Which allowances and what assistance have been or will be

eliminated to effect a reduction of $704,900?

MS BETTNEY: This is similar to the item under

Snow and Ice Control where we put in for any claims that are made. There were a

couple of items we had to pay out claims on in 1996-1997. We were aware of them

going into the budget year and budgeted for them. We are not aware of any in

this current fiscal year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Could you be more specific with

respect to those claims?

MS BETTNEY: Again, I will have to ask one of

the officials to comment on the specifics of the claims, if we have that

information here.

MR. GREENLAND: I am reluctant to record the

individual's name, but we did have a property claim whereby an individual

slipped and fell. We ended up in court and basically, at the end of the

exercise, we owed the gentleman I think between $700,000 and $800,000. I can get

you the specifics.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I would like to get the

specifics.

WITNESS: Did that come up last year?

MR. GREENLAND: Oh yes, the case is about two to

three years old. It is not new. We were settling it the previous year, and

carried over into last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: I remember it coming up last year

but I do not think we asked for or got the details at that time.

MR. GREENLAND: Okay.

MR. J. BYRNE: I think my time must be up by

now.

CHAIR: Well, I wanted to give you as much time

as I can. If members indicate that they want to ask questions then I will ask

you to stop and go to the other member.

Doug, do you have some questions?

MR. OLDFORD: I have a question.

CHAIR: Okay, go ahead.

MR. OLDFORD: Minister, it relates to Project

Management and Design on page 71.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MR. OLDFORD: Yes.

This is a general question. Your project management

and design people look after the design of new buildings and major renovations

to existing buildings.

MS BETTNEY: This, on page 71, refers to our

road construction, project management and design.

MR. OLDFORD: No, it is 3.1.02.

MS BETTNEY: Alright - I was looking at the

heading at the top of the page.

MR. OLDFORD: No, no.

The question is sort of a general one. The

buildings that you look after, would that include schools and hospitals?

MS BETTNEY: In terms of the design work?

MR. OLDFORD: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: We have overall responsibility when

it comes to managing the construction of facilities on government's behalf. It

is typically decided almost project by project, and in the majority of cases we

contract out the design of facilities such as hospitals, which you mentioned.

With respect to schools, I am going to ask Mr.

Greenland to comment. There is not a direct responsibility that we have as a

department. We tend to provide that service if we can accommodate it and if it

is desired by the Department of Education, but again it is almost on a

project-by-project basis.

MR. OLDFORD: I guess my concern is that we are

into this cost-saving mode, and if we have a like division in the Department of

Health and a like division in the Department of Education designing properties,

why do we not just put it in one department, whether it be your department or -

MS BETTNEY: I am going to ask Mr. Abbott to

comment on that.

MR. ABBOTT: Mr. Oldford, in terms of that,

right now we are the only department that has full responsibility for the design

of government buildings. In terms of health, we do their designs; so they do

have a

section or division in the department that looks at their capital

projects, but the actual design is managed through our services and we would

contract on their behalf.

In terms of education, we are discussing that very

point with them. They do not have design staff themselves, so the school boards

would be hiring their own, and we are talking to the new school construction

board about the same thing you are talking about, about bringing that under our

jurisdiction, but that is something we would have to discuss further with them.

MR. OLDFORD: When this came up originally, the

issue was bricks. I was trying to figure out if I was going to get some work for

my little brick yard down in Milton. What happens is you get referred to the

health care corporation, to your department, to the Department of Education, and

all over the place. It would seem to make sense to me, with the reduction in the

number of buildings we are building, that we do not need designers in three or

four different departments, and if we are in the cost-saving mode maybe we

should look at amalgamating all of these functions under one. We have done it

with human resources in a number of departments; why not do it with planning and

design?

MS BETTNEY: Yes, and those discussions are

taking place, as the deputy minister indicated.

Mr. Greenland would like to comment as well.

MR. GREENLAND: Just a general comment, I guess,

to set the record straight. Generally, with large buildings, we contract out the

design, first of all. Where you are running into a difficulty to some extent is

where the ultimate responsibility for the project lies, and I will just give you

an example.

In St. Anthony hospital, of course, we retain the

consultant; we supervise the construction project. With the Health Care

Corporation in St. John's at this moment we are actually providing a consulting

service to the corporation that is managing the project.

So there is a little bit of a mixed role but I

think the direction we are on, as the minister said, is that eventually it will

come back to kind of a one focal point and I think out of necessity probably as

much as anything.

The school one, as the deputy points out, is very

much an active debate. The change in the school construction program - and I say

this kindly - is it leads logically to the fact that Works, Services and

Transportation would assume construction responsibilities for major school

construction. We have kind of the internal infrastructure to do that but again,

we will not do design, we will just manage through consultants.

MR. OLDFORD: Okay, fine. The only other

question I had was on cabin roads but since (inaudible) straightened out I guess

mine will be straightened out tomorrow. Thank you.

CHAIR: Anthony?

MR. SPARROW: Yes, I have a question on cabin

roads, too. Plans for cabin roads, what happens in a situation where there are

livyers on the road, or a business? Will it still be classed as a cabin road

then?

MS BETTNEY: There are quite likely some of

those 363 kilometres which are anomalies. What I have indicated to people is

that if there are aspects of the actual function of the road that call into

question whether it should be a class 4 road, then we will look at that as a

department and make a determination on it. So if that is an issue in terms of

any of the class 4 roads in your area, I would just encourage you to come to the

department and we will look at them case by case to determine whether they are

in fact cabin roads, what we call class 4 roads or if there is some different

function that causes us to consider it otherwise. But simply the fact that

people live on it year-round would not necessarily mean that it is not a cabin

road, because there are areas of the Province that have cabins, where people

have chosen to live in their cabins year-round and they are still considered as

cabin roads.

MR. SPARROW: Another question, I am not sure,

but earlier did you say that you would be announcing a multi-year plan for road

construction?

MS BETTNEY: I am hoping to be able to release

our multi-year plan soon. We are in the final stages of putting the finishes

touches, I should say, on the multi-year plan for our roads in the Province. The

basis of it is the full assessment that we undertook over the past year, of all

of the roads in the Province, from the Trans-Canada to our community access

local roads.

MR. SPARROW: When you say soon, I do not want

to put you to an exact date, but is like within three months or six months?

MS BETTNEY: I would hope within less than three

months.

MR. SPARROW: Thank you.

CHAIR: Okay, back to Mr. French.

MR. FRENCH: Just on page 67, and we can do some

of this maybe a bit quicker. Any time I come to Salaries, Terry, I will give you

the page number and if you could, supply the answers to me in writing. On page

67, Salaries and Administration and Technical Support, the salaries again, there

are changes there, so when you do your letter on Salaries, would you send me the

information concerning both of those?

On page 68, again in Salaries, I would ask the same

question there. There are $242,700 there. I will go down to Supplies, which

supplies have been eliminated to save $80,000?

MS BETTNEY: In Supplies, the estimate that is

included for 1997-1998 reflects a reduction in fuel costs due to some

conservation measures that we have taken over the past year or will be

initiating in this year. Also, the ADM mentions to me that we have had some

building closures which affects our overall cost of fuel and electricity.

The next item, 06, Purchased Services refers

primarily to electricity and things like our cleaning contracts and

snow-clearing contracts for buildings that we maintain.

MR. FRENCH: So, again, it is probably closure

of those buildings?

MS BETTNEY: A combination of closure and some

of the conservation methods that we have employed.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. I have to question the one on

gasoline. Revenue - Provincial, you know, $2,205,000 just -

MS BETTNEY: That is space that we rent, from

which we receive income.

MR. FRENCH: Transportation and Communications:

Why did the government go over Budget by $90,000 in Transportation and

Communications? It went from $68,000 to $158,000 and now, in 1997-1998, we are

going back to $68,000.

MS BETTNEY: You will note in the caption for

the rentals category that it also includes allocation for moving expenses and

minor maintenance. During this past year, we moved the Government Purchasing

Agency to the Fisheries Building, consequently incurring an up-front cost to do

that. However, of course, we did move it from a rental space so there would have

been an offsetting reduction now, in 1997-1998 for our rentals. So the $68,000

allocation for Transportation and Communications reflects a status quo estimate

and the fact that we do not anticipate a major expense in this area, at least

not at this point.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. I am looking at Purchased

Services. We budgeted $357,000 -

MS BETTNEY: That is our rental savings there.

MR. FRENCH: Professional Services, which

buildings and what alterations were done for the $35,000 on page 69.

MS BETTNEY: Page 69? Which number item is it?

MR. FRENCH: We are down to 06, Purchased

Services.

MS BETTNEY: Under Alterations?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: I will have to ask my ADM or Deputy

to comment.

WITNESS: (Inaudible).

MS BETTNEY: We will have to provide you with

those details.

MR. FRENCH: On down to Administration, there is

a reduction in the Salaries and I guess, Terry, you can include that in your

letter to me, if you would?

In the Purchased Services, the Budget amount was

$250,000, over the revised amount, we spent less but I just wonder, you know,

what were these services that we did not lose?

MS BETTNEY: This caption refers to our car

insurance policy; the reduction, I am going to ask the Deputy to comment on the

reason for the actual expenditure being less in 1996-1997.

MR. ABBOTT: The main reason for that is that

the premiums were less for 1996-1997.

MR. FRENCH: Because you were lucky, John?

MS BETTNEY: We would not dare ask why.

MR. ABBOTT: That was the tender price.

MR. FRENCH: Tendered each year?

MR. ABBOTT: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: You are some lucky!

In another life, I used to be in business and I

watched my insurance for three vehicles go from somewhere around $300 or $400 a

year to in excess of $2,000.

Go down to Maintenance of Equipment, again Terry,

there is a Salary thing there, so I will just ask you to send me that one; and

on Supplies, what actions have been taken or will be taken to reduce Supplies by

$105,500?

MS BETTNEY: This caption refers to fuel costs

and it reflects some of the re-organization that we have done in this area with

our maintenance of equipment and an anticipated reduction in actual fuel

associated with this.

MR. FRENCH: Nothing on page 70. On page 71,

there are two Salaries there, one under Administrative Support and one under

Project Management And Design; so Terry, you could supply me the answers for

both of those. One is $192,300 and the other is $43,800.

Under Supplies, why would Supplies be over-budgeted

by approximately $10,000 and Purchased Services over by $9,000?

MS BETTNEY: Do we have the answer to that

specific question among us here? No, we will have to supply it at a later time.

MR. FRENCH: Page 72, at the top of the page,

Administrative Support, which portions of Salaries again will be added to

increase Salaries by $981,800?

MS BETTNEY: Perhaps I should speak to this

item, and it is connected with a couple of others as we go down through the Road

Construction Budget.

The Salary reduction under the revised Budget for

1996-1997 simply reflects the fact that we did $1 million less, worth of work

internally last year in engineering support for our capital projects, and you

will recall that we did have really, a substantially reduced capital Budget as

well last year. You will see as you come down to item No. 48 in the same

category that there was less money, again, recharged to capital projects as a

result of the reduced spending that we had at that time.

When you come to 3.2.03, Improvement And

Construction Of Provincial Roads, you will also see that there is an increase

there in our Road Contracts under Purchased Services and that is tied in with

doing more of the work externally as well. Is there any other point, Deputy,

that we should include with this?

WITNESS: I do not think so.

MS BETTNEY: Those are the three connections

that you need to make on this particular item in our road construction in the

department.

MR. FRENCH: Purchased Services, Minister, under

Improvement And Construction for Provincial Roads, have gone from $6,255,000 to

$17,994,600.

MS BETTNEY: You are looking at our Capital

Program, to all intents and purposes. Last year we had a $6 million Provincial

Roads program and that was the amount that was contracted for that purpose. This

year, that amount is considerably increased and we will be putting out to tender

that amount under the Provincial Roads piece.

MR. FRENCH: So, when will see copies of the

roads that are being -or is that the one that has already been released?

MS BETTNEY: Yes, that has already been released

in full. You are starting to see the tenders appear in the paper over the last

couple of weeks and that will continue over the next two to three weeks. They

should all be released within three weeks.

MR. FRENCH: A fair portion of that is for Roads

for Rail?

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: In Property, Furnishings and

Equipment, this is increased by $48,000. It has gone from $2,000 back up to

$50,000. You know, we budgeted $50,000, we only spent $2,000 and now, we are

back up to $50,000.

MS BETTNEY: And again, we may only spend $2,000

this year, hopefully. However, we simply make an estimate for this purpose of

what will be required when we are managing these particular programs.

MR. FRENCH: Grants and Subsidies, $205,000 was

paid in 1996-1997 but we are not paying it in 1997-1998. Can you just tell me

what that was for?

MS BETTNEY: That refers to some roads that we

were able to transfer. Again, do we have the specifics of that, Terry or John?

I know we have the answer here - it is a question

of how accessible it is. No, okay, I was off track. This one is not pertaining

to the roads transfer. This refers to some brush-cutting that we did in a few

areas of the Province towards the end of last year and we administered it as a

grant to some local associations to conduct on our behalf.

MR. FRENCH: Can I have a list of where that

money was spent and in which communities?

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: There is nothing on page 73. Page

74, under Professional Services there was an allocation for $12,900. We did some

professional services; just quickly, what were they?

MS BETTNEY: That was probably some consultant

fees that we incurred in relation to some of the Trans-Canada Highway work,

either the review of the agreement that we undertook last summer or probably

some very specific area associated with that. I do not think that would have

been the consulting fee for the whole review that we undertook but I would

expect that perhaps there was an isolated project that we asked the consultants

to look at on our behalf.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, can you send me which

consultant that was and why they were paid that money?

Under Land Acquisitions, there is $2,500,000. We

allocated that in 1996-1997 and we have budgeted the same amount in -

MS BETTNEY: That is ongoing land acquisition in

relation to the Trans-Canada projects.

WITNESS: All projects, actually.

MS BETTNEY: All projects, okay.

MR. FRENCH: All projects, so that will be any

land that you might expropriate?

MS BETTNEY: Yes. I would expect, for the most

part in 1997-1998, we are looking at continuing land acquisition in the Goulds

and in Pasadena and there will be others associated with some of the access

roads as well.

MR. FRENCH: And I trust in Conception Bay

South, too, Minister?

MS BETTNEY: Most likely.

MR. FRENCH: That letter I wrote you the other

day. Page 75 -

CHAIR: Okay, we have gone past the agreed time

- we are up to 8:32 p.m. Do you want to break now for fifteen minutes?

MR. FRENCH: Do you know why we are breaking? I

have to get this one the record - it is only because the Chairman wants to get a

smoke, you know that, do you not?

CHAIR: Well, I do, but I also want to make sure

my Committee members get a smoke also.

WITNESS: I have had mine already so you can

carry on.

MR. FRENCH: We cannot do that to you, Ralph.

CHAIR: Well, I have been sitting since 2:00

p.m. today. Do you have any sympathy at all now? Jack you had a point?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I just have to tell you that

I have to leave. I have a meeting at 8:30 p.m. in Flatrock to discuss roads, the

conditions of the roads in Flatrock. I had planned to leave at 8:00 p.m. but it

was so interesting that I had to stay. Pardon?

WITNESS: (Inaudible) while you are gone?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, I am sure my colleague here

will do a fine job. There will be lots of questions asked.

CHAIR: We enjoyed your presence and we

certainly enjoyed your comprehensive input.

MR. J. BYRNE: Before I leave, I would like to

thank the minister and her staff for answering the questions.

MS BETTNEY: You are welcome.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am sure she will be getting a

lot of requests from many members in the House of Assembly in the next little

while, especially now with that extra $5 million that I have my eye set on and I

will be one of them. In the meantime, thank you and everybody over there for

your time.

CHAIR: We will break now for fifteen minutes

and come back, and hopefully Mr. French will get through his questions. We will

come back at 8:50 p.m.

Recess

CHAIR: Order, please!

Now we can get started again.

Mr. French.

MR. FRENCH: Again, on page 75, Alterations And

Improvements To Existing Facilities, there is a change there in the salary

structure. Terry, if you do not have it readily available, you can certainly, on

that letter that you are sending to me, include the salary amount.

Which professional services will or have been

eliminated to save $485,000? That is under Professional Services, Minister.

MS BETTNEY: I am looking at the revised estimate

of $785,000, and I may have to ask Mr. Greenland to comment on that, but it most

likely represents renovations and retrofit that we completed in 1996-1997, and

we are not estimating the same requirement for this current year.

George, is there anything further?

MR. GREENLAND: Just, I guess, a little

clarification. This is a capital account. The breakdown between Salaries,

Professional Services and Purchased Services is basically, at the start of each

year, a guess as to how this is going to be broken out. There are no people

assigned to this in the normal sense. This is one capital account, and the

$300,000 is our guess and again generally done on a percentage basis of the

total capital amount, which is $3.7 million.

MR. FRENCH: Could you send me something, then, on

that $785,000, or the difference, the $485,700, as to where that would have been

spent and why?

MR. GREENLAND: I can tell you where the $785,000

was spent, which would have been part of very specific projects.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

MR. GREENLAND: Those projects will not be the same

projects this year.

MR. FRENCH: No, no, but I would like to know where

the $785,700 went.

MR. GREENLAND: I can tell you some of them now or

I can send it to you, whichever you wish.

MR. FRENCH: No, I would just as soon you put it in

writing.

MR. GREENLAND: Fine.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, under Purchased Services we are

over budget by $385,700.

MS BETTNEY: Which item are you referring to? I am

sorry, I did not catch the caption.

MR. FRENCH: I am down to Purchased Services now,

Minister.

MS BETTNEY: Purchased Services, under Alterations

And Improvements?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: Okay, so that is tied to the same

capital budget that George just referred to; the three are interconnected.

MR. FRENCH: Then, if you would not mind, you can

include that in your letter to me as well.

MR. GREENLAND: We will have to give you a listing

of projects because the point I was making is that Salaries, Professional

Services and Purchased Services, I can tell you where each was spent. The budget

from one year to the next, there is no relationship to it.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

MR. GREENLAND: It is basically kind of a global

allocation and then for bookkeeping purposes, if you wish, we allocate part to

Professional Services, part to Salaries, and the balance is in Purchased

Services, which is the actual renovation work we may do in various buildings,

and it could be anything from a hospital, in which we may be doing work, to this

building, to a college, or so on.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

MR. GREENLAND: So it will be a list of projects on

which we spend our money.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, thank you.

Would you note in there as well for me what was public

tender and what was not?

MR. GREENLAND: Everything over $7,500 would have

been public tendered, and under $7,500 we would have three prices. Most of this,

as a guess, will be well over $7,500. That is in terms of Purchased Services.

Professional Services is outside the Act, as you are probably aware.

MR. FRENCH: Okay.

Page 76, Minister, Air Subsidies: Grants and

Subsidies, has been increased by $200,000 and I would just like to ask why.

MS BETTNEY: This is the Air Subsidies? Is that

what you are referring to, number (10) there?

MR. FRENCH: Yes.

MS BETTNEY: That is the foodlift subsidy for the

Coast of Labrador. We reinstated it towards the end of the last fiscal year, and

consequently, we had a reduced amount to cover the requirements for that period.

We estimate that the cost of operating foodlift subsidy for the full year to be

$390,000.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, and just further down the page

under Airstrips, it says: Professional Services, $15,000 was spent.

MS BETTNEY: The Assistant Deputy is telling me

that we had some consultant work again on one of the airstrips. I believe that

probably pertains to Nain, but I will have Terry confirm that for you.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, and the name of who did that

work, too, Terry, please.

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: On page 77, Supplies have decreased by

$119,900; this is under Ferry Operations, and I am just wondering what they

would have been.

MR. McCARTHY: There was a general reduction in

Supplies in the ferry operations area in trying to manage our supply boat a

little more in terms of everything, from paper towels to washroom supplies,

things in the waiting room and so on.

MR. FRENCH: So, general supplies.

In Purchased Services, there has been a change. This

has been estimated to save $281,600?

MS BETTNEY: Yes. The key area that that reflects

is a decrease in our insurance costs on ferries.

MR. FRENCH: There, as well, the revenue is

$2,188,000 and I just wondered what was its source? Would that be from fees

charged on the ferries?

MS BETTNEY: Yes.

MR. FRENCH: Page 78. Under Ferry Vessels,

Property, Furnishings and Equipment, there has been a reduction of $800,000.

MS BETTNEY: We had allocated in the 1996-1997

Budget a notional amount for the acquisition of a replacement ferry for the

Katharine . We were not successful in obtaining a replacement vessel during

1996-1997 and we have reinstated it as a capital figure in the Budget for this

year. It is a notional amount based on roughly the same capital expenditure, in

the order of about $6 million.

MR. FRENCH: Go down to Administration And Hangar

Facilities; Salaries, there is a $93,300 difference. If you do not have the

answer readily, Terry, you can include that in the Salary ones for me.

Page 79, Salaries have been reduced by $158,800. Again

you could probably in your letter give me that figure. Under Transportation and

Communications, .03, there has been a reduction of roughly $26,000.

MS BETTNEY: I am going to ask Terry to speak to

that. As you will note, it is the same original budget estimate, but it is a

reduction from our actual experience last year.

MR. McCARTHY: Yes, it is a reflection of our

actual experience, and we have parked two Cansos this year, so our travel should

be down from last year. Again, it depends on the type of fire season we will

have.

MR. FRENCH: Under Revenue - Provincial there is

$430,000. There is a decrease of $207,700.

MR. McCARTHY: Again, that is an estimate of

revenue. Sometimes we do go out of the Province with those aircraft. It depends

on the fire seasons in other provinces and how much flying we will do outside

the Province.

MR. FRENCH: Page 80, 5.1.01. Again with the

Salaries it looks like a change there, a decrease of somewhere close to

$200,000. I just wonder what positions have been eliminated and so on. If you

wish, you can include that in your Salaries. The same thing for 5.1.02, the

Supply Centre, Salaries. There is $111,700 there.

MS BETTNEY: Perhaps I can comment on that one.

That reflects the fact that we have closed the supply depot we operated on

behalf of government departments. We have simply maintained a notional amount to

accommodate what we will carry over there, but for the most part we will not be

staffing that function within our department in this year.

MR. FRENCH: Then if you would just carry down a

bit further, Supplies, 5.1.02.04. Last year it was $779,300 and this year there

is nothing budgeted at all. I assume that is because the Centre is closed.

MS BETTNEY: We have closed out the Centre. We will

not be purchasing.

MR. FRENCH: On page 81, Printing and Micrographic

Services. 5.1.03.02. I am just curious. There is an Employee Benefits there of

$1,000. I just wonder what would that be?

MS BETTNEY: My staff inform me that is a

membership fee for one of our employees who is employed with Printing and

Micrographic Services.

MR. FRENCH: Again, in Mail Services, 5.1.04, the

difference. How many positions have been eliminated to effect the reduction in

the Salaries? I guess in Printing and Micrographic Services there is a

difference there, as well, so I would ask questions on both of those, on the

Salaries. That is 5.1.03.01 under Printing and Micrographic Services, and in

Mail Services, 5.1.04.01.

I am just about to the end, Mr. Chairman. Page 82,

Realty Services: There is a reduction there of $100,000 in Salaries.

MS BETTNEY: We have merged two divisions, and that

reflects the decrease in positions as a result of that. We have merged Realty

with Leasing.

MR. FRENCH: Okay. Under the Queen's Printer, in

Salaries, which positions were lost or reduced? There is a difference of

$22,000.

MS BETTNEY: The salary difference that you noted

under the Queen's Printer refers to a position that we moved from this

particular allocation to Government Services and Lands.

MR. FRENCH: Under Purchased Services, Minister,

the government was over budget by $157,000.

MS BETTNEY: There was revised legislation during

last year that increased the requirement for our printing with the Gazette .

It happened mid-year and we did not have time to make an adjustment to the

offsetting revenue so we simply had to absorb the extra cost of printing the

Gazette last year.

MR. FRENCH: Okay and there is revenue there of

$325,000. Could we get an itemized list of account of what sources this revenue

would have come from? Can you provide me with a written list of where this

funding would have come from?

MS BETTNEY: I am going to ask one of the staff to

just comment on what that revenue represents because I am not sure if it is

practical to provide an itemized accounting.

the Newfoundland Gazette plus for any advertising that is placed in the

Gazette or any over-the-counter sales that are made at the Queen's

Printer office.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, you do not need to give me that

in writing now.

The last question - on page 83, Park Operations:

"Appropriations provide for the operation of the C.A. Pippy Park." What effect

will the $100,600 decrease have on the ability of the park to carry out its

operation? Is the user fee a possibility because of the declined subsidy from

government?

MS BETTNEY: I believe that the decline in the

subsidy will be absorbed through increases in the fees associated with golf in

Pippy Park, not within the park as a whole. The park assures me that they should

be able to accommodate this with an adjustment to the golf piece.

MR. FRENCH: I do not play golf.

MS BETTNEY: Me, neither.

MR. FRENCH: Okay, just to conclude then, Minister,

I would like to thank you and your staff for coming here and giving me the

answers to most of the questions, and I am sure your staff will provide me with

the answers that they said they would. It is always nice to deal with the

Minister of Works, Services and Transportation. I find with you, Madam Minister,

that you are very straightforward and when I ask you a question I usually get an

answer. I wish I could say that concerning everybody on your side of the House

but I cannot. I always find with you, that your answers are very

straightforward. You are usually pretty up-front and I do not say that in a

condescending way. I say most sincerely and most seriously, I have found since

you have taken on that department that when I ask you a question I usually get

an answer. I certainly appreciate that from you.

Thank you again and your staff, for coming tonight and

I look forward to receiving the rest of the answers when your staff has the

opportunity to supply them to me.

CHAIR: Thank you, Mr. French.

Are there any more questions?

AN HON. MEMBER: No further questions, Mr.

Chairman, thank you.

CHAIR: I will ask the Clerk to call the subheads,

then, inclusive.

CLERK (E. Murphy): 1.1.01 to 5.3.02.

On motion, subheads 1.1.01 through to 5.3.02 carried.

On motion, Department of Works, Services and

Transportation, total heads, without amendment, carried.

CHAIR: I, too, would like to thank you and your

staff, Minister, for your attendance here tonight. I must say, as Chair, I am

impressed with your in-depth knowledge of your department and how your monies

are spent, and where they are spent. On behalf of the Committee, I thank you.

Good night, and have a safe journey home.

MS BETTNEY: In turn, I thank my staff for doing

the real work in preparing me for this.

Committee adjourned.