• VOL~ 3 • • • • • • • • PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00p.m. - 6:00p.m. MONDAY, JUNE 12, 1978 ·NO. a:{;

• • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4222 PK ., 1 House Leader cou 1 d tell us whether the Premier is coming into the House today? saw the hon. gentleman go by the curtain there a few moments ago. Is the hon. the Premier going to be in his seat for the Question Period,can the hon. gentleman tell us? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: As far as I know the hon. Premier is. And if the hon. gentleman has seen - . SOME HON .. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HICKMAN: - the hon. the Premier within the confines of this hon. House,I would assume that he will be in his seat as soon as he realizes - MR.

NEARY: Hell,maybe I will start off with the hC'n. gentleman then on the line of questioning that I want to get on, Sir, and it has to do with the NBC not allowing a certain television programme that was videotaped by the Premier to go on the air. Has the minister checked out or can he now tell us who the legal advisor to the Premier is in this matter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr . Speaker, that would not be in my purview. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this is - MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary? MR: NEARY: A supplementary, Sir.

This is a matter involving the taxpayers of this Province.· My understanding is, Sir, that the hon. gentleman is the legal advisor to the Premier and to the Crown. " MR. HICKMAN: .MR. NEARY: To the Crown. To the Crown, And in this case, Sir, it involves public .business,so.we are told; if the taxpayers are paying the bill then it has to be public business. Has the Minister of Justice been

• • • • • • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4222 PK - 2 Mr: Neary: consu 1 ted on this matter, and if so, ~1ha t is the minister's advice in this particular case? The hon. the Minister of Justice. MR: SPEAKER: . MR: HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, if I had been consulted by the hon. the Premier in my capacity as the Crown's first law officer,then the legal advice I would furnish the Crown would certainly be .totally and absolutely confidential. But I do not think that this is a matter that falls within the purview of the first law officer of the Crown. MR: NEARY: Well,. Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ..

MR; SPEAKER: A suoolementary. 'MR: 'NEARY: Now that the hon. gentleman, Sir, has returned to his seat, could the hon. gentleman tell us from whom he is taking legal advice , from whom the hon. gentle~an is taking legal advice in connection with a videotaped programme that was supposed, to be aired last Thursday night that could not be carried on provincial wide television because of the language and the libelous and slanderous accu·sations and charges that were made in that programme? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, it is none of the member's business . . MR.

NEARY: And, Mr. Speaker, well perhaps - MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR .. NEARY: - the hon. gentleman can tell me if this is any of· our business, who is paying the expenses of having this programme videotaped, and the legal expenses and so forth involved? Are the taxpayers of the Province ·p~ying for it ,or is it being paid for by the Tory Party? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER'MOORES: That remains to be seen exactly what the issue is, Sir . MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR; NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr, Speaker. A supplementary.

Wou 1 d the hon. the Premte.r be prepared to tab 1 e the contract that was si9ned by Mr. Gary Callahan,on·behalf of the taxpayers of this Province,·and NBC Television? Would the Premier table that contract, so we can all have a look at it and see.what it is?

• • • • • • ·- • • • • Jurie 12, 1978 Tape 4222 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER.MOORES: I did not know there was a contract signed, Mr. Speaker, - MR:. NEARY: PREMIER MOORES: No, no! - but as there was no programme I assume that the contract is not very relevant. MR: NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Even though there was no programme, Sir, there were, I am told,legal expenses involved. and also expenses involved in having the programme videotaped, Hould the hon. gentleman inform the House who is paying these expenses?

Is it the Tory party of the taxpayers of this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: When the time comes, Mr. Speaker, for that bill to be paid, whoever will pay it, if it is the people's money, of course, this House will be advjsed . might say that the libel action that is being taken by me against several people are personal matters and not the bu~in~ss of this House. 'MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. Would the hon. gentleman answer this question,or the Minister of Justice if he is in a position, Sir.

Would not such charges and accusations and slanderous statements and libelous statements made in the fifteen minute programme, would they not constitute slander, Sir, even though the prograrrrne was not shown? The fact that it was videotaped and people saw the videotape, would that not constitute, Sir, a breach ·of the privilege of this House'?· Or a violation of the Criminal Code,inasmuch as the Premier had videotaped this -it had been shown to other people -and charges of slander can be laid against the hon. gentleman? MR; . SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier, ·PREMIER MOORES' Mr.

Speaker, I might say ri.ght now that even though 1t was not aired on CJON, the fact is that the content, .

• • • • e • • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape No. 4223 NH - 1 P!'.E~l!ER r:OOR.ES: plus.: other material, will be made public outside this House and not inside this Houce, seeking the immunity of it, and if anyone thinks they are libelled I welcome the case • :1R. NEARY: HR. SPEAKER: ~!R. NEARY: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary question. A supplementary.

In view of the fact that very serious charges and allegations and slanders and libellous statements have been made in this programme, would the Premier not agree that this type of statement, whether it is made inside or outside the House, would interfere or prejudice any police investigation that might be going on at the present time· into this whole matter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREHIER rlOORES: I certainly would not think so, Mr. Speaker, certainly not as much so as some of the other statemer,ts being made by the hon. member ir. t"his House. HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, that is not parliamentarv.

A supplementary,· Sir. Now would the hon. gentleman, Sir, give us some indication - the hon. gentleman said that the information will be l:lade available -1.;el1 would the hon. gentleman who is going to pay for this political information? Will it be paid for by the taxpayers of this Province or will it be paid for by the Tory Party? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Premier. PR.EHIER :-lOOR.ES: Mr. Speaker, I am not exactly clear on the question. I think I answered it once before.

The one thing I will say is that as far as the slanderous statements are concerned and libel is concerned, I am sure the hon. member 1-till have plenty of opportunity on the witness stand to back up the statements he has nade in this House with immunity. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, then the hon. gentleman for St. John's 1-lest •

• • • • • • •e ___ _ • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape No. 4223 N}! - 2 :1R. h"EARY: I must s~y for the benefit of the hon. gentleman, Sir, I t-tould be very happy to avail of that opportunity. The hon. gentleman, Sir, made a ministerial statement in this !louse a couple of weeks ago that h~ had instructed his lai·.'Yer and it was urgent, it was going to be done that day, that libel charges be taken against a :1r. Davidson. I uould like to ask the Premier if these libel charges have yet been laid? J-IlL SPEAKER: The hon. Premier . ?REUER ~.;QORES: The anslfer is yes, ~r. Speaker.

I do not knm~ if the writ has been issued or not because there is some difficulty _in locating !1r. Davidson, and with some of the hon. member's other colleagues • :1R. NEARY: }!r. Speaker, in case the hon. member is not aware of it, Sir - PREMIER HOORES: Order, please! I thi:1k I had ir.di.cated I ~ould recognize the hon. gentleman frorn·St. John's West next . The hon. member for St. John's I< est. DR. KITCHEN: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed towards the Premier, in view of the fact that the Minister of ~lunicipal Affairs and Housing is not present.

It has been reported that this government proposes to support a proposal that would increase the rents of people in subsidized housing by as much as fifty per cent in the next four or five years and that this is the official position of the government of this Province and that the Minister of Municipal Affairs has gone to Toronto to support this position. Could the Premier confirm or deny, or elucidate to us lfhat is the position of this Province 1dth respect to increases in subsidized rentals in this Province? }ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MnORES: Mr.

Speaker, there has been no decision taken on this-matter. There has been a federal-provincial conference that has discussed this and many other proposals for quite some time now •

• • • • - • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape No. 4223 W,-1 - 3 PRID!IER :mORES : The Minister of Hunicipal Affairs and Housing is in Toronto to discuss it 1but there definitely has not been any decision or position taken as yf.t, MR. SPEAKER: ~. RIDEOUT: The hon. member for Baie Verte - White Bay. ~-!r. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Labour and Hanpower.

In vie~1 of the fact that the ILO, International Labour Organization, soon to be convened in convention at Geneva will be asked to consider a resolution calling for a total ban on the mining and us£ of asbestos fibres; and requesting that a substitute bf sought for acbestos, could the minister tell the House t·lhat position this Province has taken on this .resolution? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Labour· .and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member may know that the position will be taken by the federal government. We have been invited as an observer and we have no status as yet.

Any information we.have on that I will undertake to tzble for the hon. member within the next day or two. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. RIDEOUT: Yes, as the minister said, I know that Canada will be represented at this ILO Convention by the federal government, I want to ask the minister whether the mini~ter's department has made any sort of representation on this important matter to the government of Canada which ~-1ould tend to reflect the position of this Province and the position that this Province would like to see Canada as a country taJ.-.e on this ·particular resolution? ~. SPEAKER: MR.

ROUSSEAU: The hon. Minister of Labour and ManpoNer. !1r. Speaker, our concern,of course, is with the points that the hon. member raises in respect to asbestosis and the problems arising from the mining of asbestos, Hhether it has been conveyed officially or not I cannot recall. I tri.ll ·undertake ·to delve out any correspondence we have, if any, If

• • • • e • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tapa ;;o. 4223 ~:R. ROUSSEAU: not certainly I think the federal govern .. ent should be aHare of the position 1~e have taken. I have communicated with 1!::·. ~lunro on the question of occupational health and safety, whether we have an official position or not, or an unofficial position,I will have to undertake to find out for the :nember .

• • • • • • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4224 PK MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR: RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, obviously occupational health and safety is not to be confused with the mining of asbestos, it is just one of the many issues that you would be concerned about 11ith occupational health and safety.

But I 1vonder if the minister could tell me whether or not the Government of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador has conferred with any of the other provincial governments of Canada which could tend to be defined as .producing orovinces,like nuehec and Ontario and Newfoundland.- those are three that come to mind - British Columbia would. be four, so that some sort of co-operative representation could be made to federal authorities with the hope that the federal position reflected at the ILO Convention would be reflecting of the position of the Newfoundland Government? MR.

SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: Yes, we have, Mr. Speaker. There have been meetings going on for quite some time now on the whole question of occupational health and safety and specific points in it. l·t has been done, unfortunately from the point of the question,at the officials' level for the most part. l~e had a meeting last January, I believe it was, with Labour ministers; at that point the AIB was the focus of attention.

Unfortunately we did not have an opportunity to talk as Labour ministers about the questions of occupational health and safety,which we should have had the opportunity to do. But,like I said,it has been done at the Officials' level in a number of meetings, and I ~1ill undertake to get the position as enunicated by the officials who represented the ministers at these meetings as soon as I can get them. MR~ RIDEOUT: MR: SPEAKER: . MR. RIDEOUT: A final supplementary. A final supplementary . Mr. Speaker, thank the minister for undertaking to get some information for us.

I wonder if the minister could tell the House whether the Provincial Government has given any thought to, or whether they plan to take any action whatsoever to help comiteract a·ny such move by an i.nternational group.to have a particular mineral banned{

• • • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4224 PK ~ 2 MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. ROUSSEAU: We certainly would have to take every consideration of it. I would like to be at the meeting, but obviously if you go to a meeting in Geneva everybody thinks you are off on a holiday. never had one in my four years as minister. I would like to because, I think, these and other points that are discussed may not be relevant to the. Province of Newfoundland,within the context of Canada, within the context of t!1e Internati ana 1 Labour Organization.

I think, they are very important meetings . I have had an invitation as minister to observe at the meeting. Every year the federal government;who are the official spokesman, I think, invite two ministers rotating across Canada to actually sit with a delegation. I have been invited,· in the next week or ten days the meetings are actually being he 1 d, to represent the Province as an observer: unfortunately I am not going to be able to do so. But we would certainly want to give consideration to the banning of any particular mining ingredient of the mining industry of this Province, indeed, in this country.

And I would think all ministers would share , all across this country, that concern. And We will certainly undertake to check it out, 1 ike I say, for the han. member in the next couple of days with the officials on the agenda for the meetings and the position taken by the federal government who we would hope would reflect the feelings of the provinces as well. I will undertake to get the position and give it to the member in the next few days .. "MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Eagle River followed by Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR.

STRACHAN: Now since the Minister of Mines and Energy is not_ here, a question to the Premier . I wonder if the Premier could update us on any negotiations or status of negotiations concerning the Gull Island development due to the whole economic depression, the depressed area around· Goose Bay and Happy Valley, and also the whole Province? wonder what the situation is concerning any possibility of starting work on any part of the development, including the woodcutting)arid the woodclearing or ~ny development of any part of it?

• • • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4224 PK - 3 MR;. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier • PREMIER MOORES: Mr. Speaker, not a great deal more than,I think, it was last week we discussed here in the House, The situation is that negotiations are going on with LCDC, the federal government, regarding the Lo~ter Churchill Development Corporation. The Hydro officials have been meeting with them and those meetings have been going quite well. Equally there are the two other !]roups set up, one to look at the industrialization and industrial usage of power from the site to be used in Labradorand on the Island.

And the other discussions that will have to take place fairly shortly as well are with Quebec to get their attitude regarding the situation.- In the immediate short-term basically, the clear-cutting is as of much concern to us as it-is to anybody, and we have been in touch with Mr. Jamieson regarding the possibility of trying to get the cost-sharing of that project up to 50-50.

Now what happened on that particular project was that there was so much per man job, and I think the maximum figure was $10,000, but that did not take into consideration-actually that would not have been half of the year's earnings of the people in that circumstance. ~!hat it did not take into consideration was the cost of setting up camps, all the other cos.ts of material and that. sort of thing. What it boiled down to was there would be a $4 million federal 9overnment inputof a$14 million cost over two years, and that would be $2 million a year •

• • • • • • • • • ·~ June 12, 1978 Tape 422S EC - 1 PREMIER MOORES: Now regarding that, that was the same as the federal Department of Manpower would provide for just about any job creation activity of its type; therefore, we did not think there was anything very special about it. We have since gone back through Mr. Jamieson and directly to DREE asking if they could participate in some of the funding to bring it up to a SO-SO basis and as soon as we have an inclination in that regard we will go ahead. MR. STRACHAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. STRACHAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary.

Could the Premier inform us of the current status of negotiations on the situation concerning the Quebec/Newfoundland and Labrador agreements or discussions and talks on the whole hydro question in Labrador? We have not heard anything more since a number of months ago when Premier Levesque was down here, and everything has been very quiet. I wonder what the present state of negotiations is? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: The state of negotiations: we have been in touch with Mr.

Levesque~ or I have, Mr.Speaker, to the effect that as soon as we have worked out a proposal from the federal government on the Lower Churchill Development Corporation then we will be going back to see the Quebec Government and not before. MR. STRACHAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. STRACHAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A final supplementary. Could the Premier indicate, in ani negotiations up to now and discussions with Mr. Le~esque, whether there is continued talk about joint development of the rivers? Since we regard this very much as a leverage for other developments to go ahead, could he

• • • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4225 EC - 2 MR. STRACHAN: tell us exactly whether there has been talk on these lines or whether we have decided to have a firm position on the joint development and exactly how does he envisag~ using this as a lever in his talks with Mr. Levesque?· HR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER MOORES: It is a bit early to say exactly how it will be used, but obviously, Sir, this is one that the Quebec Government is very interested in.

They do not plan. to develop those rivers until sometime starting in the mid 1980's to initiate the development of those three rivers really, of significance and there are five rivers ·there. We have already advised Quebec that we would not be interested in negotiating any agreement regarding the flooding of~e headwaters without renegotiating the whole energy picture in Labrador, and that would include not only the reopening of the Upper Churchill contract but also participating in at least the sales if necessary of Muskrat, Gull Island, Lobstick.

It also would include such things as the Romaine diversion being put back through the present system in Upper Churchill. But they have been told that those three rivers will not be part of negotiations until we look at the whole energy policy of Labrador as a total package. MR. SPEAKER: I have indi~ated I will recognize next the bon. gentleman from Burgeo ~Bay d'Espoir, followed by the hon. gentlemen from Terra Nova, Conception Bay South and LaPoile. MR. SIMMONS: Mr •. Speaker, a question or so for the Minister of Tourism (Mr. Morgan).

I have here the accommodation guide which his department has published, I believe, in the last few days. Perh~ps as a preliminary,

• • • • • • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4225 EC - 3 MR. SIMMONS: the minister would indicate to the House since the publication itself does not, where this was printed and more particularly, who designed the pamphlet, because I have some questions to follow on that. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the ~inister of Tourism. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure where they were printed. I know the road maps were done this year for the first time in Newfoundland by Robinson Blackmore.

I am not too sure, but I am also of the opinion that th~se brochures were done. as well by a local firm, but I can undertake to get the information. I am not sure myself . MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: My real question relates to the content of this publication, and I suggest all members have a look at the maps in particular, because they are very, very very misleading, and an amateur job would be putting it mildly. I say to the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Cross) that you would never know he had a district. There is no road through it.

There is no road to sf. Lawrence, no ·road to Isle aux Morts and Rose Blanche, for example, and I could go on. But the one that concerns me, of course, is that there is no highway shown into Bay d'Espoir at all, no route South of Grand Falls at all into Bay d'Espoir or into the Harbour Breton area, and if it were just an isolated area where one road .were left out one .could understandi.but I ~ay to the Minister of Fisheries, the St. Mary's area, around Branch, for exampl~, and so on is not shown on the map, but also a number of major areas, Mr. Speaker. This is in the accommodation guide. AN RON. MEMBER: MR.

SIMMONS: Newfoundland and Labrador . What is the title of the map? Well, the title of the map is

• • June 12, 1978 Tape 4225 EC - 4 AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) of the publication? MR. SIMMONS: The Newfoundland Accommodations • Guide - 1978 put out by the Department of Tourism. And the mistake, I say to the minister, is repeated again in the sectional maps. You have a map for various parts of the Province and the mistakes are inevitably;repeated throu~hout • there. The first question to the minister obviously is whether he is aware of that and,more importantly, ~hether he will consider • • ·- • • • •

• • • • e • • • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape No, 4226 NM - 1 !-!F .• Sn1XONS: withdra,Ving this publication'?'lecause it is extre:nely misleading, Hr. Speaker, and it is not a case of an isolated error. It is craomed full of very serious omissions and distortions and ,.;hen I say distortions, Mr. Speaker, I refer the minister to page t•.-'enty of the map •,;here they made an effort to put in the Bay d'Espoir roac!, but it wound up somel~here over in Fortune Bay· It started in Grand Falls but it ended up some,vhere c!mm in Fortune Bay, a good forty or fifty miles east of the )lead of Bay d'Espoir.

Now understand what we are dealing '"ith here, Hr. Speaker, 111e .11re dealing trlth a guide which cit-1s various route numbers for people to find their way to various hotels and so on and so forth. And if the route is in there, for example 320, and then the fellow goes to look for 320 on the map and cannot find it, <Tell, the document is not only useless, ::r. Speaker, it is ~orse than useless, it is misleading. It is going to be very frustrating to the people concerned.

And I ask the minister, one, whether he was aware before now but, more importantly, w!1ether he will undertake to Hith'draw the publication and to replace it with a correct publication or nothing at all for that matter? It t~ould be better to have nothing out. The minister must be looking at last year's - mt. NORGAN: :m. Sil1:10NS: not-r, :·'R. ~ORGAl~: Hhat are you doing? !{R. S!M:10NS: (Inaudible) question (inaudible), Yes, but I= talking about thisyear's You are after asking a question. You are asking a question? I am asking if the minister is aware of these errors? .He need not get his back up, Mr. Speaker.

He probably did not design it. It is a mi~leading publication. Is I

• • • • • • ·- • • • June 8, 1978 Tape No. 4226 l:l! - 2 !·!R. SH!!10NS: the minister prepared to have the publication withdra'm and replaced by a corrected publication? MF.. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Tourism. !·!R. HORGAL'l: 1\Tell, !1r. Speaker, the hon. gentleman is confused, because this is last year's '77, and the new one this year, ,.;hich I do not have a copy of right now, is updating the places to 'stay in t~e Province. It is no indication at all it is going to be used as an official road map.

The .. official road map is a separate publication altogether from any leaflet as to ,.;here to stay in the Province. Actually the road itself, last year and again this year, is primarily to show the TCH from Port aux Basques to St. John's and it is not a road map of the Province.

But in regards to saying that it is information that is misleading, that is not correct because the'information is improved over last year ( and shows l'.dditional places to stay in the Province. ·And that is the main purpose of that brochure, where to stay in Ne,.;foundland, not showing how to. get to where to stay but places ,.,here to stay. The road map itself is the guideline, which is a separate publication. ~. SPEAKER: A supplementary. lfR. S I:-!MONS : Mr. Speaker, the publication is subtitled, Your Guide to Hotels, ~·totels, etc. If I understand the word •guide'it would tell you how to get there.

Look, the minister did not understand me. I am m.;are that there is an official road map. It is right here. And I am aware that in a small publication, a small size like this, a small page like this, you cannot put everything, Eut the minister's submission that only the TCH and so on is show of course is not true because a number of the secondary and tertiary roads are shown. For instance,great care was taken to sh01.; all the roads on the Bonavista Peninsula, ~1r. Speaker, Hhich the TCH,I submit,does not

I June 8, 1978 Tape No. 4226 NH - 3 • MR. SIMMONS : go to 1 _although the member does represent that particular part of the Province. ;-tR. MORGAN: (Inaudible) . }!R. SII1!-!0NS: 1-7ell some of them on ,the Burin Peninsula. • Xr.

Speaker, look I am representing in this case a number of thousand of people in Bay d'Espoir. l!y colleague represents se•1eral other thousand on the Connaigre Peninsula and these are t~e ones I arn addressing myself to. t-7e are talking about • a major hight-•ay dmm there and I could be making my comments about Bonavista North or others, but I am asking about this one in particular,and the minister cannot dismiss it but some quick reference to the highways map. I say again, Hr. Speaker - • l1R. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

I must point out that it is necessary during this period for sur-missions to be questions and answers and not debate, and only such information as is necessary should prefix the question. • The -hon. member for Burgeo -Bay d'Espoir • MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, l1r. Speaker. But I refer the minister again to page t've_nty of this year's publication li'hich has a road, I suppose the Bay d 'Espoir Higi1way, except it is in the wrong place. It vinds up about forty or fifty. miles east of where it should. It 1;inds up on the ~est side of Fortune Day, instead of in Bay d'Espoir. Now that is misleading information.

And I ask the minister, • in view of the fact that this is rifled t:uough with a lot of misleading _information, will he undertake to have the information corrected, probably by withdratving the publication altogether and having a new publication put out witL the correct • information· in it. That is the question I am asking the minister; will he do that? I am aware of the road map and all that 1 but will he undertake to lvithdraw this misleading information before it does any further damage? • HR. SPEAKER: The hon. J-linister of Tourism. I e'

• • • • e • • ·- • • • • · June 8, 1978 Tape No. 4226 1~·1 - 4 MR. • ~\ORGAN: No, :·!r. Speaker, because there is actually no ·misleading information. l-!R. SU2l0NS: I have just shown you there is. MR.. MORGA.'< : The fact that the brochure happene·d to contain a map of Ne~·lfoundland, this brochure, Where to Stay, because of the size of the brochure itself, it ~ill clearly point out you cannot list each and every place and small road around the Province, that is the reason why there is a separate road map. Hhen this brochure is issued to tourists, it is issued with ather information as 1~ell.

• • • • • • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4227 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: rn fact, it is a tourist information kit, and in that kit is an official road map with this information. Now if there is~ for example, lack of information regarding places to stay in certain areas like Bay d'Espoir and in other areas of the Province not mentioned here, well, that we can update maybe, but not in regards to a road map within the leafle~ itself showing all roads,because the purpose is not to have a road showing where to get to a certain place - that is the road map's role.

The main role of this brochure is places listed and where they are located 1 but not guides to get to them. But if there are places not listed in this brochure which are now available to tourists, I will be only too pleased to take the informati~n and pass it along and look at the possibility of updating this leaflet. But unless that is lacking now there is no need to either withdraw or to update. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the minister obviously does not understand the purpose of this booklet or what it sets out to do.

I refer him, for example, to page 20, the map of the Avalon" and I checked it against the official road map and it seems to me every single road - I do not mean street - but every single secondary and tertiary and primary road is listed there and it seems to me that the intent of those ten or so insert maps is to do the very thing the minister is saying they are not surposed to do, that is, give direction to the tourist. Now my real question, Mr. Speaker, while it is done for mo•t areas of the. Province, it. is done very inaccurately for two or three areas and the one that

• • • • -· • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4227 EC - 2 MR. SIMMONS: I am concerned about affects my own district, but I could refer him to Bonavista North, for example, where on the sectional map, I say to the member, there is no reference to any road around from Gander up through Indian Bay and up around Wesleyville and that area, no map at all.

And I am asking the minister if, in view of the very misleading nature of this., will he undertake- he can call it 'update', whatever words he wants to use I. am not concerned - but will he undertake in the interests of those people who operate motels up in Indian Bay and Musgrave Harbour and Wesleyville and up 'around that Loop Road and in Bay d'Espoir and Harbour Breton, will he for the sake o£ those people put out a new publication or update this one, as he wishes,so that the tourists and other people travelling in the Province have the correct information which they do not have in this publication? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Tourism. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, of course it is always ~f the utmost importance for tourists to get all the information they possibly can.

It may be a bit - well, I would not say a bit, I would say totally impossible to have the brochures changed now because they are all printed and they were arranged over the past Winter and last Fall, but I would like to point out to the hon. gentleman and others who may be concerned about this, if the drawings of maps and areas shown are n~t giving the full details with regard to roads leading ~o where, I can make note of the fact that this year for the first time that all major intersections in fact,practically all intersections because we are calling .tenders in the very near future for eight information plazas and these information plazas are separate from information chalets; they will be like a large

• • June 12, 1978 Tape 4227 EC - 3 MR.

MORGAN: billboard, like a road map on the highway where a tourist can drive up to the intersection • of the T.C.H., places like the Bonavista North area and Bay d'Espoir~and they can see on these information plazas road maps showing where the road leads .from the T.C.H. and the communities mentioned as well on these roads and places • to stay accordingly • So whether or not the brochure is overlooking some information regarding detailed road inlets to Bay d'Espoir, I am confident of one thing, that all places to stay in Bay d'Espoir are listed in this directory, Hut if there are some details with regard to road maps in the booklet itself, the road map can be referred to.

It is too late to change these information ·booklets now, this year anyway and also the fact that by the end of the • summer we will have these information plazas along the T.C.H • on locations leading off the T.C.HJ-~ntersections - MR. SIMMONS: You will be surprised, 'Jim'. People will not stop by the side of the road to rearl these signs. MR. MORGAN: The hon. gentleman can draw his own c·onclusions. lolait until one is built first. MR. SIMMONS: They are tHo pieces of plywood. MR. MORGAN: How do you know? There is none built yet . • MR. SIMMONS: I have been told by your deputy minister. MR.

MORGAN: There is none.built yet. Mr. Speaker, these informat~on plazas is a programme that is being sponsored and assisted by the federal government and • we will be building eight of these this year on the - MR. SIMMONS: (Inaudible) MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, could I answer the question without being interrupted? • MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! •

• • • • • • • • • • June 1-2,1978 Tape 4227 HR. HORCh~: I am trying to give the Fouse some information. It is important to all members to knet~ what is going on with regard to Tourism. ;:r,., S. ~IEARY:-··----­ HR. ~!ORGA,'<: not keep quiet. HR. S. NEARY: MR. 1-\0"lGAN: (Inaudible) .Sit det·m . I lme1~ that 'jackal' could 'Jackal' is not parliamentary. }~r. Speaker, these information plazas will assist.substantfally the traveller on the T.C.H. and the tourist will be obtaining additional information over and . above - )·-!R. S • NEARY : 1rn.. SPEAKER: Yahoo! Order, please!

It has come to my attention, or at least I am informed the hon. gentleman called another bon. gentleman a yahoo! HR. '!OF.C:t\!'1: No, !!r. Speaker, a jackal.

• • • • e • • • • •• June 12,1978 .Tape No.4228 AH-1 HR. SPEAKER: A jackal. Well,perhaps it may be just as well to put jackal in the same category - MR. MORGAN: A jackal makes more noise than a yahoo. MR. SPEAKER:· I meant by putting it in the same category not from the point of view of designating the amount of noise it makes,but from the point of view of with<:!rawing it. MR.W.ROWE: I withdraw, Mr. Speaker. I withdraw. ORDERS OF THE DAY HR. HICKl1AN: Order i. MR; SPEAKER: Order I,the adjourned debate on the sub-amendment to the Address in Reply • The hon. member for Fogo adjourned the debate, SOME liON.

ME1BERS: Hear, hear! CAPT, WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak on the subject before the House at the present time and dealing with the Speech from the Throne,! feel as if I am somewhat out of date because when we recall that speech was made on l1arch 6th , a long time has elapsed before we have .had an opportunity to really have a discussion or a debate on that important document. It is a great pity, Mr.

Speaker, that this is so because I think this is the time or in the area where every member, each member of this House,would want to speak because it is the only opportunity which gives the latitude to deal with many of the problems which effect each member Is district. I would be very disappointed. Mr. Speaker. if we did not hear from every member of the House regarding what the speech did and did not contain. But, Sir, as is customary I would like to congratulate the mover and the seconder to the Address in Reply.

The mover,the hon. member for Ferryland (Mr.Power),was very glowing in his terms and took great pride in telling the House of the great things which have happened in that district over the past few years .Butr suppose, Mr. Speaker, this is the consequenct" 'f having t;-,;o or three or four by-elections in the one 'district within the past two years. and all the goodies that were possible to pass out,of course,were handed out in that district • ._

• • • • e • • ·- • • • • June 12,1978 Tape No. 4228 AH-2 CAPT.WINSOR: HOwever, I think the hon. member deserves a bit of credit. He fought in that district many times and failed once or twice. I believe he is the only member that I can think of that can confirm what Sir Winston Churchill once said to Hr. Fishman, I believe, who wrote a book entitled Darling Clementine. Darling Clementine,of course~ . was Sir Winston 1 s wife.

They '~ere discussing politics and Sir Winston said,~My darling,politics is somewhat like war and it is exciting,but it can be just as dangerous.Although in war one can get killed only once but in politics one can get killed many times," Now the hon. member for Ferryland (Mr.Power) I think suffered political defeat on more than one occasion,but he had the nerve and the audacity to get back and fight those elections up there until he finally won a legitimate seat in the House of Assembly • MR. RIDEOUT: lie had to fight his own party. CAPT. WINSOR: That is part of the fight and that is part of the war.

However,the hon. member for Naskaupi (Mr.Goudie) I think must have mustered all of the courage that one could muster to stand on his feet and speak in glowing terms of that document.because, Sir, he,unlike the member for Ferryland (Mr;Power) has certainly not shared the prosperity and the activity and the spending of the money of government which his colleague did,

I • • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4229 Capt. E. Winsor: Mr. Speaker, because that hen. member has had one of the most depressing districts within this Province, within this past five years, A people who had their hopes built on great things found the whole foundation shattered and foundered­ the cancellation of the woods operation, the inactivity of the PK ~ 1 Lowe\ Churchill followed by, of course, the closing out of the Bases.

There is no district that I can think of, and I know that district very well, there is no district that I can think of which has had so much discouragement, disillusionment and disappointment as the di~trict of Naskaupi. Sir, it is not a healthy situation. And was quite concerned the other day when the han. member spoke in, do not know whether it was in this debate or some other any way, when he stated that 25 percent of the people in that district are now unemployed. Now, Mr.

Speaker, that is a very serious and discouraging thing to find ~lithin·a small district,25 per cent, and you must exclude Churchill Falls from that, and you are thinking of the radius of Happy Valley to North West River, Mud Lake and North West River, and in that small area to find that there ·are 25 per cent of the people unemployed is a very serious matter. But, Mr.

Speaker, getting back to the Throne Speech, and I have here a copy of the Throne Speech and of the Budget Speech, two very important documents, the Throne Speech, of course, outlines the government's policy of what it is going to do in the ensuing year. And while I have the utmost respect for the office ·from which the Speech comes,.I cannot at thesame time refrain from stating that it ~1as a very disappointing Speech. And I will assure you, Mr. Speake.r, that I am not critical for the sake of being critical, nor am I critical because I am in Opposition .

I am critical because the . government has fa i.l ed to come up with or it has failed in its abi 1 ity to provide the countryor this ProvinCe with any genuine policies dealing with the very serious problems which face this Province. today", Now, Sir, the other document, the Budget Speech, of course, contains the information and points out to us the financial

• • • • • • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4229 PK ~ 2 Capt. E. Winsor: state of the Province. SOME HON:MEMBERS: Hear, hear! CAPT: E. l~INSOR: And I must say, Mr. Speaker, that a vast majority of the people of this Province find themselves very disappointed_. They are very critical of the document. They are critical because of the contents of that document. And as one walks and talks and goes around this Province,it is easy to get from the neople their comments relating the state of confusion, disillusionment, discouragement, and disappointment. When we find, Mr.

Speaker, a Province with the heaviest taxes in all of Canada today, we find in that document another increase in the sales tax bringing it to 11 per cent. Thanks to ~he graciousness of our federal government it is now down to 8 per cent. But can you imagine, Mr. Speaker, in a Province like Newfoundland we are paying 11 per cent sales tax, 11 per cent sales tax: Mr. Speaker, that is quite a substantial tax, especially on the wage earners of this Province .

• • • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 19 78 Tape 4230 CAPTAIN HIC<SOR: !·!r. Speaker, when we on this side of the House were in pov1er we t<ere continously being criticised by the P .C.'s at that time, I do not kno1-1 how many members are oye.r .. ~here now but I think- yes, there is the hon. member for St. John's Centre (Hr. A. :!urphy) and - AN HON. 1-!EHBF.R: There are three over there. CAPTAIN WI~SOR: TI1~re are three over the~e, I am excluding the hon. the Speal~er.

Hot-rever, t·7e were continuouslv being critised because that previous administration · naa' put this Province close to $1 billion in debt 1 ~ l billion in debt when the present administration took over. That was an alarming debt as far as the Opposition of that day was concerned. Hovever, Xr. Speaker, we find today after a little more than six uears of administration by the present eovernment,we find ourselves $2.5 billion in debt, tv7o and a half times as much as the previous government and what have we to show· for it. Now, Hr.

Speaker, .1ust let us do a .little comparison to see what the former administration did with that $1 billion in comparism to what this present government has done tvith $2.5 billion. M I travel around this Province I am certainly not ashamed or do I hold my head low when I.go around this Province today and see the things that we of that administration had accomplished with so little money . . SO:·!E !lON. }!EMBERS: Hear, hear! CAPTAIN WINSOR: lve,the administration of that day, Hr.

Speaker, broke the curse of isolation in this Province, provided roads to almost every community tvithin the Province, lin!dng up roads 1-1here no roads had existed: providing electricity where nothing but darkness and kerosene oil lamps were there before - l·ffi •. S • ~iEARY : CAPTAIH WINSOR: . Building fish plants. - fish plants

• • • • • • ·- • • • • !une 12, 19 78 Tape 4230 DW - 2 HR. NEARY: Schools and hospitals. Clll'TAPl HINSOR: - schools and hospitals. You name it, }\r. Speaker, and as you go around the Province today·you can pinpoint thel!l all but t!::tere are very feV7 that you can say tiere constructed or provid.ed by the present government. So what monuments are th~ present government's?, What momunents are they going to leave? ~!R. NEARY: Padlocks on the doors •. CAPTAI1< WINSOR: 1./e see a lot of industries closed dmm. Closed, no work, workers laid off, no one seems to care too much, but, :rr.

Speaker, the people of t!::tis Province are beginning to take note • One time in 1972/1973 1 after the change of government,it was a:lmost embarrassing for someone like myself ~~ho had served in that former administration to go around and see so many of your friends - whom you thought tJere good solid tiberals-no,they used to shy away from you. It was embarrassing to meet them, they had turned P.C., they had gone not• for a government who tvas going to do the things that we could not do. }!R • S • NEARY : Not instant coffee, instant P .c.'s. CAPT AU! 1HNSOR: Instant P.C.'s. 3ut, :\r.

Speaker, the scene has changed today.You travel through this country today and it is almost as embarrassing the other t.;ay. people who had once come to you and said;Boy, ve t-~ere sorry we could not follm~ the Liberals any longer;' they are coming back to you no<Y and saying 'Oh, "hat a mistake <ve made, ••hat a mistake we made.' llR. S. NEARY: . CAPTAIN 1./H!SOR: Tory times are hard times. Oh, yes, without a doubt Tory times are hard times ,·ahrays have been, all down through Newfoundland's political history. Unfortunately that has been so •

• June 12, 1978 Tape 4230 DH - 3 • CAPTAIN HINSOR: Jlm~ever, ltr. Speaker, the serious problems 1•e have torlay are among the most important ~nes and the one outstanding to me is unemployment • • Unemployment. has a very pshychological effect on people . • • • ·- • · . •• • ' •. ,(

• • • • • • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4231 PK ._ 1 Capt. Hinsor: and, Mr. Sneaker, I am sure !,like ot.her members of the Opposition and perhaps ~f the whole House, it is very disturbing to me to get telephone calls from people looking for work, get letters day after day:can you help me get work?' I had a call over the weekend from a father of three children, one in university, the first time in twenty-three years, he said, without work. He has one son getting out of university, no work. Now what a disaster within that household!

What a psychological !ffect it is going to have on that student, on that father, Mr. Speaker, and on the mother, because they are faced today with what they have never been faced with before. And it was interesting to note the other day when the member for the Strait of Belle Island (Mr. Roberts) compared the unemployment percentage from 1971, 1972, to 9 per cent at the maximum, to today's unemployment rate of 17 per cent and over, and in one district we have 25 per cent. Mr.

Speaker, there is nothing that will destroy a person's will to live like idleness, and the government does not seem to be too much concerned. At least, they are not concerned enough to create any real employment. I am surprised that the Minister of Manpower has not been on his feet in this session and having a full-scaled debate on unemployment. But no, Mr. Speaker; we sit quietly by and expect tomorrow will bring a better day. But, Sir, that will .not come unless there are plans, and there must be plans to create employment in this Province. AN HON. MEMBER: . CAPT L HINSOR: lot of our people. They do not care.

Beca~se, Sir, it is tearing the·life out of a have had calls from people, from ~arents who have had their son or daughter leaving the university, out lying around the house, no work, demoralizing. They are leaving all of the schools and the trade colleges, and the university, Mr. Speaker, you know, some times it is difficult, it is difficult to give an answer. As a matter of fact,that is the toughest job I have had since have been in politics, and it is more pronounced thi.s year than have seen i.t in my twenty-two-odd years serving in this han. House .

• • • • • • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4231 PK - 2 Caot. E. WINSOR: Now, Sir, I am going to make a suggestion 1 ·unfortunately the han. Minister·of Transportation and Communications is ·not in his seat, ·.but I am going to make a suggestion to him to try and create a little employment, especially for the students who are coming out of the university because, Sir, they are the hardest hit, they have bills to pay, no work, and no hope of getting any. So I would say to that minister, and to the minister through this House that he should now start a gigantic source of ~·orY. around, and it is easy to conie by.

Let one take .a look at the ghastly roadbeds, roadsides all through the Province where we have had new construction, new road construction, the sides of the road and the hanks of the road almost everyvJhereare very ugly. Now, Sir, the contractors went in there and they plowed th~ough virgin territory and devastated the site, all the beautiful scenery, trees· are down by the roadside, the contracto·rs walked out and left .it. 'MR. MURPHY: Why not perhaps try a new contractor? CA~T. WINSOR: New contracts maybe, but I am not thinking of new contract, that remains to be seen, but the old contracts.

Now, Sir, I would say to the Minister of Transportation it ~muld be a very wise suggestion on his

part if he would start to engage people who are unemployed, the students especi~lly, and get them out there because there is work enough for ~ot one year or two years, but I would say there is work enou9h to employ a great number of those students for five or six years .

• • • • • ./ • • • • • June 8, 1978 Tape ~o. 4232 NM - 1 CAPTAIN HINSOR: If ~e are going to attract the tourists, and if '"e are going to leave some impression .t•i th the tourists, then certainly t.:e must nake our areas presentable or othenvise, Sir, they will go atvay leaving this Province 1-lith a bad taste in their mouth. So there is one area "'here I think the ~lin is ter of Transportation and the Premier should make an all-out effort to have this work done.

It will certainly have a psychological effect on the s ::·.dents , i i: 11ill have a psychological e~fect on the parent, because ,·Sir, one can imagine a parent day after day 1-lith her son or daughter coming hone, lying around, waiting, most of them, for the sun to set in the cloud, the darkness to come in so they can get out of the House, get out of the aggravation, somewhere to hide aiYay until the next morning they rise again. So, Sir, this will not only provide them 1-lith the badly ,needed jobs 1 it will create a "'oral stabilit~·, something Hhich they 1dll feel proud of. As I said before, ~r.

Speaker, it is very easy to destroy a person's Will Hhen he Or she are idle COntinuously. So, Mr. Speaker, I say that I was disturbed 1-1hen the hon. member for the Straits of Belle Isle G·!r. Roberts) compared the percentages of unemployment back ~hen we were the.administration to tvhat it is·today. ftnd if it were not for the Government of Canada,how bad would it be . It appears to me as I travel around, the only IYOrk in existence today is work created by the federal government.

There is very little activity showing·any signs of the provincial government, small jobs here and there hidden, not visible, but no great number of people employed. So those are the things, Hr. Speaker, that tve have to contend •1ith. I said let us compare some of .t::he achievements of the past administration to the present one. I mentioned the roads. I mentioned electricity. Look at that great :·!emorial

• June 8, 1978 Tape No. 4232 NH - 2 • CAPTAIN lHNSOR: University over there, and :1r, Speaker, if the government continues on its present path and continuously cuts bad~ in education two or three things •.vill happen over there.

One tvill certainly be a cutback iri registration, I • think that is pretty evident,and the other is going to be the tuitions toill be raised to a point ·,.;here t~e ;•ill get back to ~\"!"lere t:re ~:ere t\·~enty-five or thirty years ago when only the sons and dauFhters c.f people with means tdll be able to • afford to send their son or daughter to school,and perhaps moreso the people Hho are fortunate enough to live in the city close by that university. So, Hr. Speaker, t-1hat a difference, • Hhat a difference between this administration and the one previous. He can say all t.re like and criticize but,Hr.

Speaker, all of that criticis:n ::.as produced nothing, produced absolutely nothing. And this Province today is in a _very confused state and • if something is not done and done quickly, Sir, the children unborn tvill be the sufferers. Nvw, Mr. Speaker,. ho,., are ·,ye going to accomplish some of those things. l·/ell the first thing is tve must get our priorities in order. \ole certainly ••• - must make an effort to cut back on unnecessary expenditures and it is pretty obvious that there are a great many of them. We get criticized over here for being negative.

We get criticized over here for making slanderous remarks and bringing in rei)orts • of scandal. But, l·~r. Speaker, if we have a finance col!llllittee and that committee detects that there is some misgivings, they find misgivings that there is some tvrongdoings within the cor.fines of the government, it is their duty to bring it to the House . • They would be shirking their responsibility if they did not bring those matters to the House. But, Sir, we do net take any great pride •

I • • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4233 PK - 1 Capt: E. Winsor: in having to stand here and support motion after motion, support accusations that there is wrongdoings, that is not my style, Mr. Speaker, it is not my type. And I have to do it because I feel on· many occasions when the Chairman of that Committee can produce evidence which would indicate to us that there are wrongdoings . ~o, therefore, we have no choice, Mr. Speaker, so ~1e should not be criticized for that. The people of this Province, I think, would criticize it if we did not do it. So,therefore, ~1e are doing our duty • Now, Mr.

Speaker, I said when we increased the number of members in this hen. House to fifty-one, I said at that time that the number is too great. We certainly do not need fifty-one members in this House to look after this small Province with a little more than half a million people·, because, Sir, ih the days when we had no roads, and the members of that day had to travel back and forth by water or by other means, they could look after this Province with twenty-five and thirty, and it got up to thirty-six members, today we have fifty-one. Now, Mr. Speaker, no reflection on the member for St. John's North (Mr.

J.· Carter) or any other member for St. John's, But surely St. John's do not need, you know, eleven members is it? Ten or eleven members. . MR. MURPHY: Well,I suppose ten within the City . CAPT. E. WINSOR: Well ,ten within the radius of the City. You know, work can be done within any day. You can almost get in contact with your member, you know, at any given time by telephone. So here is where we could cut back on a few dollars, And a few doilars here and a few dollars there will enable many dollars to be spent in the right direction, this is my point.

You know, are we spending what dollars we have to spare in the right direction? 1 th.i.nk th.ere i.s room for improvement in that dire.ction, Mr. Speaker. Now, Sir, I have said the Speech from Th.e Throne allows the latitude for a member to deal with matters pertaining to his district, and I have to get into that because I do not know how mucfi time I have left, but certainly. I should have a few more Qinutes

• • • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4233 PK '" 2 Capt; E. VJinsor: left yet, but I want to bring to the attention of the House some of the problems, some of the problems which exist in Fogo district. And, Sir, as we all know Fogo district is a fishing district. There is no other employment, no other source of employment rut the fishery. And the fishery this past fe~1 years has been very good.

People are doing extremely well with the fish and the high price, of course, is making it a very prosperous district in certain areas. would say, and the Minister of Social Assistance can back me up and am sure he is delighted ·with this, I ~1ould say on Fogo Island, perhaps there are less recipients of social assistance on Fogo Island than·nerhaps in any other district, apart from the industrial districts. That is something which has happened within this past two or 'three years .

And the·hon. minister coming from that area certainly must take great pride in the accomplishment by a determined people, independent people, self-reliant people.- SOME HON. MEI~BERS: ·cAPT; E~ WINSOR: hosoitahle - MR. BRETT: CAPT: E. WINSOR: Hear, hear! - but Mr.

Speaker, I agree, friendly and Determined not to be resettled, \~ell now,the resettlement; there is a bit of confusion· every once in a Yihile, this is .what I said, now I am surprised at the hen. member-I am surprised that the hen. minister should fall into that trap because, you know, that is so far-fetched from the actua 1 fact that someone or the present government Y/anted to resett 1 e Fogo Is 1 and . MR. MURPHY: Is that a fact? . OAPT WINSOR: No, no, it is not a fact . As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, there is no

• • • • • • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4234 EC - 1 CAPT. E. WINSOR: community that was forced to resettle during the present administration, no settlement. HR.MURPHY: It all depends on .how you define the word "forcing." CAPT. E. WINSOR: Well, by force I mean where certain facilities may not be provided, schools, for instance, hospitals, for instance, you know, a facility that people must have in order to be happy and contented.

However, Sir, it is a fishing district, but what is going on on Fogo Island is certainly no - I do not think the government can take great pride in what is going on down there, because, Sir, if you were going to develop a fishing community, a fishing area, then the gov~rnment must provide facilities to go with the industry, facilities such as cultural, educational, social, and when you live in an area like Fogo Island- the community of Fogo, Joe Batt's Arm, Barred Island, Tilting-.where there is no water or sewer, where there are no paved road~, where people are going from well to well to try to get a drop of decent water to drink, you know, if we are going to develop the fishery then that only can be developed side by side with the improvements and the moderi facilities.

People today are not satisfied, Mr. Speaker, with the ways that we had to work when I was growing up. I did not mind taking my buckets and hoop and going for a quarter of a mile and bring water but that was the order of the day. But it is not the order of today, because those people are mobile. They know what is happening in Gander,· they know what is happening in other communities, so they are very discontented and unhappy with the way the government are treating them in this respect .. Department of Fisheries . Now, Mr. Speaker, to get to the But before I do I would like to

• • • • • • • --· • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4234 EC - 2 ~E. lHNSOR:· say we have a community of Musgrave Harbour where for the past three years there has been a water and sewer system partly completed . One part of the town or communiiy is living in the twentieth century and the other part of the town is away back in the eighteenth and nineteenth. That, Hr. Speaker, is brought about by the government not taking the initiative, not treating fairly that community­ another fishing community, a prosperous community, an independent people.

So how do you expect people to be happy and develop the fishery as it should be developed if their social life cannot be developed with it? And then, of course, we have Carmanville and all over th~ Fogo district, Mr. Speaker, there is an urgent need for a good source of drinking water . One of the chief items today is a source of good drinking water .• We cannot get it, and in many areas the cost of one or two or three wells would be the answer, but, Mr.

Speaker, we come pleading with the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, to him through his Water Services Committee, and it ·is utterly impossible to get any quick action. In the district of Fogo as far as I know this year ~here may be one water syste~ completed, and that is certainly ndt a water and sewer, but there may be one community provided with the means to supply a half decent source of drinking water . Now, Mr. Speake·r, there is an area where something must be done. We cannot expect our people to continue living the way our fathers an~ forefathers did.

They are living in the twentieth century, they are living in a modern age, and this is

• • • • e • • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4234 EC - 3 CAPT. E. WINSOR: the sort of thing that we need. On Fogo Island, Mr. Speaker, the previous government had a contract for nine miles or ten miles of upgrading and paving -of the road which was carried out,· but when the contractor completed that in 1973, I think it was, the contract was no longer available and the eguipment w•s taken off and left the Island of Fogo with a partly pa-ed road and th~·people are saying, 'Well, why is it that Fogo can be paved, Seldom to Fogo cannot be pavedJ

• • • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4235 IB-1 CAPT. WINSOR: Joe Batt's Arm cannot be paved, Stag Harbour Road cannot be paved' and now we find of course - and here we must give credit where credit is due-the Loop Road will be finished this year.thanks to, of course, Mr. Ottawa, thanks to ORE E. And this is the rna tter v1hi ch concerns me, 1~hy the provincial government has not requested that Fogo Island be included in the DREE agreement. It has not been included in the DREE agreements,which is an utter disgrace.

It is discrimination of the worst order to exclude an island fifteen miles out in the Atlantic, exclude them from any OREE financing. Now, Mr. Speaker, this is disgraceful, it is shameful and it is a matter which I ·am sure the people of Fogo Island ·will never forgive this government for. would say forget the idea of ever running a candidate down there and expect him to be elected, because, Sir, they will hold that in their minds for many, many years to come. Now, Mr.

Speaker, within the Department of Fisheries we all know that there are certain areas of responsibility which come under the jurisdiction of the federal government. But the providing the means whereby the fishermen can catch the fish and the facilities to cure it, the facilities to take care of the fish, freeze it, clean it, etc., that responsibility lies on the shoulders of the provincial government. The provincial government cannot shirk its responsibility in that direction. The.fishery, Mr.

Speaker, and I might quote a few lines here from the Heekerid Telegram which was given at the Fishery College on Saturday by Or. Blackwood. Dr. Blackwood, Director General of the Industry Service Directorate of the Federal Department of Fisheries told -the·graduating class of the Fisheries and Navigation Marine Engineers, "The industry must discipline themselves to increase the earning of those·involved whilst keeping costs dcwn and markets growing. We must not embark on unnecessary expansion." Mr.

Speaker, that speech was one of the finest speeches I have ever hearc'­ not heard but read, in dealing with our fishery. ·Now, Sir, I am going to suggest to the Minister of Fisheries.-

• • • • • • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4235 IB-2 CAPT. HINSOR: the provincial Minister of Fisheries is paying a half per cent per pound subsidy to take -care of the gear loss - well I am going to suggest to the Minister of Fisheries now that the provincial government in paying a half per cent per pound on quality fish to help cover gear losses or damages to equipment, that it be changed. And this is the way I would like to see it changed. Fishermen do not always get the benefit of that half cent per pound when it comes to replacing the gear. Some of it is spent.

Some fishermen have damage when there is no fish to catch. So what I would like to see the present government do is to set up a catch insurance and a retirement investment policy whereby a half a cent per pound will be collected from the fishermen themselves • do not believe that a fishermen would argue against that. Today the price of fish is such that it would enable a fisherman to contribue towards an insurance, a retirement insurance or a catch failure insurance. And the provincial government would pay .a half per cent. The fishermen themselves would pay half per cent and the federal - MR.

MURPHY: A half cent per pound. CAPT. WINSOR: A half cent per pound. Now I heard today where the federal government is going to cancel the 2 per cent subsidy. Let them take half of that 2 per cent, 1 per cent, let the federal government contribute one oer cent .

• • • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape No. 4236 JH- 1 MR. HURPHY: One cent. CAPTAIN \UNSOR: One cent is right. One cent per pound and of course the buyer a half a cent per pound. Then I think, Hr. Speaker, tve would have a good insurance policy, a good insurance scheme. Any gear losses or equipment losses would be paid for by this fund to the limit of fishermen's equity in the fund, This would control possible abuses,something which has not been done up until now,and would alleviate any further claims on government short of a national disaster. Now, Mr. Speaker, I should go over that again.

The scheme that I suggest is in conjunction with my hon. colleague from Fortune;...Hermitage •. Last year we were quite disturbed about this and he and I got together and we tried to come up with a better system than what the present minister is offering the fishermen today. So that policy would be half a cent per pound from the fishermen, half a cent per pound from the buyer and one cent per pound from the Federal Government and there we would have quite a contributing policy whereby the fishermen would feel independent. They would be independent of the ·government.

They would not have to ~e running to the government in case of damage caused to their gear by ice. It would take care of the gear replacement and it would also provide a retiring pension because that fund can really amount to quite a few dollars over a period of years with the price of fish and the way the fishing industry is progressing today • So, Mr.

Speaker, I J,ave made two suggestions in this . brief talk! one to the Hinister of Transpor.tation and Communications to create employment by getting students out to clear up the ghastly sights along the road banks;and one t~ the Minister of Fisheries to inaugurate this gear loss and retirement investment. If we do that then I feel we will have accomplished something in this session. Thank you! SO~ffi HON. Mfu~BERS: Hear: Hear:

• • • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape No. 4236 JM - 2 l1R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Placentia. HR. W. PATTERSON: Hr. Speaker o:· I may say that I was very much impressed there with the remarks made by my good friend, Captain Winsor. He was doing fine with his suggestions with regard to the cleaning up the road banks and make work programmes.I am all for that, I can go along with that one hundred per cent.

That is quite right and I think that when the Department of Highways let contracts for road work it should be stipulated in the contract that the gravel taken for the road be taken from probably four or five hundred feet back from the center of the road and a row of trees left to protect it.

Now what I do not agree with and what I am very much upset over,and of course it is a long ways back now and there is nothing can be done to correct it,but the member for Fogo said that in the resettlement programme the people were not forced from their homes, Now,I challenge any man on this side of the House, in the galleries, outside of the House or any place in Newfoundland that MR.CANNING: They forced them out of Placentia Bay • MR. W. PATTERSON: Forced, driven out of Merasheen, out of South East Bight, out of Red Island, out of Paradise, Little Paradise - HR. NEARY: That is not true. NR, A.J.

MURPHY: Okay, go ahead. MR. w. PATTERSON: It is.human true, It is true. HR. NEARY: Nobody was forced out. MR. w. PATTERSON: They were forced out through various means,by withdrawing the teachers • MR. NEARY: That is the school board. MR. W, PATTERSON: I did not mention who forced them out. So if you w~nt to be technical,Patterson can be technical. ·They were forced out .There was the carrot and a stick method • HR. NEARY: Could they get teachers to go there? MR. W, PATTERSON: Yes, they could get teachers to go there.

Yes, to a beautiful place such as Merasheen I am sure there would be hundreds of teachers want to go there •

• June 12, 1978 Tape No. 4236 JM - 3 HR. H. COLLINS: The hon, gentleman should be heard in silence. • HR. A.J. MURPHY: (Inaudible) very quietly there, Hr. Speaker. Can the gentleman not have silence? iHR, PATTERSON: No, that is quite alright. I am - HR. NEARY: To th.lt point of 9rder, Mr. Speaker. • HR. SPEAKER: There is no point of order before the Chair. HR. NEARY: Well,I will raise a point of order, Sir. The hon. gentleman has been in this House, Sir, long enough to know that you do not speak unless you are sitting in your own seat.

The hon. gentleman • is not in his own seat so he should be seen and not heard. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Placentia. HR. NEARY: A point of .order. MR. SPEAKER: I see no point of order before the Chair. • The point of order is, Sir, that the.hon. gentleman is speaking and not in his seat. MR. SPEAKER: The only hon. member recognized by the Chair is the hon. member for Placentia. • MR. NEARY: Well, a point of order, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised. l1R, NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I distinctly heard,and I believe Your Honour heard the hon, • - • • • •

• • • • • • ·- • • • •• June 12, 1978 Tape No. 4237 RT-1 l'P.. S. NEARY: member for St. John's Centre (Nr. }iurphy), Sir, speaking; as a matter of fact, stood up in somebody else's place and spoke in this han. House. That is against the rules of the House, Sir, and I ask ~our Honour to enforce the rules. If the han. gentleman is going to sit in that seat he should be seen and not heard. :-\R. SPEAKER (COLLINS): Order, please! ~y understanding of the rules is that if an han. member is to be recognized by the Chair he must rise in his atm place uncovered,and if he is recognized by the Chair he then can speak.

It is my understanding that interjections do not come into that category or that stipulation. Interjections strictly speaking are always out of order although they have been allotved to go by as long all the House does not get unruly. l.!p to this point in time the only member who has been recognized by the Chair,and he is standing in his ·awn place, the han. member for Placentia (Xr. Patterson). XF.. IV. P ATTEP.SON: ruling on that. MR. SPEAKER (COLLINS): NR. H. PATTEP.SON: The bon. member • Has the han. member complete his remarks? No, I tvas just waiting for you to make a Han. member. I suppose, }!r.

Speaker, it is a matter of

interpretation what is forced out and what is driven out, and what is the carrot and the stick method. But I can assure you that the carrot and stick method was used to get the people out of }!erasheen, out of ~ed Island, out of Little Paradise, Great Paracise, Southeast Bight, l·!oody Island, in Placentia Bay. I recall being introduced to the chief executioner, I have his picture here before me, I think it Has Sametz, the man to>ho was brought into this country to execute the· resettlement program. ~T.. fl. ROPE: lo'R. tl. PATTERSON: You are living in the past. Never mind living in the past. Think of. the future .

• • • • e • • ·- • • • • _,! June 12, 1978 Tape No. 4237 RT-2 '<?.. \o/. P ATTEP.SON : lve will get to the future. I •~as introducted to him by the hon. Dr. Frecker,and he said, "Patterson, Patterson, that name rings a bell". •He said, "You do a lot of writing in the press and you are critical of the resettlement program", and I said, "Yes". He looked at me for a ~~hile as though I were a cross beD•een a parrot and an eel, and he said, "You know, I am responsible for that program". l·lell I said, "I am certainly glad to meet you because for at<hile I thought there •.Jas no-one responsible for it" .

Nm~ if the hon. gentlemen opposite tvant to say that they ~;ere not forced out,t.;ould they tell me that the people were treated justly? ::R.CALLAN': That is still going on. I can give you the same agrument and say there are people down in Southwest Arm who are trying to get paved roads and cannot get them, and ice-making machines and cannot get them are being forced out of there. !'R. H. PATTERSON: No, I do not think so.

You ~e splitting hairs there. lfuen the people arrived at Southern Harbour,·.Jhich Has designated as a relocation reception centre, at Little Harbour, no '''<'.te.r, !10 set,•erage, and :1 family of three t~ere given but $2,!00. ~oH can you i.magine landing in Placentia t·Jith $2,100 and to try to buy a J··.ouse there? l·!ouses were selling for $8,000 and $10,000 at the time so the people had to go in debt. n> .. S. tlEMY: m;at you are saying is that there is nothing t.·rong tvith r·esettlement, it' is the method that was used. That is t~hat you are saying. }!R. H.

PATIERSON: I will get to that later. ·so they had to go ahead and raise $8,000, and $~.0,000 and $15,000 in many cases and this money -had to be raised from the banks and the finance companies. MP.. S . NEARY : If they had gotten $50,000 it t.'Ould have been all right with you .

• June 12, 1978 Tape No. 4237 RT-3 • !~R. H. PATTERSON: I will get to that, you are bordering on it. ·so they had to go in debt to the banks and finance companies, so in other ,,•ords they financed their own destruction. 1-!R. S. KEARY: ·It is the amount of money you are really • concerned ,Jith. ~~R. H. PATTERSO~:: No, not so much that. No'~ several small places in the Day - I •muld say if they had resettled Herasheen or brought the people up • to there <-~here they had good ••harves, electricity, and had everything. ~!R. S. NEAP.Y: Why did they n.ot go there? ' ~fR. H. PATTESON: Hell, something went 'rrong.

I would say that there would be no problem • to get teachers to go to these islands even yet and the fi.shermen are going back there today to fish. And the islands are going to be resettled again, make no bones about that, they are going to be resettled. And from those islands came great men1 • men who distinguished themselves in every field of endeavour. So He ah;ays had good teachers out there, The hon. member over them, a good friend of mine - IT .. S. NEARY: As a matter of fact, the principal of the ·- school ·I went to was from P.ed Island. ~:R. W. PATTEP.SON: Right. !·CR. S.

NEAP.Y: But he did not resettle, he left there years • ago. He had to leave there to go to Bell Island to make a living . • t--:P... lv. PATTERSON: lvell, I would say he had the capability, he brought something to Bell Island with him which '"as an industrial centre and you had to be more or less a professional, or a semi-professional man to <mrk there . • MR. S. NEARY: He must have been a genius to put me through Grade XI. HR. ~:. PATTERSON:· Well - We agree on that • • J:~l:'· PATTERSON: Well that is all I have to say about Captain Winsor's remarks~ The resettlement program was cruel, it was heartless, •

• • • • • • ·- • • • • ·June 12, 1978 HR. P ATTE!'.SOll: HR. CA:ILHNG: Tape 423R f)\~ - 1 it was uncalled for. (Inaudible) where they had electrcity and fish plants and everything they wanted • tffi. PATTET1.SON: the c~· to take off the boats. }iR .. r.ANNING: l-ffi. PATTEP.SOll: .But the government encouraged Oh, no (inaudible) the teachers They did so. Anrl the school boards and the church l<ere as much involved as government. Once they got in. If you had twenty families en an island, possibly eight or ten could nOt care leSS Where they lived, they 1-lOUld like to get into Placentia and that influenced them.

AN HON . HE·IDER: ~P. • P ATTERSOH : ~;R. CAN;H:lG: the merchant. i·ll'.. PATTERS01i: Rut you let them. And then the merchant left. (Inaudible) but the priest and 1-'ell, they condoned the actions of the bishops and the priests and the merchants. l-ffi. S. :-lEARY: hack in the 1~20s. MR. ?ATTERSO:<: Oh, I see (inaudible) tidal ~ave No, it was not a ti.dal. Have back in the l920R. Thi.s all happened and hen. p,entlemen opposite 1vould like to forget about it. Rut anyhow - HF.. l'ORr.Pl~: They Here in poHer. '·!R. PATTERSON: Right.

HP .. r.P.NNIW:: (Inaudible) about that, the merchant would discourage the teachers. l'R. PA'ITERSON: Yes, they discouraged everything with regard to Placentia Bay. They encouraged the C:anl'!clian National to apply to the Board of Transport Commissioners to ahandon the port of Argentia. lffi. NEARY: (Inaudible) Second l.Jorld Har too.

• • • • e • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4238 !)!-1 - 2 I!P .• PATTERSON: tlo1v the government did that and I have it right here from the previous administration where they agreed 1dth the ~linister of Transport in Otta1~a and they satd to thel!1, 'Look, you go ahead, abandon the port of Argentia, transfer it all into St. John's, ~•e will not s11y a word about it provi~ing you 1viJ.l d'l one thing. ' r.m_. S . ;{f.ARY: yon bacl'. it up? :!R. P!l.TIERSON: Sir. c!R. S • !-!Ei\RY : tabled. HR. PATIEP..SON: no you have proof?

Can Yes, I can back that up, Let u!J see the docul!lent I Nill tahile the document for the hon. gentleman if he wants it. It says, "Insofar as the application for abandonment is concerned, it is being undertaken principally on an understanding reached with the government of Newfoundland when the federal undertook to pay the full cost of building a mortem highHay from ArgentiR to the '::rans'-f:anada Highway." Incidentally, they never did finish that job and there is three miles to he done through Dunville.

The Xewfoundland Government agreed ~lith abolishing the railway down to Argenti.a for the sake of a road. :-:R. PAT'l:C:;!.SON: ''At that time the Provincia! Government ag:--=ed 'that it offer no objection to the abandonment of the railway - .! \'R • S • clF.All.Y : NR. PATTERS0:-1: '·mat are you quoting from n01c? .- after the highway had been open~d. Hithout such. assurance the federal government 1-1ould not have undertaken this very substantial expenditure Hhich will result both in greatly in?roverl transport services and in a smaller burclen on the federal treasury." Al-1 nor;. ~:B1lEP.: Signed' by?

• • • • • • • • • • June 12, 19 78 Tape 1,238 DH - 3 :T.. PATTERSON: ~low as soon as I heard that ~Je tJent to 14oi;k and He hi reo a lawyer here in St. John's. HP.. CALLAJ'I : l!R. PATTERSON: Hhat year tvas that? 19~7. ~nd he then immediately prepared a brief antl that brief is to be presented to the Canadian National whatever time the hearing comes up. It may be this year and it may be next year but that is all stopped that . HR • HORhA.t'! : then minister? HR. PATTET:SON: Transport . l!R. MORGAN: AN HON. l·IEHBER: t·lR. PATTERSON: That was signed by IJhat That was the :-:inister of Paul Hellier, was it?

Jack Pickcrsgill. That was the hon . .John Pickersgill. Now this was a bit of underhanderl work, there is no doubt at all about that·. There were fifty or sixty men working in Argentia:then and they certainly did not want the port of Argentia service transferred to St. John's. Phat did that have to do with (inaudible) in Placent:!.a 1lay, for God's sake. :m. PATTERSON: I am off that subject. ~·lo~~ I am prepared to debate that with the hon. gentleman outside this House or - HR. CANNI:<G : ~·CR. PATTERSON: (Inaudible) nearly enough. !-'ell that is your opinion; it is a matter of opinion. But, 1!r.

Speaker, Placentia, Jerseyside, and Dun ville, Fresht~ater gret·J and prospered with the coming of the Americans there in 1 01.1. They have nOt4 reached the population of 7,000. It was because of the presence of the American bases that the people moved from Red Island and from Trinity ~ay and Conception Bay to ~York on the construction projects .

• • • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 f\\·1 - t.. ~-:.r.. S • !lEARY : I moved down there mvsel.f. my son. I \vor!~ed on the (inaurlible). t'R. PATIET\SOIJ.: anrl got a Homan . 11211, you carne rl.o1m here I do not see w'ly you probably shoulrl not go bP..ck there. Fl rot:. !·!E}!]jr.Tl.: J1e went dorm there to get a ~·;oman, cUd he? ?·!r... PATTERSO~:: He marrier! a woman from rlovm there? He married a girl from out there? : lR • '-TEAF.Y : I d:i.d not meet her then. I was working on the base do1m there in 1944 and 1945. ;!R.

PJ\TTERSON: area in Newfoundlancl - ~~ HON. ~HBER: or resettled (inaudible) '1R • P ATTERSOH : I suppose if there is an Could you call me (inaudible) He could possibly constder that ~orith accepting you as a· t:itizen if you buck up a little. SOHE !!ON. Hf.'ffiEl'.S: lT .. PATTE:tS0N: Hear, 'lear! There is not an area in Ne1·rfoundlanrl, '1r. Speaker, that regional government should apply to moreso than Placentia. He have four towns and a population of 7 /lOll.

He have four mavors, I think about . thirty-three counsellors, four tmm halls, four fire trucks, and eveeything is just not functioning. tlow if the res:irlents in there and the mayors no not go for the amalgamation of the towns, I think the government should take the bull by the horns and lay their carcls on the table and point out to them that consolidation tvould be the het ter form of government. ~!R. liF.ARY : Is the hon. gentleman advocating that the government should force arnalp,arnEtion on those towns?

• • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4239 EC - 1 MR. PATTERSON: Well, if the government is footing the bill and picking up deficits, I think, you know, government should have a say. ~!R. NEARY: favour of that, is .he? MR. PATTERSON: amalgamation - HR. NEARY: HR. PATTERSON: And the hon. gentleman is in Oh, yes, I am in favour of Right. - and I possibly lost five elections down there because of the position I took on amalgamation. Arid I think all hon~ g~ntleman and ladies would agree,'Why have four mayors and thirty-three councillors for 7,000? MR.

NEARY: Do y~u not agree that there should be a referendum down there to decide? HR. PATTERSON: Oh, certainly. Yes, I would certainly agree to a referendum. MR. NEARY: MR. PATTERSON: Right, and the sooner the better. And, you know, let the people decide, but if they are not going to decide,well, then they· are going to have to increase their taxes so the government will not have to pay a deficit. MR. STRACHAN: Should the Hinister of i1unicipal Affairs appoint «regional government? MR.

PATTERSON: No, I would not say that they should appoint it , but what they should do is create the climate for it, probably take the mayors in and sit down and have a chat with them a'nd look over their balance sheets and their budgets, you know . MR. STRACHAN: They are appointed in St. John's,

• • June 12, 1978 Tape 4239 EC - 2 MR. STRACHAN: .are they not? HR. PATTERSON: Yes. I suppose that is the • reason lvhy they want three or four on the boards there. MR. STRACHk~: (Inaudible) so they can do it all. MR. NEARY: Which is the most democratic way to do it now ' - appoint i:hem or have a referendum? • MR. PATTERSON: Well, the most democratic way to do it would be to hold a referendum.- MR. NEARY: Right. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. PATTERSON: • - put it on the ballot paper - MR. NEARY: Right. MR. PATTERSON: - and then let the people decide {f they want it.

But if you have an area where you have four or five councils and they are not functioning, they are • operating at a deficit, they have to be. subsidized by the government, I think tha~ has to be wiped out. It is not healthy and it is not a good form of local government. MR. CANNING: Right. A good point, much ·- better than your first one. MR. PATTERSON: Pardon? HR.CAID!ING: A good point that is. You made a mess of the first one . • MR. NEARY: He is making a mess of this one, too. MR.

PATTERSON: I would think that in a year or probably two or three years down the road, all this may happen • because the schools are consolidated, the police are consolidated. .:. MR._ NEARY: But they are moving the school back to Freshwater now. Have they moved it back this year • or moving it back next year? 'e

• . -t • • • e • • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4239 EC - 3 MR. PATTERSON: No, they have built a new school at Dunville and I doubt if there will be any change • MR. NEARY: Well, I was in the church there one Sunday and I heard the priest say they are going to move the kids back to Freshwater again. !·!R. PATTERSON: of it, but - MR. NEARY: schools. MR. PATTERSON: MR. NEARY: Well, there was some talk He believed in the smaller schools - I doubt if that will happen. Well, now, they have changed the priest there since that. MR. PATTERSON: Yes, it may and it ma~ not. But the chief source of employment up there, Mr.

Speaker- ERCO Industries, U.S. Navy, Department of Transport, trade school and the other schools of various denominations, finance companies and the bank. Now I cannot speak in such glowing terms as my friend, the hon. the member for Ferryland (Mr. Power) spoke the other day about his district. Listening to him there ~ thought for sure we were going to have a pollution problem up in Placentia with the prevailing Southerly winds that could take the fumes from the Southern Shore and dump them in there, but - MR. NEARY: U.S. Base? }!R. PATTERSON: MR. NEARY: in there. NR. PATTERSON: ERCO Industries, 400. MR.

NEARY: How many are employed on the About 113. They are the biggest employer Biggest employer? No, ERCO.

• • • • e • • • • • .. ' June 12, 1978 Tape 4239 · EC - 4 l1R. PATTERSON: Well, ERCO Industries possibly would have 100 from Dunville. AN RON. MEHBER: ERCO at Long Harbour. MR. PATTERSON: Yes, ERCO at Long Harbour. The fisheries are certainly beginning to stabilize the economy out there, and we have the hospital there; it is an old hospital, it was built in 1941 when the former hospital was moved from Argentia to make room for the base. we need a new hospital. Now MR. NEARY: MR. ·PATTERSON: getting (Inaudible) of Newfoundland. I would not say that it is not

• • • • • • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4240 IB-1 MR. PATTERSON: all the attention it deserves. It could stand a little more attention. But this is coming along well. The hosoital has made it there. HR.MORGAl'l: Tney ignored it .for years. MR. PATTERSON: Oh yes, yes, yes . MR. NEARY: administration. 11hatever they got they 90t with the he 1 p of the former All they got out of the present administration was the sewer line which cost $1 million and it does not ~tork. There has not been one toilet flushed through it yet. $1 million and you cannot flush a toilet in it yet. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please!

Of course,when an hon: member is speaking,as I mentioned a little earlier,interjections strictly speaking are out of order but these are not ruled upon, at least the Chair does not intervene unless an hon. member requests protection ~then intervention is immediate. But if the interjections do become such,even though an hon. member does not ask for protection, they become such that the hon. member cannot make his remarks I think the Chair does have a duty here. we are approaching that stage now. The hon. member. MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Speaker - MR. NEARY: Tell us about .the slot machines. I think MR.

PATTERSON: Well we can get around to the slot machines later. I think the hon. gentleman is well versed in the operation. do not know how many jack pots he has hit,but I would say he has a knowledge of slot machines. MR. NEARY: like the older machines better than the new ones. MR. PATTERSON: Oh yes. They pay a little better. MR. NEARY: I have cracked more cherries than anybody else in that area. ·MR. PATTERSON: Well, there are usually three to a row. You know, that is a sjxty dollar jack pot. Mr.

Speaker, I do not know how well publicized the fact is that last year there they unveiled a plaque to Sir Winston Churchill .

• • • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4240 IB-2 . MR. PATTERSON: That is out at Ship Harbour Point. That is where the Prince of ~was anchored when the Atlantic Charter was negotiated. Now I am very sad to say that out to that historic site today there is nothing but a mud road, a river of mud. Of course,that is the responsibility of historic sites and monuments. MR. NEARY: That is out towards Fox Harbour, is it? MR. PATTERSON: Yes.

The road leading to there passes through Fox Harbour and then on to Ship Harbour. $o there is an area there of about six miles of gravel road and that road is now being upgraded in preparation for paving. The real problem up there that fishermen are having,as 1~ell as fishermen all over Ne~1foundland, I suppose, is with the inshore draggers that are coming in at night and doing considerable damage to the fish stocks as well as to the nets. This has been brought to the attention of the federal fisheries and they always come up with the excuse,''. How can we patrol Placentia Bay?

How can we manage boats from going in there at night .il To which I say, you know, how in ·the hell are you going to patrol the Grand Banks, the Georges Banks and wherever you have to patrol. So these boats are doing a lot of damage there. The herring seiners operate in there possibly for tl-10 weeks out of a year and they take half the quota, which leaves about 600 tons for the inshore fishermen to take with purse seines and ring seines. That is really no good. At six cents a pound and there are six boats geared up for it? they make probably $6,000 each.

So I feel that the mobile fleet,which are the b·ig seiners., should be barred from St. Mary's Bay, Placentia Bay and all bays for that matter where they operate in Newfoundland. That would give the herring a chance to move in around the bays and in turn the cod fish would chase the herring and both would be caught. It is not so now. The grounds are being destroyed and the herring are being taken by the big seiners . And it is really not worthwhile

• • • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4240 IB-3 MR. PATTERSON: for the small operator to be in there. Placentia Bay has a great potential there for a crab fishery but the crabs are in the deep water, in 600 feet of water and that is the tanker rcute l~ading up to Come By Chance. So you kr.o•·· fishermen have been doing real well there now since the tankers seopped moving, since the tankers discontinued. If the refinery is to open again,strict percautions are going to have to be taken to protect the fishery.

I think that what we are going to have to get is a 200 mile limit on tankers unless they are of a certain construction, double hottol"s ?.nd safe ~!ith radar - HR CANNING: You are not getting back that communications system (inaudible) ------ MR. PATTERSON: No,I doubt if the communication system will 90 back. But while that communication system was there several

• • • • •• • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape Ho. 4241 HR. W. PATTERSON: accidents were prevented. We have had some very close calls up there with CN boats, phosphorus si1ips, fishermen crisscrossing the bay and possibly if that radar site had been left at Cuslett we may know more about what happened to the dragger out of Burgee. Because I feel, Jii - 1 I am certainly sure that parts of the boat drifted ashore on St. Brides. And possibly the boat went down close to Cape St. Nary's as it turned to go into Marystown.

If that radar station had been left there and not moved out to Port aux Basques,that accident possibly could have been averted. MR. LutiDRIGAN: That construction company put in that system and what did it cost? MR. PATTERSON: MR. J. LUNDRIGAN: NR. PATTERSON: HR. J. LUNDRIGAN: . NR. PATTERSON: $5 million. What does it cost to operate it? Oh, operating costs, about ten men. That is all. Yes. They had a main station at Argentia and a satellite station at Cuslett and one at Arnolds Cove.

So when the tankers came in the bay, came in from the Atlantic,they were picked up at Cuslett,relayed to Argentia and then relayed to Arnolds Cove. Mr. Speaker, Southern Harbour is a small community with a population ·of 700 and that had a population prior to resettlement to possibly 250. So that town is fairly well serviced now. There is a small fish plant there and they fish for lobster, herring and cod. AN HON. ME11BER: 'All Federal money spent there • MR. PATTERSON: Not as much as Provincial.

The Provincial Government put $1 million into the lift there, not syncrolift, travellift 1 and they put $1 million into water and sewerage, they paved the road and they put - oh my good God, $300,000 or $400,00 into the recreation facilities there.The small wharf is from the Federal Government, nothing big. ·The Federal Governllient, the Federal Department they are certainly neglecting the fishermen operating out of Merasheen - r notice the hon. member· is starting to perk up·over there now; AN HON.MEMBER: How many fishermen over to Merasheen this year?

• • • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape No. 4241 HR. CANNING: That is your look out now. HR. PATTERSON: I do not know if it is my look out or not but I have been looking after it since I came in here,I will guarantee you that,and the Provincial Government rebuilt a stage there and put in heat and lights. MR.CANNING: lfR. PATTERSON: They did not put a wharf there (inaudible) The wharf started there. I interceded with the Federal Department and we got a wharf off the ground and the company building the wharf went i.>roke. I have been out there three or four times. HR.CANNING: A.B. Walsh went broke. JM -: 2 HR.

PATTERSON: I do not know the principals in the company but I do know out at Red Island we - HR. NEARY: The Premier's buddy, Mr. Walsh. HR. PATTERSON: I do know that on Red Island,the Area Development Association in Placentia built a wharf at 7 SOME HON,Mfu~ERS: Oh,oh! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon.· gentleman. MR. PATTERSON: The Area Development in Placentia built a wharf at Red Island and put a nice shed on it with lights in it. The fishermen there are nice and comfortable •.

They had to go back there and live in old rat infested shacks, rats that length used to come up through the floor in the fish plant at Merasheen.And when I was elected I went out there, the first two weeks I was elected and I came to the minister here and we 11ad the lights put in, a heater put in and bins for salting their fish· They are quite comfortable,but now the wharf, that is a mess I must say. AJ.'< HON. MEMBER: Did they kill the rats? MR. PATTERSON: I do not know what they did there to tell you the truth. Put poison there,I suppose.

The Federal Department of Public Works are neglecting the islands out there. Four years ago over at Davises Cove the CN took away the wharf and they refused to rebui1d that wharf. So now we have to go after the Area Development

• • • • • •• ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape No. 4241 i'JR. PATTERSON: Association again to put in an application to Canada Harks and we will get a few dollars out of Sma.L.L <.:ratts down here and hopefully we will get a few bucks out of the :1inister of Fisheries and we will get a new wharf there. So in some ways the Federal Fisheries - I will relate one story to you. Last summer a fisherman .up at one of the harbours there he went out to his JH - 3

• June ],2, 1978 Tape No. 4242 • :m. 7 P-TTERSON: herring net and he had one lobster in \1is boat coming in, he took it out of the net. And he was taken to court for having this lobster and he was fined $25.~ Magistrate Corbett at Placentia he marked on his summons that • no further action be taken on this. A year later, the commenceme~t of this season's fishery, he received notice from the federal fisheries do•m here that he was taken out of. the fishery for fourteen days for having one lobster . • HR. LU'!IDRIGAN: It is unbelievable. ~1R. PATTERSON: It is unbelievable but that man lost an average of $200 a day.

So he lost $2,800 plus the $25. Nm-1 I have written Fisheries on this back and forth but there ls no· way ··They are not . • going to yiel'd to me. But they should have produced that evidence in court. They ;;ere trying to say he took the lobsters from his pot. .A.N HON. ~!EMBER: Do you know he did not? :e . PATTERSON: Ami sure he did not? Who am I to judge? • HR. CA..mUNG: I never heard anything about it. :·1R. PATTERSON: Hell if you knew who_ he was ~t would not !!lake any difference, you know .. Who he is, that does not make any difference "here he got it.

But over at Little Harbour, that is another area 1;here constituents from the hon. member's district, well-looked after since the Conservatives took office, not before that; not enough t;ater up there to baptize a youngster until I got elected. They used to have to bring the water there for baptisms. And now they have • a nice .stage there, 200 feet long, two story, a nice little fish plant operating there. It is leased to private enterprise. 11R. ~TEARY: Is that O'Brien's out there. ·:<:R.

PATTEil.SON: !fo,Kevin Wadman • And he is doing a real good • job there, an excellent job. .They have a new wharf there by the provincial fisheries ~and Canada l~orks put up so much money last year and there is a nei·T Hater line going in there. : NR. ctJmiNG: Little Harbour • • ~U?.. PATTERSON~ Little Harbour, yes. ; .,:

• • • • e • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape No. 4242 l-P.1 - 2 :m. PATTERSON: Oh there was a tiny little plant that burned about - I do not know, five or six or seven or eight years ago. So thare is a water line going in there noH through Canada Horks and provincial involvement and the road is being rebuilt in there, reconstructed and the road ·,;ill be paved. So all in all most of the communities in ti1e district now are serviced '.-lith 11ater and seuerage; if not before,ar:other t-.'o years hopefully it ·\·Till all be done. To get back to the hon. mem::.er for LaPoile CC·!r.

Neary), he :1as been needling me once in a while on the l>ater and se"erage at Placentia. Yes, that 11as a blunder. There: is no doubt at all about that. $500,000 buried. MR. NEARY: HR. 'PATTERSON: :-lR. NEARY : 1-!R. PATTERSON: $1 million. No, $500,000. $1 million. $500,000; company gone. up the spout, case in court, started in 1974, and the case \vent to court about tHo months ago. MR. ~:EARY: 1•1R. PATTERSON: AN HON. ?-!EMBER: from (inaudible) HR. PATTERSON: Did they call the bond~ Yes. Yes. As good a job as the one Crosbie got I do not recall Hr. Crosbie ever getting one for him. I recall !1r.

Patterson getting one for him. Although he I> as a very close colleague of mine. This was all provincial money, no federal money involved~. and the loan. HR. CANNING: Provincial • MR. PATTERSON: Provincial. MR. CANNING: (Inaudible) by-election. MR. PATTERSON: No. No. 1974. MR. CANNING: But he never moved up there (inaudible).

• June 12, 1978 Tape :{o. 4242 N:1 - 3 • }!R. PATTERSON: That is- the ex-mayo-r,- a very fine gentleman, a man who devote~ twenty-five years of his life to bei~g mayor of Placentia. Any man t<ho gives t~;enty-five years of !1is service to a community certainly - • AN HON. ~"IENBER: No pay. ( ~ffi. PATTERSON: - deserves recognition. And I t>'ould say Mr. l1iller was instrumental in getting that line through. l·ffi. CA~miNG: P.e t·Jent to the Liberal authorities - • ~m. PATTERSON: He tJas the first Tory member after Confederation.

He tvas elected as a Tory member and then he became a Liberal, and then· he satv the light and he got out . • He only had ttvo flicks at it. But anyhow a very fine gentleman and he gave a lot of hi!: time to t!1e community up there. He spent ttventy-five years. I think the area, ~!r. Speaker, has a great future. There is no • doubt at all about that. I can see that Argentia is going to be developed. There is no doubt about that. It has •..1onderful potential, 1-16nderful potential out there and I think you will see industrialists moving in there.

I think tvhen the Sullivan Commission, the report it out, you will find that Argentia will be recommended • • • •

• • • • e • • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape No. 4243 RT-1 ~-:R. !\1 • PATTERSON: for a year-round service to North Sydney. I do not say that now to needle my han. friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) because he has taken care of his end of it out there and that is natural for him to try to block things there. HR. NEARY: You should get the freight moving down there, freight that is destined for Port-aux-Basques move it out of there • t:R. W. PATTERSON: Pardon? MR. CAI.'<NING: You could promote a good fishing port for Argentia, an ideal port for that. ~~. W.

PATTERSON: Yes. ~!ell that it being looked at nm.r; in fact, 1ve have three major companies, three of the big ones, I had a group in there last week and 1Yithin three weeks I will have another group in there, and.in August another group. So, hopefully, there will be a dragger operation out of Argentia that '"ould employ 300 or 40_0 p_eople • But ail in all the future looks bright out· there and that is what it would take now, about 300 jobs to stabilize the economy. Thank you, Hr. Speaker. MR. S • NEAP.Y : Hr.

Speaker, before the han. gentleman takes his seat~would the hon. gentleman care to tell us what is happening on the northeast side there, the abandoned naval base? Is the member getting any co-operation now from DREE. to try to attract industry into that area? ~!hat is happening in connection Hith that part of the base that is abandoned? Could the member give us a rundc~~ on it and give up a rundo~-~n on Castle Hill? What is happening there? !T.. H.

PATTERSON: As I mentioned before, I believe, you asked me a question one night here on Argentia, the-big stumbling block with development in there is with DREE, is with Cashin and HcGonegal HR. S. NEARY: What is the problem? }!R. W. PATTERSON: Well,I do not know. The problem is that they have to go. l~y· son, they. just have to go, they have to move •

• • • • • • • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape No. 4243 RT-2 . lfR. W. PATTERSON: A development corporation or a development officer has to be established in there and they should dig out a good man, not a political hack, a man t~ho ~;ould be prepared to work, and give ·him a year's contract, or a two year's contract, and say, "Here, boy, look, there is the budget and you go ·to work and at the end of the year you come back with something!, or the end of the two years. FP.. S. NEt.RY: Have the facilities been turned over to ------- the Province no"? ~'F. F.

PATTERSON: The Americans ·have agreed, ·the ~:e1-1fcundland Government has agreed, External Affairs has agreed, and it is just a matter of a signature from the ~inister of External Affairs. Am I right in that? . AN RON. 1-fEl\BER: l·1R, H. PATTERSON : The Secretary of State for External Affairs, Yes, but everything else has been agreed and the lands have been surveyed and apportioned for the Federal and apport~.oned for the Provinc:!.Rl • But Arcentia will never be developed as long as it is left in slings as it is in right no<V.

A friend of mine who applied to set up a plant in there, a small plant, he t<ould have employed about eighty men and he is given the runaround, down to McGonegal, Cashin, Industrial Development, who helped him, the Ninister of Fisheries here helped, but that is where he stopped. He could be employi~g eighty men in there "hich means I t~ould only have 220 people out of work • HP., S . NEARY: What business is 'that? AN HON. l·:El.lBER: Fishing. MR. H. PATTERSON: A fish plant. Yes. MR._ S. NEAP.Y: l·ihat about· the refrigeration there now, the cold storage? ~!F.. H.

PATTERSON: Gold storages now are being rebuilt at a cost of $1,000,000 Provincial money and I thin!: they should be completed within six months. That tvill given an additional nine to ten million

• June 1' 1978 Tape No. 4243 RT-3 __ , • 1~R. H; PATTERSON: pounds capacit-y. :-21.. s. XEARY: \·fuo will use that? Hhat ~·ill it be used for? Y.!'! 0 v. PATTERSON: l;Tell 1I do not think that has really been decided. I ~.rould think that if one of the big companies take over the • complete warehouse 1.rhich is a three-storey building, concrete, with twelve-ton elevators, then that possibly may tie in with that particular company or companies, or they in turn may set up their o~m cold storage facilities on the top floor. But I c!o not_ think that we are doing all • we should be doing.

I do not blame it on Government and I think it is on ourselves. We are exporting too much fish in the raw state. T~.ro month:; ago I mentioned here in this House that I 1.rent over !:o Ne~.r Bruns1dck and took· ·a look at the operations there, and there are one hundred smoke- • houses in :leN Brunswick. One hundred. A family business, a small investment, $20,000, and they are smoking their herring with natural Hood, it is not artificial smoke,and that gives it a better flavour. An investment of $20,000 ~.rould build a smokehouse and put in the vats • for the herring.

No~·' they transport their barring over there different than ~1e do. They buy the herring from the fishermen and then they have a tank true!;: like you see around St. John's for gasoline, and that is full of brine and the herring are put in immedi.ately. l<e leave herring ·- around to lie in the sun in the back of an old truck for t~.ro or three days, or en a ~.rharf, and • • • •

• • • • e • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4244 EC - 1 }IR. PATTERSON: that is bad news, Rut they have markets down in the West Indies and down i~ Uganda, I believe. And they tell me that they have unlimited markets for mackerel . And Placentia Bay and other bays in Newfoundland '~ith millions and millions of tons of ma~kerel and the mackerel are not being processed yet. So I think we can get a market down there in the Wesi Indies for mackerel . But to get back to the Argentia thing there, the green light has been given for industry to move in there. -MR. NEARY: official document yet. HR.

PATTERSON: But the signature is not on the That is right, but the green light has been given and I wish that Mr. Jamieson would move on that . I think he should move on it and now that the federal election is down the road,a year, possibly, I doubt if he would hold off t!'tat long MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: ~r. Speaker, first of all I would like, as is the traditio~, and I would gladly do it, to congratulate the mover and seconder of the debate in the Speech from the Throne.

It is rather appropriate, because in this particular year Her Majesty the Queen will be a guest of ours in this Province for a little while and I believe it is going to happen this month or next month if I am not mistaken. Maybe the House Leader opposite - MR. HICKNAN: July. MR. NOLAN: - in July. And all I hope is that during Her Majesty's visit, whether it is here on the Avalon or wherever it is, that some of the ordinary people of the Province will get an opportunity to meet Her Majesty .

• • • • • ·- • • • •• June 12, 1978 Tape 4244 EC - 2 MR. NOLAN: I am thinking about the young school children particularly, senior citizens and others. What I am talking about is those who under normal circumstances have no chance in God's world of coming into a direct presence with.

Her Majesty, I would hope will be given the opportunity while she is visiting here to meet with or at least get somewhere close to Her Majesty, allowing always, of course, for the proper security procedures that are so necessary, and I hope that we would not merely have the usual 500 who have an opportunity to sit and have a belt of the grape at public expense MR. '!cNEIL: As is the case.. She . has only fifteen minutes in Bay St. George, in and out . . MR. NOLAN: ~'R. 'lEARY: to. queue up. party. MR.

NOLAN:· Well, the thing is; I realize - The ordinary people «ill have All the big shots will be invited to the cocktail Well, I only mention it now as I start my very few remarks in the hope that the ordinary people of this Province will be given an opportunity to do so.

As a matter of fact, I do not know if it would be considered a discourtesy - I hope not - I am wondering if perhaps those people who may have had the opportunity before might be willing to give way and let some of the people who have never been close to Her Majesty the Queen in their lives have an opportunity to meet her,···~~ onr.P. in a lifetime opportunity; ordinary people, men and women, young boys and girls, those from the various senior citizens' homes - now I know she cannot meet them all, but at least let us give some consideration to it. Now, Hr.

Speaker, I would like to just for a very few moments take a moment or two to '.

• • • • • • •e. • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4244 EC - 3 HR. NOLAN: talk about a number of things in a district that I represent, namely, Conception Bay South, which I think in terms of real numbers, in terms of voters and so on, is probably, in fact is, the largest provincial district in Newfoundland in terms of real numbers of citizens present or living in the district. It must be a big· district and I tvill tell you tvhy .

I understand tre Minister of Justice may be involved in bringing in an election reform bill or some such thing in the Fall or whenever - I do not know exactly when - but in the last election in 1975, the night before the election I had a call telling me there was another polling booth that we had not been informed about at all~ not at all. I went there the next morning and they were set up 1 a number of ladies there fulfilling their official functions, and they were supposed to stay there until 8:00 or 9:00 or 10:00 or 11:00 that night.

There was no heat in the place, no place to put on the kettle to boil a cup of tea, nothing at all; last minute, hove together and, in fact, I had to arrange with someone to go and try to get a bit of heating in there for them. Is this the way elections are run in this Province? Is this the way it was planned? Is this what any man or woman who is running in any district in Newfoundland deserves?

No matter what party they run for,it is a scandal to have that type of thing happen, But it happened to me, and I believe it was one of the rottenest tricks ever pulled by any group ever in Newfoundland, rotten to the core. I would like also to say, and I am sorry the Minister of Tourism - AN .HON. MEMBER: MR. NOLAN: (Inaudible) Pardon?

• • • • • • ·- • • • • June 12, 1978 Tape 4245 IB-1 Oh, you are up 11,000 or 12,000 more. I think my friend from Baie Verte (Hr. Rideout) also has a very, very large district, probably second or third I think in terms of numbers. But,see,the thing is with this particular area that .I am tal king about, you have the registered voters my friend refers to. But it is growing a 11 the time. I mean the growth, and some of the growth is restricted in some ways because of the lack of the essential services ·which my friend is certainly familiar with.

But I do not suppose there is any place that I can think of off h~nd where there is a greater demand for to build and so on. I mean,I am in the unfortunate position in some ways where - and this is not only me in the surrounding area - Where you actually have citizens with five acres of land and they are not allowed to build,or three or four acres of land. build. They are not allowed to Imagine!

Can any member in this House of Assembly picture· himself if his parents were in a position to give a young couple three acres of.land with the price of land the way it is today,and then being told that you are not allowed to build. Some of it is designated as farm land,but some of the farm land they have designated as such I swear on my honour you will grow· more potatoes right ~ere on this desk. You cannot grow potatoes on rocks that·I am aware of. And that is the kind of thing that sometimes we get so far removed from ·and which causes so much aggravation and torment for people.

How can they expect, how can some lady who is in a position~or gentleman, -to give their son,for example, or daughter three or four acres of land feeling that they are much better off than most people who in their lifetime are quite content to·get a normal building lot, and they are told that they cannot build. It is frightening what happens in some instances . This is why you are going to have,I suggest to you,enormous trouble,not only in this House but without,on Bill 50 that my friends opposite intend to bring in in the current session of the House of Assembly.

Now along this shore, the Conception Bay Shore, I am thinking

• • • • • • • • • •• June 12, 1978 Tape 4245 IB-2 MR. NOLAN: in terms of my own provincial jurisdiction where you have a divided jurisdiction,in my case at St. Phillip's,where my provincial responsibility is shared with the han. member for Mount .Scio (Dr. Winsor), And here is an area from St. Phillip's right on up that shor.e that has possibilities that have never really been explored. Fantastic! Because when you think of tourism, conventions and so on, many of them come in here to the city of St.

John's primarily because this is where a lot of the accommodation is centered,or on the West Coast, in Central Newfoundland, in the Grand Falls and/or Corner Brook areas. But here you have such a great, fantastic, untapped tourist resource that is absolutely staggering beyond belief, if ·We would only attempt to take advantage of the opportunity it is there . All too often we are too close to the forest to see the trees. ~/e are too close to it. He take things for granted in this Province, so many things.

Here you have a situation where you have people. come into this Province who never lived the way we do, near so much water, particularly a bay such as Conception Bay, never dream of it. Yet here we have it there and only the few,normally, the very, very few get an opportunity to take advantage of it. I think my friend from Foso (Capt. Winsor) mentioned something about those glass or plastic lined boats that I think he referred to. You see them· in places like Amsterdam,on the River Seine in Paris and other places as well.

But there are so many areas here that should be explored, one.,.as a tourist attraction for so many others and plus the opportunity that is out there for so many to go fishing or whatever they want to do. But we also have to provide facilities. The opportunities are there beyond belief. And when you talking about tourist dollars, you are talking about new dollars coming into this Province, not taking in each other washing and so on, new dollars that we need so badly in this Province. And it is enough to make you cry when I drive along that beautiful shore from St. Phillip's up through St.

Thomas along the whole' Conception Bay Road. I am thinking,of course,of

• • • • • • • • • • ~- June 12, 1978 Tape 4245 IB-3 MR. NOLAN: Paradise, Topsail, Chamberlains, going in through Manuels, Long Pond, Foxtrap, Kelligrews and on up to Seal Cove and extending of ocurse into Holyrood and so on. I mean here is something that we have. Here is something,! maintain,that with a minimum of investment we can get a good return on in any- number of ways.

• • • • • • • • • • June 12, 1978 .Tape No. 4246 F..T-1 !-'F'.. J. NOLAN : And . yet it is there, it is· lyinz on our doorstep, and I submit that tJe are not, or do not want, or through ·stupidity or acme thing.· 1ve an· doing very little of anything {,rith it. In fact, all too often these who are prepared, perhaps, to lay out some personal w.oncy by going into business for tourism, or fishing, or Hhatever it is, can find very little sympathy in tax relief in this regard.

Now I say again that here is a shore that has not been tapped and I beg those opposite, those who are supposed to be govern:!.ng, in the name of God, taY.e a good hard loci~ at it and see the potential that i$ thP.re.

I am not saying it is the only bay that should he developed touristically in this Province, I did not say that, '-ut I .::!" saying you have such an influx of visitors •.vho naturally in many instances come in here because it is the capital, because we have so much - not enough, perhaps - but so much accommodation and so on here, and I tell you no"' that here is a Hhole shore that really has not been tapped. I believe there are many dollars and I kn01v there would be great credit t.o Ne~~foundland from those 1vho have the opportunity tci enjoy i.t if He ever gi.ve them the chance.

AN R0N. ~E!l.: ct is the oldest city. YP • J . NOLAN : And the oldest city,as the hen. member say. I 1·•ould l:.ke, )!r. Speaker, to mention just briefly, as other members have, the great burden, and I say the great burden that any member shares ).n this Rouse of Assembly today is one of unemployment.

It is nice to catcall back and forth across the House, to say something ab·out me because I am a Li.beral, or you because you are PC,and so on, but the fact i.s that if you accept the fact that I live in the largest populated district in this Province then you also, I think, <•auld have to accept the fact that because there are more people there, there are more young people there, and so so, that they are crying out~ young people; right · no1v they are out of high school, they are comi.ng out of university.,;. and I might say adults, fathers, and so on, and >Jamen as t-Yell-•·•ho are desperately looking for jobs, desperately looking for e1j!ployment.

Although it has been said in this House and treated some,rhat

• • • • • • • • • • June 12, 1973 Tape No. 4246 RT- 2 MR. J. NOLAN: sarcastically that they are going to Alberta, they are going to ~ew Brunswick, they are going to Iran, or wherever, the fact ·is you can laugh all you like, it is happening. It is not ertough for me, ·I cannot tell the young people in my district, wait tHO or three years. Only an idiot \.rould. say it. You know, we will ~•ait, He will get rid of the Tories and everything Hill be all right. It is not that simple.

They are not prepared to take answers like that anymore, nor should they, incidentally • Here are people notv - I mean, are we all so old that we forget what it was like when we >Iere seventeen, eighteen, nineteen, ~·enty? Do we not remember?. You had to· get a job. You had· to find some direction in your life. You m~re led through school believing that when you finished Gtade XI, or your finished your course at the·university, or trade school, you would almost automatically come out and go into a job somewhere; somehov1 there would be a position for you.

But now, I have actually had mothers and fathers cryin3 on the telephone- I have been in their houses. I am not bluffing, I am telling yo.u the trutl~ - crying because the boy or the girl that stayed there for one month, two months, three months, a year and longer. The; parents do not want them to go to Alberta, they do not 1,•ant them to go to Iran, they·do not want them to go anywhere; they want to have the right for them to go if they want to but they do not want them forced out. We are forcing people out of this Province. Now what has gone wrong?

In 1971 the hon. gentlemen opposite came to po1-1er :- I would like to think that many that I know personally and I have t~.ownthem, ·not only because of my association in politics hut also in broadcasting over the years gave me in some respects a closer relationsh:f.p 1vith many than others may have had, - I believe with the best of intentions. I·believe they had the will 1 I hel.ieve that they had the desire. Unfortunately, I am not sure they kne•: sometimes Hhat they want