Volume 1 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SEVENTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND 1st. Session VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MAY 13, 1976 Number' 63 SPEAKER; THE HONOURABLE GERALD RYAN OTTENHEIMER

May 1.1,1976 Tape no. 2651 The House me~ at 2:00P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: l wish to draw to the attention of bon. members that we have in the gallery this afternoon a n~ber of students from the Adult Education Programme of the Canadian National Institute for the Blind, attending classes in St. John's along with three of their teaching staff, Mrs. Suvak, Mrs. Laurie and Miss Hickey. And I know all hqn. members join with me in welcoming these students and their teachers to the House of Assembly in expressing the hope that their visit will be an interesting and informative one.

SOME HON , MEMBERS : Hear , hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The bon, Minister of Forestry and Agriculture. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I have been getting a n~ber of calls recently on this year's anticipated forest fire season. So I had a briefing with the officials in the department. I thought it might be an idea at this point in time to bring the House and I hope the people up-to-date on jus.t what we are doing and what our intentions are in respect to forest fire fighting this Summer, I might mention this morning, Mr.

Speaker - and I have some of the facts by the way in case the press would like to report it which we would appreciate, any free publicity we can get - this morning May 13 I have the report of six fires on my desk that are, of course, out, One at 12:40 at Bay Bulls today which is out and one at the three mile bridge in Markland Road reported at 12:56, a small fire, and it is out now, one at Placentia Junction at 3:00 P.M. a small fire and that is out now. There was one reported at 3:00 P.M. yesterday in Victoria Carbonear. There was no report on the size of the fire. It was out yesterday afternoon.

One is teported three miles west of Island Pond Ridge on the Trans Canada at 4:20, and it was reported out at 7:45, There was one reported at English Harbour East at 5:35 and it was 7531

May 13 1976 Tape no. 2651 Page 2 - mw Mr. Rousseau. reported out at 11:00 P.M. last night. We had water bombers down there. It burned seven and one-quarter acres of grass and shrub. Before I give the details of what we are doing - I gave it in the House before - I would just like to point out to hon. members and to the people of the Province some of the figures that we have had for the last five years, and that is in the report I have. In 1971 we had 142 fires. In 1972 we had 216. In 1973 we had 102.

In 1974 we had 282 fires that burned 131,000 acres of forest resources of the Province, and last year, which was probably the worst year by everybody's admission since 1961, we had 253 fires and it burned 431,000 acres of timber land in the Province, And a total cost for fire protection of some $3.5 million. I have stated in some of the interviews that I have had in the press and publicly or any other opportunity I have had, that this Province cannot keep this level of fire infestation in the Province and retain the very valuable resource of timber that it has.

If this goes on year after year, after year, it will not be too long before we will not have to worry about the allocation of timber resources because we will have very little of it. I know thel!e are problems, and all we can do is ·ask people to take extreme caution. I would like to say now, Mr. Speaker, that the following forest fire protection facilities of the forestry branch are now operational or in some Northern areas in the process of being made operational. This year in the Eastern region eaoh un:l.t . consists of three men. At Paddy's Pond we will have two units.

At Whitbourne we will have two units, one unit at Salmon:ier and Cape Broyle, two at Clarenville, one in Southern Bay, Terra Nova and Winter land. In the central region, in Gamba we will have one unit, At Gander we will two units. At Lewisporte we will have one, Botwood one, Badger two, Sprindale two and Bay d'Espoir one. In Western we will have one at Sop's Aria, 7532

Hay 13, 1976 Tape no. 2651 Page 3 - lllW Mr. Rousseau. one at Roddickton, one at Port Saunders, one at Bonne Bay, two at Pynas Brook, which is becoming oure centre over on.the West Coast and two at St. George's. So Gor the total for the Island we have twenty-nine units with eighty-seven men operational in continuous forest fire protection procedures. Each unit consists of one ton tank truck with two high pressure fire pumps, 5,000 feet of foresty hose and sufficient hand tools to equip up to twenty-five men.

Large stocks of fire suppression equipment are kept in readiness at Gander and are available at short notice to be moved anywhere in the Province. In the Labrador region, Mr. Speaker, we will have fourteen men at Goose Bay, three at Cartwright and three in Labrador City. Sufficient equipment is available at Cartwright or Labrador City for a routine operation. Large stocks are kept in readiness at Goose Bay to be moved whenever required. We have five water bombers and they will be available for forest fire suppression·. The allocation will be one at St . John's, two at Gander this year. Instead of two at St.

John's and one at Gander as we had last year we now have two at Gander and one at St. John's, because Gander, of course, serves a much larger area in the central part of the Province, one at Deer Lake and one at Goose Bay. The bombers are currently operational at St. John's and Gander, and will be based at Deer Lake in Goose Bay when required. We have one presently on loan to the Nova Scotia government which we do each and which is recallable at a moment's notice. And as soon as the advice is there that we should call it back, and this may happen at any time now, we will certainly call that water bomber back.

With the -loan to Nova Scotia, we do that with Quebec. It is back the middle of June anyway. But we can call it back at a moment's notice. It is no cost to this government by the way, Mr. Speaker, because all the operational coats and lodgings and traaaportation is paid by the government. We do have 7533

Hay 13 1976 Tape no. 2651 Page 4 - mw Hr. Rousseau . a Rystem of co-operation with the other governments across the country in the event of forest fires. We have seven helicopters available through air services in the Department of Transportation and Communications. Top priority, of course, for these helicopters will be given to forest fire control operations. And the helicopters will be based as follows: St. John's one, Gander two, one at Deer l.ake, one at St. Alban's, two at Goose Bay.

And a floa t equipped otter aircraft will be based at Goose Bav for use i n the for est fire detection and suppression as well. As well this morning or effective yesterday we might have had one small operation still in progess this morning, but we have cancelled the blueberry cont rol burning because of the fires of today. We will resume, of course, in the Fall when the forest fire hazard dim.in1shes. . In respect to the forest fire haza rd index 1-1e have not int roduced that yet .

We hope to introduce it some::ime next week, but I am told by officials that we need a very heavy rainfall, because we have to see what the trees are like at that point in time, and we will establ.ish the index henceforth from that point. 753<1

May 13, 1976 Tape 2652 PK- 1 :-lr. Rousseau: The index will be established hopefully sometime next week, but right after a heavy rainfall. We understand there is some rain on the Hest Coast today and it is headed towards Central Newfoundland, if we get it out here and it is a heavy enough rainfall maybe ~e will he able to establish a forest fire index later this week or earlier next week. Each region, Mr. Speaker, the East, Central, t~est and Labrador regions in an autonomous region in respect_to the forest fire operations.

Ithas its o•m dispatcher and its own radio network within the region, and there is always somebody on standby there twenty-four hours a day. The headquarters for the liaison building is Building 810 here in Pleasantville.

We have two men on from nine to nine each day, seven days a week and also people on standby and for the press, for other people we will be sometime next week giving out a number of phone nunbcrs with the rotation so that somebody will always be able to get a hold to somebody to find out just what the situation is in respect to a forest fire or to report a forest fire, so those numbers will be made public. t-le have a liaison man primarily who handles calls frem the press or people who call in on a forest fire information situation. HR • SI1ALLWOOD: 11R. ROUSSEAU: There are no calls now are there? No, no.

But we also have - we are starting this year, and we are going to re nble to establish in Eastern and Central Newfoundland a brand ne•' communications network that will be very helpful. Next year it will go into ~!estern Newfoundland and in Labrador, and we will be able to contract each other throughout the whole Province in respect to forest fire fighting. We also have established, as we have in the past, a senior management committee for advice to the minister as an Emergency Fire Committee. Hr.

Speaker, although I nor people in the department are experts we expect a normal season of forest fires at this point in time. Of course rain will always help, But if we have a very dry May and June or July,of course,that hope that we have may not come true, but 7535 (

t<ay 13, 1976 Tape 2652 PK - 2 ''r • .r,ousseau: we rlo at this point in time expect a normal season. And I can only reiterate to the people of the Province as I have reiterated in this House on .!! I'.UI'!ber of occasions that our timber resources are very iT'Iport<~n. t to the Province, and certainly one t~ould not want to see the same thing happen to them as happened to our fishery. One of the biggest dangerous to our timber resources, of course, is forest fire.

And I can only ask that all people who travel in the woods this Summer display extreme caution with this very valuable reso~rce and we will be talking about that later. So that is the situation in re-spect 0ur outlook this year and what ve are going to be doing in respect to the forest fire protection for the Province. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES HR • S.PF.MEll : The bon. }!inister of Mines and Energy. HON. J. C. CROSBIE: I would like to present for tabling in the Pouse the Annual Report of Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro for the year ended December 31, 1975.

It also contains the financial statements for the year and other :l.nformation that might be of interest to the hon. gentlemen, such as my picture. upon request. Autographed copies can be provided ORAL QUESTIONS MR . SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile followed by the bon. member for Terra Nova. MR. S. A. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Finance if the netv agreement between the government and Fishery Products Limited signed in March is an indication of the government's intention to nationalize all fish plants that owe substantial amounts of money to the government in the way of loana or guarantees? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. HON . W. C • DOODY: The answer is, no, Your Honour. There is no such int ention of government to nationalize fish plants in the Province. Wl. NF.ARY: A supplementary quest!on, Sir. ~ m. SPF.AKER: A supplementary? 75311

Hay 13, 1976 Tape 2652 PK - 3 l'IR. NEARY: Would the minister indicate to the House if the 300,000 preferred shares that were to be created and issued in the name of the Newfoundland Government, has that part of the agreement been lived up to yet? HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mlt. DOODY: To my knowledge all of the covenants of the agreement are being satisfied, Your Honour. If there is anything to the contrary I will certainly find out for the hon. gentleman. MR. NEARY: ~IR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. A supplementary.

Perhaps for the benefit of the members who are not familiar with this agreement, would the minister give the House some details as to what led up to the government having to take such drastic steps with Fishery Products, in almost taking control of the companyi' 1·fuat led up to this, would the minister tell the House? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Your Honour, I do not know if that question is in order or not, I guess it is. In any event, Sir, I am not going to quarrel with that.

If there is some particular aspect of any particular agreement or set of circumstances that the hon. member wishes some information on I ~Jill be only too happy to arrange to get it for l1im. I have no intention of getting into a lengthly diaaex-tation on the agreement with Fishery Products and the government at the present tme. 'm. NEARY: }lr. Speaker, a supplementary question. ~. SPEAKER: A supplementary. }fR.

NEARY: Would the minister tell the House the names of the government representatives on ~he Management Committee of Fishery Products Limited under the new agreement negotiated With that company? \~o are the representatives of the government? "m. SPF.AlrER: l'IR. DOODY: The bon. Minister of Finance. As I understand it, if my memory serves me correctly, the Deputy ~finister of Finance and the Deputy Minister of Fisheries. IIR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. 7537

May 13, 1976 Tape 2653 PK - 1 "fr.: SJ>F.AKF.R : I 1dll allow one .more further supplementary, and tlt~n J t.•ill have to aRK to give the floor to some other bon, gentleman. MR. NF.ARY: Can the minister assure the House that Fishery Products Limited ia living up to the part of the agreement concerning insurance of property and the crews of trawlers,that they will be covered under I think it is cailed the Merchant Seamen Compensation Act on account of loss of life or injury, has that part of the agreement been lived up to, could the minister tell the House. MR. SPP..AKY::R: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: I have no information to the contrary, Your Honour. I will certainly l~ok into it if the bon. member wishes me to. Obviously he must have some cause for concern in that area, and I will certainly check it out. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: HR. T. LUSH: No, when he first kDew about the agreement The hon. member for Terra Nova. I have a question for the Minister of Education with respect t·o the department's policy respecting the free textbook policy for students Grade IV to VIII, particularly as it relates to the payment for wilfully destroyed books.

Teachers and principals are von4ering what const i tutes a wilfully. destroyed book. They are wending what happens if a book is lost or if a book is stolen. They do not kno"' who is S!ll'l'OIIed to collect . the money, they do not knm~ to ~~hom they are sup.,osed to ·send the money when it is ·collected;· whether it is the school iloard or whether indeed the school gets it. '!'he 1~hnle thin~ seems to be vague to principals and teachers.

So the question to the minister is what does the minister intend to do to i Mpr<>Ve upon this rath er vague and confusing pe>licy vith respect to the · free textbook policy? .!..T.· SPI:I\Kf.R: llON. \J. HOUSE : The bon. Minister of Education • This is a very detailed question and obviously I d 0 not have the answer. I will take it as notice and try and get the information for the hon. gentleman. ''R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. 7 53:~

Hay 13, 1976 • · Tape 2653 PK- 2 }fR. I. STRACHAN: I have a question for the ~!inister of Industrial Development. There was great concern in Labrador South concerning the formation of the Labrador Coastal Development Corporation, and there has been quite a number of rumours about its possible impending for.atlon later tbi• year. I wonder if the minister would like to bring us up to date with the possibility of the formation of this corporation soon? MR. SPF.AKER: The hon. ~inister of Industrial Development. EON. J . LUNDRIGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I am not sure I can bring him up to date on the precise answer to his question, but there wtll be SCJ!IIe announcement relative to tbt particular thiq in the next week. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I have a question, Sir, for the Minister without Portfolio, the Government House Leader.

In view of the fact that the minister has now h~d representation from !he Knight's of Columbus, 'fhe Star of the Sea, several groups associated with the National Historic Association in connection with the new flag, Would the minister now indicate if the minister has consulted with his colleagues as he promised the House he would do a couple of days ago to bve the debate ~stponed or will the Minister of Tourism's statements supercede the minis~er's that the debate was going ahead tmmaterial of the representation of the~e groups? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister without Portfolio. HON. R. WELLS: Mr.

Speaker, the representations that have been received have been replied to. The debate, of course, on the flag has not been called yet, and there is time yet for proper representations to be made by all of these . groups. I replied to their letter pointing out that the government intended to bring the flag issue and the Act on for debate this year. But that is not immediate, And I asked them to make whatever representations they had to the Minister of Tourism either in writing or by coming to see him. And I have spoken to the Minister of Tourism and he is ready to receive any representations made. 753!1

~fay 13. 1976 Tape 2653 PK - 3 1-IR. SPEAKER: The hon. 'llll!lllher for Trinity l$ay de Vud(l. MR.. F. 'ROWE: Mr. Speaker. a queaticm for the Mi~ister of Municipal llff. ;si~s an4 Rousiili• Sir. is the .1iliuiater awate of the fact that there are p~;!ople ;l.n the Province who live in an incorporated eamanmity and who wor~ in another iDcoJ:11orated community but who pay taxes in yet e third ;lncot"Porated cOIIIIUJlity and not neeessarl,ly in the incorporated coammity in Which they work or in •ieb they live? And i!l th:is pt~saible under tile Local Government Act? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of MunicipeJ.

Affairs and Housing. I would like for the · hem. IIIC!'I$er to repeat the question if be would. !!!\• F, RoWE: Sir • when I 1eazned of it I was quite eazed - is the minister aware of the £act· that a person who lives . .in an incorporated eolDIDtnity (a); works in an ineiJlliOrated cq11111unity (b) 75a0

:-lay 13, 11J76 '):ape 2654 PK - 1 l!r. 1". Rowe: can elect to pay taxes in an inc~rporated area (

c) where he neither works nor lives. 1-IR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Hunicipal AffairP and Housing. The question is very difficult to answer, if he has property in that community (

c) I think he is liable for some taxation from t~e municipality, but then the question is also what is he paying in (

a) and (b). I cannot give you a direct answer to it, ~m. ROWE: A supplementary. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~m. PECKFORD: ~lr. Speaker, if I could just have the floor for a second. To answer the question - the an!IWer to the question is "No". !ffi. ROHE:· What is , no? A supplementary~ MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Bay de Verde. tm. ROWF.: The minister is not aware of the fact, is that what the minis~er is saying no to? 'ffi. l'FCKFORn: Yes. To my knowledge,rather. MR. ROWE: IJould the minister undertake to check this matter out, llr. Speaker, and find out if a person is paying taxes in say that third conwnunity (

c) whether he is liable to pay a tax in either the community which he resides or the one in which he works under the Act? 'IR. PECKFORD: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will undertake to get the information tn twenty-four hours and have · it for the hon. member tomorrow afternoon. HI!.. ROI~: I thaJ;~k the minister. VR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellewe. MR. w. CALJ:AN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the lion. Miniate·r of !!unicipal Affairs and Rousing.

What progress is being made or has been made l~ith rep.:ards to changing the Act whereby a person who works :In an incorporrted area but lives in an non-incorporated area wh.ere there is garbage collection? Right now such a person is not covered, he is forced to pay in the incorporated area. Is there anything being done to change that Act? 75 ·il

·~ay 13, 1'}76 Tape 2654 PK - 2 '1P.. s r f'.Ai'l'.ll: The hon. '!inister of Nunicipal Affairs and Housing. ~!.!::_._!'.!:..f:I:I'ORO:_ 'l'hnt hns been under review for a couple of years, and He wi11 be djscussinp, it later as legislation comes before this House jn this session. There are pros and cons on both sides of that issue. An~ I will be proposing the position of the department and rovcrnment later on in this session. ~m. SPF.JIY.El': The hon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. ~ember for Terra Nova. I!R. Nr.A.RY: Hr.

Speaker, t~ould the Minister of Provincial Affairs nnd the Environment, Sir, enlighten the House and the public, the reorle of the Goulds area, the rights of the new proposed dump for the Goulds areas on the Shoal Bay Road, I believe it is to be located. Hhat is right1 !las it been aproroved? Has the minister's department approved it? Ts it to be a city dump or just a dump for the local residents in that area? Who has purchased the land? Is it the r.overnwent or the Town Council in the Goulds? Can, the minister give us some infomatf.on on this matter? ''IR..

SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment. liON. A. J. MU~.PilY: Mr. Speaker, the first int~ation 1 had where there Pas a,ny objection to it was on the news at dinner hour, and 1 think ~he hon. J!lembe:r this morning informed me about it. But as far aiJ 1 am a>,•are it is p r~~j.onal waste disposal site. Ue do not have dumps any more.

ABd it replace• · one that presently exists at Bay Bulls - which to my knowledge is being phased out at the end of July- and will serve the :trea of Petty Harbour, Goulds, B!!Y Bulls and Witless Bay, and it is on ~ road I think called the Shoal Bay Ro~d some mille :md-a-ltalf or two mile!! in. And as far as I am concerned,who owns the property I really do not know, but I presume any government clepar~ent w£luld not authorize a waste disposal site on private land or anythiug 111-e that. B\tt 1 can get that rnatter cleared up if the hon.member w:l.~hes.

Hha owns t;he land, 1 do not have the faintest idea really. !!..:_1~ "'ll.. SPF.AKER : Jl supplementary. A supplementary, 754~

1\fay 13, 197fi Tape 2654 PK- 3 "fl!. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, no wonder it came as a surprise beeause obviously the matter had been kept secret up to now. Is the aiuister 8!·7are of that, that the people - mt. MURPHY: That il not a fact. MR. NEARY: Well would the minister - ~. 'Mtl!U'RY: It might be secret from the member for LaPoile. Perhaps his other otherwise informed agency was not aware of wha~ was happening. MR. NEARY: My ysual. reliable source of information from the Goulds I area, Sir, tells me that the people tg that area did not know one single thing about that dump until within the last few days.

SOME RON. }!EMBERS : Oh, oh! HR. SPEAKER: Order, please! 1m. NEARY: Would the min!s~er tell the House where the application originated from? And is it going to be on Crown land or will the land be purchased fr0111 private individull• in the area for this reg.ionat dump? MR • SPE,\KER: The hon. Minister of Provincial Aff~rs and the Environment. MR.' MUlU'HY: I will take notice, Sir. lully I do 110t lalov, of the seven hundred and eighty odd applications, where thi• ODe originated from, but I can certainly check with my officials and find out.

MR., NEARY: The minister will find out before the night is over. tm, ~PF.AKER: Order: The hon, member for Terra Nova. MR, MURPHY: Is that a threat or a promise? 7543

May ],), 1976 Tape No. 2655 MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the hon! Minister of Education. The minister no doubt is aware of t.he fact that the Te.chers' Pensions Act is presently discriminatory with respect to married women. Sr;:IME HON. MEMBERS: Oh! Oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please: Before I interrupt the bon.

NM- 1 gentleman I would request hon. membera1 and this is similar to a request I made a few days ago, and that is there are~to the best of my knowledge. two ways in which points of order made either by intervention of the ~ir or a member rising on a point of order and statin~ specifically what it is • I would ask bon. members if they beli~ve that order has been broken, that there is a po~nt of order, if they would rise and state it because this would certainly be of assistance to the Chair and to other hon. members. There was one bon. member whom I interrupted, I believe it was the hon. member for Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush), MR. LUSH: Is ·the minister aware that the Teachers' Pension Act, as it relates to married women i~ iiscriminatory and what action is being taken? MR. SPf.AKER: T~e bon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: That question came ~p earlier in the year from another person and my answer th~ to the fact was that it does appea.r to be discriminatory. There is a cOIIIIIdttee set up by the NTA and the Department of Finance looking at the whole matter of pensions. The discriminatory part of it I think is the fact that the female married teacher is put on the three per cent which does not cover the family.

But I believe there is a provision there that if the female married teacher is the breadwinner in the family she can elect on application to go to the four per cent. But as you saw in the Auditor General's Report,of course, there is some contention about the intent of the teachers pension

May 13, 1976 Tape No, 2655 NM- 2 MR. HOUSE: scheme, the way it is being paid and that whole matter is under review and vill have to go before the House in some new legislation, So it is still under review and I have not had any change since the last tfme I answered the question about five months ago. MR, LUSH: A supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member has a supplementary. MR. LUSH: Just what is the nature of the review. Is there a eommittee set up to look specifically into this matter or just what? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Mini!lter of Edueat:l,on. HR.

LUSH: Well the.intent from the NTA is to try anC have no discri~ination between the feaale married teacher and the -.le 11arried teachf!r. That is the intent. I do not know what the legialation will be. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. m~er for Lewisporte. HR. WHITE: Hr. Speaker, a question for the Hiniater of H\Dlicipal Affairs and Housb.g. Wol,l].d the minister confirm for the House~or tell the House,whether or not his Deputy Minister has resigned? If he has given reasons for his resignatf.on and if a new De!'uty Minister has been appointed? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR.

PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I will be -.king an announcement on that veri shortly. HR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for LaPoile followed by the bon. member for Windsor - Bu~s. }ftl. nARY: A question ·for the Minister of Pinance, Sir. Would the Minister of Finance tell the Bouse if it is correct that Deputy Ministers and other high ranking government officials have been given subetantial increases in the last few weeks and in the case of thl Deputy Minister of Finance as much as $2,400 of an increase?

May 13, 1976 Tape No. 2655 NM- 3 MR. SPF.AKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, there has been a management pay plan proviaion. There have been certain increases awarded to the various management people. What the exact amounts were I do not have in front of me right now. There have been management pay plan increases given to the senior civil servants in recent months. MR. NEARY:~ A aupplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR.. NEARY: Would the minister indicate if these salary increases have been submitted to the Federal Anti-Price and Wage C0111111ittee? MR..

SPF.AKER; MR. DOODY: The bon. Minister of Finance. Under our agreement with the Government of Canada and indeed under the agreement which all the provinces have entered into with the Government of Canada,it is essential, we have to by law report all pay increases in the Public Service to the Anti-Inflation Board. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. KR· SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, would the minister indicate to the House whether or not the minister will table a list of all those who received increases in top management and would the minister also indicate.while the minister is on his feet.if this will set a precedent for ne~~tiations for bargaini~ with the variou~ groups for increases along the lines that have been received by the top management people. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of 1!'1Jlance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I have no intention of tabling such a list .in the first place.

In the second place there is not a matter of eetablishing a precedent in dealing with the various public service unions because of the fact that the various public service unions have received very substantial increases in recent years. MR. N!ARY: Will they get the same generous increase?

May 13, 1976 Tape 2656 PK - 1 MR. DOODY: Will the bon. member permit me to answer? Are you finished? ~m. NEARY: I am just asking a further question. MR. LUMDRIGAR: You '~ill have to stand up if you want to ask a further question. MR. NEARY: A supplementary. Will the various unions that are negotiating with the g6vernment now get the same generous offer that the toD manRgement people got, the same consideration? t-1R. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: r1r. Speaker, the answer to that question is going to be resolved in the collective bargaining process.which is now ongoing.

I understand the union and the Treasury Board staff are trying to work out an arr~gement. It would be most improper for me to suggest what the answer will be. MR. LtlNDRIGAN: Hear, hear! A reasonable and rational deed. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. trember for Windsor.-Buchans. MR. G. FLIGHT: Mr. ~peaker, this question is for the Minister of Finance or the hon. House Leader under who's jurisdiction it might fall. Is the Pub1ic Relations Firm of Mr. George McLean presently under the employ, doing any work under contract or any other arrangements for the Newfoundland Government in the Public Relations field? MR.

DOODY: Not for the government. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Tite bon. member has a supplementary. !fR. FLIGHT: Can the minister inform the House if there is any f.ntention of having the Public Rel!ltions Firm of Mr. George McLean do work in this fiscal year? Has funds been provided in the estimate that we were not allowed to debate for the retention of Mr. George l!aclean in this fiscal year? l.fR. DOODY: Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, I am not quite certainly whether the member is addressing the question to me or to the House Leader. UR. FLIGHT: MR.

DOODY: The Minister of Finance,if he is prepared to answer. To the best of my knowledge, you know, certainly not 7547

~- ra y J 1, 1 <'1711 Tape 2656 PK - 2 'Tr. noody: 1.n the nepartment of F:l.nance is there any vote for work for a Tluhlic 'Pelat:! .ons firrn •. What is in the other department , perhaps it mipht h_e hest to direct it to that one. I think the proper thing for a quention like that is on the Order Paper so it can be looked into and researched in ti~e. I do not have the answer, except for tile nepnrtmcnt of Finance. A suppJP.mentary. "P. SrEAKEP. : The hon. gentleman has a · further supplementary. !·m. JI'LICHT: --~--- The question tJas not whether or not there tmuld be pul,l:l!=- relations Hark clone.

The question w11s is there any consideration h0ing ~1vcn to having the Firm of George McLean do any public relations work? MR. NEARY: It is only hypothetical. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. ~tlnister of Finance. •m. ooonY: That is a difficult question to answer. I imagine there has been consideration given to a great number of things over the past year, and I hope there will be consideration given to a great numl··er. of thinps in the comin~ year. Whether that will be one of the things thnt will he considered or has been considered is something really that is not in my setup to answer.

So, you know, why that particular gentleman is being named as one who is worthy of consideration escapes me at the present time, but I guess there must be some deep signiffcance to it. •m. ~PEA~ER: The hon. member for Eagle River. HP.. T. STRACl AN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of !lunicipal Affairs.

In view of the fact that the estimates for the water and sewer system in the community of Cartwright has been given as nv~r $3 million, a figure which the Council in Cartwright and myself and I believe the minister hiBISelf feels it is totally unrealistic• does the minister have any plans to have other companies look at the project tc- come ur t,r:fth a more realistic figure? "R. ~ P EAKER: The han. Hinister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Yes, l'r. Speaker, we do, and we have indicated that we

H11.y 13, 197!; Tape 2656 PK- 3 ' !r. Peckford: ' 'nnt n rliffercnt ~·ind of survey done to try to reduce the cost and yPt provide services. So we have changed the terms of reference of the firm that is studying the system and studying the distribution system and the source and so on. So we have changed ·the terms of rPference to include some experimental kind of system which might reduce the overall capital cost. A supplementary. 1'R. SPFAKFR: A supplementary.

YF • f'T'RAClWT: Could the minister tell us whether the company looking nt th e project •·ms paid from the department for the survey that they carried out? "'R. SPEAKF.!l : The h0n. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. "R. PFr.KFORD: ------ 11ell, ~~r. Speaker, the survey was stopped because we asked for preliminary estimates so we would not get into any high cost on the design until we had some idea of the capital cost. The actual payment of money to them for the preliminary work,! can only hn:o:nrd a guess at that,hecause I do not have it before me, and I could n0t ~ive you definitively an answer to it.

I can only hazard a guess by saying for preliminary work I imagine they were paid. But the terms of refereuce Here changed half way through when \ile got the pre l i~inary estimate, and that is the only kind of answer I can give dr,ht now. 1·11'. STRACHAN: A further supplementary. HR. SPEAKER: A further supplementary. 11R. STRACHAN: r.ould the minister find out for the House how much the company was paid for that survey. ~ ffi. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. STRACHAN: Yes I will, Mr. Speaker. '·'R.

SPF.AKFP.: ~1e hon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. mC'mhC' r for HellPvue. HR. NFARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the hon. Premier, Sir, in connection with the rental of office space now for the government. Could the Premier outline for the House r.•hether or not the agreement with Trizec is off? And if the government

Tape 2656 PK - 4 ~. __ "'E'~ry: t.nvc- hc-C'n appro::~chcct hy t' r. ~'o r e an or Mr. Andrew Crosbie to try and rPrs u P~e t~e ~over.n~~nt to rent space in Atlantic Place? And is t't" ;nv('Tr.l'lent s;<>ir.~ to rent srace in Atlantic Place? And t hirdly , wllllt is happeni. ng to the nobbin dea l, is tbat still on or i s it off? !':1:-t is till! s ituatit:m notr regardin~ renting of office space fo-r the ;ovl'rn"'f!nt c-ff1.ccs? ·"'. !"PP..W"": The f1nn. P-rcmier. !'"t}l!rn "N'I~"": first of all in answer t o

May 13, 1976 Tape No. 2657 NM- 1 PREMIER KK)RES : the first question, Mr. Speaker, there never was any_ agreement as such to my knowledge witlt Trizec. Secondly, regarding Where the government is going to rent space is under consideration right now and when we have made up our minds we will gladly pass that information along. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Spe~. MR.

SPEAKER: Before recognizing the bon. gentleman for a supplementary I would like to point out for all bon, members that in order to get reasonable and equitable and fair proportionality When a nUIIber of 11embers willh to speak that I would aalt hon. members to, I mean there ia a process of supplementaries,but to keep to one question at a time . Because if one asks several then one is being recognized once but in a sense one is being recongatzed perhaps four or five tt.ea or for four or five questions.

And thia is,I think 1in general, I 8111 not -.king this with reference to any one particular member, In general there is· that temptation,! think, to group questions together

whereas it would be preferable to do it as supplementaries. The hon. member for LllPo:tle. MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the bon, the PreNier. In connection with the rental of office space whether it b~ fr0111 Atlantic Place, Mr. Dobbin or Trizec, would the Pr~er indicate if public tenders would be called for the rental of office space or just what procedure will be used in - MR. LUNDRIGAN: For rental a tender call? MR. NEARY: Calling of tenders, yes, for rental. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREHIER MOORF.S: Mt.

Speaker, as I have said before, it can be done on a proposal basis, It can be on tendering if it is for a particular building, but it is impossible to tender space which -.y have different criteria. Some space may have different, well not just cost but different amenities and all the things that make up what 1pace 11e~, 75J1

May 13, 1976 Tape No. 2657 NM- 2 PREMIER MOORES: what partitions are there, what services are there and so on. Ottawa, and none of the other ~rovinces tender to my knowledge fer that sort of proposal. What they do is call a proposal and accept what seems to be the most beneficial to the government. MR. NEARY: A supplementary then, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Could the Premier tell the House if the government have invited proposals in recent weeks in connection with the rental of office space and if so what firms have they asked for quotes? PREMIER MOORES: Not in recent weeks, Mr. Speaker. MR.

NEARY: In recent months. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: My question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. In the case of municipalities which border on the Trans-Canada, for example Whitbourne, Chap~l Arm, Come By Chance, Sunnyside, how close to the Trans-Canada Highway does the municipal boundary run? MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know. 'I could not answer that. The hon. member should either put that on the Order Paper or pay a vi*it to the Department of Municipal Affairs and Housing. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Forestry and A~riculture, Sir, I believe the minister is within hearing - yes, there is the minister coming. I want to ask the mtaister what action if any the minister has taken or the government have taken on the matter of leased agricultural land, a new nolicv that the farmers seem to be very disgruntled about and expressed vezy great concern to the minister reeently during a meeting in Gander? Has the government now abandoned that idea? Bas the minister put the proposal

Ma,Y 13, 1976 Tape No, 2657 NM- 3 HR. NEARY: before his colleagues as he promised the farmers he would do? Just what is the situation now on this new policy of leased agriclJltural land? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Forestt:y and Atriculture. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, it coaes as an abeolute shock to me ~hat ther~ are disgruntled farmers because I have been meeting with them and I do not know that they are disgruntled but maybe they are saying something to me and saying something different to the member from LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) but I am absolutely shocked thst they are disgruntled, I have explained everything to them and I have had the farmers in and I have also had the people f~om Kilbride,! ~elieve it was, the GOulds area who presented the petition. They came in to see me and give their views. It is presently under consideration by government and when we have a reply tt will be given. But I am not aware at all that the farmers are disgruntled. The situation has been explained to them.

The people ~ho sent the petition into the House of Assembly thmaugh the hon. the House Leader, they came• in to see me personally as well as present the petition. I talked to them u well. Thev know t}le situation. As soon as a decision is arrived at it will ' be communicated. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, obviously the minister does not read the mo~ing newspap~ MR. PECKP'ORD: A ~int of order, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the - MR. PECKFORD: A point of order. HR. SPEAKER: A point of order h~ been raised.

I must ask the bon. member to take his seat. MR. PECKFORD: The bon. member for LaPoile has juat got up and made a number of observations. This is question period and as far as I understand it there is in the Standing Orders (31 B) - "Oral questions must not be prefaced by the reading of letters, 75:J3

May 13, 1976 TApe No. 2657 NM 4 MR. l'ECKFORD: telegrams, newspaper extracts or

preambles of any kind." I submit that in the recent business or phraseology used by the hon. member for LaPoile he was preambling a question. · MR. SPEAKER: On that point of order, 75j~

May 13, 1976 Tape NO, 2658 NM- 1 MR.

SPEAKER: I would draw hon. aellbers attention to "c", while obviously being aware that •b" is there, "In putting any oral questions, no argument or opinion is to be offered nor any facts stated except insofar •• may be neceaaary to explain the same;" and I think the plarase or sentence the hon. minister took exception to was indeed the statement of an opinion which certainly was not necesssary for the understanding of the question that was with relation to his doubt that the hon. minister had read the papers or some such thing and certainly a stateaent of that kind of opinion is strictly -speaking out of order, The hon. member for LaPoile.

MR. lEARY: I realized it wheB I said it,Your Honour;it was out of order. But I got the message acroas to the hon. minister I hope, Sir. Would the Minister of Forestry and Alriculture - MR. PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. NEARY: tell the House, Mr. Speaker . .:.. MR. PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order has been raised, MR. PECKFORD: "I got bhe message across to the hon. minister," is again totally unnecessary &ld contravanes the number of the subsections of Standing Order 31 that you just referred t~ Your Honour. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr.

Speaker, if I may speak to that point of order too. You know - MR. SPEAKER: I hope the hon. minister will make it brief. MR. ROUSSEAU: Very brief, Mr. Speaker, but I think it is a matter of printiple here, I am going to bring it up today, sometimes to what extent a minister is responsible for what is in a newspaper. You know,the newspaper may not reflect exactly wkat the minister said, and I think that when questions come out of the newspaper it shouLI be given in that context. It is possible that the newspaper

~ay 13, 1976 Tape No. 2658 NM- 2 MR . ROUSSEAU: has not accurately reported what the minister or any member might have said. MR. SPEAKER: I have to dispose of this point of order and actually Standing Order 31 (

c) and (

d) I think are the operative parts, one about prefacing with extracts. from Dewspspers, telegr~s, letters, etc., and (

c) that there should be nothing offered by way of argument or opinion except as is necessary to explain the question. So the point of order is a well made one but we will have to wait until tomorrow to hear the hon . gentleman's questiou because the time has now transpired. ORDERS OF THE DAY: On motion that the House resolve itself into Committee of Ways and Means, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, - MR. CROSBIE: Say it like it is, now. MR. SIMMONS: Right. Yes. Just like the member for St. John's West wrote it for me. Mr.

Speaker, it has now been eight weeks since the Budget was brought down. Eight weeks tomorrow as a matter of fact I believe and it is difficult MR. PECKFORD: It is almost time for the anniversary. MR. SIMMONS: The minister from Green Bay is correct. It is almost time to have a Budget anniversary, let alone a Budget Speech. But it is .eight weeks and he helps to reinforce the point.

It is eight full weilks now since we had this budget brought down, eight weeks tomorrow and it does make it somewhat difficult to know how to approach the subject because it is no longer a very current subject in the sense that it has been long since in the public mind for eight weeks. At the •ame time the hardships that this budget inflicts on the people of this Province are very current. 75:JG

May 13, 1976 Tape No. 2658 NM- 3 MR. SIMMONS : I would have preferr.ed to h,ave been able to, . respond to tl:te Budget within a few days after , its bavin& been brought down but · the government has elected, I would S4Y rather deliberately, Mr, Speaker, t'o have things happen otheprise in this House, Here we are eigpt weeks after the · event given t.he first oppo.rtunity • The record will ' . show that I am n.ow the .first melllber of the House who has been able to address myself to the ~udget Speeeb debate. This is the first tiln.e the debate ~ been called l:ly the Goverbmebt House Leader. MR.

LIJNl>RIGAN: Th.e luln. !llelllber can say that tbey have bad seventy-five hours of debate. MR. Si:MMONS: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am glad that the member . for. Grand Falls (}f_r, Lundrl .gan) helped 111e to get to my poi,.nt a little mo.re quickly. IJe is right. We have h·ad aeventy-f.ive notirs of budg~t debate and I have been one of the persona who baa participated in that seventy-five hour period and I will tell you why, Mr. Speaker, 75 'J 7 I'·

May 13, 1976 Tape 2659 PK- 1 Mr , S ini!DOOS : hecause we "'e re the victims of a very deliberate strategy by govern­ ment not to call the Budget debate beforehand as they should have done . Indeed in Ottawa as members of the House will know the rules prevent, and the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) will know this, the government calling the estimates or the Committee of Supply to debate on the estimates of the various departments, prevent calling those estimates until they have had a period to debate the budget. And I say to the member for Grand Falls - MR. SMALLWOOD: The Speech from the Throne. MR.

SIMMONS: I am sorry, that is right. The member corrects me, and I thank the member from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood). The rule actually relates not to the Budget Speech Debate but to the Speech from the Throne, the Address in Reply. MR . SMALLWOOD : Which we heard over five months ago. MR . SrMHONS: That is right. And as the member for Twillingate reminds me that we are not talking two months now as in the case of the budget here, but we are talking about five months, we are talking since sometime last Fall when we heard the Throne Speech.

And as I remember one or two people in the House did get to speak in that debate and it has not been called since. Now, Mr. Speaker, whatever the rules are in Ottawa I believe my point is made insofar as the sequence of events is concerned. The Throne Speech is the government's general statement of intention in terms of programmes for the year,in terms of legislation and so on. It is followed by something else that is general but somewhat more specific than a Throne Speech,that is a budget statement which outlines in physical terms what the government plans are.

It tells how the govern­ ment intends to finance its programme of activity for the year ahead. And then we get even more specific. We are given the estimates, the estimates of revenue and expenditure for the several departments. We go from the very general the statement of prog~ammes, the Throne Speech to the Budget, how that programme is going to be carried out financially to the estimates of the various departments, the details of how that money is to be spent and how it is to be collected as revenue. And it seems to

May 13, 1976 Tape 2659 PK- 2 Mr. Simmons: me that common sense alone would dictate that the debates in this House ou&ht to proceed in the SaMe order. We ought to be enabled, allowed by the government House Leader and the government to debate at some length, not ad nauseam, not forever, but for a period the Address in Reply, the so-called Throne Speech Debate. And then after that we ought to be allowed to debate in the Budget Debate, and then the estimates.

That is not the way it happened and as a result we have been obliged, I know I have been obliged as one member of this House to say many of the things in Committee, in the Committee of Supply, the debate on the estimates,to say many of the things in Committee that were general enough in tone and in substance to have been said really in either an Address In Reply debate or in a Budget debate. I made fairly general comments, for example, relating to some programmes and proposed programmes for the Department of Education.

I believe the appropriate place to have made many of these comments would have been either in the Address in Reply or in the Budget debate. But in responding to the comments of the member for Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan) some minutes ago in saying that we had a seventy-five hour Budget debate he is right, but if I were him I would not say it too often because he is to blame, and his colleagues in Cabinet are to blame for that circumstance where we have been forced to use the seventy-five hours that should have been used in a fairly informal exchange getting answers to various queries,about various matters within the estimates. We were obliged as a result of the government's strategy to use up our estimate time in fairly general Budget debate.

Because we had no guarantee until this moment when or ten minutes ago if you like when this order was called , The Committee of Ways and Means, we had no guarantee we would ever get an opportunity to get on to the Budget debate. In the absence of such a guarantee, Mr. Speaker - MR. LUNDRIGAN: We had a guarantee some days ago.

May 13, 1976 Tape 2659 PK - 3 MR. SDII-10NS: The m.eniber, Mr . Speaker, ought to speak from his rlac~, number one. Number two , he says we had s guarantee some days ago . That may he so , I did not hear of it. I was told variously on ~iven days that one order or another would be called. I was told at one point that we were goi.ng to hear from the Department of Municipal Affairs during estimates , we never did get to that, and that &ot swi tched around. And at one point tarly in the estimates we were to hea r about Industrial Development which I would like to hav e discussed, we did not get to that either .

May 13, 1976 Tape No. 2660 "'R. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I believe though the overall point is made that I hooe and I now call on the Government House Leader, he obvious!'• has an interest in this matter, I call on him to see to it that in future the Budget Debate NM- 1 is called before the estimates. It would serve the purposes of this House a whole lot better if we could address ourselves generally to the itr.ms in the budget in a general budget debate and follow that up then with a perusal of the estimates of the various departments. MR. SMALLWOOD: Hear! Hear! MR. SIMMONS: Now the member for Kilbride (Mr.

Wells), he can get as semantic as he wants to, he can get caught up on the niceities of the argument about when he told what to whom.

The fact of the matter is that I have been in this House all Fall and all Winter and Spring and this is my first opportunity to discuss a budget that was brought down two months ago, My first opportunity to get involved in a general debate, the kind of debate I should have been afforded by having the Throne Speech or the Address in Reply called some months ago, indeed as much as four or five months ago and I do nall on the Premier and the Government House Leader to see to it that this abuse of their majority in the House does not become a practice. It almost has become a practice.

In the three years I have been here this is the way things have gone. The Budget debate has either not been called at all or has been called just in the interest of tokenism so they could say they had called the Budget debate and then they have proceeded rather quickly with the calling of the estimates of the various d~partmenta, calling the Committee of Supply. And I ask them that they not in future allow this to become an imbedded practice whereby we are forced to discuss in rather general terms the Budget under the guise of Committee of Supply as we have been doing for the past several weeks. MR.

CROSBIE: It was your choice. 7561

1!ay 13, 1976 Tape No. 2660 NM- 2 MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, the member for St. John's West (Mr. Crosbie) talking about choice. Mr. Speaker, he disappoints me today. I cannot see too far, Mr. Speaker, and I was delighted to have been given a colour photo of the minister because it is much nearer than he is. I can take it home with me, put it under my pillow, a beautiful colour•d picture of the Minister of Mines and Energy. I wondered what was so special about him that warranted that kind of expense, Mr.

Speaker, by Hydro at a time when they are really having a difficult period finding the money for the Lower Churchill. I wonder why a black and white picture could not have done. It would certainly have been ~re characteristic, more representative of the moods that the minister portrays in this House. Indeed they could have used mostly black. But no they went to beautiful colour, Mr. Speaker, beautiful colour. It is not hardly large enough I think the Premier will agree, but it nevertheless was fairly costly. Do you know, Mr.

Speaker, I had someone since I saw this a few minutes ago, cill a printer about a number of matters and one of the things I asked him to ask was what would be the cost of getting what is known in the printing trade as the colour separation plates for this particular picture, not to print the picture but just to get the plates, the plates that would be required so they could run a coloured picture in the Province. They do not have this lithographing process here and so they have to run four separate colours to get a coloured picture as most of us will know.

And for that they need four plates which overlap exactly at the right points so they get this beautiful. shot of the minister as l~e have here. Do you know, Mr. Speaker, just to get the plates for that picture it cost somebody, I daresay me and the rest of us as taxpayers, or the sharholders of Hydro, and we are majority shareholder~ so therefore it cos·t us about $150 just to get the plates for that. MR. S}fALLWOOD: No. 7562

May 13, 1976 MR. SIMMONS : says no. MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. SIMMONS: Tape Ntl. 2660 NM- 3 The member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) I am a publisher and I have had hundreds of them. Yes well I have just, not directly but I say to the member for Twillingate, I have just had someone talk to a printer, I knew the cost was over $100.

He might have had hundreds done and perhaps that is the secret to have quantity but applying the ball'ic square inch formula there, the printer tells me throu~h a third party that about $150, this comes from one of the two or three major printers in town in the last fifteen minutes, a full page colour there would cost you something in excess of $300 or $350. Now the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), MR. CROSBIE: MR. SIMMONS: MR. CROSBIE: MR. SIMMONS: MR. SMALLWOOD: How much would it cost for the office scene? It is by square inches to the minister, three by four - What would that cost?

Oh that would cost about $500 for both pages. If the bon. member would yield for a moment - ~~~~~~--Sure. MR. SIMMONS: MR. SMALLWOOD: - I could tell nim that in the last publication that I edited, I have 125 full pages in colour, the four colours. MR. SIMMONS: Where was it printed. MR. SMALLWOOD: It was printed in England. MR. SIMMONS: Ah hal MR.

SMALLWOOD: And the photographs were made in Newfoundland, the colour separations were made in England and the plates were made in England and the printing was done in England and I aan assure him that this very handsome colour photograph of the very handsome mini8ter - MR . SIMMONS: Hear! Hear! MR. SMALLWOOD: - did not cost that much money, or if it did thev went to the wrong place to get it done, MR. SIMMONS: I thank the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) because he and I are in agreement once again on the handsomeness of the minister and the need for the photograph, the fact it is 7 5l13

May 13, 1976 Tape No. 2660 NM - 4 MR. SIMMONS : too small, but· we disagree on the price. He has obviously p;ot a better source than the printers in Newfoundland have and I should tell the printers that he has discovered a fairly economic source in England because the source that the people in Newfoundland - MR. SMALLWOOD: England, Spain, Ital;, Amsterdam, there are all kinds of places where most of the colour printing of North America is, in fact,done. MR . SIMMONS: will realize . Well it is not central to my theme as the member MR. SMALLWOOD: No, MR.

SIMMONS: But just for his information on one point in case he is not aware, the colour separations for most of the Newfoundland printin~ trade are done in Halifax, Atlantic Photo Engravers or something such as that, and the price that I have just received on this picture is fairly adequate. I have not had as much experience as a publisher as he but I did have two or three little publishing ventures in my day and we did get into colour separations and I remember we were paying out fairly hefty prices.

But as I say to him, the cost is not central to my theme, I just wanted the House to know that it is costing us money to have this beautiful picture of the minister so close at hand, I am grateful for it but it does make me wonder. particularly when I look through the report and see some extravagance, but that is obviously done to imnress other peonle perhaps in the money market so perhaps it can be .iustified. It is not central to what I wanted to say. I iust did, having had the distraction from the minister a few moments ar;o, want t" point out ~•hat he is costing us just to look at him. Hr.

Speaker, before leaving the matter I raised earlier about the ~ P.~uence of events in terms of the debates in this House. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. I do not think,Your Honour,there is a quorum in the House. 75G4

May 13, 1976 Tape No . 2660 NM- 5 MP.. SPF.AitRR: Order, please! Quorum call. Order, please! I will ask the Clerk of the House to count the House. I have to i!lfol'ID. hon. members that a quorum is present. The hon. membl!!r for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. S~NS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I made a plea a moment agn to the govermnent to see to it that in the future the Throne Speech and the Budget debate are called, by the Throne Speech I mean the Address in Reply, and the ~udget debate is called before the estimates are called.

That gives us an opportunity to make these general comments that we have been making in eommittee. Raving said that, Mr. Speaker. just let me put a suggestion which I believe the government might well take under advis~ent to speed up the process . in the Committee. I have been as fed up as· I believe most members have been during Coumittee stage on the supply bills, the estimates. I have been very .. 7565

Hay 13, 197Ei Tape 2EiH PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: fed u~ with the way things have gone in terms of the long winded speeches. I have been one of the persons making them for that matter. Jlut it seems to destroy the whole intended process of the Committee whe.re you could have some informal exchange back and forth, some questions from this side, some answers hopefully from government. Jt destroys the whole process.

Now I say part of it, the onus is on me, and I am not here condemning everybody else, I share in the blame because in the absence of having the opportunity to debate generally in the Budget debate I se!zed,and I am sure I speak for others, I seized on the estimate debate, the Committee of Supply debate to say some of the things I would munh have perferred to say in the House as such, the House rather than in Committee. So I make two suggestions, one I have made already that the sequence be in line with what must certainly.be the spirit of the rules of the House.

I believe the spirit of the rules of the House is clearly that we have the debate on the Budget before we have the debate on the estimates, that would seem to be a sensible order of events. That is my first suggestion. It is not a new one. It is just a plea to government to do what I believe is within the spirit of the rules, which is clearly the spirt of the rules right now. The second su~gestion I make, but I only make it, and I hesitate, because I only make it if the first one is accepted.

If that one is accepted that we go back to having the Budget debate before the estimates, then I would make a strong plea to government to consider changing the rules as they affect the Committee of Supply. And I would repeat, I would only agree to it if we can have a Budget debate first.

But if I were allowed as a member of this House to participate in the Budget debate as I am doing nm~, but earlier in the game before I have to talk about estimates, if I were allowed to do that, then I would as one member, I do not speak for our caucus, but as individuals we have some comments among ourselves about it, that we are a bit fed up with the way things have gone, and I would be in favour of shorter speeches, I would be in favour of rules in the Committee of Supply which limit the speech, 75G6

May 13, 1976 Tape 2661 PK- 2 Mr. Simmons: for example,to fifteen or twenty or twenty-five minutes, you know, with the understanding that I would have my opportunity beforehand to make my remarks on the Budget debate. There would not be the need then to get up and wax eloquent or otherwise for forty-five minutes on every subject that comes up or there would not be this competition to get the floor so you can hold sway for forty-five minutes.

Instead if I had a point I wanted to make to the Minister of Education and to his department about the handicapped children, the item I got involved in sometime ago, or a point I wanted to make to the Minister of Rural Development about my feelings on small communities, for example, why should I have to first of all take forty-five minutes to do it~ And secondly, why should I have to wait in line until three or four other members have each spoken forty-five about very,very different topics than are of concern to me at that particular moment? Well, Mr. Speaker, I believe the points are made.

There are two, one that we go back to the sequence which is clearly within the spirit of the rules of the House, and the House of Commons in Ottawa and in Britain. The spirit of the rule as far as I am concerned being that we have our general debate on the Budget before we have the estimates. And secondly, if that is the case I would be strongly in favour of delimiting the length of the speeches in Committee of Supply. I have deliberat•ly said Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker. I do not think my comments should be interpreted to apply to all Committee procedures.

The Committee of Ways and Means, of course, in which we are now in a sense or we are not, but we have a motion to that effect, well it would not apply there any way because we are really in the House as a whole, but I was thinking also of the procedure for dealing with bills at Committee stage. I am not sure -it would be desirable to apply my comments to the Committee consideration of bills. One may well have some points to make that could well take more than twenty minutes. 7::iG7

May 13, 1976 Tape 2661 PK - 3 Mr. Si111D!ons: If' we reflect on the activities of the House over the past two or three years since I have been here, I do not think the abuse has come in the Committee stage on bills, But I think it is clearly common we have had recent examples in the Committee stage on supply, and my comments are related to the Committee of Supply only. I certainly in passing would invite other members to comment upon that suggestion. Because I think we have got bogged down more than we should have been this time around on estimates. We only spent the same amount of time, its agreed.

But, you know, we are not youngsters punching time so we can get out at the end when the bell goes. We are people here I hope to do a job. And I find something wrong with the mentality that it is very easy to get sucked into, the mentality of sitting here counting hours and longing for it to be all over type thing. And I believe I was sent here for different reasons than that, and I believe·~y time could be much more profitably served if the rules were amended along the lines that I have suggested. 1{r. Speaker, I have always been fascinated by pictures, perhaps it is because I have basically a very simple mind.

And I believe at one point, Mr. Speaker, ,I did draw the House's attention to the signifiance of all the pictures on the cover, just by way of reviewing before we continue,let,us look back over the last few Budgets and see what we are dealing with here. MR. CROSBIE: You are going after my cover again. MR. SIMHONS: I am going after the minister's cover is right, The cover I would love to see here, Mr. Speaker, is not the one we see at all. I understand that some senior advisers to him gave him counsel on what kind of a cover he sho~ld put here. MR. CROSBIE: Wow! MR.

S~IDNS: He did not take their advice, and we are all somewhat tlw poorer for it. t1R. CROSBIE: ------ You can say that again boy. MR. SIMMONS: But, Mr. Chairman, we go back, and if you remember what I had to say a moment ago about the picture of the Minister of Mines and Energy \ 75GR

May 13, 1976 Tape ?661 PK - 4 Mr. Simmons: I grabbed this Budget just now, the 1974 Budget when he waa the Miniwt•~ of Finance and the President of Treasury Board, and I fully expected to find at least a black and white picture; But no back in 1974 he did not even rate a picture. He has come a long way in two years. I hope his standing is as good in government as it is with hydro. That is another subject and we will talk about it at the right time. Indeed the Budget itself did not even warrant a picture.

There was some ominous suggestion in ~he colour down here, and I cbuld not tell whether it was the Liberal colour or the Liberal Reform ~olour, the Tory blue wishing itself another colour or,was just referring to the financial state of the Province in that we were truly in the red then. And then you will remember I referred to this one the 197~ which I cannot make up my mind on. Is it just a pretty picture Budget or is it at sea Budget? They are telling us things, Mr. Speaker. And in this one also at sea or really at sea perhapsf But, Mr.

Speaker, this certainly took the l:ake this last <•one., They must have searched high and low, they must have sent all kinds of public relations experts and ~hotographers all over the Province in all of the helicopters they could muster to get that p~rticular photograph. MR. SMALL'WOOD: Which one ia that? MR. SIMMONS: MR. CROSBIE: f.'R.. SIMMONS: This particular one on the last Budget. Let me see that one? That is the last one, .. is it? This is the one showing the stormed tossed sea, the rocks, for all of you who are nearsighted like myself. The on the rocks Budget.

I think they were really trying to tell us something when they czhose that. SOME HON, MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: Oh, yes the member from Grand Falls CMr. Lundrigan) would like to think. But the word is out about this particular Budget, Mr. Speaker. The on the rocks Budget. And, of course, on the rocks has got all kinds of connotations. We connect it with the financial situation at t~es, the financial state of a jurisdiction, we think about a place being financially on the rocks, 7569

Moy 13, 1976 Tape 2661 Pit - 5 HR. DOODY: Scotch on the rocks. MR . ~ IMMONS: But s ome times - and the Minister of Finance remi nds me, T am told t hat fellows like he and others who attend cocktail parties posted by th e pr ess 7 for which all of us are grateful I am !lure- ~· LUNDRIGAN: Speak l ow but spe ak for a s when giv ill8 t hanks. ~· SIMI-tONS: On behalf of the member for Grand Falls who looked as though he was particularly enjoyi .ng the r eception yesterday evening - HR. NEARY: He was caleb T4t in!' r.he new schoo l tax. HP._ ~IMMONS: - and he appears to be still enjoyin g it, ~tr . Spe ake r .

Inde ed l have heard of after glow , but have I r ar ely seen it so dr amat ically del'lon!<t'Cated. MR. LUND RICAN: ~. SIMMONS: That is not fatr. Mr. Speaker , the minister t:eminds me of course that this tPrn on the rocks ofte.n makes reference to certa i n alcoh olic bever~ges with ice,I believe. And I suppose in th!ls sense there is a parallel betw een the beverage and the Budget too in that the b evera~e at first appears to be cool a'nd r efreshing and inviting ) like the Budget with its 75 70

, ' ' May 13, 1976 Tafle No. 2662 NM- 1 ~IR. SIMMONS: pretty picture but if you tend to rely on it too much, if you te~d to rely on it to sustain you, you will be under in no time at all. And I believe, Mr. Speaker that perhaps better than any other expression I could use or parallel I could use, sums up what this Budget is all about. It is a Budget which bespeaks gloom and doom. I hesitate on that as well because I do not share the philosophy spelled out in the Budget, I do not think we are on the rocks. I differ · with the gove~nt in its forecast in this particalar budget.

I also differ with the government in terms 6f its lack of candidness in levelling with the people of this Province. I was disturbed in seeing the Budget and I have b~ more disgusted since having looked at it bee..se one it does not repesent, Mr. Stteaker, a very accurate picture of where we are. But at the same tim!!, Mr.

Speaker, it !foes not represent ·1 a very adequate financial weapon to take us where we want to go and that is the main indictment that I would make of this Budget, that it does not contain t;he measures necessary to restore th'e growth, the e.ployment, those ingredients so necessary to a prosperous economy, MR.

CHAIRMAN: Order, please~ ·If the bon. member will permit me, I woQld ~ike to bring to the attention of bon. members three visitors in the visitors' gallery, three members of the Community Council of Jacques Fontaine in the person of tihairman, Samuel Harris, secretary, Wallace Pardy and member Angus Bruahett I am sure bon. members will wish to welcome them. The hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir. MR. Sim-I>NS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Speaker, various spokesmen for the government, particularly just after the Budget was brought down on the 26th. of March I believe, eight weeks ago tomorrow, various spokesmen including the Premier and the Minister of Finance and others speaking for!the government at that time and since, paraded the document as an instJ:ument of restraint, one which would introduce in fiscal terms the necessary restraints req.uired to come to grips 757.!.

May 13, '1976 Tape No, 2662 N?-1 - 2 MR. SIMMONS: 1-1ith the galloping inflation we were told about and that kind of thinp,. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am all for an instrument of restraint. 1 do not particularly believe that that was the motivation behind this document nor do I feel that it is in any narticular sense an instr~ent of restraint. I am all for restraint and I am all for the need to live realistically within our meanR. Ml!. CROSBIE: M~. SIMMONS: In theory. In theory but not in practice. Well the Minister of Mines and Energy says in theory. We will see. If he would listen for a while he may learn something.

I will try. I will talk about the theory first for him and then the practice for those who believe in it. To hear those spokesmen for government, Mr. Speaker, a couple of wee~q ago talking about restraint on TV and in the papers you would think somehow they had a monopoly on peddling nious concern. You would think somehow they had a franchise . on the whole sub1ect of talking about the need for restraint.

And what made you really sit up and wonder was that the preachers of this pious concern had latched on ,to a relatively new subject for them, a sub1ect that was foreign to t.heir lips last Fall, And we have to, Mr. Chairman, retrace the past just a little bit to put this thing in context, "fR. CROSBIF.: Do not be tiresome. MR. SI~ONS: We may have to be tiresome for the Minister of Mines and Energy. It may take several repetitions to get the point across to him which is already across to most of this Province, Mr.

Speaker, that they are wondering out loud why they were led down the garden path last September, why restraint, galloping inflation and all that kind of thing became a subject that the Premier only understood on September 17th., but not on September 15th. MR. CROSBIE: Ask Mr. Trudeau. 7572

Ma:1 13, 1976 Tape No. 2662 1M - 3 MR. SD1HONS; Mr·. Trudeau got the lllin1.ster off the hook nicely. SOME HQN. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! 'MR. SIMMONS : I will tell you what .the Pre~~ier did, Mr. Speaker. As soon as Mr. Trudeau was on the TV on Monday night the Premier barely left ht.Belf time to get vhyeically back into the Province. Indeltd in doing so, Mr. Speaker, the Premier aet a record in September 1975. He became the first Newfoundland Premier in history to visit; the Province ten tiJ!Ies in the same year, He a~tually came home to IIIB,ke a speech, Mr. Speaker.

He came home from Greece or ~erever it, was - Norway, I forget where he was at that particular time, but he actually came h~e long enough to make a tel,.evision address, Mr. Sp.ak.er. He ca111e h0111e, dashed back fr011 Ottawa- the Prime 'lof.inister wal!l on TV, Thanksgiving night, a N.ond·ay night I remember, and then on Wednesday, the Premier could not have had time to consult with his colleagues, Mr. 'Speaker, he barely had time to physically get back into the Province for one of ~is visits- dashed back, somebody wrote a scr.pt for him and bango he is on television.

Now this is the same erow4, 'lofr; S11.Per, that talks about the need for plBIIDing and thinking and scratching one's head. Little scratching o·ne's head then. They had latched onto sqmething, Mr.Speak.er, th~y had latched onto a scapegoat. MR . LDNDRIGAN: You are trying to be a 1(it and you are only halfway there, MR. S!HKlNS: Ah ha, ah ha! Which is about twice as far as the member for Grand Falls. Mil. JOW'E: He ia not a half-wit. Better a half-wit than a nitwit. MR. SMALLWOOD: that exchange. The people would be deeply impressed by MR..

SIMMONS: Well, Mr, Speaker, I would get annoyed with the interruptions if I were under the time constraint, But I remind the members on the other side of the House that as the person leading off I have unlimited time . I have certain things I want to say. I should either say them in forty-five minutes or six hours. So that is why 7573

May 13, 1976 Tape No. 2662 NM- 4 ~. SIMMONS: I have not been at all perturbed by the somewhat amateur interjections by the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan). It gives him a chance to practice his veraion of wit anrl we like to watch and see fellows grow even if the growth is so slow you can hardly see it. So he can enjoy himself. I will entertain him. I need the b•eaks once in a while. It is hard talking for a long period so if he wants to interrupt me he can go ahead.

But I appeal to him in tbe interest,and I speal on behalf of the people in the galleries and the other people in the House, I appeal to him to brush up his copy a little bit • . 1R. H. COLLINS: Speak up a little. MR. SIMMONS: Brush up his copy to at least say something that will i~gratiate him particularly with the people from his area who would like to hear something of substance from the member. "ffi. LUNDRIGAN: He is a bit of a lip. JIIR. SIMMONS : Okay here we go, here we go. llere we are. Now then, now that is what I was looking for all afternoon, Mr. S11eaker, my cheerleader, the member for Grand Falls (Mr.

Lundrigan) to give me the cue to begin. I have only been actually fiddling around with it this last few minutes. So now that he is ready to listen, the one student I suppose in the House that I still have a hope of reaching, Mr. Speaker, the one person, Mr. Speaker. Well my first suggestion to the minister and to his colleagues in Cabinet is stop hoodwinking the people of this Province. We have gon~ through this period, Mr. Chairman, and I 'take you down along the sequence once again just to refresh memories before I make a few comments based on the sequence that I want to refer to.

Last Fall we had an election, Just before the election we had the Premier in Clarenville and oh the things 757ft

Hay 13, 1976 Tape No. 2662 NH- 5 ~. SIMMONS: he was telliq WI about Come By Chance, not Olle, two, three, you Dame ;f.t. 'l'bat waa the Frid,ay or Thurililay b~fore ·the eiectiw. Nov, Mr~ sp.-abl', the plea ve gel: from· him since- em televfsion fs that he Olll.y knew about Come By Chance in October, '!hat may 'be 80o Pea.pa he viis DOt around. Perhaps nobody told hilll. Mil. !Un·: He l!iaicl a.othiq a'liou~ C~amrille. MR. SDIIQNS: Ah haj· Well• Mr. S,_.r, U. CD!atar .~ . fr0111 the area aays he ·aaic! 1l01:h1DI about Cl.aravUle.

Let ~ say that the preas report c:aae troa CJ.areaville ill 111dch the Prater ~ted OD. some statemeDta -.de by Mr. Shahec on tlle-Wedueaday pri0'1' to the election. I do not lm.ow where 7575 ,,,

May 13, 197(; Tape 2663 PK- 1 Mr. Simlnons: ------- the Premier- he might have made it in Georges Brook or over in Queen,• s Cove, I do not know where he made it, he might have been on Random Island-but the press report is datelined Clarenville. I have a copy of it. And the minister knows what I am talking about, that about three or four or five days before the electfon the Premier was in the Clarenville area and he made some comments in which he expressed delight at the good news that Come By Chance was going to have a petrochemical plant. Now he has since told us, Mr.

Speaker, that he did not know anything about the troubles that Come By Chance was in until some time about the 21st. or the 22nd. of October. But I do not misbelieve him. That may be true. But what he did not know, Mr. Speaker, we have it on the word of one of his colleagues, the ~finister of Mines and Energy that he knew since last July. He said so publicly. The Minister of Mines and Energy in the last couple of months during the height of the public debate on Come By Chance said publicly that he knew since last July that Come By Chance was in trouble. Mr. Chairman, do not that ,rowd ever get together?

Do they not ever compare notes on anything? What is wrong with the Minister of Hines and Energy he keeps secrets like' that from the Premier? ~e they not on talking terms? Or are the rumours we are hearing all true? So my first suggestion if the member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan)is still writing, is that he advise his colleagues not to continue this charade of taking the people of Newfoundland down the garden path. SOME RON. MEMRV.~~: Oh, Oh:. MR.~~RIGAN: That is not even stood English. MR. SU1MONS: - - ----- That is good. ~t is good. After the election - HR. CROSBIE: ------ What one? HR.

S U1MONS : ------ Oh this is still number one, I am explaining it for the member for Hawbour Grace (Mr. Young). MR. LUNDRIGAN: He suggested that. MR.SIMMONS: It should only take a day or so. 7576

Kay 13, 1976 Tape 266:1 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: Mr. S~eaker, after the election,of courae,we heard a very different story, We had the business of the television appearance by the Premier on the Wednesday following Thanksgiving and then we have had a Throne Speech, a real doom and gloom Throne Speech, and then a Budget back on March 26. And without belabouring the point, Mr.

Speaker, I think you will agree the sequence of events since September 16 have been so dramatically altered, so dramatically different-when I say events, I mean the aequence of pronouncements from the govermaent have been so dramatically altered since September 16-it makes you wonder if you are listening to the same crowd, ~· ROWE:_ That is the same crowd. MR. SIMMONS: The answer is,yes and no. It is the same crowd physically, They have the same bodies, or the same fellows with the same names and that kind of thing, but they are changed in a very dramatic way, Mr. Chairman.

They are different in that they are not looking for votes any more. Before September 16 the announcements about water supplies, and roads, was just coming out of ybur ears. MR. LUNDRIGAN: Fish plants in Bu~geo. MR. SIMMONS; Yes,fish plants in Bu~geo. ~. LUNDRIGAN: A landing strip in Burgeo. MR. SIMMONS: MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. SIMMONS: announcement. MR. LUNDRIGAN: MR. SIMMONS: Going to have a landing strip in Burgeo. I do not know. I was wondering if the minister was making an A landina strip vould be a good service for Burgeo. Oh, yes, but now the minister should hold it right there. He .should talk in categories.

Be)should not cite the realities or the almost realities with the pipe dreams. The almost reality is the fish plant, it is begun. I was in there yesterday in Burgeo and I was delighted to see that the wharf is actually underway. MR. LUNDRIGAN: I did not hear you say that on any open line progr-. ~~MHO~ The minister has not heard me on any open line programmes since he has become a member of gove~nt. That is why he has not 7577

May ]1, 1976 Tape 266S PK - 3 Mr. SiiiDTlons: heard me. He did not only hear me not say anything about Burgeo, he heard me say nothing about anything on open line, so I am not surprised. MR. NEARY: There is no open line out in Grand Falls now. MR. SIMMONS: There is no open line on in Grand Falls, there is a neither one on in Grand Bank, so it is not the same opportunity. MR. F. WHITE: No good hosts any more. MR. SIMMONS: I will retract that, I was on open line once in Grand Falli. MR. DOODY: That is what put it out of business. MR. SIMMONS: That is right. That was essentially the end of the show. That is right.

I was on open line once in Grand Falls since the election, so I was not completely truthful a moment ago. But, Mr. Speaker, the minister talks about the fish plant, it is begun and I am delighted. MR. DOODY: Hear, hear! llR. SIMMONS: ----- The road contract is in the papers these days and it is going to close in another few days, and so that is another one of the almost realities I talk about. But then he throws in the airstrip and I sat back or leaned back because I was waiting for the announcement. I thought perhaps the minister had something to tell me about an airstrip for Burgeo which they badly need.

Has he got something? I would Jield if he had an announcement to make on the subject. MR. LUNDRIGAN: If you get ome in~ovr district I will vant one iu mine. MR. SIMMONS: The minister, Mr. Speaker, tries so hard. ~here must be somehow, there ought to be some kind of a merit system, some kind of a prize system in this House for people who try, they set nowhere but they try. He tries so hard night and day, he does not seem to get anywhere.

Well I hope the minister will have something soon on that airstrip or- I am not sure,he is not the Minister of Transportation, and he better check it with his colleague who is the Minister of Transportation because he does get very touchy when fellows talk about 7578

May 13, 1976 Tape 2661 PK- 4 Mr. Si11111ons: things affecting his department. The minister knows that better than anybody else. Mr. Speaker, I was saying a few minutes ago before we got off on these tangents, I was talking about the subject of restraint and h~· this Budget has been paraded as a restraint instruaent, as a way of curbing inflation and that kind of thing.

Well we over here, and I speak for mysslf,we are pretty concerned about the need to do the right : things financially, to do the right things in terms of government leadership to see that the economy gets back on track, to see that we have prosperity, to see that we have more e.ployment opportunities than we have at the present. And we would welcome any f:qstrui!W'nt, any Budget document which honestly took a crack at doing something about these subjects, about inflation, about unemployment, and so on. Mr.

Speaker, one cannot help but ask again and again the question how come these people so suddenly saw the light on this subject of inflationj Thatis what puzzles me, and nobody has answered the question yet. And I deliberatley raise it now at the beginning of this debate because I hope the Minister of Finance or the Premier or somebody will respond to that. 'What was the magic in the dates? Was there something about September 16? Was there some reason that suddenly they discovered the truth of the aatter? That suddenly they hit upon the bitter truth that we were in inflationary ttme?

Did they not know it when they were making all these commitments that they obviously bad no hope of keeping to the people of Newfoundland? That I suppose, Mr. Speaker. is what concerns me more than anything else about this whole Budget,that it demonstrates to me as a taxpayer~that we have in office a government who is not that concerned about levelling with the people of the Province. I mention the magic in the date of September 16. What do we expect that somehow the economic order, the marketplace, the law of supply and demand responds miraculously to election announcements?

That somehow as soon as the Premier announces there is going to be an 7579

May 13, 1976 Tape 2661 PK - 5 Mr. Simmons: election on September 16 the econoaic order; the laws of supply and demand somehow adopt a springboard stand and launch automatically into a period of prosperity~ Is that what happens? And then the day the election is over are we being told that - the day the election . is over these same laws of supply and demand, the same economic order, the same marke~lace just as mysteriously adopts a new approach to things and goes into a period of economic restra~? Who, Mr. Speaker, who, who, who are they trying to fool? ~curse, we need restraint. Of course we need it.

But that restraint was needed as much on September 15, and this is not just hindsight, Mr. Speaker,- it is hindsight for me obviously because I was not in possession of the facts on the subject for me 11: ~~ hindai~ht, yea - but for the Premier of the Province it is not hindsight. I ' He knew. He knew on September 15 as much as he did on September 17 or as much as he did in the first or second week of October when he made his announcement to the people of the Province. Now, Mr.

Speaker, my question to him and to the government · is why did the Premier not exercise honesty at that particular time instead of making a mad grab for a few votes? I referred to Come By Chance. I think the government's stewardship to the people of the Province has been shameful on Come By Chance. I do not blame them for the mess. I am not saying that. Our spokesman for our party 7580

May 13, 1976 Tape No, 2664 MR. SIMMONS: has aid otherwise. I am not saying that. But I ~ saying, Mr. Speaker, that 1overnment spokesmen did manipulate the facts when it comes to Come By Chance, and that the facts which were available to government were not made known to the people at the earliest opportunity. That concerns me because it raises the larger question, if they are unscrupulous enough •o manipulate the facts NM-- 1 on this particular subject, where does it stop? And if you do ~ot have,Mr.

Speaker, if you do not have basic honesty in government, if you do not have basic integrity then the whole thing falls apart because you do not know what to believe. Tha·t, Mr. Speaker, is the indictment of the Throne Speecll, that is the indictment of the Budget, You do not know what to believe anymore. I will help the government, Mr.

Speaker, I will help the government in a restraint programme but I will not, 1 will not help the government in a deception pragr811111le, I will not be a party, I will not be an accompliea to this barefaced, no-holes-barred, brazen, scandalous, insulting, demeaning csmPaign to hoodwink the people of this Province in the name of restraint. The member for Pleasantville (Mr. Dinn) is about to make his maiden speecll. He was saying - MR. DINN: 1 thought you were going to resign. MR. SIMMONS: Oh the member wants to know if 1 am going to resign. Not today, Mr. Speaker. MR.

NEARY: He probably had a button on his lip over there for a while , he was so silent. MR. SIMMONS : The-member for Placentia (Mr. Wm. Patterson) has ~iven him some council and he is all primed and ready now so we should hear from him any day at all. He is sitting in a ra~her envious position in the House with one of the moat experienced campaigners on his left and not far to his right one of the most notorious effigy burners in the whole of Labrador. The only man, Mr. lpeaker, in recent 7581

May 13, 1976 Tape No. 2664 NM- 2 Mil • S !MMONS : history who has had a televised effity burnin~ is the member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie). l'IR. WHITE: He ~ets away with it. MR. SIMMONS: They are singing a new song for him now. I used to love - I am not much of a country and western person but I used to love this one for some reason, perhaps because of its quaintness, this one about, "They do not burn their draft cards down in Muskogee. MR. DOODY: Is that what your band is playing now? MR. SIMMONS: The Minister of Finance and I, we were working together last ni~ht on a new musical piece.

We are going to be co-comJlosers , I guess you will call it• He was the consulting musician on the ~ieee and we are adapting this Muskogee song. this one about no b~ their draft cards down in Muakogee and the member for Naskaupi (Mr.

Goudie), which fortunately is very much like the term 1 Skogee' the member for Naskaupi is going to have as a campaign song something to the effect next time, they do not burn their members down in'Skaupi'and that does not mean they do not burn their ministers down in 'Skaupi.' As a matter of fact some of the ministers were, at least orie of the ministers,was red hot down there a couple of weeks ar,o and I cannot make up my mind whether the member was 'shaking hands, striking matches, waving good-bye.

And a lot of people are asking questions I believe, including the Minister of ~nes and Energy, the scorched minister would like to have the answer before it is too late. MR. MURPHY: A hot time in the old town tonight. MR . SPEAKER (DR. COJ.T.TN'.<;): ~der, please! Would the hon. ~ember permit? On behalf of hon. members .! would like to call to their attention the presence in the gallery of students from grade eleven in Random Island Integrated School, twenty of them,with their teacher Mr. Pardy, Hon. members will give them welcome,I am sure. The hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir. MR.

MURPHY: Fifty-five minutes by the mm from Het11dtqe. 7582

May 13, 1976 Tape NO, 2664 NM- 3 ~- SIMMONS: The member for St, John's Centre and I, I thought had become friends but lately he has been after me. CAPT. WINSOR: MR. S IMH:lNS : that. The honeymoon is over. The honeymoon is over. There is no question about Mr. Speaker, sure we on this side will help in any programme of restraint but ~ot in a programme of deception, I have a feeling, l have a clear feeling, I have a gut feeling, Mr.

Speaker, that we ~oo as members are being led down the garden path, Well not really, we are not being led because we ar~ nnt going 1but there is an attempt to take us down the garden path on this one and in those pious pronouncement• we are told about the need for restraint. Now, Mr. Speaker, they say it is an ill wind that blow no one any goo~ and in a wsy while I have msde some criticisms of the lapse of time since the Budget came down, until now, the two months, I suppose in one way on reflection there has been an advantage.

We have had a couple of months to see how the government plans to practice What it is preaching and I ask you, I ask you, Mr. Speaker, l ask the members of this Rouse to reflect and see if you can call to mind any particular example in the public eye which would lead you to believe for one fraction of a second that this Budget and this government are on~a programme of controlling inflation, are on a programme of promoting employment. Now, Mr. Speaker, the matter of inflation is a hard one to measure.

At what point have you r.ontrolled inflationt That is a hard one to measure so we will not get involved in that one. That would require some people with a lot more financial expertise than l have. ~et us talk about employment. Let ua talk about employment opportunities. Let us look around us. And let us not take my figures, I am a partisan individual associated with one of the two major political parties in the Province, Let us not t~ke mine. Let us, go' to some less partial source, let us go to something like Statistics Canada and ask them what they are 758:J

May 13, 1976 Tape No. 2664 NM- 4 ~. SIMMONS: findinp,. Ask them about the dramatic upturn in employment in this Province since this Budget came down or sine~ the Throne Speech of last Fall. Ask them what has happened; Ask them if it is not true that we now have full employment in this Province. Ask Statistics Canada what this government has done since it went on this crusade last Fall to put her back on the tracks. Ask Statistics Canada if we have full employment or ask them if it is true that we have even the lowest unemployment rate in Canada, four, five or six per cent, or three per cent as in Alberta.

Or ask them if we have an unemployment rate equal only to the national average of seven or eight per cent or whatever. Ask them if that is true.

Or ask Statistics Canada if it is ~ossible, if it is at all possible that in May 1976. six or seven months after this great onslaught by the Premier of this Province, this great crusade announced on provincewide televiaiOD• reaffirmed in the Speech from the Throne in Novemember, reaffirmed again in the Budget Speech in March, ask the Statistics Canada if as a result of all these measures, these initiatives by government, if it is possible that we still have not only the highest unemployment rate in Canada but also the highest in our history.

And Statistics Canada, perhaps with no particular glee, will tell you what l just inferred, that we do have the highest unemployment rate in our history~ we do have the highest unemployment rate in Canada. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am one of those person who cannot get too caught up with comparisons with either the past or with other .1urisdictions and frankly, for what it is wurth, I do not care whether our unemployment rate is the higheBt or lowest it has ever been. I am not concerned with how we stand in relation to 1932 or how we stand in relation to 1949 or 1956. I am concerned with how we stand now.

I am not concerned whether our employment rate is higher or lower than Alberta or Ouebec or Nova Scotia. I am concerned with whether

May 1.3, 1976 Tape No. 2664 NM- 5 MR. SDIM!iJMS: tbe unemployment rate represents the best we an dO in' this Prcw:htee.; If we hii,;e to have the Ughest un~lt;~y.nent rete in euada so~ it. But I kr. Sjtea&r I ~t UB not accept :i:t i.s a!''fact: of Ufe. To beb the Premier of t:bis Proviiiee yOll .weui. tldnk ~oliehow it was someth:izig t~ brag about. iDd Mt. ~br' a viiry dtffeteDt 'il:rc!mier than the man who was• talld.q tt~ ·ua :bl. 1972 OT i9n whl!ll he p~s' ed u.s full e~~~ploym,e!),t. A f~:i&ltdy prc,J,IIi~e in tile {:(rat p'4ce to suggest for one aeconcJ tit,lt y~u ~1d bave ful.l i!ii:P:t~ ~.any Provi;tlce :In ~nada 7585 ·"' ,.

May 13, 1976 Tape 2665 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: for a number of reasons, that I will not go into, but even Alberta, oil rich Alberta with billions of dollars it does not even know what to do with I am told, even they hav~ an unemployment rate of 3 per cent. Even that Province has three people out of every one hundred who do not have jobs. So l~t us not talk about full employment. Now the Premier before he became the Premier in the Fall of 1971 did promise that,and I wondered even then who his advisers were to ~~ite into his speech that kind of a foolhardy statement.

But I 1 like a number of other people around this Province,looked over it. And we knew what he meant. We knew that what he was saying was that he was going to try and improve the employment situation. Well he has four or five years trying I suppose, Mr. Speaker, he certainly had four or five years in office. What do we have in 1976? We have Statistics Canada in the last few days telling us once again, she is worse than even employment wise. So, Mr. Speaker, in retrospect it is a blessing in disguise that we are here two months after the fact lookinp. back at the Budget and its effect.

Because we have had that two month period,if you like, we have had the five or six month period since the government announced, but we have had really a full six months because the Premier announced that about the second week in October, so we have had October, November, December, January, February, March, April, we are going into our eighth month really, seven months, well seven months yesterday I believe since he made his announcement about the programme to curb inflation to improve the employment situation. Also, Mr. Speaker, this is the 13th. of May.

We are headed into another Surnmer,at least in terms of the calendar, and the weather seems to auger well. We are at that time of the year when traditionally the construction industry, the seasonal constructional industry, the road buildinp. programmes, the house construction, the building of commerical properties, the various other industries that depend somewhat 758fi

~ay 13, 1976 Tape 2665 PK - 2 Mr. Simmons: on half deeent weather, the temperatures, we are into that period of the year now when we eould expect a seasonal upturn in the employment figures. We could expeet men an4 women to be going back to the oceupations whieh, as I say, depend somewhat on weather conditions. So instead of seeing the frightful figures that we are seeing from Statistics Canada we should be witnessing lower figures, at least. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I aq reminded that when someone from government gets up to rebutt this partieular comment,as someone will I am ~re,they will point out that the figures across Canada are high too, and I believe stayed high for this month, or even went up a bit. And that is trne. Mr, Speaker, you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot have it both ways. This is the government.here in this Province that points long and often to the seasonal nature of our employment situation.

So all last Winter they were saying;""Well now look we are not like the rest of Canada, because ~topor~ionately: , speaking, relatively speaking, speaking in pereentages we in Newfound­ land have a higher seasonal employment faetor than anywhere else in Canada. We have proportionatelyspeaking more people employed during the Summer months and unemployed during the Winter than any other part of Canada. That is the arsument I have heard the government use many, many times. All right, I will buy that one.

I do not know the absolute truth of it but I would recognize, I would aecept that relatively speaking we have a fairly significant seasonal employment factor to contend with much more so than they would in the city of Toronto, for example, or the more urban parts. Accepting that, as I say, they cannot have their cake and eat it too. They cannot use that argument in January and now in May when our people should be going baek to work,seasonally, they cannot be pointing to the rest of Canada. The set of faetors,if you follow me,have to be different.

And we should now if we were in an unemployment slump, because of the season last January,.we should now be forging upward,as it were, surging upward in terms of employment figures. And we would be, Mr. Speaker, if this document right here was what it is being paraded as being, if it was a document to control 7587

May 13, 1976 Tape 2665 PK - 3 Mr. Simmons: inflation, to exercise restraints and to provide employment. If it were all of these things, and one thing I have not mentioned, if it was also a document which would address itself to the resource based industries of this Province I would not be a~le to stand here and truthfully today talk about the continuing high rate of unemployment. Or if I could I would be talking in more positive terms because I would be pointing out that the unemployment rate, thanks to the budgetary measures proposed here, thanks to that, the unemployment rate has taken a turn for the better.

Mr. Speaker, we are all for restraint, but we cannot get excited about deception. We cannot get excited about a document such as the one we have had the opportunity to 'peruse for the past couple of months. The Budget, Mr. Speaker, while it "does not do much along the lines that it says it would to control inflation and so on, does raise a lot of questions,this Budget. I have had the opportunity in the last couple of months to look through it several times, and I find myself asking where is it in this Budget? Where is it? Where is the government's plan to come to grips with employment?

And I say to myself well there are several areas where the government could lau~ch an onslaught on the unemployment situation. Perhaps it is in the area of mining. There is an industry, there is an area of concern that provides a lot of labour-intensive activity. So I find myself goin~ to the figures of the Department of Mines and Energy to see what the picture is there. Let us see what it is, Mr. Speaker, if we can find it here.

Mines and Energy: I believe the figures are accurate, I would certainly table them, and the Minister of Forestry could check them for me, he is a gentleman with a lot more of a success record in the field of math than I have I tell you. He has got a lot of records these days, Mr. Speaker, as a matter of fact. He is the only gentleman in the House, the only one, Mr. Speaker, the only man who is on everybody's Cabinet list. P.e is the only gentleman in the House who is on everybody's Cabinet list. 7588

May 13, 1976 Tape 2665 PK - 4 MR. SIMMONS: Jle is on the Cabinet list of the Premier, the Minister of Mines and Energy, the member for Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood), the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), the member for the Bay of Islands (Mr. Woodrow), he will be on mine if ever I decide to draw up one, on ~he Leader of the Opposition's Cabinet list, on everybody's Cabinet list, Mr. Speaker, everybodys. MR. ROUSSEAU: Do not worry about it I am not paid that well. MR. SIMMONS: I have not yet, Mr. Speaker, I must say, I guess it is my style.It is either different or just a little stingier or something. MR.

SMALLWOOD: I may tell the bon. gentleman that he will not be on mine much laager if he does not set this thing ft .. d for .e. MR. SI~ONS: MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. CALLAN : MR. SMALLWOOD: What is that at all? It is a thing to keep this from aliding down. Do we all get them? Well I do not know how many have asked the minister, I know of one who asked. MR. PECIO'ORD: All ex-Preaiers. All former Premiers. MR. SMALLWOOD: Yes, all former Premiers. MR. SIMMONS: Well, Mr. Speaker, we could pursue that line but the .Smber from Labrador West, from Menihek (Mr. Rousseau) being such a good friend of mine I will resist.

I was just going to say, and I ~ot somewhat distracted by the gentleman who admits that he is on his Cabinet list,and we have it now in the public record for the first time that the member for Twillingate has admitted openly that the member is on his Cabinet list. I was going to say to him perhaps it is my stingy style or something. I have overlooked taking the minister to dinner, and I must smarten up. In case I have a Cabinet list one of those days I better start taking fellows like himself and th e member for Grand Falls (Mr. Lundrigan) and the member for Placentia (Mr.

Patterson), I should be taking these fellows to dinner. God knows I might need them one of those days. And if I ever invite the Minister of Education to dinner I am sending htm a reminder. Well, Mr. Speaker, it is all very nice 7589

May 13, 1976 Tape No. 2666 NM- 1 MR • SIMMONS : to have those little private jokes,which only a few of us are aware of the significance of,hut let me get back to the subject at hand. I was kind of interrupted by the Minister of Forestry so I wanted once again, in the public ·; record,to tell him of my continuing admiration for his ability and to say also that these figures tell me that in 1975-76 the government budgeted - oh ho~ Boy oh boy ol boy~ The government budgeted in Mines and Energy - $ 4.3 million and in this coming year is budgeting $5.1 million, so it is budgeting an extra $800,000.

I do not know how many jobs that would re~resent. Perhaps the Minister of Mines and Energy would tell us. But there is a slight increase. Inflation is around twelve or thirteen percent so allowing for inflation you would need $500,000 on the figure of this year just to allow for inflation alone .

So allowing for inflation the government is putting out perhaps $250,000, $30n,ooo 1 new dollars for Mines and Energy in this particular year• In Forestry and Agriculture another department which should be one of the job departments 1 if you like 1 it is one of the resource departments J the governmemt budgeted $2,5 million in last Fall's budget and $2.8 million now, an additional $300,000. Again I would suggest it takes care of the inflation factor at most, the $300,000. I am talking by the way for the minister's benefit.

I am talking about net capital expenditures in these figures, the net capital expenditures here . In Tourism 1 again a department that should be capable of providing johs, the government budgeted last Fall $4,973,000, this year $4,989,000, $16,000 more this year than last year. Hardly many jobs there I would say. Hardly many jobs there - $16.000. Now, Mr. Speaker, what I am doing here is just ~aking the departments, the so called resource oriented departments Mines and Energy, Forestry and Agriculture, Tourism, I will come 75 \)0

May 13, 197fi Tape No. 2666 NM- 2 MR. SIMMONS: in a moment to Fisheries, to Industrial Devel~pment. I am taking the resource oriented departments just to see where this great nrogramme to provide employment is and I cannot find it. I cannot find it in Mines and Energy. I cannot find it in Forestry and Agriculture. I cannot find it in Tourism. How about Fisheries? Well, Mr. Speaker, if you look at the figures you will not get much encouragement, Last year the government spent or budgeted $6,170,000, just over $6 million on the fishery. This is capital expenditure.

This year what do you think they are badgeting1 $6 million last year, it should be certainly $7 million, $8 million, $9 million, $10 million this year anyway, it was $6 million last year. This year it is $5 million. Here is this government, the government which talks about how we have got to use fisheries, let me get the story please, you will never believe it unless I show it to you. This is a press clipping in The ·Evening ·Telesram, Saturday, February 14th.

The Premier had just come back from one of his jaunts over to Europe where he visited several count~ies and the headline, "Moores Optimistic About Trip To New York - Fishery Key To Rural Revitalization." Fishery the key, so he cannot claim he does not know it. He cannot claim he does not know it. He cannot say that there is no more money in the Fisheries Budget because he did not know the difference, He obviously ~. He has been saying it for a long time. But, Mr. Speaker, he has not put his money where his mouth is on this one. Capital I mentioned to you, $6 million last year down to $5 million this year.

Let us look at the overall expenditure in the fishery, Mr. Speaker, the overall expenditure. Here we are. The gross expenditure in fisheries last year, Mr. Speaker, would you believe the gross expenditure was $22,689,000 last year, $22,600,000. This year, now this is the year when we are going to have more jobs, when fisheries is going to be the key to rural revitalization, this year we have $16 million. $6 million less on fisheries expenditure this year than last year. 7591_

May 13, 1976 Tape No. 2666 NM- 3 ~IR. SIMMONS: I ask you, is that any way, Mr. Speaker, is that any way to revitalize the fishery1 Is that any way to give new life and new spark to rural Newfoundland by cutting off the bit of money you have been giving them, by cutting her b~ck by $6 million? Mr. Speaker, I was saying I went through the Budget, department by department and said, okay, where are the jobs being created? Perhaps the Statistics Canada figures are wrong? Perhaps they are being done by a bunch of fellows up-a-long who do not understand the Newfoundland situation.

Perhaps they have got poor mathematicians up there. Perhaps thetr computers are giving them a run around. So I will check the Budget. Well I checked, Mr. Speaker, and I cannot find the jobs or the money for the jobs in Mines and Energy. I cannot find the jobs or the money for the jobs in Forestry and Agriculture. I cannot find the jobs in Tourism. I cannot find the jobs in Fi.sheries. So, Mr. Speaker, it only leaves me with a couple of other departments to compare. Industrial Dev•!opment is a department that should gener~te some job opportunities.

And in Industrial Development, as my chart shows here and I just wanted to check it, there is an increase in expenditure in Industrial Development from $3 million to $7 million, a doubling of the expenditure in Industrial Development, which means, Mr. Speaker, we should have a look to see what they are spending the money on. It is not enough to say,of course,that Industrial Development is spending the money but how it is spending it. And I am delighted to point out, Mr.

Speaker, as I suspected that the big expenditure there the big reason why the moaey is gone up by $3 ~llion or S4 million is the one we talked about just now, Burgee Fish Industries. Burgee is getting a fish plant and the government is putting in a couple of million and-a-half dollars towards that venture in this ·7592

May 13, 1976 Tape No. 2666 NM- 4 MR. SIMMONS: particular Budg~t . There is more to come of course in subsequent fiscal years. So, Mr . Speaker, if you take away that particular project and without over simplifying, if you take away that particular project, a project which really was in last year's Budget and then got carr~ed forward and so on, not last year's the year before I believe, if you take out the Burgeo plant you have essentially a stand pat situation even in lndillltrial Developaent. Mr. Speaker, the figures, and these are figures which I have taken from the Budget, the figures, Mr.

Speaker, do not show many encGuraging st.gns at all when it eoaes to job creation. I believe just chec~ns here, yes I believe we have covered essent~ally what is in that. I was saying a few moments ago, Mr. Speaker, the Budget, while it does not so~ve a lot of problems raises a lot of questions and one of the questions is what does the Budget do for the employment situation? I cannot find it. I invite ministers in speaking to this to show me where it is if I have overlooked it. But I contend, Mr. Speaker, that jobs just are not there and the record of the past few months is demonstrating that. Why?

Why is there nothing in the entire Budget that would create additional jobs? And, Mr. Speaker, what about the go·vernment's much talked about resource development programme? Remember all the talk in the Fall of 1971-72 and even lately since the famous trip to Europe. They have been 7593

May 13, 1976 Tape No. 2667 NM- 1 MR. SIMMONS: back now since, let me see, they have been back three months now from Europe and the Minister of Industrial Development, the Minister of Fisheries, the Premier, they have all told us that one of those days they are going to have a statement about how things went in Europe. That was three months now. When do we get the stateaent? The Minister of Forestry was in Europe on this trip too. Perhaps he would indicate to the House now when we are going to hear what the ~overnment's programme is. MR. ROUSSEAU: You will hear within the next few months. There is no huriy. HR.

S_IMMONS: A few months, the next few months, Mr. Speaker, there are people out there without jobs, 4o,ooo·, 42,000 people out there. HR. ROUSSEAU: Take those copies. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, that is unworthy of that particular Cabinet designate, unworthy of him. MR. ROUSSEAU: It takes tillle to study the thing before you 11Ulke comments. MR. SIMMONS: No, Mr. Speaker, sure it takes time. Of course it takes time. It has taken a lot of time in this case, Mt. Speaker. I would hope at least, Mr. Speaker, that if the Premier could rush back and in forty-eight hours get a speech on television, not only a speech, Mr.

Speaker, but a whole programme, a whole approach to a problem within forty-eight hours after Mr. Trudeau put it to him in Ottawa. He was back and he had not only the programme decided on, the Cabinet consulted but he was on television announcing it to the whole ~rovince as a fait accompli, as a thing done ready to move and now they have been back from Europe for three months and now the minister tells us it is going to be a few more months. _!-4R. ROUSSEAU: I said over the next few months. MR. SIMMONS: That is when we hear about the plan. But when is the plan ga into action? MR.

LUMDIUGA!I: We do not know exactly. It is a big plan. MR. SIMPIINS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I hope it is a fairly big plan. I do not mean it has got to be a grand,dramatic,dressed up plan

'May 13, 1976 Tape No. 2667 NM- 2 MR. SIMMONS: but I hope it is an effective plan. I hope it is an effective plan. I never can find out how much money we spent on the trip. It depends on whether you accept the Premier's version that the jet trip to Montreal was free or whether you take ' the word of the FPA official who said that it was a normal charter, a normal $6,000 charter. So the trip cost us, either way it cost us a fair amount of money.

By the way I had, I suppose it is probably the time to do it, I had an opportunity to talk to some people who knew who went on that flight and I asked some ouestions in this House about that flight from Gander to Montreal when the Premier went to Europe. One,I was not satisfied with the answer,but more important I was rather disturbed that some of the answers may well have contradicted the facts, the known facts. Because, Mr.

Speaker, if we just look at, without getting into personalitie!!., I shall not name names here, but I will say it for the record so that the Premier will know exactly what I am talking aboutl there were people on that flight with his permission other than the ones he admitted to in this House,and let me say it more directly, there were people on that fiight with his blessing who he denied in this House were there at his invitation. Now, Mr. Spea~er, it raises the whole question,of course,of whether the Premier or any member of the House is entitled to give that kind of information to the House, false information.

I assume he did it knowingly. MR. WELLS: ~r. Speaker, this is a statement which has got to be dealt with at this time because,the hon, member can correct me if I am wrong, but what I interpret his words to mean was that the Premier has misled the House deliberately or lied to the House, same thing. lllR. SIMMONS : 'MR. WF.LLS: MR. SIMMONS: MR. WELLS: ¥is led anyway. Deliberately? No,I did not say that. Well I think we ought to be very clear on this, a

May 13, 1'!76 Tape No. 2667 NM - 3 MR. WF.LLS :_ serious allegation and I think the bon. nember is out of or<"er. If the bon. member is f!:oing to make such an allegation he has to pursue it all the way, Mr. Speaker. So I would call upon the bon. member, Mr. Speaker, to clarify what he is saying so we will know precisely. MR. ROWE: A point of order. Mr. Speaker, I think t~is is simply the way the hon. House member is interpreting the remarks of my colleague during his speech.

The Standing Orders and Beauchesne specifically say that it is unparliamentary to say that a person has lied or deliberately misled or misled the House. Now my colleage did not say either of these things. It is simply an

interpretation placed upon the comments made by my colleague and I do not think the hon. House Leader has a point of order whatsoever. It was an

interpretation. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): A point of order.please, MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to the point of order. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The bon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: If my memory serves me correctly, Sir, the Premier said there were other people on that flight but not invited by the hen. the Premier. Well I believe everybody in the House knows who was on the flight. There was the Premier and hia two ministers and Mr. Craig Dobbin and his wife and Mr. Miller and Mr. Harris. They were all on the flight but not necessarily invited by the Premier. I think that is what the Premier said.

They could have been invited by Mr. Miller, the man who arranged the flight. I believe that is what the Premier said so I cannot see how he was misleading the House, He was invited to go but - MR. WELLS: To that point of order. MR. SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): The hon. House Leader. MR. WF.LLS: I think the Premier mentioned in the House who 75911

M:ay 13, 1976 Tape No. 2667 NM- 4 MR. WF.LI.S: was on the flight, other people who were on the flight. As I recall what the Premier said were not his concern. That is the - MR. SPEAKER (ryR. r.OLLINS): Order, please! To clarify the issue T would like to sincerely request of the hon. member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir CMr. Simmons) to expand on his remarks. There is no doubt in hon. members minds as to his meaning in this matter. The hon. member for Burgeo- Bay d'Espoir. HR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, what I said a few moments ago before the interruption was that I felt the Premier had given false information.

I did not say he had done it deliberately. I said hP had done it knowingly. I think the Premier knows 1-'R. COLJ,INS: What does he know? MR. SIMMONS: Well if the minister wants me to elaborate give me a moment. I think the false information was that people there were not at his invitation. I have information to the contrary. All ~ight. Now we both cannot be right. Mr. Speaker, the Premier, you see,contradicts himself. Since we are on this particular - he contradicts himself tecause at once he says the reason the plane was made availahle.

Let us assume the Premier's version of the story, the plane was made available to a goveJmment. It was done and he said Mr. So and So at EPA, Mr. Miller,! believe, said he would do the same for any government. Well now that the member has put the names into the record I ask you - MR. NEARY: They were in the record. They were :1-n the newspaper. MR. SIMMONS: All right. Yes. Okay. Now that he has entered them into the record again today I ask you is Mr. Dobbin the ,·overnment?

The Prernier's whole case is based on the fact that he wns availing of a gift hv the fact he was one of the Premiers of thE ~tlantic Provinces. Ann I would submit, Mr. Speaker, but I can 75~7

May 13, 1976 Tape No. 2667 NM ~ 5 MR. SIMMONS: do more than submit because I have some information