'.'OL. 4 PRELHHNARY l!NEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR TilE PERIOD: 3:00p.m-6:00p.m. T!!T.1RSDAY, APRJ.L 5, 1979 :w. 17

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 753 NM - 1 The House met at 3: P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER. (Mr. Ottenheimer)": 000 Order, please! The hon. Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, before you get into ministerial statements, I have just learned a couple of minutes ago that the present Bishop of Grand Falls, A.L. Penney, has been appointed Archbishop elect of St. John's as a result of the retirement of Archbishop Skinner. I think I would be remiss in my duties, Mr.

Speaker, if I did not express on behalf of not only 1 I am sure 1members on this side of the House but members on the opposite side of the House our congratulations to Bishop Penney on his elevation to this new office by his church. I think most hon. members are aware of Bishop Penney's, now Archbishop elect Penney's contribution to his church and to the Province. I think he was born in St. John's, is fifty-five years old and had spent some time at the Basilica before becoming Bishop of Grand Falls and now Archbishop elect of St.

John's, and that at the same time to wish to Archbishop Skinner on his retirement a very rewarding retirement time. So, Mr. Speaker, if it is in order, and I am sure it is, that we would like to go on record, and I am sure the Leader of the Opposition will join me, in wishing Bishop Penney, no'l-7 Archbishop elect of St. John's congratulations on his new office and we are sure he will do just as good a job there as he did in his previous positions in the ecclesiastical field of the Roman Catholic Church. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. 1926

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 753 NM - 2 MR . W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, I would very much like to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. the Premier. I am not sure if the ·Premier moved a motion; if he did, Sir, I would like to second it on behalf of this side of the House, a motion of congratulations for Bishop Penney, now Archbishop elect, on his elevation to replace Archbishop Skinner, and also,of course, 1927

April 5, 1979 Tape 754 Mr. W. N. Rowe: our warmest regards to Archbishop Skinner after long years of dedicated service to church and community in Newfoundland. Archbishop Skinner, of course, Sir, is a very, very well respected, tremendously well known theologian, as PK - 1 well as the head of the church, the Catholic Church in this Province, and everybody wishes him all the best in his retirement. Bishop Penney is well known to every Newfoundlander I am sure, Mr. Speaker, and every one wishes him all the best as well in his new job which carries with it some very onerous burdens and duties.

One thing, I am not sure if the Premier mentioned it or not, but Bishop Penney was for ·a number of years parish priest in Marystown, and I am a little bit sorry that the hen. member for Burin-Placentia West (Mr. Canning} is not here at the moment, because I am sure he has the fondest memories of those days as well. I am delighted, Sir, to associate ourselves with the · remarks of the hen. the Premier and to second the motion to send words of congratulations and best wishes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (MR.

OTIENHEIMER): It is moved and seconded that suitable letters of congratulations and best wishes be sent to His Excellency Bishop Penney and His Grace Archbishop Skinner. Those in favour "Aye", contrary "Nay", carried. PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of 291 residents of Burlington,Middle Arm, and Smith's Harbour in my district.

The prayer of the petition, Sir, is this; it says that 11since 1973 four petitions have been sent from the three communities in this area to our district representative for presentation to the House of Assembly requesting that the road from Burlington to the Baie Verte Highway connecting our communities and 1928

April 5, 1979 Tape 754 Mr. Rideout: the local roads be upgraded. Our roads now are in much worse state of deterioration and with a goodly portion of the Burlington-Baie Verte Highway road being used considerably by huge wood trucks is bound to worsen. "The residents of Burlington, Smith's Harbour and Mi.ddle Arm are fully aware of the present economic sitation PK - 2 in our land. However,our first appeal was made in much better time and we are now disturbed at such near indifferences to our situation. Once again we are making an appeal and we are asking for due consideration that action tie taken this Spring.

We are requesting three things~ one,that the Burlington Road to the Baie \ferte Highway be straightened and given a good covering of gravel and the guardrails be put near the Burlington Baie Vert.e Highway intersection. Two, upgrading of the road connecti.ng the three conmunities and put .in guardrails at Perry's Cove and Mili's Cove. And three, pave the local roads in the three conmunities involved." 1.929

April 5, 197 9 Tape 755 SD - 1 HR. T. RIDEOUT: Hr. Speaker, in speaking in support of the petition, let me point out as does the prayer of the petition that this is not a new request, This request has been made every year to the representative for the area who, by the way, has only been me since l975 7but it has been made every year since 1973, the same request, and I would ask, Mr. Speaker, that the tlinister of Transportation and CoiiiiiiUnications (Mr. C. Brett) in particular remember and recall the reasonableuess of this particular request.

Those residents are not demanding, they are not even requesting pavement, All they are requesting,and requesting very reasonably,that the main road connecting the Baie Verte access road to their three communities be straightened out a bit, a bit of gravel put on the top of it, be widened out where necessary and a few guardrails put in where necessary. ~ow, Mr. Speaker, I would submit to the minister and to the government that there has not been a more reasonable request come before this House as this particular petition. I remember last year presenting the petition and I remember doing it the year Defore.

Their request is so reasonable, ~1ey are not asking or demanding pavement,they are just asking that the road be made a little bit better to drive over, They have made that request every year for the past five years but there has not~other than the cutting of a bit of brush in a few places~ ~ee• any major improvement. Mr. S~eaker, let me add also that the road in question, the Burlington Road, is used very much, very heavily by wood trucks, heavy wood trucks hauling great quantities of wood from the Burlington-Hiddle Arm area out for processing in the Corner Brook mill.

Also, of course, there millions of pounds,I believe it is somet hing like 3 or 3.5 million pounds of fish landed in Smitn's Harbour last year which, one way or another, had to be trucked over that particular road. 1930

Ap ril .5, 1979 Tape 7.55 so - 2 $. T. lro>EQUT • so, Sir, the economic conditions are there, the reques.t is so reasonable; all they are asking is that the situation be :llllproved. They have not even gone as far yet as to .ask for pavement,although I would. SU$gest that the econOmics of the situation demand, since it is one of the major arterial roads serving three c:olllllllmi-t.ies on the Baie Verte Peninsula, I wo.uld suggest that the situation, the economie situation demand it. The people themselves have not even gone t4at far.

Their request is so reasot~-able~that the road be straightened, t:hat there .. -ould be some gravel put on it so that you would not beat the bott0111 out of your ca+ driving over it,and that it be widened and a few guardrails ... put on where ae~essary. So• Mr. Speaker, the prayer of the petition is one of the mo.st reasona.Dle pr-ayers of any petition pres~ted to this Rouse and I 'llould ho.pe .that the minister would, see fit this year to find a feli '-hundred thousand dollar~;~ 1931.

April 5 , 1979 Tape No. 756 DW - 1 ~~ . T. RIDEOUT: his budget, in his department's budget, to do somecl1ing about it. I would also hope that the Premier, then the last immediate representative for that ~articular area,wculd also lend his support and use the support of his office in influencin~ his minister to ensure that this year something is done about that request that has come in five years in a row. In closing,let me say to the Minister of Transportation and Communications CMr.

Brett),I hope that he will be a little bit more reasonable than his predecessor of last year who,when we asked them to put a bit of liquid calcium on the road, did the bit that the woods trucks moved over only and did not do out in the communi­ ties. Mr. Speaker, I table the petition and asked that it be referred to the department to which it rela~es. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER):The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W.N. ROWF.: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition presented by the member for Baie Verte- l~te Bay (Mr. Rideout). Sir, I have seldom heard a more reasonable request in the han.

Rouse from communi­ ties wanting their roads upgraded. These three communities-Burlington, Smith's Harbour, Middle Arm-which used to form part of the historic district of Green Bay represented by the Premier until the last redis­ tribution, these three communities, Sir, have,as my hon. colleague has s~id,made this request time and time again. In the case of the Burlington road, Sir, they are not even asking for pavement,which surprises me.

Perhaps they hope that by bending over backwards and being more reasonable than the circumstances call for that they may have their request looked at favourably by the administration. But, Sir, the request made by these communities- the Burlington road to be up~raded~ a new coating of gravel and the guard rail~ and the connecting roads and the pave~ent through the three communities - is completely reasonably,~r. Speaker,! certainly hope that the government's sees its way clear, and the new ~~nister of Transportation and Communications sees his way clear to get this work 1932

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 756 ~ . H.N. ROWE: done,not an elaborate amcunt of work, not an extravagant amount of work,but to get this reasonable want done in the upcoming construction season. HR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER) :The hon. member for LaPoile. ~ tR. S. NEARY: ~.r. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition presented by my colleague the member for Baie Verte - White (!fr. Rideout) on behalf of his constituents, Sir, in the community of Burlington on the ~aie Verte Peninsula. The prayer of the petition is a very reasonable one as been stated by previous speakers . One may wonder, Mr.

Speaker I know, Your Honour, we are not permitted to enter into the realm of debate when we are speaking on petition~ but one cannot help but wonder out loud, Sir, where will the money come from? Where will the money come from to upgrade this road, this reasonable request? AN HON. MEMBER: We will have to sell the copying machines. MR. S. ~<EA.RY: No, ~rr. Speaker, it is not a question of selling the copying machines. It is a matter,Sir, I would think - if I was allowed to say so, ~r. Speaker, if I ~as allowed to make a suggestion to the government that I am 1933

April 5,1979 Tape No. 757 AH-1 ~. NEARY: not allowed to make,I would suggest that they follow the recommendation in the Auditor General's Report and that is collect the $10 million outstanding in SSA tax in this Province. SOME HON . MEMBERS: ~fR. MARSHALL: ~. SP~(MR.Ottenheimer) MR. MARSHALL: Oh, oh! A point of order. A point of order. Anticipated by the bon. ~ember for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) I know or he would not have gotten into this realm • But this is obviously in the realm of debate, we are now involved in petitions and the rule, Standing Order 97,clearly sets forth what may be talked about in supporting a petition. There is no doubt that the hon.member did stray from the straight and narrow path. I think that perhaps there was a sign which he followed mistakenly, the sign of course was the reference to the photo-copy machine and both areas of comment really are not related to the prayer of petition. The hon. member. MR.

NEARY: I thank Your Honour for bringing me to task, Sir, on suggesting to the government that they collect the $10 million referred to in the Auditor General's Report to help upgrade that road. I am sorry ! •. said that, Sir, and if I suggested to the government that they ground the helicopters I would regret having said that too, Sir, because I know that would not be in order. And if I suggested that they cut out all the political appointments and keep the Norma and Gladys in the Province that would not be in order either, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Before the point of order on which I interrupted the hon. member. SOH! HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR . SPEAKER: Order, please! Before referring to the point on which I interrupted the hon. member I do have to point 1934

April 5,1979 Tape No. 757 AH-2 MR. SPEAKER: out to people in the gallery that the rules do not permit any form of participation whether it be showing approval, disapproval, h~ur, tragedy or whatever. The general public is always welcome to the gallery and all bon. members are pleased to see them here but the rules do not permit their participation in any way.

The point on which interrupted the bon. member was that by stating up the things that he could say if they were in order but saying that he will not say them because they would be out of order although an ingenious device does not bring him within the realm of being in order. MR . NEARY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and, Sir, just to clue up I of course support the prayer of the petit:ion. I am not allowed to tell the ministe.r where he can get the 1110uey. I wish I could, lllr. Speaker. I wish I could enter into a debate on where the minister is going to get the money.

I have given the hon. gentleman a couple of clues. I would suggest to the bon. gentleman that he take the Auditor General's Report home tonight, read it 1935

April 5, 1979 Tape 758 EC - 1 HR. NEARY: himself and then sharpen his pencil and he might be able to find the dollars necessary to upgrade that road, which as I indicated is a very reasonable request. Cut out the extravagance and waste, Sir, that is where the hon. gentleman can get the dollars. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) Port au Port. The hon. the member for MR. HODDER: gr. Speaker, I beg leave to present a petition - well, I have two petitions here, Mr. Speaker. If I could follow the same procedure as yesterday and perhaps have five or six minutes? MR.

SPEAKER: Does the hon. member have leave? Agreed. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, these petitions come from a community known as Piccadilly Slant, Piccadilly. It is actually one large community, but geographically it is divided in two, one part being known as Piccadilly Slant and the other part being known as Piccadilly Head. The prayer of the petition is that "The drinking water in our community has been shown to be in large measure contaminated, and

whereas many people in the area have no water at all, we, the undersigned residents of the community of Piccadilly Head request the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to take steps to provide adequate drinking water in our community." Mr. Speaker, the prayer of the other petition is similar, and each of those petitions ~re signed by twenty-three residents of each part of that community. Now as I said, Mr. Speaker, this community runs some five or six miles, and in the community there are areas where there is good drinking water: however, there are two areas of the community from which these 1.936

April 5 , 1979 Tape 758 EC - 2 MR. HODDER: petitions arise where - well, to start,. last year I delivered a petition from the area of Picc;adilly Head, and (!.gain, these people have petitioned. I believe as well, they have applied to the Department of Municipal Affairs for an unincorporated water programme or a programme for water for unincorporated communities. In the oth.er part of Piccadilly, Mr. S·peaker, I had the Department of Health recently go out to test a number of wells in that particular area.

Now I might point out to hon. members - and I will table this afterwards - tha .t these water samples are taken as a coliform or a bacteria count per 100 millilitres of water, an,d greater than four is harmful and the water should be boiled for drinking. I have the results of eight of those wells which were recently taken and as I pointed out, the count should uot be more than mur per 100 millil.itres of water.

And i will just read out the numbers without reading the names: one well was sixteen, another, twenty-six, another thirty-six, again, another twenty-six, sixteen, forty, thirty-six and one hundred and eighty. That 1937

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 759 NM - 1 MR. HODDER: means, Mr. Speaker, that

whereas four is dangerous to health, one particular well in that area which people thought because the water tasted good that the whole family was drinking had 180 coliform counts per 100 millimeters of watF.!r. Now Mr. Speaker, this is a very, very grave situation. I believe that this is a emergency situation. Now that is in that one area. Last year before I presented a petition here in the House of Assembly for the other particular area. Theoepartment of Health did a survey.

I did not get the reports myself but they were sent to the Piccadilly Head area, the Department of Municipal Affairs sent a team out afterwards and they did a survey and the results were substantially the same and the people were told to boil their drinking water at all costs, or to make sure that there was some sort of chlorination in their wells. Now, Mr. Speaker, all through this area there are - it is a very flat area, it is very close to sea level.

It is an area which just recently had a garbage collection instituted and it is an area which by the government's own admission in which wells cannot be drilled and people can only have surface water. There are quite a few families building new homes there. The water lev~l has become contaminated and these people either do not have any water at all or their water is contaminated with some of them having highly contaminated water. Now, Mr. Speaker, this I think should almost be declared a disaster area. The people here cannot go to a nearby brook. They have to travel in some cases four and five miles to get water.

I will- also tell you that the covent at Piccadilly Slant, the sisters there have to bring the water in their cars, drinking water, they have 1938

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 759 NM - 2 MR. HODDER: water from an artesian well which is also contaminated there but they must bring drinking water from some distance to the convent. Mr. Speaker, I do not think that this is a situation that should exist in this Province at this particular time. I feel that every Newfoundlander should have the right to good drinking water.or at least some drinking water. And, Mr.

Speaker, I would urge the Department of Municipal Affairs, both of these areas have submitted applications to the d.epartment or they are in the process of submitting applications, I would urge the minister to further look into this affair. I will table those counts for him with the names and the copies of those counts. I would urge him to please look into this. :=lis officials on the West Coast are al.ready aware of this situation, to look into this matter and fpr goodness _sakes this SUII1lller find them some sources of drinking water because there has been reported cases of children being s.ick there and 1.939

April 5, 1979 Tape 760 PK - 1 Mr. Hodder: by his department's admission the situation is a very, very grave one. I will refer the petition to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENEHIMER): The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, would like to speak briefly in support of the petition, Sir. could not help but noticing the strong feelings that the hon. member had, the hon. gentleman, my colleague had in presenting this petition, Sir, in behalf of his constitutents who are looking for something that most people in Newfoundland take for granted and that is just plain ordinary drinking water, cool, clear water. It reminds me of the song, Sir, All day I face the barren waste without a taste of water, cool, clear water. Mr.

Spiaker, I might draw to the attention of hon. members of the House that the two names in the petition, the two communities Piccadily Slant and Piccadily Head, very colourful Newfoundland names indeed. But, Sir, I support the petition because in this day and age, Mr. Speaker, it is not oood enough, it is not good enough for people to have to go through the trouble and the inconvenience of circulating a petition for drinking water. It is unbelievable.

I mean, you know, if you read that in the paper in darkest Africa somewhere, in Idi Amin's country, you know, you would say that, well, you know, you would probablv understand it. But here in Canada, in Newfoundland people without any drinking water the drinking water they have is polluted, and you could find that I suppose in numerous communities in Newfoundland. I know I am very concerned personally about the drinking water in Channel-Port aux Basques. I am very concerned about it.

And I had the water analyzed recently and there is a fibre in the water similar to an asbestos fibre as a result of asbestos pipes that were used years ago when that waterline was installed. Now there is nothing to be alarmed about at the moment, Sir . I am told by the Memorial University Chemistry Department that analyzed the water that it is not harmful to 1940

April 5, 1979 Tape 760 PK - 2 Mr. Neary: the digestive system. I may consult • I may look for some free medical advice from the hon. member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey) on that. But it is worth taking a look at. believe I saw somewhere a year or two ago in a report that the government was undertaking to have tests- e. n analysis made of a 11 of the drinking water in Newfoundland, the 1941

April 5,1979 Tape No. 761 AH-1 MR. NEARY: De~artment of Health. I believe that should be done, ~r. Speaker. I have been in communities in this Province - I do not know if the water is fit to drink in some of the places I have been , there is a brownish colour on a lot of the water. My bon. friend probably thinks it is what comes out off the bottle that makes the water brown but that is not correct. MR.. RIDEOUT : We tested the water system the other day. MR. NEARY: That is right. MR. DOODY: Tell us about Bell Island and the shaoP. yn~ l~ft that in. MR. NEARY: Well I left it in pretty good shape.

As a matter of fact the minister would do well to follow the example that was set on Bell Island where they have to depend exclusively on artesian wells, drilled wells for their water supply. The trouble with the policy the government has been following is that they go out and drill these holes. There is enough wells drilled in Newfoundland now to sink her• Down in the Qreat Northern Peninsula before the 1971 election there was more holes drilled down there, Sir, - it is a wonder she is afloat down there at all. But the trouble is they were left there. They ·~ere not even capped. MR.

RIDEOUT : They dry out when the sun gets at them. MR. NEARY: That is right. No pumps, no pump houses, no hydrants so that the people could come down or hook into the line if they wanted to or bring the water home in barrels. None of this was done. The holes were just put in the ground and nothing was ever done with them. There is one down in Grand Bay West, down in my own district of Channel-Port aux Basques and, Sir, I guarantee you this if the bon. gentleman do not do something about it Dulcie Kettle is not going to stick with the administration very much longer. She is getting kind of fed up. 1942

April 5,1979 Tape No. 761 AH-2 MR. NEARY: I support the prayer of the petition, Sir, and I hope that the minister will not think that this is a great joke and just ignore it. These people, Sir, are asking for something that pretty well everybody in Newfoundland today take for granted and that is drinking water. MR. SPEAKER:(Mr.Ottenheimer) Bay d'Espoir. Ron. member for Burgeo - MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I too want to rlse in support of the petitions presented by my colleague from Port au Port. The prayer of the petitions are very simple, very pointed, They want some drinking water.

It is not too much to ask in this day and age, Mr. Speaker. I know the feeling of the hon: member. I have stood in this House and presented similar petitions on behalf of the people of McCallum for drinking water. We are now at stage one. They have now found the drinking water except it is some distance from the community and the question is to get it into the community. But I am hopeful that can be done this year. To the immediate subject at hand, the need for drinking water in the two communities in the Port au Port Peninsula, Mr. Speaker, I would submit it is 1943

April 5, 1979 Tape 762. so - 1 MR. R. SllJNOl'IS: very difficult for this party here or the administration to convince the people of this Province that we are all on the threshold of great wealth and development and full employment and about to become a have Province of Canada and about to enter our Canaan, our promised land, when ~hey cannot find enough water to drink, when they cannot get any assistance from government to get fit drinking wa~er. It is demeaning, Mr. Speaker, that people should have to even sign those petitions to make their concerns known to government on such a basic point.

Demeaning, very demeaning and I would hope that in the very near future the minister responsible could tell this House that his priority is in this particular area, one of his priorities is in ·this particular area. to determine once and for all where the people of this Province are located who have still that very basic need, the need for some decent drinking water, the assurance, the certainty_ that taey can drink a glass of water without running the risk of becoming physically ill.

There are a lot of people in this Province, literally thousands of people, including those in those two communities including those in the community of McCallum in my district. There are still literally thousands of people in this Province, Hr. Speaker, who cannot have that basic assurance, they do not have that certainty that when they take a glass of water or when their small youngster takes a drink of water they do not nave the assurance that that water is fit to drink or that as a result of drinking that water they will not become physically ill. It is demeaning, it must change, MR.

SPEAKER: (Mr, Ottenheimer) MRS. H. MCISAAC: ~on. member for St. George's. Mr. Speaker, I would like to support this petition. In speaking to it, I, too, have these problems in my district. It certainly is about time in this day and age when people can at least expect a little decent drinking water. 1944

April 5, 1979 r a pe 762 HRS. li. r!CISAAC: No'W'1 I feel that in most cas~s the. peOple who are respousible are not closely enough associated to the problem .to really . appreciate :it • . I .do not see too many proble11111 in the St. John's area as far as dr~g water is coucerued and I nave spent .a few year.s in here and I have never seen · people going wit.h five gall,ou plastic buckets with water. I have uevet seen that happen. so - 2 !fit. RIDEOUT: That is right - or ClarenviUe. or llarbour G'race. HRS • li. MCISAAC: And in my area . maybe they do in one area of St.

John's I believe there is a rock problem or wha~ver but I am sure that that too clUJ. be solved. In my area iU particular this is why I can appreciate the p'rOblelll that tl!.e people in the District of Port au l'o.rt have• 1945

April 5, 1979 Tape No . 763 DH - 1 HRS. !·!CISAAC: I can think of so many communities right in my own area just without doing too much thinkingJI have Searston, Black Duck, Seal Rock, St. David's, Jeffrey's, Fighlands, Tompkins, ~fcKay's, St. Fintan's, Robinsons, St. Andrew's, rodroy, Hoodville I can go on -O'Regan's, Upper Fen:y all sort of communities who do not have suitable ~rinking water and anywhere that you want to go on the West Coast in those .particular areas - fine in St. George's, in part of St.

George's we have town water, Stephenville Crossing, one.section has it and Gallants.The rest of the communities in my area as c well as in the Port au Port area are hauling water, getting water by the best means possible, by any means that may be possible. And you see trucks going with buckets in the back, five gallon buckets loaded with water. Now in this day in age this ia a little bit too much to expect people to do, haul water for all house- hold needs, for drinking purposes, cooking purposes, for the bathroom, for washing.

There is no way in the world that people rshould be put through this sort of inconvenience in this day in age along with the health hazards that are involved in a lot of communities. Most communi- ties have to boil the water, they boil the water some of them do other~ take a chance on it. And it is not goin~ to be too long before there is going to be a serious epidemic and it will .be too late then to lock the barn door after the horse has gone. I certainly think that this is the basic necessity of life and I do not think that people are asking for too much when they ask for a drop of decent drinking water.

And if there is any­ thing on our list of priorities I think that right at the top of the priority list should be decent, suitable drinking water for the people of this Province. I wholeheartedly support this petition and hope that the government will take a serious look at one of the top priorities in the Province today. Thank you. 1946

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 763 m< - 2 ORAL QUESTIONS ~IR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENREI~R) :The han. member for LaPoile. HR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, in last session of the House, Sir, a ·~tter came up in this House, a matter of grave concern to Newfoundlanders and to Newfoundland about the action that Quebec Province was taking in barring workers from that Province, barring residents of other Provinces from going to work on construction projects in the Province of Quebec.

Now I understand from the news last week that Ontario and Quebec have entered in to an agreement, a mutual agreement whereby workers can move from one Province to the other from Ontario to Quebec and vice versa. Now what is the situation concerning this Province? Can Newfoundlanders now move across the bo.rder now to Quebec to go to work on construction projects in Quebec or do they have to get a work permit? . Just what is the situation? Could the Premier give us an update on that matter that was raised last session? ~IR • . SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, the whole question of workers in Labrador City, Wabush and in Quebec the whole question of contwactin~ out, the whole question of environmental concerns as it relates to problems in Labrador City/Wabush is now being looked at by government, has been over the last week or so.

There was some work done on it two or three months ago and hopefully the whole matter of the Labrador Hest situation as it relates to work permits, as it relates to contracting out, as it relates to environmental concerns will be contained in a fairly major policy position that the government will be putting forward in the next couple of weeks as we address ourselves to some of the major issues in the Province. That is one of the other ones that we uill be addressing. }!R. S. NEARY: ~ !R. SPEAKER: A supplementary question, Ur. Speaker. A supplementary. ' 1947

Al'r11 S, 1979 Tape Nb . 76J DW - 3 MR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, this policy that Quebec is following barring workers from working on construction in Quebec to my way of thiaking strikes at the very b'asis of Confederation, Sir. And I think it is a foolhardy policy and I believe it should be dealt with immediately.

So I am wondering if the Premier would send for the legislation that is being passed in Ontario and Quebec, send for the agreement to see if there is any way that Newfoundland can enter into negotiations with the Province of Qilebec so that workers can move freely back and forth across the border.And not wait for a report of a commission of inquiry eight or ten liLOnths down the road from now. This should be dealt with immediately before Ontario signs the agreement in my opinion. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER) :The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Well,Mr.

Spea~r, it is going to be dealt with immediately in the next few weeks it is not going to be 1948

April 5, 1979 Tape 764 PK - 1 Premier Peckford: eight or ten months away, as the hon. member points out. The other question is, it seems to me that when you are talking about the Ontario-Quebec Border, and then you talk about the Newfoundland and Quebec Border, there are differences in it. The exchange across the Border between Ontario and Quebec is a bit different insofar as you are not getting into the language problem;so much as you would be on the Newfoundland­ Quebec Border.

I think it is easier for Ontario workers to participate and get jobs near the Border of Quebec than it will be for Newfoundlanders or Labradorians to get jobs in Quebec. I do not think the language problem is so grea.t on the Ontario-Quebec Border as it is on the Newfoundland-Quebec Border which tends to mitigate against Newfoundlande~s going into Quebec as it relates to our own Border.

But the hon. member can be assured that the government is fully aware of the situation as it relates to that and other difficulties now being experienced in Labrador West and we will be addressing oursleves to it in a major way in the next couple of weeks. MR. NEARY: A fi na 1 supplementary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): A final supplementary. MR. NEARY: The only way Ontario could get results, Mr.

Speaker, was to threaten to bar Quebec workers from going into Ontario. l~ill the Premier indicate if his government is prepared to take similar action in order to get agreement with the Province of Quebec, that we will send their workers back across the Border unless they agree to allow Newfoundland workers to work on construction projects in the Province of Quebec. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, we will examine all alternatives and come up with a strategy and tactic that we think will work most advantageously for our workers. 1949

April 5, 1979 Tape 764 PK - 2 MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): The han. member for Fogo followed by the han. members for Bu.rgeo-Bay d'Espoir and St. George's. CAPT. E. WlNSOR: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the han. Minister of Fisheries (Mr.!~. Carter). As the minister is well aware the lobster fishery is fast approaching, the fishermen along the Northeast Coast are very much concerned about two problems, and this may be a double-barrel question. One, will there be a minimum price far lobsters? Number two, it is rumoured that there will be two foreign vessels stationed somewhere in Newfoundland.

The fishermen would like to know where. MRS. MCISAAC: What will they be doing? CAPT. E. WINSOR: Buying lobsters. You know, will they be centrally located or where will there position be in order that the fishermen may be able to take advantaqe of perhaps a higher price than they may be able to get from the buyer onshore? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, the matter of prices for lobsters is something that I presume will be negotiated by the Fishermen's Union. Certainly last year they negotiated a price, a much higher price than that paid the previous year.

With respect to the matter of a vessel coming in to buy lobsters I am not aware of that. will certainly look into it, and maybe provide an answer tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir, I had indicated I would recognize him. MR. SIMMONS: A question for the han. Minister of Finance. I want to raise a question revated to the financial provisions of Term 29 of the Terms of Union between Newfoundland and Canada in 1949.

Specifically I want to ask the minister whether to his knowledge his department or perhaps through the Department of Intergovernmental Affairs or the government generally have made any approach to Ottawa on this subject with a view to having the provisions of the Term renegotiated so that the $8 million payable annuall -" to help us 1950

April 5, 1979 Tape 764 PK - 3 Mr. Simmons: upgrade our services can be translated into today's dollars which.! understand would approximate something of the order of $40 million in today's terms. Could he indicate whether the government or his department has taken any initiatives on this matter? MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER): The hen. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I think the information have available at the moment is that there was an approach last year which I believe did not meet with much measure of success. I could get further details on that if the hen. member should wish. MR.

SIMMONS: Yes. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: I should thank the minister for undertaking to get some details. But could he at this moment since he has indicated some knowledge of the approach that was made, could he indicate to the House what kind of an approach it was whether it was by letter or whether there was a presentation by some delegation from the Newfoundland Government? MR. FLIGHT: No coaching 'Alex'. MR. SIMMONS: I am just waiting until fearless is finished with him. Mr.

Speaker, I was asking the Minister of Finance, not the putative minister, the Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker, and there is only one thank goodness - and thank goodness it is him too - the Minister of Finance whether he would indicate to us some of the circumstances, whether the approach that he refers to was made by a delegation from the 1951

April 5, 1979 Tape 765 EC - 1 MR. SIMMONS: Newfoundland Government and about what time this approach was made and to whom, whether to the Prime Minister or who at the federal level. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) of Finance. The hon. the Minister DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I do not know if my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Doody) would like to make a statement or supply some answer at this time.

All I can say personally is that if this is not forthcoming from my colleague or if his answer that is forthcoming is not complete enough for the hon. member opposite, I will undertake later to supply as many details as I can. MR. DOODY: MR. SPEAKER: and Energy. ~IR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker. The hon. the Minister of Mines If I may, Sir, having been invited to participate, unaccustomed as I am to public speaking - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DOODY: - nevertheless there was an approach, a very definite approach made to Ottawa last year, as the hon. minister has indicated.

It was made in writing and it was also made by the Premier accompanied by myself. We met with Mr. Trudeau - I think - yes, he is Prime Minister now for a little while - and a Mr. Chretien, who was Finance Minister and Mr. Jamieson, the Newfoundland representative in the Cabinet. We met in the Prime Minister's office and we discussed in detail the difference between the $8 million and · the intent of it, what it meant in today's dollars and how we felt it should be transformed into a meaningful sum of money to try to bridge that gap and services between the other parts of Atlantic Canada 1952

April 5, 1979 Tape 765 EC - 2 MR. DOODY: and Newfoundland, which was its intention. It was listened to rather sympathetically by the politicians; subsequently the mandarins in Ottawa and the senior officials of Finance and Treasury Board met to work out the details, and I am afraid the details are still somewhere on the drawing board in Ottawa because it fell on very, very deaf ears. Mr. Shoyama, the chief financial mandarin in Ottawa, felt that we peasants on the East Coast were sufficiently looked after in terms of transfer payments and we really should not expect too much more.

This was an unsolicited political advertisement on behalf of the P.C. Party. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SIMMONS : Oh, oh! Mr. Speak _er, a supplementary . MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: A supplementary to the Minister of - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. DOODY : Do I hear the clashing of knives? MR. SIMMONS: The minister would know what the sound is like from having heard them - just behind him. MR. DOODY : long while. MR. SIMMONS: I am going to stay nasty for a He is tender, Mr. Speaker. Three weeks after he is still pretty tender. A question for the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Doody). I got a little encouraged when the Minister of Finance (Dr. J. Collins) talked about his making a statement. I hoped it was on the other subject I approached him on earlier today when I asked him if his posters and leadership campaign had any party affiliation because he may have occasion to use them, and he let us know he is quite available. So he has been eyeing that seat there, Mr. Speaker, I noticed, all afternoon. 1953

April 5, 1979 Tape 765 EC - 3 MR. SIMMONS: The supplementary, Mr. Speaker - I was not encouraged but I was kind of reassured by what he had to say about the mandarins in Ottawa because I think that is what we found no matter what the party stripe is in power in Ottawa, that very often the big fight is with the senior Public Service in Ottawa and their attitudes towards this part of the country. And my supplementary for the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr.

Doody) is whether or not there is some provision for follow-up at the political level, or does he indicate from his reference to the mandarins that perhaps he fears this is getting bogged down now into just an exchange of correspondence? Is there some provision for a further follow-up a~ the political level in the federal government? MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) The bon. minister. MR. DOODY: I am really not in a position to answer that, Sir. I simply participated in this at the invitation of the Minister of Finance to do some background on it.

What the current status of the discussions are is obviously in the area of the Department of Finance and the officials of Finance and Treasury Board. I really have no idea what the current status is. I would assume that the people in Ottawa are perhaps somewhat more 1954

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 766 NM - 1 MR. DOODY: sympathetic today than they were the day before the election was called. I really do not know what the situation is. The people in Finance will have to bring you up to date on that. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Ottenheimer): I have indicated I recoqnize the han. member for St. George's next. MRS. MCISAAC: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I just stated a while ago that I felt water was number one priority. I have another one high on my list of priorities which is recreation.

I would like to ask the minister what the situation is now with respect to the stadium for St. George's? I believe that in the last correspondence they received was asking for more detailed information for further consideration. Can the minister tell me now where that stands? MR. SPEAKER:' Affairs and Housing. MR. N. WINDSOR: The han. Minister of Municipal Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have not received any information ~ecently from the St. George's Stadium Committee. The position on financing of the stadium is that the last request that we received from them unfortunately was turned down by government.

Hopefully we can have another look at it the coming year. MRS. MCISAAC: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplem~ntary. MRS. MCISAAC: Mr. Speaker, I am at a loss to know which route to take and I am sure that the council and Stadium committee would also be. I wonder since the minister has been involved in stadiums, I believe he was the engineer on the Mount Pearl arena, or was involved with them at the time, maybe he could direct us a little as far as the application is concerned and tell us just exactly what is required. Would the 1.955

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 766 NM - 2 MRS. MCISAAC: minister suggest that we take the same route that Mount Pearl took and if so could I have the details on it to pass on to the Stadium Committee? MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Ottenheimer}: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. N. WINDSOR: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I would certainly give the han. member any assistance that I can personally give her. Generally the approach of course as hon. members know is to provide an application to the department with some plans and specifications and cost estimates and so forth that we can consider.

And having received that information we will give it due consideration and hopefully some funding can be made available sometime. MRS. MCISAAC: MR. N. WINDSOR: MRS. MCISAAC: A supplementary. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, it seems as though this thing is, you know, we are just getting the run around on this. We have submitted applications and further information and more detailed plans and what not for the past few years now and for the past few years it has been turned down, So we would like some direct guidance, something concrete.

We would like to know just exactly what avenue to take to prevent this project from being turned down again. It has been turned down now for a number of years. I think maybe the minister may be in a position to help. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. WINDSOR: Again, Mr. Speaker, I will certainly give any assistance to the hon. member or to the committee from St. George's that I can. Essentially we have never received any detailed plans or specifications. We have 1956

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 766 NM - 3 MR. WINDSOR: received some cost estimates, whether they were based on sound engineering estimates or not, I do not think they were. But this is the sort of thing we would like to see and I think the last time I spoke with the hon. member I suggested to her that the committee retain a qualified consultant to come up with some bona fide cost estimates based on sound engineering, design or at least preliminary design. MRS. MSIAAC: I am not satisfied with the minister's answer and I would like to debate it on the Late Show. MR. SPEAKER (Mr.

Ottenheimer): The hon. member for Stephenville, followed by the hon. member for Bellevue. MR. MCNEIL: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing. Could the minister indicate if Newfoundland and Labrador Housing land development in Stephenville, know as area thirteen development will go on the market this coming Summer? As the minister is aware this development has been ready for the past two years. What Ls the reason for the delay? Why has it not gone on the market? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. WINDSOR: Mr.

Speaker, I will have to take notice of the question. I am aware of area thirteen, I have been there personally as the hon. member knows, and looked at it and I am concerned about area thirteen and a number of other similar areas in this Province that have been developed and for which sales are not taking place as quickly as I would like to see them. And hopefully over the next couple of weeks when we have a chance to sit down with the officials in that department we will be in a position to announce some sort of a policy, hopefully it will move these sort of developments a little faster than they have been. 1957

April 5, 1 979 Tape No. 766 NM - 4 MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Ottenheimer): The hon. member for Bellevue. ~!R. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I . have'. a question for the Premier, the present Premier. The former Premier promised here in this House of Assembly on at least three occasions that I noticed,that I was here to table the contract for the chairman of the action group. That was never done and of course obviously the former Premiel;' has 1958

April 5,1979 Tape No. 767 AH-1 MR. CALLAN: chance now. I am asking the present Premier if he intends to table or make public the contract with the Chairman of the Action Group? MR. SPEAKER:(Mr.Ottenheimer) PREMIER PECKFORD: MR. CALLAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. CALLAN: do it, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Speaker, within the next couple of days. MR. CALLAN: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: MR. CALLAN: The bon. Premier. Yes, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary. A supplementary. When will the Premier The bon. Premier. As soon as I can. Mr. A supplementary, Mr. A supplementary . ~x.

Speaker, is it the intention of the present Premier to keep the Action Group going for another year or does the present Premier think that it was a political gimmick in the first place when there were not any other ideas available for creating employment? And does the present Premier think that it has served its purpose? of the taxpayers money has been spent on it. One million dollars ~. SPEAKER: ~!R. CALLAN: it this year? MR. SPEAKER: PREMIER PECKFORD: Order, please: Could we do away with The bon.

Premier. /'.11 aspects of government spending are being now critically reviewed by the new president of Treasury Board and the new Minister of Finance and ~reasury Board in general so that when we are finished with our budgetary process we will be able to announce various areas where government thinks it can save money and various areas where 1959

April 5,1979 Tape No. 767 AH-2 ~. PECKFORD: government thinks it shcuid spend more money, 8o that process is under way now. !he Action Group and all the departments of government and the agencies are under close scrutiny to insure that if there is any inefficiencies in the system that we illiminate them and spend the money where it can be most wisely used. And in that light the Action Group will be considered with the other agencies. MR. CALLAN: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr.Ottenheimer) A final supplementary. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I can help the Premier decide to do without it.

Does not the Premier agree that the Action Group, the collect phone number and so on, does the Premier not agree that this is what members of the House of Assembly are elected to do? This is what i have been doing at least and all other members. If somebody out there has a question regarding how to start a farm or what have you or get into the fishery this is what their elected representative does,so to me at least the Action Group seems rather redundant. Does the Premier not agree and therefore will ~hat not help him decide to do away with that foolish idea? MR. SPEAKER: The ho~. Premier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: I thank the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr.Callan) for his assistance and ongoing help in making clear to citizens of this Province where they should go for financial help in establishing businesses.And any additional suggestions and information that he might have to assist govern•ent is greatly appreciated. MR. CALLAN: I am dissatisfied with the answer. I wish to debate it on the late show. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A final supplementary. Ron. member for Trinity-Bay de Verte. ~. F.ROWE: To the same question, Mr. Speaker. Could the Premier indicate whether or not there has 19.00

April 5,1979 Tape No. 767 AH-3 MR.F.ROWE: been a change in the original contractual arrangement with the Chairman of the Action Committee ? I understand it was a five year contract to start off with. Has there been any changes made to the original contract and if so, if there have been changes made would the Premier be willing to table the original contract as well as any changes that may have been made since? F!R • SPEAKER: The hon. Premier • PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am only aware of one contract. I do not know if it was amended thereafter or a second one made.

Whatever is available - if there is two contracts, if there is three, if there is one I will table the whole works. ~. LUSH: MR.. SPEAKER: MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. Hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, I want to direct a question to the Minister of Mines and Energy related to electrical power,specifically three phase. I do not know if he understands it. I do not. I accept electricity by faith but there is something called three phase power, Mr. Speaker, and it is in demand by industries and apparently there is s~e difficulty in getting this.

I know in the past couple of days or the past couple of weeks I have been approached by two industries in my own district that are trying to get this three phase power and apparently·it is very,very important to the industry. Without that the industry becomes very uneconomical and very expensive so it is: .. a very important matter. But there is a great deal of difficulty in getting this three phase power. So my question to the minister is, What is the procedure in getting this three phase power? Whom do people get it from? MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member could hardly have asked a more inappropriate person how to get three phase power. I just went through an exercise to try and get one phase power and I did not even get remotely close to the whole thing. I know if there is a difference between one phase power 1961.

Apt:il 5,1979 Tape No. 767 AH-4 :pp~;: ~ p]?vJ~lY <tilt~-~~· !IIU$1: be. •.ot" th~ would not have c~d; ~ :se t~e cii.ffetsi! names~ ;But ~ to- h~ ~ ~ ab~t a~e~a t'htiee ptWie. power., t:tt•~ , .. t:rl~r.-e U.· ·~ s.oine'·yars ago m1:d ;ber s~"'" :~ ~ out: fdd.y ~.e!1. 19o2

April 5, 1978 , Tape 768, Page 1 -- apb MR. DOODY: I have been trying to arrange the same sort of a system here and that has not quite jelled as yet. In the meantime, as far as the electrical distribution is concerned, I will take it up with the Hydro people and try to provide the hon. member with an answer. It is the energy question, I think, that the hon . member is most concerned with rather than with the power bit, would that be correct? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. LUSH: This is a very important matter, Mr. Speaker. This is very, very important.

There are industries in this Province trying to get this power and there seems to be some degree of confusion as to whom they should approach, as to who pays for it. The question is, theydo not know whom to approach, whether it is the Department of Mines and Energy, they do not know whether it is Newfoundland Hydro, nor they do not know whether it is Newfoundland Light and Power that makes this decision to distribute three-phase power to these industries. MR. DOODY: I can certainly help in that area, Sir.

Back in my formative days when I was in the business world, we had difficulty in finding out who to approach to get three-phase power installed in the premises. We approached the distributing company, and in this particular case it was Newfoundland Light, in other areas of the Province it would be the power distribution people. But these are the distributors and these are the people to whom one would apply if one was looking for three-phase power. Whom you should pay for it or how you should pay for it are two different 1963

April 5, 1979, Tape 768, Page 2 -- apb MR. DOODY: questions, I guess. How you should pay for it is a.matter of extreme difficulty today because the price of power, the price of energy are both very expensive. I really cannot tell the han. member any more than that because he obviously is not interested in listening anyway, he is carrying on a caucus meeting in the back bench. But I would be only too happy to let the han. member know the details • If the area in question is one that is serviced by Newfoundland Light, then the applicant should apply to Newfoundland Light for three-phase power.

That is fairly elementary. If it is in an area that is serviced by Bowaters or serviced by a power distribution district, or by Hydro, then they shoUld make the application there. MR. RIDEOUT; go twenty miles to a line. MR. DOODY: You might have to Well, that could very well be. It is a very expensive procedure. AN HON. MEMBER: That is what he is saying. That is what you pay for. MR. DOODY: Well, the distance from the source is obviously going to have an influence on the cost of getting it. MR. LUSH: Who pays? MR.

DOODY: Well, the customer presumably pays for it, that is how the system works in every other part of the world. MR. RIDEOUT: That is not what happened over in Triton. MR. DOODY: Is the han. the member questioning the· Premier? 1.964

April 5, 1979, Tape 768, Page 3 -- apb PREMIER PECKFORD: seems to.be. MR. RIDEOUT: Yes, that is how it A number of hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent to build a line in there. MR. DOODY: Oh, I see what the hon. member is getting at now. There has been a fish plant established at Triton and in order - MR. RIDEOUT: Right! Well, that is what he is getting at. MR. DOODY: Well, what did you ask the question for? Mr. Speaker, will you try to get the Greek chorus to try to control itself?

The Opposition benches are tragic enough as it is these days without listening to the Greek chorus coming together at the end of it. The grand dirge! Look at the empty seats and try to be happy. MR. LUSH: Answer the question. This is an important question. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER(Ottenheimer): Order, please! MR. DOODY: I think quite honeslty, Sir, the hon. member should apply his question to Hydro and ask them if it is in that particular area, and I assume that it is, and ask them where and how to get the three-phase power placed.

That is the agency of government that is responsible for that sort of thing. As for who pays and how it pays, that is something that will have to be worked out between the retailer,and in this case it might be Hydro, and the industry. Presumably, the hon. member from Baie Verte - White Bay says it is a fish plant. I can only assume that that is correct. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! 1965

Ap-ril 5, 1979, Tape 768, Page 4 -- apb MR. DOODY: Whatever. Tell us all about it. Anyway, all the.heirs apparent are leaping up, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Eagle River followed by the hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Mines and Energy concerning the uranium mine and the BRINEX situation in Labrador.

Could the minister tell us, in the view that the mine may go ah.ead now, or if it does not go ahead now because of the world situation it will be a number of years down the road, could the minister indicate whether there are any impediments or di£ficulties in the way of getting that project goin9 or of starting that uranium mine in the near futu:.:;e -? MR. SPEAKER: of Mines and Energy. MR. DOODY: The hon. the Minister There are undoubtedly a number of impediments involved in getting any new venture going. This one has been ongoing for quite a long while.

The honest answer to the question is that I really do not have all the detail on it. I know that Mr. O'Rourke, the vice-president of the company who is in charge of that particular develo~ment is due in 1966

April 5, 1979 Tape 769 EC - 1 MR. DOODY: St. John's on or around April lOth. He will be bringing us completely up to date on the situation at that time. He has had meetings in the hon. member's district and in other parts of the coast. The environmental aspects of it will be examined by government at that time and the social impact and the economic question. Some time after April lOth we will be in a position to give the House and the hon. member a more reasonable and comprehensive answer.

Right now, quite honestly, I do not have all the details and it would be just as misleading to pretend that I knew all about three-phase power. So it will have to wait for a couple of days. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) A supplementary. MR. STRACHAN: Mr.

Speaker, could the minister explain to us - I understand that question there dealing with the economics part of it and the company part of it - could the minister explain the position of the government vis-a-vis the statements from Labrador concerning land claims itself, concerning the objections by native groups to the development and the possibility of stopping it. I think •e are faced with a situation possibly that there may even be attempts at injunctions or attempts at various other routes which have occurred elsewhere in Canada and North America. Could the minister explain the position clearly on that? MR.

SPEAKER: (Mr. Ottenheimer) The hon. minister. MR. DOODY: Well, I really can not. From the Mines and Energy point of view we are obviously concerned with the development of the uranium deposit in the Kitts-Michelin area and in the surrounding area. 1967

April 5, 1979 Tape 769 EC - 2 MR. DOODY: The deposit appears to be a great deal larger than was originally expected. As to the land claims question, that is really not a question of responsibility for the Department of Mines and Energy, it is a matter of legalities, a matter of question of ownership. The federal government is involved, the provincial government, perhaps, is involved. The Department of Justice is certainly trying to look at it all very carefully.

We look to them for their advice in this particular question, but the development of the mining property, we look at it as a development opportunity and we look to the Department of Justice for advice on the land claims question. ORDERS OF THE DAy Motion, the hon. the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. W. Carter) to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Fishing And Coasting Vessels Rebuilding And Repairs(Bounties)Act," carried. (Bill No.l7 ). On motion, Bill No. 17 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Bill No. 18. Mr.

Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR. CHAIRMAN: (Mr. Cross) Ot:der, please! cart:ied. MR. NEARY: Bill No. 18. On motion, Clauses l through 6, Before we carry the bill, would the hon. gentleman indicate if the administration is considet:ing changing the names of the distt:icts, Mr. Chairman? - put a more appropriate name on the districts? 1968

April 5, 1979 Tape 769 EC - 3 ~R. ll. MARS HALL : It had been cons id ered, Mr . Chairman, but we have decided really to retain the names at present and we will see as the time - it will be a simple amendment later on if we do change it. }IR. NEARY: It is under consideration. MR. W. MARSllALL: It is under consideration, but I would not want it to be construed as a guarantee that we are going to - MR. NEARY: Well, I know. We ca·nno t get any commitments out of the government anyYav. MR . STRACHAN: Mr. Chairman, may I, by leave? M.R . W. M.ARS HALL: Certainly. Mil. CHAIRMAN: (M:r. Cross) The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR.. STRAC.RAN: that· I say this in all sincerity

April 4, 1979, Tape 770~ Page 3 -- PK Motion. th~t the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. On motion, that the Cpmmittee rise and report progress and ask leave to sit again, Mr. Speaker returned to the Chair. MR. SPEAKER(Ottenheimer): The han. Chainnan of Conmittees. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of the Whole have considered the matters to them referred and have directed me to report having passedB'ill No, 16 without amendment and ask leave to sit again. On motion,relJort received and adopted Co111nittee ordered to sit again on tomorrow. Motion, that Bill No. 18 be read a third time now, by leave, carried. 1972

April 5, 1979 Tape 770 PK - 1 Mr. Strachan: the name Eagle River: to the people there on the Southern part of the Coast, really does not mean very much at all. In fact, Eagle River was never populated as such, it was only populated as we know by the Canadian Armed Forces who had a camp there and we fought for a number of years to try to get that prevented. to stop that. But the local people in the whole area - in fact, when it was called Eagle River many people started looking around for Eagle River because they just never really heard of it apart from that context. So I am sincere in my effort.

Now that the Straits area is included in it and Mary's Harbour, Fox Harbour, Port Hope Simpson and Charlottetown, Eagle River does not mean a row of beans to them. And I am suggesting that the change should be kept in mind. if it is not at this stage. Certainly it would be worth~thile for the people themselves because there have been objections to that district being called that kind of name. It would be as difficult as calling Waterford-Kenmount after the name of a building here, you know, in the City here or something like that, that kind of connotation.

So I would like to really,forcefully put that point to the government. I do not mean it in any political context whatsoever, but it is more meaningf1Jl, and more representative over the whole Coast of Labrador. MR. CROSS: The han. House Leader. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. members for their observation, particularly the present member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan). This is something we will certainly take into consideration. The name Eagle River had been used for the other district.

And what we want to do is, if there is to be a change, we would want it changed - if this is not as meaningful as it should be we want to be assured that it is a more meaningful one. In some of the districts on the Island there are names of areas that do not strictly relate to them. But certainly I think the important thing

April 5, 1979 Tape 770 PK - 2 Mr. Marshall: is that we do have the fourth district there in Labrador. And we value the observation that has been made, and we will certainly take it into consideration. Certainly, you know, at such time anyway, which is only about two or three years time, I am not saying it is going to take two or three years time, but when the Electoral Boundaries Commission meets this will be a matter of concern to them, but the government will be considering in the meantime. Thank you very much. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR.

STRACHAN: In reference to the Northern district where live the district name is Torngat Mountains. And I would like to make a point here on the name of that district, that that name is, I think, very appropriate. There may be sometime some representation or something from the Southern part of that Torngat Mountain district from people who have never been to Torngat or never go there that they may feel that the name is not appropriate~ It mav not be representative, for instance 1 of the people in Postville or Rigolet who never get to Tornoat Mnuntains.

But I would like to put in the word now that I think it is the name for that district in a geographic and historic sense as well. I am a great collector of Labrador history, and in an historic sense they are the highest mountains East of the Rockies in Canada. They are a tremendous range of peaks. It is representative of the area, both in a cultural sense for a lot of people if they wish to look back in their history. And I think the name is very significant.

I think the same argument as we are using with the Eagle River district being changed to something else could possibly be, in the further; be made for the North. But I think fnom my point of view7 I think the name is very, very appropriate and should be kept as such. 197~

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 771 D!.)' - 1 On motion, a bill, "An Act To Provide For Additional Representation For Labrador In The House Of Assembly," read a third time, ordered passed and its title be as on the Order Paper. (Bill No. 18). MR. }!ARSHALL: Motion, second reading of a bill, "An Act To Provide For The Registration Of Qualified Social Wor (Bill No. 6). MR. SPEAKER (MR. OTTENHEIMER) :The hon. l1inister of Social Services. MR. T. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of pleasure that I introduce this bill.

As the title indicates the main purpose of the legislation is to provide for the registration of qualified social workers in the Province. Under the bill there will be a board set up made up of seven members, three of which will be from the Association of Social Workers in the Province, one person from the School of Social Work at Memorial University, two employees of the government of the Province and one person from the community at large. There will be registration provided for,keeping of a register. Basically, that is it, Mr. Speaker.The bill provides for the making of regulations by the board.

I might point out that this legislation does not mean that people who are not qualified social workers,in terms of the meaning of the act,will not be allowed to practice or t~~ork in the Province. It simply means that over a period of time it will provide a real incentive to those who are now in the employ~of the government to upgrade themselves so that they can become qualified,registered social workers. And the impac~ of the legislation is to give recognition to that profession which certainly has been sought for a long time.

I think I should point out at the same time that over a period of yearscor how ever many years itwill take 1it will mean that the services provided to our people will be greatly improved when a social worker is called for, When a problem arises within a family which reouire the services of a 1973

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 771 DW- 2 ~IR. T. HICKEY: social worker to mak e some very serious decisions affecting that family,then the family can rest in the knowledge that only- well, the best qualified people will be there to do the job.

I think it is important to point out too that although, as I have said, it will not mean that people who are not certified or qualified to be registered social workers cannot work in that profession.within a number of years it will become increasingly more difficult for people who are not qualified and who are not registered to gain employment in that profession, so that over a period of time, slowly but surely 7 the level of service provided by social workers in the Province will improve.

That is the main purpose of the bill whilst at the same time protectirrg the security of those who are already in the employ in ensuring that they can continue to work until such time as they upgrade themselves to qualify under the Act. I have much pleasure in moving second reading. MR. SPEAKER(MR. CROSS): The hon. member for Carbonear. MR. R. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, I would like to start by saying that we are not opposed to this bill. We feel that it does indeed have some merits at least in principle in that as the hon. minister said, "There is a need society to~ay to 1S'74

April 5, 1979 Tape 772 SD - 1 HR. R. ~!OORES: to protect professions whatever they are, whether they are medical doctors, engineers, social workers, surveyors or what have you, it could be fish plant workers, we have not determined yet why the Newfoundland Legislature does not permit fish plant workers to start their own professional organization. And therein, Mr.

Speaker, lies the critici~m that I am about to make about this bill, The minister got up and said that, if I recall correctly I did not hear all of his submission but I heard enough of it to know that it is a very weak presentation of what is1 in fact,a good principled, good intentioned bill, This bill will do nothing to upgrade social workers, absolutely nothing to upgrade them either professionally or academically.

What it will do and how it will upgrade them is that· this association or society will establish a selection board empowered to create an elite situation just as the doctors have created their mucky-muck situation, just as the lawyers have done with theirs and just as the Newfoundland engineers and so on have done with theirs. I would like to give you an example, Mr. Speaker, of what I am talking about, I had a friend of mine, just a few months ago, a surveyor in Newfoundland who wanted to take an examination so that he could become a suveyor.

So he went to this society, this association with its selection board and applied accordingly to be examined. ~nen I say some months ago I mean eighteen months, twenty-four months or what have you.

He still to my knowledge, does not have his ' surveyor's stamp as they call it, He nas written the test three times 7 each time the test has been different , When I say different I do not mean similar, I mean completely, absurdly different and in one case the examination was based upon a television program which he was not informed to see, nor did he see and nor did the selection committee take it into consideration that he did not see it. Now, as examinations go, that is beyond 19'75

April 5, 1979 Tape 772 SD - 2 HR. R. MOORES : ridiculous, that is absurd, it is irresponsible and it does not at all promote or encourage the basic main principles of why these associations and societies have been set up.

Once a society, whether it is the social workers or the surveyors, once they hinder the proper advance of a student, worker, what have you, into that society then it should be done away with, not only critized but abolished and done away with as an obstruction to the normal progress of a person 7in most cases a very interested and concerned student,who wishes to become or wishes to take up a certain profession in this Province. Now, I speak in some degree from experience because I have been a student of social work. I wish I could deny that like Peter denied Christ,but unfortunately you cannot.

I have been a student of social work, fact,I have quite a few courses in social work from Memorial University and because I am a liberal, that is to say, a small "l" liberal in my views, in fact in some incidences I may be considered socialist or radical in some of my views_. ':lecause I have those views it is my opinion that it would be far more difficult for me to enter a social work society as the minister is presenting here todaylhan lt would, if I were prepared to toe the establishment line, if I were prepared to bend over backwards to appeal to their philosophies and their outlooks on society and their whims and how they bend to the government.

I poin.t out to you last year : and I fear to make a comment on this, the Marlene Webber case 1976

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 773 NM - 1 MR. R. MOORES: is a prime example, a very prime example of how things become exaggerated in this faculty and how some of the people in the faculty at Memorial University pursue their goals, pursue their philosophies and the way they think about social work and social workers. I am not at all opposed to the bill. I cannot be. Because the society will protect the general public to a certain degree. Just,for instance, as the legal society protects - the Bar is it? - the association protects the general public against any person like myself, I am not a qualified lawyer.

I could very easily become one. I think one of the easiest things to become today is a lawyer, particularly of the status and the qualifications of some lawyers on Duckworth Street. But that is not the point. . The point is I cannot become a lawyer until I enter the society or the Bar Association and I am appropriately examined. And even though I may have very esteemed qualifications from law school, even though I may be an "A" student at law school,! still may not enter the society or the association or become a lawyer if I do not pass the Bar exams.

Now,if we accept the fact that nothing goes wrong, if we accept the fact that nothing is evil in society and that everything works fine then we can, I think,make the honest assumption that each and every lawyer is properly examined. And we can make the assumption that each and every social worker will be properly examined, or each and every doctor. However, Mr. Speaker, looking realistically and accepting society and people and professions as they are, that is not the case. That certainly is not the case. I give one example of a situation that I had with a constituent of 197'7

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 773 GH - 2 MR. R. MOORES: mine. years getting into medical school. He spent almost four After completing the prerequisite courses in biology and whatever a doctor has to learn in his undergraduate studies, he spent three years, almost four, passing the selection board requirements while at the same time I myself could attest to far less qualified students 1 both from Canada and from outside of Canada,getting into medical school without any objections whatever. I have the same fears about the social work. Well, I suppose you could almost say it could become a racket.

It could become an elite situation for the boys down at the university in the Social Work faculty to actually dictate, to control and to manipulate just who becomes a social worker in this Province, and there is no protection in this bill for that. The fact that the minister appoints the board and its chairman is irrelevant - absolutely irrelevant because that in itself is merely a formality. The minister will appoint essentially whom he is asked or whom he is told to appoint. So the make-up of the board and the fact that the minister appoints it is irrelevant.

The Social Work faculty at Memorial University and to a lesser degree,a very much lesser degree, the Newfoundland Association of Social Workers will appoint the composition of the board. I do not think, Mr. Speaker, as the minister said 1 that the social workers presently in the field in this Province are in a quandary situation as to whether or not they are fully recognized. I have talked to social workers. In fact, only a half an hour ago 1978

April 5,1979 Tape No. 774 AH-1 MR. MOORES: down in the cafeteria I talked to a social worker about this bill and he said; "It is the first I ever heard of it;' And his exact comments to me were, "If the government wanted to recognize us or reccgnize us properly, they should give us more salaries and more income so that we could do the job a little better than we are doing it now.'' Instead of pushing paper for four out off eight hours a day they could get out and help people the · way that people are supposed to be helped in this Province. Recognition is not a question.

I do not believe that there are ten social workers in this Province today who are in the field who should not be there,or who are there and who are not qualified to be there. Just because a person has a bachelor of arts or a bachelor of social work degree from Memorial University does not necessarily make them a qualified social worker.

I know in my district,in the regional office in Harbour Grace that services my district, that there are a number of social workers there who do not have degrees but who have fifteen or twenty years experience in the field, if I could get the equivalent experience in politics,with a same counter-balancing situation,! would rather have twenty years experience in politics than two degrees from Xemorial and five years in politics.

I think there is a lot to be said that experience breads it own wisdom and it is wisdom that we need a lot more of today than some floating academics that we have , both in this House and outside of it as well. My basic criticisms then,to recapitulate, Mr.

Speaker, is that the bill although a good bill will probably achieve its basic goal, that of protecting the general public against unqualified social workers,will set up a closed-shop, elitest situation that essentially will be out of the hands of this legislatureland by that I mean the government and the appropriate minister 1 and will go directly into the hands of the mucky-mucks at Memorial University who now see this bill as the vehicle throygh which they can manipulate the type of philosophical composition of the social workers of this Province. 1979

April 5,1979 MR. MOOIIES: MR. SPEAKER: (Mr.Cross) Leader. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 774 AH-2 Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Opposition House To reinforce a couple of the arguments that were used by my hon. colleague the member for Carbonear (Mr. Moores) Sir, in speaking for this side of the House on Bill No. 6,"An Act To Provide For The Registration OI' Qualified Social Workers." The bon. member pointed out the dangers in this kind of legislation. And it is a dangerous piece of legislation, Sir, believe me, and it will only be as good as the regulations that aee passed by the department and by the government.

If we give the Newfoundland social workers the same power and the same authority and the same kind of closed- shop as the lawyers have, the legal profession has, the Newfoundland and Labrador Bar Society, Sir, I think we would be making a grave error indeed . Mr. Speaker, one wo9ld wonder sometimes to listen.to the .Lawyers' Union talk that th'y were beholding to nobody, that they were a law unto themselves when in actual fact, Mr. Speaker, they are given their authority by this legislature.

I heard recently one of the members of the Lawyers' Union say, Well, disciplinary action might be taken against a very high ranking member of this House, Disciplinary action might be taken against a high ranking member of this House, who was doing his duty for the people of this Province I could hardly believe my ears, Sir, that that crowd do not reali~e that they could be disbanded tomorrow 1.980

April 5, 1979 Tape 775 SD - l MR. S. NEARY: by this Legislature, that their little closed-shop and the little cliques you have down in the Lawyers' Union could be wiped out with the stroke of a pen in. this Legislature. Mr. Speaker, I hope this bill will not give the social workers,the little cliques and the gangs, the same power as has been put in the hands of the Lawyers' Union who can set tneir own fees, who answer to nobody, who will not permit members of their union to advertise. You are not allowed to advertise legal fees in this Province.

You can do it out in British Columbia because the Legislature brought in a law saying it is legal in the Province of British Columbia for lawyers to advertise their legal fees. You cannot do it in this Province or you would be kicked out of the union. Too much power, Sir, too much power in the hands of that little clique, that little gang of -I was going to call them 100stly loan shPrks. In the main loan sharks.a good many of them.

Very few of them practising law as law should be practised, very few labour lawyers among them, very few criminal lawyers amongst them.-real estate agents, second mortgage lenders and real estate speculators. Mr. Speaker, I hope this bill will not put the same power in the hands of a little clique, as my hon. friend said,over at Memorial University of academics who will lay down the law. Mr. Speaker, we have seen too much of this kind of legislation in this Province. Any little group can get together, go to the government and sell them on the idea of setting up or bringing in

an act to set up their own little empire the same as the lawyers have and the same as the dentists have. The dentists - All i:iuN. MEHBER: MR. S • NEARY : What is wrong with the dentists2 What is wrong with the dentistsT I will tell the hon. gentleman what is wrong with the Dentists' Union. I had a case recently out in Port aux Basque, Hr. Speaker, where a 1.981.

April 5, 1979 Tape 775 SD - 2 MR. S. NEARY: dental surgeon immigrated to this Province from India, had practised as a dental surgeon, had worked in some of the top institutions and hospitals in India as a dental surgeon and he could not get a licence to practise in Newfoundland. Could uot get a licence. Immigrated here, married to a Newfoundland girl and could not get a licence to practise and I went to bat for him. I could not believe, ~~.

Spea~r, I could not believe the stonewalling, the red tape and the procedure that had to be used in order to get an audience with the President of the Dentists' Union, first of all to get an audience with him. That man went and sat outside the office, out ia the office of the President of the Dentists' Union. AN HON. HEMBER: Did he get a place yet? Hl<.. S. NEARY: No, I am coming to that. :.nd the president would come out and look at him and say, "What are you doing here todayJ I am busy. I have got customers, I have got patients, out! I cannot see you, out!" Day after day the gentleman did that.

When he did get to see the president,he said, "I am sorry but there is nothing we can do for you, nothing we can do. You are not even allowed to write the exam in this Province." There are enough dentists here now he was told, enough dentists. Yet, in the rural parts of the Province, ~~. Speaker, when I checked it out with the Department of Health they were crying out and begging for dentists. And here we had a qualified man, probably as qualified as any dental surgeon you will find in this Province, who was not allowed to practise lus profession because they would not let him write his exam.

They did not want any competition. I have his documents down in my office and the hon. gentleman 1982

April 5, 1979 Tape 776 EC - 1 can come down tomorrow if he wants to and have a look at the documents. The Ministry of Health have the documents, I sent all his qualifications, all his certificates, his work experience and his university degrees to the Department of Health. MR. CALLAN: The chairman of the P.C. caucus is a dentist, is he not? MR. NEARY: I know. Do not worry, I know the score. I also spoke to the member for Mount Scio (Dr. R. Winsor), who said, "Oh, yes, no problem. We will give him a hearing.

We will take a look at it." He told me where to send him, to the President of the Newfoundland Dental Society, which I did. The fellow now is down in the United States. He could not gei to first base in this Province even though down in Baie Verte my hon. colleague and the people on the Baie Verte Peninsula were begging and crying out for a dentist. In Southern Labrador, Northern Labrador - this gentleman was prepared to go to any part of this Province. He was prepared to write his exam, but he could not do it because the university from which he graduated in India was not recognized by the Dental Society.

They would not even give him a provisional licence. Now, Sir, he made an application to go down to California where he is now completing his studies which will be finished soon - completing his studies, writing his exam and then probably practicing dentistry in the United States but will not be permitted to do it in Newfoundland or in Canada - maybe in other parts of Canada, but certainly not in Newfoundland because they do not want any competition. MR. J. CARTER: What do you think of denturists? MR. NEARY: Well, the same thing, Mr.

Speaker - you have this dentists' union, who have refused so far to co-operate, who have been fighting against legalizing 1983

April 5, 19 7 9 Tape 776 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: denturists in this Province even though the government said seven years ago, six years ago, five years ago, four years ago, three years ago, two years ago and last year - said, 'We are bringing legislation into this House to legalize denturists. But as soon as the member for Mount Scio (Dr. R. Winsor)steps in, spokesman for the dentists in tbis House, down the tube goes the legislation. MR. J. CARTER: He is not the only one. MR. CALLAN: But he is one, is he not? MR.

NEARY: Down the tube goes the legislation, and the people of this Province have to pay through the nose for their dentures, for their uppers and their lowers. They have to pay, Sir, they have to pay dearly for not legalizing the denturists in this Province, and that is a result of putting too much power in the hands of one group, one clique, one gang. MR. HICKEY: That does not apply to them. MR. NEARY: MR. HICKEY: MR. NEARY: It does apply, Sir. Nonsense! Mr. Speaker, the bon. gentleman says, 'Nonsense!' Sir, this kind of legislation will put no bread on the table of the people of this Province.

This kind of legislation, Sir, will do nothing to solve the unemployment problem in this Pr.ovince. It will do nothing to reduce the cost of living in this Province. This bill and the kind of legislation that is on the Order Paper at the present time will do nothing to solve the electricity rates in this Province. Mr. Speaker, have hon. gentlemen taken the time to read the Order Paper to see the kind of legislation that is on there from an administration that says, 'Oh, boy! Look out now! There are going to be all kinds of reforms and changes -we have a new Premier, a new leader, a new 1984

April 5, 1979 Tape 776 EC - 3 !iR. ~EARY: flag, new policies. Well, what do we have on the Order Paper, Si r ? 1~ell, there is one of the bills we have, "An Act To Provide For The Registration Of Qualified Social Workers " to provide another closed shop in the Province similar to t he Lawyers' Onion, the so - called Newfoundland and Labrador Bar Society. Mr. Speaker, is there anything ~e can do about this , I wonder? Do we have the courage or are there too many lawyers in this House for us to have the courage to stand up and say, 'Look , 1.985

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 777 GH - 1 MR. NEARY: you are not going to overcharge. You are not going to charge people who are buying houses in this Province. You are not going to charge them the highest legal fees for real estate transactions in the whole of Canada~' ~n the whole of Canada - the highest in the whole of Canada right here in Newfoundland where you have the second lo•Nest per capita personal income, the highest cost of living and the highest taxes andrecord unemployment. That is what they are doing, Sir, and there does not seem to be one thing that we can do about it in this House.

They are dictating to this House. They are above this House. They are a law unto them­ selves and if we dare do our duty in this House and you happen to be a member of that union, they have the gall to go on the radio and the television and say, "For doing your duty, my friend, we are going to take away your right to earn a living. We are going to cancel your membership in our union. We are going to do that. We are going to cancel your member­ ship in the union, then you will not be able to earn a living and that will teach you a lesson. That will - " AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) . MR. NEARY: Beg your pardon? Mr.

Speaker, do that hon. crowd down there on Duckworth Street realize, Sir, that the House of Assembly can disband them and wipe them out any time they want to? MR. F. ROWE: Terrifying. MR. NEARY: Well, it is terrifying. But they have misused and abused their authority and their power that was given to them by this Legislature and they deserve to be disciplined. Obviously, Mr • . Speaker, they have not been able to do any housecleaning themselves or discipline themselves. AN HON. !V!_EMBER: Who is this you are talking about? 1.986

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 777 GH - 2 MR. NEARY: I am talking about the lawyers' union downtown. It is time we cleaned up their act for them in this House. MR. DOODY: cleaned up shortly. MR. NEARY: MR. J. CARTER: be a lawyer? MR. HODDER: MR. NEARY: not mind being a lawyer. MR. HODDER: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: MR. NEARY: I would specialize. I would would be a criminal lawyer. Yes, well, part of it will be That is right. Would the hon. gentleman like to He would rather be a fireman. Mr. Speaker, yes I would. I would More money in it. It certainly beats working. I beg you~ pardon? It certainly beats working.

No, but if I was a lawyer, I think be a labour lawyer or I I do not think, Sir, what we have in this Province in the main now - there are some, not all, but in the main I would think what you have in this Province, Sir, are not criminal lawyers. We need some good criminal lawyers in Newfoundland and we will need more if this crowd stay in office very much longer~ And we need some good labour lawyers and we are not getting them, Sir. Unfortunately, we are not getting them.

They would prefer to take the other route to spend all their time processing mortgages and getting involved in loaning money for second mortgages and real estate speculation and that sort of thing. It is too bad, Sir, but I believe, Mr. Speaker, we should_, if we are sincere and if hon. gentlemen who are sitting on the govern­ ment benches who are members of the lawyers' union who get up in this House once in a while espousing the cause of the 1987

April 5 , 197 9 Tape No. 777 GH - 3 MR. NEARY: ordinary person and trying to pretend that they are for the toiling masses - rubbing their hands, rolling their eyes and gazing heavenward - so sanctimonious and lilywhite, if they were genuinely sincere. Sir, in trying to help the ordinary people of this Province, they would bring in a few reforms right into their own organization. I know, Mr. Speaker, from my conversations with some of the young lawyers in this Province - some of the young ones, they are ready to kick over the traces and rebel. MR. DOODY: What are you on now? MR.

NEARY: I am talking about the principle of this bill - the dangers in it - the weaknesses in it. It will only be as good as the regulations that are made and if we give this crowd the same authority as the lawyers have, well, I say, "God help the people of this Province". Mr. Speaker, the member for Carbonear (Mr. R. Moores), Sir, raised the matter of mature people who have been at the business for fiteeen and twenty years. What becomes of these people now? My hen. fri .end made a very good point.

When I was mini .ster of that depart­ ment, Sir, and I cannot say that I can say it about all social workers, but I guarantee you, Sir, ~88

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 778 GH - 1 MR. NEARY: that I would rather have a mature person out in the -field any time. I would rather have a man who is raising a family and struggling with his mortgage payments and his car payments - a man who is just an ordinary person trying to make ends meet, I would rather have him out in the field working and giving advice than to have a little eighteen year old or twenty year old who graduated from the university and because they have a - MR. POWER: What is wrong with eighteen year olds? MR. NEARY: Ah, there is nothing wrong with them. I said they are not all like that, Mr.

Speaker, but I tell you what is wrong and my hen. friend asked the question, "What is wrong?" - is that they go out and these will probably be the only ones who will be allowed to join this association - this closed shop. What happens, Sir, is this. What happens, Mr. Speaker, is this - that all they have when they go out into the field is the theory. All they have is the academic things that have been taught them over at the university. They have no experience and here they are called upon to give advice to men and women who are old enough to be their fathers.

And I laid down a policy when I was in that department that we would hire,whenever possible , mature welfare officers and social workers and put them out into the field - people who had been through the mill - who had the experience - who had been exposed to the pitfalls of life and who had succeeded and who could teach other people how to succeed. That is not a condemnation of the professional social worker - MR. R. MOORES: Congratulations to the hen. member for Fortune - .Hermitage. MR. NEARY: -but it is something, Sir, to - the hon. member for Fortune - Hermitage (Mr. J.

Winsor} just got his nomination by acclamation and I want to be the first to congratulate him, Sir. 1989

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 778 GH - 2 SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, I hope now I have said enough, Sir, to indicate to the hon. minister. the weaknesses and the dangers in this kind of legislation that, as I said a few moments ago, will not put any bread on the table of the ordinary people of this Province. If it will do anything, it will take it off because no doubt the next thing we will have a high

schedule of fees. The next thing they will be hiring themselves out. The next thing they will be consultants to the minister's department and consultants to this institution and that institution and all the experts and you will be nobody but nobody unless you have a certificate, unless you got a degree from the university. Well, Sir, I do not have any degree from any university and like a lot of my colleagues on both sides of the House, none of us have a degree, but I will put my reputation as a politician in this Province up against anybody in this House - anybody. You do not have to have a degree, Sir.

All you have to do is have a bit of common sense. Experience is the best teacher - the university of practical experience. And what happens to the practical social workers? What happens to them once this bill is passed? Do you have to have a degree to join this association? MR. HICKEY: the bill. I told you when I introduced MR. NEARY: Well, I want the minister to tell us again. I want to make sure that we got him on the public record. So, Mr.

Speaker, unless anybody else wants to speak from this side, the hon. gentleman will now stand to close the debate and I would like to hear the hon. gentleman's comments on some of the points that were raised by my colleague, the member for Carbonear (Mr. R. Moores), and by myself about the weaknesses and the dangers in this kind of legislation. I am sure the hon. gentleman has some 1990

April 5, 1979 Tape No . 778 GH - 3 MR. NEARY: r;lou):)ts abOut this kind of leqislation himself.. It is restrictive leqislat.i.on. We have too much regimentation in thi.s Province. MR. R. MOORES: Th~y can prescribe the qualifi- cations. MR .• NEAR~: They can prescribe the qualifi- cations, Mr. Speaker. - they - this qroup can prescribe the qualifications o£ people who will be. put in the category of qualified social workers, just the same as the Newfoundland Medical Association that I have not 1991

Apri 1 5, 1979 Tape 779 IB-1 MR. NEARY: touched at all and I have a great deal of respect for the Medical Association. I do not agree with everything they do. Another crowd with dictatorial power who play their politics much better than we do in this hon. House, They are the experts at it, the members of the Newfoundland Medical Association. Mr. Speaker, the day may come, it may not be too far away when we should take a good hard look at some of these organizations that we have established by

an act in this House. MR. F. ROWE: Closed shops. MR. NEARY: By some of the closed shops,as my hon. friend says, that we have established by

an act of this House. And then allow them to go off without being policed, without any supervision and do what they like. Mr. Speaker, I gave two examples today. I gave one of the dentist out in Port aux Basques who could not write for his license, a qualified dental surgeon who could not write for his license, could not get a provisional license to practice in this Province. And I went on my hands and knees to the Minister of Health and to the Department of Health and I was told by the Minister of Health, "There is nothing we can do.

That matter comes under the Newfoundland Dental Association." Just imagine, nothing we can do. We gave them the authority and there is nothing we can do. You can hardly believe your ears, Sir. The same thing is going to happen to this group if we do not keep an eye on them. They will get out of control, get out of hand and the next thing you will have another little clique. This is a peculiar situation. mean my hon. friend said, "We are going to support the bill". Probably nobody will vote against it. \4e would prefer not to see the legislation brought into the House. We would prefer not to. AN HON.

MEMBER: Vote against it. MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Speaker, we are not going to vote against it. Mr. Speaker, we have pointed out the pitfalls and the shortcomings and the dangers and the weaknesses in this piece of legislation and we hope, Sir, that the minister - 1992

April 5, 1979 Tape 779 IB-2 MR. DOODY: Do exactly as you did when the poor little girls were on strike down at the hospital, stand outside the door and vote. MR. NEARY: What was that remark again? MR. DOODY: When there was a strike on down at the General Hospital, try to remember who voted for and against sending them back to work. MR. MORGAN: The han. gentleman was out by the door and would not come in to vote. r~R. F. ROWE: Is he questioning the motives of an han. member? MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I think I will just let that one slide.

You know obviously, Sir, no matter what you sav from this side of the House it is just turned into a big joke, a big laugh. You know it falls on deaf ears, Sir. It is really some joke now the way that the lawyers treat people of this Province and that is a big joke and the way that the Newfoundland Dental Association treat the people of this Province. That is a great joke, is i~ not? A big laugh. Fleece them, take them to the cleaners, sock it to them and we as legislators, as elected representatives of the people who gave them the authority do nothing about it. Now that is some joke, is it not?

The joke is on us and maybe the last laugh will be on us. MR. SPEAKER(Ottenheimer}: If the hon. minister speaks now he closes the debate. The hon. Minister of Social Services. MR. HICKEY: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure at this point whether am introducing a bill to set up the Newfoundland and Labrador Law Society or the Newfoundland and Labrador Medical Association. I thought I was on a bill to provide for the registration of social workers but I am not quite sure at this point. My hon. friend from Carbonear (Mr. R.

Moores) started off by saying he was not pleased with my introduction. have to say to him that I am sorry about that but my intent was to simply give the very basics of this legislation assuming that hon. gentlemen opposite who would want to have some comment, and I wanted to provide as much time as possible, would have read the bill. Now he says that he - he has the bill obviously - and he says that he has talked to a social worker. Well, Mr. Speaker, based on his comments 1993

April 5, 1979 Tape 779 IB-3 MR. HICKEY: the only conclusion I can d.raw is either that social worker,which is understandable~ if that person does not know very much about it, he may not have seen the bil1 1 but mY hon. friend from Carbonear (Mr. R. Moores) apparently has not read it either or if he has it has not sunk in. 1S94

April 5, 1979 Tape 780 SD - 1 HR. T. HICKEY: Your donour, this is net a closed shop, we are not setting up a closed shop. if this piece of legislation was what the bon. gentleman refers tc,cr what the member fer LaPoile (Hr.

S. ~eary) refers to, I certainly would net be standing here introducing it ·'3ecause what they are suggesting is, in fact, that it is a closed shop, it is anct~ter little clique, another little group and once you get a few people with some degrees in it never shall anyone enter unless they have a great academic standing, two or three or four or five degrees and I say that is tctal,absolute nonsense. What a misrepresentation, !1r, Speaker, of the piece of legislation. If bon. gentlemen had even read it,at a glance they would have gathered, very quickly, that that is not the case.

Let me refer to the real nuts and bolts of the legislation to which bon, gentiemen refers and for which they term a closed shop. There is a board to be established by tne minister, recomaendaticns regarding the making of regulations by that beard to a minister, vetted by a minister, he can chop cut what he wants, add what he wants and then take them to his cabinet colleagues and have them approved. No regulations are approved until they goes through that process. Would one say that we are passing over the profession of social work to a small clique.with a situation like that. I suggest not.

What is the composition of the board, ~rr. Speaker? How do we get the Beard? The minister, appoints the board, and the board is made up of the following people and, Your Honour, this is probably the most salient point of all in relation to the criticism coming from the other side. Tnree members of the Newfoundland Association of Social Workers - and I suggest to hon. gentlemen, if they know anything about the field of social work in this Province that about ninety per cent of social workers in this Province work fer the Province, work for the Newfoundland Government, so we nave three of those.

The great fear expressed 1.995

. ..,.. April 5, 1979 Tape 780 SD - 2 HR. T. HICKE1: by both non. gentlemen about the university, whatever they have against the university, I do not know. I am not going to stand here and say that everyone at the university are perfect but if there is a bad apple, Mr. Speaker, in a barrel that does not spoil the whole barrel. All of a sudden now my two hon. friends on the other side want to take on the university again for maybe the thousandth time. The favourite whipping boy, the university, ''That little clique over there," they say. How many members of the ooard, Mr. Speaker, will come from the campus?

Out of the seven members, I said the board was made up of seven, six, five, I will not go on like an hon. friend, who is not in the Housel used to, no, Mr. Speaker, one person from the School of Social Work at Memorial University of Newfoundland, one. How that one person from the campus of Memorial University would create a closed shop is beyond my wildest dreams. Who are the other members of the boardi 'rwo employees of the Government of the Province will they stand for a closed shop, Mr. Speaker? I suggest not. One person from the coDDIIunity at large.

Are we suggesting that that person would vote for or support the prospects of a closed shop? Hardly. So you see 1 Your Honour,you have three from the Association of Social Workers, two employees of the government and one from the community.

That is six out of seven, Assuming a couple of the social workers were interested in going one particular way there is still a majority to out vote them, so Your Honour, there is no four.dation at all to the comments made by the hon. gentleman opposite, none whatsoever, In fact, what it points up, Your Honour, is that they, indeed, did not even bother studying this piece of legislation of which they are so afraid and that makes one wonder. 1.996

April 5, 1979 Tape 780 so - 3 $. T. HICKEY: The minister appo.ints the m.embersh:tp of t~ board. The mi_nister appoints the chairman ., th.e vice-chaiPDan, the registrar. . The illinister approves the reguJ.atiD1111. Your Honour, I have to take exception to one remark made by my hon. friend from Carbouear (Mr. R. Moores) 1~97

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 781 GH -1 MR. HICKEY: friend from Carbonear (Mr. R. Moores) - he says, "The minister will do as he is told by the civil servants". I do not know whamhe is .referring to but he is certainly not referring to me. I do not do what I am told by anybody. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must now inform hon. members of any matters to be debated as of 5:30. I have notice of one such matter - notice submitted by the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) arising from a question asked the hon. the Premier, the subject matter - the chairman of the Action Group. Hon. minister. MR. HICKEY: Mr.

Speaker, there is every provision that could possibly be put · into a piece of legislation to guard against the very thing that the two members from the other side have referred to. Recommendations obviously will be made to the minister, whoever that minister is, by the civil servants, by the social workers, but it does not go without saying - it should go without saying that that minister,whoever he is,is not bound by that. He may accept them. He may not. He may change them. He may not, depending on what they are like. Mr. Speaker, the member for Lapoile (Mr.

Neary) referred to the lawyers and the doctors and the closed shop and he made reference to the people withfifteen and twenty years, and so did the member for Carbonear (Mr. R. Moores), as if to give the impression, Your Honour, that as of the time this legislation is proclaimed only those people who have degrees are social workers, indeed are able to practice in this Province. 1998

April 5, 1979 Tape No. 781 GH -2 MR. HICKEY: That is an absolute misrepresen- tation of the facts once more. If they read the legislation, Your Honour, they would find out that the board will set examinations. Those examinations are open for anyone to take.

I pointed out in introducing the bill that all of the people in the employ of the government, the very people that those two gentlemen are talking about, will not be barred from employment as social workers - will not be barred from practising as social workers - will continue to practice social work - can and will take the examination and those people, I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, anyone who has ten, fifteen years in social work in this Province will have no trouble at all in passing that examination based on their wealth of knowledge and experience.

"Those who do not pass that examination or who feel they are not qualified to take it, this will be an encouragement to them to upgrade themselves through the various courses and opportunities that are available by this department, that have been available by this department. Most of our people working in the social work field today who are not holders of degrees have upgraded tha~selves in terms of various courses at Memorial University - bursary courses - diploma courses spread over two years - taken leave of abSence and gone to other universities. Mr.

Speaker, in a nutshell everything that has been said from the other side about this legislation today is much ado about nothing. It is a complete and total misrepresentation of the facts. I am surprised indeed to find two people, one who says that he 1999

April 5, 197 9 Tape No. 781 GH -3 MR. HICKEY: has worked as a social worker - seems to relate to social workers. He is against it. He says he is going to. vote f.or it but you would never say that he wa.s going to support it by what he said~ and then you find, last but not least, the member for Lapoile (Mr. Neary) who is a former minister of Social. Services who should know more about social workers in this Province than anyone else except those who served in that department such as myself, my colleague from Trinity North (Mr.

Brett) and a few others on this side, who worked daily shoulder to shoulder with those people. The thing I want to point out to my friend from Lapo:i.le - MR. c. POWER: 'There's none so blind as those who will not see.' MR. HICKEY': Yes. The thing I want to point out, Mr. Speaker, which is very z:::oo

Apri 1 5, 1979 Tape 782 IB-1 MR.

HICKEY: important which I have not covered but which is important to refer to is that one of the positive signs of this legislation aside from bringing those people together, aside from upgrading and improving the quality of the workers who today are not up to scratch, aside from guaranteeing the families of this Province who require services from a social worker that they will now be able to rest in the knowledge after a few years that when they call on the services of a social worker they will have someone who is absolutely and totallyqualified to do the job, Aside from that, Your Honour, another very positive part of this piece of social reform l,egislation is this,that banded together as an association in this Province stretching from one end to the other there will no longer be the opportunity for a Minister of Social Services or indeed any other politician to manipulate, to threaten or in any way interfer with the day to day workings of a social worker in carrying out his or her duties.

Mr. Speaker, that is very important. That . is not a closed shop I say, indeed not. That guarantees some freedom to those people to carry out their duties and to do their job as indeed it should be done. When you have that you do not run into the situations that we ran into in 1972 with the disgraceful performance of some workers on Bell Island which indeed for various reasons did things that they themselves did not believe in but because they felt they had no protection. They are given protection, Mr. Speaker, in this legislation.

In a very subtle way they are given protection because there is protection in numbers. There is protection in associations. There is protection when a group of people such as the social workers and welfare officers or whatever we want to refer to them as can ban together in an association in this Province and stand as one if any such effort is put forward again to colour their thinking, to change their minds, to manipulate them, to control them to such a degree that indeed they go out and actually break the law.

We have seen the end of that, Your Honour, because with a viable, strong association of social workers that will never be able to happen again I say. 2001.

April 5, 1979 Tape 782 IB-2 MR . HICKEY: And I say that aside from all the other parts of this bill, all the other good things about it' there is a hidden benefit which is not seen on the surface but certainly is a most important facet of it. As one, Mr. Speaker, who had the honour to be Minister of Social Services in 1972 when this same issue was raised, when a request was made by the social workers and denied - that request was denied then, Mr. Speaker, because we fe.lt the group was too small.

A sufficient number of our people who were working in the field had not brought themselves up to a level whereby they could indeed become part of this organization but that has since changed with the bursary opportunities, with the diploma courses that have been made avail ab 1 e at Memoria 1 University and with a 11 the other correspondence courses of various types that have been made available.

Our workers have taken advantage and today the greater majority of our people in the ~ield are qualified, I would even go so far as to say to the degree where they would indeed pass the examination which will be required by this legislation. A real positive step forward, a good piece of legislation and one, Mr. Speaker, which will be welcomed by all in the Social Welfare field in this Province. And I say that I am indeed proud and happy as are my colleagues for bringing in this kind of reform. I move second reading. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

On motion, a bill , "An Act To Pro vi de For The Registration Of Qualified Social Workers," read a second time, ordered referred to a Committee of the Whole House on tomorrow. (Bill No. 6) Motion, second reading of a bi 11, "An Act To Amend The Crown Guarantee And Loan Act, 1973." MR. SPEAKER(Mr. Cross): The han. minister. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, as the title indicates this is an amendment to the 1973 act 2002

April 5, 1979 Tape 783 EC - 1 MR. J. COLLINS: and it is a short amendment, but it does embody an important point.

Section two of the Act as it presently reads, states,"As the explanatory notes point out, whenever in any Act" - the language here is perhaps a little obscure and archaic so I will summarize; I do not believe I will be leading hon. members astray in doing so - the Act says, at the present time whenever in any Act any minister of the Crown other than the Minister of Finance is authorized on behalf of the Crown in right of ~ewfoundland or on behalf of the government or in a similar capacity - wherever such a minister is authorized to guarantee repayment of a bond or debenture or to make a loan or to act in similar manner, that authority is to be exercised by the Minister of Finance.

And reference to any other minister in the Act is deemed to actually be in reference to the Minister of Finance. In other words, these guarantees are carried out in the name of the Province under the authority given to the Minister of Finance. Now, in the amendment that

section is not changed, but the amendment extends that line of thought to guarantees for repayment of bonds and loans that are made on behalf or through the agency of boards, commissions and other such bodies. In other words, loans designed for such agencies, commissions and bodies, the guarantee for these has to be authorized, given under the authority vested in the Minister of Finance rather than being guaranteed by those bodies and those commissions themselves. The guarantee, therefore, rests clearly in the hands of a member of this House, that is, in the person of the Minister of Finance.

And I thinK that hon. members will agree that this is a measure of desirable control. I do not think there is anything further, Mr. Speaker, that needs to be said about this amendment, and I so move. 2003

April 5, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: (Mr. Cross) Leader. Tape 783 EC - 2 The hon. the Opposition House MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is not a very big bill, it is only a couple of pages, Sir, but I am not quite sure if I understand the bon. gentleman. I have read the bill and I listened to the hon. gentleman's explanation, and I am not quite sure, Sir - I do not know about other members if we understand what it is the bon. gentleman is trying to do. We know that the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. J.

Collins) is trying to get control of something or other; he is trying to get something exclusively under the control of the Minister of Finance, but I am not quite sure what it is. Loan and guarantee, does that mean loans that are made, ~or instance, by the Rural Development Authority? AN HON. MEMBER: To all of them. MR. NEARY: Well, the Minister of Rural Development now has the authority to make these loans exclusively, he does not - well, yes, the hon. gentleman, the Minister of Rural Development has the authority - DR. COLLINS: repayment of loans. MR. NEARY: Newfoundland Government - DR. COLLI?iS: MR.

N!_ARY: The reason is to guarantee the Repayment of loans by the Yes. - or repayment of loans of people who borrow from the Newfoundland Government? Which is it? MR. HICKHAN: MR. NEARY: As I understand it, may I? Well, if I do nat give up my right, Sir, as, you know, Second Reading - }lR. HICKMAN: Oh, no. MR. NEARY : - the hon. gentleman can answer a question if he likes . 2004

April 5, 1979 Tape 783 EC - 3 MR .. R.ICKMAN: I realize that if my colleague rises 'l:le would have to close the debate. My recollection w-hen this bill was being drafted was that - take, .for instance, the Fisheries Loan Bc>&rd. Right now they can guarautee a loa.n, a_nd it was felt that ordi!lary t~rudetice would indicate or dictate that any guarantee by the Crow:n or by a Crown agency should be IIUlde by the Minister of Finance, otherwise it would be diff~cult for him to control all the contingent liabilities of the Crown. MR. NEA.RY: Mr.- Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman, Sir, for at least 2005

April 5, 1979 Tape 784 IB-1 MR. NEARY: giving us an example of the kind of authority that the Minister of Finance is trying to get under his wing that now rests exclusively with the Fishery Loan Board for instance. Well what about the Newfoundland Development Loan Corporation, they are set up under the authority of this House. They make loans and give grants to all kinds of con artists, all kinds of people in this Province who come along with wierd schemes and ideas. They give out loans and grants and they answer to nobody. We cannot even get a list in this House. Do they answer to the Minister of Finance?

Granted, Mr. Speaker, the money that they shovel out down there, that they throw out, 75 per cent of it comes from the taxpayers of Canada, 25 per cent of it comes from the taxpayers of Newfoundland, seventy-five, twenty- five. The authority comes from this legislature. But who do they answer to? The Minister of Industrial Development or the Minister of