Volume XLI Friday Province of Newfoundland FORTY -FIRSTGENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT (Hansard) Speaker: Honourable Thomas Lush [Preliminary Transcript] Number 45 1 Decembe r 198 9

The House met at 9:00 a.m . MR. SPEAKER (Lush): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR . SPEAKER: ·:fhe--h 0 n~--·th e P r• E! 1TI i e r . PREMIER WELLS: Thank you-:---Mr . Speaker . Mr. Speaker, I J~ise at l:his t.-.il'ne to advise the House of recent decisions taken by Abitibi-Price Inc. concerning the Grand Falls Mill. Government JAJas advised by Company officia1s on Wednesday of the Company's decision to scale down and then re - structure the capacity of the Grand Falls Pulp and Pape•r Mill.

I understand that the Company Executive is meeting l~ight at this timE! u..Jith its management employees and with representatives of the Union to advis•:> them of l:his decision . They will, I understand, be calling a pt~ess conference to rnake a public statement later today. Abttibi ·-Price Inc. has dc~'cided to close down its No. 6 paper machine which was buiJ.t in 1926, and aJ.so to eliminate l:he sulphite pu1ping plant. The remaining two machines, No. 3 IAJhich tAJas bu'il t 'in 1967 and No. '7 whtch u..Jas built in 1.926, tAJ:i.11 be kE!pl: operating.

The net J~esu1t of the decisions bEdn~J announced by the Co111pany today will be a reduction in capacity by about 50,000 tons. Mr. SpeakE:~ I", the Company has stated a number of reasons for Lhis action. The most impot~tant is the lower quality of paper produced by the two older rnach:im's, par·ticula!~Jy No. 6. Ll Dectc'tnber 1, 1989 Vol XLI Market adjustments were required because of current over - capacity, paper pr·oduction nE!eded t:o bE• balanced with Lhe thermo-mechanical pu1ping capacity, and mill effici("!ncy had to be improved. Other implications will include a rE!duced demand - Mr·.

SpE:~aker, I have• be!en in thts House notAl for a couplE! of yt:~al"S and there is one hon. ME!ITJbeJ" who keeps ya ·l:t.ering on, and not just me, but while every other hon. Member 'is speaking. IF he is going to pE!I"Sist in this, tAle JAri.ll never get <:tny staternE!nl~.s road propet"ly. So I tAJOulcl as I< Lhe hon. M.:~mber 'iF he u..JouJ.d kindly 1neFrain a n d a Ll. ow s o rn E:~ b o cl y E:' J. s e t o ITI a k e a stateJnE•nt tAJithout his cons'l:<:'tnL intE!l"J"uption. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) call a press conference if he cannot stand a bit of bantering, Mr. Speaker.

PREMIER WELLS : I arn not bantering. The Member never shuts-up' He kOE!pS b::t lk in<] no ITl<O\U:E!r' who else -.is spE:·aldn~J, so let: us just: have a 1il:l:1E! J"especl fot" the r·es t of the House. He is not the only Member 'in the House. SOME HON. MEMBFRS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER : Or·cler, please! It :is a l:.i.rn.:~ honot"ed l:J"acliL ·i. on :in Pat"1iarnent that tAJhen a Mr::!ntbei" <::tsks fOI" silence, l:.hal COUI"lt:~sy bE• extended to that Merni:JPI". The hon. thE! Pr·r::•rntr:'!l". PI~EMIEf~ WELLS : rnt 1.1 efFiciency, Mr . had to be "improved . No. 45 Speake!", Othet" 1n

implications will include a reduced demand on the timber resource, and a reduction on pollution because of the closing down of the sulphite mill. The company projects that this decision will result in the layoff of 250 permanent employees representing approximately 30 per cent of the total permanent t.uork force in the Mill. The company has advised me, however, that. it plans to institute a program of labour adjustment which will include an early retirement package .

The changes in mill operations will result in corresponding reduction in IJ..Jood requitnements, but it is understood that there will not be any significant impact on the existing IAJoods t.uorketns . In adv isi ng Government of its decision, the company has assured us of its continued cornrnitmr:~nt to a successful pulp and paper operation in Grand Falls. It is the company's view that the changes being made at this time will result in a more efficient and cornpetitive enterprise.

As a further demonstration of this commitment, the company has advised that it is ·act ively considering the development of a new hydro power project to increase the generating capacity at Grand Fa~Lls. This project JAJould fuJnther imp1nove the::: viability of Abitibi-Price's operations in this Province. NotAl, Mr. Speaker, I me•nt.ion it but I hasten to add here, that a definitive decision has not been made on that, but t.ht:' company advises me that the information they have been gathering lately indicates a high degree of probabil'i.ty that thE·Y IJ..Ji11 moue in l~his direction.

So, I am happy l~o L2 D1:!cernbE!r 1, 1989 UoJ XLI see this, and this will, I am told, result in some 500 or 550 man years or person years of employment. So, it will have a significant offsetting - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)? PREMIER WELLS : No, a total of that ovr:'r' about a three year period. It would be close to 200 a yeat~ Fol" about a three year period, so it would help in a transition period at J.east. The company has advised that l.hr:· main consideration in rnaldng l:.heir decision at this t:i.rne is l.:he IAJ01"1d market outlook For newsprint.

NE!Wsprint markets are proj ectecl to be on the:;~ decl.ine For t-:\·11:! n1~x L '~ -- 5 years creating significan~ excess capacity in the industry. This over-capacity will mean downtime for Abit.J.bi .. ·· Pl'·:ic(~ Mil.ls in Canada in the corning year·. We are advised by the company that the action they arE! talci ng today to close the No.6 machine will mean thE•re will be no dOJ.unt:i.rne in the Grand Falls mill in 19 90.

A1so, il.: is theil" u:l .C:'!IAJ r:.hal.: Lhe high quality of newsprint be ing produced at Lhe StephenuiJle rn.U] should assure a high level of opet"at:i.on ciUJ"in~~ l~hE! pet "-.i.ocl of tight markets. Mr. Speaker. Gouer·nrr~~:~nl:. is deE• ply concernE!d w·.it.h the impact of Lhts decision on the people and Lhe economy of Centra} NewfoundJand, and the whole Province For that matter. While Government understands some of Lhe reasons for this business deciston by Uw Company. W(~ a1"e not Fu l1y satisfied with the explanation prouidE!cl so far.

Dl:!sp ·i te LhE! company's assurance of :improving Lhe remaining two paper machines No. 45 R2

... and enhancing the viability of the mi11, WE! wi.11 investigate the entire issue of the reduction in capacity and the company 1 s future plans. Government is very concerned about thE! impact of the company 1s decision on the employment situation and the overall economy of Central Newfoundland and indeed the Province as a whole, and has, therefore, decided to ap~oint a special committee of Cabinet consisting of the following Ministers to review and monitor alJ. aspects of the situation: The han. Graham R. Flight, Minister of Forestry and Agriculture, will act as Chairman, the han.

Charles Furey, Minister of Development, will be a member of the Committee, and the han. Patricia Cowan, Minister of Employment and Labour Re1ations, wil.l also be a rm:!rnber of the Committee.

These Mintsters wiJ.l be charged with the responsibility to : review Fully the basis for the company 1s decision to permanently close No. 6 paper machine; to examine the company 1 s long term plans for the Grand Falls mill with a view to ensuring its continued viability; and to monitor the labour adjustment aspects of the restructutning plan, as u.Jell. as to t..uork t..uith local levels of Government and other concerned groups to reduce the impact of this decision on the economy of Central NetAJfoundland. rhis special cormnittee of Cabinet wiJ.l repor·t to Full CabinE!t on a regular basis.

Government is assign:i.ng hi~Jhes ·t priority to 't:his task and hopes that this timely action wil.l assist in ensuring the FuLur1:=! viabi1ity of" thE! mill and the stabi1ity of income and employment in the Grand Falls/Windsor area . L3 Decc:!rnbeln l., 1989 Vol Xl...l In closing, Mr. Speaker, Government assures the people in the many communities in Central Newfoundland who w:ilJ. bE! affE!CtE!d by the changes to the Gt"and Falls mill that we tAJi11 spare no E!ffotnt to alleviate the impact of today 1s decision. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. rhe Opposition HOUSE! Leader. MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, this is a sad day indeed for the people of Grand Falls and the people oF Central Newfoundland; it is a great Christmas present, I suppose, one could say . I am a bit disappointed in knowing that the Premier and the Minister or Forestry were aware of this situation sincC::' Wednesday and did not have the courtesy to advise the elected MernbE!r oF l:.he pE•op1r::! of that area about this ~atter . I find that a b:it: cliscourtE!OUs. I think that is the lE!ast thy could have done.

With res pE!C t to the statement itself, let rne just: go thr·ough it a bi .t and perhaps comment on some aspects. ·of what: the Premier has sa:i.cl. Fit"st of aJ.J, he ITtent.:i .ons the lot..uer quaJ.ity oF paper on hAlO old machines, pcH "licu1arly No. 6 papet" tnachine. fhE!lnE' are somE· questions and there is sotTW dE!baLr:o on Lhat i s s u e , abo u t 1: he qua 1 i l: y o f t h a t par·U .cular papE!In.

I knot.~J t.hd.t: they have in recent years i_ns ·taJ.lE•d neu.J l:i.ntinq E!quJptnr:·nt on \:hal: machine, t..uh:ich lAJas suppo ~:;e cl l:o hdvE• ITtaciE! thE! papE!r rnuch rnot"('! competitive, and, 'Lndei"d, litany se1y, incJudinq thl" union tnepresentatives, l:h~J.l:_ :in Fac L that: papE:'r is competitive. tl(:!cauSE! i.t: t..uas not competit. :ivc::' in the past, they had a prob1ern with the reputation oF the paper, No. LJ 5 1\3

therefore, some argue that the problem is with their marketing strategy, and that perhaps what thE!Y should bE! doing is improuing their own marketing strategy. I am not totally satisfied with that in my own mind at this stage. Secondly, the Premier indicates in his statement that there will be a reduced demand on the tirnber resource, and later on in the statement he says it is understood there will not be any significant impact on the existing woods wo1nke1ns. Now, I suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that that is absolute nonsense.

If there is going to be a reduced demand on the timber resou1nce, you can bE! ce1ntain that that will mean layoffs in the woods. The loggers arE! going to be affectE!d by this decision, and anyl:;lody who does not belieue that just has blinkers on. The company projects the layoff of 250 permanent employees, 30 per cent of the total work force. It is now at 840, as I understand it. This will now leaue it at 590 .

But, I should add, because nowhere in the statement does it lnef1ect this fact, that the 250 direct permanent job losses are not rE !1.ated solely to the closing of No. 6 paper machine; because lAJhat thE! company has done in addition to that is it has restructured its entire 1.1.10rk force throughout the mill, and that. is what is transpiring in adcli U.on to the closure of t:he No. 6 machine.

And, of coursE!, with thE! spinoffs, I suppose, using even the most conservative estimates that economists use, even if you use the one to one basis, you are talking about . 1)00 jobs l:hat are probably going to bE! affE!Cted in that entire Central Newfoundland arc;!a, using thE! most consE•rvative• estimate that economists use. L4 - DE!Cember 1, 1989 Vol XLI The development of the hydro power project is something I am quite familiar with myself.

I haue been involued with the nego U.atj .ons and discussions and so on with the company, I IA1ould say, at }E!ast For the last three years those discussions haue been ongoing. They have not yet 1noached a dE!cision. ThE!Y have som E:' questions tAlith resp1?.Cl: l:o financing that packagE!, bE!CiHlSE· I belieue it is about a $20 mi1.1.".ion pro j e c t , o r at 1 e as t , it lA.Ja s t h n! e years ago. Maybe it is more now. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . MR. SIMMS : I am sorry . Yes, $170 million. I was thinking of something else - a $160 million to a $170 tni1J .-"i.on project . So it is a bo:ig pr'oject .

That, of course, lAJill creal: e jobs only for thE~ shol~t-· ·telnm, and so it. would be helpful at that period of time . But the poi.nt is they have been three years discussing it, thinking about H., and I tAJouJd not hold my breath on thE! thing. Perhaps t.hE' Governrn E!n ·~ and th e Premier could ".intervene, ac l:. and lAJOlnk direct1y with the colnpdny t:o see if there ·i~ ; a lAJay t.ha L Lh 1:! Government can help put togeth er some ldnd oF a package L.hal: . lAJoulcl E!nsure that this project c:~e t s underway . NOlAJ, Mr. SpeakE:'r. he talks about the rna r k e t .

Yes , in dee cl • thE! market is very competit ive. I have made the point abou t rnarket".ing strategy being very i.rnportant and tha t mayb e th e Company should be asked to give the Premier a briefing on what marketing s Lr'al:E:'9Y they have usPd. So I want to ask i f with the No . 45 Lo ask, and I lAJould haVE! l:hr:~ Pr E!rniol n, lAJhE!n hE• rnet Co tnp any or=- F:i cia ls o n R4

Wednesday, Mr. Vatche1n I guess it IAJa s he met with, aJ. though I arn not quite sure who he spoke wit:h, or maybe H:. IAJas Min. Koken, whomeVE!In it t.uas, I hope he scrutinized the Company's decision thoroughly and that he is absolutely satisfied that this is the onJ.y decision the Company could have made. PREMIER WELLS: (Inaudible) are not . MR. SIMMS: Okay. Well, he says thE!Y are not. I am pleased to hear that, and hopefully we wilJ. hear further reports back from him.

Interesting the Premier wouJ.d interrupt after chastising a colleague ove1n on th'.is side, but I have asked the question, which I am entitled to do. NoLI.J, Min. Speaker, w:l.th respect to the response, to this point in time the establishment of a special committee, I have to tell you in all sincerity that I would feel a lot more comfortable if that comrni ttee was not headed up by the Ministe1n of Forestry, quite frankJ.y. I certainly would Feel more comfortable if the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations was not sitting on it. I do not have too much confidence in either one of them, quite frankly.

It says that the Cabinet committee wiJ.l monitor the labour adjustment aspects of the restructuring plan, presumably 1nespond some way if there is a t.uay to do it. We11, I hope their response in this regard LI.Ji.11 be much rno1ne E!FFc::,ctive than thE!:ir responSE! tAd.th thE! Fishe1nies Res~onse Program that we talked about for weeks, and much more effective than the Minister oF EmpJ.oyment's response to people, suggesting that if you run into situations like this, job loses 1._5 DE!Cr:~mber 1, 1989 Vol XLI and sc::1rious job loses, on an immediate basis that they simply go on LI.Jelfalne.

I t.uould like l~o thJnk that l:he rt1sponsE! wou1d be more effective than that. This, Mr. Speaker, represents another bJ.ow to the economy of the Province, notwithstanding the vE•ry devastating effect it wJJ.l have on the people in Central Newfoundland. We have seen in recent months 500 jobs gone in Marysto1.un, 300 gone from the Newfound1and Dockyard, 300 jobs gone flnorn Na tSea, lAJ~~ a1n1~ estimating 6,000 in the fishery, 250 jobs gone in Long Harbouln, and now 250 to f:)OO, I suspE•ct, jobs lost in Grand Falls. This statr::~ment today, Mr.

SpE:'akE!r, represents a tragedy For the ·economy of our Plnovince, il:. 'is dc:~vastating nE!l.\JS for thE! peop1e of Grand Falls and central Newfoundland; it is a t:E!I'Tib1e Christmas present, and I lAJi.l1 hav1:! more questions to ask o~ this matter in the days and t.ueE!ks ahead, Mr. Speaker. Oral Questions MR. SIMMS : Mr . Speakr:'r . MR . SPEAKER : 1 he han . the Oppos :i. t.ion Housu Leader. MR. SIMMS : Min. Sp~'aker', I hioiVe a ques l:ton r" o1" l:he Minis l:er of Fo1nes l~1ny.

In LhE! pas t I havE• asked the M:irdst.e1n or· Forestry questions in this House l"elatin~J to the Joss of jobs at Wooddale Nursery, sixty jobs a t that tirn~~. and his anstAJeln, and tt. is l"ecorded in Hansdl"d, 'I have no reason to be concerned.' No. tJ.5 I~ I~

Our Forestry critic, the Member for Humber Valley (Mr. Woodford). has asked the Minister of Forestry about silviculture agreements. His answer. 1 I have no reason to be concerned. 1 The Member for Humber East, on November 9 in Hansard. asked the Minister about wood supply problems.

Quote from the Minister, 1 I do not have any concerns. 1 I have publi.cJ.y asked the Minister in weeks gone by, three or four weeks ago at least, that he go to Toronto to meet with the Chief Executive Officer of Abitibi-Price to find out what is going on, to come back and to 1neport to the people and respond to their concerns about the future of their mill . He said to rne and he said publicly, 1 I do not need to go to Toronto to find out anything about what is going on in the forest industry. 1 NoLAJ we see the results of that. He also implied to me, Mr . Speaker. 1 the hon.

Member need not worry about Grand Falls. 1 NoLAJ I want to ask the Minister a simple question. Does he have any reason to be concerned today about Grand Falls, or should I not tJJotnry about that. either? MR. SPEAKER : ThE! hon. the Minister of ForE:~s l:ry . MR . FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the han. Member For his question. Yes. Mr'. Speaker.

I have reason today t.o be conCE!Inned a.bou t Grand Falls. and I also have reason t.o be concerned about Windsor, because thts is going to impact just as much on the l:ot.uns of Windsor, and Badger, and Millertown possibly, as it will on L6 DecE•rnbE!r 1, 1989 Vol XLI Grand Falls. It may extent, but it will very greatly and I reason to be concerned . not t.o the affE!C t l:.hern haVE! grN:lt I have had reason to be concernc~d the past six months, Mr. SpE!akE!r, when that hon. MernbE!In knows Gr·and Fails/Windsor was rampant with rumours that Abitibi-Price was making a decision. They had various options.

W<~! wetnE! kept infor·rned. We tJJere nottFied, as the Premier indicated in the statement, on Wednesday c~xactly what thE! si tuaU.on Wr.lS. Then• has been a concern that maybe the announcement made yesterday by Abitibi would have been a four-month shutdown. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) six tnonl:hs ago? MR. FLIGHT: Thetne are greate1n concE:!tnns 'in Grand falls than that, as l:he Member knows. Yes, Mr .. Speaker, l:o the MembE!r. I haul':' gr·avE! concerns, and I stiJJ have a gr·aVE! concern.

We t.ui11 do tJJhaleVE!In tJJe can do as a GoVE!rnrnent l:o ](!Ssen l:he impact: of Ul:is C.UHlouncl':'llll:•nl: today in Grand FaJ. ]s/Windsor and all of central Newfoundland. MR. RIDEOUT: By saying that you lAJE!rt' no l: concerned about it. MR. FLICHT: I never said that . MR. RIDEOUT: No! We just quotE•cl it to you . MR. SPEAKER: The hon . l:he Oppos:i.l:ion House::• Leacle1n. MR. SIMMS: Mr . Speaker, I am nOtAl s ometJJha t No. 45 R6

m surpris1:?.d to hear the Min'.ister admit in the House that he has known what was going on therE! for thE! J.ast six months, when we have asked him questions public1y in the people's HoOse and he never once indicated that he knew what was going on. In fact, he kept sloughing it off and suggesting that there was no reason to be concerned. Mr.

Speaker, over the last twenty-four hours I have spoken to several people, several employees from the central Newfoundland area, I have spoken to the Mayor of the town, I have spoken to the Vice-President of Abitibi-Price in Toronto, the Vice-President for Eastern Canada, and I have spoken to the senior union representative, the -international representative, and they are a11 shocked I can assure you, and they have a lot of questions - a- lot of questions- and a lot of anxieties.

I want to ask two or three I can do it in questions. whatever format you wish, Mr. but I have a numbe1~ of I arn going to ask ti."JO if I can at this s t:age behalf, and I want the of Forestry to respond to Speaker, questions. or three, on their Minister thE!rrl. Is the Minister absolutely satisfied that nothing can be done to improve the situation with respect to that No. 6 paper machine? Did he ask the company to look at the feasibi1ity study they presumably undertook when t:hey made their decision? What about their p1an to put in a brand· ,·new paper' machine? Wh,:>r'e does that stand at the moment?

And, finally, at l:his stage at least, in view of the fact that Grand Fails is bearing the brunt of this restructuring throughout L'l December 1, 1.9B9 Vol XU the whole Abitibi system - this is taking p1ace throughout the IAJholE! Abitibi system, the brunt of it is being takE!n in Grand FaJ.J s ····· l1as this Minister, IAJho only a few weeks ago told us not t:o worry about anything, insisted that the company guarantee that thE·re will be no annual downtime in the rni11 in future years, not just in 1990? Has he demanded a guarantee in that respect, 01~ shou1d I not be concerned about those things, either? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, in the first instanCE! I lAJan t to take !:his opportunity to teLl. the hon. Member' in a] 1 sincerity that I neVE!r at any l:.irne said, and I doubt that he can produce a docum,'?!nt IAJhich says so, that I have no concern about the various issues he has stated. I am amazed, Mr. Speaker, and I accept his concern this morning, and I accept that he is conc€~1~nE!d about the impacl: this is going to haVE! on Gr'and FaLls, but l arn a lit:tle surprised about t:he tenor of his questions, MJ·'. Speakr:!r'.

I arn not prepcu~ed to pl.ay politics with th"i.s "issue this ITIOI~nJnq. I detect in the tenor of the ME:~mber' s questions that hE! is prepared to milk this if he f,::!E<ls that it is in his better pol.iticaJ interes l:s. Mr. Sp!O:'aker, 1el: rne deal lAril:.h thE• three questions. WJ .11 Abitibi-Price install a new machinE:~? I have to pi"esurnE! that ·: A b i t i b i ·-P r' i c e ·- l: h e y are a rJ I" t~ a t corpoJ~atE! cittzen, Mi". Speake!", they are a good corpor'dt:e ci. ·U :zen and they are concerned about maintaining their presence and their business in centraJ. No. 1~5 R7

Newfoundland . They have spent, I would say, a lot of hours this last year determining what they would do with regard to production in their mi1.J. in Grand FaLls, and their decision at this point in time. As the Premier indicated, we tAJill, over the next week or two, ask all the questions and determine whether or not there was an alternative . MR. RIDEOUT: (Inaudible) ask the questions. MR. FLIGHT: Bu·t they have al1neady been as ked.

Abitibi have made a cotnpolnate decision, the same kind of corporate decision that was made on the Linerboard Mi1l, which probably had a greater . effect on the economy of Newfoundland than this particular acU.on wJ.ll, when he sat and supported it . MR. RIDEOUT: (Inaudible) (inaudible)? MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! criticizing I would ask the han. Ministe1n to take hts place. The Chair is having great difficulty trying to determine there were a number of questions as ked, and that, aga:i.n, is why thE~ Chair discourages asking more than one question .

The Chair is trying to determine when the Mtnister has answered the questions, and when another Minister interferes, asking another question, it Further complicates l:he situal: .ion E~ntirely. So if hon. Mernbl':'rs tAJan t the Chair to call when the questions are L8 DE~CE:~rnbr:!r 1, 1989 Vol XLI answered would be, I am asking hon. Members to co ·-operate and it is to ht':~lp thE! Chair deci.dC::' whE!n the anst..uers have been giv,~n, and not throw extra ones . MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

With regard to getting a guarantee that there will be no more downtime, the Premier in his statement indicated that Abitibi advises us that as a result of this action there lAli.11 b~::~ no downtimE!, to thE! extE~nt, I gtH'SS, that they can say at this point in time, to the extent that anybody can say anything, thal: l:his act.ton results in no downtime. Apparently, had this action not been taken Gr·and Falls liJould have been lookin ·g at approxi.mateJ.y fou1n monl:hs downl:ime t.his yE~ar, and nobody knows how much for 1991 . With regard to the Member's question about a new machine, no, M r .

S p ~::~a k e r , at. t hi s poi n t :i. n U .JTI e Abitibi have not :indica'l:E~d to us that they are about to r·epJ.ace and I might say to the Member, also, that. from an E!ITiployrnent point of v:if'!lAJ, from the nurnbe1n oF jobs affected, i.f Abit'ibi tAJE!l"E~ to install a netAJ rnachin1?. that tJJould replace 6 and 7, the E•ffect on t.he level of employment tJJould be 1norE ~ drastic than this one. The technology in that machine lAlould mean more job losses. ThE~ Mernb er shakE!S hi s ht:•ad, but the Member does not want to accept thE:! facts as they aln(;!, Ancl, Ml".

Spe'aker, the company l:E!lls us, and we accE:!pt LhE~i,r wor·d, that . l:.hE:.J"E~ u..d .ll be no dotAJn t.ii'nl'' :in Cr·and Fal ls , particulatnly as a resul l. oF this. ThE~ hon. t.he fli"E!rni. t::!ln announcE•cl a No . 1~5 I~ 8

committee of Cabinet that will, starting now, look into the situation and determine whether or not there was an alternative. whether or not Abitibi-Price can be encouraged to look at another alternative. But I can say to you now, Mr. Speaker, and I say to the people of Grand Falls and Windsor, tAH:~ do not have vet"Y much manoeuvering room in that area. Abitibi-Price has made a corporate decision, a decision we have to accept, a decision in which we have to use whatever influence we have as a Government to decreaSE! or to alleviate any negative impact that this action has on central Newfoundland. MR.

SPEAKER: Thr:~ han . the Opposition HOUSE! Leadet". MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker, I must say I am finding it vr:~ry difficult: to follow the logic of the MinistE•r, in a number of ways. He say-s we have now closed down No. 6 machine al.: the rnill in Grand Falls, 250 jobs at"E! gone. If you put in a n1=:!W machine. you are going to lose mor'E:~ jobs. I do not quite fol1ow that logic. Perhaps he can elabot"ate at some other occasion. I would not expect him to respond to it. here now. I arn not get.ting into a debate. I simply asked hirn - I asked hitn --· what is their plan t~o.dth respect to the machine?

He said they have not indicated anything, and I wondered if he asked thern about it. NotAJ, Mr. Speaker. this MinistE!r neE!d not try l:o coVE!I" up his own incompetence in deaLing tAd.t:h this situation by somehow questioning my motives, somehow suggesting tha ·t rny motives are political. I can tE!11 him that t.hE:' po1itics oF this are not. very excit.ing Fot" me, L.9 DE!cernbet" 1., 1989 VoJ. XLI I can assure him of that. And I r'esenl:. the suggest:.i.on he rnad1;! to that effect, by the way.

I am as Icing questions, and I sa:i.d j_n rny PI"E:~arnbJ.e I am asking qur:~st-.i.ons on behalf oF the people I have spoken to in the last twenty-four houi"S. Those were th1':!ir questions, I say to the Minister. MR. WALSH : (Inaudible) supplementary. MR. SIMMS: The Member For Mount Sc-.i.o wants me to get to my supplementary. I wiLl get to my suppJ.r:~rnentat"Y when I am ready. If l:hat is not acceptablE•, I lAJi.ll ask a nE•t~o.J question. Ml". Speaker. I lAJant Lo a~; k l.:hE:!

Minis t e r t h t s : Does h "'~ I" e cog n i. z E! and is he aware of Lhe fallouts from spin-offs tArith l"esp,~ct to this dramatic neu..Js. spin- -off's that. will affect medium and srnall sized business, spin-offs that will affect loggers in the woods. despite the statement which indicates oth,:!rtAd.se, conl:r'actor's who have invested a considerable amount of money in equipment, iHld so on? Would hE· acknotAJJ.eclge that:.

Lhis blow is probably equivalent-: to 4-00 to 500 jobs lost-: in that central Newfoundland area, and dOE!S he also real.tze - I knotAJ hE:! mentioned Windsor - Buchans, but-: does he aJ.so realize that these fallouts will occur not only in Windsor - Buchans, not-: on1y in Cr'and Falls, but~. 'in Exploil:s, in Lew-.i.sporte, in Burgee Bay d 1 Espoir, in Baie Verl":e, in Twi] 1 :i. n g ell e . t n G I" e E· n Bay . in Fortune ··- HE:~rtnitage. and E!Ven. Mr. Speaket", as far as Gand<''l~? T~wt~e are people in all those ar'eas.

I lAJant the MintstE!I" to tE<l.J rne :i f I'll:! recognizes that, and does he acknow1edge it? No. 4-5 r-~9

Finally, I know the Premier addressed thE! question in his statement, but I want to know if the Government has insisted, and I ask the Minister if he has insisted on, demanded, an assurance that the 250 employees affected by this particular situation now will be given an acceptable severance and an acceptable early retirement package, acceptable to the union and to the membership? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry . MR. FLIGHT: Mr . Speaker, in answer to l~he hon. Member's first three or four questions the answer is yes, yes, a quaJ.ified yes.

I, as MinistE!r, and this Premier and the ·Government are aware of aJ.J. the various effects and negative spin-offs, and that is the rE!ason why, as a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, the Premier announced a Committee of Cabinet, which-! will chair, to determine the effects and determine what action l:he Government can takE! to soften the blot.u and eliminate l:o the extent we can thE! hard~hips as a rE•sult of these effects. Now, Mr. SpeakE•r, can I assure l:he House of Assembly that Abitibi-Price will negotiate, or that thE! 250 pE•ople laid off tAJiJ.J. have an acceptable package?

It is our information that the company is going, to the extent they can, to negotiate a severance package with these 250 employees. I am sure there are management peopJ.e th,?.re tJ..Iill be no probl,O!m in doing that with, because there are no union agreements in place. But thE! ME•mbE!r wi11 know, having lived in Gr·and Fails, that:. the company's ability to negotiate a severance packagE! For lrl(:'r1 t.uho have not LlO December 1, 1989 VoJ. XLI reached reti1nement agE:~ is totally dependent on the co-operation of the union, and I understand, Mr . Speaker, at this point in time - The hon. the LE•ader of thE!

Opposition 'tuts', well, he knot/JS it is true. The union todc:lY wi11 decide - the membership, itself, depending on the agE! of any givE:~n one of these 250 people '"rill decide. The answer, Mr. Speaker, is yes.

The company have infor-med us l:.hat they are going to negotiate the rnost acceptable separation package they can and we and everyone hopes that the union and rnanag~:'rrli~n t can agt"E!E:~ on a package with rnoi"E! fol" the workers, t:hat 1.uill see 111ost of these people going out with an acceptable separation and pension packagE! and, hop~;;~fuJ.ly, tAlE'! lJ..I-.1. .11 not have that rnany new entrants into the job market as a result of the 250 laid off. MR. SIMMS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker . MR, __ ~AK~~: The hon. the Oppos ·i l:.ion House Leader. MR. SIMMS: Not.u, Mr.

Speal<,:•r, I hop1:.'!, respect to that lasL point, the Minister is prepared to his authority and fol1ow IAii th that use hi~; responsibility, and lay l:hE! hand on the company. suggesting that he lay l:he hand on the company. h~C!dVY I a111 heavy MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! I wan L to r1'-'!ITI"ind hon. ME!111bur·s aga:i n that QUE!S ti .on Period is St.at~;;'menl:.s by Mini st er·s, Ministers are not to re spo nd questions, they are supposed No. 4 5 nol:. that to to rno

get into ·the next question. So I ask tl1e hon. thE! OpposiU.on House Leader to please get into his question. MR. SIMMS : Mr. Speaker, in that respect a new question, which will entitle me to do some

preamble. MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! Hon. Members would know that it is very difficult to decide - hon. Members just cannot decide that it is going to be a new question just to evade the rules of the House, and by a new question an hon . Member is, again, not entitled to long

preamble. Hon. Members cannot play around that way. MR. SIMMS: Mr . Speaker, this hon . Membe1n is not playing around, I say to You in Honour. This is a very serious matter. My colleagues on this side of the House have agreed to let me ask as many questions as I wish. I am entitled, as an E!lectE!d ME!rnber of this House, to ask those questions, and I will do it. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Now, Mr. Speaker, my ques \:ion is to the Minister of Forestry. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Oinder, please! This Chair cannot acci:!pt that.

The Chai1n' s dec::i.sions in Question Period are final and they are going to be final. I ask the hon. the Opposil:ion House Leader to continue with his question . L.J.J. DE!cernbE!r 1, 1989 Vol XLI MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I have a nelAJ qUE!S ti.on for the Minister of Forest1ny. I want to ask thE! Minister of For·es t1ny this, but bE! Fore I do, I want to make some particular

preamble on it. MR. BAKER: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: The hon . the Opposi U.on HousE:' Leader. MR. SIMMS: This ·is ridicu1ous, absolutely ridiculous! MR. TOBIN: We might as well go horne . serving no purpose here. AN HON. MEMBER: You can say that again. AN HON. MEMBER: WE:! arE! You have to be a lawyer or something here, and be like this ... MR. BAKER : Mr. SpeakE!r, I do nol: tak1:• pr·idE! in having to stand and raise a point of order at this t: i111e. · I bE:~l.-.l.evE• tAJhat has happE!necl her'C:! i s t o t a 11 y o u t: s i ck! l: h E:~ b o u n cl s o f what is parliamentary.

I wou ld, on the first hand, ex cuse Lt. in my own rrdnd, because thr:' han. Men1ber · is emotiona11y tied up in this, and I bel.ieve that he has gone far beyond the bounds o·F lAJhaL shou1d happE!n in Parliament. HE~ hc:,ls ~Jor\E! fain beyond the bounds oF t.uhal:. dny Member in this House should say to Lhe Speaker. He knolAJS Fu11 ·lAJC:!ll that during Ques tion Period the rulings oF l:he Speakc>r an:• nol: to bE! questioned, ancl hE• has or-H :•nJ.y, deliberately chal1enged the SpE!aker and g'i.V E:'n dj .r1:!c t::i on to Lh E• Speaker, t:ind I am slotAJing l:his No. 4 1) f\ 1.1.

down l:o give the han. Member time to cool down a little bit. I would agree to ex tend Question Period, if tl1e han. ME!rnber wants to. I am giving him time, Mr. SpE!aker, to think about it, and I would suggest to Your Honour that he has gone too far because of his emotional involvement. And for the sake of parliamentary procedure and for the sake of decorum in the House, the han. Member should reconsider and apologize to the House and to the Speaker for the comments he made about the Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ThE! han . the Opposition House Leader. MR. SIMMS : Mr. SpE!al<er, . to the point of order . Look, Mr.

Speaker, the han. Government House Leader now is trying somehow to tul~n this thing around, that is alJ. he is attempting to do. MR. RIDEOUT : (Inaudible) chaJ.lenged the Chair when you were over here. MR. SIMMS : I have not challenged Your Honour's ruling. Your Honour has not asked me to withdraw anything. He asked me to put a question. I simply rose to put the question . Now, if this continues, Min. Speaker, thE!n I am quite prepar1:!d, rather than to offend Your Honour or offend Mr,1mbers on that side -· I am not interestE!d in doing that . I haVE! no interest in that· whatsoever.

But : tf Members ar·e offE!nded, if Your Honour is offended, rather than put anybody in a prE!carious position, I am quitE! prepar1 :cd to leave thE! CharnbE•r and 1 1.u:i.Jl ask my questions outside. L12 December 1, 1989 Vol XU MR. RIDEOUT: We have seen the Chair challenged, and you fellotvs vote (inaudible) . We have seen that in this House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I ask that the han. Member continue with his question . In view of the seriousness of the situation , I wo u 1 d as k that t h :i s time not be taken oul: of QUE•stion Period. If han.

ME !mbers IAJould like to debatl') it, d1:!bab~ it appropriately at the end of Question Period. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Opposi t.ion House LE!ader. M~ .· SIMM~.: Thank you, Mr. Speak1?.r, For your 1nuling, and aga:in there is no point of order, obviously. Mr. Speaker, I want to get back to the Minister of Fol~estry IAJho, in his last anstAJer to the question, or the question before that 1 as ked, mentioned l:ha t no1.uhei"C~ in Hansard can :it be Found Lhc:,,t. he took such a cavaliN' at.t.il.·.ud1?. towards questions that were a n s we r e d i n l: h :i s rl o u s <) u,ri l: h resp(:'Ct to Fol~es try.

WE:!l], 1 ask him l:o read Hansai"d, NovernbE·I~ 9th edition, where, in fact, :in response to a question Frorn the ME!rnber for HurnbE!In Eas L abou L IAJoocl supply problems, for example, he did say, "I do not haVE! · cH1Y concerns," Mr. Speaker. That :is a d:i1~ect quote. HE! also sa:id, c:u1cl this is what rnake~ me ne1nvous, I say to the f'I~E!rn:i.er, about havinq the Minist1:1r of Fol~estJ"Y involved, he also said in response to rny last c~uestion, "I give the Memi:H:!r a quaJified yes," I arn abso1utr::!ly certain. Al:. least I hopE! ht:) tneant to give me an unqualified yes . No. 4-S Rl2

That is what I would prefer to hear him say. Mr. Speaker, I lAJill ask one more question on thE! issue right now, and that will be the end of it for me, and I lAJant to ask him this: What specific plans, what specific ideas does his Government have aside from the Cabinet Committee establishment? Surely they have discussed it. He told me he has known about it for six months. What specific plans and ideas does the Government have to help easE! the anxieties of the people out in this area? How ar~;: 1 they going to respond to this devastating blow for the town? How are they going to respond to the town?

Are they going to canCE!l more projects like the regional recreation facility, the watE!r treatmE!nt plant and thE! college expansion? Are they going to take $350,000 in taxes from the town of Grand Falls? Is that going to hE!1p thE!m? Is that the kind of plan they have? · Are they going to lay off and eliminate another 60 jobs or so at the Wooddale Nursery, or should I not be concerned about those matters? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Forestry . MR. FLIGHT : I think I can answer al1 of th~;:' various questions with one answer. M1~.

SpeakE!r, we were informed, we were awarr:>. as a GovernmE!nt, and I was aware r.~s a Minister, that there IAJere conCE!rns amongst the work force in Grand Falls about the possibile particularly triggered, I think, by the mal~ket situation, that thE!I~e werE! concerns among thE! employees that thE!re would indeed be a lot of downtime, that Abitibi-Price would take certain actions . We were notified. as the Premier indicated in his L13 De U!mi:H:' 1~ 1, 19 8 9 Vo1 XLI statement, 5:00 Wednesday evening of the company 1 s definite decision. They may lAJE!ll have carne to St.

John 1 s and to1d us tht~y were going to take four months downtime, which would- have a devastaU.ng effect as we•ll. They did not, they decided to take: :~ this particular action. Now, M1~. Speaker, as of yr:1stE!rday, as Chairman of the Cabinet Committee I have put together a committee of the thr-ee Dt~puty Ministers to meet immediately on a priority basis. Abitibi -Price have assured us of their co-operation , and they will appoint high level officials to work with that Committee. WE ! wi.1l determine the extent of the layoffs - in the mi1l lAJt:' knoLu - in the woodlands.

WE! wi1] dE!'lE•l "ITLine if thE!re is an alternativE•. · rhat cornrni ttE!e will. on a pd.o1~i ty basis, determine and advise Government as to just what action we can take as a Government to alJeviate the effects of' this shutdownn . Mr . Speaker, at this point in tirne I can go no farther, and I would hope tha l~ an stAler satisfies the han. Member. MR. RIDEOUT: (Inaudible) officials . MR. FLIGHT: Yes. MR. RIDEOUT : Why did you not te11 us six months ago? You said you knew six months ago. MR. SPEAKEr~ : The hon. l~he Mt ,~l llb E!r fol" For l:.une - Herrn:it age . MR. LANGDON : Mr . Speaker, I want: hon .

House that l::h !i:' ·to rai s1=. • is not No. 4 5 to assur<'! the mat t.E · r I IAJ'.'i. <; h d r a lfla l~. i. z (~ d • Rl.3

sensationalized or that of political expediency. I am since1ne. Ove1n the last month, as we have d:i s cussed thE! fi she 1ny, the predominant feeling for me has been one of hopelessness and despair. To know that children go to bed hungry, Mr . Speaker, is unnerving, a disgrace and unacceptable. There are fishermE!n who have not been addressed in all of these discussions; those of the winter fishery on the southwest coast. The winter fishery in the Seal Cove/HarboUJn BrE!ton area has been a devastating catastrophe. The average income of fishermen over the past three weeks has been thirty dollars.

My question is to the Minister. What p1nograrns are in place to help those bona fide, professional, longliner fishermen to help them survive in this time of crisis? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Fisheries . MR. W . CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I can assure the han. Member that the news that I am hearing is equally disquiE!ting for me, as well. I did lnl:!et with the fishermE!n of thE! south coast, in Harbour Breton, in Marystown, in Port aux Basques and in Burgee wil:.hin the past rnonl:h. We listened to some of their problems. Mr.

Speaker, there is a response program in place by the FedE•ral Government and I am told that the criteria by which that response program is being administered has relaxed where communities tA!ith a history in the fishery and FH:!ople tAd. th a proven history in the fishery will be assisted under that program. MR. SPEAKER: ThE• ·-·ho n-.--.. ··the ME!Hibe r f o 1n FortunE! - Hermitage . L14- Dr:>cernbE!r 1, 1989 Vol X LJ MR. LANGDON : ThE!Se people do not qualify under any F1?der·al program. No program.

These are the people in the winter fishery and they !·laVE! no JnecourSE! to any program until after the winter fishery is completed in l:he spring . Everyone knows, including the fishermen, that thE! fish is not there. The fish that t.hey do catch is about the size of canners and pan sized trout. The fishermen are devastated. Sorn1'?. of them have given up. Will the Minister put some temporary, financial package in plac e for these fishermen and l:hcdr destitute families to augment their catch income? MR. SPEAKER : ThE! hon. the MinistE!r of Fished .E!S . MR. W. CARTER: ---··--·----·-··--···-·--·---Mr.

Speaker, as l:he hon. M,:,rnbl'?.ln stated, these are winter Fishermen, and I presume they a·rE• getting ready soon to start to go fishing. Mr. Speaker, WI?. lis l:Mled to their problems and WE' atne taking some act.ion lAlil.:h:in t.h1:! Department to addJ~ess somE! oF those problE•ms, but CE'I~tain1y tJJI?. cannot be hE•ld r·esponsJbJe fol' ' Uw Fact that the Fish just aJnE! not there.

But I can tell you now U1at if it comes to pass l:hat Lhe winter fishery is a faiJ.urE!, as H . might very tJJe] 1 be , l: hen we tAI''i. ll do aJ.J. we can to makE! surE :! thL'lt the people affected get whatever help is availabJ.e to thern. MR . SPEAKER : fhe han. the MernbE!r For Fo1n l:unE! - H e r rn .i. tag e . MR. LANGDON : Mr . Speaker', theSE! fj sherrnen heW(! gonE• to l:h te! Department. oF ~3 oc ial Services and asked for he]p and have been told l:hal: Lhey havl'• t:o wait a two week period to geL in a No . 4-5 1n 4-

deficit position before they can qualiFy. There is just: no money. Will the Minister try to influence his fellow Cabinet colleagues to devise a package for these desperate fishermen and their families before

an act of genocide is perpetrated on the people? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr-. -Speaker··:- I had a meeting no later than Wednesday of this week with the Federal Minister of Fisheries. We discussed a number of matters pertaining to the industry, and I can tell you now there is a lot of consideration being put into coming up with programs that will be necessary to ensure that people affected will be helped over this crisis. MR. SPEAKER: The han . the ME!rnber fo1n Mount Pearl. MR . WINDSOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

In the absence of the MinistE•r of Municipal and Provincial Affairs, and in vielAJ of thE! fact that the Premier has just run off dotAmstairs, perhaps I wi11 addinE!SS my question to the House Leader, and he rnay be able to give rne some inFormation in relation to the Mount Pearl Fire DE!pa rtment. Mr . Speaker, the Minister will know that some two studies now, one by the Organization and Management Division of Treasury Board and one by Woods Gordon, have both confirmE•d that thE!

City of Mount Pearl is not adequal:ely protected by firE:! department, both have indicatE!d that a fire station should bE:~ buiJ.t in Mount Pearl on an urgent basis . The Minister wi11 aJ.so knalAJ that the previous us Deu'lnber 1, 1989 Vol XLI Administration authoriZE!d thE! City of Mount Pearl to bor1now l:he necessary funds to build a fire station and to buy the fi1ne trucks and other equipment that is necessary to Fully oper•ate a Firt:! department in the City of Mount Pearl. That has been done.

We now have a building completed or substantially completed and most equipment, including two 640 gallon per minute pumpers which are on site and ready to roll. The Minister of Municipal Affairs, Mt". Speaker, has dE!J.ayE!d the hiring of personnel. . Would l:he · Minister now t.eJ.l ITlE! lAJhE!n hE! proposes to come .in with whatev t~ r system he is proposing, be it a regional system or whateVE!r? lrJh1::'!n we will gE!t that anstAJeln so that: the fire department in Mount Pearl can be made operational.? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the PrE!Siclent of Treasury Board . MR . BAKER : Thank you, Mr . Speaker .

It is a SE!rious situation that l:.he hon. M1,•1nbe1" rE!ft::'!Jns to. I CcH1 sa y to him that. within the next rew days the legislation should be brought :i.nto the House. If, :i.n fact, it is held up any 1on<jl?r than that, then the Min is ter is going to have to go and look at the whole situation. I do not knolAJ in Uw lc\st. shol''l while what: has bt~l:'n happt::'ntnq, but I tAJ:i .ll take that undt:!ln aclvj SE!i'llE:!nt and I pr·omJSE! l:he hon. Mt:'lnber solflething fu1n -the1" on Monday. MR. SPEAKER : rhe han. l:he MetnbE!r FoJ " Mount PearJ. . MR. WINDSOR : No. 4-S 1n5

Mr . SpE!aker, I appreciate the Minister probably not being in possession of al1. the facts, but I want to get these questions to him because I wi11 not be here on Monday. I would like to ask, how much time are we going to wait? Six months have elapsed since the Minister asked the City of Mount Pearl to defer hiring their staff, in spite of the fact that the Minister authorized the Fire Commissioner to travel to Halifax with the city officials to do interviews for a potent 'ia1 chief. It tAJas only a month ago, Mr.

Speaker - I give the Minister this information because he probably dOE!S not haVE! it- the Minislc;!r actually asked the Fire Commissioner for his views on the studies that have been done.

And the Minister may not be aware that the Fire Commissioner has recommended that the City of Mount Pearl be authorized to proceed on thE!ir own, and that he does not r'c>commend the regional system that Woods Gordon have rE!CommE!nded, and that he feels that if a lnegiona1. system is put in p1acr:~. aJJ. thr:• volunteer fire departments in • Conception Bay South and othE!r ar,:'as around the urban area tAJi.ll disappear and will have to be replaced by full-time paid s tal ~·f, and that. the actual cost of firE! protection, l:herefore, tAJi .ll increase dramatically.

In view of that, tAJill \:he Minister and tAJi.ll thE! GoVE!rnment now al1ow the Cit.y of Mount Pea1nl to proceed tAli th l:hE• fu1l imp1.ernentati .on of their firE! department? MR. SPEAKER : Th E! han . the Presid ent of TrE!asury Board. MR. BAKER : L16 DecernbE•r 1, 1989 VoJ XLI Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I am not absolutely certain of some of the conclusions of the hon. ME!mbeln -· of consequences f1 no rn the implementation of the Woods Gordon Report in terms of the disappearance of volunteer workers.

I believe we have a very strong volunteer fire · br·igadE• movement in this Province and I think we will continue to have it. I will simply say I agree with him in one regard, that this is taking far too long and I tAr.i.11 look into it and get back to Uw hon . ME'!rrlber on Monday . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Mef'llber for · Mount PearJ.. MR. WINDSOR: Mr. Speaker, I s1:H! the Mintster of Mun:i.cipaJ Affair ·s ·.:i.s therE! notAl c:-tncl I appreciate that ~H'! is corning in 1.ate.

For his benefit, I have asked a couple of quest.i;)ns abou ·t the fire department and why the Minister is now holding up the implementation of that Fire department.

I IAJanL to ask hoi.rn thi s question: In view of lhe fact that those Fa ci1iUe~; are in p1.ace, as I said a moment.. ago, a Fully built, cornplnl:E!d f:i1"e station, filnE! trucks on s:il..E• and other equipment ordE!red and soon to bE! in pJ.ace; and t.he fact t.h<:it the City of Mount Pearl is now paying a1.most $2 million a year For fire protection service; they haVE! :i.nVE!Sted ~J;1.5 rn:i.]Jion to build this fire h~ll and equip this fire haLL; and studi .es havE• shown that:· \:hey can save rnore than $500,000 01" $600,000 peln YE!tH', Mt·'.

Speak,:'r, so thal: that $1.5 tni.llton can be rE!COVE!red i.n LhinE!e yE•ar·s, and it is shown that they can opE!lnate that r·J.I"E! station For· about ~J;l.2 million, inc]uding LhE• No. 4 5 rn6

amortization of the capital cost of that, and that at the moment almost 50 per cent of all property taxes collected in the City of Mount Pearl are going towards fire protection, $20 pE!r capita· on the average, $80 per household, yet there is not adequate fire protection in the City of Mount Pearl. Now the Minister was not here, but I have indicated to the House that I am aware that the Fire Commissioner has told thE! Minister that he rE!Commends that the City of Mount Pearl be:.~ allowed to proceed on J.ts own, and that the fire station be put in place immed iately . Now, I ask the Mintster this question, Mr.

Speaker: Will the Minister now stop procrastinating and allow the City of Mount Pearl to complete the operation of that fire department immediately, before somebody is burnt to death in the!ir beds and before serious property damage results? MR. SPEAKER : The han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. MR. GULLAGE : Yes. Mr. Speaker, we are in the process now oF finalizing all the procedures necessary and entering into discussions with the Union that is involved .

Hopefully, we will have a regional fire figh ti ng service in place before the Union Agreement expires, that is our go al . which is March 31st. We have the same concerns as the M(: !mber do1:1s. about thE! inefficiencies of the Fire D"'~partment as it pre sently is constituted. We know t.ue havE• to make changes. We know the costs ar e excessive in so me areas and we have had discu ss ions with the Ll? December 1, 1989 Vol XLI union concerning discussions will union negotiations that. Those be ongoing in as well.

In my meetings with the City of Mount Pearl, the Mayor and councillors. rny staff and myself, we have had detailed dtscussions about the fact that they are paying extra costs . TherE! is no question about it, t: he Me mb E'!r' is quite right when he says that they are paying extra costs over and above what they shouJd pay. The City of St. John's is in the same posttton, and we sympathize with that.

I have made a commitment to l:l·l,;:!i'n that if we put together a regionaJ fire-fighting service - which is not FtnaJ.ized. and a Jot deponds on union n E• got. i at ions --- b u l:. iF tAll'?! put together a regjonal service that includes Mount Pearl, they wtll be compensated fol" Uw cos l:s they have had to bear to the point when we make that decision. I have made that commitment to them. I have also said that jt :Ls imperative that we have union co- -opE!ration to put LogeHH:·r· a ~egional fire-fighting service that would include Mount Pearl and other parts of the urban area.

HopE!fully we can achievo that; c1 lot depends on un ·ion nE!gotia t.ions and being able to achieve tha t with their co -operation. rhe Fire Commissioner has raised some concerns, and we have had conc1:!rns fl"om ol:hel" al"eas. as IAH::'11. becauSE! Uris d:i.scussion does not just:. involv"' 1ny ilttniodiall:! officials. The concerns are the fact that we are trying to put together a fire -figh~ing service l:hat includes urban and t"ur ·a l a.rE!aS of thi s par' ·l:i cuJ.ar' Not"-Lheas L Avalon area . rha t presents so rn1?. rea1 cha1lenges. becauSE! we havE · 1:1 full-time fire-Fighting Force No. 4 5 I~ 17

covering St. John 1 s, Mount Pearl, Wedgewood Park, St. Phillips, Portugal Cove and Paradise/St. Thomas, and we haVE! volunteer departments surrounding those communities in the rural areas. The concern of the Fire Commissioner is the volunteer fire departments, and that ·they be left in place. We have had some discussions as recently as a couple of days ago with the Fire Commissioner and Mr. Hollett, his assistant, trying to come to grips tJJith that particular problem.

It is a good point and we have to resolve it before we decide which co rnm unities s h o u 1 d be involved in a regional fire-fighting service and which should be left outside, if you like, as volunteE!rS. So, we are addressing that, Mr. Speaker. To go back to the Mount Pearl situation, as quickly as possible, not just for Mount Pearl 1 s sake, but also for St. John 1 s and the other arE:~as I mentioned in the urban corE!, we arE! trying to put in place a regiona1 fire-fighting service, and WE! wi1l be doing that, Mr.

SpeakE!r, as fairly as possible to address al1 the concerns, including the concerns he has raised about Mount Pearl and the extra costs they have to bear. We will certainly be addressing that and making sure that when this new ful1-time Fire-fighting service goes in place to cover this region, as tJJell as a volunteer component surrounding the urban arE!a, that it will be done on a fair and equitable basis to all the communities involved. MR. SPEAKER : Question Period has expired . MR .

WINDSOR : Ll8 Dece mber 1, 1989 Vol XLI Perhaps we could have a couplE! of more rrdnutes just for~ one fina1 supplementary, in view of thE! t :irnc~ that lAJas lost. MR. SPEAKER: No, Question Period I have already gone OVE!r. SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave? MR. SPEAKER: Is there leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAK .ER: has expirE!d. c:!'ight rninutes The hon . the Member for Mount Pearl. MR. WINDSOR : Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I appreciate:' thE! t.o1E!r'ance of the House. This is an important issue. As I indicated, I lAJi .11 not be here Monday, and I want: to cloal with this issue.

I want to put one more question to the Minister. rhc Ministc:!l" has answered rny question, because he has talked about : l:he negotiat .ions that are necessary, legis1ation which has to be brought before this House, which we have not seen yet. And I tell the Minister, if that legislation includes provision for· the Minis l:c:'r to force munic~palities to participate in any regiona1 Fire s y stern, it u..Jil J. no L go t·:.hr·ouc,1 h this House very quickly , I can assure him of that. Cost, Mr . SpeakE!r, is a concE·r·n here. MR. SPEAKEr~ : I am waiting For the hon. Membc:~r 1 s No . 4 5 R18

question. MR. WINDSOR : I will, Mr. Speaker, very quickly. The City of Mount Pearl is pay'.ing $26,000 a month now in interest alone on the facilities that t.uere put in place . And I remind the Minister, when he talks about union negotiations, here is the problem. He is talking about negotiating with the St. John's Fire Department union. The City of Mount Pearl has an agreement in place with their union which covers UlE! Fire DE!partment in Mount Pearl until December 31, 1994. To proceed with the FirE! Department. Mr. Speaker, does not require negotiations with a union.

To proceed with the regional system does, because it talks about the St. John's union. MR. WALSH: (Inaudible) . MR. WINDSOR: The Member fo1" Mount Scio - Bell Island should not say anything, Mr. Speaker." I haV1:;! a letter here signed by him when he was President of the Chamber of Commerce, asking that this bE! done :ilnmediate1y . So his posihon is prE!tty firrn.

I ask the Minister, in vi.et.u of the length of time that obviously tAJill be taken to negotiate with unions, to negotiate tAJith all of l~he Mun·id.paliU.es around, the various Fire departments and to br·ing legislat:i.on to this House, does he not now agree that it is imperative thct-t Mount PE•<:H'1 bE· allolA/ed to p1noceed itnmed.iately with staffing of their fire department From the 600 applications that are on hand? MR. SPEAKER : 1_19 Dr0U!Iflbl?.r 1, 1989 Vol XLI The han. the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. ~-~--~----G.!:l .. U_.:.fl G E : ThE!

Ci.ty of Mount Peal"l, the rnayo1n and councilors in l~hat particular city, as recently as thrE!t::~ WE!eks ago I met with tht::Hn and they haVE! agreed to take the time that is necessary to do l~his right. · I am not sure where he gets his info1nmation, Mr. SpeakE!r, but in my recent discussion with them, their reaction was t:hal~ they realiZE! we haVE! a pl"oblE!ITI situation . I as ked lhf:!m to t.uai t; thr·oughout thE! last. sE•veral rnont.hs I have been asking them to wait and hold off in staffing their Departmr:~nt. And they have agr'E!ed to do that.

We are rnoving as urgently and as quickly as we can to resolVE! the plnoblem, and they are willing to lAlait until w1:! resolve the problem. We do not want to see that particular location staffed with people - the complications with another union in play. That union, ind.denl:J.y, that agreement is only a tentative agreement subject to - MR. WINDSOR: It is a firm agreement . MR. GULLAGE: No, it is not a firrn agrE!E!rnenl ... According to thE! tnayor and councilors it js nol: a fji"ITI agreement, il~ :is a tenl:.at:ive agreement. subject Lo l-.:hE• City o f Mount Pearl having a sepaJ"al~E! f:iln!O! department.

If the Fire dE!parbnent does not bHcorne a separatE! depe1rtrnenl, thE! agJ"ec:•rnE·nt does not take place, and that. is l~hE! rnayor· and cound J.ors teJ ling me that. So I can only reiterate, Mr. Speaker, Lhat we will rnake sure that any cosl:. bor·ne by Lh'" City of Mount Pearl, when a regional fire-fighting service goes in pJ.ace, wtJl be covered off" No. 4-S 1n9

by the Province. We arE! moving tAJith gn1at haste, Mr. Speaker, and as quickly as we can, we will have the matter resolved. AN HON. MEMBER : It it unacceptable. If somebody burns to death, you are responsible. MR. GULLAGE : Why would you make coJmTlE!nts J.ike that, that is totally irresponsible. ?OME_.HON ... _!"'f.:...MB E R~: Oh, oh! MR. GULLAGE: ·---·· ·--·-·--·"' "'- Mount Pearl is being · covered b'y the St. John 1 s - MR. SPEAKER : Order, pJ.ease! Order, plese! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! AN HON. MEMBER: Sit down . The standing, sit down. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order!

SpE!aker is The time for Question Period has elapsed. MR. GULLAGE: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order . MR. GULLAGE: __ ,,. ,.,,, ______ ,,,,_,_ Mr. Speaker, for the han. Member to make such an irJ~esponsiblE' comment is intolerable . It should not be tolerated by the House. The St. John 1 s Fire Department couE>rs the Northeast Avalon Region and he knows that. L20 DE!CE!rnber 1, 1989 Vol XLI MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! AN HON . MEMBER : Sit down. The Speaker is stand-.i.ng . MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! The hon. gentJ.ernan is not up on a point of order. It is not a point of order.

I would like to weJ.corne to the House of Asselflbly today on behalf of hon. MernbeJ"S, sixty grade IX students from St. PE!ter' 1 S Elementary School, Mount Pearl, accompanied by their teachE!rs, Mr. David Denine and Mr. Chris Hatch . I would also like to welcome to the House of Ass~;;Hnbly Fifty, Let;el I and Level II, students fi"Ofrl the Jack Walsh High School in WE•s l~orn Bay, accompanied by thoir teachers, Mr. Ralph Jerrett, Mr. Peter Snow, and Mr. PauJ. StE!VE•nson. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR . SPEAKER : Or-der, please!

I would like to now addrE'ss a matter that arosl'! in Question PE'riod at its appropriate place and His Honor wants to r0ad to hon. MernbE>rs sornE! J~uJes Frorn Beauchesne regarding questions. I would like to read From Beauchesne, 6l:h Edit .. ion, IJ-09 (2) 11 Th e que s U. on mu s t be b I'' ::i.t:! f . A

preamble need not exceed one carE!fu11y drav..m sentence. A lon~1 Pl"eamble on a long qu,:=!stion l:ab~s an unFair' share of L-irno and provokes Lhe same soJ~t oF reply. A supplementary question should need no pr'earnble. 11 No . 115 R20

His Honor did not make the rul1:-s. His Honor is doing his best to call th~::1m. His Honor has sat. in this House for a number of YE!ars and I haue on occasion been called to order more than once in my

preamble, which I always accepted, and went to the question. And I will challenge anybody to look into the Hansard and find out that His Honour has not been morE! than fair in allowing

preambles. I would suggest that I haue allowed more

preambles than any prE!Uious SpE!aker, and that is a result of my experience, because I belieue that decorum is more important than how long a person takes answering a question. But the job of His Honour is to call the rules. I did not make them. Now, if han. ME!mbeJns want to eliminate hauing a p1neamble, then han. Members should get together a·nd change the rules. As I haue said, this particular Chair has been more than tolerant with

preambles. Maybe that is part of the problem. Maybe the Chair should not allow any

preamblE! at all, but I haue tried to accommodate the sty1E:'S of hon. MembE•rs, and the Cha:ir does not appreciate, wl·wn rE!JTd.nding han. Members to get into the question, the kind of thing that happened today. The Chair will not tolerate it and does not tolerate i. t. I want to say that ou·r own ruJ.es say that the Speaker's rules arE! final with respect to Question Period and that is for good reason . As a rna t t E! r of fact , the SpeakE!r' s ruLi .ng ou~Jht to be finaJ. in much more than Ques l:.ion P1?r·iod, and :is, in many other Houses throughout Canada. Now, thE• Member, wh1:!n I as ked that L.21.

Dr:=!cernber 1, 1989 Vo1 XLI he get ·to th~::1 question, said that he was on to a new question. Maybe the Chair did not use the right sE:1J.ecU.o ~n of lAJords, but the Chair is subject to hulllan EHTor from time to tiJTIE:1, as wel1. MaybE:' I got the Member a little aggravated when I suggested that he, the han. Member, was playing with the Chair. I apologize if it was the wrong choice of words. But the point of the matter is that a ME:Hnber cannot skirt around the rules by suggesting that he :is asking a new question. Now, what is a· new qu1:!S tion?

I assume that a new question at least oughl: to be on a m•w l:opic and, in rny rulE• and in rny association with the House, 1nost genE!ra11y, a neLu quE•st:i on tAla~ ; direc lt:•d to another Ministr:!r. 13ut I suggest that thE! hon. ME:!ITJbE·J~ cltd not ask a new quesl:ion, that: Lh1:• question was thE! saJ'I'JE:! question on the sarne topic, what tAJas happening to Abitibi-Price, and addrE!SSE•d to the same Minister. And th1:> House has to be firm in that respect. I l..llant hon.

Members to unde1ns Land, as I haue said bt!FOrl?., l:hat. lAihl?n the Chair asks a ME!i'l'lbE•in to gC>t to l: he quest. ion , we can no l:. say i l: :is a nE!W qut!stion un1r:•ss, inde1''cl, :i.t. is a new question. Hon. M(!ITJbers would appreciate that. it is diFficult for the Chair to d:''c:i.ck! 1.uhen tl'w Min:i.stE•r geLs up and starts responding l:o the quesl:i.on, what the question is going to be, whether inde1?d i.t is going t··o I::H?. new, and I a1n l..ll·.i.l..loing to l.is l:.en. I 1is tened, and, as I said, LhE! quE:!stion J.ollas not, indE=!ecl, a n1=:!lAI one, 'in the opinton oF U11?

Chair :it was a supplemenl.ary quest.ion. Again, I ask for han. Members' co -operation, again suggesting to you that I have been uery lenient with respect to the

preamble . No. 4.:> f\21.

And, with the han . Member speaking today, I was more than lenient and, indeed, allowed him to ask a question for which he did not want My final comment to Members is that when a Member asks a question, the Member asking the questton, und0.1r the l"uJ.es of the House, is not entitled to cornment upon the answer . The Member is supposed to get into the question. I have noticed some Members developing the habit, the same as if it were a Ministerial Statement, making a comment and then making another comment before proceeding to the question. So I want to make sure that han.

Members understand and I just want to say that thE ~ Chair FE~lt, indeed, today that the hon. Member did, indeed, ask a supplE~rnentary question, and I simply ask For the co-operation of hon. Members in the future . MR. HEWLETT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. ·MR. SPEAKER: The han . the Member fol" Green Bay on a point of order. MR. HEWLETT : It :i.s probably mention l~his particular time . appropriate matter at that I this On October 19 I asked the question, how much hydr·o pot.uer could you generate if you da1nrned Meech Lake, and I guess thP answer is none. Thank you . MR.

SPEAKER: Again, "there is no point of order. Aga:in I implore upon hon. Members, pJ.easE~, when we get on L22 Deu,mber 1, 1989 Vol XLI points of order, let us ensure that they are serious points of order, otherwise where does the Chair stop?· When a Member gets up on a point of order , obviously l:hE! Chair wi 1.1 have to rE! cognizE! tl'w Member. MR. HEWLETT: I apologize, Mr . Speaker . Orders of the Day MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker, Motion 1. Motion, the hon. the Minisl:.el" of Justice to introduce a bill entitJ.ed, "An Act To RevisE! The Law Respecting rhe Provincial Court," carriE!d. (Bill No . 4·9).

On motion, Bill No. 49 First time, ordel"t::'d r'1~ad time, on tomorrow. MR. BAKER : Motion 2. I~E!ad a a second Matton, thE! hon. the Mini<;l:E•i" of ~ Development to introduce a bill enti .tled, "An Act To Am c·ncl The Co -Operative Societies A c l~.' II carried. (Bi11 . No. 50). On moti .on, Bi 11 No. 50 First Lime, ordered r'l:'ad time, on tomorrow. r'ead a a second MR . BAKER : • •·-• - ••• - ·•~· -·•-• H _ __ _ Motion 3. Motion, the hon. the M:ird.stE!r' of Mines and Energy to introduce a bi11 entj.tJ.ed, "An Ac L ro An1end l"he Elec tr'ical Pot.u,~r Contr'ol Act.," carriE!d. (Bi11 No . 54).

On motion, Bi11 No .54 read a time, orde!l"i:O!d r('·'1d a SE!COnd on t.omorJ"OlAJ. No. 1~5 f·.i.I"St time, I~ 2 2

MR. BAKER: Motion 4 . Motion, the hon. the Minis tc;!r of Finance to introduce a Bill entitled, "An Act Respecting A Pension Plan For Certain Employees In The Province, 11 carried. (Bill No. 52) On motion, Bill No. 52, first tim.::', o1ndered read time, on tomorrow. MR.

BAKER: Motion 5 . read a a SE!COnd Motion, the hon. the MinistE!r of Environment and Lands to introduce a Bill entitled, "An Act To Revise And Consolidate The Law Respecting Th.::~ Crown Lands, Public Lands And Other Lands Of rhe Province, II carried. (Bi11 No. 53) On motion, BiJ.l No . 53, re•ad a First time, ordered r1:=!ad a second time, on tomorrow. MR. BAKER : Order 17. Motion, second reading of a BiJ.l, "An Act To AmE!nd rhe Fisher·ies Loan Act," (Bill No. 37). MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CAinER: Mr. Speaker, this Bi11 tAJil.l amend The Fisher·ies Loan Act.

And while it wil.l not in any way affect the status oF the Board For the purpose of administering loans unde1n the Act, in accordance tAJith the recent reorganization of the Public Service and, of course, the Loan Board, the administrative structure of the Board would be changed to provide for the appointment of a managing direcl~or of thE! Board. 1.23 DOCI':!rnber 1., 1.989 Vol XLI LE!t mE:~ explain fo1n a mornE!nt, Ml". Speaker, L•.Jha·t thc:~t is a11 about. P1"j.or to the reol"ganization to which I just reFc;!rred, !:hE! Chairman of thE! Fisl·wries Loan Board was responsiblE!

For th1:! day-··to-day opE!raU.ons of the Board. He was a fu11-time Chairman who not only presided over meetings of the Board, but also administered the Board. In recent i'nonths, Mr Speai<E!r, we found it necessary to make certain changes to the Board to make it more effective and to be betl:er able to respond to the needs of the fishermen of OUI" Pn1vince and be bel:ter ablE! to cai"I"Y out its mandate•.

We dE!Cided WE! wou]d takE! the Chair·rnan of the Board as it IAJas th€~n const:i.tutE!cl, and appcd.nt htm as an Assistant Deputy Minister of Fisheries and enable him to continUE! to act, to chail" lrJt:=!eLings of the Board. It tAJas then decided that WE! would seek permission to appoint a managing director or chief e x e c u t i v e o f f' i c' e 1A , w h a t e v E!

I" t. i t ] r:~ you want:. to put on that pc;!rson, who lAJouJ.d thE•n bE• l"esponsiblr::• fclln the day - to - day administration of the Board, reporting to the Chair·rnan who, in !~urn, raU11:;!r !~han rE!port to the Minis tel" as IAJas the case previously, would then r~:'port to the Deputy Minister of Fisheries. Mr.

Speaker, as I said at !:he outs.::'t, thJ.s a111endrnent Lo The FisheriE:'S Loan Act 1Alil1 nol .. l~i.'!kl~ away f rom the operation of Lhe Board, lAJil.1 nol~ 1nedt.IC1:~ ·its authority or its ability to lnespond l~o lht:' r11:~1:;!ds of l:.h1:• f'isherrnen of our Province who, quite frequ1:=!n t.ly, havH occasion to s e r:d< f i n rHl c i a 1 he 1 p fro 111 t h H No . ~~ 5 I~ 2 3

Board. But, in our viE!W and that of the people within the Public Service who arr:~ charged with the responsibility for restructuring and maybe introducing measures that will make the Public Service more responsive to the needs of the people, in their view the proposed structure will certainly do that in terms of the Fisheries Loan Board. As I said, Mr. Speaker, the Chairman of that Board now will report directly to the Deputy Minister rather than to the Minis·ter, and, of course, it will be managed by the Managing Director rather than the Chairman. MR. SPEAKER : The hon. the Member for Torngat Mountains. M~.

WARREN: Is there a quorum in the House? MR. SPEAKER: A quorum call. Call in the Members. May I have the count please? Quorum present. ThE! hon. the LE!ader of the Opposition. MR . RIDEOUT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr . Speaker, Bill 37, "An Act To Amend The Fisheries Loan Act," you JAJould not kno1.u, listening t:o thE! Few br·ir:!f words From the Minister, that this was a morning muffin. Mr. Speaker, this :i.s a major piece of lE!gislation. ThE! Minis l:r:•r oVE!In the last several of months, Mr. SpE!aker, has imposed majo1n surgery on th~ Fisheries Loan Board. L24 December 1, 1989 Vol XLI AN HON.

MEMBER: He has corrected it . MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. SpE!aker, wants to say go back to might listen to say . if the hon. thrustE!In something, he should his seat. Then we to what he might have MR. SPEAKER : Order, please! I would as ked the hon . LE!adE•r of the Opposition to - I have noticed in the last couple of days that hon . Members from both sides of the House have been guilty of making rE:'I'narks while not. in thoi.r seats, and I would as I< hon. Members please to refrain From doing so. Hon. ME!mbers know thr:!y are not suppos,~d l:o nJak'=' rE!Inar·ks unless they are s:i.tt:i.ng in ·Uw.i.r own seats. MR.

SPEAKER : The hon. the Leader Opposition . MR. RIDEOUT : Thank you, Ml". SpeakE!r'. it is out of order, doubJ.y out oF OJ"deln oF the Even then bu l U is lAJh ('! n t·. hI:! Member is not in his seat. Now, Min. SpeakE!r, thE! Mini.stE!r' gave very little information on this particular aTTJE!ndrnent l:hat he has brought in hE!re this morning, very litl:le. But the Minisl:er, over the last seveJnal rnonl:hs, Mr. SpE!aker, has done a n1aj or reorganization at the Fisheries Loan Bocn·d.

You nolAJ haVI:! a situation where you do not hav1:! a full-time Chairman of Lhe Fisheries Loan Board anymoJ"e, you haVE1 a peJ"son 1.uho is noJ.u t:hE• Assistant Deputy Minister in Lhe DepartrnE:'nt of Fi.sher:i.es JAJho Chairs the meetings o F the l...·o an 13 oar· d , you have a situation where you No. '~5 I~ 24-

have a Managing Director, whose job it is to n1 n th~~ day-to·····day affairs of the Board. Mr. Speaker, that toan Board is a major CrotAJn Corporation. I suppose it is one of the most significant of all Crown Corporations, The Fisheries Loan Board. It has a loan portfolio. I do not know, I do not remember. but it is certainly forty or fifty million dollars. It deals with thousands of fishermen a year, and now you have an Administrative structure where the person responsible for that Board is also an Assistant Dep~ty Minister in the Department. It is unbeli.evable, Mr . Speaker, what that Minister has done.

It also needs to be said today, and it i.s time for the Minister to tell the House, what is happening with the Fisheries Loan Boar·d and bank loan guarantees. Is it a fact, Mr. Speaker, that the Chartered Banks of this Province; particularly the Bank of Nova Scotia which has the vast - oh, ninE!ty-odd per cent. weLl over ninety per cent of the loan guarantees that the Province has out through the Fisheri1:!S Loan Board, is it a facl:: that the Bank of Nova 'Scotia for the las l:: several months has not been approving any loan guarantees through thE! Fisheries Loan Boar·d? Is that a Fact?

We have been hearing that, Mr. Speaker, we have been hearing from fishermen who have excellent credit - AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. RIDEOUT: TtAJo. in the months. We have fishermen, last beE!n who six or SI'::'Ven hearing from have excellent L25 DecernbE!r 1, 1989 Vo1 XLI credit in this Province at the Bank. who cannot get Bank appt~oval because the Bank of Nova Scotia is no longer happy with the Provincial Government and the Fisheries l,_oan Board Bank Loan Guarantee Program.

The Minister gets up and introduces an 11 Act To Amend The Fisheries Loan Act 11 and does not say a word, does not te11 us a word about what is happE!nin~1 tAJith the day·-to .. -day aC'tivities of the FisheriE!S Loan Board. 01~ is it because of the secret agenda of this Government that. thE! M:i.nister shakes his head at - h~;:' just got back from Ottawa; nE!VE:~r had . a Ministerial Statement l:his morning tel1ing us what he talked about up there.

Is it because thE!re is a secret agenda by this Government to take people out oF the Fishc:!ry and one of the ways they are going to do that. is by. making tl: mor1?. difficult for ·people to get financing through the Fishet"'.i .1~s Loan Board? And the MinistE!r WE! have today is the samE! qentletnan who was ·OVE:~r hE!re only a YE!ar or so ago talking about making it easier for fishermen to get financing 0 rhis Ministl:!r. in F iVI?. or six, or six ot~ sevE•n rnonLhs in oFfice, has made it tllore diFFicu1t morE! difficult:-· · fot" fishE•t~rnan to get financing.

He was ouer het~E! talking about the fact: that. you should have Financing For gear, you should have Financing For mussel Farms, you should hau1?. financing For aquacultut~e. A1.1 of that should be under The Fisheries Loan A~t., he used to te11 us tAJhen he was over here . The gentleman cannot shake his head, Mr. SpeakE•r, il: is in Hansard. I have gone back and looked at it. WhE!Il l:he hun. gent1eman was over here, he was proposing those kinds oF measures. Now he is over there as a Minister, particu1arly Minister No. 4.5 R2 !)

of Fisheries, and he is making it more and more difficult. Every single day he is making it more difficult for· fishermen in this Province to obtain financing through the Fisheries Loan Board. MR. R. AYLWARD: You missed the dinner last week, did you? MR. RIDE09T: Yes, I should have come down. It was a good night. MR. R. AYLWARD: I missed one, too . MR. RIDEOUT: we--did-no·t- have to pay $1. so for it either, Mr. Speaker, it was Free. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR. RIDEOUT: What do you are a lot of have to keep coin greased SpE!aker. mean, former? There people who feel they both sides of the these days, Mr. MR.

R. AYLWARD: They-h-ave --to kowtow to the Liberals. MR. RIDEOUT: They have to kowtow to the Liberals, because they are actuaJ.ly bE!ing called up and toJ.d if they do not, what the result of if they do not will be, Ml~. Speaker. MR. DECKER: (Inaudible). MR. RIDEOUT: Here he goes! There he goes, the Minister of HeaJ.th who does not even have the good sense to stand up in the House when he is asked a s~rious question and answer it L26 DE!Cernber l., 1989 VoJ. XLI wi ·thout playing politics with i.t . He does not have the good sense to do it, Mr . Speaker . One of these days he is going to learn. MR .

DECKER: I have not had a serious quesU .on from you fellows yet . MR. RIDEOUT: Is that right? Member for St. that? I lAJonder did the John 1 s Eas l: hE.>ar MS DUFF: No, I did not . MR. RIDEOUT: He has not had frorn us yet. you fellas! a ser·ious question From 1 you fE!lla:s 1 The Minister of HE!C:'ll th, Ml'·. Speaker, has been in the Hous10! quitE! a lAJhi.le. · HE! must. knotAJ that: fe1las, or ladies, or there is no such thing Chamber. It is an han. Mr. Speaker, whether thE! likes it or· not. MR . DECKER: That is like heaven : shaLL be one. MR.

RIDEOUT: whatever, in this Member, Minister rhE!Y all I can see, Mr. Sp1~aker, that: the Minister is reverting to his foJ"rner occupation. He should have stayed at il:. I can sE•e lAJhy hE:• got defrocked. And he will be defrocked aga'.l.n, Ml ". SpE!akE!r. He will be defrocked again, I can assu~e the hon. gent le man oF that. Not.u, to gE!t back to The Fi! ;he l"ies Loan Ac l:. !"he , Minis Ler· oF FisherJ.es has ernbarkE·d on a pJan, and he is doing it through the Fisheries Loan Board; he :is do:inq it through eVE!ry rn~;: 'a ns hE! can in hi s DE!pal~tment:. He even has the brass face, Mr.

SpG'aker, to sl~and No . 4.5 1~26

up in this House and admit it . You do not do it up in the serum, up in the:' gallery. You watch the gentleman on television and you would not say what his agenda is. But he will do it in this House. He will do it through little amendments like this. The han. gentleman, who published a document - one of my colleagues had it there the other day - 'Fish is the Future', back in the 1970s - MR. R. AYLWARD : The new trend is fish is the futurE• for few. MR. RIDEOUT: Right.

When he u.Jas Minister of Fisheries back in the 1970s, the gentleman who encouraged hundreds and thousands of Newfoundlanders to get into· thE• fishery, is now the same gentleman who has embarked on a plan to downsize the fishery of Newfoundland and Labrador. Those people he brought into it, Mr. Speaker, he is now trying to kick out of it. Those people he encouraged to come for the one do1lar boats, 'the Carter boats' they called them out in Twillingate and LaScie and Fleur de Lys and thos'" places, 1 the dollar boats 1, he is now fret~zing those people out of the fishE!ry. That is E•xactly what he is doing, Mr.

SpE:~aker. And he come:~s in here this morning trying to sneak through in a minute or so, 11

An Act To Amend The Fishe1nies Loan Act 11 , which is a major plank in his platform and in his plan for downsizing the fishery in Newfoundland and Labrador. Nou.J, Mr. Speaker, I can t.Ed.1 the Minist:E!r that he had bet.ter come here with some explanations of what he is doing to l~hat Fisheries Loan Board. He has rnade the Fisheries Loan Board a mo~kery. It t.uas SE!t up to be inclt:=!pE•ndent 1_ 27 Decembr:>.r 1, 1989 Vol XLI and it shoul.d be. Now, thE!

MinistE•r has madE! the Chairman of that Board an Assistant Deputy Minister in the Department, who goes down once every three or Four wr:Hd<s, wheneve1n Uwy mE!C::d:, and Chairs ·the Loan Board meeting. In other words, Mr. Speaker, a management person not an independent person, a management person, -an Assistant Deputy Minister who is at the beck and call of the Minister: 'Now, my friend, you go down to the· Loan Board and you get this clone this way.' An assi.stant DE!put.y Minister in the DepartlllE!nt. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) wrong with it. MR.

RIDEOUT: Yes, there is so1'neth:-i.ng Wl"ong with it, for a Board that is suppo~;,~d to be independent. Mr. Speaker, u.Je saw beFo1ne a majol" reorganization of the Fisht:~r:it:~s Loan Board as a res~lt of incompetence. And do you know who thE! MinistE!r was then? Tl·11':! same gentlernan t.-Jho is l~hE:• Mints L1~r today. MR. GRIMES: I find that hard to believe . MR. RIDEOUT: You do? The han. gunt1eman Fr·orn Exploits Finds ~ 1ol~ hal''cl to be1ieve, Mr. Speake I". 13ut the fact of the matter is, the Fisheries Loan Board was bungled and badly managed :in the 1970's because oF political interference.

And now i~ is happening aqain, because l:he Minis l~E:~r has nouJ rnade th1::. Cha"inllan of the Fisheries Loan Board an Assistant Deputy M-inister in the Department of Fisheries. AN HON. MEMBER : No. 45 I~ 2 '7

(InaudibJ.e). MR . RIDEOUT: I wonder is it the hour of the morning, or has the han . gentleman actually lost every marble that he ever had? if he had one. Or is the hon. gentleman on an overdose of s·tunned pills this morning, Mr . SpE!aker? What is wrong with the hon. gentleman? Did you read the piece of legislation? I do not believe the han. gentleman read it. Because one of the things that has happened here is that the reports now, instead of going to the Minister, go to the Ueputy Minister. Did the han. gent1eman read the piece of legislation? Did you read the legislation? AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible·). MR.

RIDEOUT: You did? You read the legislation. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) trying to learn it . MR. RIDEOUT: Well, for surE! you are pi'.lls, if you have not on stunned caught the significance of this piecE! of legislation. Mr. Speaker, to get back to the Minister, I arn morE! interested in not being sidetracked by rabbits whE!n I am shooting at E!1ephants, when I am shooting moose. The Minister is the moose here this morning. . B.fLJ:! .ON __ :.._ __ ME M B E R : Your predecessor was the rabbit man. MR. RIDEOUT: I am the moose l:his Ylc'ar, Mr. dust. If there thE!r E• t!Jho wants man.

Two moose Sp1:;!aker, _bit the is anybody over a fry, come talk L28 Dr:-cE•rnber 1, 1989 Uol XLI to me outside. AN HON. MEMBER: Is it tough? MR. RIDEOUT: Not 'half as tough as the moose opposite. Mr. Speaker, we nE!E!d an accounting in this ·House From the Minis h::~r on the Fisheries Loan Board. I know for a fact, and the Minister can shake his head and bite Ills li.p, do what he lib.'!s, I know for a fact that fishermen in this Province with good credit today arE! Finding it very, UE!I~y difficult, almost. impossible, to get loans through the chartered banks under the loan Board bank loan guaranteE! pro~1r·arn.

Why? Why is that so, Mr. Speakr::!r? rh1:> banks are not worried about a Government guarantee, are l:hr::•y? Are the banks worried about a Government guarantlo!l?.? I l'nean, Lh1? bank of Nova Scotia has $26 - $28 million out through l:he. Fisher'i~~s Loan Board under Government guarantee. Why is it l:ha l:. in l:.h1:! last 6 or 7 months there have only been t.wo loans appr·ov(•d? We know lAJhy it is, M1~. SpeakE!!~.

Tl.. i.s because this Government has sent the signal through the fisheries loan Board through to the banks that you ai~E· not. to appi~OVE! any 1nore loans to build boal:s, I:H:•cause thE!re i.s a1rE•ady too 111uch harves t.ing capaci l:y in l:hc• FishE!ry and our program is to downsize and downgrade thE! fishe1ny, i::tlld to l:dke peop1e out of thE• Fishery. That is tl-11:> plan by th1::> Gover·nrnen t., Ml~ . SpE!aker, and that has gone thl"ouqh to the banks. And l:hP banks are turning down peoplE!, not because oF c r 1;' d i l:. worthiness , b u l: b n c au s 1? they knotAJ thE!

CoUE!rnlriE!nt ts reneging and haul.'.inq back un l:he loan gual~an LeE! . No . 45 R2H

The Minister of Finance may not know that. Although it is the Minister of Finance who actually signs the loan guarantee, it is the Minister of FisheriE!S, thl"ough the Fisheries Loan Board. who has sent that signal. particularly to the Bank of Nova Scotia, because ninety-odd per cent of the fisheries loans are 1.ui th the Bank of Nova Scotia; they are the banks which are in most of the rural areas of Newfoundland and Labrador.

I do not know if the Minister kno1.us that, but thc:1y arE! mo1"e prominent out thore than the Royal Bank or the Bank of Montreal or the Canadian Imperial Bank. they are out in rural Newfoundland and that is why they have · ninety-odd per cent of the fisheries loans. That is why they have it. And the fact of the matter is. they are not approving any loans now becauSE! the Minister has told the Bank, through the FisheriE!S Loan Board, that we do not want to see any more harvesting capacity put in place. DR. KITCHEN: I signed one the other day . MR. RIDEOUT: That is not wrong . DR.

KITCHEN: No, I signed one the other day . MR . RIDEOUT: Ther·e are two loans. WilJ . the Minister tell the House if there has only been tt.uo loans appr·oved so Far in the last five;! or six months. Bank loans that is. not those under fifty thousand. Only two. DR. KITCHFN: No. that js wrong . MR . RIDEOUf: HQlAI many? · 1.29 DE!Ceinber 1. 1.989 Vol XLI DR. KITCHEN : Dozens. Ml~. RIDEOUT : Dozc:~ns? Dozens in thc::1 J.ast fivP or six months. Loans over $50,000? DR. KITCHEN : Yes. MR. RIDEOUT: Up to $1~million? AN HON. MEMBER : Over. MR. RIDEOUT: Up to $1 million, through thE! Fisheries We'll, Mr .

Minister Loan Board, dozens? Speaker. I can tcdl l:he oF Finance that he is wrong. He is wrong. Because I know every loan that has been approved, and I do not have a brother working in the Fisheries Loan Board. I know every loan that has been approved through the Bank of Nova Scotia since this Government took ofFice. DR. KITCHEN: The Bank of Nova Scotia? MR. RIDEOUf: Yes. And nJnety·· ·-odd FlE!l~ CE~n t of the loans through the Fisheries Loan Bocu"d go t:o thE! Bank oF Nova Scotia. I know evet"Y one oF Lhum, Ml". Speakel". and 1 knotAI holAJ rnany have been tut"ned dot.un, nol: because DR.

KITCHEN : (Inaudible) . Ml~. RIDEOUf : I do I< notAl that . DR. KITCHFN: I do not . -- MR . IUDEOUf : You do not knotAI thal:. No. 1.~ 1 ) Wel1. the R29

Minister should know that. the gua1nantor. DR. KITCHEN: He is I know what has been approved. MR. RIDEOUT: They are being turned down because the Fisheries Loan Board has sent th1:1 signal to the Bank on behalf of the Government that we want to take people out of the indus try. That is why they are being turned d otAJn. AN HON . MEMBER: (Inaudible) the way you see it (inaudible). MR. RIDEOUT: No? It is fact. Has the Minister sat down with the Bankers Association since he became Minister and talked to them about upping the aggregate guarantee? Does the Minister know how the program works?

Do you know how thf:~ program war k s? . The Minis tel", therefo1ne, if he knows ~1ow the pr·ogram works, knows that the banks have reached the limit of their aggregate. The Min:ister knows that, does he? And he knows the banks arE! wor-riE!d bE! cause they have reached the J.oirnit of the aggregatE! and, therefore, it is now incumbent on the Government, if they want t.o send a signal that they tJJant to finance ITIOJne harvesting capacity, to up the aggregate. So, has the Ministel'' done that, sat down with thE· bankers and worked out the deal to up the aggregate for the loan guarantees to the chartered banks?

AN HON . MEMBER : (Inauclib1e) . MR. IUDEOUT : He ha s not done that. He Sat :. d OlAJn IAii. ~~ h the L30 DE!CE•ITtbr:!l" 1, 1989 has not Banker·s Vo] XLI As sociation. RE!a1ly, there is only one bank to sit dotAJn IAJith. Because ninety-odd per cent of it, as I said, is through the Bank of Nova Scotia anyway, there is only one bank to sit down with. If the Bank of Nova Scotia agi"E!eS, you have no wor·ries about the Bank of Montreal or the Royal Bank, because they are minor pJ.ayers in this particular program, irnpol" tant. players but minor compared to l~he Bank of Nova Scotia.

So if you get the Bank of Nova Scotia's agreement, the fishermen are o.kay . But that is not happen .ing, Mr. Speaker. And what the bankers are te1ling me, and lAJhat l:he bankers are telling their Branch Managers in rural Newfoundland, is that it is their reading, it is their clear understanding from this Government that this Government does not want to financr:' any mor'E! capacity in thE~ fishery. That is what the chief executives down in Scotia Square are teJ.ling their branch ITianagers in Flot~.Jers Cove, that is lAJhat thE!Y are telling thc.;!iln branch manage1ns in St.

Anthony, that is lAthat. they are telling tht::!ir bran ch rnanagers . in Baie Ve1nte, tha t the lAJOI "d Fro1n this Government is that the Government does not want to finance any more capacity 'in t.h1:• fishery, except ~ not in the 45 - ')5 Foot category ... _ exCE·p ·t any l:hing up ar·ound 64 · Feet 1.1. inches . The Governrnf:~nt is inl~eresl~~:od in that., and that is the J.oans that the Minister has signE!d. fhe Minis l:.er ha s not signed a loan guarante e For· a 45 footer sinu~ hE! became Minis tel". AN HON. MEMBER: What? Ml~. RIDEOU T: He nas for a bE!CC:ltriE!

No . 'l 5 not signed 45 foo t Min iste r, a J.o an vessel and the gu arantee since he Minist er 1no

knows that. Now he has signed a dozen or so for 64-, lls, because the Government wants to take people from the inshore fishery and pu ·t them on the Virgin Rocks, and that, Mr. Speaker, has been articulated to the Bank of Nova Scotia, in particular. AN HON. MEMBER: Is this the middle distance fleet you are talking about now? MR. RIDEOUT : No, no. There is nothing wrong with the mid-distance fleet, Mr. Speaker . Not a thing. Even the Member from Port de Grave will admit that, outside the curtain. I mean, what t..uould St. Anthony do without the middle distance boats these days?

They were dedicated for· resource short plants. Is there something wrong with that? AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible) . MR. RIDEOUT: Nothing wrong with that! AN HON. MEMBER: I am just wondering if that was (inaudible). MR. IUDEOUT : ThE! Min is tetn knows what they were dedicated for. He is playing the devil 1 s advocate as usual, but l1e knows. MR. FUREY : You are not ca11ing mE! (inaudible) are you? MR. RIDEOUT: No, I sc\id the devil 1 s r.ldvocate . That is worse than being the devil . If you bring back 200,000 pounds of turbot from 2GH and put it into St. Anthony, the Minister is against that. IF you bring it L3l.

DecernbE!r :1., 1989 Vol Xl...l back and put it into TtAJi1linga ·te, the Minister is against that., as Minister of Developtm~nt. You do not want those jobs. MR. FUREY : (Inaudible) (inaudible) . agrees l~li th me MR. RIDEOUT : Yes, I am sure he does . But I just. told the M:i.nistetn of Finance, Mr. Speaker, IAJhat has happened with the Fisheries Loan Board and those bank loan guarantees .

The Government has sent. a clear signal through the Minister of Fished.es, aJ.thouqh the Minister of Finance signs t.he guarantees, but through the Minister of Fisheries c.'lnd l:he MinistE!r 1 s Department thetne has been a clr,,ar signal SE:'nt to UtE! banking comrnuni.ty in t.h:i.s Ptnov:i.nc':' that there is only a CE!rt.a'in category of vessels that this Government is tAJilling to finance, and they are not the 4-S -.. 55 f'oo t: category, l:hey are the big onE!S, 64 feet 1 J. inches.

You cannot go over that, you see, becausE~ if you go over 64- feet 11 inchE•s, you arE! t h e n i n t h e o f F s h o r e c a l: E! rJ o I" y <H1 d you have to have a permit from 0"l: t awa to go o u t and Fish . But as long as you stay 64 reel 11 inches, you are okay, you can f:i.sh out of the inshore allolAJi:H1CE!. They call them 64, lls, but I think you can act.ur.1lJ.y go t.o 6'1 feet 11.999 inches i:'lS long as it :i.s not 65 fE!et; as :Long as H : is that teensy -weensy bit below 65 feet, you are okay. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR . RIDEOUT : Well, you know, Port de Graue was l: h E! Me In I:H:!

In F 0 In hE!InE•. ThE:! hon. gentlE·rnan lAJd S not here, but I No. 11.5 rBJ.

remember the gentleman from Port de Graue telling us a few years ago about the fellow who had to cut an inch or so off of the stem, because when they measured her from the counter to the top of the stem, she was an inch or so over 65 feet. So he got her under 65 feet by chopping an inch or so off of the stem of the boat. Now, when we brought in the Sjovaer from Norway, the middle distance boat, in order to beat the Canadian customs, we had to enlarge on the stem, so it depends on what you are talking about . So, Mr. Speaker, this is a major piece of legislation.

There is major direction of Government policy embodied in this legislation . And what I am scared of, Mr. Speaker, and what I am hearing from the fishermen of this Province, is that the MinistE!r is sending the wrong signals; he is sending the wrong signals to the banking community, he is sending the wrong signals to the Executive of the Fisheries Loan Board. Mr. Speaker, the Minister put in place a Fishing Industry Advisory Council; it had its first meeting one day this week, I believe, a very noble eFfort, and I applaud the Minister for it. Excellent move. But do you know, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister touts that Council as representing the fishing industry of Newfoundland and Labrador? The fishery .in its totality is· represented by that Council, so says the Minister. Now is it not passing strange that l:hE!rt:! is not a representative of the Canadian Sealers Association on that Council? Is it not passing strange? Does the seal live on the land? Is it a fish? Does it eat fish? Does it destroy fish? Is it part of the Fishing industry? L32 DecE!ITtbet" 1, :1.989 Vol XU MR. WARREN : Nobody from the North Coast of Labrador . MR.

RIDEOUT : Nobody from the North Coast of Labrador on the Council, and the Minister goes around touting this - MR. W. CARTER: What about Bill (Inaudible)? MR. RIDEOUT: A very fine Torngat Co-op, with, is it? gentleman. The I believe he is The Minis tr:!r Council from Association. has the nobody on that Canad:lan ~>ealetns MR. W. CARTER : (InaudibJ.e) . MR. RIDEOUT: W h y d i d t h e M i n i s t e I" no t p u t l: h em on? MR . W. CARTER: Why did you not appoin L thE! Board when you were Minister? MR. RIDEOUT: I had your Fishing Indus l:ry Advisory Board .

M ~_:_ __ ~_:._£1l_fi_lg : That was some good too, was it not? Ml~ . RIDEOUT: ·~Te·1·1:·-~·-y-c;u·· --5 e t i t. u p . MR. W. CARTER: I did not set it up . MR. RIDEOUT: The Minister brought in the Act in 1975. MR . W. CARTER: :r -·a~ :n·~;-n(Te-c:i- --t Fi'e A c t I b u t ( i n a u d :i b J (' ) . MR. RIDEOUT: No. 45 1n2

No. you brought in the Act . MR. W. CARTER: I inherited that Act . MR. RIDEOUT: No. you brought in the Act. In 1975 the Minister brought in the Act. ·~B .. . W .. CA RT~.B.: (Inaudible) I abolished it. MR. RIDEOUT: Right. And that is what I told the Minister the other day when he abolis~ed it. He brought it in and he abolished it. That was the Fishing Industry Advisory Board . MR. W. CARTER: I did not bring in that Board. MR. RIDEOUT: The Minister brought in the Act . MR. W. CARTER : I did not . MS VERGE: Who do you think brought it in? MR. RIDEOUT: You brought in the Act. MR. W. CARTER: No. (Inaudible) . MR.

RIDEOUT: No, no. The Minister brought in the original act. My God! I am after telling the Minister. I thought he would have checked it out by now. I tell you why I know the Minister brought it in, because when the Minister talked to me about abolishing it - MR. W. CARTER: (Inaudible) ·when I became Minister· . MR . RIDEOUT: No. it was not . L33 DE!CBITibE:•I" 1. 1989 Vol XLI MR. W. CARTER : It was. MR. RIDEOUT: It came:~ into existencE:' afte1n the 1973 strike. MR. W. CARTER: I did not become Minister until 1975. MR. RIDEOUT: Right. And that is lAJhen you brought in the Act.

It IA.Jas pa1nt of the deal to settlE! thE! strike, that a Fishing Industry Advisory Board would be set up. MR . W. CARTER : No. You are wrong. MR. RIDEOUT: No. And I know why I am not wrong. Because when the Minis [·:.,:!r was aftE!In rne to abol-ish it I had i·t checked out. and I 1nerne1nbc~r saying to the MinistE•r' in the House, 'What do you wan l: rne to do. abolish your Act?' Right? MR. W. CARTER: (Inaudible). MR. FUREY: You were being thE• dev:i.l's advocate then. MR. RIDEOUT : Yes. I t.uas being LhE! devoi.1' s advocate, YE!S. It rnight bE! so, but I am 99 .9 per cent certain. MR. W.

CARTER : I know you are wrong . MR. RIDEOUT: I have be .en knotA.Jn Lo b1C! before, and I do not admil:ting when I am wrong, Speaker. My rE!search shotAJS wrong mind Mr . that A eel long into the Minister brought in the and he abolished the act. As as he brought thosl'! functions No. 4-5 I~ 3 3

this Department - I said, quite frankly, I was proposing to do thE~ same thing, to bring those functtons into the Department. I think that was the right and proper way to go. MR. W. CARTER: The Board was established in 1974. MR. RIDEOUT: In 1975 . MR. W. CARTER: No, 1974. MR .. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, when I sit down I have to run out and get l:he revised Statues of Newfoundland and look at them. Then I will have to come back and tell the Minister in Third Reading. When they get into Committee of the Whole on this bill, I tAJi11 have to have the Act in front of me. I suppose.

That is the only way to do it. have the Act in front of me, because the Minister is not a believer. I can see he is not a believer. He is not a believer in the fishing industry. As much as he tries to portray that he is a believer, he is not. He is a believer in a 10,000 person professional fishery. He is a believer· in that, Mr. Speaker. but the peoplE~ out thet~e are getting the message. Our office is starting to be flooded with letters and phone calls. There are bags of mail, Mr. Speaker, coming in about what the Minister is trying to do to the fishery.

If the Minister ever saw a riot in 1~u1~a1 Newfoundland. h~~ is going to have one on his hands when his Prernie r and 0 ll:.awa announce their plan. He is going to havE:' one on his hands then, because h~~ is going lo have 12,000 or 14,000 part--l:irnr:' fishE:1rl'nE!n beating on his L34 December 1. 1989 Uo] XLI door, he is going to have plant tAJorkers beating on his door. h(:~ is going to hcwe fishet"rnen tAJho cannot get loans through the Fisheries Loan Board beating on his door. The Minis t e r • M r . S p e. a k e r • t s going to have the Mernber for St.

John 1 s South beating on h-.is doot~ tAJhen NatSea announces the c1osure of the Southside plant. AN HON. MEMBER: You are some glad you are over there and not over here. MR. RIDEOUT: Oh, does the member not know that yet? AN HON. MEMBER: The Member for St . and the Mernber for and Eagle River. AN HON. MEMBER: John 1 s Harbour (Inaudible) already got (inaudible) . MR. RIDEOUT: South Gt~ace a Is that right? They are still clinging to hope. But l-:he Mj n:i_ster knolAJS. The M:i.nj ster' has not told the Member. National St~a ha~ been down and br:i.efed the Minister. Is t:h1:1 lrl(!lfl~.H'!I'' not atJJat~e of that?

NatSea has been down and brief1=:!d the M·inist .E~ r . FPI has been :i.n and bri(!fed thE! M'.inist.E•t~. I have said it het"l~ -.in Qu1:~stion Per-iod. and gentlemen on Uw othet" sid1:' are hot.dling at rne lAJhen I say it, but I know for a fact that National Sea has been down and told the Minister what will happen under a TAC o·f 235,000 tons, tAJhat will happen under a TAC of 190,000 t o n s • tAl h a l: tAri 11 h a p p e n u n d e I'' a 1-A c of 125,000 tons. I knolAJ Vic Youn<:J has been in and told the Minis l:.e r that.

And when you ask those questions in this House, l:hE~n you arE:1 some holAJ or another' accused of playing politics. Il:. is not r'ighL No . 45 r\ 3 '1

for the Opposition to question those matters, and it. is obvious, Mr. Speaker, from listening to my friend from St. John 1 s South, that the Minister has not even told his backbenchers what those scenarios are. Well, we know. Come over after I take my place and I wi1l te1l the hon. gentlemen what National Sea told the Government, and I will tell the hon. g~1ntleman what FPI has told the Government. I have good sources.

You do not be Minister of Fisheries for four and a half yr:1ars, despite the Premier's assertions of having a brother in certain places, and not have contacts in the indus try, and not have contacts in OttaiJ,Ja, and not have contacts in Newfoundland, and not have contacts in the Union. Or you might even have contacts in the Government caucus. You might even be wearing contact lenses. But, Mr . Speaker, you have those contacts and one of those days - MR. HOGAN : (Inaudible) . MR. RIDEOUT : No. 0 The hon. Member For Placentia is not going to be here long enough, I do not think.

But if you are here long enough to develop those little connections, they serve you in good stead, Ml". Speaker. I rt:1member the Fo1"rner Member for Fortune - Hermitage, Roger Simmons, and the Fol"l'ner Member for Bell Island, Mr. NE!ai"Y, t.E!l'.ling us about the plain brown envelopes that woul.d cornE! undE:'r the".i.r door lAJhen they wer(~' in Opposition. Well, Ml". Speai<E!r, the samE:! thing is happening again. The plain brotAm envelopr:'s -·- no money -·· but us Dec~;:1mber 1, 1989 Vol XLI a lot of infor·mation on the inside. No Christmas gifts, no 91"aft and COI"rupt.ion, but a lot of information.

Even Orders in Council, Mr. Speaker, can tul"n up in the Opposition Office in a plain brown envelope. AN HON. MEMBER: I do not believe that. MR. RIDEOUT: Well, you had better bE!1:iE!Ve it. Ask th1:1 Minister oF Works, Services and Transpor·tation. And I do not have a brother in eVE!I"Y DepartmE:1nt. No, I do .not. But those plain brown envelopes have a lAJay of tu1"ning up under our door and you can do what you like. Last June, the Pl"eiTrier t~o.JC1S so fanatical and paranoid he was talking about moles in the Gover·nment.

NotAl, you can go around looking For moles aLl you like, ther'E! are 3,500 rnoles oul: there, Mr. Speaker, wha t ever the employment of the Civil Se~vice is . You cannot seal it oFf, you cannot close it off. Yes, I lAJould say to my ft·:iend frorn St. John's Soul:h, tJJC::1 hdve good contacts. The Minister has been told what I am telling l:he hon. gentleman, but he has not l.:olcl you. So I tAJill b:.ll you, come over and have a coffee in the cornrnon l"oorn and I ikli11 l:ell you what has been told to the Minister.

And I wi11 te11 you what the Minister has taken to Cabinet as part of the proposed restructuring of the Newfoundland fishery. I wil1 te l l you that, sorne of wh -.i ch I have a11"E:'acly to1cl the House, Mr. Speaker. But I can give the hon. gen t. ll::'lllan the FinE:. det:a:i .J.s oF lAJhat Lhe NewFound1and Cabinet hav~O! appr·oved in Pl"inciple, not f'r'orn Ot L.atAJa No. t~S 1ns

sources, but from Newfoundland sources . Because you see, Mr. Speaker, here is where it all falls down. fhey have consulted with the Newfoundland industry, they have consulted with the Fishermen's Union, a fair number of people in the bureaucracy know, and out of all of that you cannot keep a secret. It is impossible. So, there is no good in going looking for moles or bt~others or sisters or mothers-in-law, you have told too many. Too many people know, and out of all of that the Opposition knows. And, therefore, Mr. Speaker, what we have said in this House is a fact and the han. gentleman from St.

Jol)n's South may as well know it is Fact. He has bad news coming, unfortunately, and it is bad news for Newfoundland and Labrador. AN HON. MEMBER : (Inaudible). MR. RIDEOUT : No, if the TAC is anything under 235. MR. MURPHY: If it under 235? MR. RIDEOUT: Yes, if it is under 235 . The general consensus in the indus try is that it wt11 be 190. Now, I wouJ.d suspect that it is going to be less than 190. I would not be a bit surprised if it is less than 190, but it is certainJ.y going to be less than 235. So, therefore, Mr.

Speaker, there is a lot of bad net.us on the horizon, a lot oF bad net.us embodied in this little am e n d rn e n t . r h i s l i l:. l: 1 e am e n d rn e n t is bad netAJS for the Fishermen of Nr:~wfoundland and Labr·ador. rhe Minister can shake his head all he 1..36 December 1, 1989 Vol XI...I likes, Mr. Speaker . There is bad net.us for the financ-ing activi l:ies of the Loan Board, bad, bad netAJS! Talk to any of the ba.nks and they v.Jill telJ. you. Then~ is bad, bc:J.cl news, Mr .

Speaker, For the management of the Loan Boar ·d, with the Chairman of the Loan Board now being an Assistant Deputy Minister in the Department of Fisheries, directly under the thumb of the Minister to carry out the Minister's wishes, particularly a Minister whose wishes we have seen cartnied out before in t:E!l"rns of the Fisheries Loan Board. MR. K. AYLWARD : Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER : The han. the ME!ITibe r for Stephenville . MR. WARREN: Thank you very much, Mr. Spt=:'akr:'r. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have recognized the hon . Member Fo~ Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . LhE!

I just want a couple of minutes in this debate on the Bill brought forward by the Minister of Fisheries. It is int.e1nest.ing t.o lisl:un l:.o l:.hE! Leader of the Opposition and to the Opposition l:alk about all t-.\'11?. problems in the Fishery. The onJ.y ptnobl<::'m I have is I have not buen abJe to FigurE· out. yet hotAJ tAlE! haVE! made such a mess oF it in t:he seven or eight month s we have been here. I real.ly cannot unclersl:and that. I do not knot.~J jf H. j_s possible. If you tr·iecl hat"d, M1~ . SpE!akE!r, I do not. knotAJ :i.F you No . 4-5 1n6

could make the mess of it that they describe, in that s hart period of time. I think it wouJ.cl be practically impossible to do so. There are major problems in the fishery, Mr. Speaker, major problems all over the Province. There have been for quite some time. An .d there are no easy answers, no easy process, no simplified anst.uer to -the whole thing, but it is going to take dealing t.uith '.it and going at it seriously to try to resolve the matter. But to just shove it over to the Provincial Department of Fisheries and say, 'Well, you are responsible for the whoJ.e thing,' I think is somewhat unfair.

I mean, we will accept sam~~ responsibility as the Provincial Government, but I think, to the. extent it has been described by the Leadet" of the Opposition, there is a little bit of hyperbole involved in his description. I want to just touch on a couple of things basically, Mr. Speaker, one concerning the Loan Board. I have, for two years, been attempting to get a fibreglass boat bui1der. He has b~~en interested in coming into StephenuilJ.e, moving over from Nova Scot.ia, and he produces boats anywhere from 35 or 40 feet to 60--odd, anywhere from the 4-0 foo ·t to 55 foot range, fibreglass boats.

His boat is a very good boat and has interes led a number of Newfoundland Fishermen. At this time, it interests a great number oF Newfoundland fi she t"me n. He has been two years in the pl"ocess of trying to tnoue over and we are still tryj ng to wot"k out something to see if we can get him over here. But I do not find that the friction is coming from the Fisheries Loan Board in Net.ufoundland, what I find is l·:hat L.37 Decernbr:'r J., 1989 Vo1 XI...I it is coming from ACOA, Mt".

Speaker, which absolutely amazes me ..... well, not l"ea11y, I suppoSE!, because they have not bE:~en exactly that co-operative in our region of Bay St. George, and it is most unfortunate. But it is not the Fisheries Loan Board that '.is holding up this fibreglass boat building industry, which could be?. established in Stephenville. This boat builder built a boat for a Newfoundland fisherman last year with the approval of Lhe Prouint'.ial Government, over in Nova Scotia, using NE!lAJfoundland Fisheries Loan Board money, the only boat buiJ.det" E!VE!r to clo l-:hat outside this Province.

The r·~~ason he did that was that there wa s nobody building \:hose l~ypes of boats in this Province and he lAJas allowed to do that for a NelAJfoundJ.and fisherman, and the f.isher·rnan went ov<:'r and lAJas able to get his boat from Nova Scotia. So, t.his Nova Scot:La boat buildE!r wants to rnoue to NewfoundJ.and to build boats over here. HE:' has a big market. He ha s inclontif iecl a nurnber of fishel"tnen t.uho are VE!I"Y interested .

But the problem he has is not the Fisheries loan Board, and it is not the Newfoundland Department of Fisheries or the Newfoundland Government, it is thcO! fl':!dE!ral ACOA peopJ.e who ar~~ saying, 'WE:!J.J., lAJE:! are not sure about this and we are not surE! about that, and lAH :• lAri.11 have to have another market study,' and so on and so Forth. So I think certain people in ACOA, inuolvE~d with the f'ishet":ies stele, have a certain agenda which [ think maybe is to down si ze lhe fishery.

But I think we should lay sornE• of Lhe rE•spon ~d boi.] i ty whE!t"e the responsibility should r'E:'St, and that is a pt"oblern . I arn sure l:he Federal CoVE!I~nrnenl~ is No. ll 5 R3'/

telling ACOA, 'Lay oFf on giving out loans to boat builders,' or 'Lay off on g:i.v'.ing loans to anything related to the fishery right now.'. That is the las l: thing we should be doing. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaud'.ible) the fisheries . MR. K. AYLWARD: Oh, yes . AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) over here . MR. K. AYLWARD: Exactly . I mean, we want to see the fishery get better. We do not want to see it gE!t worse, we want to SE!e it get bE!tter. We want to see everybody involved. But we are not the culprits here, Mr. Speaker.

We are trying l:o resolve the problem, and we should put the blame whe1ne it lies. fhe Federal Government, through its federa1 DFO and mismanagement and its instructions to ACOA right now, are not permitting an expansion of other secondary industries in the fishing industry, which could help expand the base of the fishing industry in this Province. I have experienced a wicked amount of frustration OVE!r thE! last tiAJO years in trying to get Ulis legitimate boat builder into Newfoundland. It is most unfortunate that right now everything is being supported by the Province and by the Loan Board.

ACOA is down there saying, 'WeJ.l, we are not sure what we are going to do, tAle do not know if hE! has a rnarb:'t,' and hE! has a Jist of about Fifteen to twenty fishermen who want to get boats built . He would be building For thE! next LhreE! years in a row, but Lhey a1n1:~ not sure he has a rnarket . It poisons me, to tell L38 December 1, 1989 Vo1 XU you the truth , when we can have another secondary industry in this P1novince and be I?.Xpanding it.

You know, you do not SE!t. up ten boat builders when thE!re is on1y r·oom for fiVE!, but whE!n there is roorn for five and you only have one or two, then you expand the industry. I think that ACOA should heed the ca11s of th:i.s Province and the calls of t~he needs of this Province when it comes to the fishing industry. So it is not the Loan Board, I do not ·think, that. is the probJ.ern, Mr. SpE!akE!r. This Provincial Government is trying to 1nakE! sorne changes and we are going Lo go through those changes. We are going to rnake a scattE•recl mistakE! here and there, but w12:~ arc l:ry-lng to work it out.

One of thE! othE!I~ things I wan t to touch on whilE! I arn at. l:hts, Mr·. Speaker, is the over-the -side sales in the last couple of years in the Bay St. Geo1nge -·· Port au Port Peninsula area. Russian traJAJlers have been in thr:~ Bay St.. George area and it has been like a ·city on the waLel" !Adth the lights, the fishing boal:s, l:he big trawJ.ers and factory Freezer trawlers out there. AN HON. MEMB ~ R : Side by each. MR. K. AYLWARD : And they are sid1::> by each, as tlwy say, sidE• by N:l.ch. · They arE! out~ there. There tAJere about l:hree of thE!ITI J.ast Spring. ThE~y <H'E! just cleaning her, Mr.

Speaker, the herring stocks in Bay St. George. r am calling the D~O p eo p 1 E! - t hi s was 1 as t y E! a I" and the year before and they are saying that Uds is suq>J.us stock, underutilized species that are si.t.ting there' that tAle tAr.i1J give lo No. 4.5 IDS

the Russians because our fishermen do not catch that stock. We have one fish plant in Stephe nvi 1le now l:hat is going into receiVE!rship, probably it has gone. We have another one in Piccadilly, and we do not know what is going to happen to that. We have all this fish around us and yet the Russians are there getting an over-the-side sales deal, processing the fish right out in the bay and then sending it atJJay. We are getting no benefit from that at all.

So I have a problem with that part of the fishing industry, with that being allowed to happen, not seeing the benefit of that fish going to our shorE! plants in Bay St. George and in Western NewfoundJ.and. I th:ink there is a probl1':!m. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) catch it . MR. K. AYLWARD: They could catch it. can catch it. AN HON. MEMBER : Yes, they You are not set up for it. MR. K. AYLWARD: We 11, tJJe did not g E! t set up for it. If the fish is the!re .and it is surplus stock and we can give it to another market, I arn all for it. That is fine . I have no problem with that. It j_s hard to explain to Bay St.

George resid~::~nts, when you seE! those boats out there taking a1l that stock and nobody ·monitoring it. I mean, hardly anybody is monitoring uJhat they are doing out therE!. I asi<E!d DFO about it and they said 1 0h, we send out somebody one~:· in a while 1 • I 1nean, they have cleaned out stocks elsewhere in 1..39 DeCE!mber 1, 1989 Vol XLI this ProvinCE!. I th'ink uJe should be monitoring what is going on. AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). M R . K . A Y LWA R D ; Yes, some were, but not very much . He could hardly get any of it last year. But one of the suggestions that have been made on that, Mr.

Speaker, is that a tr'igger committee which has been set up for the Newfoundland reg'ion be expanded for all of NE!Wfoundland. Because right now thE• WE!S t. Coast is included in the Gulf region, and basically we have no say in what DFO does tAii ·th a1locations of over--the ---side sales and E•VE!ryth:inq else.

Whereas ovr::'r hE!re on l:his side of thE! Provtnce we do, and uJe can have some imput. MR. R. AYLWARD: Your Premier does not wanl:. any say in it. MR. K. AYLWARD: Hold on now. Oh, yes we do. WE! have a proposal for a Canada N e wf o u n d l a n d F i s h e r i 1:;! s B o a r cl tAl h "i c h would see us havE! input :i.nto a11 kinds of decisions. An E•xu <llf:!nt sugqestion mady by this GovernmE:~nt, by the tAiay, and I arn sur'E! that we w'.l.11 SE!e it comr:! to fruition . That is not . a probl1 :'1n there.

Now tAle arE• try:ing Lo get. some action on l:hat to see ir~ that: can happE!n, but ·that js an identified problem and that affects the fishery in Bay St. Geo1nge, Port au Port, and i.l: affects the fish'ing industry and it aFfects l:he Fishr::'rmen. Wl·l,:'n it cornf:•s to the FishEd.r:!SY Loan Board activity and trying to stilflul<::tte the industry and give out: loans, it also affects that. No. 4-5 1~3 9

I think, Ml". Speaker, that is an identified problem that we have to deal with, one that has beE!n left tAiith us. Again it is one that I do not think was seriously dE:>alt with before, but it has to be dealt with now, and I hope to see something come out of it t.uhich is positive. On the Fisheries Loan Board side, as you said, Mr. Speaker, OUI" Fisheries Loan Board is making some adjustments but I do not think it is the Fisheries Loan Board that is at fault , nor l:he Provincial GovernmE:~nt.

It is the Federal Government who certainly mismanaged the resource and they have to take almost all of the blame, as far as I am concerned. But if we can get more input in ·to thE:~ process, which we haVE:' asked to do, a_nd get part of that decision-makihg process through a board of management which would be a joint boar·d , I think WE! lAJould see some changes and a positive effect. I do not think tAle should be blamed, Mr . . Speaker, for all the probh!l 'ns that exist in the fishing industry . I mer-1n, we w~iJ.l accept our share of the blame, but other people should do the same . Thank you, Mr . Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Member for Torngat Mountains. MR . WARREN : Mr. Speaker, thank you very much. I would likE· to say a few lAJord s about this Bill and I begin by making a suggestion to the Minister, since we are on the Fisherie s Loan Boar·d, and mal<(! a recommendation For change to it. I s p! :'d k on behalf of the L.40 DecembE·r 1, 1989 Vol XLI fishE!rpE!OplE! in Davis InJ.et, l:hE! Ind"ian population of Davis InlE!t. In fact, this last nurnber oF YE:'at" S there have only beE!n one or t.t.uo Indian families fishing. The probh'm, Mr.

Speaker·, is that they cannot qualify for a loan through the Fisheries loan Board because of their income. The Band Council recently suggested t.hat t.uher ·e they have some funds under thE! Federal/Pt~ovind .al Native p,~oplE!' s AgrE:~ement, they wish to submit an application to the Minister's Department to purchase up l:.o six or eight - the Indian fishing boat is a freighter canoe. It is not an ordinary speed boat, which most Labrador fisherrnE!n use, it is a ·Freighter canoe. Each one of those boats would probably cost anywhere from $1,500 to $2,500, depE!nding on whr:~re you buy them.

So they were going to approach the Loan Board with a co mbined appl.icat.ion ft"orn the Band Council 1~.0 pUI"ChasC:~ those frEd .ghtE•l"S SO that they will involve a number of the Indian fishermen in Fishing, in particulat", char and salmon. I think, Mr.

Speaker, the area tAJi.l:.hin Davis Inlet, a radius of 1.0 m:iles of the Davis Inlet., :Ls one oF the better char and Fishing arE!aS left in L.abradot", due to l:he fa c t - p r' o b ably i t IAJCl s a b l ~" s sing in disguise ·- that in the 1as l: LE!n years there t.uere very fetJJ Indi<:~ns fishing in this area, and consequently the stock did rebtri lei substantially.

I understand this is a prime area, and iF the B<:1nd Council has shown the Foresight and l:he :init.iat.iVl:' to 1nake this I< in d oF r· e quest , I IAJO u 1 cl s u g q E:' s t to the Minister that he clo everything in his power to seriously consider the request. Now, Mr. other· the to. I No. '~:> Speaker, let: me go to sections I wish to refer am interested that the R 'l-0

Member for Eagle River had - AN HON. MEMBER: 'i\iaw·:·-t;·-e-··-s e riST5 1 e . MR. WARREN: Yes, I am going to be sensible. The Member for Eagle River has reminded the Minister of Fisheries to make a comment, and I have no doubt it will be a good comment.

Now, the Member from Eagle lhver, in the past - and I think he still believes in this, and this is not critizism' in anyway -- has said, and I think it t..vas only this past summer, that he is concerned - I am too, by the way - tha ·t there are so many large vessels from the Island portion of the Province going up to Labrador every year to fish extensively, and the fisherpersons in those areas who cannot afford to have la1nge boats, come of f with the short end of the stick. And I think the hon. gentleman has said this quite fairly. Now, I also agree with this .

We can talk about the Loan Board since whenever it was in USE! .. The Loan board, to mE:!, does not · add1ness the fisherman on an equal basis compared to their income, compared to the tAJay and geography of their living. And I t..vould say to the Minister that the fishermen in Nain or the fishermen in Pins en t 1 s Arm, their financi .al capabilities in a lot of cases are not as adequate as other fishermen on the Island pol''tion. of the Province.

I think you have to 1ook at l .. he ser-iousness of those Fishennen t..vho u.1an ·t l:.o get into largE·r boats, but who do not have the financial u.JhE!rE•wit.hal1 to do so. I say to the Minister o'f-- Fisheries l:hat he should seriously look at the applications coming out of the Labrador' coast, and rE! cognize u.Jha t L41 Dec1:!mbr:!r 1, 1989 Vol XLI the Minister said a couple of days ago, and what: hr,, said YE!SlE!rclay in the Late Show: rhose n~;!alnes l: to thE! resourCE! should bE:' thE! fii''St l:o benefit. But those nearest to the resource cannot benefit if they are curtailed