role="main" class="main-container container js-quickedit-main-content" id="main-content">

October 23, 1989

34th Parliament, 2nd Session

< Previous sitting day

Next sitting day >

Hansard Transcripts

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

HOSPITAL SERVICES

COMMUNITY COLLEGE TEACHERS’ LABOUR DISPUTE

PORTRAIT OF WILLIAM DAVIS

BRAMPTON SMALL BUSINESS WEEK

PORTABLE RAILWAY TIE EXTRACTOR AND INSERTER

NATIONAL SMALL BUSINESS WEEK

PASSENGER RAIL SERVICES

CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES

DEINSTITUTIONALIZATION

DAIRY INDUSTRY

VISITORS

ANNIVERSARY OF HUNGARIAN REVOLUTION

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

TORT REFORM

RESPONSES

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

TORT REFORM

ORAL QUESTIONS

CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES

CARDIOVASCULAR CARE

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

CARDIOVASCULAR CARE

NATIVE LAND CLAIM

DEINSTITUTIONALIZATION

WATER QUALITY

NATIVE LAND CLAIM

LOAN TO TENANTS’ GROUP

RENT REGULATION OF RETIREMENT HOMES

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

MUNICIPAL ZONING BYLAWS

PROPERTY ASSESSMENT

MOTION

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

INSURANCE STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1989

COURTS OF JUSTICE AMENDMENT ACT, 1989

ORDERS OF THE DAY

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1989 (CONTINUED)

INTRODUCTION OF BILL

EVIDENCE AMENDMENT ACT, 1989

ORDERS OF THE DAY

EMPLOYER HEALTH TAX ACT, 1989

The House met at 1330.

Prayers.

MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS

HOSPITAL SERVICES

Mr Mackenzie: It is apparent over the last two weeks that the promise made by the Minister of Health (Mrs Caplan) in June 1989 to establish critical care hotlines for physicians is not being kept. Each region of the province was to have a network operating this year, yet doctors around the province have heard nothing since the minister’s premature announcement.

Even in areas where such an integrated trauma or critical care hotline has been fully developed, officials associated with setting up such a hot line find themselves waiting for the go-ahead from the Ministry of Health. The hotline I am talking about is the REACH line that has been established in Hamilton. REACH stands for the Regional Enquiry and Access to on-Call Health professionals, which will give doctors from Oakville to Niagara immediate, round-the-clock access to 250 medical specialists in Hamilton hospitals. Yet the hotline remains inoperative as it awaits ministerial approval.

The case of the REACH hotline is just another example of the Minister of Health’s total inability to deal effectively with the needs of critically ill patients in the province of Ontario.

COMMUNITY COLLEGE TEACHERS’ LABOUR DISPUTE

Mr Jackson: Last Wednesday. 8,800 college teachers, librarians and counsellors went out on strike, interrupting classes for some 110,000 community college students. The Minister of Education (Mr Conway) has stated that the government will not be intervening in this dispute. This position counters statements made by the Premier (Mr Peterson) back in 1984 when he was Leader of the Opposition. At that time, he repeatedly called on the Minister of Education to resolve that matter and intervene in the strike.

The minister has justified his position by saying there can be no doubt that both parties “have it within their power to resolve this at the table.” But given the fact that there are no meetings scheduled for two weeks, how can the minister expect the two sides to resolve this dispute? Meanwhile, he is jeopardizing the academic careers of 110,000 students.

Rather than sitting on its hands, the government should take a direct role in getting the two sides back together. This simple solution will help bring about a quick and reasonable settlement so that students can get back to the classroom as quickly as possible. Once again, the Liberals are demonstrating their lack of leadership on this important issue in our province. It brings into question their commitment to Ontario’s community colleges and the students they serve.

PORTRAIT OF WILLIAM DAVIS

BRAMPTON SMALL BUSINESS WEEK

Mr Callahan: I am pleased to rise to join with the Premier (Mr Peterson) in congratulating my predecessor, the former Premier William Davis, and his family on the occasion of the formal unveiling of his portrait. It is a proud moment for Bill and his family and all citizens of Brampton to have his portrait take its rightful place on the walls of the Legislative Building among Ontario’s 17 previous premiers.

In addition to that, in the light of my predecessor mentioning Brampton at least three times on every occasion, I also want to take this time to congratulate all of the people in my community who have set up programs proclaiming Brampton Small Business Week. Small business, of course, is the backbone of this province, and specifically in Brampton some 5,545 businesses are in existence; 4,714 of those have under 20 employees, a significant contribution to the small business milieu. Some $2.75 billion are generated by these small businesses.

I want to congratulate the board of trade, all levels of government, all those people involved in making this a successful week.

PORTABLE RAILWAY TIE EXTRACTOR AND INSERTER

Mr Kormos: I want to share with this House the unveiling last week of a remarkable and innovative new product manufactured and indeed with its design source in Thorold, right in the heart of the Niagara Peninsula. Elio Pierobon and his son Paul Pierobon, a company called EPP Track Equipment Ltd, along with John Verhage of Hydraserv Ltd. unveiled to the public and the press its new portable tie extractor and inserter. Entirely Canadian-manufactured, it is designed to simplify the removal and insertion of both wood and concrete ties anywhere along the rail system without the need of holding up normal traffic.

The main feature of this unit is its portability. The unit can be transported to and from the work site in the back of a conventional pickup truck with an eight-foot box and it is equipped with carrying handles so that it can be moved across rough terrain without undue personnel injury.

What this does is sit on the track and then bulldoze the tie through any packed or loose substrata. The new tie is put into the space vacated by the old tie. This unit is capable of handling all sizes of ties, both standard and switch ties, on all conventional sizes of rails and it is capable of extracting or inserting 40 ties per hour. Already three people are employed in the manufacture; it is expected that six will be. It is a wonderful new product, and these people are to be congratulated.

NATIONAL SMALL BUSINESS WEEK

Mr Harris: This is National Small Business Week in Canada, but Ontario small business people should be wearing black armbands. In Ontario we should call it Small Business Memorial Week, because the Liberal government seems determined to put small business out of business. One small business spokesman said recently that Ontario is “rapidly becoming a bureaucrat’s paradise” and, I would add, a hell for entrepreneurs.

The proposed employer health tax is but the most recent example of this government’s hostility towards the men and women whose efforts and enterprise are responsible for the creation of more than 70 per cent of all net new jobs in this province. The Treasurer (Mr R. F. Nixon) implies that the EHT is no big deal for small businesses and will cost them less than five cents an hour at the minimum wage. Of course, if the Treasurer was not spending $4.7 million an hour, every hour of every day of the year, he would not need to soak small business with this new tax.

PASSENGER RAIL SERVICES

It is clearly evident that both the municipal and provincial levels of government will be affected by cuts to Via service, yet there was next to no consultation with these important community representatives prior to the Honourable Mr Bouchard’s announcement of several weeks ago.

Last week, the Minister of Transportation (Mr Wrye) held meetings with communities most affected by these cuts. I commend the minister for this initiative and for his support for a moratorium on implementation of Via cuts so that their full impact can be assessed and adjustments made in the context of a comprehensive transportation strategy which views passenger rail service as important to Canada’s future.

Prime Minister, the Via Rail fight is not over. I intend to continue my efforts to work closely with our community in pressing Ottawa to abandon this shortsighted policy. Canadians need their trains. Do not shortchange our future.

CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES

Mr Breaugh: Members will be aware probably that this morning at the Whitby Jail inmates were detained in their cells. This follows a pattern of problems that have occurred throughout the correctional system across the province of overcrowding. It follows hard on the heels of allegations made last weekend that at the Whitby Jail, as an example, 20 prisoners who were sentenced to serve weekend sentences were turned away simply because there was no room at the jail to accommodate them.

It is rumoured in the newspapers that this is part of the end result of a crackdown on drug usage and more jail sentences being handed out. Whatever is the root source, surely the government must recognize that this an intolerable situation. We are talking about the safety both of people who work as correctional officers in the jail system and of the volunteers who go in and work in the jails.

Whether or not this government chooses to provide other than institutionalization for people who are sentenced by the courts, surely the government must recognize that it is a mockery of the whole judicial system to put people through that process and, as the end result, have people turned loose on the streets not because we thought about it and designed some new program that is more effective, but simply because there was no room in the jail to accommodate the prisoners who the courts said should be there.

DEINSTITUTIONALIZATION

Mr Cousens: More has to be done if deinstitutionalization of our disabled citizens is to be successful. This government continues to be bigger on rhetoric than it is on action when it comes to all types of community-based services and health support.

This is no more apparent than in the case of Louis Kirou, a 19-year-old resident of a group home for disabled persons. Because he has reached the age of adulthood, he can no longer remain a resident of a children’s group home, but there are no adult places for him to go. Government officials, advocates for disabled persons and community care workers have been trying to find a home for Louis for about two years, but the search has been unsuccessful.

The waiting list for group homes is about two years long and may grow to seven years long if this government continues to use rhetoric instead of action to provide bricks and mortar for disabled persons. We on this side of the House think that it is high time that the government began to provide real community-based services rather than studying the possibility of expanding these services.

There are many ways we can solve these problems for people: work with the councils; work with the communities; invest in projects and programs that will help people. This government is high on talk and low on action.

DAIRY INDUSTRY

Mr Tatham: GATT negotiations: Did members ever hear the story Sam Slick told about selling his horse? It was a good-looking animal and fast, but as a young colt it had fallen through a bridge and ever after that horse would not cross a bridge. Sam sold the horse for big dollars and the new owner lost two buggies that the horse kicked to flinders when he refused to go over a bridge. That is one for Sam.

The dairy industry in the United States is attempting to break into the Canadian market through the use of the GATT panel ruling. The United States is able to protect its own dairy industry while trying to gain inroads in Ontario markets. Under the Canada-US free trade agreement, existing US law remains in place. The United States has a waiver from GATT which allows it to protect the dairy industry while Canada has no such waiver. The United States, in turn, is able to evoke its

section 22 waiver and not allow any imports of ice cream into the United States. How much are you asking for that horse, Sam?

VISITORS

The Speaker: That completes the allotted time for members’ statements.

I would like to ask all members of the assembly to recognize in the Speaker’s gallery a delegation from the United Kingdom. There are six members of Parliament in the delegation, and they are Marion Roe, MP, leader of the delegation; Cecil Franks, MP; Andrew Hargreaves, MP; Allen MacKay, MP, Austin Mitchell, MP, and Allan Roberts, MP. Also joining them is John Brown, the British consul general. Please join me in welcoming our guests in the gallery today.

ANNIVERSARY OF HUNGARIAN REVOLUTION

Mr B. Rae: On a point of order, Mr Speaker: I wonder if I might have the unanimous consent of the House to make a statement regarding the historic events in Budapest over the weekend.

The Speaker: Is there unanimous consent?

Agreed to.

Mr B. Rae: I thought the House might want the opportunity to reflect on the fact that today, which marks the 32nd anniversary of the uprising in Hungary, is also an occasion, this weekend, when thousands of people have been gathered in the central square in Budapest to commemorate and celebrate the proclamation of a new constitution and the celebration of a new constitution for the republic of Hungary, which marks, I think all of us would agree, a truly historic turn of events.

All of us in this House have made friends and associated and celebrated with Hungarians who came here in 1957 and who were made refugees by the tragic events of that time. They have made a remarkable contribution to our national life, as they have to the lives of many, many countries around the world.

One of the most fascinating features of the events over the weekend was the statement that was made at the time of the declaration of the republic, not only recognition of the historic tragedy of the events of 1957, but also a determination on the part of the Hungarian people to create a multiparty system, to create a true democracy, the ending of the Communist party of Hungary itself, its self-dissolution and an ending of the worst features of a totalitarian system which is now, it can truly be said, a system which is at an end.

There was also a determination on the part of the Hungarian people to reach out, not only to establish renewed ties and links with other parties around the world and with democracies around the world, but also to make ties with Hungarians who left Hungary in 1957 and before and after 1957. I simply wanted to draw the attention of the House to this turn of events in Hungary. We are going to have Lech Walesa here in two and a half weeks, a man who led a movement many of whose leaders were in jail just a few short years ago. That movement is now a part of the government of Poland.

These are truly historical events, events of tremendous importance to all of us and to all of the people of Canada. I thought it would be appropriate for us to draw attention to it and to reflect in our minds what we might do in this assembly to improve our ties with those democratic assemblies which are growing in eastern Europe and to think of practical ways in which we can be of assistance in making sure that the light of freedom, that the light of democracy is a light that, once lit in eastern Europe, will never, ever be extinguished again.

Mr Jackson: I too wish to rise, on behalf of the Progressive Conservative Party, to acknowledge the events today in Hungary as well as the historical footnote for all freedom-loving peoples around the world; that is, the Hungarian Revolution.

In 1956, we know that Hungary began to experience a whole nationhood falling under the spirit of oppression and the weight of the communist system under Joseph Stalin. In response to peaceful demonstrations in neighbouring Poland. Hungarians eagerly took to the streets to express their own sense of hope for their future, only to be met with military confrontation at a radio station in their capital city, a radio station that was an instrument for government disinformation, a radio station that was the home base for secret police activities.

History well documents what happened. The revolution was short-lived. It was gallant. Yet the Hungarian Revolution has continued to this day under a very different form and under very different political conditions.

The hope for freedom has taken on a unique expression in the eastern Europe of 1989. Bullets are no longer being shot at unarmed crowds and the throngs in the streets no longer are being harmed just because they are looking for bread, yet that same determination is there in the hearts and minds of the Hungarian people as it was in 1956.

The Hungarian people today are closer to that dream that inspired their fathers in 1956 than ever before in this century. Hungary today is a republic. Hungary today has annulled its communist linkages, its Communist Party and its stumbling blocks in its efforts to achieve a better standard of living for its people as well as democratic freedoms for its government and its people.

Hungary today is different, as is all of eastern Europe, in ways unforeseen. The martyrs of the revolution died in 1956, but they have engendered a new hope and a new vision that is just now beginning to be experienced.

On behalf of the Progressive Conservative Party, I would like to express my sincere congratulations to all Canadians of Hungarian descent on this very special day in their history. I also extend to them and their brothers and sisters in Hungary our congratulations on a job well done. It should serve as a sobering reminder to all of us here in Canada, who often take the freedoms we enjoy too much for granted. of the difficulty and sacrifice it takes to regain lost democratic ground.

Hon Mr Wong: I would be more than pleased to make a statement today on behalf of the government with respect to this very special day today. This is a time of remembrance, particularly for all people concerned and interested in freedom in the world. Thirty-three years ago the world witnessed a very historic event in Hungary, and shortly thereafter 38,000 people of Hungarian origin came to Canada and many of them settled in Ontario.

Until today, this particular day of 23 October, never had this day been publicly acknowledged or celebrated in Hungary, but today we are witnessing a very important event that is not only symbolic but real. It evidences the beginning of positive changes, I believe, that are taking place in Hungarian society. We hope that the measures that are going to be taken by the Hungarian people will usher in constructive reforms for the future.

I would like to join with my colleagues from the other parties in commemorating this significant date and at the same time say to all of our Canadian friends of Hungarian descent and origin that we are pleased to mark this very significant day in history with them.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Hon Mr Elston: Today I will be introducing legislation which will ensure affordable auto insurance rates and a comprehensive accident benefit plan to protect the more than six million drivers in Ontario.

The motorists of this province want two things. They want stable insurance rates. Sky-rocketing insurance premiums will not be tolerated. People expect to be treated fairly and this government will make sure that they are. Drivers want to be well protected in the event they are hurt in auto accidents. That is why they pay premiums in the first place, and what they do not need while they axe recovering are long delays and excessive legal expenses.

Our plan will return more of the premium dollar to those who need it, the injured victims. The Ontario motorist protection plan, which has its foundations in this proposed legislation, will meet these very important social needs. It will do so in a balanced and responsible manner.

The Ontario motorist protection plan is a comprehensive program. The system itself will be reformed in this new legislation so that consumers get premium savings and improved benefit protection. The underlying causes of higher insurance rates -- accidents and injuries on our roads -- will be addressed through a number of other initiatives so that premiums remain afford-able in the future.

Other highlights of the package are swift payment of accident benefits without the need to sue; greatly improved levels of payments: more people than ever before will be eligible for income replacement benefits including seniors, students and the unemployed; child care benefits will be available for the first time and income replacement for unpaid homemakers will be more than doubled; the freedom and flexibility to purchase additional insurance for even greater protection will be provided; a new, strong regulatory authority; a speedy and accessible system for resolving disputes; continued access to the courts in cases of serious injury and death; strong deterrents to bad driving; new measures to reduce accidents and improve highway safety; enhanced consumer protection; reform of the tort system.

First, let me deal with premium savings.

Bodily injuries totalled $1.8 million in 1988. It is estimated that accident victims received only between 60 and 70 cents of every dollar paid with respect to those claims. The rest goes to pay legal and other settlement expenses. These costs have to be paid by someone and that someone is every driver through substantially higher premiums.

To maintain this system and its expanding volume of litigation, it is estimated that drivers in Ontario would have to pay average premium increases of between 30 and 35 per cent next year. Clearly, such large increases are unacceptable. They are unacceptable to the general motorist, to the people who must drive for their livelihood, to seniors whose mobility means independence and to the government which must act in the public interest.

That is why the government is introducing this legislation. These important reforms will result in significant savings for consumers. Under the new system, average premiums will not increase at all for rural drivers and will rise only eight per cent for urban motorists next year.

At the same time, the new plan ensures that anyone hurt in an automobile accident will receive higher levels of guaranteed benefits. Those who are injured will be eligible for up to $1 million of supplementary medical, rehabilitation and long-term care. Income replacement benefits will be more than tripled, to $450 per week.

Under the new plan, coverage will be broadened. For the first time, students, seniors and the unemployed will be entitled to income replacement benefits. Child care benefits will also be provided for the first time. Income replacement for unpaid homemakers will be more than doubled and the period of benefit coverage will be extended to the same as for employed persons.

Optional insurance coverage will be available for even greater accident benefit protection. Consumers will be able to tailor their insurance to their individual needs.

These reforms will accomplish the twin goals of premium savings and improved accident benefits by reducing the need to sue. The vast majority of people involved in auto accidents suffer only minor injuries and they will be well protected by the higher levels of guaranteed benefits available in the new plan.

Injured victims will not have to pay expensive legal fees or wait months, and sometimes years, for compensation. Thus there will be no need to sue in about 90 per cent of all cases. In the remaining cases, those involving serious injury or death, higher compensation levels may be required and therefore access to the courts will be maintained. Guaranteed accident benefits will also be paid to these individuals or their estates, thereby providing support during the litigation process.

By reserving the courts for the most serious cases and reducing the amount of litigation in the system, significant savings can be achieved, savings which can be passed on to the consumer in the form of lower insurance rates and higher benefits. Under the new system, guaranteed accident benefits will be delivered within 10 to 30 days. Insurance companies will face substantial penalties for not paying on time. Additionally, a system of accessible and speedy dispute resolution will be available.

This is a dramatic improvement over the current tort-based system in which injured victims often have to wait years for compensation. The Ontario motorist protection plan will avoid the severe financial strain on families that long delays and cost of litigation often cause.

Timely delivery of benefits is especially important in promoting rehabilitation, because early treatment is often critical to recovery. The Ontario motorist protection plan will ensure that injured victims receive the immediate care they need without having to spend their family savings or go into debt while waiting for a possible court award or a settlement. The costs of long-term care will also be covered as a guaranteed benefit for the first time under the new plan.

I want to emphasize that the Ontario motorist protection plan is not designed to protect the bad drivers of the province. It will penalize them more than ever. Deterrents will be a key component of the system. Fault will continue to be used for rating purposes. That means good driving records will be reflected in preferred insurance rates and bad drivers will be paying higher premiums.

Additionally, the new plan recognizes that the cost of insurance is directly related to the number and severity of accidents on the roads. In order to address these underlying causes of higher insurance rates, a series of initiatives will be introduced by the government over the next several months.

These will include increased fines for speeding and other traffic offences; more enforcement on our major highways by the Ontario Provincial Police; driver safety promotion in the workplace; public education campaigns to promote the use of seatbelts, which has already begun, and daytime running lights for all automobiles; a new program requiring drunk driver repeat offenders to seek treatment and produce proof of having effectively dealt with their problem before their licences are reinstated.

We believe that the best deterrence to bad driving comes from criminal sanctions, higher insurance premiums for bad drivers, vigilant enforcement and better education.

People who are injured require care and rehabilitation whether they are deemed to be innocent or at fault in accidents. That is why, under the new system, all motorists will receive guaranteed accident benefits regardless of fault. This means that if someone causes an accident, perhaps because of a moment’s inattention, that person’s family will not be burdened with a lifetime of debt. The costs of rehabilitation, as well as income replacement benefits, will be provided.

What we are proposing, then, is a new social safety net. The social objective is to provide everyone injured in an automobile accident with the compensation needed to return to as normal a life as quickly as possible.

Insurance companies will be subject to a tough new regulatory regime. A new insurance com-mission will have broad powers of intervention and enforcement. It will be responsible for ensuring that accident victims receive prompt compensation and that disputes are resolved quickly through mediation and arbitration. The insurance commission will also be responsible for protecting the interests of consumers and regulating rates.

There are many other measures designed to help protect consumers in this legislation. Motorists will be given the choice of paying their insurance premiums on a monthly basis. Insurance companies will be required to notify drivers at least 30 days before changing or cancelling their policies. Brokers will have to disclose, on request, the number and identity of insurance companies with which they have contracts.

Auto insurance policies will have to set out the separate components of the coverage, how each was rated and the cost of each part. There will be a prohibition on tied selling, making the sale of one insurance product conditional on the purchase of another product. Consumers will be able to exclude certain drivers from their household policies so that good drivers are not penalized by bad drivers in a family. Insurance companies will have to establish programs that assist in deterring fraud, since claims abuses by a few dishonest people can result in higher premiums for everyone.

Since access to the courts will be retained in cases of serious injury or death, tort reform will be important in helping to streamline the system. In this regard, the Attorney General (Mr Scott) will also be introducing legislation today.

The government has adopted the only rational approach that balances the need for affordable auto insurance with the requirement for improved benefit levels. This made in Ontario plan provides leadership and direction. It addresses the underlying causes of higher rates and it therefore promises greater premium stability in the future.

Driving must be made safer and more affordable for the people of this province. This legislation, which is the cornerstone of our plan. will help protect consumers and reduce costs and risks of driving in the province.

TORT REFORM

Hon Mr Scott: Later today I will introduce for first reading two bills that will implement various tort reform initiatives that were announced in this House in a preliminary way some months ago.

The government has received thoughtful and useful suggestions for tort reform from many groups. In particular, the Ontario Law Reform Commission report on compensation for personal injuries and death and the Osborne report have been a source of many sound ideas and recommendations.

These bills, which propose amendments to the Courts of Justice Act, 1984, and the Evidence Act, contain amendments concerning prejudgement interest, structured settlements and changes to the litigation process, and will be undertaken in conjunction with complementary changes to the rules of civil procedure which were sent to the rules committee, composed of judges and barristers, under the Courts of Justice Act, some months ago.

With respect to a plaintiff’s entitlement to prejudgement interest on a damage award, amendments will be made to the Courts of Justice Act to expand the period for which such interest is available and to provide more neutral rates of interest for the calculation of prejudgement interest.

With respect to structured settlements, in some cases the court must increase the amount of a damage award, as members will know, to give the plaintiff sufficient funds to pay income tax that accrues over time on investment of the court award. A structured settlement can avoid the need for the increase or gross-up of a damage award. However, in the current system, structured settlements are only available where both the plaintiff and the defendant consent.

The amendments I will be introducing today would give the court the power, subject to some limitations, to order a structured settlement whenever a plaintiff requests that his or her damage award be grossed up to meet federal income tax consequences.

The other amendments brought forward today concern improvements to the litigation process and include (1) amendments to the Evidence Act to increase the availability and use of evidence of health professionals at trials, (2) amendments to the Courts of Justice Act to permit trial judges and lawyers to offer guidance to juries in assessing the amount of a damage award, (3) amendments to the Courts of Justice Act to enable an appeal court to substitute its own assessment of damages where it is of the opinion that a jury award ought to be set aside as inappropriate, (4) amendments to the Courts of Justice Act to facilitate the making of advance payments by defendants to plaintiffs before the court has determined liability.

I wish to make special note of the fact that these amendments will apply to causes of action that arise after the date of first reading of the bills.

It is my hope that these amendments to the Courts of Justice Act and the Evidence Act, complemented by a variety of rules changes to which I have earlier referred, will improve the fairness and efficiency of our tort system.

RESPONSES

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Kormos: What an incredible narration on the part of the Minister of Financial Institutions. He talks about “made in Ontario.” He is talking about new insurance rules that were made in the boardrooms of the private auto insurance industry right here in Ontario. That is where those new rules came from, and that is where that insurance legislation came from. The auto insurance industry in Ontario invested over $100,000 in these guys in the last general election, and it is sure getting its money’s worth because the payback is starting right now.

This minister dares talk about reducing the need to sue. My God, he has eliminated the right to sue. He has guaranteed that 90 to 95 percent of innocent injured people in this province are never going to receive one penny in compensation for the pain and suffering or the loss of enjoyment of life they suffer at the hands of drunk, negligent and careless drivers.

What this servant of the auto insurance industry is talking about is making sure that people do not get anything for their pain and suffering and making sure that not a single worker in Ontario receives full wage replacement for his lost wages at the hands of drunk, negligent and careless drivers.

What this so-called Minister of Financial Institutions is talking about is making darned sure that the insurance companies make profits as they never imagined before in their lives. He is not the Minister of Financial Institutions; this man over here is the minister of private insurance companies because, boy, if they ever had anybody looking out for their interests, they have got him right now in the form of the member for Bruce (Mr Elston); I will tell the members that.

It is incredible. I watch the minister really closely, and never has such a load of crap ever been unloaded in this Legislature before. It should have been done out on the front lawn because at least the grass would be greener by virtue of it. This is entirely unacceptable to the people of this province. It is not going to work; it is not going to fly. This minister had better make darned sure he listens to the people across Ontario over the next several months before he tries cramming this down their throats.

Mr B. Rae: The critical issue here for the House to consider is, first of all, that we are being told by the government House leader that it is the government’s intention to proceed with this legislation and to have it passed before Christmas. I want to put the government on notice. There is no way it can take the right to compensation away from thousands of victims of accidents without giving every single person who is affected by it the opportunity to appear before a committee and to make this House and the Liberal Party understand what is at stake here.

What the government has done is it has taken into account the rate of inflation since 1977-78, essentially increased ever so slightly the level of benefits that will be paid to people and then said that all those people who previously had rights of action and rights to compensation under our old insurance system will no longer have that right today.

I want to make one other point. It is not as if this is even a pure no-fault system. It is not as if this system is even as good as workers’ compensation, because what you have is a system that is not designed to provide for fair compensation. It is designed to provide a rate of return to the insurance companies of Ontario which will guarantee them profits ad infinitum. That is what the Liberal Party is all about.

The only thing this insures fairly and squarely is the profits of the insurance companies of Ontario. The private-profit monopoly will be insured ad infinitum by the Liberal Party of Ontario. My colleague the member for Welland-Thorold (Mr Kormos) was absolutely right when he said, “When the insurance brokers and insurance industry decided to hitch their star to the Liberal Party of Ontario, they got exactly the party they rented back in 1987 when they decided to start renting the Liberal Party to see what it would do.”

Look at this legislation and you will find, word for word and clause by clause, exactly what the insurance companies of Ontario wanted, exactly what the insurance business of Ontario wanted, and that is what the Liberal Party of Ontario has given them.

We do not have a public system. We do not have a good system. We do not have a fair system. And the people whose rights have been taken away and whose level of benefits will be affected are the people who drive in this province, the people who get injured in this province, and those are the people who are being shafted by this legislation.

TORT REFORM

Mr Runciman: Unlike the member for Welland-Thorold, I do not find the minister’s statement today incredible. I think we have gotten used to this kind of flim-flam act on the part of the minister, his predecessor and the government. There is no sense of embarrassment on that side of the House over what has transpired over the past two years: well over $10 million of taxpayers’ money wasted, down the toilet, by the actions and inactions of this Liberal government.

It is perhaps mildly surprising that the New Democratic Party is not even quietly supporting this kind of initiative. If one reads the column -- and I tend to agree with it; I do not always agree with it -- by Laurence Grafstein in the Toronto Sun a couple of weeks ago -- he is a Liberal, is he not?

Mr Brandt: Yes, he certainly is.

Mr Runciman: I will put a couple of quotes on the record. “What could be a more profound example of pure socialism than no-fault insurance? In essence, no-fault insurance denies that the crucial link between those” --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order.

Mr Runciman: “In essence, no-fault insurance denies that the crucial link between those who cause accidents and those who become victims of accidents is one of individual moral responsibility.

“Under no-fault the issue is no longer the relationship between a negligent driver and his victim, but rather the relationship between both the driver and his victim on the one hand and the state on the other.”

Since 1987, when I predicted the path this government was going to follow, I have said that no-fault was the second step in a three-step process. The government has entered the slippery slope towards state-run auto insurance, perhaps not at the pace my friends in the socialist party would like to see occur, but indeed it has embarked on that path, and it is going to be difficult to turn back now.

Our party is going to oppose this initiative, this measure, with all the vigour possible. Our party believes in the ethic of responsibility. Our party believes that individuals should be held responsible for their actions. This legislation is nothing short of legalized abdication of responsibility.

Again, it is not surprising when we take a look at what this government has done in respect of this whole question of automobile insurance; it has been ad hoc, panic-driven, seat-of-the-pants policymaking since day one. We have had report after report, recommendation after recommendation, just ignored by this government: the Slater report, the Osborne report, his own board’s report and recommendations respecting no-fault, totally ignored, at a cost of millions of dollars.

Consulting firms that reported to the standing committee on administration of justice, to the Ontario Automobile Insurance Board and to the government again were totally ignored, at a cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars.

This has been a textbook example of government mismanagement and deceit. Regrettably, under House rules, even when it has become patently obvious that a member of this assembly has knowingly or otherwise misled the public, I am restricted as a member from stating the obvious. Hence, I am unable to state the obvious with respect to the member for London South’s 1987 election promise that he had a very specific plan to lower auto insurance rates.

Some hon members: London Centre.

Mr Runciman: I am glad my friends know the riding, London Centre. I will correct the record: London Centre. I thank the members for that assistance from the brown-nose gang. It is good to know they are alive and well and lurking on the back benches of the Liberal Party.

Under this plan, rates will not go down. Perhaps one of the most serious aspects of this is, as recommendation after recommendation has indicated, accident frequency rates and highway fatalities will increase. Yet the minister has the unmitigated gall to stand up today and say that he is concerned about highway safety, when all the facts are there that accident rates and fatalities on the highways are going to increase.

This system violates most people’s sense of justice and responsibility. It is a thrust by this government that we in the Progressive Conservative Party cannot and will not support.

Mr Sterling: I would like to say two brief things. First of all, the announcement by the Attorney General with regard to tort reform has nothing at all to do with the no-fault auto insurance scheme put forward by the Chairman of Management Board of Cabinet (Mr Elston), and the two should not be confused. Osborne clearly supports tort reform, as do many members of the bar.

Secondly, and perhaps in a lighter vein, I would like to recommend to the Attorney General that he put forward the name of the member for Welland-Thorold for Queen’s counsel this year.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. That completes the allotted time for ministerial statements and responses.

ORAL QUESTIONS

CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES

Mr B. Rae: In the absence of the Premier (Mr Peterson), I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Correctional Services. The minister will be aware, as I am sure all members of the House are aware by this time, of the fact that guards working in 18 jails and correctional facilities across the province -- according to my information as of this morning -- are in the middle of job actions that affect the conditions in the jail, and they are a result of the extraordinary overcrowding and deterioration in working and living conditions in those jails.

I would like to ask the minister why he had no statement to make at the beginning of the House today with regard to what is going on, and can he tell us what the government intends to do to ensure that the guards’ concerns about over-crowding and conditions in the jail will finally be addressed?

Hon Mr Patten: Yes, I am well aware of this particular situation. We have been monitoring this throughout the weekend. I can appreciate the frustration of some of the correctional officers related to the salary/wages dispute that is at arbitration at the moment and some of their concerns, indeed, for some of the pressures we have, particularly around the Toronto watershed, which is being precipitated by the more recent rash of arrests related to drug-related offences.

I can assure the honourable Leader of the Opposition that we are addressing this situation. We have added staff to this particular situation, particularly at the Toronto Jail. We have converted some beds because, the honourable member will know, the pressure is essentially on the remand side of the people whom we must supervise and care for.

I would also add that we have a 15-year capital plan that I have spent a great deal of time on in the last two and a half months since I have taken on this portfolio, and I expect in short order to be able to make some announcements related to expanding our capacity for beds for that particular population.

Mr B. Rae: This is at one and the same time a long-term problem. The Ombudsman, on page 10 of his 1987 annual report, in describing the conditions at the Barrie Jail, which he visited himself, said the quality of the environment at that institution does not meet minimum acceptable standards as we approach 1990. The Ombudsman drew attention to the conditions in the Whitby Jail where, he stated that as a result, this high population density leads to increased tension. The Ombudsman refers to the fact that this problem has been ongoing for 10 years.

We now face a particularly critical problem and at a point now where prisoners are being kept in their cells for long periods of time. In Hamilton over the weekend, two guards -- a man and a woman, according to information that I had -- who were asked to look after the so-called Toronto wing set up on an emergency basis that weekend, had nervous breakdowns.

We are now at a critical point in these facilities, where tension is running incredibly high. Just what is the minister proposing to do to see that guards are given some assurance that their working conditions and the living conditions of people in those prisons can be kept up to standard?

Hon Mr Patten: We believe we have the adequate number of staff. As I mentioned, we have added to that staff complement. If the honourable Leader of the Opposition will examine his statistics, he will see that the addition of staff in the last five years has outstripped completely, by a significant amount -- close to 30 per cent staff increases in our particular institution in the last five years -- our overall population growth of about five per cent, according to our annual report of last year. So we have done that.

We are extremely sensitive to this particular issue, let me assure the member. I hope that the opposition party will work with us, not against us, to precipitate a situation, in view of the sensitivity of this situation.

Mr Kormos: Let’s not confuse the issue by talking about Toronto and the watershed and prisoners being transferred. The fact remains that the transfer of prisoners, which indeed is taking place from Toronto to Hamilton and from Hamilton to Niagara, is aggravating a pre-existing situation of overcrowding and understaffing.

The minister has been told. He was told on 10 October by the member for Cambridge (Mr Farnan) and by the presence of correctional officers right here in this House. He was told on 16 October when I spoke to him about my observations at Niagara Detention Centre. We have one-person cells being converted into two-person cells by the mere bolting on of an additional bunk, now being converted into three-and four-person cells by requiring prisoners to literally sleep on the floor, and not just in one or two instances, but in frequent instances.

It is a real problem of overcrowding and understaffing. The minister does not do it any justice by denying it. When is he going to act, and why will he not act promptly on a real problem, a life-and-death problem for officers and inmates and prisoners of these institutions?

Hon Mr Patten: The member for Welland-Thorold did not speak to me. I did see a letter that was addressed to me, but it was an open letter, that identified some concerns I would have been very happy to talk with him about in person or try to address the concerns he identified.

I want him to know that I do share his concern. I ask for his empathy as well. This is a much bigger issue than any single ministry at this time and I believe the member well knows that. We have a situation now where in the largest metropolis of Canada there is an increase in the apprehension of persons for drug-related offences. That is a recent development. It is not something that happened three years ago or even two years ago. The local police officers are becoming more vigilant in their apprehensions. We are not an inn and cannot say, “No, we cannot take them.”

When he talks about the capacity of our institutions, I agree, it is now promoting that and placing pressure on us. It is not universal throughout the province --

The Speaker: Thank you. That seems like a fairly lengthy answer.

CARDIOVASCULAR CARE

Mr B. Rae: It gives new meaning to the phrase “scot-free.”

I look to the Minister of Health. I am giving the minister some thousands of petitions from residents of Windsor. I understand the minister met this morning with some representatives of a group in Windsor that has been lobbying vigorously on behalf of heart patients. It is made up mainly of heart patients, and my colleague the member for Windsor-Riverside (Mr D. S. Cooke) and I met with them in September.

I wonder if the minister can explain why the proposal she presented to them in draft form says nothing about whether the government is prepared to have heart surgery performed in Windsor for people living in the Windsor/Essex county area. Why is there nothing at all in the proposal indicating that this is what the government is prepared to do?

Hon Mrs Caplan: I recognize the importance of this service, and l am committed to improving access to all the people in Ontario. We all know that while our services are good, we are always trying to improve them.

The Leader of the Opposition is correct. I did meet this morning with representatives from Windsor. I told them I had accepted the advice from an expert panel. I also told them of our plans to enhance and improve access to services, and while it is not happening as quickly as I would like, we are moving to enhance those services.

I am prepared to share with the Leader of the Opposition a letter which I sent to the chairman of the district health council outlining our commitment to see that everything that can be done will be done as quickly as possible.

Mr B. Rae: The minister must be aware of the fact that there are, according to my information. five patients this week who are expected to go to Detroit for surgery from the Windsor area; that there are, according to the guesstimates provided by the doctors in the area, as many as 120 patients who are on waiting lists for surgery in London and Toronto.

The minister’s draft proposal for audit tells the people of Windsor that they are going to have to wait until November 1990 to find out what are the booking and scheduling procedures and practices for cardiovascular diagnosis and treatment, to find out what is the monitoring of patients on waiting lists, to find out the reasons for postponements, to find out how long the waiting list is and what the waiting times for diagnosis and treatment and reasons are.

The Speaker: The question?

Mr B. Rae: What does it say about the organization of the minister’s own bureaucracy that she is incapable of telling patients today why they are on a waiting list, how long that waiting list is there, why their surgery is being postponed and how they are being monitored by the Ministry of Health?

The Speaker: Order. There are quite a few questions there.

Hon Mrs Caplan: As the Leader of the Opposition knows, I met with representatives from Windsor. I informed them that I had accepted the recommendations of an expert panel. I have asked that panel to report on a monthly basis so that if there are recommendations that it can give us on how we can improve, we certainly will expedite implementation of those recommendations. I have asked that they give us their full report within a year.

I would point out to the member that when the expert panel met with representatives from the Windsor area, they themselves anticipated that it would take that length of time to gather all of the information needed, and I would say to him that we are working with all of our partners in the delivery of health services: the doctors, the nurses, everyone. We do not want to politicize the individual cases and discuss them in an inappropriate forum. We want to implement the plans that we have and meet the needs as quickly as we can.

Mr D. S. Cooke: I would like the minister, if she can try, to be very specific in the reply to this question. There are heart patients here; the local press is here. Perhaps for once she can give the folks back home a clear answer.

Is she or is she not prepared to amend her draft proposal so that it specifically will state that the feasibility of a surgical unit for heart patients will be examined for the city of Windsor, and will she specifically change this date of November 1990 and do something more quickly? Hundreds of people are waiting for surgery --

The Speaker: Thank you.

Mr D. S. Cooke: -- and we have been waiting for four years for action from her government. It is not too much to ask her to move a little more quickly than she has.

The Speaker: The questions have been asked.

Hon Mrs Caplan: Let me share with the member opposite the letter which I sent, a paragraph of which will clarify and let him know that we are moving as quickly as we possibly can to seek the very best possible expert advice. I am aware of the anxiety of the people of Windsor. We discussed that this morning and I have met with people who are here.

The letter states, “The surgeons have recommended that the purpose of the audit should be to determine and assess the current situation regarding delivery of cardiovascular services in south-western Ontario and make recommendations to improve the delivery of service.”

I have asked this panel to report on a monthly basis. As it has recommendations, I will commit to the member and to all members of this House to move as quickly as I can to implement its recommendations.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Brandt: My question is for the Chairman of Management Board and the Minister of Financial Institutions. The minister went on at some length with respect to the new package of auto insurance reforms that his government is proposing for Ontario, and I think it is important that we establish very clearly not only what people will be getting but what the citizens of Ontario will in all probability be losing with respect to the reforms the minister is proposing.

I would like to ask him a question in regard to a situation and his response would be welcomed. If an individual were involved in an accident, not the individual’s fault, and that resulted in several serious operations including a spinal fusion, under the legislation which he has tabled today, would that individual meet the threshold of permanent, serious impairment of an important bodily function and therefore qualify for the threshold limit?

Hon Mr Elston: The answer to that question is, he might. I do not know the various circumstances around the operation otherwise, but we have left it to the courts to determine whether or not the threshold would be met by such an occurrence.

Mr Brandt: Since the minister cannot answer for a specific case that I bring before him with respect to Ontario and since the Ontario model is, in great part, based on the experience and the model and, in fact, some of the wording is taken directly from the Michigan model, would the minister be able to indicate how these circumstances which I have just outlined for him would be handled under the Michigan legislation?

Hon Mr Elston: My proposal is designed for Ontario and I can tell the honourable gentleman that he has given us some very sketchy details of what he says the case is. I do not know the ramifications of the operation or otherwise with respect to the carrying on of an economic endeavour by the individual name. I do not know of a whole series of events, but I can tell the honourable gentleman, if there is a question in his mind about it. that our current system will be preserved for those people who have a serious injury that causes the impairment that would get them over the threshold. I just cannot answer his question, because he did not give me the details.

Mr Brandt: I want to advise the minister that in the case I brought to his attention, the Michigan Supreme Court in 1982 ruled that this particular circumstance did not in fact qualify at the threshold level. In 1986 the Michigan Supreme Court overturned its earlier ruling and indicated that it did qualify, and as a direct result of that the insurance rates on the part of the largest insuring company in the state of Michigan increased by 20 per cent.

What assurance can the minister give this House that a similar ruling as a result of the decision of the courts will not result in huge premium increases, coupled with the loss of the rights of the citizens of this province to sue in a great many cases?

Hon Mr Elston: The honourable gentleman has just outlined for the people of Ontario the safety release we have in the courts determining that, in fact, people ought to be covered and in that case he has just seen that justice was done for that particular individual. That is what we want in the system. We want the release so that people can be assured they can get relief if they have serious and permanent injuries.

I cannot for a moment predict that the individual who now occupies the leadership of the third party will not be able to come up with some sketchy details that, from time to time, he will ask me to look into a crystal ball and adjudicate upon. That is not my role. The role here is to ensure that every person has access quickly to the necessary income replacement, the supplementary medical and rehabilitation services and long-term care on a no-fault basis, and that in situations where there is a difficulty because of a serious and permanent injury, they are taken care of.

The incident that was just outlined for us indicates quite clearly why that safety release is necessary and is acceptable and provides the type of recovery opportunity that is needed to protect the people in Ontario.

I thank the honourable gentleman for bringing it to our attention.

CARDIOVASCULAR CARE

Mr Eves: I have a question for the Minister of Health. I would like to bring to the minister’s attention this afternoon the case of Pat Terry, who is 46 years old. He has a past history of heart problems. On 21 June of this year he saw his cardiologist about chest pains and was put on a waiting list for an angiogram. They were then booking into January and February of 1990. He suffered another heart attack on 21 September -- luckily for him, a mild one. He was in Toronto General Hospital. He then qualified for an emergency angiogram, which was done one week later. He was in hospital for two weeks and released.

He is now put on a waiting list for angioplasty, the balloon procedure, which his doctors have determined would be the best procedure for him to undergo. Unfortunately for him, that procedure cannot be scheduled until some time in November. Last Thursday he suffered chest pains that were so intense he had to book himself back into TGH.- He has a 90 per cent blockage of one artery and he cannot walk.

How is that Mr Terry can find himself in this position in October 1989, after the minister’s announcement of June 1988?

Hon Mrs Caplan: None of those involved in the health care system wants to politicize the anxiety of anyone who is seeking treatment within the health system, nor am I sure the member opposite would want me in any way to comment on the medical judgements of the physicians who are doing their very best to see that people receive the services they need when they need them.

The member knows full well that we announced expansion in capacity. We are hoping the Sunnybrook unit will be up and running within a very, very few weeks. London has increased capacity, as have Hamilton, Ottawa and Sudbury. It is not as fast as I would like. I understand the frustration and the anxiety of the families in these situations, and I am always prepared to investigate any particular individual cases, but I would say there is the appropriate forum for those investigations to take place and I would urge the member opposite not to politicize these tragic family situations.

Mr Eves: For the minister’s information, Mr Terry contacted me both last Thursday when he checked himself into hospital and again this morning, and asked me to bring this case to her attention. Also. I was talking to Mr Terry’s cardiologist this morning. He is of the opinion that in cases such as Mr Terry’s the system has not improved in many, many months, despite the minister’s announcement of 9 June 1988.

How can it be that we have waiting lists that are just as long, if not longer, in October 1989? In the minister’s statement of 9 June 1988, she assured us that Sunnybrook’s unit would be up and running by the end of 1988. We are now approaching the end of 1989. She assured us that more procedures would be done at all these cardiovascular centres around the province and especially those in Metropolitan Toronto. How can it be that patients like Mr Terry find themselves in these waiting lists for months and months at a time?

Hon Mrs Caplan: I would say that we all want the same thing. I identified very early on that action had to be taken, developed a plan and we are implementing. It is not as fast as I would like: it is not as fast as any of us would like. In the last six months, 40 additional critical care beds have been opened in the Toronto and Hamilton area. Capacity has been increased in Hamilton and it is my understanding that the Sunnybrook unit is preparing to open very, very shortly. Capacity has been increased in Sudbury and in Ottawa. I know that everyone, including the doctors and the nurses, is doing everything possible to ensure that people receive the appropriate care they need when they need it.

Mr Eves: I would agree that doctors and nurses are doing everything they can and they are doing everything they can with the very limited resources that the Ministry of Health is providing them with. It is really a function of her government’s policy that beds have closed, especially in Metropolitan Toronto, when her leader promised that 4,000 more would be opened.

It is a function of her government’s policy that there are not enough intensive care unit nurses to go around to operate a lot of these cardiovascular surgery units, and it is a function of her government’s policy that last week, as I understand it, at St Michael’s Hospital here in Toronto. many heart procedures were cancelled because of a shortage of heart pump technicians.

How can all these problems be still occurring some 15 months after the minister made her grandiose announcement of 9 June 1988? What has happened in the last 15 months? How come the waiting lists are still as long? How come Mr Terry has this problem?

The Speaker: Order. That is the fourth question.

Hon Mrs Caplan: In fact, we are making progress. It is not as fast as I would like, but we are. Does the member know what the people from Windsor told me this morning? They told me that their frustration is not because we have been discussing this for a few months, it is because a decade ago, when the member’s party had the opportunity to do something, it listened to nobody and did nothing, so today we are building a network to attempt to respond appropriately as quickly as we can, and we are listening and we are acting.

NATIVE LAND CLAIM

Mr Wlldman: In view of the absence of the Premier (Mr Peterson), I have a question for the Attorney General and the minister responsible for native affairs.

Could he explain how it was that on Thursday last, when his leader the Premier and he were both asked on three occasions to make clear the position of this government, what that position would be before the court in response to the application by the Teme-Augama Anishnabai First Nation for an injunction to stop the road and logging in the Temagami area, both were unable or unwilling to explain before this House what the exact position of the government would be before the court, and yet immediately after that, after question period, the Premier went outside and told reporters in the scrum what the government’s intention would be?

Hon Mr Scott: How it was? Let me explain: I think the honourable member has it wrong. The Premier did not answer that question in the House or outside the House and the reason he did not is that it is not possible for us to answer the question of how we will respond even now.

The reality is that everything depends on the relief that the TAA request in the notice of motion. If they request relief in respect of the Red Squirrel Road, that is one thing. If they request relief respecting all logging in this 4,000-square-mile area, which seems to be the most likely eventuality at the present time, that might lead to a different response. That is why it was then, and in my opinion remains now, very difficult to answer the honourable member’s question.

Mr Wildman: We all read the papers and I am sure the reporters were reporting what they heard from the Premier. The Premier indicated to them that this government’s position before the court would be to oppose the request for the injunction.

If that was the Premier’s position outside of this House, and now the Attorney General is indicating that he cannot make clear what the government’s exact position will be until he understands exactly what the Teme-Augama Anishnabai are requesting, could he clarify whether it is the position of his government that if the first nation requests the stopping of the road construction and all logging in the area until the Supreme Court of Canada has ruled on the land claim, his government will oppose that kind of a request?

Hon Scott: As the honourable member knows, the request that the TAA make is for ownership of an area that is about 4,000 square miles. Some 800 TAA members and about 10.000 other Canadians live in the area. The scope of the injunction request that is made by the TAA is obviously critical. If they are asking simply that we should stop work on one road, that is one matter. If they are asking that all activity on all crown lands in the area they claim, such as logging, fishing and so on, should terminate, that is another.

The practical difficulty is that the TAA have not as yet delivered their request for an injunction. We were told that we would have it today at lunch time, but it has not yet arrived. When we have it, and have an opportunity to consider it, I want the honourable member to know that we will promptly let him and the public know what our response towards it will be.

DEINSTITUTIONALIZATION

Mr Cousens: I have a question for the Minister of Community and Social Services. The minister will have received a letter from the York South Association for Community Living in which it states that it is in a state of crisis. “We are presently making plans for the closure of several group homes and we will be requesting your ministry to accept the return of several former residents of your ministry’s facilities.”

They cannot attract or retain qualified staff. One third of their front-line staff positions are presently vacant. They have had a $50,000 advertising program and ended up without any people to take up the jobs and they say in their letter, “We believe that our residents’ welfare and safety are in jeopardy and we can no longer risk the possible liability we will face in the event of a serious incident.”

How is the minister going to address these problems of the York South Association for Community Living?

Hon Beer: I am aware of the letter to which the honourable member has made mention and also, living in the same area, I am aware of many of the problems which social service agencies face in fast-growing areas.

I think one of the things we are doing which is going to help to address some of the particular problems of associations such as the York South Association for Community Living is the changes with respect to salaries and benefits which we are working on. We recognize there is a need across the board to bring up salaries of those working in front-line agencies in fast-growth areas. We also recognize that it is not always possible to do that as quickly as we would like, but we are very much aware of that situation and I hope we will be able to address it and to be of direct assistance to them shortly.

Mr Cousens: The minister will be well advised that his document Challenges and Opportunities was viewed as a bold and forward-thinking set of initiatives when it was first introduced, and they say in their letter. “It has become long in its challenges and short in its opportunities.” They are facing a $5,000 difference in what it takes to have someone fill one of those jobs. They are talking about the possibility of closing a number of group homes in York region within the next three weeks unless there is an answer from this minister’s government. They have 130 people on waiting lists and they too will be faced with the problem

The minister talks in a positive way about what he is doing. Could he tell this House when he will have a solution for the York South Association for Community Living? Will it be within three weeks?

Hon Beer: As with problems facing all the various agencies that may arise from time to time with the ministry -- we work very closely with them. As the honourable member knows, it is a very decentralized, close-to-the-ground service. We are at this moment working with them to resolve the specific issues and it is our understanding that we will be able to do that.

Mr Cousens: When? Come on. when? He didn’t answer my question, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: I am sure the former presiding officer understands the standing orders. Thank you. New question.

WATER QUALITY

Mr Faubert: My question is to the Minister of the Environment. Residents of my riding, Scarborough-Ellesmere, have advised me of their concerns about the condition of Highland Creek, of which the Bendale and West Branch run through my riding. This concern is also raised about other local waterways including Massey Creek and the Rouge River.

In Scarborough, Metropolitan Toronto and across Ontario we see an increased appreciation of the need to clean up the pollution of waterways, to maintain usable urban green spaces along watercourses and floodplains and to achieve a cleaner Great Lakes. Unfortunately, though, the water quality of urban watercourses is threatened continually by increased urbanization.

Can the minister advise how his ministry is addressing the cleanup of urban creeks and rivers?

Hon Mr Bradley: Excellent question, I must say, from the member for Scarborough-Ellesmere. I want to indicate first of all that one of the things that emerged from the Crombie commission, which I think offers a good deal of assistance and hope in this regard, is a request, a stipulation, that all levels of government look at the impact of any kind of development around these water systems which eventually flow into Lake Ontario. I think that is exceedingly important.

Concerning the Metro area, the member may be aware that my ministry has released a report which details some potential action and options for improvement of the Don River water quality. As well, we have allocated some $9.25 million in the 1988-89 budget to support Metro waterways cleanup projects such as sewage treatment plant improvements and detection. This is interesting because some of the young people we had employed in the ministry were involved in this.

This was looking for illegal hookups to the various rivers, in other words, where you had some combined sewers which went to the various rivers. This was a good part of our program. I must say, with the young people involved in the Environmental Youth Corps.

In addition to this, we have designated 17 areas of concern, which in fact were being addressed with the remedial action committee --

The Speaker: Thank you. I am sure there might be a supplementary, and you may want to save some of that information.

Mr Faubert: Municipalities should be increasingly involved in improving the water quality of their own watercourses. Can the minister advise if there are provincially sponsored programs which municipalities can participate in which either improve the effectiveness of sewage treatment plants or directly contribute to the cleanup of urban waterways?

Hon Mr Bradley: Yes, I can. Two things: The ministry is developing standards for the design of storm water pollution control facilities such as retention ponds and buffer strips along water-courses, which I think will reduce the runoff that is going into those. In addition, along with the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr Ramsay), we are involved in a process of reducing the number of applications of pesticides. This would be a joint program which I think is going to be quite effective in that regard.

These retention tanks are an excellent way to go. and we are encouraging them. For instance, in the east end of Toronto there will be one constructed -- there is one in Hamilton; I had the opportunity to participate in the opening -- and what these do is in fact collect the storm water so that it does not rush immediately into these watercourses and sewage treatment plants. It is allowed to settle so that you do not have that kind of rush and flow of bacteria and other contaminants into the lake.

In addition to this, of course, we are encouraging municipalities to develop sewer use control bylaws. These are model bylaws where they can determine precisely what is going into the sewers so they can require, before the contaminants even get into the sewers, that those are in fact abated. These are comprehensive --

The Speaker: Thank you. New question. The member for Lake Nipigon.

NATIVE LAND CLAIM

Mr Pouliot: My question is to the minister responsible for native affairs regarding the Manitoulin land claim. The minister, perhaps better than anyone in this House, will be aware that in 1862, some time back, the land on Manitoulin Island, some 850,000 acres, was handed over to the government, to colonial officials, for the purpose of sale, and the profits were to be turned back to natives for their benefit, of course.

To this day, some 90,000 acres, including lakes, rivers, and a strip of land of 66 feet surrounding the entire community, has yet to be sold. This land claim has been going on for some 10 years. A lot of people are waiting for acquiescence, for political will from this government to resolve this outstanding issue. How close are we to a settlement in this affair?

Hon Mr Scott: As the honourable member knows, as well as anybody who might have been around since 1862 when the original transaction occurred, this government has received historically a substantial number of land claims, approximately 40 from various native bands. It was a matter of great embarrassment, I think, to all Ontarians that until 1985, no government of Ontario had ever positively responded to a native land claim in the province.

We have now responded to about 13 or 14 of them and are working on the others. Among the 13 or 14 is the Manitoulin claim, to which the honourable member makes reference, and we are working hard in order to negotiate a settlement to that.

Mr Pouliot: The minister is entirely correct when he states that the natives, over the past century, have been dealing with governments that lack the will to be honourable. It is as simple as that. Promises made during treaties have been broken time after time, have been ignored, and people have been taken down the proverbial path. Those treaties have not only been unfulfilled, but they have also left a heritage of bitter disappointment. Now the minister has a chance to redress this, for it is not only the natives on Manitoulin Island who are suffering from that lack of will.

The tourism industry does not know where to plan -- or what to plan -- for the future. No one knows, and yet we hear rumours and we are told to ask the Attorney General, the minister responsible.

Can the minister give us, if not a meticulous one, somewhat of a ball park timetable? Will it be next month? Will it be six months from now? How close is he to having an agreement in this affair? It is very important, not only for natives, but everyone who resides on and loves Manitoulin Island.

Hon Scott: I know that few members in the House have the commitment to these issues that the honourable member questioning me has and I know he is very concerned to find what the timetable of the negotiations will be. It has been proceeding on for some period of time now. I would think if settlement in the short or medium term is going to be made, it will probably be made in the next six to eight weeks.

LOAN TO TENANTS’ GROUP

Mr Harris: I have a question for the Minister of Housing about the taxpayer-financed, $60-million purchase by tenants of the City Park Apartments in Toronto. It has been brought to my attention that several offers from the private sector were turned down and that the actual purchase price for these buildings is up to 20 per cent higher than the going market value. In fact, by paying too much, the government has now artificially inflated the market value of other rental property, all in the name of affordable housing. I would ask the minister how he can condone using $60 million of public funds to drive up apartment values while at the same time failing to create one single new unit?

Hon Mr Sweeney: As the honourable member probably knows, these were buildings that were involved in the Greymac flip situation of a few years ago. They ended up in the hands of a receiver. The receiver petitioned the courts to help it determine what should be done with these buildings. It was, I believe, and I stand to be corrected, a court ruling that in fact the buildings could be sold to the nonprofit sector. It is our understanding that it was on the basis of a tender bid.

The honourable member should be aware of the fact that my ministry did an analysis of the value of those buildings compared to the value of constructing new apartments and it was deter-mined that the price of those buildings was approximately 70 per cent of the value of constructing new units. On the basis of that, it was seen to be a fair price and it was seen to be a good use of the dollars that are available if we could acquire for the nonprofit market something like 740 units at 70 per cent of the cost of constructing new ones.

Mr Harris: The minister can have all his government people trying to figure out the value he wants. The fact of the matter is that on the open market, the price paid with government money was up to 20 per cent higher than the private sector thought they were worth.

Two years ago, the minister’s government inflated all land values in Metropolitan Toronto by selling Malvern land for over $4,000 a foot, piercing that barrier for the first time and setting a new high landmark for the price of land. Now the Ministry of Housing, with this inflated-value apartment transaction, has established a new inflated benchmark for this building and, in effect, the minister has inflated apartment building values for all buildings of this class here in Metropolitan Toronto.

Given that when he does that under his rent review system eventually those inflated values will all be translated into higher rents in all the buildings of that class here in Toronto, I would ask the minister again, how can he justify using taxpayers’ money to set a new high benchmark value for property and, in effect, increase apartment rents all across Metropolitan Toronto?

Hon Mr Sweeney: What the honourable member perhaps also understands is that the private sector has consistently advised us that it is not profitable for it to build new units. As a matter of fact, the most recent figure that we heard was that to build new, two-bedroom units in the Metro area would require rentals in the neighbourhood of $1,200 or $1,300 a month. The private sector is clearly saying to us that even if a number of other things were changed, it would not be encouraged to go out and build new units.

Therefore, with the distinct possibility that we cannot bring new units on the market at an affordable price, it seemed quite reasonable to be able to bring into the nonprofit sector 740-plus units at only 70 per cent of what it would cost the government to help finance construction of new units. The fact that the court decided that these nonprofit areas were the most appropriate buyer is something that we accede to.

Mr Harris: There are no new units here. All you have done is to increase --

The Speaker: Order.

RENT REGULATION OF RETIREMENT HOMES

Mr Fleet: My question is for the Minister of Housing. The Grenadier Residents Association is composed of 137 seniors who live in a retirement home at 2100 Bloor Street. They average 83 years of age; over 80 per cent are women and most live alone. Residents began moving into the new building in late 1987 with monthly rents of approximately $1,100, as advertised. In January 1988 and 1989, residents faced rent increases of approximately 14.5 and 30 per cent respectively. The seniors have fought back.

In 1988, the association made a precedent-setting application to rent review for a ruling of rent review legislation applied to their building and to roll back the rents. It was the start of a long legal battle because both sides are determined to appeal a negative result.

Final arrangements and submissions were provided to rent review by both parties in May. A decision had been first promised by early June and then repeatedly promised to be coming, quote, “shortly,” but has not yet arrived. The seniors are justifiably angry and frustrated.

The Speaker: Order. Do you have a question?

Mr Fleet: When will a decision be made?

Hon Mr Sweeney: The honourable member, as part of his question, indicated that both sides are determined that they will appeal what they see to be a negative response. That, quite frankly, is part of the reason it is taking so long to come up with an answer, because the rent review officers are very aware of the fact that this could be a precedent-setting decision, not just for the Grenadier but for rest and retirement homes across the entire province of Ontario, and not just for the ones that exist today, but for ones that will be built over the next three or four years and longer.

So therefore, they have to be very, very careful that the basis of their decision is sound and that they can defend it against the inevitable appeal that the member already indicated.

I can only say to my honourable friend that we are aware of the concern on the part of both the tenants and the landlord there and we will get the decision as quickly as we possibly can. I understand, and I am sorry to have to use the term again, that it is about to come shortly.

Mr Fleet: Regardless of which way the rent review decision goes, the facts in this case highlight a gap in provincial regulation. Seniors in several hundred retirement homes all over Ontario lack adequate protection. A survey and a separate advisory committee report released earlier this year for the Minister without Portfolio responsible for senior citizens’ affairs documents the need for additional legislation.

To avoid a repetition for other seniors of the struggle of the Grenadier Residents Association, would the minister please advise the House when we can expect new legislation’?

Hon Mr Sweeney: The difficulty in the honourable member’s question is a presumption that the decision will be not in favour of the tenants. He may very well be correct, but then again, the decision may be the other way.

The difficulty that we are facing is that the rent review legislation was not drafted with this type of situation in mind, because it clearly did not intend to bring under rent review those buildings where the care component, the service component was every bit as extensive as the shelter component. So we really do not have at the moment, at least it would seem to be, legislation that is properly tuned to meet this particular need. The rent review officer may very clearly indicate that it ought to and find some way to bring it in.

However, until the rent review officers make that decision, we are not in a position to indicate whether or not new legislation ought to be brought in.

I have one concern I can share with my colleague and that is to wonder whether or not, as the honourable member says, tenants of an average age of 83 ought to be put through on an annual basis the rent review process. I would hope that we could come up with another way of resolving that issue and some of my other ministerial colleagues are looking into aspects of it and perhaps we can find some --

The Speaker: Thank you.

AUTOMOBILE INSURANCE

Mr Kormos: To the Minister of Financial Institutions: The government’s new rules for insurance, the ones that the insurance companies paid for, asked for and indeed, if it is up to the government, are going to get, the same ones that ensure you get nothing for your pain and suffering, they are particularly unfair to small business people, to small entrepreneurs, to the self-employed, because those people will be unable to recover loss of profit and losses associated with the disruption of their business. Those same people, under the government’s new rules, could lose their businesses and recover absolutely nothing. How can the minister say that is in any way close to being fair?

Hon Mr Elston: As is not generally the honourable gentleman’s habit, he has sort of oversimplified the situation to the extent that it requires a fairly lengthy response, but let me be as concise as possible.

First of all, this program is designed to provide coverage quickly, provide income replacement for people who suffer injury. It is going to provide supplementary medical and rehabilitation benefits, it is going to provide long-term care: in those latter two categories alone $1 million will be the limit.

In addition to that, people will in fact be able to provide themselves or avail themselves of coverage with excess insurance. There is a market available. We know that many prudent small business people and others engaged in business activity do provide themselves with supplementary insurance above and beyond anything that they get in their automobile. They have requirements with respect to business arrangements where if they take out special loans or whatever, those are also insured by the institution so that the honourable gentleman fails to --

The Speaker: Thank you. Supplementary.

Mr Kormos: If Diogenes were in here with his lamp walking in front of those government benches, he would not even pause only slightly at the seat of the member for Bruce.

Let me run this past the minister. A 40-year-old, self-employed business person who earns $50,000 a year suffers two broken legs as a result of a drunk driver. As a result of the injury, he is disabled from working in his business for one and a half years and his business goes bankrupt. It is projected that it will take him five years to re-establish his business so that he can once again earn that same $50,000 a year.

He would get pain and suffering today. He would get maybe $35,000 for pain and suffering -- lost income, real lost income, of one and a half years times 50.

The Speaker: The question would be?

Mr Kormos: Under the government’s new system, under the auto insurance company’s new system, he would get no pain and suffering, no future income loss. Contrast that with a mere $135,000 to the $210,000 that he would deserve and that would adequately compensate him.

The Speaker: The question?

Mr Kormos: How is that fair? The minister is stealing from that small businessman, is he not?

The Speaker: Order. I appreciate your comment in question form, and please watch your words in the future.

Hon Mr Elston: The honourable gentleman is absolutely wrong. There is nothing there stealing anything from anyone, and for him to suggest that is really mindless. I cannot imagine that the gentleman really intended that to be the way he expressed his concerns.

But let me tell you this, Mr Speaker. Under the current system, that person might have to wait five or six years before he or she was able to collect on the costs of that lawsuit. What we have done is put in place something that is much fairer, much more responsive, much more quickly available to the people than what we have now. You can have income replacement. You can have long-term rehabilitation and supplementary medical care. You can have payments made for long-term care if you are required to be in a convalescent position for some time.

The honourable gentleman fails to mention those benefits and, in fact, he knows that in line with the example that was given to us earlier by the leader of the third party, as he now is, shows that there is a possibility that courts might determine that there is a long-term disadvantage that may have to be adjudicated in the courts and there could be recovery.

But the honourable gentleman cannot stand here in front of us now and just sort of put up a set of circumstances and then say, he being judge and jury on the case all by himself, “This won’t be covered by your situation. This won’t be covered by your program,” because that is not right. We have the safety outlet of allowing the courts --

Interjections.

The Speaker: Order. Perhaps this debate can continue when the legislation is introduced.

MUNICIPAL ZONING BYLAWS

Mr Jackson: I have a question for the Minister of Housing who is also the Minister of Municipal Affairs. On 27 February of this year, legislation was enacted that amended the Planning Act, which declared that certain provisions in municipal bylaws and interim control bylaws which distinguished between related and unrelated persons would have no force and effect under Ontario law. These so-called exclusionary by-laws were a function of the university communities and it was well accepted that they were directed at university students and their housing needs.

Given that the minister’s political party, the government of the day for five years, has promised the students that it would eliminate these bylaws and given that his ministry has had a year to study the implications of this new law prior to its enactment, can the minister please explain why he has had such difficulty in providing a memorandum or some sort of guidance to municipalities across this province that are seeking his advice on the implementation of his own amendments to the Planning Act?

Hon Mr Sweeney: The intent of the legislation is very clear. As the honourable member indicated, any municipality that already has such a bylaw on its books is now faced with the fact that it has no effect. It cannot be enforced. Any municipality that had thoughts of introducing such a bylaw is now being told it would be of no advantage for it do so.

It is pretty straightforward. We have certainly indicated to any municipality that has requested information that that is it. It is fairly straightforward. I would point out to the honourable member, however, as part of his question, although it is probably going to impact to a large extent on university communities, it was not intended just for university communities. As a matter of fact, in some communities the operation of a group home could be impacted by this same legislation and is in fact being impacted by this same legislation.

Mr Jackson: The fact is that municipalities across this province have been getting no guidance, no clear direction and no leadership from the minister’s ministries with respect to how to implement this legislation. In fact, especially in university communities where several councils have had ongoing concerns and staff reports, this evening the council of the city of Waterloo will meet to discuss the staff report. I have a copy of it with me.

That council tonight is going to be considering the following recommendation, that its zoning bylaws not be altered at this time. It goes on to suggest a series of possible solutions, including an age-appropriate designation for residents in this province and possibly establishing student housing zones.

My question is simply this. Is the minister prepared to sit by idly, without giving guidance and support, when specific requests are being made and while councils like Waterloo consider these kinds of recommendations which the minister himself knows are inappropriate?

Hon Mr Sweeney: The clear message that has been given to municipalities is that they cannot discriminate on the basis of family relationship. That is the clear message.

Mr Jackson: It is okay to do it on age.

Hon Mr Sweeney: Just a minute. The question we have gotten back from a number of municipalities is that we are having some problems with respect to noise or with respect to parking. We have indicated to them very clearly they still have the authority, under their bylaw provisions, to deal with a noise factor or with a parking factor, and they can deal with that through their bylaws.

Our legislation does not in any way inhibit them from doing that. We have said: “Go ahead.”

If your real problem is noise, deal with your noise bylaws. If your real problem is parking, deal with it through a parking bylaw. But what you cannot do is the relationship of people within the homes. With respect to age, I suspect that any municipality that tried to make a decision based on age would run up against the charter, quite simply.

PROPERTY ASSESSMENT

Ms Poole: My question is for the Minister of Revenue. In September, Metropolitan Toronto council requested that he approve its plan for bringing in market value assessment to Metro. As the minister is aware, in my opinion, Metro’s last-minute compromise plan is nothing more than pure political expediency of the worst kind.

Can the minister tell me, when Metro sent this plan to him, did it submit to him any analysis, any study, any plan or any indication whatsoever that it has analysed the financial impact on Metro? Second, since I will not get a supplementary, how can we as a government possibly approve this plan without some idea of its impact on Metro?

Hon Mr Mancini: I am glad I have the opportunity to answer the member’s question. It was far more direct than the question I received last week and from a far more interested member. I want to say to my colleague that I understand how sensitive she is about this whole matter. I also want to say to her that the responsibility for whatever impact studies need to be taken lies at the doorstep of the Metropolitan Toronto government, the same government that voted to have such a plan put in place.

As all honourable members know, more than 660 municipalities over the last 10 years have asked for some type of market value reassessment. I keep stressing to the members in the House that it is the responsibility of the duly elected members of either the regions or the counties or the local municipalities to ask for a market value reassessment.

I can see that a lot of the members in the Conservative Party do not care to hear this, but they are the ones, in fact, who passed the legislation in 1979 which gave the municipalities the right to ask for market value reassessment. We are going to consider very thoroughly the proposal that is before us and that has been duly passed by the elected officials of the Metro Toronto government.

MOTION

PRIVATE MEMBERS’ PUBLIC BUSINESS

Mr Ward moved that Mrs Smith and Mr Reycraft exchange places in the order of precedence for private members’ public business.

Motion agreed to.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS

INSURANCE STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1989

Mr Elston moved first reading of Bill 68,

An Act to amend certain Acts respecting Insurance.

The Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House that the motion carry? No?

All those in favour will say “aye.”

All those opposed will say “nay.”

In my opinion the ayes have it. I declare the motion carried.

Motion agreed to.

The Speaker: No further comments’?

Hon Mr Elston: No. but I do have another.

COURTS OF JUSTICE AMENDMENT ACT, 1989

Mr Elston, on behalf of Mr Scott, moved first reading of Bill 69,

An Act to amend the Courts of Justice Act, 1984.

Motion agreed to.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY STATUTE LAW AMENDMENT ACT, 1989 (CONTINUED)

Resuming the adjourned debate on the motion for second reading of Bill 208,

An Act to amend the Occupational Health and Safety Act and the Workers’ Compensation Act.

The Speaker: I believe the member for Brampton South (Mr Callahan) was in full flight. There may be some other members who wish to participate in the debate on Bill 208.

Mr Cousens: I would like to participate in this debate. On Saturday I bought my first Time magazine in quite a period of time. There was George Washington with a tear. I would have to say that there are many people who have tears in their eyes at what is going on in the province of Ontario under this Liberal government.

The beginning of this

article really began to tell me the direction I want to take in my address to the House today on Bill 208: “Government is not the solution. It is the problem.”

I think more and more of us who have been watching the David Peterson government have begun to realize that it is a misplaced group of people who are coming along and giving us all the words, all the rhetoric and none of the action that is going to lead to a long-term solution. What I am seeing is just an increase of words and a decrease in action. In fact, more and more people are talking about the paralysis of this government. We believe there is an increasingly cynical conspiracy to mask the truth.

We saw that last week when neither the Minister of Health (Mrs Caplan) and the Premier (Mr Peterson), in an answer to a question about the hotline for emergency care in an emergency situation, could provide that answer. That is not what I call straight talk. On the one hand, the government has said: “We have an emergency line. There is a hotline. Call it and you are going to get help.” Then the moment that a doctor in Midland made 14 calls, no one went and directed him to it.

By the way, at the same time that that was happening, the Minister of Health would have led the province to believe that the doctor was somehow guilty of malfeasance and poor practice. I do not know of that many doctors who would go and spend four and five hours just trying to find -- I guess I do. The problem is that the Minister of Health does not know that many doctors who are committed to the welfare and wellbeing of the people of our province the way he was.

What we are seeing is a government that acts through symbolism rather than a government that acts in a sense of saying: “Here is what we want to do and here is the meaning behind it. Here is why we have rationalized what we are up to.” Instead, we have to deal with, first of all, what I describe as a very insincere approach by the government in dealing with all the people who are coming to it, because out of the mouths of the Premier and the Minister of Health on that situation last week we were told one thing and we know another.

I feel the same thing is happening when we are dealing with the situation under Bill 208. Bill 208 is an important act amending the Occupational Health and Safety Act and the Workers’ Compensation Act for the province of Ontario.

It is something that has to be taken very seriously by all of us, and I think that when we start looking at what the government has done and is doing, we see it stonewalling; we see it creating a form of confrontation between employers and employees. We see this government, on the one hand, in 1987 before the election, tabling this important legislation and then resurfacing it this year, still not clear on how it is going to deal equitably and fairly with all the parties.

There is a marvellous way in which we can work together, when we see it as a triangle in which the government, along with management, along with labour -- and those are the three corners that make up a strong triangle -- are working in concert and working together, rather than having one of those partners undermining the other.

It is imperative that we in this province have that long-term goal of partnership and trust and building upon relationships over a long period of time so that we are able to build a stronger Ontario and so that we are able to have a stronger workforce so that all partners are somehow leading towards a happy resolution.

When this bill was brought forward and then again represented to the Legislature this year, it reminded me of Neville Chamberlain. Neville Chamberlain and David Peterson have something in common. People wanted to believe Chamberlain was going to make a difference when he returned from his trip across the Channel. They wanted to believe there would be peace in their time. So too, they want to believe the Premier, the Minister of Labour (Mr Phillips) or any other minister in this House who opens his mouth and makes a pronouncement.

People want to believe that what they are saying is truly an expressed and honest reflection of what is going to happen because in their hands lies the power to govern, the opportunity to do something right and, if in fact they are not doing it right, we in the opposition have to make sure they are challenged to do so and awaken their sense of what is right and wrong, to do and to deliver what they should be doing.

Neville Chamberlain and Peterson were not bad people. I very often think that when we are dealing in opposition we lose that sense of personal caring for one another. When you look at Liberals, New Democrats and Conservatives, for the large part we are all here to serve our people, the people in our constituencies, regardless of their political persuasion. Regardless of anything at all, we are there to serve them and the best interests of the province. I happen to believe very strongly that all of us from all parties are genuine in that commitment.

Yet notwithstanding that, the difference in philosophical bent that the different parties bring to the table causes the kind of difference of opinion that leads to confrontation.

I have to believe that when Mr Chamberlain came back from Europe he was at a key moment in history in which things could have been changed. I have to believe that the Premier (Mr Peterson), the Minister of Labour (Mr Phillips) and this government are no less important in our history, the history of the province of Ontario, and that what they do and deliver to the people of this province has significant long-term ramifications.

If this government would begin to accept the level of responsibility that has been laid upon it, with its huge majority, then it might well begin to realize that what it wants to do is not to give false hope and false promises, but to give the people of Ontario a balanced, honest, good government, a government that is going to respect the three corners of the triangle I just described, where government, management and labour work together to make sure that there is not going to be confrontation. I have to believe that the government has lost sight of that kind of confrontational politics by virtue of the way in which it comes forward with bills --

Interjection.

Mr Cousens: I would be pleased to pause for a moment.

Mr Speaker, if there is support from the House, we have a very distinguished visitor from another country here and I would be very pleased if one of my honourable friends would make an introduction.

The Deputy Speaker: Has the member for Dovercourt a request?

Mr Lupusella: I would like to request unanimous consent to introduce a distinguished guest in the public gallery. If such consent is given, I will introduce him.

Agreed to.

Mr Lupusella: First of all, I am very thankful for the approval of my presentation by the honourable member. I know he is a very kind and honourable individual.

I would like to take this opportunity to draw to the attention of the members of this House the presence of a distinguished guest in the public gallery. He is the mayor of my home town in Italy. His name is Gianpiero Nistico, and I would like him to stand up and be recognized.

Remarks in Italian.

The Deputy Speaker: Would the member for Markham resume.

Mr Cousens: I share in the welcome. I think there is just a marvellous opportunity that we have here in the Legislature to meet people from across the world. You start realizing that the link many of us have with our home countries is something that is very good to maintain and it adds to the roots and strength of our multicultural fabric that makes up Ontario. So I thank the honourable member.

I was speaking earlier on Bill 208, the Occupational Health and Safety Statute Law Amendment Act. I really have to believe that there are certain ingredients in the Premier and the government that are lacking and are epitomized by the way in which the government has dealt with Bill 208. What I have seen develop is a sense of betrayal on the part of business and now a sense of betrayal on the part of the New Democratic Party in the way the government deals with this House, with interest groups and with legislation.

We have been talking about this bill for over 15 months and now it would appear the government is prepared to do some thinking on it only because everybody has been raising such concern about the way in which it has been tabled and the way in which it has been dealt with in this House.

I was saying in a historical context that the Premier and his government have a chance to be leaders in history. When they took power there was that great opportunity to be an open, good government. I have to say they have not been open and have not been good. I see it now as a tragic flaw of this government in failing to deal with issues honestly and openly, and then allowing them to fester and become a major issue that becomes a matter of concern to many, many people.

I am looking for a government that will be balanced, fair and responsible. I am looking for a government that will have a progressive social policy, a government that will have some sense of economic conservatism by virtue of the way it saves money rather than just spends it, a government that will have a balanced view, a government with an empathy for minorities and not just giving lipservice to everything.

I believe that this government has no deep feelings about anything and that the deep feelings, if any, are held in the Premier’s office. They are the ones who are coming forward, making policy and causing the rest, the backbenchers of this government to be quiet. The only time they are noisy is when I am in my chair trying to make a point and they start to carp. I venture to say that they are quiet in caucus, where they should be noisy. They are not in there digging away and beating up those ministers and telling them that they should be doing something differently.

What they do is they save up their energy for the Legislature and then come in here like a bunch of penguins and start slapping their desks and making a few comments. I have to say that they will be found guilty by the tribunal of the people when they go before them in the next election, because they have not stood up for the other groups.

Mr Dietsch: Where did you pick him up?

lnterjections.

Mr Cousens: Oh, come on; it is true. All the people in Scarborough; they have more members in Scarborough and they are doing sweet nothing about the Rouge. They do not say anything in the House. I have to assume they are saying nothing in caucus.

As far as Bill 208 is concerned -- I want to get back on that -- they have not done anything to motivate this government to really come clean and open up a proper, full dialogue on what is going on.

What we are dealing with is legislation that begins to change the balance of power that exists between government and the private sector. The private sector, as it stands, has felt a sense of estrangement from this government, an estrangement that has made it feel it had no way of getting through to the Premier and his government. The only thing they could do is begin to rally the troops, to rally all the different associations of which they are members -- I will come to that in my presentation -- the number of people who have finally had to get involved because this government was not listening to normal dialogue.

I think it is horrible. I think there is something fundamentally wrong when you have a government that wants to have a battle with every significant group in our society. They are doing it with the teachers. They are doing it with the hospitals. They are doing it with the insurance industry. Now, with Bill 208, this government is doing it with industry and commerce and trade. They now have the socialists mad at them. They had them happy for a few years.

Mr Callahan: They don’t like to be called that. Don’t call them that.

Mr Cousens: I am sorry; the NDP. I should not call the NDP socialist; they do not like it.

The fact of the matter is that when we look at what Bill 208 is all about, there can be no doubt that there is a need for action when we are dealing with the health and safety of our workforce. That is a given. Any one of us in this House has to know that there are those out in the work force every day, slugging it out, who are facing certain kinds of danger at any time.

It is for us to make sure that we establish an environment that protects their best interests. When you realize that in 1987, the last year for which statistics were available, over seven million days were lost due to occupational accidents and illnesses, seven million days of people who -- it just means that they are home, are not able to contribute to society and they themselves certainly do not feel fulfilled when they are not able to go and do their work.

Many of these incidents that generated lost time resulted in compensation payments, a total of $1.45 billion in workers’ compensation payments in 1987. I guess we have never added up recently the cost of the unfunded liability of the Workers’ Compensation Board in Ontario, but it is over $8 billion right now and growing. It is to the advantage of all of us that if the government is not going to come along and overhaul the Workers’ Compensation Board, then the least we can be doing on the other side of the equation is everything we can to protect the workers who have made this province strong.

The statistics become very alarming when you realize that in 1988 there were 360 deaths caused by occupational accidents and disease. This figure combines the number of traumatic deaths and the Workers’ Compensation Board allowable claims under the industrial diseases that have been acquired in the last two years that resulted in death, 360 people who are no longer part of this province, part of their family, part of the contributors to the future of our province. They are no longer able to be here because they died.

There is a very significant incidence of work-related injury and illness, nearly 2,000 people each working day in Ontario, the result of industrial machinery, toxic chemicals, compounds, repetitive procedures that produce strain. These are all part and parcel of occupational health and occupational hazard, we used to think, but the fact that it has gone on for a long time means that we have to do far more than we have done in the past to address these concerns.

I know that the ministry, ever since the legislation was brought forward in the 1970s, has added to the number of inspectors who go out and inspect and visit work sites. They annually carry out over 69,000 work site inspections. They investigate 3,500 complaints annually. How can they begin to touch them all when there are over 179,000 workplaces?

I happen to believe there is a need to do everything we can to make our workplaces safer. There is a sense behind the bill that I would like to put in balance, and that is to educate employers and employees on the importance of health and safety, and for all of us to understand that emphasis and to make sure it is seen as important, believed to be important. The commitment follows it through so that therefore everybody is committed to good safety practices because they want to be, because they care about their neighbour and because they care about their employer, because of everything.

I know that inspection alone is not the answer. We saw that in the school system. The Minister of Labour (Mr Phillips) was a school trustee and chairman, as I was, for a time, and at one time we had inspectors. I do not think there are too many inspectors any more in the school system. It is too bad because I think on the one hand you can have the -- let’s deal with the analogy I want to make here.

We want to have quality education and therefore we have inspectors going in, randomly testing the system to see that they are producing and performing in the way they are supposed to. I see what is happening in Bill 208 as an opportunity for the government to say, “Once we have installed this, we will no longer have inspectors.” I hope there is no sense on the part of the ministry to withdraw the importance of having inspectors there to look at the 170,000 or so different workplaces.

That is an essential ingredient, to continue to monitor the workplace, as it was and still is, I believe, in the education system where you have inspectors going in and working with the principals and the teachers to make sure their quality and their programs are to a standard that is acceptable.

We are dealing with a bill that has just so much to offer on the positive side, and yet we can deal with some of the negatives that come out of this bill. At that point we start to worry about the power of the joint health and safety committees.

When we see how this bill is being introduced, we know that workplaces with five to 20 workers will be required to have a health and safety representative and some 50,000 businesses will now be covered by health and safety legislation, including service areas such as hotels. What we see happening there is the passing down of responsibility.

I will be interested when this bill comes to committee. I believe the minister has agreed that it will have public hearings and that there will be an opportunity for those in small businesses to comment not only on what is going to happen once the bill is extended to their businesses through the legislation we will pass eventually, but also on to what degree they have been involved in providing for a healthy and safe environment for their employees.

For the first time in Ontario, with this legislation, construction projects with a work-force of 20 or more persons, where the project is to run no longer than three months, will require joint health and safety committees and worker trade subcommittees. This again is the kind of thing that is an extension of responsibility more to the workplace.

The health and safety committees will consist of at least two members and will be required in each workplace employing less than 50 people. The two members of each committee will consist of one management representative and one labour representative. They will have to be specially trained and certified to serve on the committee.

I can see that taking a certain amount of time and money. There is going to be a wrapping-up process to that. I do not see the government participating very much in the cost of that program. In fact, I think the government is saying that this would be borne entirely by each employer, and to that degree, there is some concern about the costs that are going to be brought in. There has to be a sense of responsibility at that point on the part of employers and employees to do this.

There are so many people today who work overtime. I know that in this Legislature many of us are putting in 60- and 70-hour weeks, and management who are not on a salaried basis are putting in far more than 38 to 40 hours a week, hope that some of this health and safety education that has to go on will not necessarily be paid-for time out of the coffers of industry and that the employees will buy into the program in such a way that it is not always a matter of the employer having to pay out.

There has to be a self-help procedure that is part of this. I do not think you can legislate that. It has to be part of the common sense of industry that goes into it. I would be interested in the minister at some point commenting on the way in which industry is going to have to foot all the bill. Is there some way in which those who are part of industry and make it work will contribute not only in the interest and the time they have when they are on duty, but in off-hours time for learning and developing it?

To me, in Canada, for us to develop the kind of future we are capable of developing, I do not think we are ever going to be able to do it just on a 35- or 40-hour week. There has to be far more of the old work ethic come back into this province and into all levels, not only of government but of the workforce at every level.

I understand the Ministry of Labour expects that there will be 50,000 joint health and safety committees established across the province and that there would be a possibility of some 200,000 certified members. I have not seen a great deal on what the province is going to do in the training and education of them. On the one hand, it expects the people to go for this training; on the other hand, I would hope that there is an infusion of some investment by the government to make sure that we train the trainers and that the committees are going to be brought up to a level at which they are able to have the knowledge they require and that we do not just expect industry to cover the total cost.

Now we come to the powers that exist in the bill. The minister has not yet tabled amendments to this legislation, but there are several parts of this bill that really give a tremendous amount of power to the joint health and safety committees. The first thing is to obtain information concerning tests of any equipment, machine, devices, articles, machinery or biological, chemical or physical agents in and about the workplace for the purpose of seeing that all this equipment is safe occupationally.

The next thing the committees would do is to obtain information concerning the identification of potential or existing hazards, whether they are materials, processes or equipment. So they would go through their whole operation with another look, with their eyes having been trained. Having taken a course, they would then be in a position to understand what is needed. Next, they would also look at the health and safety experience, work practices and standards in similar industries.

I see this as an appropriate learning curve in many ways so that the people who are out there and are in industry are going to be far better informed. I would hope that while they are out there looking at other industries they might learn how to become more efficient in their own practice.

The problem we have when we start legislating something that deals with one specific area such as health and safety is that we are dealing with a ministry that did not have too much conversation with the Ministry of Industry, Trade and Technology, and that came through in a number of statements that have been releas