Mav 10, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 779 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Thursday, May 10, 1984 2:30 p.m. [The House met at 2:30 p.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF VISITORS MR. SCHMID: Mr. Speaker, under a special program in co­ operation with International Trade of the Alberta government, the University of Alberta, and CIDA in Ottawa, we are priv­ ileged today to have with us management personnel from around the world interested in Alberta's high technology and expertise in petroleum and natural gas exploration, drilling, production, and transmission. From Ethiopia we have Mr.

Telahun Balcha, who is a project manager for petroleum exploration. From Indonesia we have Mr. Kaswir Badu, who is a lecturer in drilling; Mr. Soekartono Hadiwarsito, head of the personnel department; Mr. Roseli Landjoemin, from the management division of LEMIGAS; Mr. Maridjan, drilling supervisor for LEMIGAS; Mr. Sardjono Hadi Soemarso, a lecturer for the technical training department; Mr. Soeprapto, head of the training division; and Sri Mintradyo Arham, head of acquisition. From Malaysia we have Mr. Zainal Abidin Alang Kassim, head of the Petronas training centre, and Mr. Wan Zakaria,

section head of the production depart­ ment. From the People's Republic of China — in fact from Daqing — we have Mr. Li Pei Wen, of the Daqing foreign affairs office; and from Turkey, Mr. Isik Muzzafer Turgay, deputy director of the geophysics department. They are accompanied in the members gallery by Mr. Mel Blitzer, director of the international briefing centre, University of Alberta; Mr. Robin Coutts, assistant director; Mr. Joe Cor- rigan, assistant to the co-ordinator; and our own trade director for that area, Mr. Michael Sieneke. I should add that Mr.

Mel Blitzer was our co-ordinator in Thailand two months ago, giving 200 officials of the Thai government a course in Alberta's procedures and ways of promoting, and in drilling and all the other activities involved in oil and gas exploration. Mr. Speaker, recalling yesterday's communiques of the western premiers, I'm very happy that these people are here today. They're taking a summer course at the University of Alberta in engineering, procurement, gas processing, manage­ ment and policy, training and manpower, exploration, produc­ tion, and even offshore management.

It is the Alberta Summer Institute for Petroleum Industry Development. I would like to ask our guests to rise and be recognized by this Assembly. head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 19 Fuel Oil Administration Amendment Act, 1984 MR. DROBOT: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce Bill No. 19, the Fuel Oil Administration Amendment Act, 1984. This Bill will amend the current Act in order to provide consistency in the method bulk agents administer the Alberta farm fuel distribution allowance and the domestic heating oil allowance.

It will also provide for a standard clause regarding record retention and will generally update and clarify the exist­ ing Act. [Leave granted; Bill 19 read a first time] MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I move that Bill No. 19 be placed on the Order Paper under Government Bills and Orders. [Motion carried] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. WEISS: Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure today to file five copies of two sets of documents, the first being Opportunities for Medical Practitioners in Northern Alberta.

The second doc­ ument is the Report on Community/Medical Student Inter­ change Meetings, which I deemed to be very successful. Both documents have been prepared by the Northern Alberta Devel­ opment Council. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. MUSGROVE: Mr. Speaker, it is my privilege this after­ noon to introduce 110 very enthusiastic grade 9 students from the Brooks junior high school, which is in the Bow Valley constituency. They are accompanied by teachers Mrs. Delday, Mr. Hartley, Mr. Powell, Mrs. Preston. Mrs. Sekella, Mrs. Tarney, and Mr. Weinmeyer; supervisors Bruce Sekella and Mrs.

Talbot; and bus drivers Mrs. Erion. Mrs. Kuipers, and Mrs. Wells. They're seated in both the members and public galleries, and I ask them to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. MR. COOK: Mr. Speaker, I'm delighted to introduce to you, and through you to other members of the Assembly — in English — a group of students from Saint Mary's University in Halifax and their hosts from the University of Alberta in Edmonton.

It's worth noting that three of those hosts are con­ stituents of mine, and all are active in the Progressive Con­ servative Party. [interjections] They're accompanied by some faculty advisers: Dr. Kay Tudor, from Saint Mary's University in Halifax, and Dr. Susan Jackel, from the University of Alberta Canadian Studies department. It's worth noting that they're here on the Open House Canada program.

I think this kind of program allows us to learn about our differences and respect those differences as well as our similarities; that there is no one way to be a good Canadian and that there are at least ten good ways to be Canadians. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to thank you as well for providing seating in your gallery on short notice. There are students in your gallery and some in the members gallery. I ask them to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. MR. YOUNG: Mr.

Speaker, I'm delighted today to be able to introduce to you and to members of the Assembly 32 students from the Brightview school grade 6 class, who are here with their teacher Mr. Walker and three parents who have volun­ teered their services for this afternoon. The students had the opportunity earlier in the week to visit City Hall and observe the conduct of City Hall. I ask that you welcome them and also that we perform in our usual good manner for them this after­ noon. Would they please rise and be recognized by the House.

780 ALBERTA HANSARD May 10, 1984 head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Natural Gas Incentive Program MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct the first question to the hon. Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. It's with respect to the incentive program for domestic users of Alberta natural gas, which was recently announced by the federal and provincial ministers. Could the minister indicate to the Assem­ bly whether any estimates as to the total cost of the incentive program have been obtained? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr.

Speaker, I can advise the Assembly that the approach taken to the new incentive plan was based upon a net benefits to Alberta producers and to Alberta approach; namely, we were not prepared to move with a pro­ gram unless we were satisfied, in consultation with our industry, that the result of the program overall would not be a cost to the industry but rather that additional revenues would flow as a result of offering some incentives for further purchases of gas. So in fact that is the intention and expectation of the program.

In terms of specific numbers, there have been a number of different assessments given under various scenarios. It is our judgment that the specific calculation is one that it's not appro­ priate to try to enter into as a specific target. Of course it depends very much upon economic factors and upon the take- up by industry to the program. As I said, our assessment is that it will be beneficial. In terms of specific numbers, our judgment is that we will see that in the months ahead, and I think those results will be clear in a very short period of time. MR. NOTLEY: Well, Mr. Speaker, that's very nice.

But could the minister tell the House whether the government, in its various scenarios, has any indication of what the impact would be should existing patterns of production and sales continue in Canada? MR. ZAOZIRNY: First of all, Mr. Speaker, a question of that precision is rather difficult to respond to in the course of the question period. But I suggest that the factors that are inherent are of such a nature that it simply isn't a useful part of the process to try to specify particular numbers.

That hasn't been the approach taken in putting forward this program on our part, the part of the federal government, or in fact the part of the industry. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. The minister is saying that neither the federal government nor the provincial government has any estimates of the cost of this program, assuming there is not an increase in sales; that there are no figures compiled either federally or provincially at this stage. MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, the member is not correct in that statement, and I think he's slightly changing his approach to this.

He just now said: assuming there are no additional sales. His earlier comment was with respect to the general pattern. Based upon conversations with distributors and with par­ ticular industrial customers, we think the pattern we're likely to see is that we are going to see incremental sales arising out of this. So the judgment is that there will be these additional sales. But there is a whole host of circumstances involving the general economic circumstances and the particular circumstan­ ces of various industries. We've set the program up for a three­ year term. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to suggest that I would hope that long prior to that three-year term expiring, there's going to be a fundamental reassessment of the energy policy of this country. That's going to have a pretty significant bearing upon the outcomes of programs of this nature as well. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, could the minister of energy give the Assembly the information that I'm sure his officials have provided the hon. Provincial Treasurer? There must be projec­ tions with respect to a policy of this nature. A 36 cent per mcf drop is going to have some impact on royalties.

Has any pro­ jection with respect to royalty revenue been given to the Pro­ vincial Treasurer? MR. ZAOZIRNY: As I mentioned, Mr. Speaker, there has been a variety of scenarios examined in the course of this, in the normal process of examination of the project. The judgment is that it's not a matter of cost but of the extent of the benefits. I have to correct an implication that flows from the statement of the hon. Leader of the Opposition, when he talked about a 35-cent drop, because that's not accurate.

The program as it's structured involves a 35-cent lessened incentive price for addi­ tional volumes beyond a certain base. So it's not accurate, and we should have the record clear on that. To speak in terms of some 35-cent drop in the overall — that's just not the case. DR. BUCK: The hon. Premier. MR. NOTLEY: The race between the hon. minister of energy and the Minister of Education will indeed be interesting to watch, especially the Member for Edmonton Glengarry in that process. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a supplementary question to the hon. minister.

What is the breakdown of assuming the costs of this 35-cent reduction, where applicable? How much of it will be borne by the provincial government, how much by the federal government, and how much by the producer? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, the program as it's structured — and again I talk in terms of benefits, of gains, rather than the Official Leader of the Opposition's preoccupation with talk­ ing in the negative and of losses. That division is going to occur in the same fashion as it occurs in the normal course with natural gas revenues.

The one added factor that should be outlined and put in place is with respect to the interface of this incentive with the market devel­ opment incentive program that was contained in the original energy agreement. We as a provincial government took the position that sales which are incremental, which are occurring as a result of this incentive rather than would otherwise be the case, ought not to have the market development incentive levy imposed upon them. Ultimately we arrived at an accord with the federal government which recognized that principle intact.

It's a very complicated area, and I think that's about as exten­ sive an answer as could be given in the confines of question period, Mr. Speaker. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Besides the minister's hope that this will increase sales, have any projections been developed by either the federal or the provincial department of energy which could be shared with either the federal finance minister or the Provincial Treasurer, with respect to the fiscal implications of this program? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member is really repeating his earlier question. As I said, a range of

May 10, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 781 projections has of course been undertaken in the normal course of things. When he spoke of the hope of the minister of energy of Alberta, I should add that the project and the program was devised in extremely close consultation with industry repre­ sentatives. That's the approach we take as a government, and that's the approach that was adopted in this instance. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

In terms of marketing strategy, is the minister able to advise if any immediate planning is under way to move beyond an approach aimed at current eastern customers only and focus instead on offering incentives for natural gas conversions so that a number of new customers could be gained, to offset falling sales elsewhere? In light of that question, what specific assessment has been made of the competition from residual fuels? MR. ZAOZIRNY: In fact, Mr.

Speaker, that is one of the expected results and benefits of this particular program; namely, that it will not only encourage maintenance of market share that Alberta gas currently has in the domestic market throughout Canada, but also that it will encourage conversion to natural gas. The program was put in place in recognition of a measure of interfuel competition that exists, whether it be fuel oil, elec­ tricity, or whatever other energy source. We think we've responded in an effective way.

As I said, it was done in con­ sultation with industry, and certainly the initial response that has come forward from prospective and current purchasers has been very gratifying. As I said, I think we'll see the results in the months ahead. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister.

Given some doubts expressed in the past — not recently but in the past — about price reduction in terms of expanding markets, and I quote IPAC from 1979 and a recent 1982 National Energy Board report, could the minister advise whether or not any separate government projections of the estimated market penetration to be achieved by this price reduc­ tion have been commissioned? MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, rather than referring to com­ ments attributed to the Independent Petroleum Association of Canada in 1979 or 1982, I prefer to refer to their projections of 1984, at the time we sat down with them.

They were actually involved in a meeting with me and my federal counterpart, Mr. Chretien, in putting together this program. It's the judgment of that organization that it will have a positive result. I'm sure they have been involved in a measure of calculations of their own. As I said, we are working together with industry, and IPAC shares the view of the government. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary, fol­ lowed by one by the hon. leader of the Independents. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, my question wasn't that.

The question was whether or not the government commissioned an independent evaluation, either federally or provincially, of the market projections, in light of the fact that these projections from private industry have changed. In light of that question and as part of that question, has any specific consideration been given by both governments to the impact of a price reduction for Canadian users on our pricing in the United States' market? MR. ZAOZIRNY: With respect to the former part of the hon. member's question, Mr.

Speaker, while he may have some predilection and preference for a more academic or esoteric approach to these matters, we prefer to deal with industry and the practical projections they put forward. We think that's the best measure. I think we could spend a good deal of question period this afternoon on the area of natural gas marketing in the United States.

I simply offer the comment that one of our primary undertakings in this calendar year is again working with indus­ try to develop a more market-oriented natural gas export mar­ keting policy so that we as a province and our producers are able to achieve the level of sales, and more importantly rev­ enues, that we think is appropriate to maintaining a healthy and viable industry in this province. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister of energy.

It's in light of the fact that in 1983 the large-scale industrial users in eastern Canada decreased their purchases from Alberta by about 10 percent. Just to understand the expectation of the incremental sales, would it be the min­ ister's hope in making this agreement that we recover the 10 percent loss in sales last year, or is there expectation to hold at a level of sales comparable to 1983 or increase it significantly over the actual sales of 1983? MR. ZAOZIRNY: With respect, Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. member is slightly reworking the earlier questions of the hon. Leader of the Opposition.

I respond by saying that we, the industry, and the federal government believe this program has the potential and the likelihood of both maintaining existing levels of sales and increasing that level of sales from what it would otherwise be. MR. NOTLEY: But without any independent projections and with no budget for the program. Bank Credit Policies MR. NOTLEY: Could I direct the second question to the hon. Minister of Economic Development, and perhaps also the hon. Minister of Tourism and Small Business.

It's with respect to two reports: the report this morning of a number of businessmen in High River expressing concern about the credit policies of banks, and a recent study by the Canadian Manufacturers' Association of 50 Edmonton-area manufacturers. My question to the government, to either hon. gentleman, is: what assess­ ment has been made of the performance of banking institutions with respect to lending to small- and medium-sized businesses in this province? MR. PLANCHE: In a specific way, Mr.

Speaker, that's a difficult study to make, simply because it isn't only a question of whether or not the bank's attitude is correct but whether or not the companies in fact were properly constituted in terms of their financial structure and management. However, the larger question is whether or not the banks in Canada are designed under legislation in such a way that they can respond to companies and activities that depend on world markets for their livelihood.

And the larger issue again is whether or not we can do anything to improve that performance so that every time there's a downturn in world markets for whatever we supply, our entire infrastructure in Alberta is not wiped out. We are dedicated to understanding better what the ramifications of all that are and moving appropriately to see that this doesn't recur.

782 ALBERTA HANSARD May 10, 1984 MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the minister. With respect to the survey of 50 Edmonton-area man­ ufacturers, I believe presented on March 26 by the Canadian Manufacturers' Association, Edmonton branch, what specific assessment has the government made of that report, which I gather indicates that some 80 percent of the businesses surveyed are experiencing financial difficulty at the moment? MR. PLANCHE: I'm sorry, Mr. Speaker. That document is not familiar to me. I'd be happy to read it and report back. It would not change what I stated a few minutes ago.

The fact is that we need a financial sector in Alberta that's structured in such a way that it can respond to companies, the majority of which in Alberta are involved in activities where the price and demand for their product is set outside our boundaries. We are price takers, and because of that we don't intend to be penalized in terms of our future activities. So whatever needs to be done in that regard will be done. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the Premier.

Given the minister's answer, what review has the government made and what representation will the government of Alberta make with respect to the question of the adequacy of banking as it relates to western Canada, and Alberta in particular? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, it's obviously a multifaceted question. Part has been answered by the Minister of Economic Development, part has been answered by the Budget Address and the provisions contained therein, and part has been answered by the proposals made by the Minister of Tourism and Small Business with regard to venture capital.

One of the elements we have faced in this area, with rapid development and growth, is the development and growth being financed to a large extent — and some would argue perhaps to too great an extent — on a debt rather than equity basis. As the Minister of Economic Development noted, to the larger degree that we have debt, when resource commodities fluctuate, as they will in world market conditions, then the pressure on the business community is significant. We have a multitude of actions we've taken, that I've mentioned.

In addition to that is the recent support we've given, through the Heritage Savings Trust Fund, for a new banking operation in this province, as well as the support through the treasury branches and other Alberta-based banks. As we noted in the statement when the Treasurer indicated the support of the government for the newly created Bank of Alberta, this does not mean to say that the chartered banks and the "B" banks, as they're called, do not have an important role to play. There is constant communication by me, the Provincial Treasurer, and a number of ministers with the banking and financial com­ munity.

I intend to speak to the Canadian Bankers' Association when they hold their annual meeting here in Edmonton, I believe in June. At that time I intend to summarize many of the statements I'm making now, that have been made before, and that were answered a few minutes ago by the Minister of Economic Development. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the hon. Provincial Treasurer.

Have there been any discussions between the Provincial Treasurer and the treasury branch offi­ cials of this province, especially with respect to the problems faced by some of the smaller business people who feel that, notwithstanding the best efforts of local bank managers, regional and head office managers of the chartered banks are now demanding repayment on less than reasonable terms? MR. HYNDMAN: Mr. Speaker, there is communication on matters of policy in that regard.

Certainly I think the record of performance of the treasury branches over the past 18 months or so, and indeed the reputation of the treasury branches in Alberta, is such that they have demonstrated a sensitivity with respect to their accounts in the province of Alberta — a sen­ sitivity to the pressures and problems faced by small-business men — and have done their best in individual cases.

Recog­ nizing that each particular case is different and, as my colleague indicated, recognizing that the financial makeup of the company and the management is different in each case, I think their reputation and their sensitivity and approach to the Alberta situation, realizing it is a temporary situation as we move toward recovery, has been demonstrated very well. DR. BUCK: A supplementary question. Has the Minister of Agriculture had any matters brought to his concern that farmers are having difficulty this spring getting bank advances to buy fertilizer and seed?

Has that been brought to the minister's attention? MR. FJORDBOTTEN: Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that there is some difficulty with respect to operating capital in the farming community. That was one of the concerns raised by the agricultural community in total, in wanting the grain sta­ bilization Act amended so that a payout would be made and thereby assist with spring planting. The indications that have come to my office have been very few in number, and it is not a widespread concern. University Graduates — Employment MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Attor­ ney General as well as the Acting Minister of Advanced Edu­ cation. In contacting the Faculty of Law of the University of Alberta, I found that 45 out of 168 law graduates this year do not have firms with which they can article. I am wondering if the Attorney General or the Minister of Advanced Education could indicate whether any type of liaison assistance is being made available to these students by the government of Alberta. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, the Law Society of Alberta has addressed that concern to some extent. A similar situation existed last year.

On the basis of representation by at least one constituent of mine, a young man who wanted to commence articles, I discussed the situation with the Law Society and presented a number of ideas the students had had about how the society might be in touch with members of the profession, how they might make suggestions to the students about what they might do on their own account. In the result, numbers of the ones last year who were having the problem — I think not all, but numbers of them — were placed,

whereas that might not have otherwise been the case. As far as this year is concerned. I think it's a bit too early to tell the extent of whatever problem there might be. MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, as the acting minister, I could just add that we understand the students contacted the Law Society, which in turn was in touch with the Attorney General. I cannot answer whether they contacted the Department of Advanced Education at the same time, so I'll take the question as notice on behalf of the minister. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question to the acting minister. What arrangements can be made through the students' assistance programs for persons who have not

May 10, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 783 been able to find a place to article? There will be a call upon them to start paying interest and soon capital payments on their loans. MR. KING: To my knowledge, Mr. Speaker, no such arrange­ ments have been considered by the Students Finance Board, because student finance doesn't operate on the assumption that a professional education guarantees employment in that profes­ sion. For example, we have teachers who, having graduated from the Faculty of Education, are unable to find work as teachers. However, they are able to find employment in other fields.

It is the employment that triggers the repayment of the loan, not employment in the particular field for which a person was trained. Having said that, it is subject to confirmation, which I will undertake with the Students Finance Board. If my answer this afternoon is not completely accurate, I'll respond further to the hon. gentleman tomorrow afternoon. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, could the acting minister indicate what arrangements are made in situations where the person remains unemployed and unable to gain any kind of employment? MR. KING: Mr.

Speaker, individuals can make arrangements with the Students Finance Board on an individual basis. As to the matters that are taken into consideration by the board, I can't answer that question this afternoon. I'll take it as notice. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Could the Acting Minister of Advanced Education indicate, today or in a later question period, whether the unemployment rates among graduates of other faculties such as engineering, dentistry, medicine, or education are somewhat similar to that of the Faculty of Law?

Are a number of those graduates finding it very difficult to find employment at this time? MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware that the information is collected on a faculty by faculty or professional school by professional school basis. I will inquire of the department and take the question as notice. International Trade DR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, my questions are to the Premier, and they come from my reading of the western premiers' con­ ference communiqué on international trade. Were discussions held to ensure provincial as well as federal involvement in the development of trade policies?

For example, will there indeed be provincial participation in the November '84 General Agree­ ment on Tariffs and Trade ministerial conference? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, the position of the western premiers, as reflected by the communiqué, is that there simply can't be national trade policy in a confederation in a federal system without very significant involvement by the provinces. Time and again we've seen that the failure to do so creates an ineffective national strategy for Canada to market its products.

The communiqué at this stage is really a communication to the federal government on a number of items, one of them being the specific reference to the agricultural subcommittee on the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade in the meeting referred to by the hon. member in his question, as well as in further evolution of the trade policy paper issued by the federal government last September. DR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, an additional question to the Premier. Can I take it from this that further representation will be made on more of a personal basis, directed to the federal government?

Perhaps we can put some pressure on them to try to eliminate certain trade barriers such as the matter of import auto quotas and, as mentioned in the document, other non- tariff barriers. Along that line, will representation be made to make it easier for western Canada to access the northwestern United States' markets? MR. LOUGHEED: Yes, Mr. Speaker. That's very much a part of our policy and covers a multitude of product areas in terms of both import and export.

We as a government here in Alberta have taken positions and made representations on a number of these cases where we feel that, for example, if we're selling a product to Japan and they're selling to us, and retaliatory meas­ ures are being discussed by the federal government — we're communicating the trade-off impact much more aggressively than has been the case in the past.

In short, there may be some short-term benefit in an artificial way in central Canada, but the longer term benefit of having a larger market for the part of our country that really can compete in the world marketplace is in the best interest of Canada. DR. CARTER: A further supplemental, Mr. Speaker. Is it appropriate to assume that the western premiers had some dis­ cussions with respect to another impediment that Ottawa has been putting up, and that's with regard to the matter of the operation of the federal investment review agency? MR. LOUGHEED: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there was reference to that.

The way in which it was finally resolved among the west- em premiers was that we believe unnecessary impediments to foreign investment should be removed. I'm going from memory with the quote, but the phrase that was used was: unnecessary impediments to foreign investment being removed. It was the feeling that that particular phraseology would meet the satis­ faction of all four western governments. DR. CARTER: A final supplemental, Mr. Speaker.

Does the Premier really hold out much hope that the federal government is in a position, or is willing and in a state of mind, to entertain some of these kinds of discussions in a positive way? Is there any room for any kind of negotiation there? For example, are they really prepared to discuss an item mentioned in the com­ munique, duty-free zones in western Canada? MR. LOUGHEED: That's very difficult to answer, except that I believe the nature of events that are occurring during 1984 provides an ideal opportunity to communicate the views of western Canada.

We should note that in some of these cases, the views of Atlantic Canada are very similar. So one could not envision more appropriate timing than during the events of 1984 to present a constructive western approach on these issues. In our judgment, that is what occurred as a result of our delib­ erations and the communiqué from the Kelowna meeting of the western premiers. DR. CARTER: Flowing from that, Mr.

Speaker, does the Pre­ mier then really have full confidence that a co-operative approach with respect to a co-operative system dealing with international trade can be developed in western Canada among all four of the provinces? MR. LOUGHEED: Mr. Speaker, we have to accept the fact that there are bound to be differences, either differences of

784 ALBERTA HANSARD May 10, 1984 philosophy by one government compared to another or differ­ ences because of the resource position of one province com­ pared to another. But I generally felt, as we expressed yesterday and as we expressed when we were in Kelowna, that this was one of our best western premiers' conferences. We came out with three communiques that have been constructive and cov­ ered a number of important elements. From my experience, I believe the statements contained in those communiques form a very sound foundation for further work by the four western governments in a co-operative way.

It's this government's intention to do everything we can, wherever we can, to present a combined and united western Canadian position. Trucking Regulations MR. FISCHER: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Transportation, in relation to the regulation of the trucking industry. Truckers in the Wainwright area have strongly expressed concerns and difficulty in obtaining authority to truck across the border in and out of Saskatchewan. Can the minister advise what efforts, if any, are being made to reduce the regulations the trucking industry is faced with? MR. M. MOORE: First of all, Mr.

Speaker, it's important to note that any trucking industry that wanted to haul in both Saskatchewan and Alberta would have to apply to the Alberta Motor Transport Board and to the Saskatchewan board. I'm not aware of the details of which board the firms are having trouble with or if it was both boards.

I can say this about the whole matter of regulatory control over the busing and trucking industries as it is applied by motor transport boards across Canada: we've been working very hard to try to get other provinces and the federal government to move with a responsible regulatory reform position so that many of these people who are involved in the motor transport industry can freely compete with their competitors without having to go through the lengthy and difficult processes of obtaining oper­ ating authority from several jurisdictions that they now do.

We've had some success in getting my colleagues in other provinces and the federal Minister of Transport thinking this way. As a matter of fact, on May 30 there will be a meeting in Ottawa, which I will be attending, to deal further at the ministerial level with the manner in which we believe dere­ gulation should most appropriately occur in Canada.

In addition to that, I've had discussions directly with the Saskatchewan Minister of Highways and Transportation, in an effort to try to see if there isn't some joint provincial co­ operation that can be carried on between our two provinces to break down some of the barriers that presently exist with respect to our truckers moving into Saskatchewan. The initial effort there was to try to get a 20-kilometre free zone on each side of the Alberta-Saskatchewan border, where people who had Saskatchewan operating authority could operate 20 kilometres into Alberta on that authority, and vice versa.

A hearing was held in Lloydminster some time ago and, since that time, the Saskatchewan board and the Saskatchewan government have turned down that concept. We're now working on the possibility of expanding that concept and, rather than the 20-kilometre zone, having certain commodities that can be hauled freely from one province to the other.

Saskatchewan has suggested that livestock and grain would be nice commodities to have moving from their province into Alberta without operating authority in Alberta, because they're anxious to get livestock into Provost and grain into the rapeseed crushing plant in Lloydminster. I've suggested that in return, oil field equipment into all of Saskatchewan from Alberta would be an excellent start. MR. FISCHER: A supplementary.

In view of the fact that Saskatchewan will not allow our truckers to load up and haul out of Saskatchewan back into Alberta and we do allow that for Saskatchewan truckers, have any efforts been made to take this unfairness out of the system? MR. M. MOORE: Those efforts are being made. I think its important that we try everything we possibly can to get other jurisdictions to relax their regulations before we go to the point of putting additional regulations or roadblocks in the way of people in the trucking industry who want to do business in this province from other parts of Canada or indeed the United States.

So our first objective, and the one we're working very hard on, is to try to break down that regulatory control that regulates against our truckers in other provinces. If that fails, obviously we'll have to take a hard look at some of the protectionist schemes that are being used in other provinces, and it may ultimately be that we have to adopt those ourselves. But we believe very strongly that our industry in Canada, the Canadian economy, and certainly the Alberta economy would be served much better by a freer operation of the trucking industry throughout the country. MR. LYSONS: Mr.

Speaker, has the Minister of Transportation ever addressed the licensing of Saskatchewan equipment, par­ ticularly the trucks, when they're working on our highway jobs here in Alberta and are still using out-of-province plates? MR. M. MOORE: I'm not sure what the hon. member is referring to. With respect to gravel trucking, there is a require­ ment that an operator of a gravel truck working in Alberta must have been a resident of the province of Alberta for six months.

That situation is totally different, separate, and apart from the general trucking industry, wherein you haul general freight, livestock, oil field equipment, or whatever, wherein operating authorities are granted for extraprovincial operation. I'm not exactly sure of the import of the member's question. Perhaps he could expand, Mr. Speaker. MR. LYSONS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to expand. It would be the service trucks on the actual worksite where they're doing road construction, building, or whatever, but primarily on the service truck end of it. MR. M.

MOORE: If the hon. member is referring to the actual vehicle licensing of trucks working in Alberta that come from other provinces. I'd have to refer that question to the hon. Solicitor General. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, is the show on the road? MR. LYSONS: Maybe I'll address the question to the Solicitor General — we caught him by surprise. Where the owners are doing contract work in Alberta, serv­ ice trucks are allowed to use Saskatchewan or out-of-province licence plates on their trucks.

I wonder if you could address that particular problem and, if they're doing contracts in Alberta, have them at least have the common courtesy to have Alberta plates on their vehicles. DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that as notice and check with the department on exactly what they are doing at the moment with out-of-province trucks. There has been a problem with

May 10, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 785 out-of-province people staying longer than the six months with automobile plates, for instance, and continuing to use their out- of-province plates. With any luck, with the new computer sys­ tem we'll be able to keep a much better check on out-of- province plates being used for any length of time within the province. But in relation to trucks, there are the interprovincial agree­ ments, and I'll check that and get back to the member. Doctor Shortage — Rural Areas DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the hon. Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care.

Is the minister in a position to indicate how severe the shortage of doctors in the rural hospitals in the province is at this time? MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, that question has come up before in previous sessions in the Legislature, and it's no different this year than it has been in previous years. We do keep in touch with the College of Physicians and Surgeons. Generally there is in the neighbourhood of six to eight regions or com­ munities that do have a shortage of doctors at any given time. It's not that those regions are constant, though; it tends to be a changing situation.

If the hon. member wants an inventory of what those regions are this month, I could get it and report back to him. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Is the minister in a position to indicate if there are any rural hospitals in the province at this time that do not have any full-time resident doctors to serve those hospitals? MR. RUSSELL: That's something I'd also have to take as notice, Mr. Speaker. DR. BUCK: Mr.

Speaker, in the minister's discussions with the College of Physicians and Surgeons, have the two joint bodies looked at any type of incentive or bursary programs to attract young medical graduates to go to some of these under- serviced areas? MR. RUSSELL: Yes, that is an issue that has been given some attention, Mr. Speaker. There seem to be two plans considered by other provinces as well as ours. One involves a bonus system which is layered on top of the standard fee for service, as an incentive for physicians to practise in the rural areas.

The prob­ lem with that is that in Alberta many of the rural-based general practitioners are already among the highest income earners in the medical profession, so that would merely be an added bonus for them. The other method, of course, is to try to find some program of start-up incentive or a rotating program with an incentive built into it, and that's something we've been looking at for several months. DR. BUCK: On that very point, Mr. Speaker, to the minister.

Have there been any discussions with the educational institutes as well as the college, to look at some type of bursary program to assist medical students to go through the university and then back to these underserviced areas, as they do in other bursary programs? MR. RUSSELL: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I believe officials of the department have had those kinds of discussions with the deans of medicine. I'm not certain of that, but I have the impression those discussions have taken place.

In talking about this problem with some rural citizens, they've expressed some concern that they would be on a rotating basis of continually being serviced by fresh graduates who might change every few months or so. In their view, they would like something more permanent than that. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: Might we revert briefly to Introduction of Special Guests? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS (reversion) MR. FISCHER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my pleasure today to introduce to you and to members of the Assembly 14 grade 10 students from the Irma high school.

They are accom­ panied by Mrs. Elsie McRoberts and Miss Raye EIrick. It is an added pleasure for me today to introduce this group of students, because they are my friendly neighbours from my home town of Irma. They are seated in the public gallery, and I ask them to rise and receive the welcome of this Assembly. MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the questions and motions for returns, we advise that the government is prepared to accept Question 165.

I move that questions 171 and 172 and motions for returns 174 and 175 stand and retain their places on the Order Paper. [Motion carried] head: WRITTEN QUESTIONS 165. Mr. Notley asked the government the following question: With regard to the meeting of the Water Resources Commission in Lethbridge on August 23, 1983, attended by the Minister of the Environment and combined with an inspection of irrigation rehabilitation projects by Northwest Irrigation operators: (1) in addition to the Minister of the Environment and the members of the Water Resources Commission (

a) what other members, agents, representatives, or employees of the government attended the meeting of the commission and, in each case, in what capac­ ity, and (

b) what other persons attended the meeting of the com­ mission and, in each case, in what capacity; (2) (

a) what members, agents, representatives, or employ­ ees of the government participated in the inspection of irrigation rehabilitation projects and, in each case, in what capacity, and (

b) what other persons participated in the inspection of irrigation rehabilitation projects and, in each case, in what capacity; (3) what were the primary topics of discussion at the meeting of the Water Resources Commission; (4) at any point during the course of the meeting or the inspec­ tion, was the desirability and/or feasibility of cross-border transfer of water from Alberta to the United States dis­ cussed?

786 ALBERTA HANSARD May 10, 1984 head: MOTIONS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 214. Moved by Mr. Cook:

Be it resolved that the Assembly encourage the government to further develop the electrical engineering and computer science departments at Alberta universities to support the new and grow­ ing electronics industry. MR. COOK: Mr. Speaker, I'm delighted to be able to present to the House this afternoon a motion relating to electrical engi­ neering and computer science. I think the motion is timely.

We have an economic strategy paper being presented to the province in June, and the province and the government have to consider economic approaches to make sure our existing industries are efficient and for the cre­ ation of new technologies and jobs. At the same time, we have the education curriculum being reviewed by the minister and the Department of Education, and we have also had a science policy in the form of a discussion paper presented to the people of Alberta by the Minister of Economic Development. Mr. Speaker, I believe in Alberta, its future, and its people.

I think we have a very exciting prospect in front of us, if you think about it, Alberta is very well positioned in the world. We're close to the west coast of the United States, we have tremendous markets in the Pacific Rim countries, and we have very talented and resourceful people as well as our bountiful natural resources. As well, we have in Alberta three very fine universities providing conventional education, as well as Ath­ abasca University.

Those three universities have the capability to provide high-quality education in computer science and elec­ trical engineering, in the case of the University of Alberta and the University of Calgary, and a good program beginning at the University of Lethbridge, I understand. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to begin by thanking the department chairmen of computing science and electrical engineering at the University of Alberta. Dr. Lee White and Dr. Bob James. I've spoken to both of those gentlemen, as well as the Dean of Engineering, Dr. Peter Adams.

Those gentlemen are all excited about the prospects of the province but somewhat frus­ trated by the barriers being placed in their way. it's worth noting that Bell-Northern labs here in the city of Edmonton has begun its operations, with almost 100 electrical engineers on staff now. If you go out to the Bell-Northern labs research facility in Mill Woods, the place is humming with activity. They're selling ideas and products worldwide in the telecommunications field, and that's the kind of new industry that is being created to replace old industries that are no longer viable.

I think many of us in the Assembly have faced the closures of plants in our constituencies. I had a meat packing plant close in the area; not in my constituency directly, but many of my constituents are employed in plants like that. With the loss of that employment because of new efficiencies in that operation, we have to find alternatives. Mr. Speaker, Bell-Northern labs is just such an alternative. In a speech a little while ago, the national president of Bell- Northern labs noted that there is an extraordinary shortage of trained computer scientists and electrical engineers.

He advo­ cated that graduates of electrical engineering or computing sci­ ence not go directly into the industry. I thought that was kind of strange, because he has a shortage of people. He said: no, what we need is people to go on to graduate studies to pick up their masters and PhDs, so they can in turn reinvest their energy into new students and expand the base. He's basically saying, much like a farmer would say: you can't eat your seed grain over the winter: you have to plant it, wait for a new crop, and harvest that. He has a longer term view. I think the agricultural analogy fits well.

The point that the president of Bell-Northern labs in Canada is making is that we have a shortage of people. We have only about 180 people teaching electrical engineering in western Canada, and we have a tremendous demand for that area of discipline. Mr. Speaker, we have a shortage of teaching staff and a shortage of students at the University of Alberta. That's the university I'm most familiar with, so I'll use these statistics as my source.

Last year at the University of Alberta, 85 students applied to electrical engineering, were qualified to be admitted, and could not be admitted — 85 students who could go on and take high-quality jobs here in the province. There is no shortage of job opportunities for them, and they were turned away. And there will be 85 students or more turned away next year. If they were to get the education they demand and are able to receive or could absorb, they would be contributing to Alberta in a new and exciting technology field.

Last year 120 students were turned away in computer science, and they too were qualified, had the ability, and could not be admitted because of shortages of space and staff. At the University of Alberta, we have a high-quality pro­ gram, relatively speaking, but the department chairman makes this case to me. They put through about 4,000 students who received courses in computer science last year with a staff of about 20 people. That's about 200 students to one professor; that's incredible. The student/staff ratio is so high that the professors cannot invest very much of their time in individual students.

Consequently the quality of the education is lacking a little bit. it's fair to point out that this problem is not unique to the University of Alberta; in fact it's right across North America. You go to any university, and there is such a worldwide short­ age of trained people in this discipline that you will find this problem anywhere. But we're probably not doing as much as a lot of our competitors to increase that number of staff, much like the farmer would keep developing the seed grains so he would have a good crop maybe a year later. Mr.

Speaker, I think a lot of members might ask the question, why should we be concerned? Electrical engineering and com­ puter science are some interesting but somewhat exotic tech­ nologies, and they're not really going to affect me. I don't think that's true. A revolution is taking place worldwide. In the galleries this afternoon, Mr. Speaker, we saw a group of management personnel taking

part in a course offered by the University of Alberta, the petroleum industry development pro­ gram. It is sponsored by the engineering department at the University of Alberta. It brings to this province people from all over the world who have drilling industry experience. They are managers in that industry. The Minister of International Trade introduced to us students, managers in the drilling indus­ try, from Thailand, the Philippines, and China, just to mention a few countries. They've come to the University of Alberta because we have forefront technology.

In this province we are on the cutting edge of technology in that area of expertise, and because of that people are coming from abroad to our province. Mr. Speaker, the Dean of Engineering made the case to me that those people will go back home and will place orders with our industry to procure supplies, services, and personnel. These people are managers in their national oil companies or the oil companies active in their home countries.

They will go back home and say: I took a course at the University of Alberta, and I know those guys in Alberta have the capability to do a certain job: I am going to pick up the phone or place a cable and get a supply or service. In fact that's happening. Dean Adams from the University of Alberta notes that a lot of orders have been

May 10, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 787 placed by graduates of this university. In fact they called the mineral engineering department and asked for some information — how do I get hold of so and so, because on one of our excursions I saw that that kind of technology is available; we have a problem back home, and I'd like you to solve it for me. Mr. Speaker, in Calgary the energy industry relies increas­ ingly on a very sophisticated geophysical resource base that requires vast amounts of knowledge.

Vast amounts of data are gathered studying the geological structures, and they are pin­ pointing exploration opportunities for their oil companies. That requires trained computing science graduates to gather that data, process it, and interpret it. Mr. Speaker, computing science and electrical engineering are important in the energy industry. We heard from my bench- mate the hon. Member for Highwood how important computing science is now on the farmstead. Farmers are relying more and more on data bases and computers for the efficient application of pesticides and fertilizer. Mr.

Speaker, the agricultural indus­ try is developing a greater reliance. Why is that? It's because we have limited resources, and we're trying to use them in the most efficient way, be they fertilizer or pesticides in that case. Mr. Speaker, I went through the offices of Chandler Ken­ nedy, architects in Calgary, a little while ago. Gerry Kennedy was good enough to spend about an hour with me and he took me through his drafting department. By the way, I might make this note in passing. Chandler Kennedy is the largest architec­ tural firm in Canada, and it is headquartered here in Alberta. Mr.

Speaker, they have offices in London, England, and in the United States. They have a computing science requirement for their drafting. He told me about a client in Denver who wanted to build a building. Gerry was in Calgary and the client was in Denver, and they had a conversation over the telephone and with a computer. The client would say: well, I think the building should be a little taller in this area, or I would like to change this feature. Gerry would say, fine, and would punch into the computer a few changes in the components, and the computer would graph out the changes right away.

The client would say: yes, that looks pretty good; that's what I want. Then he would say, could you change another feature? And Gerry would punch into the computer the components, and right away it would be drafted. Mr. Speaker, that company is competing in a worldwide market. He's providing services in Europe, he's selling his services in the United States, and he's selling his services abroad and in the rest of the country. He is competing against other architectural firms in the rest of the world, and he's doing it out of offices here in Edmonton and in Calgary, providing jobs for young Albertans.

I think that's tremendously exciting. It gets around tariff barriers and national boundaries. You don't have to worry about importation quotas. You just pick up the phone and send the information to your office in Denver. No customs people are involved in that. Last year this province exported $100 million worth of engineering services in pre­ cisely this kind of fashion. I get that statistic from the throne speech. It's a new industry we're developing, and we are com­ peting worldwide. That's our market. Mr.

Speaker, what I'm trying to say is that computing science and electrical engineering are important to the energy industry, the agricultural industry, the construction and engi­ neering industries, as well as the creation of a new technology that will provide other jobs in electronics. I think this kind of activity is absolutely vital for Alberta to stay at the forefront of technology.

What we are saying then is that in order to be in the forefront of technology in areas of existing strength — for example, energy, agriculture, and engineering — we need to have uni­ versities in Alberta that are in the forefront of technology.

We need young Albertans to become equipped with the skills to compete worldwide, just like Gerry Kennedy is doing in Denver or in London, just like our agricultural industry is doing so well with the efficient use of its scarce resources of pesticides, fertilizer, and energy in keeping their input costs down, just like our geophysical people are doing in the search for new oil and gas in the province. We're creating new technologies; we're selling those worldwide.

On afternoons like today, we have guests in our galleries coming here to Alberta to learn about what we're doing, so they can go back home and place orders from Alberta supplies and Alberta companies, so they too can join the search for oil and gas worldwide. Mr. Speaker, that provides jobs. I want to review a little bit of the rationale behind this motion. Mr. Speaker, I began my brief remarks by saying we have the development of an economic strategy paper in the works right now.

The Minister of Advanced Education, the chairman of the economic planning committee of cabinet, and the Minister of Economic Development are a three-man team working on that paper with the Premier. That paper should be presented either to this Assembly or to the province in June. So it's timely that these considerations we're talking about this afternoon are put before the Assembly so they might be more fully considered in an economic strategy paper. I noted that in Edmonton and Calgary, there are new indus­ tries and companies developing, like Bell-Northern labs.

There are new job opportunities in an electronics and computing sci­ ence industry. Thirdly, I noted that in order to remain com­ petitive in existing areas of present strength, like agriculture, energy, geophysics, and the construction industries — I gave as the example the Chandler Kennedy Group in Alberta selling their products worldwide — we need a strong technical back­ ground. Mr. Speaker, I noted that at the University of Alberta, and the same is true of the University of Calgary, we have a shortage of staff.

We don't have enough staff to teach all the people who are qualified to be admitted to computing science or elec­ trical engineering. The staff we have are doing yeoman service. They're teaching many more students, on a per-staff basis, than any other department at the university. I'm a little bit worried about the quality of education that can be offered under those kinds of pressures.

I noted that there was a high demand by students, that 85 students were turned away from electrical engineering last year, that new students will be again this year, and that 125 qualified students in computing science were turned away by that department. That is the case at only one university. It's being repeated at other universities. Mr. Speaker, we've also noted that there's a high demand by employers for graduates in this kind of discipline. People who come out of computing science or electrical engineering do not face the same unemployment challenges that graduates of other fields do.

In fact it's very much the reverse. Companies like Bell-Northern labs have a tough time finding qualified staff to do the research in their areas of operation. That means we've placed an artificial barrier on the development of new tech­ nologies in this province, because companies like Bell-Northern labs cannot expand, cannot sell their products worldwide, and cannot compete in a market and bring back dollars and jobs for Alberta. Mr. Speaker, this is an industry I think is very exciting. It's clean industry; it's high-value industry.

It's not something like trying to sell coal or grain or sulphur, where you have a very bulky product that's very difficult and very expensive to trans­ port. What we're talking about is knowledge and high-value,

788 ALBERTA HANSARD May 10, 1984 intensive industry that is easy to export. You're exporting ideas. We noted that when you're doing that kind of exporting, you don't run into the same barriers that you face in other areas of activity. If you're going to sell a set of architectural plans for a new building in Dallas or Denver, you don't have to go through the U.S. customs office. You pick up the phone, you have the computer at the other end answer the phone, and it takes down the set of blueprints. It's a way of getting a good industry — knowledge-intensive, very much labour-intensive — here for Alberta. Mr.

Speaker, it's also worth noting that we need to do more work in technology transfer. People in our areas of present strength, like agriculture or the energy industry, need more and more to become familiar with the technologies available to them to become more efficient. We don't have enough people to do that, to equip those companies with the expertise and the knowl­ edge so they can become more competitive. There's a lot of research going on at universities that those companies are not aware of.

But the universities don't have the time to say: you in geophysics, are you aware that this new idea is available to you? Technology transfer resources are not available. Mr. Speaker, I think there are some other questions that we as legislators ought to be asking ourselves. Last night at dinner, the Premier made this case to some party supporters. The Pre­ mier said we have to examine the curriculums at Alberta uni­ versities and colleges and inject new courses and new technologies into the course of studies for our graduates. What did he mean? I'll give you the example of Stanford in Cali­ fornia.

In order to pick up a degree at Stanford — and now this is true of many universities in California — you must be computer literate. That means that if you're going to study French or English — just to give you a wild example of this — you must have a background in computer science. Because rapidly now, you are a functional illiterate in society if you're not able to use a computer.

If you're not able to access data banks in the securities industry — just to give an example for the Member for Edmonton Whitemud — if you don't know what's going on, you're going to have a tougher time trying to sell products to your clients. That knowledge is stored in data banks, perhaps in New York or Toronto, and if you want instant access to it, you can have it by picking up your telephone and plugging into it. But if you aren't able to do that, your client might find someone who is able to give him better information.

If you can't keep up with this area of expertise, you are going to be functionally illiterate in the technological society we're rapidly creating. It's not something off in the future, Mr. Speaker; it's happening right now. In Ontario we're seeing the development of a new Silicon Valley in the Ottawa valley, in the Kanata area just around Ottawa. Some of us who were at the Conservative leadership convention last year might have walked around Ottawa and said: holy cow, government is a growth industry; look at all these buildings. To a large measure, that's true.

But a lot of those buildings in downtown Ottawa and in that area are being fuelled not by government tax dollars but by research dollars. In those centres there are computer software companies and computer chip manufacturing companies, and that activity is taking place in the Ottawa valley. Mr. Speaker, another good example of that activity in Ontario is the Sir Wilfrid Laurier University. That university has developed a national and international reputation in the design of software. I'm not very knowledgable about computer science, but software and hardware are buzzwords.

Hardware simply means the actual equipment, the computer, and software is a set of instructions that makes the computer work in the way that you want it to work. At Sir Wilfrid Laurier, they're teaching people how to program computers and how to sell those computer programs that have special application to indus­ tries like agriculture or geophysics or perhaps forestry. So a graduate of that university can instruct a computer to follow a certain process, gathering data, filing it, organizing it, and then manipulating it so the geophysicist can get data that's worth­ while to him or her. Mr.

Speaker, Japan graduates three times as many engineers per capita as we do. In this country we graduate almost as many lawyers as engineers. [interjection] More, the hon. Mem­ ber for Cardston notes. I think lawyers are like beavers; they just dam things up and prevent the flow of information or activity. I don't want to offend any lawyers in the audience, but that's their principal function — delay. When you think about it, surely that's not a very productive function. I think we should be turning that around.

With due respect to the legal profession, we should be educating and graduating many more engineers than lawyers. Japan is our principal competitor in this area, and they're graduating three times as many engineers as we do. I think our record really bears serious examination. in the remarks to this point, I've tried to argue that we have a need and an opportunity and we have the people and skills to do something about it. I want to talk about that third part, what we can do. Mr. Speaker, I think the conclusions are fairly self-evident.

Briefly, I think we need to increase the number of professors on staff at our computer science and electrical engineering departments at the University of Alberta and the University of Calgary. We also need to provide other trained staff for our technical schools and colleges so they too can begin to share that knowledge with people going to agricultural colleges at Olds, Lakeland, or wherever students may go, because they are going to need this knowledge. We need to increase the amount of support for our graduate students. Right now a grad student can qualify for about $8,000 a year.

If they're married — and a lot of them are, because they've gone through school, picked up a bachelor's degree at the outset, and then they've gone on and acquired a family and probably have a youngster or two. They realize all of a sudden that they could do a whole lot more if they could get a little more training. They go back to school, but they're encumbered with some extra pressures. Mr. Speaker, we don't provide the support for our graduate students that most other places do. I'll give you a quick example of that. I went down to the University of Washington a month ago.

They have 25,000 students, exactly the same size as our University of Alberta. Out of that population we have 3,000 graduate students; the University of Washington has 8,000, almost three times as many. In the student mix they have three times as many grad­ uate students as we do. Why is that? In Washington state they are working hard on things like aircraft technology, electronics for defence industries, and activities like that. They need those trained, very highly skilled people. We just haven't appreciated that yet. We have to get those very same kinds of people.

If you go to a university in the United States and go into grad studies, you're going to find that you're eligible for a lot more financial support from companies or from the government than you can get here. [interjection] It's because tuition fees are very high, as the hon. Member for Cypress notes. But if you're a grad student, those same fees are rolled back, because you're often teaching. The university does not charge tuition fees to grad students, in lieu of that grad student providing teaching duties to the university. On top of that, the university will provide a small salary.

In Canada it's very small; in the United States it's much larger. That difference is the difference between the 2,000 or 3,000 students we have in grad studies

May 10, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 789 at the University of Alberta and almost three times the number at the University of Washington. Mr. Speaker, we need to increase the number of professors, and we need to increase the aid to graduate students. We also need to increase the number of undergraduate stu­ dents. As we noted earlier, 85 electrical engineering students that were qualified were turned away, and 125 computing sci­ ence students that were qualified to be admitted into that pro­ gram were turned away. We also noted that graduates of those programs do not have trouble getting jobs.

We are in effect cutting off our nose to spite our face, because we're denying people the opportunity to get the education to get the jobs that are available. Mr. Speaker, we also need to increase the space at all three universities in Alberta. I hate to lay on hon. members the bill that might be involved in that, but I'll give you an idea of what we're talking about. The electrical engineering department at the University of Alberta has a proposal before the board of governors to build a $40 million building.

That's what's going to be required to provide the space to house the staff and students at current levels, and that would admit all the students that were qualified. To do the same thing for computing science, to provide the space for the staff and all the students that were qualified to go into computing science, would require another $40 million capital investment. We're talking about an $80 million investment at one university to provide the staff and space for the students that are qualified.

As I noted, I think our failure to do this is going to mean that our industries of agri­ culture, energy, and construction, among others, are going to suffer, because they're not going to be in the forefront of technology, keeping their industries efficient compared to their competitors. Mr. Speaker, more than just training those specialists we've been talking about, I think we have to do what Stanford is doing. I think we have to do what the universities in California are doing.

We have to say to every student coming into the universities: at the end of four years, you must have taken several courses in computing science in your course of studies; you must be able to use a computer, because if you're an agrologist or an engineer, you're going to need that expertise. Mr. Speaker, my time has run out. I simply want to conclude by saying this is a very timely resolution. I ask for the support of hon. members. I think it's important for the long-range future of the province. Thank you. MR. MUSGREAVE: Mr. Speaker, in speaking to this motion today, I'd like to deal with it in two parts.

Unfortunately the hon. Member for Edmonton Glengarry has stolen most of my material, but I do have some comments I'd like to make. There's no question that the electrical engineeering and computing [science] departments are important basic elements for micro-electronics and software knowledge in Alberta. In 1982 electronic industry sales in Alberta were $350 million, in 1983 $410 million, and in 1984 are projected to be between $550 million and $600 million. We do have a strong base of talent in these disciplines in Alberta.

We have 39 professors at the University of Alberta and 14 professors at the University of Calgary. More important, at our universities there is now an increasing number of scientists with world-famous reputa­ tions. For example, at the University of Alberta we have Dr. Henry Baltes, a Henry Marshall Tory professor, and Dr. David Hill, who's a Killam resident fellow at the University of Calgary. Our universities are hoping they will have a strong commitment to establish education and research programs of international stature that will relate closely to the industrial needs of the province.

Earlier this year the province brought to Alberta the secretary of state for science, Dr. Berlinquist; the president of the National Research Council, Dr. Kerwin; the president of the Science Council of Canada, Dr. Smith; and Dr. McNabb, pres­ ident of NSERC, who makes grants to our universities for research programs and projects. Some of the MLAs were able to meet with these gentlemen while they were visiting here. The purpose of their visit was primarily to educate them as to what Alberta was doing in the area of research and develop­ ment.

It also helped us learn about areas where they thought federal help and objectives of national interest could be achieved with our support. As the hon. Member for Edmonton Glengarry said, it is apparent that high-technology development needs a strong university sector sympathetic to industrial development. As he mentioned, areas such as California or Boston come to mind. I'd like to quote from an

article written by Warren T. Brookes in a magazine called Imprimis. The

article is headed Mind, Not Money, Drives the Economy. He's speaking about the state of Massachusetts. Ten years ago Massachusetts was in a stagnant position. It was one of the poorest states in the nation. Now it employs "64 per cent of its adult population (the highest of any state or nation in the world)". Its unemployment rate is 5.8 percent, and in the so-called high-tech area, the unem­ ployment rate runs between 2 and 4 percent. Their state's per­ sonal income, after stagnating down to the 47th lowest growing in the United States in 1978, "is now among the top 10".

And, significantly, our greatest economic and employment growth is not in industrial production, or even in the hard­ ware side of the computer business, but in the software, or information . . . side. What is important about the Massachusetts experience of course is that it is the result not of raw materials or physical resources, of which we have pathetically (little), but wholly a function of our knowledge industry, our university and research centres. Mr. Speaker, just to return to the Alberta scene briefly, we in Alberta have taken up the challenge.

We have established a Microelectronics Centre at the University of Alberta, which is funded by the Department of Industry, Trade and Commerce for approximately $200,000 a year for live years. As the hon. member mentioned, we know all about student requirements that exceed the supply of professors in our computing science and electrical engineering departments. Canada and our prov­ ince are behind in establishing a micro-electronic software industry.

But again, under the guidance of the Alberta Research Council and in co-operation with the Department of Economic Development, we have prepared a proposal for the establish­ ment of a microchip foundry in Alberta, because many people in our province are seriously concerned about the availability of chips. Some people have even had to go to New Zealand to obtain them. The Department of Economic Development is developing a business plan to determine whether or not we could create a foundry in the province. These are just some of the highlights of what can happen in our province. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to deal with the second part of my remarks. This is on the national scene and is where I will differ slightly from the previous speaker. Much of what I have to say was said by Mr. Walter Light, chairman and chief executive officer of Northern Telecom, at the annual meeting of their company on April 26, 1984. In his opinion, the shortage of trained people could do more in the long run to undermine the future of the North American economy than the activities of our international competitors, the size of the deficit in both

790 ALBERTA HANSARD May 10, 1984 countries, or the level of interest rates. In his opinion, you could combine all these things together. The emerging source of basic economic strength for any society is not capital investment or natural resources. It is brain power. Our industrial society is brain-intensive. It centres on knowledge which creates sophisticated products and manufac­ turing processes while framing the technique of management itself. In his opinion, the industrial future of Canada, as with any other country, will depend upon the quality of its man­ agement in industry and government.

The quality of manage­ ment in turn depends upon the quality of education available. Yet some of our greatest schools are faced with inadequate or obsolete facilities and equipment, particularly in the key science and engineering disciplines. There is an increasing, and increasingly critical, shortage of the brightest young minds choosing to become teachers and researchers. Universities face the constant threat of declining revenues and financial support from government, business, and alumni to further exacerbate an already desperate situation.

Many universities in Canada are operating beyond maximum capacity and turning students away. Engineering facilities and classes are grossly overcrowded at the undergraduate level. There is a continuing shortage of qualified engineering profes­ sors and still a low enrollment at the graduate level. Right now there are a hundred unfilled faculty positions on the staffs of engineering schools in Canada. Almost everything that can be said about Canada's engi­ neering schools — overcrowding, poor equipment, lack of staff, and lack of funding — can be said about the country's business schools.

At last count there were more than 200 approved faculty positions in Canadian business schools going begging for the same reasons. Bright people are not going into teaching. There are not enough PhDs being graduated, not enough funds, and poor facilities. As with our engineering schools, business schools are reaping the harvest of a decade of neglect. Many of them have teaching classes of 150 to 200 persons. Every school has quotas and often accepts less than 20 percent of the applicants. The most recent figures indicate that less than 20 doctorates a year are being granted by our business schools.

What can be said about the engineering and business schools can probably be said, to a greater or lesser degree, about almost every discipline being taught in Canada. And that is the real problem. Canada is not just short of engineers. It is facing a potentially crippling shortage in almost every body of knowl­ edge we will need in the next two decades. And the next two decades could decide whether Canada survives as a modern, viable, international, industrial power in the information age. Almost all the discussion we have heard in public and in the House has been about the shortage of engineers.

We heard more of it this afternoon. This has created the impression that if we just produce more and better-trained engineers, we will have solved our major industrial crisis in human resources. In the opinion of Mr. Light, who heads one of the most successful companies in the western world, nothing could be further from the truth. It is not only the quality and quantity of our engineers that is crucial to our future success; it is also the quality and quantity of our writers, philosophers, social scientists, political scientists, psychologists, historians, mathematicians, account­ ants, and many others.

All disciplines are important to the future, even if some are more important than others at a given time. While engineers predominate in Northern Telecom's cen­ tral research laboratories, they have representatives of 78 dis­ ciplines from more than 350 universities. The problem is not a shortage of graduates from any particular discipline. Canada simply has a crisis. One could go further and say it is a crisis in its education system. These are problems that have to be solved. Mr.

Light puts the blame on business in general, because it has largely chosen the comfortable route of supporting, mainly quite uncritically, university financial appeals and assuming it is government's responsibility to tackle the larger problem. The universities are to blame also, for they blithely assume that each has a divine right of growth and glory in all disciplines. Each is pursuing its individual growth objective with little, if any, acknowledgment of the national interest or the national ability to financially support their individual and collective ambitions.

It is not apparent to me that universities are establishing priorities within their own walls, let alone between and with other universities. Finally, we as parents also have to shoulder some of the blame, because we feel that paying less than one-fourth of the cost of university instruction is a fair share of the cost of maintaining world-class universities. We should know that even in the most socialistic of societies, you get only what you pay for, either when you pay as a direct fee or through taxes. Obviously the problem doesn't leave itself to an easy, quick solution.

It involves the fact that education — and this is where we come to that old Canadian stumbling block — is a provincial responsibility. This alone tends to balkanize the thought process of Canadian university leaders who are more or less forced to act on a province-first basis, except on those occasions. Mr. Speaker, when they are making national appeals for financial support. The problem involves the concept of so-called uni­ versal higher education, including hometown universities, all at less than cost.

It concerns the quality of university admin­ istration and the throttling stranglehold that faculty tenure has placed on the quality of university teaching. As a businessman, it was questionable to Mr. Light that 26 million people can continue to afford 10 different provincial educational systems defined and administrated by 10 different educational authorities in 10 different provinces. In his opinion, we simply are not that rich. Such a condition may well have been a proper environment in 1867, when knowledge was developing at a leisurely pace in a smaller, primarily agrarian, society.

But in 1984, when knowledge is doubling every seven years and our future welfare as a nation depends upon our success as a technologically-advanced international trader — and our Premier was very clear about this point earlier this week — it is self-defeating. We cannot continue to trade and compete as 10 provinces. We must compete as one nation. [Mr. Gogo in the Chair] Success in world trade, trendsetting innovations in tech­ nology, and new concepts in international marketing do not arise phoenix-like from the ashes of academic mediocrity.

They come from the minds of the brightest and most creative people, who in turn gravitate to the educational institutions that chal­ lenge them. The schools in turn must lead and not be led by business and government. We seem to have forgotten the simple but compelling truths in our search for universal education. All minds are not created equal, and all minds do not develop equally. Therefore we must develop a university system that provides for and develops the intellectual elite, as well as the rest of us.

When we look at our universities, we often do not see their administration; we tend to look past them to the faculties. This is a great mistake. University administrations are, in many parts, causes of the total problem. For too long, university administrations have been temporary parking spots for tenured staff for whom there was no immediate faculty role. This has

May 10, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 791 meant short-term service from nonprofessionals with little, if any, interest or incentive to perform in a key function. Mr. Light mentioned that he had never heard of a business executive who inquired after the quality of the administration of a university before handing over the corporation's funds. It just didn't seem the right thing to do. However, such an exec­ utive would not invest money in a company without first study­ ing and approving its management.

Nor does it seem the right thing to do to speak critically of tenure in the universities, yet in the opinion of many, tenure is at the root of our universities' problems. Since the end of World War II, university tenure has generated into an academic job security problem. It is no longer an incentive to innovation and new knowledge. It is a millstone dragging the country's schools down to universal mediocrity. Today, in the name of tenure, at least 44 of the country's 70 degree-granting colleges and universities have faculty col­ lective bargaining units. Some of us would call them unions.

Because of them, many faculties have teachers who are not familiar with modem developments in their fields, and who are a block to the introduction of younger and more competent teachers. We will not be able to attract to our universities the best brains in the field, and we will continue to lose our best brains to greener fields, unless we replace tenure with a risk reward compensation program that recognizes the good teacher over the bad and the mediocre. If some university faculty members are not first-class or world-class, neither are many of the students they are asked to teach.

Very few first-year students today can write their own language without serious errors. In many Canadian universities, remedial English classes of 40 percent or more of a freshman year are not unusual. I can hear the teachers beside me coughing and sputtering; I guess the truth is penetrating. According to Mr. Light, that is a flagrant form of double taxation. We have already paid taxes at one level, the high schools, and to provide each student in the remedial class with a level of competence in his native tongue is, in the opinion of Mr. Light, paying taxation twice for the same service.

Students, and apparently many teachers — and I do not include the hon. Member for Ponoka in this group — do not seem to understand that without an extensive command of the language, there can be no serious thinking. Without the fun­ damental skills of thinking, there can be no serious improve­ ment in our scientific and business environments. We must establish priorities and allocate future investments for maxi­ mum effectiveness. In concert with the universities, we must select where our centres of excellence shall be.

We must decide which schools will specialize in computers, which in law, which in medicine, which in engineering, and which in agriculture. We cannot afford to dissipate our capital, human or financial, in trying to make all schools all things to all people. At present we spend an average of $5,500 a year for each university student, ranging from a high of $7,400 in Alberta to a low of $4,500 in Ontario, one of our richest provinces. That figure alone would indicate . . . MR. ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER: I hesitate to interrupt the hon. member.

I believe it's established practice in this House that members not read verbatim from speeches delivered else­ where in Canada. MR. MUSGREAVE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm not reading verbatim. If we can spend $1 billion or more in a month to defend the Canadian dollar, surely we can find several more billions of dollars to rebuild and revitalize our universities over the next decade. In the long run, our universities are the best defence our dollar has. The ills of our universities can be cured if we are determined to do so.

They can be cured if we're prepared to make changes in the way in which we allocate our national financial resources, if we concentrate on faculty renewal, and if we are politically prepared to agree that what was good for the 19th century is not necessarily the best for the 21st century. It cannot be done by any single part of our society. It can only be done by the principal elements working in concert with a single objective to recreate a world-class university structure in our nation.

If we do not restore our universities and improve the educational infrastructure in Canada, we will be unilaterally withdrawing from the future. Thank you. DR. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to speak with respect to Motion 214, as proposed by the Member for Edmonton Glengarry. I commend him on bringing the motion forward, because it obviously deals with an issue which could be styled as "crunch time" in the education system within all of North America as well as within the province of Alberta.

When any person picks up almost any magazine today or any kind of nonfiction document, we're dealing with the results of the computer revolution, because so many of the printing techniques have radically altered in a very rapid fashion. So much of what we deal with in the print media, as part of its own background, really has been seen in terms of microcom­ puter revolution. We indeed are perched — actually we're not on the edge of a transformation in society; we're already past the cutting edge.

Many of us really haven't begun to compre­ hend the impact upon ourselves, let alone the impact that will take place with respect to our children and grandchildren. Sitting here listening with great interest to the debate, I suddenly realized that, my goodness, I've got three computers — one at home, one here in my apartment in Edmonton, and one in the constituency office. Yet my biggest problem is trying to find enough time to learn some more about this type tech­ nology and to try to come to some kind of minimal grips with what really has happened in terms of this explosion.

So it is that the motion is indeed very timely. With your kind permission, Mr. Speaker, one book I would briefly like to quote from is called Megatrends. It was written by John Naisbitt. A brief, seven-line quote is this: A 1980 report by the [United States] Department of Education and the National Science Foundation stated that most Americans are moving toward "virtual scientific and technological illiteracy". It concluded that science and math programs in [United States] schools lag behind the U.S.S.R., Japan, and Germany. Part of the problem is the shortage of qualified high school science and math teachers.

But there is an even worse shortage of college- level computer science and engineering teachers. I bring that into the debate because this book has only been published within the last six to seven weeks. It brings home a 1980 report. Goodness, what kind of impact is there with respect to North America in terms of the last four years? What ramifications are there in terms of this province of Alberta? Because we as Canadians lag behind the impact of technological revolution which has taken place not only in Japan but certainly within the United States.

So it is that once again, in terms of any debate related to this type of motion, one has to commend the Minister of Edu­ cation for having gone out on a limb — or gone out on some kind of electronic cord, I suppose — to deal with the issue of putting microcomputers into the education system in this prov­ ince. But no matter how much we've done, it's still too little

792 ALBERTA HANSARD May 10, 1984 too late, because this whole kind of revolution is indeed upon us. Moving along from there, Mr. Speaker, I was interested that earlier today I received a letter from the president of the University of Calgary inviting me, together with a few other members of the Assembly and some other persons from industry and government, to a half-day presentation which deals with certain advanced technologies. The University of Calgary in particular has been cited internationally, given international acclaim, for some of the work that has been done in the com­ puter science department.

So it is that on June 15, there will be this presentation, and I know some of the members will be able to be present. It deals with this kind of vocabulary: the JADE project — I can't begin to imagine what the JADE project is, but I know it doesn't deal with the mineral — document preparation and access with respect to software technology; graphics and animation; artificial intelligence and expert sys­ tems; micro-electronics and VLSI design. It's interesting that one of our universities is receiving international note in this area, and I'm certain it also applies to other universities within the province.

But I'm also pleased that this particular university has seen fit to make some approach with respect to trying to educate some of us who are elected representatives of the people. The matter of dollars and funding — I appreciate the com­ ments which the Member for Edmonton Glengarry put into the debate with respect to the need for additional facilities, funding, and staff. All of us know we are in difficult economic times. We seem to have bottomed out of that, but the challenges are there. But with respect — through you, Mr.

Speaker, to the member — he knows as well as I do that Alberta universities are being funded better than other universities within this coun­ try. Having said that, I still agree with him that there is still this need to assemble the dollars, the facilities, and the per­ sonnel. Perhaps in that respect, we should still be challenging the boards of governors of the various universities and colleges in this province to sit down and reallocate the resources they have.

This challenge to reallocate our resources is there for all of us, and it should also be incumbent upon the universities not to believe that these will be add-on dollars and add-on programs. It may well be, in terms of the impact of the microtechnological revolution, that they themselves have to do away with various ways they have been spending their own dollars in terms of the university pie at the moment. I offer that as being one way, and a very real challenge of course, back to the universities and colleges within this province.

With respect to the precise wording of Motion 214, from my knowledge of the Member for Edmonton Glengarry, I real­ ize that he has zeroed in on a specific here, in terms of sup­ porting the new and growing electronics industry in the province. He knows as well as anyone in this Assembly that the ramifications, the positive spin-off effects, really go far beyond the electronics industry in the province.

Again, I'm pleased that the motion gives me an opportunity to speak, because on the Order Paper I have Motion No. 217, which will come back to other ramifications and further devel­ opments of this type of motion with its implications, and also with respect to Motion 215, which deals with ways to attract the headquarters for the long baseline array radio telescope network to Alberta. One of the key functions with respect to trying to attract that very important project to this province is computer capability.

I'm given to understand, from consultations I've had this last weekend in Calgary, that the computer capability within the Calgary area is second in the world only to Houston. Hous­ ton is number one in terms of computer capability and computer servicing, and Calgary is number two. That really is an incre­ dible piece of information to come up with. Therefore, within Alberta it's a world-class thing. I don't want my hon. colleagues who come from Edmonton to get all upset about it. Perhaps I'm casting an aspersion upon Edmonton.

After all, they've got another computer outfit known as the Edmonton Oilers, who are going to win the Stanley Cup. in terms of supercomputers — because now we're into this kind of technology and are not only talking about microcom­ puters, computers in the home, and all the rest of it, but super­ computer capability such as an instrument produced known as the CYBER 205, which deals in megaflops. Hopefully I'll have the definition of all that by the time we get to next week's motion dealing with these kinds of things. A megaflop would be what happens if the Oilers lose the Stanley Cup.

The whole matter of computer capability brings back the issue of personnel, as well as sufficient funding to deal with that kind of a system. In that regard, we indeed have to look at training more personnel here in the province and, as pointed out, training even more personnel with respect to those who train others. The whole matter of micro-electronic technology is obviously one of the most important technologies in industry today, and it's going to be here for the foreseeable future.

Obviously, advances in micro-electronics produce significant improvements, not only in the electronics industry but in other industries as well, and help improve productivity in other indus­ tries. So there is that real kind of spin-off. It has been estimated that 44 percent of all productivity gains stem from innovation and new knowledge. Growth is obviously a function of the presence of strong research at the universities and a good supply of trained people. In that sense, it's almost a catch-22 situation that we really have to deal with and give all our support to. [Mr. Purdy in the Chair] Finally, Mr.

Speaker, I have about five pieces of information for which I wish to express my thanks to the Minister of Eco­ nomic Development and the Minister of Utilities and Telecom­ munications for sharing with me. They certainly have important input with respect to Motion 214 this afternoon. I'm given to understand that a request for a decision is going forward regard­ ing the development of micro-electronics design and fabrication capabilities, otherwise known as a chip foundry, and that this proposal is going forward within the next week or so.

Again, another request for a decision is going forward regarding an electronic industry information service. Another request for a decision regarding a telecommunications research institute is expected to be ready for submission within the next month. Another request for a decision is going forward regarding a supercomputing facility to be located in the province. This is hopefully going to become a reality before the end of 1984. Finally, as other members have alluded to, the government has indeed prepared a discussion paper regarding science and tech­ nology development in Alberta.

The government is indeed only too willing to elicit, to study, and to deal with responses to the paper. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. WOO: Mr. Speaker, in view of the time left, I request leave to adjourn debate. MR. ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER: Is it agreed that the hon. member has leave to adjourn debate?

May 10, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 793 HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is so ordered. head: PUBLIC BILLS AND ORDERS OTHER THAN GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS (Second Reading) Bill 201

An Act to Amend the Hospitals Act [Adjourned debate March 22: Mr. Nelson] MR. NELSON: Mr. Speaker, it's a pleasure to be able to stand in my place to briefly discuss the Bill at hand, and I commend the hon. Member for Edmonton Sherwood Park for again pre­ senting this to the Legislature. Palliative care is a program that needs in-depth consideration based on facts and some emotion. Firstly, Mr. Speaker, the facts are that it is not an extremely costly program, as is sug­ gested in many arenas. In fact a palliative care program can be developed that can be done in a person's home.

Training and assistance to family members is the key ingredient. We should remember that an endeavour to keep people at home but to provide support to the family in dealing with an extremely emotional event is very important. There are people with special skills able to assist those who are terminally ill. These skills could be offered or made available to assist people in dealing with those who could and would rather spend their remaining time at home. Certainly not all people will have the emotional ability to deal with this, even with professional assistance.

However, that option should remain, with the consideration of in-home service by a professional. Today we take up many beds in our acute care hospitals for patients who may not need or wish to be there. We must be mindful, however, that many of these patients do require some form of auxiliary care which can be done at much less cost yet still maintain the dignity and needs of the patient. A question that might be asked is: is it better to prolong a life by a few hours or days in an institutional setting, or would a person better spend their last days with their family and friends?

Historically, Canadians have spent their last days at home with family and friends. However, during the last few years, more people have been placed in institutions in an effort to prolong life. Although the intent is a compassionate one, the long-term impact on the family or even that individual who may be ter­ minally ill could be questionable. The possibility of prolonging life fits well with a physician's mandate to diagnose and treat diseases and to cure patients.

When a physician faces terminally ill patients for whom a cure is no longer a real possibility, life prolongation for its own sake may not be a viable goal. At this time, quality of the remaining days may well be what the patient and family would choose if given the opportunity, at least according to some palliative care proponents. Mr. Speaker, much concern has been addressed with regard to cost. Costs are certainly a factor and should be considered. Let's deal with these costs through the process we have avail­ able to us. How much does it cost to keep a patient in an acute care bed?

Alternatively, how much is it to keep a person in an auxiliary bed or, for that matter, in the home? it doesn't take a great expert to answer the questions. Firstly, we need to ensure the comfort of the patient and the family. What are their requirements? What is best for them? Is the need then met compassionately and in a dignified manner? Certainly the degree of care required is for the patient, the doctor, and the family to determine. Inadequacies in the health care system's treatment of the terminally ill have been researched for many years.

Instead of controlling pain and making a patient's last days as comfortable as possible, the cure orientation of staff in acute care settings leads to an emphasis on treatment geared toward extending life. We must be mindful that the extension of life is important in this day of changing technology. A life-saving cure could be just around the comer. At the same time, there must be a realistic examination of the case to ensure that false hope is not given to anyone during a time of emotional upset or possible grief. We must examine these areas of cost and the whole issue of palliative care.

Cost savings utilizing auxiliary and home care should be made and should probably be made quickly. We have people in Alberta who are experts in the field of palliative care. Let's have a consultive process immediately so development of a complete policy to ensure the dignity and the emotional needs of the patient and the family can be looked after, not only at minimal cost but to ensure each is as com­ fortable as possible in their needs. We have the resources to do this and more.

Let's show our human qualities, especially to those who may not be with us for long and to those families who have to suffer that loss. I ask support for this Bill or for a separate palliative care Act that may stand on its own. Mr. Speaker, this is an important issue, in both an emotional sense and a practical sense. People who have terminally ill family or friends need our assistance to ensure that the emotional environment they go through is looked after. Let us show some compassion. Thank you. MR. ALGER: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to participate in this debate this afternoon, both as a member of this Assembly and as chairman of the senior citizen caucus committee. Bill 201,

An Act to Amend the Hospitals Act, introduced by the Member for Edmonton Sherwood Park, brings to our attention an impor­ tant concept in health care services, that being palliative care. While no one is particularly overjoyed at the prospect of dying, the fact is that it is the only inevitable thing the good Lord blessed us with. The care of our dying has now become a public concern, a concern that must be approached with a great deal of sincerity and honesty. Dying in an institution, separated from one's home and familiar surroundings, is a relatively new phenomenon.

When over 70 percent of all deaths occur in our hospitals, nursing homes, and other health care institutions, the problems must be addressed with some haste. As our population ages, which it will, the situation will only worsen. Palliative care appears to be a practical initiative, especially given the fact that the population is aging and that there is a decreasing amount of family support for the terminally ill. That brings up a point that I think should be brought before this Assembly. In yesteryear, a family remained a family throughout the years.

When parents or grandparents became unable to cope for themselves, they always had the option of going to live with the kids. While I'm not saying that this always worked out for the best. I am saying that it was an available alternative. Society has changed all that. With the increasing number of divorced or separated parents, senior cit­ izens do not always have that option anymore. This means that more and more seniors are forced to enter institutionalized surroundings, often unfamiliar and certainly very confining.

794 ALBERTA HANSARD May 10, 1984 The family structure as it existed even 20 years ago is rapidly changing, and I think it is time this disintegration process was brought to a screeching halt. One way to achieve this could be palliative care programs conducted in the confines of one's own home. The responsibilities this type of program would bring to the family are immense but would no doubt be satisfying. Knowing that a loved one passes away gracefully, surrounded by friends and family, would help ease the pain that accom­ panies death. I caution you that palliative care isn't confined to senior citizens alone.

Indeed, terminally ill people in all age groups from infancy on can require the care of which I speak. [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] There is always a problem of financing when we talk about introducing or expanding programs. Again, a moral judgment is needed, but there must also be a rational reason for the moral judgment. It has been proven that the adoption of a palliative care program would lead to substantial savings in health care in the long term. It has been estimated that an integrated national palliative care program would save over $700 million a year in hospital costs.

The potential savings are indeed very large but so are the initial input costs. Given the call for restraint, I can foresee a great deal of problems if huge sums of money are funnelled into new palliative care programs. Nevertheless I feel the positives vastly outweigh the neg­ atives, and it is the proper time to act on this Bill. Therefore I support the immediate passage of this Bill, and I urge the Assembly to do the same. I want to thank the Member for Edmonton Sherwood Park for introducing the Bill and provid­ ing us an opportunity to address this very timely topic. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. PAPROSKI: Mr.

Speaker, it's always a pleasure to listen to and follow the Member for Highwood, the chairman of the senior citizen caucus committee. As vice-chairman of that cau­ cus committee, I have learned a tremendous amount about seniors, their needs and their wants, from the hon. member. In rising to speak in support of Bill 201, I would like to begin by commending the hon. Member for Edmonton Sher­ wood Park for taking the initiative in bringing this issue before the Assembly and for his persistent advocacy of palliative care.

Palliative care, as far as I'm concerned, is an idea whose time has come, and I thank the hon. member for providing this opportunity to speak on it today. Mr. Speaker, the compassionate care of the dying must be an item of highest priority for our health care system today. Death of course is an inevitable fact of human existence and has always been with us. The care of the dying in hospitals is hardly a new issue. However, as more and more of our citizens are dying in hospitals rather than at home or elsewhere, we must come to grips with the proper institutional care of these particular patients.

The key to the establishment of palliative care units in our hospitals is the recognition that hospitals exist to alleviate the suffering of those in pain. Until very recently, this function has been interpreted solely in terms of restoring patients to good health, where that was possible. That, of course, must remain the primary role of hospitals. However, our duty to alleviate suffering does not stop for those patients who will never recover. These patients are not only in physical pain but are facing the extreme emotional turmoil of preparing them­ selves for impending and certain death.

Our health care system must respond to the needs of these patients in a compassionate and sensitive way. The most effective response to these needs will come through the creation in our major hospitals of units especially designed, equipped, and staffed to ease the burdens of the dying. In Canada we have seen the establishment of these units in Win­ nipeg, Toronto, Saskatoon, Quebec City, Victoria, Vancouver, St. John's, and Montreal. In Alberta the only existing palliative care unit is at the Youville Memorial hospital in Edmonton.

Clearly a nationwide recognition is developing that palliative care units provide the best means of caring for the dying. Mr. Speaker, the question to be addressed today is twofold: whether these programs should be established in major hospitals across Alberta, and what form any of these programs should take. Since the establishment of the unit as part of the Youville Memorial hospital in 1982, it has become clear that consid­ erable public demand for such facilities exists and that the current 16 beds are grossly inadequate to meet the demand. This is not for one minute to derogate the fine work that Dr.

Helen Hays and her staff do at the Youville. They should be fully commended not only for the service they provide but also for the fact that they have kept this unit alive strictly through private donations. However, the Youville alone cannot meet the provincial demand for institutional palliative care. To meet this demand we must greatly increase the number of beds available and must make them available throughout the province.

Some people might ask: why do we not simply create large units in Edmonton or Calgary and meet the provincial demand by bringing people from outlying regions into the major cities; in this way we could consolidate our resources and expertise and perhaps use them most efficiently. Mr. Speaker, the response to this can be summarized in one word, and that word is "compassion". A dying person needs not only first-class medical and psycho­ logical treatment but also support, support that will come pri­ marily from family and friends.

To move an individual long distances from his or her own community, thus making it dif­ ficult for family and friends to be there precisely when they are needed, would be cruel in the extreme, as far as I'm con­ cerned. On the other hand, we must also recognize that not every hospital in Alberta has the space or indeed the resources to offer palliative care. The Bill before us, presented by the Mem­ ber for Edmonton Sherwood Park, strikes a commendable bal­ ance by specifying that only those hospitals with at least 100 beds will be eligible for special funding for palliative units.

In this way regional population centres will be able to provide palliative care, and patients from these regions will be spared the ordeal of a transfer to the cities of Edmonton or Calgary. Mr. Speaker, what must now be addressed is the type of palliative care program we wish to see established throughout this province, in debate on a motion on the topic of palliative care in this Assembly last May, the hon. Member for Calgary North West outlined the basics of such a program. I believe her sage comments bear reiteration today.

At that time the hon. member described a multidisciplinary treatment team that would deal with the individual needs of each patient and their families. Such a team would include doctors, nurses, psy­ chologists, and social workers — all specially trained in the care of the dying — and would be concerned with alleviating the social, psychological, and spiritual stress as well as the physical discomfort associated with dying. Where requested by the patient and/or his family, a clergyman would be part of this team as well. Mr. Speaker, the object of this approach would be the treatment of the whole person.

Such an approach would also allow the flexibility needed to design a program specific to each individual. As the illness progresses and the physical and/or emotional state of a patient changes, the team would be

May 10, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 795 able to modify their treatment accordingly. Because of the different kinds of professionals working together with each patient, maximum flexibility would be maintained in respond­ ing to these changing conditions. It must be emphasized that in addition to working directly with the terminally ill patient, a palliative care unit could pro­ vide services to the families and close friends of these particular patients. Families could be advised as to the best way to deal with the dying person.

They could be helped in preparing them­ selves for the death of that person, and indeed bereavement counselling could be made available for those that need it fol­ lowing the death. We cannot ignore the needs of those who are most closely affected by the death, Mr. Speaker. Not only could we be alleviating the stress suffered by family members at the time of death but we could avoid some of the medical problems associated with untreated stress. Mr. Speaker, one common fallacy exists about palliative care that must be discussed; that is, it is not designed primarily for the elderly.

It is certainly true that the average life span is somewhere in the range of 75 years and that most people are elderly when they die. However, when one looks at the ages of cancer victims or those who suffer cardiac disease, it quickly becomes apparent that a great many of those who would be best served by palliative care are indeed below the age of 65. It is interesting to note that between 1975 and 1980, the pal­ liative care unit of the Royal Victoria hospital in Montreal found that over 30 percent of its patients were between 50 and 60 years old. Almost 75 percent of their patients were under 70 years old.

Palliative care units must not be viewed as specialized geriatric units. There is no reason why they cannot serve every age group, from small children to the elderly. When discussing the needs of the dying, it seems crass and heartless to start discussing the costs of their particular care. However, we as legislators charged with administering the pub­ lic purse must evaluate the cost effectiveness of any proposal put before us. Fortunately palliative care can bear any such evaluation when compared with the cost of keeping these patients in acute care units or active treatment hospitals.

Ter­ minally ill patients have no need of the highly technical and costly equipment required for curative care. To keep a termi­ nally ill patient in an active treatment unit would involve con­ siderable overhead costs that are indeed unnecessary. While it is difficult to pin down the exact amount of money that could be saved through the expansion of palliative care units, experi­ ence in Canada and the United States indicates that that saving would indeed be substantial.

For example, a 1982 study by Health and Welfare Canada estimated — and the Member for Highwood indicated this — that over $700 million could be saved annually if there were an expansion of palliative care units across this land. While some initial capital costs will clearly be involved in establishing these units in Alberta, we must not let that deter us. The long-term cost savings will be substantial, and the quality of our health care system will have been increased immeasurably. Ultimately the debate over the establishment of palliative care units in Alberta hospitals must deal with the area of com­ passion.

How do we provide the best quality and most com­ passionate care to terminally ill Albertans and their families? It is my firm belief that we as legislators and as the primary source of funds for the health care system in this province must ensure that palliative care is expanded as far as is feasible.

By evaluating the proposals for palliative care units on a hospital- by-hospital basis with an eye to ensuring that proposed pro­ grams are both cost effective and high quality, the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care, under this Bill, will be able to ensure that terminally ill patients will receive appropriate care. Mr. Speaker, we must move to establish these programs now. Albertans deserve nothing less. I urge all members in this Assembly to support this Bill. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. OMAN: Mr. Speaker, at this point I guess it's hard not to be repetitive.

The mover of the motion has been duly rec­ ognized and commended many times, and there have been a lot of good and needful things said on the motion concerning palliative care. One of the questions that's arisen here is that of priority when we're thinking of health care and serving those who are sick in one way or another. It's been indicated that there aren't enough dollars around right now to serve the setting up of palliative care units in our hospitals, even in the formula put forth by the hon. Member for Edmonton Sherwood Park.

As I look at this, I would have to say that if you're looking at priorities, obviously the first thing to do is help the living stay alive and healthy. That, I suppose, is what's involved in the Hippocratic oath; it's to preserve life. So one has to say that when there is a choice between dollars, obviously that's where our priority comes in. However, in spite of all our medical and technical advan­ tages over the last decades, indeed centuries, it's been men­ tioned that the averages are about the same.

While we have prolonged life, perhaps improved it, the average of those who are bom and those who die remains pretty well the same — one for one. We haven't yet banished the scourge of death, and it's not likely that we will. What are we to do then? Are we to say: well, they're hopeless, and therefore we'll try to ease their pain but otherwise largely ignore them. The fact is that one way or another all of us are going to face this experience one day. Death has been something I've been pretty close to for a number of years because of my professional involvement.

I've stood by the beds of those who were expiring, held their hands and watched as they slowly eased out of this life. You can only go with them so far, and then they go alone. I think what is most important and least expensive, if you will — it's not costly at all — is that somebody be with the person when he passes from this world