Manitoba Hansard — 7 May 1998 (Sitting 44A, 36th Legislature, 4th Session)

36-4-44a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Sixth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable Louise M. Dacquay Speaker Vol. XLVIII No. 44A -10 a.m., Thursday, May 7, 1998 ISSN 0542-5492

Member ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise, Hon. DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER. Albert DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FAURSCHOU, David FILM ON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KOWALSKI, Gary LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MACKINTOSH, Gord MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. McGIFFORD, Diane MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon.

MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEWMAN, David, Hon. PENNER, Jack PITURA, Frank, Hon. PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. RADCLIFFE, Mike, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack, Hon. RENDER, Shirley ROBINSON, Eric ROCAN, Denis SALE, Tim SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STRUTHERS, Stan SVEINSON, Ben TOEWS, Vic, Hon. TWEED, Mervin VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WOWCHUK, Rosann Vacant MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Sixth Legislature Constituency Thompson Wellington Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Pembina Lakeside Interlake Brandon East Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon The Maples Inkster The Pas St. Norbert St. Johns Elmwood Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Osborne Assiniboia St. James River East Riel Emerson Morris Lac du Bonnet River Heights Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Rupertsland Gladstone Crescentwood Broadway Kirkfield Park Dauphin La Verendrye Rossmere Turtle Mountain Fort Garry Swan River Charleswood Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C.

P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. Lib. Lib. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

2697 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thur sday, May 7, 1998 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James McCrae (Government House Leader): Madam Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Minister of Natural Resources (Mr. Cummings), that Madam Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Motion agreed to. *

(1010) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) FAMILY SERVICES Mr. Chairperson (Gerry McAlpine): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This morning this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates for the Department of Family Services. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 9.2. Employment and Income Assistance (

b) Income Assistance Programs

(1) Employment and Income Assistance on page 54 of the Estimates book. Chair person's Ruling Mr. Chairperson: Before proceeding with the Estimates, I have a ruling. On May 4, 1998, the Acting Chairperson took under advisement a point of order raised by the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). It concerned words spoken by the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) to a question asked by the member for Burrows.

The words were: "This is politics at its slimiest." When speaking to the point of order, the member for Burrows asked that, if the words are unparliamentary, the minister be asked to withdraw the same. While the word "slimiest" is not listed in Beauchesne as unparliamentary, there have been several Speaker's rulings in Manitoba that have ruled variations of the word out of order. I would draw to the attention of the committee that Madam Speaker Phillips ruled the word "slimy" out of order on several occasions.

I would also draw to the attention of the committee that Madam Speaker Dacquay also ruled the word "slimy" be withdrawn as it caused disruption in the House. In light of the above-referenced rulings, I would ask the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) to withdraw the words. Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Chairperson, I will withdraw those words. Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister. * * * Mrs. Mitchelson: My honourable friend had asked for some information about the grants listing to external agencies the other day, and I have that for him this morning.

Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I have not quite got to those yet, but I am wondering if it is in the same format as it used to be whereby it was divided into sections according to the part of the department. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, no, it is not. My understanding is it is the same one that we tabled last year in the same format. Mr. Martindale: I was going back to 1994-95 where it was divided up into-for example, Community Living was the first page. Then there was Child Day Care,

2698 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 1998 Child and Family Support. I wonder if next year the minister would consider going back to the format where it was divided up according to parts of the department. It is a little easier to use if it is in a more useable format. Mrs. Mitchelson : Certainly we can undertake to do that, but we have not mixed them all up. I think if you look through the list, you will see that the Child and Family Services agencies are all together. The support for women's services are all together. But we will undertake to do that for next year. Mr.

Martindale: I have some miscellaneous questions, I guess, before we get back to the Child Benefit. I wonder if the minister could tell me how many person!H>r rather what was the average case load on municipal assistance and the average caseload on provincial assistance in the fiscal year '97-98? Mrs. Mitchelson: The average provincial caseload in '97-98 was 25, 103 and the average municipal caseload was 14,126. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell me what the numbers were at March 31 for provincial and for municipal? Mrs.

Mitchelson: For the provincial caseload, just for the month of March 1997, the case load was 25,018, and for the municipal caseload it was 13,6 15. Mr. Martindale: It is my understanding that some individual workers, and I am using provincial as an example, have very high numbers of files; for example, one worker that I talked to has 585 files, all disabled. It is always a concern when workers have that many files, and in this instance she says she gets 60 to 70 phone calls a day because it means that it is almost impossible to do home visits and keep in touch with those individuals on a regular basis.

My question would be what is going to happen with the One Tier system? Do you anticipate that caseloads are going to go up per worker or down or stay the same? What are your plans in that regard? Mrs. Mitchelson: Presently, I guess, the average number of caseloads per counsellor would be around 245, but I do want to indicate that it is the counsellors that do the intake and that then there are also financial workers that determine the budget and the amount of payment for individuals. So, in combination with the counsellors, there are also financial workers that deal with the budgetary issues.

The counsellors would do intake, and then a significant amount of other work is done by the financial workers within the system. Mr. Martindale: So is the number of cases that I quoted an anomaly, or is the minister saying that there is also a financial worker assisting this counsellor? * (1 020) Mrs. Mitchelson : I am informed that there is a disabled pilot project going on right now where counsellors do have 500 to 600 files each, and that is because of the nature of the disabled community and clients. Many of them are long term; they will be on social allowance for an extended period of time.

So we are determining whether this is an appropriate approach to be taking with the disabled caseload. I know that much of our focus-1 mean, certainly we do not have to do as extensive work as on our Employment First initiatives. If, in fact, there is an ability to work with a disabled client to move into the workforce, we do that, but we have a significantly more focused approach on others in developing personal job plans and determining where they are going to end up.

So, if I can indicate to you, there is a little more stability in the disabled caseload than what we want to see in the nondisabled and the employable caseload. Mr. Martindale: What is going to happen with One Tier of income assistance delivery in the city of Winnipeg? Are we going to see more than 245 cases per counsellor or less? What are your plans in that regard? Mrs.

Mitchelson: One of the goals or objectives of the One Tier system is to try to ensure that we have more people working on the front lines, working with individual clients than we do doing paperwork, so with the one system and the new technology it should make it much easier for us to focus our human resources working with the clients that need that kind of support

May 7, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2699 and service. So we are anticipating and expecting that, in fact, there will be more one-on-one support and services as a result of the One Tier system. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairman, I am pleased to see that this minister and her department are learning from the City of Winnipeg where, in recent years, they hired additional staff. I think at one point they hired 20 additional staff, and they saw a great decrease in their caseload.

They believe it was because they were working on a more intensive basis with individuals, so I hope that what the minis ter says is a good sign of things to come. The minis ter will be aware that there have not been any increases in welfare rates, in fact only cuts in recent years,

whereas in the past she and her predecessors, both in her government and previous governments, usually gave an annual increase based on the consumer price index. This minis ter and I have had disagree ments about things like the poverty rates and low income cutoffs, and as the minister knows, while I hate to give her any credit or agree with her on anything, I would have to admit that one of the problems with the low-income cutoffs is that they are a very rough measure of poverty, because they are based on cities of a certain size.

So there are no regional variations, and there are no variations as a result of living expenses being higher or lower in a particular city. Mr. Peter Dyck, Ac ting Chairperson, in the Chair Now, there is an alternative to that, and that is the alternative that the City of Winnipeg Social Services Department used to use, and that is a market-basket approach.

I am wondering if this min ister would consider, the next time benefit rates are reviewed, looking at a market-basket approach which would therefore be a realistic appraisal of people's needs, and, presumably, it would include food and clothing and personal needs, household needs and shelter. There are preceden ts out there-for example, the acceptable living level that the Social Planning Council did-but the minister and her department might want to do their own market-basket approach of measuring the costs of goods and services in Winni peg. Would the minister be willi ng to at least consider that? Mrs.

Mitchelson: I know that different provinces right across the country handle the amount that they provide to indivi duals or families in a different way. There is not any one standard way right across the country. Certainly, the issues that my honourable friend raised around the low-income cutoffs are issues that have caused much concern, not only in our province but right across the country, around how do we measure poverty. Stats Canada themselves say that clearly.

I mean, they have written to me, and they have written to other ministers across the country and have said that LICOs are not a measurement of poverty. It is spelled out very clearly, but it is the best measurement that we have, and they do lump Winnipeg into the same category of all cities over the population of 500,000, not taking into account the cost of livin g, the cost of housing, the cost of food and clothing or sales taxes that might or might not be applied in different provinces. They also do not take into account any of the rebates or supports for low-income families.

When you look at the GST and PST rebates, those kinds of things are not taken into account. I guess on the GST, it is similar right across the country, but PST rebates are different province to province. There are many programs that might support low-income families that are not taken into account. When you look at the child tax credit, the tax credit that we put in place several years ago in Manitoba I think reduces the income tax paid by about $250 per child per family. At the time we implemented it, and I think it was back in 1992, we raised the threshold from $50 to $250 for each child.

Anyway, it was a cost of about $28 mil lion a year to our government and to our Treasury, and those kinds of things are not included when they do the low-income cutoff. Each province has different programs in place. I look to the support that we provide for older children. As children get older in Manitoba, we give them increased support through our welfare system. I know that in many other provinces it is a standard rate right across the board no matter how old the child is.

I always look to British Columbia , and I often mention British Columbia when I say that they pay through their welfare system $103 per child. That is in the city of Vancouver and right throughout the province. Our rates for children are anywhere from about $11 6 to as

2700 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 1998 high as $189 per month for older children in families, so we have a different system. *

(1030) Everyone deals with it differently. I will commit today to trying to ensure that we have the ability to help as many people that are in our welfare system today move off of welfare and into the workf orce. Anyone that remains on welfare for a lifetime is committed to a lif e of poverty. I do not think you will ever see any province that will pay what Stats Canada, through LICO, says is the low-income cutof f in welfare payments. That is not in the cards, so you will never see anyone living on welfare that rises above that poverty line as it is measured today.

I can indicate that all provinces certainly are looking. We are looking at a federal-provincial level at whether there is another way to measure truly what the poverty line might be and then determine how we provide supports from there, but, at this point in time, I am not prepared to commit to-any change we will continue to review as time as goes by, the way we are delivering our support, and, as we believe changes are necessary, we wi ll attempt to make those changes. But I am not going to commit to anything today. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, could the minis ter tell me as a result of Order-in-Council changes requiring persons turning 60 to apply for CPP benefits, how many people aged 60 to 65 have received either full or partial CPP, or, I guess, another way of saying that would be partially on provincial or municipal assistance or partially on CPP benefits? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, bef ore the policy was put in place, there were about 1, 100 people on the caseload that had income from CPP.

When we changed the policy and required people at age 60 to collect CPP before applying for welfare, the number increased by a hundred individuals. So it is up to 1 ,200 individuals now. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I have some questions about the supposedly new National Child Be nefit. Could the minis ter tell me if she considered allowing individuals on assistance to keep maintenance payments or part of their maintenance? Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, as the policy has exis ted and exists across the country pretty well, if people are receiving maintenance payments, that is taken into consideration as income, and then if it is not enough, they would receive a top-up from the welfare program and that remains consistent here and right across the country. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, the minister surely knows that people who are on income assistance or receive maintenance are no better off as a result of having maintenance income.

Either they receive it and it is deducted dollar for dollar, or the money just goes directly to the Department of Family Services. But in Saskatchewan, under the new benefits, the money that was clawed back, some of it has been redirected to famili es receiving maintenance so that they are better off, and I am wondering if Manitoba considered doing that. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, we have researched what Saskatchewan has done, and there is no increased revenue for people on welfare who are collecting maintenance. I think my honourable friend might be mistaking it for welfare recipients.

Low income working famili es who are rece1vmg maintenance are receiving additional support through the Saskatchewan child benefit. Our whole purpose and objective under welfare reform and Employment First is to try to assist people, wherever possible, to be trained and to enter the workforce. Anyone who does enter the workforce and has a job, certainly, would continue to see their maintenance support be in addition to or augment the salary that they might make from a job, but I do not think anywhere across the country have any govern ments left any more money in the hands or pockets of those on welfare.

The whole focus and the objective of the National Child Benefit is to try to help people secure attachment to the workf orce, because we know that people are better off working than on welfare, or should be. Mr. Martindale: Could the minis ter explain the $1.5 mil lion for famili es on Income Assistance who are

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 270 1 making the transition to the new National Child Benefit, which is one of the items in her press release of March 10 , 19 98? Mrs. Mitchelson: I will start, Mr. Chairperson, to try to explain this. It is a little complicated. It was really the federal government that created this problem, or this issue. When provinces first recommended to the federal government that we look at a National Child Benefit with additional support from the federal government, we made it very clear that there were to be no losers.

No one was to be worse off as a result of the National Child Benefit. That was one of the principles that provinces presented in their paper to the federal government. We believed that by indicating right across the country as provinces that we would not create any losers, that no one would have less money as a result of the National Child Be nefit, we thought that the federal government, when they agreed to work with us to develop the National Child Benefit, would understand and agree to that principle.

But the federal government, who previously had a working income supplement program, prior to July of 19 97 paid $500 per family to families with earnings up to I think it was around $2 1,000.

In July of 1997, when they converted the working income supplement to a per-child amount-they gave $500 per family previous to July 19 97-they paid the higher amount out. * (10 40) So because the federal government changed the payment mechanism for the working income supplement in July of 19 97, prior to the National Child Benefit coming into force, families that had some income earnings and were partially on welfare received the higher amount in July of 19 97. So if, in fact, dollar for dollar, we removed money from those families that had some working income, there would be people that would be worse off.

So as a result we have invested the $1. 7 million into those families so that no one is worse off as a result. That make sense? Mr. Martindale: Can the minis ter tell us what the federal government plans are for the future? Because their commitment right now is time limited I believe to the year 2000. What indications have they given for the Child Benefit after the year 2000? Mrs. Mitchelson: It is not time limited. This is forever. This is a National Child Benefit that will continue. What they have done is make a commitment to another $850 million more in their next mandate which has started.

So they are talking over the next two years. They have announced $425 million next year and an incremental $425 million the following year. So we should see the National Child Benefit doubled over the next two years. It will continue. There is no end that we are aware of. It would not be the first time the federal government has gone into something and withdrawn but, quite frankly, the whole end objective or intent of the National Child Benefit would be to ensure that children would come out of the welfare system completely. That would be the main objective and goal.

Certainly it is not going to happen over the next few years, but they say, as resources come available, investing more, and they have committed to another $850 million over the next two years. So we should see the amount that we have to reinvest double over the next two years. Mr. Martindale: I am glad the minis ter is willing to promise that the federal money will continue in perpetuity. My concern, though, comes from a Globe and Mail

article on March 13 this year that says that in last month's budget the federal government promised 1. 7 bil lion over the next three years if the provinces announce matching programs to get parents off welfare and take more than a million children out of poverty. The minister has already answered my question, I guess, but someone seemed to have some doubts fairly recently about-maybe because it was only budgeted for three years, but maybe the federal government has made a commitment to continue the extra money beyond the three years. Mrs.

Mitchelson : It is my understanding from the federal government and from the meetings that we have been at that this money will continue but it will continue to be incremental. So as more resources become available at the federal level, they will increase their contribution to children in low-income famili es, whether they be working or on welfare, in an incremental way with the ultimate end goal or objective

2702 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 being to take all children off of the welfare rolls in provinces and provide extra support to working families through the National Child Benefit, so those people will have more money in their pockets and it will augment those low-income working families. Mr. Martindale: Since the government of Saskatchewan has taken children off welfare and put them on a family benefit plan, would the minis ter consider doing that in Manitoba? Mrs.

Mitchelson: I know we can compare and use different examples from different jurisdictions, but if you look at the current basic rates in Saskatchewan and in Manitoba, and we take, for example, a single parent with two children, ages 10 and 13 , we pay $604.40, and the same example in Saskatchewan would see only support of $550. So we are already paying more for children, and they are not receiving any more as a result ofthe change to the Saskatchewan child benefit if they are on welfare. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, well, I think we are talking about a philosophical shift or change.

You know, it was the minis ter who said that the eventual plan is to take all children off welfare. I think if you think about it, there are some benefits to that. One is, and I think the major one is that there is a stigma to being on welfare, and if you change it, as they did in Saskatchewan to the Saskatchewan child benefit, then their income can be seen as coming from a different source. It is like a pension, which does not have that kind of stigma. So I would hope that the minis ter would consider it.

Did this minister consider improving health benef its or having a training allowance or some kind of income supplement program with some of the money that could be redirected? Mrs. Mitchel son: Mr. Cha irperson, I think we considered all options when we looked at how we wanted to reinvest.

Certainly, with our focus on the Children and Youth Secretariat and our knowledge and understanding of what early intervention can do for children, we chose to place our priority this year with the resources that we had on many of those ini tiatives, whether it be our BabyFirst or Earlystart programs, our additional support to the child care system so we could have the spaces available for those people who want and have the ability to move off of welfare and into the workforce, the kinds of things that we believe needed to be reinvested in right now.

We will be getting more money next year and the year after, and all of those issues are on the table and we will be looking to see how we might deal with the additional money that we will have as a result of the additional federal commitment. * (1 050) So those are all things that we have looked at.

I think we determined that our first and foremost priorities would be trying to find secure attachment to the workforce through additional training dollars, ensuring that the child care spaces were there and available as people needed those, putting money into early intervention through the BabyFir st and Earlystart programs, the nutrition program that will be announced in the near future. So those are the kinds of things that we chose, and other provinces chose different things.

You know, for instance, I know that we spend millio ns and millions of dollars more on child care than the Province of Saskatchewan does, so there are some differences there. I am not sure whether they reinvested any of their money into additional child care spaces. So everyone has done-no, I understand they did not, so everyone has done different things based on what they felt priorities were. I know that every province will be looking and assessing what other provinces have done and maybe move in some of those directions as they have more resources available. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, I think we were going to do Taking Charge! under line 2.(c), so we may be ready to pass 2.(b ). Mr. Chairperson: Item 9.2. Employment and Income Assistance (

b) Income Assistance Programs ( 1) Employment and Income Assistance $206,053,300- pass;

(2) Health Services $19 ,84 1 ,400-pass;

(3) Municipal Assistance $85,4 19 ,700-pass;

(4) Income Assistance for the Disabled $9,960,2 00-pass. Item 9.2.(

c) Making Welfare Work $4,460,000-pass.

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2703 9.2.(

d) Income Supplement Programs

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mr. Martindale: I am sorry, I was daydreaming, Mr. Chairperson. Mr. Chairperson: Is there unanimous consent of the committee to revert to item 9 .2.(

c) Making Welfare Work $4,460,000? [agreed] Mr. Martindale: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson, for being so accommodating. I wrote to the minister, I believe, April 21, 19 97, asking for a list of all of the organizations that received contracts under Taking Charge! of which I believe there must be quite a few, because Taking Charge! has sent me all their faxes on all their courses and all their programs so I can publicize them, I suppose, and there are a quite a few of them, some in the private sector, quite a few in the nonprofit sector.

I would be very interested in knowing the names of all the organizations that got contracts, how much the contracts were for and how many people were going to be trained by each organization. I also asked about the cost per person of training for each organization, and I am wondering if the minister could share that with me. Mrs. Mitchelson: We can provide that information. Does my honourable friend want us to go right back to the beginning of '95-96 and provide a list of-what information specifically, the contracts, the costs of the contracts? Mr. Martindale: I will table my letter to the minis ter.

It has the information that I need. Mrs. Mitchelson: Okay, and we will provide that once we get the copy of the letter. Mr. Martindale: I thank the minister. I have a document called Taking Charge!: Strategic Initia tive Evaluation Framework and Request for Proposals which I tabled the other day. The Clerk pointed out to me that I only have the odd-numbered pages, which I guess shows that you cannot rely on leaked documents too much. Maybe I only have half as many questions if I only have half the pages, or maybe I should have only got half as excited as I did when this fell into my lap.

I should maybe point out that it was not leaked to me by a civil servant; it came from another source. I do not want to get anybody in trouble here. I was told that the evaluation of Taking Charge! would be public, and I am wondering if there is an evaluation that the minis ter could share with me. Mrs. Mitchelson: This document-by the way, I have a full copy for my honourable friend, because it is a public document, which I will share with him. It is the document that was put out in the requests for proposals for companies to bid. Prairie Research was one of the companies that did bid, and they won the contract.

So the evaluation is in process, but we do not have the results yet. Mr. Martindale: When the minister does have the evaluation, will that be available to me or not? Mrs. Mitchelson: My sense is that it would be a public document once it is completed, and I will ensure that my honourable friend gets a copy. I do not know what the process is, whether we do have to check with the board of Taking Charge! on that or not. Yes, so, Mr.

Cha irperson, it will be shared publicly once the document is completed, once it is shared with Taking Charge! and they have the ability to provide their comments, and then that will become a public document. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I thank the minister. Mr. Chairperson: Item 9.2.(

c) Making Welfare Work $4,460, 000-pass. 9 .2.(

d) Income Supplement Programs ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mr. Martindale: I wonder if the minis ter could provide me with some statistics on individuals receiving CRISP, and then I have some questions on individ uals receiving 55 Plus. I am wondering if the minister has a breakdown according to categories. For example, what percentage of families receive the maximum per child benefits, and what was the average benefit per family for CRISP?

2704 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 Mrs. Mitchelson: I have the figures for the CRISP program, and there are approximately 3,300 families that are receiving CRISP benefits. The average benefit per family is about $62, and 75 percent of those families get the full benefits. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, there has been a considerable decline in the caseload for CRISP, which is well documented in the annual reports.

For example, in June 19 87, there were 9,380 cases-I will call them because I am not sure exactly, I guess, I am talking about clients-whereas in the '98-99 Estimates book, I believe we are looking at 3,300. Now I know there was a decline in '97-98 because a large number of people were declared ineligible, but why has there been such a decline even from '87 to '95-96 when the caseload went down from 9,300 to 6, I 00? Mrs. Mitchelson: My honourable friend is quite right. In 19 96-97, many clients did become ineligible, and there was a significant drop that year.

But all I can say is that reapplication forms are sent out, applications are out there in the community, and as people apply and are deemed eligible, they receive the support. So we are not anticipating that there will be any decline in this year's budget as opposed to last year. *( 1 10 0) Mr. Martindale: Since this is a targeted program for working families of low income, how is this program advertised and does the government spend money on advertising? How are people notified that this benefit is available? Mrs. Mitchelson: Anyone who was receiving the benefit in the previous year sent a reapplication form.

We have them available in all of our offices through community organizations. So they are there and available for people, should they choose to apply for the program. So that is the way we deliver the program, and we know that the forms are available and accessible right throughout Manitoba. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, so in other words, there is no advertising. If people are lucky enough to find out about the program, they apply or they phone and get an application form sent to them.

If they do not know that it exists, they do not ask for an application form, they do not apply, and they do not get the benefit, because this government chooses not to make the public widely aware that this program exists. Is that not the case? Mrs. Mitchelson: As we do the preorientation intake sessions for those who are applying for social allowance, and as we work with those individuals as they move into the workforce, they are made available of the program, and they can choose to apply or not apply. It is an application process. Those who apply who are eligible do receive the benefit.

I just want to introduce one other staff member who was at the table. That is Gerry Schmid t, who is the executive director of Clie nt Services. Mr. Chairperson: I thank the honourable minister. Mr. Martindale: I thank the minis ter for the introduction. It is also good to put a face on somebody, though I am aware of the name and talk to on the phone. It makes the person a little more real, I guess, when you see them in person. Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, we are all real people. Mr. Martindale: I have some questions on 55 Plus.

Could the minis ter tell me what percentage of clients receive the maximum benefit and what was the average benefit per quarter? Mrs. Mitchelson: The average quarterly benefit is $97.49, and about 62 percent get the full benefits. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell me what was the average benefit for those persons in receipt of OAS benefits? Mrs. Mitchelson: Maybe we could go on to another question. We have to calculate that figure. Mr. Martindale: Could the minis ter tell me what percent of the caseload were women? Mrs. Mitchelson: We do collect that data, but we do not have it here.

We could undertake to get it.

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2705 Mr. Martindale: I am looking at the annual report for 19 96-97, the most recent annual report, page 37, 55 Plus, and I found one asterisk at the bottom of the page for '96-97 in one of the columns, and then there were two asterisks. For the life of me I cannot find where the two asterisks are on the page, other than on the footnote. I am wondering where they are supposed to go. Mrs. Mitchelson: I think it is a typo. I think that both points underneath relate to the date of 19 96-97. So there are two points.

I am not sure how it should have been shown, but they both are an expl anation of the date. Mr. Chairperson: Item 9.2. Emplo yment and Income Assistance (

d) Income Supplement Programs

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $647,80 0-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $335, 000-pass;

(3) Financial Assistance $8,3 35, I 00-p ass. Resolution 9.2: RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $351 ,448,200 for Family Services, Employment and Income Assistance, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99. Moving on to Resolution 9.3. Community Living (

a) Regional Operations

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 4,283, 800. * (1 1 10 ) Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I received a lot of correspondence last year, some of which was directed to staff in Community Living, some of which was directed to the minister, some of which was directed to the Premier, some of which came to me as the opposition critic, all having to do with wages and budgets of group homes. I know that the minister is very aware of this issue, and it is a rather serious one because these group homes accommodate vulnerable persons who are living in the community instead of in institutions.

These organizations and their boards and staff provide a very valuable service to the individuals and to the community, but because of inadequate funding they have numerous problems. For example, it was pointed out to me that funding rates were decreased by 4 percent in 19 93 and have not increased since and that those rates make it very difficult to attract and keep staff, to comply with labour and licensing requirements and to meet increasing costs and administrative demands. Most of the correspon dence repeats all of those concerns.

We are talking about people who are living on very low wages, probably a lot of young people. My guess is that a lot of the staff would be under 25 years old. I would say it would be impossible to support a family on that kind of income. In fact, even an individual would probably be living below the poverty line at those kinds of wages. In a letter from the Manitoba Coalition of Service Providers, their figure is an average of $6.75 an hour. Those are very low wages indeed, especially when you consider that there would be deductions, and we are looking at about $7,000 a year for these individuals.

So it is no surprise, then, that they would have a high staff turnover and could not keep qualified people. I know that there has been an increase in the budget in Commu nity Living, and I am sure the minister is going to tell me all about it now, but I am wondering how much is going to be available for group homes because even if you have a percentage increase for group homes, a 2 percent increase in their wages is not going to make a very significant difference.

So I am wondering if the minister can tell us how the issue of wages, in particular, has been addressed by her department and by her government's budget. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, just before answer, I would like to introduce Martin Billin koffwho is the ADM in this area and Wes Henderson, executive director.

Well, I lis tened very carefully to what my honourable friend had to say, and, yes, I know he received a lot of copies of letters that came to me, probably copies addressed to himself, and indeed we as a government realized and recognized over the last number of years, when it has been very difficult to increase budgets and find additional resources-and one area within my department that got additional money year after year was this area because we all know and recognize that people with mental disabilities are individuals who need and will continue to need our support as governments.

2706 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 But the money that we have received in previous years has just really gone to deal with crisis issues where people who are living in the community without the required support-and it went to serve additional people who needed that support-but there really was not any money for agencies. This year I am pleas ed to say that we certainly heard the issues that were raised in the letters, and there has been significant additional support, especially for group homes.

I know that the Coalition of Service Providers certainly met with me and my department, met with others throughout government and talked about the issues, and I am very pleased to say that we were able to address some of their issues in a very significant way this year. I did have the opportunity to meet with the coalition after the budget was tabled and indicate that the funding levels for residential care agencies had increased by 5 percent in this year's budget, which is what they were asking for and I think what we felt was certainly warranted.

So they will have the a bil ity through that funding issue to address some of the wage issues of their staff. Also, there was an issue around emplo yment standards and compliance with empl oyment standards, and we have given them additional money to address those issues. It was around $700,000, in addition to the 5 percent increase to agencies. So that should deal with the employment standards issue, plus it gives agencies an additional 5 percent, and in many instances, I think most of that will go directly to employees. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, according to my calculations, a 5 percent increase on an average wage of$6.75 an hour is 33 cents an hour which would bring them up to an average of, well, no, I do not have the total, but the 5 percent would work out to 33 cents an hour. Some of the figures that I saw in the correspondence and in phone conversations suggested that they would like to bring the wages up to the area of $1 0 an hour, and we know that there is a big discrepancy between people working in large institutions like the Manitoba Development Centre and other institutions and people working in group homes.

Does the minister pla n to go to Treasury Board and cabinet for future wage increases for these group home staff? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I and our government, I think, recognize and realize that sometimes it is very difficult to recruit or retain individuals in this area of service to people in Manitoba who need support. I do want to indicate that I am sensitive to the issues. I think it is a step of good faith in working with these agencies, and we will continue to see what we can do. I cannot make any commitment today.

We do not do multiyear budgeting, but I do want to indicate that we have made a significant effort to get the 5 percent this year, and as we look at what resources might be available next year, we will see what we might be able to do to further address the issue. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, I think the minister said that the Manitoba Coalition of Service Providers was hoping for a 5 percent increase in wages, but in correspondence addressed to members of the Legisla ture, on February 26, 19 98, they say: we trust our concerted effort to receive an increase in our funding by 15 percent has been heard and acted upon by legisla tors who are preparing the budget. So I think probably the Manitoba Coalition of Service Providers is going to be disappointed with a 5 percent increase in wages. *( 1 12 0) Mrs.

Mitchelson: No, as a matter of fact, I have received a very positive letter from them and good response at the meeting I had after the budget. What they had requested was a 15 percent increase over three years, and we have made the commitment. We could not make a commitment, and I could not make a commitment for three years, but we recognized the issues. I mean, they had asked for 5, 5 and 5 over three years, and we were able to accommodate in this year's budget the 5 percent.

Quite frankly, I have received very positive correspondence from many in the community that are very pleased with the effort and the increased support that is available this year. Mr. Martindale: So is the minister committed or going to commit to fight for further increases for these group homes in at least the next two years?

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2707 Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Chairperson, I think I indicated in an answer just a few moments ago that we understand the issues. We are sympathetic to recruitment and retainment of people working in this field. I cannot make a commitment today to additional increased resources in other years, but I do want to indicate that we are very sensitive to the issues that have been raised with us and will continue to work with the coalition and those who are working in the community to be as sensitive and do what we can in the future. I cannot make any commitment today. Mr.

Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, I have some questions under Residential Licensing so maybe we can pass two or three lines here. Mr. Chairperson: Item 9.3.(

a) Regional Operations

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $1 4,283, 800-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $2, 13 7 ,900-p ass. Item 9.3.(

b) Adult Services

(1) Salaries and Emplo yee Benefits $1 ,652, 1 00- pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $552 ,300-pass;

(3) Financial Assistance and External Agencies $73,325, 000-pa ss. Item 9.3.(

c) Manitoba Developmen tal Centre

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $22,869 ,200-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $3,056, 800-pas s. Item 9.3 .(

d) Residential Care Licensing

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Chairperson, the minister will be aware, because I wrote to her on February 16 , about a lic ensed home at 2886 Ness A venue, and also because I talked to one of the staff in the department about problems in this home that I have numerous concerns, especially on behalf of the family of a former resident there.

Very sadly, this resident wandered away from this facil ity twice and the second time was found by a taxi driver walking near the airport, wearing only a coat and slippers in minus 25 degree Celsius weather and ended up in the hospital with severe frostbite. When I phoned and made some inquiries, I found out that this home had been inspected four or five times since June 19 97 and that the licence is in a conditional status.

I also discovered that there were numerous problems at this licensed facil ity, such as a padlock on the kitchen door, not serving food at the correct time, problems with windows being open or open inappropriately, providing relief duty staff for days off, hiring relief staff to do rounds at night, electronic monitoring and numerous other complaints. In spite of that, the residence was not put on a conditional status until January 19 97, or maybe I intended 19 98, I am not sure, after one of their residen ts ended up in the hospital.

I am wondering why, given the numerous complaints about this operator, action was not taken much, much sooner to put the operator on a conditional licence. Mrs. Mitchelson: I know the facil ity that my honourable friend mentions is a facil ity that houses mental health clie nts, which are not clie nts of the Department of Family Services, but nonetheless we have the licensing function and authority through our Residential Care Licensing branch. So I do want to indicate, and I think I have corresponded with my honourable friend just on March 16 of this year with a response to this individual specific case.

I know that staff both from my Residential Licensing branch and from the Department of Health under the Mental Health branch or division or whatever it is have worked together with this facility to ensure that corrective action around all of the concerns and the issues that were raised has been taken. It is my understanding that corrective action has been taken and that this facili ty remains licensed as a result. Mr. Martindale: Does correction action mean that all of the outstanding complain ts were dealt with to the satisfaction of the department so that the conditional lic ence was lifted as a result? Mrs.

Mitchelson: We will continue to monitor them very closely, but, in fact, all of the conditions that were placed on them have been resolved. Mr. Martindale: I would like to go back to the original situation then. I am pleased on behalf of the residents there and their families that all of the outstanding issues have been dealt with satisfactorily, but why was this individual not put on a conditional lic ence much, much sooner.

2708 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 In my letter I said January '97, but the correct date was January 26, '98, according to the minister's letter to me. It seems to me that if the operator had been put on a conditional status much, much sooner or if the department had been much, much more vigilant that we would not have had one of the residents leaving the facil ity and wandering the streets in extremely cold weather. This individual could very easily have been on a street where there was no one driving and died, and this would have been a terrible tragedy.

The fact that they now have electronic alarm monitoring is closing the barn door after the horse is out. I mean, this electronic monitoring should have been put in before people were wandering away, not after. Why was this operator not put on a conditional li cence much, much sooner? Mr. Peter Dyck, Act ing Chairperson, in the Chair Mrs. Mitchelson: We had identified issues with this operator, and I think that the process that the department uses is that they make contact and try to work with the facil ity and the owner to see whether corrective action can or will be undertaken.

If that is not successful, then we move to the conditional lic ence, and a requirement of those conditions being taken off would be that they conform to all of the issues that have been raised. So our process is that rather than the conditional licence right up front, we try to work with the facil ity very closely to see whether they will conform before the need for a conditional licence takes place. So that is the process that we use. Mr.

Chairperson, my understanding is that when we identify problems or issues with individual facilities, in many, many instances just the discussion with them and the working with them resolves the issue without having to go to a conditional lic ence. But if we have more difficulty with the facili ty and we find that they are not moving forward in a satisfactory manner, then we do give them a conditional licence and work very aggressively to make sure that they comply or lose their licence. * (113 0) Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, the minister has given me a very fine general answer about what is supposed to be the normal process in the li censing branch, but my specific question was why, given all the problems with this particular licensed facil ity and its operator, the operator was not put on a conditional status much, much sooner. For example, the individual that we are talking about had wandered away on a previous occasion, and many of these issues were outstanding not in January 19 98, when the operator was put on a conditional status, but months before.

It seems to me that if the department or if the licensing branch were to put somebody on a conditional status, it sends then a message that if they do not clean up their act, they are going to lose their licence and therefore lose their source of income. An Honourable Member: Oh, that is tough talk. Mr. Martindale: Well, the minister of something here wants to make fun of a very sad situation, the Minister of I, T and T, where someone wandered away from a licensed facil ity and could have died. Point of Order Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): If the member wants to reflect what I said, he should do it properly, not improperly. I just said it was tough talk, Mr. Chairman, which was accurate. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): The minister does not have a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. * * * The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): The honourable member for Burrows, to please continue. Mr. Martindale: I think the Keisman family will find these remarks of the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism very interesting when I send them Hansard.

We are talking about a serious situation here where someone could have died. I guess I will repeat my question to the minister. Why were they not put on a conditional status much sooner, which would have sent the very serious message to this operator that the operator needed to comply immediately and not drag their feet any longer?

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 2709 Mrs. Mitchelson : I do want to indicate to my honourable friend that we would prefer, and I do not think this is new practice just with our government, but I think in many instances we would prefer to work with operators of facilities in a co-operative way to try to get them to conform to licensing standards rather than walking in with a heavy hand shutting down a facil ity and turfing people out on the street with nowhere to go.

I think that is the right direction to take, and we do not issue conditional lic ences without thinking through and trying to work through the issues with the operator. As I said in many, many instances, we find that operators will comply without the need for a conditional licence, but we have from time to time had to close facili ties down because there has not been co-operation from the facil ity operator. I do want to indicate that the issues that we had with this particula r facility were not issues only around the individual that my honourable friend references.

We had some issues with other things in that facil ity that we were working with them on, but there is not a requirement on behalf of facilities to have an electr onic monitoring system. That is not a requirement of li censing, and we were already working with the facil ity when this unfortunate incident happened with this individual. I can assure my honourable friend that the facil ity now with the elec tronic monitoring device should never have this problem occur again. So there has been co-operation and there has been working-and I feel very badly for Mr. Keisman's family and the circumstance that happened.

I do want to indicate that corrective action has been taken in that respect, and the electronic alarm system should allevia te that I 00 percent. So this facility has gone beyond what is required under licensing, and that is a result of very significant close working with them to get them to comply. They have gone over and above what they needed to do to comply with licensing, and, I think, as a result, we have a safer facil ity but we have not stopped monitoring. We will be working and monitoring them very closely over the next period of time. Mr.

Martindale: Can the minister tell me how many li censed facili ties like this there are that her department licenses? Mrs. Mitchelson: There are 840 licensed facilities that my department licenses, but they are licences for the mentally disabled, for mental health clie nts, for the aged and infirm, for child and family services. There are 32 mental health facilities, out of that 840 that are of this size, the one that we are referencing. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell me, out of the 840 that are licensed by this branch, how many currently are on a conditional li cence? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, we would have to check that and get back to my honourable friend. The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): Item 9.3.(

d) Residential Care Licensing

(1) Salaries and Emplo yee Benefits $235,400 -pass; 3(d)

(2) Other Expenditures $35, 000-pass. Item 9.3 .(

e) Office of the Vulnerable Persons' Commissioner

(1) Salaries and Empl oyee Benefits $234,800 -pas s;

(2) Other Expenditures $248,3 00- pass. Resolution 9.3 : RESOLVED that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $1 1 8,630, 600 for Family Services, Community Living, for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 99. Item 9.4. Child and Family Services (

a) Child and Family Support

(1) Child, Family and Community Developm ent (

a) Salaries and Emplo yee Benefits $2,899,800. Shall the item pass? * (1 14 0) Mrs. Mitchelson : May I introduce staf f first? The Acting Chairperson (Mr. Dyck): The minister will introduce her staff, please. Mrs. Mitchelson: I just wanted to introduce staff. just have to get the real official titles for the introductions. We have David Langtry who is the ADM of Child and Family Services; Phil Goodman who is the executive director, Child and Family Support; and Fred Be sant who is the divisional senior manager, Financial Planning and Review.

27 10 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 Mr. Martindale: I notice that in the Estimates book, under Activity Identification, staff are responsible for budgeting. I am sure that is a major function of these people at the table, at least some of them. We know that the budget of Winnipeg Child and Family Services had to be augmented through a special warrant of $8.8 milli on, which I have raised before.

Now, on the positive side, we do not want to be limi ted by a finite budget amount and say when the budget runs out in February or March or whenever, that the agency shuts down and there is no more service. So, you know, it is appropriate that the minister went to cabinet and got a special warrant so the agency can continue to provide service. But my questions have to do with the adequacy of the budget-planning process for especially Winnipeg Child and Family Services. I know and the minister knows that the Auditor has commented on this in the past and so has the Children's Advocate, I believe.

I am wondering why this continues to be a problem year after year where either there has to be a special warrant or there is a deficit, and the department has to bail them out, I guess, in the next fiscal year. I wonder if the minister can tell me what the problem is with budgeting in this area. Mrs. Mitchelson: I know it has been an ongoing issue, one that has been going on for years and years.

Ultimately, I think I want to leave on the record the fact that we have never denied the support to the Winnipeg agency, and, in fact, although it has been supplementary funding or special warrant or whatever, if there is a deficit, we have always covered that deficit. So I want it to be clea r that we have never denied the support for chil dren when the need has been there. But it has been an issue that has been raised on an ongoing basis in many different reports. I know the Auditor has commented.

I know that the Operational Review of Winnipeg Child and Family did indicate that as an issue, that we always seem to be deficit financing rather than providing what was required. We have talked to the agency about it, to the board, many times. I think you will find that we have addressed that issue this year in the budget for the first time, that we actually are funding the Winnipeg agency this year based on what they say their requirements are going to be.

In the past, we have never sort of given them that full amount, but this is the first time ever that we have increased the budget to the dollar amount that Winnipeg believes they are going to need to provide service. So we will see what happens at the end of the year. Hopefully, we have addressed the issues that have been raised over the years by different reports and different authorities. Mr. Martindale: Mr.

Chairperson, I am sorry, I do not have the list of grants to external agencies because I think I loaned it to my collea gue, but does that mean that if we compared the budget for Winnipeg Child and Family Services for '97-98 with '98-99, we would see a big increase, and if so, how much? Mrs. Mitchelson: We budgeted last year for $57,8 43,000, and budgeted this year for $63,33 6,000, including Family Support Innovations Fund and exceptional circumstances funding. I guess that would not be in the grant lis t. Well, you do not have the grant lis ting in front of you anyway, but that is okay. Mr.

Martindale: So last year they were budgeted for $57,84 3,000, I think the minister said, plus they got a special warrant of$8.8 million. This year their budget is $63 million. But the minister is saying that that was what they asked for. Mrs. Mitchelson: As a result of the operational review, Mr. Chairperson, we have been working with the Winnipeg agency to find out what the actual amount of expenditure should be. This is what they have asked for. This is what they believe they are going to need to spend this year. Mr.

Martindale: Since the total for last year, including the special warrant, would be approximately $66,643,000, if my calculations are correct, and this year they are asking for $63 ,33 6,000, the agency must believe they can get by on $3 million less. If so, could the minister tell me why? Mrs. Mitchelson: Yes, we have worked with the agency as a result of the operational review on a lot of the recommendations that came forward. With the leadership now at the head of Winnipeg Child and Family Services agency being new there, going through

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 271 1 a strategic planning process, they have already estimated that, as a result of some initiatives that have been undertaken already, they believe that they can save a millio n dolla rs from hotel placements, close to a million dolla rs that was being spent on placing children in hotels. They believe there are more appropriate placement options available, and it will be at a cost saving. That is one area where they believe there can be significant changes. They are looking at, certainly, administrative functions that might be overlapped or dupl icated.

They have never really amalgamated the four areas in a significant way in the city of Winnipeg with the changes. As they move to centralize program functions within the agency, they believe that they can save well over a million dolla rs. So those are the kinds of things that they are looking at. As I said, they are going through a strategic planning process right now on whether there are better ways to deliver services, whether there is a way to decrease the number of children that have to come into care.

We all know that we have a very high number of child ren coming into care in Manitoba, as compared to a lot of other provinces, so they are looking at better ways to deliver service to child ren and families. * (1 15 0) We know that we are working with them on the family group conferencing model that we have put in place to try to work with families and extended families and neighbourhoods, where there is not a protection issue, to keep child ren out of care.

So there are all kinds of new activities that are ongoing that Winnipeg Child and Family is partnering with us and the community on to see if we cannot find better solutions. So I think all of us would like ultimately to see families healthier, families staying together wherever possible.

I think a lot of the new initiatives that we have undertaken in the early child development, some strategies around adolescent pregnancy that will, hopefully, lead to fewer adolescent pregnancies, but also less need for the child welfare system for those children who are born to young single mothers that seem to require the services of our child welfare system at six times greater degree than other families. So there is activity ongoing. We recognize and realize there is a long way to go and lots to do. We are working at it, and they are too. Mr.

Martindale: The minister says that the agency has identified $2-million worth of savings-a million in hotels and a million from amalgamation-and that leaves $1 ,30 7 ,000. Where is the other million and a third savings coming from? Mrs. Mitchelson : It is my understanding that they have gone through their budget line by line and identified areas where there may be nonrecurring costs. There are some $600,000 in legal fees and other nonrecurring costs that they believe can be taken right out of their budget. They are consoli dating their after hours service so they will have a more efficient and effective service.

There are some savings there, so they have gone line by line, and they have identified larger amounts or smaller amounts in each line. It does add up to some over $3 million. Mr. Martindale: The minister is hinting at further amalgamation. Are there plans to amalgamate offices or to rent offices that are in one location instead of a number of locations? What pla ns are in the works? Mrs. Mitchelson: As I indicated earlier, they are right in the middle of a strategic pla nning process. So I would hate to try to predetermine what the agency might decide to do.

I think the main focus and objective of the planning process is to try to ensure that families are served in the most comprehensive way and the best way possible in our city. They will be looking at ways to do that. I think that their ultimate end goal is to try to ensure that the resource is available, that families and children get the best service possible. So I am anticipating that the process they are going through right now will lead to a better child welfare service deli very in the city of Winnipeg. Mr.

Martindale: The minister cannot say on the record that they are going to save $1 million in amalgamation and then, when I ask a subsequent question, say that they are in the middle of their strategic planning. Either they are saving $1 million from amalgamation or they are not. If they are saving $1 million from amalgamation, I would be interested in

27 12 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 knowing how, in what ways are they planning to save that amount of money from amalgamation. Mrs. Mitchelson: The agency, in working with us through the operational review, has indicated that-! said there was $1 million in savings on hotel rooms, because they will have better placement plans for children. That was one place. We did talk about administrative efficiencies. I indicated they went line by line through their budget and looked at where there might be efficiencies. They are going through a strategic planning process.

I guess, I do not profess to be an expert in sort of the hands-on del ivery of child welfare in the province of Manitoba or in the city of Winnipeg. I do not want to predetermine what those in the field, working in the field, will come up with through that strategic planning process. At the administrative level in the agency, they have indicated as they have gone through their budget line by line that there are some efficiencies that can be found. There are some nonrecurring costs that they do not need to book in their budget or put in their budget, and they are removing those things.

I think they are taking a very responsible approach, and I want to give the agency and the front line workers the benefit of the doubt through the strategic planning process, as they move to trying to ensure that they be the very best that they can be and serve the families and children in Winnipeg, the very best that they can, within the budget that they belie ve they need to achieve that. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair They have come up with these figures and these numbers.

They are going through the process right now to try to ensure that they can deliver not only upon the budget that is approved but upon the service to the families and children that they serve. So I am not giving them any clear direction on what that should be. They are the experts.

They are the people who are doing the job on our behalf in Manitoba or in the city of Winnipeg, and I want to give them the abil ity under new leadership to develop that plan and to look at new ways of-God knows, I mean, we have been putting more and more money into the system year after year after year, millions and milli ons of dolla rs more, and are we seeing a healthier society today? I am not sure. I do not know whether families are any healthier. We are putting more money into early intervention.

We are putting more money into programs to try to ensure that people do not need to access the child welfare system, but I want to give them the benefit of the doubt to look at the direction they are taking, to look at innovative ways of del ivering service. I guess, we will have to judge them based on their desire. I know that everyone who is out there working in the system wants to see healthier families. They want to ensure that they can protect children when there is a need to protect them.

But obviously in Manitoba we are not doing everything right or we should be seeing fewer children coming into care and healthier families. I am not sure we are seeing that yet. That is one of the reasons why I said earlier, under our reinvestment through the National Child Benefit, that we focused on early intervention. All indication and all research show that there is less need for the kinds of services that we provide throughout the child welfare system if we can create healthier families, healthier children born to parents who have the tools to parent. It is frustrating.

Being the Minister of Family Services is not the easiest job in the whole world. I would love to see healthy, happy families in every comer of our province, in every part of our city. The reality is that it is not there. We have to continue to look for ways to do things better and to serve families better. Mr. Martindale: Could the minister tell me how many children on average are in hotels in the month of March or April 19 98? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Chairperson, we would have to get the exact figures, but I am told that it is probably an average of about 15 per night in comparison to last year, when there might have been a high of 84, so there has been significant improvement in our ability to pla ce in other than hotels. Mr. Martindale: I think, going from memory, the numbers were about 42 per night on average in Febru ary '97. It is down. But how many are in four bed units? Mrs. Mitchel son: We can obtain that information from the agency. We do not have it.

May 7, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 27 13 Mr. Martindale: How many are in other kinds of temporary placements? Mrs. Mitchelson: We will undertake to get that information also. Mr. Chairperson: The hour being 12 noon, I am interrupting the proceedings. The Committee of Supply will resume sitting this afternoon following the conclusion of Routine Proceedings. NORTHERN AFFAIRS Mr. Chairperson (Ben Sveinson): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the Estimates of the Department of Northern Affairs. Does the honourable Minister of Northern Affairs have an opening statement? Hon. David Newman (Minister of Northern Affairs): I do. Mr. Chair, I am very pleased to present the 1998-99 Estimates of Manitoba Northern Affairs. We have had a year of change and progress and expect to tackle some important challenges in our efforts to fulfill the department's vision.

I am guided by and see-and guide our actions along this vision statement which is to improve the quality of life of northern and aboriginal Manitobans to a level consistent with that of all Manitobans. Our priorities, which like our vision transcend the limi ts of fiscal years, are to do things differently than we have in the past. The priorities are closely linked to basic facts about the North. Northern and aboriginal Manitobans rank among our most disadvantaged citizens with respect to quality of life and participation in Manitoba society.

We cannot truly enjoy a high quality of life until all our citizens participate fully in society. Our efforts to secure this status for the North must be supported by skilled human resources, long-term viability of essential social programs and services and investments in infrastructure and community development and innovation. Exercising control over local governments is a crucial part of the process of having community leaders take responsibil ity for the health of their communities.

Accordingly, in the next three years we will assist up to 29 Northern Affairs communities to become more self relia nt and take charge of their own local futures to a greater extent. The communities will be given the control and decision-making responsibility for their own administration and the resources they need to be self-relia nt. *( 1010) My department conducted an extensive study of the future requirements to maintain the current infra structure and to continue to operate the present level of municipal services in northern communities.

As part of this process, we examined the municipal systems of four other provinces, federal Indian Affairs and Manitoba municipalities. Our priorities for implementing self-relia nce to a greater extent are to ensure that responsibility and control is placed at the local level and at the same time that communities will have the capacity to provide sustainable municipal services in the future. Our guiding principles are intended to be simple and understandable. In the next few months, we will be shaping the way we will work with the communities in this Sustainable Communities initiative.

We will be determining what expertise we will need to obtain and proceed to meet these requirements as soon as possible. Mr. Chair, I have met with mayors and council lors of a number of individual remote communities. In addition, I met last summer and just before Christmas with northern mayors and councils in a body in a workshop kind of format.

I believe, and said, that governance is not just about municipal infrastructure, the equipment for municipal services, but also, and especially, is about personal development and education and involves many different disciplines in the process of moving towards a healthy, vibrant community. It is about social conditions in communities, the health of the citizens, the education of the children, recreation and other human things that produce and sustain a community's quality of life. It is also about taking charge of the machinery and responsibil ity for adm inistering communities.

It is about ownership of and responsibil ity and accountabil ity for decisions that are made and processes that are established.

27 14 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 1998 We have identified eight communities. The eight communities involved in the initiative in the first fiscal year are Bissett, Camperville, Cormorant, Isla nd Lake, Pikwitonei, Pine Dock, Wabowden and Waterhen. Through higher Treasury Board allocations, we are increasing overall municipal grants by $500,000.

The funding will be sufficient to ensure the sustainabil ity of municipal services for the following areas: competitive salaries to attract or retain qualified staff, capabil ity for staff development to meet ever-changing technology, adequate funding to ensure environmental health and safety standards are met, and flexibil ity to meet unexpected expenditures and emergencies such as water main breaks. Councils will assume a shared responsibil ity for the costs of services. They will develop and monitor accountabil ity and performance standards. In the past year, Mr.

Chair, my staff have worked to prepare the communities for autonomy. They provided support to train community employees. As examples, 27 persons qualified in cardiopulmon ary resuscitation and first-aid. More than 200 hours of one-on-one training was given to community clerks to improve job knowledge and skills. A community constable was given a week of special training. Several water and waste pl ant operators attended a special seminar to upgrade their knowledge and skills and attain provincial standards in their fields. Mr.

Chair, 90 percent of the capital projects approved for last year were executed directly by the effect of communities with some help from the department. This represents a major achievement in communities taking on capital responsibil ity. In addition, 95 percent of them are already participating in lo ng-term planning which will provide the basis for them developing their own business plans in the coming years.

In the past, the department monitored the administration, finances and staff of the northern communities, but my intent is that the traditional historical role of the department, and specifically the Local Government Development Division, will shift. As the community grows, the division will become more the adviser, facil itator, motivator and liaison with all provincial government departments and other governments and organizations and less the hands-on doer. This is a natural process of vision, evolution and change, and through it I believe we in our northern communities can accomplish great things together.

In addition, a co-ordi nated effort and commitment from other government departments and agencies will help give communities the abil ity to determine priorities and develop economic initiatives and strategies for community development. My department will work with northern residents, communities and other stakeholders to build a strategic approach to northern develo pment through individual community develop ment and partnerships. This approach is intended to work in conjunction with the sustainable community initiative.

In support of this goal, Northern Affairs and Rural Development will host a special northern community develo pment workshop on April 30 and May 1 at the 1998 Rural Forum in Brandon. The seminars at the workshop comprised presentations and discussions on northern challenges and opportunities. They also focused on potential strategies and process that may provide for community input in northern development decision making and priority setting. It was quite interesting, Mr.

Chair, that there was very significant representation from the Northwest Territories, and in particular the emerging territory ofNunavut, both youth and pol itical leadership and community leadersh ip. Mr. Chair, I believe one of the most important things we can achieve together is the building of social capital for the future. We need to ensure a healthy sustainable future for all our communities-north ern, rural and urban--in economic and social terms.

Our government has decided to develop policies and programs that focus on building social capital in communities and has adopted a set of guiding principles for such initiatives. I would like to outline them. An initiative must have a community-driven focus and be designed to put the community in the driver's seat; in other words, the service or program must be driven by the community it serves and meet needs as outlined by the community. The service, program or initiative must have sustainable outcomes.

It must enhance the ability of the group or community to function independently and ensure that this state of affairs can continue in the future. The government's role in this matter must be that of facil itator or resource

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 27 15 provider. We can support an initiative, and we can help bring potential partners together and help put together a service, program or solution to a challenge, but we should not be and will not be the one solely responsible in financial or operational terms. The primary focus of the initiative will be on individual and community development, which I will call the fundamental solution. The secondary focus is on specific issues relating to the initiative.

Programs and policies must incorporate a holistic strategy; they must have economic, social and spiritual elements. The community must be invited to participate in policy development at the beginning of the initiative in order to be a true partner. Services must be inclusive, accessible, effective, comprehensive, responsive, and accountable to children, families and communities. The focus of a service, program and initiative is to be prevention and early intervention.

If we can act to prevent a problem or tackle it at an early stage, we can reduce the costs of that problem to society in general and the community in particular and devote resources and efforts more productively. * (10 20) Finally, all possible areas of partnership should be explored. This means aboriginal communities and organizations, departments and agencies of the provincial and federal governments, other levels of government, the business community and other parts of the private sector.

I want to note some pertinent comments Royal Bank Executive Vice-Presid ent Charlie Coffee at the recent Metis National Council symposium in Winnipeg. He said there is much to gain from buildin g relationships between aboriginal peoples, governments and the corporate sector. To this he added that we need to find new ways to forge partnerships among the leaders in our community to achieve shared goals and tangible, measurable results. I would now like to tum to specific policies and programs in my department and other departments that focus on building social capital and forging partner ships to achieve results.

Partners for Careers is one example of an attempt to develop a partnership with the corporate sector. It is a partnership of the Native Affairs Secretariat, Education and Training, and Human Resources Development Canada. It has pla ced over 325 aboriginal graduates in careers in its first year and expects to increase this number in the coming year, while strengthening partnerships between the business community and the aboriginal community. The program is operated by two aboriginal organizations: the Centre for Aboriginal Human Resource Developme nt and the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business.

Partners for Careers is a significant achievement, something we hope to build on this year. Mr. Chair, I would like to share some quotes taken from evaluation interviews with a grad placement and a business where a grad was placed. First from a placement: We must get the message to students that there are so many opportunities out there. Partners for Careers helps students realize they can benefit from opportunities and resources. It feels good to go into a business and see an aboriginal person working there. Having aboriginal people provide service is very positive for · businesses.

It also helps to broaden awareness in the larger community by having aboriginal workers in the workplace. And from a business: We recruit on an ongoing basis and are always looking for quality candidates. Partners for Careers provide good-quality resumes. They respond quickly. The Aboriginal Single Window Initiative in Winnipeg is a partnership between Manitoba and the federal government to provide more co-ordination of programs and services to aboriginal peoples. The Native Affairs Secretariat co-ordi nates the provincial input for this initiative.

Since it began last year, Aboriginal Single Window has produced a number of partnership initiatives. Here are two examples: a $5-million program for training aboriginal people living in Winnipeg; and working with Child ren of the Earth High School to sponsor the development of a book on aboriginal health issues from

27 16 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 1998 an urban perspective, Healthy Visions for a Healthier Future, which was launched April 9, 1998, and I commend this book to all of you. It is written by Richard Courchene, and it is what I call the first baby born to the Single Window Initiative that has a real tangible aspect and has been developed by a member of the younger generation and is designed to make a contribution to other young people particula rly. It is based on elders and cultural teachings.

Mochikitahwak offers sport and recreation programs and leadership training in remote northern communities over the summer months when children are out of school. Over 1,15 0 young people participated in last summer's program, and we expect that a similar number will benefit again this summer. The program is supported by the Justice Initiatives Fund, as it has a significant crime prevention benefit for the communities. In the matter of aboriginal gaming, we have negotiated to establish 29 gaming commissions, representing 31 First Nations.

We have also entered into video lottery terminal siteholder agreements with 15 First Nations, involving a total of 33 1 VL Ts on reserves. These VL Ts are generating annual net revenues of over $12 million for the participating communities. In partnership with Industry, Trade and Tourism, Northern Affairs will support a SEED Winnipeg project designed to combat poverty and assist in the renewal of inner-city communities through services that help low income groups and individuals become financially self supporting. A major focus will be in assisting aboriginal individuals and groups in developing businesses.

My department works closely with the Children and Youth Secretariat in developing policy and programs or initiatives that will assist aboriginal children and youths. I am pleased that my department has seconded an aboriginal employee to the secretariat. Margo Thomas of our Selkir k office will assist in advancing programs and initiatives that are culturally appropriate for northern Manitoba and aboriginal people. The department has assisted the Manitoba Round Table on Environment and Economy in the develop ment of the urban aboriginal strategy.

This will be a guide to government for policy and programs related to inner-city Winnipeg and for all other individuals, families, agencies, and other governments who relate in any way to the aboriginal people in the urban area of Winnipeg. Our government has pledged financial support to the Manitoba Aboriginal Sport and Recreation Council in their bid to bring the North American Indigenous Games to Winnipeg in the year 2001 or 2002.

The site selection committee is expected to make a decision this summer and will be visiting the city the weekend after next, I believe, with a view to doing due dil igence with respect to the Winnipeg bid. Manitoba continues to support the Winnipeg Native All iance outreach program to help aboriginal youth to avoid gangs and seek more positive lifestyles. The founder of this initiative, Troy Rupert, received an award in 1997 for his efforts in assisting aboriginal youth in Winnipeg.

Manitoba experiences the second highest rate of missing children in Canada as well as the highest runaway rate per capita in Canada. A large proportion of these children are aboriginal. We are assisting the Ganawenimig, which means taking care, Safety and Prevention Program of Child Find Manitoba. This is a multifaceted program of preventive measures, education, advocacy, searching and reuniting child ren, where appropriate, with family, social and psychological supports.

My department hosted a three-day community recreation assessment and planning workshop involving staff and partnering the Department of Cult ure, Heritage and Citizenship and 16 community leaders and recreation directors. The workshop provided important direction and recommendations upon which we can continue to improve this essential community-based program.

Benchmarks and key indicators is a department-led initiative to develop a system of macro level benchmarks and key indicators in partnership with provincial, federal, and civic government departments which reflect our collective progress in Manitoba toward a better quality of life for aboriginal Manitobans.

May 7, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 27 17 The Employment First initiative is helping to improve opportunities for persons to becoming employed and to reducing welfare costs. The program helps employ ment and income assistance clie nts find opportunities to work and achieve their potential. Through partner ships with Family Services and community councils, we use social benefits to help clients develop job skills, gain work experience, and contribute to their community.

As a result of the programs, 74 recipients have found work with community councils, four have found permanent jobs, and 12 have left social assistance. We have three tables or forums for tripartite negotiations. The Native Affairs Secretariat leads in those negotiations that involve the Manitoba Metis Federation, the Aboriginal Council of Winnipeg for the city, and Sioux Valley, in a community-based self government process. The federal government is represented at the MMF and ACW tables by the Privy Council office and in Sioux Valley by Indian Affairs. Mr.

Chair, the tripartite process with the MMF and the federal government deals with a wide range of issues of concern and priorities identified by the Metis people in Manitoba. They include economic develop ment, education and training, housing, child ren and youth, family services, health, justice and natural resources. The goal of this process is consistent with the provincial policies of enhancing sustainability and building capacity in social capital. We are also proud to participate with the MMF in establishing the Louis Riel Institute. This is a unique institution that emerged from the tripartite process.

It was incorporated by provincial le gislation, and its authority includes advocacy, education and training. The tri partite process with the Aboriginal Council of Winnipeg and the federal government is a new initiative which began in 1997-98. This forum will address issues identified as priorities by the aboriginal people of Winnipeg in consultations conducted by the ACW and the Urban Aboriginal Strategy. These are emplo yment training and economic development, children and youth, health and wellness, and justice.

The objective is to develop practical, effective solutions to the priority needs of the urban aboriginal community. Some aboriginal institutions have already been developed and are providing unique and innovative services for their cli ents in Winnipeg. Examples are the Aboriginal Health and Wellness Centre, Aboriginal Legal Services of Winnipeg and the Aboriginal Business Centre. In 1998-99, one of the priorities is to develop a proposal for a multipurpose youth centre in the Winnipeg core area. *

(1030) The Sioux Valley process involves Manitoba and Indian Affairs with the Sioux Valley First Nation in community-based self-government negotiations. Manitoba is guided in this process by the Manitoba policy on First Nations government. The objective is to achieve a self-governing community through federal enabling legislation which would replace the Indian Act. Mr. Chair, as members know, we made important progress in the past year in treaty land entitlement and Northern Flood Agreement negotiations.

In TLE, we have taken a proactive approach toward resolving outstanding entitlements and related Manitoba obl igations under the 1929-1930 Manitoba Natural Resources Transfer Agreement. All 26 bands in Manitoba with valida ted outstanding claims have now entered into agreements with Manitoba and the federal government to address their claims. Since 1994, seven bands have signed individual TLE agreements. Last May 29, Canada, Manitoba, and the Treaty Land Entitlement Committee of Manitoba, which represents 19 bands, signed a TLE Framework Agreement in Opaskwayak.

These bands are now in the process of ratifying this agreement. Six bands have ratified the agreement to date. Of these, Rolling River, led by Chief Dennis White bird, and Buffalo Point, led by Chief John Thunder, signed individual treaty entitlement agreements under the framework agreement, March 1998. The other four bands are expected to sign simila r agreements in the near future. The impl ementation of the framework agreement will see up to 1.1 million acres of land transferred to Canada by Manitoba to be set aside as reserve land. Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if I can ask the minister how long he is going to be in his opening statement, because he has been at it

27 18 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 1998 for over half an hour now, and our intention was that we were going to try and finish this department by the end of the workday. So I do not mean to be disrespectful. Just maybe we could hurry it up a little bit. Mr. Chairperson : We have gone on for 20 minutes. Mr. Newman: I will be another five minutes maximum. The impleme ntation of the framework agreement will see up to-th is amount represents less than 1 percent of Manitoba's land base. In addition, up to $76 million will be provided by Canada as a cash component of the settlement.

It is expected that this agreement will provide TLE bands with an opportunity to become more self-relia nt and will increase their capacity to establish partnerships with other bands, communities, companies and other Manitobans. These settlem ents are expected to facilit ate increased and improved economic and social development with a view to building healthy and sustainable communities.

The settlement of these outstanding land issues will also result in increased opportunities for businesses and companies, especially those in the mining and forestry sectors, by creating an improved environment of certainty in land tenure in Manitoba. Under the Northern Flood Agreement, Mr. Chair, four comprehensive settlements relating to outstanding claims have been comple ted to date. The signatory bands are Nelson House, Norway House, Split Lake and York Factory. The agreements are in the impleme ntation stage with settlement proceeds flowing to the bands.

The total settlement proceeds related to the agreements are approximately $220 mill ion, of which about $12 5 million will be maintained in band trusts to fund NF A implem entation from investment income. The funds are spent on community-approved initiatives such as infrastructure, social, cultural and economic development programs. These agreements will put the capacity to be healthy communities in the hands of the four NF A bands by giving control of the settlement funds directly to the people.

The compensation land given to the bands totals about 160,000 acres which will be transferred to reserve, adding to the band's land base. In addition, 4,800 acres in fee-simple land is being selected by the bands to be held by land corporations established under the agreements. Several institutions and boards have been created as a result of the imple mentation work of the various bands. These include developmen t corporations and resource co-management boards. Three resource co-management boards have been created as part of these settlements and the fourth is in the process of appointing representatives.

These boards are joint efforts between the bands and the province to develop and recommend land use and resource management plans for the specific resource manage ment areas established under each of the agreements. Manitoba is working towards resolving its NF A oblig ations to Cross Lake as we have done with the other four First Nations. In a March 16, 1998, letter to Manitoba Hydro, Cross Lake indicated that they were engaged in further community discussion, consultation and strategic development and felt it would not be productive to meet. Mr.

Chair, I have communicated to Cross Lake that I am prepared to wait for the results of this process and review any reasonable proposal that may result from the community review. At this time, we are waiting to learn from the First Nation their views and ideas for NF A imple mentation pursuant to the 1977 agreement. We are also working to resolve longstanding issues with Fox Lake First Nation, including land and hydro developm ent impacts.

We have entered into discussions with the band regarding these issues and propose that a framework for negotiations be developed so that the parties can understand what has been discussed to date and what still has to be covered. Mr. Chair, I would like to express a personal point or two about the future. Bringing northern residents and aboriginal peoples into the mainstream of our economic, political, policy making and social processes is a challenge.

I welcome it personally, and as a Manitoba minister know that it is consistent with our history as the bridge between peoples, geographic sections and ideas in Canada. This, we should remember, is a function we inherited from the Metis people. I intend to build on the roles I have assumed and apply my own style to the tasks I have taken on: things

May 7, 1998 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 27 19 like meeting, talking with and working with northern aboriginal leaders with a value-driven vision and those who want to move forward; developing and maintaining effective working relationships with federal ministers; working with organizations, communities, other departments and other governments to break down or bypass barriers to achieve realistic solutions to current challenges; facil itating relationships and partnerships with the business community; developing and expressing a vision of where we are going and where we should be going and where our partners want to go; facil itating the unleashing of the enormous unrealized potential in northern and aboriginal communities, especially in aboriginal youth that could be used to build sustainable communities for future generations.

Mr. Chair, the programs and process I have outlined will lead to sustainable community development in an integrated holistic way. We are confident that enabling the citizens of these communities to take an active role in meeting the economic, social-including health, education and employment-and environmental needs will improve the future for their children in northern Manitoba. Finally, Mr. Chair, I would like to thank my new deputy minister, Oliver Boulette, and his stafffor their dedicated work in the past year as we prepared and embarked on processes that will produce great changes in northern Manitoba.

They have helped me to communicate my points of view to northern residents and to learn the views and life experiences of the North and aboriginal peoples. I look forward to building on the work we have accomplis hed and strengthening the initiatives now in progress.

I would also like to recognize the excelle nt work done by Harvey Bostrom and his team at the Native Affairs Secretariat and JeffPolakoffin agreements and administration who has now become the Assistant Deputy Minister of Northern Affairs replacing Oliver Boulette, who has been promoted to deputy minister of both Energy and Mines and Northern Affairs and responsible for Native Affairs. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the Minister ofNorthern Affairs for those comments. Does the official opposition critic, the honourable member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), have an opening statement? Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Chairman, I do not really have a text that I can read from as far as making an opening statement goes. Well, first of all, I wanted to also thank the minister for his rather leng thy opening statement. I would also extend congratulations to Oliver for having been appointed deputy minister. Oliver and I went to the same school in Cranberry, and I am not going to say too much about how he behaved in school other than to say that he was a good student, I think, Oliver? And Harvey, I have known Harvey from even before I came here eight years ago.

I also thank him for his dedication to his work at Northern Affairs and also congratulate Jeff for having been promoted to the ADM level. I just wanted to say, Mr. Chair, that Oliver probably remembers some eight years ago, when I first sat here in 19 91 and I am going through my first Estimates, it was a new process for me at the time, but I was very interested in lis tening to goals and objectives, statements and mission statements, and how things were going to be achieved and so on. Certainly the planning documents were there, the mission statements were there and so forth.

Of course, I am not entirely immune to that kind of process, having done it myself at the band level, at OCN, when I was chief, making long-term plans and medium and short term and having to develop our own mission statements and goals and objectives and so forth. So I was at the time impressed with all these varying good statements that were put on record by the then Minister of Northern Affairs Mr. Downey. I thought maybe I was a little bit naive too at the time, but I thought this kind of stuff that I see here will be good for aboriginal people, particularly those who reside in the North. Mr.

Chair, like I give credit where credit is due. give credit to the government for having entered into partnership programs with aboriginal people and other levels of government within the city of Winnipeg, because everyone knows that that has been long overdue. So I give where credit is due; I am not afraid to do that. *

(1040) 2720 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 I would also bring to the minister's attention again the statements that I have read in this year's budget documents. I have even lis tened to him again this morning, lots of nice words, working to bring aboriginal people into the mainstream, value driven, except I had lis tened to those words, and I had read those words in the spring of'91 when I first had to sit through this process. In a little while we will be going through the budget, but I was going through some historical information and preparing for this process here this morning.

For me, if we were real ly going to tackle the problems that face our people up North, particularly those who are Metis in the community councils, I have always said to the people that the community councils of the Metis people have been the ones who have kind ofbeen left on the sidelines while First Nations might have been making a lot of progress in their development.

So I have always viewed the Department ofNorthern Affairs as being a critical department hoping that it will, for example, increase in budget, maybe broaden its scope of responsibil ity, perhaps decentralize more and more responsibil ity to the communities-and I will get into that a little later on. But let me just say that I want to co-o perate with the minister as he goes about in his job as Minister of Northern Affairs.

I would also like to say that just because I am willing to co-op erate with him does not mean that I have to keep quiet like a nice little boy and be afraid to upset him, because as I see it-let me put it this way, I see myself as not just a member of the Legisla tive Assembly representing a riding which happens to be largely aboriginal. I see myself as a representative of my people here in this Legisla ture, the aboriginal people, First Nations and Metis people, because we all consider ourselv es as being one.

So whenever I discuss issues from time to time, yes, I will disagree with a minister because there are issues, I think, that have been outstanding for a long time and they need to be resolved. The la st thing that I want to say, Mr. Chair, is I do not know if you were here last year in Estimates, but I had asked then that the format that I am more comfortable in following is just to go through general questions, and then at the end go through the budget line by line. So I would ask the minister again this year to see if he would allow us to do that so we can get into general questioning right away.

I would like to give my coll eague a little bit of time to make his comments. Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: We thank the critic of the official opposition for those remarks. Mr. Newman: Thank you for those remarks. I was here last year, and we agreed on that approach last year. I certainly am prepared to agree again this year. I think that is a very useful approach to follow. Mr. Chairperson: Agreed? [agreed] Under Manitoba practice, debate of the Minister's Sal ary is traditionally the last item considered for the Estimates of the department.

Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this item and now proceed with consideration of the next line. Before we do that, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table , and we ask that the minister introduce his staff present. Mr. Newman: I would like to introduce my deputy minister, Oliver Boulette; Assistant Deputy Minister Jeff Polak off; director of Native Affairs Secretariat, Harvey Bostrom; and Lorraine Macauley who is budget administration out of the northern office. Mr. Lathlin: I think where I would like to start this morning is with Manitoba Hydro.

I know the minister referenced the Cross Lake chief and council, but I would like to ask him to maybe give us just a little more information as to what the status is between Cross Lake, Manitoba and the issue of Northern Flood Agreements. Mr. Newman: The status is that the Cross Lake band, through its leadership, has not yet come forward with a proposal pursuant to the consultation process they identified in their March 16 , 19 98, Jetter, but they have initiated or participated in a discussion as recently as yesterday through their vice-chief and councillors and several elders.

Involved in that discussion were the chairman ofthe board of Hydro, the president of Hydro and myself. *

(1050) May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 272 1 Mr. Latblin: Perhaps I do not really have too many questions on the Northern Flood issue, but I would just like to maybe ask the minister-! asked the question once in the House when I was querying him on, I believe negotiating in good faith was the subject. I had asked him a question something to the effect that if he was negotiating in good faith, how come, for example, the issue ofthe all -weather road, the bridge, had been appealed I think for the third time now. I know I asked this question of the previous Minister of Northern Affairs, Mr.

Praznik, in one of our meetings. As a matter of fact, I think my col league from Rupertsland was here at the time when, right in the middle of our discussions one of his senior staff came in with a piece of paper, gave it to the Minister of Northern Affairs, after which the minister happily made the announce ment that it appears now we are on our way to getting an agreement. What we will have to do now is ask our people to get their heads together and iron out an agreement, which I was led to believe, rather than having to resort to going back to the arbitrator or appealing the arbitrator's decision.

So we left it. I felt confident that the issue was going to be resolved for all-the minister at the time was quite jubila nt here when he made the announcement--only to find out later on that, instead of being negotiated, it had gone to the appeal stage again. So my question this morning would be, and I know he has answered this in the House once before, but it is a little different, I think, answering questions in the House, but today I would like to ask him: What is the real issue there in terms of not agreeing with the arbitrator and having to appeal it time and time again?

As I said to the previous minister, are we going to appeal this till the end of time, or is there ever going to be a point where a decision will be made as far as that bridge goes? Mr. Newman: I am glad that you have brought this into this forum because it allows the opportunity for more discussion than Question Period does in the Assembly because of the constraints of time there. Let me give a general answer first to say that I have told the leadership of Cross Lake that this is an issue that, under my leadership as minister, has not bee n, with my direction and my knowledge, addressed at the table.

I have invited this issue, if it is a priority issue, in spite of the court process, which is intended to clarify the quantum, the methodology for determining the quantum of compensation which is at hand-and that is the forum chosen by the parties to do that-but in spite of all ofthat, which can run its course and play its appropriate role, I have indicated to all of the people negotiating for the Province of Manitoba that I am prepared to have them discuss and try and come to a resolve on all of the issues relating to what I call the "all-w eather road issue." So, ifthe leadership of Cross Lake in their considered proposal, after consultation with the community, says that is something that they want to look at and that they do want a bridge, we wil l look at that.

I understand from my discussions with the community members who have spoken to me vol untarily, that they may or may not be where they want that kind of amount of resources directed, because my understanding is that a bridge would cost in the order of$10 million to $12 million. They may or may not want that to be the priority to which those kinds of resources are directed. The short answer is I welcom e that issue to be brought to the table and discussed when the community is ready to discuss it and have prioritized that and indicated that is what they want. Mr. Latblin: Mr.

Chair, perhaps I can ask the minister whether this issue of the bridge is still with the arbitrator. Where is it at now? I mean, if it is at the arbitrator's level and if he is willing to discuss that with the community, what impl ications will that have on any proposed discussions? Mr. Newman: The matter is currently before the Manitoba Court of Appeal. The principal grounds of appeal would be that the arbitrator failed to determine the extent to which one of the recommendations under the agreement constitutes compensation for adverse effects of the project. So it is before the Court of Appeal. Mr.

Latblin: Okay, it still has to do with Hydro, Mr. Chairman. I would like to now go over to Grand Rapids and ask the minister: how many Hydro employees are there in Grand Rapids approximately? I do not want the exact number. Mr. Newman: I am going to have some difficulty with this because I of course do not have Hydro people here.

2722 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 This is not part of my Northern Affairs budget or Estimates. Normally when I am questioned with respect to Manitoba Hydro and the employees in their budget, that is done under another standing committee, as you can appreciate. So I do not have that information readily available to me, and I would not want to guess at the numbers of employees of Manitoba Hydro there. Maybe as you proceed with questioning, that may or may not become relevant in terms of accuracy, but that is the best I can do. Mr. Latblin : Mr. Chair, I realize that the Hydro staff are not here.

The minis ter is still responsible for Manitoba Hydro. In that regard then I would maybe ask him to see if he would mind getting back to me with that piece of information. That information that I was asking for was the number of employees there are in Grand Rapids. Maybe while he is doing that, the minister could also categorize in terms of how many permanent employees and how many casual or rotating employees. So I will go on. *( 1 10 0) Mr. Newman: I will take that under advisement. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, in Grand Rapids, there is a place called the hybord. It is like a little Hydro town or a village.

I know, because I was there once on summer employment when I was a student. One of my jobs was to mow the lawn on those 24 houses that are in hybord. It was always a big job, because there were 24 houses. I lived in the staff house. There is a staff house there right close to the hybord, and that is where I lived when I was working for Hydro as a summer student. That is quite a while ago too. Since then, there has been another buildin g that has gone up at the hybord. I have seen it, and it is a pretty impressive building. When I first drove in there, at first I thought it was a big church.

I started asking around, you know, like what it was, and I was told that it was the staff house. Of course my first reaction was: staff house, why do these guys need a staff house here? There are 24 houses here already, and there is an apartment block right across the road from the hybord as well as four other individu al houses. So besides the 24 individual houses plus the four across the road from those 24, plus the apartment, we have quite a bit of housing there. So my question was why did Hydro build this additional staff house? Mr.

Newman: Once again, I do not consider this to be relevant to the discussions that are here, in a technical sense. This is not the proper forum to be dealing with matters which Hydro would normally be available to answer on their own behalf through me in the standing committee mandated to deal with that. I do not want to be technical, and I am prepared to hear these questions without making it a point of order, but I simply am not in a position to answer these questions.

If your purpose, by putting them on the record, is to raise them as matters which cause you and the aboriginal community concern, or even as a stakeholder as one of the consumers and owners of Manitoba Hydro, I can assure you I will be looking into any issues you raise in that respect, as I always do, and respond to you and at the same time formulate my own judgments as to the desirability or propriety or whatever might be an issue.

I will do so wearing my hat as the representative of the owners and consumers of Manitoba Hydro, namely, all the people of Manitoba and, in this case, apparently the people of the Grand Rapids area. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairman, I apologize to the minister for raising those issues. Perhaps I could raise them in Question Period or write him a letter, and hopefully he will give me the answers in that forum. Mr. Eric Robinson (Rupertsla nd): I do have a few questions of the minister. I appreciated his comments on some of the things that he outlined for us for the department that he is responsible for.

The communities that he was talking about, the eight communities that he was talking about, particularly interested me. I wonder if he could further describe exactly what these eight communities have embarked upon with respect to, as I believe the minis ter said, taking charge of their own communities. I wonder if he would describe as to how these communities, including Bis sett and I believe he said Waterhen and others, are going to proceed in achieving just that, taking charge of their own communities. Mr. Newman: I will try and be efficient in the way I respond to what is a very big question. As you know,

May 7, 19 98 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2723 there are presently 52 Northern Affairs communities with a population in total of about 8,000 people, and approximately 29 of those communities have populations that are 75 or over. Of those 52, 38 communities are in self -administering status; 14 communities are in trust status. Signifi cant gains have been made in terms of services and facilities in the Northern Affairs communities. We are talking about basic infrastructure facilities. A value of over $10 8 million has been invested to improve infrastructure and local facilities.

A yearly municipal grant of approximately $5 million has been provided towards the delivery of municipal services. The background, I think, is the other important part of the context before I get directly into your question. It was in 19 66 that the commission of The Northern Affairs Act was enacted by the Manitoba Legislature. The act provided the appointment of a commissioner who was given power simi lar to a municipality and the responsibil ity to co-ordinate activities to government in relation to northern Manitoba.

Part of that role involved the provision, maintenance and improvement of local services for the benefit of Northern Affairs communities. It was in 19 74 that a new act was passed, and the act charged the Minister of Northern Affairs with responsibilities previously held by the commissioner. The major purpose of the new act was to allow northern communities to become incorporated, self-governing local entities.

Although communities did not take advantage of incorporation in the past 23 years, they have, in some cases, proven a capacity and a desire to manifest their increasing independence by seeking to be incorporated, meaning that they would become an entity with obligations and responsibilities on behalf of the people of the community. *( 11 10 ) Now with that background and with three sorts of creative tensions-one, the motivation of some communities to become incorporated; secondly, an increasing capacity of communities to become more self-reliant through incorporation; and, thirdly, the phil osophy of our government to get better results in terms of healthy, sustainable, more self-reliant communities in the Northern Affairs area and, frankly, in all communities of Manitoba a renewed commitment was made to fill the deficiencies in the legislation of 19 7 4 and the policies that emerged out of that legislation since 19 7 4, to fill the deficiencies which precluded, which mitigated against the emergence of successful inc orporated communities.

So we opted, rather than having a top-down process, to have a community-driven process. We began by having consultation processes. These were done through the department, driven by members of the department developing an approach, after researching other communities and other jurisdictions and other government policies in other jurisdictions, and then taking that kind of background knowledge and research and going to the communities and consulting with them.

The communities, themselves, expressed the following kinds of priorities towards sustainability: one was concerns about funding for sustainability; another was about economic development; another about community planning; another about land base; another about long-term commitment; and another about funding arrangements being constant for a predictable period of time so that they would have the comfort, that they would have the support system necessary to move forward in a process towards increased self-reliance.

Most recently, we have put together a presentation, pursuant to these consultations, which was launched, given its inaugural showing at the Rural Forum-first of all in a preview way to the communities themselves, and then more broadly at the forum. I might say that I have instructed my staff-and I believe a meeting is being set up so that this same presentation can be delivered in a nonpartisan way to any interested members of the Legislature and their staff in the very near future.

My deputy minister assures me that that is being set up and it will be some time during this legislative session, and the sooner the better, so that you will get a full appreciation for the approach that has emerged from the process so far and, indeed, will have input into it because we do not purport it to be perf ect, and it can be refined and improved. The eight communities were selected by the department on the basis of criteria of readiness. Pursuant to that criteria of perceived readiness by the department, based on things like their capacity to

2724 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 19 98 administer the budgets within budget and appropriately and their demonstrable capacity to be most likely to be successf ul if they became incorporated, eight communities were selected, and they have been named. I might say that because of improvements in some of the other communities, I have been urging my staff to take a look at Sou th Indian Lake and Norway House Northern Affairs communities with a view to either adding them to the list or to the extent that some of the eig ht of those communities do not continue with the same motivation to move forward.

They would be replaced with those communities because those two communities have come forward like gangbusters recently in terms of trying to improve their administration and also showing their desire to move toward an incorporated status. Mr. Robinson: I forgot what I asked the minis ter. That was quite some time ago. The partnership agreements I am familiar with and also the Partners for Careers. As my colleague the member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin) indicated, we certainly do commend the efforts whenever it is warranted to the minis ter and the department that he is responsible for.

He also described the other initiatives that are occurring elsewhere in other parts in Manitoba. There is an initiative, and I do believe that the Native Affairs Secretariat, which the minis ter is also responsible for to a degree, is working with Nelson Sanderson and others in co-ordinating some workshops to deal with racial discrimi nation or racism, if I may term it that. I believe it is this Saturday in Brandon and on the following weekend, the 16 th, in Dauphin, and the weekend after that in Th

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	36-4-44a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	36th 4th hansardpdf 44a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	54a2252c8e2d68997a421df6d5a0f937fcdeb8c8

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