Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 37B (35th Legislature, 1st Session)

35-1-37b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

IG-8048 First Session ·Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Spealcer VOL. XXXIX No. 378 • 8 p.m., MONDAY, DECEM BER 3, 1990 Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Provlru:e of Manltob.a ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIV E ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Cons tituencies and Political Affil iation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAI RS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Gu lzar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward, Hon. CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Loui se DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, Ja mes, Hon. DRI EDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARM E, Gerry, Hon . EDWARDS, Pau l ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNS T, Jim , Hon. EVANS ,C iif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FIND LAY, Glen, Hon. FRI ESEN , Jean GAU DRY, Neil GIL LESHAM MER, Harold, Hon.

HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R. HIC KES, George LAMOUREUX, Kev in LA THLIN, Oscar LAU RENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANN ESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTI NDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda MITCHELS ON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald , Hon. PENNER, Jack, Hon. PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIM ER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon .

ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conr ad ST EFANSON , Eric STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA -L EIS, Ju dy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITU ENCY Os borne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heig hts Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste. Rose Seine River Roblin-R us sell Selkirk Conc ordia Arthur - Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lake side Charleswood ln terlake Brandon East Tu xedo Spr ing field Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupert sland Gimli Point Dou glas lnk ster The Pas St.

Norbert Elm wood Morris Bu rrows Stu rgeon Creek Brandon West Assin iboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mou ntain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendr ye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY. Liberal NDP NDP Liberal Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL V OF MANITOBA Monda y, December 3, 1990 The House met at 8 p.m. CONC URRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPL V SUPPL V· FAMIL V SERVIC ES Mr. Deputy Chairman (Marcel Lau rend eau) : Will the Committee of Supply please come to order? This evening this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 will resume consid eration of the Estimates of the Departmen t of Family Services. Whe n the com mittee last sat, it had be en conside ring item 4. Child and Family Services (

e) Family Dispu te Servic es: (1 ) Salaries $408,600, on page 62 of you r Estimates book. Shall the item pass? The Honou rable Minis ter, you have had some ques tions from the past meeting? Hon. Harold Gll leshammer (Minis ter of Fami ly Services) : Thank you , Mr. Deputy Chairman. I have a num ber of items of inform ation. The Member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) requested in formation on the province's share of funding for the Access Assistance pilot project.

I can advise the Member that un der the terms of the agreement between the federal Department of Jus tice and the Attorney Gener al of Man itoba for the period Febru ary 1, 19 89, to January 31 , 19 92, project costs are shared as follows : Federal Department of Jus tice $21 6,000, Man itoba Department of Jus tice $1 83,000, and the Man itoba Depar tment of Fam ily Ser vices $33 ,000.00. Seco ndly, the Member for Osborne (Mr.

Alcock) , asked that I provide him with an explana tion for the difference between the $250,000 for Child Abuse Initiatives report on page 73 of the Estimates Supplemen t, and the $1 35,000 shown in the grants listing. I wish to inform the Member that the $1 35,000 reported in the grants list represents the actual expenditures for 19 89-90 which was less than the $250,000 allocated to do the late start for these in itiatives. Thirdly, the Member for Osborne reques ted in formation on the 1 990- 91 funding incr eases for Ma Mawi Centre Inc orporated.

I can advise the Member that Ma Mawi received $1 38,000 incr ease in its su ppor t from this de partmen t. This in crease consisted of $48,800 for 3 percent incr eases to salaries and benefits , $67,1 00 for the fu ll- year cost of night sup port services, and $22,900 for third-year funding for Ma Ma wi pr oj ec t, a joint federal-pro vincial venture providing couns elling to Native victims of domestic abuse . Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne) : Do you want to take qu estions on those things as they come out, or do you want to get them all out first? Mr. Gll lesham mer: We can take a qu estion now if you have one. Mr.

Alco ck: Then am I to un derstand for Ma Mawi on this item, that there is no funding for the foster parent su pport workers or the other items that were referenced in the discussion last week? Mr. Gll lesham mer: Yes, that is correct. The fou rth item the Member for Osborne requested inform ation on changes was within the Operating Expenditu res allocation for Child and Family Support. Seve ral small oper ating expendi tur es, categorized Personnel Ser vices, Public Debt, Social Assistance , have been elimin ated this fiscal year, as they are no longer requ ired.

The allocation for Transportation has been increased due to additional northern travel cost for two seconded staff working for the Mani toba Metis Federation. The allocation for Commun ication has been incr eased to sup port a promotional campaign related to foster home and adoption recruitm ent. Most of the Other Operating allocation within Operating Expenditu res has been re-all ocated to cover incr eases for Transpor tation and Commu nication, as well as anticipated costs this year related to the Child and Family Ser vices In formation System.

Funds previously allocated un der Other Operating for software and data proces sing have been reallocated this year to Su pplies and Services for professional systems, development, consu lting contracts, and to Capital for the pur chase of hardware. *

(2005) Mr. Al cock : So then am I to un der stand that

241 9 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA December 3, 1990 $337,800 was en tirely for the software and data processing costs? Mr. Gll leshammer: Yes, I am told that a little over $200,000 was allocated. Mr. Alcoc k: And the remainder? Mr. Gll leshamm er: For other systems deve lopment within the branch. Mr. Alco ck: So then we have two lines for data processing : Su pplies and Ser vices and the Other Operating. Mr. Gll lesham mer : That is correct. The fina l item I have, the Member for Wellington (Ms.

Barrett) asked that I provide her with inf ormation and the numb er of available beds and the average occup ancy rate for each of the crisis shelters in Mani toba. I am pleased to provide the two Opposition Critics with a listing of crisis shelters showing the numb er of available beds and occupa ncy rates for the year '90-91 to date. Mr. Alco ck: I jus t want to remind the Min ister one more time. We asked him about the money spent to date on the Child and Family Ser vices In form ation System, and we keep being told that the in form ation is forthcoming and day after day we sit here without it. Mr.

Gll leshamm er: I have some further inf ormation on that. The Member for Osborne reques ted that I provide him with in formation on the cost to date for development of the Child and Fam ily Servic e Informa tion System. I can advise the Member that since the start of the deve lopment of the Child and Fa mily Ser vice In forma tion Sys tem in 19 84 , expendi tu res to date total $2,608,600, and that 50 percent of this amount has been recovered un der the Cana da Assistance Plan. A fu rther contribution of $1 02,000 has been provided by Health and Welf are Canada. Ms . Becky Barr ett (Welli ngton) : Mr.

De puty Chairman , I thank the Minis ter for his provision of the in forma tion req uested , in particular the occu panc y statistics for the crisis shelters. I wou ld like to ask some ques tions on that since that is the item we are curren tly on.

Basically, my un derstanding is that currently the shelters are operating on a funding fo rmula that is a combination of core funding and volum e-sens itive per diems that are paid for women and children who actu ally stay in the shelters, that those per diem rates have been subst antially incr eased over the past few years , which we are cogn izant of, and cer tainly are apprec iative of that additional recogni tion of the needs of these shelters.

I notice that on the occupancy rates, with the exception of Osborne House and lkwe, both of which are located in Winni peg, the other shelters in the province average any where from 62 percent to 15 percent occu panc y for three qu arters of this last year. Now, the Min ister has stated several times that in regard to shelters, as well as other parts of the Family Services network, such as Child and Family Services agen cies and others, fun ding and budgets have to be developed based on usi ng sound fiscal principles.

Given the fact that the current fu ndi ng for mul a relies most heavi ly on per diem rates, I am wonde ring if the Minis ter can explain how it is possible for these shelters to come up with balanced bu dgets when their occu pancy percentages vary so greatly while their operating costs will not vary to nearly that degree and are not necess arily in the same kind of context as the per diem rate? • (201 0) For example, Flin Flon has an average of 1 5 percent occu panc y rate

whereas Selkirk is 61 percen t and Thompson is 62 percent. Now, the reve nue that flows to Flin Flon shelter, given that occu panc y rate, is going to be far less than the revenue that flows to Thompson or Selk irk, but the operating costs are not going to be that mu ch different, certainly not going to be that great a percentage difference . So, I am won dering how the Minis ter puts those two things together and how he feels that shelters can come up with balanc ed bu dgets that are accu rate given the wide range in occu panc y rates? Mr.

Gll leshammer : Yes, I think it is incu mbent upon manag emen t to organize their staffing, and staffing is the major cost to reflect occu pancy. I think that probably they are going to need more experie nce to know whether 15 percent occupancy is going to accu rately reflect the situation that they live in from year to year or from month to month. If that is the level of service that is requir ed, then I think they are going to have to tailor their staffing accordingly. I have also in dicated that we are prepared to review the fun ding model at the end of the cu rrent fiscal year. Ms.

Barrett : I agree with the Min ister that clearly these occu pancy figur es are very in teresting,

December 3, 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASS EMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2420 particularly in the range of percentage that they reflect. I think it is going to defi n itely requir e some more time to see if these fi gures shake out, if they do actu ally maintain this kind of percentage . I have not had a chance to look at them qu arter by quar ter. This is actu ally my un derstandin g, only half of the year, so the fig ur es could be skewed .

So I would agree with the Min ister wholeheartedly that time needs to be given to these shelters to make an assessment over a period of months and maybe years to determine if these percentages hold up, if there is a pattern over the cour se of a particular calendar year, if there is a seaso nal diff eren ce , this kind of thing. * (201 5) In the meantime, it would appear to me that the cu rrent funding form ula does not reflect that need, and in fact, some of these shelters are severe ly in debt.

I am won dering if the Minis ter can tell us what the current operating deficit of some of the shelters is, or is there a range of qu arterly reports that he can share with us? Mr. GIIIeshammer: Well, there are two shelters that have come to our attention ove r the cou rse of the last year, the one we have discu ssed extensively, and we did provide some additional funding to enable it to reopen. There is one other that is on a service and fu nding agreemen t, and that one , too, had been resolved, the Thompson on e.

We are monitoring the other shelters on an ongoing basis to ensu re that they do not get in to serious financial difficu lties. There are some small operating de bts with a couple of them, but there is nothin g that approaches the type of situation we had with the Eastman shelter. Ms. Barrett : I would imagine that Flin Flon might be one of the shelters that would have, I would sugge st, probably a signi ficant deficit sinc e it is operating at 15 percent capacity. Is that one of the shelters that is running a defi cit? Mr.

Gl llehamm er: Yes, the Flin Flon shelter is one that has a small deficit at the end of the second qu arter. Ms. Barrett : Is the Family Dispute's staff in contact with that shelter and others to determine a service and fun ding agreemen t? Mr. Gl lle sham mer: Yes, we are working with all of the she lters and cer tainly with the one you refere nced . Ms. Barrett : Will the province be picking up any deficits that occur with these shelters prior to their service and funding agreeme nts being signed ? Mr.

Gll leshamm er: We are hoping that they do not have a def icit, and we are working with them to point them in that direction. Ms. Barrett : lt wou ld appear to me that, in the case of Flin Flon, if their occu panc y rates do not su bstantially incr ease over the third and fourth qu arters of the year, their debt will have to incr ease . Since 80 percent of shelter costs are staffi ng, will the province then be su ggesting or requirin g staff layoffs for this shelter? Mr. Gllle shammer: As we have in dicated, the primary cause for expenditures with shelter is staffing , and we are working with them.

In the case of Flin Flon, they do have a small deficit, but they, I believe , had a small surplus from the previous year that will partially offset that. Ms. Barrett : I gu ess my ques tion is back to the Minis ter's comment earlier that the shelters will need more experie nce to determine an accurate reflection of staffing levels.

I am wonde ring if the Minis ter is prepared to state at this time that, in the year of transition, he wou ld be willing to agree that the shelters shoul d not be responsible for the operating deficits that are based, according to most shelter dir ectors, on the in ade qua te funding form ul a cu rrently in place; and that he would be willing to work with the shelters at the very least, as they have with the Child and Family Ser vices agencies, and state: We will not require you to pay this debt; we will pay this if you sign a service agreement. *

(2020) Mr. Gll leshammer : What the Member is asking is that we give them a blank cheque, and we simply cannot do that. We will work with them for the remain der of the year to assist in any way we can . Hopef ully , they can operate in the latter quarter of the year in such a manner that there will not be deficits. Ms.

Barret t: If there are deficits , and if Family Disput e Services is working with the shelters and they are mana ging the fu nds that they have within the parameters that they have to operate, the Minis ter is saying that the province will not consider a deficit relief package the way they have with Child and Family Servic es agencies. Mr. Gll lesh ammer: What I have said is that we will work with them very diligently to assist them to work within their budgets. We have not put in place a

242 1 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA December 3, 1990 deficit relief package for them, and we would hope one wou ld not be necessary . Ms. Bar rett : One of the other components of the shelters and the wife and fam ily abuse program in the provinc e is the crisis lin es. I under stand that there are curr en tly two crisis lines in the province , one run by lkwe, and one by Osborne House . My un derstanding is that the Osborne House crisis line is the crisis line for non- Native crisis calls througho ut the province, and that the lkwe line is for aborigin al calls. Am I correct in that assum ption? Mr.

Gll leshamm er: You are not quit e correct on that. The Osborne crisis line is for all of the ur ban calls, and the lkwe line is the provincial toll-free line. Ms. Barrett : Thank you . I knew that there was an ur ban-rur al split there. I was jus t not accurate in my es timation. Could the Minis ter explain that distinction ? What was the rationale behind those crisis lin es being set up that way? Mr. Gll le shamm er: There is, first of all, the thinking thatthe one line would gene rate sign ificant busi ne ss ins ide the Perimeter Highway, and that the other could also serve greater Man itoba.

There was a long history of this where there was a group of service providers who recommended a provincial toll- free line. They recommended that line be at lkwe. Ms. Barr ett : Coul d the Min ister give a little backgrou nd in that group of service providers and the length of time that they were involved in this service provision ? Mr. Gll le shammer : There was a grou p called the Mani toba Committee on Wife Abus e that ran the crisis lin e and that group was dissolved. A grou p of Winnip eg service providers and a grou p of workers in ru ral shelters came together and made this recommendation .

This was the eventual resolution of the problem that lkwe would service the area outside of Winnipeg and that Osborne House would provide the ur ban service. Ms. Barrett : Is the Minis ter aware of any concerns that have been raised by particu larly rur al shelters and, I would imagin e, northern shelters about the way the crisis and information lin es have been established? Mr.

Gllle shammer: Yes, concerns have been raised by rur al service providers in that they all ru n their own lin es. lt is a part of service, I su ppose, that rural people sometimes have accepted that it is diffic�lt to have somebody in an ur ban centre fully cogniz ant of some of the local geography, which, in eff ect, creates a small problem, but yes, they have made that feeling known . *

(2025) Ms. Barrett : I am in terested in the Minis ter's commen t that ru ral people have accepted that there are some problems with ur ban people not always un derstanding the geography an d, I wou ld imagine, other elemen ts. Being an ur ban person myself, I can well imagine that being the case . Is the Min ister aware that my in formation is that Mani toba is the only province in Canada that has a provincial line?

Virtu ally every other provinc e in Cana da has regional lin es because of the acces sibility and the un derstanding of regional issues, and people appear to be more willin g to use those regional lines than they are to use a provincial line, particu larly one that goes in to Winnipeg. Mr. Gll leshammer: I can tell you that they all have their own numb ers as well, that people us e to access them. I am not sur e how fam iliar the Member is with the area of Man itoba outside of Winnip eg, but sometimes a shelter, fo r in stance, in Brand on, services the Westman area.

I mean, we are us ed to travelling large distances and having to go to ur ban centres occasionally for the things that are not available in all of the small communi ties. I think the Member kn ows that we are not going to have shelters in every village and town. I think the local committee, in many cases, acts as a referral by providing their numb er. I can tell you, in two of the weekly papers that service my constituency, the numb ers are pu blished. They can access service locally, and that local committee, in tu rn, will make the arrange men ts that are necessary. In

part it is, I think, the need to make use of the technology that we have. The information that can be provided by a provincial toll-free line ofte n can put people in touch with the local service providers. On top of that, we have had the provincial campaign "Abuse is a Crime," and there have been radio ads where they have made numb ers outside of the ur ban area known to other areas of the province.

One of the other things that I might men tion is that ofte n confid en tiality is an issue, where people in a small commun ity may be reluc tant to phone a numb er on their local exchange whereby they would perhaps be identified or talking to someone whom they are not prepared to share their problem with. The provincial lin e offers the type of confidentiality which allows, to some, the ability to discuss the

December 3, 1990 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2422 issue without having to ident ify themsel ves . Perhaps in the preliminary stages of being in volved with the crisis line, this woul d in fact be an advantage. Ms. Barrett : Mr. Depu ty Chair, yet again I wou ld like to go on record as saying that I do have some un derstanding of Man itoba outside the Perimeter, not as exten sive perhaps in the area of the province that the Mini ster comes from , but I do try to work on my Perimeter men tality. *

(2030) On the qu estion of telephones-and I brou ght up the provincial crisis line, because I know people have had concerns with it. I wanted to reiterate those con cerns, share them with the Minis ter and put on record that there are some concerns with it. On the telephones, this in rural and northern shelters, or my un derstanding another conce rn , financial concer n more than any thing else, that the telephone costs are qu ite a su bstantial part of the operating costs of the agencies because they are, in many cases, long distance calls that need to be made.

We have not yet fi gu red out how to have the dialing areas be really reflective of what people actu ally use. So the telephone bills are qu ite an extensive part of the shelters' budgets, and I am wondering if the service and funding agreeme nts are going to take cog niz ance of that. My un de rstanding is that a part the problem with Eastman was that the telephone bills were quit e extensive, and I am sure that is the case with other rural and northern shelters, as well. Mr. Gll lesham mer: Part of the cost of living in rural Man itoba, of cou rse, is higher telephone costs.

I am aware that the Memb er has travelled out to western Manitoba and has done some excellent work out there, althou gh the job is not fini shed. Certainly the costs of businesses, the cost for residences, the cost for many things in rural Mani toba, in terms of long distance charges, is higher. A shelter woul d not be surpris ed by that, that they are well aware of the cost of accessing ne arby communi ties, just as they have to take that into consider ation as one of their operating costs. When we work with a shelter, we obviously recogni ze that is a reality of living in rural Manitoba. Ms .

Barrett : I notice on the grants to External Agencies that most of the, well, a good portion of the shelters, particula rly the shelters that are not in Winnip eg , have very similar grants. Their core grants are reasonably the same. I am won dering if the Min ister can tell me, for example, which of these shelters outside the City of Winnipeg pay rent, and which do not?

The issue I am getting at here is there is reasona bly the same amount of grants, within $1 0,000 of each other, and I am wonde ring if that accurately reflects the operating costs for each of these shelters which I would assu me sometimes they get their building rent fr ee, others would pay some rent costs. I wou ld expect utilities to be different and that kind of thing. I am conce rned that these might not reflect the actu al differences in costs among the different shelters, and since the per diem rate is so fle xible, this takes on more import. Mr.

Gl lle shamm er: Yes, I can in dicate that the fo llowing pay rent: the Portage Women's Shelter; the Sel kirk Co-ope rative on Abus e Against Women; Southcen tral Committee on Family Violence Inc. ; the Eastman Crisis Centre In c. and the Thompson Crisis Ce ntre , and that they do pay diff ering amou nts for rent. Ms.

Barrett : I will not go in to it in any more depth, other than to put on the record that I think, given the cu rrent fu ndi ng form ula, which places such a reliance on volum e- sensi tive per diems, that I would ur ge the Government look at making more indi vidual the grant fu ndings to these shelters to more accu rately reflect dif fe rences in fixed operating costs. Mr.

Gll lesha mmer: Well, as I have indi cated to the Member before , you know there are those in the shelter system who think we have the ideal form ula with a fixed core amount and the volume -se ns itive portion of that that accur ately reflects the nu mber of people coming into care. I think the important thing is that boards, as we talked earlier, analy ze the level of service that they are providing. We will gain more experience in coming years to see what use is being made of those shelters.

Given that the major expense is that of salaries, I think the board has to make very important decisions about the level of staffi ng that they have. I recall telling the Member one other time about a particular shelter that, if they could operate two years ago on a certain level of incom e, why do they run in to such tremendous difficult y when their fu nds have been in creased by 15 0 percent? The obvious

2423 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA December 3, 1990 answer is some manage men t decisions that were made . I think that they have to, and all boards have to, look very carefu lly at the level of service they are providing and make those appropriate mana gemen t decisions.

This perhaps gets us into that area of board development as well, that the boards have the capacity to read their fi nanci al statemen ts and see that the in formation brought forward is accu rate and make decisions based on what they know their known in come is going to be and the percentage occu pancy, as the Member has pointed out, which does vary considera bly. Obviously, it is easier to make those decisions where your occu panc y is generally pretty high, but boards canno t put in to place extensive service wher e that ser vice is not re quir ed because occu panc y is low.

So those are difficult decisions that boards and mana gemen t have to make . We are prepared , through this particular branch, to work with those boards and to work with mana gemen t. Hopefu lly, the service will reflect the dema nd that is out there. I su ppose the scenario which would be most diff icul t is if the occu panc y rate jump ed all over the place and you had a difficult time enga gin g the leve l of service that is requir ed, but time will be of great assistance in remedying that. *

(2040) Ms. Barrett : I have a cou ple of commen ts. One, I agree with the Minis ter that boards, mana gemen t and all of us who are invol ved in allocating or recommending allocations and then spending those allocations mu st be good stewards of our resou rces. There is no qu estion from our side on that. We agree on that particular requir emen t. Where we disagree is if one can be good stewards of the reso ur ces, if the resou rces are ver y inadequa te. We have had this disagreemen t bef ore, so I will not go in to it any fu rther because I think we will agree to disagree .

Jus t one other commen t to the Minis ter: I am sur e there is at least one shelter that does not have a whole lot of problem with the cu rrent fu n din g form ula, and that is Osborne House , which is at 115 percent occupancy rate. I think these statistics actually make my point very well that this funding fo rmula is more acceptable and more reflective of what actually happens in an ur ban shelter like Osborne House or lkwe . Both of whom have su bstantially higher occu panc y rates than do any of the other shelters which are in the ru ral and northern areas of the provinc e.

I am fi ndi ng myself being an advocate for a more realistic fu nding form ula for those ur ban and nor thern shelters that do have dif ferences in occu pancy rates, do have different costs, and do have different requ iremen ts. I think that this funding for mula that works for one kind of organization clearly is not working for the other organ ization, which is the one that is outside the Perimeter. I would sugges t to the Mini ster that there needs to be some serious look at the fu nding form ula as it is applied to agencie s and shelters that are outside of the Perimeter. Mr.

Gll leshammer : We certainly take the Member's advice as advice , and we have indicated that we would be looking at the fu nding form ula. I wonder how the Member would characterize the service which she characte rizes as being gr ossly ina dequa te now-how she would characterize that service two years ago when it had su bstantially less funding. Obviously, whatever adjectives or adverbs that she would choose would be certainly not only interesting, but wou ld, hopefu lly, reflect the fact that funding was very seriously ina ppropriate at that time.

We feel , with a 47 percent incr ease in the funding over two years, we have made great strides towards adding stability to the shelter system. If there are ways to improve it, that would be a natural direction for us to go. l have also in dicated that there are times perhaps when some of the shelters that are full are using hotel rooms, that perhaps they could share those clients, or have those clients placed in a near by shelter. While the cost would be the same to Gove rn men t, it would assist by giving per diems to shelters that perhaps have vacancies at that time.

There are ways to improve it, as it has been improved over the last two years. We will be looking at that as time passes. Ms. Barrett : Are there any standards upon which these grants are based? Are there any criteria that the Gove rnm ent looks at to say, okay, lkwe gets $96,000, Parkland gets $77 ,000, and Eastman gets $84,000.00? Are there standards, or has it been an incr emen tal change over time? Mr. Gl llesham mer: The grants are based on size. They are categorized as small, medium or large. We

December 3, 1990 LEG ISLATIV E ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2424 are working with the shelters to perhaps fine- tu ne that to take in to consider ation other factors. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Deput y Chair, I appreciate that and would only commend that working with agencies to be more flexi ble, as well. Are the Family Dispute Services staff using the policy statemen t by the Women' s Emergenc y Shelters, that was revised in July 19 90, as the basis of their discussions with the shelters? Mr. Gllle shammer: Yes, that is one of the docu men ts that is being us ed . Ms.

Barrett : Well, my sense of that documen t is that it covers the major areas very thoroughly and has some excellen t sug gestions in it. I have a specific ques tion about one of the wife abuse com mittees, that being the Swan River Wife Abus e Centre. On September 3, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) wrote to Ms.

Betty Bu rke of the Swan River Wife Abuse Committee stating that: The Filmon Governmen t plans to provide the Swan River Wife Abus e Committee with fu ndi ng for an outreach co-ordinator to su pport its second-stage housing in itiative-and then fu rther on-in recognition of the important role the second-stage housing projects play helping abus ed women reintegrate into the commu nity, we plan to provide $25,000 to each of the six ru ral second-stage housing projects cu rrently operating without Governmen t support.

Portage la Prairie, Sel kirk, Winkle r, Steinb ach and Brandon , in addition to Swan River, wou ld be able to hire an outreach co-ordinator to provide transition coun selling and su pport to abused women and their fam ilies. I am wondering if the Min ister can state that has actu ally taken place? Mr. Gll lesha mmer: The in itiative that you read there is in the process of being operationalized. Ms. Barrett : Is there an estimated time of deliver y for this $25,000 to the Swan River Centre? *

(2050) Mr. Gll lesham mer : Yes, I wou ld hope, in the nottoo distant futu re, that we could make that become a reality. Ms. Barrett : Are we talking jus t the Swan River Wife Abus e Centre, or the other five as well? Secon dly, could the Minis ter be a little more specific than "no t too distant future ?n Is that this cu rrent fiscal year? Mr. Gll le shamm er: Yes, we are looking at making this a reality within this fiscal year. Ms. Barr ett: Is that reflec ted any where in the Estimates? Mr. Gll lesham mer : Yes, it is in this appropriation. Ms.

Barrett : Coul d the Min ister show us which line that is reflected in, please ? Mr. Gll leshamm er: Yes, it wou ld be covered under the line grants to External Agencies. Ms. Barrett : When I look at the grants to External Agencies listing that was provided by the Mini ster, I notice thatthe Swan River Committee on the Abuse of Women In c. has the same amoun t for this year as it did last year. Mr. Gll lesham mer : I can assur e the Member that it has not been finali zed by Government as yet but that it will be final ized to cover the last qu arter of the year. Ms.

Barrett : I am sur e that they will be extremely pleased to have that informat ion . Can the Mini ster explain a cou ple of other items on the grants to External Agencies? The Second Stage Outreach has $35,000 this year as op posed to nothing last year, and Unall ocated goes from a little over $1 ,000 to $74,500.00. Coul d the Min ister explain those two fi gures, please? Mr. Gll leshamm er: Mr.

Deputy Chairman, the $35,000 that the Member referenced first under Second Stage Outreach will be the amoun t of money going to the six ins titutions that you asked about jus t a few minu tes ago and the Unall ocated is money that is within that line of the budget that has not yet been allocated. Ms. Bar rett : A definition of circular here. That $7 4,500 Unall ocated is interesting because in other areas of the whole de partmen tal and more particu larly the Governmental budget, what appears to have been the habit in the past is jus t to not spend it rather than to state un allocated.

Could I ask why that pot of money was left there rather than bein g put into any one of a num ber of places that I am sure, I, or anyone else cou ld probably give some really good direction on and would be delighted to? Mr. Gll lesham mer : We have a tremendous amoun t of respect for the Member's direction, but it is money that there possibly will be some call on in terms of some overexpenditu res in the shelter system.

2425 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA December 3, 1990 Ms. Barrett : So that money at this point is tied more or less to the shelter program rather than any other of the agencies that are un der Family Dispute Services at that time? Mr •. Gilles hammer: lt is tied to all of the agencies that might come under this particular branch of Family Dispu te Services. (Mrs. Linda Mcln tosh, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Ms . Barrett: Madam Acting Chair, is this a recogni tion that in this year of transition stabilization may need a little assistance? Mr.

Gll lesham mer : Well, it is some fundi ng that is available for shelters, or other agencies, who may be in a position where they have spent over and above their incom e. Ms. Barrett : I look forward to nex t year's Estimates to see how that money was actu ally allocated. Coul d the Mini ster explain what fee waive r grants are? Mr. Gll lesham mer : There are some that come into the shelter system that are on social allowances, and they do not pay the per diem. We have others who access the shelter system who are capable of paying the per diem .

Then we have those who access the shelter system who are not on social allowance but perhaps canno t pay the per diem and that fe e is waived . As a resu lt, you have a fee waiver grant. * (210 0) Ms. Barrett : So this $120,000 fee waiver gran t is an estimation of the amoun t of money that the province will pay to the shelter on behalf of those women and their children who are in that third category you jus t men tioned? Mr. Gll lesham mer : You are correct. Ms. Barrett : Can the Mini ster explain why the fi gur e is dou bling year over year? Mr.

Glll eshammer: Wel l, the numb er there, hopefu lly, reflects reality, and with an incr ease in the use of the shelters it is anticipated that is the amoun t of a fee waiver grant that will be paid out by people who use the shelter and are not on social allowance , but are un able to pay that per diem. Ms. Barrett : I have a couple of qu estions about these actu al fi gur es that are in the Estimates as they relate to the figu res that are in the draft '89-90 report that we were give n. There are some discrepancies, and I am wonde ring if the Mini ster can clarify it. I will see here if I can clarify it.

In the draft '89-90 an nual report un der Wife Abuse , Women' s Advocacy Program, Women' s Resource Centres, the Other Expen ditu res actual totals $268,800.00. I think, if I am reading this correctly, that figur e is very different from the one that is in the Estimates book of the actual vote, but maybe I jus t do not know how to put the two sets of figures together. Mr. Gll leshamm er: I wonder if the Member could jus t clarify that qu estion for us. Ms. Barrett : Yes, I am looking for what appears to be a difference in the actual '89-90 fig ur e un der Other Expendi tures.

In the draft annual report, it is $286,800, and in the Estimates book on page 79, that figu re is $313 ,200. 00. Mr. GIIIeshamm er: I think the difference is between the estimate and the actu al expenditures, and I think the Member has answered her own que stion. Ms. Barrett : I appreciate that clarification. Then, given that, cou ld the Mini ster explain why in the actual '89-90 , the External Agencies bud get su pport was $2 ,6 43 ,900 and in the Estim ates Supplem en tary it is $2,71 1 ,200, a decrease of $67,300.00? Mr. Gl ll esham mer: lt is actu ally the same reason.

One is the actual fig ur e and one is the adjusted. Ms. Barrett : Thank you . Yes, I knew that. That is not what the qu estion was. The qu estion I should have asked is: Why is there a $67 ,000 un derexpenditure of this item? Mr. Gll leshammer : That, as the Member would recognize , is a very small part of this budget. lt coul d be some costs that came in less than anticipated or it could be some of what we talked about as unall ocated bef ore , not having been spent. Ms. Barrett : I would imagine a good portion, if not all of it, was un allocated, i. e., had not been spent.

I am wond ering, if given the fact that it could very easily have been util ized in any one of a numb er of areas, why it was not spent? Mr. Gll lesham mer: Yes, I was indic ating that a portion of it could have been in that line which was called un allocated and, as such, would not have been spent, but it may be made up of a nu mber of un derexpenditures in a numb er of areas. We would have to go back and look at a numb er of lines to actu ally give you the detail on that figu re. Ms. Barrett : No, I certainly am not asking for that, because I realize that as a percentage of the total

December 3, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2426 expendi tur es to External Agencies it is not a very large percentage. However, if you look at it in terms of one or two shelters, or one or two staff people, or one or two programs, it cou ld be a signi ficant factor, and I am ju st wanting to bring that to the attention. I have one other qu estion that deals with women' s resou rce centres, two ques tions actu ally.

Fort Garry and North End Women' s Resou rce Centre received the same percentage inc rease from last year, from '89-90 to '90-91 , while the Northern Women's Resour ce Ser vice receives an additional $6,000, althou gh they all three receiv ed the same amoun t of money in '89-90 . I am wonde ring what the reason for the Northern Women's Resou rce Service-is there ano ther program bein g fu nded or? Mr. Gll leshamm er: There is an additional 5 percent enc ompassed in that numb er known as northern allowance . Ms.

Barrett : Madam Acting Chair, finally, coul d the Minis ter tell me if those grants to the women' s resou rce centres, are they global or they tied? Is there any requir emen t that these centres mu st meet in order to access these fu nds, and if so what are they? Mr. Gll lesham mer : They are known as gene ral pu rpose grants. Ms. Bar rett : Madam Acting Chair, what is the reporting mechanis m for those? Are they qu arterly as the as the shelters and other projects un der this category are? Mr. Glll eshammer : I am told that they report qu arterly. Ms.

Barrett : I have lots more to say in this area, but I will not. I will pass on to the Member for Osborne. Mr. Alco ck: Madam Acting Chairperson, let me jus t start with something that is a relatively small item and seems somewhat un related to the rest of this appropriation, and that is the grant to the Elder Abus e Resou rce Centre. Does that come throu gh this division? Mr. Gll lesham mer : Yes, it will be provided throu gh this branch. Mr. Alco ck: Is this reflect a policy decision of the Gover nmen t that support services for the abus ed el derly will now be the respon sibility of this department? Mr.

Gll leshamm er: We are responsi ble for this one grant. Mr. Alco ck: Can the Mini ster tell us who the grant is to and what it is in su pport of? Mr. Gll lesha mmer : lt is to the Age and Opportunity Centre. Mr. Alco ck: For what pu rpose? • (21 1 0) Mr. Gll leshammer: lt is to be us ed to assist abus ed elderly persons. Mr. Alcoc k: Cou ld the Min ister expand on that commen t a little bit-as sistthem in what way? What specific ally is the grant to fund? (Mr. Deput y Chairman in the Chair) Mr.

Gll leshamm er: This money is us ed for an assessmen t worker at the Age and Opportunit y Centre , and this person wou ld be respon sible for intake, assessment and referral . Mr. Alco ck: Given the size of the grant, am I to presume that this is a part-year cost, that this program is jus t being initiated and nex t year we may see a ful l-year cost reflected in this category? Mr. Gll lesham mer : There is a misprint on here. The figur e shoul d have been $45,000, and the fu ll-ye ar cost is $60,000.00. Mr. Alco ck: I recogniz e this is a new service that is being started.

In many ways I was thinkin g, as I was listening to the qu estioning, that this whole area, this whole division in the department is relatively new and we see a system in the process of development, but as we are beginning to move in to this area of providing some outreach and assessment referral su pport for abus ed sen iors, is it the intention of the department to see that these services are generally available throug hout the province ? Mr. Gll le shamm er : Yes, I would in dicate that it is prematur e to say that.

The area of elder abuse is something that will be studied by a numb er of departments before we can make that conclusion . Mr. Alcoc k: Well then, is this a research grant or is this to actu ally provide services? Mr. Gll le shammer: This is the very beginning stage of some actual service provisos. We are very early on into this in itiative, and it would be premature to say that this was somethin g that is going to lead to rapid expansi on. lt is sort of in the nature of a pilot project. Mr. Alco ck: So we have begun a pilot project throu gh A and 0.

That would seem to be an appropriate home for suc h a service that is to deliver

2427 LEG ISl ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 3, 199C some assessment intake and referral services to seni ors in what catchment area? Mr. Gllle shammer: This very early prelimin ary project is city-based at the momen t. Mr.

Alco ck: Now, the decision to fund this throu gh this particu lar department, is that simply because it was a conv enient vehicle while they are sorting things out, or is there an intention that the organiz ation will beg in to report through this department that there is some sort of relationship developin g now between this organ ization and , for example, the Agency Relations Bu reau , which is responsible for the fu nding of external agencies? Mr. Gll leshammer : I think it would be fai r to say, it was put here for practical reasons. Mr.

Alcock: I am in terested though that it was put there, because there are a numb er of choices that could have been made as one looks at the services deliver ed by various departments. In particular, we do have a Senio rs Direc torate. What is the relationship between this de partment and this service , which is being fu nded throu gh this department and the Seniors Directorate? Mr. Gll leshamm er: As I indic ated a moment ago, it was put here for some practical reasons in that there is some expertise in the area of abuse . We will be certainly discussing and evalua ting this along with the Seni ors Directorate.

Again, I wou ld emphasize it was sort of a demonstration project that is new this year, and it is going to take some evalua tion before any ongoing plans can be form ula ted. Mr. Al cock : Ye s, now I rec ogniz e the early dem ons trations, sort of implemen tation kind of un derstanding early-phase nature of this grant.

I am interested that we have a Sen iors Directorate that was established by this Governmen t some time ago, has a separate line in the bud get and does receive some funding, and why the decision was made to fund this particular service through this particular division as opposed to through that bur eau . Mr. Gll lesham mer : As I in dicated, it was placed here for practical reasons in that there was some expertise in the area of abuse in this particu lar area of the department. Mr.

Alcock : Then as the other services in here, the shelt ers and the crisis lin es, have some accountability relationship to the department for the funds that they get, does the elder abuse also, the Age and Opportuni ty and this particu lar resour ce centre also accoun t through the Family Dispute Services? Mr. Gll lesham mer : Yes, it is fu nded by this branch and is accountabl e to it. Again I would emphasize with the Member that there is going to be dialogue with the other depar tmen ts that are rele vant, including the Seni ors Directorate. Mr.

Alcock : If it is the in tention to have that dialogu e, what dialogue led up to the creation of this $60,000 grant, 45 this year, and I presum e the $60,000 commitment next year sinc e the Mini ster seems to be aware of the fu ll year cost? Mr. Gll leshammer : This is I think an emerging problem in society that we are all becoming more aware of. In terms of placing the fun ds somewhere, it was placed here in that this particula r branch deals with abuse . Again, it is going to be reviewed. * (212 0) Mr. Alcock : Presuma bly this idea came from some place .

Pres um ably some body either fl oated a discussion paper or came forward to the department with a reques t, or the department approached Age and Opportun ity with some sort of reques t for the development of a service . I believe it was in response to a qu estion to the Minis ter responsible for Seniors (Mr. Downey) some two or three weeks ago that he in dicated that this was an area that was still bein g studied, they had not made any decisions on, and they were going to move in to a second phase of consu ltation.

We have that statement from the Minis ter of Senio rs and then we have the provision of the $60,000 annual grant through this department. I am jus t in terested in the genesis of this particular grant. Mr. Gll lesham mer : As I have indi cated, this is an emergin g problem in society that we are becoming more and more aware of. There was some discus sion between the Age and Opportu nity Centre and the Sen iors Directorate. This is an idea that came forward and was placed within this appropriation. lt will be un der review. If it is more appropriately placed somewhere else, that may in fact fo llow.

We will be discussing this with the other departments involved . Mr. Alcock : I am not offe ring any opinion on the appropriateness of the location of this grant here. I am ju st in terested in the se emin g diffe rence between the statemen ts of the Min ister of Seni ors and the actions of this particu lar department.

December 3, 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2428 Can the Min ister tell us where--1 mean I am not su re if I unde rstood that last commen t of his. Is he saying that the Sen iors Directorate gene rated this concept and then came to this department and asked them to approach A and 0? Did A and 0 go to the Seni ors Di recto rate, and they then approached Family Se rvices and asked them to admin ister it? Where did this arise fr om? Mr. Gll lesham mer: I think it is maybe fa ir to say that the Sen iors Directorate as suc h does not provide service of this sort.

There are items that come forward from other departments that are brought to our attention where we are service providers. I am sur e these qu estions wou ld have been raised by you r colleagues in discussing the Estimates of the Seniors Directorate. In fact, I sat in on part of that one njght, and I think some of this was covered at that time. lt was an identified problem. We are a service delivery department, and as such it was placed in this appropriation. Mr.

Alcock : Yes, I also sat in on those Estimates for some time, and I agree that the Minis ter for Seni ors has ide ntified that ser vice as be ing something other than service de livery. I gues s the qu estion is : Did the Senior s Directorate gene rate the idea and approach the department, or did it come from A and 0? Mr .GIIIesham mer: I am sorry, I missed the last part of that. Mr. Alco ck: The program proposal that led to the $60,000 grant, did it come from the Senio rs Directorate who then approached A and 0, or did A and 0 come forward and reques t the grant provide this service? Mr.

Gll lesham mer : Age and Opportun ity people expressed an in terest in that, so in esse nc e it came from the communi ty. Mr. Alcock : I wonder if the Min ister would be in a position to table some in form ation around the se rvices tha t are being provide d, how people access them, and what they can expect to receive by way of service . Mr. Gll lesham mer : We will en deavour to provide the Member with some in fo rmation in a written form . Mr. Alcock: Thank you very much. I will jus t talk a little bit about Family Disput e Services.

I note in the draft annual report-actu ally I note in the Expec ted Resu lts of the Supplem ent ary Estimates, it indic ates that this division or this

section provides services to over 4,000 abus ed women. In the draft annua l report it refere nces about 1 ,900 women that are served in wife abuse shelters. One presu mes the rest are serviced how? How were those cou nts arrived at? Mr. Gll leshammer : The 1 ,900 are part of residential services. The larger numb er, the 4,000, are others that are provided with cou ns elli ng an d other services that are provided by some of the workers in this area. (Mrs. Linda Mcln tosh, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Mr. Alcock: This is a system in transition.

I mean it is not that many years ago when we had no shelters or very limited shelter services un til the YWCA began to get active in this field. We now have a mu ch more comprehensive service. The Minis ter has referenced with some pride the amount of su pport that his Gove rn men t has provided, and I think they ough t to be commen ded for substanti ally in creasing the support. As I un derstood the earlier discussions, there was a desire to move to the deve lopmen t of service and funding agreemen ts with these shelters.

I believe the Minis ter referenced the Steinb ach shelter as one that had agreed to do this. Is it the intention of the department to get agreeme nts in place with all of these shelters? Mr. Gll lesham mer: Yes, we have two service and funding agreeme nts in place now, Thompson and the Eastman shelter. Yes, it is our perception that that is a desirable way to go with the service prov ider s and the fu nding that is given by Gove rnmen t. Mr.

Alco ck: If I am correct in recallin g the earlier stateme nts of the Min iste r, there ar e two componen ts to the funding for these agen cies, much like there is with the Children' s Home service and funding agreement? One is the provision of a grant to cover basic operating and then a fee to cover costs of people who access the shelters? Mr. Gll lesham mer : Yes, there is some core fu nding and per diem funding. Mr. Alco ck: Is there an expected or anticipated occu panc y rate incl uded in the decision on which the fee is based? * (213 0) Mr.

Glll esh ammer: In the Memb er 's opening commen ts, he referenced that our system is new ,

2429 LEG ISLA TIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 3, 1990 and we need to gain more experienc e. His colleague from the official Opposition read in to the record some of the occu pancy num bers with some of the shelters. As we gain more experien ce, we will be able to better un derstand the adequ acy of the core funding and the per diems as it relates to shelters of small, medium and large size. We have ind icated that we are prepared to review the fun ding model.

The funding model now, in our estimation, goes a long way to providing qu ite adequate funding for the shelters. lt is described by some as the best fu nding model in the country. While that perhaps has not received unanimo us agreemen t, I think we have come a long way in terms of the funding model. Mr. Alcock: I am jus t more interested though in the basis on which some of these fe es have been arrived at. I know in some of the children's fa cilities they established an occu panc y rate that was considered basically to be 1 00 percent occu pancy.

Because of turno ver-you have people moving in and out --it is not possible and necessary to keep the space filled 10 0 percent of the time. At one time, the rate in children' s services was 87.5 percent. At one point, it moved up to 95 percent. I am wondering what the rate is in shelters. Mr. Glll eshammer: The funding amou nts were established by the Women's Initiative that travelled the province I believe in 19 89. They did so in discussion with the shelters and the people who were in volved with providing the service in the various communi ties. Mr.

Alcock: The Mini ster is tellin g us that consult ations took place in establishing the rates. Is ther e an occu pancy consi de ration in the establishment of the rate? Mr. Gll leshamm er: Not in the same manner that you referenced with some of the agencies that have existed for a long time. There was some historical refe rence points in regard to these shelters and, of cou rse, the discussions that took place between the Women's In itiative, the shelter operators and the service providers. Mr. Alc ock: Are ne gotiations un der way with all of the shelters right now to sign these agreemen ts? Mr.

Gll leshamm er: That process is jus t beginning. Mr. Alcock: I wonder if the Min ister is in a position where he coul d table one of the agree men ts with one of the shelters, if he would seek the approval of a shelter to do that and see that it is brought forward to us. Mr. GIIIesha mmer : As we did with the tabling of the other service and fu nding agreemen t, we would have to seek the permission of the participants in it before we could table it.

In addition, I would point out that the agree men ts that were signed with the two shelters that were in crisis were agreeme nts that enable d them to man age the circums tances for the remain der of the fiscal year. They are not the fu ll- fledge d service and fu nding agreemen ts that we would like to see for a fu ll year. Mr. Alcock: The process that the Minis ter has indica ted is jus t about to begin will involve all of the shelters then, and any agreemen t that may exist cu rrently would no t be reflective of the overall agreemen t? Mr.

Gll leshammer: Yes, again I would emphasize that those two agreemen ts were agreem ents to have those shelters remain open and reflect the cu rrent realities. I think the service and funding agreeme nts that we are jus t beginning with all of the shelters will be more exten sive . Mr. AI cock: Would it be fai r to characterize this then as an attempt to stabilize the cu rrent system of shelters and see that they are maintained year over year? Mr. Gll leshammer : Yes, I think the new funding that we have put in place was an attempt to stabilize those shelters.

There is recognition that more work has to be done to put in place service and funding agreemen ts for all of the shelters. There are now 11 throughout the provi nce, and we have other com muni ties providing other services that are interested in securing a stable futu re for themselves as well. Mr. Alco ck: No w, I am in tere sted in their relationsh ip. The Minis ter has spoken you know in refe renc e to the Elder Abus e Program that is beginning about the re lationship with other de partments.

What is the service relationship here with the Department of Health or the Family Su pport Services cu rrently delivered by the Departmen t and the vari ous regions? Is there any relationship between fam ily workers and the shelters, and the crisis lin es and the committees? Mr. Gllle shammer : The in terdepartme ntal relationship that you are asking about between, say, the Departmen t of Health is with staff for Fam ily

December 3, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2430 Disput e Services from within this department as opposed to a relationship with the shelters. Mr. Alco ck: So the relationship between shelters and committees would be to this office within this de partment essent ially. I notice in the earlier discussion there are a numb er of Family Services workers employed in each one of the regions. They do not have an involv emen t with the shelters? Mr. Gll lesham mer: Madam Acting Chairperson, at this point in time the relationship of the shelters is with the staff of Family Dispute Services for the most part. Mr.

Alco ck: Earlier on in this division , we were talking about the organ ization of the department and the relationship betwee n In come Securi ty and Family Services , and now we have the shelters. Is there some poin t at which service between these various grou ps, all of which have a role to play in Family Services , is co-ord ina ted, or do they operate in separate streams with In come Secu rity having one relationship with the she lters and Family Servi ces having a second and this division having a third? Mr.

Gll leshammer : The reference that I made to Income Secu rity was in respect to clients who accessed In come Secu rity and as such were not requi red to pay the per diems. So the common factor I su ppose is clients of In come Secu rity who do access ser vices that cut across within this de par tme nt, but also other depar tmen ts of Gove rnment. * (21 40) Mr. Alcock : Yes, but within the pu rview of this Minister there is In come Se cur ity, which does play a role. There is a Family Services delivery division in every region of the province, and there are now shelters in the committees.

Ali i am asking is: How are they co-or dina ted, or are they? Mr. Gllle shammer: Well , the funding is co-ordinated in that in come secu rity pays the per diem to this de partment, but the relationship between the client and this de partmen t is throu gh Family Dispute Se rvices workers. Mr. Alcoc k: On the fund ing , is the funding relationship with these agreemen ts through agency relations? Mr. Gll leshammer : Yes, it will be a combina tion. Agenc y relations will assist, but the Family Disput e branch is the one that works directly with the shelters. Mr.

Alcock: Now, the Honou rable Mem ber for We lling ton (Ms. Bar rett) and the Min ister had considerable discussion on the issue of deficits. The Agenc y Relations division was set up in response to a study that sugges ted a non-fu nding of deficits policy. I am wonde ring if that-the Minister went several ways in answe ring that, but ind icated that there were unall ocated funds that we re, as I un derstood it, presum ably to deal with un anticipated deficits while you are moving toward a more stable system. Is that a correct statement. Mr.

Gll lesham mer: lt is the lin e of the budget that has unall ocated fu nds available for that particular need. Mr. Alco ck: So is it fa ir to characterize that, that in this transitional period, while you are moving to better stabilize the fu nding for these shelters, the defi cit pickup will ease the policy? Mr. Gll leshamm er: The deficits are something that we are not encoura ging , and we are working very closely on a quarterly basis with those shelters to have them manage their resour ces.

The shelters cu rrently existing, while a couple of them are in a defi cit position, it is not of such a nature that we are going to see a shelter close because of the massive deficit, but it is our hope that with assistance from this branch we will be able to see ou r way through this year without any massive deficits. Mr. Alco ck: This little stu b fun d here of $74,500 was placed in this budge t as unal located fun ds to deal with deficit problems that may occur while you are transitioning from a haphazardly funded system to one that is contained within the service and fu nding agreemen ts. Mr.

Gll lesham mer : Well, the haphazard fundin g is certainly a problem of the past, and we have been able to add considerable funds for shelters. The situation has stabilized in a very positive way with that incr ease of some 47 percent in fundi ng over the last two years. However, there still may be a small defi cit with two of the shelters, and we are hoping that the department, the branch can work with those shelters, and that defic its will be a ve ry small problem at the en d of the year. Mr.

Alco ck: The Minis ter referenced earlier the relationsh ip between the Gove rn men t and the boards, and how the boards are responsible for

243 1 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA December 3, 1990 these defic its. Is there any organ ized trainin g program for boards? Mr. Gll lesham mer : That is something that is in the formative stages, and we have talked about that last day as we ll as earlier today. The boards, some of them requir e assistance, and I in dicated a couple of days ago that assistance, we think, is available here in the province without boards having to travel a long way to get that sort of expertise.

I have been talking to some of the individuals that provide service within this department, and have encour aged them to seek assistance whether the board would serve a day care, or a Child and Family Services agency, or one of these shelters. lt seems to me that, with the kind of money that we are putting into the system, it would be a sad thin g if portions of the system, if agencies failed because of board decisions that were not in formed decisions. If we can help in some way to make boards fu nction better-and we got in to this the other day.

I referenced an acquaintance of mine who worked, for many years, with the Man itoba Association of School Trustees and, at this point in time, his fu ll-time work, as he chooses it, is to work with boards, whether it be a Child and Family Services board, a school board, a muni cipal board, or a credit un ion board. The Agency Relations Bur eau is something that got up and running jus t a few months ago, and we would hope that throu gh this vehicle that we can provide some board training for boards of this sort. Mr.

Alcoc k: As the Min ister referenced it, it is an important area in that we use boards to mediate between Gove rn men t and the communi ty and to reflect the values of a local communi ty and the provision of certain services, and they play a very valuable role in that way. At the same time, as the size and comple xity of programs in crease, the responsi bilities that they take on, sometimes without being aware of it, are qu ite substanti al. Changes in the federal legislation relative to not-for-profits has placed boar d memb ers at risk.

Of ten boar d members are not aware of the risks that they do un dertake when they become members of these boards, as most people become members out a sense of commu ni ty service . I think it is incum bent up on the department to see that some trainin g is provided on an ongoing basis to these boards. The Mini ster is now telling me that Agenc y Relations, in addition to the developmen t of the agreements, is now responsi ble for deve loping the board training program. Deve lopment and delivery of the board training, or ju st developmen t of the board training? Mr.

Gll lesham mer: They will be overse eing that fu nc tion. Mr. Alco ck: Within this area, becaus e I know there were some funds made available relative to child abuse, at least the past years, to train boards of the Child and Family Services agencies. Within this

section , are there fu nds available cu rrently for boards to access training services? Mr. Gll lesham mer : No. Mr. Alco ck: Have their been in the past? Mr. Gll leshammer : I am told there have not been. Mr. Alco ck: Without delvi ng too deeply into futur e bu dgets, given the priority that the Min ister has placed on this, is this something that will simply be an additional staff func tion of the departmen t of Agenc y Relations, or is it the department's in tention to see that some funds are available so boards can access training? Mr.

Gll leshammer : Well, you are right that we have not got into future Estimates as yet, but I can tell you that- * (21 50) An Honour able Membe r: We will be there soon. Mr. Gll lesham mer : Well, we will be there soon, certainly. I can tell you it is a priority with me and I think it is a small in vestment that has to be made by someone to make boards work and have them suc ceed . I think it is something that boards will have to look at and that Governmen t will have to look at. Mr. Alco ck: Okay. If we can ju st move on to the fou r fam ily centres, what portion of their total budge ts do these grants represent?

Mr. Gllle shammer: We are assu min g that the Memb er is refe rencin g the women' s resou rce cen tres, and our fu nding is between 50 and 75 percent of their total budget. Mr. Alock : Now, is it the in tention of the department to sign service and funding agr eeme nts with these centres? Mr. Gll le shammer: That is no t our perce ived priority at this time. Mr. Alco ck: What sort of accou ntability structure is in place cu rrently then for the centres that are funded, the four fu nded centres.

December 3, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 2432 Mr. Gllle shammer : They give statistics on a monthly basis, and they report on their financial affairs on a quar terly basis. Mr. Alco ck: Is there a service relationship between these fo ur resou rce centres and the Department of Family Ser vices people? Mr. Gll lesh ammer : I guess the answer is, not really, that they are given a gener al pu rpose grant to provide service . Mr. Alcock : Is there a specific description of the services, or do they vary from centre to centre ? I mean, are they arrived at becaus e of some decision on the part of the departmen t, or are they simply historic? Mr. GIIIeshammer: Their history plays some

part in what it is they do, but gener ally the service that they provide is cou ns ellin g, in formation and ref erral, communi ty deve lopmen t, public educ ation an d outreach work. Mr. Alcock: When the Minis ter indica tes that the provision of agreeme nts with these agencies is not a priority, is that simply because he does not have concerns about the stability of the organizations, or is it because these agencies are not a priority of the department? Mr. Gll lesham mer: I do not want the Member to misrepresent what I said.

I think the priority, in terms of service and funding agreemen ts at this time, is with the people who operate the shelters and this is front -line work that is being done and I think it is important that we develop a relationship with the shelters and their service, and our funding which is going to maintain their existence. Mr. Al cock: One of the emerging issues -it is in teresting when you look at the development of the literature and un derstanding in these fie lds.

Some time ago there was a lot of work done that established a rather direct relationship between early childhood physical abuse and later acts of violenc e, and a great deal of concern aboutthe ways in which we in tervened with this with children , and I read recently some studies done by people, both in the States and by one, Dr. Col in Ross, I believe it is here. I believe he works out of St. Boniface Hospital as a psychiatrist.

He has done a fair bit of work on the relationship between abuse and mental illness in wom en, and I am won der ing if there is a relationshi p between the division and the Men tal Health Directorate, or what sort of services are provided to women through the Mental Health Directorate, co-ordinated by this division? Mr. Gll leshammer: Yes, this de partmen t is primarily providing supp orts for wife abuse and child abus e, and as such is not intertwined in a way with men tal health, such as the Member is refe rring to.

But I can tell you through the good work of the Minis ter of Health and an in itiative that was taken by his depa rtmen t and three others-1 did have breakfast with Dr. Ross last Thu rsday, and there was work being done on the whole area of Satan ism, and a conference that Dr. Ross spoke at. But as far as the Member's qu estion is concerned we have not through this branch got into the type of research that the Member is refer encing. Mr.

Alcock: I am not so mu ch refe rencing or sugges ting that this oper ating division shou ld nec essarily be un dertaking the research. lt is simply that, like in a numb er of areas there are issues that arise, treatment in terventions that are reques ted, and this de partment exi sts in an organiz ational relationship with the Department of Health relative to commu ni ty mental health. At least, it has field staff in the same offices, supervis ed by regional directors that are accou ntable to both departments, if I recall the earlier discussions we had when we looked at the departmental organizational chart.

I guess what I am hearing from the Minis ter is that there is not at this poin t work un der way to fo cus or to co-ordinate the delivery of services from that division throu gh to this service . Mr. Gllle shammer: We are not in that sort of co-or dina ted relations hip at the field level, but cer tainly manage men t in the de partmen ts do discus s these issues and have some dialogue over them. Mr. Alcock : lt is interesting, jus t an observation and I am going to end this

section with it, that this is a system that is very muc h in the devel opmen tal stages. Bringin g to bear som e of those other services will be extremely important over the years , and I would be in terested in hearing-because we never really resolved that. We talked about bou ndary issues, and we talked about the organiz ational structure of the departmen t back some week s ago. We never really have resolved that issue between Men tal Health and Children's Services. I am in terested to see how it gets resolved in this division and would en cou rage the Minis ter to look for ways to better co-ordinate the provision of services to people who requir e it.

2433 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 3, 199( *

(2200) Mr. Gllle shammer: I am pleased the Member recognizes that we are in an area of an emerging un derstanding of these problems and services that are emerging. This is why I think it is so important that we stabilize the system so we can in fact deliver this basic service . Probably no thing comes to min d qu icker than the whole idea of wife abuse shelters lt is an issue because of the publi city gene rated through the campaign and the awareness that has gene rated across the provi nce wher eby many, many co mmuni ties ar e com ing for ward and wa nt committees.

They want crisis offi ces, they want second stage housing, they want shelters. I think what I have been saying is that we really have to not only stabilize, but consolidate what we are doing and do what we are doing well before we start into a real expansi on mode here. There has been a fa ir expansion in that system over the last fo ur or five years. A lot of the issues around abuse are gaining a lot of publ icity and public awareness.

I think it is important that we under stand those issues, un derstand the root causes and be able to provide, first and for emost, protection, but also in the long term, hopefull y some solutio ns to that problem as well. The Member has referenced Mental Health, and I think that a Jot of the problems in this area are very, very complicated. lt is important that we get a good kno wledge of the perpetrators of these offe nses and provide the best services we possibly can for the citizens in our province . Mr. Alco ck: I certainly su pport the Min ister in that.

I would jus t point out one thing as I am trying to un derstand this as the Min ister was talking. We have commu nity Mental Health that operates in local com muni ties and del iver s some form of services. And certainly-these are adult s-a s they requ ire or identify a need , there wou ld be a desire to access services. We have workers who are working in all the regions who are identified as Family Servic e worke rs, althou gh we are no t certain, precisely, what the range of services are they provide.

We have committees in communi ties, we have shelters in communi ties, we have In come Secu rity providing services. In a less direct way, certainly, we have an in volve men t with Corrections and, I presu me, the edu cation system. There are an awful lot of people in volved in delivering services. I presume on the In come Secu rity side, we have muni cipal boards and such. lt ju st strikes me we might fi nd some broader su pport for some of these communi ties with a little better co-ordi na tion among all those services. Mr.

Gll lesham mer : Well, I agree and I can tell you I come from a very small commun ity in western Mani toba and these prof essionals are well known to one another. They do interact prof essionally and on many occasions you see them on the same panels and working with home and school associations and the like, and I think that there is recognition out there that service providers have to be brough t together from time to time to co-ordinate their work because in many ins tances they are working with the same clien ts.

While I canno t tell you whether that is generally true across the province , I can tell you in the region that I come from there are opportun ities for these prof essionals to get together. Whether it should be more fo rmalized or no t is open to con jectur e. Mr. Alcock : Jus t a final commen t then. I am also very pleased to see the fun ding for the Elder Abuse Resource Cen tre. I think that is an in teresting first move . I think A and 0 is an appropriate fa cility to in itiate such a service.

I would hope, I wou ld think also that this is an appropriate departmen t to deliver those services and develop them and I wou ld hope that we would see them in to the futur e more generally available throu ghout the province . I look forward to revisiting this line in another few months. Mr. Gll lesham mer: Well, I would thank the Member for his support. Ms. Barrett : I have one que stion and one comment. My qu estion is one I forgot to ask earlier.

The 47 percent that the Minis ter has men tioned on several occasions, I am wonderi ng if the Min ister cou ld break that down to a percentage by year and what those percentages are made up of, is it what percentages in in crease in operating grants, and what percentages in in crease in per diems? Mr. Gll leshamm er: I have every confidence we could provide that for you tomorrow afterno on. Ms. Barrett : I certainly have every confi dence , too, because the numb er itself has certainly been broadly broadcast, so I am sur e that the figu res that make up that numb er are readily available. Mr.

Gl lle shamm er: Yes, you are correct, it has been widely broadcast and I think I have even men tioned it myself.

December 3, 1990 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2434 Ms. Barrett : I have been talking, in the House and in these Estimates several times, about my concern about a stable funding base and an adequ ate fu nding base. An analogy flew into my mind that I mu st share with the Min ister before we leave this section. When he was discussing the boards and their respo nsibil ity and their requiremen ts to implemen t the policies and the program of the agencies, the analogy that springs to min d is the Titanic, that the boards are similar to the captain.

The captain of the Titanic was, by all accou nts, a very experienc ed well-respected member of his profe ssion . No qu arrel with his backgrou nd or his abilities, but no amoun t of additional training cou ld have saved that ship, as it tur ns out, because its design was fau lty. The design I sort of have is analogous to the funding form ula for shelters, and the idea that this is adequ ate fu nding . So my analogy is, stretched though it may be, that the boards can be as trained, as objective, as un derstanding and as competent as they possibly can be.

I wou ld sugge st probably most of them are on that side rather than not being well versed and able to deal with the problems that faced them, but as long as they have an in adequa te funding form ula, they will go down in the ice flow every single time. There is nothing they can do about it. Mr. Gll lesha mmer: That idea that flew in to you r min d perhaps has not completely crystalized yet. I was of the un derstanding thatthe Titanic was a good ship, but it jus t happened to hit an iceberg.

I do not think the problems that we foresee with shelters are of that magnitude. * (221 0) We have put the type of money into the system that has led to a tremendous suc cess with Osborne House. We have put a greater percentage of money in to the system with some of the other shelters and the per diems have in creased fr om, in the area of $6 and $1 3 to $45.00. I mean, I know the Member recognizes that we have done a tremen dous job in that area, and that this is a massive in crease in fun ding.

So I think we can see what the problems are with the shelters, and we are working with them and will continue to work with them. We have made a commitment to review the fu nding . I think we are on the right track with the shelters, and I fully expect that we are going to su cceed . I fee l very confi den t about that. Mr. Deputy Chai rman : Item 4.(

e) Family Disput e Servic es: (1 ) Salaries $408,600--p ass;

(2) Other Expenditu res $21 3 ,200 -p ass ;

(3) External Agencies $2,91 9,600--p ass. Item 4.(

f) Children' s Special Servi ces : (1 ) Salaries $257 ,500 -T he Honourable Mem ber for Wellington . Jus t one momen t, please . If the Honour able Minis ter would introduce the new staff member. Mr. Gll lesha mmer : Yes, I would like to introduce Mr. Brian Law , Director, Chil dren's Special Services, who has joined us at the table. Ms. Barrett : I do not have a whole lot of ques tions about Specia l Services. Most of my qu estions will be for informa tion.

I do want to put on the record, though , from the page that deals with Children' s Special Services in the draft annual report, that I could not agree more with the last sentence in the first paragraph: These goals are achieved by developing serv ices within the communi ty based on the princi ple of the least restrictive alternative. ! heartily commend Children' s Special Ser vices for espousing that goal. lt wou ld appear from their program description that they have been able to do some good work in reaching that goal.

Knowing very little about the program, I look atthe numb er of people that are doing this work, and marvel particu larly at the fact that there are onl y three Profe ssi onal/T echnic al people . lt would appear from the list of things that are accomplished by this division, that they do a remarkable job. I guess my fir st question is again the same one : Who are these Professional/T echn ical people, and what are their backgrounds? Mr. Gl ll esham mer: Of those four in dividuals: one is a social worker; one is a chartered accoun tant; one has a B.A. in social work; and the other a B.A. in political science.

Pardon me, that was a B.A. in sociology. Ms. Barrett : May I ask which one is the manager? Mr. Gl ll eshammer: The indi vidual with the B.A. in sociology. Ms. Barrett : How long has this division been in existence? Is this a longstand in g division, or is it fairly recent in origin? Mr. Gl ll esham mer: I am told, for jus t over five years . Ms. Barrett : lt has had some time to develop. I am

2435 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA December 3, 199< basically going throu gh the annua l gen eral report to ask my qu estions here. lt says in the second par ag rap h: Add itional care and supp ort for high-need fam ilies requir ing specialized or in tensive assistance to care for their children is also available. I am won dering if the Minis ter can explain how that is available. ls that through the staff of the Children' s Special Ser vices ac cessing other ex ternal programs, or do they provide this assistance? How is that done? Mr.

Gll lesham mer : Yes, maybe one of the things that would help is that there are 21 field staff that also work within this department and they enable individual fam ilies to access respite care, sup plies, equipmen t, some work with child deve lopment, home renova tions.

Maybe I can even jus t tell you that, as an MLA so metimes in dividual cases are brought forward that way, and thefirst time I became aware of this a cou ple of years ago was a reques t from a communi ty that sought assistance for a couple of you ng children who were deemed to be in need. lt worked its way up to the point where this branch was able to deal with it. Ms. Bar rett : That 21 additional staff certainly does make the work of this division more und erstandable. Where are those staff located in the Estimates? Mr. Gll leshammer : They are located un der Rehab and Communi ty Living field staff. Ms.

Barrett : Do the Children' s Special Ser vices people, are they responsible for these staff, or do they work in co-ordination with them, what is the line of authority between this division and those field staff? Mr. Gll leshamm er: They are admin istered under Rehabilitation and Community Living, but they have program responsibil ity which involves them with Children' s Special Services. Ms. Barrett : So do they have two bosses or one boss? Mr.

Gll leshammer: Well, I am not sur e that I want to answer it in that way, but they are responsible to Rehabili tation and Communi ty Living and the adminis trative work is done throu gh there, but as field staff they have program del ivery which probably cuts across a numb er of branches in that part of their responsibilities are to you ng children who perhaps have special needs. *

(2220) Ms. Barrett : I assume then that means these 21 field staff are the people who actu ally deliver services through the eight regional off ices, that is the mann er of service de livery then? Mr. Gl llesham mer: Yes, that is true and their work may not be restricted to working with children who would come un der contact with this branch. Ms. Barrett : So those 21 field staff have other re sponsibil ities and this is par t of their responsi bility? Mr. Gll lesham mer: I would in dicate that there are ano ther 1 00 staff or so who work for Rehabilitation and Com mu ni ty Li ving.

These 21 wou ld have specific responsibil ity for children un der Children' s Special Services. Ms. Barrett : Children with disabilities, what kind of disabilities? Are they physical largely, or mental, or is there a range of disabilities that are provided for here? Mr. Gll lesham mer : There is a range of disabilities, which cou ld be categorized as physical, men tal, langu age , hearing and vision. Ms. Bar rett : Jus t about the whole range of disabilities then are covered by this division . Mr. Gll lesham mer: Yes, I believe you are correct. Ms. Barrett : Thank you.

The training, research and eval ua tion componen ts, is this provided by the profession al/technic al people, or are the fi eld staff invol ved in this as well? Mr. Gll leshammer: I am told that the School of Social Work at the uni versity are contracted to provide the training and development. Ms. Barrett : Thank you , and can the Mini ster show me the budget line where that contract is fou nd? Mr. Gll lesh ammer: Yes, it would be found un der Other Expendi tur es, Other Operating. Ms. Barrett : Thank you , and to whom is this training deli ve red ?

Is that the field staff or to the profe ssion al/technic al people within the Special Services? Mr. Gll lesham mer: That training is offered to the 21 fi eld staff that we referenced earlier. Ms. Barr ett: Thank you , and the research and ev alua tion activities of the Children's Special Services, are those also contracted out? Mr. Gll leshammer: Yes, it is contracted out to the same department. Ms. Barrett : Thank you. I am wonder ing if it is

December 3, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2436 possible to get a list of the kinds of re search, evalua tion and training. Things that have been done this last year for exam ple, or the last coup le of years un der this division. Mr. Gll leshammer : We would make every effort to provide that for you in the not too distant future . Ms. Barrett : Thank you . I appreciate that. lt sou nds like a very interesting idea. lt also states in the annual gener al report that the caseload in crease was approximately 14 percent over the previous year. Is there a breakout of that in crease ?

Is there a reason for that? Is it higher need identification or more people ju st comin g in? That would appear to be a large in crease year over year. Mr. GIIIeshammer : Probably the ans wer would be, jus t a better public awareness. An awareness that man ifests itself in day cares, in preschool nur sery schools, and with the public. Perhaps eve n some of that is coming forward from areas of the province that maybe are accessing more service at this time than they did before. In essence , public awareness that services are available. Ms.

Barrett : Has there bee n a particular pu blic awareness campaign undert aken in this regard? Or is there some other reason for in creased pu blic awareness? Mr. Gllle shammer: Ther e has no t been a cam paign, but there se ems to be a ge ner al acceptance that awareness in the public has grown. Ms. Barr ett : With the 14 percent incr ease in caseloa d- the 21 staf f com plement, has it changed? Or is that 14 percent inc rease dealt with by the regional staff? Or is it in crease of children going to other local services? How is it spread out? Mr.

GIIIeshamm er: There has not been an in crease in staff at this point. The workload has simply been integrated in to the workload of the existing staff. Ms. Barrett : This is in addition to their already existing workload which incl udes other cases, other than Children's Special Ser vic es. Is that my under standing? Mr. Gll lesham mer : I may have misled you bef ore , unin tention ally. These 21 people are working with children that access this Child ren's Special Services. I indi cated there were ano ther, up wards of 1 00 staff that work for Rehabil itation and Communi ty Living.

These 21 , their respons ibilities are basically with children that have the type of diff icu lties that we enu ncia ted earlier. Ms. Bar rett: Those 21 staff deal with the Children' s Speci al Servic es? That is their job, to deal with service provision for these children? *

(2230) Mr. Gll lesha mmer: That is correct. Ms. Bar rett: Their caseload is 14 percent higher than it was in the previous year. How does that correspond to case load in creases with the other 1 00 staff people that you men tioned? Mr. Gll lesham mer : I think it is fa ir to say in many of the branches and in the department in total, that the workload has been in creasing in Social Allowanc es, in Child and Family Servic es, in Children's Special Services, that generally there has been an up take in the num bers that we are serving. Ms.

Barrett : So the Minis ter is saying this is not out of line with in creases with the other 1 00 workers in that division? Mr. Gll lesham mer : No, it is not out of line. I am saying there is a tremendous challenge in the social services that are provided by this department and accessed by between 13 0,0 00 and 15 0,000 Man itobans who come in to contact with this department. Ms. Barrett : Do the staff do mostly assessmen t and referral , or do they also do the actual programming with children, or is it a combination of both? Mr.

Gll lesham mer : We provide as many services as we possibly can to assist these children. In some cases we have to contact external agencies such as St. Amant or the Society for Man itobans with Disabil ities to beco me in volved with these in dividuals. Ms. Bar rett : Could the Min ister explain what the Mobile Therapy Program is? Mr. Gll leshamme r: This is physical therapy and occu pational therapy in remote areas where that type of profe ssional service is no t readily available. So this is offered under this termin ology of mobile therapy. Ms.

Bar rett : In the Su ppleme ntary Estimates it is called Ide ntified Regions. Could you identify those regions that are serviced by the Mobile Therapy Program? Mr. Gll leshammer : These are areas of greater Mani toba that I think the Member is fam iliar with. There is Norman, Thompson, ln terlake, Westman and the Parkland region of the provinc e.

2437 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA December 3, 199< Ms. Barrett : I am aware of those regions. I was un der the assu mption that this mobile therapy program was to regions that were not serviced by region al of fic es. lt sou nd s lik e some of the regions-let me back up here. The mobile therapy is not in all of the regions, it is jus t in the ones that you listed there, the most outlyi ng ones. Is that because in the regional offices there, there are not PTs and OTs available? Mr. Gll leshamme r: That is esse ntially correct. There are no PTs and OTs available.

As a result, there are contracts to do this work in northern and other areas of the province . Ms. Bar rett: I am sur e there are many more qu estions to ask, and I am also sur e that the Honour able Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) will ask all of them. I just have a couple of questions on the Estimates figures.

Using the Annua l General Report versus the Adjusted Vote in the Estimates, the Actual Grants and Transfer Paymen ts, which I am assu min g equa tes to the Financial Assistance and External Agency column, Financial Assistance and External Agenc y in the Estimates, and Grants and Transfer Paymen ts in the Annual Gener al Report, there is over $2 million differential between the Actual and the Estimates. Am I reading that correctly, No. 1 ? And No. 2, if that is correct, can you explain why there is that in credible decrease in expendi tures? Mr.

Gll lesha mmer: There was a transfer of fun ds from Rehab and Commu nity Living branch in to this branch . Ms. Barrett : There was a transfer of money into Children' s Special Services? Although the actual amou nt in the draft annua l report is $2 million less than the estimated amount. Mr. Gl lle sh ammer : The last year's pri nted Estimates do not reflect that in excess of $2 million that was transferred from Rehab and Commu nity Living in to this de partment. Ms. Barrett : I am sorry to be so obtuse, but the Adjusted Vote is $2.5 million more in the Estimates book.

The Adjusted Vote '89-90 is $2.5 million more than the comparable figu re for the actual '89-90 in the annual gener al report. Mr. Gl lleshammer: lt appears to be the same scenario as you asked about before , that there is a diffe rence betwe en the printed vote and the Adjusted Vote, and it is because of a transfer of $2.5 million from one branch to ano ther branch. Ms. Barrett : Thank you. No fu rther qu estions. *

(2240) Mr. Alco ck: Let us jus t start with a little clarification here, this division funds the St. Amant Cen tre? Mr. Gll leshamm er: That is correct. Mr. Alcoc k: And on the grants organ ization, we show an amoun t of $1 50,000.00. Can the Min ister tell us fi rst, before we get in to the details of that particular grant, is that the only grant that St. Amant receives from the department? Mr. Gll leshamm er: The grant of $1 50,000 that the Member refere nc es was a grant for deficit relief for 19 89-90 . Mr. Alco ck: My qu estion though to the Min ister was, is this the only grant that St.

Amant receives from the de partmen t? Mr. Gll lesham mer: St. Amant accesses in excess of $1 3 million through this department. Mr. Alco ck: I am aware of that, the ques tion is, how much of it comes in the form of a grant, how mu ch in the fo rm of fe es? I am led to believe by this grants list, given that St. Amant is not on it, with the exception of this $1 50,000, is that all of the funding for St. Amant no w fee s, or is there a grant component to it? Mr. Gllle shammer: The $1 3-plus million that I referenced a momen t ago is per diems. Mr. Alco ck: So then St.

Amant receives no core grant funding whatsoever? Mr. Gll le shammer : Maybe I co ul d answer it this way. The money that is accessed from this area is per diems. There are grants that come from ano ther area of this de partment. Mr. Alco ck: What area? Mr. Gll leshammer : lt is for a preschool program un der the Child Day Care Bran ch. Mr. Alco ck: Yes I am sorry, I recognize that one, I mean for the core sup port of the people who live in this centre . I think the Min ister has answered the ques tion, he is saying that there is no grant, that it is all fe e-ba sed . Mr. Gll leshammer: Yes, it is all per diem .

Mr. Alcoc k: Now I note in the notes to this

section there, it says for approximately 12 9 children and 1 28 adu lts. Am I correct in assum ing that the 12 8 adult s that are refe renced there are residen ts of St. Amant Centre?

December 3, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2438 Mr. Gll lesham mer: Yes. Mr. Alco ck: Why are we funding adu lts throu gh Children's Special Ser vices and not through the earlier Commu ni ty Division? Mr. Gll leshammer: When this branch first started most of the residen ts were children and some of them have passed the age of 18 , but the fu nding has been retained within this branch. Mr. Alco ck: Why then are these 12 8 adult s fu nded in a manner that is different from the other adu lts this department sup ports? Mr.

Gll lesham mer : I am not sure which adu lts the Member is ref erring to, but the clients who live at St. Amant were funded by this branch prior to them gaining adult status, and maybe the Member would jus t clarify what he was ref erring to? *

(2250) Mr. Alc ock: We ll, it is true that a depe ndent individual who is receiving supp ort from the depar tment would receive supp or t throu gh children' s services of some sort, either through Special Children's, as in the case of people in the care of this division, or through Children's Services, Child and Family Supp ort, but in the case of one grou p, when they reach the age of majority they transition in to Adul t Services.

The Min ister will recall we had a considerable discu ssion of that when we were on that particular division, and they access fu nding in the way in which the Min ister described in some detail to me, the $1 5 to $1 20 a day program, and there is funding available to support them and a range of grou p homes, et cetera, et cetera. Yet we have chosen not to include these 12 8 adu lts in that particular service stream. That has been a choice. I am jus t wondering why it was made that way? Mr. Gll leshamm er: The differenc e, I supp ose, is that these in dividuals remain in an ins titutional living setting at St.

Amant, as opposed to commu nity living. I know the Member is aware that there are two other ins titu tions as wel l, that come under Rehabilitation and Commu nity Living. In this case , they have resided at St. Amant and the decision, with the parents, has been for them to remain there. Mr. Alco ck: Well, let us go at it this way. Are there any other children at these other two ins titutions? Are there any children at all at the other two in stitutions? Mr. Gll lesham mer: There is one person at MDC at this time who has not reached the age of 18 . Mr. Alcock : Now approximately 50 percent of the residents at St.

Amant Centre today are adu lts, and I notice in the annual reports, nei ther in the draft annual report nor previous annual reports, are there any popula tion figur es given for St. Aman t. I wonder if the Minis ter could provide popula tion figures, children and adu lts, for St. Amant going back five years ? Mr. Gll lesham mer: In 19 85-86, there were 201 children and 77 adul ts, for a total of 278. In 1 986-87, there were 19 8 children and 75 adults, for a total of 273 . In 19 87-88, there were 16 9 children and 10 7 adu lts, for a total of 273 (sic).

In 1 988-89, there were 14 8 children and 12 3 adul ts, for a total of 271 . In 19 89-90 , there are 13 0 children and 13 8 adu lts, for a total of 268. Mr. Alco ck: I thank the Minis ter for that and give n that in formation is available, it might be use ful to include it in the annual report of the departmen t so that it is available to the public in futu re years. I wou ld jus t like to make an observation on this, because it is in teresting as you note the fu nding policy in this department. We seem to fu nd thin gs for organ izational effi cien cy as opposed to program delivery reasons.

I mean, we are funding adu lts in a children's faci lity becaus e that is where they live, as opposed to whether or not that is the program stream that they access. The other thing that is in teresting is we see over those five years a drop in the num ber of children. Now when you go back to the discussion we had about MD C and we talked about how deins titutionalization had been brough t to bear on that organiz ation, and that we had dropped the num bers of adult s in the care of that ins titution, everybody was qu ite suppor tive of the actions the department had taken. Except when we look down at St.

Am ant now, we see that the numb er of ad ult s in St. Amant has gone from 77 to 13 8. So the ques tion is have we truly dei nstitutionaliz ed, or have we simply shifted the location for a numb er of adult s from MDC to St. Amant? That seems to be the development that has taken place. Mr. Gll lesha mmer: I think the Member would have to look and see who these indi viduals are and as these children, in terms of numb er, are reduc ed at St. Amant and the nu mber of adult s is increased , it is my un derstanding that we are talking about one and the same person, thatthey are attaining the age of majority.

2439 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA December 3, 1990 Jus t fu rther to what the Member said a momen t ago, I think if there is an area of the departmen t that you re ally ha ve to look at in dividuals on a case-by-case basis, it is this area of the department. Appropriate placemen t is something that you have to look very, very carefully at. I think that you will find that this inc rease in the numb er of adu lts is simply by children reaching the age of majority. Mr. Alcock : I have no dou bt that is the case. I am sur e that is exactly why they are there.

In the past, is it not true that a portion of these children reaching the age of majority would have then moved-if we go back some distance in the past-to MDC? Mr. Gl llesham mer: I know from my visit to both MDC and St. Amant that these are in dividuals that are difficu lt to place outside of the in stitution. I think that part of the picture of placin g these people has to do with the dealings with the family in volved. I am glad the Member clarified that for me. I thought he was su ggesting that children were leaving St. Am ant and being replaced by adu lts from som ewhere else.

I now un derstand that he recogniz es that these are the same people. *

(2300) Mr. Alcock : What I am trying to sort out with the Minister is that we make mu ch-and the Member for Welling ton (Ms. Barrett), refe renced it as she began her remarks- about the su pport for the least restrictive en vironment. We talk a lot about the desi re to move people out of large congregate centr es in to smaller, more appr opriate, more commun ity-appropriate kinds of settings.

Yet what see ms to be occurring here is that, while the num bers at MDC look terrifio-"terrific" maybe is too strong a word-but they look better than they did in terms of reducing the number of adu lts in the care of that particu lar faci lity, we see the reverse is true at St. Amant. In fact, we are allowing them to maintain adu lts in that fa cility, and so we are, in a sense , creating a distortion in the reporting.

Where earlier on in this Estimates procedur e we looked at 584 or 577 adul ts in the care of MDC as being a positive thing, certainly down from the 700-odd in earlier years, we note close to a doublin g of the adul ts at St. Am ant. They are not necessarily being moved in to commun ity care ; they are simply being maintained in a different ins titution. That is not deinstitut ionaliz ation. Mr. Gll leshammer: You are right. If they are being main taine d in an in stitution , it is not dei nstitutional ization. This is one of the areas that the worki ng group on Co mmu nity Living is examining.

Rather than portraying this as some trend , I think we are simply looking at you ng indi viduals who are turning into adult status. The fam ily, in ma ny cases, is saying that there is not an appropriate commu nity placemen t for them, and one of the options is for them to remain at St. Am ant Centre un til that appropriate place is fo und. I can tell you from visiting there that we are talking about some prof oundly handicapped individua ls. Placemen t of these in dividuals is difficult. In some cases I suspec t the fa mily is saying, this in our mind is an appropriate placement for them.

Again I would say that the Working Group on Commu ni ty Living is going to address this and examine the placemen t in in stitutions and hopefully come forward with some recommen dations. Mr. Alco ck: I have visited St. Amant on many occasions, and I am well aware of the popula tion that is served there.

The fact remains that, desp ite a mis sion statemen t which talks about le ast re strictive en viron men t, desp ite a stated policy that talks about placing people in to the commu nity, in fact the numb er of adu lts in ins titutional care has gone up in the last fo ur years, not down. lt would seem that the policies of this depar tmen t are not working exceptional ly well in this particular area. Mr. Gll lesham mer: I gave the Member the total numb er as well as the breakout between children and adults. When you look at the totals in the ins titutions in the province the total numb er has been reduc ed.

We talked about this with MDC as well. Really I think you, in reference to St. Amant Centre, would have to study in some detail the actu al age of the clien ts we are talking about, and I su spect you would find that the age variation in St. Amant has not changed a great deal. I think it refl ects the dif ficu lty in finding appr opr iate placement. That in essence is what I am saying that the Working Group on Communi ty Living is going to be examining. Mr. Alco ck: We will examine the age distribution in a few momen ts. The fact is that if you add the adu lts in St.

Amant to the adul ts at MDC, the total nu mber of adu lts in ins titutional care has gone up over the last four years, not down as the departmen t's mission would

December 3, 1990 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 2440 seem to indicate. That is very simple arithmetic and I would in vite the Mini ster to do it. As far as the situation at St. Amant goes, in 19 85-86, according to the figu res the Minis ter gave us, there were about two and a half times as many children as adu lts in the care of that particu lar fa cility, and today it is one to one.

That wou ld indi cate some signi ficant change in the policy relative to that particular ins titution , a policy change that I fear might be more related to the desire to make use of that facility and to maintain the fu nding base for it than necessari ly the most appropriate use of those resour ces to serve children in the communi ty, because we do seem to have been success ful in finding greater opportunities for children, either supp orting them in their own home or in forms of foster care in the communi ty. That I think is a very positive direction. (Mrs.

Rosemary Vodrey, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) The numb er of children in the period the Mini ster referenced has gone down from 201 to 13 0, and that would strike me as a positive deve lopmen t and probably reflective of greater communi ty sup ports to fam ilies and the greater ability of the foster care system to respond to it. The fact is we seem to have fa iled on the adu lt side. Mr. Gll lesham mer : You know, I think what we are saying is that we have been more suc cessful with the numb ers with children and less su ccessful in terms of adults. I do not think we have fai led.

The total numb er that were in stitutional ized at St. Amant and MDC in 19 85-86 was 942 indi viduals. The total nu mber institutional ized in 19 89-90 is 851 . So over that five years the num bers have come down. The change in status from children to adu lts with certain clients there, has made it a little more diffi cult for commu nity placemen t, but it is something I am sur e staff are working on. Again, I would say that the Working Group on Commu nity Living is going to address this whole problem of examinin g the ins titutions vis-a-vis communi ty placement. Mr.

Alco ck: Has the Working Grou p on Commu nity Living been specifical ly instru cted to review the program at St. Amant with an eye to determin ing whether more of those in dividuals could be served in the communi ty? Mr. Gllle shammer: They are look ing at the ins titutions where ind ividuals are placed, and we are awaiting their report in the new year. Mr. AI cock: Is the policy direction though, the ins truction given to that group, to find greater alternatives or to simply review the existing system? Mr. Gll leshammer : Their mandate is to review the existing system and come forward with alternatives. Mr.

AI cock: I will reserve my comment on that for a momen t. Let us talk more about this age diff eren ce then. When the children who are in the care of St. Amant, are these children fully cost shared un der the Cana da Assistance Plan? Mr. Gll lesha mmer : I am told that is correct. Mr. Alco ck: Is there cost sharing available to them once they become adul ts? Mr. Gll lesham mer: Yes, I am told up to a certain level Canada Assistance payments are available. Mr.

Alco ck: When the Min ister says up to a certain level, then there would be some difference in the leve l of support through the Canada Assistance Plan for the adult s versus a child in the same faci lity. Can he tell us what the difference is? • (23 1 0) Mr. Gllle shammer: Yes , I am in formed that it changes from a 50-50 cost sharing to approximately two-thirds, one-th ird. Mr.

Alcock: Now the age of majority, that transition point from child to adu lt which we define commonly as age 18 , is not defi ned that way, at least was not defi ned that way un der the Canada Assistance Plan , as I recall. lt was age 21 . Is that still the case? Does the fu ll sharing continue to age 21 , or does it cease at age 18 and then we move to this two-thirds, on e-third? At what age does that change take place? Mr. Gllle shamm er: Ou r un de rstan ding is the change is at age 18 . Mr.

AI cock: Has there been a change in the Canada Assistance Plan in the last four or five years that would make this chan ge? Is there some written change that has provided this or is that the way the department is defi ning it? Mr. Gll lesham mer: The un derstanding is that is the way it has been defined in the past. Mr. Alcock: There is no 50-50 cost-sharing for individuals between 18 and 21 . Mr. Gll leshamm er: The cost-sharing that continues after age 18 is a third, two-thirds.

244 1 LEG ISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 3, 199( Mr. Alcoc k: I note that there is some discussion going on, perhaps we should await clarification. No clarifica tion? Mr. Gll lesham mer : There is no fu rther inform ation at this time. Mr. Alcoc k: What is the ratio, when the Min ister talked about the age breakdown, the people- the adu lts that are living there at the cu rrent time, are they within- they have five years here, are they within five or six years of age 18 ? Mr.

Gll leshamm er: The numb ers that I referenced for the Honour able Memb er as adu lts are categorized as young adults between the ages of 18 and 26. Mr. Alco ck: Then what happens post-age 26? Mr. Gll lesham mer : I am told there are some who exceed the age of 26, but the majority of the adu lts would be categorized as you ng adult s between the ages of 18 and 26. Mr. Alco ck: Is it the policy of the department now to have this situation continue where St. Amant will continue to serve in creasing numb ers of adu lts? Mr.

Gll leshamm er: As we indi cated not long ago, the Working Grou p on Commu nity Living is examining this, and we are awaiting a report from them in the new year where they are examining the individuals who are in ins titutions and looking at the issue of communi ty placemen ts. Mr. Alco ck: In coming back to the funding then for a minute, I should say I am profou nd ly disappointed to note this fai lur e in our ability to dei nstitutionalize adult s in this province . lt is qu ite counter the in formation that has been put out. let us come down to the funding for a bit now.

We fund this ins titution on a fee base system only. Can the Min ister tell us what the fee is? Mr. Gllle shammer: I ju st want to address the Membe r's commen t about the fai lur e of this system. I think that the numb ers that I gave the Member earlier that the popula tion in ins titutions, St. Amant and MDC, has been reduc ed by almost 1 00 in the last five years . Certainly we have not been as suc cessful as we would like to be, but I do not think that shoul d be categorized as a fa ilure.

We have in dicated that the Working Group on Commu nity living is an attempt to examin e the situation and to provide Gove rnmen t, throu gh this department, with some alterna tives. There are, I su spect, a variety of reasons why some of the clients have remained at St. Amant, and often one of the factors in determining placemen t is the parents. There are times where they would see this as the most appropriate placemen t. Having said that, I thin k we look forward ag ain to new ideas and ideas brought forward by the Wor king Gr ou p on Commu nity li ving.

In dir ect answer to the que stion the Member asked, the answe r is $1 42 per day. Mr. Alco ck: Well, ju st to deal with some of the Min ister's commen ts, I am ver y disappoin ted, fran kly. Ins titutions de mons trate a remarkable resilience and an ability to maintain a clien tele irrespective of the us eful ne ss or the necessity of that particular fa cility. We see consider able progress on the part of children. I think we will talk even tually about why some of that progress has achieved what astou nds me as the remarkable stability of the popula tion at St. Amant.

So despite all of our progress in providing alternatives for children, what we have simply done is switched that ins titution from predominantly a children' s ins titution now in to a mixed ins titution . So we have really made no progress in the institutional izing. I, fr ankly, was not aware that the difference was as great. I have had some indic ations of it. Un til the Min ister gave me the numb ers, I was not as aware that it was as profound as it is. I am saddened by that. I hope the grou p is success fu l. I hope there is a renewed thrust to deinstitutional ize.

I sus pect the staff in the division are not any happier about this than I am, frank ly. Now, the Min ister has give n us a fee base of $1 42.00. Is that attached to any particul ar occu pancy? ,.

(2320) Mr. Gll lesham mer : Yes, that per diem is based on approximately 98 percent occupancy. (Deput y Chairman in the Chair) Mr. Alco ck: What is occu pancy defi ned as, out of that ins tituti on? How many beds? Mr. Gll lesha mmer: There are some 268 beds. Mr. Alcock: 268 beds. So has there been a reduction in the numb er of beds available in that institution? I note that the 268 is the numb er that the Minis ter gave us for the registered occu pancy in '89-90 , but the year before that it was 271 , then 273 and then 278. Has there been an actual decrease in the physical space devoted to beds?

December 3, 19 90 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 2442 Mr. Glll esh ammer : Yes, there has been some reduction. Mr. Alco ck: Perhaps I shou ld ask it this way. What is the licen sed occu pancy as opposed to the fun ded occu panc y? Mr. Gllle shammer: I am told at this time the licens ed occupanc y is 268. Mr. Alcock: Okay, jus t before I forget it. I made a sugges tion that the Mini ster have that table he read out in cluded in the draft annual report. Is that something that he is prepared to do? Mr.

Gll leshamm er: I will see that the staff are remin ded of that and we will take you r sugg estion into serious consider ation. Mr. Alco ck: I thank the Minis ter for that. Can he explain the difference between the $1 42 per day rate at St. Am ant and, if memory serves me correctly which it has not been doing lately, the $1 08 to $1 1 0 rateatMDC? Mr. Gll lesham mer: The higher per diem costs are a reflection of the care needs of the clients that are at St. Amant Centre. Mr. Alcock: That is in teresting. You mean St. Am ant Centre now serves higher need clien ts than MDC, but younger age? Mr. Gll lesha mmer: Mr.

Depu ty Chairman, some of the clien ts have more medically complex concerns that have to be addressed, and with the you nger clien ts the staff-t o- client ratio is higher. Mr. Alco ck: We will come back to staff ratio in a momen t. Then is it the policy of the de partmen t to move more medically complex clients from MDC to St. Amant? Mr .GIIIesha mmer : I ind icated earlier thatthere was only one child at MDC, and I am indic ating now that some of the clients at St. Amant have a more medically complex situa tion. Mr. Alcock : Right, there is about a $30-a-day differe nce in the per diem rate.

When I asked the Minister what was that based on, he reference two thin gs. One was staff ratios which we will talk about in a minu te, but the other was that clien ts at St. Amant were more medically complex. As he has indi cated earlier a numb er of the clients at St. Amant grew up at St. Amant and have simply remaine d there. If St. Amant is better equ ipped to handle more •medically complex" clients than MDC, is it the departmen t's policy now to move more medically complex clien ts from MDC to St. Amant? Mr. Gll lesha mmer: No. Mr. Alco ck: Mr.

Depu ty Chairperson, I am jus ttrying to un derstand this sense of St. Amant's being better able to handle more medically complex cases. How do they get there? Is it ju st the luck of the draw? If you end up there as a child then you stay there. Mr. Gll lesha mmer : I believe that the numb er of children at St. Amant far outstrips the numb er of children at MDC. I would also in dicate that there are some historical reasons for the-difference in cost too, which relate to the backg roun d of these ins titutions. Mr. Alco ck: I suspect the Min ister is correct.

I su spect the difference in funding has more to do with that and to do with the staff ratio than it has to do with any dete rm ination about the me dical complexity of the people served there. What is the staff ratio at St. Amant? Mr. Gll lesha mmer: We do not have a def initive numb er for the Member at this time, but we will endeavo ur to provide that for him when we nex t meet. Mr. Alco ck: Thank you very much.

When I look at the numb ers here, based on what the Minis ter gave us, an occu pancy rate of 268 at 1 00 percent occupancy would give us an annual budget of about 13 million 800 and some thous and dollars. If the faci lity was 1 00 percent occupi ed it would provide a profit to the organiza tion of something ove r a qu arter of a million dollars. Wou ld that be a fair estimate of how these num bers work out? Mr. Gll lesham mer: I wonder if the Member cou ld repeat that. I had some difficu lty fo llowing what he was saying. Mr.

Alcock : I was jus t interested in both the fee structure-the $1 40 a day and the 98 percent occupancy rate on 268 beds. This is a relatively low turno ver popu lation, which I presu me is why we have a 98 percent occu pancy rate. If the facility was fully occup ied throughout the year, then presumably they would earn a profit of that 2 percent if they were 1 00 percent occu pied over the 98 percent they are funded for, which would give them a profit of some $200,000-plus.

They had a deficit of $1 50,000 in the past year, but am I right first t�n the assump tion that if they were to operate 1 00 percen t occupie d througho ut

2443 LEG ISL ATIVE ASS EM BLY OF MAN ITOBA December 3, 1990 the year, they would earn a profit of a little ove r $200,000.00? The simple ans wer is yes. Mr .GIIIeshammer : I know the Member is portraying this as a simple arithmetic problem, but the fact of the matter is that if they incu rred a higher occu pancy they may well have incr eased costs as well. Mr. Alc ock: Except they are 10 0 percent fu nded at 98 percent occupancy. I should say I am not disputing the policy at all. I think it is an appropriate policy for this faci lity.

I am jus t trying to get a sense of the size of the-and I suspec t the ins titution would be extremely rare for the in stitution to be 1 00 percent occu pied all year arou nd. *

(2330) I am not sug gesting that there is any thing improper about the policy. I jus t want to sort out why we have a funding policy that allows the ins titution to gener ate a modest overage, a modest profit, if you like, and it is a non-profit organ ization so these funds are going to the service of children; I am not sugges ting anything in appropriate. That being the case, I am trying to reconcile that with the deficit pick-up of $1 50,000.00. Mr.

Gll leshamm er: I think the Member is trying to indi cate that the ability to make a profit is there, and I can tell you , from meeting with a numb er of members of the board and their executive director and staff, that is not the picture that they portray. They have-a nd the Member has referenced that he has visited there many times and is qui te familiar with it-they have in dicated to us that they have a numb er of areas of need . I do not believe that we are looking at a profit- making ve ntu re as I think the Member is sugge sting.

Further to that, my under standing is that they have a greater deficit than the $1 50,000 that was referenced to help cover deficit. They also spoke to me of a n

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-1-37b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 1st hansardpdf 37b.pdf
Language	en
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